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The Recording Industry's Failed Digital Strategy

An anonymous reader sends us a link to the Toronto Star, where Michael Geist has a terrific article on how the record labels got the Internet completely wrong. While somewhat specific to Canada, the article' arguments are more broadly applicable. The article links together the misplaced reliance on DRM and the Canadian industry's advocacy for increasing levies on blank media to demonstrate just how wrong-headed this strategy has turned out to be.

227 comments

  1. Network providers by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Interesting

    TFA:

    Indeed, there are better solutions out there - levies tied to network providers make more sense (and are already replicated by cable television levies for retransmission of content) - and there is a need to cover both peer-to-peer and the non-commercial use of content in user-generated content.

    So now what? A tax on internet access? Charging per port?

    1. Re:Network providers by ozphx · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not entirely without precedent if you consider British TV licences on "free to air" TV.

      Of course it raises the question whether an industry association should be responsible for delivering this "tax" (or likely a small fraction) back to it's members. Kindof assuming they represent all copyright holders.

      Perhaps a tie in with the Office of Film and Literature [and Music] Classification to distribute these taxed royalties back on "registered works". Not entirely convinced a government department would be any fairer than an industry association - and would probably be strongly influenced by the industry associations.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    2. Re:Network providers by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      '' So now what? A tax on internet access? Charging per port? ''

      That would be stupid. A very simple method: You can rent either "internet access" or "internet access with music/video download license". The "music/video download license" goes straight to the RIAA/MPAA and gets distributed somehow. And it allows you to download, store and play any music or videos as long as you pay for this license. Should the RIAA try to sue you for downloading from Kazaa, you just send them a copy of your ISP bill that includes the "music/video download license".

      Wouldn't that make everyone happy plus generate lots of revenue for the music industry?

    3. Re:Network providers by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      If I'm paying for the music then I'd be demanding a download server with plenty of bandwidth. Not the right to use p2p.

    4. Re:Network providers by Dion · · Score: 1

      That makes perfect sense and everybody would be happy with it, so it will never happen.

      At least if the past actions of the MAFIAA is anything to go by:)

      --
      -- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
    5. Re:Network providers by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I download a track from my favourite band, then I see that I morally ought to be making a payment to that specific band. I don't see that the RIAA, or any recording company, come into the deal at all. I don't see why they should. They're anachronisms. Same with movies. If I download a movie, I need to make a payment to the people who made it. I don't see why I need to make a payment to MPAA, or any other similar body.

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    6. Re:Network providers by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1
      So now what? A tax on internet access? Charging per port?

      The way things are going, they'll charge per mouse click.

      --
      Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
    7. Re:Network providers by yabos · · Score: 1

      That's still a complete friggin rip off. They just assume already that everyone is a pirate in Canada. We pay fees on blank CDs and they're trying to get fees on iPods and other portable storage devices(or maybe they have already I can't remember) because obviously the only thing they're good for is listening to pirated music. If they get away with some tax on the internet new it's just another complete screw over for the consumer.

    8. Re:Network providers by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The "music/video download license" goes straight to the RIAA/MPAA and gets distributed somehow.

      It's the "somehow" part that bothers me. There are already tons of places to legally purchase and download music. The distribution of the money is much more accurate, because the songs that are downloaded are directly accounted for. The internet opens up the market for all kinds of publishers and self-forming independent labels.

      What I'm saying is that there is no need to legalize and then tax p2p, with trade groups and governmental red tape involved. I can understand arguments against DRM when it comes to personal backups. However, I don't see the reasoning for being allowed to share your copy of a song with 1,000 of your closest internet friends.

    9. Re:Network providers by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a levy on premium newsgroup access? Or a reinstatement of binary newsgroups for ISPs with the fee?

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    10. Re:Network providers by mandelbr0t · · Score: 1

      These methods all still fail to take into account the overarching problem -- how do we entice people who have to this point established their right to use P2P systems to obtain content to start paying the bill? Further, this method is a flat rate; it favours those who leech large amounts of content to those who actually listen to everything they download.

      So little of my Internet usage is actually related to the concerns of the Copyright lobby. It seems as inappropriate to levy my network usage as to levy my blank media (which also rarely gets used to hold such copyrighted content, and when it does it falls well within my Fair Dealing rights. I can still make a mix CD from music I have rights to, can't I?). Given the option, I'll simply opt not to pay said fees since they make assumptions about my network usage that aren't true.

      I want the ability to purchase full rights to whatever media I've purchased: backup, reencode and distribute among my devices accordingly. If that doesn't happen, well, I guess I'll just have to go back to downloading large chunks of unidentifiable content over encrypted channels. Sorry, but the end-user holds all the cards here. The industry is looking for a way to move past it's obsolescence; the end-user can already find high-quality content for free. Therefore the price the industry needs to compete with is $0.00. Good luck with that.

      --
      "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    11. Re:Network providers by MilesAttacca · · Score: 1

      This is exactly the philosophy I subscribe to. My downloads of music or video are, first and foremost, to try out a new band, or a band's new releases, or a film I've heard/read about; if I happen to like what I hear and/or see, I check Amazon for a good deal. Thanks to what I read online, and what I can try online, my musical tastes have expanded dramatically in just the past year. My only restriction from giving back is a high school budget vs. the RIAA's cartel pricing, so it can be months (with all the other worthy things I spend money on) before I do finally get around to that CD. I do still maintain that effort, though.

      I also download copies of what I already legally own on other media. Though some would like to say it's of questionable legality, is there anything wrong with paying a few bucks for a Pink Floyd cassette and not wanting to pay again just to get it in "the best format ever" (after records and 8-tracks and cassettes and CDs...)?

      If the RIAA and MPAA would loosen their grip and stop making it into such a "forbidden fruit" issue, maybe the general public could actually hear this presented as a valid argument. I like to know what I'm paying for beyond the hype of paid-off disk jockeys and industry-owned magazines -- especially when an hour-long audio experience makes my wallet $15 lighter.

      And, if you want other people to play fair, you have to start playing fair yourself.

      --
      98% of America's teens drink alcohol, smoke, and have sex. Put this in your sig if you like bagels.
  2. DRM is on the way out by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anyone can see it. If EMI is preparing to offer DRM free downloads, and everyone but the other majors want to do away with it, it's only a matter of time before it's eliminated. As much as the content industry might hate it, consumer demand is more powerful than their distribution policy. If they think they can force draconian DRM on people who won't accept it, then their sales will just decline further and they will not fix any of their current problems.

    It took them years to allow internet distribution in any format. It might take a few more before they will allow it in a format which will gain wide acceptance, but ultimately it's in their best interest as well as the consumers'.

    1. Re:DRM is on the way out by BGatesFan · · Score: 0

      Anyone can see it. If EMI is preparing to offer DRM free downloads, and everyone but the other majors want to do away with it, it's only a matter of time before it's eliminated.
      It'd be great if EMI released DRM-free music, but I'll believe it when I can download it.
    2. Re:DRM is on the way out by ozphx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If they think they can force draconian DRM on people who won't accept it, then their sales will just decline further and they will not fix any of their current problems.

      I wish you we're right. I just imagine my mum coming up against these artificial restrictions. I bet she will just assume its a technical limitation. (DVD region coding was "probably something to do with the southern hemisphere" for her - maybe they spin it backwards ;)

      Education of all your mates is important - but you run the risk of sounding like a whiney evangalist. Normally when I get asked about some use thwarted by DRM I just say "yeah, mate, your player could do that, but the movie publisher wont let you". Then if they ask I can drop an explanation.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    3. Re:DRM is on the way out by tmarthal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      DRM may be on the way out, but watermarking will be on the way in.

      I.e. you can do whatever you want with the file, but there is a digitial hash somewhere in the file that uniquely identifies you, so don't share it, else we will sue.

    4. Re:DRM is on the way out by AusIV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      DRM may be on the way out, but watermarking will be on the way in.

      Personally, I'd love to see watermarking replace DRM. There will be no artificial limitations on what people can do with their media - I could copy all my DVDs to my computer (and play them on Linux) and have a great media center without having to worry about violating the DMCA, yet the media companies would still have a way of pursuing actual copyright violators. I think it's quite reasonable for the media industry to want to protect their investment, and water marking allows them to do just that while allowing the consumer to use their media the way they want it.

    5. Re:DRM is on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In Canada, as the law stands now, I cannot give you a copy of the music (this is illegal distribution), but you can take a copy of my music for yourself (fair use under the copyright law). This explicitly also applies to making a copy for myself of online music.

    6. Re:DRM is on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So bring it on, I say. This scenario is best of both worlds - it gives us the freedom to easily format shift, backup, keep a copy in my car and all the other things that I should reasonably expect to be able to do with things I purchase, but restricts (or penalises) people who decide to try to illegally re-distribute content or otherwise profit from crime.

    7. Re:DRM is on the way out by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you can do whatever you want with the file, but there is a digitial hash somewhere in the file that uniquely identifies you, so don't share it, else we will sue.
       
      If I buy the product in a store for cash, who gets identified in this digital hash? The clerk who sold it to me?

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    8. Re:DRM is on the way out by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > This scenario is best of both worlds - it gives us the freedom to easily format shift, backup, keep a copy in my car

      Right! Great thinkin' there!

      Oh, and good luck finding car insurance which covers the damages caused when the content industry sues you over "distribution" of the content which was stolen with your car.

    9. Re:DRM is on the way out by checkyoulater · · Score: 1

      but there is a digitial hash somewhere

      I've heard of many differing types of hash, but this digital hash of which you speak has really piqued my interest. Where can I get some?

      --
      Is that a real poncho? I mean, is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
    10. Re:DRM is on the way out by altoz · · Score: 1

      There already is DRM-free music available. It's called CD's.

    11. Re:DRM is on the way out by PinkPanther · · Score: 1
      Have you been paying attention ??

      :-)

      --
      It's a simple matter of complex programming.
    12. Re:DRM is on the way out by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      And can you download one of those? Or buy just one song off of it without buying the whole goddamn thing, including all the filler songs?

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    13. Re:DRM is on the way out by theaikidoman · · Score: 1

      And then someone will just figure out how to remove the watermark.

      Remember all these files are just a series of 1's and 0's and someone just needs to figure out which ones are the watermark and remove them.

    14. Re:DRM is on the way out by camryl · · Score: 1

      Watermarking can be a problem for people who create video mashups, amvs, songvids, etc. Of course, these might be considered infringing, but those of us who enjoy them as an art form are pushing for them to be recognized as fair use.

      --
      camryl
    15. Re:DRM is on the way out by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Those systems aren't being used anymore. The only CDs with DRM on them now that I know of are the ones that are also DVDs. Since DVDs are useful, and since all commerical DVDs have DRM, not much to be done there that hasn't been done already.
      Of course, music CDs with "useful" programs on them (and by useful, I mean they do something other than manage "rights"--for instance, they might play music vids on your computer) could still cause problems some places. Since they are "useful" for non-DRM-type things, record labels won't necc. count them as DRM...

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    16. Re:DRM is on the way out by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      You can buy a CD from Amazon or BN.com. It's like downloading--it just takes a few days longer.
      Of course, the other problem is still a problem. Even CD singles tend to have three or four songs, at least two of which you likely don't want. And the reason CD singles failed is that, when they were seriously tried, there was too little price difference between a CD single and a CD album; it's worth spending an extra four dollars for ten extra songs if you suspect that any of them are more than filler. (That is, two CD singles cost more than one CD album.) There seemed to be two possible prices for CD singles: $10 (in a market where CD albums cost at most $18 and often $14), or $0.99.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  3. Greed by JPMaximilian · · Score: 2

    The greed of these companies is astounding. They are willing to tax anything that might possibly be used as a medium for Music, just to make sure they get their cut. I don't understand how self-centered and greedy some people can be.

    --
    "I'll see you next time." - LeVar Burton
    1. Re:Greed by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      All the while justifying it all to the public with "well the artists should be compensated for their work", knowing full well the artists are just as fucked whether or not the label gets paid.

    2. Re:Greed by grolschie · · Score: 1

      They are willing to tax anything that might possibly be used as a medium for Music, just to make sure they get their cut.
      Next they will tax our minds. Afterall, once you've heard a song, it's stored in your memory. :-/
    3. Re:Greed by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Funny

      Next they will tax our minds.

            Most of the music they publish DOES tax our mind... pun intented ;)

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come to Massachusetts. You'd be amazed how greedy and self-centered people can be.

    5. Re:Greed by KoshClassic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      RIAA? How about RAAA? (that is, Recording Artists Association of America). If the artists would just get together and form a group like this, *they* could distribute the money to themselves, leaving the labels (at least on the basis of the 'ol "artists should get paid" argument) out in the cold.

      --
      Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
    6. Re:Greed by ady1 · · Score: 1

      But the question is, are they willing to give up their hyped celebrity status and earn living like a common person?

    7. Re:Greed by Smurfeur · · Score: 1

      Greed is the most powerful force on Earth, and the reason why Capitalism works.

    8. Re:Greed by klang · · Score: 1

      For the vast majority of artists, "earning a living like a common person" is already what they do...

    9. Re:Greed by splutty · · Score: 1

      supercedes the artists' right to control their distribution medium.

      And there's a stickler point for you. It's not about the artists, it's about the recording industry. There are enough artists out there that actually allow you to download their music for free, but also offer merchandise, cheap CDs, etc, without the intervention of a record label. Quite a few people I know that download music can't be bothered to pay for a CD from say EMI at $21 but are more than willing to buy a CD from an indy that offers free downloads, but also sells CDs for $8.

      The latter artist actually makes more money per CD sold than the artist that's 'under the wings' of a record label.

      I can't be arsed at the moment to give links to the enormous amount of research available that supports that fact, but I'm sure you can find it quite easilly yourself.
      --
      Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
    10. Re:Greed by deviceb · · Score: 1

      It is amazing.. this world will go down the tubes because people will need to make money off fossil fuels till were all dead.

      It's a human issue & will not be resolved by being able to download DRM free mp3s..


      Let the lord of chaos rule eh?

      --
      Kill your TV
    11. Re:Greed by Timothy+Chu · · Score: 1

      The latter artist actually makes more money per CD sold than the artist that's 'under the wings' of a record label. I don't doubt this. At some point, however, the artist chose to enter the contract w/ the record label. Why? Probably b/c of the promotional tie-ins, the distribution power, and other economies of scale in printing up physical cd's. In other words, the record industry is actually doing something for the artist. Whether you think the record industry deserves it is irrelevant because the artist chose to enter the contract.
    12. Re:Greed by grolschie · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It's been over a few decades since there has been consistently good music produced.

    13. Re:Greed by Fivo · · Score: 1

      There are enough artists out there that actually allow you to download their music for free, but also offer merchandise, cheap CDs, etc, without the intervention of a record label. Quite a few people I know that download music can't be bothered to pay for a CD from say EMI at $21 but are more than willing to buy a CD from an indy that offers free downloads, but also sells CDs for $8.

      The latter artist actually makes more money per CD sold than the artist that's 'under the wings' of a record label.

      I can't be arsed at the moment to give links to the enormous amount of research available that supports that fact, but I'm sure you can find it quite easilly yourself.

      The Polynesian bands I worked with in Hawaii have contracts with record labels that provide zero income and are mainly used to get their name out into the community. Similar to your comments, they make money from gigs and spot sales of their music; not from any RIAA contracts.

  4. Ah, some are coming around... by skoaldipper · · Score: 5, Interesting

    EMI sounds like some smart CIO refreshed their memory on the failures of DIVX; introduced in part by Circuit City to negate the early years of an open DVD format. If you wanted to "own" your movie, you just purchased a "silver" status (at more or less the same cost of a DVD) but were only able to view it on your DIVX player (and other hoops to jump through). Sound familiar? You do not need these lock down schemes to part my money from my wallet. Just look at my DVD and CD shelf. Really, you don't need DRM.

    --
    I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
    1. Re:Ah, some are coming around... by eamonman · · Score: 1

      Ahh, the fantastic feeling of tremendous irony was so unbelievably cool when I first watched my first ~700MB avi back in 2001.

      Maybe one day, someone will create a media format that is playable by all devices; phones, cameras, TVs, cars, etc. It will support infinite numbers of audio streams, video streams; support searching the web for audio or video quotes from the file you are watching/listening to; even support interactive games/chat as part of the experience. What will it be called? Obviously, the Zune format.

