Slashdot Mirror
Turkish Assembly Votes For Censoring of Web Sites
unity100 writes "CNN has some news about a recent development in Turkey where the Turkish assembly, totally out of line with Turkey's commitment to EU membership, has voted to have sites that 'insult to the founder of modern Turkey' censored from entire Turkish population. This, just about a month after the decision to censor YouTube was reached by the Turkish courts. 'On Thursday, lawmakers in the commission also debated whether the proposal should be widened to allow the Turkish Telecommunications Board to block access to any sites that question the principles of the Turkish secular system or the unity of the Turkish state -- a reference to Web sites with information on Kurdish rebels in Turkey.'"
Let's see how the EU responds to this. I wonder if they will do anything at all, or if they will be activ eabout it. I haven't follwed their actions much at all since I live in America, but I have hopes for it.
..question the principles of the Turkish secular system, and the unity of the Turkish state.
And I think the founder of modern Turkey is a turkey haha
Freedom of speech is pretty cool
I also question the principles of the American secular system, and i pretty much question the fuck out of everybody I see.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Actually, I take that back. China & the US would like to have free trade going into Europe, but not coming out. That would be silly.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Attaturk seems to have been one cool dude. What other nation of Muslims has in its Constitution that Islam must be kept out of the government? They owe that constitution to the man.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I know the US has some problems with free speech, but what the hell is wrong with Europe lately? For instance, Germany will soon be attempting to reintroduce legislation into the EU banning swastikas and Holocaust denial (Source: BBC). You can't have selective free speech!
People are getting confused. You should tolerate the idea of free speech; you don't have to like what people say, you don't even have to listen. It's the right to speak, not the right to be heard or listened to.
These laws, including the Turkish positions, would be like if the US suddenly enacted laws saying that no one can speak of the Confederacy in a positive light and made it illegal to say the Confederacy actually won. Everyone knows they didn't, but people still say it. Everyone with an IQ over 20 just laughs at them, though. I'd just laugh & ignore at anyone who denied the Holocaust -- you should too, Europe (Germany, Turkey, et all).
Surprisingly, at least in the Holocaust issue, England is one of the few countries that put up a fuss last time it came up (2005). The same England that's hell bent on monitoring every street corner. C'est bizarre.
I know it'd be really hard to perform an unbiased study on the subject, but I'd really like to know, once and for all, if censorship is a good thing for humanity. Such a study should, of course, be targetted at all sorts of facets of the basic question and not just the one; questions such as "at what point is censorship good and where is it bad for society."
In "free society" we generally abhor censorship. What people are afraid if is pretty obvious: that people will form opinions in opposition to current leadership. But are there societal health benefits? Is there something actually good about it?
Yes Way cool to kill 900.000 Armenians, lest we forget. I would rather have a few extra mosques.
Help fight continental drift.
Ataturk is so fat that when he gets into an elevator it has to go down.
I actually wouldn't have a problem with this if international emmigration were within the means of the average Turk, and as long as the government is honest about their censoring. Then, if people want to live in a country with such pride that insulting sites are censored, great, move to Turkey, but if you find government censoring onerous, fine move elsewhere. A global version of the US idea of "states rights" . Of course freedom of travel and emmigration is the troublesome key factor.
We are all just people.
Mustafa Kemal (ataturk) was a man who was sending youngsters who have stood up to him in any matter political or social, to get university education abroad in europe, out of his own pocket.
Read radical news here
Turkish government tries to shut up everybody who is talking about Armenian genocide happened at the beginning of the century when Turkish army killed millions of Armenians.
They are not alone. Russian government also try to rewrite history and shut up people who remind that Russians killed and starved to death ten millions Ukrainians in 30s and 40s.
Germans are the only country who admitted their guilt and made steps and law against genocide
Hours after the initial verdict was handed down (probably before /. posted the news for nerds)
Can someone firehose that? my submissions arent no good
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
They already deny genocide against Armenians, and jail anyone who protests, etc. Compared to that, this is minor.
Another point to consider is that there is growing dissatisfaction with the idea of joining the EU. Basically Turkey has made major, major changes to the law and its government in an effort to get into the EU, but so far the process has been stalled by EU member states who are understandably wary (for a number of reasons) about letting Turkey in. Because of this, many Turkish citizens are now increasingly adopting a "kiss off" attitude towards EU membership and the EU itself. Perhaps this move is another sign of the frustration... a defiant gesture, if you will.
-PxB
Leave em both in the desert, and the dog turd will turn white and stop stinking.
Armenian genocide
The Turkish government really, really doesn't want to talk about this. Bring it up too forcefully in Turkey and it can get you killed. So the subject is censored in Turkey, effectively enough that most of today's generation of Turks just can't believe that their great grandparents could have done anything so vile. I'd imagine that today's generation of Germans would have the same reaction if Germany hadn't been forced to face up to what the National Socialist German Workers Party did.
PBS did a pretty impressive special on the subject, available on DVD.
So... it's likely that the Turkish government will keep on censoring away. It's not like anyone's going to do anything effective about it. Sure, eventually they'll figure out that censoring the 'net is a fool's errand, but they'll kick that can down the road as long as they can. And even then, will enough Turkish citizens care enough to look?
I could understand your remarks IF Turkey was a European country. Turkey is a Muslim country in denial, and they would like to "become" European by joining the EU. Except these kinds of laws ensure they never will. Because if the Turkish people had full freedom they would actually like to have religious (Muslim) government - something the Army and the Ataturk-followers hate. So I am afraid your comments are invalid with regards to Europe proper. Who cares about that Asian country anyway?
what is going on with the turkish. why do they want to ban the youtube? this website is not operated by few indiviuals. people are free to post any video they like. if we ban the youtube, even in one country, we cannot even imagine how much loss youtube is going to suffer. No business runs for losses. And in this case the youtube has nothing to do with the video posting. i think this will be unfare for any business, if websites like are going to suffer bans from these kind of issues.
