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Ad-Supported Free Music Downloads Doomed to Failure?

madonna writes "CNET extensively explains why the new We7.com download service — which offers ad-embedded free music downloads without DRM — is doomed to failure. 'This service absolutely, categorically will not succeed. You can quote us on that. It's true the best way to combat piracy is to provide a realistic and affordable alternative, and free is certainly affordable. But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements.'"

226 comments

  1. Depends on the catalog by jshriverWVU · · Score: 1

    This could be a nice way of distributing movies. Personally I wouldn't mind paying $3-4 for a movie with a little ad at the beginning (can always fast forward). But for a song it would suck to be in the middle and hear "Buy x-product today".

    1. Re:Depends on the catalog by thanatos_x · · Score: 1

      If this service gets big, I'm going to take a guess that any number of products will come around that will cut out the ads. This probably will prevent the service from getting big.

      --
      I am not an expert. If I am misled in something, please correct me.
    2. Re:Depends on the catalog by NorQue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally I wouldn't mind paying 3-4 EUR for a movie *without* ads in the beginning. You can get most movies little time after the release for 2-3 EUR more already, why should I waste my precious time just to save very little money? It'd also be naive to assume that you'll be able to skip these ads.

    3. Re:Depends on the catalog by eln · · Score: 1

      Don't kid yourself. If this ever happened to movies, it would not be one little ad at the beginning. At the very least, it would be 10 minutes of ads at the beginning that you can't fast forward through, similar to what many DVDs do today. Hell, they might even interrupt the movie for more ads, or digitally insert product placement into the movie.

    4. Re:Depends on the catalog by Wite_Noiz · · Score: 1

      can always fast forward

      Tell that to my DVD player.
      I think it's a sorry state of affairs when we're forced to sit through so much advertising/legal rubbish, watch a pathetic animated menu system that is considered a feature, watch more disclaimers, and then finally get to the movie.

      More related to your comment (and assuming deliver to a computer), WMV (and probably others) already give the content generator the ability to prevent fast-forward.
      There are ways of removing this, of course, but it's yet another feature in "modern" entertainment.
    5. Re:Depends on the catalog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Product placement doesn't bother me all that much, as long as it's just simple things like billboards or products on store shelves, etc. What DOES bother me is when that advertising doesn't result in any benefit to me. Take BF2142. I don't mind the in-game ads. I really don't. BUT, don't charge me $50 for the game then. If a game with ZERO ads is worth $50, a game with ads like BF2142 should cost $30. They're making more money and there's no trickle down to the consumer. Better yet, why not offer me the choice of how many ads I want to see and that would correspond to a reduction in game costs. This would work best with a recurring payment model (MMORPGs, pay attention). I'd be a lot more likely to play WoW if I could pay only $5 a month and see ads for Nike all over Azeroth.

    6. Re:Depends on the catalog by hax0r_this · · Score: 1

      The music is distributed in a DRM free mp3 format, so I can't see why I wouldn't be able to skip them. Also, from what I've read the ads are only at the beginning and end of songs, and 4 weeks after you download the version with the ad you get a version without the ad for free. Personally, I am seriously considering trying it if they can get any good artists.

    7. Re:Depends on the catalog by dheera · · Score: 1

      If course you can skip the ads on a DVD. Once the DVD is in your possession, you have the data. It's not like the ad gives you a magic key you need to use to decrypt the rest of the data -- the rest of the data is physically there, on the disc, ready to read, so why not read it?

      If your player insists on not being able to fast forward through certain tracks ... well... wow, you're back in the cassette age. get a better player.

    8. Re:Depends on the catalog by Miseph · · Score: 1

      Dude, you don't know pain until you've dealt with the DVD version of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. 10 minutes of ads 9that, mercifully, can be fast forwarded), followed by a menu system clogged up with obnoxious voiceovers and cheesy video segments that can't be skipped and take at least a minute each, set up in such a way that one must go through at least two menus before even finding the "play" button. Throw in a bevy of confusing and useless menu "options" and consistently horrid scripting, and it's almost like 20th Century Fox wants to keep people from being able to rehearse for shadow casting.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    9. Re:Depends on the catalog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      if they can get any good artists.

      --bingo.

    10. Re:Depends on the catalog by denidoom · · Score: 1
      I think it's disgusting you have to pay $20 for a DVD and still have ads as well. Also, even worse, paying $10 for a movie theatre ticket and having to sit through product ads. That just seems wrong to me.

      I thought itunes downloaded songs at around 128?

      --
      Lane Myer: I have great fear of tools. I once made a birdhouse in woodshop and the fair housing committee condemned it.
    11. Re:Depends on the catalog by Moochman · · Score: 1

      A better player, such as? Most players have this limitation built in.

    12. Re:Depends on the catalog by dheera · · Score: 1

      My point simply that
      1. your player sucks if it cannot fast-forward (whether it's obedience on their part, stupid technical limitations, etc.). it just sucks.
      2. i just read the data that's physically on the desk. it's in plain bytes. it's easy. i.e. my player can fast-forward anything.
      3. to me, a player that lacks fast-forward is antiquated and that a player that can fast-forward is better because it contains an essential feature.

      does this actually mean that my 400mhz PC with a 1x DVD drive, no region codes, and software that can play anything is actually better than your player? if so, why the heck do they don't they make good players anymore like the good old days? i betcha if i started making players that fast forward again (heck, a simple feature... if you have unlimited rewind, why not unlimited fast forward?) people might actually like to buy mine!

    13. Re:Depends on the catalog by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      UOP (User Operation Prohibition) is not implemented in VLC, a cross-platform player. There are mods for hardware players, or you can buy one that doesn't implement UOP. There is a website called google that is helpful for this kind of information.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    14. Re:Depends on the catalog by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      I'd be a lot more likely to play WoW if I could pay only $5 a month and see ads for Nike all over Azeroth. Well, you already get to see constant ads for power leveling and cheat gold in your /whisper chat box. I'd pay a little extra to have those go away.

      Come to think of it though, company logos on armor and stuff could be fun. "This guild officially sponsored by Toyota!"
    15. Re:Depends on the catalog by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I'd rather pay to not have ads, but then again, most of the crap out there is simply not worth it.

      Ultimately, I like my usual strategy these days of picking and choosing songs I really like and buying them.

      On the other hand, if it's true you get an ad free version eventually, I might just download hundreds of them and not listen until I get the unencumbered version. Of course, I haven't RTFA, so I don't know that you could get away with that, but seems like a good strategy.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    16. Re:Depends on the catalog by f_raze13 · · Score: 1

      If you're talking about the previews at the beginning of the movie, even if it doesn't let you fast forward, just skip forward a chapter until you get to the root menu.

    17. Re:Depends on the catalog by Drooling+Iguana · · Score: 1

      Bah, the very existence of a home release of RHPS is an abomination before God, anyway.

      --
      ... I'm addicted to placebos
    18. Re:Depends on the catalog by Miseph · · Score: 1

      For those of us who need to rehearse (you know, so that we can perform it in a theater), it's a necessary evil.

      Also comes in handy when your reel has so many skips and gaps that the movie barely runs over 60 minutes and the movie breaks on a weekly basis.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  2. Big Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People don't like listening to ads before listening to music? Shock and awe.

    1. Re:Big Surprise by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People don't like listening to ads before listening to music? Shock and awe.

      Tell it brother!

      I have DVDs which are years old and they still play these gawddam previews for upcoming films of years past. I'm ticked because my DVD player gives me guff when I try to fast forward, skip chapter or go directly to the menu, with the circle with a slash through it stating such behaviour is vorboten. I must sit like a good little monkey and watch whatever shite they deemed necessary prior to enjoying the content I shelled many quid for, however many times I want to watch the films.

      Come to think of it, it's a very strong argument in favour of ripping, editing and burning your own videos to get around this abhorent behaviour.

      Now if they think I need to listen to the Coke or some sports figure hawking the latest rubber shoe straight outta China before I can listen to my toonz, they can forget it.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Big Surprise by Who235 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      From the we7.com site:

      If you want a track that is free, legal, safe and the artist gets rewarded then we add the ad. However, you don't have to have the ad forever, as with We7 technology, after a period of time (4 weeks) you will have the choice to have the track 'ad free'. So, enjoy We7 and the new digital music download model.

      Looks like you can DL the song, shelve it for a few weeks, then have it add free. Sounds good to me.

      I hate ads, but I like free music. I can wait.
    3. Re:Big Surprise by u-bend · · Score: 1

      Yes. I guess we're lucky that legal music doesn't start with a "You wouldn't steal a car would you..." message. I think someone once pointed out how those MPAA messages that you're forced to watch at the beginning of DVDs really end up mostly abusing the legitimate buyers of the product. However, some music might be well suited to corporate sponsorship. Some artists seem made for this type of distribution.

      --
      u-bend
    4. Re:Big Surprise by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      This is why mplayer is nice. Play any title immediately, without the stupid menu games or the mandatory FBI warning.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    5. Re:Big Surprise by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      This is why mplayer is nice. Play any title immediately, without the stupid menu games or the mandatory FBI warning.

      Which is certainly great, but I have a portable DVD player I take on long flights or when I travel. It's adequate and I don't bother with laptops (bulk, limited battery etc.) I'm stuck.

      Imagine MP3 players, or iPods even, which would not let you fast-forward past plugs for the new Nike shoe (Only $250 and it might last 3 months! [Not water resistant]) or Coca-Cola (will rot your teeth AND contribute to your personal obesity!) Yay!

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    6. Re:Big Surprise by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, so much commercial pop drivel these days essentially is advertising...

    7. Re:Big Surprise by Laur · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm stuck. Use DVDdecryptor & DVDshrink to remove all the annoyances & re-burn to a blank DVD. Yes, it's a bit of work, but yields a far superior product.

      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    8. Re:Big Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, when I'm forced to sit through those, I think: "Damn, if I'd pirated this movie, I wouldn't have to put up with this Bull." non-DRMd with ads doesn't bother me, if the ads are short. Every track, like what they propose here, is anon-starter. Even from a marketing point of view, it don't make sense. Ads that make the consumer frustrated and hostile only work during election years.

    9. Re:Big Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the difference is that you are paying for your dvd. you shouldn't have the ads, however i don't mind an advertisement for something i didn't pay for.

    10. Re:Big Surprise by markbt73 · · Score: 1

      I've always hated that. Especially when it's a preview for some crap movie you'd never watch anyway. I usually hit "Mute," then use the time to go prepare a snack.

      As for the topic of ad-supported downloads, well, if there's an easy way to chop the ads off it, I'd do it. But I subscribe to XM radio, watch TV through a Tivo, and use AdBlock, just to avoid as many commercials as I can. And unless I know it's going to be a packed house, I try to show up to the movies a little late, too.

      They want to give me something ad-sponsored for free? Great. Still can't make me pay attention to the ads, though. Un-skippable doesn't mean un-ignorable.

      --
      "Oh boy! Are we going to try something dangerous?"
    11. Re:Big Surprise by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      Since at this point we're already breaking US law, I go a step further and rip from a library copy. People that support the broken system because it is "more legal" are fooling themselves.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    12. Re:Big Surprise by CRiyl · · Score: 1

      Ever done the "full" movie theater experience (i.e. trivia, ads, trailers, ads, etc)? Yaaargh. Forced DVD menus are an extension of that, annoying as they are. I don't think they push ads that way in concerts.

    13. Re:Big Surprise by xiong.chiamiov · · Score: 0

      Nice point. Except that the ads are less than 10 secs, and they only last for 4 weeks. rtf site

    14. Re:Big Surprise by 1110110001 · · Score: 1

      10 seconds on a typical 3 minute song is like 5 minute ads before your mainstream 90 minutes movie.

    15. Re:Big Surprise by xiong.chiamiov · · Score: 1

      But they aren't outdated, and won't even exist in 4 weeks.

  3. no problems here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think there's noth**Call Geico 1-800-861-8380 - So easy a cave man could do it**ing wrong with this business model

    1. Re:no problems here by Tackhead · · Score: 3, Funny
      > I think there's noth**Call Geico 1-800-861-8380 - So easy a cave man could do it**ing wrong with this business model

      We're sorry, the number you have reached has been disconnected. To continue watching this HD-DVD, please install Linux, and call 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.

