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Palm Responds to the iPhone
Several people noted a NYT piece about Palm's response to the iPhone. Essentially, their response appears to be to hire a former Apple engineer and a couple other folks -- while also pursuing plans to perhaps sell the company. Nothing like a dual approach to the problem.
All in ones are the future. Palm had to see this coming.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
Somehow I get the impression that the iPhone's future... destiny, if you will... is already determined, and anything Apple's competitors might do at this point is more or less irrelevant. Nothing is going to steal the iPhone's thunder if it turns out there actually is a market for it. And if there isn't... it'll sink without a trace, as will any rivals.
As cool as I think the iPhone is, I'm currently leaning toward the second option. Too expensive, too little demand.
Palm has been out of the game for too long. They've been delivering high priced phones with less features (still no wifi in their treo lineup!). Windows mobile, which is an inferior OS to palms, has a greater market share due to Palms ignorance.
Whether you like or dislike Apple or their products, Apple is a catalyst for change. Personally I applaud Apple's entry as it may encourage all phone makers to reevaluate their UI. The UI on my phone sucks but they all equally suck.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Not only is it too expensive and not all *that* much better than some other smartphones out there, but the decision to lock in to one mobile provider is probably the one thing that will doom it to failure. Looks like a great toy, but far too expensive but as for me personally there is no way I'd switch to Cingular. Bad, bad experiences with them in the past. I doubt many people will rush to change providers just for a high priced toy. There will be a limited market within Cingular's existing customer base, and some Apple fans who will switch just because it's from Apple, and that is it.
It'll only be destiny if they make it right, nobody but business clients are going to pay 500 dollars for a phone, UNLESS it has mp3 capabilities and big storage like the ipod does, but it's gonna be hard to cram a phone and decent sized hard drive into a small unit, and make all of this a quality product(apple has been falling behind on quality on the ipods). On top of that, only Cingular carries it? They're going up a hill, but I'm not going to damn them before the product even comes out. We will see.
Palm seems to be very proud of the fact that they hired an ex-Apple engineer, which seems rather silly considering that Apple has thousands of them. It gets better when you consider that ex-Apple in this case means that he last worked for the company about ten years ago. No story here, unless the subtext is that Palm OS is going to start looking like System 7
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
but all you can hear on their end is "can you hear me now...?" "good"
The original generic sig.
that he documents invited back again. join in. It can be you To join the I know it sux0rs, all; in order to go
Palm is dead. Over 2 years ago Palm sold its OS to the Japanese "Access" corp that makes so many Japanese phones and their most popular web browser. So Access could finish their long heralded "Cobalt" OS, and switch to a new OS which was Linux, under Cobalt (retained as just GUI and compatibility layer). They were supposed to release Linux (+ Cobalt GUI) phones last Fall, before anyone had heard about the (real) iPhone.
But they didn't. Just as Palm let the Blackberry come from behind and eat the market Palm created, Access has let PalmOS keep it from even reaching the market before Apple is eating it, without even a released product.
It's all too bad. The PalmOS approach, focused simplicity on tasks, designed as a tough peripheral, with the most natural interface, writing on the screen, was the right paradigm. Handled properly, it should have forced all computing, whether workstation, mobile, phone or mediaplayer, to "just work", adopting many of its friendliest innovations. Now that job, as usual, is up to Apple.
--
make install -not war
I must be the only one who doesn't want a cellphone combined with my PDA / mp3 player. You have to choose between a nice big and wide screen (a la the Palm TX) or a small sleek phone. I don't want to choose. I don't even have a cell phone, but I guess that makes me the only person on the planet in this group. In fact, maybe I'll be the only person left on the planet in the literal sense... when all you phone addicts die of brain cancer... mwa hahahaaa. :)
I went into a big box computer store recently, to buy a cable for a PDA I'm developing for. I was shocked; a few months earlier thre had been about twenty feet of counter space devoted to PDAs. Now there was zero -- just two shelves under the counter, maybe two feet wide, half for Palm, half for HP iPaqs. In its place was now twice the retailspace, devoted to iPod accessories.
