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France Leading Charge Against OOXML
Bergkamp10 writes "As Microsoft's Office Open XML document format waits in ISO limbo, South Africa, Korea, and the Netherlands are now actively pursuing the alternative Open Document Format instead, said the ODF Alliance. The Alliance now claims 500 members, and by their count 13 nations have announced laws or rules that favor the use ODF over Microsoft's Office formats. Those nations include Russia, Malaysia, Japan, France, Belgium, Croatia, Denmark, Germany, and Norway. The French have been the most aggressive in their rejection of Microsoft's standard; nearly half a million French government employees are being switched to OpenOffice. There has been no similar move in the US, though in a speech at Google last week Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama called for data to be stored in 'universally accessible formats.'"
Viva la French for their choice of OpenOffice
I am surprised Korea is on the list. I remember a story here on slashdot about how many websites there relied on active x code that was incompatible with Vista, so much so that very few in the country were expected to make the switch to Vista.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
And all it takes is for Microsoft to say "Look, our document format is also universally accessible, we even have 'open' in the name," and most people would believe them. Good thing though, Obama seems to have some sort of grasp about the concept of computers and the interwebs.
c++;
The UK is even going as far as open sourcing their data!
09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
Not in tubes?
Seriously, it is good to have at least one of the Presidential candidates address an issue like this.
FAQs are evil.
I wonder if we will walk this path for long : the actual gov has a strong tendancies to follow advices and formats from the lobbying companies (for example, the hardening of the DADVSI law, counter part of the US DMCA).
But I'm still happy to hear this
Would they let me cvs changes I made back in?
*ducks*
The UK has had a policy of equal consideration for open source solutions for years now. Unfortunately there are still many cases of corruption -- Microsoft's recent "Schools 2000" (I think that was the name, but possibly not) program, for instance, where it gets a monopoly in every school, and cases where the best bidders on non-IT contracts have been told that they "said all the right things, except that they didn't use the word 'Microsoft'".
Unfortunately it's easy for a country to say it supports open standards, just as it's easy for a country to say it's "helping" in Iraq. Reality is often much different.
There have been some very bad things happening lately in France like the Olivennes report which is to lead us to some massive and generalized internet filtering (this has already been discussed on slashdot here : http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/1355220&from=rss) and having a president who is a friend of major media corporations doesn't help in this regard. I guess the ODF support is at least something I can be proud of in my country. And I definitely hope it will last as Sarkozy makes me kind of pessimistic both for French and European future (sadly, not only in a technology-related fashion)
From two coworkers not directly related to computer science:
- What? Everybody uses Word.
- Oh, dear god, please let them reach a consensus.
Guess which one works as the step between scientific writers and printing services.
The general opinion of many of the Brits I've known has been: "if France is for it, there's got to be something wrong with it." Maybe the British can still support OOXML, but the French will pronounce the acronym as "oohjemel" while the British will annoy the French by pronouncing it "oxemul".
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
Barack Obama called for data to be stored in 'universally accessible formats.'
Like printouts?
They are very proud of their country and they're already running Mandriva in (iirc) Paris. This is perfect for showing other politicians that we're falling behind and should really push a bit more towards open source and open standards.
So thank you =)
Or carved on stones, good for durability
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
No braille
The whole French Gendarmerie (105000 people, a bit akin police, but of military nature) is using OpenOffice. They are very keen to open source in general , as they can look at, and change, the source code, as well as manipulate the files as they wish.
here they are: http://www.dis29500.org/category/countries/france/ nearly as much as the UK and more than twice the USA total. Raw totals of comments can be a bit missleading, but the UK, France and the USA were the top three in terms of numbers of comments. That kind of indicates the level of detail with which they looked at the standard, not the depth of feeling they have about it and how resistant they will be to MS lobbying during March (they have 30 days after the BRM to change their votes - it will be a crazy amount of lobbying and no doubt there will be more corruption/allegations of corruption)
Goverments documents should be stored in format that is free and open and has free converters to other accepted formats - that is all. Law that says i need to use odf format, is as bad as using M$. Hey but looking at other people comments i see: "as long it is odf SCREW FREE CHOICE".
