Slashdot Mirror
Tamil Nadu (India) Shutting the Door On Microsoft
aprasadh writes "The government of Tamil Nadu, a state in southern India, has begun initiatives to convert all of their IT systems fully to OSS-based software. (The link is a copy of a news item that appeared recently in the Deccan Chronicle, an English-language daily.) The managing director of the IT procurement, consulting, and training agency for the Tamil Nadu government describes the reasons why he has chosen OSS, and also how he dealt with Microsoft executives." From the article: "Initially, 99 per cent of government systems have been running on Microsoft systems but then 2007 will be a watershed year for the state IT sector... We have already dispatched 6,500 Linux systems to village panchayats and another 6,100 Acer desktop systems with Suse Linux operating systems are on their way. We are procuring 20,000 desktop systems for schools, which will run only on Suse Linux... I require at least 500 trainers to train 30,000 state officials across Tamil Nadu in the next six months."
From TFA:
Sounds painful.
In good sadness, though, India's push for OSS seems to be in direct proportion to its Microsoft-olatry: last I heard, most institutions there prostrate before Redmond.
Am I the only one that was excited to read about this, until it said Suse Linux?
I think it's pretty clear that the Tamils should run Tiger.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
Nice attempt at humor. But you should know your history better. These are not the same Tamils.
Tamil Tigers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_tigers
Tamil Nadu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_nadu
Sounds like someone forgot who butters thiri bread. MS may pull their call centers out of India now. Oh, wait, maybe that's a GOOD thing.
I can't wait to get that first email from the Governor of Tamil Nadu telling me how Viagra changed their life.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
The numbers outlined looks good, but then they have always looked good. It really comes down to getting people who can actually make it happen. But if any one country has the IT manpower to make it happen, I'd say it was India... and cheaply too.
I hope there are many eyes on this move. They plan to move pretty quickly and so people will not become quite so bored as when other such projects are projected to take 5+ years and often peter out or are otherwise persuaded not to continue.
I also find it interesting that this particular Indian state seems somewhat uncorruptable. I'm not saying that anyone opting for proprietary software is corrupted, but I am saying that this guy's hard-line lacks any sort of compromise or wriggle room for Microsoft to persuade them against this. If Microsoft can't buy them, I have to wonder what these people are like.
And just to put it out there -- I could probably be bought by Microsoft if I were to find myself in a similar situation. So I have to admire this Indian state's dedication. But I'm guessing Microsoft has only begun their campaign of dirty tricks, leverage and persuation. Rather like one U.S. state's intention to move to OpenDocument, while Microsoft could make the IT guy budge on his plans, they simply when around him and bought his bosses.
But the bottom line is that if these guys are successful, a lot of people will be noticing.
Microsoft has it right that the future is software as a service... well, at least the service part anyway. The software part should not be proprietary.
This is Tamil Nadu in INDIA. The Tamil Tigers (LTTE) are a Terrorist Faction, which consists of a minority of Sri Lankans who speak tamil. Same Language, different people, Just like Americans and British, both speak english.
Have a nice day!
Well I thought it was funny despite being the wrong Tamils.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
And so you believe. Who told you ? The chaps who had phantasised WMDs all over the by now destructed place ?
The terrorists in this case are - I don't expect you to believe me, but I used to live there - the Buddhist clergy and their puppets, the Sri Lankan government.
And no, I don't condone the atrocities committed by the Tigers of Eelam at all. But what they do is more on the side of self-defense than terrorism.
Good, maybe outsourcing will have it's lesson... now what to do with the rest of India. I know I am not the only one who could detect Indian dialect(s) when phoning [Micro$oft support] in the past.
Kerala was the first state to do this - slashdot story (and the oblig. dupe).
But those stories paint Kerala as some hippie commune full of comrades - I've been following the developments in Kerala for a while and in general all that makes sense.
Of course, most of these states are picking F/OSS for economic reasons - but not exactly about freedom and stuff. I've heard whispers from the gubment that it is the support contracts which are deal killers for F/OSS in general, but of late the government has started taking a socialist approach of doing it in-house rather than contracting it out to vendors (well, it doesn't sound socialist when a company does I.T, right).
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
1 lakh = 21363 USD aprox. lakh 100 000 rupee crone 1 million rupee more ignorance in cultural diversity shining through smile they are your future customer/boss
2007 is starting off great! With India starting to shut it's doors on Microsoft, maby (finally) Microsoft will outsource in a country that speaks clear English. Microsoft will soon rely on the American market only, and even that is starting to fade slightly.
I think within the next 20 years (when Vista is dead) Microsoft will make it's own Linux distro and sell support. It is possible the deal between Microsoft and Novell is the first step on this road. Microsoft cannot beat Linux.....therefore why not join it and buy (and try to put down other distros) as much as possible!
what the hell did that guy just say?
And since they went with Suse, they're safe from being sued by Microsoft, thanks to the Microsoft-Novell deal.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
> The terrorists in this case are - I don't expect you to believe me, but I used to live there - the Buddhist clergy and their puppets, the Sri Lankan government.
Yeah, but because you took the peaceful step of assassinating an Indian prime minister, you're a bunch of terrorist scumbags for 1.1 billion people. Actions, Consequences.
Go somewhere random
Mr. Umashankar, IAS officer is a staunch supporter of open source software. You can see his commitment towards opensource in the EGOVINDIA group. He is the popular member of this active group. I believe his actions are in true spirit.
Hari Sarvottama! Vaayu Jeevottama!