Guys,
Europe has just different frame, we had a problem with nazi and see their followers are a danger that worth a bit of lmitation of free speach.
I dont think lot of people would be allow to praise the 911 terrorists in US, encourage killing americans and soldiers, spitting of the victims of 911.
but i can be wrong
Where are all of the comments about how we just don't understand Turkish "customs" and "traditions" if we don't agree with their government's stance with regard to censorship? I'm sensing a bit of a double standard here. Where exactly is the contrast between the two? It makes no difference how lax on the whole one government is when compared to another if they are in effect doing the exact same thing. At least in this case there was a vote of some sort, though that certainly does not make the decision amiable.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
american principles in america. The FBI will take it down quickly... For Turkeys, the Kurds are terrorists...
We should respect the right of Turks to build their society in whatever way that they wish. The Turks are entitled to reject Western values, just as both the Chinese and the Indians have rejected Western values.
At the same time, we should terminate the current talks that will lead to Turkey becoming a member of the European Union (EU). We Westerners have every right to prohibit Turkey from becoming a member of the EU. The EU is a bastion of Western values, and we have a right to prevent those values from being contaminated by Turkish values or Islamic values.
The issue is not bigotry. The issue is respect. The Turks expect us to respect how they suppress human rights (by, for example, censoring web sites). We should respect them.
At the same time, they should respect our desire to maintain Western values. We should join Angela Merkel in blocking Turkey's becoming a member of the EU. We should condemn Washington for pressuring the EU into admitting Turkey.
The last 6 years has shown that Washington is incapable of formulating good foreign policy.
This looks like Turkey voting themselves out of the EU.
A few more of these and it wont be just the French telling them to bug off.
While I'm no fan of censorship in any form, I have to say that part of me cheers any effort by a secular Islamic state to protect its secularism.
the internet should refuse a connection to any country that doesn't promote free speech.
there is no such thing. In istanbul east meets east.
Read radical news here
Not only geographically is it where Europe meets Asia, but also the people, culture, and city itself imbues the spirit. Historically, as the Ottoman Empire covered lands in Europe and brought people from those countries back to Istanbul, they mixed with local Turks to form new identities. In addition, traditionally (before World War I), many Greeks and people of other nationalities lived there and intermingled. Plus, Ataturk himself boasted the ideals of emulating the West, and, in doing so, transforming Turkish identity to relate more to the West.
I understand your frustration with Turkey, but you can't change facts amigo.
Turks are imbecile. There you go, now ban the fucking Slashdot. Assholes...
The EU regularly makes it clear that they have no interest in bringing Turkey into the EU. So I would expect Turkey to recoil the other direction and become less secular and more middle eastern in its orientation.
On top of that the EU regularly censors web material for a variety of reasons.
Just kidding, don't ask for a Falaka should you ever travel to Turkey.
The Falaka, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falaka, is a powerful punishment
where the soles of ones feet are whacked by a stick. You wouldn't be
able to walk for weeks were you ever unlucky enough to get one.
I don't think many Turks give a shit about whether their government's
feelings are hurt by whatever is to be found on Youtube and etc. so
maybe now is the time to open a wheelchair rental in Ankara.
Ayse Kadioglu, "The Paradox of Turkish Nationalism and the Construction of Official Identity," Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 32, no. 2 (April 1996)
... "The theme that a patriotic Turk should try to achieve a balance between the benefits of the West and the East by opting for adopting the science and technology of the former and the spirituality of the latter is repeated quite often in the schooling system designed by the educational establishment in Turkey. This difficult endeavour is almost like a mission for every patriotic Turk." ...
...
...
"Ziya Gokalp (Turkish nationalist theorist) was influenced by all of these trends. Yet, he envisaged a middle road in the tradition of Namik Kemal: `that only the material civilization of Europe should be taken and not its non-material aspects'.(21)"
"The superior material qualities of the West, its science and technology, however, can only be synthesized with the spirituality of the East with a project from without' which necessarily involves the intellectuals who take upon themselves the task of transforming a popular consciousness `steeped in centuries of superstition and irrational folk religion'.(31)"
(21.)Niyazi Berkes (ed.), Turkish Nationalism and Western Civilization: Selected Essays of Ziya Gokalp (Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press, Publishers, 1959), p.21.
(31.)Partha Chatterjee, Nationalist Thought and the Colonial World, p.51
So the Turks only want some of the superior science and organization of the Western world. They do not want any of its fundamental values. I say we do not allow Turks or any other muslims with the same ideas access to our "superior material civilization" until they start to accept our values.
All the legislation in Turkey aimed toward not criticizing Turkishness and Ataturk just points to what kind of modernization this country wants.
In the USA and most of Europe free speech is something like this:
Human life > free speech
Thus you have free speech so long as you do not threaten someones life. So certain European nations like France and Germany have taken this principle and gone:
historic suffering of Holocausted Jews > your ability to deny or minimize such suffering
I cannot remember where, but in some genocide literature they have explained the issue to me in such a way. Really it is not as bad as you think. The rationale behind it is noble.
For some reason I think the majority screwing over the minority and abusing their human rights isn't something that should be tolerated, much less respected.
Well (and that's an example, no country is a saint in this matter), the USA have been preaching on freedom and human rights for decades. It didn't prevent them to install and maintain bloody dictatorships in South America. And that, way before the USA "turned evil" and bashing the US became an olympic sport.
