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Linux Starts to Find Home on Desktops
WSJdpatton writes "The much-hyped notion that Linux would be a viable alternative to Windows to run desktop and notebook PCs for corporate users seemed dead on arrival a few years ago. But the idea is showing some new vital signs as companies look for cheaper alternatives to Microsoft products. The Wall Street Journal outlines several firms that are reaping savings and stability on their workplace desktops by rolling out Linux distributions. 'Auto maker PSA Peugeot Citroën last month said it will start using Linux on 20,000 of its workers' PCs. Novell Inc., which sells a version of Linux and is supplying it to Peugeot, says it has recently signed up several large U.S. financial institutions that are installing Linux on some employee PCs. Sales of Linux PCs are showing a really nice uptick at Novell, says Ronald Hovsepian, chief executive of Novell.' Not everyone is a convert, though. 'The State of Illinois recently consolidated its IT systems onto Microsoft software -- and has no interest in using Linux, says Paul Campbell, director of the state's Central Management Services department. "We don't have time for science projects in state government," he says.'"
'The State of Illinois recently consolidated its IT systems onto Microsoft software -- and has no interest in using Linux, says Paul Campbell, director of the state's Central Management Services department. "We don't have time for science projects in state government," he says.'
Apparently, they don't have time for security either...
I am severely impressed with Illinois' capability of assessing a situation so quickly & flawlessly. They already claim an annual cost savings of U.S. $2.1 million [proprietarily locked DOC warning] for five years ($10.5 million total) by using Microsoft's technologies! Why am I impressed? Well, they didn't even have to try anything else out to discover this! If they did, this case study doesn't show any of it. That document (if you read it) only makes claims but backs it up with nothing. I laugh at the very idea of it being titled a "Case Study."
You know, where I work, if you make a statement like "would save our company $10 million" you kind of need to make a business case. A large part of the business case is having micro experiments & demonstrations & data to present to back up your business case. In fact, it's a lot like the scientific process where you present facts that prove your argument. Granted, it's not required to be that rigorous but you usually have to get those to agree with you through this.
If I were a tax paying Illini and that document was the only thing persuading me that my government should use Microsoft products, I would bitch. That's just me, though. I think precisely what this Joseph Campbell needs to do is a "science project" as he calls it. For some reason they're avoiding a "business science project" and I'm really questioning his motivation for circumventing that.
My work here is dung.
I felt that one hit my balls.
I spend most of my time in bed, darling.
Even though I prefer Windows to Linux, it is not much of an endorsement when the uber-efficient State government endorses your products...
Brawndo: It's what plants crave!
""We don't have time for science projects in state government,""
That's why they never bothered to find out how so many dead people were able to vote in Chicago elections.
You know, where I work, if you make a statement like "would save our company $10 million" you kind of need to make a business case.
You don't work for the government, do you?
What is especially interesting here: despite the fact that Torvalds arrived in the US on an H-1b visa, on average, open source companies are much less likely to use that program than Microsoft and its allies. Why does Gates need that program so much when his strongest competitor doesn't? Personally, I think the program as it is now structured is corporate welfare-and subsidization of incompetence. If H-1b were curtailed significantly, Linux would be moving onto the desktop faster.
Well, they may very well be saving money vs. their old setup. But the real issue you failed to consider in looking at their analysis is how much money MS contributed to the campaign of the person who hired the person in charge.
So they replaced "IBM Lotus Notes, Novell GroupWise, and Microsoft Exchange Server, with multiple versions of those systems in use" with a single state-wide Exchange site license. Once you factor in the licenses, admin salaries, and redundant servers, you might get to $2.1 million a year.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
Not by default, and not as easily, but just as secure.
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I dual boot Ubuntu Edgy Eft with Gnome and Beryl. I can play WoW with it, listen to my mp3s with it, surf the web with it, watch YouTube with it, read/write email with it, do office stuff etc...the only two things I'm not doing with Linux yet are watching DVDs (I tried that earlier tonight and had some weird problems) and using my webcam...and the latter is only because I haven't bothered to install the drivers yet.
I haven't completely weaned myself off XP yet, but I'm working on it. I advocate Ubuntu though to anyone who wants to find out for themselves that desktop Linux, even though it may not have been in the past, is now a genuinely viable reality.
This could explain why the version of Ubuntu I'm running (Feisty, the development branch) has had (I think; I'm at work at the moment) an extra control panel added which is HP-branded, specifically for their printers. It seemed strange at the time but if HP printers require some crazy non-standard software I guess that makes sense.
I checked first with the Microsoft Ministry of Trvth for an official position paper on the subject. I am now more confused than ever but I still remain an unmoved, unclean, unconverted unbeliever.
I believe that Microsoft is more of a Customer based experiment than anything else. Microsoft goons have already brainwashed him. Otherwise i would have to severely doubt his intelligence
Attitudes like these are surely regrettable. No wonder the USA, once the champion of innovation and skill is way behind Asian countries.
If I were this man's boss, I'd simply ask him to withdraw that statement. I even wonder whether he's on Microsoft's payroll.