You say "National self interest" as if it's a good thing. As the internet is helping demonstrate the physical soil borders we were used to in the 20th Century are outdated. Microsoft may be making money for "Americans" but it's also making money in each country that is taxed by those countries, and employing people in those countries.
OSS != free software. Free software != the best software. At least, not in every case.
I imagine that the next few centuries are going to be interesting as globalisation *really* kicks in - see AllOfMp3 as an example of what can happen.
Microsoft's worldwide power peaked around the year 2000, other multinationals (including US based) and countries saw the danger in Microsoft's monopoly and are now in the process of breaking it. This benefit's the whole world including the USA. If you saw the movie The Lord of The Rings, well it's like that, people start off as nice guy's...and then power corrupts!
7000 rupees is about $150 USD right? That's not cheap at all. Not for XP volume licensing. Not in India. Not in the US.
Just how many people live in this state anyway?
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! Someone mod the AC Funny.
The Information and Technology Minister - Dayanidhi Maran belongs to the same political party as the one in Tamil Nadu and he is seen hobnobbing with Billy on launching MS products in India
>> Techflock-flock onto the best bits of technology
I'm Dutch so I'm using euro's. In india they use rupees, and large amounts of Rupees are expressed in lakh rupees or crore rupees. A Lakh Rupee is one hundred thousand rupees and a crore rupee is ten million rupees.
n 060303.html
For you ignorant fool the conversion gets you 1698 Euro for 1 lakh rupee.
You are probably a US'ian, so you probably think your dollar is the only valid currency in the world. The rest of the world doesn't think so:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/wallenwei
Now, that the euro (a) exists, and (b) has already achieved a tremendous amount of penetration of the international currency markets and even central bank reserves to some extent, and (c) has not lost decisively in value but has gained back all "losses" to date, the stage is set for a slow, gradual, but complete takeover by the euro of the dollar's role as the international reserve currency.
This process will not be allowed to take place too suddenly, because a complete and rapid "crash" of the US economy would still hurt too many countries that are dependent on the US market for their exports. Their export routes will have to be shifted first.
Rather, the US economy will be allowed to slowly suffocate under its own dollar-weight, letting it go into a gradual recession, with gradual deflationary pressures exerting themselves at first a la Japan (now happening), which the Fed is presently proceeding to "fight" with mammoth inflation, and that will eventually help bring about hyper-inflation.
--
You know, I used to be rather fond of the US, I've travelled through 35 states, and know the country well. With your current government, the US is loosing goodwill at a tremendous rate, and your personal kind of stupidity doesn't help. But who cares, you're likely an adolescent male anyway.
Bart
You can only do that in third world countries where labor is cheap. If 500 trainers is not enough to train and support each Linux install then hire a 1000 more. It'll still cost less than a commercial license. You can't do that in first world countries where technical training and support is expensive.
If you mean the loss of profits from foreign sales (i.e. the export market) this is a completely separate issue. The mere fact that other countries try to avoid buying MS products means that in the long or short term income from this source will dry up. From the point of view of the US, it is probably better that other countries continue to buy US products (Red Hat, Novell) than that they either do not develop an IT infrastructure at all, or develop entirely home grown solutions.
The history of every major industry is one of declining prices. This leads to economic expansion, not contraction, whether it is steel, cars, television. Software is not exempt from economic laws.
Pining for the fjords
Well unless you have some plan to eject America into space and make a new world just for it, I find your comment to be very pompous.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Am I hearing chairs flying around?
printf($randomline(sigs.txt) \n "-- "$randomline(authors.txt));
-- myself
It was a former Indian PM who got assassinated by LTTE.
I think you made a typo:
0 0000
Try: http://coinmill.com/convert/INR_USD.html?amount=1
and you get 2251.73 USD
Inglish :)
You must be confusing me. I thought myself as a European, born in Europe, to German parents. Okay, the Third Reich wasn't exactly a nicety from our side, agreed. Quite a lot of Jews lost their lives, before I was born. But I can't find any Indian prime minister in the list of what 'we' did wrong.
I did, however, follow a time in the earlier eighties, that is long before said prime minister was assassinated, when the then Sri Lankan president saw it fit, to stand by when probably a thousand Tamils were slaughtered for being just that, Tamils.
Read my earlier comment. I don't condone or deny any later atrocity. Including assassinating an Indian prime minister (though India had tried to interfere, anxious an independent Tamil in Sri Lanka would stir unrest in Tamil Nadu).
It is mainly the Buddhist clergy that tries its best to prevent any reasonable peace process, for fear the country as hosting Buddha's Tooth, might lose importance by being split into two parts.
Over from my side.
...since a window is not a door? Shouldn't they be shutting windows instead?
As Good as this news in, does the slashdot community have to constantly reminded not only of the benifits of open source but more annoyingly, of every single government and private organisation which switches from Microsoft to oss?
Heck, I was just impressed anyone here managed to put Tamil and Tiger in the same sentence.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
So, we have a government monopoly replacing Microsoft software because it is a supposed monopoly? Pot, meet kettle.
If their "SEO" & "Website builder" strategies are any indication of how their government operates, I bet Microsofts' real reaction to this would be more along the lines of "Don't let the door hit you on the way out, ya cheap bastards !".
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
"And so you believe. Who told you ? The chaps who had phantasised WMDs all over the by now destructed place ?"
I am a Tamil, From Sri Lanka.. lets just say I know a bit more than the average person.
Tamils in Sri Lanka have been severely disenfranchised over the years by a few Nationalists.
