Slashdot Mirror


E-Passport Cloned In Five Minutes

Last month a panel of EU experts warned that the e-Passport's security is "poorly conceived", and in fact a week later a British newspaper demonstrated a crack. Now another researcher has shown how to clone a European e-Passport in under 5 minutes. A UK Home Office spokesman dismissed it all, saying "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

259 comments

  1. Well then, by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip." I guess that's what they call a failure of imagination.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Well then, by l2718 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, it's true that if you already possess a passport and want to copy it, it's essentially the same problem with and without an RFID. It's also true that the RFID chip does stop the basic hack of replacing the photo in the passport (since the data on the chip is persumably read-only, and the chip can't be replaced without mutilating the passport). I think what the esteemed spokesman missed is the privacy implications (I can now read your passport without your knowledge). In particular, you can clone these passports without actually holding the original. In the past to clone a passport you needed the co-operation of its owner (if you steal a passport it's known to be stolen). Now you can make your own sure-to-be valid passport by just stepping into the airport and choosing an appropriate victim (someone who looks like you, perhaps?).

    2. Re:Well then, by ChowRiit · · Score: 1, Informative

      RTFA: The chip contains no information not in the passport, and as the chip can't be cloned remotely, you'd have the passport in order to clone the chip.

    3. Re:Well then, by Zemran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

      Just like it is hard to see why anyone would want to blow up an aircraft? I think that people are still thinking within the sandbox and not realising that the real risk is what we have not yet thought of. There will be lots of reasons to want to access the information and to change it or learn to create false IDs that Joe Average security assumes to be valid because it is state of the art.

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    4. Re:Well then, by pilgrim23 · · Score: 1

      Well thank goodness! and here I was worried that the cost of fake paper was going to climb out of the range of the petty crook. I want to thank the developers and the bone heads in government for insuring the future of honest crooks.

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    5. Re:Well then, by nonlnear · · Score: 4, Insightful
      UYFB (Use Your F***ing Brain): Do you want all the info on your passport's personal details page readable by absolutely everyone you walk by?

      Passport cloning isn't even the primary security concern here. Cloning a passport has become no harder or easier thanks to RFID. But Identity theft will become much much easier.

      --
      argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
    6. Re:Well then, by msobkow · · Score: 3, Interesting
      A UK Home Office spokesman dismissed it all, saying "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

      But isn't the whole point of a secure passport to secure the identity of an individual? If the identity is not secure, we may as well not waste the time or money.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    7. Re:Well then, by LurkerXXX · · Score: 0, Redundant

      UYFB and RTFA.

      "RFID chips can be read at a short distance and tracked without their owner's knowledge, while the key to unlocking the passport's chip consists of details actually printed on the passport itself."

      "It is almost like writing your pin number on the back of your cashpoint card."

      "The basic access control mechanism works based on information like the number of the passport, the name of the passport holder, the date of birth and then other data which are simply readable by anyone who looks on the passport," said Professor Kai Rannenberg of Frankfurt University.

      Do you want all the info on your passport's personal details page readable by absolutely everyone you walk by?

      If someone walks by you while it is in your pocket, they can't read off the pertinent information physically written on it in order to decode the encrypted RFID data. I'm sure given enough CPU time it could eventually be cracked without that data, but there are other much easier ways of doing identity theft.

      Is it lousy security? Yes. Is someone likely to be able to steal your identity by waking by you when it is in your pocket? No.

    8. Re:Well then, by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's also true that the RFID chip does stop the basic hack of replacing the photo in the passport (since the data on the chip is persumably read-only, and the chip can't be replaced without mutilating the passport).

      Stronger than that, the data on the chip is digitally signed, so even if you can tracelessly replace the chip in the passport with a different one that has the photo you want, you're not going to be able to generate the appropriate digital signature for the altered data. This technology makes the passports effectively unalterable, as long as the chip is intact.

      I think what the esteemed spokesman missed is the privacy implications (I can now read your passport without your knowledge). In particular, you can clone these passports without actually holding the original.

      Not exactly. To read the passport data you have to have the authentication key. To get the authentication key, you need to have the passport, because the data that the key is derived from is printed inside. Note, however, that it has been shown that a large enough portion of the printed data is guessable, given basic information like the passport holder's name and a guess at his or her age, that the rest can be brute-forced pretty quickly. So there *is* a possibility it could be read without the owner's knowledge, but it's not completely trivial and does require some additional information.

      The US has addressed this issue by putting a shielding mesh in the passport cover, which isolates the chip when the cover is closed.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    9. Re:Well then, by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it lousy security? Yes.

      I disagree. It's pretty good security. It does have one flaw, that there's not enough entropy in the MRID (the info printed on the inside that is needed to authenticate to the chip) which makes brute force searches too easy, but if that flaw were fixed, I would call it very good security.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    10. Re:Well then, by MrMickS · · Score: 1

      Use some imagination. Passports are delivered by post. It would require the co-operation of a postman but it is possible to intercept the delivery of the passport. Scan the information without opening the envelope then deliver the passport as normal a day late. As the recepient doesn't know when the passport was sent, and delivery delays are sadly common, they have no idea that their passport has been cloned.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    11. Re:Well then, by olman · · Score: 2, Funny

      UYFB and RTFA.

      I see you must be new here.

    12. Re:Well then, by lixee · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Just like it is hard to see why anyone would want to blow up an aircraft? I think that people are still thinking within the sandbox
      Just like it is hard to see why anyone would invade a sovereign country? I think that people are still thinking about how US oil got under their sand.
      Seriously, I'm not trying to troll here. The parent is insightful but dangerously narrow-minded.
      --
      Res publica non dominetur
    13. Re:Well then, by ahillen · · Score: 1

      UYFB (Use Your F***ing Brain): Do you want all the info on your passport's personal details page readable by absolutely everyone you walk by?
      Passport cloning isn't even the primary security concern here. Cloning a passport has become no harder or easier thanks to RFID. But Identity theft will become much much easier.


      As far as I understood, this is not even claimed to be possible by the people who cloned the passport. To read the information from the chip, you need the key. The key is composed of some combination of data already written on your passport, eg your passport number, birthdate etc. So, if you have access to the passport, it is easy to read out the information. Of course, you don't get any additional information, because the data you read out is again the same as what is already present on the document: name, birth date, your picture etc. OK, now you have it in digital form. I might be wrong, but so far nobody has claimed to be able to read out the chip just by walking by, without basically knowing already the information.

      That they are able to clone the passport by writing the same information on a new chip is perhaps is also not so surprising. What would be more interesting is how easy it is to actually change information (eg, the picture) without getting an 'invalid' data set.

    14. Re:Well then, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >
      > I guess that's what they call a failure of imagination.
      >

      On your side?

      On his, this is simply (pretty low quality -as often) manipulation and lies.

      Well, we must not underestimate their mediocrity, but on sensitive subjects (except security), they generally know half the truth (well, they are told half the truth), and lie about it all, as easily as they breath. Of course, most often, they are simply told what to say, more directly, but when it's a matter of privacy, they know they are doing "something which will be perceived as bad, by the masses" (which is not the same as "something bad", for them, but they generally know it's egocentrism, or "self-interest").

      (For anything related to security, and technologies, however, they are simply ignorants, and are quite content with what they are being told to say -no one told them, in their "elite" (yeah, right) school, what it was all about, so this is just insignificant, for them).

    15. Re:Well then, by JimBobJoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I guess that's what they call a failure of imagination.

      It's a common failure that occurs in these scenarios.

      As part of my research on driver's licensing issues, when states added photos to driver's licenses (starting in the late 60's) the word "fraud" never entered the picture. Driver's licenses were essentially fraud free documents before the photographs were added--so it really never entered anyone's mind that things would change once the document became more powerful/useful/trusted.

    16. Re:Well then, by shadowcode · · Score: 1

      Look at it from the bright side, they (criminals) will no longer need to physically steal your passport.

    17. Re:Well then, by jimmichie · · Score: 1
      people are still thinking within the sandbox and not realising that the real risk is what we have not yet thought of.
      Those are the "unknown unknowns", as Rumsfeld put it, and I'm wary of going down that path because it encourages a culture of fear and paranoia. The problem here isn't something we haven't thought of, it's plain as day - identity theft. This Home Office spokesman either doesn't see that and is completely unsuitable for his job, or he knows there is something wrong but won't admit it, and is completely unsuitable for his job.
    18. Re:Well then, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the chip can't be replaced without mutilating the passport

      That's the wonder of non-contact reading: Kill the old chip with your microwave, and sticky-tape the new chip in between some of the many visa-stamp pages.

      Of course, one assumes the data on these chips is digitally signed, so cloning a chip is simple - but producing non-legit data isn't. You'd hope so, anyway...

    19. Re:Well then, by tjcrowder · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The US has addressed this issue by putting a shielding mesh in the passport cover, which isolates the chip when the cover is closed.
      You're saying they've given U.S. passports.......their own built-in tin-foil hats. Clearly they've been reading /. on this issue.
    20. Re:Well then, by DaveCar · · Score: 2, Informative

      If someone walks by you while it is in your pocket, they can't read off the pertinent information physically written on it in order to decode the encrypted RFID data. I'm sure given enough CPU time it could eventually be cracked without that data, but there are other much easier ways of doing identity theft.

      I *believe* that the RFID chip won't actually respond with the encrypted data unless presented with a request which has (some function of) the key information. Which means you can't just get in the info and brute force it later - you have to brute force the key *live* whilst the passport is there to get it to respond. And the RFID tag (deliberately) takes some time respond, making it rather difficult to get the info in any reasonable timeframe.

      Anyway, that's the impression I got by doing some googling ... it may be wrong. And I'm no apologist for these passports - I made sure I got mine renewed a year or so ago so that I got an old style one.

    21. Re:Well then, by mwvdlee · · Score: 1
      A UK Home Office spokesman dismissed it all, saying "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."


      If he is so sure nobody could do anything bad with the information, then why not prove it by publishing all information that is on his chip?
      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    22. Re:Well then, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      we may as well not waste the time or money

      um...this is a government we're talking about
    23. Re:Well then, by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1
      Well, it's true that if you already possess a passport and want to copy it, it's essentially the same problem with and without an RFID.

      I disagree, this opens the same type of security issues as credit cards/bank cards. IE any place that you show your passport to, with a reader, can download and keep a permanent copy of your entire passport in a second, and duplicate later. To copy a non RFID passport, they really need a good photo of the passport, so it needs to be held still with good lighting, and a proper relative position to the camera and light (IE the camera has to be visibile.) With the RFID passport, the passport location anywhere within a couple feet you just need a small black box, powered from batteries, they query the passport with the legit scanner, the il-legit scanner also records the response, now they have a little black box with everyones info who passes the checkpoint. They have everything to produce a exact copy of everyones passport in that box, id-photo, dates, everything, just print the photo onto a passport blank later, fill in the info... They now have something to sell to a ID thief worth thousands of dollars per day. no reason to worry about the RFID portion if you don't want, print out a standard drivers license, or non rfid passport...
    24. Re:Well then, by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1
      won't actually respond with the encrypted data unless presented with a request which has (some function of) the key information.

      I agree.
      Which means you can't just get in the info and brute force it later

      only if you are not sniffing a legit exchange. if a box were stuck to the under side of a counter at a passport agency (or within range of the RFID) you simply need to be able to querry your box remotely later, for a download. then you have the querry request, the encrypted data, and time. If your box could perform a man in the middle attack, then you don't even have to un-encrypt anything.

      no idea how feasabile a man in the middle would be without the help of the agent, because you would need to block the direct response of the passport getting to the official reader, but still be able to querry the passport your self, so I would want the passport to be (electricaly) closer to your device than the official device.
    25. Re:Well then, by Conare · · Score: 1

      Of course if you have the ability to surreptitiously place a 200 Euro (quote from the article) RFID reader at the passport agency to snoop traffic, you probably can also place a surreptitious CAMERA ( probably less than 200 euro) to photograph the bar code containing the KEY on the printed page. Much more efficient. BTW as I've said before this same statement applies to the "passport detonator" FUD. I bet some Iraqis would be more than happy to hide in the bushes with a remote control detonator for far less than 200 Euros. And they will be better at detecting Americans too.

      --
      Stop Continental Drift! Reunite Gondwanaland!
    26. Re:Well then, by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1
      "passport detonator" FUD

      I agree, their are much cheaper ways to kill americans than a $500+ single use device. If they made enough of them to cause risk to the average traveler, it would be easy to clean with a high power remote broadcaster from a distance.

      to photograph the bar code containing the KEY on the printed page.

      True, I have been to barcelona airport at 2am, and could have placed a camera just as easily (unmanned offices), but a camera has a high signal to noise ratio.

      rfid scanner gets every bit of info, including a high quality photo, and doesn't have to be hid where visible. With the rfid download, even I could generate all kinds of ID's, drivers license, and passports, easy money with thousands of id's per day I could even be picky taking photos that look reasonably similar to myself.

      Also a 200 euro camera couldn't be placed anywhere (must be line of sight to a reasonable place to see a open passport) and it will not automaticaly recognize the barcode, photo..., and won't be able to download a exact duplicate of the ID if it did. the perp would have to have constant WiFi access, to zoom the passport, and grab images, or take gigs of video, to be able to sort out something useable later.

      unlike the rfid broadcast, which is the exact 15k bundle of data (just a guess), that any ID thief would want, already sorted out for you.
  2. Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Salvance · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip." Hmmm... it's also hard to see why anyone would want my credit card information, SSN, address, etc. I'm sure nobody really wants to know any personal information about me at all, and I'm sure nobody would ever want to forge any of my identifying documentation.

    Something is just wrong with the UK's Home Office. Today I read that they will now classify panty theifs as sex offenders, receiving the same long-term classification on the sex offenders' registry as child abusers, rapists, and child pornographers.

