Library of Congress's $3M Deal With Microsoft

Cory Doctorow sounds the alarm over a Library of Congress deal with Microsoft that will have collections locked up in Silverlight. I'll double the Microsoft deal and offer them $6M in perl scripts and an infinite value of free OS software if they let me (or Google or any other honest company) publish their collections in free formats. "This deal involves the donation of 'technology, services and funding' (e.g., mostly not money) with a purported value of $3M from Microsoft to the Library of Congress. The Library, in turn, agrees to put kiosks running Vista in the library and to use Microsoft Silverlight to 'help power the library's new Web site, www.myloc.gov.'"

Comments

where's the advantage?

[ILuvRamen]

Okay so they traded off having to use use silverlight in order to use Vista kiosks? That seems like a bit of a lose-lose deal to me. They must have some pretty stupid negotiators. Plus, how could anyone be so stupid that they put something that important into a super proprietary format?!

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, we are running a deficit. I guess the government needed the $3 million dollars.

Re:where's the advantage?

[HappySmileMan]

Yes they are stupid about it, it IS a lose lose situation, anyone want to email the Library of Congress? Time for some registered voters to get involved instead of arguing on slashdot. http://www.loc.gov/help/contact-general.html That;s the contaxct info, I'm not sure which of those categories it falls under, but someone should write out an email and have a load of people send it in. Congress don't listen to common sense, they DO listen to voters.

Re:where's the advantage?

[kc2keo]

I don't like this type of deal as it will lock-in to proprietary formats. But hey I think money talks and maybe the negotiators are only looking into the short term benefits. In the long term there will probably be problems when M$ decides to change the format once again making the format used to create lots of documents in Office 2007 either useless, or conversion problems, or maybe the converter will work well? Only time shall tell if this actually goes through.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Z00L00K]

The important thing is not the kiosks, but if they also are going to run Silverlight on the publicly accessible parts of their services. In that case they are limiting the access to their records to those that are able to run Silverlight.

Re:where's the advantage?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Its not a trade off, TFA states that the plan is to use both: silverlight (for their website) and vista locally for their kiosks.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

The benefit is wizzy 3d effects!

I hope all the linux users here like using Novell's distro, here's some evidence that Silverlight is entirely patent encumbered

"to avoid patent problems over Silverlight, when using or developing Mono's implementation (known as Moonlight), it's best to get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include patent coverage."

Moonlight will be able to run on any distro supported by Mono, which is most of the major distros. Under the terms of the agreements we have with Microsoft, Novell customers are covered by Microsoft's covenant not to sue over patents. In terms of Moonlight, that means that, if you download Moonlight from Novell (which is free of charge), you are considered a Novell customer of Moonlight, whether you run it on SUSE Linux Enterprise or on another distribution. If you get the Moonlight code from elsewhere, you are not considered a Novell customer, and so don't fall within the covenant.

That's Miguel and Novell speaking.

Re:where's the advantage?

[jlarocco]

Wow, I bet that's flying off the servers.

At the very least they seem to be missing the point of free software. IF you're going to restrict it that much, why fucking bother?

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

To Whom It May Concern:

In my opinion, it is a bad idea to restrict access to some of this nation's most prized possessions by requiring a non-standardized, non-open software package in order to access valuable information both in an online format and to visitors at the Library in Washington D.C.

Microsoft's Silverlight is an unproven and immature new technology. While Microsoft believes that the software will become very valuable, it does so by restricting access to operating systems and web browsers that only Microsoft deems worthy of using this new technology. With respect to Microsoft's anti-trust history, it would behoove the Library of Congress to steer clear of this technology. Especially considering several states fear Silverlight may be a source of future anti-trust violations.

I would strongly urge you to reconsider implementing Microsoft's Silverlight in favor of an open and freely available technology such as AJAX, SVG, and H.264. By using open and free standards and technology, you will be: 1. Allowing open access to all citizens, not just those deemed worthy by Microsoft. 2. Guaranteeing open access to all citizens for the foreseeable future, without restrictions imposed by Microsoft as upgrading becomes a necessity. 3. Guaranteeing open access to all citizens for the foreseeable future, should Microsoft demand a fee for access to its technology. 4. Allowing open access to all citizens without requiring them to bow to Microsoft's restrictive licensing agreement.

Thank you,
(your name here)

Re:where's the advantage?

[nametaken]

Cataloging and Acquisitions I would think...
http://www.loc.gov/aba/contact/

All the way at the bottom.

I'm using this one, someone please post if there's a more appropriate place.

Re:where's the advantage?

[HappySmileMan]

Mac users also fall into this category, and that's like 6% of the population of USA, and then about 0.8% for Linux from recent survey I saw...

They listen when 6.8% of the population are unable to access these things.

Re:where's the advantage?

[HappySmileMan]

I sent it using form on a href='http://www.loc.gov/aba/contact/general_form.php'>this page

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, M$ is already well on the way to locking down content in libraries...check out this mysterious new machine that recently appeared in our local library...'free' audiobooks for download. Which aren't free in any way, shape or form, of course. Microsoft windows DRM encumbered/infected/infested audio files, which librairies have been brainwashed into purchasing, for literally tens of thousands of dollars, and ignoring/publicizing truly free(dom) sites such as libravox.org

Check out this site for all the horrifying details of how librairies are selling out:
http://www.stratford.library.on.ca/downloadlibrary.html

Re:where's the advantage?

[LiENUS]

I hope all the linux users here like using Novell's distro, here's some evidence that Silverlight is entirely patent encumbered

"to avoid patent problems over Silverlight, when using or developing Mono's implementation (known as Moonlight), it's best to get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include patent coverage."

Moonlight will be able to run on any distro supported by Mono, which is most of the major distros. Under the terms of the agreements we have with Microsoft, Novell customers are covered by Microsoft's covenant not to sue over patents. In terms of Moonlight, that means that, if you download Moonlight from Novell (which is free of charge), you are considered a Novell customer of Moonlight, whether you run it on SUSE Linux Enterprise or on another distribution. If you get the Moonlight code from elsewhere, you are not considered a Novell customer, and so don't fall within the covenant. Emphasis added
IT appears as long as you download moonlight from Novell's servers you are a customer of Novell. No need to run Novell's distribution. The only thing of Novell's you need to use is their bandwidth. Which is thankfully compatible with other distros.

Re:where's the advantage?

[nicolastheadept]

I suggest you mention freedom, and free trade. They ought to do the trick. Of course mentioning the monetary benefits wouldn't hurt.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Fourier404]

Silverlight doesn't run only on windows. Mac and most linux people won't have any problems, and the rest of the linux people are probably smart enough to make it work.

Re:where's the advantage?

[killmofasta]

Oh is you Ramen!

"How could anyone be so stupid that they put something that important into a super proprietary format?!" Your talking about the level of goverment service that brought you the post office?

Silverlight does not work on any of my Windows 2000 boxes. It probibly blows chunks, on firefox, but I wouldnt know. The point about proprirey formats is VERY IMPORTANT. I always consider the 1950 Census. Tapes are there, and no one can read them. We do not have the technology anymore, but more importantly, no one thought to put them in format that could be easily read. What would you have done? They should have converted the data, every census into the latest formats, just as backups!

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

True, it's worth saying though that it won't be a default part of Debian/Ubuntu, Fedora/Redhat, etc. due to the patent policy.

Re:where's the advantage?

[IHC Navistar]

Congress don't listen to common sense, they DO listen to voters. They don't listen to voters, either. They only listen to lobbyists and anyone else who gives them lots of money.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Frosty Piss]

The important thing is not the kiosks, but if they also are going to run Silverlight on the publicly accessible parts of their services. In that case they are limiting the access to their records to those that are able to run Silverlight.

I wonder how the ADA effects this? Clearly screen readers can't read SilverThingy, but can they read PDF or simular formats? Is it even relevent? Don't know, just thinking...

Re:where's the advantage?

[Glendale2x]

http://www.section508.gov/

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me again what percentage of the American populace doesn't have access to paid medical benefits?

Then you can take your "they listen when 6.8% of the population are unable to access these things" and shove it...

They'll listen when 1 person says something, if its the right person (or their balance sheet has enough positive weight). If you're talking about anyone in the bottom 50% of the nation though, they'd have about as much chance of effecting change by screaming their dis-satisfactions at the sky...

-AC

Re:where's the advantage?

[bluefoxlucid]

Paid medical benefits would cause a tax increase to the general population, reducing the number of freely available jobs at the same time (slowed economic growth), leaving a great deal of people in a poor financial situation. Just like the recent sales tax hikes in MD, which don't affect "essentials" but don't classify any kind of food you can eat without cooking it or keep on hand and prepare it as needed (like deli meat) as essential.

Re:where's the advantage?

[TeraCo]

It's true, that's why all of those other countries which offer health cover have massive unemployment???

Re:where's the advantage?

[ichthyoboy]

How about the General Error Reporting page? It says that it's for reporting technical problems....

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

So were they really that stupid to do this, or is someone on the take? The library at Alexandria was accessible to one and all. As a Linux user, I have no doubts, that when I go to this government website (one funded surprisingly enough by tax dollars), that I will be given a message about coming back in 50 years when someone decides that I may be able to get support (in a primitive backwards, ascii-content only punched card format). Talk about vendor lock in! Are there going to be real documents at the library anymore, or is microsoft going to make sure that everyone must *MUST* use their format in order to get any use *ANY USE AT ALL* out of this taxpayer funded government library. The library might talk about liberty and freedom, but in practice they sure are great at killing it! Stupid idiots!

Re:where's the advantage?

[palegray.net]

They must have some pretty stupid negotiators. Or some negotiators with a newly increased bank account balance. Or some negotiators with some bosses who have a newly increased bank account balance. Sooner or later it usually comes down to money.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Crazy Taco]

Does this deal give Microsoft exclusive rights to publishing online? It sounded to me more like Microsoft gets to put Vista kiosks in the library that show silverlight versions of text (which is good for Microsoft because it gets them in front of a lot of tourists), but as far as online searching and indexing goes, does this completely preclude the possibility of others indexing content?

Re:where's the advantage?

[guisar]

loc.gov == locked out citizens.gov. Outrageous.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

SKY! Why you tell LOC use proprietary?

Re:where's the advantage?

[MacWiz]

The advantage is that now the LOC can join the class action suit for people who bought Vista.

Plus, how could anyone be so stupid that they put something that important into a super proprietary format?!

The copyright office's inability to understand technology is legendary and the sheer depth of its misunderstanding is awe-inspiring.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go look at archive.org. Microsoft has a licensing arrangement to scan the books to pdf, but the pdf files crash under non-Windows Acrobat readers.

As an added bonus it says, (C) Microsoft", etc. at the bottom of _each_ and _every_ page: so after an average book, you've read the word, Microsoft, 249 times.

They're sick bastards.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Jerry Smith]

Paid medical benefits would cause a tax increase to the general population, increase the number of freely available jobs at the same time (especially medically trained), leaving a great deal of people in better health and ready for the job market.

There, fixed that for you.

Why do public institutes like the LoC get influenced by companies? I don't mind getting influenced by a major company, especially when large sums are shoved my way. Yet if I'm a representative for the public, or something public, or have people expecting me to do the right things instead of only the monetary attractive and interesting: hell, how many ways to describe 'bribe'?

Re:where's the advantage?

[hairyfeet]

Please don't call Hillary a hooker,that is just mean.What did the poor hookers ever do to you?

Re:where's the advantage?

[Lotunggim Ginsawat]

H.254 is not a freely available technology. Heavily-encumbered with patents is more like it.

Re:where's the advantage?

[Quikah]

Libravox.org only has public domain works. That Stratford library link has more than just public domain.

Re:where's the advantage?

[bluefoxlucid]

Hmm. I must be influenced by all the bitchy canadians I know always talking about how their taxes are massive and their healthcare sucks; and the papers their college students publish about how they need a capitalist-type system like America has to improve the matter. They obviously just need something to complain about even though they have such wonderful health care.

Re:where's the advantage?

[jafac]

Why do public institutes like the LoC get influenced by companies?

You have to ask?

It's because Americans elected a "CEO-President". (who then appointed the persons who made this decision)

We got precisely the government we voted for. (49 million of us, anyway). Duh.

Re:where's the advantage?

[riverat1]

And why they generally spend less than 2/3 per capita for medical expenses that we do in the USA.

Related

[Idiomatick]

I can't buy coca cola in toooons of places including my school. Pepsi paid all the retailers to stock only pepsi not coke. Very much the same but pepsi hasn't got taken down over it yet so i figure neither will MS.

Re:Related

[l2718]

Imagine that in order to drink these Pepsi bottles from your school, one needs a special bottle-opener which is only sold by Pepsi for $100, and that it's illegal (for good reasons) to share your bottle opener with your friends, so each of you needs to buy your own. Assume also that Coca-Cola bottles can be opened by any old bottle-opener, including bottle-openers you make yourself, and that it's perfectly legal to share bottle openers for Coca-Cola bottles. Would you still be OK with Pepsi buying off the retailer to only stock Pepsi?

