Olympic Committee Chooses XP Over Vista

Vinit writes "The popularity of Windows XP is still making things difficult for Vista. Now Vista has again suffered a major setback, with Lenovo (Olympic 2008' official sponsor) installing XP on it's machines to run the Olympic Games' vital PC-related tasks. Vista will only be used in internet lounges set up for athletes to use during the games."

Comments

Hmm

[okinawa_hdr]

At what point does an OS mature enough that it becomes "enough for general use"? Maybe XP is that mark.

Re:Hmm

[an.echte.trilingue]

I don't see this as a particular setback. It's just a good business decision: stable and tested over flashy and new. If they were going to go with Linux, they would probably choose etch over lenny.

Don't worry, Vista will supplant XP over time.

Re:Hmm

[GiMP]

Linux, they would probably choose etch over lenny.

Except even Etch isn't that old. Infact, as a "stable release" it is *very new*. I only upgraded a box from Woody (to etch) only... yesterday.

Re:Hmm

[MrMr]

When it's ready for the desktop.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather have a woody.

Re:Hmm

[couchslug]

Either way, MSFT gets paid. They have plenty of time to sort out Vista.

Re:Hmm

[Phisbut]

I don't see this as a particular setback. It's just a good business decision: stable and tested over flashy and new. If they were going to go with Linux, they would probably choose etch over lenny.

Don't worry, Vista will supplant XP over time.

Except using WinXP is more like using Woody (if you consider XP to be a 2001 OS), or at most Sarge (if you consider XP SP2 to be a 2005 OS).

Re:Hmm

[mwvdlee]

Vista certainly improves on a few things. Most notably (for me), is the way the GUI is handled internally. OTOH, with these nice improvements also comes a lot of other crap that I (and many others) explicitely DON'T want. As it stands, XP can be improved upon (i.e. anything that OSX, Linux, etc. currently does better than XP), but Vista isn't the answer to that. Vista would have a better chance at adoption if Microsoft's marketing department didn't have a say over what goes in technically.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Either way, MSFT gets paid.
Not necessarily, this is China we're talking about!

*rimshot*

Re:Hmm

[couchslug]

"Not necessarily, this is China we're talking about!"

Eventually China will support IP law when it serves their interest. MSFT gets free product dumping from warez installs, but users who only know Windows (and have years of experience on it) will not want to invest time learning something else. This will take many years, but there is plenty of time.

Re:Hmm

[jo42]

> Don't worry, Vista will supplant XP over time.

Unfortunately, this is too true.

I use Vista every day. And every day I want to collectively kick Microsoft in the gonads for excreting such a massive pile of poop.

Re:Hmm

[ultranova]

Vista would have a better chance at adoption if Disney's marketing department didn't have a say over what goes in technically.

There, fixed that for you.

It is a natural decision.

[rolfc]

My employer took the decision to migrate from win2k to XP, and we will roll it out this fall. Vista was proposed but we do not consider it ready for use.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[Billosaur]

I just started a new job and they gave me an HP laptop, which, when opened, had a nice shiny Vista logo on it. Horrified, I turned it on, only to see the reassuring opening stating I was running XP Professional. I breathed a very heavy sigh of relief. Vista is not making it into general use because companies have spent years getting all their systems converted to XP and now want to get some mileage out of it before they switch. Besides, no one wants to risk their IT department on it until they've seen what it does -- they'd rather have someone else take the risk and stand back and watch.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[cbreaker]

Vista is plenty ready for use. It's your employer that apparently isn't ready for it.

Just because you don't know what's different in Vista, what changes you need to make, etc, doesn't mean it's the operating systems' fault.

If you spent 4 hours with it, you'd say "This is actually better for our corporate systems. Let's move to Vista instead."

I don't love Microsoft of Windows any more then the next guy, but c'mon, Vista isn't as major of a change as people make it out to be. Maybe they changed all this crap under the hood? Who cares. Most of that doesn't affect anything. It's not like switching from Windows 2000 to Linux or something.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[228e2]

I want to mod you twice, one for what you said, and once more for your sig.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[timeOday]

There's a computer store on my way to work with a sign out front that says, "Hate Vista? We have: XP Desktops! XP Laptops! Hurry, supplies limited!" I'm not making this up.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[somersault]

"Vista is not making it into general use because companies have spent years getting all their systems converted to XP and now want to get some mileage out of it before they switch."

I thought that it wasn't making it to general use because it sucks balls, and is a bit of a pointless upgrade. Of course I don't see much difference between 2000 and XP, but at least XP wasn't hyped up quite so much, and it doesn't take 30 minutes to delete a file..

Re:It is a natural decision.

[Seakip18]

Same here. We've been trickling XP's in since SP1b was put out. We're finally taking the plunge this fall by putting XP's out on every desk. I'm not touching Vista till I get the means to support it.

On the plus side, Yea for script standardization.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[Pensacola Tiger]

Vista is plenty ready for use. It's your employer that apparently isn't ready for it.

I'll not question if Vista is ready for 'prime-time', but I will note that there are dozens, if not hundreds of applications that run on XP but will not run on Vista. That's a real showstopper for any business that depends on these applications.

If all you want to do is email and surf the internet, then Vista is great. For any mission critical use, it isn't. At least that's what corporate America is saying.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[dintech]

You're right on a superficial level. Start button, yep, Explorer, yep, Microsoft Word, great...

I work for top tier investment bank and we were really exceptionally careful when switching from NT to XP globally. There were literally thousands of in-house applications to be tested. Also there were really a lot of issues. Obvious things like legacy drivers but also more subtle things like the behavior of a JDK for instance.

The number of man hours involved in the change over was really staggering and took more than a year of effort. Each team involved in looking after their particular app had to do specific regression testing relating to the OS change over. All of this time costs money and has an inherent amount of risk attached.

This doesn't even touch on legacy / vendor applications that "aren't supported" on the new OS. That's a whole different set of headaches...

Re:It is a natural decision.

[rolfc]

I have been using Vista for almost a year, and it is not ready for us.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[dmpyron]

I can name dozens of high tech companies that haven't switched to Vista internally and probably won't for a while. And lots of them are computer manufacturers. Yesterday I saw five brand new laptops from my current client with XP Pro on them. But if I try to buy one, it comes with Vista Basic.

I know Intel has publicly stated that they aren't moving.

I'm not moving until I have to. Which, sadly, may be soon. But my current 5 year old laptop will be dual boot, since I'm sure some of my software won't work on Vista. Has anyone run the Windows version of netstumbler on Vista?

Re:It is a natural decision.

[ImaLamer]

I think what you meant to say is that you were not ready for its use. You meant to say is that you don't have 2+ gigs of RAM in each PC, and that they are all not fitted with SATA-III drives, and that they have DirectX 10.0 video cards that are to become obsolete with Vista SP1.

I think that is what you meant.

I'm sure the software is ready, there just isn't a PC that can handle it. Bloat or features, I don't care; there is no reason this OS shouldn't be able to run smoothly on a computer built for 3D games like Doom3 (on extreme settings). I hate having this hatred towards Vista, and maybe someday I'll convert, but I just love XP and 2000 for their solid performance.

You may think that last comment was a joke, but I'll say it again: If you don't have 2000/XP running smoothly, then you aren't doing something right.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[rssrss]

I am staying with W2K, and Office 97.

It just works!

Re:It is a natural decision.

[nine-times]

Out of curiosity, why has your employer decided to migrate from Win2k to WinXP?

Re:It is a natural decision.

[rolfc]

It is mainly because of demand for more simple access to wireless networks.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[rolfc]

In part, it is as you say, but the truth is also that Vista is not mainstream yet, for example our helpdesk software does not run on Vista, so it is better to wait a few years.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[ultranova]

If all you want to do is email and surf the internet, then Vista is great.

No it isn't. If that's all you want to do, get Linux - you'll be able to keep 100+ browser windows open at once accross as many virtual desktops you want, and aren't nearly as open to worms. No need to pay for any antivirus/firewall software either.

Re:It is a natural decision.

[cbreaker]

In what way?

Re:It is a natural decision.

[cbreaker]

Most applications do run just fine on Vista. Obviously, if you run ones that do not, you'd need to take special considerations. For you, if you've just been involved in a major migration to Windows XP, it's understandable that you wouldn't want to get into another one. Wait a couple years.

But for someone that's going to initiate a project now, for migrating from old Windows 2000 and older workstations, then Vista deserves a little more then a couple installs on a workstation for the decision to be made.

I see lots of people saying "Vista isn't ready" but I don't see a lot of reasons why, except for the fact that it's a popular notion, or that there's some idea that most software won't run on it. In a corporate environment, Vista offers a lot more features and controls that System Admins like, and ultimately make the experience better for the user. Forget Aero or the Eyecandy; there's new features and options that make sense in there.

Again, I'm no Microsoft fan, but I hate ignorance in IT.

It's Probably Just

[JamesRose]

THe specialist software that it runs not yet being rewritten for vista- I'm sure it'd work on vista, but in an international event like this you really don't want to get things misbehaving or acting just slightly differently. Of course in 4 years time vista will be standard and they'll be no question of using anything else- or possibly using the next version of Windows.

Re:It's Probably Just

[Anonymous Coward]

But the /. spin is that Vista is horrible and that even the Olympics isn't using it. The logical reasoning of the software they are using just not having a Vista version makes too much d@mn sense and doesn't bash MS.

And let's put it this way to the person who posted this story, you do realize that the largest sporting committee in the world choses Windows over Linux.

Doesn't that just make you steam, eh?

Re:It's Probably Just

[dattaway]

you do realize that the largest sporting committee in the world choses Windows over Linux.

The Olympics is all about product placement and sponsorship. It is a place where the elite can toot their money horn of supremacy.

