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Walt Mossberg Reviews Ubuntu
sciurus0 writes "Mainstream technology journalist Walt Mossberg recently reviewed an Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu installed by Dell. Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X."
There are going to be some problems with the OS. The question that I have, are these things that a user can overcome? In the long run, will Ubuntu (or any linux) become more stable then some M$ OS?
Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X.
My wife has a Dell laptop and while the touchpad isn't sensitive the little nodule in the middle of the keyboard is while running XP! She doesn't use either of those though, she uses an external mouse so I guess neither matters to her.
Everyone with any sense knows that Linux isn't a great choice compared to Windows or OS X for those that don't want to learn a new UI (or anything else he said) as I've discussed here numerous times before to the pro-Linux troll mods' joy. Linux is a great option if you're not interested in additional cost, vendor lock-in, and attempts by a corporation to invade your personal privacy and choice due to their licensing allowances while covering it up with vague non-sense.
I will continue to run Windows and OS X on my desktop machines until any of the Linux distributions mature enough to match what's available on the Windows platform (which will probably never come unfortunately) and I will continue to trust Linux as my network server -- happily chugging along for years at a clip without as much as a hiccup.
Linux (Xorg, really) does configure touchpads to be too sensitive and some things still can't be configured graphically, but the fact that Dell is willing to sell a computer with Linux is a big step. It isn't perfect, but it is getting there. Frankly, reviews like his are what Linux really needs. Linux isn't deficient, but when people point out these things, it tells us "oh, maybe we can set more user-friendly defaults for touchpads in the xorg.conf - or create a small front end to edit them".
These reviews will only make Linux stronger.
Mossberg isn't just dumping on Linux or open source. He generally likes the idea of OSS:
Rather, he notes some average-user-level problems with Ubuntu (simple things like video, audio, and mouse issues). He's talking about usability by people who don't read Slashdot and are not related to (or dating) someone who DOES read Slashdot.
Of course, he still thinks that "the Apple iMac as the best consumer desktop computer on the market." And we all know the iMac is horrible to use and support!
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
He may be a Windows user, but he's also a much respected reviewer. Let's stop the attack and look carefully at his points and address them if necessary. How about a 'Getting Started' tutorial for new users to learn the UI and differences between Windows and Gnome?
I'd say for hardware support Ubuntu is way ahead of where Win2k was in 2000 or 2001.
That's great, but it's 2007 now.
I don't respond to AC's.
The hardcore Linux proponents can deny it all they want, the simple fact of the matter is that when the average user sits down with a Linux box, there are still numerous shortcomings that may make it unacceptable.
I've said it elsewhere, I've said it here; licensing MP3 would be a good start for Ubuntu. They can certainly afford it, and the US MP3 patents are only valid until 2012, so it'd cost at most $250,000 to essentially get permanent MP3 support.
That's all the complaints the author has. Not bad, I have seen Windows users with a lot more.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I think his point is that he shouldn't have had to.
How about someone that doesn't want to search for good AntiSpyware solutions?
Of course he didn't. Dell doesn't ship those. Read the article, he's reviewing as shipped by Dell.
Dell needs to take these things in steed. If Mossberg's criticisms are valid - which they seem to be - then Dell isn't far off from having a system perfectly reccomendable to 'non-techies'. Perhaps then Dell can compete with those preinstalled Ubuntu laptops non-techies do seem to find great out-of-the-box.
"First of all, Dell does not ship them"
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Anything not working is a legitimate complaint. Period.
It doesn't matter if the issues are legal or technological; if something doesn't work, it's an issue.
I would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use Linux, any distro. It would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. The technically savvy user would be able to keep their equipment cleaner from mal-ware and would be a lot more vocal about quality control of software products.
These kind of articles are what the Linux community needs. We need to have non-enthusiasts evaluate the distro, and then correct the problems. It's amazingly easy to get into the habit of understanding that an issue, or a kludge exists, work around it, and have it become so ubiquitous that we forget it's even there.
On the other hand, if we want to remain the elite minority, it's easy. Flame these kinds of articles and ignore the wants and needs of the non-elite majority. We'll stay Elite, holier than them, and a minority.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
#3. Playing mp3's - learn the legal issues, we've been harping on that for YEARS.
You're missing the point. Average users shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out why their software doesn't work. Legal issues concerning codecs are irrelevant to users. Either the product works, or it doesn't. In this aspect, the product does not work.
I don't respond to AC's.
Mark Shuttleworth, the South African-born founder of the Ubuntu project, told me this week that "it would be reasonable to say that this is not ready for the mass market." And Dell's Web site for its Ubuntu computers warns that these machines are for "for advanced users and tech enthusiasts."
Armed with that knowledge, he goes out to write a column about:
So, what do I mean when I say Ubuntu is too rough around the edges for average users?
Apparently, though it is "too rough" it is not rough enough to keep the uninitiated away despite warnings precisely to that effect, which is a damned sight more interesting by itself than the litany of peeves he enumerates.
None of which typically applied to a brand-new out of the box computer with Windows Pre-installed. What Walt was reviewing was a laptop provided by Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed by Dell. All of us Linux fans have been saying that the only fair comparison between Windows and Linux would be on machines with the OS pre-installed. We now have that situation, and Walt has some very valid criticism. Although I don't think the need to download new CODECs is all that severe, the poor video performance, problems with the touchpad and the crashing volume control applet are absolutely unacceptable for a pre-install.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
I tried Linux in several distros back in 2000 and was amused but not pleased. Driver support was crazy, the simple matter of changing screen resolutions was terrible, and useful applications (beyond games) made Linux a poor choice for the basics.