While the industry had been busy competing to offer "updated" PDAs, Apple has kicked the entire lot into retail obscurity. They can't even, as entire industry, hold their own against fashion cases for the iPod Nano. Apple is a company that has carved out a niche by not only ignoring, but flagrantly defying industry "wisdom", which comes from a group of people far too focused on what each other is doing.
The problem, I think, is this: when the innovations are pursued on the basis of their low marginal costs, they tend to end up having marginal value too. Palm hit the innovation ball out of the park with their first generation PDAs. They scored a series of base hits with their upgrades through the Tungsten series. Palm has the customers and retail channel (for now); the sentiments quoted above say that they should use them to innovate within the bounds of the PDA or smart phone paradigm. But we have reached the point where the value of the next "PDA innovation" is not enough to get you on base -- not in a game where a base hit consists of a $200 retail purchase by a consumer.
The true destiny of the PDA is not to accrete laptop like capabilities. It is to become a cheap commodity. The world needs a Palm m505 for $19.99; not a Life Drive (just discontinued last month) for $399. That is the true meaning of convergence: PDAs have become marginal appendages to phones; their job is to sell phones.
The idea that PalmOS should become more like PocketPC and accrete new features only makes the situation worse. As the sales of PDAs plummet, both Palm and PocketPC will suffer, but PocketPC is destined to drop even faster.
The problem for a company like Palm is not that money cannot be made with a product whose fundametal retail value is destined to plummet. The problem is that money cannot be made with a conventional tech company culture, which is biased towards on stuffing as much features and functionality into a product as will fit. The best thing would be for Apple to buy a nearly moribund Palm for a song.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I don't really expect the iphone to become a big thing, and if it does it would just make iPod market drop... So I don't really think it would be great news for apple, I am no psychic so don't blame me if I am wrong.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
While I covet the iPhone for its beautiful hardware and interface design, as a phone it has some quite major shortcomings compared to the current top of the line devices. While it's true that this may not be important in the US mobile phone market, to succeed in Asia and Europe the iPhone will need to become a more capable device. Steve Ballmer had it exactly right: Apple's share of the phone market is currently zero and will remain that way for at least another three months. For all the hype around the iPhone, there's still the real possibility it could fail internationally if not at home. In contrast there are millions of Windows and Palm phones out there so I don't think Palm needs to panic just yet. Improve yes, panic no.
how many people get mugged for a cellphone?
If mugged, you could have the serial# (asin?) of the phone hotlisted and it would not be possible to reactivate it.. what's the point of mugging for a cellphone?
(now, in GSM europe- with sims and unlocking so possible, maybe)
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I'm not sure Palm has any reason to be worried. They have a proper operating system on which you can install third party applications and tweak things just about all you want. That puts Jobs' BS about locking you in for the "safety of the network" to shame.
Palm really kills me. The 650, 680, and 700 are really top end devices that are the equal or better of pretty much any phone on the market. They may not be the thinnest or have the best cameras, but the PalmOS versions have higher res screens with vibrant colors, decent native and 3rd party apps, and useful interfaces.
But you'd never know it if you don't already know what a treo is. I've go a 650 from sprint, my boss has as blackjack. Other than fit in a smaller pocket, the blackjack doesn't do anything the treo can't despite the nearly 2-year difference in release dates. And I'll trade the pocket aspect for the runtime as my Treo can go 2-3 days between charges despite frequent web access and heavy usage unlike the Blackjack's ~1 day heavy usage.
Have you ever seen a treo commercial? I haven't but I'll see fifty bajillion "Helo Moto/Razr/Red" commercials this week. C'mon, run something on CNN during the financial hour, for cris'sakes.
People crank about the lack of updates to the PalmOS. When was the last time you actually updated your Symbian phone? Heck, what percentage of users know what os their phone uses? PalmOS is not the easiest to code for? Fine. How does it compare to symbian? Or the motorola in-house OS? Oh wait, there's not many apps for Symbian because of network carriers locking phones and motorola will tell you to sod off if you don't want to jump through their hoops. Obviously it isn't impossible to code for given the sheer number of programs out there and the big draw items are as pretty as anything on Windows Mobile. (Documents to Go, for instance, is both pretty and a solid mobile Office app)
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
Palm REALLY needs to go back and unmake some really stupid decisions. I don't see how they can dig themselves out of the hole they're in now, except by playing up the Palm name and reselling other people's kit under it.
