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Some Back Compat Problems For PS3
Via Opposable Thumbs at Ars Technica, the news at IGN that there are some annoying backwards compatibility issues with the PS3 and the PS2. Specifically, there are about 196 games that are experiencing issues. From the article: "In response to these issues, Sony's PR department pointed out that it, from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%. It was also good enough to point out that some people can put up with playing games that lack sound. Regardless of this somewhat arrogant response, an official statement issued at the PlayStation.com site states that Sony will fix the problems with a future system update, and may even resort to individual patches for certain titles. When this will happen has yet to be specified." Qj.net has a list of some of the problem games, with their specific issues. It sounds bad, but to put this in perspective I believe there are still far more PS2 games playable on the PS3 than there are Xbox games playable on the 360.
i wonder tho, why was the ps2 so good at playing ps1 games
so does that mean the other 800 or 900 work fine? i don't own a ps2 or ps3 - i own a gamecube, but when i go into a gamestop (or something similar) it feels like there are thousands of play station games out there, me i've just got to look for the little bitty gc section.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Who needs sound for guitar hero or DDR, seriously?
I remember reading recently that any PS2 hard drive based games like FFXI and some others will not run on the PS3 for now, but there is a future patch coming down.
"In response to these issues, Sony's PR department pointed out that it, from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%"
So Sony's PR department expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100% from the start.
Did Sony's PR department point out that backwards compatibility would be less than 100% from the start?
I'll admit I haven't read every PS3-related press release, but have they been informing customers from the beginning that they too should not expect 100% compatability? I don't remember reading anything like that, and based on the good backwards compatability of PS1 games on PS2 I expected the situation to be the same. So if they expected these problems but just didn't tell anyone.. that's supposed to make them sound better?
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I'm confused. If you need to play a PS2 game on the PS3, and it doesn't work well. WHY NOT PLUG IN YOUR PS2? I'm assuming you didn't purchase a bunch of PS2 games to sit on a shelf and collect dust. There must have been a PS2 in your greasy palms at some point.
The PS3 is likely emulating a PS2 through a combination of hardware and software. Since 99.99% of the people buying a PS3 will want to play PS3 games on their PS3, this really isn't an earth shattering issue. For the small remaining crew, they have a PS2 they could hook up until the firmware updates roll out to correct it.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
This has been a subject of discussion at Beyond3d's forums for some time now. What people have speculated there is that the compatibility issues are on par with those that the slim ps2 had.
Moreover, it seems many/most of the problems don't severely implicate those games which have compat. issues in the first place. Some games are merely not playing BGM correctly. Regardless, the ps3 has a 97%+ compatibility rate, which is quite good considering the umbrella of games it has.
Most importantly, there's a software solution being refined for emulating the ps2 on the ps3 rather than using the built in hardware. Currently, Sony basically integrated the ps2's hardware into the ps3 (probably adds $30 or so to the price tag). When a software solution is finalized, you'll see ps3s without ps2 hardware, and possibly slightly lower prices. Not to mention that since it is emulated, there's the chance that games might see enhancements like AA or filtering.
I read on another site (possibly Destructoid) that Guitar Hero was having problems, due to the fact that you needed to hit a specific button (let's say 'X') that doesn't exist on a GH control. Then if you try to hotswap controls, you're told to turn on analog control, another feature which the GH control doesn't have.
It's like sex, except I'm having it!
Really, what Zonk meant to say was:
It sounds bad, but to put this in perspective I believe there are still far more PS2 games playable on the PS3 than there are Xbox games.
All kidding aside, though... That list makes it look like the problems are minor... Basically HDD games aren't supported (They aren't supported on the actual PS2 anymore either) and some cut scenes have audio problems. Oh well.
I think I recognized 5-10 of the games in that list. Given, I'm not a "hardcore" gamer by any definition... but are most of these games in Japan or something and the info is from that release and the trouble Japanese people are having? I didn't really notice if TFA said or not, so someone correct me if it didn't.