    2. Re:no problems here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For people who don't get the reference, just google the string of hex digits. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

  4. I think a lot of folks would by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    I mean seriously- infringing on recent material makes a lot of folks feel guilty (and it SHOULD).

    If they have a way to get the stuff morally, they will because a lot of people are as moral as they can afford to be.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:I think a lot of folks would by jtheisen · · Score: 1
      Why would that be immoral? The music industry
      1. make people addicted to their music to radio and TV, then letting people pay to get a private copy
      2. do so with children as well by music especially produced for that target group, of course the parents not consenting despite them having pay the bills
      3. fund the MAFIAAs of this world to sue and intimidate innocent citizens
      4. tell girls how good they have to look in their videos clips

      In Germany there was a music-industry funded ad implying it is just that some criminals get raped in prison - namely pirates.

      Yes, it's their right to do all that - I'm not the one trying to criminalise someone else. But moral?

      It comes down to the following question: Do we want the music industry and all what's associated with it? I don't.

      And don't tell me now: You don't have to listen to this music: I have to, on most radio and TV, on any party I go to. All children do listen to music and they demand private copies from their parents which they can't deny to any degree. I won't fund a system I can live without, but as long as it's there I won't alienate myself from others by keeping up an ideological abstinence.

    2. Re:I think a lot of folks would by aichpvee · · Score: 1

      "Moral" is so subjective as to be useless. It just sounds childish when you people say it.

      Can we get the hard science discussion of intellectual property rights already?

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    3. Re:I think a lot of folks would by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Can we get the hard science discussion of intellectual property rights already?
      Are you sure you're in the right place? :)
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:I think a lot of folks would by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I mean seriously- infringing on recent material makes a lot of folks feel guilty (and it SHOULD).

      I think artificially creating scarcity is what should make folks feel guilty. Legal or not, it's morally wrong.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  5. "Costs the same"??? by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements.

    I don't know about the FP author, but I consider "legal" a pretty big point to factor into "cost"!

    And I say that as someone who loathes ads.

    1. Re:"Costs the same"??? by Itninja · · Score: 1

      You can download music legally using BitTorrent, can't you?

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    2. Re:"Costs the same"??? by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Only certain music, and not what the majority of people want; what is your point?

  6. Why not by neonv · · Score: 1, Insightful

    But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs more than BitTorrent or Limewire, and comes with abominable DRM ...

    It's legal, free, and easy to use. There's three good reasons to switch.

    1. Re:Why not by Hatta · · Score: 1

      But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs more than BitTorrent or Limewire, and comes with abominable DRM ...

      It's legal, free, and easy to use. There's three good reasons to switch.


      Bittorrent is also free and easy to use. And it's only illegal if you get caught. Why should I switch again?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  7. It isn't compleatly doomed to failure by apathy+maybe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because there will always be those who wish to stay one the "right side of the law" (for whatever reason). However, considering it would be incredibly easy to remove ads from either the start or the end of a song, or if embedded in an album to separate the tracks, it will just provide another way for people to get music.

    I don't think they can make any money of the service, so OK I guess it is doomed to failure.

    Personally, I've been listening to ad free (varied full tracks, including big name bands) music legally for a few weeks from Last.fm and I'm quite happy.

    --
    I wank in the shower.
    1. Re:It isn't compleatly doomed to failure by Gravol · · Score: 1

      The quality of files from Bittorrent and especially Limewire often isn't very good. Quality content supported by advertising is a good alternative when you consider that with Cool Edit for audio and Virtual Dub for video, it is easy to edit out the advertising. The edited files can be uploaded as torrents and will do much to improve the piracy experience. Har!

    2. Re:It isn't compleatly doomed to failure by xiong.chiamiov · · Score: 1

      Most of the music I listen to doesn't have any tracks on last.fm. Either that, or you can't dl it, so I can't transfer it to my Creative Zen. Instead, I look at similar artists and fire up limewire, though oftentimes I can't find anything. That's what makes me hopeful for we7.

  8. The Elected Ones by Itninja · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Music downloading types are like electrons. They always take the path of least resistance. You can charge for music downloads, and if it's super easy to do, people will pay it. But if you make the process even slightly more complicated, no one will touch it, even if it's free.

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:The Elected Ones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's the path of least impedance.

    2. Re:The Elected Ones by Itninja · · Score: 1

      Yeah, yeah I know. But that just sounds goofy...

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    3. Re:The Elected Ones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Electrons take many paths at once, and you cannot know which path it will take unless you observe it, and if you do you will be interacting with the situation and so have changed it.

      I think you mean an electric current.

    4. Re:The Elected Ones by Intron · · Score: 1

      My cat just died, damn you!

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    5. Re:The Elected Ones by Eternauta3k · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's the path of least impedance.
      Well really, they take every possible path in inverse proportion to its impedance...
      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    6. Re:The Elected Ones by S.O.B. · · Score: 1

      Mine's alive.

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
  9. Morality is hard to define by MarkByers · · Score: 1

    Not everyone though. Many people think that stealing from thieves is a kind of moral justice.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
    1. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, copyright infringement isn't theft, but neither is what the RIAA does (even less so, in fact!). So, what are you talking about?

      PS: IANAPhilosopher, but as best as I can tell, morality doesn't exist.

    2. Re:Morality is hard to define by BigDumbAnimal · · Score: 1

      ...as best as I can tell, morality doesn't exist. So, go out and cap everyone you can find. There is no morality right?
    3. Re:Morality is hard to define by jswigart · · Score: 0

      I think what he means is along the lines of most people wouldn't have a problem with seeing a bully get his ass kicked, even if its 'immoral' in general to kick someones ass. Morality has context. I haven't downloaded stuff in years, but the only infringement I personally take seriously is that which involves profit on the part of the pirates. The rest is in the same category as jaywalking as far as I'm concerned.

    4. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Going out and capping everyone I can find would violate my personal interests, none of which have to do with morality.

    5. Re:Morality is hard to define by MarkByers · · Score: 1

      As far as I am aware, you can get arrested for doing that. Whether it is moral or not is irrelevant because it's illegal and you will get caught sooner or later.

      You are unlikely to get caught price gouging, or copyright infringing so the law doesn't really enter the equation for either side. In this case, morals is a fall back. If one side acts immoral, the other side has to try that much harder to stay moral. It's very easy to slip into: 'Well if he can be bad and get away with it, I will be bad too.'

      It's human nature.

      --
      I'll probably be modded down for this...
    6. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about whether it's moral or not. I was talking about whether it's theft or not, which is an entirely different subject. I see no reason to qualify the RIAA as "thieves".

    7. Re:Morality is hard to define by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What are your "interests", exactly? You'll be dust in 100 years anyway... why not speed up the process a little?

      If you're like most advanced organisms on this planet, your "interests" are mostly shared with those of your species. If you don't want to call that "morality", you're just playing dumb.

    8. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My interests are defined by whatrever will increase my total happiness over the course of my life. Capping a bunch of people will not, thus, it does not serve my interest.

    9. Re:Morality is hard to define by Intron · · Score: 1

      theft: taking what does not belong to you.

      How hard is that?

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    10. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Theft: taking what does not belong to you without the permission of the person to whom it belongs.

    11. Re:Morality is hard to define by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      theft: taking what does not belong to you.

      How hard is that?


      Simple: once I take it, now it belongs to me.
      Therefore, it's not theft anymore.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    12. Re:Morality is hard to define by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and stealing music from the artists you like, ensuring they have to go get a day job rather than working on a new album.... I just don't see how that is in your interest either?
      "this band rocks! lets make sure they never get the money to record another album!"

    13. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 1

      Going out and capping everyone I can find would violate my personal interests, none of which have to do with morality.
      Interesting statement, too bad you didn't back it up with any sort of an argument. To me, personal interest is the basis for morality, quite possibly the only valid basis. To date I have found no better source for moral behavior than the golden rule, and what is that based on other than personal interest? Of course, most people also extend this concept of of morality beyond simple personal interest, to family, tribe, country, etc. How high you go is a very personal decision, but nearly everyone goes at least to the family level.
      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    14. Re:Morality is hard to define by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's pretty easy. If I take something, such that you are deprived of it, I have stolen something. Otherwise, it's something else, like copyright infringement. But most people have a hard time with the meanings of simple words like "take". Hint: It doesn't mean "make a copy of".

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Morality is hard to define by crabpeople · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The masses are not nessecarily morally correct just by virtue of their greater numbers. Plenty of societies had slaves and human sacrifice. The point you are trying to make that killing is immoral (I assume you mean in most circumstances not all) is a relatively new one. That all people are equal is even newer and certainly not ingrained in most of the worlds people. One could argue that we are genetically predisposed to kill different genetic lines in order for ours to have a better chance at succeeding.

      I would have personally killed many people over my lifetime if there were no legal consequences in doing so. Just because the bible says "thou shalt not kill" and the west is primamrily judeo-christian, doesnt mean that everyone agrees with the dominant philosophy. I personally think that Jesus's morals were weak and that they make you weak. There are no universal "morals".

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    16. Re:Morality is hard to define by Miseph · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Oh God, an egoist... We tried that 20 years ago, it was called the Reagan administration, it was an abject failure, and has been re-popularized by a famous name and a sort of misguided nostalgia. Please, take an entry-level philosophy course or something, get over this rationalized sociopathy.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    17. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Doesn't it suck when you are honest and you get modded Troll?

      That's why I spend all my points upmodding inappropriately downmodded people.

      I get your point and know exactly where you are coming from.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    18. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Unless the person has lost it and you can't find them.

      Or you are the leader of a country and you are "nationalising" someone else's stuff.

      Or you are taking taxes (okay- excessive taxes like the 90% we had in the 1940's)

      Or lots of other exceptions.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    19. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Oh the golden rule can lead to some horrible abuses if you want to be treated in a way that is horrific to others.

      For example, you want to be heroically saved by doctors regardless of how much pain you are in.

      My morality is based on: Voluntary consent by an informed rational person.

      If you don't have voluntary consent, you are probably doing evil to them. People are not really rational until a certain age. And if you have lied or tricked them with false information, then that's not right either.

      Otherwise, pretty much anything is game.

      In the case of file infringing: You don't have the consent of the creator to hand out free copies to other people just because you bought one copy from them. Our society limits that restriction to a certain number of years before the creation is viewed as owned by the public.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    20. Re:Morality is hard to define by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Were you even around during the Reagan era? Can you say Jimmy Carter? Bought my house for 18k and sold it 3 years later for 54k under Jimmy Carter. Had to sell it, couldn't get a job! You have no idea. So when you bash Reagan you should at least do so for the right reason if there are any. Was he perfect? no, but he was better than any president we have had in your lifetime, or mine. But I forget, the balanced left is fair and just, there just hasn't been a good Republican president since Lincoln.

    21. Re:Morality is hard to define by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if people would get over their party loyalties and vote for the best candidate we wouldn't have so many issues like this. Flaming the "other side" does nothing but make you look like an opinionated jackass. If you can't be more detailed in your criticism than picking out an entire half of the political spectrum, you shouldn't be criticizing anyone.

    22. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh the golden rule can lead to some horrible abuses if you want to be treated in a way that is horrific to others. For example, you want to be heroically saved by doctors regardless of how much pain you are in.

      I didn't say it was perfect, just that I hadn't yet found anything better. The golden rule is fantastic because it is simple and obvious, you can quickly determine a course of action, and live your life. For more complex scenarios, the golden rule may fall down, but in those cases you also usually have more time to mull it over. However, in your example case, I think the golden rule still works. Personally, I want people to respect my decisions, particularly regarding my own fate, and I believe that most people feel likewise. Therefore, if I was a doctor, and a patient had told me ahead of time that they do not want some specific procedure performed, even if it would otherwise mean death, then I believe it would be immoral for me to perform the procedure anyway against the patient's wishes. This is actually seen all the time in actual practice. Now, if it is an emergency situation and you have not had time to communicate with the patient ahead of time regarding their wishes, then you just have to use your best judgment, based on what you would want in that situation. Obviously, anytime you try to guess someone else's wishes it is fraught with peril (and potential lawsuits), which is why doctor's are usually ultra-conservative, and try to save the person's life, regardless of it's a good idea or if they would personally want that.