Linux will NEVER be in the Olympics, unless it can pass the physical and drug tests. Even then, I'm sure the sponsors will find a way to disqualify it. Nothing personal, just business.

Re:It's Probably Just

[porkThreeWays]

A natural question to ask is "why would I want to use Vista". What advantages does Vista have over XP that would outweigh its pitfalls? For most it's a resounding "nothing". All their software has been field tested on XP. All their hardware has been field tested on XP. People in the real world don't just change for the sake of saying they are running the latest stuff. High school kids may get a boner over Vista's features, but for those of us in the real world Vista just doesn't offer any reason to change right now.

I pose the question to Slashdot... What reason would a large organization have at this point to run Vista?

Re:It's Probably Just

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

THe specialist software that it runs not yet being rewritten for vista- I'm sure it'd work on vista, but in an international event like this you really don't want to get things misbehaving or acting just slightly differently.

In other words, they're not sure they could get things working reliably on Vista, even with plenty of time between now and then to test it.

That cautious approach may be very wise, but it's also very telling. Rejecting an "upgraded" operating system because it doesn't run the software that runs fine on your existing operating system is perfectly legitimate, and is entirely Microsoft's problem.

Re:It's Probably Just

[Jugalator]

The logical reasoning of the software they are using just not having a Vista version makes too much d@mn sense and doesn't bash MS.

It's quite funny if some are actually intending to "bash" Microsoft by a news item saying Microsoft will sell a lot of Windows XP licenses. :-p Sure, MS would have preferred to sell Vista, but I don't think they're crying over at Redmond.

Re:It's Probably Just

[ELProphet]

As GP said

"THe specialist software that it runs not yet being rewritten for vista"

Which, clearly, means it should be re-written for Linux before being updated to work with Vista. The largest hinderance to Linux adoption in the corporate world isn't Office vs. OpenOffice, or even really Windows vs Linux, it's all the smaller thrird-party or in-house apps written in VB/C#.NET by IT Techs who don't know the difference between an integer and a pointer.

Re:It's Probably Just

[F4_W_weasel]

do you

Re:It's Probably Just

[DerekLyons]

you do realize that the largest sporting committee in the world choses Windows over Linux.

The Olympics is all about product placement and sponsorship. It is a place where the elite can toot their money horn of supremacy.

If that were true, we wouldn't be seeing the story "Olympics chooses XP over Vista" would we? We'd be seeing a Microsoft press release trumpeting the selection of Vista as the "official Operating System of the Olympic Games".
 
But we aren't, are we?
 
So, just maybe, there are other reasons why Linux wasn't chosen - not that Linux zealots can examine the situation rationally.

Re:It's Probably Just

[toddestan]

We'd be seeing a Microsoft press release trumpeting the selection of Vista as the "official Operating System of the Olympic Games".

You'd only see that if Microsoft had handed over piles of cash to the Olympic Committee, even if they ended up chosing Vista. My guess is that Microsoft didn't hand over piles of cash, so that's why they picked whatever OS they felt would do the best job.

Re:It's Probably Just

[DerekLyons]

I prefer solutions that are a) generally in accord with known facts and reasonable assumptions (like the problems Vista has and potentially legacy apps) and, b) don't require tinfoil hat handwavings. (Especially since Microsoft hasn't shown a disinclination for 'handing over piles of cash' in the end - and right now they need all the positive publicity they can get.)

Re:It's Probably Just

[julesh]

I pose the question to Slashdot... What reason would a large organization have at this point to run Vista?

Integrated support for disk-image based installation, without the need for third party products.
Improved support for policies that allow more detailed management of what users can and can't do with their PCs.
Full drive encryption.
SoftGrid as part of the Desktop Optimization Pack, allows you to run applications in complete isolation from each other.

All of these are useful technologies for a large organization which are new to Vista (although, admittedly, some of them were previously available from third party suppliers for XP, having them integrated and MS-approved helps such an organization a lot).

Indeed

[jayminer]

Smart choice indeed. I for myself would have chosen Windows XP over Vista, because even though my personal choice is Linux, I will not force anyone on using it, whatsoever. My new laptop (issued by the new company I work) comes with Vista, and making my life a hell. I am going to install Linux on it if it won't hurt any company policy, as all I do is to develop Java applicatons and run some office work.

Re:Indeed

[ozmanjusri]

Oh brother, another "Vista is horrible" liar.

Don't cry, my Microsoft loving friend.

Vista will have a chance to shine in an event more suited to its capabilities.

Re:Indeed

[morgan_greywolf]

So what is making Vista "hell" for you? Can you make up something fast. He doesn't have to make up something. Have you ever used a corporate laptop? Oftentimes, companies who need to buy a lot of laptops buy them with as little system memory as possible. It's not at all unusual to come across a brand-new company laptop with only 512 MB or even 256 MB installed in it these days.

Vista has very high memory requirements, even if you aren't using Aero. On a machine with low memory, Vista will crawl, much worse than XP or 2000.

In addition the whole 'Allow' or 'Cancel' thing is a real pain.

Re:Indeed

[jayminer]

Sluggish on a 2.0 Ghz Duo 2, bloody IIS 7.0 made me install VS2003 and ASP.NET v1.1 took one day (and this is quick, check the net), bloody IE 7.0 not running my banking application (should blame the bank nevertheless), random glitches and 2-3 seconds hangs.. By the way, I never tell lies. I didn't said I'm gonna install Linux when I got back home, as this is not MY machine. 2 of my 3 PCs at home already run Slackware. This is the computer given to me by my new company I work and I don't know if I will violate any policy installing Linux on it or not.

Re:Indeed

[jayminer]

How is having an employee or client use Linux "force"?

I think you've got me wrong or missed the end of my comment.

Suppose you've got a corporate laptop with Vista preinstalled (like my case) given to you by your employer.
This is "having".

And suppose they don't let you install Linux on it, even dual booting for use at home or off-site.
This is "forcing".

Re:Indeed

[apt142]

So, it's competing?

We all know it's crippled enough. Should pass that qualification with flying colors.

Not ready for prime time.

[TripMaster Monkey]

The popularity of Windows XP is still making things difficult for Vista.

I wouldn't blame the popularity of XP as much as I would blame the god-awfulness of Vista. At our organization, there are so many problems we've identified with Vista on our enterprise that we've declared a moratorium on its rollout...probably until SP1 is released (which, considering how late Vista was to begin with, could take a while).

In the meantime, I now get to blow Vista off all the new systems we purchase and replace it with XP. As if I didn't have enough work to keep me busy...

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you are totally making that whole story up, but indulge us anyway on these "problems" that you've found.

The funny thing is that, assuming that your story is even remotely true, that you've paid MS twice. Once for Vista and again for XP, all the while you're typing this as if you've really stuck to MS by not using Vista.

You haven't the first clue what you're talking about. You can use a license of Vista and install XP without any additional cost, since XP is an older version. You can do the same thing with Office.

Upgrading a large organization costs a bunch of money. Good companies cost benefit these types of things. We did ours and the benefits just weren't there to pay for the massive hardware upgrades we would have to do.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can anyone confirm or deny this? I used to deal with the departmental software licensing, and I know that some licenses specifically allow this. However, there were a few that explicitly disallowed this in their terms. That is, once you upgraded a license, the old one was null and void and you were no longer allowed to legally install the older versions (you were supposed to have destroyed the physical media). What is the official MS stance on this issue? I'm asking in a legalistic "this is strictly what the license says" sense, not what you guys think you can get away with.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[TripMaster Monkey]

I know you are totally making that whole story up,

And how exactly do you "know" this? I'm interested, since you obviously don't "know" what you think you know.

but indulge us anyway on these "problems" that you've found.

Since you asked so nicely, I'll "indulge" you with two examples.

One: Our Cisco VPN currently has a problem with Kerberos preauthentication. Kerberos preauthentication must be shut off in the domain accounts' properties to allow the domain accounts to authenticate successfully to the Cisco VPN. But Vista requires Kerberos preauthentication to successfully log on to the domain.

Two: We have a home-brewed customer database here that Vista does not play well with. We're trying to use this difficulty to justify spending the money for a real customer database solution, but anyone who's been to those sorts of meetings know how fun that is.

So...enough "indulgement" for you?

The funny thing is that, assuming that your story is even remotely true, that you've paid MS twice. Once for Vista and again for XP, all the while you're typing this as if you've really stuck to MS by not using Vista.

Again, despite your disrespectful tone, I'll respond.

I'm fully aware that we're currently paying for Vista licenses we're not using, and I've made the IT director aware of this as well. If he's not worried about it, neither am I. My responsibility is the smooth running of my location...I'm not involved in the financial aspects.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[MyLongNickName]

I know this is true -- for the longest time I had a license for XP, but ran 2000. All legal... or should I say "all license agreement compliant".

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[east coast]

As if I didn't have enough work to keep me busy...

Apparently not. You still have time to sit around and post on Slashdot... Not that I have any room to talk, I'm just saying...

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[cerberusss]

I now get to blow Vista off all the new systems we purchase and replace it with XP

Eh? Couldn't you order with XP installed?

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[TripMaster Monkey]

Eh? Couldn't you order with XP installed?

Unfortunately no. While we can still order the Dell desktops we use with XP, that's no longer an option with the Lenovo laptops.

And no, I can't switch to a different brand of laptop. That decision is made two levels above me.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[pedestrian crossing]

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

Can you explain how this says exactly the opposite of what you're saying it says?

My reading of this is that once you upgrade, you are not allowed to run both the original version and the upgraded version.

This has nothing to do with being licensed for Vista, but running XP instead. What it forbids is upgrading to Vista, and then using the original XP license on another machine.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Midnight Thunder]

Unfortunately no. While we can still order the Dell desktops we use with XP, that's no longer an option with the Lenovo laptops.

