Smartphone Battle Is Shaping Up As RIM Vs. Apple

TeknoFin notes a piece in the NYTimes on the fight RIM finds itself in as the smartphone market shifts to a consumer focus, impelled by the iPhone. For the last 10 years RIM has dominated a smartphone market consisting mainly of email-obsessed corporate professionals. Analysts wonder if RIM can hold on to their lead as their strengths — such as cozy relations with cell carriers worldwide — are diluted by new entrants Apple and Google, who are "vocally trying to dislodge the carriers from the nexus of the North American wireless market." One of RIM's strengths in the corporate market has been their security. Yet Apple executives have said that one-third of Fortune 500 companies were interested in giving iPhones — with all their known and potential security holes — to their employees.

Comments

Somewhere... in a Redmond, WA office...

[Anonymous Coward]

A chair just hit the wall.

Re:Somewhere... in a Redmond, WA office...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure anyone at Microsoft has anything to be pissed off about, they probably made a pretty penny from Apple licensing ActiveSync.

Re:Somewhere... in a Redmond, WA office...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this guy up, very true.

Re:Somewhere... in a Redmond, WA office...

[dc29A]

I'm not sure anyone at Microsoft has anything to be pissed off about, they probably made a pretty penny from Apple licensing ActiveSync. Maybe because Windows Mobile is a complete failure? When Microsoft shills like Mary Jo Foley are skeptical about Windows Mobile, MS might have a 'small' problem on their hands.

The world is not the U.S.

[mvdwege]

And again U.S.-centric media act as if the U.S. market is representative for the whole world.

Here's a hint: RIM is only a player in push-mail smartphones. Worldwide, the major smartphone platform is Symbian. Apple may as well not exist in the world-wide market. I have seen a colleagues iPhone, and it is a nice little machine, but it is currently geared more for multimedia use than as a business smartphone. It will take Apple at least one more generation to actually become a threat to Symbians dominance of the marketplace.

Of course, compared to the other bit players in the marketplace, if one company can pull off a landslide shift in marketshare, it will be Apple. It helps that they understand Marketing extremely well.

Mart

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[furball]

What makes a smartphone suitable for business usage versus multimedia usage? What do business users need that's different than a non-business user?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Nullav]

A keypad comes to mind.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[calebt3]

Why would they need a physical keypad? Is it hard to use the touchscreen?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Tony Hoyle]

Security, ability to install bespoke applications, secure VPN, secure wireless, exchange integration, ability to dial out on multiple numbers...

Apple is trying to address some of these with firmware 2.0 but there's one key that businesses look for - the ability to negotiate very competative deals with the providers because they can play them off one another and get much lower than the published prices (one place I was at the mere threat of going elsewhere usually got them insanely good deals - that was a big contract). Apple has yet to address this, as there is currently nowhere else to go, and iphone is a monoculture.. if you port your apps to it you're stuck with it.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[AuMatar]

Ever tried to type on a touchscreen? It makes 12 button phones look like a good ui.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[FishWithAHammer]

I'm not a fan of the iPhone, but typing on it is extremely easy.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Nullav]

It's a pain in the ass, at least as far as typing is concerned. I always find myself typing much slower when there's no tactile feedback to tell me I'm actually hitting keys. (I hate those laser keyboards.) If the iPhone just had a nice slide-out keyboard somewhere, almost all of my gripes with the iPhone would fade away.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[The End Of Days]

Or possibly, just possibly, this is a story about the US market and your world-view whining is completely misplaced. If you want only international news, you'd be best served to stop coming to a US site for it.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[TeknoFin]

Mart -- you're totally right about Symbian. I made the same point in my blog post. Chris Parente

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[lymond01]

LG has a new phone that has touch screen and slide-out keyboard. One complaint is that the touch sliding isn't as graceful as the iPhone.

iPhone is like a luxury car. The Acura TSX (okay...not a Rolls Royce, I admit) does pretty much everything the Honda Civic does. But it's a more comfortable ride and if you're using it every day, that makes a big difference. A clunky interface is an inefficient interface = bad for work. Apple's iPhone GUI has no comptetitors at the moment. While GUI isn't everything, for email, web, maps, contacts, even calendaring if you use Google or iCal, I'd rather use the iPhone than Windows Mobile.