      My morality is based on: Voluntary consent by an informed rational person.

      My god, how do you ever get anything done? Are you constantly questioning people over the simplest things in order to get their consent? For example, how do you decide not to ram your cart into other people at the supermarket? Do you ask each and every person that you come to whether they would consent to a cart-ramming? Or do you instead make assumptions on what you think their answer will be, possibly based on what you yourself would want in similar circumstances (i.e. the golden rule)? For that matter, how do you decide that no-cart-ramming is preferable to cart-ramming? Is it again based on your own preferences? How in the world can you decided if someone else is "rational" and "informed"? Doesn't that preclude you from dealing with most people that you encounter? If you decided that someone is not rational or informed enough, do you go ahead and ram them with your cart? If not, why not? How else do you deal with those who are not rational or informed? Can you never do anything "nice" for them? How does your morality determine what is nice or not-nice (right and wrong)?

      If you and another "rational, informed" person voluntarily consent that it is okay to throw rocks at squirrels for fun, does that make it moral?

      If you don't have voluntary consent, you are probably doing evil to them.

      Interesting assertion, do you have any arguments to back it up? What about the case where you need to do things without someone's consent in order to prevent harm to others? Is it moral for the government to collect taxes from its populace? Most people do not voluntarily consent to pay taxes, they do it under threat of severe penalties.

      People are not really rational until a certain age.

      And usually not even then (besides, who chooses what age?). Humans aren't rational, they are rationalizing. Can you prove to me that you are rational? At all times, on all subjects?

      In the case of file infringing: You don't have the consent of the creator to hand out free copies to other people just because you bought one copy from them.

      Under your morality, why do you even need the creator's consent? There seems to be an assumption on your part that the creator has more r

      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    23. Re:Morality is hard to define by Omestes · · Score: 1

      And I firmly believe that 30% of people are sociopaths, which you admit you are.

      Yes, the definition of "human" has changed with time, and only recently have blacks, women, and people who don't own property have joined this elite cabal of fully human. But if you went to a slave holder and asked them to kill a random white property owner, their morality would have stepped in the way. Ethics are universal, it just depends on who we accord worthiness to that is variable with time.

      I personally have a hard time killing fish (I now fish without bait, to eliminate this problem) or animals, much less people. Animals and fish assuredly are not human, and there is nothing bad that can happen to me for killing them, but still I accord them some feelings. I empathize. Empathy is the key, which is why we (humans) are historically ethical (lets ditch the term moral, its different) towards members that they can identify with, generally by proximity and similarity. We can actually talk about the evolutionary merits of reciprocity and altruism (I recommend starting with Dawkins or Shermer), where it IS advantageous to evolve with an ethical system. It is innate, empathy, and those who don't have it are pathological.

      Morals are handed down from some mythical big brother, ethics up from you genes AND society.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    24. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      If i want to ram their cards (odd compulsion), then yea, I'd probably need to ask them if it is okay or else I'm forcing myself on them.

      >Interesting assertion, do you have any arguments to back it up?
      Just my conclusion. But it seems more reasonable than "a big imaginary guy said it is bad". As you say for your golden rule, it's not perfect but it's the best I've found.

      >Under your morality, why do you even need the creator's consent?
      Because it's their stuff?

      >Now you are pushing off responsibility for your morals onto "society."

      This is a good point, just as a creator could create something and NEVER EVER share it - and in fact destroy the creation before they died. You could argue that they have a right to their creation period.

      However, "society" says, "we will spend resources to protect you from theft and in exchange you don't hold on to this forever." Just like "society" says, "Pay taxes and we will have people protect you from being murdered in your sleep" (i.e. Hobbe's Leviathan social contract). We are mostly born into the social contract-- if we break it, we will probably be punished. Up until a couple hundred years ago, we had the "option" to leave society and go elsewhere. You really do now too- there are plenty of desolate areas. You'll probably starve or die of an illness earlier but you will have freedom (and a lot of loneliness).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    25. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 1
      Hmm, you seem to have ignored the vast majority of what I said. I suspect that you have not really thought out your moral system.

      If i want to ram their cards (odd compulsion)
      Why is it an odd compulsion according to your morality? What about your morality says that non-cart ramming is better than cart ramming?

      But it seems more reasonable than "a big imaginary guy said it is bad".
      That's a strawman in this discussion, who mentioned a big imaginary guy? I said that the golden rule (not my golden rule by the way, it was thought up thousands of years before Christ, by many different cultures) was the best basis for morality I've yet found. You derided this, and proposed your own superior (in your view) alternate basis for morality, however you have yet to explain how it is superior, or even generally useful.

      Because it's their stuff?
      "Theirs" in what sense? It is quite impossible to own an idea once it is shared. It is like a candle flame, I can light my candle from your flame, and yours is not diminished in the slightest. I could then pass on my flame, without diminishing either of ours. Of course, society could pass laws forbidding the passing on of flames by anyone but the original candle lighter, however this artificial monopoly is not the same thing as that person owning all flames. Besides, I asked how it follows from your morality that it is wrong to pass on a copy without the creator's consent, and I asked many other qualifying questions as well, all which are unanswered.

      just as a creator could create something and NEVER EVER share it - and in fact destroy the creation before they died. You could argue that they have a right to their creation period.
      You have hit upon the one scenario where a creator actually owns their creation: when they never share it with anyone and keep it only to themselves. Then (and only then) can they be said to own it. However, once they pass it on to even one person, they lose that complete control. I also mentioned before that no one creates in a vacuum. For example, several Disney motion pictures are based on older fairy tales, and there have been numerous motion pictures made from Shakespeare's plays. Do these "creators" fully, unequivocally, and morally "own" their creations?

      However, "society" says, "we will spend resources to protect you from theft and in exchange you don't hold on to this forever." Just like "society" says, "Pay taxes and we will have people protect you from being murdered in your sleep"
      And I asked you, how is this moral according to your stated moral system? I know the answer for my moral system, however I wanted to hear your moral justification. For example, I pointed out that according to my understanding of your moral system, taxes are immoral (not being a matter of voluntary consent).

      We are mostly born into the social contract-- if we break it, we will probably be punished. Up until a couple hundred years ago, we had the "option" to leave society and go elsewhere.
      Nonsense, people break laws they don't agree with all the time, such as speeding, copyright infringement, recreational drug use, sex statutes (is it illegal in your state to get a blowjob?), and yes, even tax laws, and these frequently go uncaught and unpunished. Besides, I wasn't asking if you think we have a choice to follow society's rules, I was asking if societies rules are moral and if so, why? Hint: following rules because you will be punished if you don't is not morality.
      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    26. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Okay... Let's take your prior and current post point by point since I did start this by responding to you.

      >I didn't say it was perfect, just that I hadn't yet found anything better. The golden rule is fantastic because it is simple and obvious, you can quickly determine a course of action, and live your life.
      Point 1:
      How dare a person assume that because they don't like something, I shouldn't like it.
      Maybe I want to be be beaten with a whip- the pain of people rejecting this need tortures me and makes me want to commit suicide while I am completely happy if someone fulfills that need.
      Maybe I like and can handle drugs.
      Maybe I don't WANT to be noticed and applauded. God I've seen two very shy people in the last six months absolutely TORTURED by people who used golden rule logic to push these people until they were on the verge of tears.
      It's so "simple and obvious" by the values you were brought up by your parents.
      There are MANY different moral systems and you may inflict terrible injury or insult by applying the golden rule.
      Do your best to determine what the people need and want and let them do that unless it injures you or someone else involuntarily.

      For more complex scenarios, the golden rule may fall down, but in those cases you also usually have more time to mull it over. However, in your example case, I think the golden rule still works. Personally, I want people to respect my decisions, particularly regarding my own fate, and I believe that most people feel likewise. Therefore, if I was a doctor, and a patient had told me ahead of time that they do not want some specific procedure performed, even if it would otherwise mean death, then I believe it would be immoral for me to perform the procedure anyway against the patient's wishes.
      Point 2:
      Then I'm not sure you are not practicing the golden rule- but you are instead practicing my reasoned.
      The golden rule is :Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
      Lots of people use this as a great justification to control other people. Since "no one wants to be cuckolded", "no one wants to destroy their life with drugs", "no one wants to be seen as unpatriotic", etc. etc.
      It sounds like your golden rule includes first listening to what they want, and then giving them what they want- not what you would want in the same situation.

      This is actually seen all the time in actual practice. Now, if it is an emergency situation and you have not had time to communicate with the patient ahead of time regarding their wishes, then you just have to use your best judgment, based on what you would want in that situation. Obviously, anytime you try to guess someone else's wishes it is fraught with peril (and potential lawsuits), which is why doctor's are usually ultra-conservative, and try to save the person's life, regardless of it's a good idea or if they would personally want that.
      I agree: This is a tricky situation. If you cannot communicate, you do the best you can. And when they become conscious again, you understand that they control their own destiny again. Lately our society is starting to require medical treatments to people who want to refuse them. Based on the golden rule.

      My morality is based on: Voluntary consent by an informed rational person.

      My god, how do you ever get anything done? Are you constantly questioning people over the simplest things in order to get their consent?
      Point 3:
      Not really. Remember, you usually only come down to hard morality in tricky situations. 99% of life is not tricky situations. However, instead of assuming what people want me to do, I typically ask them what they want. Now the screwy part is that SOME people can't say what they want and desire that you assume. And punish you if you guess wrong- but really like you if you guess right (typically in a relationship).

      For example, how do you decide not to ram your cart into other people at the supermarket?
      Do you ask each and every pe

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    27. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Allow me to point out the only two possible scenarios if I like the band and want their music:

      1) I like the band and buy their CD for $15. The record label adds this to their Big Pot o'Money. If this Big Pot o'Money is full enough, the artist will produce another CD.
      2) I like the band and infringe on their copyright. No money goes to the record label. If their Big Pot o'Money is full enough, the artist will produce another CD.

      It's extremely unlikely that my $15 will be the deciding factor. And don't give me the bullshit "if everyone thought that way..." argument that people use to get other people to go vote. It's simply logically ridiculous.

    28. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      OK, if you define morality as "personal interests", then I suppose I'm just as moral as everyone else.

      But how in the world is the golden rule based on personal interests? It's based on upholding other people's interests, using what I would feel in that situation as an approximation of those people's interests. It has nothing to do with serving my own. "Serving my own interests" is sociopathy, definitely not the golden rule.

      P.S. I am not a sociopath, which is probably genetically determined. I simply wish I were.

    29. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      True. The point is that the definition of "theft" is too narrow to include copyright infringement.

    30. Re:Morality is hard to define by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Ethics are universal, it just depends... Is it universal or isn't it? If it's universal, it doesn't "depend". Period.

      Care to give an argument as to why it's universal?
    31. Re:Morality is hard to define by Omestes · · Score: 1

      You took that out of context... The full statement was . Think of it as a formula:

      If [human], then act according to x.

      This is understandable since humans (on the whole) do not operate towards each others with the same principles as they do towards animals, or any other non-human thing. So x is invariant, while [human] varies by time and culture, thus ethics (x) is going to be somewhat situational.

      By which meaning of "universal" do you mean? That it applies to EVERYONE? I can't do that, since as said who is in this class varies. But in the sense that we operate under some root ethical parameters, that is easier. We can see it in the universality of altruism, and reciprocity, which both fall in some form under Kant's Categorical Imperative. I doubt this answered your question, sorry, it is 3:30a.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    32. Re:Morality is hard to define by mpe · · Score: 1

      For example, several Disney motion pictures are based on older fairy tales,

      As well as other identifiable earlier works

      and there have been numerous motion pictures made from Shakespeare's plays.

      Quite a few of his plays are based on stories popular around 400 years ago anyway.