That's ironic given the subject of this topic. They can do it for their own systems, but not for systems that customers order?

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[timbck2]

I work for the State of New Mexico. Our Microsoft "Account Technology Specialist" had this to say about buying Vista licenses but using XP:

OEM OS License: Only Vista Business and Vista Ultimate have downgrade rights to Windows XP. Rights to OEM versions of systems software are granted in the OEM License Terms. The OEM License Terms for most OEM versions of systems software do not grant downgrade rights. The exception is the OEM License Terms for the Windows® XP Professional operating system and the Windows Vista(TM) Business and Windows Vista Ultimate operating systems, which grant downgrade rights. See the full text of the OEM License Terms for the specific downgrade rights. End users can use the following media for their downgrade: Volume Licensing media (provided the end user has a Volume Licensing agreement).

Does he know what he's talking about? I have no idea. But I'd say he's in a better position to have the correct information than most of us, who are merely guessing.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Aqualung812]

One: Our Cisco VPN currently has a problem with Kerberos preauthentication. Kerberos preauthentication must be shut off in the domain accounts' properties to allow the domain accounts to authenticate successfully to the Cisco VPN. But Vista requires Kerberos preauthentication to successfully log on to the domain.

So, because Cisco doesn't correctly support something in Active Directory, that is Vista's fault?

Not that there are not enough issues with Vista. The simple fact that I can not admin my Exchange 2003 or 2007 server from my Vista laptop is completely bogus. Add to that all the issues with developing on Vista.

So, Microsoft makes it hard for Network Admins and Developers to use Vista with their systems, and then they expect those same people to support a move from XP to Vista? That is beyond hopeless.

P.S.

What kind of Cisco VPN are you running? I have a PIX and ASA that I'm doing VPN with just fine without turning that off, even from my Vista laptop. Just curious.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[nine-times]

I wouldn't blame the popularity of XP as much as I would blame the god-awfulness of Vista

I wouldn't either. It's just common sense that if Vista were generally better, and with no drawbacks, people wouldn't hesitate to use it. It's not as though Windows XP is a perfect OS, either. I have a lot of problems with Windows XP. Vista just doesn't really fix any of them for me.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Cussin_IT]

Our IT policy is "no MS probucts on the network without SP1" and "Don't scare the clients with interfaces wich don't look like win95". So I know that feeling. Whenever I have ordered laptops or PCs I have always told acusisions do not buy vista. Just recently, they've started replying "we can't", and I get the job of stripping the dam thing and installing XP.

So far I've had to do it on a HP laptop, an Acer laptop, a HP desktop and a No-Name beige box(with no OS at all). The reason I mention this is that they all took a day each to do, except the Acer which took more than a week, was a nightmare to get drivers for (why does win98 just work on it with standard drivers but XP dosen't even recognise the HDD?) and it still dosen't work properly.

As a side note, I toyed with the laptops when they came in, becuse I haden't had a chance to try Vista yet. I do not like it. The Acer locked up on me twice (straight out of the Box! how does MS get away with this?), so I aree with the Olympic comitie, if you have to use Windows (#insert diety here# knows why) then XP or 2000 is the way to go.

Re:Not ready for prime time.

[Kalriath]

As a side note, I toyed with the laptops when they came in, becuse I haden't had a chance to try Vista yet. I do not like it. The Acer locked up on me twice (straight out of the Box! how does MS get away with this?), so I aree with the Olympic comitie, if you have to use Windows (#insert diety here# knows why) then XP or 2000 is the way to go. Don't blame Microsoft for that... Acer are all about dodgy engineering.

It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[NeverVotedBush]

That is making things difficult for Vista. Vista is making things difficult for Vista.

Just about every day there are stories of how it can't do something important, or has some kind of security flaw, or won't work with this or that hardware, or needs even more system resources to even run.

What is making XP "popular" is that it doesn't have the problems Vista does. It is no advantage to XP. It's that Vista has so many faults. This isn't unlike the Microsoft even versions of DOS that sucked too.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[jellomizer]

It reminds me of the following...
MS DOS 4.0
Windows ME
Windows Vista

I don't know much about why DOS 4 sucked... But Windows ME was made because it was taking to long for XP To come out so they cross hybrid Windows 2000 with the Windows 98 dosish kernel. Causing huge problems.

Simularly with Vista They had a far more complex OS designed but feature after feature was cut and delayed for years. It ended up just being a cross hybrid of Windows XP and Windows 2003 with a new User Interface.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[mpol]

I haven't used Vista, but I hear about the same complaints about Vista now as at the time when XP was released. In the end just about everyone will use the new system. How many people are still using Windows 2000 or Windows 98? Almost everybody has moved on to XP now. As time goes by, after the first or second service pack, with newer updated apps and hardware/drivers there's probably no reason not to.
I guess the complaining is just a way of learning to cope with the change.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[iniquitous]

I wonder how many people who decry Vista have actually used it. I've been running a 64-bit Vista install for a few months now--as a development machine, no less, with various utilities necessary to perform my job--and have only been pleased with the experience. In fact, I greatly prefer running Vista over XP. I've even had limited to no problems running a few games on the O.S., including Quake 4 and C&C 3.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[RobDude]

I thought Vista was the reason for my constant crashing in Battlefield Vietnam. So, I installed XP again. Crashed even more in XP. Turns out it has to do with my particular type of processor. Aside from that, Vista has been great for me. Although, I had to try quite a few different CD/DVD/etc burning software to find one that would do what I wanted.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[Jugalator]

What is making XP "popular" is that it doesn't have the problems Vista does. It is no advantage to XP.

Depends on how you look at it. Firefox is regarded as having advantages over IE in part because it lacks some of IE's security problems. XP do have real advantages over Vista in my eyes. Less problems is not to be scoffed at and called "lack of problems" -- it is a real advantage when you consider an OS.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[pedestrian crossing]

I don't know much about why DOS 4 sucked

I remember two reasons. One, it broke DBaseIII+ applications, which were widespread at the time. Two, it took up more of the precious 640KB conventional memory than DOS 3.11 used, so a lot of TSR stuff broke.

MS didn't have the long history of fucking over its customers then that it does now, so the PHB-types tended to take it out on the techs when their favorite productivity app suddenly stopped working.

That was the first in the long series of support nightmares that MS inflicted on us poor techs.

Re:It Isn't The Popularity of XP

[jawtheshark]

I don't know much about why DOS 4 sucked...

I do.... One of the main reasons was that it ate memory for breakfast in a time that memory was expensive and that we lived with the 640KByte barrier. Many programs by then required a good 500KByte to 520KByte free. With MS DOS 4.x that was pretty much impossible, with MS DOS 3.3 and MS DOS 5.0 and later MS DOS 6.22 it was possible.

MS fighting this

[high_rolla]

And I wonder how hard MS will be trying to persuade them to reconsider. Wouldn't surprise me if in a few weeks time there is another article about how MS gave them a rather nice deal and they decided to reconsider their OS of choice.

Re:MS fighting this

[TheRaven64]

Why would MS care? They're using Vista on all of the public-facing machines, so it's not like they don't get the publicity.

Re:MS fighting this

[Jugalator]

I doubt they'll care much. They'll sell a lot of XP licenses for the new systems in the event, so there's no big revenue problem. They'll solve the problem with getting people to upgrade later when Vista has matured and XP has expired in their product lifecycle.

Article Is Blog Spam; Direct Link

[Anonymous Coward]

The direct link is http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/080807-vista -wireless-kept-off-core.html (and the blog's source isn't much longer).

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

I like your signature:

You moved your mouse. Please restart Windows for changes to take effect.

I might make mine:

You moved your mouse. Please recompile your Linux kernel and modules for changes to take effect.

Now the big question is...

[SlashDread]

Will the athlete's Vista workstation have UAC http://blog.stealthpuppy.com/group-policy/group-po licy-scripts-can-fail-due-to-uac enabled or http://trevinchow.com/blog/2007/01/27/vista-error- the-specified-print-monitor-is-unknown/ not?

ha!

[thatskinnyguy]

Vista = pwnd! And for good reason too. I'm sure the next time the Olympic Games roll around, Vista will have had all the bugs worked-out of it. So pwnd for the time being...

It's funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, funny how all those anti-Vista stories on Slashdot now portray Windows XP as a popular OS that's loved by everyone. Before Vista, it was portrayed as pretty much the most hated system on the planet.

Re:It's funny

[Skater]

No, people hate XP, too. They just hate it less than they hate Vista, and given only those two options, they would rather use XP.

Shades of gray, not black and white.

Also, different people posting means different opinions, etc. There are over a million accounts here now.

Re:It's funny

[ubrgeek]

It's the lesser of all devils.

Re:It's funny

[tacet]

it would be a little mess, training all those people to use linux.
and think what if some of them fail using it in the event.

and if choice is XP or Vista... i prefer XP. /excuse my english

Re:It's funny

[Jugalator]

People hate Ubuntu too. People hate AmigaOS. People hate FreeBSD. What's your point? People hate a lot, depending on what people you talk of. People love Windows XP too -- look at Neowin for among the most crowded forum communities on the web, and people do love Ubuntu, and some people even love AmigaOS and FreeBSD.

Re:It's funny

[Skater]

Who said anything about Ubuntu or AmigaOS? The orignal post was commenting about how people seem to like XP more than they like Vista.

Re:Xp is ubiquitous..

[rolfc]

I have been using it for almost a year, and in my opinion it's not ready yet.

Doesn't make a difference

[mrjb]

The truth is that in the end it is still a choice between MS and MS.

