Slashdot Mirror
FBI Seeks To Restrict University Student Freedoms
amigoro writes with a link to the Press Escape blog, which is discussing new guidelines suggest by the FBI for university administrations. The Federal Bureau, worried about the possibility of international espionage via our centers of learning, now sees the need to restrict the freedoms of university students for national security. "FBI is offering to brief faculty, students and staff on what it calls 'espionage indicators' aimed at identifying foreign agents. Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel, showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators."
Did universities in the United States become part of the FBI?
It appears that that paragraph is a gross exaggeration of what the FBI is proposing, and indeed further in the article University spokespeople talk about a possible "chilling effect", not about the kind of wholesale assault on freedoms suggested.
I don't like the FBI sticking their nose into other people's business, but let's at least try to represent the problems accurately.
Three Squirrels
Federal agents are visiting some of the New England's top universities... to warn university heads about the dangers of foreign spies and terrorists stealing sensitive academic research.
FBI is offering to brief faculty, students and staff on what it calls "espionage indicators" aimed at identifying foreign agents.
Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel, showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators.
What a paranoid and counterproductive list. Isn't the information in bold just about everyone who works in academia?
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
That's how you tighten the cuffs.
Deleted
Unexplained affluence
:-)
Ummmm, that is what an education is supposed to get you.
failing to report overseas travel
Oh, my students are supposed to check in with me everywhere they go?
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
Hey! I want my students to explore new and interesting things. That is what they are here to do.
keeping unusual work hours
They had *better* be working their asses off.
unreported contacts with foreign nationals
Ummmm, collaboration? There are folks outside the US that *are* doing exciting science you know...
unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials
OK, I might give them this.
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know
Oh, jeez..... these people have been in government too long. Compartmentalized information is certainly appropriate, but in an educational setting, where people are not doing sensitive work? Come on now, if you are involved in classified work, you have to pass background checks and *obtain* clearance, particularly for compartmentalized projects.
and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators.
Sure, whatever. They might also be skiing...
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
"...showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope..." A true thirst for knowledge will arrouse suspicion? Do we really want this? Controlling information is the first step down a nasty road.
[quote]
Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel, showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators.
[/quote]
Other than the first point, that describes a large portion of the college population (especially at the graduate level).
The problem with a guide like this is that it returns too many false positives. The odds of a single person who fit most of those characteristics out of a group of 20,000 being a terrorist is almost nil. Yes, it will be true in some cases, but not in enough to warrant the massive investment in time. All this does it put people's minds at ease that the government is Doing Something.
OHHHHH NOOOEEESSS! Teh trrists r in ur skools stealin ur secrets! Seriously though, when does it end? At what point do we say enough is enough with this fearmongering?
"Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
Looks to me like 99% of all college students meet quite a few of their espionage indicators.
Here's an idea. How about not passing laws that further disillusion Americans into becoming terrorists?
This is like lowering the speed limit to try and stop drag racing.
IOU one (1) signature
The DIA guidelines on "combating the insider threat" refer to people with security clearances of at least SECRET. That's a standard list, and goes back to at least the 1950s. The article doesn't make a connection with it being applied to universities.
What's puzzling about this is that it's totally out of touch with reality. The USSR was interested in American R&D, but that's because they had an industrial base and weapons plants that could use R&D. No enemy of the US today has anything like that. (North Korea and Iran, maybe, but they're mostly trying to do things the superpowers did in the 1950s.) Al-Queda consists of loosely affiliated small groups that use off the shelf weaponry. This seems a mis-aimed effort, which isn't unusual for the current administration.
There is nothing in that article the describes the restriction of students' freedoms.
Instead, the FBI is advising these universities on how they can protect themselves from those that would steal important research.
As bad as the government might be, I don't see what good it does to distort the facts.
at my university, the lights are always on because GRAD STUDENTS DON'T SLEEP. my office has a hammock!
looks like they'll be locking us all up. good thing: now i can sleep!
Sounds like McCarthyism all over again.
-----
Police State T-Shirt
Funny Shirts @ ProStoner.com
This is why everyone should switch to a major of Business or English Lit or Basket Weaving. Let 'em reap what they sow. Hasten the demise of the police state by the only means possible -- passive resistance.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Perhaps with the exception of frequent meetings with foreign government agents, I think the FBI just described the vast majority of college students.
1) Unexplained affluence: What trust fund kiddie brags about the money he has coming from his dad?
2) Failure to report overseas travel: Sex tourism is a big industry, mang.
3) Interest outside job scope: They're called hobbies, guys.
4) Unusual work hours: We're fucking students. We go to class during the day. We work for our beer money when we can.
5) Unexplained absences? Yeah, regular attendance has always been a hallmark of the average college student. Three letters: T, H, and C.
I hate you, FBI.
Except for the fact that this is targeted at foreigners, not "Fellow Americans."
This is socialist anti-American misinformational FUD, pure and simple. The blog article even admits as much by linking to the World Socialist Web Site.
Just remember, folks: the bullshit flows freely from both sides, not just from the Bush Administration.
So everyone who plays WoW (unusual work hours, to catch up), plays MUDs or goes on IRC (unreported contacts with foreign nationals), provides an EU government with Linux tech support (unreported contact with foreign government), applies patches to SELinux from the NSA's counterparts elsewhere (military, or intelligence officials), wants a Classical Education or wants to learn additional subjects out of enjoyment, interest or geekiness (attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know), or goes to play pinball at the student union hall instead of attending class (unexplained absences) is a spy?
That makes 99.9% of all student population spies, and a good 75% of all lecturers. When will the DoD launch a bombing campaign on Skull and Bones secret meetings? Oh, they can't - they all belong.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Replace "terrorist" with "communist" and it's 1950 all over again.
I almost wish we had the Cold War back. At least the enemy was clearly defined and kept 100% of the government's attention. Now that there's no clear enemy, we feel the need to go after everything.
And with the Cold War, at least there was a permanent stalemate on both sides...neither side would even think about launching an attack because they'd get wiped out in the process. Tense, but it kept people at bay.
We should report observations of one or more of the following indicators pertaining to a person with access to classified information...
This seems to make perfect sense. If schools want the money that comes from doing classified research they should be vigilant in making sure that that research stays classified.You can still do exactly what you were doing before. You don't need permission to do those things, but this article says that people should be taking note of them because they're suspicious activities. Lacking privacy != Taking away your ability to do things.
Here is a simple way we can solve this issue -
How about the government stop giving money to universities that do any research that has any possible application to weapons/energy/advanced materials/particle physics - they can give the money to defense contractors and while it will cost more money than student slave labor we can all rest easy at night knowing that we will be safe - of course the professors that teach these subjects will either have to find new things to work on unrelated to the areas above or go to work for said defense contractors (assuming they are US citizens who can get a security clearance) or they can start working for other governments - with no students doing any relevant research that will get them a job with said defense contractor my job will be safe for years to come !! I am sure the FBI would go along with this plan !!
A small addition to the primer:
No chatting with chicks or family abroad, no slashdotting on foreign related articles and no addmittance to foreign hotels without notifing the FBI.
Lots of classified stuff is done at universities. Lots more stuff which ought to be classified is done there as well.
It's everything from actual weapons-related stuff to things which we'd not like to have sucked up by some economic espionage program.
Who decides to go south to Mexico for spring break. (He's smuggling drugs, definitely)
Who simply can't get a job and somehow lands a position delivering pizza at 2:00 am (yes, even Physics students must do that kind of stuff. They might really have a pizza loaded with plans for world domination)
And the ones who want to expand their knowledge! (An art student interested in high level math, an English student who likes piloting air planes, a biology student who likes to knit... all spies...)
Wouldn't this beat the whole point of going to college for learning?
Someday 40 years after this, plenty of documents on this subject will be declassified and the people then will look back and realize how needlessly paranoid the government was back in 2007... Like we do when looking at CIA documents from 40 years ago.
Give Kashyyyk back to the Wookies
Unexplained affluence, - Do many student jobs pay anything other than cash in hand?
failing to report overseas travel, - Fortunately, ending up in New Zealand, Russia, The Cannaries, etc. wasn't something that needed to be reported when I was a student.
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, Given how little interest I paid inside the scope of my course, the moment I showed interest in anything, it was unusual. Plus it was pretty common for us to randomly sit in on other lectures that looked interesting.
keeping unusual work hours, CS major + jolt + projects + MUDs
unreported contacts with foreign nationals, I married a foreign national I didn't report meeting while at university.
unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, Should we ignore the university housing me with a guy from the Singapore military?
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, If I had only learned what I'd needed to know, I'd be a lousy employee now. The fact that I learned to do a whole bunch of things outside my course's scope is part of why my career's been vastly more successful than it would otherwise have been.
and unexplained absences In my day, we called these "lectures." I don't know anyone who a) didn't have plenty of absences and b) explained any of them.
Clearly, I must have been a terrorist... Or an absolutely normal CS major.
Mind you, I'm also the grandson of a man who tried to enlist in the British Army during World War II - already being a marksmanship champion - and was told to piss off. He was only allowed to enlist once he had his medical degree and was promptly sent to Kenya. Unable to figure out why, he had a friend in intelligence check his record. It turned out that, back in the 30s, with Communism being the cool new politics with the kids, he and some friends came across Franco's envoy to London and relieved him of both ceremonial sword and pants. Though no charges were ever pressed, it ended up on his file and hence Kenya was the furthest place they could find from the Russians.