Basically though, how many people in the US will this really impact? I'm certain that most of the other PS2 gamers out there have heard of and/or played more of those games than I've heard of... but I don't see too many (of what I would consider) big names on there (except maybe GT4, FFXI, Tekken 5, and a couple other debatable ones). Will the majority of gamers really have that many problems?
(i'm not trying to say it's insignificant or anything, i'm really asking)
Anyone who buys a first version of a product has to expect bugs. If they don't then they obviously don't understand technology and consumer products. It sounds like they plan to offer free fixes as they discover and fix these little bugs so what's the big deal? If you don't want to help debug the product you're buying then wait until the third major release. It'd be different if they weren't going to offer free fixes for the problems.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
there are still many PS1 games that don't play correctly on the PS2. after a system has been out for a couple years, people stop caring. with online updates the PS3 has a much higher chance of supporting more backwards compatibility than the PS2 ever did.
Can I still play Barbie's Horse Adventure?
Wait, didn't Sony include the PS2 hardware into the first gen PS3s percisely so this wouldn't happen?
How can they not get 100% backwards compatibility when PS2 games run on the PS2 hardware?
Sony needs to hire those guys from Bleem! to finish their emulation software! It's perfect for them!
(This post has been modded -1: Way Too Dated A Reference)
... you sold your PS2 and gave blood plasma for the past 6 months to finance your PS3 :)
Yeah I see that point. My PS2 is certainly on it's way out.
But I have to believe this is a matter of firmware updates and time-- not a permanent problem.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
I have about 20 PS2 titles, and only one is on that list (Devil May Cry, attract mode sometimes freezes) - IGN has a better version of the list listing the games most people would care about, and also with more generic issues (like some USB device support in PS2 games being flaky, like microphones).
As least you don't have older versions of popular games not being supported in order to push newer titles (Ridge Racer was not on that list).
Also noted is that the PS3 does not support the multitap - but it does support multiple controllers directly in PS2 games (since the PS3 can support up to seven wireless controllers at a time).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That was a stupid joke that would not go away back in high school. If you're going to spread FUD about the PS3 Zonk, at least be a fucking man about it and stop trying to pretend your 'softening the blow of bad news'.
The PS3 has about 98 percent BC for PS2 and PS1 games. And the number games in that 2 percent that don't actually work are tiny. Other than harddrive games and the Guitar Hero controller problem, a glance at the list should give everyone a good idea of how good BC turned out to be on the PS3.
That they were using a unofficial Playstation-controller --to-- PC USB dongle in a way it wasn't meant to be used.
Still, Sony should have had an official USB adaptor device upon the PS3's release. Seeing as how this actually worked, surprisingly enough, there is probably a good chance of one getting released.
As for backwards compatibility I am not too disappointed, things seem to be about the same as with the PS2. From back then I had the understanding that games were not 100% backwards compatible, but for the most part the stuff I used on the non-slim worked fine --save for maybe one game not recognizing the memory card once in a while.
Plus with the PS3's online connectivity those issues can easily be fixed unlike the PS2s. And I haven't been paying much attention, but I don't recall any promises that the PS3's backwards compatibility would be 100%....
I'm not surprised the Valkyrie Profile games have problems. The first game used special algorithyms to compress both the graphics and sound. The first VP had problems running on PS2s in the first place so incompatibility on PS3 is no new surprise. I'm betting VP2 uses compression for the audio similar in function to the first game. It's a hallmark of games members of the former Tri-Ace team have worked on that allows them to cram more samples into a game.
Therefore you better expect all Tri-Ace team or sound compressed games to have problems. This includes Star Ocean 2 (Tri-Ace) and Alundra (sound compressed). Wild Arms 2 may have issues as well.
If it was simple then they wouldn't be having all these problems.
The hard answer is it depends.
1. Did the program use some strange feature or bug that you are not emulating? This can cause problems even for hardware. You do a new rev of some chip and a program that uses some strange workaround fails. This was a major problem for Apple when they created the Apple IIc. It used the 65c02 which fixed a lot of bugs in the 6502 that some software depended on. It was also a problem for some Amiga users when they upgraded to the 68010 or higher.