Re:Related

[node 3]

Yeah, I'd be fine with that so long as I can still readily buy Cokes elsewhere, or even if I preferred Pepsi in the first place. What I *wouldn't* be fine with is having to buy a Pepsi-opener in order to view publicly-funded archives of my nation's history (er, to drink the free soda my government is entrusted with preserving for the benefit of all humankind--hey, it was *your* analogy!).

Re:Related

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, lets take this a step further:

Lets say Apple purchases Coke. And then they change the bottle so that any nonofficial iBottle opener will ruin the taste of the product.

How would you feel about that?

Re:Related

[krelian]

And what if 90% of the population already had the special bottle-opener at home anyway?

Re:Related

[Otter Popinski]

I don't follow. Can you please rephrase the question in terms of cars?

Re:Related

[LinuxDon]

Then Pepsi would have made a ton of money. Since these bottle-openers tend to break every 3 to 4 years, so you'll have to buy a new one.

Also, Pepsi will just make them more expensive over time so you'll have to pay even more to drink that free government soda!
And when other people create a compatible bottle-opener so they can compete, Pepsi will quickly change the design of the bottle-opener to render the other ones useless!

Is the US government this poor?

[l2718]

Greanted, $3M is not petty cash, but surely that's the "sticker price" of the software to be installed (e.g. on the Vista kiosks), not the cost to Microsoft or the true cost after negotiations. So is LOC so cash-strapped that they can't afford to create their website without this ``donation'' ?

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[TubeSteak]

So is LOC so cash-strapped that they can't afford to create their website without this ``donation'' ? The LoC has to pick and choose their battles when it comes to funding requests. They do a lot of stuff off budget by collaborating with Centers, Foundations, Institutes, etc.

The LoC also gives away a lot of money, in the form of grants, for fellowships & university programs. So they could cut some of that, but someone else will feel the pain.

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[STrinity]

There's a difference between being poor and having to meet a budget.

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[l2718]

There's a difference between being poor and having to meet a budget.

In case this wasn't obvious, my point is the following: given the choice of spending $3M of its budget and getting a system which works for everyone, or getting the project funded by Microsoft and getting a system which is only usable by people who first pay a Microsoft tax, LoC prefers to get the funding from MS. To me this means that they are so short of cash that the alternative to getting the "donation" from Microsoft is no website at all.

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[STrinity]

To me this means that they are so short of cash that the alternative to getting the "donation" from Microsoft is no website at all.

They already have a website. They want a new, improved spiffy Web 2.0 site. Either Congress didn't budget enough for the project, or LoC looked at Microsoft's offer and realized that with the money they're saving, they can make the site even spiffier.
 
Look at it this way, if someone offers to buy a house for you, does accepting the offer mean that you don't have the money yourself?

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[l2718]

Look at it this way, if someone offers to buy a house for you, does accepting the offer mean that you don't have the money yourself?

If someone offered to buy a house for me, on condition that all my friends will have to pay him rent to visit, I would be quite concerned, and might decline the offer.

Don't forget that LoC is not a private company -- it is actually charged with providing a public service. Once this spiffy public service becomes accessible only to those members of the public who first purchased a product from a specific private company (coincidentally, the one that made the "donation"), you are in serious trouble. The alternative is between having a ``free'' extra-spiffy website only accessible to Microsoft's clients, or a less-spiffy website accessible to everyone, but paid for by the LoC. It's true that the taxpayers would save money upfront were MS to build the website, but they would then have to pay the "microsoft tax" to use the website later. That is quite unfair, especially to those of us who are more comfortable with other operating systems.

Re:Is the US government this poor?

[LeadSongDog]

Is a nation's memory worth a penny per citizen? Perhaps not.

Silverlight

[LiENUS]

Remaking myloc.gov in silverlight doesn't bother me as long as they don't lock out non-silverlight enabled browsers. If I suddenly can't browse a government website that is at least partially funded with my tax dollars then I'm taking my money elsewhere! err wait... nevermind...

Re:Silverlight

[milsoRgen]

Remaking myloc.gov in silverlight doesn't bother me as long as they don't lock out non-silverlight enabled browsers. I agree, and I must say the summary starts off somewhat misleading. The website will use MS-Flash, the collections aren't going to be locked into any proprietary MS format.

Microsoft Silverlight, a graphical browser plug-in, will help power the library's new Web site, www.myloc.gov, where users will be able to access and personalize interactive materials. Really what's one proprietary format over another, granted Silverlight seems to be Windows only. Still the meat and potatoes of what the library does is the same old same old.

Re:Silverlight

[garett_spencley]

Sounds like a good enough reason to write your representatives and let them know how you feel about where your tax dollars are going.

Re:Silverlight

[l2718]

Remaking myloc.gov in silverlight doesn't bother me as long as they don't lock out non-silverlight enabled browsers. If I suddenly can't browse a government website

that is at least partially funded with my tax dollars then I'm taking my money elsewhere! err wait... nevermind...

Well, if LoC had a website, and then MS paid them to reproduce all the functionality in Silverlight, that would be mostly fine (though it would complicate managing the website for no good reason). But the idea here seems to be to add new functionality that will only work for Microsoft's customers.

This kind of behaviour is not without precedent. For example. in some states building codes were drafted by industry associations, which were then awarded copyright in the regulations -- so you had to pay a private company in order to read mandatory state law. At least here MS isn't interfering with the content of the LoC. The real concern would start when they will announce the partnership to "digitize all of the LoC collection", of course into digital formats only readable by MS-written software.

Re:Silverlight

[canuck57]

Remaking myloc.gov in silverlight doesn't bother me as long as they don't lock out non-silverlight enabled browsers. If I suddenly can't browse a government website that is at least partially funded with my tax dollars then I'm taking my money elsewhere! err wait... nevermind...

I think this is the intent. Get users to downlaod and install Silverlight into Firefox. Many har having issues too. Can't beat them, destabilize them. Plus MS gets code into the browser once again. But not me, I see that Silverlight Icon, I will just move on.

Re:Silverlight

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Seems like you asked and answered the crucial question: Really what's one proprietary format over another, granted Silverlight seems to be Windows only.

Re:Silverlight

[LiENUS]

Really what's one proprietary format over another, granted Silverlight seems to be Windows only. Still the meat and potatoes of what the library does is the same old same old. Whats the other proprietary format? HTML is quite cross platform and works just fine in my web browser without any proprietary plugins. myloc.gov doesn't appear to have any issues loading right now.

Re:Silverlight

[arotenbe]

No one said Silverlight is Windows only. There is already support on OS X, and full Linux support is coming.

Re:Silverlight

[milsoRgen]

So, some enterprising group of users will write a linux binary...
But when the choice comes down to Microsoft or Adobe... Hmmmm, neither one thank you. But Flash at least is a necessary evil at times. Nothing to get worked up about.

But this irrational hatred of Silverlight is a bit beyond me. Big fucking deal, at least it's attempting to become a competitor of Adobe Flash. Competition spurs innovation and all that jazz.

Personally I could care less what format the library is using for their interactive menus on their website. Just as long as the Library Of Congress does what they do best, be the de facto national library with one of the greatest collections of print the world has thus far seen.

Re:Silverlight

[milsoRgen]

Whats the other proprietary format? Adobe Flash
Such as found on the front page, http://www.loc.gov/ (homepage/swf/main.swf)

Re:Silverlight

[__aaqvdr516]

seems to be Windows only Incorrect, Silverlight is supported in Linux and Mac.

Re:Silverlight

[timmarhy]

ms is doing it for free you dumbass. its a DONATION of 3 million in software.

Re:Silverlight

[LiENUS]

I don't see any flash. http://www.loc.gov/ is perfectly navigable without any proprietary plug ins whatsoever. As I said, I'm not concerned about them including Silverlight. I am concerned about the website being navigable only with Silverlight. Sure you can argue a point I'm not making. But I could also argue that mashed potatoes are far better than macaroni and cheese and as such you are wrong.

Re:Silverlight

[LiENUS]

They are doing it in exchange for the library of congress using Silverlight on their web page. Sure no money is changing hands but there is consideration given.

Re:Silverlight

[cheater512]

What on earth is so wrong about HTML? :(

Re:Silverlight

[domatic]

The core is but Silverlight can easily make direct use of Windows API calls. MS will go out of their way to make impure Silverlight use the norm. This thing is a trojan horse to needing Windows to use the web.

Re:Silverlight

[ampmouse]

What about FreeBSD, Solaris, and my Cellphone? And "Full Linux support is coming" could mean years. Is their a open source implementation of the viewer?

Re:Silverlight

[LiENUS]

But this irrational hatred of Silverlight is a bit beyond me. Big fucking deal, at least it's attempting to become a competitor of Adobe Flash. Competition spurs innovation and all that jazz. Great yes I totally agree Competition to flash would be great. The problem with this is Microsofts idea of competition is to do everything they can to crush the competition then let features stagnate. They aren't happy with having 50% of the market its 95% or higher or they'll abuse their monopoly till they have 95% of the market. You want to compete fairly? how quaint well we're going to change the plugin structure for IE to break features you depend on and include our replacement. Or maybe theyl'l help you out and include your format with windows along with their own. Oh wait you want a current version included like their version? Too bad they're going to include their own proprietary version of your format that is 4 versions behind.

Re:Silverlight

[arotenbe]

Is their a open source implementation of the viewer? Yes. It's called Moonlight, and it's the project that is developing the implementation for Linux. Microsoft is currently working with (or at least tolerating giving information to) Novell to help develop the runtime faster. Look it up on Wikipedia for more information.

Re:Silverlight

[TrancePhreak]

Silverlight is NOT Windows only.
http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight/downloads.aspx
http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

Re:Silverlight

[Stormwatch]

It's not as flashy as Flash. Frankly, I'd count that as a positive trait...

Re:Silverlight

[Anonymous Coward]

The core is but Silverlight can easily make direct use of Windows API calls. MS will go out of their way to make impure Silverlight use the norm. This thing is a trojan horse to needing Windows to use the web.

You are misinformed. Silverlight apps have a very specific set of APIs exposed to them - they are all documented and all accessible on every platform. Frankly, this is necessary to keep the security surface limited. Silverlight really is Microsoft's attempt to create a cross-platform browser extension that works everywhere. Not only does it work on Linux and Mac it also works on Firefox on all three platforms. If you want a version for another platform, go for it.

The only side-effect I can imagine they are going for is that the similarity between silverlight apps and avalon apps leading to more developers being capable of developing avalon (windows) apps.

Re:Silverlight

[quanticle]

The issue with Moonlight is that its patent encumbered, and the only vendor that Microsoft has a licensing agreement with is Novell. While they've indicated that they don't intend to sue users of Moonlight even if they don't use Novell Linux, they haven't entered into any soft of legally binding covenant and could go back on that decision at any time. Therefore, unless you use Novell Linux, you have nothing other than Microsoft's word protecting you from a patent infringement lawsuit if you use Moonlight.

Re:Silverlight

[ashridah]

Well, given that information is increasingly audio/visual based and less textual-based, ideally, we want *something* that lets us play it online. Silverlight, Flash, whatever. If it's just an interface to whatever the content is, and you can still get access to the library in other means... uh. Big deal?

Silverlight does have some platform dependence issues, since it doesn't yet run easily on linux, but it does have Windows, Mac and probably WinCE. Of course, for the time being, I suspect things like the iphone will lose out, but depending on popularity, silverlight will probably reach those platforms eventually.

Re:Silverlight

[that this is not und]

Okay, okay. So there's a vapourware release for non-Windows platforms.

That should suffice.

Err...

Re:Silverlight

[that this is not und]

I call bullshit. I just went to that link and this machine I use for web viewing is a flash unsupported platform. The page looks perfectly good.

Re:Silverlight

[tenco]

But this irrational hatred of Silverlight is a bit beyond me. Big fucking deal, at least it's attempting to become a competitor of Adobe Flash. Competition spurs innovation and all that jazz.
It's another proprietary "standard" crippling the web. BTW, i hate Flash equally.

Re:Silverlight

[twistedcubic]

Silverlight is NOT Windows only.

Yes it is. Thank you.

Re:Silverlight

[statusbar]

So my friend should have no problems installing moonlight on his iPhone or iPod touch then?

--jeffk++

Re:Silverlight

[TrancePhreak]

If those were open platforms, then yes. Since we live in reality where they are very closed, then probably not. Or at least not officially.

Re:Silverlight

[Anonymous Coward]

look up "promissory estoppel" some time

Unproven Technology

[nurb432]

Aside from vendor lock-in, this product is far too new to be relying on like this.

Re:Unproven Technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but it's Microsoft. All of their products are flawless upon launch. Just look at the perfect launches of XP and Vista, neither had any issues whatsoever.

Re:Unproven Technology

[Maxmin]

Particularly when you realize just how fickle Microsoft is with its own "yup invented here" technology.

If Silverlight don't shine, Microsoft may drop it, like they have so many other technologies they've created from a "yeah we can beat XX with our own incompatible version" business strategy (substitute "Flash" for "XX" in this case.)