Oh, and the keyboard...you're right: I can't type without looking at the screen like some kids can with their non-touch phones. But I can type a page of real words in less time than a non-12-thumbed adult can type "omg we lost teh deal".

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that you can set the iPhone to vibrate slightly on key presses providing a pseudo-tactile feedback.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[mindslut]

I use Blackberry/RIM as a corporate user, and have seen the iPhone in action a fair amount.

I think the iPhone interface has a lot more potential, and should set the new standard. I think other business users are wondering why they can't have that quality iPhone interface - Blackberries fall short in terms of the information display corporate users often need.

I agree with your point about Apple being that rare company that could pull off a landslide - having a better mousetrap (or the appearance of one - not sure what technical superiority Symbian and RIM may have) and having the rare ability to change the market's mind - could make for a lot of competitive innovation in smart phones. I think it is great and about time.

Meanwhile, its RIM for me for now; not sure for how much longer.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Urthwhyte]

Typing on the iPhone is only easy if you have fingers the size of toothpicks and even then only in comparison to a multitap style input. If you've ever used a decent QWERTYboard or even learned to type well on T9 you know both systems blow it out of the water.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[johnpaul191]

Not sure what smartphone keypad you are talking about. I find the iPhone easier to type on that my Treo.... and i own a Treo.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[dr_pump95]

It will take Apple at least one more generation to actually become a threat to Symbians dominance of the marketplace.

While I agree that the RIM vs iPhone thing is US-centric, Symbian on my E65 sucks and I can't wait to switch to an iPhone (when I can buy a supported one). I'd rather use pre-historic Palm OS than Symbian, but Palm don't make a pocketable phone.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Urthwhyte]

I use an HTC Wizard, but the Nokia E90 or 61 have even better keyboards.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[ltrm]

Don't be so provincial.

The article specifically mentions Steve Jobs' worldwide ambitions in the opening paragraph.

So whether Slashdot is a US site or not is of no consequence here, the point still stands. Symbian is the dominant platform by considerable margin but still doesn't get a mention. Lazy journalism.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[DurendalMac]

You obviously haven't used the iPhone keyboard or have fingers like bratwursts. It's surprisingly tolerant of fat fingers and typing on it isn't tough at all. I prefer it to tiny little QWERTY keyboards that really do require toothpicks to use.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[cthellis]

I have extremely meaty thumbs, yet the FIRST time I picked up an iPhone I was typing away at 30-40 wpm while two-thumbing it.

Admittedly I'm a fast typer normally (fast enough at least, at 80+), so am not hesitant in general, and I knew some of the shortcuts (like how to put a single punctuation mark in without having to tap-switch between the screens twice), but that doesn't change the fact that with no practice, trust in the auto-correction, and a hand completely "non-built" for it, I was moving along quite speedily.

There is certainly room to improve, and most CERTAINLY configuration options Apple has to make available to actually deserve the "software keys++" marketing points they liked to promote, but it's starting on extremely solid ground, and I think will be plenty fast enough for almost anyone once they get used to it.

Not sure how in the way fingernails get, though...

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[cthellis]

Feedback is feedback, and technically it COULD give a little vibration jitter if you were willing to sacrifice the battery life. Audio, too.

It gives much larger visual feedback, which I think helps even things out. Especially since the keyboard is pretty much right on top of the text you're inputting, it also helps speed up error recognition, format changing, etc., as your eyes can hop between the keypad and the entered text quicker--even to the point of giving you pretty effective peripheral vision of it if all you're looking at is the keyboard. (No phone has a keyboard you can effectively touch-type on.)

There is a "tactile difference" between the keyboard I use and the keyboard most laptops use, but does that actually make much of a difference? Does it make anywhere NEAR the difference that altering the size, shape, and position of keys do, or not having full keyboard spacing, etc.?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[tabdelgawad]

My wife has an iPhone and I have a blackberry, so I speak from experience:

Basically, I can't type on the iPhone in portrait mode. In landscape, I can usually peck my way using index fingers, either one handed holding the phone in the other hand, or two handed if a lay the phone on a surface. Typing with thumbs (the preferred method of all bberry users) is simply not possible. FWIW I have average size fingers (I think!).