I've dual-booted for a long time, but it's only been recently that I started spending more time in Linux than in Windows. (And the shift was both dramatic and quick. In a single day, I went from less than 20% of my time spent in Linux to over 80%.) This is mostly due to the proliferation of Web 2.0. The latest version of Exchange's Webmail means that I no longer need to use Outlook, and Open Office is a more than adequate substitute for Office. There are a few internal web-apps that claim to require IE, but Greasemonkey has been letting me repair the worst of them. (BTW, I would love to have a way for User Agent Switcher to recognize certain URLs as needing a special string, instead of me getting an error page and having to change the string manually.)
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Really? It does. That's cool.
;-)
I don't mean to single out HP as the culprit here. I think my problems were a combination of cups, hal, and HP. I didn't keep the printer on all the time, so I think the USB target was moving. On top of that, I never quite figured out how to solve the battle between A4 and 8.5 X 11. A different driver seemed to help.
Now it prints, but cups gets back a "Pen Mismatch Error". Even though it is a laserjet.
So it isn't just HP. Also, kudos to the crew working on the printers. There are so many of them out there. Also reverse engineering the drivers can't be easy either.
Glad to see companies like HP stepping up to make this a little easier.
Such cynicism! Policticians aren't swayed by money, are they?
The state workers probably demanded the state implement MS. They wanted the extra break time during reboots.
I've never believed that linux would take over the desktop market, but now that exist distributions that may grandmother can install and mantain by herself and with corporations and governments pushing it more and more, every incentives for non-nerd people to adopt linux are in place.
As a windows System Admin (although I run Ubuntu personally), I can finally say that Linux is starting to get there, albeit slowly. I would definately say that linux is ready for a corporate IT envrionment.
It's still going to take a bit of time before it's fully ready for the home desktop though. I use 802.11 wireless as a perfect example of that - amongst the 'warm and fuzzy' distro's (SuSe, Ubuntu, Mandrake, Lycoris), I have yet to be able to set up a system where there wasn't a fairly significant amount of rigmoral to get something as simple as wireless with basic encryption running. It wasn't really 'hard' for me to get the wireless running, but in each case, it required editing of text files, and typically no less that 7 or 8 CLI entries. Linux has come a long ways, even in the past 2 or 3 years. I think Ubuntu is a great example of a good, easy to use OS. However, there's still a few dark and nasty corners of Linux which need polishing before it's ready for the masses. And let's not mention games and brand name apps which only run under windows.
Overall, it is exiting to see and watch. For the first time ever in the past few months, I've been able to recommend Ubuntu to begginner and novice users, as an easy-to-use alternative to Macs or Windows, with a straight face.
Unnecessarily subsiding a monopoly using taxpayers money, could well be considered fraud.
Let's not ask why he never looked at alternative suppliers in his current role.
Where's the scientific data to support that claim? Where are the case studies?
In light of this guys comments and history, IL residents should complain to their governors office. I'm sure Campbell would happily consent to an audit to ensure everything is above board.
It was acutally "We don't have time for science in state government"
Some settling may occur during posting.
My blog
Taxpayers don't have a say in every purchasing decision the government makes.
Why the hell shouldn't we? As far as I'm aware of, the govt is using our tax dollars to pay for it right?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
Looks like they avoided all that pesky Due Diligence, too.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
no, they are using corporate kickbacks. your tax dollars go to pay for the stuff that the corporations don't pay taxes to support.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
What interface are you referring to then?
The biggest drawback to Linux is that it requires a modicum of intelligence to learn. God forbid anyone should have to expend effort in an attempt to learn something new these days.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
I have the exact same problem with Windows. Every time I try to hook up an HP printer or scanner, it fails. When I try to hook it up to linux, it just works. Even when I get things to work on windows, they just stop working after awhile and I have to reinstall everything. My favorite is that Windows XP only supports a single USB scanner at a time.
I also like how you install the Gimp but don't get any printing support by default so have to install Gimp-print later. (I think that may have even required unmerging and remerging the Gimp proper... it's been a while.)
What sort of image program doesn't have printing support out of the box?
While perhaps not the richest or largest state in the union, Illinois still has an economy nearly the size of the Netherlands and can afford to throw money away on Windows. The rest of the world, meanwhile, will continue to innovate with OSS and leave the US with bloated, expensive systems to maintain
1: buy MS software
2: decide to do a "case study" on "total cost of ownership"
3: recieve massive discounts from MS.
4: publish the difference between 1 and 3
everybody wins!
"Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
Talking about freedom isn't going to fly when making a business case though. Freedom is a great reason to use FOSS, but if you want to get your boss adopted, you have to frame it the right way. Instead of talking about "freedom" as a concept, you ask him how he feels that Microsoft could change their software and make you lose your data, with no way of getting it back. Or, in my case, when evaluating a proprietary product, I could say "Well, this open source one does everything we need, its free, and the big bonus is that if we run into problems with it, we can take that source and work around it. If we use proprietary product X, we'd have to beg them for features." This is actually something I argued.