You store it on CDs and then put it in the post. That way, potentially anyone can get it :-).
Insert
GPT is always good for a laugh in French.
threadeds blog
French have been the most aggressive in their rejection of Microsoft's standard
With today's headlines, it seems "aggressive" and France go together these days.
At least some admit that they have been bribed :-) See China's sole comment (http://www.dis29500.org/category/countries/china/):
China National Body have been paid special attention to the ISO/IEC DIS 29500 ballot. Great work have been done and during the process we found it is a very complex technology which needs further more time to establish testing environment for thoroughly and deeply evaluation. We think the fast-track procedure is not suitable for this DIS.from the to-stupid-for-words dept.
But, I guess, msft has done a good job in hiding that fact.
Now that there isn't an ODF, Inc, who is in charge of the format? I'm assuming it's the OpenOffice developers, isn't it?
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
>>Law that says i need to use odf format, is as bad as using M$.
Wrong. ODF is honestly open, OOXML is absolutely *not* open. In the OOXML specs there are several sections that essentially say: "do this the same as in Word-95" but the Word-95 specs are still closed.
BTW: ODF does not exclude msft. There are pluggins that allow ms-office to work just fine with ODF. Also, msft is entirely free to incorporate ODF if msft so choses. Msft's claims that ODF excludes msft is pure bullsh!t.
like the French are leading the retreat away from OOXML.
Obviously, other countries may be different, but it should be illegal for the USA Government to enforce, by law, the use of one product/standard over the other, IMO. Certainly laws should exist saying something like all data should be stored in open standards formats approved by X$ organization, which at this point is the same thing (since OOXML isn't approved by any such organization, yet). It shouldn't dictate exactly which standard, though... because at the very least, they'll also get bogged down in specifying what version(s) are allowed, and all sorts of other issues, not the least of which is depriving free-market decisions on which standard(s) to support by various vendors.
:(
The government technically isn't allowed to compete with private industry either (for obvious reasons), but unfortunately, that happens often enough these days as well
Dont just trow a rock, explain why the export of SSL (certificates) is weak?
Higuita
Plain old paper, in triplicate. I will be here all day, try the veil.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Denmark has NO rule that favors ODF. We have a "dual format" trial period due to politician incompetence.
Unfortunately our science minister is also quick to speak about how Denmark is "in front" w.r.t. open standards when in reality his party has blocked every progress in that area.
The government currently says that MS-OOXML is an open standard.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Unfortunately, the british archers can remember that a french charge can be quite a disaster (Hasincourt).
It makes perfectly sense for the government to standardize when practical on some formats for its own documents, so citizens won't have to have converters for zillions of different formats, just in order to talk to the government. In this regard, the government is like any other big organization, and should have the free choice you seem to advocate against.
Where the free choice of the government should be limited is that they should not be allowed standardize on formats that are entangled with legal limitations.
Apart from that, we can argue on technical merits on what formats to standardize on.
The harder they squeeze, the more sand will slip through their fingers.
...but I doubt it. I expect they've got a proper file format prepared for when the going gets tough. Kinda like the way they announced C# on the exact same day the lost the Java court case.
The mantra of "lock in, lock in, lock in" may yet be their downfall...
All I'd bet money on is that they won't "lose" this fight, and they won't ever support ODF.
No sig today...
In a locked cupboard in a basement without stairs and no lighting in a room marked "beware of the leopard".
We were running out of leopard signs...
With the availability of the free (as in beer) Word document viewer, it's arguable that Word .doc files are in fact universally accessible already, for some reasonable definition of universal (cf. universal telephone access). You might argue that people still have to buy Windows, which could constitute an obstacle to universal access; but going one level further, they also have to buy a computer regardless of which OS runs on it, so even a free software solution isn't actually without cost.