I do not think we (well, the West) have any right at all to interfere in Turkey or any other country.
Personally I don't think Turkey belongs to EU, and that's a matter for EU and Turkey, and no one else.
The rest, the internal Turkey matters as long as they stay out of EU, are their business and we have no right to mess with.
Yup. You sure are.
While we wouldn't neccessarily like someone spouting that drivel & a lot of people would go as far a physical violence against said person, we'd never cut off our own nose to spite our face by hobbling one of our most fundemental rights. I could see said persons being run out of a lot of towns, harrased by police & denied service at shops & restraunts but why punish ourselves by starting down that slipperly slope? (any more than we already have...)
There is a war going on for your mind.
Just wait until they hear about Turkish Batman http://www.thethinkingblog.com/2007/04/turkish-ver sion-of-batman-and-robin.html
Jefferson was pro Greek not Ottoman. See here for an example of correspondence of Jefferson to Adamantios Korais:
P hokas/31JeffersonKorais.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u94/Nikephoros
That is from the book: "Founded on Freedom and Virtue" Documents Illustrating the Impact in the United States of the Greek War of Independence, 1821-1829
Constantine G. Hatzidimitriou, editor
Basically Jefferson who knew ancient Greek was corresponding with Adamantios Korais, a modern Greek living France who was a great scholar of ancient Greek publishing with learned commentaries ancient Greek works. Jefferson even wrote that he wished a modern Greek dictionary(probably katherevousa at the time) so he could read the addresses Korais wrote to his countrymen. Korais was also an important architect of modern Greek nationalism and sought to through his writings produce the conditions necessary for modern Greeks to be ready for their independence from the Ottoman yoke. Jefferson supported the Greek revolution, because Greeks were Christian, they were a source of civilization inspiration for Americans and the whole world; while he felt muslims were an example of the wrong direction. So if Jefferson were alive today he would probably be disgusted at the high place of Turkey in American foreign policy that is a detriment to modern Greece. Back in his time the USA had a much more respectable foreign policy based on values and non-interventionism abroad.
So today Jefferson most likely would not only have disavowal for this kind of Turkish legislation, he simply would not support modern Turkey at all in the way the modern State Department supports Turkey. Let alone supporting the Turkish entry to the EU like the State Department pushes for.
For one you are clearly not very knowledgeable on these particular aspects of history.
First, you do not impose on history currently held values and beliefs, you read enough from the time period to understand the historical current values. Second that one specific book I scanned that from is 380 pages and it is not possible to distill so much info into a few sentences.
From actually examining the held values of Americans during that time period they massively support Greek Independence to the extent that the American press nicknamed the phenomeonon as "Greek Fire" of "Greek Fever". Jefferson along with most Americans at the time had very fresh in their minds the War of 1812. So they generally disliked all the European monarchies and their non-respectable foreign policies. At the time most Americans supported Greek Independence because Greeks were fellow Christians, the Greek civilization was a source of inspiration and many Americans at the time read classical Greek works. Further one of the reasons the Korais-Jefferson correspondence existed was that they had mutual respect for each other. Korais asked Jefferson on advice from his experience as an important Amerian leader on how to organize the Greek state on the American model, on how to fight for Independence.
Modern Turkey is the direct inheritor of the Ottoman state, inheriting most of its bureacracy, and traditions.
"Writings of Sam Houston, 1823-1825 vol. I" p. 21-24
cited in Hatzidimitriou, Constantine G. "Founded on Freedom and Virtue: Documents Illustrating the Impact in the United States of the Greek War of Independence, 1821-1829." Caratzas, New York; 2002, p. 255.
NOTE TO TOLERANT TURKISH GOVERNMENT: Please do not try to send any agents against me for spreading the anti-Turkishness on the web. Instead I suggest to block Slashdot for the Turks.
Ever since the ban, posting insulting homemade videos dissing their king has become a mini-fad.
Does Europe truly want a theocracy sitting on their doorstep?
I think Europe would prefer a theocracy on their doorstep, then in their living room.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I never knew about the Armenian holocaust until I had the opportunity to work with an Armenian for over a year. They are very nice people and will happily open their doors to a friends. I was talking about some issue in Turkey one day and I have never seen someone change from being so normal to pure hatred so quickly so I decided to let it lie. I then did some research on the issue to see what it was all about and I became totally shocked. Not only do the Turkish people deny what they have done when confronted with a mountain of evidence but they are totally ignorant of there actions in conjunction with the Jewish Holocaust. Let me explain, the Nazi's knew about the Turks and the Armenian Holocaust and how the Axis nations did to punish the Turks after the war. So the Nazi's decided it was fine to do the same to the Jews because even if they lost no one will get dragged in front of a firing squad. I have talked to some Turks about it and they go into total denial so now I have "zero" respect for all turks and can fully understand why the Armenians hate them. So this enforced denial just makes people like me have very little if any respect for Turkey as a nation and breeds more hate from the Armenian side, will I buy any Turkish products if I have a choice, hell no they can go and rot.
I cannot distill hundreds of pages of history to one or two sentences or paragraphs. And second do not become a smartass. I own that book, and read it from cover to coverm how else did I scan it? Reading one book of 340 pages is plenty to get a huge perspective on the simple single issue of what kind of support in early America there was for Greek Independence. Which is certainly more perspective than the average American or person I am debating with has on this issue.
... "The theme that a patriotic Turk should try to achieve a balance between the benefits of the West and the East by opting for adopting the science and technology of the former and the spirituality of the latter is repeated quite often in the schooling system designed by the educational establishment in Turkey. This difficult endeavour is almost like a mission for every patriotic Turk." ...