Which all goes to show how utterly silly such indicators tend to be.
Obviously, the FBI has a large number of brain-dead bureaucrats that serve no purpose but to create busy-work for others. The FBI needs to have its budget cut severely and get rid of them, reducing the number of Treasury bonds that we sell to the Chinese to pay for them.
...", and no one could be suspicious.
That entire list is untenable, and even proposing such a list is entirely out of touch with reality, as well as any oath to "support and uphold the Constitution of the United States of America".
"Unexplained affluence", for example, waiting tables to supplement the trust fund, or the "photo shoot", may be legal but socially unacceptable and, therefore, kept quiet.
To whom is a college student required to report "overseas travel", such as spring break in the islands or Mexico, skiing in Canada, and vacation trips, other, perhaps, than the parents funding their education?
"information outside the job scope" is called education and all students and faculty are supposed to be seeking that.
There are no usual work hours for students.
There are many foreign nationals legally studying and employed in the United States. There is no requirement, nor should there be, for anyone other than holders of certain security clearances to keep track of and report the nationality of the acquaintances, nor their possible position within a foreign government.
"attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know"? What is "need to know" other than an open-ended control trip? It is a bureaucratic tool most usually used to hide information that is embarrassing to some official or agency, not dangerous. The whole "Freedom of Information Act" is exactly the opposite of its name. Unless there is an immediate danger of physical harm to the citizens of the nation, the information should be published, and not hidden in layers of bureaucracy intended to prevent the citizens of the United States from making informed decisions (yeah, I know, as if they could tear themselves away from the celebrity du jour) about the actions of their government.
"unexplained absences"? Explain to whom? Besides, all any potential foreign agent would have to say is "I was: hung over; playing StarCraft(or WoW); picking up my clothes from
Why are slashdot readers more prone to going apeshit insane over a blog post? Here is the website of the actual FBI group that works to protect domestic research and technology. It is a good read and will communicate far more useful, accurate information than a blog post.
In the early 1990s, I met a former Chinese army officer who readily admitted to me that he had worked as an espionage agent while studying in graduate school in the US.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Thinking back to my University years:
"Unexplained affluence"
I splurged on the xtra large pizza with all the toppings.
The university cops asked where I got the money and I told them to mind their own business.
failing to report overseas travel
U.S. Customs already knows, and it's none of the University cop's damn business.
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
I'm looking for a promotion, what can I say?
keeping unusual work hours
I have classes during the daytime, I have to work nights and weekends.
unreported contacts with foreign nationals
The South Korean chick was cute. Wait, she was the only chick in the Engineering department. No, I'm not going to tell you what we were doing at the flagpole at 3AM but no it didn't involve whipped cream.
unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials
Remember that trip abroad? It was to South Korea. That chick's dad is a Sergeant in their Army.
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know
Um, I didn't NEED to know the combination to the Dean's office safe, but how else was I going to get the dead rat in there?
and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators.
I wasn't about to rat out my new frat brothers for hazing me too hard. I can still taste the puke but it was worth it since Brother Able got me that first interview 4 years later.
They read /. just like the rest of us.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
I call shenanigans!
What is this "unreported contact with foreign governement, military, or intelligence officials", or "unreported contact with foreign nationals"? Who the f#c% are people supposed to report this kind of harmless stuff to?
OH NO! a bunch of Mexicans work for the company that cleans our office space, gotta call the FBI!
OH NO! my neighbor works at the French Consulate, gotta report our argument about the hedge to the CIA!
OH NO! that student in class next to me is from another country, gotta call the NSA!!
OH NO! a fleeting wave of curiosity just passed over me, gotta report myself to Alberto Gonzales!!
As far as the unusual work hours for academics, maybe they mean that 8-5 is suspicious?
-- QED
That's funny - what's the usual hours for a graduate student? Or even an assistatn prof? I've work night's, mornings, afternoons - I'd probably have been picked if this was considered back when I was in grad school
"unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials
OK, I might give them this."
I had contact whilst in my first year of university with a nice guy who worked in Islamabad for the Pakistan government. I think he was based in the intelligence side of their civil service. I had a few beers with him and his friend and we talked for a bit. I saw him a few times after that but not in any great detail. Under these rules would I have had to have known that I would meet him before I did and file a report 3 months ago so that I could speak to him? should I report everything that we talked about to the nice friendly agent after (which was generally just lamenting the politicisation of the civil service in both our countries).
Its not even like this sort of thing is a one off, I also met an officer from the Norwegian army on a night out, he was alright to talk to... bought me a pint. One of my friends is a foreign national who is being conscripted when he gets back to his native country - would that count too?
These rules seem like they would be completely unworkable in the real world setting of a modern university. You should not support any of the ideas.
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
It is us "free and brave" Americans who are failing our ideals if we change our lawful behavior by one iota because of what the government regards as suspicious. If we are all (or an unmanageable big number of us) are suspect, then (hopefully) suspicion will be meaningless.
That changes nothing about what the original poster was saying. Vastly overstating a case does no good, and often does harm. If you tell me that the government is severely fucking over my freedoms, and I then come to discover you are full of shit, I am much less likely to listen to you in the future. The whole "boy who cried wolf" thing.
If you want to get your message out you need to be accurate. In this case, this whole thing is amazingly overstated. The guidelines are for people with security clearance, and the FBI isn't suggesting that universities apply them to students. That isn't to argue that this is a good thing, but please let's be accurate with what is going on.
Slashdot could be a pretty good source for news on governmental restrictions of freedom, but most of the time they vastly overstate what is going on. Thus it doesn't take someone long to conclude the people are full of shit and start ignoring it. Trying to rationalize it with a pithy saying does nothing but further show that it is about sensationalism, not truth.
The nation has been de-balled. It is a fait accompli. Neutered. It's mostly over, and the goons won. You can't do anything about it besides *talk*, and pretty soon that will be going the way of speech in china, their poster boy model nation, full technology, full police state, one major party, in the US it is the globalist party with two wings and their platform is full technofeudalism...
If you do anything besides talk, it is considered a major crime, and you therefore are a criminal, maybe a "terrorist", so it becomes self fulfilling prophecy of their's.
I remember a lot of civil disobedience to try and stop thoroughly disgusting governmental action, and it was dangerous then, but now, it is beyond dangerous, and they just won't put up with it. They have all the power they need now and plenty of order followers and a cowed-enough population who have more interest in entertainments and just making a living, a desperate living for a lot of people. Bread and circuses tempered with governmental "legal terrorism" makes for a controlled population.
Voting doesn't work, that is obvious. Even among the intellectually aware and politically active, the meme of "don't waste your vote!!!" is still quite strong and repeated endlessly, like some cult chant, and results in the same type and form and demographic makeup of government, election after election after election, which is, the completely corrupt R and D power sharing cartel which has hijacked government and runs it as a power and jobs sharing racket.
I vote, but it is inertia, more to say I still vote than for any expectation it will actually mean anything.
The short phrase is *sigh*
What's left, blog about it? You can't even go protest, step outside of the completely illegal and unConstitutional "free speech zones" and their mercenaries will arrest and/or beat you. Be a big enoug hassle to them, you go on the lists, and eventually won't be able to travel or change jobs even. It's coming. The population has sucked up the no fly list so far, no protests, meekly stand in line for the perv search and the humbling glares.
I knew once that got accepted without mass protest it was all over.
And stuff like that. Too tired to list them all, but there's a big list.
I'm not a pessimist, but I will consider myself a realist. We have a defacto low threshold but growing fast one party police state. It is only going to get worse for a long time to come now. They have found out they can get away with the largest crimes, with no revolt from the people, and a mostly controlled and tame media who go along with it, so small crimes are just part of the system now.
I think the best people can do now is try and stay as free and independent as possible, especially inside their own hearts, and see what opportunities present themselves in the future. Who knows, pigs may fly someday and we might get humble and honest and decent government some election time.
It could happen. Low odds, but still possible.
Reading the guidelines which the FBI purported to have given various University administrators, it is very clearly talking about ways of protecting classified information. In practice, most students do not have access to classified information, and so this would never even be an issue. For example, at MIT there is simply no classified research which takes place on the MIT Campus (MIT Lincoln Labs is not part of the MIT Campus), and I suspect this is true at most universities, simply because the requirements for keeping classified information and maintaining clearances for university employees and students are probably too obstrusive and too difficult for a university environment, all aside from the philosophical issues of whether or not doing classified research can be reconciled with an open academic environment.
So I think the blog "article" is making much ado over nothing. The document referenced by the article very clearly was not intended to be applied to all students, and only where classified information is concerned. It's identical to the sort of briefings that would be given to people in industry who hold clearances, at for people who hold certain level of clearances, it is required that they get briefed on this sort of thing once a year. But if you don't like that sort of thing, the answer is very simple; don't apply for or hold a security clearance.
Yeah, when I was at uni, I didn't trust the 9-5 types either..