They did way better than I expected on the original ARM transition, but they totally dropped the ball on Cobalt (or whatever their next-gen PalmOS is going to be), and they've already tossed their original product in the wastebin - these days even Microsoft delivers better Graffiti emulation.
It's distressing.
The iPhone isn't going to stay on one carrier forever. Its just a start. Just like the iPod started out on the Macintosh and then later moved to Windows. On the other hand I disagree vehemently with your assertion that people won't switch to Cingular for the iPhone. They'll probably get at LEAST 5 million new users because of the iPhone.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
The problem, I think, is this: when the innovations are pursued on the basis of their low marginal costs, they tend to end up having marginal value too. Palm hit the innovation ball out of the park with their first generation PDAs. They scored a series of base hits with their upgrades through the Tungsten series.
Palm's own hardware has been going downhill since the end of the Palm III series. The Tungsten line were bulkier than the Palm V, cost more, and didn't really do more for most punters. For the folks who need more, the Handspring Visor would have been a whole new product *family*... and it was for a couple of years until Hawkins killed it with the Visor Edge and the Treo.
They should have keep the 68000-based family going in lower and lower priced hardware (ane I think you'd agree on that) and done whatever it took to keep Sony happy making high-end units and keeping the hard-core geeks out of their hair, while providing something like the Visor as a bridge: a basic unit that's consistent from generation to generation (like the iPod) to build an accessory market around.
The springboard module isn't that critical, long term... they could have transitioned to CF-Ie or a mini USB host connector (which would let them use everything from flash drives to iPods as preipherals, without making the base more expensive). But the add-on ecosystem that's grown around it is one of the things that's made the iPod such a success... it's a more certain lock-in than the iTunes store or Fairplay.
I've got a Treo 680 (probably the last ever PalmOS PDA) with an 8GB SD card in it. It plays music (and will stream from the net) and video. It also has full featured GPS navigation SW (TomTom - external GPS required) and the mobile version of Google Maps. It does SSH, FTP, HTTP, POP, IMAP, and more. It can work natively with popular document and spreadsheet formats and -- oh yeah, it's a phone too. I've got my entire company locator database (almost 10K records) at my fingertips.
I wish that M$ had not been successful in their endevor to destroy the Palm computing platform.
...if they call it the "Willy Waller 2007", we'll know it's going to be something everyone will want to drop like a hot potato. :-)
IPhone? UPhone? Diephone?
I refuse to purchase anything that is Apple.
Every time I hear about an Apple product, they remind me of Fisher Price. You know... the colorful, big, kiddy toys? The toy phones, computers, cars, etc... you buy for little kids so that they don't slobber over the real phone, computer... etc.
I'm not going to spend $500 on a Fisher Price toy for myself [or on anyone else]! BUT, I will/do spend that kind of money on the real deal: HTC! I just bought a black HTC Trinity [$600]. [400 MHz, GPS , Bluetooth, IR, WI-FI, 3G, EDGE, HSDPA, Quad band GSM, 2 Cameras [2mp], Video conference, A+ battery life, 2 GB min SD [4 GB after firmware update], Windows Mobile Etc...]
Fisher Price IPhone? No thanks, I'M A BIG BOY NOW!
-x3lite
Yes, but I don't have my camera on me every moment of the day, whereas I have my phone in my pocket every waking moment. I find that I have a lot of use for a camera on a daily basis, and it doesn't matter that the pictures aren't the best quality. It's the same story with other non-phone features of my smartphone - I use them extensively. Just because these features aren't useful for YOU, doesn't mean there's no market for them. This point gets made on Slashdot literally every time a phone article is published, so I'm surprised we're still having to have this discussion.