      --
      0- Eamonman Proud member of DNRC
    2. Re:Ah, some are coming around... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      If you wanted to "own" your movie, you just purchased a "silver" status

      Yes, and as a perfect illustration of how this was a dumb move for the consumer, all those "owned" discs became coasters the instant Divx went out of business. This shows how no consumer really ever owns ANYTHING if it's DRM'ed.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  5. I sort of agree... by BlurredOne · · Score: 1, Informative

    Although I agree that both DRM and levies applied to recordable media were a bad choice to begin with, I also don't think there is a strategy yet that properly addresses the issues of digital rights. Replacing the levy on recordable media with levies on the networks supplying the media is a bad idea. Currently, in Canada, we only pay a levy on specific media, and if we are not going to make duplicates of copyrighted material, we can buy cheaper media, and bypass the levy (or just ignore the 'levy heavy' media all together). If the levy is then put onto the internet or networks, we will be forced into paying, even if we never planned on downloading copyrighted work.

    1. Re:I sort of agree... by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      how about this solution..

      the people (canadians, americans, europeans, whatever) get to have their digital rights, and the record industry goes to the drawing board and makes a model that works?

      seriously, why do we have any obligation to them at all?

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:I sort of agree... by rts008 · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Your solution would effectively cut out the distributer/label with the current model. Any other effective model would require a complete paradigm shift in the distribution/control aspect; this is what the RIAA and MPAA are worried about- distribution rights as a business model, and they have lots of cash to throw at our lawmakers to help keep that outmoded business model viable.

      I completely agree with you, but until the money involved changes drastically, this is what we are stuck with.

      Some things can be done, as in supporting indie's from their direct sales (thus bypassing the RIAA), supporting inie filmakers that put their stuff up for download, make your own, etc.
      Admittedly, this is a limited option, but keep in mind how quick youtube.com, google.com, etc. grew.

      The 'people' or John Q. Public can be a powerful force occasionally.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    3. Re:I sort of agree... by naily · · Score: 1
      The issue is not the distribution mechanism, it's where the production costs are incurred. Record labels (and movie studios) spend a ton of money promoting their artists' work, and that's why they want the revenue.

      The trouble is that these costs don't benefit the customer, so the customer doesn't feel that the costs are justified - we don't want to pay for Britney Speirs to be played at us 4 times an hour. So, without DRM revenue, the labels/studios will have to reduce these costs and, hopefully, refocus on making better products that people notice based on their merits rather than bludgeoning the market with crass adverts.

      This doesn't address the issue of redistribution: be it piracy or just public playing. But then no medium ever has addressed this adequately. I can still photocopy my book, record my CD/DVD and play it in public. It still needs protecting from flagrant abuse, but it does not need locking down to the annoyance of every consumer.

      --
      We all live in a state of ambitious poverty. -- Decimus Junius Juvenalis
  6. Article doesnt mention DE-AACS by plasmacutter · · Score: 5, Interesting

    AACS was the advertised poster child of "perfected" DRM. Everyone kept holding that up as the end of DRM cracking. It is dead now, and suddenly nobody in the media is mentioning it.

    Trusted computing is the last on the table, though I don't really classify it's completed implementation as DRM.

    Because the "ideal" trusted computing platform is built to refuse to run unsigned code period, a "trusted computing" compliant computer really cannot be classified as general purpose any more than a box wrench could be classified as a screwdriver.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    1. Re:Article doesnt mention DE-AACS by jonwil · · Score: 1

      AACS was not cracked, what has happened is that people are taking the title keys out of the memory of software players and using it along with an implementation of the published AACS standard.

    2. Re:Article doesnt mention DE-AACS by puddpunk · · Score: 1

      True - until they found the key which generically unlocked anything encrypted by it.

    3. Re:Article doesnt mention DE-AACS by newt0311 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      AACS was not cracked, what has happened is that people are taking the title keys out of the memory of software players and using it along with an implementation of the published AACS standard.

      It doesn't matter what they do. Bottom line is that people are capable of bypassing the encryption scheme and use the content in ways contrary to the intent of AACS. Therefore, AACS has been cracked. When will the idiotic recording companies figure out that DRM is a lost cause and find another business model. Thats the biggest problem with IP and Copyright and DRM just makes it worse. With the advent of computers, it became trivial to copy distribute music etc. The response was to try and block technology. Instead what they should have done was change the business model. Business strategies are supposed to be modified to conform to the world and yield a profit, not the other way around of passing arbitrary DMCA and IP laws in a futile attempt to alter reality to fit your outdated business model.
    4. Re:Article doesnt mention DE-AACS by MrCopilot · · Score: 1
      ... any more than a box wrench could be classified as a screwdriver.

      Well, What About this, then?

      http://www.nextag.com/Inline-Folding-Multi-Tool-52 6603763/prices-html

      I whole heartedly agree with you conclusion, however flawed your analogy.

      --
      OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
  7. There's so much free stuff online... by DimGeo · · Score: 1

    ... that I'd never pay per song or per oldsk00l CDs. And yes, I *can* afford to buy stuff, I just want my money here in my bank account, thank you very much. Why waste my money on crap, when there's way better stuff for free (like online radios like di.fm or trance[]control's stuff). Shoutcast forever! Legal, free, and way better.

    1. Re:There's so much free stuff online... by Fivo · · Score: 1

      ... that I'd never pay per song or per oldsk00l CDs. And yes, I *can* afford to buy stuff, I just want my money here in my bank account, thank you very much. Why waste my money on crap, when there's way better stuff for free (like online radios like di.fm or trance[]control's stuff). Shoutcast forever! Legal, free, and way better.

      This is where creating a library of music/media would have commercial value. I have tried to have 6+ terabyte storage arrays and managing them always gets crazy. If there was a commercial library covering a huge variety of artists with a cost similar to iTunes I would pay/subscribe. I have sat with my family and spent $100 a night on iTunes just collecting music for specific themes and mixes.

  8. Sure, Increase the Levy by ratboy666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am for it. Bump that levy. And make it apply to ALL digital content, and not just music.

    Given that I just got a cease-and-desist for sharing "Click" (my network was), and I don't want to have to bother with it -- I want movies treated the same as music is here in Canada.

    Unfortunately, I predict that the Candian Recording lobby will "convince" the government to eliminate the levy, and put in strict DMCA style regulations; you know, to conform to the American model.

    Maybe I am alone here, but, on reflection, I LIKE the levy. The idea of spending a bit more up front to keep the weasels away appeals to me. I don't really want the government trying to introduce "micro-payments" (I am sure they would REALLY fuck that up). I don't want an "on-line" levy -- because a lot of on-line activity is NOT for "copyright material". But media commonly used for that purpose? Sure, give them the levy.

    Just my opinion.

    --
    Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    1. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by teknomage1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I suppose you don't use cd's or dvds for archival data or just plain sneakernet style data transfer? The number of DVDs I've burned that included video data combined with the number of cds I've burned containing music is dwarfed by the amount of data cds I've burned by at least an order of magnitude. Why should I have to pay a levy on my data because YOU don't want to deal with the copyright storm troopers?

      --
      Stop intellectual property from infringing on me
    2. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by zcat_NZ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's exactly why he likes the levy. You're paying for his music.

      --
      455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    3. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not to mention unsigned acts that OWN the works they are burning to the media. Do they get their levy back?

    4. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      You legitimately support a tax to pay a for-profit corporation for their commercial product?

      What next? A tax to pay Nike for sneakers, with everyone getting 12 tax-funded pairs every year?

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    5. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by iamstretchypanda · · Score: 1

      I agree... GP's post is a little half baked. It seemed like a good idea at first, but if pirating was legal because of the levy, wouldn't everyone just pirate their music then? I sure as hell know I would. Then due to the increased piracy they would have to increase the levy that much more, etc etc... Music is a market where the consumer has a tough time winning in.

    6. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Doesn't it seem like having a levy to compensate for potential infringement is analogous to extortion.

      Imagine you go into a store to purchase a crowbar. The cashier pushes the buttons to tally the cost.

      1. Crowbar
      2. Sales Tax
      3. Crowbar Levy

      You ask what that crowbar levy item is. The clerk replies: "Oh, that extra 10% ensures that I don't start yelling thief at the top of my voice. You might be, you know. This is a crowbar."

    7. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nonono, the correct parallel would be Nike getting a shoe tax and you getting zip for it in return.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by mrbcs · · Score: 1
      Last time I bought blank cd's, they cost about $25 canadian for 50 discs. I bought 100 Dvd's for $17.

      I saw walls of blank dvd's, but had to really hunt for cd's.

      I don't think that their levy plan is working out.. Kinda pisses me off cause it's hard to burn a cd iso to a dvd.

      --
      I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
    9. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      When it comes to music, it's not "piracy" in Canada. We have the personal copy provision.

      Basically, you can go into a music store with a blank CD, COPY a CD, and take the copy home. Perfectly legal. As for "on-line" -- you are not allowed to post music to a "bulletin board", but P2P sharing is fine.

      I just want the same for Movies, Audio Books, and other works that can have an electronic distribution.

      Of course I *still* need to get the right to distribute a work, but people can personally copy a work.

      Why pay for pressed CDs? To get the liners, artwork, etc. More to the point, though, why does ANYONE in Canada buy from the Apple Music Store? That's got me puzzled...

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    10. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Beyond that, what happens when people stop burning audio CDs altogether? With the AppleTV, Windows MCE, Xbox 360, etc., how long before we stop using physical media for audio and video? I don't own a stereo or CD player. I have a computer hooked to speakers, and it plays MP3s. I have an iPod.

      So 5-10 years from now, will there be any physical medium specifically associated with audio/video? I have my doubts. And if not, what sense does it make to tax physical media? I don't think it's a good solution.

    11. Re:Sure, Increase the Levy by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Paying "the industry" "compensation" for a personal copying provision is seriously wrong-headed. It's based on an assumption that they innately deserve to get money - they don't. If they can make money by offering some product in the free market, that's great. If they can't, that sucks - but I don't get free money either.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
  9. Blank media taxing by ozphx · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While the existence of the Blank Media Taxing is mentioned in the article, it doesn't mention the slightly hilarious side effect of this tax - it makes it extremely difficult to go after copyright infringers because, after paying this tax, it would be covered by Canada's double-dipping laws ;)

    As an Aussie - I'm considering a contracting stint in Toronto. Those Canadians might have flappy heads and a penchant for saying "eh" a lot, but they do have one of the most liveable cities in the world, and more sensible copyright laws.

    Oh an a decent temperature - it was bloody 40 degrees C last weekend :(

    --
    3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    1. Re:Blank media taxing by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oh an a decent temperature - it was bloody 40 degrees C last weekend :(

            You'll trade that for -40 C? You aussies are nuts, eh?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Blank media taxing by ozphx · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh an a decent temperature - it was bloody 40 degrees C last weekend :(

      You'll trade that for -40 C? You aussies are nuts, eh?


      -40C plus (3 * pairs of thermal underwear) equals comfortable temperature.

      40C minus all clothes equals still hot and a public indecency charge :(
      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    3. Re:Blank media taxing by pyro_peter_911 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You'll trade that for -40 C? You aussies are nuts, eh?
      -40 C? I'm an American, you insensitive clod, what's that in degrees Fahrenheit?

      Peter

    4. Re:Blank media taxing by dosius · · Score: 1

      I'm in Niagara Falls just across the crick and we ain't seen -40 (that's the same in C and F mind you) all the time I lived here. I doubt Toronto's much cooler.

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    5. Re:Blank media taxing by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      In Calgary, when it warms up to minus 40 you break out the Molsons and have an outdoor barbie...

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    6. Re:Blank media taxing by dadragon · · Score: 1

      Where are mod points when you need them?

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    7. Re:Blank media taxing by mjwx · · Score: 0

      Oh an a decent temperature - it was bloody 40 degrees C last weekend :(

                  You'll trade that for -40 C? You aussies are nuts, eh?

      40 Degrees C in the shade for 5 months a year here in Perth. I'll trade.
      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:Blank media taxing by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

      About -40 F ....

      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    9. Re:Blank media taxing by Acer500 · · Score: 1

      LOL. I was in Toronto this winter, and I was amazed that the winter was actually WARMER than in my home country (Uruguay), and much nicer.

      Of course, the day after I left, temperatures dropped a lot so I guess I didn't see a "real" winter (but WTF, +13 C in December & January?).

      I agree with the Aussie, I hate extreme heat and it's much less bearable than cold (+38C over here a few days ago).

      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    10. Re:Blank media taxing by dueyfinster · · Score: 1

      I am a Physicist, and I use Kelvins you insensitive clod!

      --
      --- Duey Finster http://www.dueyfinster.com
    11. Re:Blank media taxing by ToriaUru · · Score: 1

      As a Canadian, I'll say "Welcome" with open arms, and if you ever see a -40C temp in Toronto let me know okay? 'Cause that'd be an all time low record for the great TO. They don't get so cold there, and they don't get too much snow either. Nice place to live. Yes, let's hope our DRM laws stay "sensible" and that the Honourable Bev Oda, Minister of Heritage gets it right. I've got my doubts about that, but we'll see. With Michael Geist in the same city, Ottawa, as her, we'd only hope for her and the advisors to LISTEN to what we, the people, want in our laws.

      --
      Toria
    12. Re:Blank media taxing by blank+axolotl · · Score: 1

      ... exactly -40 F (by definition)

  10. Lets not be hasty by BGatesFan · · Score: 0

    Let us not forget that in a recent article, we learned that DRM can add value to Music and other Media, by allowing you to only play media on your Windows-Vista-enable-Dell. Thus, don't simply write off DRM! You don't really think that Consumers want to be trusted?

  11. It's too late for most by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just heard an interview with Bob Ezrin. He just did a presentation at the East Coast Music Awards where he basically ripped the industry for being clueless. "It's like they're fighting the atom bomb with muskets and swords." He told the story about talking with an industry executive and asking him where his computer was. The guy said he didn't need one because his secretary opened his email. Ezrin's reaction was something like: "You're so dead." There has been serious carnage in the music industry and it isn't over yet.

    From the conference website: "The conference program will include a presentation from legendary producer Bob Ezrin. Having produced, mixed and played on legendary albums by Alice Cooper, Nine Inch Nails, Lou Reed, and KISS, Ezrin is perhaps best known for his production work on Pink Floyd's seminal The Wall. He is currently working with Universal Music Canada on talent development and the creation of a next generation music company."

  12. RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by viking2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know RIAA is enemy #1 here on /., but please realize that their entire business model has evaporated, and they are evaporating too. The treatment here on /. is like whipping a dying horse.

    Music and song were thriving for thousands of years before the recording industry.

    The only thing that brought the music industry to life was the ability to control distribution due to -cost of equipment- (recording studio, vinyl production, radio stations)

    with technology advances, this control has gone away, and their entire business model has evaporated.

    They really have no choice but to try to artificially create a business model based on DRM and legislation, but obviously, these measures are bound to fail.

    Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?

    1. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?"

      Sell music in an open format at a guaranteed quality level with access to their entire back catalogue at a reasonable price (i.e. not $1 a track)? In other words, give their customers what they want at a price they'll pay?

      Nah, that would be too much like hard work.

    2. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should we? And while we're at it, why can't we whip back? After the bullshit they've put us and our friends and family through, why should we just walk away? It's not good enough that their business model has evaporated, the coke-snorting abusive record label executives need to hold up cardboard signs saying "Will work for food" before justice will be satisfied.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    3. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by JPMaximilian · · Score: 1

      I know RIAA is enemy #1 here on /., but please realize that their entire business model has evaporated, and they are evaporating too. The treatment here on /. is like whipping a dying horse.
      I see the RIAA not as a dying horse. Horses are loyal and serve their owners. The RIAA is a Dragon that is hopefully dying, and I wouldn't whip it, I'd try to run it through.

      Maybe that's a little over dramatic.

      Until there is per song download service with DRM-Free mainstream Music (not just indy stuff), I'll probably keep complaining. Yeah, there is some good stuff on emusic, but often times I'll want to hear music I've heard in a movie, on TV, etc, and most of that music just isn't indy.
      --
      "I'll see you next time." - LeVar Burton
    4. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by ewhac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?

      Reputation management. Which is pretty much what they do today.

      They think their business is selling little round plastic discs. It's not. It's selecting and marketing artists, and there will always be a market for that.