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
The feds (who I have no love for, as a leftie who knows what they and the CIA have done to the left over the years - see the CIA's soon-to-be-declassified "family jewels,") are just offering to give university folks a briefing on what a spy looks like. That's OK. Everyone knows universities are hotbeds of espionage. That's not terrorism, not warfare, just trying to steal secrets, pass on information, primarily technical. I fear spies less than muggers and burglars, and I hate the hyper-paranoid national security types. But this is just a list ways you can tell who ISN'T a spy: doesn't have a bunch of money, isn't jetting off every other weekend, isn't hanging around with creepy people of the type who composed this list. It's good information, and people who don't think that espionage happens are silly. It's not a big deal, except in certain cases, and not worth getting worked up about in either direction - making this list or criticizing this list. I just appreciate the paranoid spooks telling me what a spy looks like - they probably know, so it's good information. As for "restricting freedom," this doesn't sound like any sort of policy that's going to be enacted. It's just an informational briefing the feds are offering! Lighten up!
Unexplained affluence (up to what point ? For some of us to have meat in the tomatoe sauce and the spaghetti was being rich)
Doesn't sound too unreasonable. If someone appears to have several hundred thousand dollars more than you might expect, it's at least worth looking into.
And while all of their indicators are pertinant to government employees, especially those in law enforcement or military, they make little to no sense in the world of academia:To whom exactly is a student supposed to report, aside from the IRS in the case of finance? And I've never heard of someone getting classified training at a university (althogh maybe that's the idea). I'm fairly certain that the purpose of universities is to expand the whole of human knowledge, not to partition it off and keep it secret. Most universities allow pretty much anyone to sit in on a class, even if they're not enrolled (provided there's room and they're not disruptive of course). Aside from that, limiting information to those who've paid for it (enrolled) doesn't sound like a particularly secure system.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Reviewing the source documents, I note that this list applies only to people with security clearances. So it is not as bad as the summary or article suggest. However, one wonders about whether there is an attempt to push a broader applicability of the list and then hide behind a few words that people may glance over....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Given that
I estimate that the probability that abuses - both willful abuse of the System, and unintentional [due to lack of understanding and simple stupidity] - will be perpetrated by all parties to the application of these guidelines approaches Unity.
I state as a corollary that the abuses which must take place will be amplified by the broader political and socio-ethnic-economic climate for maximum damage to the victims, who will almost certainly not be terrorists, or even remotely connected to terrorism.
Now if they had done this back in the 1970s when the Bush family was getting all their Saudi friends into US colleges, then maybe - just maybe - some of those holders of student visas at that time would not have become the Al Qaeda support network they later became... but that's water under the bridge, now.
If the FBI is really interested in stopping Terror and protecting State Secrets, they should, perhaps raid the Skull'n'Bones frat house... I'm sure the tribes would like to get Geronimo's skull back, at least, and its theft [by a scion of the Bush Dynasty, iirc] was a Federal crime. How's that for undistorted fact? Note that the theft of a skull is almost certainly in violation of local. municipal, and perhaps reservation ordinances against grave-robbery, as well - depending on the jurisdiction.
"The Internet is made of cats."
My question, and do forgive me if I overlooked this in the article, is how would this affect private universities? I'll be attending one in just a couple of months, and I know they operate under different guidelines than a public university, so how would something like this affect a student at a private university?
I'm a grad student and I have a hard enough time turning my student's grades in on time. I doubt I'm going to get around to report anything to the FBI. I'm making less than $13000 a year. That isn't enough for me to spy on my students. Give me a few thousand and I might think about it.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Warning signs from the FBI document:
Repeated irresponsibility.
An "above the rules" attitude.
Financial irresponsibility.
Repeated impulsive behaviors.
Extreme immaturity.
Willingness to violate the rights of others to achieve one's own ends.
Willingness to break rules or violations of laws and regulations.
Sounds like most gov'ment agencies, FBI, CIA, Congress, Executive Branch, etc. etc. etc. Phone it in, start the investigation...
Any one of these; even a few of them together, might not be cause for concern. But if you start seeing several of these signs for one individual it might be time to start worrying. I think they're on the right track teaching people to be aware, but they need to teach these same people not to be ludicrous. Witch hunts went out of fashion along time ago afterall...
I'm a huge civil libertarian and in fact will be engaging in some ACLU protest activities this week in DC. But this article on Slashdot is really almost to the point of being misleading. Read the original article and guidance document and you'll see that:
1) The guidance doc specifically says it is applicable to people with access to classified info. Not just students (unless they're working on classified info).
2) The guidance doc also goes to some length to say that these signs don't mean someone is a spy, that people should respect each other's privacy and that good judgment needs to exercised when considering whether to report something.
3) These are not being foisted on universities and there is no apparent attempt to try to get universities to enforce these guidelines. This is essentially a "heads up" list of things that often are associated with people who spy.
And remember: these are guidelines for people working on CLASSIFIED info. I HOPE people who work on (legal) classified projects keep an eye out for these kinds of things.
Now if we could only keep the USDOJ from spying on us without any court oversight, I'd feel MUCH better!
A humorless AC Troll taunts:
You've posted on average about 4 times a day on this site since you registered ... You're already on the [no life] list by default.
Big Sigh. I do wish I could be independently wealthy, like your boss Bill Gates, but I'm afraid that I have to work for a living. As long as I have a job or have to use a computer to look for one, the posts you love so much will be around. By the way, when did I register? You people are so much better at tracking that kind of unimportant thing than I am. Would you also be so kind as to post my M$ file one day? The way you people think makes me laugh.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Here is an interesting page about security clearance. It looks like it's specific to the Department of Defense. Look especially at the page on financial considerations.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
Secret detention centers, an unaccountable police force, an excessively powerful and secretive security force, and a war-based economy. Hmm... what does that remind me of? And now, we have government harassment of students, as if they're the only ones who ever support terrorists (rather than the US government itself, which paid for the formation of most of these terrorist groups in the first place).
Reds under the Bed.
2 12.12hambyt.html
It worked for McCarthy, it must work for the FBI again.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/12/12/reviews/991
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
This starts sounding a lot like pre-WWII Germany and the Soviet Union. Anybody done anything out of the usual, please report here, we'll investigate them, then we'll tag them (now we can do that with an embedded chip instead of with a triangle or a star).
What's next? I thought universities were to be the equivalent of the Greek knowledge centers where smart minded people come together to come up with even smarter things. No government, no rules are necessarily needed, a bunch of smart people should be able to govern themselves I guess.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
One positive side effect of the trend among university researchers to want to cash in big on their research is that the last thing they're going to do is let anybody "steal" it. A main effect of that is negative: the chilling of sharing on the frontiers of knowledge; but these people are protecting their precious IP even from colleagues who obviously aren't spies. We should feel sorry for the spies in this environment.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Exactly what freedoms did the article state were being restricted? I didn't see any such thing - merely some sort of awareness training for university administrators.
I all don't understand what exactly is the deal here regarding the research being discussed. Unclassified research is published in academic journals or reported in symposia that are freely available world-wide. There is no reason for anyone to spy on such research. The list of behaviors that was disscussed was the result of a DIA study regarding protecting compartmentalized secrets - very different from academic research.
Confusing, but here is what I have to say anyways.
Unless the FBI plans on making this into law, their wanting to do whatever has no legal effect.
Do you honestly believe this will affect what students do? Good universities won't stand for restricting freedoms.
Does anyone have a link to an article about this movement that ISN'T slanted so far it's almost vertical? I'm interested in reading into the details, but don't want to be shoved with either OMG US R DOOMED or trying to sugarcoat it.
since when do i need to "report" every thing i do to anyone? this thing reads like a paranoia manual.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
The AC Troll tries to be manacing:
"Would you also be so kind as to post my M$ file one day?"
that can crtainly be arranged willy. here, to the brlug, to your inbox and many other places. even the ones you dont know about. over and over and over. i can start running that script again, if you want. just ask nicely, it would be my pleasure.
Spamming the BRLUG was creepy, but it did not go very far. They all laughed too and told you to fuck off. Like everyone else, you dirt bags only have the power to disgrace yourselves.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There are stupid Americans(you seriously need to find a better term than "Yank" though, considering that it's pretty much equivalent to me calling anybody from the British Isles "English") on Slashdot, and quite a few of them are on my foe list so I can see them and know that a nutcase is ahead.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Wow, I hope you can be modded +100. Too bad I wasted my points on useless comments :(
failing to report overseas travel
Since when do you have to report overseas travel?
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
On my planet, this is called "ambition". It's a highly desirable quality in an employee.
keeping unusual work hours
All programmers and independent contractors are obviously spies, right?
unreported contacts with foreign nationals
Like what, eating at El Torito three nights in a row? Or joining the Swedish-American friendship organization so you can schmooze all those hot Swedish exchange students?
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know
Like trying to get on the ACL for that groovy large-format inkjet printer, even though you're "only" an English major?
unexplained absences
Of course, there are never any of those among university students.
Fucking morons. If the people in charge of our national security are this dimwitted, foreign spies are the least of our problems.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
If you put your mind on the possibility to seeing monkeys behind every corner for long enough, that possibility gains more reality after a while.
The spook job attracts particular characters and then, there they are, putting their hours of work in, with excitement.
The outcome is obvious here.