Re:Unproven Technology

[Maxmin]

Ooh, and if anyone took a look at www.myloc.gov, you'd notice it is, indeed, a Flash site. Hmm.

Re:Unproven Technology

[redcaboodle]

Ooh, and if anyone took a look at www.myloc.gov, you'd notice it is, indeed, a Flash site. Hmm. No, it's not. It's a HTML site with a flash banner not necessary for navigation or content which can be safely ignored.

Re:Unproven Technology

[Maxmin]

So what's better, tying yourself to a brand-spankin'-new, unproven technology, one that's still under development, and still released as "beta" -despite being labeled "version 2.0"- and requires downloads even for users of the latest MS o/s?

Or, stick with Flash, a technology that's been around for a decade, whose download size is still around one meg after all these years? Has tons of open-source projects around it, even open-source releases of the player technology? Think MS's OSP is gonna allow anything similar to take root around silverlight, and you're a sucker.

They're gonna be working on that thing for years. Every time you visit a "Silverlight-enabled" site, time to top off by downloading the latest patch release. And, ooops, what happens when a Microsoft Silverlight security hole is reported - your machine is now compromised, lucky you!

But here's the real barometer: Flash runs just about everywhere. Microsoft's put out versions with (buggy) compatibiliy for Safari and Opera. How long is the company that is anti-everything-but-Microsoft gonna support versions for these platforms? My prediction: the infamously fickle Microsoft will drop support for the lesser browsers within a year - that's their modus operandi.

Oh, and, whoops - Flash supports Linux, Microsoft's Silverlight don't. Mono doesn't count, they're still working on making SL 1.1 run.

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Proof that Microsoft is into open standards. I guess all their talk over the past few days wasn't just bullshit.

The LoC better make sure they dont make a profit selling gift shop junk or they could get sued.

It is estimated that the print holdings of the Library of Congress would, if digitized and stored as plain text, constitute 17 to 20 terabytes of information.

Or 200 terabytes in MS formats.

Re:wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you still here? Haven't those voices in your head driven you insane yet, Poopyhead you moron.

You do realise you're making a complete dick of yourself every time you post these inane diatribes, correct?

Re:Wow

[man_of_mr_e]

Please, explain which open standard provides the same functionality as silverlight or flash.

There are none.

Re:Wow

[LeadSongDog]

There are lots of ways to get a EULA dialog box on which to click "Decline" Is there some other Flash or Silverlight functionality that matters?

So?

[Anonymous Coward]

So when things break, they can get the standard, RTFM? response that seems typical (albiet a sterotype) of the OSS community? Or they can pick up the phone can call MS, who does not wish to tarnish a reputation by letting the LOC down. That would be some reallllllly bad publicity. I'm not saying that MS and Silverlight are the answer, but having accountable support (for what it may be worth) is a nice ace to have in your pocket. It sure beats the atypical RTFM.

Don't use /. enough to warrant an account.

Re:So?

[IBBoard]

Or they could do it with (amongst others and just as big names I know): Google, Redhat, Novell, Canonical and dozens of other companies who are FOSS and provide paying customers with support.

It isn't just proprietary, closed-source companies who offer support.

Re:So?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Bad publicity? Like when MS bought HotMail? Replaced the Free Software with their own stuff, and the site failed under the load? Not like this would be the first time, for sure...

Re:So?

[ScrewMaster]

Or they could do it with (amongst others and just as big names I know): Google, Redhat, Novell, Canonical and dozens of other companies who are FOSS and provide paying customers with support.

Yes, and more to the point, this is the Federal Government we're talking about here, with the resources to hire the right people and provide in-house support if it really needed to do so. The need for support is simply not a deciding factor in this case ... the GP doesn't have the bigger picture. Honestly, the Feds would be far better off coming up with their own solution to the problem: hire somebody really good to lay out the system and then build a staff to maintain and improve it. In the long run, they'll end up with a system that will do what they want, not what Microsoft tells them they want, and serves the needs of We the People.

It isn't just proprietary, closed-source companies who offer support.

Not only offer it, but in Red Hat's case it's their bread-and-butter.

Re:So?

[timmarhy]

so why didn't google or redhat offer to do it? OSS crowd hypocrite much?

Re:So?

[hxnwix]

I'm not saying that MS and Silverlight are the answer, but having accountable support (for what it may be worth) is a nice ace to have in your pocket. It sure beats the atypical RTFM Fortunately, your complaints do not apply as (1) IBM, Red Hat and a multitude of other respected, competent companies support open source software (2) many of Silverlight's viable competitors, although they have some support in the open source world, are generally closed solutions supported by the companies that develop them.

Ever heard of Flash?

Re:So?

[Anpheus]

Eh? You're accusing the Federal Government of being competent in its hiring and deployment practices with regard to information technology?

Sheesh, Bush is going to be in international war crimes court before they get convicted of that.

Re:So?

[jd]

That would be fair, if Microsoft's tech support did anything more than an RTFM themselves. They're notorious for overcharging, working from scripts, ignoring issues, blaming customers... Anybody who buys a software product for tech support and accountability are fools. Tech support is an illusion and accountability is deniable under law. There is nobody you can sue or hold legally responsible. Free and OSS is no worse, from that perspective, but are more honest about it.

Re:So?

[ScrewMaster]

I didn't say they would, just that they could. Hell, if they just hired a half-dozen of the brighter Slashdotters they'd end up with a better solution than anything Microsoft would throw at them.

Re:So?

[mattpalmer1086]

No kidding! I work at a reasonably well known, public-facing organization with a publicized relationship with Microsoft. We had a few support calls with Microsoft in the last year. All of their staff were polite and professional - but they just didn't seem to understand their own products (or even our problem, for quite some time).

Trying to resolve a bug in Active Directory proved to be impossible - their network guys kept asking us to do the same-old, and their .NET guys kept asking different same-old, but they didn't seem to talk to each other Going. Round. In. Circles. In the end, none of the problems were resolved, despite us figuring out where the problem lay and telling them on several occasions. So we coded around their bug (now resurfacing in another third-party product!) but hey, we had support! Tick!

Re:So?

[Count Fenring]

Dood. This hit Cory Doctorow TODAY. I don't think it's valid to say that none of the OSS companies capable of doing this wouldn't step up, given the chance.

Also, as one of the issues here is Microsoft trying to use a donation to dictate LOC policy, perhaps it is to their credit that none of them have tried to use donations of software/hardware to influence government policy?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

good god the OS Migration of Hotmail was what, a decade ago! Get over it.
Gmail, Twitter, Facebook.... all on non MS platforms, all suffer from falling over.
Hotmail on an MS platform also suffers
Guess what.... most platforms have problems

Re:So?

[man_of_mr_e]

Ummm.. that's an urban myth, based entirely on one article which listed "anonymous sources". Some stuff just doesn't seem to die.

Locked up?

[Bryan Ischo]

Can someone explain to me where the term "locked up" applies to this news article? I read the (very brief) article linked to - and didn't see how anything in the library would become 'locked up', which I assume to mean, available only to people using Windows software. Yeah, they're going to accept some 'donations' of OS's and stuff (so Microsoft spends $10 burning a bunch of CDs and calls it a multi-million-dollar donation, with all the relevent tax perks as well - why does the government let them get away with this?) for their new kiosks (which if my experience with Windows kiosks is anything to go by, will be sitting at a blue screen or an empty Windows desktop 50% of the time), but how does this equal anything being 'locked up'?

Re:Locked up?

[LiENUS]

The concern is over the use of Silverlight for the website. Silverlight as of yet does not have a end-user ready version for several operating systems, including free ones such as Linux. There is however a Moonlight project by the Mono guys to bring Silverlight to those operating systems.

Re:Locked up?

[Eddy Luten]

Because the government also knows, that the cost and value of a product doesn't lie in its carrier. E.g.: The value of the United States' Constitution isn't $1.00 simply because it's written on a sheet of parchment with cheap ink.

Re:Locked up?

[NekoIncardine]

The way it's treated these days, it's not that much higher than that anymore.

Re:Locked up?

[Eddy Luten]

That would only bring down the value of the current Government, not of the foundation it is built upon.

Re:Locked up?

[Bryan Ischo]

Thank you very much, that answers my question. I didn't know what 'Silverlight' was but now that you've explained it to me I can see what the problem is.

Re:Locked up?

[linumax]

Firstly, I happily use Silverlight on Leopard, no problems at all, but don't know the status of Moonlight on GNU/Linux.

Secondly, I'm just wondering, is there a clause in the deal with MS that prohibits LoC from presenting same information in any other format or

Google or any other honest company can also join in and provide the similar service in an open format? Like say, when you go to www.myloc.gov and wanna see a book/item, you get to choose:

• Silverlight
• Flash
• JPEG

In case MS gets any sort of ruling power on how myloc.gov is run then that's something to worry about.


PS: "honest company"? What does that even mean?!!

Re:Locked up?

[cmacb]

That term may in fact be hyperbolic, depending on what they actually use it for. On the other hand I've worked with government IT people who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and with government IT consultants who did know their ass from a hole in the ground (but still didn't know anything about IT).

They (the two groups above) do dumb-ass things like store archival documents in Word format, and then when they discover that new versions of Word won't read them, load old versions of Word, print the documents, scan them back in using "Acrobat" scanners that convert the documents to pictures and poorly OCRed text.

These people need to be protected from shooting themselves, and taxpayers in the foot when ten years down the road they find again that they have lost all backups and have only the data in these kiosks to go from (not saying this is the plan, just saying that given the players, stranger things have happened).

Microsoft is ferociously promoting Silverlight as an alternative to just about everything, but somehow with all their billions, they haven't had a chance yet to port it to other OSs. I find this very suspect. As a new product, minus all the baggage that comes with Windows and Office, this would be a perfect opportunity for full and open specs, plus at least prototype implementations in all the major OSs, Open Source, and all. So far though, it looks like just another wedge product to get people into the mindset that you just HAVE to run Windows to operate in the modern world.

Don't buy that concept.

Re:Locked up?

[Vexorian]

Firstly, I happily use Silverlight on Leopard, no problems at all,

Until MS disposes otherwise.

Re:Locked up?

[AltecZZ]

Since when was Google honest?

Of course, since this is Slashdot, everything Google does is good, and everything Microsoft does is bad.

Re:Locked up?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then what is the point of using Silverlight at all?

Re:Locked up?

[AdamReyher]

You know, header checking does work. If whoever browses the site doesn't have Silverlight, prompt them to download. If they're on an unsupported OS (at this point), display standard HTML content. It's really not that difficult, and I can't imagine the LoC is going Silverlight exclusively.

Re:Locked up?

[stubear]

"PS: "honest company"? What does that even mean?!!"

It's any company your typical Slashbot has approved for use by the "unwashed masses". You should be thanking our cute little superhero wannabes.

Re:Locked up?

[feenberg]

For donations of self-constructed assets MS only gets to deduct the basis - in this case it would be $10. The real problem here is the imposition by the government that citizens buy a particular brand of software to use what should be generally available services. If our government stopped emailing/posting .doc files that would be greater contribution to competition than anything the Anti-trust division could do.

Re:Locked up?

[LinuxDon]

Quote: "There is however a Moonlight project by the Mono guys to bring Silverlight to those operating systems."

It isn't usable at this point, it isn't even included in Gentoo (or any other distro).
I looked at installing it, but the install procedures were so complex (involves lots of patches) that I didn't bother. It would take me at least a few hours to install it and I have 10+ years of Linux experience and Mono already installed. Also, Moonlight is incompatible with some MS Demo applet's.

So basically, Silverlight support for Linux is non-existent at this point except for the most determined user.

However, Mono is amazingly compatible with C#/.net, so this gives some good hope for Moonlight in the future. Even though it might just be a matter of time before MS does a 180 again and screws everyone...

Honest?

[Anonymous Coward]

So Google is deemed "honest" by virtue of simply NOT being Microsoft?

Re:Honest?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's an honest question. Google has not been "evil" to the extent that Microsoft has, but it seems like people here give them a free pass. Google benefits from and actively encourages domain parking, which I think most of us agree is one of the sleaziest "businesses" on the web. Again, that's nothing compared to what Microsoft has done, but that doesn't mean it's nothing.

Marketing

[Eddy Luten]

I know what comments are coming up but I will have to admit that this was a pretty clever marketing move to expose Silverlight.

Re:Marketing

[weicco]

And very bad summary from Slashdot. Silverlight and Perl is like JavaScript and PHP, apples and oranges.

Sneaky devils

[Bananatree3]

By giving a grant to the largest library in the Land, they strongarm the LoC into remaking their website to be the next promo for Microsoft's proposed Flash-killer. And in the spirit of accessability, they force all visitors to download silverlight, because they couldn't use the currently-dominent Flash.

Go figure :/

Alternatives

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't we (the nerds and geeks, aka people who actually use libraries) just construct a website for the LoC and give it to them say it's "worth 3 million". true, we may not be able to supply hardware, but surely something can be done on the software end.