      See, here's the thing: If we postulate that all music become free for the copying, how do you select what you want to hear? Consider the 500 channels of crap you already have on your cable TV feed -- an embarrassment of riches to be sure, but how much of it do you actually watch? How much can you watch? How do you decide what to watch? The explosion of available content is not going to slow down (absent a global disaster), and you're going to need intermediaries to help you sift through it all.

      Consider American Idol. Just one viewing of the early episodes of any given season will reveal to you the true depth of horrifyingly self-deluded suckage out there. And there, through it all, sits Simon Cowell, the show's creator. He sits through the crap so you don't have to. You may argue that what he lets through is still crap but, honestly, the stuff he's pruned out is much, much, much worse.

      This is the primary service the RIAA members still provide, and still can. They could position themselves as P2P search engines and filters, picking through songs available on the various P2P networks, and rating music based on their evaluations and your preferences. Note that they're not offering up the tunes themselves. The tunes they're listing are out there somewhere on the Net; Google would find them, too, if you typed in the right filename. All the label's search site would do is present what they warrant to be quality music that you're likely to enjoy. This would, of course, be a subscription service -- say USD$7.95/month. What you'd be paying for is not the music, but the recommendations.

      This would leave the RIAA members with the ability to present a "portal" they control, so promotion opportunities for new performers would still be possible. Streaming music would allow the label to feature "celebrity DJs" pushing a mix of their featured tunes -- just like the old payola days, only without the middlemen. And they could also earn money on the back-end by offering "promotional services" to new artists who want to boost their position in the search results. Each label could open multiple "fronts" on the Web, each purporting to specialize in particular music genres, or optimizing for particular aspects you feel are important (and billing for each separately).

      ...Basically, the philosophical antithesis of Google. Except that everyone would know that going in. You'd know your music filter service would be a heavily biased party, which is why you'd subscribe to two or three of them to try and even things out. This would probably be a really great idea right up to the point ClearChannel took over all of them.

      Schwab

    5. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by TropicalCoder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As the man said "Music and song were thriving for thousands of years before the recording industry." ...and now - it's totally corrupt. Just think about it - how the record industry created these "Big Stars" - just like Hollywood and the National League [of your favourite sport here]. What fools we have all been to elevate these people to the status of gods! Of course, we have been manipulated by the mightiest marketing machine history has never known, but still, we bear the responsibility for our own actions in the end.

      It's totally absurd that in this world where a quarter of the world's population suffers famine and we have so many other problems and priorities, that a few "stars" earn millions, and their promoters earn billions. And who are these people? For the most part, they are not musical geniuses; rather, they are icons of a corrupt pop-culture. They are stand-in symbols for whatever the current generation wants - anti-authority figures - 'sex, drugs, and Rock n' Roll'.

      Centuries ago, art and music served as a form of worship, reaching for the highest ideals and aspirations that Man could strive for. Bach wrote his Fugues. Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Shakespeare wrote his plays, Byron, Shelley, Keats wrote poetry, Handel wrote his choral works, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart composed their symphonies, the list goes on and on. Did any of these people, whose works have endured for centuries, ever earn millions of dollars? And did someone acting as their agent or producer earn many times more?

      What has this world come to? I just typed "Greatest artists of all time" into Google and what do I get? Michelangelo? Leonardo da Vinci? Rembrandt? No, though that is exactly what I was looking for. Get this: According to Google, it's 1. The Beatles, 2. The Rolling Stones, 3. Jimi Hendrix, 4. Led Zeppelin, 5. Bob Dylan, 6. James Brown, 7. David Bowie, 8. Elvis Presley, 9. The Who, 10. The Police, 11. Stevie Wonder, 12. Ray Charles, 13. The Beach Boys, 14. Marvin Gaye, 15. Eric Clapton. Isn't there something wrong here?

      Give me a break! "Greatest artists of all time" - how many of these people will even be remembered a century from now? I would only call one of these people an artist - Bob Dylan, and many of the rest are monster pop-icons created by the music industry back in the good ol' payola days. (Well, I have to admit, I too liked their music - most of them anyhow - what can I say? But that doesn't make them the "Greatest artists of all time". It's a matter of proportion, isn't it? What kind of a narrow view do we have, as reflected by Google?

      Now, please don't get me wrong. I love contemporary music as much as anybody. I probably don't know any more about Classical Music, Fine Art, or Great Literature than you, and there certainly were times in my life when I would have liked nothing better than sex, drugs, and Rock n' Roll if/when I could get it.

      My thesis is that record companies grew to be giant multinationals by catering to the worst within us, corrupting us with there greed, polluting our values, hijacking our culture for thier own monetary gain. Let them go back to Hell where they came from. It's time for this bullshit to end.

    6. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?

      Ummm. They could come up with a mineral based fuel oil for horseless carriages. Someone is bound to mass produce those suckers, and then everyone will be dependant on the stuff.

      No wait. The could get some addictive herb, pack it in paper tubes and sell them by the box to people so they can set the tubes on fire and inhale the smoke.

      Or even better, they could develop treatments for diseases that have side effects that need other treatments which they could also produce. If they get the medical associations on side with a few well placed kick backs, they'll make a packet!

      Or to put all that in a less sarcastic way, nobody needs large record companies except large record companies. So no, I cannot suggest a polite solution for them.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    7. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by shmlco · · Score: 0

      "Sell music in an open format at a guaranteed quality level with access to their entire back catalogue at a reasonable price (i.e. not $1 a track)?"

      I was with you right up until the end, as I think a buck is reasonable, especially as more bands go independent or sign with indie-labels and the majority of the money starts going back back to the people who make it.

      Your last point was telling, however. Let Apple tell us tomorrow that all music will be DRM-free and someone will complain that $1 isn't "reasonable". Let them drop the price to .50 or .25, and plenty of others will crawl out of the cracks and complain (loudly) that those prices aren't "reasonable" to them either.

      And as such, all of those people who used DRM as an excuse before will now switch to price or format or bit-rate as a rationalization for continuing to pirate their music. Just watch.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    8. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by AusIV · · Score: 1

      Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?

      Sure, provide a higher quality product.

      For starters, let me make one thing clear: I am not a pirate. I don't try and get a free ride on music and movies, and almost all of my software is Open Source.

      Let's ignore pricing for a minute. On iTunes, I can get a song encoded in AAC audio at a bitrate of 128 kbps, and I can only play it on up to 5 computers and iPods, or burn it to a CD. Again, I'm not a pirate, but I've been under the impression that on a p2p network, if I'm willing to do some looking around, I can get the same song encoded with the codec of my choice at the bitrate of my choice, I can play it on every capable device that I own. The pirates offer a better product. Most of my friends would be willing to pay at least $.99 a song if it didn't have DRM and was encoded at a higher bitrate than iTunes, but they don't get that option - it's either accept the DRM, or pirate.

      CD's are an option, but they're note as simple. Generally, I'm in the mood to buy music when I have a specific song stuck in my head and I want to buy it and listen to it. I'm not going to drive to the nearest music store and hope they happen to have the CD I want in stock. Thus online availability becomes part of the quality measure.

      Movies are pretty much the same story. Movies have been available on p2p networks for a long time, but they've only been appearing on legitimate download services in the past year or so. p2p networks offer ripped DVDs you can burn to DVD or watch on any computer. The download services are generally lower quality than DVDs just available for Windows and don't allow you to burn to DVD, so you're stuck watching your media on a computer monitor, unless you have a media-pc connected to your entertainment system. DVDs are also fairly limited, as you can't (legally) copy them to your hard drive, and you can't even play them on your computer if your OS of choice is Linux (though this looks like it may change soon).

      As things are right now, piracy provides the best product. If the *IAA wants to compete, they'd do well to provide a product at least equivalent to what the pirates are providing. They might be surprised what people will pay for.

    9. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 2, Funny

      Someone should introduce a bill revoking their corporate charters. Right now they are just delaying the inevitable. Call it the "Mercy to Recording Companies Act of 2007".

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    10. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by tooyoung · · Score: 1

      This is the primary service the RIAA members still provide, and still can. They could position themselves as P2P search engines and filters, picking through songs available on the various P2P networks, and rating music based on their evaluations and your preferences. Note that they're not offering up the tunes themselves. The tunes they're listing are out there somewhere on the Net; Google would find them, too, if you typed in the right filename. All the label's search site would do is present what they warrant to be quality music that you're likely to enjoy. This would, of course, be a subscription service -- say USD$7.95/month. What you'd be paying for is not the music, but the recommendations.
      So, then would it become illegal to tell your friend about a band that you learned about through the RIAA's website? Could I legally post a list of my favorite bands, even if that list just happened to coincide heavily with the RIAA's?
    11. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by ewhac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, then would it become illegal to tell your friend about a band that you learned about through the RIAA's website?

      No; don't be silly. You can tell other people about facts you got out of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. This isn't substantially different.

      Could I legally post a list of my favorite bands, even if that list just happened to coincide heavily with the RIAA's?

      You're free to post recommendations of as many artists and tunes as you want. What you can't do is wholesale copy the recommendation database, or you run afoul of compilation copyrights. And, depending on how you architect the search and filter engines, copying the "database" may be impossible, anyway. The "database" is the sum total of all tunes on all the P2P networks. The label's site just applies their own sorting algorithm to the data. That algorithm remains on their servers, a trade secret.

      As for hosting your own site, you're perfectly welcome to do so. But the labels will start out with more capital and market clout than you. They can buy more bandwidth and more server iron, thereby giving themselves an advantage. This is exactly how they like things, and such an arrangement will likely make them quite happy. And if you happen to tune in to the zeitgeist rather well and garner a sizable following of your own, don't be surprised if the labels come knocking to offer you a stack of cash and merge your Web property into theirs.

      Schwab

    12. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with your "remember next century" theory but a lot of those groups actually played real instruments (and/or at least used their real voice) and wrote music themselves. I think payola was not a big factor until consolidation of radio stations which really started in the 80-90's right?

      I think a lot of people should at least remember Pink Floyd next century

    13. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      Centuries ago, art and music served as a form of worship, reaching for the highest ideals and aspirations that Man could strive for. Bach wrote his Fugues. Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Shakespeare wrote his plays, Byron, Shelley, Keats wrote poetry, Handel wrote his choral works, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart composed their symphonies, the list goes on and on. Did any of these people, whose works have endured for centuries, ever earn millions of dollars? And did someone acting as their agent or producer earn many times more? Hell yes. Michaelangelo was such a big shot that the Pope himself- one of the most influencial people of the time, was willing to deal with his bullshit. Shakespeare, Mozart... These were not poor men. And yes, there were agents and producers in those times as well. What has this world come to? I just typed "Greatest artists of all time" into Google and what do I get? Michelangelo? Leonardo da Vinci? Rembrandt? No, though that is exactly what I was looking for. Get this: According to Google, it's 1. The Beatles, 2. The Rolling Stones, 3. Jimi Hendrix, 4. Led Zeppelin, 5. Bob Dylan, 6. James Brown, 7. David Bowie, 8. Elvis Presley, 9. The Who, 10. The Police, 11. Stevie Wonder, 12. Ray Charles, 13. The Beach Boys, 14. Marvin Gaye, 15. Eric Clapton. Isn't there something wrong here? I graduated with a degree in art (not that that made me an expert), and I would still argue that the beatles, the Stones, Hendrix, Zeppelin, Dylan and the who all belong in that list. Seriously. I'd probably list my top 10 artists of all time as follows:

      Da Vinci, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Page, Monet, Picasso, Dali, Bob Marley, The Stones, Bonaparte, Jimi Hendrix.

      That's off the top of my head. I'd probably change it up quite a bit (and make it a top 500 list) if I were doing this seriously. I honestly believe that the 60s were to music what the renaissance was to art. At any rate... I'm way off topic. :)

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    14. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Hucko · · Score: 1

      I know RIAA is enemy #1 here on /., but please realize that t...
      Number 2. Microsoft, friend, Microsoft.
      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    15. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      their entire business model has evaporated, and they are evaporating too. The treatment here on /. is like whipping a dying horse.
      More like a horse that just found out it's contracted a terminal illness, so it's gone crazy and is stampeding through the streets.

      Someone get the tranquilizers...
    16. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Hawthorne01 · · Score: 1

      Daymn.

      I mean, seriously, *Damn*.

      That's a helluvan idea. Well-played, sir, well played.

      --
      "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    17. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by mugnyte · · Score: 1

      Sure. Here's my advice: Get Out of The Fucking Way!

        Great music is being made by innovative people all the time, distributed on channels that get relatively no market, listened to by people that have money and are willing to pay - but not enough people just yet.

        Let radio be pay-per-month - there's a market. Let giant shows in packed stadiums sell tickets for $300 (+$25 per ticket "handling") - there's a market. Let radio continue to plug new artists (without payola!) by having producers screen music and create a "show". All could continue to be commercials markets for music.

        But when I support a band, buy their disc at a local show, come home and transfer it everywhere INCLUDING my friend's devices (in exchange for some of his songs) - this is the way of the world and nothing can really stop it.

        I'm a believer in creating a market that wants to consume your content, not digging into the crevices for micropayments. They could charge per person listening, per public playing, per machine holding the content, per episode, but enough already. It's art, meant to be created, enjoyed and rewarded - all are a sloppy process.

        The market should simply facilitate ways for people to meet the artists, get to know them, and help them stay inspired. Alas, that machine already exists too - the local paper has a lot of band reviews, and there's more than enough sites. Labels already pimp their artists. So what should the RIAA do? Become a for-hire legal service for ensuring commercial uses of content are duly compensated to license holders. But stat OUT of the private use arena - it's just a losing battle.

    18. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Actually, they're enemy #3, after Microsoft and Sony respectively. :P

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    19. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by philipgar · · Score: 1

      if you really think payola wasn't a big factor until the consolidation of radio stations occurred, than I have a bridge I want to sell you. Seriously, the music industry has always been a self-serving hit producing machine. It's possible in the past that good artists actually manage to be popular whereas today you don't think so. But today there are still good popular artists. For every great classic rock band, their are a ton that just didn't make the cut.

      There's a great interview with Alex Chilton of big star and box tops fan on Big Star's live album. The interviewer asks Alex "you spent some time about 6-7 years ago with a band when you were 16 years old with a band the box tops, what were those days like?" Alex responds "pretty scummy, well actually about as scummy as it is now."

      Granted this interview was from the 70's, but it's just amusing to see how people react to such stuff. If anything today might be better for the industry, as it's easier to go it on your own, and the major labels have less control than they had. Sure the biggest artists are usually puppets controlled by the industry, but is it really so different? Considering the volumes of crap that were pushed in the 60s, and the 70s and the 80s and the 90s, and the 00s, I don't really know if today is any different. It's just we look back on the past and only see the artists that stood the test of time.

      Phil

    20. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by HuDongQing · · Score: 1

      The label would only have to make its recommendations personable, ala Amazon.com. Each artist I express interest in would influence future recomendations from the label. And then what would be the point of sharing lists? Who would want someone elses recommendations? I would want recommendations tailored to my music taste, not yours. Therefore, I would pay for it.

    21. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sorry, but they are not dead enough yet. I don't really care whether they come up with a better business model; I'm going to keep whipping them until they do or they disappear.

    22. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Certainly. Shift the focus.

      Their distribution ways are outdated. Granted. Nothing's easier today than distribution data, and content is nothing but data. And yes, even everyone can get "exposure". But have you ever tried?

      Their place is in marketing and representation. They have the connections to TV networks, studios, movie makers, you name it. They have all the contacts to make a band soar. They know how to create a hype, they know how to plan tours, their main asset, even though they don't want to realize it, is their knowledge. Of people and of procedures.

      As a studio, I'd turn the table around. Instead of signing bands, I'd have them come to me and hire me. You want to be famous, we can guarantee you that you'll be. You'll be on every TV network on this planet, your sound will be played on every radio station.

      This would, of course, first of all require them to take bands serious instead of seeing them as huge cash cows. And that's where the problem lies.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    23. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      $1 would be okay, but here in the UK it's closer to $1.50, which is not. At $1/track (no DRM), it's something I'd use occasionally (I don't tend to buy much music; I think I bought four albums in total last year). Bring it down to 50, and it becomes an impulse purchase. Bring it down to 5-10/track, and I'd buy an album just to see if I liked the band, and their entire back catalogue if I did.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    24. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thesis is that record companies grew to be giant multinationals by...

      Exploiting the coercive power of government.

      Does the word "corporatism" ring a bell with you? That's when business and government join forces to create stuff that benefits them both, at the necessary expense of the subject class (that's you) which pays in liberty as well as dollars. For example, laws which create a brand new "market" out of thin air and guarantee them business where it wouldn't be possible in the absence of coercion (government).