To be quite frank, software freedom is kinda an out-there idea for a lot of people not closely associated with FOSS or computers in general. Dropping that on their lap is likely to put them off. If you can frame it in a way that illustrates exactly how it benefits them without bringing all the emotional baggage that typical FOSS screeds carry, then you will be a lot more successful.
Thats why people talk about cost a lot. Its a very effective trojan to get FOSS into businesses.
I have a problem on Ubuntu Edgy with my Laserjet 2100. It does not align properly. I've been too lazy to look up the alignment info, because it's not really that important. But it is very stupid. The system claims to know the kind of printer I have. It recommended a driver for the device. Why is it not printing on the page?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
True, but I really doubt the government cares about "the freedoms of software." For them, the bottom line is the important thing.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
Because we elect the government officials to do those things for us. They can't take the time to consult the plebs on every thing. What you do, if you feel they are betraying your trusts, is you get a recall vote going and dump their ass on the street. If the position is an appointed one, recall the elected official who has hiring/firing authority over the position if they do nothing. If you can't get the signitures to do a recall, then the rest of the citizens don't agree.
That's true. I have installed Debian on my grandpa's computer last friday, and another three Debians at my school today.
More Debs coming, there are still almost 15 machines left! ^_^
seeing as how science projects rarely make time for state governments.
perhaps the linux community needs to reach out. you know what might do the trick is yet another repackaged ubuntu distro that caters to some cultural minority. maybe you can call it illinibuntu or just dabuntu.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
You choose free software because it gives you the freedom to use your computer the way you want.
I want to use my computer as a point-of-sale workstation that is robust. Free software can't help me with that. What you're saying is only true if you can find an app that does what you need it to do.
I don't respond to AC's.
don't have time for science projects? with the savings to a linux solution, he could afford to hire all sorts of "scientists". god what a mind set. so much for Illinois...
According to this, the office was a scandal. If anything, it's an example of how not to do things.
Where there's corruption, expect M$ to be crammed down your throat.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I use XP at work, all day long, and i just gave Vista a swing on my MacPro via parallels last night.
Wow. I was so lost, it wasn't funny. Vista and, from the screenshots, Office Vista... whatever... are going to require 100 pounds of retraining per person at any corporation.
Things are in the wrong place, the menus have all vanished or mysteriously moved to the right side of the window, except now some of them are text and some of them are icons.
I have a hard time believeing that if you can get your head wrapped around Vista and Vista Office that you can't get your head around Ubuntu. I just don't believe you. The differences may be less stark between 2000/XP and Ubuntu and XP/Vista. And i'm not even using Aqua... errr... Aero. I've even gone to Windows classic mode - and i'm still totally lost in Vista.
Fear, laziness, and stubbornness are the reasons IT nerds won't even consider Linux.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Companies choose to use/buy software that helps them make money (or loose less in the case of government), not put them back in the stone age. Where is an Exchange killer? Excel killer? Sales Territory Mapping software? TI OMAP SDK/Emulator kit? Blackberry Desktop Manager? Yeah, thought so. PS, I used Debian for 8 years during college, until I realized I couldn't do anything productive with it when I started making monies.
And where do you get the notion that Groupwise will not be supported under Linux? Novell already runs most of its company under Linux - do you think they use Exchange?
Another Microsoft nitwit.
These clowns don't even bother to try thinking for a second before posting this nonsense. They don't even care how stupid it makes them look. All they care about is getting their licks in for Microsoft.
Here's an idea - why don't you go up to Redmond, find Bill's office and just suck his dick for a living. I'm sure Bill will pay you well. Oh, wait, I forgot. Microsoft shills don't need to be paid to be shills. Being submissive to Bill is all that is required.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
People don't want to mess around making every little thing work. Personally, I was sick of Windows, and Vista finally made me decide to switch to something else. I tried Ubuntu 3 or 4 times and Fedora Core. They were great at 'almost' working, but it seemed like there were far to many steps to get to have the machine fully functional. I use my machines for media hubs, and there were so many hoops to jump through to get everything to work in Linux, I just gave up. I bought a Core 2 Duo Imac, and I'll probably never touch Linux or Windows (at home) again. Unix based systems don't have to be hard to use, Apple proves that. If only the distros could eliminate some of those hoops.
Reasons
1) It's free. You're not shelling out big bucks for an operating system or the programs that go along with it.
2) Support is fairly simple to find. Most, if not all, Linux distros I'm aware of have a help forum of one kind or another.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
> I run into strange things like not being able to print out a landscape PDF in portrait
Let me guess, you have Ubuntu and you only tried the default PDF program to print it? It has a bug, which is fixed it current svn/cvs version, but meanwhile you wait it to arrive to your Ubuntu, install and try xpdf. It is not as pretty, but printing works with it.
Either hire a better administrator OR just suck it up and be a windows shop.
The simple fact is that lack of skills in your employees is a problem you have to deal with in many fields, either hire better ones, train the ones you got OR do without that skill.
It is the reaon you see those semi-cars. They are small trucks drivable with a car license that have a setup similar to a semi (those big trucks with a tractor element and the eh cargo element (am I dazzling you with my tech speak yet?)) because transport companies find it impossible to hire enough people with truck licenses (and are unwilling to train new ones). They offer more cargo space then a van wich in some business is more important then their low weight limit.