Which is exactly why no one IS saying they're "replacing" anything. The claim is that they "complement" your other devices by being always available in a pinch.
I love catching fanboys in a lie. First of all Apple doesn't break down iPod sales by model so you don't actually know what the most popular model is. Secondly, the nano doesn't cost $500.
The iPhone is going to fall on it's face and only people like you will buy one. Only you'll return it after a few days because you can't see the screen since it's covered in chocolate and cheeto fingerprints.
As someone who has stuck with Palm devices for about eight years now, I don't like that that's what the choices are, but I really think that's the way it is. Every time Versamail crashes my phone, (or even just tells me I have new mail, when I don't), every time Blazer crashes my phone, every time Keyguard causes my phone to stay on instead of off, every time I wish I had Python handy, or that my phone could deal with Japanese text, it's a clear reminder that Windows Mobile is the better system for this class of hardware. And then there's the prospect of actually writing apps for the device - I'm OK with going back to PilRC and compiling to M68K for simple things - but the process you have to go through to run ARM code on the thing is obscene. As a developer I find it to be an extremely distasteful platform now.
It's entirely possible for a system to embrace the classic PalmOS philosophies of simplicity and optimization for common tasks, and still be modern and well-fitted to the hardware it's running on. Little things like memory protection and pre-emptive multitasking aren't too much to ask for, right? WinCE in its various incarnations didn't exactly do that, though with each new release they got a tiny bit closer to that - adopting Palm UI ideas here and there, streamlining the process - hell, they've even got a "block character recognizer" that works just like Graffiti - you can get Graffiti on WinCE but not Palm - what a joke.
If Palm's response to the iPhone is to take PalmOS 5 and make it pretty, or add a little better multimedia support - well fuck them. I'm sick of them fixing the bugs on the front end of things (or not) and leaving the underpinnings to rot.
---GEC
I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
While you can't play modern games on a Pippin, you probably can play movies on it (not sure), and the Newton definitely still syncs with Mac OS X.
And by the way, most people don't care about installing third party apps, and you only need to tweek setting if they were wrong to begin with.
"Most people". Bleh. I use a Palm Tx, and have come to depend on 3rd party apps like Datebk6 and Bonzai. I know that I'm in a niche market, but surely *someone* can figure out how to make money off of us. There are other people out there buying and using tech other than iPod-wielding teenagers. And yes, I have an iPod too. But when the battery runs out, I don't have to worry about not being able to do actual work or make a phone call.
-G
www.pixelstatic.com
and Palm is hesitating to fix them. The following thread, which is being monitored by Palm execs to gauge if 'customers really are having problems with their Treo 700p phones' is over 20 pages long now and details the MAJOR problems with the 700p:r d=general&action=display&thread=1169731124
http://sjmcloughlin.proboards37.com/index.cgi?boa
The 700p is immensely frustrating to own. If you can, please mod up this thread to give the Treo 700p problems the publicity they deserve.
Palm imploded, got rid of their talented engineers, stopped product development, and went into milk-whatever-revenue-stream-we've-got mode.
They've now painted themselves into a corner where the best thing PalmOS has got going for it is the vast array of Palm apps, and the worst thing going for them is their ancient patched up, buggy, impossible to develop for OS.
Palm has pissed off developers - lots of my favorite apps are no longer being developed or supported - many don't even have an official webpage). No good development environment for you.
Palm has pissed off users - no bugfixes for you, well okay... maybe *ONE fix*. No upgrades for you. No new non-treo products for you. No decent browser for you. No multitasking for you. No 802.11g wireless for you. Want a new feature? You'll need to buy a fractionally different product to get it.
I sincerely hope Apple eats Palm's lunch. I even hope that Microsoft copies apple's phone UI and makes Windows Mobile a decent OS. But, palm... you've let me down on so many levels for so many years... I don't need your redesigned icons or redesigned splash screen on the Palm desktop software. I don't need a new point version of versamail. I don't need Palm OS 5.4999999999. I don't need a new color on a treo. I don't need a battery with less battery life.
I'm glad you hired an ex-Apple developer. I'm sure that your ex-Be developers are hungry and will eat him up.