I was going to write a bit about it, but read up on Black July.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_July is a good starting point.
Tamils have suffered terribly in the years since independence, and organised killing, and rape by groups suspected to be associated or controlled by the Government of Sri Lanka is common.
Although I was born in Sri Lanka, I have lived in the UK since the age of three, having emigrated here since 1979. However, sometimes when I go to Sri Lanka, The fact my passport has my Place of Birth as "Jaffna" I am noticeably treated with suspicion by some people.
The LTTE are seen by many Tamils in Sri Lanka as the only hope for them. In many cases, the LTTE has provided a lot of change in Sri Lanka. However, their overall egalitarian view could cause more issues than solve at this stage. Also the use of killing to achieve the goals is another thing I am a bit objectionable about. This is why they are view by many as terrorists, even though their mandate, and their intentions are Freedom Fighters. Although most of what they do are for self defence, some actions do indeed go far beyond self defence. Certainly the LTTE are NOT on the same scale as Al-Queda, etc.
Yes you are totally correct about the Buddhist Clergy, and certain ultra nationalist factions. A lot of lies and propaganda exist there, were the general populace is hood winkled to believing that Tamils are the cause of every problem.
However, I have many Sinhalese Friends, who are frankly amazing, so maybe now is the time to capitalise on friendships, rather than war. I just feel there is too much bloodshed already, and people have to put behind old prejudices, and actually look forward. I know its not easy, I have been through the heartache of hopes being dashed. Therefore I criticize both the government and the LTTE for not really working hard to capitalising the short lived ceasefire, and showing true leadership rather than rhetoric.
The Problems in Sri Lanka are immense, and rather than tell you everything, I simply invite those who wish to know, to find information, readily available on the Internet from both sides.
One thing for sure, the war back home brings tears to my eyes. Sri Lanka was and in some ways still is a beautiful country, with some very smart educated and intellectual people. Had there not been a war, Sri Lanka would be on a par with Korea and other far east "tigers".
Have a nice day!
Free Land
....just kidding- TN is pretty good when it comes to most things comparitively.
Glad that they went through with this - whatever their reasons may be (empty coffers must likely), the path they have taken is a brave one. There may be some FUD initially, but typically these govt. officials do nothing more than what they are told to do on the PC (i.e. press ALT-P, type, click on OK etc... - of course in TN, everything must be in Tamil as well). So there wont be any complaints like "This new Nvidia card is not working on my PC" OR "how can I get this to recognize my new USB external hard drive"...
Free TV
Free GOLD!!!!
The only complaint is rice is cheap not free - can you imagine paying nearly $0.50 for 10 Kilograms (22 lbs)? Govt. these days....
Congrats SUSE - you got yourself 30,000+ new users who wont complain much. Having said that, everything will get blamed on the "new SW" - including printer jams, network failures - anything.
"I hate two things: bigotry, and the dutch."
And now I find them combined in one handy
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
"I disagree, but I have no facts to back up my opinion."
That's what "I'm not going to bother to explain" means to me.
"Just learned to count"? I know the US educational system has a bad reputation, but isn't this a bit of an exaggeration?
Who was the Slashdick who modded me redundant? I can't really think of a more appropriate topic for this post and for this forum.
The global balance of power is shifting more rapidly right now than in the last 100 years, and America (by most calculations) would appear
to be the big loser. America has very little industrial/export capacity left and two if its remaining powerhouse industries are tech
and pharma. I'm a huge supporter of OSS, and yet I frequently wonder about larger issues like the general balance of trade because
geopolitically and economically it is clear that America is teetering.
Redundant? Uh... wow. Sorry for boring you with uninteresting and non-current issues.
Yar screw Sony and Micro$oft. Wii rocks. Apple really loves me. SCO is stoopid. Yay Google. LOL Penguins, get it? OMG Ponies! Yawn.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
> "You say "National self interest" as if it's a good thing."
You live in one of the wealthiest nations in the world. Your life is cushy compared to people elsewhere.
You think that's because you deserve it? Because you're smart? Talented?
Unusually so?
Hmm...
I took a driving license test in Andhra Pradesh (a state just north of Tamil Nadu). I was required to take a computer based multiple choice questionnaire that was hosted on a RH box. And that was two years ago.
"I find your comment to be very pompous."
Did I express some opinion in my comment?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
I, for one, am embarrassed for my country because of the likes of Microsoft. World Domination with such a patently inferior product is such an American trait, and the reason most of the world hates us. For now, I'll back other American tech companies like Apple, and any other inventive and inspiring company. When (if) Microsoft starts making compelling products, I'll start rooting for them.
This is Slashdot. People here believe that the Internet is creating a common global playing field. What they have no clue about is just how comfortable they are as a result of US hegemony. So while kids here are proudly waving the banner of equality, they're getting their asses kicked unbeknownst to themselves. Its sad and funny. They don't realize that "equality" also means "wage equality" with workers in Bulgaria. They're cheering their own economic demise. Welcome to Slashdot.
Maybe you should read up on the economics of multinational coporations. They only pay their taxes in the cheapest countries. They somehow magically never "earn" anything in the expensive ones.
While the distinction between ta-IN and ta-SL is well-received (I don't identify myself as Tamizh, but understand a fair bit, and have friends from both sides of the Palk Straits), I'll still have to call you humourless. :-)
More than mere navel gazing.
