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Threat To Free, Legal Guitar Tablature Online
An anonymous reader writes "Recently Hal Leonard Corporation, the world's largest songbook publisher, sent an email to the music publishing and copyright community urging them not to license guitar tablature for free, advertising-supported use online. The email includes a number of factual errors and was potentially very damaging to the potential for a free, legal, and licensed destination for guitar tab online. Musicnotes and MXTabs have posted the full letter along with their response."
One thing i cant stand is big companies taking "legal" action against free services just so they can charge the user money. Infuriating.
If things keep progressing at this rate, and if they do start enforcing these fucking insane laws, it'll only be a matter of a few years before owning music is undesirable as it would be difficult ot prove any music is legit and could have you thrown into jail at any moment.
Why not just cut out all the BS and just make any kind of music ownership illegal. Musical instruments could be covered by the DMCA too since they can be used to copy (read play) a tune.
Oh that's we can't skip the BS right, because rich greed assholes can a make profit for a while this way.
Owning/buying music is quickly becoming no different morally to owning/buying blood diamonds. Hell, if they make musical instruments illegal perhaps the penalty for owning one could be that they cut off your hands.
IP law? It's just fucking entertainment. Get a grip!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Back in the day. This was a non-commercial use for educational purposes and they killed it, so screw them.
The Harry Fox Agency, which got its rights to "mechanical reproduction of music" by getting monopoly control over the piano roll market a century ago, has already taken down most tablature from the Web on its flimsy pretext to copyright (and its big lawyer and lobbyist payroll).
Tablatures are interpretations of the music as heard by someone. They're not even the public performance of music that whistling your favorite song as you walk down the street would be. But once public places are comprehensively wired for sound and video, Harry Fox will be sending you a bill for every time you do just that.
These insane government monopolies on content already part of folklore, from which folk activity they get nearly all their current value, must end. They are justified in the Constitution as a compromise with 1700s economics only "to promote progress in science and the useful arts". Instead, they now prohibit that progress. Copyrights must end no later than after a human generation of publication, shorter for media other than songs and books, and probably earlier than when 10x their registered production investment is recouped.
--
make install -not war
I really wonder if companies that go on the warpath over internet copyright violations really think in their long-term best interest. Look at the RIAA, for instance. For all of the money they've spent and the lawsuits they've threatened, they're back at square one when it comes to halting internet file sharing. Guitar tabs are even easier to redistribute. What makes Hal Leonard think that they'll do any better?
just pick up your guitar and play.
I began playing guitar in 1995 and discovered OLGA early on. Hal Leonard (the person) was a great teacher. The Corporation OTOH ... once again knowledge & your right (Hal and many of the great teachers used to call it an obligation) to pass it on once again comes up against the almighty dollar.
I spent a couple of years teaching in the late 90s. I'll try to avoid waxing lyrical about the philosophy of teaching but music is a LIVING thing. If you restrict it, less will find it and it withers. With regard to learning music (and any other discipline outside of Scientology and ITIL) information wants to be free.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Is this not a threat to U.S. Constitutional rights. A person should have the ability to tell others about a way (s)he learned to play something extremely similar to a song. It is not actually the song, as most tabs are not 100% accurate. Therefore it is just a song the themselves made up, but is heavily based on the song they were trying to copy. Even if there isn't enough of a difference to distinguish one from another, the tab is still the fruit of their labor, and thus should be shared at their own will.
622677120
The latest MS vs Linux FUDding is very widely reported in the popular media. Perhaps that's triggering another run of this behavior through various industries.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I really wonder if companies that go on the warpath over internet copyright violations really think in their long-term best interest. Look at the RIAA, for instance. For all of the money they've spent and the lawsuits they've threatened, they're back at square one when it comes to halting internet file sharing. What makes Hal Leonard think that they'll do any better, especially because guitar tabs are just TXT files and arguably even easier to redistribute?
And I wonder what this will do to the next generation of musicians? Back when I began learning how to play guitar, much of my progress was because of the availability of free tab, which allowed me to play along with CDs. It would be grimly appropriate if the industries pushing this kind of litigation were shooting themselves in the foot when the talent pool in 20 years has shrunk down as a result.
Between the falling angel and the rising ape
Can you feel me now??? HAHAHAHA!!! Bend over, you're mine, baby!