      The bottom line is that none of it would have been possible without government and it's unique ability to employ coercion as its means. The existence of power is THE critical component of this story.

    25. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by louisadkins · · Score: 1

      "Can anyone here at /. come up with a different solution for them?"
      How about:
      "Why, yes, I would like fries with that! And make it a Large Combo, please!"

    26. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "Just think about it - how the record industry created these "Big Stars" - just like Hollywood and the National League [of your favourite sport here]"

      This isn't something the modern world invented. The ancient Greeks had competitions for musicians and poets that resulted in great renown and wealth for for the winners. There is a life-size Roman statue of an aulos player, and one had to be pretty important to get a statue made; and both Greek and Roman sportsmen became notable celebrities, with gladiators especially being able to gain empire-wide fame, and earn _vast_ wealth. There is for example a documented account of a renowned gladiator who turned down six large farms with a total of 250,000 slaves on them plus 4 million sesterces for a single performance because it was "a paltry offer".

      "Centuries ago, art and music served as a form of worship, reaching for the highest ideals and aspirations that Man could strive for."

      Balderdash. Most art and music was produced for wealthy sponsors, and reflected what they wanted. Today's equivalent would be a commission to produce music or artwork for movies, TV series, video games, etc.

      "Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel"

      Because the Pope paid him to do it. If the Pope had asked him to cover the ceiling with porn, he would have done so, because artists who ate had learned to do what the guy with the money said.

      "Shakespeare wrote his plays"

      Shakespeare was part of a theatre company who performed for money (The Chamberlain's Men, later The King's men), so his plays were written to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, hence the presence of jokes and "comic relief" characters in so many of them. They were thus as much of an exercise in pure commercialism as movies such as "Casablanca" or "Gone With The Wind", which are now lauded as a classic despite having been made as vehicles for earning lots of money.

      "Byron, Shelley, Keats wrote poetry"

      Lord Byron came from an extremely privileged background, and lived a life that wouldn't be out of place for any modern celebrity with a "bad boy" image (he claimed to have slept with over 250 women in a single year, appears to have liked men and boys too, and lived in extravagant luxury); Shelley was originally supported by his parents, who were minor nobility, and later by an inheritance after his grandfather died, plus some income from Byron (Mary, his live-in lover and later wife had a bastard child by Byron, which he supported). The only one of modest background was Keats, who was notably poor throughout his life.

      "Handel wrote his choral works"

      Handel's a particularly bad example to cite, because he was an international "star" during his life, had various royal patrons in a number of countries, and his works were so popular that there was standing-room only when some of them were performed (he also had an appetite for the good life, and squandered what were at the time vast amounts of money on it, thus rendering him near broke on several occasions).

      "Beethoven"

      Again a star during his life with various wealthy patrons who became life-long friends. At a time when there was no form of instant communication, an estimated 30,000 people attended his funeral, including a number of celebrities -- Schubert for example was one of his pall-bearers, Franz Grillparzer (reckoned to be one of the greatest German writers of the period) wrote a special funeral prayer, and this was read by the renowned actor Heinrich Anschütz.

      "Vivaldi"

      A priest who enjoyed a fair level of celebrity during his early life, but that diminished in later years, and many of his works are now lost due to a century of complete disinterest which would likely have continued until the present day if it weren't for the fact that Bach was influenced by him, and arranged several of his concertos for keyboard.

      "Mozart"

      A star from an early age who went on several European tours and lived a lavish life-style that sometimes put him into deb

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    27. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      Lovely idea, but...

      The only income seems to be from the website subscriptions. OK. One guy takes out a subscription to EMIArtistSearch.com - he's a DJ in a popular club. He finds out what's new and what's cool. Downloads the files. Plays them that night. Everyone at the club hears the new tunes there. They go to Google and get the same files, this time for free.

      The only reason I've got to subscribe to the website is if it's the only channel by which the company are publicising the band. It won't be. There'll be radio play, festival appearances, club nights, word of mouth.

      What I'd do is distribute only the singles free. The singles chart is a write-off now anyway, nobody cares about it, and albums are bigger money. Take the porn site approach. Distribute the singles free on your high-capacity, high-reliability website, and people might well be persuaded to fork over some modest monthly subscription for access to the rest of the album - even if they could still get it via P2P, they'll pay for the convenience.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    28. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by rubberglove · · Score: 1
      How about something like this:
      • be talented
      • practice
      • write and perform good music
      • scrape together enough to record a first album, or make a deal with a good independent
      • tour, play lots and lots of shows
      • apply for grants, especially if you are Canadian
      • use your album mostly as a promotional tool to get contacts and a larger audience at your many, many shows
      • sell your album and other merchandise at shows
      • if/when you become successful enough that managing yourself is too much, sign with an independent label (if you haven't already)who is willing to invest their time and energy to do that for you, sharing a fair cut, and SIGNING A CONTRACT.
      • record another album
      • repeat. more tours, more shows
      • try to get publishing contracts for soundtracks, commercials, etc...which pay the bills without costing you too much integrity.
      • don't expect limos, diamond-studded chalices full of cristal, private jets or piles of drugs (well maybe the drugs) - but you can certainly make a decent living, doing something you enjoy. A decent cut of 50,000 albums sold is far better than a minuscule microslice of 1,000,000.


      Oh wait, that doesn't include much room for the 'major labels' to lend artists wads of cash, waste it on kickbacks and useless marketing, then drop them when they fail to 'explode', while sitting on the master recordings. Hmmm.
    29. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent comment.

      I'd also like to point out that many of their greatest works could not have existed without that sponsorship.
      There's no point in writing music for an orchestra + full choir if you can't afford to get them to play it.

      Of course nowadays people expect you to do it on a budget and recreate musicians out of samples, and then they wonder why music has become so soulless and uninvolving.

    30. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Zenaku · · Score: 1

      I'm a dragon, you insensitive clod!

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    31. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by PureApple · · Score: 1

      Centuries ago, art and music served as a form of worship, reaching for the highest ideals and aspirations that Man could strive for. Bach wrote his Fugues. Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Shakespeare wrote his plays, Byron, Shelley, Keats wrote poetry, Handel wrote his choral works, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart composed their symphonies, the list goes on and on.

      Use of the word 'Man' as reference to humankind excludes women, and doesn't do your argument justice. Similarly, I believe some non-european/ non-male artists may also exist.

      Welcome to the 21st century, enjoy your stay.

    32. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      They could position themselves as P2P search engines and filters, picking through songs available on the various P2P networks, and rating music based on their evaluations and your preferences. Note that they're not offering up the tunes themselves. The tunes they're listing are out there somewhere on the Net; Google would find them, too, if you typed in the right filename. All the label's search site would do is present what they warrant to be quality music that you're likely to enjoy. This would, of course, be a subscription service -- say USD$7.95/month. What you'd be paying for is not the music, but the recommendations.

      *Sigh* I miss audiogalaxy. In hindsight, I would have gladly paid for that service (and please do not mention its hopelessly broken child, Rhapsody).

      --
      -
    33. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Steve001 · · Score: 1

      TropicalCoder wrote as part of a post:

      What has this world come to? I just typed "Greatest artists of all time" into Google and what do I get? Michelangelo? Leonardo da Vinci? Rembrandt? No, though that is exactly what I was looking for. Get this: According to Google, it's 1. The Beatles, 2. The Rolling Stones, 3. Jimi Hendrix, 4. Led Zeppelin, 5. Bob Dylan, 6. James Brown, 7. David Bowie, 8. Elvis Presley, 9. The Who, 10. The Police, 11. Stevie Wonder, 12. Ray Charles, 13. The Beach Boys, 14. Marvin Gaye, 15. Eric Clapton. Isn't there something wrong here?

      Give me a break! "Greatest artists of all time" - how many of these people will even be remembered a century from now? I would only call one of these people an artist - Bob Dylan, and many of the rest are monster pop-icons created by the music industry back in the good ol' payola days. (Well, I have to admit, I too liked their music - most of them anyhow - what can I say? But that doesn't make them the "Greatest artists of all time". It's a matter of proportion, isn't it? What kind of a narrow view do we have, as reflected by Google?

      I think the reason that artists like DaVinci, Shakespeare, and Bach have been remembered is not just that they produced great art, but what they produced has been preserved. We can see what DaVinci, himself, painted. With Bach, although we don't have any of the original performances recorded, we do have his work preserved in written form.

      With the above listed musical artists, I think they will be remembered for centuries for the same reason: we now have the ability to preserve actual performances instead of just hearing about great performances. Centuries from now we won't have to wonder what The Beatles were like, we can hear what they were like, and also see their performances. From a time before the advent of music recording (say 1850), how many musical performers are remembered?

      Its not just the biggest artists that are preserved, but also the lesser-known artists. For example, how many people are familiar with the following songs (from more than 20 years ago)?

      • Alone Again (Naturally) by Gilbert O'Sullivan
      • You Light Up My Life by Debby Boone
      • Goodbye Cruel World by James Darren
      • Disco Duck by Rick Dees and His Cast Of Idiots

      The point of the above list is that anyone who wants to can easily access the above songs and hear exactly what they sound like. What someone thinks about a song can be based on the song itself, not just what people have heard about the song.

    34. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by woadlined · · Score: 1

      "What you'd be paying for is not the music, but the recommendations."

      Good idea, but in practice, I never need recommendations of music from the recording industry.

      Have a look at digg or other social networking sites. "Hot" stuff doesn't come from one guy's sifting process, it comes from a much broader user base. If you're going to do "recommending" online, then you need to do it freely, and flexibly.

      RIAA "recommending" would be tantamount to Payola. I'd much rather check out a band that a friend recommended, or that a specific open user community recommended, than one that the RIAA groomed, programmed, and deployed.

      Heck, let the RIAA recommend crap to consumers. Just don't let them aspire to nailing down the whole medium to their own liking. It has never worked, and it never will.

    35. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by shmlco · · Score: 1

      You can't take it down to 5/10/25/50 cents w/o going to a paid-up-front account model like Zune uses, as credit card transaction fees eat up too much of the net otherwise.

      I can also see how you'd like 10 cents, and "if so", how you'd buy the entire album, but from their side it doesn't make a lot of sense. If you'd buy a song for a buck occasionally one way, and an entire album for 10 cents a song (another buck), it doesn't seem like they're going to be making any additional money off of you, while giving you more content in exchange and eating up more bandwidth as a consequence.

      Keeping my own iTMS purchases in mind, I'm not sure that if, say, they dropped the price to a quarter I'd buy enough additional music to compensate for the lost revenue. Heck, I already have a hard enough time finding stuff I like.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    36. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      If you'd buy a song for a buck occasionally one way, and an entire album for 10 cents a song (another buck), it doesn't seem like they're going to be making any additional money off of you If tracks cost 10, then I would buy an album to see if I liked an artist. If tracks cost $1, then I will not buy a track for the same purpose. Instead, I will just forget about the artist until the next time someone mentions them (at which point I will think 'I wonder if they are any good, and then promptly forget about them again'). The choice is not between selling me an album at $1 or a track at $1, the choice is between frequently selling me albums at $1, and entire collections at $1 times the number of albums the artist has released, or selling me albums at $10 very occasionally. I don't listen to the radio, and I don't use P2P, so at the moment I have very few ways of discovering new music. If I could buy an album for $1, then it would be cheap enough to do so and not care much if I didn't like the music. If I really liked an artist, I would probably set up some kind of RSS reader-like client to automatically buy any new material they release.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    37. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by tim447 · · Score: 1

      Dylan? Seriously? Come on now - I'm sorry, and this might make me unpopular, but the man was a whiner with a horribly annoying voice. I don't care what story he was telling. That, of course, is just my option, but regardless - to actually rank him with Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Byron, Shelley, Keats, Handel, Beethoven, Vivaldi, and Mozart is just your saying you really enjoyed one particular artist and its him. Does "The Times They Are A-Changin'" really belong in the same list as the Sistine Chapel?

    38. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What youve said here inspired me to go look up "star search" on the wiki (lets face it, american idol is just next-gen star search) to see how many contestants later went on to showbiz.

      check this out...

              * Alanis Morissette
              * Aaliyah, 1990, singer
              * Christina Aguilera, 1990, singer
              * Tatyana Ali
              * James Bonamy
              * Tom Burns, Vocalist of the Year 1993
              * Girl's Tyme, later changed to Destiny's Child rappers
              * Drew Carey
              * Billy Dean
              * Diana Degarmo of American Idol Fame
              * Charles Divins
              * Linda Eder
              * Tiffany Evans
              * Elisa Fiorillo
              * Brad Garrett
              * Dana Gould, 1987
              * Sam Harris
              * Beth Hart
              * Jessica Simpson
              * Ty Herndon
              * Kent James, 1993 (as part of the music group "Kent & The Kommotion")
              * Kevin James
              * Bill Kaulitz, 2003, singer
              * Coors Light Twins (Diane Klimaszewski & Elaine Klimaszewski), 1987, teen dancers
              * Martin Lawrence, 2003
              * Nick Lazzarini, 2003 (as part of the dance group "Hot Under the Collar")
              * Julie McCullough, 1987, Spokesmodel
              * Carlos Mencia, 1991, Comedy
              * Vic Mignogna, 1993
              * Dennis Miller
              * Vickie Natale, 2003
              * Rosie O'Donnell
              * Q'Orianka Kilcher
              * Rashaan Patterson
              * Joey Pearson
              * Alisan Porter
              * LeAnn Rimes
              * Ray Romano
              * Tracey Ross
              * J.D. Roth
              * Sawyer Brown
              * Sinbad
              * David Slater
              * Britney Spears, 1992, singer
              * Marc Summers
              * Eboni, 1995, Vocal Group/Band champion
              * Justin Timberlake
              * Jessica Tivens, 1988, singer
              * Lisa Tucker
              * Usher
              * Phil Vassar, 1987, singer finalist
              * Countess Vaughn
              * Dave Chappelle
              * Bianca Ryan, 2006, America's Got Talent Winner
              * Anna Maria Perez de Tagle
              * Nadia Turner, 2005, American Idol Finalist
              * Rissi Palmer
              * Karina Pasian
              * Jessica Sierra 2005, American Idol Finalist
              * Jordis Unga, 2005, Rock Star: INXS Finalist

      Sweet zombie jesus, theres some big names in there!

    39. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by ewhac · · Score: 1

      OK. One guy takes out a subscription to EMIArtistSearch.com - he's a DJ in a popular club. He finds out what's new and what's cool. Downloads the files. Plays them that night. Everyone at the club hears the new tunes there. They go to Google and get the same files, this time for free.

      Statistically insignificant. The number of people who go to a given club over a month is easily dwarfed by the number of people visiting the site. The site's cheaper than a club visit, too, and no tobacco smoke. And remember, you're not selling copies of or access to the music, you're selling access to your recommendations -- kinda like FilePlanet used to do in their early days when they only indexed stuff and thunked all the actual downloads over to CDRom.com. You may miss out on recording the click that downloaded the song, but oh well.

      Also, any DJ who did that would be risking their own reputation. If it ever became revealed that his mixes were not his own, but the selections of UniverSony, he would either be branded a RIAA schill or a charlatan, and his popularity would fall.

      Schwab

    40. Re:RIAA's entire business model has evaporated by Raenex · · Score: 1

      What you can't do is wholesale copy the recommendation database, or you run afoul of compilation copyrights.

      And downloading copyrighted music isn't already illegal? Guess what, people don't care.

      Also, the masses aren't going to pay $8 a month for some company's recommendation. This is wishful thinking, not economic reality. In reality, the publishers are in the business of selling music (whether it's shiny plastic discs, music downloads, or radio royalties). That is how they can afford to market their artists. Take away the selling, and the business goes away. The only alternative I can think of is advertising like Google does. Still, I'm skeptical.

  13. Re: Toronto by tomhudson · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    "As an Aussie - I'm considering a contracting stint in Toronto. Those Canadians might have flappy heads and a penchant for saying "eh" a lot, but they do have one of the most liveable cities in the world, and more sensible copyright laws."

    Toronto?!? Come on - everyone knows Montreal's got better food, better public transit, better parties, and cheaper housing.

  14. Dead Restriction Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DRM is an attempt by the Recording and other Media industries to revive a Medieval printing press publishing control Model, where the powerful "Stationers" could control government to create laws to protect the monopoly for publishing works of the often Dead authors.