Re:Alternatives

[pipatron]

If we nerds and geeks codes it, it'll run on any old P2 they have around in the basement awaiting destruction.

Not enough information

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, why don't people link directly to the source article? The link on BoingBoing provides absolutely nothing of value. That being said, the source article is lacking any kind of useful details. There is not enough information available to draw the usual, predictable conclusion Slashdotters would like to. It sounds like they are just going to install Vista-based kiosks in the LoC and launch a new website based on Silverlight. I don't care about the kiosks, and while the website might be cause for concern worse things have happened. I still say we need more information to make an informed decision. Oh wait, I forgot: this is Slashdot. COMMENCE WITH THE KNEE JERKING!

Re:Silverlight - it's actually illegal!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's actually illegal to remove Section 508 compliance from a government website (hence why many of them suck so much)... and Silverlight, true to typical usages of it, will break that compliance in a big way. So Microsoft (and LOC's move) may actually be illegal depending on how it's implemented. I would hope that Cory, or anybody who has some sway, will realize this and call them on it.

I actually make an effort (have since 1996) to design every one of my sites I run to be complaint (as much as possible) with section 508 Handicap Web Accessibility rules. I used to use Bobby at CAST to do some preliminary checks. I'm actually appalled how many of the sites out there are broken on those simple accounts (table nesting, bad CSS and not ALT tags), and now even thinking about compliance on mobile browsers (iPhone, Palm, Windows Mobile, Symbian, etc.) that these sites also suffer from in accessibility.

LOC website = horrible

[Raul654]

As I noted on Slashdot recently, the library of congress website is possibly the most dysfunctional site on the internet. If you ever browse their collections, it's literally impossible to get a permanent URL (which makes it incredibly difficult to copy their public domain stuff to Wikipedia - all the URLs to confirm the copyright status break after an hour) What's even worse, it feels like somebody spent a lot of my taxpayer money to put together something that is functionally useless.

Re:LOC website = horrible

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree - that's why I use a copy here: http://popartmachine.com/catalog/

Silverlight on Linux

[jdh28]

Silverlight is planned for Linux: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070507-mono-developers-to-bring-silverlight-to-linux.html

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Pichu0102]

That's not the point. The point is that it's a Microsoft controlled format, and Microsoft has a track record of continually updating their software, which in turns, often ends up breaking compatibility with free implementations of said software, making it a game a perpetual catch-up to be able to read their formats. Not to mention, this is a government website, which shouldn't be forcing people to use a certain operating system just to view their website.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[webmaster404]

The first step of MS's strategy is always embrace....

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[HappySmileMan]

No Moonlight is planned for Linux, which will always be behind Silverlight, because Microsoft won't give them the specs until AFTER each new release of Silverlight, which could mean months of cathup after every Silverlight release. And there's no guarantee that Microsoft will continue giving them these specs.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

moonlight & mono and you are evil!

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[LiENUS]

No Moonlight is planned for Linux, which will always be behind Silverlight, because Microsoft won't give them the specs until AFTER each new release of Silverlight, which could mean months of cathup after every Silverlight release. And there's no guarantee that Microsoft will continue giving them these specs. I don't think this is entirely accurate. In the future possibly but as of right now the Mono guys actually have quite a good relationship with Microsoft. They regularly communicate with Microsoft developers so once moonlight gets caught up they should be able to stay in sync with Silverlight until Microsoft decides they've had enough and cuts them off.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[harlows_monkeys]

No Moonlight is planned for Linux, which will always be behind Silverlight, because Microsoft won't give them the specs until AFTER each new release of Silverlight, which could mean months of cathup after every Silverlight release

So? You think sites using Silverlight are going to immediately upgrade to each new version, and immediately start using features that aren't in the old version? That's not what happens in the real world. What happens is that it takes sites months or years to decide to go to the new version of this kind of thing, which will give Moonlight plenty of time to catch up.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Raul654]

Yea, it's funny how Microsoft is cooperative with third party developers when they are losing, trying to catch up to a dominant format (Flash). Let's say they succeed in overtaking Flash, and Silverlight becomes the dominant format for interactive applets. How long do you think Microsoft will continue to aid the linux developers? I give 'em 5 minutes, tops.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[node 3]

Well, to be fair, one is *supposed* to "embrace and extend" their own formats. The problem is when MS embraces some open standard, then extends it in a way that breaks the actual *open* version of the standard.

This is still a bad idea, but not because of "embrace and extend".

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[LiENUS]

Yea, it's funny how Microsoft is cooperative with third party developers when they are losing, trying to catch up to a dominant format (Flash). Let's say they succeed in overtaking Flash, and Silverlight becomes the dominant format for interactive applets. How long do you think Microsoft will continue to aid the linux developers? I give 'em 5 minutes, tops. I won't disagree with this statement but I would like to add that the Microsoft developers I have spoken with that are communicating with Mono developers seem genuinely interested in assisting the Mono guys. I just hope they are able to continue the relationship after Microsoft has what it wants. But I don't expect them to be able to.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has a track record of continually updating their software, which in turns, often ends up breaking compatibility with free implementations of said software, making it a game a perpetual catch-up to be able to read their formats.

Hell, it breaks compatibility with Microsoft software, too! Ask anyone who has spent long, boring hours reformatting .doc files for the latest version of Office.

Which kinda explains how they will get their $3M back. "Gee, it doesn't work with our new Silverlight? Yeah, we'll be glad to come in and fix it, but we gotta charge now." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Like any drug dealer on the street: the first one's free!

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[asamad]

Sounds like when M$ was in bed with IBM helping them with OS/2...

They were ever so helpful :) until they did not need to be

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[HappySmileMan]

I won't disagree with this statement but I would like to add that the Microsoft developers I have spoken with that are communicating with Mono developers seem genuinely interested in assisting the Mono guys. I just hope they are able to continue the relationship after Microsoft has what it wants. But I don't expect them to be able to. That's the problem, most of Microsofts developers probably don't have a problem helping other developers. But the developers don't make the desicions, the businessmen do, adn the businessmen don't give a shit about anything except how much money they can make by screwing people over.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[TheNetAvenger]

Actually that is NOT the point either.

What is the most horrible thing that could be? Gasp, the UI is built by Microsoft technology? Would you be more happy with Flash Instead? You simply can't do as light or rich UI without a technology like Silverlight unless you buy into Adobe and Flash, which still has many parts undocumented, in contrast to Silverlight.

Silverlight also implies two things.
1) The images will all be part of the new JPEG standard(See Microsoft HD Photo approved as Next JPEG Standard)
2) The video will also be a standard, VC-1.

What would you rather have content stored in?

These are 'the' two leading standards of the day with the expection of MPEG4 which doesn't perform as well as VC1 and there are additional licensing issues with real MPEG4 content.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they should have gone for Flash, which is ... controled by Adobe. This is just another "OMG it's Microsoft, it is bad!" article.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Gideon Fubar]

Or when they helped SEGA develop the Dreamcast, including it's oh-so-unbreakable copy protection system.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[LiENUS]

Microsoft did very little to help Sega develop the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast was built of parts from SEGA, Hitachi, ARM and NEC. Sure SEGA licensed Windows CE for the Dreamcast but very few games actually used Windows CE.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[JoeCommodore]

Obviously you are new to using MS products in a mixed environment:

- Microsoft provides a version of X for Mac and/or other platform (case in point MS made for Macs: MS Project, Outlook, FoxPRO, Windows Media Player, Office VBA, Internet Explorer, Virtual PC, Frontpage, Fight Simulator, etc).

- Updates usually go to windows versions first, but due to "technical problems" (or something similar) X version does not always receive all of the updates.

- Second generation of product comes out employing some more Windows-only exclusive technology - the version for platform X is kind of crappier and not compatible (no explanation just some short "use Applescript instead" for the missing features).

- MS announces that the X version of the software will be discontinued due to lack of 'customer interest' (more so on MSs part)

- MS touts how great they are at supporting multiple platforms on their next product... (repeat)

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Smoke2Joints]

What would you rather have content stored in?

plain text? xml? pdf?
at least give us the option of these formats as well as their shitty silverlight frontend.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Frosty Piss]

See Microsoft HD Photo approved as Next JPEG Standard

For those who are interested:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/02/microsofts-hd-photo-picked-to-succeed-jpeg/

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Shados]

Except the Linux version isn't maintained by Microsoft. AND even if it was, the web technologies development team at Microsoft is quite different from most of their other teams... (Many of them rave about Firefox and MAC OSX on their blogs for one...)

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Gideon Fubar]

i'll take your word for it.. I was under the impression that Windows CE was the base OS for the console (as in, used by everything), which i realize is kinda odd for a games console, at least back then.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[leabre]

Library of Congress already uses a fair amount of Flash so choosing Silverlight really isn't a stretch. But I don't see people complaining about the amount of Flash being used by Library of Congress. There are things that both Flash and Silverlight can do that standard (X)HTML/AJAX will be hard pressed to accomplish as naturally. The beauty about Silverlight is that it doesn't have to be Vista or XP as a platform, Silverlight can be hosted on Linux and OS X also.

But I think the greater point in everyones ranting is that Microsoft paid and Congress accepted and will be leveraging the new platform for a specific purpose. A purpose for which the Silverlight platform is intended to address.

Thanks,
Leabre

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

When Yahoo has turned to silverlight for everything and Flash (even, perhaps HTML) gets eventually driven out of the marketplace, Microsoft will add some nice patented features to it as well as DRM and there will be no free implementations. And they'll likely patent features that would allow third parties to even index silverlight sites. Of course, things like Flash and Silverlight are every online marketer's wet dream - a nice way to enforce your looking at splash screens and ads as you visit their sites.

Sigh, feeling just a bit cynical today.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Mongoose Disciple]

Get started on converting those videos to plain text or XML then. I'll wait. :)

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[macshit]

So is HD photo any good or not? I've done some google searching, but it seems kind of hard to find good technical discussion of it.

The Microsoft attempt at an HD format called "scRGB", discussed in Greg Ward's nice write up on HDR encodings from a few years ago, was truly awful.

I rather hope HD photo is better (or even, dare to dream, good), but knowing MS, I have nagging feeling they just put a pretty wrapper around the same old crappy scRGB format, made a spiffy logo, and increased their lobbying budget...

Unfortunately, what google has turned up does seem to suggest that the HDR representation in HD photo is indeed just (crappy) scRGB.... :-(

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[JoeCommodore]

Except the Linux version isn't maintained by Microsoft.

Understood. So it has no MS support then, and under the IP/FUD shadow of MS as well, so Linux/Silverlight doesn't make a great platform to rely on eh?

AND even if it was, the web technologies development team at Microsoft is quite different from most of their other teams...

Heard the same about the FoxPro guys, also the Mac Office Team both of which had ther day for a while but are no more. It may be that way now for Mac Silverlight, but those guys are the proverbial 'nails sticking out' at Windows-first Microsoft, they'll be hammered back into the woodwork eventually.

(Many of them rave about Firefox and MAC OSX on their blogs for one...)

Blogs don't make executive decisions. Balmer does.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Frenchman113]

These are 'the' two leading standards of the day with the expection of MPEG4 which doesn't perform as well as VC1 and there are additional licensing issues with real MPEG4 content.

Whoa there, Cowboy. H.264/AVC is part of MPEG-4 and it is easily more efficient than VC-1. Careful with your Microsoft-flavor Kool-Aid.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[twistedcubic]

Yes, they should have gone for Flash, which is ... controled by Adobe. This is just another "OMG it's Microsoft, it is bad!" article.

Don't know about you, but I've been reading Slashdot for years, and I don't recall much love being thrown at Adobe Flash. I think the Slashdot consensus is they both suck.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like they dropped Office right? Oh wait, at least one product is still there.

Your an idiot. With the exception of IE, Microsoft supported Mac for those products when Macs had close to 10% of the business/education market and dropped them when they dropped below 4%. Gee what a suprise, dropping support for a niche market.

Now that Mac use is growing you will see more MS support for OS X with the exception of IE because the browser market is mature enough that there is no reason to make IE for OS X. It would be a waste of money.

And did you happen to notice that Silverlight was in production when they stopped making Windows Media Player for Mac? Why? I don't know maybe because Silverlight supports all the WM codecs? So they fully support they codecs on OS X.

If most people would spend 5 minutes finding out what Silverlight is, they would find that it is a lot more than MS's answer to flash.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[JoeCommodore]

Just like they dropped Office right? Oh wait, at least one product is still there.

They dropped Outlook form it years back and pout in Entourage which only connects to Exchange through the web channel (not totally compatible) and now they dropped VBA for applications (hence the 'use AppleScript' quote in my earlier post, which is what they recommend, I wonder if Office for Windows even supports Applescript?), so much for support/compatibility with the Windows world, eh?

Your an idiot. With the exception of IE, Microsoft supported Mac for those products when Macs had close to 10% of the business/education market and dropped them when they dropped below 4%. Gee what a surprise, dropping support for a niche market.