The same happens with detergents- that's why Unilever and Proctor&Gamble produce a multitude of detergents. If a sufficiently large group of people have a choice between 3 detergents of the same price & quality, and 2 are Unilever, it is likely that around 2/3 of the sold detergent will be Unilever.

In this case, anything non-MS was out of the picture, so why would they complain?

Re:Doesn't make a difference

[iibagod]

Detergents don't become obsolete. If your analogy held, there would be no pressure to come out with a new OS, since a large portion of the market is buying a Microsoft product. The reason this is relevant is that the percieved failings of the newer product reflect badly on the continued success of the company that produces it. Let's illustrate.

Say I own a 1965 Mustang. Love it, the handlings great, the lines are sleek, I can pick up any woman in this car. Then Ford releases a newer model. Boxy, underpowered, horrible color schemes, all around a BAD design. Does Ford care if nobody buys the newer model? Even if they were still selling the 1965 model (to keep my analogy valid), this still would result in a lack of faith in Ford. You would hear customers saying, "They used to make such good cars....what happened?"

So I submit that XP having a stronger customer perception is NOT something Microsoft wants. Not if they want to stay relevant.

So, point made, grammar checked....I even got a car analogy in there. I'm proud of myself.

Re:Doesn't make a difference

[LingNoi]

Maybe I missed something further up but I don't think non-MS supporters are complaining. All the complaining about vista is coming from people who are using Microsoft products.

Just because people complain don't automatically assume they'd prefer something non-MS, which is supporters of Vista biggest mistake. This "you're either with us or against us" talk is getting old.

Is anybody surprised?

[WIAKywbfatw]

Lenevo is choosing to go with an older, well-established OS that's tried and tested for the "mission critical" stuff rather than a newer, less tested one. So what?

Is anybody surprised at that? Would you do things differently?

When you have to look after everything from press accreditation to publishing results, from scheduling to putting up the correct names of competitors, and doing it all in a multitude of languages and to the tightest of schedules, what would Windows Vista bring to the party that Windows XP wouldn't?

To use a car analogy, Windows XP has been around the block, been put through its paces, had its engine tuned and is humming nicely, whilst Windows Vista has barely had more than its tyres kicked in the dealer's forecourt. If you were taking a 5,000 mile road trip across a continent, which would you go with?

Why anybody would be surprised at this decision, or even see it as a failing of Windows Vista, is beyond me. If you're going to go with a Microsoft OS, then common sense makes Windows XP the obvious choice.

Re:Is anybody surprised?

[subStance]

This is an interesting line of thinking (that I happen to agree with) ....

it basically implies that in terms of stability, XP will be superior to Vista for the next 2-3 years presumably, so using Vista will be the domain of people who either

a) don't have mission-critical requirements (e.g. home users) or
b) need some feature that Vista has that XP doesn't.

As someone who has recently bought a fully stacked Sony Vaio SZ93 notebook (which only supports Vista) and had to "roll it back" to Linux/XP due to the endless crashing, lockups and data corruption/loss, I can tell you that group (b) above is a *very* small group indeed. With the exception of some eye candy, Vista Business has zero in the way of features that would mandate an update from XP. The only reason I notice that I'm not using Vista is the lack of crashing.

The really amazing part: I switched to Ubuntu Feisty in the end, and the end result was *way* cooler desktop effects, which is the most strongly marketed reason to switch to Vista.

Back to the point though ... if everyone thinks like you do (which I think they should) MS will have resort to obsoleting XP early or more of this forcing Vista-only support from OEMs, or Vista will have a slow uptake indeed. Personally, I'm expecting:

i) MS will force Vista-only support, and
ii) most people won't think like this: they'll buy it anyway

Re:Is anybody surprised?

[stewbacca]

Lenevo is choosing to go with an older, well-established OS that's tried and tested for the "mission critical" stuff rather than a newer, less tested one. So what? Is anybody surprised at that? Would you do things differently?

Why yes I would. I would start with looking at Linux/Mac OS X/Sun Microsystems and would never consider Microsoft at all for anything mission critical. Internet kiosks would be fine...throw some $300 eMachines in there with XP/Vista, does it really matter? Shit is shit. Then again, Lenovo is kinda partial towards Microsoft OSes though, so it is their call since they forked out the big bucks for the chance to muck everything up.

Re:Is anybody surprised?

[nine-times]

what would Windows Vista bring to the party that Windows XP wouldn't?

And what does Vista bring to the party, in general, that Windows XP doesn't? Pro-Microsoft people tend to suggest that the benefits of Vista include increased stability, performance, and security-- Many of the "under the hood" changes to Vista were in favor of those aims. Wouldn't the Olympics want those things?

It seems to me that the problem with Vista, in general, is that it doesn't bring anything new to the party that most people will care about.

To use a car analogy, Windows XP has been around the block, been put through its paces, had its engine tuned and is humming nicely, whilst Windows Vista has barely had more than its tyres kicked in the dealer's forecourt. If you were taking a 5,000 mile road trip across a continent, which would you go with?

So you're acknowledging that part of the problem with Vista is that, after a year of being on the market, Vista still isn't reliable and trustworthy?

Re:Is anybody surprised?

[PMBjornerud]

To use a car analogy, Windows XP has been around the block, been put through its paces, had its engine tuned and is humming nicely, whilst Windows Vista has barely had more than its tyres kicked in the dealer's forecourt. If you were taking a 5,000 mile road trip across a continent, which would you go with? I wanted to go the the old and tried one, but I can't find anywhere they sell it.

That is why people are flaming MS for anything relatwed to Vista. Because Microsoft made the descicion for the consumers, they they should want Vista now, and make it difficult to get XP. Maybe you can get it if you're a company, but if you're a 50-something just wanting to upgrade your computer without getting used to a new OS, it's a lot harder.

Re:Is anybody surprised?

[Liquidrage]

I am shocked. What is this "mission critical" desktop crap?

Windows 2000 over Windows Server 2003 would make sense in those terms. And I think those are both very solid server OS's. 1000's of mission critical desktops though? Semantics I guess.
This is just desktop. And while my personal experience with Vista is a hell of a lot better then the doom n gloom crap I read here in some posts this is still just desktop OS of choice.

A lot more people are familar with XP then Vista, and given the scenario here I would probably pick XP over Vista even though I personally consider Vista to be a better OS then XP. Most people I know haven't upgraded to Vista because their XP install is fine.

In somewhat related news...

[Idaho]

The dutch equivalent of "the consumerist" (de consumentenbond) recently started a program where consumers can send in their Vista-related problems, which they are going to urge Microsoft to fix or ask for money back (or perhaps, to give free copies of XP instead). To quote de consumentenbond (article in dutch, relevant part translated here):

"A power user will be able to solve most of the problems that Vista confronts him with, however the average consumer will run into serious trouble. The [operating] system contains so many mistakes that we want to investigate this in detail."

Furthermore, the article notes that "The consumentenbond dislikes the fact that new computers are delivered with the Vista operating system by default".

Yup, Vista seems to be doing great...

Re:In somewhat related news...

[udippel]

Hmm. It actually is bad, in my humble opinion. I read the whole article, and was disgusted that these days Microsoft somehow has managed to make it to the image of the Robin Hood for computer users; the fearless party that ropes in and waits for the reports by the users in order to help them solve their problems.
Neither the article nor De Consumentenbond point out that the mess and waste of time, money and energy on the users side is 100% self-inflicted; and due only to the desire of Redmond to make ever more money.

Let me also show off with my command of Dutch:

"Microsoft reacted by welcoming the research of the consumers' association. 'Microsoft is as always more than interested to learn about the experiences of the users with the new operating system Windows Vista.'"

"With the announcement of the consumers' association to collect eventual complaints, all additional information from the users is welcome. Microsoft understands that there might still be problems, and wants to resolve those quickly, also with the help of [its] partners."

I wonder: should I puke or vomit ?

Is the choice for control reasons?

[MadRat]

China has a much better handle on machines running XP than Vista. Perhaps their computer programmers are up to snuff yet on the Vista and cannot hardly get their snoop kits functioning on time for the games. China is one of those countries where every possible control on free speech is in place for when the wrong type of things get said. Its not that China censors all speech, its that as a society in general they cannot allow dissident speech.

Nothing new...

[TofuMatt]

Vista's price, system requirements, and youth make it a less-than-optimal choice for deployment in almost any business setting. What does Vista do for, say, everyone in my office that XP can't? Most people here on PCs run MS Office (we just upgraded to 2003), WordPerfect (and the rest of that suite... gross, but it's still our Government standard), IE, and FileMaker Pro. We already have images setup for XP (just load it onto the HD and we're done), and it means that the computers that aren't so great here can still be useful to people who are just using it for standard office work. It's a new OS, and it's received a bunch of notoriety for being a pain to use and upgrade from. I'm not a crazy Vista hater (there *are* lots of problems with it, and some aren't just bugs -- they're serious OS flaws), but I doubt I could think of five reasons for most people to upgrade to Vista. I upgraded my PC Laptop to Vista Ultimate and about two months later went back to XP Pro. I didn't hate it, per se, but I just didn't feel like I had gained anything by having it (and it hogging over 400MB of RAM at idle). And I certainly lost the ability to use a handful of apps I like. I'm sure we'll see Vista adoption, but at least not until SP1 arrives. There just aren't real reasons to upgrade yet.

My 1st BSOD

[G3ckoG33k]

While upgrading my Catalyst driver from 7.7 to 7.8 I had my first BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death) on Windows Vista Ultimate Eng OEM (64-bit), so yes i understand their worries.

Re:My 1st BSOD

[bazorg]

and was your reaction: "Wow!"?

Re:My 1st BSOD

[everphilski]

well yea if you are gonna run that ATI shit on Vista, its gonna bluescreen :P try nVidia next time ...