    Powerful organizations/companies would like to put the Internet back in the bottle and rewind to the printing press model, where there is a middle man available to control the use and sale of information.

    1. Re:Dead Restriction Model by Technician · · Score: 1

      DRM is an attempt by the Recording and other Media industries to revive a Medieval printing press publishing control Model, where the powerful "Stationers" could control government to create laws to protect the monopoly for publishing works of the often Dead authors.


      Not quite right. DRM is an attempt at preventing someone in a garage with a printing press from distributing the NY times for free to the world.

      DRM in no way prevents you from creating your own CD from scratch an self publishing. Just don't copy your content directly from someone else.

      (No I am not pro-DRM. I am however anti-piracy I would like my purchased media to 1 work and be of 2 high quality at 3 a reasonable price. DRM ensures 3 of 3 requirements have serious problems.)

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  15. It's a chaning business model by big4ared · · Score: 1

    The strategey is pretty interesting. Essentially, the old business model with DRM specifies that when you are buying a song, you are paying for access to listening to that song. With the new DRM-free model, the RIAA is acknowledging that anyone can steal music online. What you are fundamentally paying for is the convenience of not having to go through the hassle of finding a torrent online/waiting for it to come on the radio/ripping it from a friend's CD.

  16. havent RTFA, but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one, don't quite understand how a non-DRM business policy would actually work. If I understand the non-DRM movement, it is desired that music be sold in a format that is non-restricting and usable in many places(most likely mp3).

    But will this new strategy really keep piracy at low levels? If I know that one of my friends has a hot new track that he downloaded from a site that lets the users download MP3s, it would seem stupid(in my opinion) for someone to fork over a dollar for the track. If I can get a good from free(from the friend), why in the world would I pay for it? Would it not become even easier to share copyrighted content?

    What will keep users not to share files? Morals? Do music companies expect some voice in my head to go "STOP, THAT'S STEALING" before I accept a file transfer from my friend? For some reason, I don't see that happening, for me and many, many music lovers.

    Being a consumer, I would love to have non-DRM'ed music, but I don't see how it would be "better" for companies. I would imagine a world with "light" restrictive measures(but yes, I understand, drawing the line would be difficult for what is legal/illegal) would be best.

    1. Re:havent RTFA, but.. by kimvette · · Score: 1

      It'll be exactly the same as the cassette and CD era. Those who will buy in the first place will buy. Those who do not will dub from CD to CD or tape to tape or any combination thereof. It seems to me that since the compact cassette came along the music industry has been surviving just fine. It didn't begin to falter until they started treating customers like criminals, creating a backlash with individuals boycotting them or simply turning to alternate sources (allofmp3.com) for their music "needs"

      Me? I buy CDs from only a handful of acts now. I choose to avoid exposure to new music so I am not tempted to acquire new material (legitimately or otherwise) and instead spend my entertainment dollars on DVDs. I was going to cut back spending on DVDs this month but so far I've bought 22 DVDs and the month is not over yet.

      Fuck you, RIAA/RCIA. By threatening to file suit if I go to P2P networks to try before I buy, I buy DVDs instead. I get more value for my money that way ANYHOW.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    2. Re:havent RTFA, but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems to me that since the compact cassette came along the music industry has been surviving just fine.
      To that I would argue with mp3s and the internet, it's easier than ever to spread files. I can upload a 4mb music file in a little bit under a minute and a half to anyone, anywhere(even to many other people at the same time). With the tapes, there were still inconveniences that will make it more difficult, but not impossible.

      So as content can be spread in much, much easier ways, I would see that piracy would increase as well.
    3. Re:havent RTFA, but.. by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But will this new strategy really keep piracy at low levels? If I know that one of my friends has a hot new track that he downloaded from a site that lets the users download MP3s, it would seem stupid(in my opinion) for someone to fork over a dollar for the track. If I can get a good from free(from the friend), why in the world would I pay for it?

      Convenience.

      We (at least in the first world) are living in an age of unprecented personal wealth and great laziness. People are lining up to throw away their disposable incomes on things like mobile phone ringtones, bottled water and therapists. Of course they'll be happy to spend money to buy songs online if it's quicker, easier and safer than pirating them.

    4. Re:havent RTFA, but.. by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Okay I would pay for a track I liked if I didn't break copyright by doing so, even if I could copy it with no obvious consequences. Though the price would need to be low as reproduction is minimal for the publishers.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    5. Re:havent RTFA, but.. by Technician · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But will this new strategy really keep piracy at low levels? If I know that one of my friends has a hot new track that he downloaded from a site that lets the users download MP3s, it would seem stupid(in my opinion) for someone to fork over a dollar for the track. If I can get a good from free(from the friend), why in the world would I pay for it? Would it not become even easier to share copyrighted content?

      Rewind back to the 1970's with LP sales and easy access to cassette tape recoders. Fast forward to the 1980's and Cable TV and VHS and Betamax VCR's. Why would anybody subscribe to cable TV when someone gets something off HBO and passes the tape arround. Fast forward to today with portable MP3 recorders and Sirrus radio. How can they sell subscriptions?

      New content without DRM in a reasonable format at a reasonable price is more convienent. Only overpriced content gets pirated in mass. Most people buy their own DVD's instead of copy them on VHS or DIVX. Most people who listen to subscription radio do so with their own subscription. Most people who watch pay tv have their own subscription instead of passing along the latest HVS tape.

      But will this new strategy really keep piracy at low levels? Good question. How does Blockbuster and Hollywood video manage when people can just go online and download it for free? Good price, convience, and high quality....

      DRM-free content with the same parameters will sell. Good price, Convience, and High Quality.. Don't forget it. It's called Value Someday, the RIAA will get it.... Maybe.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  17. Comical by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's truly comical to see how completely music company executives ignore reality. Watch MTV for an hour or two, and it quickly becomes apparent that music simply doesn't matter much to its primary target demographic. Based on how little air time it now gets, sales should be down much further than they are. Somehow the executives blithely ignore this, however, and blame their troubles entirely on file sharing, p2p, and so on.

    They need to concentrate on finding some real talent. Right now they seem to concentrate primarily on finding second-rate wannabe-models, and then try to cover their complete lack of talent with lousy recording, lots of digital processing and when that doesn't work, attempt to distract from the mediocrity with synchronized dancing.

    Once they've found some talent, they need to do a good (not over-produced) job of recording them, and sell the recording at a reasonably fair price. Here again, they've fallen down badly -- at one time, the amount of work and machinery raised enough barrier to entry that prices are recordings were at least partially justified. That's just no longer the case. Photocopiers haven't hurt the book market noticeably, simply because most people prefer a nicely printed and bound book to a photocopy, and a photocopy generally doesn't save much (if any) money anyway. The recording labels don't want to compete similarly because it would cut their profit margins -- but it's the only route that has any chance of being truly viable in the long term.

    The fact is, if you want to sell something, you have to start by providing something that people actually want. Then you have to set a price that people will accept. These are simple facts the record companies have to face. Until they do, neither DRM nor lawsuits will improve their situation -- or even noticeably slow the rate at which it deteriorates.

    --
    The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    1. Re:Comical by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The shift in MTV is not (only) due to music becoming unpopular. Not even only that current music sucks worse than a clogged hoover. It's the 'net.

      With YouTube at your fingertips, do you sit down in front of MTV hoping that "your" video eventually comes, with ads flooding you every 5 minutes?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. Two industries by trotter777055 · · Score: 1

    There are two industries here 1) artists/directors/moviemakers/bands/actors etc. who make the works we admire. 2) then there are distributors/publishers etc who have gotten the works of group 1 to us. Group 2 is no longer profitable/necessary in its present form. The internet drops the cost of distribution Computers make studios much less expensive digital reproduction makes copies perfect As I see it group 2 failed to produce sufficent income to support itself. Some I know call it picking bad artists / scripts / etc. It blamed the media it had comitted the industry to - digital. Rather than take the blame for the artistic quality they were producing they blamed copying. They said they were losing billions in China - when did they MAKE billions in China. But the politicians followed the lead of the loudest wallets and lawyers designed a system. Unfortunately engineers had to build it. I think better people are trying to take it apart. Then there are people like me who have absolutly no intention fo letting Sony or anyone else F**K up my computers to better their pocketbook. One warning was quite enough for me.

    1. Re:Two industries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the brave new world where everyone freely and legally swaps music files over the 'net, how do musicians (and songwriters, producers, studio engineers, etc) get paid? Some say concerts. That may work for some, but not all musicians. Touring can be quite expensive, particularly for large ensembles such as symphony orchestras. Also, many pop musicians feel they do their best work in the recording studio rather than on the road (for example, the Beatles' last official live performance was in 1966, before what many feel is their most productive period).

      Some musicians may be reserved or introverted or have stage fright and don't connect well with audiences large enough to be financially worthwhile. Others have health problems or family responsibilities that inhibit touring. And songwriters don't perform live at all, unless they happen to be singers or part of a band.

    2. Re:Two industries by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      How does Starbucks make money when people can brew their own coffee at home for a lot less?

    3. Re:Two industries by newt0311 · · Score: 1

      may I refer you to the Street performer protocol (http://www.schneier.com/paper-street-performer.ht ml)

    4. Re:Two industries by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Now this is actually an interesting one. Starbucks is amongst the most expensive ways you could get something resembling coffee (I do NOT call that black sludge you get there coffee!), so why is it popular?

      One could say 'cause people are stupid and follow a hype, but that isn't all of it. Coffee houses have been popular here before Starbucks (and no, this is not Amsterdam and no, people DO go there for the coffee). It's the "additional value" of being there with your friends or simply enjoying the atmosphere.

      Hard to copy to the content industry, if you ask me.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  19. Digital strategy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Good thing I'm using one of these:


    RT-909


    I'm a hipster!

  20. Dam breaks free by tedgyz · · Score: 1

    What these RIAA asshats don't realize is that they have been a huge impediment to satisfying the needs of customers. They discovered a way to print money and are unwilling to admit the party is over.

    As soon as consumers found a way to bypass the aging distribution model, the dam was let loose. Or to abuse a few other metaphors... the genie is out of the bottle... the cat is out of the bag...

    --
    "No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
    1. Re:Dam breaks free by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Pandora's box opened.

      Though, this isn't unique to the content industry. Look around you and tell me that the goods offered match your demand. With competition being eliminated and only a handful of corporations remaining, they pretty much dictate what is produced.

      It's stunning to see that communism finally won, though in very different and quite twisted ways.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. So easy to poke holes by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's so easy to poke holes in how awful the industry's current strategy is... but I haven't heard anyone convincingly lay out a better strategy. It's truly harder to come up with a good original idea than to rip other people's ideas to shreds.

    I will just say this: I think the industry's paranoid, DRM-pushing strategy is based on them hugely misinterpreting the data of recent years.

    "Piracy is increasing!"
    "Our sales are declining!"

    Flawed conclusion: Sales are declining due to increased piracy!
    Flawed course of action: Get more strict about stopping piracy!

    Reality: Very few instances of piracy are lost sales; most people pirate just because they can, but if they couldn't, they sure as hell wouldn't go out and buy legitimate copies of everything they've pirated. People will pirate anything regardless of quality, but most people won't pay for content that sucks and just keeps getting worse. Also, you can't expect people to keep paying $18 for a pre-pressed audio CD when they know damn well it only costs $2 to make (since they can do it themselves at home on a PC and know what's involved).

    Correct conclusion: Sales are declining due to decreasing value proposition (overpriced sucky content on increasingly cheap media).
    Correct course of action: Aggresively seek out (or create!) better content and promote it; stop promoting crap; drop price-per-unit.

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
    1. Re:So easy to poke holes by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The flaw already starts way earlier. There is no increasing piracy. People just have a ton more stuff to spend money on.

      The main demographic target group for CD sales is the age group between 14 and 25. Until about 1995, all they had to spend their money on was music. Of course sales were good back then. Then the cellphone came on and, I'm pretty sure this is a world wide phenomenon, everyone and their dog had to have one and, at least here, teenagers spend a sizable portion of their money on their phone bills.

      With less money for music, they simply can't buy it. Simple as that. Whether they want it or not, and whether they pirate it because they can't buy it is moot. If they could not pirate it, the only other option is to abstain, since there is no money left for the CD.

      Btw, the raw creation cost of a pressed CD is closer to 10 cents.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:So easy to poke holes by MacWiz · · Score: 1

      Sales are declining because every year the rosters are cut and fewer records are released.

  22. Just some thoughts... by Antony-Kyre · · Score: 1

    There is no limit to what they're going to want to tax. With this in mind, perhaps it's best not to have any levies at all.

    A better solution may encompass letting the recording industry go tax free in all regards. By this I mean no income tax, no sales tax on the materials purchased (i.e. the CDs), etc. In exchange for this, they would have to agree not to sue anyone unless it's for true piracy. I.e. selling someone else's intellectual property (like making copies and eBaying them off).

  23. Re: Toronto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pfft. If you had better food, better public transit and better parties, the housing wouldn't be cheaper :)

  24. Re: Toronto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Better food? Debatable. Most restaurants are overrated here, they just rely on the undeserved reputation of Montreal for food. Public transit? You mean the Metro where people SMOKE in the train, light up CRACK PIPES and generally have tons of homeless people loitering around? Better parties? A party's a party. Cheaper housing? You don't live here, that's for sure.


    I'll take TO over Montreal. And soon, it might happen.

  25. Re: Toronto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Montreal has all those english-hating french people though

  26. Worthless product by vimbuza · · Score: 1

    It seems that since a recording becomes completely worthless once the first run is let loose in the wild, maybe the recording industry should start releasing recordings on a pre order only basis.

    1. Re:Worthless product by NotTheNickIWanted · · Score: 1

      Such a business model assumes that the consumer is willing to gamble his money against an unknown.

      At current media prices it may only serve to sustain artists with an established fan base, while making it much more difficult for newcomers to break out.

      --

      unsigned int question = 0x2B | ~(0x2B)
  27. I'll pay for the convenience by tgibbs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But will this new strategy really keep piracy at low levels? If I know that one of my friends has a hot new track that he downloaded from a site that lets the users download MP3s, it would seem stupid(in my opinion) for someone to fork over a dollar for the track. If I can get a good from free(from the friend), why in the world would I pay for it? Would it not become even easier to share copyrighted content?


    I buy a newspaper almost every day, although if I wanted to save the 50 cents, I could surely find a discarded newspaper or ask a friend to give me his copy after he's done. Or I could hang out next to a newspaper vending box and piggy-back on somebody else's coin to steal a copy for myself. But the convenience of picking it up from the vendor or the box without having to look around or ask around is worth more to me than the money that I could save.

    1. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      You forgot one: You can buy fish 'n chips and read yesterday's newspaper for free.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by psychrono · · Score: 1

      But the convenience of picking up [the newspaper] from the vendor or the box without having to look around or ask around is worth more to me than the money that I could save.

      Sure, that logic works for buying a newspaper because you are assuming the time cost factor of getting it sooner.


      In most cases though when considering buying music in a store or downloading it... it comes down to a few other factors.


      When do you get the urge to hear some music again? Perhaps after you listen to the radio going to or from work? Maybe a friend recommended a song to you at work, over the phone, or online.

      At that point, what is easier for you to do to listen to that song again (or for the first time)? Spend 30+ minutes (possibly) driving out to purchase the cd at the store or the 3 minutes it takes to find the song online and download it...

      Fairly obvious to most people they would rather spend 3 minutes than 30 just to listen to the song.

      If your time is worth X amount of money, then why waste all that time and inconvenience yourself unless you really need the quality of the tracks on a CD for other purposes (re-sampling for personal use, remixing, etc).

      Perhaps if more artist's works were available online directly from their site more people would be willing to spend the 1 or $2 to get the individual song knowing that money is going directly to the artist instead of the leeches at the **AA.

      I've purchased the anthem song from Sensation White (http://sensation.id-t.com/) for example because it was readily available from their site at a reasonable price.

      I don't buy a lot of music (I listen to a lot of online radio because I dislike western Canada's / US radio stations and styles of music aside from classical stations) and this is the the most "convenient" thing for me to do, so that's what I do.

      I spend my money on things that I enjoy, not on things that the **AA think I should enjoy and pay levies for blank media I use in my car or other devices.

    3. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      At that point, what is easier for you to do to listen to that song again (or for the first time)? Spend 30+ minutes (possibly) driving out to purchase the cd at the store or the 3 minutes it takes to find the song online and download it...