Times change, however. Contrary to Mossburg, who, much of the time, is a very even-handed and well-informed tech columnist that really knows the ins and outs of Windows and OS X, I'd have to disagree with him here.
I've installed Ubuntu client in my Parallels virtual environment on my OS X system. I like it over the past Linux distros for several key reasons:
(1) Ubuntu (actually, GNOME) has greatly simplified its interface, "stealing" good elements from both OS X and Windows. From the Mac, a fixed menu bar at the top of the screen, and only four menus at that. Finding things is easy. From Windows, the notion of menu-launching key applications a'la the Start menu button (rather than mere commands found in OS X menus).
(2) Ubuntu has very good hardware support, but always there will be a system that doesn't like it as well. This is because of the same problem that Windows has (although Microsoft has more money and clout to throw at this problem): Hardware quality and variations in the computer world are astronomically huge. Expecting any operating system to support the myriad of PC hardware variations is just near-impossible. Ubuntu does much better, in my experience in using it, than say another GNOME interfaced-Linux, Fedora. (In fact, Fedora is pretty awful in client form.)
(3) Ubuntu has EVERYTHING that the average Joe Offthestreet needs for basic internet and home needs: A web browser (Firefox, arguably best in the biz), an office suite (OpenOffice, always trying to be something that MS Office thinks it is), a mail client (Thunderbird, a client so nice I've moved from Apple Mail to it on my OS X system) and lots of games and the like.
Software update processes are now less crazy and propellerhead, again taking the ideas from the commercial camps. Security is as good as any Unix/Linux client, and since its not Windows, spyware and viruses are not generally present here.
Ubuntu loses only in the specialized "gimme-gimme" internet needs of the youth and industry, like iTunes (doesn't exist, but good MP3 players and support for them are, although iTunes Music Store reins supreme, IMO), some specialty web features for audio or video, professional-level graphic and audio tools, and enterprise support (this problem is shared with OS X, despite my own personal and professional efforts to the opposite).
Installing further applications outside of the bundled, however, needs work. GNOME needs to expand further with, say, Apple's "package" concept of a single app in a double-clickable folder that contains all the binaries and libraries for the app. For now, Ubuntu works like many Linux clients, so third-party apps are hellish to do for the average Joe Whodoesntdo-cmdlines.
If I had a friend or family member that needed a computer (PC) but didn't want to fight the antiquation battles that MS wants to give its consumers, AND if my friend only needed to do web, email, and general office stuff, Ubuntu is a hands-down favorite.
Mossburg and others, unfortunately, may have had too much exposure to other operating systems to see things more simply. Not everyone needs an enterprise-level operating system...just one that works for them for what they need, at home.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
That's great, but it's 2007 now.
Good point. We should be talking about Vista not XP.
And I can assure you a whole HOST of stuff needs Vista drivers, many of which simply do not exist or are horridly buggy.
From cdma/1x/evdo or gsm/edge cards to older printers, faxes, modems, scanners, to cutting edge graphics cards.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Theres a synaptic touchpad (the driver all touchpads use) driver gui to adjust the sensitivity of the mouse. Its availabe in the repos, and at that point is system-preferences-touchpad.
For the google impaired:
gsynaptics is the name of the package.
Here's the search that turned it up.. some people can't be helped I guess:
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=synaptic+touchpad+sensitivity+adjustment+ubuntu
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty/Hardware#Touchpad
My Babylon
So he has TWO legitimate complaints and one minor problem. He's an idiot.
Is this a fancy way of saying he's an average user? Your average user isn't going to know anything about the legal issues surrounding codecs on Linux. All they know is that on Windows and OSX their media files play fine right after installing the OS. The habit of calling new users idiots and blowing them off saying "RTFM" is one of the things that's stunted Linux adoption on the desktop.
By his "logic", Windows is not ready for anyone. Try getting an iPod to work on it without installing software.
An iPod comes with software and instructions that make it ready and easy to install on Windows/OSX. I certainly doubt there are any instructions in an iPod box that deal with installing it on your favorite Linux distro. Which means of course that you end up online searching Google for how to use your iPod with Linux. This is one of his (legitimate) gripes. In fairness it's not a gripe with Linux so much as it is with the lack of manufacturer support, but for users this is one in the same.
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
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He wrote that he is an average joe with strictly no technical skills...It probably means that he has used only pre-installed OSes.
How many people around you know what a CODEC is? How would they react if the operating system warns them that the program about to be installed may dammage their installation? What would they say if they can't sync their Ipod with their PC? Why would they say if the volume controller crashes each time the screen saver appears?
We all know the reality...The weak support Linux enjoys amongst manufacturers but consumers simply don't care, don't understand, don't want to know. It has to work period.
The Ubuntu founder recognizes that his product isn't ready for the mass-market yet (see the article).
I'm using OpenSUSE on my desktop for 10 months now. I don't have enough words to thank of all of us who have contributed to free software. Such a beautiful development environment (Eclispe, MonoDevelop, to name few) but...If you ask me If it is ready for my nephew and his Ipod, my sister in law and her pictures, or my brother fond of DVDs, I'd probably say no. I don't want to spend hours/days/weeks doing technical support for the whole family for such dumb things like syncing a Ipod, transferring pictures or print them.