Thank you. Actually, that is my point exactly, MS sees non-windows platforms as a "idiots" or a "niche market," and has and will mess with everyone in in them to bolster their profits. Frankly I gave up on MS as a company that will 'support' anyone but frequently paying customers.

Now that Mac use is growing you will see more MS support for OS X with the exception of IE because the browser market is mature enough that there is no reason to make IE for OS X. It would be a waste of money.

But there is reason for MS to keep their tools/web services to be more IE friendly.

And did you happen to notice that Silverlight was in production when they stopped making Windows Media Player for Mac? Why? I don't know maybe because Silverlight supports all the WM codecs? So they fully support they codecs on OS X.

from the Silverlight FAQ => Will Silverlight support all the codecs Windows Media Player supports?

> Since Silverlight is a lightweight cross-platform technology, it only carries the most common codices that are needed for Web playback. However, we are gathering information from customers about the needed codices and can update Silverlight when necessary.

So to answer your response it probably still does not support the DRM codecs that are missing from the alternative Windows player for the Mac.

If most people would spend 5 minutes finding out what Silverlight is, they would find that it is a lot more than MS's answer to flash.

Well I've spent over 20 years dealing with Microsoft solutions, limited compatibility, and eventual cleanup after they eventually drop they ball. I didn't need to do five minutes of research on my original post. I saw all that stuff come and go (much of which we bought too), and I think its just another eventual dead-end MS technology which will lead to MS offering another dead-end replacement further along.

Open standards have an excellent chance of breaking that, and I see that as the real long term solution.

Thanks for your opinion, uh... Mr. Anonymous Coward.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[TheNetAvenger]

You are kidding right?

plain text? - Ok, fine then pick a standard ACSII, UTF-8, UTF-16, etc... People will still bitch.
xml? - That is what silverlight uses for crying out loud.
pdf? - And the images are STORED as JPG or TIFF once again. The same freaking result.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[TheNetAvenger]

You are looking back at an early HDR concept (something still somewhat new to digital imaging).

There are several technical specification documents on the MS HD format. It offers a lot in one format that we don't have, and some things that don't exist in any format. I don't have quick links for you, but do some more searching or even search microsoft.com and you will find the details you seek.

It can drop back to same quality size levels as current JPG, do better compression with virtually no visual difference, handle HDR, handle RAW transfer for cameras to drop data from the cmos to the storage device faster. So you get both good losey and non-losey storage, etc...

It is worth the read, as it has some interesting aspects that would replace TIFF in addition to GIF, PNG and JPEG because it handles the different features of all these formats...

I can't say it is going to be the end all to be all, but for now it is the most complete and interesting.

Re:Silverlight on Linux

[TheNetAvenger]

But I think the greater point in everyones ranting is that Microsoft paid and Congress accepted and will be leveraging the new platform for a specific purpose. A purpose for which the Silverlight platform is intended to address.


It is a tit/tat situation, true. However, this is the case of industry and technology, people didn't complain when Apple gave schools money and computers in mass numbers to get their product into the mainstream. It was a win win for Apple, the schools, and kids getting a chance to see use new technology at the time.

Also if MS blows the Silverlight implementation, it will be egg on their face and Silverlight in general. And if MS shows non-MS people how empowering Silverlight is or advantages it can give developers, then it will again be a win win win, for MS, LoC, Developers, and users looking up content.

Would people be happier if the LoC paid Adobe 10 million to develop it for them in flash, getting money and free stuff isn't always evil, right?

Another 50 Years

[buravirgil]

This country's hypocrisies are a persistent, petty and subtle agenda of a few, tired dying people. The LoC was never the people's library in practice so much as a promise...folk recordings represented that promise crying out from a stubborn reality that not everbody can afford to make a trip to D.C., stay at a hotel, and view the library's contents.

And the internet was going to change that...and dying, dying dying Micro$oft steps in to handle the bottleneck.

Not for another 50 years now will the promise of the LoC be realized because somebody's daddy is somebody's daddy in America

Re:Another 50 Years

[Moonpie Madness]

SO TRUE!

I remember actually going to the library of congress, and they refused to allow me in. Why? Because I didn't actually have anything specific to research... I just wanted to check out what the library had to offer, browse around, read a book or two. Of course I waited five minutes and invented a research topic, but nonetheless it's absurd not to allow me, a taxpayer access to my library.

Bureaucracy.

It's the website, not the kiosks

[l2718]

how does this equal anything being 'locked up'?

The donations of the kiosks don't lock up anything. But making the website depend on a media format that is not a common web standard and is furthermore specific to Microsoft risks a situation where the only way to get the full functionality of the LoC website would be to install Internet Explorer.

Re:It's the website, not the kiosks

[LiENUS]

But making the website depend on a media format that is not a common web standard and is furthermore specific to Microsoft risks a situation where the only way to get the full functionality of the LoC website would be to install Internet Explorer. I know its a bit pedantic but is "risks" really an appropriate term to use? I think that "hopes to achieve" would be a better description of whats going on.

Re:It's the website, not the kiosks

[man_of_mr_e]

You do realize that Silverlight works on Firefox too, and Opera and Safari. It will also work on Firefox, Konqueror, etc... on Linux too via moonlight.

News story from January

[93 Escort Wagon]

I hate to pick on Slashdot (okay, no I don't) - but this was "news" back in mid-January.

I'll be curious to see how this plays out. Currently the LOC uses a lot of Flash. After reading the article (the one I linked above, not the non-informative blog post in this /. "story") it sounds like the LOC will be using Silverlight in a specific, probably limited, fashion. It'd be nice to get more information, though. From what little information is available, it's possible that MS proposed this as a new project - adding content, not replacing current LOC web materials.

In any case it seems like a silly thing to do unless there's something Silverlight does that Flash doesn't do (given that the LOC site already uses Flash). Plus Silverlight currently doesn't include accessibility support, which to my mind would make it a non-starter for a government website.

Re:News story from January

[orin]

As several other posts have pointed out, Silverlight does include accessibility support: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb980136.aspx

Accesibility Standards?

[Sweetwater]

I'm not sure about Silverlight's ability to conform to accessibility standards. Are not all American Government websites required to be accessible? I mean, I know a site can have different entry points for different browsers and accessibility levels, but doesn't this seem very counter productive?

Re:Accesibility Standards?

[Shados]

Its probably EASIER to make a site accessible for the disabled using Flash, Silverlight, fucking ActiveX, whatever, than with straight XHTML/CSS. The former technologies have the features built in, and can more reliably interact with screen readers and whatsnot. Of course, the little 5 minutes 2 cent demos you see if you google for Silverlight don't use it, but its fairly simple. And definately easier to learn than the very simple, but incredibly numerous details you need to think about in XHTML for the disabled.

Re:Accesibility Standards?

[BrentH]

The idea here is that with proper (x)html and css the enduser can decide how the content is viewed, not you the webdisgner. Provided the end user can parse the (x)html into something he/she can understand (with textreaders or large fonts or braille readers), the user can always use the content. With webdesigners using things like flash/silverlight the options an end user has are limited.

Re:Accesibility Standards?

[Shados]

xhtml/css can only be handled if the proper properties are set and the markup is semantic. Else you get the text, yes, but it wont make any sense. The idea is with other technologies, making the application semanticaly correct is easier. They also provide more tools to give more info for the reader to parse.

Also keep in mind that Silverlight 1.0 is still just markup, and can be parsed the same way, at the worse.

Re:Accesibility Standards?

[Sweetwater]

I don't know if I can agree with it being easier. While there is facilities to do so (using Flash as my reference), reading over the Flash 8 Accessibility Design Guidelines documentation from Adobe has provided some interesting results. A lot of these things are the same as practices used in (x)html/css and I don't know if one would perform better than the other. What I do know is that if a site is designed with accessibility in mind, everyone wins. It is very apparent that the designer/developer MUST be well informed/trained to get these issues resolved. As an example, I took a Flash 8 training course (at University) about a year ago, and accessibility was never mentioned. NOw this seems more like a problem with the school, but how many other courses and schools have the same issue? I think what it really comes down to is what your preferences are as a deployment platform, and how you can do the best job to get you product accessible to everyone. It is nice to finally know that these products do support some level of accessibility.

Money, bribery & Free software

[Yvanhoe]

If you're tired of seeing these things happening, support Lawrence Lessig's movement "Change Congress" and if you happen to vote in California 12th in the Congress elections, take a look. http://lessig08.org/

Bad decisions like this one are either caused by incompetence or economy of influence. Time to change congress!

Re:Money, bribery & Free software

[xant]

You bet. The minute he makes up his damn mind to run, I'm on the phone with my debit card out for a donation.

Re:Money, bribery & Free software

[Frosty Piss]

http://lessig08.org/

Blocked from the .gov domain I'm using...

myloc.gov

[Anonymous Coward]

last time i checked, loc.gov works just fine, no need to put the latest fad prefix on it.

(they should regester iloc.gov and eloc.gov just to be sure though!)

LOC Has no IT Staff...?

[BoRegardless]

No knowledge of open source?

No knowledge of the LONG TERM issues of proprietary data formats?

No knowledge of the lock in issues involved in mandating only one OS & hardware platform?

You think the LOC IT department can't read the publications it gets every month?

Re:LOC Has no IT Staff...?

[rucs_hack]

You make the mistake of assuming that they care about these issues.

No knowledge of open source?

No caring, possibly. You'd likely be amazed how many people don't even know Linux exists. Computers run Windows, or they are Macs. Then there are people who know, but see the Linux crowd as a bunch of techie extremists who are adverse to easy interfaces. (Emacs, I'm looking at you, yes I am).

No knowledge of the LONG TERM issues of proprietary data formats?

It's more likely that they don't see it as important. This may be dumb to us in the know, but they are more likely thinking that since they use Microsoft products, it makes sense to store their data in Microsoft formats.

No knowledge of the lock in issues involved in mandating only one OS & hardware platform?

Like it or not, to the great majority of PC users, there *is* only one OS and computer type. That's not going to change any time soon. Perhaps when Ubuntu goes mainstream in a big way things might start to change, but that won't be quick.

You think the LOC IT department can't read the publications it gets every month?

Don't know, but I'm pretty certain the guys they hire to maintain this stuff are not the people having dinner and playing golf with the Microsoft Reps and deciding strategy.

Re:LOC Has no IT Staff...?

[TrancePhreak]

Your comment makes it seem like you have no knowledge of open source.
http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

where's the disadvantage?

[__aaqvdr516]

In that case they are limiting the access to their records to those that are able to run Silverlight. Which is just about any computer that has an OS installed and is turned on....

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/development_tools/silverlight.html

It's just another piece of software that will need to be installed to access information. They haven't excluded anyone that I am aware of, unless you're still using a Commodore VIC-20.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's patent encumbered and not compatible with the GPL. It's not an open platform like HTML/CSS/JS etc. See this comment

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[burner]

Not every network-connected computing device is a desktop PC. Citizens with handhelds, rich-interface cell phones, and internet tables all should be able to access the information at the library of congress. Indeed, even users without access to install specialized plugins should have access.

There's really no need for silverlight here.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[stavros-59]

It's just another piece of software that will need to be installed to access information. They haven't excluded anyone that I am aware of, unless you're still using a Commodore VIC-20.
Access in 20 years is not guaranteed. Silverlight is proprietary. Micorosoft have made it accessible to other operating systems but ongoing accessibility is absolutely dependent on the whim of Microsoft maintaining the availability and leaving the format untouched.

In addition to libraries, many Records Management Systems in many Universities and public services are equally tied to proprietary formats.

What happens in 20 or 30 years. I can still read documents that are hundreds of years old that are on paper.

Microsoft's record in the past 20 years doesn't give me much confidence in their ongoing behaviours.

It also assumes that current storage media will stay the same or similar. In only the last 20 years, my 8" floppy disks have become redundant, cassette tapes are almost unusable now, some old computer tapes no longer have drives that can read them and on it goes.

This approach to important documents is so myopic, I find it difficult to believe that librarians and records management experts can't see that far ahead.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[baboo_jackal]

Access in 20 years is not guaranteed. Silverlight is proprietary. Micorosoft have made it accessible to other operating systems but ongoing accessibility is absolutely dependent on the whim of Microsoft maintaining the availability and leaving the format untouched.
I don't buy all this fearmongering. Silverlight is a freaking browser plugin. The books are still on the shelves in the library. Whatever content is being presented on the site (if the web developers are competent) is more or less separate from the presentation engine (Silverlight).

This decision by the Library of Congress does not "lock" anything under any sort of control by MS at all. If MS tries anything shady (which, by the way, they haven't in this case - most everyone has just speculated that they are), the LOC always has the option of dumping Silverlight for something else.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[FishWithAHammer]

And Flash is?

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[filbranden]

And Flash is?

Flash would be as inadequate as Silverlight for publishing information.

Silverlight is worse than Flash for several reasons. 1) It's from Microsoft, a company that has been known for introducing proprietary technologies to lock in people to their products. 2) It's a new, unstable and unproven technology; Flash at least has been around for many years now. 3) Silverlight seems to be patent encumbered, and it seems Microsoft will try to use it against free software and the GPL.