Bandannarama
eh, they'll surrender eventually
I guess the courier thought the CDs contain music and when they would not play he trashed them, so the lost data is likely quite safe.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Why couldn't his advisers tell him to come out in favor of ODF?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
It's a format. Notes is a product. Word is a product. Kwrite is a product.
Do you complain that your government mandate 110v 60Hz mains, rather than let you (or your electrician or the local power company) decide what voltage and frequency to use? No, because the product is electricity only for your electric company. You aren't BUYING electricity, though, you're buying what you can do with it. E.g. heating, lighting, playing your music or games. Watching TV. They use electricity, so you need to have it, but you don't just watch it sit there.
And so it is with formats. ODF is a format. It is open and YOU can write an application that supports it. As long as you don't take someone else's code to write it, there is no legal problem in doing so. Now write an OOXML application and tell MS that you do not agree to any license for doing so.
a) you can't implement it because it is missing central requirements for its creation
b) MS will sue you for violating their IP when partially implementing OOXML
so which is open for use? ODF or OOXML?
But Word can write ODF (if you had access to the source code, you could rewrite it, as it is you have to let MS employees write it). Word is the product. ODF is just how to change what YOU want into what the computer needs.
and use another language that you choose.
Oh, nobody can understand you? Well that's why you CANNOT CHOOSE. If you want to communicate with someone, you have to use a common language.
So fo I have to buy Locoscript because you liked that format? Or should I have to buy Word 2007 because you wanted OOXML? Or can I write either of these docuemnt formats into my own program (MarkyOffice) and get away with it? I can with ODF. I can write MarkyOffice with ODF capability and be fine. No worries there. No license to buy, no deals to make. Just write it.
Can I write OOXML into my own program and ignore MS's license (or covenant not to sue or whatever they're calling a license now)? No. So how can WE choose OOXML? You can choose OOXML and live with the consequence of not talking to me. If government choose OOXML, I no longer have a choice - I HAVE to license MS's standard. If they choose ODF, I can use my own written program MarkyOffice to communicate with them. I STILL GET TO CHOOSE.
that's the end of Microsoft format.
Great troll! Really top rate. :)
The sad thing is that some people are actually that jingoistic.
Consider that for a moment.
Ah yes, not make a dime.
Yes, Red Hat (American), SuSE (German), Canonical (English) are all going bankrupt, aren't they? Just like SCO is going strong, selling closed source apps to power tills. Oh wait.
Where on earth did you get the idea that open source stops you making money?
No tyrant thrives when every subject says no.
Proud to be "jingoistic", its the cause of me and ultimatley us(US).
The romanticization of all things open source is just bringing things a step closer to the future Randian dilema where no one can profit from the fruits of their labor and creativity goes the way of all the wonders that communisism and socialism have produced in their collective and miserable history.
Thanks for the troll props, I wear it well and actually mean it so considering "it" is really more a lifestyle choice for me rather than the knee jerk reactionary left wing psychobable that gets modded up here on the gashdot where you have your own vernacular like "vendor/format lock in" to really mean you boought a chevy or honda or a microsoft.
Imagine that, you made a choice and lived with it rather than wishing for some universal socio-political widget.
But I dont expect you to understand so I and others like me will just troll over you and watch as open source just perpetuates as it has, in the shadows, unloved and unprofitable and ultimately stuck in 2nd gear.
Enjoy your Kool Aid, drink up "its free"!
Well, not officially an adviser, but Creative Common founder Lawrence Lessig supports Obama.
So your cynicism is badly placed.
You probably refer to the battle of Agincourt?
Most britons remember the battle but few seem to remember the fact that they lost that war.
That $400 you save will quickly be lost in decreased productivity. France is a bureaucracy so no surprise they're making such a stupid move that will mean even more employees on the govt. payroll.
An allegiance for promoting the "open" formats?
Makes you think how open (in the sense originally intended, the sense of freedom of access) these standards are.
If the final beneficiary of this open standard (supposedly, its mankind, and possibility to access to a non proprietary document format), shouldn't be the users the ones "supporting" it?.