Nothing to be said that hasn't been said already. Depending who you are, the system works, or it doesn't. For those of you that are getting screwed, you should at least get dinner and a movie out of the deal...And I would expect a kiss, too.
What?
Lots of the larger tabs sites have had takedown messages sent to them (example here), which, quite frankly, sucks if you're trying to learn to play.
You can learn a lot about a person if you just take the time to inject them with sodium pentathol
Nine years ago, I was interviewed for this article about the original OLGA kerfuffle.
Nine years. You'd think that after that long, the traditional music publishing industry might have learned something from their complete inability to stop the spread of on-line guitar tabs.
Hey, publishers: It's over. You lost. You're not going to get to stop people from talking about how to play music. Quit whining, join the world in the 21st century, and you might yet find a way to profit.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
if they tighten the belt too much it stifles learning and enjoyment of music. If you don't enjoy it, you are less likely to buy.
The conspiracy theorist in me says that they are not this stupid and their end goal is to have some sort of nazification of the Arts. Wanna own/play a guitar kid? You'll need a license. What are you playing? License. Playing in public? Upgrade your license. Singing a protest song? Jail.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
so this means to get tabs i go to piratebay and snatch a massive .RAR or every song i could possibly want to play, right?
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
If I have spent my own time trying to figure out the tabs/sheet music of a song, why shouldn't I share it with millions of others who may want that song's tabs?? Just because it takes business away from some other people doesn't mean they can put restrictions on my freedom and willingness to share my effort. Its not as if I have stolen the tabs from someplace where they were being legally sold. Its my time that I've spent. So whats the solution to such a problem? Or does this end up as a stalemate? These people are curbing the free flow of information and knowledge. I myself have learned guitar by looking at countless tabs from OLGA and other sites.
Wait, you mean these sites Musicnotes and MXTabs feature BARELY LEGAL examples of rubbing and stroking and vibrating TIGHT thin little stringy things, all in a series of Web pages that have been deemed TOO REVEALING and EXPLICIT by the leading moral authorities?
And we can get all this too-racy-for-the-Web content for free right now for a limited time only in the privacy of our own homes, and it will help us learn to "play" like rock stars?
Hott.
Wait, what were talking about again?
All of OLGA can be zipped into like a 40mb file.
The music industry can't stop me from downloading a 300mb album.
The movie studios can't stop me from downloading an 1.4gb XviD.
The software industry can't stop me from downloading an 8gb ISO.
Who are these people kidding?
You will see companies battling for information controls for a good while. We are living in the IP landgrab. Current speculation is that information is property, and probably far more valuable than goods. An ear of corn is pittance to the knowledge of the process of raising, harvesting, and distributing corn. 1000 years ago, you couldn't restrict someone from telling their neighbor or son how to do any of those. Today, we have patents, copyrights, patent-copyrights (for software), process patents, plot patents, etc, etc.
We will see new instruments of IP control before this is over. The current consensus among MANY think tanks, blowhard economists, and business leaders is that if it has value, it should be owned and exploited. In that case, expect to see the future demotivator poster and lolcat memes protected. Memes have value, specifically cultural value. You may even see a day in which safety and consumer protection information owned and protected.
In the dark past, we had to band together to form libraries to preserve our knowledge and culture, and to share it. Today, we are the librarians, and we MUST do our jobs to protect our collective knowledge and culture, and to make sure it is freely sharable. All we are is flesh and knowledge. We cannot let either be subject to trade.
As an aside, when did capitalism become about giving trade rights to those who can charge the most? Shouldn't that argument fall on its face? Capitalism is a method to efficiently manage resources, in which those who must charge the most are the least efficient, and those that are more efficient are rewarded with the most or all profits. The most expensive price is the red-headed stepchild of capitalism, not it's pinnacle. The capitalist hero is not the whiny John Gault, it IS the busy looter or pirate. The pirates are the ones that realized a far more efficient method of production or distribution.
I can't play guitar by ear, so I am totally fucked if I want to learn to play a song that I can't get the tabs for legally. And the best part is?... I CANNOT BUY THE DAMN TABS EVEN THOUGH I'D PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THEM!!!
Part of the copyright law should be full sheet music and tablature for all music submitted to the library of Congress. That wouldn't hurt the songwriters, who'd probably be able to make even more money because all you'd have to do to get their work is go to the Library of Congress, download it and pay them their royalty. It'd only hurt the companies that selectively publish tablature.