When you buy windows, you pay for licensing the required codecs to play MP3 and video files. If Dell thinks this is a big issue that customers can't play MP3 files (and I think it is), then they should work out some kind of deal whereby they pay for licensing for these codecs, so that people can play the files they want to play. Also, it seems that Dell has really bad execution of this product, and that it's not really Linux or Ubuntu's fault. The machine should come working, out of the box, and if it doesn't, then Dell shouldn't be selling it.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
And this is because MP3 codecs can't be included in an OS without paying a bunch of money to Thomson (licensee of the MP3 patents). MS and Apple can pay this, Ubuntu can't. How could this ever be solved for free software until the patents run out?
does XP "not work" because it cant play h.264 out of the box?
The problem that Linux has is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a user perspective. The strength of Linux is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a technical perspective.
It's perfectly possible to make a UNIX OS be usable by the masses -- Apple's done that with OS X. The difference is that Apple "cheats" -- they only support a certain range of hardware, all of which is a known quantity to them. They're not dealing with the issues of a Frankencomputer made from whatever bits of hardware happen to show up.
The only way to get Linux as a mass-use OS is to user test the living hell out of it. That means a continual process of refactoring so that the user never has to view the command line unless they really want to. That means making sure that every application follows a consistent HIG. That means that the first person who says something along the lines of "RTFA" gets canned.
What matters isn't technical excellence, but a culture of usability. The Linux subculture is still based around the hacker ethics -- and that's why Linux remains an OS primarily for people who enjoy compiling programs and manipulating settings. That has to change. The culture needs to be one of taking a critical look at every stage in the process and presenting the user with a set of simple and consistent choices that let people use their computers rather than worrying about getting their machine in a usable state. Ubuntu's leaning in that direction, but they still have a long way to go.
The problem is that changing a culture is a hell of a lot harder than just writing software. A culture in which people are expected to navigate the Internet looking for answers will keep Linux marginalized. A culture that says "this problem is too complicated and needs to be simplified so that the average user gets it" is a culture that can take Linux to the mainstream. Not only that, but it encourages technical development as well -- a good number of the reasons for unnecessary complexity is because there are unnecessary complications in the way a piece of code works. At the end of the day, a solution that's simple for the user is often simple at the code level as well.
I've been using Linux for a decade now, and Ubuntu is a great distro -- but it still isn't enough. The only way that Linux will get mainstream acceptance is when Linux developers start consciously thinking about the overall user experience. It isn't the code that's the problem, it's the culture, and looking for technological solutions to cultural problems doesn't work -- just look at what Microsoft is trying to do with its current strategy.
Too true. A "yeah but" rebuttal means nothing. To be an attractive alternative to Windows, an OS has to be better than Windows is *now*, not better than Windows was when Windows was its age.
Linux is really awesome for certain uses, but it lacks the fit and polish of an OS that's had hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on smoothing out rough edges and strongarming hardware makers.
The sad thing is that Linux has been "almost there" for years, but the reasons why its not "there" yet is as much about the hardcore factions who do their damnedest to create a hostile environment for businesses and non-techies as it is about any minor technical rough edges.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
I haven't seen one for the differences between Windows and Gnome, ubuntuguide.org was a great place for me when I was starting out. In addition, Automatix is a wonderful tool to install all of the proprietary formats, players, etc. Linux isn't for everybody, but I think that if more people gave it a chance, they would find out that it isn't as scary as a lot of reviewers make it. Walt's review was balanced, but it was also wrong on some accounts (e.g. not being able to adjust the mouse touchpad sensitivity). I cannot totally agree with his experiences, either, as I have had 100% success in dealing with external devices such as iPods. I have been able to rescue a few iPods that were Mac-formatted with Ubuntu, something that I wouldn't want to try on an XP machine.
The review wasn't as comical as some reviews have been. (Who can put Window's Add/Remove programs on the same level as Ubuntu's Add/Install programs?!?), but there was very little content to go with the fluff. I don't think this article really tells us anything we don't know, or really helps sway new computer buyers one way or another.
Does that mean that Vista should really be renamed Windows 1999 ?
Deleted
Computers are not a magic, mind reading, fix everything in one click device. This guy expects everything to work out of the box perfectly and to his specs.
Not even windows machines do that. In comparison, it takes a fair bit of configuring out of the box to even get a windows machine ready for safe internet access.
Star Pirates
Amusing. See the subsequent Slashdot article, http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1543208.
It appears that the "vast majority of computer users" are the same ones who are so incompetent that they have surpassed viruses themselves as a source of affliction.
The "vast majority of computer users" need to learn how to use these complicated machines.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
No, that doesn't work. What he wants to be able to do is control the sensitivity of the touchpad--how hard you have to press on it before it registers a touch--and the tap feature. I have this same notebook (the 1420n), it is quite easy to accidentally produce a "tap" which is effectively a left-click. The only way I know of to fix the problem is with a kernel upgrade (alowing it to recognize this particular hardware as a touchpad with something more than a minimal ps/2 mouse interface) and a touchpad-specific configuration utility.
I'm very happy with the 1420n. It's a great machine for a Linux enthusiast (and it's an advance in terms of usability), but it's not yet a great machine for the average user who doesn't care what OS they get. This looks like a very well-done review to me, and accurate based on my experiences.
I'm not suggesting that the rank-and-file support the uninitiated, but perhaps Linux vendors can take these types of things as fielding notes to help them build a better product.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch... :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
How can he claim to be something he's not?
He's not claiming to be an average user, he's attempting to evaluate it from their perspective.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
All red herrings.