However, ultimately I believe that Silverlight will fail for the same reasons Flash failed. 10 years ago I remember that every single company was converting their websites to Flash. Every webdesigner at that time was versed at that technology and it was being pushed very strongly. At that time, the incompatibilities and bugs in implementations of HTML (introduced by... can you guess it? Of course! Microsoft's IE!) made a big case for starting to use Flash and have consistent look and feel among different browsers and platforms.

But now most companies are back to having HTML based websites, and using Flash sparingly, and not for publishing content. They realised that using Flash had many shortcomings, and that they would have to use HTML if they wanted to:

• Have search engines index their sites. In a world where most company websites are reached through Google, no company would want a Flash website that will never be reached because it's not properly indexed.
• Allow people to bookmark or link specific pages. In the blogging era this is very important, as bloggers want to point readers exactly to the page and snippet where the relevant information is. If a blogger starts to have to write instructions ("follow this link then click on 'Products' and then search for 'Name' and click on the tab for 'Data Sheet'"), they'll not link to you at all, and maybe even try to find the information from your competitors.
• Mashups. Same as before. Your content will only be usable if it's accessible.

The need for plugins is not longer the reason why people don't use Flash (and won't use Silverlight). When content is king, it has to be served in an open standardized format, that allows it to be accessed, indexed, linked and ultimately used. That's what the Web 1.0 was about, and the Web 2.0 kind of tried to bring these core ideas back, after technologies such as Flash were being misused for content publishing.

We've already been mistaken once. Are we going to do it again? I really hope not.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[tenco]

In that case they are limiting the access to their records to those that are able to run Silverlight. Which is just about any computer that has an OS installed and is turned on.... What about disabled people? How is Silverlight supported by screenreaders?

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[that this is not und]

Silverlight and Flash are both in the 'bad' column. It was good of you to remind us.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

However, ultimately I believe that Silverlight will fail for the same reasons Flash failed.

Are you serious? Flash is installed on 98% of all browsers!

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[dissy]

We can hope that when MS pulls their usual stunts, now that the LOC is dependant on it, the govt will seriously just revoke MS's IP rights to it, and if they dont comply with the LOC demands, revoke the microsoft corporation status.

They have the teeth, ability, and legal backing to do this.
The only question is, do they have the balls to?

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Serious Callers Only]

Which is just about any computer that has an OS installed and is turned on....

1. Why should I have to install software just to visit the records when there are free alternatives, available with no downloads, which will do just as well?
2. How long to you think the supposed cross-platform nature of Silverlight will last?
3. What's to stop MS making the Windows version better and leaving the others to rot, as they have done so many times in the past?

This is just another piece of software designed to lock in users to Windows long-term and subvert the web - that's the real answer to question 1 above, but one which MS doesn't want you to think through. Ask yourself why they are pushing this so hard right now, throwing money all over the place to get it installed, instead of AJAX, which they helped invent.

Thanks, but no thanks, I won't be installing it on any computer I own.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong on at least two points:

Flash IS indexable by search engines (an article from 2005)
and
Flash DOES support deep linking (2 seconds with the Goog...)

Haven't chased down the mashup argument yet.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Silverlight is a good start for a rich user experience web development API. Much of it is in the standardization process. It also has the advantage of being CPU load friendly and won't take over your computer like most every Flash page does.

While it currently uses limited formats for video, it has excellent transcoding tool support and the original doesn not have to be destroyed. Also, the HD formats appear to be more standard than the non-HD ones, so its future looks better.

This is certainly a better alternative than hand-coded AJAX. Who the hell is going to debug and maintain that?

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Lapsed Pacifist]

I think you are conflating Sliverlight and "the documents". Anyways, librarians are painfully aware of the ongoing issues re: media formats. Still, depending on the mandate of the library or archive, they mostly try to be responsive to the end-user's needs. It's a fun balancing act between budgetary constraints and the desire to archive everything possible.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[MobyDisk]

I agree with everything you said about Silverlight...

However, ultimately I believe that Silverlight will fail for the same reasons Flash failed. Flash has not failed at all. Instead, it has gone the way of Java and found a niche that it wasn't originally intended for. Java was intended for applet's on the web, and it wound-up as a server language. Flash was a neat way to make web-sites, but it now is used for applets, games, and streaming video.

Having gone to the Game Developer's Conference last week, I see that the demand for Flash and ActionScript developers has jumped 100% over the past year. Flash is becoming the scripting language of choice for custom UIs. I'm not talking about Adobe's web-browser-based .SWF player called "Flash" - I'm referring to the open-standard language and file format used in .SWF, for which there are many hardware-accelerated 3rd-party players. For example, ScaleForm makes a Flash player that is used for the UI in Command and Conquer.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Lotunggim Ginsawat]

What is this free alternative, that does not need any downloading, that will do just as well? That thing must be available in all platforms (Windows, Linux, OS X, *BSD) and does not require additional installation of plugins/extensions to get more essential features such as multimedia file viewing.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[man_of_mr_e]

Access in 20 years is not guaranteed. Silverlight is proprietary. Micorosoft have made it accessible to other operating systems but ongoing accessibility is absolutely dependent on the whim of Microsoft maintaining the availability and leaving the format untouched.

The flaw in your argument is that it doesn't matter. The content we're talking about is content taken from existing physical books. If Silverlight went away, the books would still be there, and can be converted to any other format. In fact, it's likely that information is available in everything from plain text to lossless graphics already.

What we're talking about is a convenient presentation format for the material, and that presentation format can change over time.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Serious Callers Only]

HTML - you can view multimedia including video without flash or silverlight (which is not fully or officially available on Linux or bsd anyway).

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Flash failed

Wait what? Flash failed? Last I checked some big company's like Cisco (Discovery Program), Google (youtube), .... I don't know where you get the idead that flash has failed from....:(

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[Lotunggim Ginsawat]

You will need plugins to view multimedia files such as videos on HTML pages. HTML codes will not cut it. And those plugins need to be DOWNLOADED! I never see Firefox or IE comes out with multimedia capabilities out of the box.

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[zoips]

Accessibility in Silverlight

Re:where's the disadvantage?

[tenco]

Great. AFAICS this has many disadvantages. No Mac support (guess there's no Linux support, either). Depends on the screenreader shipped with MS Windows. Can only give short descriptive information for whole plugin (read: string without a structure like headings, paragraphs, etc.).

be sure to contact mray@loc.gov

[goffster]

Tell him what you think!

Calling wolf again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm ... it's not exactly a reliable source, is it?

"Cory Doctorow sounds the alarm ..."

As he so often does. That guy seems to live in a constant state of hysteria -- mostly about nothing at all. I think he basically does it for attention, like a naughty child.

That said, Silverlight is bad news for an open Internet that's not controlled by any one company through proprietary technology. But it's not clear from this "article" precisely what the Library has promised in terms of using it. How much content will be in it? Will any of this content be available in other forms? Will the Library lock-out users who haven't installed (or won't install) Silverlight?

I don't like or trust Microsoft, and I think it could very well be bribing the Library into doing something quite indefensible here. Microsoft has a quite appalling record, and there's now doubt of that. But I think it's important to be fair to the Library, and we'd need to know much more about exactly what it is doing before "sounding the alarm".

Post a message to the LOC!

[EMR]

I just sent them a message explaining the issues with choosing a proprietary technology to hold the LOC content on their website via their Contact US form on the mylog.gov website. Explaining the track record and history of Microsoft is to change the technology midstream, or abandon it, (ie. Play for Sure and the new Zune) also it does not allow FULL and OPEN access by ALL people. And that locking that content in Silverlight would require me having to purchase a new computer, new OS, PLUS several companion products (anti-virus, anti-spyware etc..) Just to view content semi-securely and safely.

Re:Post a message to the LOC!

[TrancePhreak]

Then they should laugh at you, and point out that Silverlight is already on OSX and is being developed for GNU/Linux.

Why did they make Silverlight?

[Neuticle]

Considering how omnipresent Flash is today, in good and bad implementations*, why did MS decide to make Silverlight and push it so hard? I've read a bit about it, but I missed the boat on the big publicity when it was first announced. To me it just seems like a Flash-clone, not something new and innovative.

Is this just classical MS jealousy over seeing someone else dominate a market and wanting that market, even if they don't already compete there? Embrace, Extend, Extinguish etc

Are there any web developers excited over advantages over flash? Or is it just one of those thing you'll have to learn because MS is shoveling it on you?

I'm actually curious as to what people think here.

*there are times I think it's used just because some PHB wants to "have flash" on the page e.g. flash buttons for simple hyperlinks

Re:Why did they make Silverlight?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a lot of sound reasons for creating Silverlight, not the least of which is an answer to Flash's domination in web video, when Microsoft and a lot of content producers have so much invested in Windows Media formats. Some companies have a large library of WM videos, so their video player experience is terrible and Silverlight is a new, exciting option.

Also, the broader philosophy of extending Windows/WPF development onto the web is a savvy business and technological decision.

For Library of Congress, the only reason this story is news is because it's part of a big push by Microsoft to get a broader install base for Silverlight before version 2 comes out later the this year. If it was Flash, no one would notice, even though Flash has the same issues in terms of being a proprietary, inaccessible technology. Linux support isn't ready yet, but in the meantime, there is almost always a plain-text alternative.

As a developer, I like the fact that I can create Silverlight 1.0 apps with just a text editor and a browser. While version 2 development will mainly move to Visual Studio and the Expression suite, the javascript development style will still be a viable option and I can see it as a good choice once the install base is broad enough.

Re:Why did they make Silverlight?

[man_of_mr_e]

Silverlight solves a number of Flash's shortcomings.

1) It's XML based, making it more indexible than flash's binary format.
2) It allows more than just one language to program it (flash requires actionscript only)
3) It is based on XAML, which is also used by WPF which allows code and XML to be shared between web and desktop applications easily
4) Because it's XML it's more easily converted to other forms (HTML, for instance, via XSLT)
5) Microsoft thought they could do it better

Re:Silverlight - it's actually illegal!

[LiENUS]

So Microsoft (and LOC's move) may actually be illegal depending on how it's implemented.
Fortunately We know Microsoft has an excellent policy for when their product is not compatible with the law. Lobby, bribe and cheat until the law is twisted into allowing their product to resemble compliance.

How is this "locking in their collection"

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the article, they are just providing the software for the presentation layer. They are not converting any backend content to a MS specific format. How is this any different than using Flash? I am sure that a bunch of "perl" scripts and CSS won't create the snazzy interactive interfaces that the library of congress is looking to create. Sensational slashdotting...

Silverlight is only the front end.

[Anonymous Coward]

Silverlight is only the front end. The data format can be anything.

Silverlight and Firefox

[donatzsky]

Am I the only one that can't get Silverlight to work with Firefox on Windows? I have now tried on two different machines, several times, with the same result.

Re:Silverlight and Firefox

[Zarf]

Am I the only one that can't get Silverlight to work with Firefox on Windows? I have now tried on two different machines, several times, with the same result. I can't get it to work in Internet Explorer... on Windows or Linux... let alone my Mac.

Re:Silverlight and Firefox

[Your.Master]

Worked fine for me on FF2, FF3B2, and FF3B3, under three machines, one on Vista Ultimate x64 and the others on Vista Enterprise x86.

Web Site Comments. Let them know what you think.

[twitter]

Web Site Comments looks like the appropriate place to tell them what you think of non free information and non free formats.

The LOC should not host works that can't be exactly reproduced for non commercial purposes. Rights holders who disagree with that can host content on their own dime and pay for their own advertising. At the very least, the copyright status of works on the LOC site should be unambiguous. Serving them that content with restrictions is a waste of everyone's time and money. Sooner or later, all of the work will have to be redone because non free formats are always flash in the pan. Non free content will violate everyone's rights and pocketbook in the mean time. There's no amount of equipment, software or money that M$ can come up with overcome the cost of giving them control of our national library. Our heritage and freedom is worth more than the $20 billion in cash they have.

Vista

[Nom du Keyboard]

The Library, in turn, agrees to put kiosks running Vista

And then the Vista built-in DRM will then prevent anyone from actually accessing any of the possibly copyrighted information. Better to err on the side of caution and block everything.

Congratulations to all the Geinuses involved...

[Zarf]

everyone involved in this project should have their names recorded on a large bronze plaque in front of the library as a matter of American pride.

By the way, I'm being completely sarcastic right now.

Actual wording of the letter from Microsoft

[Dystopian Rebel]

Dear Library Of Congress,

We are interested in donating $3m USD in technology, services, and funding if you will use kiosks powered by Windows Vista and Silverlight.

If you choose not to accept our offer, we reserve the right to pursue all necessary steps to ensure that the Library Of Congress's patrons are provided with the opportunity to realize the value inherent in our proposal.

We will fuck with you if we have to.

Sincerely,

General Presidente Señor Lanzero de Sillónes Ballmero
La Republica de Bananas de Redmondia

Re:Silverlight - it's actually illegal!

