The Unfriendly Side of German Game Development

As hysterical as American media and politicians can get over 'violent' videogames, the folks making games in Germany have it a whole lot worse. Tim Partlett (a developer at Crytek) shared his experience with the Quarter to Three forums, describing what it's like to be raided for making a videogame. He describes what it's like to be hated for your job, and laments the attitude of the nation towards his chosen line of work. From the article: "At the time of the (2002 Erfurt school) shooting, we were already in development of Far Cry ... We were just across the state border from Erfurt in northern Bavaria. Tensions in the region were high ... In 2004 the Bavarian authorities sent in the state troopers... When the small tech team appeared to inspect our computers, they were accompanied by over one hundred flak-jacketed riot police, all armed with Heckler and Koch sub-machine guns. It was a total overreaction... They arrived first thing in the morning, and kicked down our doors. They even raided the nearby private residences ... I was caught just outside the office ... We were all shepherded into our Mo-Cap room, and there we were forced to remain until questioned, prevented from leaving by dozens of armed guards."

Comments

Interesting

[badenglishihave]

This explains why those villains in Far Cry all look like Germans.

Re:Interesting

[Clever7Devil]

"That's because you were taken in by the BBC! Filthy British lies! But did they ever say a bad word about Winston Churchill? CHURCHILL! With his cigars, and his brandy, and his ROTTEN paintings! ROTTEN! Hitler, there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!"

Obligatory

[inviolet]

Für die Kinder, Kamerad!

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

kamerad

So the question is

[drinkypoo]

When will the game developers leave Germany? And what will the next industry chased out of that poor deluded country be? Germany has a complex over the whole Third Reich thing - it's understandable, but let's face it, if you weren't involved or responsible somehow, you need to build a bridge and get over it. Any people could go that way given the right (wrong) circumstances.

Re:So the question is

[MuChild]

It's sad, the Germans, like us Americans, used to have a rep for making high quality, cutting-edge stuff. Now we just make middle managers.

So they have one little shooting and they freak out with police-state, authoritarian tactics that the average citizen won't object to. A slippery slope until everyone's wearing coded buttons again.

I, for one, welcome our safety-minded overlords.

Re:So the question is

[Elwood P Dowd]

Iduno. I don't mind people being obsessed with the failures of their forebears if it prevents them from doing similarly fucked up things. Of course, jailing holocaust deniers seems like the wrong lesson learned.

But maybe if they paid the right kind of attention, they wouldn't truck w/ this militarization of their police force. Of course, ditto for us in the states.

Re:So the question is

[ebunga]

Wait, so shipping everyone off to college to get an MBA as they don't want to be a skilled factory worker is a bad thing? Who would have thought. Not everyone can be an office worker.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Hail Safety Führer

Re:So the question is

[MuChild]

That's the f*cked up thing, it's like they're so focused on becoming a social/political utopia that they don't notice the paradox of forcing people to be free and using a miltitarized police force to stop violence.

It's the same with us. Sigh

Re:So the question is

[Vellmont]

Germany has a complex over the whole Third Reich thing - it's understandable, but let's face it, if you weren't involved or responsible somehow, you need to build a bridge and get over it.

Eh, the way I've always looked at it is the Germans are Nazi's about being Nazi's. They don't like to talk about it, but there HAS to be something about German culture that allowed the Nazi's to be so successfull. Now they've just re-assigned that same behaviour towards other forms of control.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

And most office workers can be replaced with a few people who are willing to do the work.

Re:So the question is

[KnuthKonrad]

Germany has a complex over the whole Third Reich thing - it's understandable, but let's face it, if you weren't involved or responsible somehow, you need to build a bridge and get over it.

Problem is, whatever we do, we're wrong. If we try to keep out of armed conflicts like U.N. missions, we're told "get over it, you need to learn to kill again" (quote from an english officer regarding german forces in Afghanistan). If something happens like the article mentions, we're called "Nazis" again.

It's a game we can't win and I guess it still needs a few centuries (if ever) until this situation has vanished.

And perhaps, although this is an uncomfortable situation for us Germans, the world as a whole does benefit from always remembering the Holocaust. Nobody wants to be the "Next Nazis". If that's what it's good for, so be it.

Re:So the question is

[empaler]

It'd be funny if it wasn't true. Or, well, it'd be funny if it was history class, anyway.
Gotta love the irony of becoming the beast you are trying to slay.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't win? No, it's pretty simple in this case: Don't fight fascism with fascism.

Re:So the question is

[TnkMkr]

Actually there is something in the Human condition that lends itself toward the Nazi like behavior. It comes from the pack mentality or the need to belong to a group. A highschool teacher actually did an experiment with his world history class, I read about it in college as part of a study of human group behavior. There was a formal paper written on the experiment but I could only find a link to this article.

http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/Auxiliary/Psycholog y/Frank/Thirdwave.html

Enjoy

Re:So the question is

[The Monster]

there HAS to be something about German culture that allowed the Nazi's to be so successfull

The irony is that when the Inquisition was literally torturing Jews to death, the states of what eventually became Germany were the most hospitable to Jews. I think this is due to the fact that the Catholic/Protestant schism kept any one religious organization from gaining the political power that could empower an Inquisition.

I really do think that just about any country is capable of becoming a totalitarian dictatorship, given the proper conditioning. If Germans have any built-in cultural proclivity here, it's the value placed on order. That creates a certain amount of inertia to overcome before one questions the orders being given. "I was just following orders" wasn't just a lame excuse.

Re:So the question is

[Swimport]

They even raided the nearby private residences

Germany has a complex over the whole Third Reich thing

Raiding your neighbors for what you've done sounds like the Third Reich. Nevermind getting raided by sub-machine gun totting gestapo for making video games involving gun violence.

Re:So the question is

[iocat]

Dude, you have no appreciation of the delta in personal freedom between the US and Europe. You think the US is bad? Europe basicaly is a police state -- sure, it's run by PC authortarians, but they're still total authortarians.

Re:So the question is

[7Prime]

Jesus...

Thank you. That was one of the most rivitting things I've read from my days on Slashdot for a long time. I do question if it was really real, or simply a thought experiment in the form of a story, but either way, it does very well to prove a point. My question come from believing that any school, or community, would allow such a thing to take place. Obviously, the school had to be very progressive for other teachers to be okay with students skipping class and enacting a fascist order, but at the same time, the uncertainty of the teacher and other adults as to how far it should go would have scared the shit out of most progressive thinkers (as it obviously did, him).

It is hard to understand, but not impossible, how something like this could happen. There are elements of Lord of the Flies, here, how societies can become twisted without even realizing it. I just finished rewatching an anime... don't know if your into the genre... called, "Now and Then, Here and There", which depicts the lives of a number of children as they're confronted with and pulled into a manevolent fascist regime. Another example of how anyone can become "re-educated" into such an environment.

Anyway, this article totally obliterates the notion that there was something inherent in German culture that could allow this to happen. Really, the only thing that allowed it to happen was an intense sense of dissolution and desire for redemtion, a society hanging on for one charasmatic leader to answer the call. Any society could have fallen into the same trap under different conditions.

Once again, thanks.

Re:So the question is

[Genevish]

Have you read about the Milgrim Obedience Experiments. They are even more chilling...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Re:So the question is

[xrayspx]

The world needs ditch diggers too, son. How 'bout a Fresca?

Re:So the question is

[Das Modell]

You're talking about two extremes. One is soldiers refusing to use their weapons (if that's what you mean), and the other is game developers being raided by a SWAT team. Both extremes are silly.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe basicaly is a police state -- sure, it's run by PC authortarians, but they're still total authortarians.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Have you even been to Europe? In the US I've seen people threatened with arrest for asking a question. A college student was recently tazed repeatedly for not moving fast enough, even after he was handcuffed and on the floor. These kind of things do not happen here, especially not in Germany. Go fuck yourself.
And, to get back on topic, most of the people I know here, in Germany, in Bavaria, think the proposed law is ridiculous. It's one politician trying to make points. With whom, nobody knows. But the point is that the citizens here think he's nuts for even proposing it.
And to get back off topic: Your president is not authoritarian? Again, go fuck yourself.

Re:So the question is

[dunkelfalke]

they want. there are a couple of politicians who scream right now "forbid the shooters" but their screams are part populism and part demand for a bribe.