...
>>You:>>"Like I said, an irrational reason. Independence should be supported irrespective of religion."
Oh, wow you are some expert. You get arrogant to me, when at least I present some factual sources while you do the tea leave readings of history and get arrogant to me? When you grow up and are willing to look up what Americans of the time thought and how and why they thought that way you will not understand why they supported "Greek Fire". Tell then you are just imposing nothing but ignorant assumptions, with zero sources upon history. Maybe you should do the looking up so then you cite things.
As to the Turkish nationalism that evolved from the Ottoman times see this other post I made:
Turkish nationalism only wants West's science
Here is asummary of that post:
Ayse Kadioglu, "The Paradox of Turkish Nationalism and the Construction of Official Identity," Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 32, no. 2
"Ziya Gokalp (Turkish nationalist theorist) was influenced by all of these trends. Yet, he envisaged a middle road in the tradition of Namik Kemal: `that only the material civilization of Europe should be taken and not its non-material aspects'.(21)"
Yeah, that is a real respectable nation and society to support in foreign policy matters. This recent Turkish legislation just proves what they want and do not want from their interactions with the Western world.
I am only using your reasons. The first and apparently primary reason you give for the support of Americans for Greek independence is that the Greeks were Christians. Instead of making insults as a part of your arguments, maybe you should consider making a better argument.
In regards to Gokalp, I don't seem to understand what the problem is...you are saying he was wrong to advocate a modern Turkish national identity???
Check out this book: Dadrian, Vahakn, The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus Berghahn Books, Providence; 3rd revised edition, 1997.
g
The guy is the THE HISTORIAN for this subject, no one researched the subject more than him in his works.
Here is some of his narrative on the Ottoman court Martials published in the official Ottoman gazzette(The Turks tried to round up and destroy all these gazzettes that reported on the Miltiary Court Martial trying people for the Armenian genocide but they never managed to destroy the copy of the Armenian Patriachate in Jerusalem as the British had control of the area at the time)
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/466/322ul5.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/56/323ne0.jpg
From the sub-section on the Special Organization which was used to exterminate the Armenians, some of the best sources used are from Iki Komite written by a former captain of the Ottoman War Office's Intelligence Department and post-war Turkish newspapers.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/815/236gs5.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2919/237fd3.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9325/238he2.jp
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6499/239sb8.jpg
This study like you said, but in very specific detail, Dadrian traces the German military staff attached to the Ottoman military during the Armenian genocide in WWI and their role in the German military during WWII. It is really a great study. Too bad those images are digital camera pics only as I had no scanner back then. You can at least get a taste of what kind of a study it is though.
Anyway the Turks deny the Armenian genocide for the same reasons they pass legislation to stop "insults to Turkishness". They view their state and nationalism as a metaphysic religious concept. If the Turkish state gives them slogans to deny the Armenian genocide, slogans to distort how their state treats Kurds, they will just repeat this slogans and its variations and get aggressive or nasty to anyone who gets in their way. They are not like other nations where you can talk to them as humans on such issues, all they do is send out slogans.
Its always the same story when "any" news gets published about Turkey. The subject somehow comes to Armenians and Kurds. I know that many comments are specifically targated to stretch the subject to those areas, but I believe some slashdoters are interested in some Turkish POV.
I (like most of the Turks) know many things are wrong with our country. I know many of you have opinions likewise about your own countries. Our democracy is not as well established as western nations. We recovered from a theocratic empire and an European invasion some 80 years ago. Most of the people in Turkey are working really hard to improve democracy despite many barriers.
Unlike some ignorant comments above, Turks are not so defensive about the alleged Armenian Genocide. Turkey, as an official position, accepts that many Armenians were killed - along with many Turks - during the Russian-Ottoman wars, but denies that the term genocide is technically applicable. There were many other Armenians living in other parts of the Ottoman Empire that weren't at all oppressed, and some were even holding official positions in the empire. So its really very very different from the Jewish Genocide during the Nazi Germany. The killing of Hrant Dink is something very marginal in Turkey. There are many comments that references the incident to state the point "If you talk against the genocide in Turkey, you get killed", but no one is looking what happened after the incident. Thousands of people rallied to protest the killing, carrying this favorite slogan: "We are all Hrant Dinks! We are all Armenians!" (see here). There is no plural hatred against Armenians or defenders of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey. The hatred is against people who looks at only one side of the coin.
Does anyone honestly believe Turkey belongs in the European Union? I mean, come on, it doesn't matter if you're in a current EU nation or currently in Turkey -- you gotta side with what you believe. If you're in Turkey and truly believe in censorship/fascism for the good of the nation, then stop pretending you're European. They dealt with that mid 20th century and rejected it. STAND UP for your belief in a bigotry and intolerance! STAND UP for censorship! Acknowledge it and embrace it! STAND UP for revisionist history (Armenians who? Genocide what?). At least the most oppressive middle eastern nations openly embrace their belief systems. Turkey on the other hand is a living hypocrisy -- it has no place in the EU as long as this sort of BS continues. This is a harsh statement, but I believe well representative of the majority of Europeans.
Just what do you base this claim upon? Turkey is a democracy. It has its shortcomings. Care to get into an argument about a two-party stranglehold's effect on democratic processes?
Turkey is vehemently opposed to being forced to admit to Armenian genocide a century ago. At the same time, as many Turkish journalists have pointed out, France's stand against Turkey's admission into the EU because of this is certainly lest than virtuous, given that they have never owned up to their own more recent history in Algeria.