    --
    Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
    1. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Miseph · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Something is just wrong with the UK's Home Office. Today I read that they will now classify panty theifs as sex offenders, receiving the same long-term classification on the sex offenders' registry as child abusers, rapists, and child pornographers.

      That's because stealing panties is a classic sign of a real sex offender getting up the courage to do something more serious. Unless I'm mistaken, and the purpose of this is to go after girls who steal from Victoria's Secret... but somehow I think not.
      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    2. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by ronanbear · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Today I read that they will now classify panty theifs as sex offenders, receiving the same long-term classification on the sex offenders' registry as child abusers, rapists, and child pornographers. Actually that's done with good reason. They are sex offenders and there is a high enough instance of such offenders going on to commit more serious offences to warrent classifying them as high risk. As such they shouldn't be allowed to hold jobs which give them unsupervised access to and influence over children. The sex offenders register is not about (and should never be about punishment). It's about protection. Keeps high risk individuals out of high risk occupations. It's the same as not wanting people with a criminal record in the police force. You want to be able to trust your policemen to be able to abide by the law, it's paramount. If you want to trust your children, the most precious thing you have, to someone then you don't want them to have ANY record.
      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    3. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

      they will now classify panty theifs as sex offenders

            Thank God stealing a bra is still ok...I was worried for a second there.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the purpose of this is to go after girls who steal from Victoria's Secret... but somehow I think not.

      No, the purpose of this is to have a bigger book to throw at people who rob houses. Can the lady of the house remember how many pairs she had? No? Well, then the guy MUST have stolen some, let's make him a sex offender on top of all the other little crimes we're tagging him with!

      Once upon a time punishment was supposed to fit the crime, at this rate, how long before we start executing people for coughing during a movie?

    5. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by sedmonds · · Score: 1, Insightful
      You want to be able to trust your policemen to be able to abide by the law, it's paramount.


      I don't know where you live, but I trust the police here about as far as I can throw them. I'll accept that most police are probably perfectly trustworthy as individuals, but it doesn't take many bad seeds to make the whole group untrustworthy. You just don't know if you're getting one of the 90 good ones, or one of the 10 lemons.

      Based on the "thin blue line" good 'ole boys club that protects police from being held accountable for anything from traffic violations to premeditated murder, and the number of flagrant abuses of power by police that appear in reputable news sources, I don't trust policemen. Even if 90% of them are trustworthy as individuals, when they protect criminals in uniform they are no longer trustworthy as a group.
    6. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 3, Funny

      Those are the longest leaps of logic I've seen since "I don't know where the universe came from" -> "God must have done it". Impressive.

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    7. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by ronanbear · · Score: 1

      True. Now imagine how much worse it would be if there were criminals before they joined. In theory they're already law-abiding when they start. If you don't think the standard is high enough now then imagine if it were to be lowered.

      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    8. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by painkillr · · Score: 0

      the conviction would be contingent on the theif being caught w/ the panties

    9. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

      is that a confession to grand theft panty?

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
    10. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      As such they shouldn't be allowed to hold jobs which give them unsupervised access to and influence over children.

      Why? These are sex offenders, which is different from pedophiles. Why would a rapist be interested in your kids?

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    11. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by timmarhy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      what a fucking crock of shit. someone stealing a womens underwear off the line is a LONG jump to being a pedo. what possible connection can there be between a weirdo taking an adult womens underwear and them being sexually attracted to children? thats right there isn't. it's same bogus thinking that links homosexuals to pedo. and that crap has been debunked for decades. oh and as for your "it's about protection" argument, yeah they will take your liberty all the while softly whisphering in your ear "it's for your protection"

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    12. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Awesome. Let's book kids who sneak some booze when they're underage with the same charge as heroin dealers. They're probably just building up the courage to do something more serious. Of course, there's always the whacky notion that the punishment should fit the crime that was actually committed rather than what we think they might do in the future.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    13. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Vegeta99 · · Score: 0

      Did you actually do a sociological study, or did you just pull that assumption out of your twisted panties?

      Oh, ok.

      Not saying that Home Office did either, tho.

    14. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by oohshiny · · Score: 1

      They are sex offenders and there is a high enough instance of such offenders going on to commit more serious offences to warrent classifying them as high risk.

      Says who? Paranoid politicians bent on reelection through spreading fear? Police chiefs who want more power?

      If you want to trust your children, the most precious thing you have, to someone then you don't want them to have ANY record.

      You also have a responsibility: not to turn your children into paranoid imbeciles before loosing them on society, and it looks to me like you're failing. Besides, under what circumstances do you have to "trust" your children to anyone? Both my parents were working, but growing up, I don't remember ever being left in the care of any strangers in situations where I could have been abused or harmed. Maybe you're simply a bad parent.

      And maybe we should throw constitutional rights out the window for the sake of the children and take away all children from their parents at birth; after all, a large percentage of child abuse and molestation happens at the hands of family members. Think of the children! We need to protect them from this danger!

    15. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by oohshiny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's because stealing panties is a classic sign of a real sex offender getting up the courage to do something more serious.

      Says who? You? Heck, why don't we start arresting people for thought crimes, then?

      In a nation of laws, people get punished for what they actually do, not for some prediction of what they might or might not do in the future. Apparently, you prefer to live in a totalitarian nation, in which the state can charge anybody with absolutely anything if they just so please.

    16. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Funny

      In related news, the number of women on the sex offender list has skyrocketed due in part to a crackdown on shoplifting at Victoria's Secret.

    17. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by nemoyspruce · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Says who? You? Heck, why don't we start arresting people for thought crimes, then? In a nation of laws, people get punished for what they actually do, not for some prediction of what they might or might not do in the future. Apparently, you prefer to live in a totalitarian nation, in which the state can charge anybody with absolutely anything if they just so please." Yeah! Apparently YOU dont deserve to be TIME person of the year! oh, was that in another thread..damn.
    18. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is up to the person who makes the positive claim to provide evidence for his claim. The positive claim here is that those who engage in theft of undergarments are also likely pedophiles. The negative claim here is that an overlap between these two seperate populations has not been shown.

      In closing, take your smug 'you don't know, you're just guessing' and learn what the burden of proof fallacy is and why it is a fallacy.

    19. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by RexRhino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is absolute bullshit. There has been absolutly no research to determine if an 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old classmate, or a guy streaking as part of a college fraternity prank, or a guy who has consentual sex with other adult men in a public-park lavatory, or the couple who park up on "lovers lane" to have sex, or a married couple who has oral sex in Arkansas, or the 90% of "sex offenders" who never did anything that wouldn't be legal or a misdemeanor if they where only done in San Fransico or Amsterdam, are likely to do anything!

      Only a tiny fraction of the people who are being branded second class citizens for life, and being subjected to a lifetime of harrasment and violence at the hands of vigilantes, did anything remotely like rape or molestation. Most commited only voluntary, consentual sex acts with people their own age.

      Sex offender lists, and their sister paranoia law enforcement, Do Not Fly list, are part of our societies current irrational, paranoid, fear of boogie men - being afraid of sex offenders or terrorists depending on where you live and your political beliefs. Personally, I am far more disturbed by the people who believe their friends or neighbors are all devious sexual preditors lurking to rape their kids - If anything I would be far more worried about the guy who is constantly paranoid of sex offenders (ala Mark Foley), than I would the college football players who get arrested doing a panty raid on the girls sorority. Or I would be far more frightened of the people who think everyone named "Mohammed" may be a terrorist, than I would be of someone named "Mohammed" sitting next to me on a plane.

      Maybe read Author Miller's "The Crucible" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crucible ) to get a good idea of the sort of Moral Panic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic ) our society is in today.

    20. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      Here is the rest of the quote for those of you who don't want to RTFA:

      "Other than the photograph, which could be obtained easily by other means, they would gain no information that they did not already have - so the whole exercise would be pointless: the only information stored on the ePassport chip is the basic information you can see on the personal details page."

      The spokesman said the chip was one part of the security features of the ePassport.

      He said: "Being able to copy this does not mean that the passport can be forged or imitated for illegal or unauthorised use.

      "British ePassports are designed in such a way as to make chip substitution virtually impossible and the security features of the passport render the forgery of the complete document impractical."

      So no, they would not be able to access confidential information like credit card numbers. And I'm really curious why you think a British passport would have a social security number.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    21. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by nwbvt · · Score: 0

      A crime was committed. The panty thief stole personal property for the purpose of getting a sexual thrill, and in virtually every society stealing is illegal. He never said panty thieves were getting charged with the same crime as rapists or child molesters, merely that they were being grouped with them as sex offenders since their crimes are sexual in nature. So your analogy would make more sense if it was that kids caught drinking were classified as substance abusers.

      And yes, we often take in consideration the person's motive when assigning punishment, hence why someone who kills in self defense is not going to get the same punishment as someone who kills out of a motive like greed.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    22. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by kanani · · Score: 1

      your problem is you don't have enough friends who are police officers. If you did, you'd feel a bit different about that "thin blue line" wouldn't you. After all, if your the one "not being held accountable" for traffic violation, well that ain't so bad.

    23. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since say 10% of the population (regardless of whether they are police) is lets say "bad". I suppose you don't trust anyone in the world then, right? Afterall, in your world, unless everyone is perfect, the whole lot is bad and untrustworthy.

      That's a super philosophy. I really hope you're consistent with it.

    24. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, it's theft.. but how do you know they're getting a sexual thrill out of it? And that it's a sexual crime?
      Some people might just like to be steal people's underwear, because they think it's a funny thing to do. (Though of course, yes, there are some people who... really like underwear.)

    25. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by TheLink · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe we should start classifying adulterers as sex offenders too?

      So someone who steals a magazine (or an online porn account) for the purpose of getting a sexual thrill should be classified as a sex offender?

      Oh is it only because the victim felt violated? What if a mugger looks "strangely" at a lady after taking her purse and other valuables (ID, camera phone etc) but lets her go, and she feels violated? Should the mugger be classified as a sex offender too?

      Or what if the mugger got a sexual thrill out of her photos?

      Sure motive is important, but I think people should be a bit careful before they start creating the Ministry of Thoughtcrime.

      --
    26. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      No, only some of them will be "sex offenders." That Mirror article said that it was up to law enforcement to determine which panty thefts, child kidnappings, and "harrassments" are counted as sex crimes, and that these decisions would be made on a case-by-case basis.
      Is that better or worse than consistent registering? Is it better because some people in these classes escape being registered, or is it worse because there is no way to be sure if certain activities will get you more than jail and fines?

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    27. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by hyfe · · Score: 1
      Thank God stealing a bra is still ok...I was worried for a second there.
      You know, they do sell bras at the store.....

      Alternativly, you could just lose some weight.

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
    28. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Since say 10% of the population (regardless of whether they are police) is lets say "bad". I suppose you don't trust anyone in the world then, right? Afterall, in your world, unless everyone is perfect, the whole lot is bad and untrustworthy.

      In other words, "If everybody else does it, then it is OK for us to do it."

      What a perfect example of exactly that kind of "cop logic" used to justify the thin blue line that the promotes the distrust that the GP expressed.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    29. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      The stolen 'zines and porn accounts might actually be covered. That Mirror article didn't just say "panty theft"--it said theft.
      The mugger giving that strange look might get classed as a sex offender: "harassment" is also on that list in the article. Whether he is classed as one depends on what the British police do, and (if I undestood it correctly), they decide who's committing sexual offenses on a case-by-case basis.
      This could be like US hate-crime laws, only worse. (America doesn't have a registry for hate-crime offenders yet...)

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    30. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by newt0311 · · Score: 1

      An argument which basically says that don't trust people until you knwo them. Frankly, that doesn't seem like anything really off to me. more like common sense...

    31. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      No, British passports don't have Social Security numbers. But I imagine that having someone steal a National Health Service number or your National ID number would be just as bad. And what details are on the personal-details pages of the UK passport database? I'll bet all the NHS numbers are there.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    32. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've stolen panties in the past. 3 times in total infact, but I'd never commit a serious crime. I don't see the harm in taking a pair of underwear when she has a draw full, where as I do see a problem with viciously raping a girl and leaving her a broken mess for life.

      Go figure on that one.

    33. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by quigonn · · Score: 1

      your problem is you haven't been beaten up enough by police men. If you had, you'd feel a bit different about that "thin blue line" wouldn't you.

      --
      A monkey is doing the real work for me.
    34. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why the hell would they be?

      A passport is an identifying document, not a repository of all information about a person.
      In fact, I'd be willing to go as far as to say that there is no repository of all information about an average passport holding citizen.

    35. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by kanani · · Score: 1

      "your problem is you haven't been beaten up enough by police men" i don't know that I'd classify not being beaten up as a problem

    36. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by vidarh · · Score: 1
      If you want to trust your children, the most precious thing you have, to someone then you don't want them to have ANY record.

      Actually, you'd rather want to avoid handing them over to their dads, brothers, uncles or other relatives and family friends, as in the UK a NSPCC (National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children) survey a few years back showed that 75% of all sexual abuse of children was carried out by family members, close family friends and other persons known to the child - with the odds of abuse being higher the closer someone was (i.e. dads/brothers are the most likely offenders). The odds of your child being at risk when placed with a licensed child care provider is far smaller, and was so even before all these measures were put in place.

      I'm not saying the register isn't useful, but there is reason to question a) who gets put on it, and b) how much it's emphasized, as it draws attention away from the fact that by far the biggest risk to a child is it's own family and their friends.

    37. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by quigonn · · Score: 1

      The point is: if you had experienced how it is to be a victim of police brutality, you wouldn't trust the police anymore, either.

      --
      A monkey is doing the real work for me.
    38. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

      I'd guess that most people you meet would probably love to give you a kicking so the police are probably only doing what any other decent person would.

      Personally I've noticed that peope who start off being antagonistic towards the police because they're all "fasicst bully boys", "should have better things to do", "are corrupt" etc can occasionally be treated less well than people who behave reasonably.