Re:So the question is

[Hubbell]

That college student got what was coming to him. He refused to comply with orders, and started freaking out with the expressed intent to cause a scene/riot against the officers who were called in to remove him. If you really think that refusing to obey the commands of an officer of the law, attempting to incite other people around you who far outnumber said officers to riot against them, and making an utter ass of yourself in some retarded political statement are entirely ok things to do, I suggest you go try it yourself, cause I can almost guarantee you'll get your head knocked around a few times.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Tazing someone who is on the ground and helpless is beyond the pale in a civilized society. It something that happens in police states. Q.E.D. The U.S. is far closer to a police state than Germany has been since, well, since 1945.
Go fuck yourself, too.

Re:So the question is

[Hubbell]

Are you one of those people who cried POLICE BRUTALITY! when Rodney King was beaten?

Re:So the question is

[Minwee]

There is evidence that this really happened, although not exactly the way that Mr. Jones described. While his version makes for compelling reading, former coworkers and students say that he has stretched the truth more than a bit.

Re:So the question is

[Lars T.]

Are you one of those people who cried POLICE BRUTALITY! when Rodney King was beaten? Are you one of those people who cried "Nigger should have stayed home!" when Sean Bell was shot?

Re:So the question is

[Lars T.]

When will the game developers leave Germany? And what will the next industry chased out of that poor deluded country be? Germany has a complex over the whole Third Reich thing - it's understandable, but let's face it, if you weren't involved or responsible somehow, you need to build a bridge and get over it. Any people could go that way given the right (wrong) circumstances. This has nothing to do with Nazis, it has to do with kids shooting other kids. We Germans -unlike Americans- just aren't used to that yet.

Re:So the question is

[Hubbell]

Don't know who sean bell is, but I'm assuming you are saying Rodney King was a victim of police brutality. He was drunk, high on cocaine and PCP, and driving in excess of 90mph in a residential area. When he finally crashed, thank god not killing anyone, he fought the officers and, thanks to our little friend PCP shutting down all pain receptors, he was repeatedly attempting to get up and attack officers as they beat him. In that situation their only recourse WAS to beat him into submission, because quite frankly no other way would of ensured the officers safety in the face of a crazed drug user.

Re:So the question is

[KDR_11k]

Europe isn't a state, it's a continent and unlike North America it has more than three countries. Which "state" are you talking about?

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

> the states of what eventually became Germany were the most hospitable to Jews

And that's why there were so many of them in Germany and why Yiddish picked up so much German. Unfortunately nationalism always comes around and finds a convenient scapegoat in the Jews sooner or later.

Re:So the question is

[KnuthKonrad]

It's not soldiers refusing to use their weapons. It's a shift in the mission, that were not comfortable with (giving our history). Right now, we're stationed in the north of Afghanistan and doing nation building. But we're urged to move to the south and engage in battle. But that's not what our parliament has sent the troops over for.

The other one: Well, the SWAT team was of course overkill. But as we already have laws in place that forbid the "glorification of violence" (as it's put in the law), the house search was a perfectly legal thing, technically speaking. Of course, we can argue if that law makes sense, but as long as it's in place, there's nothing wrong with it. And there are a lot of laws in a lot of countries on this earth that doesn't make sense to me.

Re:So the question is

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Damn it, Lars, this has nothing to do with kids shooting each other. This is about raiding people for producing a video game.

Re:So the question is

[7Prime]

Yes, actually my uncle was a participant in it, and it had a huge negative emotional effect on him. He was an electrical engineering student, so he (unlike many participants), knew exactly how electricity would effect the human body, so he stopped before they turned it up too much, but still he felt like he had been made to do horrible things. This had such a huge impact on his life, that before the experiment, he considered himself a Conciencious Objector, and was preparing to apply for CO status during the Vietnam war. After being forced to inflict pain on a person during the experiment, he felt he could no longer concider himself a CO, and was basically forced to inlist due to his birthdate (thankfully, due to his technical expertise, he became a radio technician far away from the frontlines... but he still hated it every day).

The Milgrim Experiment is one of the most famous, and most controversial experiments in history, partially because stories like my uncle's were very common, and people felt forever effected by what they had done, some to debilitating degrees. There was a huge law suit over the experiment, and, if I remember correctly, the Milgrim scientists lost the suit.

Re:So the question is

[KnuthKonrad]

There's also a TV movie about it: "The wave". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/

Re:So the question is

[geminidomino]

So they have one little shooting and they freak out with police-state, authoritarian tactics...

I guess old habits die hard.

Ooops, did I just reference that decade that didn't happen? I'm such a crass, ignorant American.

Re:So the question is

[geminidomino]

Europe isn't a state, it's a continent

Tell that to the EU.

Re:So the question is

[KDR_11k]

The EU neither encompasses all of Europe nor brings the member states into any kind of cultural conformity. Look at e.g. the freedom of press index the RSF releases, EU member states have a wide range of scores. Many police state stories originate from Airstrip One, not e.g. Norway.

Re:So the question is

[geminidomino]

Being a state(nation) and having some sort of "cultural conformity" isn't a biconditional. The US doesn't have anything remotely resembling a "culture" (hell, we can't even manage to decide on a bloody language) much less anything resembling "conformity" within it.

Also, don't make the mistake of equating the fruits of incompetent government with the intentions of said government. Just because the EU is a clusterfsck doesn't mean that they didn't/don't intend to make a single state out of the member nations, just that they haven't managed to pull it off yet.

Re:So the question is

[KDR_11k]

Calling a continent a police state implies that all countries on that continent implement strict surveillance laws and such.

Re:So the question is

[drinkypoo]

If you really think that refusing to obey the commands of an officer of the law, attempting to incite other people around you who far outnumber said officers to riot against them, and making an utter ass of yourself in some retarded political statement are entirely ok things to do, I suggest you go try it yourself, cause I can almost guarantee you'll get your head knocked around a few times.

I just want to debunk this crap comment right now before people start believing you.

1) There is no evidence in the video that he was refusing to obey the "command" (Heil!) to depart. Eyewitnesses say that he was departing, although perhaps he could have been leaving faster. However, tasering someone does not make them depart quicker (it typically makes them lie on the ground and twitch) and allowing him to depart slowly would have caused the least problems.

2) There is no evidence that he attempted to incite anyone to riot. What he said in the video, which you apparently did not watch, is "THERE'S YOUR PATRIOT ACT". Incidentally, the law does not permit the police to commit unnecessary acts of violence. They are permitted to use necessary force to defend themselves or to execute an arrest. The student was not violent - he acted as nonviolently as possible, in fact, and resisted the abuse in a purely passive fashion. Tasering the student was unnecessary.

3) Making an ass of himself in some retarded political statement? He was tortured for not complying quickly enough to suit the officers in question and he made a statement about that. I'd be making a statement too - I'd be on the fucking news.

If you think this kind of behavior is acceptable, then you are unworthy of living in a free nation, not that we live in one. Please go to some utterly fascist country, as you will fit in there and improve this place.

Re:So the question is

[kalirion]

Yes, actually my uncle was a participant in it, and it had a huge negative emotional effect on him. He was an electrical engineering student, so he (unlike many participants), knew exactly how electricity would effect the human body, so he stopped before they turned it up too much, but still he felt like he had been made to do horrible things. This had such a huge impact on his life, that before the experiment, he considered himself a Conciencious Objector, and was preparing to apply for CO status during the Vietnam war. After being forced to inflict pain on a person during the experiment, he felt he could no longer concider himself a CO, and was basically forced to inlist due to his birthdate (thankfully, due to his technical expertise, he became a radio technician far away from the frontlines... but he still hated it every day).

I've tried to think of what I would do if I participated in such an experiment without knowledge of its true means and purpose. I believe that I would stop as soon as the other "participant" started to want out, and that this would be a moral choice. I recall in the video of a man laughing every time he applied the shock, but as soon as the shockee started processing, the guy said something to the affect of "Well, that's it. If he doesn't want to be shocked anymore, I'm not going to do it no matter what you say." However there is no way to really be sure of my actions unless I find myself in such a situation with selective memory loss...

Re:So the question is

[geminidomino]

You're absolutely right. If I'd said anything about police states, it might even be relevant.

You said "Europe isn't a state, it's a continent." No "police" anywhere in there.

Re:So the question is

[KDR_11k]

I was replying to a post that called Europe a police state, I didn't assign that label myself.

Re:So the question is

[elrous0]

No offense, but I think your country squandered its moral authority to judge others about 60 years ago. But, if it's any consolation, I think I speak for most of the world in saying that we are very supportive of the idea of Germans never having guns EVER again.