    33. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I agree there. Theft may be applied to a lot of things but they are creating a new meaning of the word to conflate it with infringing copyright.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    34. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 1

      Point 1: How dare a person assume that because they don't like something, I shouldn't like it.

      This is a mis-application and mis-understanding of the golden rule. Every tool can be abused or turned into a weapon, the golden rule is no exception to this. As I originally said, the golden rule is the basis for my moral system, it is not a complete system in itself. I.e. some thinking is required too. For example:

      1. Everyone has different wants, desires, preferences, etc.

      2. I want people to respect my wants/desires/preferences, at least regarding my own person, in lieu of their own wants/desires/preferences.

      3. Therefore, by the golden rule, I should respect others wants/desires/preferences regarding their own person, ahead of my own wants/desires/preferences.

      4. If another's wants/desires/preferences are unknown (for example, you just met them), then using my own wants/desires/preferences as an approximation for theirs (using the golden rule here again) is a reasonable assumption until their wants/desires/preferences are known. Obviously this is inferior to using their own wants/desires/preferences, so an effort should be made to determine their wants/desires/preferences as early as possible.

      Maybe I want to be be beaten with a whip- the pain of people rejecting this need tortures me and makes me want to commit suicide while I am completely happy if someone fulfills that need.

      So by your moral system you go around asking everyone that you meet if they would like to be beaten with a whip? The golden rule doesn't fall down here either (actually, its more like the silver rule in this case). Since I don't believe that someone else has the right to make arbitrary demands upon me (i.e. to whip them), then I also don't believe that it is right for me to make arbitrary demands upon them. I also do not believe that everyone else in the world has an obligation to try to make me happy or fulfill my every want/need/desire. There is a big difference between respecting someone else's wants, and having an obligation to fulfill them.

      Maybe I like and can handle drugs.

      That's fine with me and my moral system.

      Maybe I don't WANT to be noticed and applauded. God I've seen two very shy people in the last six months absolutely TORTURED by people who used golden rule logic to push these people until they were on the verge of tears.

      Again, this is a mis-application of the golden rule. The people should have asked the shy people if they would like to be formally recognized and applauded, and likewise the shy people should have made it clear ahead of time if possible that they do not welcome this kind of attention.

      It's so "simple and obvious" by the values you were brought up by your parents.

      No, it is so simple and obvious that it was thought up independently by many different cultures many thousands of years ago. I'll leave additional research to you.

      Do your best to determine what the people need and want and let them do that unless it injures you or someone else involuntarily.

      Aha! How, exactly, do you "determine what the people need and want", especially if you have never met them before? How does your moral system handle cases where you cannot get "voluntary consent" on all issues?

      Point 2: Then I'm not sure you are not practicing the golden rule- but you are instead practicing my reasoned.

      No, see my above analysis. As I said, your reasoning appears to be a subset of the golden rule, however your limited reasoning misses out on the larger benefits and applications of the golden rule. In addition, my reasoning makes no exceptions for those who are "irrational" or "uninformed", however you are supposed to determine those qualities in another human being.

      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    35. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 1

      But how in the world is the golden rule based on personal interests?
      Try researching game theory, starting with the iterated prisoner's dilemma and the tit for tat strategy. This may show you that there is actually quite a bit of personal benefit involved in following a similar strategy, which the golden rule is a key part of. Another argument rests on consistency and fairness. Do you want other people to respect your personal desires? Why should they, if you are not willing to do the same for them? Therefore it is in your personal interest to follow the golden rule in order to encourage others to do likewise.
      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    36. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      After reading the Wiki, I still have the problem I often do with these "interpretations" of religious statements.

      The words are very clear. The way people use them is frequently based exactly on those words- not on handy external interpretations that say they mean something different.

      My reasoned morality needs less interpretation. It says more clearly what the "interpretation" of the golden rule says the golden rule means.

      You believe the interpretation of the golden rule, not the literal words- great!

      If just a few people had their understanding of that interpretation increased so they don't harm others out of good intentions then this discussion was productive.

      I agree: This is a tricky situation. If you cannot communicate, you do the best you can.
      >Bases on what criteria?

      Observed preferences of the majority of the population. Most people prefer to live over dying. Most people prefer to keep their limbs over being amputated. Given that the person can't communicate, I have to make a rational judgment based on the best information that I have. It gets very difficult in situations where I can't even determine what folks would generally want.

      Point 3: Not really. Remember, you usually only come down to hard morality in tricky situations. 99% of life is not tricky situations.

      >And what do you base your morality on in these "simple" situations?

      I don't consider them moral situations. Lots of things are really not moral situations.

      And what if that is not an option?
      This rarely occurs in my life. When it does and I have to take my "best guess", the odds of them being upset or angry are much higher because they were not asked.

      Point 5: This mostly comes to fore in contractual disagreements.
      >No, you identified it as part of the basis for your moral system, so in your case it is a moral question.

      No, my personal opinion on how to treat creators of property is subservient to the social contract. My personal morality does not apply to the law. I can try to get the law changed to reflect my morality if I care enough. Our current social contract says very explicitly that those ideas are property of the creator for a restricted number of years. Once it establishes the axioms of society, then my morality comes into play.

      Point 8: Mostly good points on your part. However, when taken holistically, I think we can tell when most people are rational and when they are clearly insane. In between is a continuum.

      So where do you draw the line? In order for your moral system to work you must be able to quickly an easily determine if a person is reasonable (and informed) about a certain issue and in a certain situation. How do you accomplish this?

      No. This cuts back to your requirement of "perfection" which is impossible and which you do not enforce on your own preferred moral basis. I do not agree that a moral system has to be perfect. If it was possible to have a perfect moral system, it would have happened.

      And the point of my original comment that started this mess was that the basic statement of the golden rule is horribly abusable and is abused horribly on a regular basis. While you can point to a 5 page Wiki link for the "correct" interpretation- the fact is those basic words are all most people hear and they use them to do a lot of bad stuff. You could drop all the interpretation and have a clear statement not as easy to abuse:
      "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you--unless they do not want you to."

      (Creators rights of ownership including never sharing it)
      Another assumption. Where does this right come from?

      We live under a social contract. Some bright people including Jefferson negotiated a deal for society with creators in general and said, "We will give you a right to your ideas and creations as property for a limited time if you will share those ideas and creations with society more often. We understand that without this right, you would create

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    37. Re:Morality is hard to define by Laur · · Score: 1
      This really is getting far too long, so I'll just make a few points.

      After reading the Wiki, I still have the problem I often do with these "interpretations" of religious statements.

      There is nothing religious about the golden rule, although most religious incorporate it in some form (for the record, I'm a weak atheist). Besides, I think you're being unreasonable in demanding that a single idea be a complete moral system in itself. As I said, it is just part of the basis for a moral system. There are other assumptions and ideas involved as well, such as that all people should have equal rights, and the concept of empathy.

      The words are very clear.

      What words? As the wiki made abundantly clear, the ethic of reciprocity has been stated in many, many different forms. However, like most things it requires some thought to use it properly.

      The way people use them is frequently based exactly on those words- not on handy external interpretations that say they mean something different.

      What about my analysis was external? As I clearly stated, I want people to respect my wants/preferences/desires, and so the golden rule, in any form, states that I should respect theirs in turn. This is clearly addressed in the "Not a 'rule' in specifics" and "tolerance" section of the wiki. Besides, I already made the point that just because some people misuse a tool or turn it into a weapon, doesn't mean that the tool is flawed. The flaws usually lie in the person, not the tool.

      My reasoned morality needs less interpretation.

      Huh? "Voluntary consent by an informed rational person" doesn't needs less interpretation? How about the huge gaping holes of "rational" and "informed"? Sorry, but this just doesn't hold up.

      I don't consider them moral situations. Lots of things are really not moral situations.

      Way to dodge the question. Morality encompasses basic right and wrong. I asked where your basic concepts for right and wrong come from. Observed behavior is a poor basis for morality. This is easily shown by looking at cultures that treat minorities or women far worse than majority men. By just observing behavior you would conclude that this was absolutely moral.

      No. This cuts back to your requirement of "perfection" which is impossible and which you do not enforce on your own preferred moral basis. I do not agree that a moral system has to be perfect. If it was possible to have a perfect moral system, it would have happened.

      I never made any requirement of "perfection," so don't put it in quotes if you're not actually quoting me. That's called a strawman. Your moral system is, and I quote: "Voluntary consent by an informed rational person". I have repeatedly asked how you determine if someone is rational or informed on a certain topic in a certain situation, and you have repeatedly dodged the issue. Since I do not impose this requirement in my moral system, I do not have to defend it.

      Bull. Society has all kinds of morals and they are subject to change. Don't be obtuse.

      Really? Where can I go look up a list of society's morals? How can it possibly be true that a society made up of millions of people, each with their own individual moral systems, has a common moral system?

      You were not part of the negotiations of how many pieces of rat dropping can be in your chocolate either. You don't have enough lifespan to negotiate all the rules that keep you safe and healthy. Some people spend their entire lives enforcing obscure rules that keep you alive. In return, you grant that other people will negotiate rules that you don't like so much.

      That may be, but your statement that "Societies morals are based on a negotiation between all members" is patently false. Laws are made

      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    38. Re:Morality is hard to define by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Interesting discussion.

      You've given me things to consider and made me consider some things a little more precisely.

      I am reading and considering your last post but agree it is time to move on so letting your post stand as our closing positions..

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  10. Removing the ads by koreaman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If I wrote a program to cut off the first ten seconds (or whatever) of these songs, removing the ads, would that be legal or not?

    1. Re:Removing the ads by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1

      I'm certain that the T&C would include something that prohibited this. If it didn't, these guys are complete morons.

    2. Re:Removing the ads by saur2004 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Isnt Audacity free for anyone to use?

      How are they going to stop you using something like that?

    3. Re:Removing the ads by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Assuming I don't care about the law, this would still be cool as it'd be a place where I can easily find good copies of songs (well, good after I take the ads out), no more searching on P2P networks, no more paying iTunes or similar beasts! It'd be just as illegal, but I don't care.

    4. Re:Removing the ads by mhall119 · · Score: 1

      It won't, and that's not even the point. The point is that even if you listened to the ad the first time, even if you just listened to it in Audacity so you can cut it out, that's still exposure. Even if you then put that ad-free song on P2P networks, some people would still rather download it legally with the ad, than illegally without it.

      From a business perspective, every ad-embedded download is almost guaranteed to result in at least one exposure for the advertiser. That's a better guarantee rate than Television or Radio. If that kind of exposure is enough to pay the royalties on the song plus some, then it's a profitable business.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    5. Re:Removing the ads by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      If it didn't, these guys are complete morons.

      C'mon. This is the recording industry we're talking about here...

    6. Re:Removing the ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take an checksum of the first 100 bits of the file (if that's where the ad is), check it against a hash table, find the length of the ad, chop it automatically. I mean come on, I hope this takes off. Free music. They get you at the download *if* they get ya. Even if they graft it to a portion of the song; if one has a clean version of the ad, one could flip the wave over and add it through superposition to get rid of it.

    7. Re:Removing the ads by mhall119 · · Score: 1

      That would require either constantly updating your hash table, or using some constantly updated source on the internet. Think of the number of commercials on TV and Radio, and how often new ones, or even modified ones, are introduced. Who would want to be tasked with keeping that table up to date?

      Wouldn't it just be easier to listen to the 5 second jingle?

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    8. Re:Removing the ads by dheera · · Score: 1

      Exactly. So long as this country (and the rest of most of the developed world) holds up to the usual common ideals, there should be nothing illegal about editing and toying with the disc you own for personal use only. this means not sharing it back, not sharing programs to do it, and so on. under those circumstances, i don't see why i can't write myself a script to do this all by myself. after all, the contents of my hard drive are my property. they may not be my intellectual property, but they are my physical property, and as long as i'm not recirculating or affecting others, they should be mine to do whatever i want to do with. that said, if that act becomes illegal, i'll be really upset about the law.