Re:My 1st BSOD

[rabbit994]

ATI drivers causing BSOD. Color me surprised.....

Re:My 1st BSOD

[SEMW]

well yea if you are gonna run that ATI shit on Vista, its gonna bluescreen :P try nVidia next time ... Would that be the same nVidia who's initial Vista drivers for their 8800 series still ride atop the charts (from all accounts) as the leading cause of Vista BSODs?

Re:My 1st BSOD

[everphilski]

No problems here :) Havent had a Vista BSOD yet.

Re:My 1st BSOD

[rvqbl]

The main complaint is that should a problematic driver be able to cause a system failure like that?

Re:My 1st BSOD

[plague3106]

Any other OS will crash as well if a flakey driver is installed.

Re:My 1st BSOD

[Kalriath]

A kernel (ring 0) driver? Hell yes they should. Well, shouldn't, but there's no way to stop it.

Remember, there's only two rings on modern 64-bit processors (blame Intel and AMD for that) - Kernel Mode (ring 0) and User Mode (ring 3).

Anything loaded into the same space as the kernel is able to crash things with little effort, and ATI and Nvidia are very good at that.

Reality check time for Linux fans.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

If a company with that much cash at hand and a willingness to break rules and fight a no holds barred battle finds it this difficult to dislodge XP from the desktop, Linux fans, we have a much more formidable task ahead. When people are asking, "Will 2009 be the Year of Vista?", it is difficult to take the talk about "the year of Linux Desktop" seriously.

I don't know what would be a reasonable expectation for Linux market share at consumer level in the year 2010. 3%? 6%? 12%?

Re:Its not so difficult

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this thread title named "Its not so difficult" instead of "It's not so difficult"?

It really isn't that difficult. Don't have a go at other people for something you can't get right yourself, and as someone said before, it's not a spelling problem but a grammar problem.

Re:Its not so difficult

[mixnblend]

Yeah, yeah, you may mod down the grammar Nazi now. fixed.

Don't forget...

[PinkyDead]

It's not the winning but the taking part that counts.

Well done Vista - good effort.

Re:Don't forget...

[Goffee71]

I think Dick Pound (best name ever) and the World Anti-Doping Agency were against letting Vista into the Olympics after hearing you needed a PC on steroids to run it.

But who does use it...?

[Renaissance 2K]

Just out of curiosity, does Microsoft even use Windows Vista at their offices? I have yet to hear of any place that made the upgrade. Or survived the upgrade, at least.

Actually, what the hell am I saying? They probably use Linux in Redmond. Or they just bought a bunch of iMacs.

Re:But who does use it...?

[Spellvexit]

I believe it, but it sounds like the majority of complaints come from folks using legacy programs, 3rd-party solutions, and just a few comments ago, video drivers for fancy graphics/gaming cards. I would imagine that in Redmond most of your software is Microsoft, made (and tested) to work well with other Microsoft components -- in that controlled environment, I should hope that it went as smoothly as it did over there!

Re:Its not so difficult

[suv4x4]

Why is it so difficult to get?

I ask the same thing: why is it so difficult to get, they just don't care.

Maybe the right question is: if they fixed it, would it bring more banner impressions.

Re:Its not so difficult

[StressedEd]

Why is this thread title named "Its not so difficult" instead of "It's not so difficult"?

I'd love to moderate this up as "Funny", but I can't.

vista can still get into the olympics...

[ArcadeX]

the special olympics...

Re:vista can still get into the olympics...

[Jogar the Barbarian]

Mod: +1 (Strong Bad)

It makes sence

[excelsior_gr]

Use XP where hardware compatibility and "out of the box" reliability is needed.
Use Vista where a nifty & shiny GUI will make a good impression.

Re:It makes sence

[Jugalator]

There's more to Vista than the UI. Actually, most of Vista is not about the UI. But still, yes, there is better reliability on XP so far for many.

Major setback

[Reckless Visionary]

"a major setback"

Come on, really? Complete sensationalist bullshit. Why don't we keep it up and refer to these meaningless events as "the final nail in the coffin" or ones that "spell doom" or "darken the horizon" for Vista. In case you hadn't noticed, the money's all going to the same place.

Re:Major setback

[Uninvited Guest]

I was just checking whether someone had already made this point. Microsoft isn't losing if the alternative to Microsoft's operating system is another Microsoft operating system.

kinda lame

[wwmedia]

kinda lame this makes fronpage news when more pressing issues in china like pollution during olympic games, human rights abuse and censorship by chineese takes back seat

Re:Its not so difficult

[PinkyDead]

'fraid not.

If you look at old maps and the like you can see the origin of the possessive form of nouns.

For example, off the South East coast of Ireland is an area called St George's Channel (named presumably by the English after their lightweight pseudo-saint) - but if you look at older maps you will see it marked as 'St George his Channel' meaning the channel of Saint George. Shorten that and you end up with St George's Channel.

Likewise Bob his computer. The dog its bone etc. Obviously there's a problem with Eve - but I presume this is because she wouldn't have been entitled to own anything at the time this ended up in the language.

So I think the GP is correct - though I'm sure some grammar super-Nazi will pull me up on this.

link is to a parasitic blog instead of the source

[1u3hr]

TFSummary links to TFA:
http://www.pclaunches.com/software/olympic_committ ee_chooses_xp_over_vista.php

which just regurgitates the story from
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/080807-vista -wireless-kept-off-core.html

Why not link directly to the source instead of some blogger collecting Adsense? Network World has got advertising too, of course, but at least they earned it by doing the work and researching a story instead of just plagiarising it like a Picquepaille.

And for fuck's sake "installing XP on it's machine".
"It's" == "It is". Possessive is "Its".

Not News

[daskinil]

This in today- People wanting a secure server use Ubuntu Dapper Drake instead of Fiesty Fawn. This isn't news, we hear stories of people using XP everyday on slashdot. I used Fiesty Fawn when it came out- it was still buggy as hell, wait for a few service packs, and maybe people will use it (referring to vista not Fiesty Fawn of course) . Just because another OS is better for mission critical apps, doesn't mean its more fun for the user. Otherwise I wouldn't be running KDE4 when it comes out. Which is sure to have at least a few bugs in minor apps for at least a year.

Re:Not News

[deftcoder]

People wanting a secure Linux server will *NOT* use a distribution of Linux based off of Debian Sid (unstable branch).

If you want a secure server, use Debian Etch (current stable version), configure SELinux, recompile the kernel with anti-stack-smashing and other patches (e.g. exec-shield), and set up some decent netfilter (iptables) rules, etc.

Re:Its not so difficult

[EvanED]

...except the other possessive pronouns.

His computer.
Her bicycle.
Its bone.

Not "hi's computer". Do you ever see that mistake?

So yes, it is a bit weird (especially because it's the only such pronoun with just an 's' tacked onto the non-possessive form, and "it's" is a valid word), but not quite as weird as you portray.

Did XP suck this bad?

[HangingChad]

I don't remember the transition from 2000 to XP being this difficult. There were a few bumps, the usual driver follies but nothing like the problems plaguing Vista. I don't remember companies going with 2000 because XP caused so many problems.

If memory serves the transition from 2K to XP was actually pleasant...at least by comparison.

Having said that I don't doubt MSFT will get Vista straightened out. My beef with MSFT products is not with the quality (although some of you could argue that quite compellingly). To me it's always been about value. Not whether it works but if it's worth the money you're paying. Right now, for Vista, that answer is "no" for a lot of people.

Re:Did XP suck this bad?

[Junks Jerzey]

I don't remember the transition from 2000 to XP being this difficult. There were a few bumps, the usual driver follies but nothing like the problems plaguing Vista. I don't remember companies going with 2000 because XP caused so many problems.

Most individuals and smaller companies went directly from Windows 98 or ME to Windows XP.

Re:Did XP suck this bad?

[cnettel]

Do you remember NT4 to 2000? Vista has a new graphics driver model, so did 2000.

Re:Did XP suck this bad?

[petermgreen]

The main change with XP was finally bringing home users onto the NT line (with some slight improvements in DOS compatibility over 2K though still far worse than 9x). From the point of view of those already on 2K it was a pretty minor change (really just a new theme and some extra bloat).

I remember a lot of pain arround XP SP2 though, partly fueled by the fact that they advertised it as a service pack yet installing it was as dangerous as an OS upgrade.

I would add ...

[rdrd]

... that "XP" is much a better name than "Vista".

For me, vista just rings the bell with the Terminator and stuff ...

Re:I would add ...

[orangesunglasses]

More like swan Vista

Re:I would add ...

[Spellvexit]

*shudder* The abbreviation does sound cool, but isn't XP just supposed to be short for "eXPerience?" "Windows Experience" is a far more revolting name.

Re:I would add ...

[rdrd]

it's a marketing issue, really. For most of us, the only name that resonates in our head is "XP".
Although I understand what you're saying, experiences are good and / or bad, you know ...

Re:I would add ...

[WWWWolf]

For me, vista just rings the bell with the Terminator and stuff ...

No, for me, Windows (T-)2000 rang the Terminator bell much louder... =)

setback?

[Snarkhunter]

I fail to see how this is a setback for Microsoft. They still get their license fees from XP (though this is China, you never know). More importantly, any time you see an athlete using a computer, or anyone using a private terminal, won't they be using Vista? I betcha any sponsorship the games get from Microsoft will be branded "sponsored by Microsoft Vista," not "sponsored by Microsoft Vista (but jokes on you guys we're really using XP for our back end stuff here at the games)"

Mod parent down... (was Re:Its not so difficult)

[Angstroem]

"http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_ a post.html"
In the latter 2 examples, when "It" is used to refer to the Olympic Committee or Microsoft, then "It's" becomes the possessive case.