He's not evaluating Linux, or even Ubuntu, in some abstract sense to see if it's "ready for the desktop". He's trying to determine whether Joe Schmoe could go out and buy one of these computers instead of the version with Windows.
So it doesn't matter why something doesn't work, whether it's because Dell set it up wrong, or there's an issue of Free software, or whatever, the point is it doesn't work. (Or works poorly.)
"The Ubuntu-equipped Inspiron 1420N starts at $744, but the configuration that Dell lent me for testing sells for $1,415. The same unit equipped with Windows Vista costs $1,524. The Ubuntu version includes OpenOffice, the free office suite that competes with Microsoft Office. Dell charges an added $149 for Microsoft Office."
So what is your point? That people that don't want to run Microsoft products really should because its almost the same price for the hardware?
I suspect his points are that the machine he tested costs $1415, there's a version with Windows and Office for $109 more, and you could pay another $149 for Office if you wanted.
Do you always assume people have an agenda when they write something?
Typical Computer User: What's that you jabbering, son? Gyro-what? Is y'all from the future?
The point remains that a windowing GUI that doesn't ship with built-in support for what's rapidly becoming the most common consumer input device is fundamentally lacking. In mid September 2007, you shouldn't have to google anything or install anything to be able to fiddle with your touchpad settings.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
If the computer isn't running, it's awfully hard to Google anything. Mossberg's column is for end-users, not techies. It's for harried businessmen who are thinking, "should i jump to this Ubuntu thing my geeks keep telling me about, or wait another six months?"
Complain to Dell about the Automatix oversight, as he took what he would have bought from Dell and tried to use it, without having to become a guru first.
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
By "religious beliefs", I'm sure you meant to say "legal restrictions", since you can't legally ship most of the codecs you mentioned without a license. And in the recent releases (Feisty and on) Ubuntu will offer to automatically install codecs for you when you try to play without the codecs. And there is a single package (ubuntu-restricted-extras) that will install Flash and Java support (PDF and Office formats are supported out of the box if you didn't bother to try).
"I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
I agree 100%. Ubuntu is a great system, I use it daily and my teenage non-geek daughter replaced Vista on her laptop with it. The only big snag was that the speakers did not cut out when the earphones were plugged in, and the audio did not go to the earphones. This required the supremely geeky solution of hunting down a specific version of the ALSA driver, compiling it, and installing it, with the potential of having to do it again each time the drivers get updated in the repositories. My daughter was neither amused nor favorably impressed by this, and it marred an otherwise happy transition to Linux. Unlike Mossberg, she was perfectly at ease using the Synaptic Package Manager to install things once she was shown how. Also, there are several good, user-friendly books on using Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is definitely most of the way there, but the remaining roughspots are serious and definitely discouraging to new users. It would be wisest to work towards GNU/Linux distros that are so polished and integrated that Mossberg can't find fault with them. Don't criticize the guy. To most educated people, he is a tech god whose word is law. If he is leveraged as the pass/fail criterion for Linux, there will be an avalanche of new users.
I don't know if this was part of Shuttleworth's plan or not, but it may well be a brilliant strategy to quickly get Ubuntu ready for prime time. If Mossberg raves about it, everybody will rave about it.
Any moron can see that Linux isn't ready for the desktop, like Windows isn't ready for the server market. This is because most people want technology to just work. They are not technology workers and they don't care how it works because they have their own fields to learn, or are unskilled labor and can't learn.
I think what we as those who produce code should focus on is the generally low quality of software and hardware. In efficiency, capabilities and interface, our software and hardware today generally is mediocre but rarely better.
If Linux improves in these areas, it will be adopted, because the price is right and its hipness factor is higher than that of Windows or Mac OS (Windows is corporate, and the Mac is associated with smug trendsters talking loudly at Starbucks).
Let's be honest about the issues facing Linux.
1. Installation sucks. Hardware support is lacking, the process is ambiguous and confusing for most users. Included in this is "Your documentation generally sucks because it's done by non-professionals."
2. Much familiar, high quality Windows software is missing. Yes, Photoshop really is better than GIMP. And Office is better than OpenOffice. Quark is better than Scribus (or inDesign).
3. People want clear, simple, fast answers to common problems, not a "fiddle with it and come back to our mailing list so we can call you stupid again."
4. Someone to call in case of emergency who can give definite answers. It's 3 AM and your taxes are due, and there's some odd problem you don't understand. You can call Microsoft and for $200 they'll fix it. For Linux?
Knowing that software generally sucks helps us stop resting on our (or Linus's) laurels and lets us realize we have a lot to do. Software is still in its infancy. It is bloated and inefficient, it often lacks capabilities for common tasks and is unreliable, and its interfaces are generally awkward and seemingly created with no understanding of how the end user works. And interoperability is still in its infancy.
What I'm saying here is that to beat Windows, you have to be better at the game of being an operating system for people who are not obsessed with computers. Tech geeks don't understand that there are other ways of earning a living that are equally as if not more legitimate (and difficult) than typing in code patterns. These people want to focus on their specialty, not yours.
As long as we are content to scorn others for not being geeks, we will not meet their needs, and so Windows will continue to triumph over us as it is doing now. We need to stop thinking everyone out there is a tech geek. Think outside of the box? Think outside of your solipsistic skulls, and realize you haven't met the needs of the average or exceptional person out there.
technical writing / development
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What he seems to be saying is that Ubuntu is ready for corporate desktop. The minor driver issues can be dealt with by
support guys but otherwise the polish is there. It may not be ready for the grandma but his review makes it sound like
Ubuntu is ready for desktop (if there is someone to custom configure it upfront).