The iPhone is a wonderful piece of technology. It's easier to do almost everything on it except for the one thing that's essential for business use: type emails. As much as I'd love for my work to give me one for free, they'd have a revolt on their hands if they took away the blackberries.

The iPhone will be a blackberry killer only when you can slide up the touch screen up to reveal a tactile keyboard. With Jobs' aversion to buttons, I don't see that happening any time soon!

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Urthwhyte]

You obviously haven't used the iPhone keyboard or have fingers like bratwursts. It's surprisingly tolerant of fat fingers and typing on it isn't tough at all. I prefer it to tiny little QWERTY keyboards that really do require toothpicks to use. I use an HTC Wizard, which has a large slide out keyboard, so when I first tried the iPhone for around 45 minutes I was really not impressed. I'm firmly in the ball park of people who like tactile feedback when they're typing, it's one of reasons I tracked down an old IBM buckling spring keyboard for my PC. While there certainly are advantages to having a software keyboard, I'm not yet convinced that it is superior to a hardware keyboard on devices like the HTC Excalibur or Kaiser.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[boyfaceddog]

And again U.S.-centric media act as if the U.S. market is representative for the whole world.

This is /. American-centric is what it is all about.

Here's a hint: RIM is only a player in push-mail smartphones. Worldwide, the major smartphone platform is Symbian. Apple may as well not exist in the world-wide market.

See above

I have seen a colleagues iPhone, and it is a nice little machine, but it is currently geared more for multimedia use than as a business smartphone.

Being "geared more for multimedia than (for) business" has never stopped my company from adopting silly pieces of hardware/software. I bet the same is true elsewhere.

It will take Apple at least one more generation to actually become a threat to Symbians dominance of the marketplace.

You're probably correct. Apple is, above all things, patient.

Of course, compared to the other bit players in the marketplace, if one company can pull off a landslide shift in marketshare, it will be Apple. It helps that they understand Marketing extremely well.

I don't know about this. I'm not sure Apple ever really saw the iPhone as a contender against RIM/Symbian, but now that the opportunity presents itself will they "market" directly to their new user base (read "businesses") or to their current user base (read "consumers"). I think Apple will ignore the whole things and continue to market only to high-end consumers and let the chips fall where they may. "We never meant for it to be a business-class phone" protects a lot of ass.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[gtx]

I personally don't give a fuck about ringtones or cameras or the ability to play mp3s/videos/games on my phone. At all. My priorities, as a business-centric phone user, are in this order:

1) Phone calls
2) Email
3) Web-browser (and that's expendable, I just like to be able to google things on the road.)

Everything else is pretty much useless to me, whereas I can see where 17 year old girls want their phones to be toys more than anything else. Sure, my phone (blackberry 8830) doesn't have a camera on it, but damn if it doesn't have stable firmware which is made to do exactly what I want it to do with amazing consistency.

Fuck multimedia. All I want is something to handle my email without a hiccup.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Urthwhyte]

Mind elaborating about what you hate with Symbian? I set up an E90 for a client who wanted the big landscape screen for showing presentations without ahaving to bring their laptop, and they went from being a huge pain to support when they had a BlackBerry to a call maybe once every two months after they switched to Symbian. While this anecdote may not cover all experiences, S60 really can't be that bad can it?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[hal9000(jr)]

You are obviously a Luddite. How dare you come to /.!

I agree with you. I have a Treo 700p and I spend most of my time using the phone and email (neither are as nice as the BB though). When I start cursing my phone is when either function flakes on me.

Sure, I like the other proggies I have on there--games, doc readers, and other distractions, but my next phone will be simpler and hopefully stabler.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[dissy]

If the iPhone just had a nice slide-out keyboard somewhere, almost all of my gripes with the iPhone would fade away. So, I have a silly question.
Can the iPhone sync with a bluetooth keyboard?

If not, someone wake the iPhone devs!