You obviously didn't scroll down to the part of the page where it clearly says:

Don't use apostrophes for possessive pronouns or for noun plurals.

It's perfectly okay to use "it's" to signal possession.

No, it's not. Just read the very page you liked to refer. Or just ask your English Grammar teacher if there's a money-back-guarantee regarding his (no, not his') or her (no, also not her's) lessons.

Re:Its not so difficult

[beanyk]

I call bullshit. The first use of the apostrophe is the possessive case. ...

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_a post.html ...

It's perfectly okay to use "it's" to signal possession.

Did you even read the article you linked to? They specifically say that nouns (like Microsoft and committee) use an apostrophe for possession, and pronouns (like it) don't. "It's" means exactly one thing: "it is".

Re:Its not so difficult

[Elliot_Lin]

Why is George a 'lightweight pseudo-saint' now?

Poor language is simply poor education

[cyber.sammy]

Arrrr.. Rubbish.

"American English" does not exist as you describe. It is not some type of evolution of the language. This is simply a lack of education about the language. There is no excuse.

(Of course an an Australian, I really detest of lot the American changes to the language; for instance 'Customize' instead of 'Customise'. So I am not exactly a neutral party)

~cs

Re:Poor language is simply poor education

[pev]

Blimey, that's an odd argument to make - language DOES evolve. We're not speaking the same English we were in 1907. In 1907 they were speaking a different English from those in 1807. If as you say you should always speak which version of English are you taking as the definitive one? Besides that, how is "English" English more valid than "US English" or "Australian English"?

If you're interested, I can reccommend reading "The Adventure of English 500 AD - 2000" as a fascinating read with a good history on the topic of the evolution of our language.

For the record, as a well brought up UK resident I read and write "The Queens" English and naturally don't particularly like Americanisms - especially their dropping of an entire syllable from the word "Aluminium", but that doesn't mean that particular adaptation of the language is invalid.

~Pev

Re:Poor language is simply poor education

[turgid]

For the record, as a well brought up UK resident I read and write "The Queens" English and naturally don't particularly like Americanisms - especially their dropping of an entire syllable from the word "Aluminium", but that doesn't mean that particular adaptation of the language is invalid.

Donald Trefusis just turned in his grave.

Re:Poor language is simply poor education

[cyber.sammy]

HI Pev -

Yes, I know. My previous mail was specifically trying to address this, and I was trying to say that an individual American's destruction of the language is not some type of fruitful evolution which we should think is valid. It is simply poor English skills.

.cs

Re:Poor language is simply poor education

[pev]

I do agree, *but* its also an indication of the direction the language is currently taking. Given that languages change and words get added to to the dictionary based on popular usage. Whether it's fruitful or valid doesn't alter the fact it's becoming common parlance - the force of weight of many individual destructions of the language eventually ends up as a sea change on a national scale over the long term. Yes this boils down to poor English skill but that's how things change. Just look at recent additions to the OED or the proliferation of txt spk....

~Pev

Re:Its not so difficult

[dctoastman]

It's perfectly okay to use "it's" to signal possession.

Not according to the link you posted.

Re:Its not so difficult

[FiloEleven]

Hey, your link makes it look like you know what you're talking about. If you've got a Purdue English page backing you up, you must be right.

Except...what's this?

Don't use apostrophes for possessive pronouns or for noun plurals.

Apostrophes should not be used with possessive pronouns because possessive pronouns already show possession -- they don't need an apostrophe. His, her, its, my, yours, ours are all possessive pronouns. Next time try reading your own links.

Either way, Linux loses

[everphilski]

Suprised I haven't seen this pointed out yet, while everyone is so happy to see Vista not picked for the job, neither was Linux. So Microsoft wins anyways.

Re:Not surprising

[somersault]

But, but.. you can plug in your USB flash drive and have a little more space for crap!

Re:Its not so difficult

[that IT girl]

I am also a grammar Nazi, but what many people have told me is that they get confused because when using proper nouns, the apostrophe is used to indicate possession (ie, Nancy's book or London's population.) I suppose I can see their point...

Did you mean "It's not so difficult"....

[mario_grgic]

funny that you made the same mistake in the title :).

Re:Its not so difficult

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I think there's a critical observation to note - these days there's a clear separation between "American English" and "English English". In American English it's a kind of lazier language with many more complicated rules dropped and things shortened or slackened.

I could care less. It all means the same!

Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Training.

[twitter]

No point retraining the support people on Vista when I'm sure all the officials and athletes are still using XP.

No one cares about wasting user time, this is all about marketing and boosting Vista. Lenovo says Vista is too buggy to use and the athletes will have to put up with it anyway:

According to Lenovo chairman Yang Yuanqing, they're not going to load up their ThinkPads with Vista because the new and "like unstable" operating system "could have some problems." Microsoft's new crowning jewel will be allowed on shared terminals for athletes. On a side note, they're not going to support WiFi networks either (for security reasons).

That's typical of a M$ partner, going along with a marketing push of a system they know is crap. M$ will claim the Olympics are "Vista Powered" and that's all you will see on the idiot box and cnn.com. Their CEO still hopes the upgrade treadmill will spur sales, though the overwhelming evidence is that vista is a failure. From the CEO Amelio interview:

ChannelWeb: Do you view Vista to date as sort of a disappointment? How might you describe it?

Amelio: Anything that helps the PC industry I'm for. Vista for sure has driven upgraded hardware. There's no question about the systems we're shipping today, with more memory and bigger hard drives that would normally get people prepared for Vista. So from that standpoint I'm very happy. [but he's looking forward to service packs to fix problems]

When M$ dies and this kind of intentional waste ends. Computers will always ship bigger and better but forcing people to toss their old ones because of softare "upgrades" is evil. Free software will soon provide a smaller, but stable and steady market for good hardware that will be much better for the industry.

Re:Its not so difficult

[Uninvited Guest]

Don't believe it. Anyone sufficiently literate to submit a Slashdot story was taught the correct usage the first time around, even in the United States. I'm more surprised that the Slashdot editors did not catch it first.

Re:Its not so difficult

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The apostrophe is important when both possession and plural are possible interpretations of the extra s. In the case of nouns, this can often be ambiguous, but you never need to say "hiss" or "hers" in that context because you would use "their" instead.

This is also the reason that plurals of letters are generally written using the apostrophe: minding your p's and q's is fine, but talking about is is awkward. :-)

Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[twitter]

Vista is horrible, but Lenovo's CEO wants the upgrade treadmill to work. Athletes will have to put up with it and the public will be lead to believe Vista is what makes the Olympics work. If it's really going to work, the servers are going to use gnu/linux, BSD or something else that really does the job. I'm surprised that they admitted anything was not M$'s latest and greatest. The 2008 Olympics are going down in history like 1936, a zenith of the fake and evil.

The strategy is ultimately futile and damaging. Vista is more of the same from M$, and vendors who say otherwise damage their reputations and the industry as a whole. Vista is not selling and vendors are all suffering because of it.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[Afecks]

I'm surprised that they admitted anything was not M$'s latest and greatest. The 2008 Olympics are going down in history like 1936, a zenith of the fake and evil. So in other words, Microsoft = Nazis?

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[dana340]

Vista does suffer from many problems that give these opinions weight. On up to date PC's with 2 GB of RAM and fancy dedicated graphics cards, Vista still performs slow.. that is slower than XP. If you disable Aero and go with the classic look, we still experience the same problems. Open up the control panel, or worse yet, the add/remove programs wizard (appwiz.cpl), and see how ong it takes to get it to list. The UI is less intuitive than XP, and furthermore the OS asks you if you initiated a task.. really what's the point of that? If it's a security feature, I'm surprised it's not compromised as of yet. I was also asks by th OS no less than 4 times if i was sure i wanted to delete a cache of temporary files. I'm advising many of my offices to look into switching everything to mac as opposed to vista.

The clients i have with Windows Vista are receiving all types of errors. I've had a much higher instance of failed windows updates render the system unusable. I needed to low level the disk to get the windows installer to install again. I've had bluescreen errors that aren't even documented by reputable sources (like Microsoft). Running Vista is more of a liability than running Windows Me.. that is a sore topic for some of us i know.

So yes i feel that the Olympic committee ha s may reasons for not going over to Vista, software developmental reasons aside. i don't want to hear "A new world record was set today.. This was the first time that the athletes began to beat the hell out of the officials because the computers lost all of the records for the day's events."

lastly, every town in America has at least 100 geeks who end up tell everyone they can to stay away from Vista. Microsoft can no longer get away with releasing garbage for an OS, they've got to step up and give people a reason to stick with this outdated PC model, or else Mac will take over that market sector in 10 years, and everything else that a PC is good for (games) will be left to Microsoft only good (dare i say it) Xbox 360 and competitors like Sony.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[twitter]

So in other words, Microsoft = Nazis?

Collaborators. IBM did the same thing in 1933, but no one had Hitler over for dinner. Microsoft is an enemy of your freedom.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[plague3106]

If it's really going to work, the servers are going to use gnu/linux, BSD or something else that really does the job.

What planet are you from? Businesses much larger than the Olympics run on Windows servers. Do you even know what the Olympics requires server side? How can you even feel like you're qualified to make that statement? Its stupidity and arrogance boggles the mind..

The 2008 Olympics are going down in history like 1936, a zenith of the fake and evil.

Way to trivial the deaths at the hands of the Nazis and Japanese.

The strategy is ultimately futile and damaging.

The fact that someone with your thought patterns can even find a job is more damaging.

Vista is more of the same from M$, and vendors who say otherwise damage their reputations and the industry as a whole. Vista is not selling and vendors are all suffering because of it.