Your arguments are the same arguments that I head on why IBM should remain in the lead back in the 80s. And just like today, IBM was killing innovation and lots of good jobs. In fact, it was the reason why I became a big supporter of MS. By mid 90's, I was very opposed to MS. It was obvious that having a single monopolistic company who expands by taking over partners will lead to lower jobs, not more. IBM did this, so has MS. Once MS loses its monopoly, the marketplace will be free and we will quickly see a very large number of software companies and jobs, similar to what was in the 90s.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Microsoft is in a "can't lose" situation with VISTA in the developed world - OEM systems will all be shipped with it no questions asked, and most businesses will drink the TCO cool-aid and go with what they think is safe. But the margins are much tighter in the developing world, making proprietary software unaffordable. Their choice is either piracy, (and MS is really putting the squeeze on that) or FOSS.
If FOSS can do the job at all they will use it, even if there are a few warts to deal with. The windows install base will start to erode not in America or Europe as expected, but in the emerging markets. MS themselves knew that when they came out with those international editions of XP at fire sale prices, but they were deliberately crippled in how many applications they could run.
My rights don't need management.
Pose a thread? Post a thread!
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
I know it' a little offtopic but I think it's necessary to get this straight in a passionless manner, before a terrorism/LTTE discussion starts.
The Tamils are one people (what ever that precisely means), who live in India and Sri Lanka.
In India they live in the union state Tamil Nadu ("Nadu" is Tamil and means land/country, so Tamil Nadu means land of the Tamils) and in Sri Lanka (or in Tamil "Izham", "Ilam" or "Eelam") they live in the so called Tamil Eelam (the TE part of LTTE) so "the Tamil part of Sri Lanka".
The Tamils form one linguistic and cultural group. They share a long and impressive history (e.g. look up Sangam or Chola).
The Tamils of India have a highly ambiguous postition to the conflict in Sri Lanka and the LTTE. As much as they feel empathy for "their Tamil brothers" of Sri Lanka and a very strong Tamil nationalism on both sides of the Palk strait, they were not very enthusiastic about the murdering of their (the Indian) President by the LTTE. Supporting the LTTE is illegal in Tamil Nadu.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
The world does not hate the American people or for that matter the British. Huge numbers of migrant workers struggling to get into both countries suggest the opposite. What they hate is Bush and Blair and their very rich puppet masters. It is very sad that the USA and UK may pay a high human and economic price for Bush's (read neocon) vision of world dominatrion.
VOC was the first multinational corporation in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Co
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
Aside from your obvious racist attitude, the concept of zero and the rules governing it for modern mathematics were first described in India. Since this is the first axiom for natural numbers it could be argued that the Indians were actually the first to be able to count as we understand it today.
Bob
Listen to my latest album here
Hell, to start with 99% of computers ran pirated windows, no revenue for Microsoft anyway. Why should one care if they migrate to OSS.
Bubd bud bud bud. Budbud. Bud bud bud.
In a true free market, you are right. America would not suffer. But that is not to be the case.
A number of countries are moving away from dollars. The most important ones are OPEC's. In fact, the middle east is trying to create their own gold coinage, or just a simply burse. That will bring great pressures to bear on the dollars. There would be no issue. Basically, the dollar would fall, our exports would rise, so would the dollar.
The problem is that China is waging a war on America. They have tied their yen to our dollar. Even though their value will sink and the 100 billions of dollars that they have will go down as well, they will stay tied to us. The reason? Because they will deny us the export capabilities until they are in control of the world economy. And combined with a rapidly growing military, they will do what they say is right. BTW, not only will the go after Taiwain, but I would guess that very large land to the north of them loaded with resources and having very few ppl (relatively speaking) will be reclaimed as theirs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Now they've gone and done it! We have trouble competing now, fer goodness sake, with the burden of our stupid government and even stupider CxO's on our backs. How in the hell can we compete with companies that don't pay the M$ tax? How can we possibly compete with companies that don't struggle with the countless bugs in M$ software everyday?
yes, me too. It was only a joke guys.
PS: I love your John Foxx themed name!
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
Wow. I'll say it again: I haven't made any arguments. Nor have I expressed any opinions.
Apparently everyone here feels so strongly on this subject that they're asassinating me for even asking the question.
Wow.
Easy people. Settle.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
More examples: Indian Railways reservation system runs unix/vms and it's online sales are the highest ecommerce sales in the entire AsiaPac. Jet Air runs it's in flight video on demand system on a customized linux which is good enough to eat. Over 200 terminals with touch screens, streaming over 100 video options from a single server (cluster). Always reboots during takeoff for some reason though. That's when you can see identical console messages flying by on every screen. All High Courts (over 30 i think) and the supreme court are on RH (judges laptops dual boot to windows for 'watching movies' & voip .... )
Somehow, the cost factors and convenience of fiddling with the system is very attractive to Indians. Don't like to take too much pains to contribute back though.
There used to be some excellent local distros too which died off since there was no quick (as in 1-2 years) revenue models
Is this not essentially the same argument we heard three decades ago when consumers on the coasts started buying smaller, cheaper, higher quality Japanese cars instead of the gas hungry, shoddily built, creations from Detroit that cornered like buckboards? It's not MY fault that Detroit didn't start delivering cars that (sort of) met my needs until the 1990s. The American Automobile industry wasn't killed by its consumers or competitors. It commited suicide.
It's likewise not MY fault that Microsoft is not delivering superior products with accessible source code at reasonable prices. If Microsoft's perception of its long term self interest is flawed (and I think it is) why blame the messengers?
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
...it'll be India.
I know a lot of us have experienced the despair of offshore IT "help desks" and many of those are in India. But they're just cowboys jumping on the outsourcing bandwaggon. Their days are numbered, for the most part.