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[dr_pump95]

My knowledge of the separation between OS and applications is limited, so my comments reflect the Nokia S60 configuration. These are just a few issues off-the-top-of-my-head:

• - It's slow
• - Configuration is scattered across screens/applications making it unintuitive to configure
• - The address book is particularly slow to use, in part it always jumps to the last address you were on. Most of the time, I want to search again from scratch.
• - The calendar lists to-do items and all-day things like birthdays before actual appointments. I haven't found a way to change this behaviour (yet another example of difficult configuration)
• - The email client wants to be your only email client, so is a pain if you only check your email occasionally on the device (grabs everything and doesn't seem to notice flags indicating read status)
• - The constant need to select from multiple-level menus is really painful

If I sat and thought about it, I could come up with lots more. It's functional, but painful to use. The nicest app on there is one I downloaded: Google maps.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[keytohwy]

The iPhone gives audio feedback. And, like another poster pointed out, if you trust it, you can fly on the typing. I still get emails from BB users that look llike a drunk monkey wrote it. Even worse, when I get those from someone trying to do business. Ugly. keytohwy

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[gtx]

Yeah, I think that cell phone manufactures started catering too much to 17 year old girls as of late.

I used to want a treo back when Handspring was its own company. Then palm had to come and balls everything up. I hear that the email isn't too bad, but the BB email is pretty perfect. Anytime I've ever thought "I wish this thing did...(fill in the blank)" it turns out that it did do what I wanted, I just never knew it.

But yeah, I probably am a bit of a luddite by /. standards.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare a U.S. based website report U.S. based news. Your sybian sex device is not welcome here.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Grave]

This whole "US centric" crap is annoying. This was quoted from a New York Times article. New York. In the United States of America. No shit it's going to have a US bias, it's written by an American for American audiences. Sure Symbian may be the dominant worldwide platform right now, but this article is about the potential future. Smartphones are still predominantly the realm of business users, but that is changing. Apple is currently the best poised to help push consumer-level adoption.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[profplump]

Quick guide to iPhoneExchange integration:
Step 1: Turn on IMAP support.
Step 2: There is no step 2.

Seriously, complaining that the iPhone doesn't have MAPI support is like complaining that DOS doesn't read files on 400k floppies formatted with MFS.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[letxa2000]

Why would they need a physical keypad? Is it hard to use the touchscreen?

Yes.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[letxa2000]

If the iPhone just had a nice slide-out keyboard somewhere, almost all of my gripes with the iPhone would fade away.

Indeed, if that were the case I would give up my Treo for an IPhone. But reality being what it is, I wouldn't give up my Treo 650 up for an IPhone. It's a pretty package but it's not practical for me. And that is, in large part, because of the lack of a tactile keypad.

Now that you mention it (actually, now that *I* mention it), I'd give up my iPod Nano for something virtually identical that had real buttons for navigating the songs and changing the volume. I love the form factor of the Nano when I'm biking, but I *hate* the lack of buttons. If I'm riding and a song is too loud, I usually just take the headphones off until the song is done. The alternative is stopping by bike, adjusting the volume, and then having to repeat that when the loud song is over. Trying to adjust the volume while reading my bike is downright dangerous.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[GeffDE]

While some physical phone keyboards are nice, and that tactile feedback is great for some, I find that after even moderate use, the keys start to get sticky. This has happened to every phone I have had; it happens regularly to others I know that use their keyboards a lot, especially for texting. At that point, when it is physically hard to move the keys to do what you want them to do (and when the input becomes flaky as well), the iPhone keyboard would be an improvement even if the keys were only a centimeter square.

Despite this trend, I have never heard a proponent of physical keyboard ever discuss having this problem; I find this hard to believe as the more heavily a keyboard is used, the harder it gets to use, in my experience. Do you find this is the case? As your keyboard ages, does it become harder to type? Do you have a care regimen for it? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, as this is honestly something that has bugged me.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Noble Kiwi]

U.S.-centric? How about Caltrain-centric?

My daily Caltrain commute reveals massive iPhone domination achieved in less than one year, in the only market that matters! Not so long ago, it was all Blackberries and Treos.

http://flashburrito.com/

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Eli Gottlieb]

Nah, it's just that the cellphone market has been catering to 17-year-old girls.

I'm a 19-year-old male, and all I want my phone to do is make calls and, just as importantly, receive calls. I have a laptop that does email, music (so does my iPod), video (so does my iPod), gaming, and document editing.

Fuck expensive convergence devices. The iPhone is only really interesting because of its user interface.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[His Shadow]

It helps that they understand Marketing extremely well.