Is there anyone working on the complete client-server install distro of Linux (something that would install a complete
Linux groupware solution on the server and Linux clients ready to talk to said server)? A complete end-to-end install
where there is no need for things like Exchange on either end.
I think the GP post point is that Win2k was good enough for the "average user" back then. In the year 2026, we'll all be calling Vista of 2007 a POS.
Also, everyone always says these features for the non-techie and we need to do this so my 50+ grandmother can use it. I think that we forget that even long time Linux users don't want to deal with spending hours getting their own systems to work.
My primary job at work is to maintain Linux servers and development machines. I also have a few Linux PCs and servers at home. I hate it as much as the average non-techie when I try to boot up my nice shiny new Ubuntu CD and it locks up on bootup everytime. Or when I finally get it installed and the screen is all screwed up and there are major soundcard issues and I have to debug it or search forums.
Even if we didn't care about non-tech users, who here on Slashdot enjoys dealing with problems that could have been fixed by good autodetection and clear easy configuration choices.
How could this ever be solved for free software until the patents run out?
That's a good question. I have no idea. Regardless of what the solution is, it's still not the consumer's problem. The consumer is buying the end product, just like anything else.
If Bic can't sell you ball point pens with ink because they're having trouble with their ink suppliers, who's going to buy Bic pens, with the idea that "It's not their fault they can't get ink. I'll just buy some empty, non-functioning ball point pens, and work around the "no ink" problem myself."? Any sane consumer will assume that the Bic product is faulty (which it is), and buy a competitor's product that does function properly.
During the pet food recalls, nobody continued to buy potentially tainted food because the manufacturer made a good faith effort to provide a good product. The reason the products were defective is irrelevant. The products were defective, and no consumer in his/her right mind is going to buy a defective product unless there is absolutely no alternative.
In 2007, an OS that doesn't play MP3 files out of the box is going to be considered by most end users as defective.
I don't respond to AC's.
If you refuse to think, why even use a computer?
./configure-make-make install nightmare), it'll never become a mature desktop OS.
Because computers are supposed to think FOR you, and not viceversa? What drives me nuts is that linux fanbois still think as computers as "electronic puzzles to tinker with" instead of "tools that make your life easier".
The other day I saw a youtube video about Apple's intelligent agent (this video was made around 15 to 20 years ago). The agent, an AI "buttler" asked you questions about what you wanted to do, so you described the problem to him and he presented you the answers about finances, math, even making correlations on demand. You asked the agent to teleconference you with another person (and present graphs), etc.
Windows is much closer to that goal, simply because (yes, yes, I know, it's been said a gazillion times) "it just works". The implementations are still in the stone age, but at least they got the idea right. Linux fanbois are still stuck in the "hacker" way of thinking.
Let me remind you this: Users are NOT hackers!.
As long as Linux is released from the chains that tie it to the commandline (and the
While what you say is correct, the truth of the matter is that from a computer-literate point of view, many end-users (probably the majority of them) completely refuse to read, think for themselves, or even lift a finger to accomplish simple tasks.
For most people, computers are a magic box that should 'just work.' With Windows being invasive and ubiquitous, that ideal _appears_ to be achieved for most people, for a while, regardless of how broken and smelly the guts of the system are. After three years or so, viruses, bugs, and bloat lead to unstable Windows installations so people dump their systems and get new ones. This isn't how things should be, it's how they are.
In that sense, Walt's review was right on the money.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Why is it that we're saying "Hay Free OS, why aren't you as good as this one that costs money?" Shouldn't we be saying, "Hay expensive OS's, why is this Free OS almost as good as you?"
This is a Dell laptop shipped with Ubuntu. And it was reviewed As Shipped..as in exactly how your Average User would receive it.
Your zealotism is doing no favors for the Linux community. This attitude does nothing but damage the reputation and adoptability of Linux.
Let me give you just a wee bit of proof that hopefully you'll understand: What market share of Average Users are running something other than Windows or OSX?
Ahh, but you MUST be right...
(I'll leave it to you to figure out why you're not...and to hopefully see how articles like this are actually HELPING linux)
No Comment.
Sure he can. He (and 99% of the world) does not care about OSS. He loaded what was billed as a fully featured OS. These days, what part of what a fully featured OS is assumed to provide is default support for a wide range of multimedia. If it doesn't work out of the box, it should be seamless. If Windows or OSX is fed a video or audio file it doesn't support, it goes looking for a codec and often has it installed before you know anything it wrong. If Linux doesn't do this, should he care why?
Does Linux need any of this? Only if it wants to come out of the server room.
What did Linux ever do to you!!? Why do you people have to be SOOOOOO MEAN!!!!!?? LEAVE LINUX USERS ALONE GODDAMMIT!!!! They're just human beings exactly like you are!! And Walt Mossberg has to do and get all mean all over Ubuntu for what?!! Why does he have to be so mean!!? Leave Linux Users Alone!! Linux developers didn't even have to write the kernel, base apps and GUI for you. You're even lucky Linux exists! Just leave Linux users alone! Anyone who is going to diss and hate on Linux is going to have to deal with me first!!! Leave Linux Users Alone!!!
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
There's a difference between "You need to install software" and "Legally, you can't do this", you fucktard.