    39. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by ahillen · · Score: 1

      "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip." Hmmm... it's also hard to see why anyone would want my credit card information, SSN, address, etc. I'm sure nobody really wants to know any personal information about me at all, and I'm sure nobody would ever want to forge any of my identifying documentation.

      I guess, the point he was trying to make was: to read out the RFID chip, the guys in the article obviously used the right key. The key to read the information from the passport is basically the owner's identity: name, passport number etc. So it is relatively easy to read out the chip once you have the passport, but you don't gain any information, because you could just as well open you eyes and look at the document to get it.

    40. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by quigonn · · Score: 1

      Did I say anything like that? All I can tell you is that it's no fun when you're walking down the street and suddenly get beaten up by a few police men and you only realize later that there's been a demo nearby. And when you try to fight that abuse with legal means, you have no chance because of the esprit de corps within the police. And that's the point where people usually stop trusting the police.

      --
      A monkey is doing the real work for me.
    41. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      Maybe read Author Miller's "The Crucible" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crucible [wikipedia.org] ) to get a good idea of the sort of Moral Panic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic [wikipedia.org] ) our society is in today.

      This confuses me somewhat, because everyone I talk to thinks that security theatre, politicians taking a stand against... whatever, and all the other dramatics and public issues going on today is absolute bollocks. Which society is in Moral (or otherwise) Panic, and how exactly did I cease to be a part of it?

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    42. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Well - there must be methods of protecting possible victims if we know that the crime is being in a making.
      OTOH how perverted is justice and people working there if they think panties theft is a sex offence. I can agree that it is a terrorist activity. After all such panties, especially if worn and not washed, are known to cause such itching among security officials that they are likely to miss the bombs packed below said panties in a travel bags.

      I think we should start our moral renewal comaign by searching properties of politicians and security officials - I am sure amount of illegal substances, pornography and credit card receipts from local brothels and stolen panties would be sufficient to send the bastards to hard labour camps for forseeable future and we would have peace of mind for a change.

    43. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Nappa48 · · Score: 1

      Hey Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power level?

    44. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Talchas · · Score: 1
      It is up to the person who makes the positive claim to provide evidence for his claim. The positive claim here is that those who engage in theft of undergarments are also likely pedophiles. The negative claim here is that an overlap between these two seperate populations has not been shown.
      And even if this is true, you have decide whether or not you should mark them as a sex offender for this. Even if this is true, then it still doesn't seem (to me) to be worthy of that punishment.
      --
      As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century,free flow of information is the only safeguard against...
    45. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by ronanbear · · Score: 1

      That's true. The highest risk category is step-fathers.

      If you don't think that people would advocate taking measures against step-fathers there is serious lobbying starting to open the sex offenders register to allow single mothers to have their boyfriends vetted. Wouldn't surprise me if it ends up happening.

      You have some control of your own home. You can control access and supervise. When they go to school etc. you place them in someone else's care. Until they come home you don't have any control and that's why it's such a big deal to people. It's an effective protection for the other 25%. Interestingly, the more effective such measures the higher the proportion of sexual abuse carried out by family will become.

      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    46. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by nwbvt · · Score: 1

      Did you read what I posted? There are no personal details in there. All the information that is in there can be determined through much easier means. Hence why the person was quoted as saying she couldn't think of a reason why someone would go to all this trouble to get the information. The Slashdot story just quoted part of her statement (without the explanation) in order to illicit a response. They were just trolling.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    47. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by devilspgd · · Score: 1

      My question is rather simple: Why is the same information being stored electronically on the passport as is printed on it?

      A much safer and more secure method would be to simply include a unique ID on the RFID, and have passport agents reference that ID against their database and pull up a copy of the passport as it was issued.

      This would completely eliminate the risk of someone tampering with or altering a passport, and it almost completely eliminates the risk of data theft too.

      --
      Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
    48. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool of people! it's Britain we are talking about. :)

    49. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm... it's also hard to see why anyone would want my credit card information, SSN, address, etc. I'm sure nobody really wants to know any personal information about me at all, and I'm sure nobody would ever want to forge any of my identifying documentation.

      No, it's easy to know why someone might want those personal details, as they could gain something from them.

      What exactly do you allege someone will gain from knowing what you look like, knowing what city you were born in, and knowing when your passport was issued?

    50. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Loco+Moped · · Score: 1

      A crime was committed. The panty thief stole personal property for the purpose of getting a sexual thrill,

      Wow. And you know this how?

      No matter what the topic, there are always statements like yours.
      Why not just admit the truth? The ONLY thing your statement proves is that YOU personally find womens' panties a sexual turn-on.
      Apparently you also believe you should be punished for that. Which is another kink all by itself.

    51. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Loco+Moped · · Score: 1

      That's because stealing panties is a classic sign of a real sex offender getting up the courage to do something more serious.

      Have you ever masturbated?
      Obviously, that's a sign of a rapist getting up the courage to go after a real woman.
      Let's just cut it off now, and make the world safe for democracy!

    52. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      Besides, under what circumstances do you have to "trust" your children to anyone? Both my parents were working, but growing up, I don't remember ever being left in the care of any strangers in situations where I could have been abused or harmed. Maybe you're simply a bad parent.
      You never went to public school, summer camp, day care, church, etc? Maybe your parents were the bad ones.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    53. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      My question is rather simple: Why is the same information being stored electronically on the passport as is printed on it?

      A much safer and more secure method would be to simply include a unique ID on the RFID, and have passport agents reference that ID against their database and pull up a copy of the passport as it was issued. Nerds! Always coming up with a more complicated way to do it. That would require a persistent network connection to a reliable database system. This is simply designed as a check on the printed info that can be made with a simple, dumb, appliance-like device. The idea is that even if you can forge the paper and picture document, you can't forge the RFID chip to match it.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    54. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Jo+Owen · · Score: 1

      The GP said 'influence', which is the crux of the argument, people who influence our children shouldn't be deviant in any area, and sexual deviancy is a particularly touchy area. (Please excuse the pun)

    55. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by nwbvt · · Score: 1

      No, all it proves is that I have a basic understanding of human psychology while you are naive enough to think something like "well maybe they just want to wear the panties".

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    56. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      That's really none of your concern. What business is it of yours if the daycare you go to has a BDSM freak on staff? Presumably, they know to keep that stuff away from the kids anyway. I think you're just hung up on sex.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    57. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Yes, I read your comment. Yes, I read the article. Yes, I read that quote.
      The official said that there was nothing on the chip that could not be found on the personal details page of the passport. I understand that part. I understand that it might be easier to get the info by stealing the passport.
      It's just that I assumed that a personal details page would include personal details. Surely you understand how I might get that idea.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    58. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      The society in Moral Panic is that society that trusts the mainstream media or the religious-right media. Or in this case, UK Sun readers. You ceased to be a part of it when you decided to get your news from Slashdot.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    59. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by devilspgd · · Score: 1

      And it's a good theory, as long as the RFID is safe, and secure. It's not.

      Perhaps smartcards would be a better route to go?

      --
      Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
    60. Re:Was the Home Office spokesman an idiot? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      Oh, it's everyone then?
      Sorry, didn't know there was consensus.

      Hey everybody! There's consensus! We can stop all the useless security measures!

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  3. and if your name is written on said panties by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Funny

    it is also identity theft.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:and if your name is written on said panties by prichardson · · Score: 5, Funny

      If my name is written on someone else's panties, I demand to know why!

      ob Simpsons:
      Skinner: Oh, it's a miracle no one was hurt.
      Otto: I stand on my record - fifteen crashes and not a single fatality!
      Lou: Let's see your license, pal.
      Otto: No can do. Never got one. But, if you need proof of my identity, I wrote my name on my underwear... Oh wait, these aren't mine!
      Skinner: Well that tears it! Until you get a license and wear your own underwear, mister, you are suspended without pay!

      --
      Help I'm a rock.
  4. In other news, bureaucrats develop sentience by zuki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As it may be, the people in charge of budgetary approval for the programs which put all of these RFID solutions
    into place will steadfastly deny that anything is wrong until they are forced to do so, as agreeing that those are
    potentially high security risks would otherwise equate it with having to backtrack on what they previously approved,
    even though they were amply forewarned by many in the security-related field.

    It's really about not losing face at any cost, lest people start questioning other methods they employ.

    Human nature, really. Look no further than the voting machines controversy for parallels here in the US.

    Z.

  5. At least they can publish this... by rrohbeck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now another researcher has shown how to clone a European e-Passport in under 5 minutes.

    Thanks to a software he himself has developed, called RFdump, he downloads the passport's data onto his computer and then onto a blank chip.


    How long would it take for some 3 letter agency to show up at their door in the US?

    1. Re:At least they can publish this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ~5min I would think.

    2. Re:At least they can publish this... by Nasajin · · Score: 1
      How long would it take for some 3 letter agency to show up at their door in the US?
      If the computer's not connected to the net, then never.
    3. Re:At least they can publish this... by DigitAl56K · · Score: 1

      Why would they bother? The details of the encryption are already public. This guy announced that he wrote some code to do it. How many other people with perhaps more sinister intent have already done the same unannounced?

    4. Re:At least they can publish this... by Almost-Retired · · Score: 1

      How long would it take for some 3 letter agency to show up at their door in the US?

      Blow it. First they'd have to prove you did it, and pray tell, if the thing is a perfect clone, then by definition there is not going to be a way thats 100% certifiably accurate to tell them apart. You will be 100% at the mercy of the justice system, and it has amply proved many times that it doesn't have a clue, and couldn't buy one if the money was appropriated for it.

      I predict the first 100 cases that lead to an arrest, they will get the wrong person 99% of the time because he's the one identified by the cloned passport. If they have the cloned passport, and the real person still has his, some judge might get it but it'll be dicey. The innocent will still be out his life savings for attorneys fees.

      This whole fscking RFID thingy was a product looking for a market and the proponents don't give a shit who they kill to get that marketshare. Its been a classic case of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull shit. And so far all we're getting is bull shit because the dummies that authorize this crap believe the sales brochures are the word of God Almighty. I have a phrase I apply to such people and its not printable in mixed company.

      If they handed me one of those things, I'd probably take a hammer to the chip just to make sure it didn't work. There is enough crap on the back of my drivers license, but at least its not copyable without me handing it to them as its a highly compacted barcode.

      --
      Cheers, Gene

    5. Re:At least they can publish this... by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      How do you know MI6 won't show up at their actual door? (Or MI5, if they did it in England...)

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    6. Re:At least they can publish this... by Cpt.+Fwiffo · · Score: 1

      I think it's a four-letter agency which zealously protects against copying of (motion) pictures.

      Although you could be implying that there are 3-letter agencies interested enough in the technology to show up on your doorstep with a job offer.

    7. Re:At least they can publish this... by devilspgd · · Score: 1

      1) A hammer won't do a ton of good against your average RFID. Try a microwave.

      2) The passport isn't readable withing being able to look at information printed inside the passport. The only thing the RFID does is give a digitally signed version of the passport to verify against the printed paper.

      --
      Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
    8. Re:At least they can publish this... by Almost-Retired · · Score: 1

      I have one of those too (microwave, does a bag of Orvills finest in 2 minutes).

      Its still all bull shit IMNSHO. Because from the rfid's output, the passport itself can be forged.

      --
      Cheers, Gene

    9. Re:At least they can publish this... by devilspgd · · Score: 1

      Potentially... But at least as far as the current "crack" goes, the passport itself needs to be visible first. This means I can forge a passport if I can see it, with or without RFID.

      All that being said, I'd much rather they drop data from the RFID, just include an identifier (be it RFID, barcode, serial number printed inside the passport, whatever) that lets the border guard look up your information from their database electronically -- This is far more secure, since it raises the bar from being able to duplicate a physical item to additionally being able to compromise the passport database, plus it virtually completely eliminates the possibility of data being stolen.

      --
      Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
    10. Re:At least they can publish this... by Almost-Retired · · Score: 1

      Thats a very good idea of how to do a very bad idea, but it also raises the spector of all the communications infrastructure that would entail, and the possibility of that data being stolen in transit. Much more difficult, but phishers are a determined bunch. It took all of an hour after my MC card was merged into the BOA monster before I got the first of several hundred phishing attempts from what looks like a BOA site. Yeah, sure, and pigs fly too. Taking off and landing on that ice covered strip in hell.

      My previous experience with BOA was very distastefull and costly at a time in my life when I didn't have 100 dollar bills to play with. Not wanting to repeat that performance, by ATM/credit card from my bank (not BOA related) is now getting the use the MC card formerly got.

      --
      Cheers, Gene

    11. Re:At least they can publish this... by devilspgd · · Score: 1

      Okay, simplify... smartcard instead of RFID.

      --
      Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
  6. RFID is not for security by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0

    It is merely an electronic mechanism that replaces error-prone human readers with electronic systems that can read the same information into a computer system and automatically link the information with a database for easy identification of possible problems.

    No one has shown that the passport can be forged. No one has shown that the RFID on the passport can be overwritten. No one has shown that an agent who receives a clones passport can't tell it from an official one. The RFID itself doesn't contain any information that wouldn't be accessible by simply reading the passport.

    RFID does not enhance security in any way, but it does not detract from security in any way either. It is simply part of the progression of technology from an error-prone human system to a reliable electronic system.

    1. Re:RFID is not for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "reliable electronic system" is a oxymoron.

    2. Re:RFID is not for security by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

      I see you buy your dictionaries from the same place as Alanis Morissette.

    3. Re:RFID is not for security by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      No one has shown that the RFID on the passport can be overwritten.

      Of course it can be. All you'd need to do would be to somehow zap the old RFID and attach another one in an inconspicuous fashion - possibly somehow inject it into the edge or the paperboard cover. Either that, or have a transmitter (concealed in a cell phone?) that happens to transmit the correct data at higher power when the passport is swiped. To activate it, pretend to scratch your leg.