This part of the business gives a false impression of what the state of IT expertise in India is *really* like. It's pretty darn good. There are plenty of highly competent IT people there and, yes they generally have a huge advantage in terms of cost-of-living vs. expected-income. However, despite the rhetoric about the Internet making geographical location irrelevant, I don't see it happening just yet. For most of my work I still have to fly to the client's site.
But, in their own back yard, Indian IT workers are in a position to do what the hell they like. They have the expertise, culture and work ethic to make it work and there is no way that anyone can force a second-choice solution on them. And if they see MS as second choice...
Isn't most software in that part of the globe pirated anyways?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
>PS: I love your John Foxx themed name! :-)
Thanks and good spot!
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Indian outsourcing industry cannot survive based on BPO etc. The software industry in India must strive to create original products and market them aggresively. After all Microsoft creates products in Bangalore, India (http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/pr/stories/132596. html)
and Markets to the World from Richmond.
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
The article almost reads like he's doing this specifically to piss off Microsoft, or to get them to lower their prices. So you're switching to open source, just do it and shut up already.
It's what L.A. SMOG would have been if nothing were done about it all these years. There is an ever-present cloud of toxicity throughout the sub-continent of more than ONE BILLION PEOPLE.
The prostration starts with rampant piracy and ubiquitousness of Windows and Office. Then there is a whole bunch of idiots developing everything on Visual Studio (again, mostly pirated).
Microsoft indulges in heavy influence peddling by donating to schools, states' education programs etc. by one or other means. Their motto is to catch 'em young.
The media is mostly bought off with huge spends on Microsoft ads, and journalists hardly know the difference between Free Software, Open Source and their own hindsides. (If it weren't for the FSF India chapter, which is based in a state dominated by Communist parties, software patents would have crept in unnoticed when the Indian polity prostrated to the US' WTO hegemony in IPRs.)
Corporates will be corporates, and choose that which gives them the quickest advantage. Profits always beat ideology, or if I rephrase it, profits are the best ideology. If Microsoft gives the most integrated solutions with widespread support, they will naturally not want to squander their resources on experiments.
Still, it is a good sign that sane voices within various State and Central govt. bodies are being heard. Southern states are more open to FOSS, Gujarat also seems to be heading that way, but Maharashtra, which is the new IT destination seems to be leaning towards Microsoft due to the aforesaid lobbying.
Perhaps Vista and its strict DRM/License enforcement will turn more people away from free software to Free software, within a year or two. More eye-candy introduced to Linux with Compiz and Beryl will certainly help, I believe. Now we need more games and driver support for 3D in Linux. Oh, and a unified package installation system.
Wishful thinking, I know.
Chat with other atheists http://secularchat.org
A hit! See the 07:20 Austin Powers reply post for further info.
But why didn't you mention the Indian mastery of mathematics as well.
You only score 1/2 point!
Troll Organiser
The Tamil Tigers are not terrorists. They have an Air Force.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
The proper solution for governments, indicidentally, is OPEN SOURCE SOTWARE, that is OPERATING SYSTEM NEUTRAL/AGNOSTIC. That is to say, it should run equally on Windows, Linux and Macintosh without too much problem. the operating system is not an interesting question (in fact, it can be OSS but microsoft only... i dont care) any more than the mouse is. the open-ness or closed-ness of the application software itself - that is, the bits of code that embody government policy about voting, welfare, whatever are the important bits to be OSS as long as we have reasonable trust that the underlying OS is fair (and, despite whatever hyperbole you might see here on slashdot, windows and osx are both certainly 'fair' in this respect - microsoft has not created any OS hooks that anybody knows or reasonably suspects to, say, detect voting software running on xp and change the results even though the software itself is correct).
Your arguments are the same arguments that I head on why IBM should remain in the lead back in the 80s. ... [H]aving a single monopolistic company who expands by taking over partners will lead to lower jobs, not more. IBM did this, so has MS. Once MS loses its monopoly, the marketplace will be free and we will quickly see a very large number of software companies and jobs, similar to what was in the 90s.
An analysis that I've seen that's worth considering is: The computer industry has always had two "markets", the business/consumer market where people don't understand computers, and the tech/scientific market where people do understand computers. These two markets have always been separate, with very little crossover. The business/consumer market has always been a monopoly, because people just buy "computers" and refuse to even learn enough to understand that there are more than one kind of computer. The tech/scientific market has always been competitive, with many kinds of hardware, OS, etc., and a lot of competition.
Given that this situation has persisted for around a half century, with no real signs of changing, the reasonable prediction is that the business/consumer sector will remain a monopoly. Microsoft may fade for some reason, as IBM did in the 1980s due to their inability to make a sellable desktop computer. But this will just lead to the rise of another single supplier that will monopolize that sector and lock out all competitors.
OTOH, the tech/scientific sector will probably remain the arena of competition and innovation that it has always been. The companies that sell in that sector will make occasional sales to non-techies, mostly to organizations with people in power who listen to their technical experts. But such organizations are rare, and will continue to be rare, so such inroads will remain rare and fragile, subject to changes in management that put people back in power who are resistant to technical expertise.
An open market in the computer business would be interesting to see, but I wouldn't bet on it ever developing. You first have to overcome the desire of most purchasers to learn as little as possible about their computers, and there's little sign of this changing anywhere.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
A 'lakh' just refers to the number 10^5, and 'crore' is 10^7. They don't specifically imply money, but buying something for a 'lakh' obvious means a 10^5 rupees.