Yea, because you develop on the platform and really explored in depth the new offerings of it. And PC sales have absolutely stopped when Vista came out! The stupidity here at /. is astounding.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[Hoi Polloi]

The 2008 Olympics are going down in history like 1936, a zenith of the fake and evil.

Is it just a coincidence that they are being held in that bastion of freedom, China? I hope they didn't miss any bullet marks when patching up Tiananmen Square.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[twitter]

What planet are you from?

One served by Google.

Way to trivial the deaths at the hands of the Nazis and Japanese.

You are either unaware or not care about people being killed by the communists.

PC sales have absolutely stopped when Vista came out! The stupidity here at /. is astounding.

Vista is a failure and the upgrade treadmill is over. RAM makers, and PC vendors were both burnt cranking up production for sales that never materialized. Vista and Office 2007 have not even made a difference to M$'s own bottom line.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[plague3106]

One served by Google.

Way to go. You're suggesting that because Google uses Linux, no major business uses Windows. Idiot.

You are either unaware or not care about people being killed by the communists.

I'm not the one claiming the evil at the games is about MS software being used to run it.

Vista is a failure and the upgrade treadmill is over. RAM makers, and PC vendors were both burnt cranking up production for sales that never materialized. Vista and Office 2007 have not even made a difference to M$'s own bottom line.

The same thing was said about XP. Your stupid journal entry has been debunked time and again, yet you somehow think linking to it proves anything. You also seem to know nothing about economics. Excess supply leads to lower prices which leads to increased demand.

You're a typical know-nothing head in the sand /. zealot. You just keep sitting in your mom's basement waiting for Linux to take over and MS' campus burning in flames.

Re:Marketing has trumped reason at Lenovo.

[Kalriath]

Twitter, you are evidence that the Free Software Movement is not all about Freedom of Choice. Far from it, it is about forcing people to use what you want them to. Give it up already. They have their reasons for using Windows (and guess what, there's a pretty damn good chance it's NOT Microsoft! Contrary to popular belief, Microsoft doesn't pay ANYONE to use Windows... everyone who uses it pays!) and it's none of your damn business why that is.

You, Stallman and all the other hypocrites need to shut the fuck up already. To truly idealise Freedom of Choice, you guys need to back the fuck off and realise that choosing Windows is a choice.

Re:Its not so difficult

[Snocone]

tough I'm sure some grammar super-Nazi will pull me up on this.

Your speculative deduction is both logical and original, lacking only the minor detail of veracity. There are two common explanations for the usage you cite:

A) It was all a big mistake (technical term, "folk etymology") by Normans. The mess which is the usage of " 's " in English arises from the genitive case of Saxon, which was kinda-sorta adopted, but not consistently. So the fellow who wrote "St. George his Channel" on that map was a Norman who, completely confused by the Saxon name of the place as the locals pronounced it in their genitive case, wrote down the nearest sense he could make of it the way he spoke the language.

B) It was a deliberate attempt to disambiguate. Take the phrase "the King of England's forests". Grammatically, this is ambiguous, as it could mean either "the King of the forests of England" or "the forests of the King of England", and is only parseable because we know that forests and non-forests do not have separate Kings. (A good example of the kind of thing that bedevils natural language AI researchers.) This problem was more vexing in medieval times, when the name of a geographical region, "England" here, could mean either "the lands of the region of England" or "the political ruler of England", so "England's ships" for instance could mean either "the merchant marine crewed by Englishmen" or "the navy of the King of England", which could vary your meaning enormously. "England his ships", on the other hand, unambiguously means the King's navy, and was deliberately adopted for that reason. As the conflation of a region with its ruler died out as a grammatical construct, so did the need for this disambiguation, and thus the possessive case was readopted universally.

Take your pick.

Not surprising

[Jugalator]

Vista could be awesome, and any serious organization would still not have picked it, so this doesn't say much. It's simply too new and unproven. Now that it has performance issues (where some seem scheduled for improvement in SP1), that doesn't exactly paint a brighter picture either. So this is a bit of a non-news item to me, mostly aimed for narcissistic open source users perhaps? ;-)

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Macthorpe]

Because it couldn't be consumers demanding faster, better systems in order to, say, play newer games and HD movies? It has to be Microsoft and their 'evil' business practices. You conveniently forget that Vista will run perfectly well on a 1GHz machine with 512 megs of RAM, because that would ruin your petty tirade, wouldn't it?

And don't regale me on the puniness of the system that you run Linux on - nobody cares, let alone consumers. It's the nature of humans to always want more out of what they buy.

Anyhow, you'd be surprised to learn that Microsoft doesn't actually have complete control of the upgrades market. Hardware manufacturers and games producers have much more say in that when they release bigger, faster, better versions of their particular products. Do you really think that id would have been content to release every version of Quake they made on the Doom engine?

Remember ME?

[Lorean]

Vista is the new ME.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Cyberax]

Have you actually tried running Vista on 1Ghz+512Mb? I've tried.

It's noticeably slower. If you turn everything (like indexing) off - it's just about OK to use it. But not much better than XP.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[pedestrian crossing]

Because it couldn't be consumers demanding faster, better systems in order to, say, play newer games and HD movies?

Yes most businesses really need the gaming and HD movie performance.

Individuals aren't the area where uptake is slow, MS's problem is with the corporate/government customers.

Vista runs like shit on a 1 GHz machine with 512MB of RAM, compared to XP.

Corporate IT aren't going to waste their money on unnecessary hardware upgrades just to get the newest/shiniest. There has to be some sort of payoff, or else they are going to wait until life-cycle replacements get the hardware to the point where it can run Vista as well as their current systems run XP.

Re:Its not so difficult

[PinkyDead]

I thank you for your compliment, however, while my thinking may be logical, alas it is not original:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_genitive

Though I can claim to coming to this conclusion independently as I only searched for this reference after reading your insightful piece (for which I feel it would do you a disservice to class you as a grammar super-Nazi).

Re:Its not so difficult

[stewbacca]

Deplane is a legit synonym for disembark, not a made-up word by the airline industry.

Damn you Steve Balmer!!!

[Sfing_ter]

Balmer, stop posting here, and take your predilections elsewhere like the MSDN Forum.

High school, anyone?

[stewbacca]

All of these fools who think it's is ok for possession could, I dunno, take a 9th grade writing class? If they can't make it all the way through a semester of high school, then perhaps they should just pick up a copy of the APA Writing Style (5th ed.). I'm in the middle of moving, otherwise I'd direct you to the exact page and paragraph.

Let's (short for let us) review: It's = it is, and its = belonging to it, used for objects that are neither male or female.

Any other uses are simply wrong and there is no justifying one's laziness or ignorance on this forum. With that said, just acknowledge that a simple mistake was made, and we could have cut this thread in half.

Sincerely,

Not-a-grammar-Nazi-but-hate-stupid-people

Re:High school, anyone?

[Mr. Bad Example]

> All of these fools who think it's is ok for possession could,
> I dunno, be dragged out into the streets, put into stocks,
> and flogged?

Fixed that for you.

Genius Marketing

[stewbacca]

It's a master plan by Microsoft! Make Vista really bad and hype it. Soon enough, people will forget they've spent the past 5 years bitching and complaining about how XP crashes and gets infected with viruses and malware and how peripherals don't work, because compared to Vista, XP "just works". Meanwhile they are forgetting they've had a perfectly legitimate and superior alternative in Mac OS X the entire time.

Love is mutually exclusive with Windows

[stewbacca]

I've never known anyone to LOVE Windows XP. They only dislike Mac OS X (or Linux, or whatever else), so they use XP. And even then, they only dislike Mac OS X because they have too much personal background and training invested in the Windows route, or they like to pirate a lot of software, or they play video games, or they are hackers. Tinkerers really dislike Mac OS X, but that doesn't mean they LOVE XP; it just means they can tinker more in XP, which gives them more satisfaction. Even my parents won't budge from Windows, even though neither of them know a damned thing about computers, even 10 years on. They don't want to switch to Macs, because they think they will have to relearn everything (which is nothing, since they know nothing about their PCs, other than they are replacing them every year and some 'friend' keeps building them new ones for a 'bargain').

People who supposedly love Windows are the same people that claim their car never breaks down, yet they have their car up on blocks and are replacing the transmission. Or, they are the old people who hang around the water cooler at work and complain about their back pain and arthritis. I hear people in the break rooms at work complaining about their recent Microsoft breakdown and they just love commiserating with each other. It is a sick, sad phenomena that is passed of as people "loving" Windows?!?!

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Macthorpe]

it's just about OK to use it. But not much better than XP. Okay, so you're saying it runs about the same as XP if you turn off a lot of the things that business already turns off. Seeing as Vista is inherently more secure than XP, then wouldn't it therefore make sense to make a push to Vista?

At least they didn't link to physorg. :)

[argent]

Why not link directly to the source instead of some blogger collecting Adsense?

At least they didn't link to the PhysORG tarpit, which files the originating marks off any story so you have to google for the original.

nadir is yet to come.

[twitter]

the next time you find yourself using the word zenith to describe what you think is an undesirable situation, you may want to look up nadir instead.

The nadir came soon after. If you ever watch the beautiful films of the 1936 Olympics or "Triumph of Will", remember that more than 25% of the people in the crowds and most of the people in uniform died horribly not long after the films were made.

There may be no survivors in a conflict with China. People who enrich tyrants threaten all of us.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[plague3106]

When M$ dies and this kind of intentional waste ends. Computers will always ship bigger and better but forcing people to toss their old ones because of softare "upgrades" is evil.

Why do you assume people are buying a new computer JUST for Vista? That's kind silly isn't it? Would you buy a new computer for the latest Linux offering? Why assume anyone buys a new computer for Vista?