    9. Re:Removing the ads by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Audacity? Wouldn't that reencode the mp3s? You want to use something like mp3-splt

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Removing the ads by ReeceTarbert · · Score: 1
      Why bother removing the ads?

      1) The ad is about 10 seconds long and it's placed at the beginning of the song;

      2) If you want a track with no ad, you have the option to buy the track at normal price;

      Last but not least, and I haven't seen this mentioned so far:

      3) After a period of time (4 weeks) you will have the choice to download the track 'ad free'.

    11. Re:Removing the ads by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Last but not least, and I haven't seen this mentioned so far:

      3) After a period of time (4 weeks) you will have the choice to download the track 'ad free'.

      Irrelevant. The reason why people download a song in the first place instead of, say, buying or borrowing a CD is because this is 2007, and people want and expect instant gratification. Waiting 4 weeks? Bollocks.
      P2P is so much faster (and less work too). So what exactly is the value?
    12. Re:Removing the ads by ReeceTarbert · · Score: 1
      Hmmm... let's see... that We7 makes it legal while getting music via P2P (in most cases) it's not? ;-)

      If you don't like the idea of (temporarily) ad-supported, non-DRMed music than you can also *legally* share with others, that's fine. Saying that you can get the same (and a lot more, I'd wager) via P2P, on the other hand, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

  11. How much did you get paid, CNET ? by unity100 · · Score: 0

    "But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements.'"

    yea. im not gonna switch to a service that is FREE, just because there are some ads around. yea you got that right. definitely. instead im gonna pay for the same thing like a moron.

    You can quote me on this , CNEt, you are going to eat your words.
    1. Re:How much did you get paid, CNET ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bittorrent and limewire are free too, genius. I'd be careful about calling people morons if I were you.

    2. Re:How much did you get paid, CNET ? by FLEB · · Score: 1

      It's clear you didn't understand the statement-- Limewire, BitTorrent: also "free" (barring lawsuit liability) and no ads.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    3. Re:How much did you get paid, CNET ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

      i might have been hasty allright.

  12. In my day.... by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmmm....interesting concept....you listen to tunes which have commercial messages attached. They might even put the ads over the first or last few seconds to avoid ruining the entire track, but still have the ads embedded.

    In my day we called that "commercial radio".

    --
    Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    1. Re:In my day.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Hmmm....interesting concept....you listen to tunes which have commercial messages attached. "This redition of "Don't Fear the Reaper" is brought to you by the State Association of Funeral Homes."
  13. And furthermore... by Tarlus · · Score: 1

    "But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements."

    While I agree that the concept of ad-supported download services would be a failure, the presence of ads won't be the reason.

    I'm sure plenty of people would just as soon use the ad-infested service just for the sake of legitimacy. Hell, I would, just to say I was downloading music legally. Limewire is notorious enough as an effective malware injector. BitTorrent is a tad more daunting to the average user who just wants to get a song or two. And both methods teeter on questionable legality.

    --
    /* No Comment */
  14. Hmm by Stormx2 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it be relatively easy to slice the first 10 seconds of ads out, prepend the magic bits / id3 tags, and stuff? That'd be legal too, seeing as we7.com is paying the copyright trolls.

  15. Been done before by david.given · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember this from amp3.com, a defunct and unlamented mp3.com clone.

    I've still got a couple of tracks somewhere with the amp3.com ad header on them; however, it turned out that they had stuck the header on by directly fiddling with the mp3 stream, and simply by running the file through a mp3 sanitiser, the header would magically vanish.

    I wish we7 lots of luck, but if I were to start using them I'd damn well write an ad removal program.

  16. disingenuous? by owlnation · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This negative review - of course - has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with CNET owning mp3.com does it?

    I mean why would it? Must be a coincidence, surely...

  17. Removing adverts is not legal by MarkByers · · Score: 1

    > That'd be legal too, seeing as we7.com is paying the copyright trolls.

    It's not legal, because you are making an unauthorized derived work.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
    1. Re:Removing adverts is not legal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is that illegal if you don't (re)distribute it?

  18. Notable advertising failures. by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At some point, ads get too intrusive. Some notable failures:

    • Ad cards bound into paperback books. That was tried in the 1980s, and customers were so angry publishers stopped that, and it didn't come back.
    • Ads during telephone ring. Yes, little blipverts between each ring. Tried around 2000. That came and went so fast few ever heard one.
    • Fast food table clutter. Little stand-up things with ads on every table. The fast food industry has mostly backed off from that since the 1990s; not many sales and too much hassle.
    • The big one - sound trucks. 1930s idea, around the time amplifiers started really working. Trucks driving around blaring ads. That was so obnoxious it was made a criminal offense in most US states.

    Besides, music already has ads. 50 Cent mentioned 20 brands in his songs in 2005, according to American Brandstand. "Mercedes emerged as the top brand of the year, and 50 Cent outbranded the rest to become the top brand-dropping artist... Meanwhile, weapon brands surged..."

    1. Re:Notable advertising failures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Notable advertising successes:
      • Short vignettes inserted in the middle of pictobox serials
    2. Re:Notable advertising failures. by griebels2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Maybe it would be more interesting to see why they failed:

      Ad cards bound into paperback books. That was tried in the 1980s, and customers were so angry publishers stopped that, and it didn't come back.
      Is this because the people that received those books already paid for them? For most people, books are things to stay, things to collect and having ads in them destroys the perception of value.

      Ads during telephone ring. Yes, little blipverts between each ring. Tried around 2000. That came and went so fast few ever heard one.
      If I'm paying for this call per minute, I'm not going to forgive anybody trying to get a cent extra out of me by pushing advertisements to me.

      Fast food table clutter. Little stand-up things with ads on every table. The fast food industry has mostly backed off from that since the 1990s; not many sales and too much hassle.
      You still see them in almost any Burger King restaurant I know of. Altough they seem to contain mostly propaganda for their own brand.

      The big one - sound trucks. 1930s idea, around the time amplifiers started really working. Trucks driving around blaring ads. That was so obnoxious it was made a criminal offense in most US states.

      I'm not asking for this sound truck to drive trough my street. Most advertisement can be easily avoided if you don't want to be hit by it. You can switch off your TV, not visit that spammy web site, etc. You cannot just turn off this sound truck. This is also why e-mail spam is becomming increasingly illegal in countries all over the world.

      To be honest, I don't see any reason why advertising-based music downloads are not going to work. Commercial radio and TV has an abundance of advertising, yet those forms of media are still quite viable. User-acceptance will rely on how easy this service is to use and how many artificial limitations there will be (like downloading a maximum of 5 songs/hour/day/from the same artist).

      The question I have is whether or not advertisers are really getting any real advantage out of those advertisements. So I think the gamble will be more on advertiser-acceptance than on user-acceptance.

    3. Re:Notable advertising failures. by Mex · · Score: 1

      Wow, the Blaring trucks with amplifiers are still used here in Mexico.

    4. Re:Notable advertising failures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Missing from the list are two intrusive ads: browser pop-ups and billboards. Both have groups actively working to get rid of them (so far unsuccessfully).

      You eat at Burger King? Two questions:

      a) Did the creepy king ads appeal to you?

      b) How much do you weigh?

    5. Re:Notable advertising failures. by griebels2 · · Score: 1

      Most serious sites got rid of those annoying popups long ago. CNN.com seems to be an exception, it shoves me a popup asking me if I prefer the "international" or the "censored^Wamerican" version, depending on which location on this planet I try to access their site.

      Billboards are difficult beasts to get rid off. Most billboards are situated on land owned by/leased to the advertising company and are subjected to local rules and permits.

      a) Did the creepy king ads appeal to you? I rather go for plastic kings than plastic clowns with a craze for little children.

      b) How much do you weigh? Somewhere around 180 lbs/83 kg at a height of about 73" / 189 cm. You also want to know other sizes? Do you prefer them in imperial or metric?
    6. Re:Notable advertising failures. by rabiddeity · · Score: 1

      Sound trucks are still prevalent here in Japan. Pachinko parlors use them quite frequently, along with the militant right-wing weirdos in their black vans. And just last week the folks running for public office in my neighborhood were driving around in vans with loudspeakers shouting at the top of their lungs. Made me want to take a baseball bat to the damn things. Consider yourself lucky they don't exist in the US anymore.

    7. Re:Notable advertising failures. by porcupine8 · · Score: 1

      Ugh, related to that last one, one that I hope is listed as a failure soon: Billboard trucks. Have you seen these? They're trucks with nothing on the back but a big flat sign with ads on both sides. Yay! Advertising that pollutes AND makes traffic worse! I actually haven't seen any of these in the past year, so maybe that's a good sign - or maybe they're just more popular in the south, where I no longer live.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    8. Re:Notable advertising failures. by mpe · · Score: 1

      I'm not asking for this sound truck to drive trough my street. Most advertisement can be easily avoided if you don't want to be hit by it. You can switch off your TV, not visit that spammy web site, etc. You cannot just turn off this sound truck. This is also why e-mail spam is becomming increasingly illegal in countries all over the world.

      The difference is a pump action shotgun will probably deal with a "sound truck". It's kind of hard to remotly destroy the source of spam.

    9. Re:Notable advertising failures. by mpe · · Score: 1

      Sound trucks are still prevalent here in Japan.

      Possibly because of the lack of private firearms in Japan. Whereas they are common in the US.

      Made me want to take a baseball bat to the damn things. Consider yourself lucky they don't exist in the US anymore.

      It's rather easier to make such a truck "baseball bat resistant" as opposed to "shotgun resistant". You also don't need to be capable of running as fast as the truck is going.

    10. Re:Notable advertising failures. by mpe · · Score: 1

      Ugh, related to that last one, one that I hope is listed as a failure soon: Billboard trucks. Have you seen these? They're trucks with nothing on the back but a big flat sign with ads on both sides.

      There are also billboard trailers. Where the trailers can range in size from something pulled by a small car to something needing a big truck.

      Yay! Advertising that pollutes AND makes traffic worse!

      They might be intended to be parked, rather than advertise on the move.

  19. Flawed Analysis by malsdavis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    By the article author's calculations, all paid music services are doomed to failure, not just free ad-supported ones.

    From TFA:
    "don't waste your time in thinking this is going to do anything positive to the industry"

    I've heard that so many times about services which have actually revolutionised industries, many of those services are no longer in business but that didn't stop them being positive influences on the industry.

    Case in point: A few years ago in the U.K., Altavista advertised an flat-rate, £10 a year internet service at a time when virtually all domestic ISPs only offered per-minute deals. Several other ISPs then started offering competing flat-rate offers.

    The Altavista service never even ended up launching, but it had already caused other ISPs to offer cheap flat-rate deals. As a result, Altavista are often credited with helping to give the U.K. some of the cheapest internet deals in the world.

    Maybe this service won't be a massive hit, but to instantly dismiss an innovative idea is extremely stupid!

    1. Re:Flawed Analysis by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 1

      I've heard that so many times about services which have actually revolutionised industries, many of those services are no longer in business but that didn't stop them being positive influences on the industry... Maybe this service won't be a massive hit, but to instantly dismiss an innovative idea is extremely stupid!

      i agree. sometimes the first few iterations of an idea need to crash and burn before the market leaders can lead the way... like the monkeys they shoot into space to test the waters for space travel.

      --
      sarcasm:
      -noun
      1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
    2. Re:Flawed Analysis by BumBiscuit · · Score: 1

      You don't even have to go that far afield to find a good example of defunct services that were revolutionary. Just look at Napster -- the original Napster, mind you, not the pale, Roxio-owned imitation of today. Though long gone, the Napster of yore did more to drive the popularity of the MP3 format than any other factor. Additionally, it introduced hundreds of thousands of users to peer-to-peer, many of them people who previously did little more with their computers than e-mail and Word Processing.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une sig.
    3. Re:Flawed Analysis by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      Hmm, not sure why I didn't think of Napster. Your right, it is the obvious choice.

  20. Extortion racket? by Garry+Anderson · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Quote: Even EMI -- the first of the Big Four to release music without any DRM -- basically said, "If you don't want DRM, pay more for you music."