It helps more that the iPhone makes the competition look sick. Seriously. Everyone else had 25 years to do something slick with the cell phone. Why is it that when Apple leads the way (again) so much ink is spilled trying to defend the status quo, and or trying to pretend that the iPhone is selling simply because of marketing?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Keypads are a solved problem. This is not a new technology. You can use a good old HP-10C every day solid for 20+ years without any age issues. Just replace the batteries, wipe it down once every five years or so with a damp cloth, and don't drop it onto concrete too often.

Keyboards get old and stick only because the designer decided to save a buck in manufacturing costs. There really is no other excuse.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Orange Crush]

Not at the moment. It's got full bluetooth support in the hardware--it's just firmware crippled--so I don't see any reason it can't be added with an update . . . but I doubt it's a priority for Apple, so you're stuck waiting for a hack (if someone hasn't created on already).

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[LKM]

Basically, I can't type on the iPhone in portrait mode. In landscape, I can usually peck my way using index fingers, either one handed holding the phone in the other hand, or two handed if a lay the phone on a surface. Typing with thumbs (the preferred method of all bberry users) is simply not possible. I find that hard to believe. Do you attempt to spell correctly at first attempt, or do you use the iPhone's auto-correction? I have large hands, too, and while the iPhone often gets single letters wrong, it typically manages to figure out the word I was trying to write anyways. Perhaps you should try to stop worry about single wrong letters?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[funkdancer]

Here's a hint: RIM is only a player in push-mail smartphones. Thanks for clearing that up! As an Australian/Norwegian person, my first thoughts were... "what the hell is (a) RIM?".

My second thought was, "what the hell is an iPhone?". Actually, that was mainly in jest, but you can't buy those non-3G things legitimately here --- and they're non-3G --- so why bother.

(Yours Truly is patiently waiting for the N96 to be released so that I have a proper Symbian smartphone with an awesome camera, lots of storage and a 3G connection for my N810 tablet to bluetooth into.)

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

I owned an iPhone for 4 months, and typing on it is not "extremely easy". Not unless you consider punching in URLs "easy".

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[mvdwege]

Yes, and the New York Times, supposedly the pinnacle of American journalism, used the term world-wide. As parent said, lazy journalism. Which is what set me off.

Don't be so fucking stupid. Your UID suggests you can do better.

Mart

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[mvdwege]

You just proved the point: the only thing the iPhone has over the competition is slick looks, in actual useful features it is below par. And you buy it as if it is a huge advantage. Given the context (business use), this is a prime example of someone drinking the Marketing Kool-Aid.

Mart

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[AuMatar]

If you're expected to make so many mistakes that the device has to try and guess and correct your mistakes, the device is utterly broken.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[JohnnyBGod]

OK, now try to touch-type while you're doing something else and not looking at the screen. It's exactly the same reason why I don't like "smart" message writing (i.e. T9).

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone tried one-handed typing on touch-screen phones? That's the hardest part, I think.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anpheus]

Is it still utterly broken if the message is delivered as it was intended to be written?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[malsdavis]

I am a fan of the iPhone, but even I must admit, typing on it is definitely not as easy as on phones with real keypads.

I used to type at least twice as fast (if not more) on my old Nokia. I do love my iPhone, but I find myself calling rather than texting people because like Nullav, I miss the "tactile feedback" of a normal keypad.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[LKM]

How is it broken if the text on the screen ends up saying the thing I intended to type?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[dintech]

I find that after even moderate use, the keys start to get sticky.

Nice to see someone is using their monthly data quota for something. :)

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[David Gerard]

Dude. They can get pr0n on their work phone!

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

And this gives you Calendar integration, push-email and contacts from your Exchange exactly how?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[darthflo]

s/8830/8310 and I second all of that post.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[rho]

Anytime I've ever thought "I wish this thing did...(fill in the blank)" it turns out that it did do what I wanted, I just never knew it.

Display HTML emails in a readable way.

BBSmart's Email Viewer turned that around, but it certainly isn't built-in. The next rev is supposed to address it, though.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using these keyboards for years, and I've never had a problem with sticky keys...Maybe don't eat so many cheetos while typing an e-mail?

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[JohnBailey]

Why would they need a physical keypad? Is it hard to use the touchscreen? Not when sitting at a desk or in a coffee house or something, But when riding in the back of a taxi, on a train or standing in a tube train and replying to an email, in a word...yes.