      But, same as before, the passport # keys to a database of passport data, so (at least some) immigration inspectors will be able to verify the authenticity of the thing to some extent at least.

      -b.

    4. Re:RFID is not for security by Phyrexia · · Score: 1

      TFA says that the passport can be cloned.

    5. Re:RFID is not for security by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Sure it makes things wildly insecure. You know lazy tired TSA workers will only glance at the passport and just trust what the display says. The usefulness works like this... I'm an evil terrorist, I know I can't get on planes.... I can remotely grab another passengers RFID tag in line at the boarding pass counter with a ticket on same flight I wish to perform evil deeds... even easier than pickpocketing!! Now I get THEIR pass info, forge my hacked RFID chip with their passport ID...it doesn't have to be a "real" ID chip, just report to the reader like one. remember, it will probably be in those little folders anyway... as long as the reader sees my hacked on first, and again the agent is too lazy to remove the document from it's case and inspect the passport for tampering, I'm in with their ticket and ID...


      Before the goons come to get me!! I'll say I know NOTHING about these new passports beyond what's on slashdot. I got no expertise in RFID beyond looking at it. A good security system should have something in place to prevent this sort of "cloning" attack... you'd hope like hell that somebody's thought about this!!! and they don't just send the goons to cover it up.. after all, that's the new policy for scientific reports now... and has been the policy for security reports since 9/11.

    6. Re:RFID is not for security by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I think it goes this way:

      "I'm a terrorist, I try to get on the plane using MY GENUINE credentials, just like the ones who flew into the WTC".

      So maybe the they should start adding a "good/evil" field to passports to make it easier to stop evil people from getting on the plane.

      Ah, but that might stop a few CEOs and politicians from flying! Maybe even a lawyer or two ;). Think of the poor ones who can't afford their own planes...

      So maybe they need a "I will harm my fellow passengers" field.

      But that might stop a few presidents from flying! Maybe even vice presidents too ;).

      How about a simple "Terrorist Y/N"?

      Ah, yes PERFECT right?

      Another thing:

      why would anyone try the exact same thing nowadays? Previously the standard procedure was the terrorist would take the plane somewhere, and if the right things were done, the passengers get to live. But the rules of the game have been changed.

      Nowadays, if you announce you are a terrorist, maybe half the passengers on board will jump you at any opportunity and be willing to die trying. I doubt even holding a kid/girl hostage would work now. Heck if passengers succeed in restraining you, you might learn a few things about terror in the sky, and plastic forks ;).

      So as long as you reduce the odds of bombs getting on the plane and unauthorized people to the cockpit, you've reduced the risk significantly.

      --
    7. Re:RFID is not for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry bud, but a terrible FRAUD has been committed. These chips have COST people money, and for no tangible benefit, ie cost/benefit analysis was shit, and the person who signed off on it should get the sack.

      Reading the passports, or errors was never a problem. If they were planning to add information, this too is now HISTORY. And the people who have wet dreams, dreaming about passengers scanning themselves through, is also dreaming.

      Rule #1 - Any token can be forged.
      Rule #2 - Human is superior to any electronic gizmo
      Rule #3 - Rules 1 and 2 are involitile.

      PS: If ACTIVE security is introduced, one of the 132 possible countries may blab the key(s) - after all, they must read them. Bet .ru and .cn are rubbing their hand with glee.

  7. completely ignores the point by spoco2 · · Score: 1

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."
    Even if the info on the chip is just the same as what's printed in plain sight as they say... it's still defeating one of the security measures in short shrift. How is that not a concern? The fact that the electronic portion of it can be read and copied without actually needing the item (just need to be near it) is a great concern.

    Also, the article states that the key to some encrypted information on the chip is something that's printed, in plain sight, on the passport... oh man.

    It's a scary world when those who are old and have little clue about technology (the politicians) are told they need a high tech solution to a security issue. They hear a buzzword (RFID) and tell their people "Get something that used RFID into market STAT!"

    Plus, I bet they don't even know what STAT means.

    1. Re:completely ignores the point by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a scary world when those who are old and have little clue about technology (the politicians) are told they need a high tech solution to a security issue.

            Careful. The hippies used to complain about how all the old farts in power didn't have a clue back then. Now they're running things, and look where we are. I shudder to think about what the world will be like when it's YOUR turn...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:completely ignores the point by humungusfungus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Plus, I bet they don't even know what STAT means.

      Of course they do, many of them are so old, latin was probably their mother-tongue.

      --
      No sig.
    3. Re:completely ignores the point by spoco2 · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't so much the generation itself, but moreso the people who end up being polititions.

      As Billy Connelly so aptly said once "The desire to be a politician should automatically disqualify you from ever being one" (Quoted from memory, may be paraphrasing)

    4. Re:completely ignores the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Also, the article states that the key to some encrypted information on the chip is something that's printed, in plain sight, on the passport... oh man.

      I'm no fan of the new passports, but if I understand it correctly ...

      The passports are encrypted with a bunch of information which is printed on the passport (and probably in a barcode or some other machine readable format), yes. A few different items make up a key. The RFID chip doesn't automatically spit out the encrypted information when blindly queried, but only if presented with an request derived from the key data. So, it's not like you arbitrarily query passports in people's bags and crack the encypted response later, because it won't respond if you don't know the key. And guessing that key to get the data would involve you sitting next to the passport for a Long Time.

      This key allows someone on a desk with visual access (and barcode reader or mag swipe) to the passport to query it by presenting the right key and thereby "verify" the passport with the info on the RFID.

      Now it should be relatively (for clever crypto people) simple given this that someone can copy the passport (it would suprise me that the data was not signed by some PKI tough) as they already what the key is.

      So anyway, that's why the key is based on printed info, and why you cannot read abitrary passports without seeing them to get the key fields.

      That's all down to my (incomplete) understanding of it based on watching a film with one of these crypto guys and some googling afterwards.

    5. Re:completely ignores the point by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the key needs to be printed somewhere on the passport.

      The big, huge security hole though, is that the key is made up of the passport number, the date of birth of the holder, and the expiry date, none of which are hard to come by. For example, the postman delivering your new passport can probably find your date of birth (when did you late get a birthday card?), and can make a pretty good guess as to when it expires (10 years plus or minus a few days), so if he can guess what the passport number is, then he can read and clone your passport without even opening the envelope!

      I don't know what idiot dreamed up using that particular data as the 'secret' key, they deserve to be shot. Why not make the key some random digit string, printed inside the passport in machine-readable text? Then it would at least be impossible to read the passport without opening it.

    6. Re:completely ignores the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Douglas Adams, not Billy Connelly.

    7. Re:completely ignores the point by spoco2 · · Score: 1

      Douglas Adams, not Billy Connelly.
        Well, I saw Billy say it in a stand up performance (the one with his name in large pink letters behind him), and a quick check on the web for the quote finds it being attributed to him by all I come across.
    8. Re:completely ignores the point by mwillems · · Score: 1

      No, the hippies are NOT running things. I guess I am an aged hippie and if I were running things we would have a biometric/RFID passport when hell freezes over.

      --

      ---
      BDOS ERR ON A:>
    9. Re:completely ignores the point by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      It's conceivable that both said the same thing, in their own way, with no influence from the other. From The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (emphasis mine):

      The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

      To summarize: it is a well known fact, that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

      Words of wisdom!

    10. Re:completely ignores the point by HappyEngineer · · Score: 1

      They both may have said it, but several variations on that quote were present in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (and possibly a few of the other books in that series.).

      See: http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/27540.html

    11. Re:completely ignores the point by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 1

      See my other reply to the GP, the security hole is that the key is make up of information that is not single-purpose. The expiry date of your passport, you date of birth, and your passport number. None of these are particularly secret, and someone could obtain them without arousing any suspicion and read the passport from your pocket (or the envelope it was posted in....).

      If, alternatively, the key was some random string that was ONLY used for the key, then (1) it wouldn't be possible to guess it without opening the passport, and (2) it would be hard for someone to get the key without attracting interest.

      The receptionist at the youth hostel asking for your passport number, expiry and date of birth is not suspicious - indeed in some countries they are required to collect this information anyway. Then the bad guy doesn't even need to see your passport, it can be cloned while it remains in your back pocket. On the other hand, if the key was some random string then it would be a bit harder for the bad guy to obtain (although still not too hard).

      The new passports probably make it very difficult, if not impossible, to copy/steal a passport and substitute a different photo. But it sounds like they are ridiculously easy to clone, so instead of taking at minimum a few minutes with physical access to the passport, it now takes a few seconds with a remote scanner. If the bad guys work somewhere where lots of people are passing by (the reception of a youth hostel, for instance!), they can just wait until someone goes by who looks similar to the person they want the fake passport for. This is much harder to detect.

      I can see this as leading to a big push for more biometrics, in fact. "The terrorists have started cloning passports of similar looking people, to stop this we need to put your fingerprints and iris scan on the passport too!". Was this always the plan?

    12. Re:completely ignores the point by Fastolfe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not make the key some random digit string, printed inside the passport in machine-readable text? Then it would at least be impossible to read the passport without opening it.

      Off the top of my head (might be missing something obvious), by forcing the key to be made up of useful data, it becomes impossible to divorce the key from the holder's identifying information, as printed on the passport. By requiring the operator to enter the user's data as part of the key to decode the electronic data, it sort of requires that the printed data match the electronic data. Without this check, the operator would have to visually compare the two, which might make it slightly easier to attempt low-tech forgeries where the information doesn't actually match.

      Of course, even if that were one of their reasons behind the design, that wouldn't excuse them from not mixing the passport holder's data with a random number in the manner you suggest.

    13. Re:completely ignores the point by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 1

      The operator will never normally need to enter the data, it is in the machine-readable (optical) section of the passport.

    14. Re:completely ignores the point by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Newton Crosby? Is that you? (Please, someone get the reference so I don't feel like an old fart)

      --
      I hate printers.
  8. Open Rights Group - Biometric passport by rimberg · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Open Rights Group(Think UK EFF) have a wiki page that provideds more information on this an othere issues with the British Biometric Passport The European version of the biometric passport is planned to have digital imaging and fingerprint scan biometrics placed on the Radio Frequency chip. The government of UK thinks that the public has a negative opinion of RFID chips so instead they call it a contactless chip.

    1. Re:Open Rights Group - Biometric passport by bigberk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a huge difference between "RFID chips" and "contactless smart cards"! They both use the same frequency band and similar communication protocols, but RFID chips have no crypto while contactless smart cards have all the AES, MAC, etc. stuff plus secure filesystem storage.

      There is a huge difference, I keep posting this but nobody seems to get the point: the walmart RFID chips have zero crypto, but the passport, payment cards have a ton of crypto. You can't just dump their contents

      The government calls them contactless smart cards because that is what they are, of course the media and everyone else uses the blanket term "RFID" to refer to all of it and works themselves up into a frenzy while not understanding the characteristics of the technology.

  9. This is all FUD by goldcd · · Score: 1

    Yes I'm sure it's not very hard to 'read' what's stored on the Passport - but then it's never been very hard to visually look at it and read the paper - god knows how many photocopies there are of my passport in hotels and car-rentals across the planet.
    The point of the RFID passport et al is to be able to verify it's genuine. You wave the passport at a border, it summons the electronic version and a check can be made that they match - i.e. verifies that somebody hasn't inserted an alternate photo etc.
    If the RFID is just containing a serial number - then why not just use a barcode etc. If passport is broadcasting full details including photos, then the crack that's interesting is if somebody concocts their own passport - and then gets it recognized as a fully signed valid one.
    Seeing as most passport fraud is just a genuine one, obtained by a similar looking (or even using the photo of the person going to use it), non-travelling person - then all these schemes are pointless. The weakest link is right at the start with the passport application process. The person who issues your passport hasn't got the slightest clue who you are - and as passports by their very definition are international, if you have trouble getting one in one country, you can just try from another.

    1. Re:This is all FUD by rrohbeck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but then it's never been very hard to visually look at it and read the paper

      Not when it's in my pocket.

      I can't believe how juicy this is. Imagine being able to get your dirty fingers on the theft prevention system at the doors or a department store. Just a slight modification of the frequency and code, and let the harvesting begin.

    2. Re:This is all FUD by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      Right. Apparently you can buy readers off of Ebay for a couple bucks. Get to it, poser.

  10. huh? by jshackney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip.

    If no one would want to access that information, then why is it on the chip? Why even bother with the chip? Why even bother with the information?

    1. Re:huh? by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      The information on the chip is just information that is already printed on the passport. Having an RFID chip, however, makes it easier to read into a computer. Normally a border guard has to manually type your passport information into a computer. If you have ever waited 20 minutes for a border guard who doesn't speak or write english, to type in your passport information (imagine if you were trying to type up someone's cyrillic passport) - A quick swipe of an RFID card would turn the process into a 2 second swipe.

    2. Re:huh? by hughk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most modern passports have an OCR section now on the ID page (and this is a condition of visa-less entry into the US now). All international passports cary the main data in Latin characters as well as the original Cyrillic, Arabic. Hebrew or whatever. Technically this is a French transliteration, which may actually be a slightly different to the English.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    3. Re:huh? by JimBobJoe · · Score: 1

      Why even bother with the chip? Why even bother with the information?

      I believe that RFID chip manufacturers convinced the US (specifically Department of Homeland Security) that RFID chips were the best way to prevent passport fraud/theft and ensure proper identity, so the US forced that idea on top of the rest of the world by saying that only countries issuing RFID enabled passports would be visa waiver eligible.

    4. Re:huh? by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      Having made a road trip through former Soviet Republics not too long ago, I can assure you that at every border crossing my passport information was most certainly hand typed into a computer! Actually, in Russia too they had to hand type my information.

      At the U.S./Canada border, which I cross alot, they have an OCR that reads an ID code on the bottom of the front passport page - However, that doesn't contain all the information in the passport, that just links to a database which already contains your information if you are Canadian or U.S..