    Pay more to remove something that shouldn't be there anyway - something THEY added to stop you having fair use of the music.

    Seems like an extortion racket to me.

  21. Doomed to Failure? by minotaurcomputing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements."

    Broadcast radio has followed this model since the beginning and it didn't hurt them until "commercial-free" paid services came on the scenes. What would have probably been better for the record industry is the inclusion of ads in songs and albums from the early days of records. That way they could have now charged a premium for ad-free music and made a killing. Ahhhh, but hindsight is 20x20.

    -m

    1. Re:Doomed to Failure? by FLEB · · Score: 1

      it didn't hurt them until "commercial-free" paid services came on the scenes

      I think you meant "alternatives to the bland, top-down managed, lowest-common-denominator 'hit machine' based homogenized national advertisements" came on the scene. IMO, radio is killing itself through a slow wasting process of terminal mediocrity. It just took a bright alternative to throw it into contrast.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
  22. Prefixed with an ad by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    The catch to UK-based We7.com's music download service is that every single DRM-free track comes embedded with an audible pre-roll advertisement. That's right: every track. At the moment all the ads are default We7 ads, which are painfully akin to the very worst local FM radio station's ident jingle. With added "Don't steal!" messages.
    We7 claims that after listening to ads four or five times, they'll disappear from your music. That's interesting, considering the files are in MP3 format and as such are incapable of supporting such a method.
    - well, either the reporter is wrong and this is not MP3 format, or this is MP3 format and the We7 are going to provide their own player that will skip the ad.

    In any case this is retarded, the prefixed ad can be easily stripped from the file without even listening to it. I personally don't give a shit, I don't listen to music, only to CFRB1010 station on my AM radio, however I am certain there will be another service added on top of the first one, where you'd download the music from We7 through that other service, that'll strip the ad from the file.

    1. Re:Prefixed with an ad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually if I remember correctly, from reading a different article, when you first download a song it will have the ad. A couple weeks later (may have been sooner) you can download a version of the song that doesn't have the ad. Ah, here we go. Found it. "Four weeks after downloading the track, the user can then download a version without the ad." From http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070430-pete r-gabriel-shakes-the-tree-ad-supported-mp3s-fall-o ut.html

  23. DRM by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, let's stop calling this by the name Digital Rights Management. That's the name that the industry puts on it to cover their true purpose.

    It's actually DENIAL of FAIR USE. DFU. Call it DFU. When you're explaining why it's DFU instead of the industry's pet name, just say "Disney Fucks U."

    DFU. That's the framing which will help to change people's minds. Don't say DRM any longer. It's not about their rights, it's about OUR fair use rights as citizens.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    1. Re:DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not about their rights, it's about OUR fair use rights as citizens. "Fair use" isn't a right - it's a defense that renders an otherwise illegal act legal. That's not to denigrate it - it's an incredibly important concept. But private companies aren't depriving you of a "right" when they make it hard for you to copy their works. You have no right to make copies, even when doing so is fair use. What you have is a right not to be found liable for copyright infringement if you make those copies.

      Creating a new misleading acronym to replace an old one isn't a step forward, although I do think a better name could be found for DRM - copy prevention, or use restriction, or something similar.

      Overstating the issue also makes it harder to focus on truly egregious actions by certain copyright holders, such as abuse of process, lying to obtain ISP records, and abusive take-down notices.
    2. Re:DRM by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Creating a new misleading acronym to replace an old one isn't a step forward

      I won't argue that it's a step forward, I'll argue that it's an appropriate framing for the issue if you are politically against Denial of Fair Use. Framing is a weapon for winning a political battle, and that's what this is. It's being fought over in the political arena, and we'd better become politically savvy if we're going to win it.

      There is a tendency among logically minded computer programmers to state things in terms of pure argumentation, giving logical reasons, equally logical rebuttals, and organized presentations. These are not things which are effective tools of politics! People do not make up their minds rationally. Framing is built from a MORAL view, and framing defines common sense.

      Denial of Fair Use is an excellent frame. There's a denial, which is a denier. Someone who is thwarting what you want to do. The denial is of fair use. The denial isn't fair, and fairness is a part of most people's moral value system. Denial of fair use is almost like stealing too, because someone is unfairly stopping you from using what you've paid for. Framing is full of moral judgements, and anybody who unfairly stops people from using what they've paid for is morally bad.

      That frame, which draws from the moral values of fairness and legally using your own property, defines common sense. When someone tries to unfairly cheat good people out of what they bought, they should be stopped. Sticking up for people who cheat good people out of using what they bought is a bad thing.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    3. Re:DRM by Hatta · · Score: 1

      You have no right to make copies, even when doing so is fair use. What you have is a right not to be found liable for copyright infringement if you make those copies.

      What's the difference?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:DRM by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      The difference legally is profound. The difference rhetorically is zero. If you're trying to persuade someone, use the term fair use rights. If they object, they are either ant-fuckers who will argue every last detail to death while ignoring your point, or they are the enemy and they are not persuadable. You don't need to persuade a specific person. You just need to persuade 50%+1 of any people at all. It's a political battle, not a legal anal-retentive fest.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  24. For those who didn't actually download from We7 by SpeedyDX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just downloaded a song and am listening to it as I type (Coolio's Gangsta walk it was one of the first songs on the list).

    - There's a 10 second ad clip in the beginning for We7. After that, the music starts.
    - Half the song later, no second ad, just music.
    - The music inexplicably stops 10 seconds before the song's done, but there's still no second ad.

    I don't know how they make money off of advertising their own service in the beginning of the song. Does anyone have an answer for this? And couldn't anyone just download a song, then import it in an audio editor like Audacity, delete the 10 second ad in the beginning and export it back? A quick scan of the terms doesn't seem to prohibit that.

    1. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Falkkin · · Score: 1

      "I don't know how they make money off of advertising their own service in the beginning of the song."

      Presumably, their intent is to get buzz now, get bought out later, and then get rich selling ads from real companies. That's basically the business model of every significant Internet startup.

    2. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by GooglePlexity · · Score: 1

      Or it could just be that they don't have any advertisers lined up yet.

    3. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, in order to delete the ad, you still have to have listened to it, so that grants at least one listening to every ad. Still a bit of win situation for the advertisers.

    4. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Tx · · Score: 1

      I don't know how they make money off of advertising their own service in the beginning of the song.

      They won't, that's filler until they get more advertisers onboard.

      And couldn't anyone just download a song, then import it in an audio editor like Audacity, delete the 10 second ad in the beginning and export it back?

      Yes, or better yet use MP3DirectCut, which allows cutting and joining mp3's without de/recompression - (assuming they use mp3, I didn't look). However the hope is presumably that people are very lazy, and will just fill up their iPods with tracks, and not take the trouble to chop off the ads. there are bound to be some people who are that lazy, but I'm not sure if they will find enough such people to make their business model work.
      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    5. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by SpeedyDX · · Score: 1

      Ah, I hadn't considered that they didn't get advertisers on board yet.

      And the music is in fact encoded in MP3.

    6. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just downloaded several tracks from here. They are all in 128Kbps mp3 format, with ID3v2 tags. There is nothing special about the files at all. They all have an advert clip on the front of them, varying between 4 & 10 seconds.

      I was able to open the songs up with Adobe Audition, and very simply clip off the adverts, then re-save them. The only issue with this is the re-compression artifacts, which most people would never notice anyway.

    7. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Hatta · · Score: 1

      And couldn't anyone just download a song, then import it in an audio editor like Audacity, delete the 10 second ad in the beginning and export it back?

      IIRC, this would recompress the lossy file, making it sound like shit. I'd rather have the ads. There is however mp3-splt that won't reencode.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Gareth+Reakes · · Score: 1

      Hi,

                  I am from We7. Thanks for you input. Replying to a couple of points:

      ----- The music inexplicably stops 10 seconds before the song's done, but there's still no second ad.

      Thanks for this. Some of the tracks had iTunes meta data in them and so stopped early in iTunes. They have now been removed and the content will be uploaded later this morning.

      ----- I don't know how they make money off of advertising their own service in the beginning of the song. Does anyone have an answer for this? And couldn't anyone just download a song, then import it in an audio editor like Audacity, delete the 10 second ad in the beginning and export it back? A quick scan of the terms doesn't seem to prohibit that.

      The terms and conditions for the main site (released next month) will prohibit this. It will of course still be possible to remove the ads but we are targeting people who would like to be completely legal. If you don't mind that its not legal there are already many places you can go and download (without ads).

    9. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by Kymri · · Score: 1

      And - much like using a TiVo or other DVR-type hardware and/or software solution to skip television ads - the majority of people who take part won't even bother with the extra effort. They'll just 'tune out' or ignore the ad and not bother with the extra effort to strip out the ads. I think that for most people (which is not to say /. readers in general) wouldn't care enough to take the 'extra hassle' of running through and clipping the ads from their tracks. Heck, I have an HD DVR from DirecTV (not a TiVo, alas) but most of the time, I just can't be arsed to pick up the remote and skip the ads. It's a good excuse to grab a glass of water, check on a process running on a machine in the other room, visit the bathroom, whatever.

      Even if it's a simple 'feed we7 mp3 to stripper app' process, I'd wager that Joe Wal*Mart using his eMachines desktop and AOL (assuming he could even get to we7.com on his own in the first place) probably would just ignore the ads (or, well, possibly go and purchase products and services while being influenced by them, presumably).

      --
      Evolution ceases when stupidity can no longer be fatal.
    10. Re:For those who didn't actually download from We7 by SpeedyDX · · Score: 1

      Nice to know you guys fixed the early-stop problem. That was the only thing that turned me off from the service.

      Other than that, I don't really mind hearing an ad between the songs I download from We7. Since I buy most of my music on CD anyway, an ad in front of a few select tunes will be more than acceptable.

      Good job on the service, and contrary to what many people here say, I think it's a great idea, and a great implementation.

  25. College Students Have Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Ruckus is free and legal to anyone with an .edu address. No ads, real songs, decent library. (Unfortunately in WMV format with DRM that says you must use WMP or the Ruckus player to play it, but it's free, so meh.)

  26. My experience... by apathy+maybe · · Score: 1

    So, I just signed up (using a fake name and address etc. of course, for you it is tonysmtih@mailinator.com and fuckshitup) and downloaded my first songs.

    The sign up process is crap with a bunch of information that they don't really need and will probably sell (year of birth and gender (but only male and female...) for example).

    The actual ad at the start isn't that bad, but after a while I would definitely get sick of it... So, as has been mentioned, a program to skip the ads... But the music is so crap that even if the ads weren't there...

    Anyway, it might survive, you decide.

    --
    I wank in the shower.
    1. Re:My experience... by Kufat · · Score: 1

      gender (but only male and female...)

      You only get the "yes, please" option when the form has a field for sex, not gender.

    2. Re:My experience... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other you fucker ...

      Not everyone is male or female ...

    3. Re:My experience... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      99.9% of people are, regardless of what they want to say. Gender means "do you have a man parts or woman parts?", "sex" is where social options come in. Gender is biological, sex is social. I don't care if you really want to be ~x, if you have the x bits, thats your gender.

      Biology is destiny.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    4. Re:My experience... by david_we7 · · Score: 1

      I'm from We7, and we have taken note of your input. When the full site launches we will require less personal data for registration. Unfortunately the year of birth is something that we will need. Some tracks contain explicit lyrics, and it would be inappropriate to advertise products such as alcohol to young people. David

  27. Music previews by iamacat · · Score: 1

    Aren't you using Kazaa to "preview the albums to see if they are worth buying"? If so, this service should be perfect for you! Legal, allows you to preview every song, doesn't stop you from buying an ad-free CD or download later. Where is the catch?

  28. Morality is hard to define-but infringment's not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Not everyone though. Many people think that stealing from thieves is a kind of moral justice."

    Well since we're using stereotypes to justify our actions. You shouldn't have a problem with geeks being labeled smelly, no social skills, and virgins?

  29. And the quality by TheAxeMaster · · Score: 1

    I couldn't find any mention of the file bitrates anywhere on the site, has anyone downloaded any of these files? What's the bitrate? If it is some crappy 128k mp3 I'll pass.