Physical keypads have the advantage in speed and precision. A well designed thumb pad is going to beat a touch keyboard every time. Plus, lots of people who use a crackberry as a business tool will be very sensitive to any change in the use. It doesn't matter if it is better or not, different is undesirable.

Personally, I prefer the Graffiti input that Palm use/used for text input on a PDA sized device. Easier than squinting at a tiny keyboard, and more accurate than the handwriting recognition system others use. I can write reasonably fast and accurately, and I did use it as my main means of using email for about a month. But in comparison to a real keyboard, forget it.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[JaredOfEuropa]

I personally don't give a fuck about ringtones or cameras or the ability to play mp3s/videos/games on my phone. At all.

Different strokes for different folks! I too am a business centric user. Personally, I consider the following features of my phone to be must-haves, more or less in that order:
- Making calls
- Calendar
- Address book
- Notepad

I do not care much for email, certainly not business emails. I get too many of those as it is, and I prefer to set aside a few minutes a few times a day to clear my inbox and trash each mail or turn it into an action item (a la Getting Things Done). Push email will simply kill me.

I too laughed at these extra features of the newer phones, especially cameras. But I found myself using the camera from time to time (making snaps of whiteboards mostly). I've use the GPS / TomTom software when visiting cities or driving around other countries. The email function is handy to read / write short personal mails on holiday so I don't have to go into a web cafe. I've even used my phone's browser to do quick price checks or the like when shopping. I still have a separate iPod for listening to music, but if my phone can take on that task as well, why not? One less thing to carry around.

None of these functions are life-savers, but they sure are handy, especially since I am always carrying that phone with me anyway. They might be nice-to-haves, but some of them are very nice.

I like the Windows Mobile platform for its versatility, good integration with Outlook (which is what most businesses use), and for doing a reasonable job at what it is supposed to do. WM6 is pretty stable too... the only problem I have with the platform is the GUI's piss-poor performance, and that is where the iPhone shines. If the new iPhone will indeed offer UMTS and GPS, it might tip the scales enough for me to pick one up.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[GeffDE]

It happens though. It is a reality; I have not found a phone with a physical keyboard that does not begin to degrade in quality after about 6 months of light web browsing and fairly heavy texting. There are many people proclaiming the superiority of the physical keyboard, but none of them ever mention this. Tactile feedback is nice, but oftentimes, phone keyboards invade into a territory I call tactile resistance.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Registered Coward v2]

Quick guide to iPhoneExchange integration:
Step 1: Turn on IMAP support.
Step 2: There is no step 2. First of all, IMAP is not exchange integration - all it gives you is the ability to pull email to a device. In addition, some companies don't enable IMAP, for whatever reason.

Exchange integration puts contacts, calender, and ideally tasks as well as push email on your device. It lets you use your phone as your mobile scheduler and task manager without having to physically synch to a computer.

Seriously, complaining that the iPhone doesn't have MAPI support is like complaining that DOS doesn't read files on 400k floppies formatted with MFS. Well, until the iPhone really synchs with exchange it is not nearly as useful as a Blackberry / Treo / WM device for many businesses.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd prefer a company that didn't bullshit me around about how much things cost, but that's just me.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[LostMyPassword]

I agree with this. I have an iPhone; and after a day or two, I was flying around on the keyboard. My speed is definitely improved when I don't have to physically push down a key to convey input. The only situation in which I would prefer tactile feedback, is when I'm entering a password. The spellchecker on the phone is very good for the most part, and it's my indicator of what I'm doing right or wrong. However, when I'm typing a password, I lose that luxury and must pay notice to each letter I'm pressing.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[emag]

For all its other faults, the Sidekick 3's keyboard has been great for the past 2ish years, and that includes a several month period where my phone was the only available internet access I had outside work.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Lars T.]

You just proved the point: the only thing the iPhone has over the competition is slick looks, in actual useful features it is below par. And you buy it as if it is a huge advantage. Given the context (business use), this is a prime example of someone drinking the Marketing Kool-Aid.

Mart IOW: Your phone is a better business phone than the iPhone because not only does it have an FM radio built in, its also near impossible using that radio.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[kellyb9]

You're actually complaining that the an article in the New York Times is too U.S. centric? I know bashing the US will surely get you modded up, as I'm sure defending them will surely get me modded down, but you have to look at the sources that are cited.