    5. Re:huh? by hughk · · Score: 1

      Which republics as a matter of interest? I used to do Russia and Uzbekistan on a regular basis.

      What the border guard were looking for (at least at the airport) was the visa info. This has the data that was laboriously entered at the issuing point. They just then compare this with the ID page. At least, that is what happens at the airport with the newer style visa vignettes (stuck on labels). The US Visa Waiver scheme requires machine readable passports. Whether they bother to read all that OCR or not is immaterial. It is now being implemented.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    6. Re:huh? by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      Russia, Azerbijan, Georgia, and Armenia... When crossing over the land borders, all information had to be typed by hand - as well as when I arrived in Moscow via air, although I think that might have been a computer problem.

      I had visas issued in Canada on a U.S. passport, but I am certain that was not the issue as my U.S. travel partners who got their visas in the U.S. had the same problem.

      I am getting off the topic though... Listen, I am as paranoid of the government as the next guy, probably even much more so. But an RFID in a passport isn't something that I am particularly worried about. The threat to my privacy or safety is minimal - especially considering that you have to leave your passport with a consolate if you want visas to so many countries (who knows what they do with them). I am much more disturbed by the fact that my life and indentity is stored in a peice of paper like a passport, than I am disturbed that someone (within 3 meters), might be able to read an RFID that I am from the U.S. (like it wasn't obvious already), my name (which they could get just by asking me), and that my passport was issued in Chicago.

      Given that more Americans are stuck by lightning than murdered while traveling every year, and given that my government and the government of the place I am visiting already have full access to that information anyway, I will take immediate convience of a quick passport swipe over some rather neglible risk.

  11. Then why put it on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would seem a logical question ...

    1. Re:Then why put it on? by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Simple: Now you can be blamed for crimes committed with a clone of your passport, because obviously such passports are impossible to clone.

    2. Re:Then why put it on? by finity · · Score: 1

      Ha, I'm trying to think of just what kind of crimes you can commit with a passport.

      Use of a passport as a deadly weapon.
      Destruction of public property with a passport.
      You could commit murder by dropping it off a sky scraper...

      Kind of like that cell-phone anti-theft-device commercial.

    3. Re:Then why put it on? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Sign into a hotel. Leave passport in hotel safe. Shoot a bunch of people from your balcony. Disappear.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Then why put it on? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Show duplicate passport when police show up, proving one of the passports to be a fake.

    5. Re:Then why put it on? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apply for a bank account/credit card... identity theft stuff. A passport is prime ID. I believe you can do as much with it as with a birth certificate (probably more since you cannot use a birth certificate to get back into the U.S. by air and soon by ground as well). In fact, I wouldn't doubt that you could order a duplicate birth certificate with it... or maybe go to a social security office with it and claim you lost your SSN card and would like to know the number. You could probably cause a lot of problems. Or if you were a terrorist from say Iran, you could fake a U.S. citizenship and get into the country without a hassle. Theft of someone's identity is very serious.

      And if they mess up the systems dealing with passports when they become required for all entries to the U.S. including ground entry from Mexico and Canada (and they *will* be required, it was just delayed for a year for ground crossings) there could be a HUGE impact. They are America's two biggest trading partners accounting for something like half of all foreign trade (Canada is the U.S.'s biggest trading partner... Mexico I believe is a close second and maybe soon to pass the Canadians). What if, for example, the trucks all of a sudden couldn't roll across the border because the driver's passports were messed up (in either direction by the way... what American driver is going to want to leave if he/she can't get back in)?

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    6. Re:Then why put it on? by KDR_11k · · Score: 0

      Birth certificates aren't valid ID for anyone over 16 here. These are european passports so they'd do jack for getting you into the US and I think most people would consider it suspicious if you use a passport instead of your personal ID card to identify yourself for domestic matters (e.g. opening a bank account). The passport would also have to undergo at least some modification to make sure the biometric information matches the person planning to spoof your identity.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    7. Re:Then why put it on? by Blappo · · Score: 1

      How about you name some of those heinous crimes for us.

      Honestly, how garbage like this gets modded up...

      Crimes committed with your passport. What a colossally silly thing to attempt to sell to people. You're as bad as the "terrorists are everywhere" scaremongers, but at least they're mildly entertaining.

      --
      Why are so many posts with factual errors modded up?
    8. Re:Then why put it on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you're saying all anyone has to do to have a rock-solid alibi for murder is to clone their own passport and leave it at a hotel?

    9. Re:Then why put it on? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      No, nor did I even hint that. All I did say was that exclude the evidence of a fake passport, you can provide your real passport.

    10. Re:Then why put it on? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      But my understanding is that the U.S. wants to use RFID passports too. Or am I mistaken?

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    11. Re:Then why put it on? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Probably but those would not necessarily exhibit the same behaviour as the european ones. E.g. the duping trick might not work with a US passport in the same way.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  12. HO: It's okay, the taxpayer pays for our failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost every government IT project is a complete failure in the UK. Strike up another win for cronyism and public-private partnerships. At least seeing that smug criminal Tony Blair imprisoned will take our minds off of how totally fucked the UK is.

  13. Could someone address the points raised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    1. They claim that there is little useful on a passport's details page. Can someone confirm whether this is the case for the purposes of general information theft?

    2. If the passport page contains anything useful, how easy or difficult will it be to get hold of this information? Can you stand next to someone in a queue and scan the passport in their carry bag, or do you actually need to hold it close? My ID card at work has an RFID chip, that works only at about 4cm.

    3. Is it correct that forging RFID passports will be more difficult? Obviously, if you used to have to manufacture a passport or switch a picture, and you now need to _both_ do that _and_ insert or change an RFID chip, then that raises the bar. So the followups to this question are;

    3a. Will passport controls be replaced by RFID scans, or in addition to? I would hardly think the former, but please inform.

    3b. Is it possible to change the information on an RFID chip without actually having physical access to the circuitry? As in, are there read/write scanners so you can avoid having to manufacture a chip and replacing it in a passport?

    If the answers to these are no, difficult, yes, in addition to and no/no, then I can certainly see it providing additional security. And vica versa. Someone in the know?

    1. Re:Could someone address the points raised? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      3. Is it correct that forging RFID passports will be more difficult? Obviously, if you used to have to manufacture a passport or switch a picture, and you now need to _both_ do that _and_ insert or change an RFID chip, then that raises the bar. So the followups to this question are;

      Not really. I'm sure RFID writers are cheap enough for those who "need" them anyway to afford them. The biometrics afford the security. You could have (say) a retinal scan or a point map of a face saved in the RFID chip and encrypted with a private/public key algorithm. The agency encodes it with a private key in a secure location. Then they decrypt it with a public key. Without knowing the private key, it'll be harder (nothing is impossible) to alter the bio. data. Also, keep the *same* data in a database. Not all border posts will have connection to the database, but with those which do, you can use the passport number to pull the database contents to see if the passport has a valid record backing it.

      -b.

    2. Re:Could someone address the points raised? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      3b. Is it possible to change the information on an RFID chip without actually having physical access to the circuitry?

      With a skillful forgery or alteration, one could just insert a new chip, no?

      -b.

    3. Re:Could someone address the points raised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posted as AC, because the headless "fsck informing myself before I have an opinion, what about our PRIVACY!!!" crowd is too annoying:
      1: The data contained is: the data printed on the passport (name, date of birth, city of birth, expiry date, serial number) + high resolution JPEG2000 of your face + optionally some biometric. The biometric is not in common use at the moment, but can (and typically would) be encrypted and accessable to states your issuing state considers to have a need to know. So no, it is not that interesting as an identity theft item as that information is more easily gained another way.

      2: Active reading (i.e. powering the ePassport) is limited to 30-40 cm in the theoretical case, in practice 10-15cm is quite a feat. The limiting factor is getting the power into the chip.
      Passive reading (eavesdropping the authentic reading by the border inspection machines) is possible over much larger distances (4-5 meter demonstrated, more potentially possible).
      However, in both cases there is a mechanism called Basic Access Control (BAC) that interferes with such an attack. It requires a contactless reader to authenticate by showing that it can optically read the passport (i.e. it is open).
      The Active reading needs to effectively bruteforce VERIFY (i.e. try PINs) in a 2^30 range, the Passive reading needs to brute force DES keys for that range. Doable with significant effort, but hardly worthwile IMHO (as that information is more easily gotten from the car rental services for example).

      3: Definately not possible to change the data, copying it is easy (that is exactly what a border inspection station does!) See, all the stored data is signed with an RSA key, that does not reside on the epassport itself. Changing data invalidates the signature. Copying it wholesome is of course possible. There is an optional challenge response mechanism called "Active Authentication" that addresses that. And yes, there is a check of the data against the optical data AND the person offering the passport.

      3a: Additionally of course. This immediately raises the question why they claim the processingspeed will go down of course :-)

      3b: The epassport is a relatively standard ISO14443 smartcard with an ISO7816 filesystem + some authentication commands. Making your own is technically not difficult (although requires some engineering skills). However the data (as above) cannot really by changed.

      For more information the specs are available at http://www.icao.int/mrtd/. Pretty standard stuff for contactless smartcards, but potentially hard to read if you are not familiar with the technology.

  14. And the problem is... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2, Interesting
    How is this different than Xeroxing a 2D barcode? Isn't that why there's biometric data on the passport and a digitally encoded photo - to render it useless even when cloned? Not to mention that the passport # *could* key to a database with the same data for verification purposes - the database should also contain records of passport #'s invalidated due to theft, cloning, or whatever. The data on the RFID chip is *meant* to be read. Rerecording the bitstream is a trivial exercise.

    Cheers,
    -b.

  15. and at best you'll end up with thousands by goldcd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    of copies of the id pages of passports - much the same as you'd have if you'd taken a summer job working for Hertz.

  16. RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by arete · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RFID IDs are TERRIBLE for personal security, because it adds RANGE to detection and forgery. Parent post has ABSOLUTELY missed the point.

    No one is claiming that magnetic stripes and/or bar codes are bad for security. In both cases they make it very marginally harder to copy and virtually eliminate data-entry errors. RFID has a BIG problem beyond that: It can be read without the knowledge of the holder.

    No one can read the inside of my paper passport without me giving it to them - nor my magstripe nor bar code. I have complete control over who sees it. Sure, I might be conned into showing someone, but they have to con me. RFID means that:

    1. They can copy my information without me ever showing it to them.
    2. They can READ my information without me ever showing them, allowing them to identify me from a distance.
    3. Even with a perfectly random RFID system, they can identify your nationality from afar, which obviously may make you a target in some circumstances.

    To be SAFE, an RFID system must have a) zero emissions in the closed state (eg a tested foil cover) AND b) No non-random information broadcast from the chip. (that is, a random passportID that is broadcast that has NO other information until you look it up in the appropriate database.)

    "b" is necessary because "a" alone still allows someone nearby you to snoop whenever you have to show your passport somewhere.

    --
    Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
    1. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by complete+loony · · Score: 3, Insightful
      RFID in general could have even worse implications. Just picture the following:

      - That person is carrying a passport
      - Someone with a passport is probably a tourist
      - A tourist would normally need to carry largish amounts of cash
      - So lets mug them or double our prices.

      If you're a tourist in another country, the LAST thing you would normally want to do is advertise that fact.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    2. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by c_forq · · Score: 1

      If the passport cover was some sort of Faraday cage wouldn't this block remote reading unless it is open, or the foil like you pointed out? And if they put Faraday cages around areas where the chip is supposed to be read wouldn't this make attempted remote reading very suspicious? Would some system like this meet your approval?

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    3. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "b" is not really an option as what is an appropriate database and for whom?
      I VERY much doubt that countries will be happy to transmit the details of EVERY passport holder to EVERY other country in the off chance that a passport holder will travel to that country.
      Would you like all of your details transmitted to North Korea, Russia etc so that they can create their own database just so that you don't need to carry your own details with you when you travel?

    4. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      Or, you could just store your passport in a metal case or wrap it in aluminum foil... problem solved!

    5. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by bigberk · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is a serious misunderstanding of the technology, yes even among slashdot users. The problem is that the media and slashdot refer generically to 'rfid' when they talk about two different things:

      1) Simple RFID chips that can be scan and read by anyone
      2) Contactless smart cards (ISO 14443 etc), with crypto

      Both use the same frequency band and similar hardware, but they are different beasts: one has crypto and the other doth not.

      Identity information can be put on a contactless smart card but depending on how it is implemented (hopefully securely) you probably will NEED A KEY otherwise the crypto will prevent access. Take a wireless payment card or credit card (#2 category) for example. You can't just read/dump the bank account numbers on it. There is a crypto protecting the data.

      On the other hand, walmart uses the non-crypto rfid chips. Yes you can just read the info on them, there is no encryption.

      So when you say "RFID is terrible for personal security" you're right, RFID (#1 above) is completely inappropriate for privacy. But contactless smart cards (#2 above) is totally appropriate, and the passports use #2

    6. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Ecyrd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Except that you can use #2 with no crypto or bad crypto as well. Which is exactly what the epassports are doing. They have such bad keys that it is easy to brute-force crack them open in a couple of minutes. Most well-designed systems using the same standard have non-trivial keys, which makes them a lot more secure than the ICAO epassport standard.

      The fun thing is that the moment the standard was created, everyone said that this is going to be a field day for the press when the first researcher figures out that the keys are so weak. The day has arrived :)

      In reality the issue is blown out of proportion: the epassport is not that much of a privacy issue. Tourists can be spotted by a mile away by simply the way that they look and walk, and the smart tourist will leave the passport in the hotel safe anyway, carrying only a photocopy with him. You are in far more trouble if your passport gets stolen than if it gets copied: if you do not have your passport, dealing with any authorities in a strange country is going to be a problem, whereas if your passport gets copied, you still have the original.