Funnily, one of the biggest spies in recent years was a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, extreme member of the Catholic Church(Opus Dei wasn't invented by Dan Brown, despite the fictional nature of the rest of the book), and among the most fervent anti-communists in the FBI.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
I'm guessing you don't live in London, Spain, Bali, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan, or Iraq. There are in fact organized groups of terrorists out there, and they want to cause real damage. And, sadly, there are far more than a "few hundred" of them and they are hardly "nuts." You're right that the US Government has exaggerated the threat to the American homeland for its own purposes -- most of the terrorists are fighting closer to home to affect governments that have more direct interaction with them -- but to say these organizations don't exist is hiding your head in the sand.
the agents often sit in front of their computers and have a lot of traffic?
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
...if you guys are so freakin' smart at detecting espionage, why didn't you know about Robert Hanssen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen?
Guys, I am all for freedom and privacy and etc. Believe me, I think the government often steps over bounds.
However, this article is a bit skewed. What the FBI are offering to brief are the basic indicators that are pretty mirror throughout the government and the armed services, and in industries where they pay attention to security and are included pretty much in every security clearance type annual briefing.
These are no big deal, people are being asked to watch for them, not to go on a witch hunt. This is the equivalent of telling someone what the "signs of potential suicidal depression" are. They are points people should remember in order to evaluate situations if they arise, and part of the briefing is generally that one indicator in itself is generally nothing, but stacking them is where you get suspicion.
Now, the moment they start some type of direct monitoring/logging program "just because" I am going to call foil.
YouStockIt - Education through Unorthodox Methods
[blah, blah, blah] i can post a link to that thread on the mailing list, if you want. i can be 'manacing' and all that. we are a lot of cool threads there otherwise, dont get all cocky, ok? just carry on....
I expect nothing less of you idiots than for you to do your worst and to be completely ineffective.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
From what I remember of my University days, it was the norm to keep odd hours, and not "report" my contacts with foreigners to anybody in particular. I had many interests outside of my school work and my job. Granted I didn't know many or my fellow students who were consorting with foreign governments, but a lot of the behaviors listed are not out of the norm for college students.
Marnex Products
All so easily overlooked... Fitting too that it was posted anonymously
"The sum of all knowledge does not imply the knowledge of all sums" Kurt Gödel (paraphrased)
. . . seen a college classroom lately?
Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel, showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators.Affluence? My students whine about buying the textbook, but they're out in the hall before class playing a PSP. They always ask strange questions "outside the . . . scope" of the lesson. Contact with military officials - do the army recruiters constantly parked outside the main entrance to campus count? As for unexplained absences, well I'm usually suspicious of the one that have extensive explanations for missing labs and exams.
All kidding aside, I'm in that classroom for one thing: to educate my students. If the FBI needs someone to do their job for them, then can call in the Geek Squad http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-09-for t-dix-clerk_N.htm
The next question is: What sort of classified information and research is done at universities? How much of it? What are the counter-intelligence ramifications? What is the appropriate response?
You'd think that anyone requiring security clearance is working on something super-duper secret that we can't share with the enemies. You'd think that.. but that assumes that the world works on some level of sanity.
A friend of mine worked on a physics project funded by the DOE about 10 years ago. I remember him telling me about it and being impressed. He quickly gave me the real story. I don't remember exactly what the research entailed, but it wasn't secret, it wasn't some weapons research, it was just a dumb bureocratic requirement.
So don't take any solace that this only applies to people who need security clearance. Security clearance is a joke.
AccountKiller
For academic work, you do want credit for the work you do, but it is very much to your advantage that people want to use it. So, interest by people in your field in the work you do is a sign of success. There are cases of industrial espionage where work that would lead to a patent on say, a drug, is stolen so that another company can get the advantage. But, baring this, you'd like the other company to license you patent in most cases.
s -selling-solar.html
Even when other researchers use your ideas without giving credit, or worse, misunderstand your clear statements and say that your work supports their work when it does not, they are relying on the credulity of students, who actually have to delve into a subject in detail and form their own opinions on the relability of the offending author.
So, the situation is much different from that where a researcher in a classified area may become a target for espionage. The guidelines in this case would seem to be more helpful in identifing those most likely to be successful in research: For example: so driven that they'll throw their own money at a project (strange affluence), called on to travel to conferences in other countries (foreign travel), making connections with methods or techniques in other fields (broad range of interests), and working round the clock to meet important deadlines (unusual work hours).
--
Get solar power like knowledge (pay as you go): http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Your average grad student exhibits almost all of those signs.
Bombing in the world is not new. What is new is that it is made a propaganda of it, and in addition that people pretend that a single organisation (S.P.E.C.T.R.E.^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z^Z I mean Al Quaeda) is handling the reign and direct all those bombing like a well ordered orchestra. and THAT is the ridiculous part. Long when Bush is gone there will be more bombing in other part of the world. (Heck even maybe in the US, done by one of those anti federal-nut).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
well like Communist Russia, if there not working for solely and purely for the mother land and reporting everything they do then they are the enemy.
wernt so many books written calming this is the end of the "American" dream ?
Except for one or two things maybe... that accurately describes every fucking grad student in our department.
And most of the faculty... and staff... and undergrads...
- I am made of meat.
Them darn commies are always hanging out at Universities...it's where they can drain us of our precious bodily fluids most easily.
..and after changing my formatting preferences..
..and no, it's not being handled well.
..and most importantly, to me - since we are more and more required to endure the loss of freedoms anyway, are there also government-funded research programs looking into finding new ways to avoid getting bombed -- preferably ones which don't erode or destroy the freedom (and consequentially the security) of the nation?
..of course.. ..aside from the fact that it would be more difficult than getting a party of twelve to agree on a common pizza, it's probably not likely to get funded and implemented in the first place, even if the idea occurs to someone to make a bill for it or some such.
There's a great saying, and it's been said a lot, in different ways, but it boils down to this: If we restrict liberty to attain security, we will have neither.
No, it's not imaginary.
I happen to think that freedom is not just a good thing, but that it is a necessary thing - just as responsibility and accountability are.
It has also been demonstrated that our government, as it clamps down on terrorism, is sacrificing what I consider to be the lifeblood and identity of the nation - that freedom which many hold dear. The more that freedom is taken, the more likely it is that some people will get severely pissed off. The more pissed off people there are, the more likely it is that there will be pissed off people that are more open to persuasion by unsavory ideals. That would mean a higher likelihood that someone here will bomb things, which is, as far as I'm concerned, not a good condition to be in as a country.
There are quite a few questions to be answered, that should be funded and looked into.
What is more likely to cause a breakdown of social order in the united states - loss of freedom, or terrorist bombings?
How likely is it that we will actually succeed at preventing terrorist bombings using methods that destroy or erode the freedom we ideologically base our national identity on?
It seems insane that these people want to bomb us. But they are probably not insane. Why did they do it? What motivates these groups? What motivates the leaders of these groups?
What methods of preventing bombings are successful, and which ones merely seem like they should work, or provide a false sense of security?
For things we implement because of urgency - are those going as planned? Are they working?
How can we increase our government's introspection without compromising our capacity to act?
I think we should get sociologists, game theorists, political science majors, former military generals, etc. into a working team to attempt to address these kinds of issues.
I am not an atomic playboy.
Damn, I come home to read this and my mod points JUST expired. Damn.
WTF?!?!
Half or more of that list describes common activities of all college students, not just foreign students.
Anymore, the crap going on in this country is like a bad McCarthy era flashback, with old J. Edgar running the FBI again.
This current administration seems to be unable to learn from history, and completely lacks common sense.
Boston Harbor is looking more like a teapot again every day. (and before some pedant tries to point out that taxation without representation was the hot issue then, look at yesterday's articles here-hint: Gov't. going back to taxing virtual goods in online games)
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Unexplained affluence = Many possibilities; some esoteric ones: I would have sold my forehead on ebay for advertising, sold my pack of 1950s archie comics for a good price, scrounged some more money from my parents, working at a McJob (ok, that's not good , but hey $50 is a LOT of money).
failing to report overseas travel= Especially if am going on something like on EuroTrip and making out with my..., Driving to mexico to enjoy corona at Point of Manufacture, Drinking so bad that i end up in Canada.
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope = Yup. Very true. Especially if there are hot chicks in Anthropology or Investment Banking classes...
keeping unusual work hours = HEY ! Am 19. OK?? I wake up at noon after a night of binge drinking.
unreported contacts with foreign nationals = Yup, the czech chick contact nos WILL need to be pried from my cold dead hands, especially since she thinks am the only one for her.
unreported contact with foreign government = Ya, its her dad's henchmen who paid me a "polite" visit to tell me she has a fiancee in Czech republic and her dad BTW is a FieldMarshall.
military, or intelligence officials = Ya, like i said earlier her dad was a fieldmarshall, i always wondered how could a beast like that spawn a beauty like her. I made the mistake of blurting it out to his henchmen and...
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know = WHAT??? Attending anthropology classes to meet up with the chick is now prohibited?
unexplained absences == Oh Yeeaahhhh !!! I likeed that one...
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
>'failing to report overseas travel' Um. Is not that the ultimate part of the freedome of being a student. Overseas travel on a budget. >Who has not done the tour of europe or worked in the bars of Australia.
Bribing customs to not stamp your passport? Somehow having the influence that they comply?
Anyway, the school administrators that will comply with this kind of request and the ones that will tell the federal bureaucrats to stick it, are the same ones, before and after that memo anyway. Changes nothing.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
This is nothing new. There are 2 ways to deal with crime/war: response and prevention.