And it would also benefit bands because it would encourage them to do cover songs, which would be yet another stream of revenue.
But no, a songwriter and band really benefits by shutting down the only way I could have gotten tabs for their music, without providing me any legal way to do it.
Morons. I hope the welfare office runs out of money for them and their families when they go bankrupt.
Hal Leonard claimed that the tabs are inaccurate, made by kids. If the tabs are really inaccurate, then I would think that the users of the tabs wouldn't be happy with them, and this alleged tab black market would disappear.
The tabs must, on the contrary, be reasonably accurate for Hal Leonard to be noticing any loss of business, which, as TFA explains, they probably aren't.
It astonishes me that the morons at Hal Leonard can't see that MXTabs is analogous to the iTunes Music Store: a different-yet-profitable delivery system. The letter refers to the easy availability of digital sheet music, ignoring the fact that a single song typically costs US$5.00, far more than it's worth to garage musicians. Licensed tabs that are ad-supported or reasonably-priced will generate revenue.
Equally astonishing (well, not really) is that the *AAs haven't realized that tablature is useless without a copy of the song it represents. Basic tablature doesn't completely specify a work in the way that standard notation does, so someone who downloads a tab will need an audio file. And not all of those audio files will be pirated, as recent studies indicate. It's a gain for music sales in general.
Morons.
Considering this company is capitalizing on the old Real Book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Book an illegal book (songs in there were unlicensed) used by jazz musicians for decades, I am curious as to where they intend to go with this. For a perspective on a similar experience in the past, back in the day jazz musicians could only find the standard songs in the lead sheet format (Chord chart and melody line) through illegal means, the most prevalent one being the Real Book. They were difficult to find though and were only available through word of mouth (though the internet helped a little). Recently however Hal Leonard has published "New Editions" of the three main volumes of the Real Books which I have found to be quite good, but unfortunately missing many of the standards that the original Real Books had. The biggest advantage these new Real Books have is that they are extremely easy to find. One of the biggest differences here however, is the Real Books were completely unlicensed and illegal, there was no consent by the authors of the songs. Though many of them probably owned the illegal books themselves and may have benefited by the fact their songs were now standards. It seems that with this online database however, with the intent to hold only licensed songs and an easier to find product, they stand on better grounds than the Real Books of old. It may be a battle of who can provide a better service, and if Musicnotes and MXTabs can keep persuading artists to release their tabulature freely. With the record store going away, I don't know how long the printed music store will be able to hold out against the internet.
IANAL.
It looks to me like MxTabs would have a good chance of winning a libel suit over this (and possibly other stuff like 'interfering with a business relationship' or something.) The letter repeatedly claims they are publishing illegal music, when in fact it is all authorized. Indeed, the letter is trying to convince people not to grant permission to MxTabs, which would be utterly pointless if MxTabs were illegally ignoring permissions. (Other bits might also be libelous, but this is the stand-out obvious one.)
However, the likelihood of winning in court does not guarantee that there is a good business case for suing.
Is there a lawyer in the house who might like to comment?
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
I very much miss easier access to tabs. They have taken down so many sites already. OLGA, of course, is most missed. I donated to several sites over the years, including OLGA. Figured it was like teaching someone a new dance. Who knows if Dance Dance Revolution will be going after people who imitate their dance steps 10 years from now.
The problem with the guitar tab situation has been that it is a difficult situation to explain to non-players. Everyone knows that almost all great rock players have openly admitted for 40 years that they learned by imitating records, writing down what they knew, and sharing it.
First it was the lyrics, now the tabs are gone. Not only will they ultimately hurt the music publishing business, but the instrument business as well. God knows how much money I have spent on guitars/music toys ONLY due to the existence of tabs.
On the next cool evening, I shall be burning any Hal Leonard books I own in the pit outside.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
what will happen to places like wikipedia? what about http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/ ? places where everything is fair game: interpretations, new ideas, rehashings, you name it. if "publishing" to the internet your ideas about how a song is played is made a serious crime, how long will it be before other forms of information and knowledge exchange are quashed?
Ok, so published tabs are under fire. People will do what they have always done: learn popular songs and teach other people and maybe put the tabs online. Seriously: apart from guitar mags, who buys tabs? I think I bought two tab books during my teenage days (one for Metallica and one for Soundgarden Superunknown). That's not much.