      Also, forging a passport is no easier than before - in fact, getting the digital and the physical passport data to match becomes a lot harder with the epassports. Reading something does not mean you can change it and write it back, as surely is well understood by anyone familiar with digital signatures.

    7. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Your+Pal+Dave · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm sorry, but you'd have to be a pretty pathetic mugger if you can't spot a foreign tourist without using a bunch of fancy electronic equipment. Why back in my day...

    8. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      indeed, your right. I dont mind if someone makes a copy of my passport, atleast not much. But what if that some son of a passport forger hangs around in the airports of my country, copying all the info on every passport he finds and then orders shit load of stuff (including panties with my name on them) on my name (since he now has my Social Security Number) !?!?!

    9. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by bigberk · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt they are terrible implementations (I happen to think that the key entropy is way too small on the e-passports I have studied). I am just pointing out the difference between RFID chips and contactless smart cards.

    10. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      why would your social security number be on your passport?

      And why is it used for anything except dealing with the department of social security in the first place - particular orders of panties?

      It seems like you've got bigger problems than RFID....

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    11. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by SiliconEntity · · Score: 1

      It wasn't done as well as it could be, but these passports do add security. The chip includes a digital signature over the data, including the picture. When they scan it the picture shows up on the scanner. It will be essentially impossible to change the picture associated with a person's name. With present passports without the chip, that attack is relatively straightforward. Defeating this attack is the main security improvement from adding the chip.

    12. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carrying foreign passport == more likely to be carrying money, even if it is already obvious you are a tourist.

      This is because in many areas of the world you need your passport to convert or withdraw money. ATMs are not
      universal.

    13. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You are in far more trouble if your passport gets stolen than if it gets copied: if you do not have your passport, dealing with any authorities in a strange country is going to be a problem, whereas if your passport gets copied, you still have the original.


      The problems with passports can be much more subtle, so I wouldn't count on the fact that adding the same data in RFID mode didn't do anything else than just have some redundancy to prevent reading errors.

      A little tale from my experience: We were flying to Brasil from Lisboa with a flight that was first landing in Natal, and then flying to Recife. For some reason we never spotted an immigration office. I don't know if we were supposed to step out in Natal, get immigration stamps in the passport and then go back to the plane (the flight from Natal to Recife was domestic, because new passengers were boarding to Recife), or if we were supposed to look for immigration at Recife Airport. We didn't, and nobody seemed to care. When we were trying to leave Brasil three weeks later, the officer at border control pointed out that we were missing the immigration stamps. We were argueing, telling the story, he was insisting on immigration stamps. In the end he just pointed us to the gate, telling us "Nao entrada, nao saida" (No entrance, no exit), meaning "You have never been here, and you have never left."

      A similar occurrence was when I was cycling with a group through the then still existing Czechoslovakia. We entered through the polish-slovakian border, and everyone got his passport stamped. We were leaving a week later through the czech-german border, and the officials were just stamping the list of all members of the group. A few weeks later I was again with the bicycle in Czechoslovakia, and I got controlled by the normal police about 30 km from the border, and the police got suspicious with me because I had two immigration stamps, but no exit stamp. So looking from the papers I had entered twice without leaving once. The patrol took me to the office, and then they phoned around for 1 1/2 hours, before just setting me free around midnight, when the train I was planning to take to Prague had just left.

      What I am trying to say: Whenever some inconsistencies come up with your passport, they aren't migitated by having RFID chips somewhere. No one actually cares about this type of redundancy. Immigration officers are humans only, and errors will occur, and most of them will not be solved by looking at RFID chips, but in the end by reluctance of the powers in charge to press any further because it is late, because they don't want hassle or because it's easier to pretend nothing had happened. Given U.S. immigration procedures it will probably solved by just handing persons like me to indefinite detention without access to legal counsel. Because Electronics is always right, and if not, lock up everyone not hiding fast enough.
      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    14. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I spoke with a marine and he mentioned this: a terrorist could put a bomb near a hotel door. The bomb could look for the rough signature of US or some nationality passport and then detonate resulting in much more accurate IED targeting. The kicker is that the trigger does not even have to be able to read the passport, just be able to detect it and its type.

    15. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is because in many areas of the world you need your passport to convert or withdraw money. ATMs are not
      universal.


      Yes, they are. Virtually every country bar Antarctica has ATM's on an interbank network (like Cirrus/Maestro) - even in the poorest and least developed countries on earth.

    16. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Odin's+Raven · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If you're a tourist in another country, the LAST thing you would normally want to do is advertise that fact.

      For whatever reason, this brought to mind part of one of Laurie Anderson's song/stories from her "The Ugly One with the Jewels" album:

      [...] I especially remember an interesting list of tips devised by the US embassy in Madrid, and these tips were designed for Americans who found themselves in war-time airports. The idea was not to call ourselves to the attention of the numerous foreign terrorists who were presumably lurking all the way to terminal, so the embassy tips were a list of mostly don'ts. Things like:
      • don't wear a baseball cap
      • don't wear a sweat shirt with the name of an American university on it
      • don't wear Timberlands with no socks
      • don't chew gum
      • don't yell "Ethel, our plane is leaving!"

      I mean it's weird when your entire culture can be summed up in eight giveaway characteristics.

      --Laurie Anderson, "The Cultural Ambassador"

      --
      A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear that only the other one snores.
    17. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, some of the richest and most modern nations in the world have rather more limited ATM access than you seem to think. Trying to use one in Japan, for instance, with a foreign card is quite an adventure.

    18. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by swillden · · Score: 1

      They have such bad keys that it is easy to brute-force crack them open in a couple of minutes.

      To be fair, you should mention that this is only true if the attacker knows the name of the target.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    19. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's why I think I'm going to be getting one of these when I renew my passport.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    20. Re:RFID is absolutely TERRIBLE for security by Goaway · · Score: 1

      As the grandparent already said once, why do you think muggers have a problem spotting foreign tourists as it is now? And do you really think they would prefer to carry around high-gain antennas for remote RFID reading, rather than just listening for people speaking funny langauges?

  17. Breaking news... by neax · · Score: 1

    ....in further breaking news: "...we would like to encourage the terrorist tourism trade to the UK; why would they cause any problems?"

    --
    Hard work is just an accumulation of the easy things that you didn't do when you should have.
  18. If this happened in the 3rd world... by bogaboga · · Score: 1
    If this happened in the 3rd world, those in countries like these (the 1st world) would say:

    "What do you expect?" "It's the 3rd world."

    They need more "technical assistance" from us who are more developed.

    But I am not surprised, after all the US, which is the "most technically advanced" country in the world, cannot secure its borders. But is it?

    1. Re:If this happened in the 3rd world... by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the United Kingdom Home Office isn't in the United States.

      I knew that, and I'm from Pennsyltucky!

    2. Re:If this happened in the 3rd world... by bogaboga · · Score: 1

      But the US is one of the "1st world" countries, right?

  19. The Solution is Obvious by serutan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Throw the researchers in jail for showing the weakness in the system. Problem solved!

  20. why indeed? by dredson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip." If that's true, then why use a chip at all?
  21. a simple way to correct cluelessness by spasm · · Score: 2, Informative

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

    I think it's time someone cloned his passport and got busted importing drugs or weaponry or child porn or similar while on that passport. Hell, he's probably got a diplomatic passport == no search. Pure gold to anyone wanting to move anything *really* profitable.

    1. Re:a simple way to correct cluelessness by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      I think it's time someone cloned his passport and got busted importing drugs or weaponry or child porn or similar while on that passport.

      Isn't that the point of the biometric data/electronic photo - to make cloning the passport more difficult since the data in the chip has to match the person. If the bio. data is encrypted with a private key, the forger would have to know that key before forging the passport. They could even use, say, 10,000 different private keys to encrypt depending on the value of a hash of birth year, eye color, height, name, etc, so that one private key leaking won't spoil security for everyone's passport.

      -b.

    2. Re:a simple way to correct cluelessness by spasm · · Score: 1

      My comment was intended more cynically - if what the article suggests is true (cloning a passport is trivial) then someone should demonstrate the utility of such an act.

      Having said that, from the article: "Now for the clever bit. Thanks to a software he himself has developed, called RFdump, he downloads the passport's data onto his computer and then onto a blank chip. Using a standard off-the-shelf component you can just buy at a component store you can have a cloned ePassport in less than five minutes. When the cloned ePassport is read and compared to the original one it behaves exactly the same. ... RFID chips can be read at a short distance and tracked without their owner's knowledge, while the key to unlocking the passport's chip consists of details actually printed on the passport itself."

      It's not exactly a high-tech article, and the reporter definitely sounds a bit credulous, but as I recall the original argument was that duplicating the rfid was essentially impossible due to the kind of reasons you suggest. The article suggests that this argument is a nonsense, and that there may be other security holes as well ("the key to unlocking the passport's chip consists of details actually printed on the passport itself") which may weaken or invalidate other core aspects of the putative security model.

    3. Re:a simple way to correct cluelessness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't get it. The data that's on the chip is already printed in plain sight on the passport. Everyone who looks at the passport can read it, it's not meant to be secret.

      The point is that the data in question is valid only for you -- like the parent poster suggested, it's essentially a bunch of hashes of information about you. So what are you going to do with it? While you're at it, please also explain how a passport cloned in this way could be used to import drugs or child porn. The only thing that would happen is that they would notice it's not yours and you would be thrown in jail. Isn't that exactly the point?

      This "hack" is pretty ridiculous. This doofus makes a big fuzz about just reading the goddamn bitstream off the chip. So what? That's what it's for in the first place.

    4. Re:a simple way to correct cluelessness by LarsG · · Score: 1

      You don't get it. The data that's on the chip is already printed in plain sight on the passport. Everyone who looks at the passport can read it, it's not meant to be secret.

      You been listening to the discussion at all? The problem isn't that there's a chip on the passport that contains a duplicate of the printed information on the passport. The problem is that this information can potentially be read wirelessly.

      This doofus makes a big fuzz about just reading the goddamn bitstream off the chip. So what? That's what it's for in the first place.

      Yeah, the article misses the mark on that one.

      What I'd really like to see is a description of how the crypto on the 'contactless smartcard' works. The big potential security hole here is that it can be read from a distance, and what kinds of attacks are possible depends on the details of the crypto and transmission protocols.

      There is a huge difference between, say, the chip sending the encrypted blob of information to any receiver and the chip not sending anything except a crypto challenge before a successful handshake has been performed. Even if just a crypto challenge is sent, there is the possibility that the implementation from country to country are different enough that a reader can tell which country you are from.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    5. Re:a simple way to correct cluelessness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that this information can potentially be read wirelessly.

      No, that's another problem. It is not the one suggested by the parent poster and not the one I was addressing. The parent poster was clearly under the impression that this could be used to create a forged passport, meaning he hadn't really understood anything.

  22. yes minister ... by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    .... was the name of a very funny tv series during the 80s. Its main characters were a clueless minister of state and his conniving private secretary.

    This answer "...it's hard to see why...." is a line right out of this show. It doesn't say that the information is worthless, nor does it criticise e-passports for being insecure. Instead it says that the spokesman found something (irrelevant) hard to imagine. That's something completely different.

    A masterpiece of misdirection, IMHO and just illustrates how hard it is to get a straight answer out of the b@$+@%ds

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  23. 6 years ago... by Potatomasher · · Score: 1

    i'm sure people were wondering "why would you want to fly planes into buildings ?"

    --
    A million monkeys and this is the best sig they could come up with...
    1. Re:6 years ago... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of the 9/11 hijackers had valid passports. On topic, but the post seems to miss the point about all-too-easy passport creation.

  24. Or maybe there should be no database? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The answer isn't to come up with some elaborate system like you propose. That's the worst thing to do. The real solution is to ditch these stupid passport schemes.

    Passports and other pieces of identification never bring a nation security or safety. The best way to remain safe is to avoid alienating those who could bring you harm. And yes, that means staying out of the affairs of regions on the other side of the world.

    1. Re:Or maybe there should be no database? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2
      Passports and other pieces of identification never bring a nation security or safety.

      Ok, but the fact is that we *already* have a lot of pissed-off people wanting to fuck the "West" in any way they can. We do want to prevent them from entering our countries and doing harm. Far better to stop them at the borders rather than enacting Draconian *internal* security measures to protect against terrorism. And, BTW, there's already a database of passport data (at least in the US) - even in the 80s when I was traveling with my family as a kid, I remember seeing the passport inspectors at JFK keying passport numbers into a terminal.

      From a privacy standpoint, a robust passport security system is at the very bottom of my list of worries, as long as the passport is only used as a legitimation for foreign travel.

      -b.

    2. Re:Or maybe there should be no database? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We do want to prevent them from entering our countries and doing harm. Far better to stop them at the borders rather than enacting Draconian *internal* security measures to protect against terrorism.

      I don't disagree. That's an ideal situation. But again, passports and other forms of identification are worthless at doing that. We all saw how useless they were a little over five years ago. If somebody wants to get into a nation, they will, regardless of whether or not they're carrying a (real or fake) passport.

      Of course, what we see here in Britain is exactly what you're striving to avoid. We not only try to pointlessly rely on a passport system for security, but we now have the Draconian ID cards being proposed. It's only a matter of time before such crap arises in America, if it hasn't already.

    3. Re:Or maybe there should be no database? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      If somebody wants to get into a nation, they will, regardless of whether or not they're carrying a (real or fake) passport.

      No need to make it easier for them, though. By your logic, nations shouldn't even *try* to stop foreign criminals from entering their borders? Internal ID cards, etc, are a separate issue that isn't being discussed here, and good external security reduces the need for internal clampdowns.

      -b.

  25. Tinfoil by Shadyman · · Score: 2, Informative

    You can always get one of these or just wrap your passport in tinfoil.

    BRB, I'm making a tinfoil hat for my passport, so it matches mine.