A little simple research will show plenty of times when this has happened in the past. One very good example was the American-born student who pursued how to construct a nuclear device. Most decent public libraries will probably have the condensed version of the story in Reader's Digest back issues. This student did things like call DuPont and explain how he needed to make a controlled explosive blanket to compress a sphere on all sides with a specified amount of force. The DuPont folks told him which products and how to do it. There were a lot of other things like this. At the time, such information was not restricted and the Feds calmped down hard to change that situation.
Similar things have happened with gene-splitting and mutation of biological materials (The book Demon in the Freezer gives some good detail.)
Backbone infrastructure information has been classified or re-classified and removed from public dissemination because of its potential for high ROI (for lack of a better term) for sabotage.
This program looks like codification and methodology to better find out questionable activities.
Certainly, there is a point where interest in civil engineering is different from intelligence gathering to case a facility for future attack. At what point do all the factors indicate plausible danger? That's hard to say. Things like the prohibition of photography of federal buildings (which includes all Post Offices) seem quite excessive but it's probably a lot easier to make a simple rule than trying to harden every conceivable weakness and turn everyone into anti-terrorist specialists.
The first thing this news brought to my mind was how such a method would have been beneficial when a bunch of foreign flight students wanted instruction on flying, but not landing, jumbo jets.
This program doesn't look that much different than posters I saw in college that said something like "There are 100 sets of eyes for the campus police and 35,000 students. We can't be everywhere to protect everyone all the time. Report suspicious activity."
The goal is to catch sabotage/terrorism in the planning stage. There isn't a "smoking gun" at that point. Guns only smoke after they're fired.
Hmmm...smoking guns...kind of makes you think of Virginia Tech, too, doesn't it? There wasn't a proper environment to report and remove Hu, even though he was a dangerous lunatic and this was well known for a long time before he went on his shooting spree.
Just remember those immortal words spoken in the wake of 9/11 by none other than our fearless leader (and everybody else goose-stepping along)-- if we change the way our nation works, if we give into our fears and give up our freedoms, the Terrorists have won.
Welcome to the end of days, the new world order, Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum, the time when men must speak the name of the beast or wear his number in order to conduct business and to buy or sell.
The war in Afghanistan and Iraq have been going on for over five years now-- longer if you start counting from the first Gulf War. The weapons of mass destruction-- I mean, "the struggle between good and evil"-- er, ridding Iraq of Al Quaeda operatives-- uh, "confronting the terrorists in Iraq so we don't have to face them here at home"-- oops, I mean "liberating Iraq from the brutal dictactor Saddam Hussein"-- I mean (this is getting embarrassing) "for the oil", by which I really meant to say "bringing democracy to the middle east", uh-- how about "Remember the Maine???"
Somebody remind me, how long has it been since we "WON" the war? And if we "WON" it, why are we still there and taking casualities?
What is it about having all these NEFARIOUS ENEMIES that keep shifting to meet the administration's need du jur smells sickly like a cross between Orwell's "1984" and pre-nazi germany? All we need is a fire in the Reichtag-- er, Capitol building for the scene to be complete.
And I thought Osama, the guy who actually attacked us (supposedly) was in Pakistan anyway? What good is it to have all those fancy satellites and global hawks if they can't actually find the guy we're looking for??? Apparently they can spot everybody else (look up and wave for the camera!)
We've become increasingly adept at finding US CITIZENS IN THE USA and discovering what US CITIZENS are doing IN THE USA and listening to US PHONE CALLS IN THE USA and working to make sure that US CITIZENS aren't up to anything funny IN THE USA-- but what about all thos other countries that actually HATE US-- the ones who are PUBLICALLY ON-RECORD MAKING DEATH THREATS??? Why can't we find THOSE guys?
I thought the reason we were at war-- whichever reason that was-- spin the dial, pick one-- who cares-- was to PROTECT american freedoms and democracy IN THE USA by GOING AFTER THE BAD GUYS SOMEWHERE ELSE?
And if the FBI is concerned about some group giving out good ideas to Terrorists... why don't they turn on CNN where they sit there and blab about freely all day on every possible angle, attack vector and weak point there is IN THE USA along with full-color pictures and diagrams with circles and arrows explaining all the details and Wolf Blitzer and Miles O'Brian doing the play-by-play for any idiot that didn't get it the first time around???
And if the FBI is concerned about security, why not try securing their OWN computers IN THE USA along with those of the DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY IN THE USA that keep getting flunking grades for security-- not to mention getting hacked by every third-grader from Moscow to Beijing and everywhere in between...???
I think these are really good questions-- for a start-- and directly on-target with this discussion. What the fuck is the FBI doing on college campuses putting the lid on public discourse that's protected by the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION-- and if NOT in a SCHOOL/UNIVERSITY SETTING-- then WHERE for gosh sakes???
Its time people got together and told the Bush administration where to go and how many ways they can fold their scare dogma and stuff it up their righteous pompus assholes. And if anybody is wondering where to find Bush's asshole, just go to Google Maps and type in "White House" and then (take your pick): Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld (yes, I know he's retired) or any of a dozen or more NEOCONmen busy trying to hoodwink the American public and bushwhack us into giving up our rights and freedoms.
I spent a semester at UC Berkeley. Let's test these criteria against an average foreign student...
> failing to report overseas travel,
So, which governement organisation do I need to call if I want to visit my mom?
> showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
In Berkeley it is mandatory to take off-topic classes, called "DeCal". I had "theory of nonviolence" and "Energy and Society" as a EE major.
> keeping unusual work hours
Everybody did.
> unreported contacts with foreign nationals
At a university with 60% foreigners both in faculty and among students? In an area with many tourists? In a state with 30% mexican residents?
ROTFL
> unreported contact with foreign government
In Berekeley there even is a computer science institute funded by german government. Also, my stay in Berkeley was funded by the german government.
The request regular reports in return.
> contact with foreign military.
If I get a drafting letter, does that count?
> unexplained absences
No more exessive partying?
thanks for a country where nobody is allowed to mind his own business
thanks for a nation of finks
Williams S. Burroughs, Thanksgiving Prayer
Unexplained affluence - does my secret group of chinese gold farmers count? failing to report overseas travel - Mulgore ok by the FBI or not? showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope - Sure I'm a paladin, I keep this tier 0 warlock gear for the looks, k? keeping unusual work hours - Ummm... my connection at work is better than at home, and I gotta do this raid... unreported contacts with foreign nationals - Does a YIM list that covers the planet make me a bad person? unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials - And how the heck do I know who they work for? attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know - Curiosity is a crime now? and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators. So, now I'm a spy, ok, I'll be in all morning to accept my nice new Aston Martin DB9 vantage with the Q division gadgetry. You already have my number and email address if you need to re-arrange :p
How to make a flamewar in under F characters: I love SuSE!
I wonder how naive, wicked and stupid our western societies are? What so called multi-national western Democratic Societies in reality are 'Multi-Intelligence' or multi-spies societies. There is no doubt what so ever that our wicked western world is heavily infested with hypocrite multi-national spies (females & males alike), especially among students, teachers, researchers, politicians, clergy, corporates, interest & religious groups. That is why our western world is being perverted and screwed upside down. Our western world is riddled with spies, bigots and hypocrites to the point where our western world is unable to distinguish between the seeds and the bran. Our western world is becoming hostages to the entire spies of the world, especially Asia and the East. They are deceptively using Democracy and religions, especially 'Christianity' to achieve their objectives and fulfil their ambitions.
These certainly has to do with corruption and greed in our western educational institutes, corporates, religious groups, public servants and politicians. It is almost impossible to eliminate it for good.
If China still was a communist country in the traditional sense, they would not be much of an economic threat. IMHO, the inefficiency of the central planning bureaucracy was the downfall of the USSR in the cold war.
The Chinese have recognized that and allow their companies a lot more freedom. In effect, they still have a one-party dictatorship but with a semi-capitalist economy.
C - the footgun of programming languages
The document in question (did anyone actually read the document that the blog refers to, not just the blog itself...or maybe even that much is charitable) clearly applies to those who have security clearances. And while it is a little bit excessive, it is not entirely inappropriate in that case to mention a word of concern to the person in question's security officer.
There are lots of people who don't meet these requirements (myself included) and don't get a security clearance; or at least not much of one.
How is giving a talk about how to spot possible espionage in any way the same thing as "restricting university student freedom?"
from Halliburton shares, short positions on oil, etc, check
failing to report overseas travel
to that cool hacker conference, and report to whom? check
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
polymath, check
keeping unusual work hours
being an average geek with a large supply of caffeine, check
unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials
aka posting on
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know
being a curious, hacker type, check
unexplained absences
on protests, the result of long nights out, and general student youthfulness, check
are all considered potential espionage indicators
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
I'm a neutral third party, with no anti-Bush or pro-liberal bias. That said, I've been noticing for a while now that the US seems to be getting slightly paranoid. The whole Patriot Act, Homeland Security, TSA and all that aside, even in their international dealings, they seem to be getting very insular and closed off. This latest article sounds eerily like what happens in non-democratic states. In the former USSR, in China, in pretty much any dictatorship, you live under a cloud of fear, suspicion and paranoia. The irony is, in these countries it's getting better, in the US, it seems to be getting worse.