-Eric

Re:So the question is

[Lars T.]

No offense, but I think your country squandered its moral authority to judge others about 60 years ago. And your country did far before that.

Re:So the question is

[Anonymous Coward]

You make it sound as if your average layman isn't smart enough to suck dick.

Who did this?

[Anonymous Coward]

The State.

Why did they do it? Because the average person has no way to fight back the tyranny.

When will they do it again? Whenever they please.

To whom will they do it? Anyone -- even those who happily vote for them.

It's time to vote with the noose, I say, for criminal acts of tyranny.

Re:Who did this?

[vega80]

When they came for the videogame developers, I did not speak out. Then they came for the violent videogames, I did not speak out. Then they came for the videogames with sex, I did not speak out. Now I have nothing to play but Nintendo videogames. Apologies to Martin Niemöller.

Re:Who did this?

[KDR_11k]

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the facts but I seem to recall that raid being initiated because a disgruntled employee claimed they were using pirated software.

So, can we start bashing the RIAA now?

It's the blood...

[__aaclcg7560]

Having the bad guys spilling green blood all the time can make even the most harden German developer think he was working on a Star Trek game instead of something more cutting edge.

Another Obliatory..

[me_mi_mo]

We Germans are not all smiles...

Re:Another Obliatory..

[Rude Turnip]

What do you expect from a nation whose language has no translation for the word "fluffy?"

Re:Another Obliatory..

[BeeRockxs]

Haha, very funny, the only thing that's wrong is that you're wrong. Try 'flauschig'.

Re:Another Obliatory..

[heinousjay]

Thank you, kind sir. I was in danger of laughing, and it would be most unfortunate for me to find something humorous. Without your service in destroying my mirth, I could, even now, be in a good mood. I shudder to consider the consequences.

Re:Another Obliatory..

[Anonymous Coward]

Close, but it really means soft. It is the kind of word you use to describe girly-men or low grade carbon steel, not bunny rabbits.

Re:Another Obliatory..

[empaler]

Well, I found it funny and you a killjoy. Should I now write a snide, sarcastic comment about that? Oh, wait...

Re:Another Obliatory..

[dunkelfalke]

flauschiges kaninchen (fluffy rabbit)

Re:Another Obliatory..

[LKM]

Huh? Flauschig is a quite literal translation of fluffy. Which word describes steel, flauschig or fluffy?

The Nazi gene...

[Threni]

...is dominant. I know a Turkish girl who left Germany because she was literally ignored in shops. She'd queue up, and when she got to the front the store-keepers would just serve whoever was behind her. This happened frequently, in multiple shops (in Berlin).

Re:The Nazi gene...

[eln]

Leaving aside the idea that racism is somehow genetic rather than learned, what does it have to do with mistreatment of people based on their occupation?

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing. He just wanted to take the chance to remind people that he's an asshole.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Eideewt]

I don't think that "Turkish" is her occupation. Perhaps you don't know that "queuing up" means standing in line.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[eln]

I know that. I was asking what his comment had to do with the topic of the article, since his comment had to do with racism, while the article has to do with discrimination based on occupation.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Eideewt]

Gotcha. I couldn't figure out where her occupation had been mentioned, and all I could figure was that you thought she was a shopkeeper or something.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up "Armenian Genocide", there is no "Nazi Gene" specific to Germans.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[infestedsenses]

Way to make a ridiculous populist generalization about some evil "Nazi gene" FUD (I can't believe you're being serious.. or are you?), and get this modded so high. If you're looking for some "Nazi mentality", I think this is a good display of how it works. Sad, really.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[nutshell42]

So based on anecdotal evidence you come to the conclusion that all Germans have a Nazi gene making them racists? You are aware that this statement itself is racist? Not to mention pointless. 5 mins on Google could provide half a dozen anecdotes of disgusting behaviour by just about any nationality.

Of course, if you were German your post itself would provide another anecdote on how Germans are racists. =)

Re:The Nazi gene...

[delire]

That does sound strange given that a huge proportion of the West Berlin's Kreuzberg are Turkish, in fact Berlin itself has a huge and strong Turkish community. Admittedly there is some tension between white German Berliners and German Turks in Kreuzberg in some suburbs; but there are far worse cities for a Turk elsewhere in the world than Berlin. This is due to the same kind of racism that it symptomatic of territorial anxiety mixed with nationalistic ambition found anywhere in the world.

Anyway, what does your supposed example of blanket racism have to do with Nazism in particular? Ask a black American in L.A if it's Germans that ignore them from behind a counter.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Anonymous Coward]

I stayed in Kreuzberg once a few years ago There was several feet high graffiti in the main street that read "Between a cop's head and a cop's nosebone there's always space for a cobblestone" (translated). The garbage truck had an armed police escort. At the end of the street was a fresh water hand pump, for the houses without running water. I don't think Berlin's Turkish community have the greatest quality of life imaginable.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[TheSpinningBrain]

Well, it's not to say that Germans don't have racism. After all, even in the US, we have racism against the illegal aliens coming in and taking jobs, not even speaking English. Well, it's sort of similar in Germany. Turkish people come in, they don't all speak the language, either. After all, since Turkey's not in the EU, they're not as financially well off. Just remember when you bash Germans for racism that we were turning boats full of fleeing Jews back to Nazi Germany, where they were probably executed.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[henni16]

She'd queue up, and when she got to the front the store-keepers would just serve whoever was behind her. This happened frequently, in multiple shops (in Berlin).

Shenannigans.
I live in Berlin, have Turkish friends and have never seen or heard of something like that.
And the media and lawyers would be all over cases like that.
Did she shop at Nazis'R'Us or where?

Berlin is the largest Turkish city outside of Turkey.
Among the 3.4 million people (~14% foreigners) there are alone 120000 Turkish people registered as living in Berlin.
And those are only the ones without German passports. You can add several tens of thousands for 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant children or people who already obtained citizenship.

Chances aren't bad that the person in line behind you is also Turkish or of Turkish origin.
Depending on the district, that chance will be well above 50%.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[henni16]

At the end of the street was a fresh water hand pump, for the houses without running water.
That's 100% BS.
Not the existance of the pumps, but the "houses without running water".
Those hand pumps are somewhat famous relics(*) and are still maintained - actually, they have to by law.
Those pumps are deep wells and were/are a water supply system for dire emergencies. There has to be a pump for every 1500 people.



(*) Some of them are at least from the 19th century. But IIRC the main reasons for their (continued) existance are probably WWII and the Cold War when West-Berlin was an "island" and a 100% self-supply infrastructure was built in case of a second blockade:
power plants, water and waste treatment, several inner-city airports etc;
for example, there still is a storage in use below the city that is able to hold 1 billion liters of natural gas

Re:The Nazi gene...

[delire]

Methinks you're talking bollocks. Kreuzberg is one of the most well-tended suburbs in Berlin. Those hand water pumps are antiques, scattered throughout the parks and streets because it's always been nice to get a free drink and wash the snow of your boots and bike tires in the winter. The only houses that don't have running water are likely to be squats. Graffiti like the kind you describe is everywhere in the world, especially that which antagonises the Police. Garbage trucks don't have police escorts except on the very unusual circumstance of May Day.Of all the cities I've lived in Berlin has to be one of the safest and sanest. Berlin makes Paris, London or New York look both panicked and pathologically paranoid.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Armenians killing their neighbours (poor Turkish and Kurdish villagers) during WW1 and getting retaliated in return. Last time I looked up the dictionary, that was WAR not GENOCIDE. As for this idiotic comparison, I have yet to hear one German Jew who did the same before WW2. Actually, most of them fought for Germany in WW1 and they paid for it in WW2. Learn some REAL HISTORY dude!

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Keruo]

normal friday night..
few too many bier..
Döner KEBAB overflow -> core dumped.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[4D6963]

We, the brave frenchmen, have genocided Armenians in 1921. Google must not be your friend, it seems.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why 21 countries have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide as having happened

You could also google for "Assyrian Genocide".

Or "Pontic Greek Genocide"

Or "Fall of Constantinople"

Re:The Nazi gene...

[pr0nbot]

I'm of mixed race (Eurasian). In the late 80s/early 90s we used to visit family in Europe every summer, and part of the ritual was to head of to a big record shop in Munich to check out metal albums (I lived in a developing country, in those days there wasn't much being imported).