  26. encrypted data is printed on the passport anyway by fihzy · · Score: 1

    The various articles seem to suggest that the data accessible on the RFID chip is actually printed on the passport anyway. So what's the big deal? For anyone sufficiently inclined to obtain the data they could simply open your passport and read it. Granted the chip makes it easier to obtain this "sensitive" data, but to own and operate the technology to achieve this seems to be no less complex than having a $20 pick-pocket help you get it. In addition, who cares whether it can be copied to another RFID chip? To make that "cloned" data useful, the actual physical passport still needs to be adequately forged and that's not trivial. This "hack" does not seem to have a negative impact on the security of passports. Sure, it doesn't advance their security any, but neither does it detract from it?

  27. The proper response is... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The proper response to that spokesman is "Well then, you won't mind lending us your passport for a minute, so we can copy it and put copies on sale in <district with notorious reputation>, will you?".

    Some politicians simply need the problem made their personal problem before they'll see it.

    1. Re:The proper response is... by moerty · · Score: 1

      i think it's gone beyond that point senator kennedy got flagged by the no fly list, but the list is still around, he's just one of the lucky few that managed to get off it. at this point i think america needs a good old fashioned revolution to get rid of the rot, the only question is what the breaking point would be.

    2. Re:The proper response is... by elmurado · · Score: 0

      Thank God the British are so willing to promote Open Source passports...

  28. Shielding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    So what is the paranoid meant to do to shield their passports? We all joke about the tin-foil, but is there something that actually does the job?

    1. Re:Shielding? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Yes - tin foil. Like the other respondent says, you need to put it in a Faraday cage; that's just an all-encompassing metal cage.

      In other words, wrap it in tin foil. (If you want to get fancy, you can buy material with a conductive grid embedded in it, but not having used any I can't vouch for it. Should work in theory.)

  29. Re:encrypted data is printed on the passport anywa by RuBLed · · Score: 1

    It might not be that big of a deal but the very idea is disturbing. Sure, one could get the data by hiring a pickpocket but that is more troublesome given the fact that the passport holder would surely know that his/her passport was missing and would give warnings/alerts to ensure that it would not be misused. But now, you only need to setup a clever RFID reader/scanner and just sit beside the person. That person would never know what hit him. If someone gets any data from one's passport, that doesn't necessarily mean they would use that to create another passport. Whatever is in that chip could be used for other purposes.

  30. Re:encrypted data is printed on the passport anywa by BrianRoach · · Score: 1

    "but to own and operate the technology to achieve this seems to be no less complex than having a $20 pick-pocket help you get it."

    Do you travel? I ask because I do, and I would like to see a "$20 pick-pocket" take my passport. I don't exactly carry it where this would be possible. And when I'm not carrying it, it's usually in a hotel safe. I tend to want to be able to get back into my country, so I'm carefull like that.

    Putting an RFID chip on it changes this game. Unless I have a cage around it, the inside pocket of my jacket and the hotel safe no longer provide any security for the informaion contained therin.

    And the idea that "The information printed on the passport is the same" doesn't really hold water. People doing menial jobs are, generally, lazy/unattentive. For example, my wife and I have credit cards that are the kind with your photograph printed on them. I've tried this a number of times (because I'm silly like that), and it has only failed once - I'll take her card and use it (without her with me or in view). Except for *one* time, I've never had a problem using her card. Nevermind that the picture on it obviously isn't me, the name on the card isn't right, and the signature certainly doesn't match.

    The only way this passport RFID thing would work is if they actually came up with a worldwide system and simply encoded an ID number into the passport. You wave your passport in front of the reader, and up on the computer screen pops your picture, info, etc from the database. The passport simply becomes record number, with no actual information on/in it.

    Of course, this also assumes a computer/database/network system that can not be hacked ... but considering we have this with the banking systems (for the most part), this is not exactly an impossible task.

    - Roach

  31. China by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Insert "China" in that sentence. Or "Iraq".

    But then, some politicians simply need their lives ended so someone else can see it.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  32. How about a switch by phlipped · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about having an electronic switch built in to the passport, so that the chip only works when someone holding it wants it to work. For example, you could set it up so that the chip only works when the passport is opened flat on the details page at the front.

    I can't imagine it being that hard in theory, although divising a reliable and rugged switch may be a bit more challenging.

    Still, I bet it could be done, and it pretty much eliminates all the concerns about people reading the chip without your permission.

    1. Re:How about a switch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to have a puppet that looked like a duck. It had a photovoltaic cell of some sort in its mouth, so when you opened its mouth and light hit the cell, it would 'quack'.

      Just embed something like that in the covers of passports, so it has to be open to send the signal... If an RFID transmitter can even be rigged to do that...

    2. Re:How about a switch by vidarh · · Score: 1

      You just have to shield the cover pages enough that the RFID is unreadable when it's closed.

  33. Imagine this scenario by artifex2004 · · Score: 1

    a smart bomb, planted by a terrorist group, to trigger when n passports from a target country are in the vicinity, as long as fewer than x passports from countries friendly to the terrorists are also present.

    Alternatively, imagine a government putting monitoring devices in public places, or at the entry ways to residential buildings, and tracking when/if people of certain profiled countries are congregating.

  34. The technology makes be feel assured by NewsWatcher · · Score: 1

    What I worry about is a working hack that allows people to insert a different photograph into the information on the chip. There is not border guard in the world who will reject a passport if his electronic scanner shows the photo of the person standing in front of him.

    In the "old days" a passport could have had a new photo glued over the top. These could be spotted and rejected. Any new hacks that had a glued-over photo that corresponded with the pic in the RFID chip, would be far less likely to be picked-up. Guards would believe it, because the technology would convince them the passport was genuine.

    In any case, we may get to the situation where nobody would look anyway. I came through the gates of Melbourne Airport in Australia a few days ago with my ePassport. I was told by a border guard that soon I would be able to "check myself in" using the passport, without needing to see a border guard.

    --
    If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
    1. Re:The technology makes be feel assured by jimicus · · Score: 1

      In the "old days" a passport could have had a new photo glued over the top. These could be spotted and rejected. Any new hacks that had a glued-over photo that corresponded with the pic in the RFID chip, would be far less likely to be picked-up. Guards would believe it, because the technology would convince them the passport was genuine.

      Does anyone know if the data these RFID chips contain includes a digital signature? If not, what's to stop someone:

      1. Read RFID from a passport
      2. Change the picture in the RFID data.
      3. Write this altered data to a new, fake passport with the same picture on there. (I'm sure they're easy enough to get hold of with the right contacts and enough money).

      Bingo. One passport which looks genuine to both the guard and to their machinery.

  35. Tin foil hats, everyone by h2g2bob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The ID cards themselves are just a distraction. The real agenda is the setting up of a big database with information on all citizens. While everyone debates ID cards, they get to do what they want with the database proposal. They can back down on ID cards later, and everyone is happy.

    1. Re:Tin foil hats, everyone by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 1

      Living in a country (Spain) where we've had ID cards for decades, I just can't understand all this paranoia about ID cards. Really.

    2. Re:Tin foil hats, everyone by jujuchef · · Score: 1

      I would highly doubt everyone in *any* country is happy to be tagged with such an all-inclusive grasp of information. While for these past decades Spain has had ID cards, you may not have noticed anything out of the ordinary, but quite possibly others' have.

      For example, if one were to be an active member of Eta (or any group out of the common), would anyone in Eta want to be acknowledged somewhere on a database (that is controlled by Eta's opposition) as being a supporter/pacifist/activist (lets say this database can add attributes ad-hoc similar to the UK database) *without* their explicit consent? I highly doubt it. Why does this matter? Because the feasible possibility of a new government or reform of the current one becomes seriously at risk, thus everybody suffers.

      I know I did not like it when I could tell my international phonecalls to my family were being monitored. This was before the/our US government admitted to monitoring us US citizens' phonecalls without a warrant. I still don't like it, but because some morons behind closed doors felt it best to not just secretely monitor foreign nationals, but everyday american citizens as well, we all suffer invasion of privacy. Just decades ago this paragraph would be considered nonsense, because 'that just doesn't happen in America'... my how a few conflicts/wars and some good propoganda can change all that is acceptable.

      --
      Truth is realized, not told...
    3. Re:Tin foil hats, everyone by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      And I guess the Madrid train bombings prove that ID cards are no defence against terrorism, and they cost a large bunch of money to implement, so...why should we have them?

    4. Re:Tin foil hats, everyone by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 1

      Duh. And why ID cards would avoid terrorism in any way? You can make a bomb regardless of having an ID card or not.

      I can tell however that not having an ID card was one of the reasons it took so many time to know the identity of all the victims of UK bombings. I can also tell that it was probably much easier for the police to find the terrorists that did the 11-M bombings (since they probably had to use their IDs for so many things, getting internet connextion requires filling in your ID number). It also probably saves lots of money to the administration.

      Again, I have nothing against it. Yes, the government knows who my fathers are, my age, where I was born and where I "oficially" live. So what? Do you really think you're more "free" by not having an ID card?

    5. Re:Tin foil hats, everyone by Tim+Browse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Duh. And why ID cards would avoid terrorism in any way? You can make a bomb regardless of having an ID card or not.

      My point was really that (here in the UK at least, so I don't expect you to realise it) the ID cards are always pushed by the government as the way to make us all more secure against terrorism. It will save us all, you see. It's the primary reason for introducing the scheme. Never mind that most experts (inc. the police and MI5, iirc) disagree - and you, as someone living in an ID card carrying country, seem to disagree too.

      I can tell however that not having an ID card was one of the reasons it took so many time to know the identity of all the victims of UK bombings.

      Oh yay, you certainly know how to sell me on the benefits of having an ID card! :-) I think I speak for many people when I say that being able to identify my charred body via an ID card is not top of my priorities.

      I can also tell that it was probably much easier for the police to find the terrorists that did the 11-M bombings

      Er, got a source for that assertion?

      (since they probably had to use their IDs for so many things, getting internet connextion requires filling in your ID number).

      Ah. So no, then.

      It also probably saves lots of money to the administration.

      That's 'probably' why the UK govt keeps refusing to give an estimate of how much the ID card system would cost.

      A lot of the resistance, as well as a dislike for the general concept/system, is merely that it won't improve anything, so why waste billions of pounds of UK taxpayers' money implementing it?

  36. Fudge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's complete baloney to have a passport readable from a distance - the ONLY, repeat, ONLY use this has is for covert surveillance, and given the bad implementation even that is questionable.

    Anything else could have been done with a 2D barcode. Only visible when opened, dirt cheap readers and reproduction, protection by the same existing methods like lamination or encapsulation.

  37. Can I zap it? by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Cloning a passport has become no harder or easier thanks to RFID. But Identity theft will become much much easier.

    Couldn't one kill the RFID chip by putting the passport in a microwave oven for a minute?

    I can't imagine the rubber-stamper at immigration control not letting me through because he can't read my RFID tag... I'm sure a good percentage of non-zapped passports would fail to scan for one reason or another. If enough people did it, then they justn wouldn't be able to rely on them, period.

    1. Re:Can I zap it? by olman · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine the rubber-stamper at immigration control not letting me through because he can't read my RFID tag... I'm sure a good percentage of non-zapped passports would fail to scan for one reason or another. If enough people did it, then they justn wouldn't be able to rely on them, period.

      I see you haven't traveled to US from abroads lately. Fail with your passport chip scan and you are in classified holding pen sans trial for indefinite period before you have chance to say "huh?".

    2. Re:Can I zap it? by Alioth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, they can and will deport you if the chip doesn't work.

      You make the invalid assumption that people at immigration desks are reasonable people - they are *not*. Some of them are little Hitlers with bad attitude, and the ones who aren't have their hands tied by the law - they have no discretion at all. If the law says you can't enter without a working chip, the immigration officer (even the world's friendliest and most reasonable one) has no choice but to deport you. Just as they would deport you if your passport photo was mutilated.

      (I'll make one exception for the little Hitlers - one notable aberration is Houston's immigration desks - those people are polite and make you feel welcome to the United States - truly refreshing to get to an immigration desk where it isn't just stony faces and demands to see that you have a return plane ticket. I frequently travel through Houston and they've always had good people there. Dallas Ft.Worth on the other hand - I will never travel through that airport again).

    3. Re:Can I zap it? by lahvak · · Score: 1

      Even if they don't deport you, it will cost you several hours at each border crossing before they let you in.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Can I zap it? by ageoffri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please stop with the FUD. The new passport is bad enough without adding fuel to the fire. Check out the official information according to the US Government.

      What will happen if my Electronic passport fails at a port-of-entry?

      The chip in the passport is just one of the many security features of the new passport. If the chip fails, the passport remains a valid travel document until its expiration date. The bearer will continue to processed by the port-of-entry officer as if he/she had a passport without a chip.

      --
      -- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
    5. Re:Can I zap it? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      That's the US government. What matters in this case is the UK government's policies.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  38. Identification isn't the problem. by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just once, when one of these government prats is bragging about their latest and greatest hard-to-forge ID paraphernalia, I hope SOME reporter will point out the uncomfortable fact that none of the 9/11 perps were travelling with forged documents. They had passports in their own names, and credit cards. They made NO attempt to conceal their identities, and in fact were most likely hoping to be hailed as heroes by their fellow fanatics.

    If the bad guys were still in the business of trying to bring down airplanes, they'd use people with squeaky-clean records to do the attacks. Let's not kid ourselves, they HAVE people with squeaky-clean records.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Identification isn't the problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution then is to take everyone that is not on a No Fly/Sex offenders/suspected terrorist list and put them on the Suspiciouly Squeaky Clean list in order to protect our liberty and freedom and children.

  39. UK Moron Office? by Conanymous+Award · · Score: 1

    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

    Then I say, it is hard to see why they needed to introduce such a thing as an e-passport. Or why we've got passports at all.
    Have these guys got any detectable brain activity going on when they open their mouths?