I read about the Indians getting killed just cause they wore turbans, the travails of travellers, and in the UK, a Brazillian kid getting shot in the head cause he was running to catch a train, and other incidents like these.
I wonder where it's all headed. If we logically extrapolate, where do we end up?
It seems like we are going through a transitional phase; similar things happened when society transitioned from a monarchical system to a system of self-government, and before that when feudalism gave way to monarchy. Colonialism gave way to independent states, and the protectionist theory gave way to the GATT and free trade. (which is in trouble again..)
So what comes next?!
I see they've outlived their usefulness.
When adults paying for an expensive education are targeted to lose freedom because of that fact,its time to collect the shields and guns and give the boys in blue brooms or something about their speed.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
I was an engineering student at Mississippi State University. It is common knowledge in the school of engineering there that two of the guys in charge of Iraq's Chemical weapons production got their Chemical Engineering degree from my school. MSU likes to list their graduates who have made accomplishments to recruit students, but they don't tend to put this on the list. Ooops. Maybe there is something to restricting foriegn students. They aren't Americans so why should they be able to enjoy our freedoms?
Liberals like to complain that we are losing our freedoms because of Republicans and all of their medeling in "Homeland Security" laws. Well, something must be working because there haven't been any more planes crashing into buildings, bombs being set off, or any significant foreign terroist acts happening in country since then.
And liberals want to get the troops out of Iraq. Great, lets show terrorists that we are quiters and that their tactics work. If Iraq is so unimportant, why is it that they are fighting like hell to get us out of there. That and it keeps them busy blowing up stuff not in our country.
There have already been great points made about this -
But I will say this - the more we allow authorities to destroy our quality of life over fears of terrorism, the less our country is worthy of such 'protection.' If all of our freedoms are gone, what do we have left that is worth protecting; what remains that makes America so great? Don't get me wrong, I love my country, that is why everytime the government says that they are doing something that goes against our very principles to protect us I am suspicious and disgusted.
It is a fact of life that you could die or be killed at any time. It is just a fact, it doesn't matter how much money you have, who you are, or where you live. 20 year olds can have heart attacks, a meteor impact could hit the planet and start the cycle of life all over again from the beginning. Someone could go nuts and kill you - such is the price of living in freedom.
Besides, this government is way too corrupt and self preserving to truly protect this country and it's people, even if that is what they are truly trying to do on some level.
It's worth it. I would rather live in freedom then take up space in a police state.
According to "The Looming Tower", as you also mention in your post, the mere presence of non-Muslims in the Arab peninsula is considered reason for terrorist attacks.
Well, let's do this "reasoning" again. The sacred city of Catholicism is Rome, in the Italian peninsula. There are plenty of non-Christians in Italy. Is that reason for a Catholic to declare Holy War against the rest of the world? Let's get one thing straight: the fact that a lunatic person calls "reason" a random assortment of facts do not make it rational.
American troops were sent to the Arab peninsula to fight an Arab dictator, Saddam Hussein, who was committing genocide with the help of the Soviet Union. That was a perfectly legal reason for their presence there, they had been invited by the government of Saudi Arabia. The US in 1991 even restrained from toppling Saddam, at the request of the Saudi government who was afraid that Iran would become too powerful without Saddam. If this was a well conducted sequence of events or not is debatable, but it certainly cannot be considered a "reason" for terrorism, because there's no rational justification for terror.
had we never interfered in the middle east, never supported cruel dictators, and never sent troops over there, things might be different.
Or maybe not. A large part of the Middle East current situation was defined exactly forty years ago this month, when Egypt, Jordan, and Syria tried and failed to do what Ahmedinejad still proposes to do today. Until the day when the moderate Arabs and Muslims clearly reject the proposals of the terrorists, it will always be the same. The Israeli culture is vastly superior to that of their enemies because it's an advanced technological culture. A well trained soldier will always be able to defeat a horde of fanatics.
I'm in NYC. City Hall. Worth St. My brother is in the Army, in Iraq right now doing a job that he doesn't even want to be doing, but he does it. It takes a *real* man to do a dirty job that no one else wants to do, including the person doing it. Just because those men and weoman are over there doing what they do doesn't mean they agree with it. Your comments clearly show that you have *no* clue about the average Soldier's, Marine's, Airman's or Sailor's outlook on life. While it may be true that some of them are of the "KILL KILL KILL" ilk, the vast majority just want it to be over so they can come home to their family. So, until you risk your life on a daily basis for people like yourself, who spit on those that step in front of a bullet aimed at you, shut your fucking mouth. Your ignorance is embarrassing us.
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
if I had ANY I would give you to them but heck, I dared to challenge USA role in the world and I got modded as a troll. Oh well, such is life
fuck karma, I like saying the truth better
It started because of oil. Oil is a strategically and economically vital resource for the U.S. It has been since before Israel was set up, and probably has a lot to do with the creation of that country, since it gave the U.S. a friendly presence in an oil rich region.
Oil is what fuels the repressive governments in the Middle East. If they didn't have oil, the U.S. wouldn't care about them and wouldn't prop up governments that abuse their people. Those oppressive regimes create plenty of unhappy people, who turn to religion for answers as to why their life has to suck so much. They follow anyone who can give them hope for a better future.
Fundamentalism works the same over there as it does here, it preys mostly on the poor and disenfranchised, the people who feel they have no power of their own and want to belong to something greater than themselves. They join, feel a sense of belonging and community, and become willing to do whatever they are asked. Just like the cults here, those fundamentalist sects are run by charismatic individuals. These guys have no regard for the lives of their followers. They offer up the U.S. and the rest of the West as the reason for all the woes of these poor people, and why shouldn't these people believe them? They have very limited sources of information and often have very little education.
The ones who are educated see the U.S. as an interfering power that cares more about the oil than about the people who live on the land. Our actions, as a nation, just reinforce that notion.
If you want to end terrorism, end our dependence on oil. Push your representatives to support alternative energy, preferably the non-global warming kind. That is the only way to turn off the money supply to those governments. Do that, and those governments will eventually fall. What rises in their place will depend on how well we can repair the terrible damage Bush has done to our reputation.
Lets all hope we get wiser heads in our government soon.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
Which gets me thinking about our own individual roles in safeguarding our rights. I recently turned down a job because the employement contract required would have signed over all rights to all works I produced during my employment there, regardless of when or where I worked on them, or about what they concerned. I wrote a later to HR and the hiring manager explaining my objections, and why I wasn't accepting the position.
I never got a response, and it's quite likely they just thought I was some sort of crank. My wife, although supportive, also thought I was some sort of crank. And perhaps I am.
But I feel very good about it because it was my chance to push back on the systematic encroachment on personal freedoms. At least two people with decision making authority have seen it come up as an issue. And I don't feel like I've sold myself short.
It was a small stand - I can't say I wouldn't have done it differently if I was desperate for a job. But the small ways matter too - it's letting things slip away a little at a time that is the biggest threat to our freedoms.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
> So, until you risk your life on a daily basis for people like yourself, who spit on those that step in front of a
> bullet aimed at you, shut your fucking mouth.
Self-censorship was big around 2002-2004. But that is now gradually disappearing - we no longer must swear "i support the troops" with every tenth sentence. And "do it for the troops" no longer has the mystical powers of persuasion that it did a few years ago (much like "do it for the children"). Some of this is due to Abu Grahb, some due to the gradual realization by most of this country that they've been had.
Whatever the case - having spent years in the marine corps - I'm not looking for anyone to protect me and my family by fighting in Iraq, thank you very much. I'd much rather them protect me by ceasing to aid in terrorist recruiting and training with the US's dumb-ass invasion.
In other words, you can stick your effort to manipulate people with the troops-line up your ass.
You said
"What I will do is everything I can short of kill to stop the killing you're wallowing in."
Which really means "I'll type furiously, while doing not a fucking thing of substance."
Then you said
"Standing in front of tanks in the Mideast is what's keeping us part of their civil war."
Um, what? WE have the tanks twat. Why would WE stand in front of our own tanks and by your assertion, be extending our part in "their civil war"?
You're a moron.
"I look forward to you getting a clue"
Oh the irony.
Thank you Mr. Anonymous, but that wasn't meant to be a "I support the troops no matter what statement" but a "these people are doing a job that you (not *YOU* personally) do not have the balls to do, yet criticize them for doing it" statement. That is to say, I'm not saying fighting in Iraq is saving your or anyone's family from anything, but is a consequence of joining the military. You could join and find yourself defending against an invading enemy or end up being the invading enemy. One never knows. I don't subscribe to that "My country, right or wrong" nonsense.
"My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober." -- GK Chesterton
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
I am a little confused by comments like yours. On one hand you say your brother is doing a job he doesn't want to do, yet he does it anyways, duty, willing to do the tough things, etc. You also say that just because those men and women are over there doesn't mean they agree with it.
At the end of your comment you say that these people are risking their lives one a daily basis for people like us (non-military types), ready to "step in front of a bullet aimed at you".
I believe that many soldiers are willing to give it all to protect America and Americans, but being a soldier does not automatically mean you are doing so. In the end, whatever a soldier feels, he is at the call of the President. You can obey every order, and sacrifice your life, and yet hurt America. Take these people you mention in your post who are over there, yet don't agree with it. They don't agree with the war, yet continue to fight, because in the end a soldier executes orders, and that duty takes precedence over any personal moral stance they may have.