A list of users, that support the standard shall be sufficient, to support this.
Nations supporting the standard, puts a too heavy load on top of the developers backs.
Nations and allegiances if any, shall support the freedom to create such "open" or free standards. And the freedom of their grassroots to choose amongst them.
Although, its known, some developers have actively asked that the motivation, and the ideology injected in open source software, shall come from individuals (or maybe organizations) other than themselves, (as maybe a single person integrity is too frail to support the load of the evil empire conspiring against).
Somehow, is the support that good initiatives need. But again, it looks odd to me.
I doubt that article is entirely true. Until there's an actual government formed in Belgium, there'll be no laws being discussed or made whatsoever.
...and votes? Come to think of it, so did the french...
They (Yes, Red Hat (American), SuSE (German), Canonical (English) are all going bankrupt, aren't they?) are not household words are they now?
They are in my household, but I'll admit that my household is hardly the norm. In more normal households, true, these names are not mentioned. On the other hand, neither is Microsoft.
How much wealth has been created between them?
More than I'll ever spend in my lifetime. Enough to give a living to their employees. Above and beyond that, I find wealth meaningless.
Open Source as appllied to Red Hat or Suse is simply a repackaging of Unix, spare me.
Nice SCO line there. Linux is Unix-like, but not Unix. So return me the favour and spare me the FUD.
Do I think the Microsoft family of OS is the be all to end all, no but is it a Unix derivative, no.
Wait, what are you actually trying to say here? Windows isn't the ultimate OS, but it isn't Unix-like? Are you trying to infer that a Unix-like OS is the ultimate one?
Open Source is simply the Davids trying to beat Goliath but producing more hype than heat...yawn.
Oh yes, plenty of hype/marketing/etc, but just because there is more of that than heat, doesn't mean the heat isn't there in spades.. and it's the feet of closed source that's being held to it.
Yes your correct my open source not making money argument is weaker than I may have infered but bears some truth and the most obvious ideologicaly flawed drivel that in the world of Open Source, I must share my source code, translation, reveal trade secrets that I have labored to render
Oh my, I'll cry you a river. Yes, all business models should continue on forever, no matter what comes along. Damn, we should never have abolished slavery - look at how much it costs when you have to pay people to work. And trade secrets? So what? The damn things are worthless - all it takes is one slip anyway, and bam, there goes your so-called secret. Try going the IBM route - give away the product, SELL the support that goes with it. You wrote the code for it, so you're in the best position to support it. That's what IBM is doing, and it's hardly hurting them, is it?
In time innovation will ultimately stagnate as the best ideas are left to die on the vine as no one profits and all thought becomes public property, the peoples property.
Care to reveal what ideas in open source have been left to die? Go on, tell me one. And let me give you a little tip: Most open source licences do not forbid you to sell your product. Ohmygod. What a shocking idea. The GPL even encourages you! All the GPL requires is you make your source code freely available. You don't have to give away the binaries compiled from that code, but you do the code itself - that's what Red Hat does.
I dont know about you but anything labeled as "the peoples property" has historically been limited to long term failure of all aspects... economics, intellectual and technological.
While you have a point here, where did you get the opinion that open source is the peoples property? The Linux kernel belongs to Linux. The GNU utilities belong to the GNU Foundation. Every bit of open source code belongs to somebody. But that somebody has decided to make the source available under a copyleft licence. And trust me, they get something back for that opening up: free development. If their product is a good idea, it will attract developers and get better. Bad ideas loose developers to good ideas, and the world of open source improves in general.
No tyrant thrives when every subject says no.
The problem is that Microsoft called their Office Suite "Office", and Sun called their free Office Suite "Open Office". Multiple companies using generic names for their products is bound to cause confusion. If one or more of them had named their program something like "Firefox" or "Poopaladoo", we would not have such confusion.
I call it MOO-XML. You can also remember the mnemonic phrase, "It's not open, it's not XML, and it's not a standard."
Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
why do they have a license?