By the way, comma separators in India are often written like 3,00,00,000.
... every time an IT system is converted from Windows to OSS, a chair in Redmond gets its wings!
I used to run Linux as my desktop 95% of the time. That was for about 4 years. Then I switched back to windows.
Quicken is much better than GNU Cash. On windows, I can choose between Photoshop Elements and GIMP. On Linux, I can only run GIMP. I can also run Open Office on windows.
Same for PostgreSQL, JBoss, Eclipse.
I got busy and no longer had time to figure out why when I upgraded my OS software, my CD burner didn't work anymore or my sound driver, or my digital camera program stopped working.
Also, Eclipse works, but you can't use it to print (this was over a year ago) on Linux/Unix.
Yet another feature.
The final kicker was when my system failed and I needed to get a new computer up and running quickly. Do I re-create my triple boot system out of the Windows box I bought?
I had just gotten Fedora Core with SELinux properly configured (which took some doing back then) just before the crash.
Another big annoyance was trying to do my taxes and doing something simple like reports of transactions for a given category.
The OSS answer: learn Scheme and write your own reports. Yeah right.
With windows, I spend a whole lot less time keeping my desktop going. I have more software options. I can buy hardware without searching the web to see if it is compatible.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
In India we fly carpets, not chairs.
More than mere navel gazing.
How the fuck does this relate to article news, stop bitching around and try to live peaceful in the country which adopted you.
I guess that lets Israel off the hook too.
I think he was just making a joke. Whether it was appropriate or not is a matter of opinion.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
stop bitching around and try to live peaceful in the country which adopted you.
Maybe the country that "adopted" him should quit slapping him around like a red-headed stepchild.
Many have been wondering about this. It is plain, warped economics that is to blame. Do however see the Pune Linux Users Group. There are many like them, and all is not lost.
If you mean PCQLinux or LiFY, they started off as ripoffs and faded into irrelevance as the availability of free major distro CDs and higher bandwidth grew. You have to maintain a distro and make it bug-free to make it popular.
Chat with other atheists http://secularchat.org
Doubtless the likes of Fxxx and their right-wing backers want you to believe everything is terrible so you will accept lower wages and poor working conditions to protect you from the terrifying march of the Chinese, but it would be a good idea to look a little outside the US internal FUD industry and see what the world is really like.
Pining for the fjords
You fucking retard. South Carolina has a population of 4 million people. Tamil Nadu has 61 million people, with 30k civil servants.
I'm sure they're very similar IT infrastructures. Really.
Not to mention a few posts up from your extremely insightful post, the issue is discussed in comparison to the UK's government IT infrastructure/economy.
Slashdot. News for Nerds, comments for retards.
You made a couple of typos
That's the song we've been hearing about closed source software making you rich. The "economic benefits" of Vista make me laugh every time I read about them. It's like a casino, they don't build and run them by giving money away. It's better to pool your money and talent with people who share.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
In fact, as far progress for foss goes, I think I would rather see them using them msft.
And coming back to India - that's brilliant news. Think that India has over 1 billion people. All of them will be Linux users. And finally they will come as cheap labour (IT support) to UK/US to promote FOSS. And don't forget about opportunities of opening cheap Linux support call centres there.
By my calculation we're talking about 0.003% of those 1 billion people. And Indian call centres for linux will likely be pricier than their Windows counterparts (smaller pool, rising demand). Those call centres are already rising in cost anyway.
Not that it isn't a promising sign... but to suggest all of India will embrace linux seems unrealistic.
MS et.all are toast. And with them out, our IT staff becomes second-rate as they become irrelevant.
Your perspective has drifted and needs to be fixed. You seem to equate M$ with US and US technical excellence. Most people would throw away a meter like you, but a new faceplate and a few twists should have you back in operation.
Developers and IT staff at IBM, Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntoo, Mepis, Chrysler, Lowes, GE, and so on and so forth, would tell you that M$ and those who know only that are already second rate. They would not share you assessment of "our IT staff," nor do they fear foreign "competition". In their world, the more the merrier. American excellence does not have to be anti-social.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Apparently everyone here feels so strongly on this subject that they're asassinating me for even asking the question.
Uhm, look again at what you asked:
Are you telling me that "our loathing of Microsoft" and "a shot to their own shared national foot" do not convey an opinion or attempt an argument? Are you stupid or just ignorant? Oh, and when are you going to stop beating your wife? Just asking.
Is anyone tracking how many of these announcements actually succeed, vs. how many give up after getting enough concessions / advertising dollars / lobbying money from microsoft?
Certainly the LTTE are NOT on the same scale as Al-Queda, etc.
Yes, that is why they assasinate the premiers of other countries, such as the former Prime Minister of India.
I'm originally from Tamil Nadu, and trust you me, violence is not any way to garner support. LTTE is deemed a terrorist organization in India and around the world and rightfully so.
"Had there not been a war, Sri Lanka would be on a par with Korea and other far east "tigers""
.. if only he had learnt the basics of capitalism like the leaders of South Korea, Singapore, and Japan did.
That statement, which is frequently flung around by sri lankans, is BULLSHIT.
Sri Lanka's economy was in the shitter before the 1983 riots. It was in the shitter before 1979. It was always crap. The economy is shit because sri lanka tried to become a socialist economy which ended up simply being "anti capitalist" with ZERO socialist features.
The reason why the economy was bad was because of anti-capitalist economic policies. That is, the nationalisation (theft) of businesses and the nationalisation (theft) of people's land. The implementation of inefficient state run businesses.