  40. It is hard to see by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip

    No, what it's hard to see is how he managed to get this job. Probably ought to have talked to the guy before giving him the office. But, I guess it takes skill to notice the lack of it.
     

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  41. The technology used by Eljas · · Score: 4, Informative

    Many people here seem to make claims on RFID security without knowledge of the technology actually used. I have done some research on the subject so I think I can give some pointers. Details about the technology can be found at ICAO's web page and short presentation on the subject Jacobs/Wichers Schreur.

    The communication between the password and the reader is encrypted using information in the Machine Readable Zone at the bottom of the passport. This is the basic way to authorize passport reading. The MRZ-information is generated from the information of the passport holder and random numbers. If bad numbering scheme is used, breaking the encryption is quite possible. If large enough random numbers are used, breaking the encryption with brute force is currently not practical.

    The authentication is done using public key cryptography. Currently only Passive Authentication is mandatory, but Active Authentiacation is supported and it is mandatory when fingerprint information is contained in the passport. With only Passive Authentication cloning of MRZ-compromized passport is easy, but with Active Authentication it should be unfeasibly difficult.

    Reading and cloning an European RFID passport which is using all available security measures (like the e-passports in Finland) is not as trivia as many people here seem to think. As long as there are no backdoors in the cryptography (e.g. for the intelligence agencies) I think the technology is quite sound. Not using all available cryptography is just bad choise by the goverment issuing the passports.

    The scheme in TFA is nothing new and nothing revolutionary. If you have physical access to a passport with only Passive Authentication cloning is trivial, as pointed in TFA. This is actually how the technology was designed to work. Maybe the design is bad, but that is hardly big suprise, since the technology is compromize between many organizations and goverments. When someone clones a passport which has Active Authentication, then that is real news.

  42. Hashcode on the passport by denoir · · Score: 1
    The information on EU passports/ID cards is primarily supposed to be a hash code of a biometric measurement - i.e of a finger print scan.

    The basic idea is automated passport controls - you swipe your passport on a reader and provide a fingerprint - if they match (and match to a record in the database) you are let through. Given a good hash algorithm obtaining the hash code should not be a too big security hole. You still need your fingerprint to get through.

    A properly secure system can't rely on the payload or the algorithm being secret. If they have a good implementation then the encrypted/hashed data on the passport can be made public without any security implications. Of course some form of rolling codes would be preferable or a two way system that ensures that one you've used a code you get a new one and the old one becomes invalid.

    Ultimately the fingerprint biometrics is the weak link. A biometric measurement shouldn't be possible to clone and it is, at least when used with cheap readers. If you have good enough fingerprint readers (I'm not sure that they exist) then it shouldn't be a problem.

  43. Such ID numbers already exist by msobkow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Your birth certificate number could be read as CN.DN.cert-number. You have a social insurance number, social security number, or equivalent. You are numbered by your driver's license, your chequing account, your power bill, and a host of other unique identifiers.

    I have no objection to SECURE identification. I object to wasting billions on useless crap.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Such ID numbers already exist by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Informative

      Let's not forget we are talking about Europe where many countries issue personal IDs and keep registries of all citizens at several levels with mandatory registration.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Such ID numbers already exist by mrogers · · Score: 1
      Let's not forget we are talking about Europe where many countries issue personal IDs and keep registries of all citizens at several levels with mandatory registration.
      That's true, but no country in the world has a computerised database of all its citizens. The fact that it's computerised makes all the difference - paper records are harder to search, harder to copy, and harder to cross-reference. That makes it much more expensive to engage in widespread surveillance, identity theft or profiling.
    3. Re:Such ID numbers already exist by Haeleth · · Score: 1
      Let's not forget we are talking about Europe where many countries issue personal IDs and keep registries of all citizens at several levels with mandatory registration.
      That's like taking an article on the USA and saying "let's not forget we are talking about the Americas which have a long history of military dictatorships and one of the world's last remaining communist states".

      We're actually talking about Britain, which doesn't issue ID papers or keep compulsory registries of all citizens at several levels... yet. It's the fact that our government is probably going to try to introduce these hitherto unheard-of measures soon that is causing all this controversy. Since we are a multi-party democracy in which both major opposition parties oppose these measures, I wouldn't stake any money on such unpopular measures getting rammed through. It's likely but not inevitable.
  44. Re:"Number of the Beast" nonsense by randomblast · · Score: 1, Redundant

    > I do not for a second believe that it has anything to do with national id card proposals.

    Correct. So why do you mention it?

    --
    ...these aren't my real teeth.
  45. The most important question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The most important question here (and, at the same time, a question I see nobody asking) is: what is the range of these RFID chips?
    If they have a range of one or more feet, so that somebody can scan my passport from across the room, then I really see a big privacy and security problem.
    If, on the other hand, they have a range of one inch or less, then I don't see any reason of concern: if scanning my passport requires roughly the same effort as stealing it, and also if by scanning it one obtains the same information (d.o.b., height, picture, etc.) that he would have obtained by stealing it, where's the problem here?

  46. Re:Well then by thesaintlives · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    This is all far to complicated, I know the real reason nobody would want to read this data: the british government welcomes imigrants with open arms, why bother to try and copy a passport - they give away the real ones in christmas crackers now!

  47. Yes, but not co-ordinated like this by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, governments have databases about the citizens of their countries, for tax purposes, medical purposes, driver licensing and so on. That in itself is not unreasonable, as long as the data collected is necessary for the purpose, properly and securely handled, with suitable checks made on those with access to it and confidentiality maintained.

    The National Identity Register in the UK, however, will combine most of the existing government databases into a single, centralised point of failure. In practice, it will likely be the case that most government departments and many outside agencies will have access to all of the records about an individual, not just those they have reason to see.

    A second major concern is that the NIR will track every time it is checked. That won't help with the identity theft problem that follows from the above, unless the security of access is near-perfect across many thousands of people with access to the database. It will, however, mean that once the national ID card becomes the "easy option" for identity verification, the government has a handy record of each citizen's entire life: where they shop, which financial services they've been using, jobs they've been applying for, where they've travelled and who with, etc. There is simply no need for any state organisation to keep this sort of information about any citizen, other than when conducting legitimate surveillance of a suspect for genuine security purposes, with independent oversight.

    Identity thieves, however, already happy to be part of the fastest-growing and most profitable crime wave in recent history, have hit the jackpot. Just along the Slashdot front page from this story as I write this, there is another article estimating that 100 million personal information leaks have occurred within the past couple of years or so. If that combination isn't reason enough to stop the NIR plans right now, I don't know what kind of sanity prevails in the government's universe.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  48. My oh my. by neimon · · Score: 1

    It ain't the data, it's the LOCATION of the chip and the INTERPRETATION by persons unknown and unaccountable. In this age when travel can indicate evil intent when interpreted by paranoids in dark rooms, you can't imagine?

    And if your passport is cloned, how hard would it to build a "case" that YOU cloned it in order to obfuscate your location? Of course, that won't be for long, as you'll disappear to an UNDISCLOSED location.

    My God, are they this stupid?

    I doubt it.

    1. Re:My oh my. by qorkfiend · · Score: 1

      What I find more frightening is the enormous potential for someone to clone your passport, use it to enter a country, committ some act of terrorism or other crime, and then you get accused because it was your passport. Much like what happens to identity theft victims whose identities are then used to take out enormous loans.

  49. Pick a reason by smoker2 · · Score: 1
    I happened to catch the "Click" programme when it was shown on TV on Saturday morning. Firstly, to anyone who has not seen this programme before, it is trying very hard to be "cool" and pretends to know the "scene", but in actual fact is neither. They typically get all exited about old news and push it like it's the next big thing.

    That said, what irritated me about this particular show, was they started the section about the passport by saying things like "We all have grown used to being protected by our passports" and "the passport system has protected our borders for generations". Tossers. Passports have never "protected" anything, and I resent being spoken to like a 6 year old.

    Anyway, quality content it is not.

    As a side effect of watching this, and also just my general dislike of all the crap regarding "terrorism" recently, I found myself in a discussion with a friend about the general state of the law here in the UK. First point was the proposed 90 day detention without charge. My friend is all in favour of this law. He believes that "if you've got nothing to hide" then what's the problem. He also believes that the police won't be coming after the likes of "us", just the terrorists (ie. people of asian appearance, Muslims etc). This of course led on to why he believes that is justified. Of course he is a closet racist, so he is never going to side with anybody not "English".

    The argument got twisted into discussing WW2, and whether we would all be speaking German, unless the USA had come to our aid. He hates the idea of Hitler and all that he stood for. So, at the risk of invoking Godwin, I tried to point out that Hitlers main approach in the early days, was to blame the Jews for all of Germanys problems, thereby providing the scapegoat to distract attention away from his intentions. And here we are 60 years later with the Muslims being blamed for all societies ills, while in the meantime, a massive power grab by the government is taking place under our noses. My friend also believes that all new born children should have their DNA sampled at birth, and kept in a database, so that in the future, whenever a crime is committed, the police can grab a sample from the scene, and instantly know who committed the crime. How can you reason with someone with that attitude ?

    I tried the approach which says that we are all supposed to be free human beings, not farm animals, catalogued and monitored 24/7 but he doesn't accept that. I pointed out that the DNA would only identify a criminal, not locate that person, but apparently that's not an issue either. Even the fact that DNA is not a 100% reliable method, didn't matter to him. Even making the point that the government has a vested interest in making *everybody* a criminal didn't seem to sink in. He still believes that if you are doing nothing wrong ....
    I was brought up on the notion that freedom meant freedom to break the law. It is a personal moral choice, and cannot be imposed upon us. What good is a system unless everybody feels some responsibility towards it ?

    I can't find a way to get him to engage his mind on this issue objectively. He has the capacity to understand, but seems to be a perfect example of the indoctrinated mindset that has been fostered here over the last few years. There was a glimmer of hope, when, as he was raving about all muslims being terrorists, I pointed out that that obviously wasn't true, I know people from Iran and other Muslim countries and none of them are terrorists, they are mostly all just people the same as us, just trying to get by in life. It is the public perception of these people that has been manipulated by the government and the media, to bend us to their will. My friend went quiet for a few moments at this point, not being able to directly refute it. But I don't think that was enough to change his attitude.

    Does anybody know what the estimates are for total number of terrorists in the

  50. Why does it matter if you can clone these? by snark23 · · Score: 1

    Who cares if a passport can be cloned?

    Doesn't the real problem occur if information can be forged?
    I haven't seen anything that suggests this is possible.

  51. No big surprise by pan0k · · Score: 1

    I guess my theory is still correct. No matter what they said about how secure your information is, there is always a back door, a hacker, or mishandled people that can defeat that security.

  52. Anyone? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1
    "It is hard to see why anyone would want to access the information on the chip."

    Then why put it in the passport?

    Anyway, it isn't hard to see why:

    while(1) { sleep( 30 ); if( RFID.detect() && RFID.read().nationality == infidel ) break; }
    bomb.detonate();
    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  53. Not at all off topic by msobkow · · Score: 1

    Don't forget there are a few million Christians, Jews, and Muslims who read such prophecies and consider it a sign of the apocalypse. It's not relevant to the technology, but it is very relevant to the acceptance of national ID in any form.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Not at all off topic by Apple+Acolyte · · Score: 1

      FYI, I think you're referring to the Book of Revelation; beliefs derived therefrom would only apply to a subset of Christians, not Jews or Muslims.

      --
      Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
    2. Re:Not at all off topic by msobkow · · Score: 1

      It's not part of the Jewish texts, but I'd presume they have similar end-of-the-world scenarios.

      If you take the time to actually read the Koran, Mohammed told his followers that his visions were an extension of existing Jewish and Christian beliefs, referring to those two as the "People of the Book". So I would presume that the Bible's "Revelations" are considered part of the Islamic reading list, even if they don't accept Christ as being "the" Son of God, but merely a prophet.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  54. Unclonable RFIDs by Ruptor · · Score: 1

    They could easily make RFID and contact smartcards unclonable by simply using a cipher that is slow in software but small and fast in hardware such as VEST - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEST or http://www.ecrypt.eu.org/stream/vestp2.html

    The 1000-time speed difference between hardware and software makes any RFID or smartcard implementing VEST impossible to clone with software-based smartcards - any normal reader would simply time-out way before the emulator could respond. Even a cheap low-end 1MHz RFID chip would require an impossible 1GHz software smartcard to emulate it. FPGAs won't help either - reprogramming logic makes them inherently big, at least 5x5mm in size, plus the heavy power consumption... Of course, those who want to manufacture their own ASIC chips are welcome to spend $1mln+ on cloning a passport!

    /me sighs

    When will they learn to use proper ciphers???

  55. I Am Planning A Visit To: +100, Patriotistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  56. Not a clone... by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

    I think someone's misusing the word "clone" here. For that I'd expect to get a genuine-looking passport, with my picture on it (not yours) and with an RFID chip containing relevant data. A copy of the data off your passport is only useful (for creating a passport for me) if I look similar enough to you for your picture to pass as me. I guess that that's not impossible - UK passports are valid for 10 years, so the person in the picture doesn't always look exactly like the person holding the passport.

    This isn't to say that passports readable at a distance are a good idea, or that "securing" the biometric data with information available from other sources is, but "someone can read data on an RFID chip with an RFID reader" isn't really a news story. By extension, the photcopy of the back page of my passport that I keep in case the real one gets nicked is as much of a "clone" as this is.

  57. Re:encrypted data is printed on the passport anywa by fihzy · · Score: 1

    Sure I travel, and like you no pick pocket could take my passport, but the vast majority of people aren't very smart. Regardless, the point was that your eye color, height, and weight can all be obtained by reading the printed info, or perhaps by someone just looking at you as you walk by. There's nothing on the passport that's worth going to the trouble to obtain.