The real problem is that sites like olga.net get taken down because of OCILLA, which is ridiculous. I mean, how is posting tabs to popular songs bad? It's no different than what people did before the net, that is, teach other people how to play songs. It's not as though anyone learning songs from TAB is going to put the original musicians out of business (it's TAB!!! for goodness sake!). Besides, one of the biggest honors a band/songwriter can have is legions of cover bands playing their music.
OCILLA is just another example of the GREEDY MAFIAA stepping on musicians, both professional and amateur. I am sure you could count on your hand the musicians who oppose kids/cover bands playing their music, so this is obviously the suits. Sad. Don't they have more no-talent losers to ink deals with like Britney and Jesse McCartney?
blah blah blah
I will post a guitar B Sharp cord (B# = C) lol. I dare almighty Hal 9000 to censor it!
Censor This HAL!
Score & Karma: SASA: Slashdot Approval Seekers Anonymous
- Music industry "Heya Tom, it's Bob, from the office down the hall..."
P.P.S. I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
I've always believed that TABs should be treated just like clean room design. Unless you can prove that the person who detailed out his way to play a song did so using unlicensed means (something like took official tab book and published it as his own). I really don't know how even a misinterpreted TAB could be property of the label who owns the song recording. I guess this is just one more piece of evidence that the whole patent/copyright system needs to be re-looked at, because it's just completely fucked up as-is.
If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
In addition to TAB, the ABC format is also being threatened by Hal Leonard Publishing. ABC is probably more of a threat to their revenue stream because it can easily be translated into midi and into sheet music. A lot of traditional musicians use this format and the many ABC readers that are available online. Many prefer this to published books not just because it is free, but because the music is closer to the way the songs are really played.
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
There are potentially too many potentialities in the summary.
That may be the case in Australia (based on your au TLD), I can't say for sure, but it's definitely not the case in the U.S. If I download something from a server that's copyrighted, without authorization, both the client (me) and the server are violating copyright. I'm doing the copying, and the operator of the server is probably in violation themselves (for making the copy that's present on the server), but also for distribution and contributory infringement.
This is why, for example, the RIAA can go after music downloaders, as well as uploaders. Generally it's easier and more effective to go after the distributors of unauthorized content rather than the end users, but the law allows for a "demand side" approach as well.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I really wonder if companies that go on the warpath over internet copyright violations really think in their long-term best interest. Look at the RIAA, for instance. For all of the money they've spent and the lawsuits they've threatened, they're back at square one when it comes to halting internet file sharing. What makes Hal Leonard think that they'll do any better, especially because guitar tabs are just TXT files and arguably even easier to redistribute?
I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
I really wonder if companies that go on the warpath over internet copyright violations really think in their long-term best interest.
You make a common mistake -- thinking that a "company" has a brain of its own somewhere. Obviously, it doesn't; it's made up of people -- and those people are working in their own best interest.
It may be, and probably is, that the interests of the people running the company, and perhaps even the majority of the stockholders, are not the same as the interests of the "company" as an organization.
For instance, it might be in the major stockholders' best interests to do idiotic things that will get them media attention, and run the share price up, so they can sell it, make a bundle, and leave some other people with the bag. Witness SCO -- I hate beating a dead horse around here, but it's a great example. If the people at SCO have any brains at all (debatable, sure), they could be making tons of money while simultaneously running the organization into the ground.
It's quite possible to crash and burn a company and come out on top; some people have practically made careers out of it.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
"We're sorry, but we are unable to show you this digital sheet music. That would require our Viewer plugin, which is not yet available for your current web browser and/or operating system."
They ought to consider using open formats like MusicXML and running the picture||PDF generator for the browser to show on the server-end.
Beyond that, why do web authors continually insist on fixed width pages where upped font sizes will never work and plus it looks bad? My Firefox is set to 12 pt minimum so it messes up that page. Ever since I really started looking into web accessibility like a year ago, I have stemmed away from using invisible tables for page layout and fixed width for my designs.
This reminds me so much of the ep where the Simpsons are Christmas caroling to various neighbours, and they come across Burns's lawyer. He informs that they can't sing certain carols due to copyright by Disney. Homer promptly goes "D'oh!", as he does. The lawyer says "That was D flat, also copyright Disney. You may use any other note you like. "D'oh!" in C#. It would be funny if it wasn't so completely ridiculous.