In the shop there was a listening post. You'd go up, give the dude your LPs/CDs, he'd stick them on and you'd check em out. Eventually I stopped bothering because unless I was alone, the dude would always motion to the guy behind me in the queue. At the time I didn't really understand what the deal was - I was a shy teenager, my German wasn't the best, maybe I didn't understand the etiquette etc.

I bet things have changed though, that was like 15-20 years ago and since then there's been massively more immigration into Germany.

Re:The Nazi gene...

[Babbster]

Now, shopkeepers should definitely be discriminated against. Otherwise, capitalism will run rampant!

Re:The Nazi gene...

[MemoryDragon]

They did indeed, the german population by now is pretty mixed especially in larger cities...

So the question is-Aim for the head.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Any people could go that way given the right (wrong) circumstances."

So when are geeks going to start snipering RIAA/MPAA/Steam people?

Re:So the question is-Aim for the head.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you get that memo? I'll make sure you get a copy.

Bob number 1

Nobody

[MoOsEb0y]

expects a Spanish^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGerman inquisition!

Re:Nobody

[dunkelfalke]

this wasn't german, this was bavarian inquisition. bavarians aren't real germans (actually most germans would vote for giving bavaria to austria as a gift but the austrians don't like the idea).

quake

[ciscon]

remember when they outlawed quake? well we all know why... hitler played a lot of id games growing up - they don't want that to happen again.

Re:quake

[BeeRockxs]

It didn't get outlawed, shops were just not allowed to advertise it and sell it to minors. Big difference there.

Re:quake

[empaler]

Also, you had to go 'round the back and buy it there, but only if you knew the secret handshake; if you took it out of the paper bag before you got home you risked getting anal probed.

Re:quake

[westlake]

remember when they outlawed quake? well we all know why... hitler played a lot of id games growing up - they don't want that to happen again.

The Nazis issued ceremonial daggers to the Hitler Youth.

The boys began training with mock rifles and grenades. Books and board game younger kids were all put into service of the regime. If Hitket had the tech of the video game, he would have used the tech of the video game.

Re:quake

[Anonymous Coward]

So, the lesson we learn from this is that we should ban toys? And perhaps we should also ban fingers and thumbs, as they can be used as a toy pistol.

The answer to the problem of large-scale violence lies in teaching people rational, critical and independent thought, and the very basic point that it is wise to treat others as you wish to be treated.

I liked Austria's better

[Palshife]

And this is how we develop games in Germany, Herr Jones. *punch*

Over one hundred flak-jacketed riot police

[Anonymous Coward]

They were probably worried about those jumping mutants with those fucking arms that seem to reach out forever. I hate those!

In Fascist Germany

[Anonymous Coward]

In Fascist Germany game plays you

Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that this happened in Bavaria, by far the most conservative German state. I like to compare them to Texas, to give americans a better idea ;)

Bavaria is also the state leading the current initiative to make the laws regarding violent games more stringent, while other states are taking a much more sensible position.

Re:Its Bavaria

[BoberFett]

Which is odd, because Texas is a hotbed of game development. I'd imagine either New York or California are far more likely to ban violent games before Texas. Perhaps conservatism isn't to blame in this case?

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, bad ol' conservative Bavaria, as opposed to liberal, tolerant Prussia where they had to build that wall to keep all the people from running away.

Re:Its Bavaria

[mgabrys_sf]

And ID and most other shooting game companies are based in Texas. What's your fucking POINT?

Re:Its Bavaria

[Shihar]

Uh, Texas is the hub of the video game industry in the US. Texas is pretty damn socially liberal. I think a better comparison is something more like Alabama.

The real tragedy is that German federal law doesn't offer up any support to such a blatant violation of free speech. Then again, German concept of 'free speech' is a lot shakier then the American version. World War II really left the poor bastards a little gun shy when it comes to anything that kinda-sorta-might imply violence.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Texas is conservative, this is fascist.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Vellmont]

Texas is pretty damn socially liberal.

We ARE talking about the state that wants to make it legal for the blind to hunt, right?

I'm not sure I'd call Texas "liberal", but maybe it is compared to some of the other southern states. If you're looking for an extremely conservative state, I'd probbably pick Utah.

Re:Its Bavaria

[MemoryDragon]

I would not say most conservative, more along the lines of being the worst Hicks of western europe. Even for Austrians which are very close to Bavaria in many aspects (But fortunately not in their boneheadedness and idiocy) Bavaria slowly becomes a joke and a part we also are ashamed of. Sorry to say that northern friends but currently you guys are a sick joke, even for us.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Shihar]

People are mangling Republican and conservative, socially liberal and economically liberal, and "liberal" is in "democrats" and liberal is in classical sense of liberalism.

Letting the blind hunt, while a fucking stupid idea, would be a form of INCREASED social liberty. It would allow one more non-violent behavior (err, providing the blind guy doesn't shoot anyone) to be allowed in society. I am not saying that Texas is the most socially conservative state in the Union by any stretch, but that are nowhere near the worse offender. They sure a shit don't have fucking swat teams raiding the plentiful video game offices in Austin.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Vellmont]

Ok, I can accept that definition of "liberal", (though I'd really call it more libertarian). So how about a Texas law banning gay sex, that was only struck down by the US Supreme Court 4 years ago? Is that liberal by your definition?

In the context of the United States, Texas was only one of four states that sodomy laws against gays hadn't been struck down by state courts, or repealed by the legislature. There's plenty of states ready to legalize marijuana. Nevada almost passed a referendum to allow its sale in the open. I don't believe Texas is among those states. Massachusets has legalized gay marriage, New Jersey is likely to do so quite soon. How's Texas doing on that front?

Those are the things I'd look at to define liberties, and sorry, but I just can't see calling Texas liberal, at least within the context of the United States. Sure, Texas isn't as crazy reactionary as Bavaria.. but then Bavaria is probbably the craziest part of Germany.

Re:Its Bavaria

[henni16]

I'd probbably pick Utah.

That's probably closer to Bavaria than Texas due to the religious fundie factor.
It's not a coincidene that the pope is from Bavaria..

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that this happened in Bavaria, by far the most conservative German state. I like to compare them to Texas, to give americans a better idea ;)

They have lots of Mexicans and have a predilection for rodeo also? I never quite imagined Oktoberfest to consist of eating nachos (the greatest culinary advancement in the history of mankind) and drinking Corona while watching men hogtying sheep.

Una más cerveza, por favor.

Es wird bier genannt, schweinhund.

Re:Its Bavaria

[nomadic]

People are mangling Republican and conservative, socially liberal and economically liberal, and "liberal" is in "democrats" and liberal is in classical sense of liberalism.

The people who are mangling it are the ones who, while discussing United States politics, use liberal to mean "classically liberal". Words and meanings change.

Re:Its Bavaria

[justchris]

What is conservative in America is not the same as what is conservative in Germany. They've been around a lot longer, they have whole lists of different things to conserve we haven't even gotten to yet.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is odd, because Texas is a hotbed of game development.

Actually the game industry is mostly in Austin, a city that has been described as "a hippie encampment in the middle of Texas." However, there have been few blockbuster games to come out of Austin lately so the IGDA chapter there has been worried Austin is losing its touch. And, yes, there are developers in Dallas, but they're mostly second-rate. Even John "The Hair" Romero left Dallas and moved out to California where he is pretending he can make an MMO after making the shitiest FPS ever and blowing the money that should have saved Looking Glass.

Posting anonymous because some people become bitter about crap like this.

Re:Its Bavaria

[henni16]

Conservative means here:

• "law-and-order" hardliners, secretary of the interior is the biggest police and surveillance state supporter there is
• "War on drugs", "War on terror", "Zero tolerance", "Glass.Parling.Lot" would really fly in Bavaria
• the same party has had absolute majority in parliament since Bavaria was founded (hello cronyism and corruption)
• that party is the most right-wing party in Germany (except for Neo-Nazi parties); actual slogan "To our right there mustn't be room for another party!"
• "christian values" as in "Think of the children!" and "video games make our children violent"
• The way to "solve" a social or criminal problem is: real solutions might cost money; instead we'll use more laws, harder punishment, prohibition of every morally bad thing we don't want to see. If the problems aren't visible, they are gone.
  To paraphrase a _leftie_ politican on the video game issue: "They support a ban of violent video games in case a game triggers some whacko kid to finally go out and kill someone. We would like to prevent the kid from becoming whacko in the first place."
• Example: media reports about school children showing each other pornos and viloent video clips on their cellphones. Bavarian solution for the problem: ban cell phones at school
• "traditional values": beer, sausage, Lederhosen isn't typical for Germany, it's typical for Bavaria
• some common things with Texas might be
  • a "the rest of you states suck, we're better; in fact, we're basically independent"-mentality
  • conservative=>dislike of immigrants (Mexican border..)
  • gun nuts - lots of "traditional" hunting and gun clubs; the yearly "shooting fair" is the social highlight in every little town
  • "shoot first, ask questions later"

What the AC refers to is that many people in Bavaria will think of what happend as a good course of action.
And that there won't be problems abusing state power for such a useless thing.
And that the main reason for those actions - including the use of riot police - is getting pictures that show "We aren't like those soft leftie cowards, we're HARD on that issue. Don't mess with Texa..eh.. us! We're taking ACTION, something is done about it, don't worry, we'll keep you and your children save."