      Maybe. Googling through various sites, installing it in my music player, listening to it on the spot while I'm thinking about it to make sure that it is OK and good quality. 3 minutes seems a bit optimistic based on my experience. But even then I'd pay a buck or so just to be able to click on iTunes, click iTMS, click on the song, and have it automatically downloaded, in known quality, and installed in iTunes with all of the tags correct so that I don't have to futz with it. And in seconds rather than minutes. I don't do that now for only one reason--DRM. Instead I go to Amazon, type in the song name and order the used CD. Still a lot faster than googling for a free copy, and better quality, DRM-free, and a backup disk in the bargain. But I do have to wait for it to show up in the mail, so I'd probably go with iTMS if it wasn't for the DRM.
    4. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And here you hit the nail right on the head. Would you do the same if the paper costed 5 bucks? Or would you actually start pondering how to avoid that expense?

      Even if you don't, many would. Going out of your way just to save 50 cents makes you a cheapskate and puts you, for me, at the same level of the people I belittle for driving around town for an hour in the search for the gas station that sells fuel for 5 cents less a gallon. At 5 bucks, on the other hand, it starts being "real" money.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      And here you hit the nail right on the head. Would you do the same if the paper costed 5 bucks? Or would you actually start pondering how to avoid that expense?

      Five bucks, probably not. I probably wouldn't seek out free copies, though, I'd probably just stop reading the paper. One buck? I'd probably continue to buy a copy. And I get considerably less use out of a paper than I do out of a song.

      Going out of your way just to save 50 cents makes you a cheapskate and puts you, for me, at the same level of the people I belittle for driving around town for an hour in the search for the gas station that sells fuel for 5 cents less a gallon.

      Which is pretty much the way I feel about people who search the web for free copies of music and videos that are available for a buck or two from legitimate retailers.

    6. Re:I'll pay for the convenience by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I think you're absolutely correct. I keep tell people this (I know a couple people in record companies and related jobs). The reason why iTunes has been successful, in my opinion, is that it's very convenient and not too-ridiculously-expensive. But the convenience is key! The only possible reason for anyone to buy a song from an online store is convenience.

      If you can buy something online, that means you already have an internet connection fast enough to download music. This means you have the option of pirating. Therefore everyone is deciding to buy the song rather than downloading for free-- and why? Because when you pirate music, you need to know how. You need to know what sites to go to, which P2P apps to use, how to use bittorrent, etc. It's not the easiest and most convenient method of finding things, but it is getting easier all the time. Therefore, if you want people to purchase music, you must make your store easier.

      Another problem with piracy is that you can't always be sure you're downloading what you really want. Sometimes songs are mislabled, and the actual audio isn't what the filename suggests. Sometimes the quality is bad for some reason, the file is corrupted, or it was just ripped with too low of a bitrate for your tastes. Therefore, an online store should provide better methods for you to find something worth purchasing, assurances that you're buying what you intend to buy, and a known-good quality level.

      The final problem with piracy is just that it's illegal, and there's a small chance of punishment. Therefore (and this is a no-brainer) there should be no threat to people using online stores that they'll be punished for buying from the online store. This means the software can't have spyware or kill-switches that attempt to varify your songs are legitimate or tries to punish you for having illegitamate songs. This also means, to my mind, that online stores shouldn't have vendor lock-in or DRM which punish consumers for trying to adhere to the law and purchase music legally. There should be no greater restriction on legal downloads than there are restrictions on illegal downloads.

      Of course, the main thing that will always discourage legal downloads is price. As long as it costs *something*, it will cost more than illegal downloads. Therefore, songs should be priced to reflect the level of convenience offered, and not to some arbitrary perceived value of the song itself. People will always pay something for convenience.

  28. Re: Toronto by HappySqurriel · · Score: 1

    Come to Calgary ... We have all the French-hating English people

  29. Why is the levy so bad? by Mister_IQ · · Score: 0

    I don't quite understand the "the blank media levy is terrible!" stuff that I keep seeing.

    I, as a Canadian, get to download all the music I want. The price for that is not prohibitive. The organization gets the money (them not paying it out fairly is a problem with the mechanics of the system, not the reasoning behind the system).

    Not all media is used for copying music? So? I pay gasoline taxes that go to road infrastructure even when I use the gasoline in my lawnmower or snowmobile or to soak engine parts. I pay school taxes even though I homeschool my kids.

    Instead of looking at it as "they consider me a thief, I am subsidizing people who are stealing music", I consider it "Hmm, I have a license to get any music I want, legally". The extra money on my iPod buys me the right to get any music I want, not just those that I have on CD. You don't want to do that, fine, but the right is there.

    I think I must be missing something, because I can't reconcile the "but in Canada they can download!" and the "but the levy is bad!" statements. You often see the former in discussing the American system, and the latter when discussing the Canadian system.

    An open licence to copy is a convenient good thing, in my book. The levy seems about as reasonable a way to collect a fee for that as any. It seems very Canadian to tax something to provide a service to all. :)

    1. Re:Why is the levy so bad? by tedgyz · · Score: 1

      We complain because it is perpetuating a flawed business model whose fulcrum was the monopoly on distribution. Paying a tax on something obsolete just seems silly.

      --
      "No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
    2. Re:Why is the levy so bad? by JoshJ · · Score: 1

      Dunno if you're in America or Canada (assuming the latter), but either way, there are certainly multiple taxes you're paying for silly things- at the minimum, the government is certainly funding obsolete, silly, and inane things that they really shouldn't be- with your tax monies.

    3. Re:Why is the levy so bad? by javahacker · · Score: 1

      I pay gasoline taxes that go to road infrastructure even when I use the gasoline in my lawnmower or snowmobile or to soak engine parts. I pay school taxes even though I homeschool my kids.

      There is a fundamental difference to me here. You pay those taxes to PUBLIC institutions for PUBLIC infrastructure, not to give away to corporations that can't figure out how to make money. You actually do use the public roads and highways. You could use the public schools, but elected not to. Everyone else benefits from those taxes you pay, by traveling on those roads, and by improved delivery of items they purchase (if no other way). Usually the people using the service are those that are taxed. Society benefits from public education, as do you, even if you don't use that service. How does society benefit from paying off the RIAA and MPAA?

      As a point of reference, I buy CDs from local bands direct from the band when they perform. The band gets the entire amount I pay, less their production costs, thus getting not only what a record label would pay them, but also what the record label would keep. This is a model that may not make them rich, but does give back to the people who count, those who actually make the music. This kind of model, on a larger scale, is what will get us better quality music, not paying the RIAA and MPAA.

    4. Re:Why is the levy so bad? by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      Because if I want to burn 500 copies of Linux to CDs, why should I have to pay 500 music levies?

      Because paying a levy automatically assumes you're a pirate. It says "hey, man, we're OK with you being a pirate". But you're branded a pirate nonetheless and you pay a price for being a pirate.

      Because if you buy CDs in Canada, pay your levy, then download American music, the RIAA is still going to be daggers at you (not sure if they can do anything across the border, but still).

    5. Re:Why is the levy so bad? by ToriaUru · · Score: 1

      They can get their Canadian counterpart the CRIA to come after you. The same stupidity exists in Canada, only they don't get reported as much as the RIAA.

      --
      Toria
  30. Re: Toronto by Eggz+Factor · · Score: 1

    Toronto?!? Come on - everyone knows Montreal's got better food, better public transit, better parties, and cheaper housing


    Man alive. I live in Toronto, but have to admit that ontreal women are more gorgeous, and better dressed.
    --
    blah, blah, blah...
  31. WRT levy, I'm not as optimistic as Geist is ... by vic-traill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read two issues in TFA: 1) listening to Jobs and rumours about a DRM-free EMI, DRM is on the way out and 2) the copying levy in Canada is also on the way out, albeit not so quickly, and maybe to be replaced by something else. I'm thrilled by the first, but less optimistic (and possibly less enthusiastic) about the second.

    What pisses me off about DRM is that it is not just about ensuring that content cannot be distributed to anyone holus-bolus, but it is about restricting use far and beyond current practise. It is useful to think about DRM not just in the context of say music distribution, but rather in terms of its impact on content distribution and sharing in general. A good example is Stallman's The Right to Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html; I don't think there are many people out there who will dispute that I should be able to loan you a book to read, but the current climate and direction of DRM is to indeed to restrict that practise. 'The Right to Read' might have seemed a little far-fetched in 1997 when it was written, but it sure doesn't look all that unlikely now, does it? DRM is no longer (and maybe never was!) about saving content producers from low-effort, high-volume piracy - it is now about fundamentally changing the consumers rights regarding the use of that content.

    The copy levy in Canada was intended to recover dollars lost to producers and distributors as a result of technology that facilitated easy copying and the resultant alleged lost revenue. My problem with this is that we don't know whether any revenue actually is lost, and even if we accept that some is, quantifying the lost revenue is not really possible. Well, I guess you can make numbers up, but that's about it. :)

    The levy has turned out to have a useful legal side-effect in Canada in that it has provided a basis for stopping P2P downloading from being identified as illegal, much to the chagrin of the distribution industry, who lobbied for the levy in the first place. Extending the levy to other devices I don't like the sound of quite so much.

    However, as other posters have noted, we really haven't addressed the problem of compensation for the admittedly low-effort, higher-quality-that-cassette-mixed-tapes digital piracy that abounds today. If I download a song from my P2P network of choice, the artist hasn't been compensated. I'm suspicious of the levy being used as a mechanism for such compensation, because it is so circuitous, but I don't see the industry letting this one go now that they've got it, unless they are blindly pissed off by the legal side-effect.

    As long as the levy lets me download music without fear of reprisal, and if those levy dollars could be used as a rough justice method to compensate artists for piracy that does occur (and yes, I do know this may be difficult/not possible), then I'm okay with the levy. I may even be able to live with an extension of the levy

    Are there any other ideas out there about how we can fairly compensate artists for uncompensated distribution of their work?
    --
    [17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
    1. Re:WRT levy, I'm not as optimistic as Geist is ... by Aviation+Pete · · Score: 1

      What about this: Make all copying legal. The only source of income for artists will then be through life performance. Just like in the old days! This model supported a vibrant, hugely creative culture then, why should it not continue to work?
      The current model only distorts the rewards in favor of the top-rated performers. They earn money totally out of proportion to their work, and most other artists of similar quality (but less luck) lose out. The intermediaries who cream off most of the revenue will no longer be needed. No more labels, and all our money will directly and fully benefit the artists.
      Sounds too simple? Again, this has worked for centuries!

      --
      You know it's time for the next revolution when your rulers' names end with roman numerals.
  32. DRM has slashed my consumption of music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have a collection of about 500 cds mostly purchased at full price from chain stores. You do the math as to what that put in the pockets of the RIAA.
    Most of these were purchased before DRM existed and include numerous full-catalogue purchases. I have no ripped-off material.
    I have about 3 or 4 DRM'd cds. They SUCK. They all give me problems on older players that I have, or refuse to play on my PC through the speakers. That's not trying to copy them or anything fancy, they just don't F'n work on sub-optimal equipment, where everything else does.
    End. I don't buy music anymore. Not if it has a DRM logo on it. Neither do I steal it BTW, I just don't consume music anymore, except for some local homegrown bands who cut their own slugs, sell direct and pocket the income.
    Goodbye RIAA.

    1. Re:DRM has slashed my consumption of music by Technician · · Score: 1

      End. I don't buy music anymore. Not if it has a DRM logo on it.

      I don't look for the DRM logo. Not all junk has it. I look for the Compact Disc logo to ensure compliance with the CD standard specification.

      No logo, no sale.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    2. Re:DRM has slashed my consumption of music by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      I'm like you in as much as I have a large collection of proper music CDs and much prefer to listen to my music from CD on a relatively decent hi-fi setup. I have ripped my complete collection to MP3 for portability purposes and I don't have any illegal downloads - occasionally, I'll see an album on Usenet that I like the look of in which case I download it and listen to it. If it's good, I buy it and if it's bad, I delete the downloads.

      As for DRMed CDs, I have a few of them but they play fine on all my players; plus cdparanoia (Linux) and Exact Audio Copy (Windows) have absolutely no problem ripping them. So in this instance, DRM does not affect what I deem to be my fair usage of the CDs.

      However, before I discovered those two programs for ripping, I did have two occasions where I could not rip the CDs. In both those cases, I went straight back to the store with them, demanding either an un-DRMed copy (which of course they could not supply me with) or my money back.

      Only on one of those occasions did I have to insist to see the manager because the store person refused my refund. After some minutes of arguing with him, he eventually agreed to a refund - this was on the basis that I would report his store to UK Trading Standards for misleading me as a customer by not clearly placing copy-protected CDs in their own section in the store.

      So it does pay to stand up for your rights and not let them get away with it, rather than, as a music lover, just not buying them any more.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  33. Re: Toronto by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    "Montreal has all those english-hating french people though"

    Really? I just spent a month serving on a bilingual jury - 4 english and 8 french canadians ... everyone treated everyone else with the utmost respect. Many involved were bilingual - including the entire jury, the judge, the crown and defense lawyers, our police escorts, the clerk, the bailiff, the sheriff, many of the witnesses ...

    The french don't hate the english - they just hate jerks, same as everyone else does ...

  34. Re: Toronto by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    "Better food? Debatable. Most restaurants are overrated here, they just rely on the undeserved reputation of Montreal for food."

    Most restaurants are overrated everywhere ... but home cooking is definitely better in Montreal than in Toronto. Sandwiches are not considered real food in Montreal. Breakfast isn't breakfast without cholesterol.

    "Public transit? You mean the Metro where people SMOKE in the train, light up CRACK PIPES and generally have tons of homeless people loitering around?"

    People don't smoke on the subway. I had to take it to the courthouse for 4 weeks, and not once did I see anyone smoking on a subway train. Then again, I wasn't on the subway at 01:00h in the morning. If you see someone doing it, use your cellphone to make a video of it, then call the cops ... its a $300.00 fine.

    As for the homeless, yes, they come into the stations during the day. It was brutally cold this last couple of weeks; it was -23 here last night. Are you going to begrudge them a little warmth?

    "Better parties? A party's a party."

    ... except in Toronto, where they roll up the sidewalks after midnight ...

    "Cheaper housing? You don't live here, that's for sure."

    Actually, I do, and I'm paying $200.00 less per month to to rent a house (including heating and electricity), than my aunt is paying for a cramped 4-1/2 in Toronto - she moved back there in December, same week I signed my lease here.

    "I'll take TO over Montreal. And soon, it might happen."

    So go. Just remember, the traffic is also a LOT worse in Toronto than in Montreal, so you're also going to lose another 20 to 30 hours a month in traffic to and from work ...

    I have 3 sisters living in Toronto, so its not like I'm totally unaware of what its like there ... one of them comes down here a few times a year and stocks up on real bagels every time, because you only get those crappy cake-style bagels in Toronto.

  35. What about CSS? by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    You do not need these lock down schemes to part my money from my wallet. Just look at my DVD and CD shelf. Really, you don't need DRM.

    I quite agree that DRM isn't good or necessary, but don't DVDs still ship with CSS encryption on them? I don't own many DVDs (a dozen, all were gifts), but as I understand it CSS encryption qualifies as a digital restriction despite being cracked. deCSS is still being passed around semi-secretly from servers in countries that don't have a DMCA equivalent, and no major free software OS distributes deCSS as part of the standard distribution, isn't that still the case?

    1. Re:What about CSS? by JoshJ · · Score: 1

      Linspire has a legal license to distribute DVD playback software. Their Click-And-Run thing, when launched, will allow for it to be "legitimately" downloaded on multiple distributions (debian fedora freespire linspire opensuse ubuntu is what their page shows).
      Enjoy.

    2. Re:What about CSS? by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      When you said "launched" I wasn't sure if you meant program execution or some organization beginning a service. Apparently you meant the latter; it looks like Click-and-Run isn't available yet. So if you want to play DVDs with free software now, this is not an option.

      deCSS plus some DVD player is an option, but it might be censored software where you live. Will Click-and-Run's DVD player program be free software as in respecting a user's freedom to run, inspect, share, and modify the program at any time? Or is this just another deal to distribute proprietary software to GNU/Linux users?

      In any event, I am left to believe that DVD CSS does indeed qualify as digital restrictions management. Thus DVDs aren't an example of DRM-free media. Perhaps most audio CDs would be a better example of DRM-free media.