See that icon at the top of the page?
It's a Palm V/m500/m505 style palm. It's less than a centimeter thick. It weighs nothing. It's got a great, crisp LCD screen - the kind that doesn't emit a piercing shriek like the Tungsten models do. The kind that runs forever. But it's not color! Oh no!
Palm needs to release a modern update to that device. Something apple-nano thin. Something fast, with a nice big screen, and some Palm OS'y goodness. Or Linux. Or BSD. Who cares - just make it open and programmable. And Useful! I got rid of my T3 and went back to using a m500 I picked up on ebay for $30. Why? It's better tech. The new battery I installed lasts for weeks on a charge. It's light enough to carry around, and cheap enough I don't need to worry about a huge-ass carry case.
Instead, palm makes shitty devices that nobody wants now and do nothing well. I owned the original USR Palm. It kicked ass because it was thin, and light, and did what it did very well.
Palm, in it's current incarnation, deserves to die a firey market-driven death.
Make a thin device that's a modern PDA. NOBODY HAS DONE THIS YET. Yes, it's HARD to make things that thin. That's where you're going to make your money. On the form factor.
You don't need a multi million dollar marketing team to tell you that. They tell you the type of crapola that results in the current "lifedrive" garbage.
I watched HP die - they made great devices that knew who used them - like the HP48 and HP200LX - and they turned their back on the engineers, when the people at the top no longer used the products. I think the same thing has happened to Palm, and I'm very sorry to see it happen.
..don't panic
No, really, I'm sure this is just thrilling news. I mean, beyond the whole look and feel thing, who knows, maybe there's someone out there who thinks that Palm will, y'know, finally sync properly with the Macintosh, but I'm not holding my breath. I've given Palm plenty of chances, but it's extremely unlikely that they'll ever see another dime of mine.
I was a relatively early adopter of Palm (1996). I even bough US Robotics stock. All the while, though, I was always amazed how they managed to fuck Mac users over left, right, and center. Everything from not being able to use half of the programs on the installation CD, to having to buy a serial cable adapter, to never being able to sync well (unless one paid for third-party software that took over 2 years to get OS X versions going).
A few years ago I gave up on Palm and started using an iPod as a PDA. No, I can't do input on the fly, but it's good enough for looking up contacts and appointments. And once the iPhone lets you once save input, I'll have the PDA that Palm should have been back in 2002.
The funny thing about the IPhone is that if any other company were making it, Slashdot would be all over them. You would see quotes like: I got my cell phone to make phone calls, not to listen to music, take pictures, or play games. Just make my cell phone work well at what it is supposed to do: make phone calls.
They want how much for a &^(&ing cell phone???
On top of that, it is only going to be under one wireless carrier. How is that good for the consumer?
Please, Slashdot, pull your head out of wherever it is stuck and despise the IPhone as much as it deserves. Don't let the word "Apple" blind you.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
There are like five or six of you.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
Cobalt failed because Palm hired a well known functional psychotic, one David N. Schlesinger, as the engineering manager for the project. Schlesinger spends nearly 24/7 engaging in puerile and putrid, vicious flame wars with other mentally ill bloggers and usenet relics ; so its no surprise he was not able to get a product launched on time. Add to that the fact Schlesinger considers himself some kind of magicallly mysterious real life 'Harry Potter' (he maintains several blogs and websites devoted the infamous Satanist Aleister Crowley) and you have a real recipe for disaster. And disaster it was. ACCESS has Schlesinger globe trotting now, giving product demos. He does less damage that way. At least they had the sense to wake up and skim one turd out of their development cesspool!
Palm's real response is they are waiting for a new version of windows mobile before they do anything.
When Palm started favoring windows mobile over its own palm OS it was over.
Sure they would make some sales to the corporate sector that need to see everything stamped with windows on it, and as a result cut into blackberry teritory, which is what they wanted anyway. But now they are in no where land. Not as dominant as blackberry and not as inovative as they once were. Just another phone company.
How much longer before they sell the name and what little tech along with it.