And also: "If we make enough noise about that school shooter playing Counterstrike, everybody will ignore the fact that he was in a gun club and that that was the reason that he was good at shooting and had access to the guns he used in the first place. Everybody shut up about that! Or someone might ask questions about stuff like why we want to further loosen gun control laws or lower the minimum age requirement for childrens to start using firearms!"

Re:Its Bavaria

[Shihar]

"Liberal" as in a democrat has absolutely no meaning. It is a mish-mash of ideas with no coherent ideological basis. The same goes with "conservative" as in Republican. A "liberal" democrat can be in favor of censoring violent video games and still be called a "liberal". A "conservative" republican can advocate an expansionist military policy.

How about we stop mangling words? If you want to talk about democrats, call them democrats. If you want to talk about republicans, call them republicans. Use the word "liberal" and "conservative" where it actually makes sense. If someone is socially liberal, that has an absolutely meaning that isn't mangled into the mish-mash "liberal" as in democrat means. While the brain dead voting American public might have their heads explode when they hear the words "socially liberal", the dictionary doesn't get confused.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Lane.exe]

Hippie oasis are not, The People's Republic of Austin is still Texas.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

> Hippie oasis are not, The People's Republic of Austin is still Texas

Hmm, all of my friends from austin assure me that it is absolutely not texas in any way other than they're stuck having to comply with texas state laws. Other than that, there appears to be almost nothing in common with the rest of that state. Well, that and the bad weather, death penalties, and a few other bad things.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Cecil]

Most shooting game companies are based in Texas, eh? To quote South Park,

"Horrific deplorable violence is okay, as long as people don't say any naughty words!"

There are various definitions of "conservative", it's not all about the guns.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

That's probably closer to Bavaria than Texas due to the religious fundie factor.

The 'religious fundie' factor that you mention has no meaning here in Bavaria. You can call people conservative and religious, but it's not the same thing. A religious conservative is (overwhelmingly) Catholic, but may or may not attend mass. Birth control? Common. Nobody follows the pope on that one. Nobody runs around trying to convert other people and condemning them to hell. It's nothing like what you would find in either Utah or Texas. There's no comparison.
And the fact that the pope is bavarian for the first time since 1048, well, what else other than coincidence?

Re:Its Bavaria

[Jesus_666]

Bavaria is also the state leading the current initiative to make the laws regarding violent games more stringent, while other states are taking a much more sensible position.

What's making me ashamed is that my state, Lower Saxony, is also following this blatantly populistic initiative. I would have expected the politicians to be a bit more level-headed up here, but apparently no state is safe from politicians who would suck up to any fad to get a temporary boost in popularity.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Jesus_666]

a "the rest of you states suck, we're better; in fact, we're basically independent"-mentality

Bavaria even has the BP (Bavaria Party), which argues that Bavaria should secede from Germany. I think it's no wonder that the Bavarians and the North Germans think of each other as crackpots.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

...which argues that Bavaria should secede from Germany. Yes, please.. NOW!
Bavaria != Germany
Free us from those retarded lederhosen dudes...

Re:Its Bavaria

[Lars T.]

Which is odd, because Texas is a hotbed of game development. I'd imagine either New York or California are far more likely to ban violent games before Texas. Perhaps conservatism isn't to blame in this case? So how many games showing boobies or worse were produced in Texas? Maybe Texan conservatism is to blame for that? Obviously Texan conservatives want to conserve violence.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Lars T.]

Right, bad ol' conservative Bavaria, as opposed to liberal, tolerant Prussia where they had to build that wall to keep all the people from running away. That was East Germany, not Prussia. As for Prussia:

All Religions are equal and good, if only the people that practise them are honest people; and if Turks and heathens came and wanted to live here in this country, we would build them mosques and churches.

Frederick II (the Great) of Prussia

BTW, the wall Mexico build is higher - no, wait, that was the USA.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

Your claim that "think of the children" is somehow an exclusively conservative position is blatently false. Unless you're claiming Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy (both proponents of gaming bans) are conservative.

Re:Its Bavaria

[KDR_11k]

That was Soviet Germany. Prussia was mostly known as Poland at the time.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Obviously Texan conservatives want to conserve violence.

Why, is there a shortage?

Re:Its Bavaria

[KnuthKonrad]

Well, I'm far away of supporting that party (CSU), but you're wrong on some points.

In some aspects, the CSU is even further to the left than our socialdemocrats. So, "mots right-winged" depends on which aspect you look at. The position that "there should be no room for a (democratic) party to the right of us" makes sense in so far as they try to integrate voters into the democratic spectrum who otherwise would vote for a Nazi party.

Bavaria has the lowest rate of crimes with racist background of all german states, so conservatives=>don't like immigrants doesn't sound right either.

Re:Its Bavaria

[Anonymous Coward]

First off i belive its kentucky thats the most conservitive (its the sate that has made it illegal to teach evolution without ALSO teching a religious version that says a genie magicaly made all life think the family guy schetch) but part of the german conservitivenes comes from the WW2 era, many of those in power remember a time when all their cities were STILL ruble and they refuse to let it happen again so anyhting violent is horrible in there mind even if it is just a video game. I mean think what would be done if Call of Duty 3 were released there, there would be an outcry even though thats what happend however Japan has come to grips in Japan they PLAY WW2 games. Germany is just yet to come to grips with the realization of what they did during WW2 and until they do they will continue what they are doing now, targeting an industry that makes games of what they fear, Violence.

Re:Its Bavaria

[incom]

Wow, if that the far right party in germany, you guys are going to die off from matronly weakness and lack of sackitude.
German people don't have children anymore, than what is all the big money they make for, such exploited suckers, producing for the state and not for themselves.

~ThA Ne+ POeT
              |

Re:Its Bavaria

[henni16]

In some aspects, the CSU is even further to the left than our socialdemocrats.
If you look at what they actually do, I don't think Germany has social democrats left. ;-)
At least not in the SPD, not since Schröder.
so conservatives=>don't like immigrants doesn't sound right either
I was talking about immigration politics, not hate crime rates. "don't like immigrants" doesn't equal "beat up brown people"

And the parties/politicans that are against immigration or think that it is a good idea to send people born in Germany "back" to a country they have never seen are usually in CDU/CSU or nazi parties. And the same goes for a lot of the voters.

And what's a Heckler versus a Rail Gun?

[darkonc]

Oh.. You mean a real sub machine gun!

"PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR AND STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!"

done!

(I really wanted to put that quote in all caps, then the lameness filter prevented me unless I added more text)

Everything old is new again

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it's taken 60 years or so, but after reading the details of the raid, it's pretty clear that the German government has recaptured its old enthusiasms regarding violence towards their own population...

Good thing they weren't raiding a flower shop, they might have needed flame throwers!

Let Me Get This Straight....

[darkonc]

A flaming, violent neo-nazi who scrawls 'Heil Hitler' in his jail cell gets royally blitzed and kicks in the head of some poor schmuck, and you blame his run amok on the fact that he played a wrestling game?.

So what happens the next time The Summer Olympics come to Germany?

Re:Let Me Get This Straight....

[empaler]

So what happens the next time The Summer Olympics come to Germany?

They'll disqualify people for allowing their likeness in a computer game. Even if that computer game is about eating gravy.

Re:Let Me Get This Straight....

[chris_eineke]

Wir werden euer Hinterteil besitzen!

Violent games are a root cause of real violence.

[BitwizeGHC]

Or so the Germans would have us believe...!

Lessons Not Learned.

[Shihar]

I swear, there has to be a Godwin's law joke in here somewhere. I mean come on. A fucking German riot squad raiding computer geeks busy making video games. How fascistic could you possibly get?