Linux will have to be a choice similar to that, you can forget getting your nephews 12 year old kid to configure it, you are going to have to move your business software of Excell and you are going to have to hire someone who in 2007 isn't still baffled by setting up a printer.
Oh am I too harsh? Well, I am so sorry but for the last decade I seen nothing but people come up with one excuse after another why Linux is so hard, while at the same time I get those things working without a sweat. Am I that brilliant, are you that stupid OR are you just making up excuses.
Use windows, but don't try to put the blame on linux.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Yup, in state government they're too busy making the DMV a model of efficiency to save the taxpayers money. Spare no expense.
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
I dunno, it seems to me that the combination of Microsft Windows and Office is one huge entomology project.
-- Alastair
Even though it is a laserjet. ;-)
Funny! My Okidata LED printer runs flawlessly with Linux as an HP LaserJet 4. Of course, just about any LaserJet compatible printer on earth should run like a champ with the HP LJ 2P driver. If your printer is a LaserJet, I'd start with the 2P driver and move up from there.
Now inkjets are a different matter entirely. It's a safe bet that any printer that costs less than the ink that goes inside it is not going to work with Linux, or OSX for that matter. These printers have no on-board processing ability and must rely on software for them to print.
Scanners have been easy as well, provided they are not bundled on top of an inkjet printer. I've had no trouble making both SCSI and USB scanners (usually Epson and Microtek) work with Linux without issue. Of course, this was back in the day when SANE had to be manually configured. I'm sure it's much easier nowadays.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Nothing you wrote contradicts what I said. If there waws proper POS software in the OSS domain, you would choose it, because it grants you the freedoms to use it how you want (say add feature, or find additions others wrote, etc).
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Neither of which applies to your usual consumer. Most people get Windows with their computer.
As far as support goes, the minute you tell them to go to a forum, you're asking them to put more effort and thought than they're willing to. Most of the regular users I know don't even like calling Dell for support. Posting on forums is a significant barrier in terms of effort and psychology. Most people feel like they aren't talking to a real person over forums, or that a forum post is less reliable than a "trained Dell tech".
Plus, volunteer help on a forum isn't obligated to help you. I've posted before on forums for help, and gotten no responses. If its not reliable, why should people rely on it?
If they're spending anything, it's remaining a secret:
x tName=microsoft&NumOfThou=0&txt2006=Y&submit=Go!
http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search_hp.asp?t
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
And when he asks you if you have specific examples of this, what are you going to point him to?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
I've seen this issue on my printers (all HP). It always has to do with page size.
SuSE & openSuSE default to A4. I'm in the USA, so all the paper I buy is letter size. Change the default page size, and this issue vanishes for me.
I've had this on a color Laserjet (forgot the model number), and a selection of HP PSCs and All-in-Ones.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
What if Chicago donated the time of all the workers painting "Richard M. Daley, Mayor" on every garbage can in the city? That could free a lot of time.
how to invest, a novice's guide
If I said I was capable of customizing a Hyundai so that it outran a Maserati Bora, would you say "Hyundais can be just as fast as Maseratis". Yes? Would you be right? Sorta. But not where it counts
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Best argument for Linux yet
We have the best government that money can buy.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
The rule of thumb in Illinois government it to spend the most money on the worst product, to create as many jobs for unqualified people and claim that the state is the best due to the amount of money spent.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Depends on how buggy your laptop's bios is. MS has access to all the manufacturer's work arounds, and the Linux community does not. Reference implementations, or close to reference implementations work well, as do models with a lot of marketshare (ThinkPads, Dells).
My MacBook Pro suspends/resumes just fine using suspend to ram.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Well, if Illinois would have checked... It looks like Groupwise already handles Linux. No transition on their part. Boy, it does NetWare and Windows Server also. Amazing. Short of simply going tits up Novell will be supporting Groupwise 7 for a few years. Pleanty of time for Illinois to run a few science experiments.
GroupWise 7 server requirements
32-bit/x86 processor or 64-bit/x86 processor running in 32-bit mode
Any of the following server operating systems, plus the latest support pack:
Novell Open Enterprise Server (NetWare or Linux version)
NetWare 5.1, NetWare 6.0, or NetWare 6.5
SUSE® Linux Enterprise Server 10
Windows 2000 Server or Windows 2003 Server
eDirectory(TM) 8.7 or later
ConsoleOne® 1.3.6 or later
Well, most of us who use linux use our computer as a computer. Not a t.v., playstation, or whatever.
Good reasons to use linux, just off the top of my head and in no particular order:
1. Able to run on old hardware
- Fewer hardware upgrades cost you less money
2. Freely downloadable, freely upgradeable.
3. No phone calls to MS to prove you bought the old software you are trying to install on new hardware.
4. Proper user accounts (everyone can have their own account, so they don't mess with your stuff)
- A virus/trojan/worm/"oops what happened" won't destroy your basic installation.