The PKK is a group recognised by the US State Department as a terrorist organisation. After its leader Abdullah Ocalan, was captured by Turkish Special Forces in Kenya, many governments and groups protested his trial as unfair. The main reasons for this was that the trial was held in the Ankara State Security Court, which is ruled by a three judge panel in which a military officer is included as one judge, and that after his arrest, Ocalan was unable to be reached by attorneys for ten days. Compare and contrast these judicial flaws with the obscene US treatment of detainees, and the Guantanamo Show Trials in which any defendant allegations of torture are considered classified information?
In regards to the YouTube incident mentioned; it was quickly ruled as an unconstitutional act by a Turkish court, and its import was greatly inflated in the Western media. Read a Turkish editorial on the matter:
Barin Kayaoglu, "Defending YouTube or Defending Atatürk?", Journal of Turkish Weekly, 17 March 2007
Try expanding your knowledge, instead of depending upon others' prejudices for you bigotry.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
You know to have a discussion you have to respect certain conditions. You are clearly not capable for responding to someone's comments. It seems you have an alterior agenda and whatever it is, you are not doing a good job in concealing it or responding to the person talking to you and showing that you have even read their words. So you can continue to post whatever you want to post, and ignoring what is said to you.
Without draconian measures such as this censorship, the gap between the religious people and the guardians of secularism would rapidly increase to the point where you could expect an Islamic revolution like the one in Iran.
People forget how Ataturk made the country secular - by excessive bloodshed and repression. The majority of the Turks never wanted to be secular and are still very much opposed to it. The relevant question is: do you allow your democracy to self-implode? Do you allow the election of a party that will eliminate democracy completely - not to mention freedom of speech, secularism etc
So don't judge too harshly - they are in a tight spot.
Of course their whole arrangement makes joining the EU any time soon very unlikely. This in turn gives them a sense of rejection which pushes the country towards Islamic government. If on the other hand the EU supports their fight for secularism, which takes from as limits on civil liberties, it is betraying its own principles. Not an entirely trivial situation.
Just some cents:
1) the law is about not offending Ataturk which has nothing to do, just the opposite, with muslims or muslim laws, since it brought Turkey just the opposite to a laic state. So this law actually is just kind of agains muslim extremism not for it. (not that I agree with this law being done, but it should be clear it has nothing to do with Turkey being a state with a muslim majority, just the opposite)
2) Talking about genocides and such, anybody has anything to say about Native Americans or in general about the original inhabitants of the american lands that the christians so gently "converted"? (be it clear that I don't approve nor pretend to judge the Armenian history, just find it funny how just some of this facts are not considered... they should be all considered, and all considered with the same horror and disgust, no matter which is the country they happened nor the historical moment nor the numbers)... Or just let's face it that the ones who write history write it as they like it. But let it apply to every country then, not just to yours.
3) I live in a "modern country" and "EU founder" which is Italy. I won't discuss about the ingerences that the religion (catholic church, no bad muslims here!) has in this country and so on, which are scandalous and should be adressed by EU IMHO. I'll just say this: try to say something offending the pope or the catholic church in general or something against a politician in Italy and let me know how much freedom of speech you have. We have brilliant examples of it (indymedia to say one). I guess this doesn't apply just to Italy but probably to many EU nations and I'm sure could easily apply abroad (anyone heard and still remembers Waco? if so is it thought at schools and so or do you have to be "alternative" to know something about it?) Are this cases properly adressed by the public and by the EU? I don't think so.
4) In EU there are countries like Cyprus that were accepted before some basic issues were solved (the problems between the turkish and greek cypriots) just because of internal pressures of some countries (Greece). I'm not here to judge who is right on that matter (even tho if you read any independent, meaning not greek nor turkish side, historian from UK you'll notice that the Greek "truth" is very leakish... not just that, when UN proposed some reasonable solutions it was always one site, the greek one, not to want it) but how can such a country be accepted before solving the situation? I took out this argument because a good part of the Turkey-EU relations are based on this and based on the vetos of Greece/Cyprus based just on personal concerns.
5) I guess a good part of US people don't agree with the Bush politics, this is a matter of fact. I personally think, and of course it's just my opinion, that Bush politics is totally moronic. Do I have to conclude that all americans are (the one agreeing and the one not agreeing) are a bunch of morons? This said we could apply this to other cases aswell and not generalize too much.
Just my few cents..
Turkish assembly did not vote for censoring web sites. There are many groups in the Turkish National Assembly who can propose voting on something. This is one of those. It is not a new law, it is not a new policy; it is just a stupid proposal for one.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
Well, you don't seem to know much about turkey either. Turkey is probably one of the few countries were you will find the "liberals" siding along with the military powers.
Yes, Turkey is indeed secular and extremely western (depends a bit on what part of the west you compare it to) "thanks" to the efforts of the man who would be come known as ataturk, father turk, for his efforts to turn unite Turkey and turn it into a modern nation.
The problem is this, Turkey is NOT a united country by itself. One turk is NOT the same as another. This is one of the biggest problems with for instance immigration to the west. Those people that are looked down upon in western europe are looked down upon in Turkey as well. It is roughly like how a Hillbilly will be frowned upon in Amsterdam by the locals AND by any visiting New Yorkers.
Turkey however so far has remain united thanks to its military leadership that comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone who dares to take Turkey in an undesired direction. The EU problem is that the Turkey that has the most change to join is also in a very real sense a military dictatorship. If as the EU insists the military reduces its influence then Turkey might very well become an islamic state.