The EU has a problem. I know that the EU is all scared from World War II and what not, but they need to get over it. Violently repressing anything that might encourage violence really is not an effective method of keeping the fascist away. Further, this isn't just a problem with one little backward German providence. Many European nations have anti-free speech laws preventing various forms of 'blasphemy', racism, and ideology. This isn't an effective way to confront these forces.

The silly talk in Germany and the EU about more stringent rules against video games is going to accomplish only one thing; giving the US more German programmers and designers. Didn't Germany learn a lesson about the stupidity of driving perfectly intelligent people to the US during World War II? The Americans will happily take them in, make some product that can't be made in Germany due to fears of this Gestapo bull shit, and make a buck off of it.

This raid should be a cry for MORE free speech laws to prevent backwards providence from pulling this bullshit, not a cry to clamp down and regulate speech further. Is Germany, with its negative population growth, TRYING to drive out the few remaining young and technically minded people they have left?

Re:Lessons Not Learned.

[empaler]

The EU has a problem. I know that the EU is all scared from World War II and what not, but they need to get over it. I'd just like to point out that the European countries, though united in the European Union, are very different. Unlike the US, we don't have a unified history that goes back more than a handful of decades, so the cultures in Europe are vastly different (by Western European standards).
You are, however, right that I am not allowed to point and laugh at Jews or Gypsies as much as I would like to in public places. Thank gods that my best friend is a Jew and my gf is a gypsy, otherwise I'd never have any fun.

Re:Lessons Not Learned.

[bockelboy]

I still think the EU (and Russia) has a long way before they "get over it" with respect to WWII, like the GP suggested.

I've visited mass graves in St. Petersburg. I've talked to people who lost family in the war. There's still a lot of emotion tied up into that war.

To too many (but not all, hopefully) US citizens, WWII was the "great adventure" that their grandfather or great-grandfather went on, and came back with a lot of stories about.

To many people in Europe/Russia, WWII was something that may have closely affected the town that they grew up in. Emotional wounds don't just get up and heal because we are in the Computer Age.

Re:Lessons Not Learned.

[Jesus_666]

How fascistic could you possibly get?

You're overlooking something. Crytek wasn't raided because someone found it funny. Crytek was raided because video games are this generation's Heavy Metal/television/Rock'n'Roll - ie. the universal scapegoat for every social ailment. Someone ran amok and it was found that, among other things like being depressive, this person played video games. The media immediately concluded that Counterstrike has turned a normal teenager into a killing machine and for one or two weeks 50% of all German politicians had their IQ halved. That's where nonsensical actions like that come from.

One of the biggest "OMG video games are teh evul!"-sayers in Germany is BILD, Europe's most-read tabloid. BILD is capable to cause badly informed politicians to make bad decisions by pretending that most Germans are outraged at their lack of action. Sadly there are quite a number of people (including politicians) who take their opinions from sensationalist press.

What happened here follows an easy scheme:
1.) Student X runs amok and commits suicide
2.) Some media are quick to point out that X had some kind of FPS (or some other kind of video game) installed
3.) Other media insist that Counterstrike caused X to run amok (even if he never played it)
4.) Some politicians demand that any kind of violent video games are banned
5.) While the discussion is taking place stupid people take stupid actions <---TFA IS HERE
6.) In the end the more intelligent politicians manage to silence the stupid demands and make plans to counter the problem by detecting and treating the psychical issue (usually depression) X is known to have had
7.) A couple months later a law is passed that saves money by reducing school staffs, severely impeding their ability to detect, much less help depressive students
8.) Wait one or two years until the next student breaks under the stress of being mobbed by his classmates, which went unnoticed because of step 7

Like magic!

[empaler]

When they came for the videogame developers, I did not speak out.Then they came for the violent videogames, I did not speak out.(..)Now I have nothing to play but Nintendo videogames. Because the non-violent Mario games appear out of thin air. Well, if you've had some of them 1-up mushrooms, maybe.

No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[thecountryofmike]

The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's a land where hate speech is just dandy, and inciting violence is protected, by hiding behind the 'free speech' defense. Unless it's demonstrating against the government, which these days gets you cordoned off into 'free speech zones'.

Germany, and these other countries (which of course you don't name, or can't spell, or just haven't heard of before) all have lower crime rates than the US. Their people are more aware of fascistic behaviour. And they make a distiction between free speech and hate speech.

Somehow you concluded:

Many European nations have anti-free speech laws preventing various forms of 'blasphemy', racism, and ideology. This isn't an effective way to confront these forces.

Clearly, you've lost your mind. You're mixing blasphemy, RACISM, and ideology?!?! Western European countries with hate speech laws are clearly different than religious theocracies with laws against blasphemy and ideology. These hate speech (or 'anti-free speech', doubleplusgood) laws you conflate with fascism aren't the only thing controlling crime, but they don't hurt. And yet you 'conclude' that they're ineffective! Guess I'll just have to take your word for it, right?

Oh, and another thing. Intelligent people were driven to the US during WWII because there was a fucking war going on. Bombs weren't landing all over the fucking US during WWII!

.....................
Having said that, the cops clearly overreacted, and whatever reason they were there for, should have handled it professionally and proportionately...it's a video game company, for crying out loud, not the Hell's Angels headquarters.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[pilkul]

These hate speech (or 'anti-free speech', doubleplusgood) laws you conflate with fascism aren't the only thing controlling crime, but they don't hurt. And yet you 'conclude' that they're ineffective! Guess I'll just have to take your word for it, right?

What is the number one point Ahmadinejad made at his Holocaust denier conference? That countries like Germany ban denying the Holocaust, and that as a result it's impossible to objectively examine the facts. Hate-speech rules do nothing but empower racists, who'll use them to paint themselves as heroic martyrs fighting for truth in the face of government oppression.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[Shihar]

Western European countries with hate speech laws are clearly different than religious theocracies with laws against blasphemy and ideology. These hate speech (or 'anti-free speech', doubleplusgood) laws you conflate with fascism aren't the only thing controlling crime, but they don't hurt. And yet you 'conclude' that they're ineffective! Guess I'll just have to take your word for it, right? Anti-hate speech laws don't make hate speeches magically disappear. The idea that you can ban an idea and some how make it disappear is insane. The Soviets tried and failed to do this for a solid 50 years with methods far more brutal and absolute then anything a European nation has tired, and they still had their ideology overthrown.

The only thing anti-hate speech laws manages to do is make debate illegal and drives any sort of discussion of the topic underground. Instead of being able to confront the racism head and exposing it is a crock of shit in the open, you pave the way for those ideas to go underground where they can't be confronted out in the open. People who are disposed to believe such racist non-sense are not magically converted to good citizens when they see police breaking down doors and throwing people in jail. When a government needs to use violence to suppress an idea, people are going to question what exactly it is about that idea that the government fears so much.

The holocaust deniers are a perfect example of this foolishness. Making it illegal to deny the holocaust just means that these ass holes can't stand up in public and take their licks. I would rather see this shit get sorted out in the open where people can respond, rather then have little underground groups that stew in their hate (rightfully) convinced that the government is out to get them.

Further, you keep trying to argue that you can some how have "free speech" while at the same time making "hate speech" illegal. Free speech means free speech. You are damn right that anti-hate speech laws are anti-free speech laws. If you can't express an idea, no matter how repugnant, then it isn't free speech. What exactly do you think the point of free speech is in the first place? To protect the common consensus as to what is and is not acceptable to talk about? The point of free speech is to protect all speech, even the speech that the vast majority loathes.

If you need a reason as to why free speech should be protected in its entirety, simply RTFA. A form of speech that is considered socially deviant by the majority of Germans just had a a few dozen police is riot gear get raided. If the majority consider this form of speech to be socially unacceptable. Does that mean that the raid was a-okay? This isn't an abstract slippery slope argument. Fucking police stormed a video game companies office.

The US might have a stupidly high incarceration rate due to our stupid prohibition laws, but you can bet your ass that we don't have police in SWAT gear kicking in the doors of video game companies for making games that might be considered too violent by the moral majority. Free speech needs uncompromising protection for this very reason.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[khallow]

Clearly, you've lost your mind. You're mixing blasphemy, RACISM, and ideology?!?! Western European countries with hate speech laws are clearly different than religious theocracies with laws against blasphemy and ideology. These hate speech (or 'anti-free speech', doubleplusgood) laws you conflate with fascism aren't the only thing controlling crime, but they don't hurt. And yet you 'conclude' that they're ineffective! Guess I'll just have to take your word for it, right?