    1. Re:And the quality by Xanius · · Score: 1

      Songs are 128Kbps, so far the only thing they have on the songs is at the front it says "Don't steal it, we7 it".

  30. Pot meet kettle by gsn · · Score: 4, Insightful
    cnet is really one to talk. You had to suffer through ads before every single video clip on their site. Sometimes their ads are longer than their video reviews (only useful to get some indication of size).

    Sure ads are annoying but music is good and free music is better. If not just pay for it. You can you know. cnet might have learnt that if they even tried looking at the bloody frontpage http://www.we7.com/

    At We7, we know that ads are not always desirable, so as with everything in life it's a balance and We7 will give you a choice.

            * If you want a track now with no ad, then we will give you a way to buy the track at normal price.
            * If you want a track that is free, legal, safe and the artist gets rewarded then we add the ad. However, you don't have to have the ad forever, as with We7 technology, after a period of time (4 weeks) you will have the choice to have the track 'ad free'. So, enjoy We7 and the new digital music download model. Oh right and as has already been pointed out if its DRM free I can simply strip out the first ten seconds or whatever.
    --
    Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
  31. Except for one thing by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    It's not extortion because you don't have to buy music at all. They provide something and set a price. If consumers think the product is ok at the price, it'll sell. If not, it won't.

    And...yuck. I think I just defended those guys. Think I'll go take a bath.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  32. Nature of the site by philmack · · Score: 0

    After you log in, the interface is a fairly simple with a clear html/non flash/non plugin website that gives plain anchored hypertext links to the files to download.
    The files themselves are 128kbps 44khz mp3 files with about a 8 or 9 second ad followed by 1 or 2 seconds of silence, then the song.
    The few songs I listened to seem to be encoded well enough for the given format.
    there isn't much selection, a few mainstream artists with a few tracks and a few that are less mainstream with entire albums.
    I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this site to see what develops.

  33. My suggestion by JoelMeow · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.mptrim.com/ There's a few other programs out there that can chop up mp3s without losing any quality. I downloaded a couple of mp3s from we7 and they only slap an ad on the beginning of the song, so it's easy to chop off if you don't want it.

  34. Edit by certel · · Score: 1

    It's not THAT bad of an idea but wouldn't you just edit out the commercial/advertisement and save it as a new file?

  35. iTunes will fail next by the.Ceph · · Score: 1

    It's true the best way to combat piracy is to provide a realistic and affordable alternative, and 99 cents is certainly affordable. But music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs more as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable DRM or advertisements.

    Oh wait... some of them are... hmm.

  36. It's clearly extortion by FLEB · · Score: 1

    It's clearly extortion. We all know the terrible consequences of ignoring iTMS and EMI, and not buying music from either of them. Oh, the horrors of not owning a particular specific piece of non-essential entertainment!

    --
    Information wants to be free.
    Entertainment wants to be paid.
    You just want to be cheap.
  37. I. Like. It. by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    Define the battle on our terms, not theirs.

    They already got one past the media with "Piracy". It's NOT PIRACY. It's copyright violation. If it was piracy, we already had laws on the books against that. By tying the two together the public thinks they must somehow be similar. And they are not. People are very rarely fired upon with cannon shot when their software is infringed upon.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  38. Talk radio... the evil infiltrator . by zakezuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In my day we called that "commercial radio".

    I remember when commercial radio was like this... where you could passivly listen to music, 2-4 songs and then an equal amount of time was dedicated to commercials and dj jabber. Odds were you could hop stations if the commercial breaks really bothered you.

    Now... I have a hard time crusing the FM dial without finding some radio station that hasn't been infiltrated by the "talk radio craze", which is some solo jackass with a string monologs lasting for 8 hours, not related to the music, but usually a cry of moral outrage over scented toilet paper followed by fart jokes.

    I for one welcome our music serving commercial overlords... at least there is MUSIC.

    --
    There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
  39. Don't we call it "commercial radio" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah ad supported free music is sure to fail...

  40. However by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe you are mistaken - because they are abusing their position to restrict fair use.

    Extortion is:

    2. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
    3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extortion

    We should start calling it for what it is Digital RESTRICTION Management ;)

    Garry ~ skilful.com

  41. I thought the song itself WAS the ad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to entice you to go see the artist in concert. Seriously, that's why they get radio play--to get you to pay for a ticket when they come to town. This whole idea that the song is a tangible piece of property or that it's something you lease just isn't working. Songs over the internet should be treated like songs over the air. It's an ad already.

    The alternative would be product placement IN the song, like we see in movies. It's already happening in rap.

  42. Never say never by singingjim1 · · Score: 1

    No one will ever want one of those horseless carriages, they are doomed to fail! No one will ever want have a computer in their home, they are doomed to fail! No one will ever want...you get the point.

    1. Re:Never say never by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the "horseless carraige" and "computer" were major technological advances. Another change in music formatting? Not so much.

    2. Re:Never say never by singingjim1 · · Score: 1

      True, but it's still silly to just dismiss it out of hand before the site has even gone live. I was exaggerating to make the point, but I could have used better examples I guess. I actually think it's a good idea and signed up.

  43. This applies only to commercial crap by Morgaine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I stopped listening to commercial music over a decade ago when it started to deliver crap instead of actual music. And I'm not the only one.

    If you have a problem with DRM or with copyrights or with the RIAA or with the cost of music, it's your choice: you choose to listen to crap, and crap with strings attached is what you get.

    There is 100 times as much music out there as is delivered by the mainstream western labels. Go find it, and enjoy. And when you choose to pay for something that you think is really terrific, you will be rewarding musicians, not shareholders.

    It's your choice. You know how to Google.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
    1. Re:This applies only to commercial crap by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I stopped listening to commercial music over a decade ago when it started to deliver crap instead of actual music. And I'm not the only one.

      If you have a problem with DRM or with copyrights or with the RIAA or with the cost of music, it's your choice: you choose to listen to crap, and crap with strings attached is what you get.

      The problem with the above, is that what defines 'crap' is purely subjective.

      In my case, almost all forms of alt/grunge/punk/whatever that stem from Nirvana all the way down are, to my ears, unmitigated crap. Have been since day one. If all of your indie bands are making music of that genre, it's just more crap that isn't on major labels. Conversely, some of the stuff I listen to might be unmitigated crap to you. (Shocking as it might sound. ;-)

      But, an indie version of Green Day doesn't interest me any more than the actual thing.

      There is 100 times as much music out there as is delivered by the mainstream western labels. Go find it, and enjoy. And when you choose to pay for something that you think is really terrific, you will be rewarding musicians, not shareholders.

      There's a lot of music which falls into that category, but it may not be possible for everyone to lay hands on it. Record stores (most of them) offer up way too much floorpsace for the mainstream stuff to be able to stock anything with any reliability -- that's because that is what will sell.

      I listen to loads of stuff which is very far removed from mainstream. Unfortunately, the recording label is still a member of the RIAA, so it's not like you can get that far removed from it. Even if the artists basically say "go ahead, share our music with your friends", the RIAA might still decide to sue on behalf of them, and against their stated wishes.

      Short of everyone going on some quest to wander about in the forest of lesser-known music, it's simply tough to find stuff which diverges from the mainstream. That, or you're ordering really obscure imports, or small runs from indie groups, or what have you.

      And, really, you can't google for "find me some non-mainstream music I'll like".

      In my case, my music collection is self perpetuating because I keep looking at stuff on the same recording label (Six Degrees) or from other artists I've found who are associated with some of the groups I've found. But, I'm nowhere near being able to find music I like without actually relying on an actual label who is, nonetheless, a member of the RIAA.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  44. This should have been done in the 1st place!!! by 1mck · · Score: 1

    Jesus, we all watch tv, and listen to the radio, and we all understand about getting the content for free...I downloaded all of the songs, and I really couldn't give 2 shits if they put a small commercial at the front! They should do this for Battlestar Galactica...they'd make a fortune off of the advertisers!!!

    Yes, I can easily take out the commercials by just converting it, and cutting it out, but really I don't want to waste my time. After all, I get to listen to artists that I want to, and then later on if I like them enough I'll go out, and buy their albums.

    This is incredible exposure for artists that can't get any air play at any radio station, so I applaud anyone who has the foresight to actually use this new technology to their advantage, and actually give the people access to their favourite artists, or even new ones! I'm really liking this song "Touch" by "Public Symphony!" Now, I would have never heard of them except for this service, and I don't have to worry about the fucking RIAA after me!

    I think those fucking suits at the movie/television/music industries, are probably the most fucking ignorant, stunned, blind, fucktards that can't see a fucking goldmine if they were actually thrown into one!!! This is the future of content delivery to the users!!!! Fucking recognize that it doesn't matter what they hell that you give out to the people as it is the commercials that will allow you to fucking rake, and I mean fucking rake in the dough$$$!!!! Advertisers have captive audiences, and for the general populace, they won't even know how to edit out the commercials, so it will actually get to your target audiences!!! This will be balloon so that there will be more of a need for people to produce, and make the commercials, and it just goes from there!

    This is a win-win for everybody...I do not agree that this will fail whatsoever! You'll always have people who will skirt DRM, or even editing out commercials, but as I stated before, for the general masses they'll accept this wholeheartedly, and won't even try to edit them!

    Those fucking suits must subscribe to "DUH" magazine!!! Idiots!!!

  45. Re:I. Like. It. by hkmarks · · Score: 1

    But then what's the point of September 19th?

  46. For the 12394872183947124873087th time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't mind paying for music that we can play on any device. Why does everything have to be "ad-supported"? Seriously. I don't care about a bunch of useless crap that I don't want. Simple enough, right? Apparently the entire industry doesn't get it.

  47. How do they say that, I wonder. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not going to download one to find out, but how the heck do you pronounce "we7"?

    Is that "wee-seven"? Or do they try to amalgamate the words into "weven" or something?

    Who here thinks that having a short URL was a key part of their plan to get venture capital...? (Raises hand) Who thinks this will save them...? Anybody? ... Bueller?

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:How do they say that, I wonder. by Xanius · · Score: 1

      The hot sounding british chick says wee-seven.

    2. Re:How do they say that, I wonder. by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      It's pronounced wee-seven. I signed up, downloaded a song, and was greeted by a very short advertisement (about 4 seconds long), saying "the time for wee-seven is now". And that was it. It was skip-able so long as you reacted fast enough to skip it before it ended.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  48. Re:Talk radio... the evil infiltrator . by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

    Several stations in the NY area have changed to an all-music all-the-time format. Sure, they still have ads, but ZERO talk. Woohoo!

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  49. Morality cannot be legislated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Breaking the law" is not the same thing as "being immoral."

    A person who breaks a law by doing something which he feels is morally correct has no reason to feel guilty (in a moral sense) though he has a good reason to be aware that he is breaking a law.

    Ever heard the phrase, "an unjust law is no law at all?" In some cases, breaking the law is actually the morally correct thing to do, though opinions about when such cases occur will vary.

    1. Re:Morality cannot be legislated by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why when asked by the attorney's in a case, "Do you support the idea of jury nullification" you are morally okay with saying "No" even tho you do. It's equivalent to, "Are you hiding people we want to kill?".

      Thomas Jefferson felt that the jury had the ultimate right to find people not guilty of laws which the jury felt were unjust. But you must lie to hold this view. You basically just repeatedly say, "not guilty, I'm not convinced." Never say why (they can throw you off if you do).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  50. Wait, wait... by humpolec · · Score: 1

    If I download the music (legally) through we7, then chop off the beginning ad, then I have a song no different than one downloaded through BitTorrent?

  51. better by kurtis25 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't a better model involve a tie into a service which updates ads every time you plug the music player in? I could see starting to hate a song if it has some annoying car ad before it. It would be nice for the downloader's and the advertisers to change things up every few days.