Remember the riots in France about banning headscarfs? Similar stuff happens all over europe usually at the level of should headscarfs be allowed to be worn by public officials, like for instance in the courtsmthe legal system should be impartial, and at least in most european countries judges and other officials are therefore NOT allowed to show any signs of religion or politics. Muslims being allowed to wear headscarfs is therefore a direct attack on western traditions. So what is the case in Turkey? Well, they are banned and the military makes sue that that remains to be the way because they know what secular means.
So yes, turkey is a modern secular state, BUT what the grandparent might have been referring too is that it seems that IF the people in Turkey had a choice that might not remain the case.
Turkey is a democracy, but only so long as the people vote for the "correct" path as laid down by the military. It therefore is also very much a dictarorship, just that in some peoples eyes, that the dictatorships policies are desirable.
Turkey is like a man standing behind you with a gun, forcing you to make love to beautifull sexy women for a living. Yes, you might like making love to beautifull sexy women for a living BUT there is still a man with a gun behind you telling you what to do.
Say that this case was true for an entire nation, would you therefore conclude that this nation is entirely hetero OR might that country go homosexual the moment the man with the gun is removed.
EU efforts might very well result in them creating another muslim nation right on their doorstep.
The US has a city called philidelphia (or something) wich I believe is usually regarded as the most liberal of cities, (by US standards). Imagine this as Istanbul. Now imagine that phili is the capitol of the US and that the pentagon is making sure that phili politics are US politics. The US would seem to be far more "modern" then it really is, it might even allow gay marriages and such.
BUT the US ain't really that modern, there is the backward Bible Belt.
The father of all turks was a great man, BUT his rule is enforced through force. The question is what would happen when you remove that force.
Tell me, do americans in places like New York or LA etc feel that gay marriages should be outlawed? Nonetheless they are. Same with Turkey, just because Istanbul is the face of Turkey doesn't mean the body agrees with it.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Is that default values of Western civilization ?
Before the say something stupid about Turks. Learn something about Turks
1-) Insulting Turks was not good idea. Saying bad words against Mom leads to Murder in this country. We are too sensetive against insulting our values. And Turks always loving solve problems with his hands or guns... Solving problems in courtyard was not so traditional in this Country...
2-) We (Turks) are so sensitive about Turkish Flag, Ataturk, Turkish Military, Koraan, Mosque,womens in our family and our ancestors. When some one in western try mock up them. Anger was rising.
3-) SO there is no way to stop people mocking up our values in INTERNET.
4-) When some clever Western boy try to mock up our sensitives. This was nation wide news. All Lamer Hacker groups try to something stupid (trust me we had group which have more than 100.000 members to generate PING against selected targets). Government office telephones locked because of "to do something against this" requests by people.
5-) We had enough stupid government officials to not understand nature of internet.
Also
Turkish people does not want to join EU. EU was christian club. They always double facing against us. Turkey membership for EU was Political show. No one believes no one wants and non of our politician wants to title of "killer of EU membership". We waiting to absolute answer of "We DO NOT WANT TURKEY IN EU" from European Union. And EU does not want to do this because we will raise customs tax for EU products.
AND
People often does not know own country history and own faults. After all of these technological advance. Western Civilization still try to hinder his bads in history.
I'm sorry... And Western Civilization was responsible to
1-) Kill of Native Americans (Aztecs Mayas etc)
2-) World Wide Slavery
3-) Genocide against Jews (not only in WW II)
4-) Letting Jews make genocide against Muslims.
5-) Using Nuclear weapons against human
6-) Using Chemical weapons against human
7-) Create 2 World War because of sharing world resources.
8-) Destroying entire World echology using with his technology.
9-) Kill civilians because of to be member of another religion.
10-) Produce tons of nuclear weapons ???
Please stop bashing my country... If Turkey needs Bashing, This is my job, not yours...
In WWI My ancestors die in Gallipoli to defend our lands and at same time Armenians join enemy forces to fight against us. I still wonder why ?
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
It's a sad thing that the "moderators" seem to be chosen for their ignorance. Your post said absolutely nothing, it's so empty of meaning that it's not even wrong.
OTOH, the grandparent post was quite informative on the real issues regarding Turkey. The laws mentioned in the article are actually trying to protect Turkey from Islam extremism. Although it may seem that censorship is not exactly the best way to protect freedom, that was the intention of the Turkish legislators.
At this point, your inane comment has (+5) of which 70% "interesting" and 30% "insightful", while the GP has (+1) "insightful". OK, let's go to metamod...
This is not about Islam vs. Christianity.
For one thing Europe is today dominated by liberal socialism.
And Islam is definitely not about autocratic nationalism.
Your remark about a union with other turkic countries highlights the problem: 90 years after the fall of the empire the Islamic neighbours still hate Turkey for it's imperialism, ruling out any real union with real countries.
Post tenebras lux. Post fenestras tux.
I was shocked when I followed the link in the /. summary to read the news on CNN to see how media can twist things to create "news".
A daily Turkish newspaper (www.sabah.com.tr) has been recently campaigning for "clean Internet" in Turkey to protect children being abused in the Internet, to prevent access to child-porn sites, to show no tolerance to those who put these materials on their web sites etc.
The prime ministry of Turkey officially supported this campaign, and to be able to efficiently cope with this sort of crimes, their party in the national assembly gave a proposal to a commission responsible for "families and women welfare", to give way to such bans more easily and quicker.
The commission has to approve this to bring it to the attention of the grand assembly. Yet alone the Slashdot title "Turkish Assembly Votes For..."
This proposal has nothing to do with free speech. Turkey is now a mature democracy where no one can censor press or do something against free speech.