That is one sacrifice I am happy to say I am unwilling to make.
Please replace all prior references of "communism" with "terrorism", "communist" with "terrorist" .
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
-- George Santayana
"Standing in front of tanks in the Mideast is what's keeping us part of their civil war."
It sure is. Now, if you'll kindly tell me what areas exist in which WE are a part of "their civil war" we can get to the part where you got caught in a moronic argument then gave us this gem.
"The Mideast is a lot bigger than Iraq, stupid shit."
Then of course, because I owned you so easily, you gave us this
"That's your last free clue. Goodbye."
I didn't need a single clue. I knew you were a lying troll who like a coward attempts to end discussion after being shown to be an ignoramus.
And you just proved me right. Again.
it is great and all to be proud of your brother, but I have had 5 friends here that were in the "backdoor draft" of the national guard and reserves, 1 of them has come back ok, 1 of them is dead and the others have all come back totally screwed up. The argument that people make isn't that soldiers are stupid or butchers or what have you-
the argument is really: what are we really trying to accomplish for this country and is it worth killing and dying for and is any of this worth the hurt that it is doing to our country economically and militarily
I think that you will find that most people don't see that there is anything accomplished and that it is stretching ourselves thin in our actual defenses at home from both terrorism and natural disasters. You will also find, that as I believe the war is doing nothing but working to serve the self interests of a few people who are willing to destroy and throw away the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (both americans and iraqis).
And that's fine, that sacrifice for some people and not for others. My gripe isn't with people that aren't willing to make that sacrifice, it's with people who unthinkingly attack the people who do.
Also, the first part of your comment confuses me. Which part of my statements are contradictory?
Anyway, that's my point really. They may join the military never knowing whether they'll go to war, with whom they'll be at war with and what their capacity will be in that conflict, but they do it because they swore they would. There are plenty of people who leave the military because they don't agree with what is being done, and I have a lot of respect for those people, too. As I said before, my problem is with people who berate anyone serving in the military, especially those who don't understand that it is, more or less, just a job. There aren't very many people in the military who *want* to go out and fight.
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
I don't think that we're doing any good over there, and I don't think we should have gone over there at all. If you'll read my previous posts you'll see that my problem is with people who would say that the soldiers share the same agenda as our ignorant President and his cronies. I'm merely pointing out that they are doing a job. Some agree with it and some done, but it's not as easy as handing in a resignation or not showing up for work, like we can do. If you decide to stop going to work one day, you don't end up with a federal arrest warrant issued for you.
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
...projects, phd students, researchers, most of them meet almost all of the criteria mentioned in the article. Let's see.
... well, anything you can think of.
:)) What is unusual ? Working late ? Sometimes coming in late ? Sometimes working during the weekend ? At night ? Then we're all doomed :)
Unexplained affluence
Maybe a valid point, but I fail to see how this is the FBI's concern, tax dept. might be interested though.
failing to report overseas travel
Hmm. So, they need you to report where you travel ? Nice. I remember times in my country when you had to do this, and then they didn't allow you to travel even if you reported that you wanted to go. Moreover, you reporting your traveling wishes made you a suspect of
showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope
Which is something I and my coworkers almost constantly do. As researchers and scientists - however funny that might sound to some people - I'd even expect my colleagues to do so.
keeping unusual work hours
Now come on
unreported contacts with foreign nationals
Now that's something I like. I mean I shouldn't talk with my foreign acquaintances anymore ? I shouldn't get new ones ? Or I could but report them beforehand ? Rrright.
unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials
I might agree with this to some extent, but it is still too vaguely formulated to be trusted. The problem is, you can't trust these people that they won't use this vagueness in the formulation to turn everyone they'd like into a suspect.
attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know
With this I also have one problem: we're not the military here. Need-to-know is not that black and white in the real world as in the service. And not that black and white like they thought it to be during the cold war. Something that at times might be considered a security measure, might be just a full blown social hindrance later on.
unexplained absences
I can't even remember how many university classes I have skipped. 'Cause of work, of laziness, or 'cause I just didn't like them. Yet I managed to get two masters and a phd and I'm working, I'm paying my taxes and I consider myself a patriot. Bzzt, wrong, you missed your classes, spy scum !
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
If there is no crime, then don't you get 100% false positives?s -selling-solar.html
--
Rent solar power with no installation cost: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Well really it started when Turks blew the first colonization of the middle east (in modern times), followed by the French and British blowing the second colonization. The founding of Isreal, and allowing the zionists carte blanch in seizing whatever lands they wanted just dumped oil-wells worth of fuel on the fire.
Now the people in the middle east (understandably) see the US poised to blow the third colonization, and are not prepared to let it happen without a fight.
All of the arguments boil down to a couple of points.
If there continue to be no successful terrorist attacks in the USA that are known by the general public, the arguments and uproar about security measures that limit freedom and anonymity will continue to grow.
If on the other hand we DO have a successful terrorist attack in the USA (something as simple but as effective as Lee Malvo sniping people in D.C. or IAD's on I95) then expect people to gladly give their freedoms in for security.
Hope and pray the latter does not happen. I have every confidence that people will choose security over liberty (in general).
No, the problem is that they're capable (of meeting their own agendas) but so powerful that they're drunk on it. At that point, when it appears that nothing and nobody will stop them - despite whatever bad image they portray - they're going to keep trying for more, and caring about it less.
"Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel, showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered potential espionage indicators."
One or more of the above could be used to describe any student chosen at random. Unexplained affluence? What about the kid who drives a Ferrari, spoiled or spy? Unreported contacts with foreign nationals--does that mean that every time you speak with an exchange student, you need to report it? Keeping unusual work hours includes 99.9% of students, and many staff and faculty. The false positives will outweigh *any* potential benefit.
I thought you had to have a college education before joining the FBI, but this idea makes it seem like no FBI agent has ever set foot on a college campus!
...///...
The activites of foriegn security services in the US is of interest, but when they are directed against private companies that should be including the cost of protecting their trade secrets into their business model, why would we use counter intelligence assests to help them?
s -selling-solar.html
Consider clueful company A and clueless company B. A checks resumes, controls sensitive information and keeps an eye on the competition. B shares information with new hires without checking their background, doesn't know where it is in the market, and doesn't pay attention to when someone is being inapropriately prying. Is it not a market distortion to try to subsidies company B with public money for expenses that company A is already covering itself?
It is good corporate citizenship for a non-multinational to inform security services when it suspects spying is being attempted, but it does not make a lot of sense to spend public money teaching it what it can learn on its own dime. Reports of attempted spying should be addressed with public resources since it can impinge on our cooperation with foreign intelligents services in more weighty matters. But, going beyond that does not make a lot of sense. When the foreign intelligents services manage to help out their own companies with spying, they actually weaken their domestic industry since they reduce incentives to maintain domestic intellectual capabilities. If we are always the source of innovation, then it hardly matters if drips and drops of that innovation are stolen, we will always be in the lead.
--
Get smart about solar power: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
...as they routinely hire recent immigrants for short observation periods. I worked with them for six years in the field organization and, to this day, cannot understand why a non-European immigrant would ever risk working for them. At least eighty percent of foreign-born employees hired were gone in usually six months to one year - with the occasional two year stint if further observation was necessary. While there, every aspect of their day was observed (web sites, political aspects of pages read, etc.). They are guaranteed to be presented with numerous contrived situations in their day and when the observation was done, they would be slandered and portrayed as less than loyal Americans to their former colleagues - rendering them not viable as service providers in the industry. In my onwn experience, Asians and middle-eastern employees are hit especially hard by this tactic. --Doug Hettinger
I can remember back in '89 or '90 the FBI rented billboards along the highway between UAH and Redstone Arsenal/Marshall Spaceflight Center which read something like "Report all suspicious activity to the FBI and Army Intelligence immediately" and gave a telephone number to call in such an event.
UAH had many students from China and India. I remember hearing rumors that a Chinese student had tried to sneak into the rail gun lab at Marshall, but I don't know if that really happened.
I did witness a Chinese student physically break into the Computer Science department late one night; he was promptly arrested due to the actions of the network administrator. The network admin had seen the student acting suspiciously earlier that evening and confronted him and told him to leave, which he did. The admin thought the student would come back, so he warned me to keep an eye open and he himself stayed around. Sure enough, the admin saw the student come back and called the police. I remember walking from the lab to the soda machine and seeing out of the corner of my eye a hand disappearing into the CS office and the door silently being shut. I went to find the network admin and met him following the police up the stairs. The admin later told me that he believed the student was trying to alter his grades to keep from being sent back to China. Truly an unusually exciting evening at the lab.
...keeping unusual work hours...
On the other hand, what exactly counts as unusual work hours in academia?
AccountKiller
This administration does two things really well: outsourcing tasks and legal ass-hattery. They seem to be adept at doing things that are outright morally questionable while staying clear of legal boundaries. If you want to stop them and their ass-hattery, write better laws and restrict how they can route funds.
And don't fear this administration as much as the administration that takes what they've done and improves upon it.
There are numerous places on the earth where great wrongs (like state-sponsored murder and such) are committed. I'm glad that the US occasionally sends troops to try and punish these people. However, I wish the US would act more of a supporter and enabler than a freedom installer. We can not hope to facilitate a false rebellion. Either the people are ready to rise up against the evil forces lauding over them, or they are not. If they are ready our support is merely just to speed up the process. If they are not ready the process will drag out because they are unwilling to support it.