There's no evidence that hate speech laws do anything constructive. Despite the higher violence, the US doesn't have a serious problem with hate crime.

Oh, and another thing. Intelligent people were driven to the US during WWII because there was a fucking war going on. Bombs weren't landing all over the fucking US during WWII!

The surge of immigrants preceded the begining of the Second World War. To give a high profile example, Albert Einstein was granted a "guest professorship" position at Princeton University (in December 1932) a month prior to Adolf Hitler's appointment as Chancellor of Germany, and never returned to Germany. Jewish professors were out of German academic jobs in early 1933.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[smurfsurf]

> That countries like Germany ban denying the Holocaust, and that as a result it's
> impossible to objectively examine the facts.

That is simply complete bullocks. You are very free to examine the facts. Proclaiming "there was no holocaust and these were really just douches" is not examinig the facts, it is denying the facts.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[Das Modell]

The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's a land where hate speech is just dandy, and inciting violence is protected, by hiding behind the 'free speech' defense. Unless it's demonstrating against the government, which these days gets you cordoned off into 'free speech zones'.

Germany, and these other countries (which of course you don't name, or can't spell, or just haven't heard of before) all have lower crime rates than the US. Their people are more aware of fascistic behaviour.

Are you saying that the US has lots of prisoners because they have too much freedom of speech? That doesn't make any sense.

(which of course you don't name, or can't spell, or just haven't heard of before)

Yeah, let's start taking random, unrelated jabs at the level of US education. I'm suprised you didn't throw GWB in there somewhere.

And they make a distiction between free speech and hate speech.

The distinction between free speech and hate speech is whatever the politicians and media say it is. That's it.

Clearly, you've lost your mind. You're mixing blasphemy, RACISM, and ideology?!?! Western European countries with hate speech laws are clearly different than religious theocracies with laws against blasphemy and ideology. These hate speech (or 'anti-free speech', doubleplusgood) laws you conflate with fascism aren't the only thing controlling crime, but they don't hurt. And yet you 'conclude' that they're ineffective! Guess I'll just have to take your word for it, right?

They do hurt, actually. They prevent people from even discussing certain kinds of crime or social problems, which means that the problems are ignored. The laws can also be used by politicians to suppress criticism towards their policies. At worst the country starts to fall apart because nobody is allowed to talk about the problems. Of course, discussion isn't always stiffled by laws, it's enough that an atmosphere of political correctness prevails. People will be too scared to say anything, or they'll be labeled racists, fascists, neo nazis and so forth (and, in certain situations, getting assassinated is a realistic fear).

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[darqit]

In my opinion this entire discussion about free speech and hate speech is flawed. What exactly is hate speech?

I myself live in the Netherlands and have yet to come across laws that prevent someone from expressing their views. Nazi's are allowed to say whatever they wan't to a certain degree. They even have demonstrations if they want. The same applies for the majority of the countries in Europe. It's not like people are thrown in jail because they make remarks that are socially not accepted.

The point is that the laws that we have in the most in the EU are related to liberal principals. A good author to read in this regard is John Stuart Mill. He was an advocate of liberalism which is at the core of present day democracies especially the American democracy. In his essay "On Liberty" he outlines the basic principals of liberalism like freedom of speech. According to this essay it is okay to say whatever you want and society actually needs unpopular opinions to keep debate towards the right opinion going. There's just a little snag.

Freedom of speech is only allowed if it doesn't incite violence.

Hate-speech laws in the EU are not made to filter out the unpopular opinion. They are liberal laws which are to protect people from violence incited by a nutcase. Just last night I saw a documentary about some sect-leader who was working towards a second Waco. Advocating murder in name of the prophet. As usual especially the murder of afro-americans and jews. He had a huge complex stockpiled with weapons and loyal followers. Doesn't it give a clear message if society denounces such acts by judging such speeches. If this guy says kill his followers will do it and afterwards you'll have an entire country asking why this could've happend.

As for laws prohibiting denial of the holocaust those are founded not out of fascism but out of fear and to some extent shame. It doesn't help the identity of an entire people to have such a legacy form past generations. It's not strange that they overreact to it. I'm not saying that it's right but it's certainly understandable.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[pilkul]

Of course it's complete bollocks. But that's racists' main argument nowadays, some gullible people believe them, and the best way to reduce their credibility is to get rid of these laws.

Re:No, you didn't learn any lessons...

[Anonymous Coward]

The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's a land where hate speech is just dandy, and inciting violence is protected, by hiding behind the 'free speech' defense. Unless it's demonstrating against the government, which these days gets you cordoned off into 'free speech zones'. The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world because of its stupid and excessive anti-drug laws. The vast majority those imprisoned in the US are imprisoned on anti-drug laws. The fact that the US actually embraces free speech in its entirety has nothing to do with its insane war one drugs.

Germany, and these other countries (which of course you don't name, or can't spell, or just haven't heard of before) all have lower crime rates than the US. Again, you are deluding yourself if you think your anti-free speech laws are the cause of lower crime rates. Crime in the US is driven almost entirely by the black market drug trade, not by fascist spewing hate.

Their people are more aware of fascistic behaviour. And they make a distiction between free speech and hate speech. Holy shit. Who is accusing who of doublespeak? Making a distinction between "free" speech and "hate" speech? WTF do you think "free" speech is? Does "free" mean socially acceptable or nice in Europe? I hate to burst your utopian bubble, but "hate" speech is covered under "free" speech. Further, even if we were to swallow that "hate speech" is not included in "free speech", Germany has more then simply "hate speech" laws. Denying the holocaust is a crime in Germany. If you write a book trying to show that the holocaust did not happen in Germany, you can and will be thrown in jail. While denying the holocaust might be asinine and generally backed up by douche bags, it is hardly "hate speech" to dispute historical events. Socially unacceptable? Sure. Advocating violence or "hate"? No.

Oh, and another thing. Intelligent people were driven to the US during WWII because there was a fucking war going on. Bombs weren't landing all over the fucking US during WWII! People were pouring out of Germany long before World War II began. The Jews were getting the fuck out of Germany even before Hitler rose to power and long before they went to war and started killing them wholesale. Now, do I think that the Germans are going to kill 6 million video game programmers in the near future? Probably not. Do I think that video game companies and programmers are going to flee Germany? If this shit is a sign of things to come, then hell-fucking-yes. Further, the damage goes beyond video game programmers. There are also people who like to actually play video games that are going to start getting fed up and become convinced that their nation's free speech laws are ass backwards. The last thing in the world Germany needs right now is for they dying and aging population to start driving off what remains of their young and technically inclined workers.

Having said that, the cops clearly overreacted, and whatever reason they were there for, should have handled it professionally and proportionately...it's a video game company, for crying out loud, not the Hell's Angels headquarters. The issue isn't that the cops overreacted. The laws of the land are simply fucked up. The fact that they even got permission to make the raid in the first place is the only thing you need to know to realize how screwed up Germany's free speech protections (or lack there of) are. The fact that the raid was conducted in such an utterly fascist manner is just icing to the cake.

Oh yeah?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shenannigans.

Then explain this phrase:

"Keine Türken."

You are forgeting something....

[Gallium101]

The EU has history. Lots of it. It acts both as an inspiration and a millstone round our necks. Due to this history, and political leaders write lots and lots of laws throughout the history of the continent which all seem like a great idea at the time. As a result of this, most EU countries have a huge "hangover" of legislation, such as monarchs not allowed to marry catholics, no insulting of God and its ok to shoot a Scotsman in the back with a bow and arrow in Cardiff. While these were great ideas when religious warfare was rife, when the country is run by bunch of porridge eating taliban and if you are at war with said nation, they are not relevant for modern times. (The examples are an exaggeration, but you get the point.) As a result you still have these anti-free speech laws, great idea if your trying to destroy an ideology that just committed genocide. You have your blasphemy laws to get all those all those bloody prodistants/catholics/jews/etc. You also have these racist and sexist laws from times gone by. The point you have missed is that we also have laws that override these relics, the EU bill of human rights for example. There are those who will use these relics for political purposes ( a good example in Britain is the use of a law designed to get Nepolioinic war veterans off the streets to remove animal rights protesters.), but if you use the court system, it will override them. Don't judge the past by the standards of today. For we have our own standards and they have theirs.

Re:You are forgeting something....