Its justice system attached to the European Laws. Anyone not happy with something in Turkey has the right to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights. Turkey has no option but to obey the ruling.
they say "dont sell cress to a cress seller" in turkey.
i AM turkish. i am living in turkey for my whole life. i KNOW what it is like here.
there no such thing as "east meets west" exist. it was invented by government in order to make tourism advertisements abroad, and also put turkey's cause forward in european union application back in 1986-1987. Turgut Ozal, was the prime minister then.
again, there is no such thing, and in istanbul east meets east. nobody but the turkish believe in such a thing that "east meets west" exists. its just a hype make-believe.
Read radical news here
The US has a city called philidelphia (or something) wich I believe is usually regarded as the most liberal of cities
You misspelled "San Francisco."
No explanation needed :p
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
... but it's definitely misguided. You can't simply enforce your morality on all those around you in this day and age. That's sort of thing that starts nuclear wars, encourages terrorism (hell, it's the cause of terrorism), and breaks diplomatic and economic links between you and neighbouring nations. I agree with the OP: don't interfere aggressively. Let them censor, but don't do them any favours, like let them in the EU.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
should germany be banned from the EU for banning swastikas and nazi propaganda? that's essentially what this law in turkey is about--preventing more extremist elements from gaining sway. yes, it's not the strict interpretation of free speech we think of here in america, but america's not exactly a bastion of that sort of free speech nowadays anyway, what with 'free speech zones' and other offenses.
so in sum it seems less like people are really objecting less to the offense to the ideal of absolute free speech than they are using it as a cloak to practice bigotry against people of another ethnicity and religion.
the turks are a wonderful, kind, gentle people who are more modern and developed than many of the countries already in the EU. keeping them out is thinly veiled bigotry and what's more, folly.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
First, not the majority of turkish people want islamic state. The percentage that wants it is around 20% of the voters, and rather an inflated number that is (due to election frauds in islamic locales), and that would probably translate to the entirety of the population (including non-voters) as kinda maybe 25%-30% at the most.
rest are divided among major groups like kemalists (ataturk nationalists), west supporters, (liberals, which generally have many stuff in common with kemalists, except in nationalistic matters like ataturk is a taboo or not, and freedom of speech related to that issue), a good deal of social democrats (which generally are almost transient with kemalists, since most of ataturk's proposed ideas and guidelines curiously coincides with social democracy, and the party he founded, chp, is a social democrat party for over around, say 70 or so years), extreme nationalists, which are basically right wing radicals, which are very considerable in numbers, but not on majority over any of the above groups.
the biggest groups are named "undecideds" in turkey.
these are people of mild composition, they dont want to mess with anybody or anything, want matters to be good and life normal, no crises, no stampede, economy in rails etc and such. they are generally approving of european values, becuse of humanitarian approaches (we are not talking about stupid extreme left wing idiots here, were talking Danton, Erasmus, Voltaire, Rousseau humanism & liberalism - though this population rarely knows these writers's names), quality of life in europe in particular. (thinking that europeans must be doing some things right). and they want in in european union, nomatter who says what. extreme right wing nationalists, islamic groups, and even portion of the kemalists who are disullisioned with europe and dont want to get into euo anymore dont even add up to the number of this "silent crowd".
these "undecideds", ironically, are the people whose votes decide who gets in power at any given time.
in the last elections, they were extremely disillusioned by the corruption earlier parties and governments exhibited, and some were impressed with the seemingly considerable work that was done by the people in municipial duties (who founded the akp later, and tayyip erdogan, current pm was the mayor of istanbul, islamic), so they said exactly like this; "lets try those islamists this time".
this was a sentence which was actually said by those people in debates, among family, friends and such.
and they voted for them. and voila, 38% votes for islamic party, and thanks to the election system that twists the votes SO absurd, they get 95% of the chairs in the assembly.
curiously, islamists also want to get into the eu. many fragments of islamic community thinks that it will be much too easier to spread islamic influence when turkey is in eu. and they are right, from what we see from the proceedings of a minority islamic population is able to succeed in netherlands, even in this state.
hence when in power, islamic party (akp) have pushed for eu reforms with unseen vigor in any prior government. and passed many laws to eu guidelines. as in all matters that comes too fast, too low a number of these laws are actually being practiced.
ah, i forgot one segment. that is the military.
it is a MAJOR segment of the population. in that it holds armed power, and also in that there are explicit items in constitution that ordains the army "guardianship of secular democratic regime".
and for the last 80 years, they have been EXACTLY doing that.
back around 1960, an islamically inclined prime minister, Adnan Menderes, and his then center-right and extreme-right composured party (demokrat parti, which is curiously the party that the roots and many members of the akp or other right/islamically inclined parties come from), have gone rather awkward, started censoring the media in the wake of increasing critisizm for failure, BANNE
Read radical news here
Oh yes? And where did you get this information, if i can ask?
So you think more than half of the people who've voted for the current governtment want to be ruled by "Islamic rule"? This is ridiculous. "military wants european union"
Noone cares about what the military wants. The fact that most Turkish people want to join the EU is enough.
Military invasions in Turkey have done enough damage to the country. In fact, most of the resistance to join the EU came from the army in Turkey.
you would dispute any source that i would bring forth.
military have expilictly stated that they want european union.
and as for the coup, if it were not for those interventions, many people wouldnt be alive as of now. especially in 1980.
if you are just some youngster that was born after 1976, stop discussing that with me, as you have no idea what it was like between 1975-1980. you would be only filled with crap out of prominent left wing or right wing journalists as to how the military intervention was so bad, without any info how bad it was before it.
i were 4 years old, and i was not let to play in the streets, along with MANY in my generation due to the mess up radical left and right wings created in the streets.