    3. Re:What about CSS? by skoaldipper · · Score: 1

      > but don't DVDs still ship with CSS encryption on them?

      Yes, sir, I believe most do. The major differences between DIVX and CSS is quite a bit though. DIVX was so restrictive you even had to activate the service again (after owning the disc already) just to play it on another DIVX capable player; much worse than even the Fairplay iPod scenario. DVD (CSS) is far more portable in contrast, but you're right, DRM nonetheless. I was quite fortunate to sell my DIVX player and collection on eBay during the major format push to DVD(s).

      --
      I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
  36. Related to this is "hitmaker" software. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    I really REALLY wish i had the foresight to record the episode, but around 1998 there was an episode of beyond 2000 (discovery channel) where they detailed a software called "hitmaker".

    it took a piece of music, analyzed it based on a bunch of criteria, and graphed it. Where it fell on the graph determines if it will be a "hit" or not.

    The advent of this software conincides with the homogenizing of all musical genres, and the stagnation of the music industry in general.

    Music simply ceased evolving, period, because it was no longer a&r's making the decision based on how much the liked it, or how innovative and new it was, and was instead based on a machine's analysis, on a series of 1's and 0's.

    2 years later, when the last of the naturally evolved music had lost its flare, sales started flagging and didn't stop until they had reached a plateau consistent with the loss of a major segment of their listeners and customers, the people who want to hear original, different, and groundbreaking tunes.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  37. Re:I know RIAA is enemy #1 here on /., by Technician · · Score: 1

    I know RIAA is enemy #1 here on /.

    I thought they were #3 on Slashdot. I guess I haven't been paying attention.

    I thought the top list was;

    #1 Microsoft
    #2 SCO
    #3 **AA

    Thanks for the update.

    I guess it's time for a new poll to update the official list.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  38. Re:Missing choice by Technician · · Score: 1

    The pirates offer a better product. Most of my friends would be willing to pay at least $.99 a song if it didn't have DRM and was encoded at a higher bitrate than iTunes, but they don't get that option - it's either accept the DRM, or pirate.

    Many people make the assumption if it isn't marketed, there is not a choice except to pirate. This is wrong. I do vote with my pocketbook, but you don't have to pirate to cast a no vote on high price and low quaility. Buy high quality alternatives instead. Money Talks! If emusic had no customers, then the RIAA can declare victory. Quite the contrary is happening. emusic is doing well. Some artists and labels are already following the money and going inde.

    The restrictiions on mainstream contnet is becomming problematic in consumer relations. (Apple lawsuit regarding interopability) The number of non-subscribers due to restrictions is huge. These consumers buy games, DVD's, upgrade computers, buy CD burners/DVD burners and such with their dollars they are not spending on DRM content. The value is much higher. The industry notices where the consumer spends their dollars. When they feel left out of the money, they then look to see what they are doing wrong. This is why the Steve Jobs comment got so much attention. He got what was keeping people out of the online store.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  39. pr0n industry won't pick up on watermarking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pr0n industry won't pick up on watermarking because of privacy issues, hence watermarking is dead before it's born.

  40. Great artists by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

    First, please don't compare visual artists with recording artists directly. The skills don't necc. overlap.
    I believe that the Beatles' music will be remembered a century from now--hey, its still being remembered now is worth something. Likely the more iconic drawings of John Lennon will be remembered as well. I suspect Paul McCartney's paintings will be remembered, too, but I don't know if they'll be remembered as good examples.
    Hey, at least one /. member has taken it on himself to remember one of the "worst" poets of the 19th century. ("What ho! The Tay Bridge has blown down!")
    Yes, we moderns have a strange idea of "great." It's not that we don't appreciate Beethoven, Vivaldi, and Mozart; often, we like them, but we just don't recognize them when we hear them. There aren't as many classical music buffs as there used to be, and I am sure that 100 years ago, there were classical musicians famous then & forgotten even among most buffs now.
    It's hard to know which modern artists are likely to last 100 years, because the art of recording music hasn't been around much longer than that. The art of recording it onto something that isn't a wax cylinder is likely shorter than that. But that doesn't mean none of them will last.
    If the Beatles (as a group) were going to be forgotten, it would have happened before now. Same for Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Elvis, the Who, and Marvin Gaye.

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  41. Sony is enemy #2 because of its RIAA membership.
    If Sony were not in the music biz, then it would not have sold CDs with rootkits on them. If Sony had not sold CDs with rootkits on them, then maybe members of /. would still like them because of all the Playstations.

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    1. Re:Sony? by Steve001 · · Score: 1

      Anonymous McCartneyf wrote:

      Sony is enemy #2 because of its RIAA membership.
      If Sony were not in the music biz, then it would not have sold CDs with rootkits on them. If Sony had not sold CDs with rootkits on them, then maybe members of /. would still like them because of all the Playstations.

      This something I've wondered about myself. It seems like having an interest in producing audio equipment and also having an interest in controlling music would be a conflict on interest. On one side is a interest in releasing music that can be freely played on all devices, but countering that is a interest in controlling the music to ensure that it is as unfree as possible.

      Just an observation.

    2. Re:Sony? by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      However, Sony is also a member of the MPAA, pushing the new, DRM-heavy Blu-Ray.

      Its second membership places it higher than either of them independently would.

      Their ego over the PS3 pushes them up there, too.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    3. Re:Sony? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Sony isn't the only RIAA corp. in the MPAA.
      There are four really large record labels, and they collectively are what we usually mean when we speak of an RIAA label. (The RIAA's site claimed that ClearChannel was a member--which actually explains a lot.)
      Three of the big RIAA corps. are also in the MPAA. Warner Bros. and some parts of Universal/MCA actually started in the MPAA. And the primary reason EMI isn't in the MPAA, if it isn't, is that its ownership is 100% British. (It does British defense contracts, so it has to be all-British.)
      Sony isn't unique because it's in the MPAA. It's unique because it still makes hardware for its content. If Sony hadn't bought Columbia Records and Columbia Pictures (which were in the RIAA and MPAA before Sony bought them), it likely would still do exasperating things, but it wouldn't have pushed DRM as hard, and it would never have sold the rootkit. I don't believe that Sony was actually hated in itself around here until the rootkit was discovered.
      Maybe Playstation 3s, and Sony's attitude towards them, would've been more reasonable if Sony didn't also make them cheap BluRay players...

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  42. watermarking unsolved problem by Baki · · Score: 3, Insightful

    what happens if my ipod is stolen with all watermarked (i.e. linked to me) songs? the thieve publishes to some p2p networks, and I am liable for millions of copies (i.e. billions of dollars)?

    watermarks solve nothing, you cannot sue anyone for being robbed.

    1. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by Machtyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, but once you report having been robbed of said item, you are no longer liable. Same thing with gun laws. If your gun is stolen and found to have been involved in a crime, you are not liable. Unless you are the one who actually committed the crime, but that has to be proven.

    2. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by Acer500 · · Score: 1

      Well, it could be just like if they stole your cell phone or e-mail account or something... I guess you could have the option of reporting it as stolen (in a webpage, to the police station, whatever).

      And they'd have to prove in court that it was actually you who distributed the files over the internet (of course the watermark would make it harder for you to prove you were innocent, but I hope, not impossible. I don't know how US law is either, but I think you should be able to get acquitted).

      I agree with the GP, I think I'd rather have watermarking than DRM.

      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    3. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by AusIV · · Score: 1

      what happens if my ipod is stolen with all watermarked (i.e. linked to me) songs? the thieve publishes to some p2p networks, and I am liable for millions of copies (i.e. billions of dollars)?

      I'd think if anything water marking would make it easier to track down your iPod. Most likely the RIAA would still pursue distributors in court, regardless of whether or not the music bore their watermark. If you reported your iPod stolen immediately, and the RIAA soon found one source distributing a lot of music with your watermark, they've probably found the person who stole your iPod. If your music has found it's way to half the internet before the RIAA picks up on it, you'd better have filed a report, but if there are a few people with a few of your songs and one person with all of your songs, the water-marking may end up finding the person who stole your iPod.

    4. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Ahh, so I just need to *borrow* your iPod, like say from your bag while you are at the gym, then return it to you before you notice it's gone. Voila, instant P2P distribution, and you'll never know to report it as stolen.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's no different to your car being stolen and used in a ram-raid, surely? In that situation no-one's going to charge you with theft.

    6. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by blank+axolotl · · Score: 1

      In that case there is no point to watermarking, from the point of view of the record companies. People could put songs up for download claiming they were stolen, and not get sued. It only takes one instance of the song being 'stolen' for the whole system to break down, as that one copy is available for download everywhere, with no one to sue about it. They might as well forget about watermarking. (not that I am in favor of drm, btw)

    7. Re:watermarking unsolved problem by Fivo · · Score: 1

      what happens if my ipod is stolen with all watermarked (i.e. linked to me) songs? the thieve publishes to some p2p networks, and I am liable for millions of copies (i.e. billions of dollars)?

      I'd think if anything water marking would make it easier to track down your iPod. Most likely the RIAA would still pursue distributors in court, regardless of whether or not the music bore their watermark. If you reported your iPod stolen immediately, and the RIAA soon found one source distributing a lot of music with your watermark, they've probably found the person who stole your iPod. If your music has found it's way to half the internet before the RIAA picks up on it, you'd better have filed a report, but if there are a few people with a few of your songs and one person with all of your songs, the water-marking may end up finding the person who stole your iPod.

      So, at the end of the day you've empowered more lawyers to create more litigation that effectively does nothing for the artists or the consumer past establishing a condition of automatic guilt to any process that uses the watermarked files.

      It just seems like it would be so much simpler to sell the materials for a price that would preclude pirating. When it costs more to pirate something than to buy it through legal channels, like iTunes, people will pick buying. Besides, consumers still appreciate marketing, ease of purchasing, and brand inclusion. The majority of Internet users are not going to become DalNet DCC groupies, ever.

  43. a different solution? by SpectralDesign · · Score: 1

    Sure -- off the top of my head...

    Keep the old business model in place, for the time being, and branch out. Start signing artists to contracts specifically for digital distribution -- do it without DRM or other inconveniences. This is an important detail: sign a huge variety of artists, not just the few that fall into the lowest-common-denominator-pop paradigms.... sign *talent* that has something new and different. Set up distribution and commerce channels that make it not only easy, but *inviting* for people to check-out the music you're publishing, and purchase it in a format that can be format shifted an infinite number of times, that is not watermarked, etc...

    I'd stake my life savings on this model... If you give people something of quality, make it easy for them to get it, and don't overcharge for it, your business is bound to do very, very well. Once they see the ratio of profit to expenditure on the new "product" they'll either change or absolve the old businesses, as they'd largely be a ball-and-chain around their ankle.

    --
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
  44. Who on earth... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    ...tagged this story with the word "music"? It's barely applicable to this, and, come to think of it, most other submissions relating to the RIAA these days.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  45. Which issues exactly? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    The actors are in full view.

    Purchasers very often use credit cards, so any person with the correct legal clearance. can get to the person buiyng stuff anyway.

    SO agian, which privacy issues?

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  46. The Machine That Changed The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...but I haven't heard anyone convincingly lay out a better strategy. It's truly harder to come up with a good original idea than to rip other people's ideas to shreds."

    You make the false assumption that anybody at all needs a so-called "strategy". When recording technology became viable in the 20th century, both copying and distribution remained inconvenient, time-consuming, imperfect, expensive and difficult in the first place. The "media industry" (the power-brokering cartels, excluding members of the centuries-old profession called "artist") served a very real and useful purpose. They distributed audio and video to people in a mutually beneficial business relationship.

    The personal computer removed all those barriers. Turns out the means of copying and distribution are quick, convenient, lossless, cheap and easy. The media industry is no longer a cheaper, easier, faster option for people to listen to music etc. The media cartels are middlemen whose offered business proposition is no longer the best available.

    So of course nobody offers a better solution to their problem. "Their problem" is moot; they are just an accessory, and they are obsolete. There is no problem, and there is no "they" in the first place. There is only a dinosaur who served well but is no longer useful, but who clings to life through self-serving legislation at the cost of the public at large, all for love of money.

  47. Bob Ezrin @ ECMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the industry's most accomplished producers, Bob Ezrin agrees and said as much in his keynote address at last weeks East Coast Music Awards:

    Interview with cbc after this speech:
    http://www.cbc.ca/soundslikecanada/media/20070219b obezrin.ram
    (apolgies for the real media link)

    I'm looking for the text or a recording of his speech at the awards, no luck yet.

    1. Re:Bob Ezrin @ ECMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best I can find so far is some quotes on Enigma Digital's KNAC.COM (Ezrin was a co-founder of Enigma Digital):

      Famed Record Producer Says, The "Record Business As We Know It, Is Already Dead"

  48. That's not how TCPA works by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

    Because the "ideal" trusted computing platform is built to refuse to run unsigned code period

    This is a common /. meme, but it's incorrect. A TCPA TPM has no ability to control what code can or cannot run on the system. It's just a little device that sits on a bus (usually USB, though I think there may be PCI implementations) right next to all of the rest of the devices on your system. Like all of the others, a TPM is controlled by the OS and applications, not the other way around.

    A TPM does four basic things:

    • Hashes data fed into it, storing the result in one of a few Program Control Registers (PCRs).
    • "Seals" keys to a specific PCR value, by XORing the TPM's internal master key with a PCR value and using the result to encrypt a key, which can then be stored by the OS/application software on the hard disk.
    • "Attests" to a specific PCR value, by generating a digital signature of the PCR value.
    • "Binds" data to a specific TPM, by encrypting it with a private key that exists only in that TPM.

    An operating system can refuse to run unsigned code, but it neither needs nor really benefits from a TPM to do that. What a TPM offers (through the PCR hashing and sealing of keys) is a way to make data inaccessible unless the machine is booted with a certain set of software as well as a way for a machine to prove that it is running a certain set of software.

    By itself, a TPM isn't a very useful tool for DRM, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with making a machine not a general-purpose computer -- you can always boot a different set of software that does whatever you want, because the TPM has no way to stop you.

    NGSCB/Palladium needs one more component to be able to implement really strong DRM: Hardware-supported virtualization, using Intel VT or AMD-V. The result would enable strong DRM, but only within specific virtual machines. Other virtual machines would still be fully general.

    In theory, you could implement strong DRM with only a TPM and no virtualization. The process would require you to boot into a "trustworthy" OS and then use remote attestation to prove to the content provider that your machine is "trustworthy". The content provider would then give you a key which would be sealed to your trustworthy state by the TPM. This key could then be used to encrypt media which you could only play when booted into the trustworthy OS.

    The problem with that is that the TPM attestation process only attests to a single hash value, meaning that all the various permutations of "trustworthy" configurations would have to be enumerated and the content provider would have to know the hashes. For several reasons, that's impractical. Workarounds based on attestation chains, where the TPM attests to PCR values at multiple points in the boot process, can be used, but those "prior" attestations are weak. There are also real problems with how to manage changes in the software stack (e.g. security patches), which would completely change the PCR values of the running system and disable access to the sealed keys unless an error-prone key migration dance was successfully performed during each update.

    Not only that, such an approach would only work if the OS had no exploitable security defects that might allow a user (usually with administrative access!) to bypass DRM checks in the running system. Securing a whole, general-purpose OS against the system administrator is exceedingly difficult. Look how much trouble we have securing OSes against code downloaded from random places and run under non-admin accounts in restricted sandboxes.

    The solution proposed by Microsoft in the Palladium design is to simplify the problem by having the OS boot up first (unhashed), then enable virtualization, installing a hypervisor underneath the OS and shifting the OS from running natively on the machine to running in a VM under the hypervisor.

    Given that state,

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    1. Re:That's not how TCPA works by dpilot · · Score: 1

      The other thing that IS happening is that en/decryption capabilities are being built into the peripheral devices, themselves. How about simply sending the encrypted video stream to the mpeg engine on your video card and it kicks out an encrypted audio stream to send to your sound card. Unencrypted data never goes near chip pins, let alone the PCI bus or onto a hard disk. Nothing in the clear until it's visible and audible.

      Scary - yes. Nasty - yes.

      But the good side is that perhaps it circumvents the whole TPM and OS-level control thing. That leaves TPM for ME to control, perhaps for something like anti-theft or other security measures.

      The real fear is if DRM-enabled (DRM-disabled?) peripherals won't allow full-capability usage of non-encrypted content. Can I do MY stuff at full capabilities?