They also closed their door to imports and placed massive protectionist policies.
That's the fundamental reason why the economy is in the shitter. It's the same for many other countries as well. Countries like South Korea and Singapore didnt implement these policies and THAT is why they are rich. REad their histories.
I've had it with Sri Lankans walking arouind thinking the war is the reason for the economy being crap.
There is one connection though, the jerk by the name of Bandaranaike and his wife who caused the ethnic conflict by trying to implement a "sinhala only, one language" and a racially biased anti-Tamil education quota system is the same moron who further dumped the country into the shitter by implementing crazy economic policies under the guise of socialism
Btw, this is the same reason India's economy was in the toilet.
You are going to hear variations on the same theme here and everywhere. As organization and individual user discovers the advantages of free software they will tell you about it. The move has already reached far beyond the Slashdot community, so you will see more "mainstream" media telling you the same things. Cut them some slack, everyone who's been raised on non free software goes through the same transformantion and feels obligated to tell people about the things they were lied about for so long. Free software is the next big thing in computing. When the story dies the normal opinion will be, "I can't believe anyone is still running that M$ stuff."
2007 is the year of Linux. By the end of the year, the tipping point will be passed and all of the major vendors will be considering it as a pre-install or be losing serious business, kind of like Dell and Intel.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
OMG, the US tech industry hasn't heard such good news in the past seven years!
India is officially getting out of Enterprise-level IT!! With an entire nation being forced into "hobbyist" status, the US tech industry can finally rebound from the 'outsourcing' craze!
Hmmm... either that, or it's just going to be a windfall for China's tech outsourcing. Time will tell, I suppose, but either way, India has announced it is offically OUT of the mainstream and enterprise tech industries! WOOHOO!!!
They made private schools illegal or extremely burdensome to operate, and then placed a quota on how many tamils can get into the state run universities (if you're from a tamil district even if you had good grades your chances of getting into a college ..all of which are state owned .. was very low).
.. the practicality is that some groups will get served first while others feel shafted no matter what u do.
Add this to state run telecom, transportation, and electricity services. All of which tended to bias themselves (intentionally or not) in non tamil regions.
Obviously this made people pissed. If you're a tamil tax payer (taxpayer = reviled rich capitalist and cause of all problems), basically you got completely shafted by "socialism" and the policy of state run monopolies. So yeah that added to causing the conflict. The fact is, if you are going to have oppressive state run monopolies
Mind you in all of this the educated or somewhat wealthy who knew how to run businesses simply up and left the country (and went to places like Singapore).
Microsoft is in a "can't lose" situation with VISTA in the developed world - OEM systems will all be shipped with it no questions asked, and most businesses will drink the TCO cool-aid and go with what they think is safe.
A lot of businesses still run on W2K and 98 because XP took too much control. Those businesses are not likely to use Vista, which takes even more control and breaks even more applications they did not want to spend money on.
Microsoft has failed to deliver what business wants, low costs and reliability. Instead, they have spent their development effort on GUI enhancements, easily circumvented dissapearing ink and other destabilizing DRM. An employee who wants a copy of their email that they company wants to vanish is going to print it. If they can't print it they will take out a digital camera. Instead of making the fundamental design changes required to fix system security, M$ bought one of the many ineffective anti-virus tools and eliminated the rest. The interface redesign is exactly what business did not ask for and what M$ themselves has been FUDing about as the "cost of retraining" in their own promotional material. The result of this and other efforts is a buggy, 10 Gigabyte install that sucks electricity and hardware that no one will be familiar with and no one asked for. Free software is looking very attractive to people who consider computers another tool that just needs to keep working.
The future is anything but set, but the world is leaning heavily away from Microsoft.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I hope the Tamils don't go independent. Too many people immediately demand to split apart the moment they are unhappy. Most people are better off economically with the strength of larger resources. All the countries formed by the breakup of Yugoslavia and the USSR have had to build everything on their own with little support and will likely always be limited in growth.
At that price, MSFT put in a quote that was higher than what they charge for Academics and students. I checked a few links and prices and this one seems to be about the average price for students.
Now, if you were India, would you feel like you were getting a good deal when you know that students and academics are buying the product for about 1/2 of what you were quoted? I wouldn't be happy.
Yeah, why would anyone possibly think that India could produce anything significant in mathematics. And that's just after a quick wikipedia search for things I already know. Obviously there are many more great mathematicians from India.
The second "S" in OSS stands for software. It's not OSS software, it's OSS.
Oh god, what have I become? *pulls the trigger*
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
I lived in Sri Lanka for a period that included the Black July episode.
I am very saddened by what has happened there over the past 25 years. I recognize the Tamils have legitimate grievances, but after all this time the failure to achieve a political settlement reflects very badly on both sides.
A few years ago I used to be part of the Chennai LUG (Chennai is the capital of Tamil Nadu). I used linux simply because it was fun to hack, and was never one for the advocacy. But there were a bunch of guys in the LUG who were a lot more into the whole freedom thing and would go to great lengths to educate the public and/or meet with the political honchos and get them to make some changes. I used to think they were crazy (still do :-), but also admired their perseverance. I guess their hard work and a lot of others' is paying off.
Why would a developing nation worry about using american owned and priced software? Linux is free, they can train their own people to support it and make software. Hell they don't even have to respect the GPL, so they can keep everything they do in house. Then if it turns out to be worth anything they could sell it to other developing countries. This scenario would of course suck for america, but isn't this what linux is supposed to do? Destroy the US?