Read radical news here
France recently banned anyone other that "professional journalists" from reporting violence:
r ance_subway_clashes_3
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=21237
Of course, the French press isn't bothering to report continued, endemic riots by "youths":
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_re_eu/f
Funny how the religion of these French "youths" is always left out of news stories, and now France has banned anyone but the pliable, fully-bought-and-paid-for "professional journalists" from doing any reporting on the activities of these "youths".
Hell, France needs to worry about their own damn intifada, not what's going on in Turkey. Draping the rug over it doesn't make the elephant in the room go away.
You are right, I would not believe any of the sources you provide. Because there can't be any source as to how many people want to be ruled by islamic rule in Turkey, and I assume this 20% is something you made up.
I agree that Article 301 must be axed. It is a shame for Turkey. But this discussion would be off topic now.
Whereas I stongly agree that there must be something in the penal code against web sites featuring child porn etc. so that quily people won't go away with their crimes.
I also wonder why your comments (no matter how bad they are :) ) always get a score of 2, while mines are 1? Any possibility that you are moderating this discussion? :)
moderating while participating in the discussion is not possible. any mod points one uses in a discussion are nullified if s/he joins in the discussion by posting anything.
im just a part of the unison that the people in slashdot represent, and my views are naturally similar to many here. im at home field. hence the points.
Read radical news here
Turkey's election system is quite bad as it is. You don't have to make stuff up.
The difference is, besides just one death, is that these people were fighting to be included. At no point was there a threat of civil war or the break-up of France. The immigrants just wanted to stop being considered second-class citizens. They want to belong. Lots of mayhem and chaos for the cameras, but most of it was insured and nothing permanent was damaged.
If Turkey breaks up, we're talking the attempted formation of an independent Kurdistan, which traditionally spans parts of Turkey, Iraq, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Syria. You'd be looking at possible land grabs by many of those countries, as they all make "traditional" border claims. Paybacks for the Armenian massacre of 1915 could escalate the whole area into a bloodbath that makes Southern Iraq look like a safe-haven.
I'm not saying everything in Europe is all laid back and nothing ever happens, I'm just saying they've evolved more into a bureaucracy than anything else. They're much more inclined to a "just relax, let's talk and we can work things out" attitude than most everyone in Asia Minor.
It'll be a shock, but give it another 50 years and I think becoming a member of the E.U. will be the best thing that happened to Turkey since the formation of the secular state by the Atatürk.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
What would TJ do?
Jefferson would not have supported the foreign policy of the USA for many years now, and he would be in open rebellion against this current tyrannical administration. A second revolt against a madman named George, thief of habeas corpus.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
When she sits around the house, she really sits around the house.
Congrats to him anyhow for dragging Turkey from the bronze age to the iron age. Hope the next guy gets them a little closer to modernity.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I lived in Turkey for about 14 months back in the 80s (U.S. Army), and this doesn't surprise me at all; they're very protective of the memory of Ataturk. There is a legend that he was bitten by a cat or something and his spirit now resides in a cat which will someday bite or scratch someone and 'infect' that person with the reborn spirit of Ataturk, or something like that. It's a form of nationalism, I suppose. They also don't like when people do bad things to Turkish flags. An American woman soldier got drunk and stomped on a Turkish flag the night before she was due to end her assignment in Turkey, and they threw her in prison. (This was back in '86 I guess.) I'm sure the U.S. embassy worked something out and got her released; I mention it just to show how serious they are about such things.
Turkish politicians wants to join the EU, they think it will make them money.
Most EU Politicians wants them to join if they can behave.
Most EU citizens don't want them to join - each time Turkey does something from the dark ages more people don't want them to join, but the EU politicians say that joining is a long process and they have time to change.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
I'd mod you up.
The EU has "been there, done that", and knows the pitfalls. Disagreement is something they are used to, and are trying to compromise their way around it. Fair dues, as the gun is only a short term solution - nothing finally gets put to rest without sitting round a table and thinking long term.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
The Ankara based tank; International Strategic Research Organisation (ISRO), published their European Union Perception Survey 3 (129k PDF), November 6, 2006.
The survey's first qestion and the results were:
What I surmise is that many Turks would prefer to be in the EU, if all things were equal in their minds, but they consider the current price of entry too high.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
I don't believe Turkey was implicated in any of the suspected CIA flights of detainees to be rendered, detainees headed to secret Prisons as many EU nations have been, or accused of being one of the nations that allowed the Secret American Prisons within their sovereign territory. As I recall, Turkey's parliament voted against the US using its country as a base from which to launch their attack on Iraq, with the stated objection being that it was illegal without UN Security Council agreement.
Oh yeah, those civilized Euros.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
* Saying "there was no Armenian cleansing" in France is legally banned. If you say that in the borders of France, you go to court (free mind?) * Tell an ordinary guy on the street in the US, that there is someone in Palagonia (he probably has no idea, and will assume that Palagonia is somewhere in ex-Russia) talking against the US, and his reply will be: "go kick their as.es" (very civilized, eh?) * Still remember the riots in France? What was the reason? * Ever read any news about families killed by fire in their houses, in Germany, because some racist idiot thought they did not belong to "civilized" Germany? * Civil war and bombings in Ireland and Spain? Anyone know about the reasons? * Talking about necessity of secularity, but keeping oath on the Bible mandatory to be able to be a president? * Is Belgium still hiding a murderer of a highly respected Turkish businessman? (see Fehriye Erdal, murderer of a Sabanci Family member) * Do we still have any country that needs democracy to take to, apart from Iraq? I think we have, as long as the weapon companies prevail. Now, who is talking about what? I see no difference between Turkey and western countries, human nature is very similar.