See, that's still a problem. He doesn't care that it's Free or not, just that it doesn't work as it should out of the box. Much in the way that democracy (or communism, or whatever) is both a political ideology and a form of government, Linux is both a social movement and a family of Operating System products. The thing is, he's taking the position not of the marching, banner-waving revolutionary in the street, but of the average citizen who doesn't care what that ruckus is, just that the busses run and his water's on. It's a sad fact, but that's all the vast, vast majority of people want.
Why should anyone believe a guy who cant even find the freaking mouse control panel? Is he really so stupid he can't figure out the mouse panel just might fix the touchpad settings on his mouse-less laptop?
the setting he needs to adjust isn't in the usual mouse control panel. you need some extra stuff (gsynaptic, i believe) to make the setting available, which dell really should have included, but didn't for whatever reason.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch...
You hit the nail on the head. Linux geeks actually do NOT want that. They still see themselves as the "computer wizards" and want to be worshipped for their magic powers. And yet, they fear a million joe users bothering them to fix their PCs. Linux geeks want everybody to be as smart as they are so Linux can be run on every computer in the world. They're OS-centric instead of being user-centric. That's their problem.
I don't care if i have to wait for the Duke Nukem Forever release date, I'd rather wait for ReactOS v1.0 (an open source WinXP clone) than switch to Linux.
And he is defining "work" as "being exactly like Microsoft Windows".
No, Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". And there is no reason other than him being an idiot to expect it to be.
So Ubuntu doesn't play mp3's out of the box. It DOES play
Does Windows play
Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". Do not expect it to be. Do not complain when it is not.
Understand WHY Ubuntu was written.
Can I legally give Ubuntu to 100 people without anyone being charged for it? Yes.
Can I do that with Microsoft Windows? No.
Oh, pray do tell me, what does Automatix provide you that the little program under Applications called "Add/Remove" does not?
Automatix is a third-party script that can screw up your system pretty badly, and can even leave your system unbootable. The Ubuntu team in charge of the repositories has analyzed the script and found a huge number of rough measures taken by the authors (like killing dpkg), and thus it has stopped its support. Automatix is bad and does nothing Add/Remove or Synaptic can't do.
What *I* found funny is that Mossberg didn't even mention the tons of free applications that are available via Add/Remove or Synaptic... Many of the answers he was looking for (like the codecs needed to play mp3 files) are available a couple of clicks away via an idiotproof GUI.
You most certainly poised yourself as a linux zealot, so don't get all defensive now.
And you still don't get it, or at least, refuse to admit it.
Sabotage? You are really insisting on that? You're really going to call what he reviewed an untuned version of linux and claim that as sabotage?
Ok, you tell me then. From the POV of the Average User, just what Linux pre-install SHOULD be reviewed if not a Dell laptop pre-installed with Ubuntu?
What, should he have come to you? And that would have been representative of your Average User's experience how?
Not sure what your agenda is, but whatever it is, it doesn't make sense at all.
No Comment.
Lastly, what about playing DVDs? Will Windows Media Player play DVDs yet? Last time I tried on an XP box, I needed to use Media Player Classic or VLC. That's far from working "out of the box".
I think a lot of people are already calling Vista a POS.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Sure, there were codecs and programs he wished were available by default, but notice that he _didn't_ spend any time uninstalling the adware or bonusware that Dell and other OEM outfits typically bundle with new laptops. I presume from the article that such annoying software is not bundled into their Ubuntu offerings, and that's a win, in my book.
Dell may be well-served by pre-installing common codecs and a decent DVD player by default, but the two minutes it takes to install such things under Ubuntu strike me as far preferable to the time I typically spend 'cleaning' a default XP machine from Dell (read: formating the drive and starting the XP install from scratch).
"To not admit that Windows and OSX are easier to operate, far more user friendly is just ignorant."
Well, I've only been using Ubuntu (and linux) for a few weeks, but I find it FAR EASIER than XP (I haven't used OXS, or Vista) in most respects. I can look up new software and install at a few clicks. When one beta I installed screwed up, it didn't kill the whole system. It un-installed as easily as it installed.
Most importantly, Ubuntu seems to be have a more intuitive and better organised desktop, was much faster than Windows which seems to get slower and sloooooowwwwer (thought time will tell) and I have to say, a lot easier overall which is surprising given how much more familiar I am with XP. Compatibility is still an issue, but to say Windows is easier? Maybe in some areas, but certainly not from what I've seen so far.
Nope, no "magic box" theory here. Computers have been given a pass for far too long. We expect our cars to work without any knowledge of mechanics on the drivers' parts. We turn a tv on expecting to get our digital cable HD content, without having any idea of how that works. Humans have been soaking in RF over AM and FM bands for what, a hundred years or so, yet less than 5% of the population can even tell you how a radio works. It is time for the computer industry to be held to the same standard as everything else.
The "main" repository and the base install certainly leave out legally objectionable packages, but I wouldn't say that installing them from the package management requires any more effort than getting Ogg Vorbis support on a Mac, or hounding the web for most of the basic codecs that are missing from XP by default. I'm not sure if the biggest problem here is simply setting your criteria to utmost divine perfection.
Just the fact that Walt Mossberg reviewed Ubuntu is a huge win for Ubuntu.
done by Dell. They just installed the basic Ubuntu and shipped it with the system at the step where it asks for a user name and all that. I had to spend significant time configuring the NVidia drivers, sound card, and audio/video codecs (probably a few hours altogether). I would bet that it would take days for someone new to linux to figure out how to do all that. For shame Dell... How hard would it have been to configure Ubuntu with the right drivers at least and then ghost that system onto every box you shipped.