[rjkimble]

It's actually illegal to remove Section 508 compliance from a government website

The trouble with that argument is that the Library of Congress is in the Legislative Branch, not the Executive Branch, and the way that such laws are written almost always don't apply to the Legislative Branch. GPO (Government Printing Office) and GAO (Government Accountability Office) fall into the same category.

DO NOT WANT!!!

[Plazmid]

DO NOT WANT!!!!

Daily Two Minute Hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Right on time!

Hey guys. I heard Silverlight was made with the blood of dead babies! SERIOUSLY!!!!

How much is $3m?

[mcrbids]

What's that in LOCs?

Uh, wait...

Re:How much is $3m?

[asc99c]

Fantastic. We can now do conversions from a number of bytes to a value of money. Unfortunately an LOC converts to much less money than I'd hoped for. By that conversion rate I've barely done a cent of work today :(

Isn't this illegal in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

> This deal involves the donation of 'technology, services and funding'

In my country it is...

In god we trust, all others pay cash

[westlake]

I'll double the Microsoft deal and offer them $6M in perl scripts and an infinite value of free OS software if they let me (or Google or any other honest company) publish their collections in free formats.

The LOC collections:

30 million books in 470 languages, including the largest rare book collection in the states.
58 million manuscripts
1 million government publications
1 million issues of the world's newspapers dating back 300 years. 30,000 bound volumes of newspapers
500,000 reels of microfilm
4.8 million maps, 2.7 million audio recordings
legal documents, films, photographs, about 100 years of original slides and negatives from National Geographic alone, sheet music, comic books, etc., etc., etc.

These records are fragile.

They need expert handling at every stage. Restoration presents complex artistic and technical challenges.

This isn't a software problem. It's a manpower problem.

You need an exceptionally skilled labor force. Which makes it a money problem - you need a lot of money to be a player in this game.

Re:In god we trust, all others pay cash

[Serious Lemur]

I don't know about you, but when I'm a little short on cash, my first thought isn't to spread my legs for Bill Gates.

Silverlight

[pluggo]

It's what the LOC craves...

left hand good, right hand evil

[rgaginol]

What's really stupid about this is that Library of Congress, or at least a component within them, are seen to be a champion for open formats: http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/intro/intro.shtml/ (that's a Library of Congress site). They've got a $3 million dollar deal, but at the cost of a lot of credability in the archival community.

Readers of Slashdot could be powerful.

[Futurepower(R)]

"Well, we are running a deficit. I guess the government needed the $3 million dollars."

That's the kind of low energy, uncaring way of thinking that makes a mess of things. Readers of Slashdot, if they decide to work together, can be very powerful.

Let's end the dominance of the depressed people among us, who constantly imply that nothing is worth much effort. (Notice that one of the tags given by K. Dawson to this story is "googleisevil". That doesn't even make any sense in the context.)

Let's do something more than just complain about Microsoft's abusive behavior. Slashdot, or some other site we start, could grow up and be adult and take responsibility for something other than just our own lives.

Re:Readers of Slashdot could be powerful.

[wizbit]

Notice that one of the tags given by K. Dawson to this story is "googleisevil".

Since when do the editors tag stories? I was under the impression they only filtered tags from users (and even then, only subscribers got to tag publicly).

Re:Readers of Slashdot could be powerful.

[rbanffy]

But Google _is_ evil.

It's just the lesser of the two.

Re:Readers of Slashdot could be powerful.

[ggvaidya]

For quite a while, actually. I remember somebody pointing out in their sig that CmdrTaco had tagged one of the stories he'd posted himself as "slownewsday". You can see kdawson and CmdrTaco's lists of posted tags from their profile pages (linked for your convenience), but be warned that those pages take forever to open.

Re:Readers of Slashdot could be powerful.

[dzfoo]

>> (Notice that one of the tags given by K. Dawson to this story is "googleisevil". That doesn't even make any sense in the context.)

From the summary:

(or Google or any other honest company)

The tag about GoogleIsEvil is in relation to that comment suggesting that Google is honest. Therefore is very much relevant to the context.

          -dZ.

Must be a new CTO

[Anonymous Coward]

I met the old CTO at the LOC about 4-5 years ago around the Christmas holidays at an event, and there is no way he'd go along with this. I'm assuming he retired and there's a new "genius" in charge over there.

A shame, really.

$3 million tax write-off for $millions in lock-in.

[Futurepower(R)]

"Sure no money is changing hands but there is consideration given."

And Microsoft fully expects that consideration to be eventually worth many millions of dollars in vendor lock-in, as soon as proprietary extensions can be added in later versions. (I'm sorry, Library of Congress, your web site requires you to run Windows, because Linux is not licensed to use the new versions of Silverlight.)

That's what Microsoft has always done before, in my opinion. There is every reason to believe it will happen again.

It is not an issue of mac or linux users,

[an.echte.trilingue]

No, Mac users can use silverlight, and have been able to for quite some time. Linux users will be able to use it soon, although I don't know about licensing and patents.

So, from a user's perspective, this is irrelevant. The concern in this new technology is on the server side of things, and in Microsoft's market position. Silverlight's purpose in life is to dynamically load xml within the DOM tree, which should sound familiar since that is essentially what Ajax does. Ajax, however, has some short comings, for which the w3c developed the E4X standard.

However, given the high quality of web applications written in Ajax, Microsoft rightly assessed that E4X threatened their office and email monopolies, and therefore their OS monopoly, because such applications are platform-agnostic. It is no coincidence that MS really started to push Silverlight development shortly after Google started testing high quality Ajax-based office, email and collaboration software.

Therefore, IE, which is already pretty non-standards compliant in its javascript syntax, still does not support it at all, although all other major browsers have for years. By creating and promoting silverlight, MS is essentially embracing and extending to get control of dynamic web page standards away from the w3c. They will try to promote silverlight in as many places as possible, and hobble Ajax in IE. They will develop a series of neat free tools that make it easy to develop in silverlight. Once there is a critical mass of pages that use silverlight, they will start to make "improvements" to the standard but only integrate those changes into their Windows plugin. When that happens, all web users will once again be locked into Microsoft. It will MS will also have the bonus of also being able to integrate features that depend on asp, forcing their way into the server market.

If you don't believe MS would use a strategy like this, just ask yourself why there was an IE5.5 for Macs and no IE6 for Macs.

Thus, improvements in technology that should be happening around an open standards making body, indeed would happen faster and more effeciently in this standards making body, are going to go into the hands of one company at proceed at a much slower rate. It's a classic embrace/extend/extinguish. It is just sad that the US government is supporting this.

wow

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I stopped reading after the third dollar sign. You realize that pretty much drowns anything you have to say and makes you look like you're a 12-year old repeating something like "poopyhead", correct?

But I guess that's why you post at -1 by default.

Re:Silverlight - it's actually illegal!

[littlerubberfeet]

Some years ago, there was an effort by the LOC to implement an online registration system for copyrights. They tried then to do a windows-only implementation in a way that violated section 508. It didn't fly, and they are using a PDF system with generated barcodes. I have done some work for multi million dollar production houses with not a single networked Windows box. Nobody would risk connecting their dedicated Gigastudio machine to the internet either.

Anyway, the point is:

They have been exceedingly shortsighted in providing non-Windows support in the past. If they offer two versions of their content, then that is acceptable, but if they don't offer something that is 508 compliant, perhaps it is time for a lawsuit. It would probably do more than anything else to wake them up. They keep assuming that the entire world uses Windows, but many of us don't. Windows is NOT a standard. Standards are good. Potential congressman Lessig would probably agree.

----------
If anyone is writing them, posit this:

I can only use the LOC website with silverlight if I have a windows PC.

Would the LOC use MARC records as a data standard if they could only use MARC records:

a-With a $500 reader that will no longer be useful after 3 years?

b-With a $500 dollar reader that only a single company makes?

c-With a $500 dollar reader that users can't legally and freely share with other users?

d-If only MARC records could only be hosted on a (expensive) server made by said company?

e-If the company wasn't willing to support MARC records if they didn't end up widely adapted by commercial markets?

e-If the MARC records standards was owned by said company, and changes were illegal?

f-If MARC records violated ss.508 and many usability standards your patrons rely on?
----------

Maybe they will understand in that context.

I don't mean to bash the LOC. I have worked with some amazing staffers and librarians there. They do an awesome job. But, the bureaucracy and some of the leadership have their heads so deep in sand they have hit bedrock.

I don't understand the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

The LOC chose the MS proprietary solution (given for free) over the Adobe proprietary solution (not free). Since there is no viable FOSS solution to Adobe Flash, why is this even being whined about by FOSS advocates? Either way you have to download and install a proprietary plugin for your browser.

Re:sig line

[littlerubberfeet]

All American suck, because they let their government do idiotic things like only make data available in proprietary formats.

Seriously: Can we have the government define government-wide standards for data accessibility? No OOXML crap. We need real, open standards that any company can use and interface with. Perhaps all standards have to be ISO and Creative Commons/GPL licensed?

I'm sure Google, IBM, and a host of other companies would love it, especially if it aided prior-art research with the USPTO. If Microsoft tries to inject their semi-open crap, hopefully the other companies will pound it down.

Good for MSFT for donating much-needed equipment to the LOC, but they do more harm than good sometimes. Silverlight? Hopefully there is a simple HTML page I can use instead.

Full Disclosure

[TFer_Atvar]

Raul knows what he's talking about... he's the main Featured Article approver at Wikipedia.

Re:sig line

[ScrewMaster]

Honestly, I'm less concerned about the format in which data is made available (just get it out there, we'll convert it into whatever we need) than I am about the format in which it is archived. The reason for open formats is as much about long-term retrievability of information, as it is about document interchange. The very last thing we want is important data being stored in some form that simply cannot be read after some interval. We're already having big problems regarding obsolescence of physical media. For example, there's terabytes stored on 9 track tapes which are in danger of being lost forever. I see no reason to further complicate the issue by using file formats that can only be read by proprietary or vendor-specific software.

Silverlight and Accessibility

[xswl0931]

Silverlight, unlike Flash, is designed with full accessibility support including screen readers.

Re:Silverlight and Accessibility

[Excelsior]

I know this probably isn't politically correct, but here goes. There's appx 6-700,000 legally blind persons in the US. There are far more than that using platforms unsupported by Silverlight.

So, great, Silverlight is accessible to the blind. Last I checked, so is HTML (especially XHTML).

Re:Silverlight and Accessibility

[PCM2]

So, great, Silverlight is accessible to the blind. Last I checked, so is HTML (especially XHTML).

It's not the format that makes it accessible; it's the screen reader. I know nothing of the Silverlight specs, but the GP is saying that Silverlight has the ability to interface with screen readers -- which already work with HTML pages -- whereas Flash does not. Again, I do not know how accurate this statement is, but you seem to have missed the point (because HTML is accessible to the blind).

Re:Silverlight and Accessibility

[Excelsior]

I'm not missing his point. I do understand it, and I realize it was in response to a post about Flash. The point I was trying to make is that accessibility isn't a reason to choose Silverlight in an application funded by public money, intended for public consumption, when it makes itself inaccessible to a larger group of people than the blind. I'm definitely not implying Flash is a better choice.

this seems like

[sentientbrendan]

a non issue.

Silverlight for linux is already under development as part of mono. I'm sure we'll have a firefox plugin for linux by the time this stuff goes live. Also, microsoft produces a mac version of silverlight.

Since both mac and linux will be able to use the site it isn't really locking anyone out any more than flash locks people out.

Not everything that microsoft does is a doomsday scenerio.

Library Spokesman Contact Info Link

[Anonymous Coward]

Matt Raymond, quoted in the linked blog article, has his contact information available and writes that "we love feedback!

Address:
Matt Raymond
101 Independence Ave. SE
Washington DC 20540-9510

Email: mray(at)loc(dot)gov -- You'll have to replace the "(at)" and "(dot)" with symbols, due to spambots
Phone: 202.707.2905

Bizarro Slashdot...

[Mongoose Disciple]

(For the 80% of replies that didn't seriously examine this before firing off knee-jerk... this is about replacing a Flash interface with a Silverlight interface. It's not about encoding all the contents of the Library of Congress in Silverlight and then burning all the original sources.)

I think if I had posted a year ago predicting that half the posters here would be frothing at the mouth that someone would dare replace a Flash interface with something cross-platform and developer friendly, I'd have been mocked by one and all.

Damn it, people! You let Microsoft turn you into a bunch of Flash Fanboys!.

Flash has been able to be crap in a lot of ways for years for lack of any real competition. Now it's getting some. That's a good thing. If five years from now Flash is dead and Microsoft is doing something retarded with Silverlight, I'm sure something else will rise up to challenge it as Firefox challenges IE now.

Writing your congressman because the LOC is dumping Flash of all stupid things only perpetuates the negative stereotypes of our community.

Re:Bizarro Slashdot...

[DragonTHC]

You have a good point about flash's platform availability. I'm not a fanboy, but it really is a de facto web standard platform for content presentation.
Microsoft's deal is just damn sneaky. No one is buying into silverlight. I just don't think it's necessary. Just use flash. I know, that is a fanboy thing to say.