5. You won't have to reinstall linux because you connected to the internet for 30 seconds without antivirus software.
6. Free trial as Live CD's.
It's not about productivity, obviously:
"Both the state and the public are concerned about security, and we did not feel comfortable taking on the risks associated with open source software at this time,"
It's obviously more about the fact that the baddie terrorists can get into your computer if you use F/OSS
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Those are some excellent reasons, but lets frame them in the context of a common user. Most people don't run into 3. Its not very common. Same with 1, because most people just get the OS with their hardware. The killer apps for the common user are 4, 5, and 6.
Personally I'd say, "I can set up your computer to use this new software. It does all the things that your current computer does, but it will work better and you won't have to get someone to clean your computer every month. Plus you get free upgrades. I'll give you a free trial, and you can tell me if you like it."
My point with the original question was not flamebait, but to point out that its very very important how you present it to other people. They don't care why you use Linux, they want to know how they benefit. And what is obvious to us geeks is not obvious to them. Just rattling off why you use Linux isn't going to do a bit of good, unless you can present it as a clear benefit to them.
Saying something along the lines of "The biggest drawback to Linux is that it requires a modicum of intelligence to learn. God forbid anyone should have to expend effort in an attempt to learn something new these days," is not going to win you converts. You have just insulted your potential users, and implied that your concerns are more important than theirs.
[i]In fact, it's a lot like the scientific process where you present facts that prove your argument.[/i]
Have you RTFA? They told they don't have time for scientific process. They are in a hurry.
"One particularly scathing audit, released just as Campbell was taking over the agency, found CMS had paid improper expenses to contractors, failed to document the cost-cutting it claimed to have achieved and sometimes allowed contractors to start working before having a signed deal."
E CTOR_ILOL-?SITE=ILROR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAUL T
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IL_CMS_DIR
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
I'm not normally the RTFM type, but using a package manager to install software instead of downloading it would be one of the first things someone learns when they read the instructions.
This space intentionally left blank.
The MS tax doesnt apply to large purchasers
1. any OEM will sell you blank PC's if you buy in quantity
2. governments/corporations usually have site licences (not OEM licences), so it doesnt matter if it's MS or Redhat
"Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
I'm sure Joseph Campbell would have worthwhile advice on this subject. "Follow your bliss," perhaps, or maybe "God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
Tax dollars subsidized the infrastructure for telephone companies. Tax dollars subsidized the startup and growth of ISPs. Tax dollars subsidized the startup and growth of the .com boom. Tax dollars subsidized the infrastructure for the high speed internet.
Consumer dollars paid for telephone service. Consumer dollars paid for internet service. Consumer dollars bought the home hardware. Consumer dollars fed the websites and paid for the advertising banners on the websites.
The profit went into the pockets of the VPs/CxOs/and execs and, by proxy (insider stock trading tips), the politicians.
Create debt, maintain debt, keep people in debt, work those people until they die from debt. Of course citizens don't have a say in purchasing decisions. That would muck up the entire system.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
That's a pretty disingenuous statement. In reality, it doesn't necessarily let you use your computer any way you want. There's tons and tons of software that simply doesn't exist as OSS, so unless you're a professional programmer, you can't "use your computer any way you want".
I don't respond to AC's.
You can *choose* to learn to program and extend your environment.
In Windows you can do that too, for the most part, except where hidden APIs are involved. But more importantly, in OSS world, you can extend existing projects to do what you want better.
But don't think that the benefits of OSS are lost on non-programmers. Eventually some programmer/developer/etc will come along and extend/improve/fix things and non-progammers can benefit from that. As a non-programmer you're pretty much stuck using popular [or highly demanded] OSS software. But you're not legally forced into that situation. For instance, suppose you run a company, use some software [that is OSS] and it needs new functionality. You could hire a developer to add on to the OSS.
You'd save money since the developer has something to start with [as opposed to writing it all from scratch] and the resulting product is also freely licensed meaning you're free to use it sans royalties or upgrade fees [etc.]
If you used proprietary software, and the company went under, you're sunk. Worse, if they use proprietary undocumented data formats [largely the norm] you're doubly sunk.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
96,000 / 65,000 = 1.48 != 10
You run a business?
"Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
Since you are almost certainly referring to issues arising with MPEG protocols you are going to have to lay the blame at MPEG's feet. It's all about the patents.
Not much point in having a government if it's just going to act like a corporation.
http://www.illinois.gov/teledirectory/listagency.c fm?agencycd=416
That shouldn't be too hard. MS has introduced many incompatible versions of their software over the years. In fact, I inherited an entire file server full of .doc files when I moved to one job and when I tried to archive them I discovered no currently available version of word could open a significant number of them. OpenOffice, ironically, could open some of the files, for the rest we had to ebay an old copy of Word and then save them in newer formats. That incident by itself was enough for our company to standardize on non-proprietary formats and put a partial moratorium on Word as an internal tool.
The business case for open source and open standards, however, is a lot more compelling than just files becoming inaccessible. There are real costs involved with keeping an entire company standardized on some version of software and if the availability of that is determined by one company only and they routinely stop selling old versions you have to choose between committing to the unknown but substantial cost of maintaining that upgrade cycle, or moving to a format/software where you can take bids from multiple vendors and/or the upgrade path is guaranteed and free.