Another interesting note about comparing it to Windows and OS X... I installed Windows XP SP2 in a dual boot configuration so I could play some games. Good god almighty, setting up windows was painful. I must have visited a dozen different sites, downloading 200MB in drivers, before I got everything working. The damned network card didn't even work after the initial install. I had to boot into Ubuntu, save the network driver to a USB key and then boot back into Windows. Also, I've had the system set up for about 3 weeks now and I still can't get the sound to work in windows. I've looked all over the web for the right windows sound driver with 0 luck. As for OSX, I still haven't been able to even install it! Oh wait, OSX only runs on Apple hardware... My forgot. Seriously though, if anyone know how to get the sound working in windows on an XPS 410 box, please let me know!
For those of you who are touting this story as a demonstration of linux's failure on the desktop, sod off. This wasn't a failure on the part of linux or ubuntu. This was a failure on the part of Dell in not providing a fully installed and configured system.
As a review for the Dell XPS 410:
After a Windows XP fresh install:- Network card: not working
- Video card: working but at 1024x768 with no 3d acceleration
- Sound card: not working (still not working, even after weeks of trying to find a driver)
After a Ubuntu fresh install:1, 2, 3, 4, 5... That's the combination on my luggage!
Have you used windows lately and run into the "missing codec" type of error? Windows does NOT seek out the codec and automagically install it for you. You have to go through the same damn rigamarole that you do with Linux.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5... That's the combination on my luggage!
If you look at the Dell website it tells you it is for more advanced users and probably won't work for mom and pop. Everyone else in the world also states that you need to be a little bit more savvy to run it, but you can understand it if you want to. Now my question... If everyone in the world that is involved with this has already stated that it is not ready for mainstream use, including the company selling the laptops. Why do we need a review saying that it is not ready for mainstream use? Seems redundant to me and more like a fluff article. Also if someone is not ready to try a new GUI interface and has used windows why would you buy a unbuntu laptop? I only bring this up because of the absurd comment the author made about people who aren't ready for a new interface shouldn't get it. I'm betting if they aren't ready for a new interface they've not even begun to look this direction for their OS. In any case the article is just fluff that has no real point. Bravo to the mainstream media for taking what Dell stated so eloquently in two lines and making into a thousand word dissertation. Oh BTW last time I checked you still had to manually update codecs for media player also.
He stated the facts as a person who does not live for computer use. He had problems and pointed out some problems that may seem trivial to us but to others they can be pretty big.
I'd rather see the mass public have something with those features taken care of than to keep answering the same questions regarding codecs, etc.
Some people posted on the list about various useful websites for documentation or utilities like Automatcix for installing stuff, the only problem is those things are not in the standard install so if Linux was suddenly 'general public popular' (be scared) we would be having to post again and again all these things because they are not something that is easy for the average user to figure out or find.
Recently I was looking for a good noob guide to Linux and the various OSS licenses (up to date and no really big long winded paragraphs with legal talk or platform bashing) and didn't really find any good ones. A lot of this is the 'well we already know that stuff already' mentality that is throughout the entire computer industry (i.e. "How do I take a snapshot of a Mac screen?" everyone who's been with a Mac for a decade knows but there is no easy guide for the new Mac people.)
I for one don't mind the situation as it is - cause once the 'AOL nation' moves to Linux we have the same problems MS has with Windows, "consumer lock-in", a lot of people keeping you from getting new/necessary work done because of fear that their old Apps don't start up any more (either rightly so or not). I figure there are are probably still some adjustments coming down the pipe before we want EVERYONE to depend on Linux to have it in wide use - too early makes fixing some problems a lot more difficult.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Yes Linux is ready for the desktop. No Linux isn't quite ready for those who have only known Windows with a GUI. Linux has been much much more stable then my Windows XP computer has ever been. No matter what I try to do to mess it up, all my applications load fast and stable. As for Codecs how much easier can it be?!?!? You click install codecs and it installs them! And you can even start using them without a reboot, and best of all you won't have to worry about some company making sure they are not "pirated" Also the GUI for Linux has been much much consistent then Windows, so yes the learning curve is steeper to begin with but you are guaranteed that you can either use the same GUI, use a CLI (if you want) unlike Vista or Office 2007. Thats whats going to be the "killer feature" for Linux and open source.
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
OpenSUSE 10.2 (10.3 is RIGHT around the corner)
For everything else........there's the lesser Ubuntu. I actually LIKE Ubuntu, once I install KDE on it. But I prefer SUSE for getting things done easily (And I don't shy away from command line, I am a sysadmin. I love by CLI). For newbies, it is not bad. It sets most things up for you. You have YaST for getting things done quickly w/o the command line. Package management for an RPM based distro is a breeze. It is not as fast as apt-get but it is thorough and has nice features like "rpm provides" which help.
I had issues where $somelib.so was not found and I went into Yast and typed somelib and checked rpm provides and voila, the package(s) that provide it were there, allowing me to check them. It solves deps for you as well. This is much easier than the missing dll hell from win9x days. People compare YaST to Synaptec or apt-get and don't realize it is MUCH MUCH MORE than a package manager. It is a command center.
OpenSUSE Picked up my TV tuner by default as far back as 10.0, all I had to do was scan for channels.
With the extra repositories (easy to configure) I have almost the same capabilities as apt-get (guru and such).
Things just seamed to work.
Spreadsheets are not a basic windows function. That is MS Office - an advanced user's add-on.