Flash isn't really broken. Forcing people to install silverlight to view content they've been viewing fine for years with something they install once.

Quite frankly, adobe has a better record on quality than MS.

Re:Bizarro Slashdot...

[Mongoose Disciple]

I'm of two minds here.

I don't mind Flash as a web user.

I hate Flash as a web developer.

It's in this latter category that I see promise in Silverlight -- if not directly, it's got to force Adobe to do a little more work to appeal to developers.

Re:Bizarro Slashdot...

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't say that is you knew anything about Silverlight.

Here are the reasons I like silverlight better than flash:

1. Free full functional IDE from the vendor. VS2008 Express can build Silverlight pages and is free to everyone.
2. No binaries for code if you don't want them. All of your animation and automation can be done in javascript so your editor of choich can be VI or TextEdit if you want.
3. Tiny download. It looks like even the 2.0 version of Silverlight will less than 5MB. With full Windows Media Codec support! ... and that is the things that come to mind at 3:30 in the morning!

Version 2.0 which will be out in beta soon is even better...

- Any .Net language can be used. That means Python, Java, and C. (Do you really want to use actionscript?)
- Full set of window controls: buttons, menus, textboxes, listboxes, dialog boxes.
- Network support way beyond that of simple XMLRPC.

Ah I am wasting time, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverlight#Silverlight_2.0

Re:Bizarro Slashdot...

[soulhuntre]

"80% of replies that didn't seriously examine this before firing off knee-jerk"

Higher. it will be a cold day in hell before 20% of the Slashdot audience actually does anythign but fire off knee jerked panic responses to anything MS does.

Make a petition against it

[twocows]

Someone make a petition against it. I'd definitely sign it, and I'm sure thousands of others would, too. Then submit the petition to the Library of Congress.

Re:Web Site Comments. Let them know what you think

[that this is not und]

Well, ideally this can be used as 'the camel's nose in the tent' to force Microsoft to open up the Silverfish, er.. Silverlight protocols. It seems like a perfect instance where interoperability should be required. With that as a requirement, it seems like an excellent idea for the LOC to accept free kiosks with, er... Vista on them. (They can always be upgraded to a better OS once they're in place.)

It IS also an issue about Mac and Linux users

[Anonymous Coward]

It in fact IS an issue about Mac and Linux users.

          Silverlight for Mac PowerPC is at version 1.0, with Intel Mac at 1.1. And Silverlight for Linux is vaporware. Either way, though, it's wrong to require a plugin to do things that don't need it. The few silverlight things I've seen (on a Windows box at work), most could have used plain old HTML + JPEGs -- the Silverlight requirement was flat-out gratuitous. A few had inline videos. And the fancies could have easily used flash -- flash is already ubiquotus, reinventing the wheel is ridiculous

Great. Now the LOC is on the upgrade treadmill...

[Chas]

And in a couple years, when Microsoft dumps THIS technology (or at least the iteration that's compatible with what the LOC will use) as well, we'll have a bunch of slowly decaying terabytes of data.

Step one to the Idiocracy. Destroy access to our data.

Do no evil?

[kir]

I'll double the Microsoft deal and offer them $6M in perl scripts and an infinite value of free OS software if they let me (or Google or any other honest company) publish their collections in free formats.

Google? Do no evil, right? Honest?

Need I mention China?

Re:Web Site Comments. Let them know what you think

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha ha, twitter. Shilling your own sockpuppet journals? That's rich. But then that's really what you are, a dishonest liar.

Re:Web Site Comments. Let them know what you think

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's try this again. Re-type your comment without that "M$" thing that stopped being funny in 1997 so I don't have to feel like I'm listening to a seven year old child tell me how he doesn't like the "poopyhead" across the street, and I'll actually consider the content of your post. Otherwise all I hear is, in fact, "poopyhead".

MS Making a play

[joelstobart]

But not for the OS. This is a Firefox, Flash, and Flex bash. From my point of view a bit of competition in the RIA arena might be good for Flash/Flex. But I really think that if you're outputting documents online the best plan would be HTML.

And as for Firefox - Firefox 3 is by far the best browser I have used. When its out of beta I reckon Europe could go 50/50 with Microsoft.

- Joel

LOC Bluescreened at least since 2000

[An dochasac]

I made a video when we visited the Library of Congress in the year 2000. I filmed parts of their amazing collection of early books, copies of the Gutenberg bible, etc. Then I went to the information kiosks and filmed a circle of computers all displaying the classic Microsoft blue-screen.

Damn shame!

[Fuzzypig]

What annoys me most is that MS couldn't give two hoots about the project other than it's importance as a point scorer. It couldn't care less if generations to come have to go begging cap-in-hand for the dusty old source to unlock the data, they simply want to score points right now and prove that only MS can be trusted to look after the nation's history and heritage, not a bunch of "commie-hippies" and their free stuff! Once again a prime example of those with the purse strings only having heard of MS and that's all their kids, wives, grannies, etc, use. "What you mean there are alternatives and they're free? Well if you have to give it away, can't very much good then can it! We'll stick with someone who can be trusted eh?"

Re:Damn shame!

[MagicBox]

....not a bunch of "commie-hippies" and their free stuff

Well, brother, what do you expect if you associate yourself with Cory Doctorow (I challenge him to convince people he doesn't own/or has read a copy of the communist manifesto)?

You'd think that the open source people would be smarter now, after having been in business for a while, that associating your cause for wide-spread acceptance with "movement"-centric people will not help, no matter how much you think you are doing the right thing. Maybe that is the big-downside of Open Source that they do not get YET. They want everyone to use their product, but do not want to be portrayed as "sellouts". I think there's a major contradiction right there. And all this while maintaining that "underground" feeling, that "against-the-norm" portrayal, that "rise-against-the-big-bully-corporation" attitude and stance. But it doesn't f-king work. Maybe if you concentrated on how "people" work for a change, then you'd probbably be more successful, closer to your goal.

SHIT!!!

[RecycledElectrons]

I love the LOC, and being locked out by MICRO$OFT'S CRAP sucks. I mean it really sucks.

SHIT!

Andy

10 LET M$ = "Microsoft": REM IANAT

[tepples]

Let's try this again. Re-type your comment without that "M$" thing that stopped being funny in 1997

It saves seven bytes.

Microsoft built its business on tools for the BASIC programming language, and M$ is a valid name for a string variable in BASIC. The biggest difference that I can see between this and Eric S. Raymond's example of "$PHB" is that one is BASIC and the other is Perl.

Re:10 LET M$ = "Microsoft": REM IANAT

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I'm not what you'd call Microsoft's biggest fan or anything, and it seems this twitter person has a penchant for creative spelling (not just M$ but Windoze and so on), which is probably why he/she consistently gets called out for it. Personally, I think I could care less if I were Microsoft and some random yahoo was trying to insult me on the internets.

But your post is possibly the most stupid and retarded thing I've ever read on Slashdot. I mean, you seem like a halfway intelligent person, I guess, and you know exactly why that reply was posted, yet you still went to the trouble of trying to be clever and justify spelling Microsoft with a dollar sign. That's probably even more petty and childish that the creative spelling itself.

WTF error message?

[dotancohen]

This is what I sent them:

I understand that the Library of Congress is planning a website powered by Microsoft's Silverlight technology, as reported here:
http://www.gcn.com/print/27_2/45710-1.html

As a Linux user, this development worries me. Silverlight is not currently available for Linux, and even if it were I would not install it. Silverlight is a proprietary, undocumented format, and is developed by a company that has a track record of insecure software. Therefore, to view the LoC website with Silverlight, I would have to install software that could potentially make my computer as vulnerable to attack as any Windows computer. That, assuming that Silverlight were even available for Linux, which it is not. Macintosh users are in a similar position. Although Silverlight is available for Macintosh, there is no guarantee of the application's security, and the application could be discontinued at any time (Like IE for Mac was). There are many open, standards-compliant technologies that can power the LoC's website. Many of these technologies are available free of cost, and are better suited to exactly the type of role in which Silverlight is intended to fulfill. In fact, this does not even seem to be an application where Silverlight's distinguishing features are useful.

I urge the Library of Congress to reconsider it's position and to consider other technologies. And this is the error that I got:

nanny nanny boo boo.
Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /.mnt.marvel.www.data.rr/askalib/askalib3error.php:65) in /.mnt.marvel.www.data.rr/askalib/askalib3error.php on line 260 Nanny nanny boo boo?

Re:Silverlight - it's actually illegal!

[dotancohen]

It's actually illegal to remove Section 508 compliance from a government website (hence why many of them suck so much)... and Silverlight, true to typical usages of it, will break that compliance in a big way. So Microsoft (and LOC's move) may actually be illegal depending on how it's implemented. I would hope that Cory, or anybody who has some sway, will realize this and call them on it. Er, YOU did realize this. Write to them. I did. See what I got for it:
Library of Congress lost

Re:Web Site Comments. Let them know what you think

[Anonymous Coward]

Re-type your comment without that "M$" thing that stopped being funny in 1997

Sorry, Bill, it's still both funny and relevant now. much as you wish it would go away.

...and I'll actually consider the content of your post.

Like he/she gives a shit you moron.

...Otherwise all I hear is, in fact, "poopyhead"

So how are those voices in your head?

Vaporware

[DragonHawk]

Linux users will be able to use it [Silverlight] soon, although I don't know about licensing and patents. Yah, and Linux is also the first platform targeted for the release of Duke Nukem Forever, too.

50 LET MAXSIZE = 50: REM Otherwise it gets cut off

[tepples]

I mean, you seem like a halfway intelligent person, I guess, and you know exactly why that reply was posted, yet you still went to the trouble of trying to be clever Clever, or civil?

and justify spelling Microsoft with a dollar sign. Of course, we can ask twitter to spell out "Microsoft" in the comment text if he wants to be accepted. But the subject of a Slashdot comment is limited to 50 bytes. What abbreviation would you prefer that we ask him to use in subjects?

lol

[FiberOPtic]

myloc.gov indeed ...

microsoft loc yes the already got the gov part ...

no smile here ...

The letter $.

[Anonymous Coward]

My keyboard i$ mi$$ing a few key$, you in$en$itive clod!!

Ouch!

[jd]

That's not a nice experience and it says a lot that you kept your collective sanity intact and worked round the problem. Sadly, that's not the first time I've heard such a story. It makes me seriously question the thought process that leads people to entrusting their tech support to an organization when anecdotal evidence suggests that support is dysfunctional or totally absent.

I sympathise with you, and with anyone else who has had similar experiences. I don't have any easy answers, though. Tech support is, in general, an area that has been allowed to decay over time. Even hardware support - which used to mean company employees with specialist training being there within an hour for an urgent call-out - is now run as a cheap side-line. Ultimately, though, QA and tech support are no less critical than any other part of the operation. You can't just do QA and support, though, Red Hat and SuSE tried that business model in various ways, and although it did seem to produce revenue, I've not heard of it doing well.

If there are any group dynamic psychologists or sociologists on Slashdot looking for a research topic, the dynamics within companies, between companies and users, and between the users themselves, is rife with dysfunction, Type I realities, religion, para-religion, and all sorts of other fun. The science of corporate-provided support systems in society would be worthy PhD material and a good few research papers besides. You could probably make a killing selling a book on how to survive the existing system and how to have a practical system people wouldn't need to worry about having to survive.

They're not locking people out... yet... but...

[argent]

If you go to "Exploring the Early Americas" at http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/earlyamericas/ you will see that they are having to develop two versions of each Silverlight-enhanced view to avoid locking out people who are not using Silverlight, which means they're spending MORE money developing their websites, and eventually they're going to decide not to do that.

One hopes they'll decide to quit making the Silverlight version instead of the HTML version, once the $3M run out.

you rock

[Anonymous Coward]

You've become a legend. Not exactly the effect you were going for, I gather. Your "evangelism" has become a punch line in one of the largest free software/open source communities in the world. And I'm sure it's all Microsoft's fault, too. Good going.

Doesn't Matter Anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a government project, by the time they come out with their "Silverlight Powered" website, people will already be on the Next Big Thing

Re:50 LET MAXSIZE = 50: REM Otherwise it gets cut

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid much?

Re:50 LET MAXSIZE = 50: REM Otherwise it gets cut

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid much? Stupid is as stupid does, stupid.

Oh yes, I get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Right...

Re:50 LET MAXSIZE = 50: REM Otherwise it gets cut

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope twitter's cock tastes good, especially after being in Stallman's rectum for so long.

If you only knew how bad it actually is there....

[docwatson223]

LoC and CRS share a network that is a disaster; CRS needs to go alone but LoC holds them back and the result is that the network that connects the House, Senate, and LoC is based on DECNET. The routers that they have are EOS and won't be replaced anytime soon because no one will take the responsibility for the funding of it. CRS spent $10 Million on in-house development for a publishing system they could have bought off the shelf for $1 Million and had a CIO resign over the debacle. That M$ has a foothold there is a significant understatement but Novell in CRS isn't much better.