I'm in to sadism, bestiality and necrophilia. Am I flogging a dead horse?
... is Woody Guthrie spinning in his grave so fast it's affecting the Earth's orbit.
...that we still have YouTube! After all, they seem to handle all the lawsuits really well, so I'll just surf YouTube when I want copyrighted entertainment. It's a lot like free porn in that you only get to see short clips before you have to start clicking again, but hey, that never stopped us from porn surfing, did it?
The damn tabs are usually wrong anyway I've found! But I would hate to see these disappear! What's next? Banning audacity so that guitarists/bassists like myself won't be able to slow down songs while preserving pitch to find out what the musicians were doing?
-Myke
If I was to write down, for example, the button sequences you press in guitar hero to perform a song from the game, would that infringe artist copyright?
e.g. does:
'green green yellow red green green green green green green green green green green green yellow green red green' infringe an artist's copyright? If so, whose? and why?
and, if i wrote down:E E G B E E E E E E E E E E E B G A# F#, does that infringe an artist's copyright? If so, whose? and why?
and if i wrote down:does that infringe an artist's copyright? If so, whose, and why?
And if i was to assign a number to each note, who's copyright does:
001001003026001001001001001001001001001001026004 0025002 infringe?
I just don't see where the infringement comes from? Who am I copying here? Am I copying at all, or did I just make that riff up?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
A songbook publisher doesn't like the idea of guitar tabs made available free.
No kidding.
In related news, Turkeys are said to be very concerned about the celebration of Christmas and US-based turkeys have expressed concern over thanksgiving.
Furthermore, the Pope shits in the woods and bears are generally catholic.
The point about the management of modern corporations is they want to control the whole thing. They don't care about whether a new generation of musicians can eventually play an instrument or not because in their mind, it is they who generate new musicians. Waiting for somebody to step up and play is too unsafe because no business plan can cover that. This is where talent shows and retort bands come into play. Nobody seriously wants to hear them but for the management they are plannable. Somebody who happens to learn from sheet music is not. It the same phenomenon like the food industry and everywhere else. They want to control the thing, so they produce food that can be easily consumed. People over time will stop learning how to cook things themselves so that they will ultimately depend on industry products. Voila, goal reached, share prices go up, no matter what collateral damage is caused. In the meantime, the management sucks us all out. I am not a commie, mind you, but what happens now is capitalism in its most brutal form. Gains are privatized, and losses are burdened upon the public. It's all the same phenomenon in different incarnations.
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
I just don't understand what the extension of copyright brings to the people running the companies you speak of. They're mostly middle aged I would think, and apart from stuff that's about to go public from old age (Mickey Mouse) they'll likely die before losing their monopoly. Are they that concerned with their kids? Is it just pure greed? ("Sure I can't ever use or spend this money, not in my lifetime, but more == better!")
> It's quite possible to crash and burn a company and come out on top; some people have practically made careers out of it.
A certain son of a certain former first world leader comes to mind...
I think its amazing that one of the complaining artists on the OLGA take down notice
http://www.olga.net/060621-nmpa-p6of6.jpg
Is Peter Garrett, now a member of the Australian Parliament and part of the shaddow cabinet as the Arts and Environment Minister.
http://www.petergarrett.com.au/
I think it would be good to do some lobbying on this issue, seeing he is indicated as being directly involved in this agenda!
Somebody must have a copy of the OLGA archive tucked away somewhere?
Make it available as a torrent!
Its time to start killing off CEO's that act like pricks. And no, i dont mean that figuratively.
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2007/04/some-thoughts- on-copyright-offensive.html
If so, please leave a comment over there. We might get a brainstorm going...
all the best,
drew
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
The very first thing I did when I got online was not rummaging around for porn (there would be plenty of time for that!), it was a search for all of the Primus bass tab that I could get my hands on. It was the reason I wanted to get the 'net. I was at a friend's place and he went to WebCrawler and did a search for me. I was awed that there was such a resource potentially at my disposal. I was surfing the net within a week of that day.
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
Tab websites getting harrassed by corporate interests really angers me. But, there are alternatives too. The best way to learn a song on your own (next to tab) is to slow the song down in Windows Media Player or Guitar & Drum Trainer freeware. You can slow it down to half speed or more, loop it, and pick out the notes yourself. This is usually more accurate than tab. I would never never never pay for tablature, so I say stop harrassing people who share guitar knowledge online. Corporations do not own the internet or should be allowed to police free speech.