The money difference is only a factor whan you measure it against other factors. Performance, stability, etc.
Maynbe your MS DBA is getting screwed by you?
"I could care less about Open Source or Copyrighted Software."
I am sure the BSA will be glad to know that.
Did you take into account the money it will cost you if MS calls you up and demands you let them audit, or the tell the BSA you are a pirate?
It's not that uncommon.
OTOH, you are clearly a liar and do not run a business. . . or you 'run' your daddy's business.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
God forbid anyone should have to expend effort in an attempt to learn something new these days," is not going to win you converts. You have just insulted your potential users, and implied that your concerns are more important than theirs.
Reading this just reminded me of why techies aren't in marketing. At some point in most of our lives, we were probably ridiculed by someone who knew more than us about something we are interested in, or watched someone be ridiculed about something that could have also been aimed at us. We take that as a challenge, and go on to learn that thing. That's why we are nerds.
"They" aren't.
I don't go out of my way to try to convert people to linux. I tell people I use it, even my girlfriend is like "he's a PC user" in that "I'm a Mac user"-derogatory tone. I always reply with, "Yeah, but Linux not Windows".
that you have some HOT Debian on Debian action going on!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Intelligence nothing to do with it.Its specific knowledge.A complete moron given enough time will memorize it.
Its the difference between Vi and Notepad(or its replacements).Vi is more powerful,notepad is easier to use.
More people would use Notepad because there is zero learning time,and interface is extremely simple and self-documenting.VI requires reading manuals,memorizing dozens of shortcut keys,etc: all that to edit a text file.
Linux is composed of things like this.Graphical,user-friendly programs? They don't repair the flaws(e.g.Gimp).
Its a design philosophy which won't get popular outside the enthusiast camp.
If you needed to learn C++ to use a computer,internet as we know it would not exist.
How are they going to spend all those tax dollars in their budget if the software is FREE?
There's only so many $600 hammers a person needs.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
I guess Novell prefers to make vague statements about an "uptick" in Linux sales than share an example of a US firm widely adopting Linux on the desktop. It would be those kinds of examples that would make it harder for people to make ignorant statements about Microsoft saving them millions of dollars. If Linux doesn't suit your needs, just say so, but don't lie about how much money it's saving you.
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming. -Brian Kernigan
"Well, this open source one does everything we need, its free, and the big bonus is that if we run into problems with it, we can take that source and work around it."
Putting more work on your development staff is a good thing? Assuming you have one qualified in that language and system, of course.
One company I consulted for looked at various open source content management systems, and then paid about $50,000 for a commercial one. The commercial one had great documentation (most of the OSS systems REALLY sucked in that regard) and they offered paid support contracts and had a great reputation for service and fast turnaround for support issues.
Taking one of their developers off of a project and having him tinker around in some system he know's nothing about in an attempt to "work around" some problem is not what they call "a good thing".
I also know a few shops who've attempted to use OSS products and probably spent more time (and dollars) working on them and/or attempting to roll their own solutions than they would have spent simpy buying something.
From my perspective, OSS works best when you're so large you can afford to devote resources to it, or if you're so small and cash-strapped you have no other choice.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Hmmm, something doesn't seem right here....
Are you telling me that your MSSQL DBA is incapable of learning MySQL? It's not that hard, I did it when I was 19 from a single O'Reilly book and some testing. I once had to show an MS SQL DBA what indexes are, and how to use them, so maybe the barrier to entry as an MS DBA is lower than for other databases. Kind of like why you pay more for a C++ or Java developer than a VB developer. Maybe that's why you don't pay your MS DBA much money, he's incompetent?
Have you thought of asking your MySQL DBA if he can administer your MS SQL servers too? If he's worth his 96k, he can. By the way, you could never get a DB2 or Oracle DBA for 65k, does that mean that they are sub-standard to MS SQL as well? I think not. You get what you pay for. If you're happy with play toys you can pay a child to use them, if you want expert tools you need to hire experts.
http://www.mhall119.com
It took no additional work from our development staff. It worked as-is. The open-sourceness is a safety net, a way out if we ever get trapped by the functionality.
We pay for software if its what we need. Given two equal options, the one that gives us options in the fact of changing needs and possible failures is the one that is given more weight.
Well, who can argue with that illogic. You're right you win. I am humbled by you mental prowess. :)
I still believe the only chance for Microsoft is to go to a Unix base like Apple did. My prediction has always been that they will buy Sun and use Solaris as a base for future version of Windows. What does everyone else think? Would that change any ones opinion of Microsoft, or is it just ingrained in the Slashdot collective that only Linux is the answer?
Most non-Slashdotter's don't want to learn how to use a computer, anymore than they really want to spend time learning Word or Excel or Photoshop. What they want are letters or reports or photos, and to get their work done and get home in time for dinner.
A good tool is like a hammer. You pick it up, hit something with it, and then put it down and get on with what you're doing. Quick, easy, and intuitive.
If you have to take a class, read a book, and spend hours dinking with it, then it's just not a very good tool for the average person to deal with...