In the end it must be the people that rise up to fight, not the US. Because eventually the US will leave, as we are not often viewed as the legitimate government of the territories we control. And without this sense of legitimacy we cannot maintain control. So in the end if the people do not rise up and fight for the government they wish to have, they will not be able to keep it and the US will not be able to maintain it for them. Because if a person does not wish to again live under a dictatorship, when given the chance they will oppose it's reinstallment tooth and nail.
Our current occupation is fueling the Iraqi people to rise up, but they are rising against us. As such we must respect their wishes and leave (or crush them utterly). Our vision of Iraq is not what their vision of Iraq is. They may be wrong, we may know they to be wrong in this decision, but it should be their decision to make. They will probably be burned by their decision, but there is nothing that I currently see the US can do to change their minds.
Bad things may happen from their decision, but they will learn from it. We can not help those who are now unwilling to receive our help. (And I refer to the people of Iraq, not the leaders of it.)
"His over all lack of any real information about the world is apparent from his other posts and his grammar just helps make a point that you cannot take him seriously."
I used exactly the same criteria to dismiss you. I'm glad we agree you're both not worthy of listening to.
By the way, douchebags like you justify flaming someone for spelling while they also misspell. Had you not been a douchebag, you'd have simply had a good chuckle at your bad luck.
Don't bother replying, as I said, I used your own criteria to come to the correct conclusion to ignore your opinion.
That pretty much describes every foreign student I have met in college. Many have large sums of unexplained money because their countries spoil them for exploring the world and learning abroad. Unexplained absences? Isn't that what college is all about? since when does staying up drinking all night during the middle of the week and skipping class on Tuesday because you are hungover make you a foreign spy? This list is way to vague, and there are too many good explanations for all of those things occurring together in someone who is just your average student from a foreign power.
"Unexplained abscences" - so, every student who skips a class due to oversleeping or another reason is now a terrorist.
"Odd hours" - what college student DIDN'T hold odd hours?
"Interaction with foreign nationals" - Um. I studied Japanese and Computer Science in college. The majority of my classmates, TAs and Professors weren't American. This doesn't even include all the extra-curricular work I did with various student organizations and my volunteer work as an English conversation partner.
All I need now is a LOLCat picture saying "I is terrurist?"
...I think I might be a terrorist. I mean, one of my best friends is a foreign national. I didn't report our friendship to the feds. And I skipped almost all of last quarter without explaining it to anyone. For the good of the country, lock me up and convince me that there are five lights!
--
www.nitemarecafe.com
> 'espionage indicators': Unexplained affluence, failing to report overseas travel,
> showing unusual interest in information outside the job scope, keeping unusual
> work hours, unreported contacts with foreign nationals, unreported contact with
> foreign government, military, or intelligence officials, attempting to gain new
> accesses without the need to know, and unexplained absences are all considered
> potential espionage indicators."
Too bad they didn't apply this to a certain individual in the late '60's and early '70's.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The days of free access to the internet from any university are long gone. Perhaps yours is still like that, but every university I deal with has firewalls in place, uses intrusion detection on their internal networks, and requires students to load virus protection on their laptops before they can access the university network. In the strictest of senses, that is not free.
To the point of the Article, I don't find anything 'chilling' about raising awareness. If that is what you call 'Big Brother' then perhaps you should (re-)read Orwell's "1984". What I do find chilling, however is the need for some to lambast any restrictions on anyone, anywhere for any reason as evil. Remember; Anarchy is the most free society. Do want to live there?
Ben Franklin's statement, "Anyone willing to give up a little freedom, for a little safety deserves neither" lived in a community of Quakers and was one himself. All statements must be evaluated in the context in which they were given, not in yours.
Let's be honest with ourselves. Students from middle eastern countries come to the US because they want to better themselves. It would not be in their best interest to disrupt the thing which they have determined is the path to a better life. Self interest (nearly) always outwieghs ideology. Not that there aren't some, but I think profiling students is an exercise in futility.
On the other hand crying "my freedoms are being taken away" means you haven't entered society yet and don't really understand what freedoms is. Can you drive a car, get married, own a house, or have a telephone ring without someone somewhere taxing it, make you get a license or control your access?
Freedom is the not license to do as you please.
Freedom is the ability to affect change. If you don't like it, then change it but don't waste our colletive time with tears and drivel.
Dennis Dumont
First, it was roman soldiers that crucified Him. Secound, according to the Bible (the book that Falwell based his beliefs on), the Jews did not kill Jesus any more than everybody else did (and still do). (If limited atonement is correct, only the Christians did it) The Bible says that "...he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."* From this it is clear that it was our sin, past, present and future, that killed Him. I should also add that He Himself choose to die in our place. The Jews did not force Him. What made Him do it was His love: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."** (remember that He is God, compare John 1:10 and Genesis 1:1)
* Isaiah 53:5 (quoted from King James Version (1769))
** Romans 5:8 (quoted from King James Version (1769))
Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)
Other than "contact with foreign government, military, or intelligence officials", these are typical activities of anyone learning. Um, isn't that why there in University?
Quick, someone report the FBI agents giving these briefs as suspicious individuals and a clear and present danger to Democracy.
"Stupid fucking bitch is a parody of their own stupid comment about bravery behind a keyboard, without even a userID's worth of courage."
Maybe, but I wasn't, yet your bitch ass ran like you were French.
"OK, coward, come to NYC and I'll explain it to you in person. When will you arrive?"
Give me your address. I'll be happy to show and smack the fuck out of your sorry cowardly ass.
And why is it that losers like you always posture and say "come to where I live". That cunt drinkypoo does the same pathetic shit. How come you bitches never ask for someone else's address so you can go to them?
Oh right, cause you're a fucking twat. You PRETEND you want a confrontation, but you know most people won't travel across country to slap you in the mouth. So you get to pretend you're hard while not risking a fucking thing. What a bitch move.
Too bad for your punk ass I'm in Nyack. Tell me where I can go and when to be there so I can shut you the fuck up.
Back in the day, I attended the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC); Daniel Bernstein is a member of their MSCS department.
In 1995 (IIRC), Bernstein taught a course on cryptography in which a friend of mine had enrolled. Naturally the government (I forget which agency specifically) flipped out and tried to shut him down. I believe this led to Bernstein's lawsuit against the Federal Government. Anyway, students in his class were forbidden from speaking to others about material covered in the course, were forbidden from showing their notebooks to others and also had their notebooks confiscated (okay, turned in) at the end of the semester. I believe the students also underwent background checks prior to their enrollment in the class, but I could be mistaken about that.
I was more than a little surprised about all of the commotion. I mean, this is the United States; aren't we supposed to have academic freedom? I suppose the big concern was that foreign nationals would be taught cryptography, but again, the Constitution guarantees those freedoms.
More information about all of this is available at Berstein's website, linked to above.
OK, I see what you are saying.
Regarding what I may have seen as contradiction, it was just that it seemed on 1 hand you believed that there are soldiers who believe they are being ordered to do things that cause harm, that they disagree with, but then you mentioned the "they are over there willing to take a bullet aimed at you" thing.
When it comes to soldiers, there is no doubt that they are in highly stressful situations and are more restricted, have less freedom to do as they please while on active duty, etc. To me it has always seemed that because of this sacrifice, publicly we make a great show of praising their honor, courage, and that they served well in protecting our country. This may sound silly, but in a way it seems similar to when someone dies, people may comfort the grieving with some statement like "Well, they are in a better place now." or "They are watching you from heaven." I am not saying that it is necessarily false to say a soldier is courageous, or that they protected the country, but that it is something you can not question in polite company. Because individuals and families have so much invested in what they are doing, as part of the military, it is an emotionally touchy area to say that you believe what they are doing in any particular instance is evil, or causing harm, and so on. I feel that the emotional touchiness around this issue stifles the sort of honest debate I'd like to see around these issues, and that it plays into the hands of pro-war people. If a soldier dies in Iraq today, and someone says "We honor what he has done to protect our country", you can't go "Well, Saddam never actually attacked us, he had no WMDs, and he was not tied to 9/11. In fact, since US soldiers have arrived, people have died by the 10s of thousands, and much of the middle east is enraged, so actually we are worse off in some ways". You'd be the asshole. Obviously, you would be if you said it right at the funeral, but even after, in any old debate, if there is ever a war widow, or family members of a fallen soldier, you can to an extent still be the asshole.
The way we try to edge around this it seems, is to blame the President or supporters in the congress, not troops executing actions we disagree with. I agree that the President is the most responsible, but not solely. Still, personally I am not happy with the idea of people surrendering their moral decision-making and culpability over to a politician. So, from that perspective, I can not help but hold soldiers responsible for their role in enabling the President to do what he has done.
So, rather than a contradiction, I guess it is more that I didn't feel that your statement that the soldiers were sacrificing to protect us was justified (in the case of the current conflict). I felt it was more of a rhetorical tactic that is commonly pulled out in emotion-laden debate/arguing whenever soldiers are involved. Not that that is so awful, as the top of this whole thread has plenty of internet style flame-age going on, and you are not the flamer, and I'm waltzing in as if it were calmer than it is.