You are all that's wrong with society.
We have given you ubiquitous TV to occupy your spare time and engineered the economy to require your participation in mindless drudgery at all other times.
We have engineered a political system with little choice but giving the impression of democracy.
Your purpose is to produce and to consume. You have no choice. We will continue to do everything in our powers to close the loopholes.
We are watching you and the diminishing number of similar threats to our perfect machine. The goal is nearer than ever before.
This whole thing makes me wonder if it's going to be illegal to post cheat codes, walkthoughs, game FAQs, etc, online now. After all, the companies which publish the game hint books have to be galled at the fact that people are putting online for free the same kind of information which goes into those ultra-expensive to publish game strategy guides and hint manuals. While people might derive it from independent sources (like actually playing the game), it might not matter to the copyright gestapo... This does raise another question: Are gamers going to start using code to post game FAQs online? So, instead of "Go to the well, talk to the purple elf and when the three orcs attack, kill them and take their amulets," it'll be: "Move legs by drinky-drinky, move mouth near the 420nm wavelength reflecting object which may be IP of the Tolkien estate, non-Gandhi the 4 minus 1 525nm wavelength reflecting objects which are IP of the Tolkien estate, remove neckline apparel."
Copyright etc. aren't just not a fundamental right, they aren't rights at all: They are privileges, i.e. something granted to you by someone else (in this case congress).
Two centuries from now I think there's going to be a big dead zone in cultural history. I refer to the bulk of 20th century art, which it will be difficult to preserve and keep relevant as long as *all copying without permission is illegal.
Millions of great pieces of pre-Gutenberg literature were lost because of inadequate technology. Millions of pre-Internet pieces will be lost because of politics.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
yeah, right.
ain't no artists who kin write
ain't no more songs that have bite
pop music today it just blows
stuff bout shooting 'n' bitches 'n' ho's
stuff today gets me depressed
more 'bout showing off yo' breasts
public enemy said "fight the power"
You wanna say that
gotta pay lawyer by the hour
He did say he had some natural talent at playing instruments/music.
They do have a good point on the quality side of things...
Very, very few tabs on sites like Olga come even close to the quality of a decent tab book.
F5, A#5, G5, C5 may well be the chords to the main part of Teen Spirit but tells me nothing about strum patterns, rhythm, which strings I should be missing on certain strums, etc. It tells me nothing about C and F notes that chime out afterwards.
Ironically, for all the claims of "I'm not good enough to figure out how to play a song by ear..." - to use most online tabs, aside from getting pointed in the right direction, you really do need to have an ear for rhythm, an ear for when exactly the chord changes happen, what the strum patterns are, when to use up vs. downstrokes, etc.
There is a major problem in the printed music world that only better known artists merit the expense of producing a good tab book and that most of those books are only available via special order. Still, when they do exist, when you can find them (this is starting to sound like the A-Team), the world of difference between them and the average tab is astronomical.
I'm caught in the middle: I'd hate to see high quality publishing disappear but I also don't see low quality, text based tabs (that often have five different, all disagreeing, version) really being that much of a threat.
Then again, in a world where record companies are trying to shore up CD sales, about about including a DVD with video files of exactly what the artists' hands did when playing the songs, lyrics and scores included? Given the choice between iTunes' $0.99 a limited song and $1.29 an unlocked one, I'd rather drop $15 on an album that'll teach me how to play its content as well. Sure, on a one-off basis, those costs would be huge but if it were done for every album, economies of scale could turn it in to a day's filming, a quick editing job and a day or two of a cheap person transcribing it.
and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and get a cease-and-desist letter from the publishers of Izaak Walton's The Compleat Angler.
OK, I'll bite.
My knowledge of capitalism pays my bills. You can't win that fight. Also, I didn't bash capitalism, I explained that capitalism is a theory on a method of resource distribution. I have no problems with it. I also realize, like certain economic theories, capitalism is a normative theory, ie "this is how it ought to be." My degree is in positive economics and econometrics, or "what is." Both are important, but I don't teach, nor am I qualified to teach, normative economics. I don't care how to determine what "ought" to be. I have enough fun determining what is. In fact, I generally (and unfairly) disdain the idea that there "ought" to be anything. Simple fact is, competitive force will drive piracy and looting, in some form or another, in capitalist implementation. Your idea of "free association" is entirely "Objectivist" and has no bearing on reality or practice. It's the drivel of an egotistical armchair philosopher.