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Agency directors generally serve at the pleasure of the executive, don't they? This reflects poorly on Illinois' governor, who ought not to be giving away money. Make it known that he will be losing support due to this guy's stance.
Ubuntu also defaults to A4 (which should really be filed as a bug when it comes to a US-intended release.) But regardless I set both the page area and the page size to Letter and while it did change the extent to which it printed on the page, the print still begins about 3/4" too low on the page. I haven't tried since upgrading to Feisty alpha (just did that a bit ago) so perhaps this weekend I'll find that it works correctly.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
> "We don't have time for science projects in state government," he says
Neither should the voters of the great State of Illinois have any patience for ignorant state government employees who preclude any possibility of something that will, in the long term, inevitably pay off as an IT investment. Linux is anything but a science project. It is already in use in other governments throughout the world, much poorer than the Illinois state government. It is also in use by super-large corporations, here in the U.S. and worldwide.
Then again, I'm not in Illinois (I live in Washington), and I hope Illinois voters read this garbage and vote for incumbents who will not hire ignorant, incompetent government staff such as the one who made this statement, which in the end will end up costing the State of Illinois leaps and bounds beyond the cost of upgrading to Linux now.
Microsoft undoubtedly makes the best desktop applications (e.g. Office). They have yet to deliver on the best operating system. Vista just isn't it. The next best thing from Microsoft will be a UNIX-like operating system, with a Windows XP emulator, as Apple did with Rosetta for OS 9 on their new platform - OS X. Since supporting hardware initially is going to be a bitch, they can start with the most popular hardware up to a few years old. I know it sounds unrealistic, but what else can they do to renew their public image and instill the coolness they once had 20+ years ago?
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
...fascinate me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
My life is an open book ... up to a point.
Does it print correctly on Windows?
;-) and b) requesting replies to e-mail you in addition to the list.
If so, I suggest filing a bug report with HP; they have semi-official Linux support, and the issue is most likely in HPLIP, the HP Printing stack for Linux.
It's not the easiest way to get support for someone who is unfamiliar with mailing lists, but they do have HP personnel here: http://hplip.sourceforge.net/mailing_lists.html
Assuming this is a software problem, it would be nice if you could report it, so that someone from HP can fix it. This will probably take less effort for you than upgrading your distro, or, perhaps, they'll tell you, "Fixed in version XX, avaliable on YY distro."
If you choose not to subscribe to the mailing list I might suggest a) being very polite
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
That may be, but you can't really hold Windows responsible for HPs software.
The problem with that is that I get pretty much identical results (within 1/8" offset) using pxlmono as compared to hplip. That makes it seem more like a bug either in cups, or in the way Ubuntu Edgy implements it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This doesn't exactly produce a fantastic advert for Linux.
"Use Linux on the Desktop! It's great, except that some very basic desktop functionality has clearly had zero testing as IT DOESN'T WORK!!"
If people would actually fix some of the longstanding problems with linux on the desktop, instead of blaming microsoft for all of their problems, linux might actually see adoption on the desktop.
What I think is hilarious, is that when you mentioned something like "problems with linux" people will say something like "what problems?" or "that doesn't compare to problem x that windows has." Well obviously it does, because on the desktop people have made that comparison and chosen the competition...
Arguing for linux on the desktop is a process of denial, blame, and self righteousness that I have no interest in taking part in.
I agree, but Linux missed the Win98 upgrade window entirely. I hope it catches the tail end of the WinXP upgrade window.
Of four different Win98/ME computers I helped manage, only one (mine) is now primarily Linux-only, and one is about half-time Linux.
Case 1: mom, WinME, 500MHz Celeron. Usage was mainly AOL and basic digital photo album stuff. Linux could easily cover her hardware and application needs, but I couldn't wean her from the AOL interface. So we replaced WinME with a $550 Dell/Vista box. She's happy.
Case 2: girlfriend, Win98, 1.6GHz P4. Heavy Excel user. Semi-technical, and able to learn new things. I had her dual-boot Fedora for over a year. She used Fedora happily for browsing whenever Win98 was acting up (often). She was the most likely candidate for a switch to Linux. But she complained bitterly about OpenOffice usability. In the end, I had to upgrade her PC to XP. She's fine with paying $150 for the MS Office upgrade. For her, this is a good value. She also needs to edit PDF files, and I couldn't find a Linux replacement for the Adobe app she uses. Otherwise she was impressed with Linux stability, and didn't need much help to figure out basic web/email/office.
Case 3: a non-techie, older user, with Win98 on a 1GHz Duron. Like mom, she mostly uses AOL and photo albums. Like the other PCs, 98 has become unstable over time. I installed Ubuntu as a dual-boot for my own maintainance purposes, and she loves it because Ubuntu is totally stable and the system feels fast. She's still a little confused about how to find her files and get to her AOL mailbox. Learning new stuff is hard for her. She boots Ubuntu about half the time, still using Win98 to get to AOL or user her old photo album tool. My recommendation for her is to upgrade to XP, but she doesn't want to spend any money on this system. Ubuntu is making the difference in her case because of cost and ease of use, and her limited needs.