If I was anyone looking for a total gadget/cool phone in the next few months I would be waiting for an iphone.
If buissness needs make me carry a device then I probably have a blackberry and dont see changing except for a newer blackberry in the near future.
What a shame.
Palm and other handheld makers had to know Apple was coming, but I guess they didn't expect them to be bringing the Unix.
... iterated on, but in a very responsible fashion the way you take care of the water reservoir.
... they just have to do the UI. The browser for the PlayStation3 doesn't even have JavaScript, although its CSS support is better than Explorer. Apple's WebKit is full spec, including all of CSS 2.1 and the very best JavaScript/AJAX/DOM stuff and all the security.
If you are a hardware maker, you have to do the lowest level of the software also. It is the least you can do when all the low-level software is free. When Unix itself is designed for portability. When you can pay $0 to get a core OS and Web browser and Web server going on almost anything that you build. When you can build on top of that in so many ways without locking yourself into a particular hardware path such as antique CPU or strange memory architecture. It is for your benefit and the user's benefit. Firefox isn't just free to download on your MS Windows, it's free to include it on the hardware you build, ready to run. Even calendaring, which was Palm's "killer app" in their heyday, is now a network application. Palm doesn't need an API they just need to be the best handheld Web browser on the market first and foremost.
The cheaper it gets to make chips the more that hardware is like software used to be, coming and going all the time. The more expensive it gets to make software, the more sophisticated it gets, the more it is like hardware used to be, solid and unchanging
The most important bits in the iPhone aren't in the CPU, they are in the 500 MB of OS X that is on there. The CPU could change next year but it will still be OS X on future iPhones. The things that make the iPhone have iPhoneness are applications of OS X. If the state of the art in handheld CPU's 10 years from now is quantum and impossible to see with the naked eye, it is likely Apple can build an iPhone out of that in a few months because all they have to do is recompile all the software on whatever new hardware they make. The new device may have nothing in common at all with today's iPhone hardware, but it will still be an iPhone just like today's iMac appears to be the same as the one from two years ago however inside you have a difference CPU architecture, different firmware, different low-level disk partition format. None of Apple's customers even noticed the Intel transition. How can a hardware vendor give up that freedom when technology moves so fast? Who would have predicted a few years ago that Intel would release a line of 2 GHz CPU's with 128-bit vector processing and low power and heat requirements, matching all the things Apple liked about PowerPC and adding x64 compatibility also? Because of OS X Apple was able to jump on Core instead of watching it happen. The Core spec reads like "PowerPC G6" it is exactly what Apple the hardware vendor wanted but they could only get it because they maintained their own core OS.
AppleTV also runs OS X. They can do a Web browser on there anytime that will be 10x the browser of anything else in the living room. The core software is all already on there
If I were a hardware vendor of any kind of computing device, I would have my own Linux distribution at the very least.
I would prefer a greyscale (even if it only gave 20% better battery). The PalmOS doesn't lend itself to highly functional devices since it isn't really a multi-process OS: you flip from one application to another, you don't actually get inter-program communication as you now need in an OS. But that works DAMN well on a reduced hardware device.
If Palm brought out the Zire with wireless and possibly bluetooth I would have bought that instead of a TX that I know I'm using less than 10% of its power with.
If the TX had perl built in as the OS scripting language (similar to AppleScript) then I may be able to use more of the power. If I could port GNUPlot too, that would increase how much of the system I could use. As it is, I would prefer a 16MB device working on a 100MHz processor but with good battery given PalmOS is running on it.
Its $500-600, in addition to cingular's voice/data plans. Have you SEEN cingulars unlimited data plans recently? Like $30-40 month! On top of a $30-40 month minimum voice plan! So an iPhone REALLY costs half a thousand dollars, and almost a hundred a month after that, to just use all features as intended. Compare that to say, a palm 700p/wx on sprint sero. A $250 smartphone, with unlimited data, 500 minutes, for $30/mo. Jeez. So not worth it for.. what, a fancy touchscreen? Its nice, but its not feasible.
do the math we're talking (mandatory 2 year contract!) THREE GRAND for an iphone and service.