[Shihar]

The court system over rides the silliest and archaic laws for sure. The issue is that not all of these are archaic, and not all of them are unenforced. You really can't own a swastika in France of Germany. If you write a book arguing that the holocaust didn't happen in Germany, you WILL go to jail. The EU right now IS debating more stringent regulations on video game development and sales.

This silly zeal where video game offices get raided stem from an overall lack of protection from free speech. I am not saying that Europe is an anti-liberal non-free speech zone. I am saying that many places in Europe, Germany included, there is no higher overarching imperative to protect free speech against the whims of the masses and the politicians.

The US is has stupid ass politicians, old people terrified of youngsters, and parents who want the state to raise their kids for them. The difference is that nothing short of a political revolution can wipe away free speech due to fact that it takes an overwhelming super majority to strip away that right. So, when our stupid politicians try and pass laws censoring video games, the law is struck by the courts before it even goes into effect.

Free speech needs to be defended, even when it is unpopular to do so. Holocaust deniers are not magically converted into good citizens by the state threatening to jail them for their beliefs. If anything, it just feeds an atmosphere of cover up, repression, and alienation. History isn't an excuses for weakening free speech and letting it suffer at the whims of the fickle public and stupid politicizations. Europe isn't the only place with history. The US has suffered through multiple terrible Indian genocides that make the Jewish holocausts look like pocket change. The US has suffered a terrible civil war that perhaps while not reaching the same levels of European genocide, certainly managed to achieve the same level of social breakdown. Despite this, free speech and stood protected. Imprisoning a denier or a video game maker in the US is utterly unthinkable, not matter how badly they piss the public off.

WWII for Denmark: The Quick Edt

[empaler]

Heh, true. However, WWII can be described thusly for Denmark:

* OMG! Poland has been invaded by the Germans!
* OMG! We were invaded! We had, like 39 fatalities! (Note: We lost almost ten times that in camps. still neglible numbers affected)
* Wow, our own Swastika for the Danish Volunteer Nazi troops*? OMGTHX! (Scroll down to see the customized swastika on the Schalburg Cross; it reads "Fidelity, Our Honour"; banners here and here
(I'd like to point out that there estimates for the absolute maximum number of soldiers sent out through that corps is 1000, though)
* OMG! UK and US totally helped us get out of this again! W00t!
* Uh... We were totally against it all along! We love the Allies! We even baked you a cake! ... So really, no big, deep wounds in the general populace. And yes, I am oversimplifying a complex issue. If you want, you can read more here. 2 of the abovementioned 39 are even depicted.


*: Uncoralled link here: .

Re:WWII for Denmark: The Quick Edt

[smurfsurf]

I never thought digg existed back then ;-)

Re:WWII for Denmark: The Quick Edt

[dunkelfalke]

well, parent used russia for example and the russian history of the second world war was quite different (they had 5 times more fatalities than whole population of denmark counted back then)

Re:WWII for Denmark: The Quick Edt

[empaler]

dunkelfalke wrote:

well, parent used russia for example and the russian history of the second world war was quite different (they had 5 times more fatalities than whole population of denmark counted back then) I beg to differ ;-)
gp wrote:

I still think the EU (and Russia) has a long way before they "get over it" with respect to WWII, like the GP suggested.(..) And yeah, the difference was the point of the post :-)

Nothing to do with fasicm, it's thinkofthechildren

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with facism whatsoever. And by the reports in the press about the nilly-willy use of paramiliteric units in the US, you should be living in facist land yourself, if you use that as a measurement. http://reason.com/files/58eba09a914d0927da75a44c92 8e9325.jpg

This is the same old sad thinkofthechildren thing you have in the US.

Counter Terrorists Win

[xrayspx]

As any old CSer will tell you, HK MP5, weapon of choice.

For a second there.....

[otis wildflower]

.... I was wondering if the next edition of Ticket To Ride was being attacked..

What he fails to mention

[zerojoker]

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/46094 (it's german, you might want to put that into the google translator). It basically says that the police raided Crytek because the Business Software Alliance (BSA) got several evidence that Crytek was using unlicensed software

Now I'm not sure what came out of this, but I think if the police raids a whole company it's quite standard procedure to come up with some armed guys.

Re:What he fails to mention

[Knos]

I'm sorry.. Standard procedure? Why would you need to be armed to coerce a company to disclose anything when you have the law on your side? Why aren't trenchcoat-and-trilby wearing investigators sufficient?

Re:What he fails to mention

[mabinogi]

He mentions exactly that. Did you actually read the article?

from the eight paragraph:

In 2004 the Bavarian authorities sent in the state troopers. Ostensibly it was as a response to a claim made by a former employee that we had illegal software installed on our machines.

Re:What he fails to mention

[Petrushka]

Sigh ... thank you. I wasted a lot of time scanning through the comments in this discussion before finding yours, the only relevant and informative one of the whole sorry lot. Move along folks, nothing to see here ... FWIW, the article points out that this is not the first time this year that CryTek has been investigated for this.

Re:What he fails to mention

[JRIsidore]

The fact is mentioned in the article itself, yes. But the slashdot summary fails to do so and even implies that this investigation was due to the amok run in Erfurt.

Re:What he fails to mention

[MaXMC]

Hello!!! Mod this up, Parent haven't read the article...

One word: Unther-Glieben-Glauben-Globen

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Unther-Glieben-Glauben-Globen

The only german I know, except: Die, Bart, Die

Sausage?

[elmCitySlim]

German parents don't seem to know how to watch their kids (the only real issue with violent videogames). And another thing...the Germans, and the EU in general , have bigger violence issues with racism to deal with. They are just trying to find a scapegoat so they don't have to work on the real issue of neo-nazi skinheads and other hate groups trying to keep Europe "pure" (you know, since these people have never taken a bio class and have never learned that "pure blooded" is fantasy). It makes you wonder why the people in charge and always avoiding the real source of the violence (makes you wonder if they like Celtic Frost fans burning down churches). Oh, and here is a disclaimer (since every other media outlet doesn't put this in, i feel obligated to): Not all skinheads are nazi's, just a few (who shouldn't be consiterd "skinheads" anyway). There are many skinheads around the world of many different races, religions and sexual orientations...Sorry, I grew up on that punk rock stuff...;-) (emotocon (c) Microsoft)

You've been reading Bill Bryson again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only in his 'Neither Here Nor There' book the East German shop staff ignored a Vietnamese guy. And that was back in the early '70s.

Nice try, but you really need to be reading memory improvement books, not travel logs.

Germans Can't Say Nice Things!

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it's worse in Germany:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53C-ad_8oeM

C'mon.

Re:Germans Can't Say Nice Things!

[dunkelfalke]

to quote that dana carvey: a sphincter says what? ;-)

Re:Germans Can't Say Nice Things!

[Lars T.]

Much nicer Americans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJh-V2Zd-Y

lessons learned by WWII

[marksu]

(I'm german) We are supposed to be thick sometimes but the germans learned a lesson from WWII: to stay away from military actions (see Iraq war for instance).
Who taught us that: the US (thankfully!).
Its not legal to own any lethal weapons here and its very hard to buy one illegally. As a result the chances to win the lottery are much higher than getting shot. That means that any killing with guns is BIG news here and creates quite a fuzz.
Add to that the general opinion that there should be no violence in games (see the load of family board games germany produces). Computer games OTOH don't have a good reputation (thats changing though).
Add to that that just before that raid we had a school shooting (Erfurt) which had no precedent here and the guy was supposed to be playing counterstrike.

Sum it all up and you have a crazed public and politicians with no clue but who have to show their voters that they are 'doing' something.

The thread under the article is worth a read, too. Explains much (if you are interested).

It's a crime in germany to say it was 5,999,999!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just to completely deny it.

BTW the six million number is just the jews. Nazis killed far more then that when you include all the fags, tards, gypsys etc.

operation Sun Devil

[madeye the younger]

Really? What about http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/SJG/ ? I'm sure Steve Jackson might have a word or two to share about armed law enforcement raiding a game company in the U.S.

Funny...

[LKM]

That's exactly the opposite of what I've experienced. For examle, in many european countries, it's quasi-legal to smoke pot. In Switzerland, I was once sitting on a park bench smoking a joint. A police officer came over, and we were like "shit, we're screwed now." Not really: he just asked us to move a bit away since that particular park bench was close to a school playground.

America seems so insane that I'm not even travelling there anymore. Some friends went to the USA on a holiday, and they actually took their fingerprints when they entered the country. WTF?

You don't seem to understand how much freedom you've lost since 9/11.

Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder

[deevnil]

The Producers.