If you are genuinely ignorant of why, I'll let you know:
What the feck has India choosing FOSS got to do with the US? Microsoft, yes, because they are being replaced. The US, no,because both Red Hat and SuSE (Novell) are US companies.
Your comment has bugger all to do with this and so is redundant.
In much the same way, the recent news of Saddam's death getting out on YouTube getting a question "What does this mean for the US?" would be redundant. Tangentially affects them because they are the main mover of the chnge in Iraq.
But only tangentially.
Secondary note: the respondent who said they found you pompous was led to that belief because the only reason for you to bring up that question ('cos it's redundant - I may have mentioned this before) is if you are so US-centric that you wonder about ANY event "How does this affect the US?". Rather narcissictic.
The only difference between the typical terrorist and the typical freedom fighter is which news report they're on.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
These are the same tamils, ethnically speaking. Different country, sure. But the same people nonetheless.
All your favorite sites in one place!
I think this whole discussion should be irrelvant. All OS' are based on systems designed over twenty years ago by Technical people for technical people. Back then Technical people were the majority of computer users. Not anymore the average user really just does not care. They want to do there email, run their programs and not be bothered. And there needs to be an OS that does that. I have experience with Apple, Linux, several Unix flavors, DOS, and Windows going back over twenty years, and I don't think any one of the OS' allow the average user to just USE their computer. The Beast in Redmond needs to be slain, but I don't think Linux should be the one to do it. Something new needs to be made.
The whole thing.
No health care costs lets outsourcing come in cheaper still. In a land where it is legal to rape (for now), it's only a matter of time when it comes into the 21st -- er, 20th century.
When I said 'you' I meant 'you' as an LTTE symathizer. I don't care if your parents are Indian, Tamil, German or chimp.
I did, however, follow a time in the earlier eighties, that is long before said prime minister was assassinated, when the then Sri Lankan president saw it fit, to stand by when probably a thousand Tamils were slaughtered for being just that, Tamils.
Oh please. Far more Indians and Black South Africans have been slaughtered (by the British and the Apartheid regime), and yet they chose a dignified peaceful path to their emancipation.
Including assassinating an Indian prime minister (though India had tried to interfere, anxious an independent Tamil in Sri Lanka would stir unrest in Tamil Nadu).
I find the 'though India had tried to interfere' very interesting, especially when you say "I don't condone or deny any later atrocity". You are condoning it. Ironically, this assassination was a monumental strategic blunder: it turned Indian Tamils away from the LTTE and made LTTE a very bad smell indeed among Indians sympathetic to it. Indeed LTTE commanders have gone on the record saying it was a mistake (no thoughs or buts in that interview).
Go somewhere random
He wasn't a sitting PM, true. However, he was campaigning in a general election in which opinion polls predicted a win for his party (of which he was the nominated PM). Indeed his party did win and another person was appointed PM.
Anyway, the bottom line is that these guys assassinated one of India's best-known leaders. If you think that made them many friends in India, think again.
Go somewhere random
I for one welcome this initiative. Looking at the big picture we can expect that India will fall behind in terms of productivity and give the rest of us the edge we need to compete.
I'm serious. Really.
> But what they do is more on the side of self-defense than terrorism.
Yeah sure, assassinating foreign leaders is self defense. Of course. With that knack for spin you should have worked for Goebbels.
It's kind of funny how they end up going back into the embrace of Microsoft. :(
The issue is Microsoft. If they had chosen RedHat there would be no Microsoft involvement, and nobody would be crying foul.
Before you appreciate ..politics plays a major role than cost and usability. M$ can easily buy off these politicians into using M$
0 3/newindpress/newindpress15072003.htm
On linux front lots of activities by the Gov..G.O way back in 2002 on OSS.. http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/IT/it-e-10-2002.htm
Linux based OS compatible for Govt offices says experts http://www.tn.gov.in/pressclippings/archives/pc20
I am not American - neither is 95% of the world's population.
... we outnumber you. Play nicely.
I'd say that "technological freedoms and associated liberties" are very much in my "national self-interest", and in the "national self-interest" of 95% of the world's population.
Except that I'd also suggest that it is in the long-term interests of America - heck, even in the short-term, many firms would benefit from greater competition and choice within the IT market. Isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work?
You fail to understand the cost of Microsoft to America. How much time do you think is wasted on dealing with spam, viruses, re-installing unstable Windows, etc, etc? America needs Microsoft like it needs more calories in its diet.
Of course, if you think ripping off other nations is in America's self-interest, just remember
I am anarch of all I survey.
The tiger condition viz India is similar to Al Qaida and US. India too nurtured the tigers and trained them for its own interests but that move backfired in the form of the former PM's assassination.
OSS? Not hardly. Switching to SUSE simply means switching from one department of M$ to another.
There are some prepared to pay it.
Some others clearly aren't.
Oh, I say this as a home Linux desktop user for the last 9 years (and on and off at work, as permitted by my different employers).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I could post mine as well, there is no point.
The point is that MS is desperately diversifying (game consoles, music players, media) because they know their products are not innovative or reliable (the mountains of security reports and fixes are testament to that, your anecdotal evidence pales in comparision to that).
MS products are in everybody's desktops because most people have got no choice and MS is always inventing new marketing ploys to ensure things remain that way (unnecessary and confussing product differentiation, artificial restrictions like prohibition of runing ceratin versions of Vista in virtual machines).
An innovative company whose prodicts work flawlessly does not need to break the law and to constantly shift the ground under its costumers' feet in order to keep their costum.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Why?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.