"Advanced user's add-on?" Hell, half the people I run into on a daily basis don't even know that MS Office is not, in fact, a component of Windows. As far as Joe Luser is concerned, if he buys a computer that doesn't make a spreadsheet, that fucker's broken, and I agree. Both you and GP are correct. Spreadsheets are not a "basic Windows function." Therefore, Windows is broken.
Once again, we aren't talking about Outlook, which is an Office item.
See above. If the computer doesn't do these things out of the box and without hassle, it is broken. Why Windows boosters see this clearly w/r/t (to pull an example from TFA) touchpad configuration or video acceleration, but not spreadsheets and email, is totally beyond me.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
What versions of Windows don't include MP3? It's certainly been in Windows Media Player for many versions. Back to Win98?
My video compression blog
I take your points, and to me it just seems as if nobody knows how to make a great GUI, or at least, nobody is making a great GUI. If there really was a great GUI out there, I might use it, but as far as I can tell there simply isn't.
I also think it's important to point out that it's completely possible to have a user friendly command line. I think command line interfaces get an unjustified reputation for new users. One of the most commonly used types of apps in the World -- the web search engine -- is based around command lines. Users type what they want, and the search engine tries to give it to them... often quite accurately. The Google command line is a great example of this. It's straightforward for new users to use quite effectively, and advanced users can customise their searches in lots of ways. It's not the type of precisely specified command line that would be associated with something like a bash session, but it's a well designed system appropriate for the task, intended to be quick to learn and easier to use.
Getting back to your comments about GUIs, I have to admit that one of the main reasons I prefer Linux as a desktop OS (and I fully agree this isn't for anyone) is that in a world where no GUI is that great, it provides an excellent command line. I primarily use the GUI these days to do regular things like open a web browser or edit a spreadsheet. But when I get sick of trying to interact with the GUI for a slightly complex operation such as moving files around in a certain way, I can switch to a command line and do things very easily.
Windows has a horrible command line as far as I've experienced. There are few consistent standards for how Windows command line tools should work together, and many Windows tools I've tried to use through a command line have been a secondary effort to an equivalent GUI tool. Often it's impossible to do simple things without invoking the GUI. The Windows Powershell stuff is quite nice for scipting functionality, but Windows still presents it through an awful interface for typing in.
Just my thoughts, anyway.
C'mon, have you even tried it? It's AWESOME
As someone who's worked with Linux both professionally and personally over the last 14 years, I often give Linux a try on the desktop. Each year or so, I'll switch to the current predominant "desktop" Linux. I tried Ubuntu, and for the first time in those 14 years, this was actually a Linux I could use. Unfortunately, though, "use" was it. I'd say it was "ok" as a desktop experience. Ready for the average user? Not without a Linux geek to help them out. I ran into problems with almost every update that I'd have to dig around to find a fix for, and few were issues that the average user could fix. When I bought my new laptop, I had actually planned on using Ubuntu on it, but I started playing around with Vista, which the laptop came with, and I decided not to even bother. Ubuntu offered me nothing that I couldn't do on Windows. Add to that Ubuntu didn't support a bunch of the hardware on my new laptop (fingerprint reader, webcam or the digitizer. Since it's a tablet, the last was key.) It's been a month and a half with Vista, and I've decided to give up on Linux as a desktop OS. Ubuntu brings Linux closer to the desktop, but it's still years behind Windows in terms of features, performance and stability.
Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
http://www.workorspoon.com
Automatix is BAD!
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html
You should be recommending Easybuntu or preferably Medibuntu. With Medibuntu, you just switch on universe and mulitverse and restricted, copy/paste the Medibuntu source lines into the package manager, then install w32codecs and libdvdcss. Upgrades then won't cause your system to self destruct.
The system will work with multimedia at this point.
That leaves one remaining hurdle, the video driver for 3D games. I agree that Dell could have taken care of this detail, but what are they going to do when the kernel gets upgraded and the video goes *poof* ? Sounds like a tech support nightmare. Forgetting about games support seems acceptable for the time being.
Because I see that a lot. You get an SSH login to your web presence and suddenly you're the "linux guru" at your place of work.
And in that 14 years, you still haven't learned to check to see if your hardware is going to be supported in a recent kernel before you buy it? I guess you bought the wrong tablet PC, because we've deployed it quite successfully for use in idiot-proof AV systems, among other things.
As a linux user of 8 years, I think desktop distributions have come a long way in that time period, and I don't find them any more or less difficult to get working than a Windows OS.
I think the only reason that you were able to get Vista to work on your laptop is because it was supplied with an OEM support disk especially for your machine; they did all the hard work of getting it on there and correctly configured for you.
There are vendors who do this for linux if you care to look for them and pay the premium.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
In the best case scenario, both are easy, and 'just work'.
On windows, if none of the hardware is supported out of the box, the hardest thing you have to do is go download drivers, and then install them. Then you hit MS Update, and patch, with the firewall cranked up. Thats as bad as it gets. It may be slow (patching an xpsp2 windows, for example), but its easy and straightforward.
The worst case scenaior on Linux is much, much worse. Situations where video doesnt work, at all, without grub changes, or finding an 'alternate' install disc. Where you have to poke through arcane 'blacklist' files to prefer one driver or another. Where you have to download the windows driver for the wifi for it to work with yet another piece of software. Where 3d hardware 'just wont work'. Where the laptop buttons and special features 'just dont work'. Same with hibernate/standby.
So yeah, when Linux works, in the best-case scenario, its better than even the best case windows scenario, because apt-get update and apt-get upgrade are superior to MS Update. But in every situation below that, its much, much worse.