    1. Re:better by zakezuke · · Score: 1

      I could see starting to hate a song if it has some annoying car ad before it. You must mean AOL's IN2TV.com Pontiac ads defending convertable freedom. Regular TV at least has varity for it's commercials, so much so it just becomes background noice. Thankfully I have a mute button... I don't need to hear Stan's request for a convertable is just a crazy as wanting an amp, or having a hot wife is a drag.

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
  52. Re:Morality is hard to define-but infringment's no by S.O.B. · · Score: 1


    Well since we're using stereotypes to justify our actions. You shouldn't have a problem with geeks being labeled smelly, no social skills, and virgins?


    Hey, hey, hey! I don't smell.
    --
    Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
  53. Insightful? by norminator · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Why is that modded Interesting?

    Funny? Yes.
    Informative? For all who needed to get a copy of that HD-DVD key, yes.
    But Insightful? Come on...

    1. Re:Insightful? by bjorniac · · Score: 1

      Interesting != Insightful....

  54. Re:The Elected Ones - WKRP? by MooseTick · · Score: 1

    Man, that was one rare and little noticed reference to Venus' explanation of the atom!!

    You sir are neither adel minded nor obtuse.

  55. Alright then... by raehl · · Score: 1

    ...but then who do I pay to tell me what to like?

    1. Re:Alright then... by pla · · Score: 1

      ...but then who do I pay to tell me what to like?

      I know you meant that as a joke, but the GP has an unintended point - Yes, we can find 100x as much music out there, free even, as RIAA offers. But the vast majority of it quite simply sucks.

      I've personally found a few dozen artists I enjoy via the web (more than half from mp3.com, back when it still existed). But for each gem, I've listened to hundreds of steaming piles of crap I wouldn't inflict on Gitmo detainees.



      Personally I find local college radio a good compromise, as they play a broad spectrum of genres, from both RIAA and non-RIAA sources, and usually have already filtered out the worst of the crap. They also usually still have some shred of integrity left, too, so don't just play what the highest bidder requests.

  56. I hope they are doomed. by Entropius · · Score: 0, Troll

    Advertising, fundamentally, is an economic parasite. Advertisers produce nothing of value, and add no value to the products they advertise; any economic model that relies on excessive advertising (more than "I have this product for sale if you are interested", which *does* provide value) is essentially wasteful.

    This leaves open the question of how Slashdot et al. will get compensated for their bandwidth, but having to find a way for Slashdot to get paid is a better outcome than having an entire section of the economy doing nothing productive.

    1. Re:I hope they are doomed. by IthnkImParanoid · · Score: 1

      Advertisers produce nothing of value, and add no value to the products they advertise
      There's nothing valuable about people actually knowing a product exists? Or put another way, there's no value to me (the consumer) knowing a product exists that will meet a need I have?

      I'm pretty anti-advertising, but that's mostly because of obnoxious, intrusive, and/or ubiquitous marketing. The fundamental purpose of advertising is to introduce the buyer and the seller, and there's nothing wrong with that.
      --
      It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
    2. Re:I hope they are doomed. by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I specifically exempted that sort of advertising. Telling me that a product exists is useful; bombarding me with messages that I should buy it is not.

  57. Removing the ads by mogrify · · Score: 1

    mp3splt's silence detection works great on all the We7 files I tested!*

    mp3splt -s downloaded.mp3

    * Grand total: one. But still. It appears the "Web 2.0 based, 'pat.pending' MediaGraft engine" is just prepending a ten-second mp3 with a polite period of silence before the music begins.

    --
    perl -e 'foreach(values %SIG){$_="IGNORE";}while(){}'
  58. Service + Audacity = Legal, Ad-Free, No-Cost Music by Miseph · · Score: 1

    Seriously, what's the complaint here? Even if you're too lazy to do it yourself, they'll let you get an ad-free version after a couple of weeks. Some of you guys are way too picky.

    --
    Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  59. Hindsight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahhhh, but hindsight is 20x20.

    So, what you're saying is that hindsight is 400?

  60. Google is right by muxecoid · · Score: 1

    Google is right about ads. Least annoying = Most clicked in the long run. Text ads are better than images, image than video, video than audio. If they could put text ads inside it would be better for them.
      My guess is that people will use, but advertisement will cause listeners to AVOID advertised services and products. They will not have enough advertisers in the long run.

  61. niche for obscure music by Falladir · · Score: 1

    BitTorrent depends the popularity of the torrent. If these guys are offering free, DRM-free downloads of (depending on your perspective, maybe *ridiculously*) obscure stuff, they're in business.

  62. From the website . . . by Caffeinate · · Score: 1

    With We7, your computer will not be exposed to spyware, viruses, hatemail or PORN - and you will not risk having your files or ID stolen. Not much of a replacement for BitTorrent then . . .
    --
    Godless heathen.
    1. Re:From the website . . . by muxecoid · · Score: 1

      They will, probably, offer ad-supported porn later. ;)

  63. Correct, but for the wrong reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think CNet is correct although they do not know WHY they are correct.

    In terms of cost, a legal alternative to BitTorrent would instantly become the most popular method of acquiring music, since this ad-supported service would be free. I see that as being a factor, but not the deciding factor, in the eventual success or failure of the service.

    The business model of ad-supported, free products or services seems ideal, but has been, for the most part, unrealistic in the past. We all know Google has enjoyed great success with its ad-supported services, but Google does not have to rely on third-party licensed sources for its services and products. In fact, most copyright holders are thrilled to have their information on Google because it benefits them. Google's search engine provides a free service for both surfers and copyright holders (web site owners), but Google receives the greatest benefits because it sticks ads on the pages and gives advertisers the opportunity to create prioritized ad campaigns _for a price_. Because of the type of business that Google runs, this is relatively easy by comparison. However, attempting to create a service which essentially distributes copyright holders' _products_ with no benefit to them is not seen as a good business decision by those copyright holders, and as a result the selection of music available through this ad-supported music downloading service will be highly limited. This is one reason why the service may eventually be "doomed to failure," but it is not the only reason.

    If we consider the beneficiaries of this business model, we see that the distributor (We7) will receive little income due to lack of business, providing little incentive for the company to take larger risks in achieving its goal (which is to distribute free, DRM-less music to listeners). Copyright holders receive little benefit because they are not advertising companies -- they want to be paid for their products, and even when they are paid for their products they are unwilling to relinquish copyrights on those products -- and therefore receive no income from the advertisements directly. Moreover, the customers will be at best somewhat dissatisfied or alienated because of the advertisement method implemented. If the advertisements are available only on the site (and not included as part of the music the consumers are downloading), then the distributor will likely receive less income from the advertisements; and if the advertisements are included as part of the music, then consumers will be alienated, disgusted, and ultimately dissatisfied. As a result, consumers will direct their business elsewhere. In contrast to Google, where advertisers see opportunity, copyright holders are willing, and surfers are abundant, neither We7's target audience nor its sponsors receive enough benefits to make such business ventures and risks worthwhile.

    These are the reasons for which We7 will fail where Google has prevailed. It has nothing to do with cost, but it has everything to do with feasibility and the prospects of business.

  64. it will fail, but not for that reason... by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

    I agree that this service will fail, but only because it's devaluing the music too much for it to be worth it for artists. There is no way you could attract enough advertising revenue to the vast number of independent artists with relatively low audiences. This can only work for top 40 type music, with large target audiences already in place. They will never be able to offer more niche music unless they subsidize it with more popular tracks, which is no way to determine the value of music. We end up with something that's equivalent to FM radio run by Clearchannel, which is completely unappealing when compared with decent streaming MP3 radio stations (which can be captured and stored in MP3 format if desired) and paid downloads in higher quality without ads. The artist and record label should determine the value of the music, not the amount of listeners.

    --
    "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
  65. It wont work as long as service is inferior to p2p by Dark_MadMax666 · · Score: 1

    As a user I personally wouldnt mind supporting the artists (mind you the artists, not RIAA), but service has to be on par with what p2p provides - e.g.

    1)huge catalog
    2)ease and convenince of use
    3)DRM free format.

    So far all the services fail in all three . For the exception of allofmp3.com ,which RIAA cant wait to kill (killed already?) .

  66. No Thanks by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1
    I quit watching TV because the ads were too invasive and the ratio of content to ads was getting worse. If cable TV channels want to push more ads, then why am I *PAYING* for content...?

    I quit listening to broadcast radio because of too many ads.

    Marketers are WAY too aggressive invading our eyespace. I got so fed up with ads and telemarketers that I pulled the plug on the radio/TV, got an unpublished phone #, and signed up for the federal do not call list.

    I'm in no hurry to sign up for we7, thank you very much.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  67. Maybe not doomed, but perhaps predisposed... by ahoehn · · Score: 1

    Embedded ads work well in some things and not in others. Applications like ABC's online video player work well. ABC embeds 30 second ads into the TV show you're watching every 10 minutes or so. Consumers are already used to watching ads in the middle of their TV shows so it's not a big inconvenience.

    In contrast, We7 embeds short ads at the beginning of every song. This isn't something consumers are used to, and seems a bit annoying. I wouldn't advise any of the clients our agency works with to use a format that was likely to annoy their customers. If there were a way that We7 could replicate the radio station listening experience that many consumers accept - embedding ads every 4 or 6 songs - I could imagine this gaining some traction. But, since that would require a propriety player and format, I don't see it happening any time soon.

    Plus, if the ads play for a set amount of time at the beginning of every DRM-free mp3, wouldn't it be ridiculously easy to strip them out?

    IAAAG (I Am An Advertising Guy), but that doesn't mean my opinion on this matter holds any particular validity.

    --
    Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
  68. Guaranteed success... by evilviper · · Score: 0, Redundant
    In Cnet style, I will guarantee success, provided only that the record labels don't pull the plug...

    music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements.

    Quite the opposite. P2P is notorious for crappy quality, fake files, and damaged files.

    An ad on every song is excessive, but a couple second run through mp3splt (or mp3trim on Win32) and you're done.

    Better/easier than P2P. I fail to see how this is bad.

    What's more, everyone will probably listen to the ad a couple times before they remove it, so it should still make money for advertisers, and keep the site in business.
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    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  69. domain name? by cashman73 · · Score: 1

    I don't know if we7.com is doomed to failure or not. I guess the market will ultimately determine that. But seriously, is cybersquatting these days really so bad that the best name for the site that they could come up with is WE7.COM?!?! Seriously?!?! WTF does that mean?!?!

  70. Or on college campuses... by porcupine8 · · Score: 1

    I could see this being a hit on college campuses where the RIAA has started using big bad scare tactics, especially where it's resulted in restrictions on filesharing programs, etc. Free to the students, free to the school, legal, everyone's happy. And someone posted above that a few weeks after you download the song, you can get rid of the ads, too.

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    Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  71. Re:The Elected Ones - WKRP? by Itninja · · Score: 1

    Right on brother! Now one other question. How do you get pink paint off a frog?

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    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
  72. Failure as a technology, or failure as an excuse? by What+Is+Dot · · Score: 1

    I completely disagree with the article.

    "...music downloaders are not going to switch to using a service that costs the same as using BitTorrent or Limewire, but comes with abominable disclaimers or advertisements..."

    They will if they know that they will eventually be sued for it. I am currently a student at a prominant midwestern university, and not too long ago the RIAA sent hundereds of emails to the university (which were promptly forwarded to students using the network) telling the students to pay $3000 to settle or they will be sued (and eventually forced to settle for even more money). I haven't done any serious downloading since I was a freshman and using the network, but I was sitting by my inbox praying that I didn't recieve one of those emails.
    This first hand experience changed the way that I listen to music. Since I don't like most of the popular music in the US today, I listen to music online. Downloading music does hurt the RIAA because it makes their product less valuable, but that's THEIR fault for switching to a medium that is so easy to copy. Downloading royalty free music (which is VERY EASY TO FIND, if you look for it) ALSO hurts the RIAA, but they can't sue us for it. That's because it still forces them to try to change their business model, and that is our goal, people.
    Fighting the system is a waste of energy. Simply use a better one.

  73. Re:Morality is hard to define-but infringment's no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, hey, hey! I don't smell. Is that because you have no nose?

    Hang on, there's a back-to-front joke in there somewhere.