I'm going to fail you at comprehension, and give you 1/2 credit since your post isn't exactly wrong. I certainly didn't mean to push your Randian buttons. Next time, please post with a name, what you said requires no shame.
The current trend is to own the necessary information for group and identity formation. And you are most likely right, it's completely impossible to do so. People will just ignore the laws and restrictions.
To fight against the torrent of basic human behavior, you either need to have a darn good plan, or just be incredibly stupid. The more I see stuff like this, the proposed copyright expansion, and CSS/AACS, I realize no one has a good plan.
I have no problem with them. They are an economic tool, just like currency. Properly applied, they can move innovation and creativity faster than without them. Poorly applied, they will move innovation slower than without them.
Take for instance music. Before copyright, you still had a rich heritage of folk music and poetry. You didn't have many widely distributed books before a few hundred years ago, because we had no mechanical means of reproduction. And much of the reproduction we did do through scribes was to combat loss of material (scrolls disappear and disintegrate). Widespread literacy and mechanical reproduction were served by copyright (the history of which is fascinating). In England, the fight was really bitter, with the king settling on the idea of limited copyrights and the public domain. Length of copyright took into account times it took to widely distribute literature in a decidedly pre-modern world with slow reproduction, high costs, and difficult distribution. And still, copyright was less than 30 years (if I remember off the top of my head, certainly not the lifetime of the creator or longer). 30 years to distribute books wasn't really unreasonable in the early 1800s.
Today, shorter copyright would be better, but that's a long discussion, and you probably agree. Further, with or without copyright reform, the market for copyrighted works will tend towards efficiency, not inefficiency. To control a good, you need strict control, and you need limited points of control. A widely distributed, trivially copied, perpetual medium (digital) is neither limited or possible to strictly control. Then again, with such easy methods of distribution, you can have complete worldwide distribution in seconds, not years, and a first mover advantage is monumental.
Old shapers and bards were the music distribution medium of their day, and they freely shared and stole stories and songs. They were forced to change when civilization changed, and we no longer see them. Demand, market forces, and the new possibilites of technology may dictate that we give up the last 100 years of music distribution. We may have to deal with a completely different entertainment model. But I don't think we can use the courts to dictate rational actions and force us to ignore the new reality of technology.
I also wanted to say you made some very good points.
What really annoys me is that MXTabs' drum section shut down a couple of years ago from fear of copyright cases. Drum tabs usually aren't THAT hard to work out for yourself, but I mean really, it's DRUM tablature - are they REALLY copyrighting that 4/4 rock beat? It's not as if that person actually invented it for themselves, nor that if someone copied it they'd be reducing the sales of whatever band's songs. I can MAYBE understand the controversy about guitar tabs (though, I don't agree with it), but seriously, drum and bass tabs really are quite generic (at least in comparison), and all they do is educate budding musicians and encourage them to listen to that band's music. Seriously, where is the problem here?
Someone should take a current version of that zip and propogate it...
nt
So if I figure out the chords to a song, could that be legally construed as decrypting some publisher's IP? I listen to the song, and reverse engineer it so that I can duplicate it.......... IANAL but I could imagine some scenario where an over-the-top executive decided to go after those chord pirates!
Insane!!
So, I've read through a lot of the posts here and RTFA. One poster made an excellent suggestion. That suggestion would be to try to get the artists themselves behind this to an end that would hopefully return OLGA to the world.
I discovered OLGA well after I started to learn guitar and in some cases, OLGA taught me what I thought I heard was flat out WRONG!!! I've got a couple of tabs posted in OLGA and around the internet at other tab sites and there is a notice that it's my interpretation of the song. I just found it a few minutes ago.
Getting back to my point, I fully support the notion of bringing this to the attention of artists that may very well care about this issue and the lack of future learning and influence that will occur without the tab community. If any folks are interested please email me privately and we'll see if we can get together online and get something off the ground. We could draft some kind of letter and send it out to artists and groups that care about music and the learning process of music.
Some examples of contact of those that might care about this and possibly help...
Pearl Jam
Queensryche
Metallica (I'm going to get shot for this one)
Black Label Society
Ozzy
Cheryl Crow
Rush
VH-1's Save the Music Foundation (maybe???)