Case 4: Me. A programmer, Linux-only for years now. I occasionally miss gaming, and the other day my DSL went down and I remembered I had no driver for my softmodem. I had to boot 98 to get online. But Linux far outweighs the minuses for me.
Linux has allowed 2 of us to keep our old hardware. XP did that for one.
OpenOffice hitches nixed Linux for one.
Oddly, Win98's increasing cruftiness (rather than any other need) is what spurred hardware and/or software upgrades in all cases. Otherwise Win98 still meets almost all the needs of every user.
>someone who in 2007 isn't still baffled by setting up a printer.
IPP or LPD? How do I tell? Where's the entry for Samba? What's the queue name? How can I tell?
Why won't my HL-1440 work? What does it mean that it's not "network ready"? Why does the "network readiness" of the driver matter if all it does is take orders from the spooler? If I get another driver, how do I tell if it's network ready"? If this is all so impossible, why does it work from Windows?
Why exactly do I have to edit CUPS configuration files? Why are the entries I'm supposed to edit so poorly related to talking to a printer?
Tell me it's easy to set up a printer hanging straight off my USB port and I'm willing to believe you. Tell me I'm stupid, and, well, I'll draw conclusions you won't like.
Hmm... Odd.
:)
;-) Best of luck, and I know that this is, unfortunately, not the right kind of support to promote Linux on the desktop :(
Perhaps it is a PPD file issue, because both pxlmono and hplip will use the same PPD, no?
Still, I'd suggest going to the HP mailing list, just because this is the sort of semi-related issue that they will want worked out
If there is a distro-wide issue with Ubuntu's PCL6 support, it would make sense to make the Ubuntu HP maintainers aware, and I bet that they are reading the HPLIP lists.
Wish I could help you further, but without access to a printer that exhibits this problem, I' m stuck
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Not 5 years ago, I spent 15 minutes at the Libertyville DMV (NNW suburb) just watching the clerk wait for the computer to respond. I really hope you're serious about those improvements.
(IANAL)
You could pay people to work on OSS. Believe it or not but there are consulting shops that specialize in just that.
Bonus, their product usually falls under the same license [especially if it's GPL'ed] so your investment is protected in more than one way.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
you can spend 100% of your time in Linux and run Windows in a VM when you need it without shutting down Linux.
Exception - some Windows games which don't work so well on a VM.
Since I don't run them, I don't even bother with keeping a Windows drive for dual-boot anymore, I use that slot to run experimental OSs when need be.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Here's my theory in a nutshell: If more and more organizations embrace the Linux desktop in one form or another, there are twenty-thousand developers ready to step up and serve the needs of the user community. The real question is, how does a giant ad-hoc system -- y'all -- engender trust in this huge, anxiously waiting user-base? Redhat, Mandrake, Ubuntu, Suse, Debian, and other aggregators have done their part to create pretty packages for Linux, but is that enough?
What do corporations - especially that sad old hack Microsoft - have to offer this huge hungry population that Linux doesn't? Dell is taking a bold step in partnering with this large distributed community. What if they started contracting Linux developers? What if Dell started to look more like Apple: creating Dell hardware and making their own Linux flavor tightly integrated, and found it so impressive they started putting a Dell logo on the Linux desktop?
Seems to me this is what's about to happen. Dell is going to get into direct competition with Microsloth as an OS vendor. And the savvy Linux developer should be anxious to get involved.
-- thinkyhead software and media
They could probably get it for $1 and assuming SCO's debts. Which is only right, since they helped SCO incur them. Obsolete, of course, but even that is probably an improvement on the Vista Core. And since they had a version of Win4Lin, they even would have some legacy Windoze compatibility built in.
If I were in that position, I'd get a programming team to write a proprietary version of OpenBSD with as many members of the OpenBSD dev team as offering them LOTS of money would persuade to join the Dark Side, license VMware Server with an installed copy of XP on every box to handle legacy compatibility, (maybe even a 9.x and a DOS VM... because they can) and start porting Windoze apps to Win-nix.
That would give us all a dose of STFU about security and basically run everything anybody ever wrote for MS environments.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Actually, the machine I was installing the HP onto was a redhat fedora core 6. Are the HPLIP drivers included with this distribution that far out of date as to cause problems?
Thanks for the advice.
The main problems I've seen with printing in Fedora Core (now, I haven't used FC6, only FC5) are that system-config-printer doesn't always work right (because it's very outdated), GIMP-Print is very out of date at 4.2.7 (it isn't even called GIMP-Print anymore as of the 5.x series, it's now gutenprint), and CUPS is very out of date (1.2.4 in FC6, vs. 1.2.8 in many other distros). The PPDs they distribute are typically very out of date as well, and I usually end up having to download new ones from linuxprinting.org.
My blog
"In other news, Jerry Taylor, former Tuttle Oklahoma city administrator was recently hired to manage the State of Illinois' computing infrastructure. . . . . ."
Yes, you can pay, but that sort of falls under my first category, doesn't it? That you're large enough to afford to devote resources to it?
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
"Offtopic?" Talk about missing the joke.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White