2. timing. This can be a real pain since on a modern CPUs you can not cycle count. On a modern CPU the amount of time an instruction takes is not fixed. Again did the software you are tying to emulate do something really odd with timing? Sound issues are often caused by this.
3. Bugs. No program is perfect. Emulators tend to multiply bugs. One bug my effect a dozen games.
4. Lack of documentation. Even if you have perfect documentation for the hardware specs that isn't enough. Some developer somewhere will go outside the specs and try something strange just to see if it will work. When it does they will leave it in. Unless you have the source for every program you intend to run on your emulator the odds are pretty good you will miss something. Even if you do it is unlikely you will go through every line of code.
What developers like about consoles is that you can program right down on the hardware to get the maximum performance. You know that each and every console will have exactly the same hardware.
What emulator writers hate about consoles is that console developers program right down on the hardware. If you make the smallest mistake it will come back and get you.
Just a short list of reasons.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Never buy a sony console at launch, there are always bugs. I had to replace both my original playstation one and two. However, this really isnt that big a deal, 196 games out of a library of three thousand or more games isnt so bad, and I bet sony will eventually fix most of these issues in an update , or it will be fixed in a later revision of the hardware unfortunately for early adopters (like the ability to read cd-r and dvd-r disks and adding progressive scan was in the playstation 2).
Just wanted to weigh in and note that is the correct answer, thanks for filling it in.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There are only a handful of games that use the hDD, but already Sony has announced future support for Final Fantasy VII (or whichever one it was that ran on the PS2 HD). No way they could let that market drop!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When I get a PS3 (not this year, probably next) it will replace my PS2 because I have a lot of devices vying for video connections - even with a switchbox in place. Not to mention space devoted to various consoles, which females in the household seek to minimize.
My PS2 still works just fine but it does have some problems with a few newer games that use blue discs, in particular Lego Star Wars. So I would love to have a PS3 that could also play a few current games I couldn't get to work on my existing box (borrowed a friends PS2 just to finish that game).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sony brags "our PS3 will be 100 percent backwards compatible because we are including a PS2 emotion chip in there". Oops. guess not.
Sony brags "we'll have more than enough systems at launch". HA! if you believed that one I got a bridge to sell.
Sony brags "Our system is best" are we going to listen?
The problem with Sony is no one would care if you only could player 1200 out of 1400 games. However Sony can't stop hyping their system to the point where they promise so much that of course they are going to screw up. They now claim PS3 Killzone is beating expectations? That sounds great right? Until you realize the Ps2 was going to have no FMVs, everything was going to be real time rendered.
What's killing sony right now is not production problems or system problems, or delays. It's that they can't keep their fucking mouths shut. And that swear is necessary because it's so obvious why the media is hating them. People know when they are being lied to or forced to make a hype piece about something that doesn't deserve it.
If Sony kept low key til September it would really have helped them by wheting our appetites at E3, and letting us simmer. However since March we have not had a week with out one story about their system, and I'm sure that's why we're getting a bunch of bad press for them. Because we keep finding out they are bullshitting the media and bullshitting the people who buy their system.
Nintendo on the other hand kept quiet, did a couple announcements and arn't hyping the system, they just meantion good news "oh by the way, the Virtual console? It's also going to do Genisis games" and we are happy. They don't try to over hype the people, and they are acting like they are telling us breaking news so it sounds like "hey I just learned this". These deals probably were made before the original announcements but they are playing with the media just right, keeping the media interested, but not overselling their position.
Sony should lose just for the amount of hype they put out. Last time this level of hype was in the air Daikatana was coming out. And the parellels might not end there. I guess we'll see if "Sony will make us it's bitch"?
So, does this mean that the Ps3 can't play Ps1 games? If the ps3 struggles with the pas2 sound, then that it surely wouldn't play ps1 games which ran on the sound chip inside the ps3, right?
Objectivity.