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:That's not how TCPA works by swillden · · Score: 1

      The other thing that IS happening is that en/decryption capabilities are being built into the peripheral devices, themselves. How about simply sending the encrypted video stream to the mpeg engine on your video card and it kicks out an encrypted audio stream to send to your sound card. Unencrypted data never goes near chip pins, let alone the PCI bus or onto a hard disk. Nothing in the clear until it's visible and audible.

      Actually, I think a TPM plus Intel VT/AMD-V makes that arguably unnecessary. If devices are going to get into it, I think the logical approach (from the DRM perspective) is to push it out another layer -- to the actual display/speaker. That's what HDMI does. That way there's no way the user can grab the analog signal between the video card and display or between the sound card and speakers.

      But the good side is that perhaps it circumvents the whole TPM and OS-level control thing. That leaves TPM for ME to control, perhaps for something like anti-theft or other security measures.

      Yes, the TPM offers lots of great possibilities for system security. And, actually, the combination of a TPM plus hardware-assisted virtualization offers some fantastic opportunities for really airtight security. Think chroot, but with absolutely no way at all for malicious code to break out, *plus* an easy way for admins to remotely prove that the stuff in the jail has't been compromised. Like most technologies, this has both good and evil uses.

      The real fear is if DRM-enabled (DRM-disabled?) peripherals won't allow full-capability usage of non-encrypted content. Can I do MY stuff at full capabilities?

      I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not, but I think even with the full NGSCB infrastructure, you will. I can envision an architecture that puts the sound card driver in one VM, the secure audio server in another VM and the primary OS in a third. The sound card VM would just play whatever was sent to it, so you could write apps to send your stuff to it, no problem. Meanwhile, the secure audio server could handle verifying and decrypting DRM-protected data and then sending it to the sound card VM for playback. Because there would be no way for any code running in any other VM to get between the secure audio server and the sound card driver, or to compromise either of them, that would be almost as good as putting the security in the sound card itself.

      I think it would almost be better if such a DRM-enabled system did prevent you from doing your own stuff, then people would be less likely to accept it.

      --
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    3. Re:That's not how TCPA works by dpilot · · Score: 1

      >>The other thing that IS happening is that en/decryption capabilities are being built into the peripheral devices, themselves. How about simply sending the >>encrypted video stream to the mpeg engine on your video card and it kicks out an encrypted audio stream to send to your sound card. Unencrypted data never goes >>near chip pins, let alone the PCI bus or onto a hard disk. Nothing in the clear until it's visible and audible.

      >Actually, I think a TPM plus Intel VT/AMD-V makes that arguably unnecessary. If devices are going to get into it, I think the logical approach (from the DRM >perspective) is to push it out another layer -- to the actual display/speaker. That's what HDMI does. That way there's no way the user can grab the analog signal >between the video card and display or between the sound card and speakers.

      As part of my job, I've seen block diagrams with encryption/decryption engines scattered at various paranoid points. You're right about HDMI, but the block diagrams I've seen make sure that clear media never makes it near anything you can hang a wire off of. In other words, they're concerned about people opening the case and hanging a logic analyzer onto traces on the card. Well, probably the PCI/PCI-E bus, but they've planned it at the card level.

      >I think it would almost be better if such a DRM-enabled system did prevent you from doing your own stuff, then people would be less likely to accept it.

      Good point. Let's hope they're no better at rolling this stuff out than they have been so far at designing and implementing it.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    4. Re:That's not how TCPA works by swillden · · Score: 1

      In other words, they're concerned about people opening the case and hanging a logic analyzer onto traces on the card. Well, probably the PCI/PCI-E bus, but they've planned it at the card level.

      I suppose that makes sense, from a particularly twisted viewpoint :). And, actually, it fits in nicely with the "secure audio server" VM notion. Putting the actual DRM in an audio card is problematic because it's too "fixed". You can't easily manage a dozen different DRM schemes, plus you probably don't want to make it so that consumers can't replace their sound card without losing all their music. Instead, just have the secure audio server VM (SASVM) establish an encrypted channel to the sound card. Then the SASVM can validate and decrypt the stream, then re-encrypt it for secure tranfer to the audio card -- which may decrypt it, separate it into channels and re-encrypt it for secure transfer to each speaker.

      Oh, I forgot the sound card VM. Maybe the SASVM will establish a secure channel with the SCVM, which will establish a secure channel with the card, which has established secure channels to each of the speakers -- with unwrapping and rewrapping being performed at each step.

      I guess it's job security for a bunch of crypto guys and secure software/hardware engineers, even if it doesn't do anything other than convince users to grab their media off bit torrent because they can't find a way to format shift it themselves.

      Good point. Let's hope they're no better at rolling this stuff out than they have been so far at designing and implementing it.

      Yes, this stuff is all sufficiently hard to get right that depending on industry incompetence is probably pretty safe. Making stuff really secure is hard to do on a small scale. Doing it across dozens of companies scattered around the globe and all competing for the same consumer's scarce dollars... yeah, my ability to back up and format shift my movies and music is probably safe forever.

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      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:That's not how TCPA works by dpilot · · Score: 1

      >I suppose that makes sense, from a particularly twisted viewpoint :). And, actually, it fits in nicely with the "secure audio server" VM notion. Putting the >actual DRM in an audio card is problematic because it's too "fixed". You can't easily manage a dozen different DRM schemes, plus you probably don't want to make >it so that consumers can't replace their sound card without losing all their music. Instead, just have the secure audio server VM (SASVM) establish an encrypted >channel to the sound card. Then the SASVM can validate and decrypt the stream, then re-encrypt it for secure tranfer to the audio card -- which may decrypt it, >separate it into channels and re-encrypt it for secure transfer to each speaker.

      The block diagram I saw was for video, so I was only presuming audio would be similar. This video system had encryption engines (note the 's') scattered in various places. Strikes me that this couldn't have even been done until current levels of integration. They may well have more silicon in encryption that they used to have in regular function.

      >I guess it's job security for a bunch of crypto guys and secure software/hardware engineers, even if it doesn't do anything other than convince users to grab >their media off bit torrent because they can't find a way to format shift it themselves.

      So far it seems to have either been job security for wannabees, or for real security people stifled under management that doesn't listen.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    6. Re:That's not how TCPA works by swillden · · Score: 1

      So far it seems to have either been job security for wannabees, or for real security people stifled under management that doesn't listen.

      I don't know about that. AACS is well done (the subset-difference scheme for key revocation is downright beautiful), and I think HDMI is as well. Certainly the ideas around Palladium/NGSCB are pretty good.

      I suppose the "management doesn't listen" part might be accurate enough. Or maybe the geeks prefer just to do their best and take the money, even though they know what they're being asked to do is practically impossible. I've done that a few times myself, when it became clear that management just Didn't Want to Hear It.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  49. Darn Right, There's Something Wrong... by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

    1. The Beatles, 2. The Rolling Stones, 3. Jimi Hendrix, 4. Led Zeppelin, 5. Bob Dylan, 6. James Brown, 7. David Bowie, 8. Elvis Presley, 9. The Who, 10. The Police, 11. Stevie Wonder, 12. Ray Charles, 13. The Beach Boys, 14. Marvin Gaye, 15. Eric Clapton. Isn't there something wrong here?

    I'll say there is something wrong. If great art is a form of worship, Clapton should have ranked much higher. After all, Clapton is God.

    --
    -
  50. and who own the the TPM's internal master key? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    you said:
    A TPM does four basic things:

            * "Seals" keys to a specific PCR value, by XORing the TPM's internal master key with a PCR value and using the result to encrypt a key, which can then be stored by the OS/application software on the hard disk.


    And just who owns "the TPM's internal master key"?
    Can the owner of the machine see it/change it?
    Can the owner of the machine disable it for warm and fuzy feelings? (and not "a-la-P3-s/n-disabled-until-remotely-reenabled" disable either)
    IOW: with a "TPM-enabled" mobo, who owns who?

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    1. Re:and who own the the TPM's internal master key? by swillden · · Score: 1

      And just who owns "the TPM's internal master key"?

      The device, basically.

      Can the owner of the machine see it/change it?

      See it? No. That would make it possible for someone else to get it. No decent security device will ever reveal its master key.

      Change it? Yes. The "take ownership" command causes the TPM to wipe its master key and generate a new one using its hardware TRNG. You can't tell it which one to use, because that would be back to the leakage problem.

      Can the owner of the machine disable it for warm and fuzy feelings?

      Sure. You can disable the TPM in the BIOS, or use a bootloader/OS/app stack that's configured not to use it.

      IOW: with a "TPM-enabled" mobo, who owns who?

      The question doesn't really make sense. The TPM provides a set of services (the ones I listed plus a few more) to the OS and applications. How those services are used is what decides whether the TPM has any impact related to "ownership" and exactly what that impact is.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:and who own the the TPM's internal master key? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      re:
      Change it? Yes. The "take ownership" command causes the TPM to wipe its master key and generate a new one using its hardware TRNG. You can't tell it which one to use, because that would be back to the leakage problem.

      I guess it would be wise to run the "take ownership" command when you first receive a PC with TPM in case anybody ... err.. set it to something. From what I gather you can't set the Master key to a specific value. we've been lied to before, however.

      Is there a way to make sure (indirectly, of course) that the Master key is different AFTER you run the "take ownership" command?

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    3. Re:and who own the the TPM's internal master key? by swillden · · Score: 1

      I guess it would be wise to run the "take ownership" command when you first receive a PC with TPM in case anybody ... err.. set it to something.

      You could, but you'd get the same effect by formatting the drive. The TPM's master key value is only relevant with respect to the keys that are sealed using it, and I can't think of any reason anyone would seal such a key and then store it off the machine... Maybe there is a reason, though. By running "take ownership" you would ensure that anything sealed to the former value could no longer be decrypted.

      From what I gather you can't set the Master key to a specific value. we've been lied to before, however.

      I don't think anyone would lie about this, because anyone who wants to use the TPM for security wants to make sure the master key never escapes. That applies just as much to the pro-DRM world as it does to the world of enterprise sysadmins who want to use the TPM to secure their servers. If the key can ever exist outside the TPM, then it can leak, meaning that all of the secrets it protects can be "unsealed". That, in turn, means that the security has a big gaping hole. In the case of a TPM used as part of a DRM scheme, it means the DRM is broken.

      Is there a way to make sure (indirectly, of course) that the Master key is different AFTER you run the "take ownership" command?

      Sure, it'd be easy. "LKM" below stands for "Local Master Key".

      1. Boot Linux (because Linux has the best TPM tools at the moment)
      2. Hash some stuff into the TPM to initialize a PCR to a known state.
      3. Give the TPM a 128-bit value to "seal". It will encrypt it with LKM xor PCR and hand back the result.
      4. Write down the result and reboot
      5. Hash the same stuff into the TPM to initialize the PCR to the same state.
      6. Give the TPM the same 128-byte value to "seal". Verify that what comes back is the same as last time.
      7. Reboot.
      8. Run "take ownership".
      9. Hash the same stuff into the TPM to initialize the PCR to the same state.
      10. Give the TPM the same 1280byte value to "seal". Note that what comes back is different now.

      Alternatively, you can try to unseal the sealed value before and after taking ownership. Obviously, before taking ownership you should get the original 128-bit value back, and after taking ownership you'll get something else.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  51. Re: Toronto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "Most restaurants are overrated everywhere"

    "Everywhere" doesn't go on and on about how great their food is, though. I am *tired* of eating utility grade meat in so-called "great" restaurants.

    "People don't smoke on the subway."

    I have pictures of a guy smoking in the train, at 8:30 AM. I see a person smoking on the subway AT LEAST once a week. The crack guy was exceptional, but not unheard of. I know, because I'm the guy taking the pictures. Oh and when you hear the voice announcing a metro delay because they're 'waiting for authorization', that's code speak for "we're waiting for the rent-a-cops to drag away the smelly crack addict."

    "Are you going to begrudge them a little warmth?"

    I pay nearly 50% of my gross income in taxes. Let the assholes who steal my money actually DO something with it, rather than me having to step on vomit and piss-stained old clothes every day. Let the homeless crash in Tremblay's digs, the smug egotistical fucker might do something for them, then.

    "... except in Toronto, where they roll up the sidewalks after midnight ..." So go out an hour earlier. Toronto also has a much bigger array of places to pick from.

    "So go. Just remember, the traffic is also a LOT worse in Toronto than in Montreal"

    At least I'll be able to afford a car. How much higher are the wages and the taxes lower?

  52. Re:Use of the word 'Man' by TropicalCoder · · Score: 1

    Use of the word 'Man' as reference to humankind excludes women...

    Wikipedia says... The English term "Man" (from Proto-Germanic mannaz "man, person") and words derived therefrom can designate any or even all of the human race regardless of their gender or age. This is indeed the oldest usage of "Man" in English. This derives from a Proto-Indo-European root *man-" meaning hand. A similar cognate is Old Norse "mund", hand. The distinctive and dexterous hands of humans, compared to those of other animals, are the basis of this term and the similarly derived term, "manual" (from Latin "Manus", hand), by hand.

    However, your point is well taken when you say "Welcome to the 21st century, enjoy your stay.", as it is well known that these days people often employs gender neutral terms in order to be politically correct. I am sorry, but I just never got the hang of all that politically correct speech. It all began well after I graduated and formed my primary vocabulary. I hope that my respect for women-kind is obvious in more direct, everyday actions and behaviour, even if I do not adopt the latest trendy double-think. Speaking directly to any women who may be reading this, if I have offended you, please accept my deepest apologies. Clearly women have made every bit as much or more contribution to our culture as men, but why in the world would you ever doubt that anyhow?

  53. The Levy makes it legal by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

    I'm suprised nobody brought to court by the RIAA hasn't argued that they already paid for the Music/Video because all their blank media has a Levy (tax) based on the industry losing money to copying.

    So you paid for it.

    If the RIAA doesn't like the deal, then they can either end the Levy or increase it -- it seems to be their ballgame. But you cannot accept money for a service, and then say it wasn't enough -- can you? How can they presume a tax based on theft? Isn't that a subsidy for usage?

    And I agree with teknomage1 -- about 99.5% of my DVDs and CDs has had my data backed up, or passed around or distributed -- not the RIAA's lost music. Most of the music I have is from my Wife's CD collection on a hard drive to run her iPod. CDs and DVDs of music just gather dust.

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  54. Re:Use of the word 'Man' by Brickwall · · Score: 1
    Speaking directly to any women who may be reading this

    You must be new here. The chance that a woman reads any given post on /. is minute, if not infinitesimal.

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
  55. How do you valuate a commodity like music? by pjviitas · · Score: 1

    If one simply watched the music which falls off their personal playlists over the years, it's quite obvious that music is a commodity. When it's hot it has value and when it's not it's practically worthless regardless of how free it is. Since hot music is so easy to come by the only thing left to sell is its quality. 48, 64, 96, 128, 160, 192, WAV...take your pick. 7 models fo music just like 7 models of anything else. Oh...and for anyone out there thinking that all these models are still downloadable...your right but just leave it up to the marketing and advertising folks to fuel peoples fears into making sure they have a pristine copy. I mean they do it with everything else out there. The recording industry may not make the gobs of money they used to make but I am sure they won't starve either. Just my 2 cents. Hedghog

  56. Re: Toronto by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    I call bullshit. You say "I pay nearly 50% of my gross income in taxes." and yet you can't afford a car?

    here's a 1991 Toyota Corolla for $300.00 right here in Montreal.

  57. Re:Use of the word 'Man' by PureApple · · Score: 1

    :) Fair enough. The point of gender non-specific language and my post was to make sure that the contributions of women, and non white males are not overshadowed and made invisible by their absence in discourse. As you say, "women have made every bit as much or more contribution to our culture as men" and many people wouldn't doubt it, but don't believe that everyone feels that way; there are a lot of mysogynists out there who _would_ invalidate a woman's contribution to culture, and it is only a fairly phenonmenon where an assumption otherwise is (may be) the norm.

    Regards,

    PA.

  58. Thesaurus by Workaphobia · · Score: 1

    Eighteen occurrences of some variation of the word "criticise". Eighteen. Insert jokes about DRM'd thesauruses.

    "I say, Jeremy, isn't that Reginald B. Stiffworth, the young, upstart chap who's been touting the merits of the Recording Industry's Failed Digital Strategy?"
    "Why, yes, I dare say that's the fellow."
    "Oh, let's criticise him!"
    "Oh Reginald... I disagree!"

    --
    Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.