I've personally had it with this attitude of "revenue through litigation". Tabs are our (read the common person's) interpretation of how we hear a song played. I miss OLGA and it's time to bring it back.
I hope to hear from some folks a maybe this can become something that gets noticed.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
I do find it kind of surprising that you can't find a zipped up archive of all of the OLGA contents on some of the BitTorrent sites out there, especially the ones operating outside of the the US where copyright laws may be a bit greyer about these kinds of interpretations of music. How big can the archive be? IIRC, all of the OLGA chord and tab files were plaintext, so I imagine they would compress quite well. Despite the fact that there is a lot of music that I don't particularly care to learn to play, it would be nice to be able to have the entire archive on my computer.
On another note (though this would never happen given the current copyright climate), wouldn't the various Wiki software be PERFECT for an OLGA type site where users can easily correct mistakes and such that they find in the various tab files? I would love to see something like this, but unfortunately, I guess it will never happen, unless someone sets up a "Project Gutenberg" type site for public domain music scores and such...
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
What I find the most disturbing is that most of such sites like olga.net which host individual guitarists interpritations of popular songs. There is a difference between postin the actual notes and what a person thinks is the actual notes. In most cases the submitted works are derivitives and are not completely accurate. Which is not illegal since musical notes themselves can not be copyrighted, only melodies can be. Artists use what's called sampling in their songs which are actual soundbits from other songs which ARE copyrighted and are not royality free. However, if you change the notes abit or add additional notes throughout, then you are actually changing the song, thus not the same song and not copyrighted material. Also most copyrighted materials may be used for personal entertainment such as viewed at home or the like. This whole thing is one step away from making it illegal to borrow your friends dvd's to watch in the privacy of your own home and then later return.
I would certainly do this if I had access to those files. Once the cat is out of the bag and spread over the various bittorrent networks, there would be nothing the copyright cartels could do to stop it.
As it stands now, I would have to google every tab file on the internet to try to rebuild the original OLGA from scratch. That is not practical for a single individual.
I'm not asking for a constantly updated new OLGA.torrent. What surprised me is that there isn't an OLGA.zip.torrent out there that covers all of the files from OLGA and/or its mirrors up to the time they were shut down.
OLGA went offline, but did they erase their hard drives as well?
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
You are right. I could take the initiative. Maybe I will do so with some of the bands that I like: compile all of the tabs and chords that I can find and put them into an archive. Of course, this is a violation of the law as it currently stands, but I disagree with the abuse of copyright law by these companies, so I don't feel bad about it.
Anyway, my main point was that, given the way things are spread these days when the copyright cartels want to put a lid on them (see the recent hex keys events and such), I was surprised that this hadn't happened for the OLGA stuff. It just seems like it would have happened, but unfortunately (obviously), it didn't.
Of course, the way things happen on the internet have changed a LOT since OLGA went down, so I guess that explains it.
Cheers. :)
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."
is the whole public domain migration process..
At what point does the transcription of a song, or knowledge of how to play it become common knowledge.
Is there anyone who plays guitar who doesn't know how to play or know the key riff of:
smells like teen spirit
stairway to heaven
enter sandman
etc.
what's next a crackdown on wikipedia by encyclopedia makers and people who want to sell you that knowledge?
It almost goes without saying that they will target gamefaqs.com next.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. Shouldn't they have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you deliberately went out and copied or enetered via hand the tab from their book or one of their publications. How else could I be infringing on their copyright.
If there is no publicly availble (via sale) tab book for an album could I even possibly infringe on it by posting a tab. Or wouldn't I then have the tab and now the publisher would infringing on my copyright?
Are they going to target how-to guide on the internet next saying you should by the instruction manual?
Much as VCR was excluded for its degrade of quality compared to live broadcast and dvd back in the day, shouldn't a text file containing nothing but fret numbers and such (aka not a pdf) recieve the same safety.
Why don't i just quickly write a program to generate all the 4 note patterns of notes, and post that.
Yes I understand there is a serious issue that they have some claim too in regards to people copying the stuff straight out of the tab books and then posting it, but to me it seems like the manner in which they are restricting is going beyond their rights. Instead of preventing me from doing that, they are now preventing me from legitimate activity.
Furthermore any band that allows taping at concerts shouldn't be allowed to do this because you could just record what they do and write a tab from that...
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
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