Never buy a sony console at launch, there are always bugs. I had to replace both my original playstation one and two. However, this really isnt that big a deal, 196 games out of a library of three thousand or more games isnt so bad, and I bet sony will eventually fix most of these issues in an update , or it will be fixed in a later revision of the hardware unfortunately for early adopters (like the ability to read cd-r and dvd-r disks and adding progressive scan was in the playstation 2).
expand this to include all consoles. The NES had huge issues with v 1.00 as did the xbox, ps2, xbox 360. There are others but they didn't get as much press.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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My copy of "Daito Giken Premium PACHISURO Collection Yoshimune" won't work on my new PS3. I am pissed. Um, could anyone tell me what "Daito Giken Premium PACHISURO Collection Yoshimune" translates to in English? Thanks.
I know Metal Gear Solid 2 requires the rumble feature for when you get the cell phone, otherwise you never know when to answer it. What're they going to do to solve that? Whenever I get my PS3 (probably after next Christmas,) hopefully I'll be able to use my Playstation(2) USB adapter I have for my computer....
Just for the record, this also means that despite it having controller lights for Controllers 1-4 (like the PS3's controller); the Wii can support up to 7 controllers, as the Wii-motes are Bluetooth as well.
Daito Giken is the name of a particular manufacturer of gambling machines (you can see which at www.daitogiken.com). Pachisuro is short for Pachinko/Slot. Yoshimune is another name. So, basically, a forgettable bargain basement gambling game.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Unlike Microsoft who SAID they would improve backwards compatability and then abandoned it after a few more 360 titles were released....
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
Ok, some PS2 games don't work well on the PS3, but what about PS1 compatibility?
/ The Arrow
"How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
Err am I being overly simplistic here.
If you've got a vast collection of PS2 games you probably have a PS2.
So if your PS2 game does not work on your shiny new 1st release PS3, curse, take the PS2 out of mothballs and play you game on that!
The SNES had no backward compatability with the NES at all and no-one complained about having to use thier NES to play all of thier old games.
I garuntee that when I get a PS3 it will only be a few months until I am no longer playing any of my old PS2 games anyway
Paul Gogarty
This is in contrast with the Xbox 360 backwards compatibilty which is such a total joke that I can't believe anyone even bothers to mention it as a feature. On the 360 there isn't any way to move an old save from an Xbox, huge numbers of games don't work at all, and those that do are not guaranteed to behave the same way.
I'm not complaining about the 360; it's a great console. However, I'm baffled as to why Microsoft even bothered with the backwards compatibilty (apart from suckering people with a tick-box feature). It's sufficiently bad that I doubt anyone moving from an Xbox would consider using the 360 as a replacement if they want to play xbox games.
Daito Giken Premium PACHISURO Collection Yoshimune loosly translated is "Duke Nukem Forever" in Engrish.
There are also a lot more ps2 games than original Xbox games. It would be interesting to see a % comparison.
I think its just different views of the companies that drove their backcompat efforts. Microsoft with only their second console wants to make sure that every game they port works, while Sony knows economically thats not possible with the large title library, so they say 'here ya go, if it works good for us. if not, suck it up'.
Why don't you read the actual wikipedia PS2 page instead?
"By the end of September 2006, there were 8,181 PS2 titles released worldwide (4,554 in Asia, 1,319 in North America, and 2,308 in Europe),[7] accounting for cumulative production shipments of 1.127 billion units"
And the gamecube page "The GameCube currently has over 600 games available in its library"
So at minimum, the PS2 has 10x the games the gamecube does.
So the parent poster was right.
Now if your talking strictly american games, okay the PS2 "only" has double, but that's assuming all the gc games were released in america (which they most likely were not)
Can you run those emulators in Cedega?
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.. and please don't mod this post funny.
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Does anyone remember the virtual gamestation? Does Sony?
Years ago, Microsoft purchased Connectix, which developed
Virtual PC AND PS1 emulator technology that runs on the PowerPC
chip, and emulates the MIPS chipset used in the PS1 and PS2.
Why is the PowerPC chip important in this? That CPU is now
used by Sony, Microsoft, AND Nintendo in their respective
consoles.