As an aside, I don't think Apple is a good fit for this market. Aside from the obvious security holes, they will have to play nice with Microsoft Outlook. They've played nice with Microsoft in the past, and I think they can in this instance. Also - I think a business version of the iPhone will first require a redesign. Just my opinion, Apple is good at making products that fill a specific niche in the market. They create products that are designed to fill one specific need, instead of creating one product that fills all needs.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try typing more than a couple of sentances... like 3 pages of legalese. And the dictionary doesn't help much dealing in foreign languages. Nor with company names.

Oh, and try typing without looking... Or with one hand.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[PachmanP]

Apple's iPhone GUI has no comptetitors at the moment.
And they probably won't because they like to patent doing basic things "with a touchscreen". The only way to get around those will be with really clunky interfaces which won't compare to the iphone which will reinforce the apple mythos...

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, I have a Treo and I decided to pick up and try an iPhone AND followed the advice of multitudes of people that say "Trust the auto correct" and within 3 minutes I was typing with speed that rivaled a full size keyboard with excellent accuracy. The auto-correct makes the iPhone virtual keyboard a wonderful thing!

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[gtx]

I find HTML emails to only be an issue if they're laden with images (and therefore advertisements)

Except for those fuckers that use "stationery" in MS Outlook Express.

-c

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[vux984]

OK, now try to touch-type while you're doing something else and not looking at the screen.

I can't do that effectively on anything but a regular keyboard. Blackberry, Palm, iPhone... I have to look at the keyboard on all of them...

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[LucidBeast]

If I sat and thought about it, I could come up with lots more. It's functional, but painful to use. The nicest app on there is one I downloaded: Google maps. I agree with you on some of those things, but at least you could download Google maps for it and other stuff.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[AuMatar]

Because more often than not it won't. Its not going to be able to correct non-common acronyms, abbreviations, or last names. Its going to pick the wrong versions of similar sounding words (its vs it's). Its a hack on top of a broken system thats extremely fragile.

The sad thing is this could have been avoided quite simply- include a fucking *STYLUS*. The device touchscreens are meant to be used by, and which gives you the accuracy needed. But no, Jobs wanted his POS to be used by fingers only. Fucking moron.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[david_thornley]

Oddly enough, the phone calls, email, and browser are what I primarily use my iPhone for, and I'm very happy with it. The other functions are often useful. A camera turns out to be more useful than you might think at odd times, and the fact that it's also an iPod is nice sometimes.

I don't think you'd care for the YouTube button any more than I do, though.

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[mvdwege]

Yes, I am complaining about that. I am however not surprised at the provincial reactions here on Slashdot. If even the fine fleur of your journalism uses 'world-wide market' when talking about the U.S. market only, don't be surprised if the rest of the world reacts with scorn.

And if you can't distinguish bashing American Journalism from bashing the United States, then the dumbing-down effects of your media on your population are, IMO, proven.

Mart

Re:The world is not the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as we continue to use BlackBerries, it's still safe to tell a co-worker to "RIM" you without getting charged with sexual harassment.

iphones

[perlchild]

The iphone, warts and all, appears to be an actual platform. It's actually usable. Every blackberry owner I've seen so far sees it as a mail client, there are very few third party apps and they're not widely known.

The iphone will have third party apps(thanks to the controversy that it didn't) and people will know about them. I'd say that's a good reason to worry at RIM.

I'll miss my palm when my company gets to me, but I hope they replace the blackberries they have with iphones, not force the blackberries onto us.

Re:iphones

[NMerriam]

The iphone, warts and all, appears to be an actual platform. It's actually usable. Every blackberry owner I've seen so far sees it as a mail client, there are very few third party apps and they're not widely known.

I think that's the key to the "battle". While RIM and Symbian are powerhouses from a corporate standpoint, they've never had the crossover attraction that Palm had and WinCE has to a lesser degree -- lots of useful third-party apps that make you want to carry it with you in your personal life, not just when your job tells you to.

Re:iphones

[maglor_83]

Though I can't speak for RIM, Symbian has LOADS of third party software.