I think its good that a new OS is making better use of the hardware I have; otherwise the hardware is mostly a waste unless I'm playing a game.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[plague3106]

Um, you realize that 1Ghz computers are probably about six years old at this point, right? That they were making pentium 3s that ran at that speed?

I guess you think that an OS shouldn't tax six year old hardware, because that's what you have. So all those people that have newer PCs are held back because of you?

Then you claim it IS a bit faster than XP if you turn off services that XP didn't turn on as well. You really do have a point there...

Re:Its not so difficult

[Warbothong]

Its: this is the possessive, since possessive do not have apostrophes: his, her(s), its.

Daves, Mikes, Bobs, Sues, Chriss, Alices, etc. Why don't you do something useful with your education rather than mocking those who aren't as god-like as yourself? http://youtube.com/watch?v=lm2OzAX86JU

Olympic Committee Chooses XP v. Linux, Vista, OSX

[WED Fan]

There, corrected that headline. Cause, you know it's TRUE.

Veritas, baby, yeah!

Olympic apps for Vista?

[cpu88]

There must be some tools/utilities used by olympic official for their internal works. Are they using Windows?

I wonder there are apps developed for olympic 2008 to use under Vista.
If the tools to be used are initially developed for xp, it cannot be assured to be 100% running properly in Vista.

And, yeah, maybe Olympic 2008 by EA to be released next year can work perfectly in Vista!

Re:Olympic apps for Vista?

[ouder]

I wonder how much of the decision has to do with some practical issues with Vista "features." If they are hooking up equipment like timers and cameras, then the current state of Vista drivers could be a huge issue. I am definitely not a Microsoft basher, but anyone who views the situation objectively can see that there are issues of media content on Vista. A lot of Olympic workers probably move around media files. Have you ever tried to move around media files in Vista? It takes forever because of the DRM. And if they want to play their video out to a live video feed they may have to degrade its quality unless they are doing output that is certified as having proper DRM. In my opinion MS's biggest mistake in Vista was treating the recording industry as their best buddies and treating their customers as the enemy. They have managed to make Vista useless for media production or management.

This is slashdot, not cnn or kos.

[argent]

If you can come up with a computer technology related story set in China I bet they'll post it.

Like the recent one about the surveillance state they're setting up.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Cyberax]

WTF??? That's _1GHz_. It's enough to run lot of games and do basically everything.

My brand-new notebook works at slower frequency in power-saving mode.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Cyberax]

Vista is not really more 'inherently safe', even more so if you turn off the UAC (which everyone turns off as soon as possible). Actually, XP is pretty secure if you don't do anything bonehead. I've been running XP without antivirus programs for about 4 years now without a single infection.

And Vista has a lot of downsides: it can't be used in a VM, you can't use unsigned drivers, etc.

Olympic Committee Chooses XP Over Vista

[carljordan]

What's the surprise? MS always thinks it knows what is best for everyone, but sometimes they just don't get it. Vista is a very low grade upgrade, and still, so far as I know, full of problems. If MS wants to do something, they should do it big and do it right. Neither of those are characteristic of MS. FWIW.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Macthorpe]

You might want to do some research: Here is as good a place as any.

Fool me once...

[realinvalidname]

The IOC was rather famously burned by widely-reported technological problems with IBM systems at the Atlanta games in 2006, with bugs that reported some athletes as being 7 or 8 meters tall. Near the end of the games, I recall there was a proclamation that the IOC would no longer adopt any technology that hadn't been in production for at least n years. This may simply be a case of Vista, being not even a year out of beta, not qualifying for consideration under this very conservative restraint.

Those poor athletes

[unity100]

They sure wouldnt like to see any things that would remind them "poor performance" around in Olympics :

Vista will only be used in internet lounges set up for athletes to use during the games

It was an economic decision

[qazwart]

In China, the cost of bootlegged Windows XP disks are half the cost of bootlegged Vista disks.

Here's the thing -

[mergy]

MS tweaks their adoption numbers because it is not possible to buy XP licenses anymore. Instead, you buy Vista licenses and can use XP. So, I am sure for the MS marketing department and for their reporting it might look like Vista is doing great. They did this for XP to 2000 as well but not as aggressively as they did this time around.

Vista is not something we need at the business-level.

Poor strawman. M$ holds you back.

[twitter]

I guess you think that an OS shouldn't tax six year old hardware, because that's what you have. So all those people that have newer PCs are held back because of you?

Like he could. It's amazing how M$ Fanboys blame others for the bad things M$ does to them.

It's more likely he thinks that his software does more with a 1 GHz machine than Vista can do with a 3 GHz quad processor machine. Free software people have been delivering superior performance all along. In the six years that passed between the release of XP and Vista, free software systems released three stable versions of everything, each with real improvements in speed, function and features. The same software has been scaled to everything from pocket watches to supercomputers. There are thousands of distributions available, at least one tuned for any purpose and hardware you can think of.

Bill Gates, on the other hand can and does hold performance back with bugs, sabotage and digital restrictions. All Vista has to offer over XP is a mildly improved, some say degraded, interface. To get this interface and the ability to replace all of your existing non free software, you have to give up a considerable amount of privacy, media capability and even more software choice. Have you failed to notice the slaughter of anti-virus makers and sabotage of Google Vista brings? No one but M$ begrudges anyone working hardware. No matter how much money and equipment you throw at M$, the results are always the same. The sooner you get off the treadmill, the further you will go.

What the hell?

[Orig_Club_Soda]

Why do athletes need internet terminals!? Just because technology exist doesn't mean its appropriate for every aspect of life. Sheesh.

Re:Its not so difficult

[beanyk]

True. Sorry.

Support?

[zdzichu]

Will XP even be supported in 2008?

Re:Support?

[toddestan]

XP will be on extended support for quite some time. Actually, they could use XP for the 2010, 2012, and 2014 Olympics if they wanted too (extended support ends in 2014).

Re:Its not so difficult

[orzetto]

# insmod irony
insmod: can't read 'irony': No such file or directory

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Cyberax]

So. Let me see:
1) UAC - everyone turns it off.
2) Bitlocker - won't help you against trojans and viruses.
3) Windows Defender - run-of-the-mill antivirus program, and not the best one.
4) Parental controls - again, useless against viruses.
5) Memory layout randomization - most of the viruses are perfectly normal executable files. But this does give some security protection.
6) DEP - works fine on XP SP2.
7) DRM - I won't even bother to say anything about it.
8) Application isolation - this actually might work against some browser exploits (I haven't seen it used anywhere else). BUT an attacker can still install sniffer in your browser and gain access to your credit cards and personal data. And you could do this on XP with RunAs service.

So we get only two small security additions, which I'm sure will be bypassed in time.

So... There are these great security enhancements?

Re:Not surprising

[therufus]

Troll? How is that a troll post? I made a good point before I mentioned first post.

Retraining support staff for vista when they are probably still working with xp is a valid point.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Macthorpe]

So we can agree that "Vista is not really more 'inherently safe'" was wrong, then? I don't remember being required to give a certain quantity of security upgrades.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[jasen666]

I have no problem running vista in vmware.
Or are you just saying that we're not supposed to do it, according to that EULA I will never read?

Of course!

[wirelessbuzzers]

Lenovo knows that XP is just plain better than Vista. That's why on every page of their online store, it's clearly stated that Lenovo recommends Windows Vista® Business for business computing and that Lenovo recommends Windows Vista® Home Premium for personal computing.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[innerweb]

I am actually thinking about it. Then again, my newest computer is 9 years old. It runs the newest linux and I have no issues. My third newest one runs windows win98 for games, and it is starting to get flaky. If I went with a new MS OS, I would go XP Pro, but I am not sure I will go with a MS OS. I don't see any upside for me. All my family does is email and browse.. The kids play games, but both of them like the linux games just as well. I develop software and I have access to all of the tools I use on linux or the network (netbsd).

The only thing I am worried about with newest hardware are drivers. So, I will probably buy something not so new. I would happily buy MS OS if there were a compelling reason to, but I would not buy Vista unless DRM were ripped out of it (permanently) first.

I just believe that I have a right to do what I want with what I purchase. If MS wants to EULA me to death with restrictions that get in the way of me doing what I want to do (not pirating or anything, but general use), then I won't use it.

On my weekend job, I watch new computers with Vista blue screen all the time. HPs, Lenovos, Dells and Toshibas all BlueScreen (or Vista equivalent of Blue Screen) forcing me to reboot the systems every day. Sometimes several times in a day.

I have used all of the manufacturers with XP, 98, 2000 and 2003. I have never (even right after the releases of XP and 2003) seen the multitude of issues I see with Vista. There were issues with those as well, but not like this. Customers see these things happening and refuse to buy anything with Vista. There are those who buy, but we get sooo many returns because of Vista issues.

I wonder if MS subtracts the returns of their OS from the claimed sales? I never though of that before.

Oh, well, enough blathering for tonight.

InnerWeb

I'm suprised...

[A_Non_Moose]

all these comments and nothing about Vista being ready for the Special Olympics.

/ducks and runs

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[Cyberax]

Nope, we can't. Vista might be a little more secure, but this additional security is negligible. So for all practical means Vista is as bad as XP.

Re:Stability and Marketing are Issues, not Trainin

[plague3106]

WTF??? That's _1GHz_. It's enough to run lot of games and do basically everything.

Which is EXACTLY what was being said by those with 400mhz machines when 1Ghz appeared. Whats your point? New OSes come out to take advantage of NEW hardware.

My brand-new notebook works at slower frequency in power-saving mode.

Hmm, the slowest notebook I can find from dell runs at 1.8Ghz (and comes with Vista).

My six year old laptop runs at 1Ghz too, but I'm not going to put an OS that wasn't designed for hardware that old on it either.