Re:iphones

[johnpaul191]

I agree. I know maybe one person that bought a blackberry on their own. Most people bought Treos, and that's shifting to iPhones as they upgrade.
I did notice a lot of people that bought iPhones had previously owned a standard phone. They were aware that things like a Treo existed, but never took the plunge. From my observation they use the email and web browser extensively.... not just the built-in iPod functionality.
For the record, i do know a lot of freelancers in a few different fields, so having constant access to email can make the difference in getting a job, or keeping a client happy.

Re:iphones

[Anonymous Coward]

"The iphone, warts and all, appears to be an actual platform. It's actually usable."

More importantly, it's OS is based on the same code as Mac OSX. In other words, it's actually _programmable_ as well as usable.

This is a huge plus over Symbian, where everyone I've talked to who's tried to program with J2ME says it's the worst platform they've ever used. I know it's anecdotal evidence from my little corner of the academic world... but if you take a look at Apple's march SDK event where they had several companies present usable apps after having had the SDK for less than a handful of days, you have to agree that Apple's got something good going.

And that's even before you consider the financial aspect... the simple, flat $100+30% scheme Apple has just leaves the astoundingly ridiculous signing costs and requirements for Symbian & J2ME in the dust.

Apple is doing everything they can to set up a *platform* ... it's good for programmers, good for users, not necessarily tied to any cellular protocol (ie, iPod Touch), and they aren't in the app business to suck everyone dry. While it might be a smidge ahead of its time in the US due to our sucky wireless coverage, a good platform would likely find a nice home in the worldwide market.

PS Has anyone else realized that the ha-ha-look-at-the-silly-apple-and-their-iphone attitude all the Symbian and RIM folks have is scarily similar to the one that all the creative folks had 6 years ago?

Re:iphones

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on crack man? My N95 has all sorts of apps available for it (and most apps crossover to different models just fine). And I thought my Treo had allot of applications available for it. At least Symbian is far easier to code for than Treo. Thats all I gota say on that.

Re:iphones

[NMerriam]

Certainly compared to most any other phone platform, Symbian has a huge 3rd party software base. But compared to Pocket PC/Windows Mobile or Palm before the breakup, it's still fairly professional and geek oriented.

Of course, you could rightly ask how many different calendar apps or video players or hentai strip poker games someone really needs on a platform. I think the expectation is that the iPhone will be able to encompass more of the traditionally PDA-bound software that doesn't work so well on small smartphones, as well completely new entertainment and connectivity software (since iPhone apps can be more experimental about data transmission than apps tied to pay-per-kb hardware). The Apple gateway on the iTunes store and the $100 initiation fee will certainly put that theory to the test, it will be interesting to say the least.

Re:iphones

[Tyr_7BE]

"lots of useful third-party apps that make you want to carry it with you in your personal life, not just when your job tells you to"

I don't understand this. People are always going on about how the blackberry is lacking all these third party apps, but really, I can't think of anything that mine doesn't do that I would want it to do. Using my blackberry that my work gives me, I can:

-browse the web
-listen to my music
-create/view multimedia
-send/receive email in real time
-use IM
-make/receive phone calls
-find my way around with GPS

I've stopped carrying around my normal cell phone in favour of my 8110. I use it literally 24 hours a day (even during the night, as an alarm clock). At any given time I'm probably on the phone, casually pinging emails back and forth with friends and family, chatting on IM, looking something up on the web, or en route to somewhere listening to music. I pretty much can't think of anything I would want to do that it doesn't already do. So why all this stigma? What are these 3rd party apps that everyone is going on about that this device is so lacking?

Re:iphones

[Anonymous Coward]

The iphone, warts and all, appears to be an actual platform. It's actually usable. Every blackberry owner I've seen so far sees it as a mail client, there are very few third party apps and they're not widely known.

You gotta be kidding. While email is the killer app of the blackberry, with solid encryption and immediate push, there are lots of applications for the blackberry, and there have been for years.

The fact that RIM makes available a fully-documented SDK for free, and has done so for years, certainly helps app development. Apple may have the coolness factor, but that's about it.

Re:iphones

[rickb928]

Well, my 7105t runs a few handy applications that I like:

- Google Mobile Maps 2.x,which BTW sucks bigtime. My Location has improved nothing, but I digress.

- MidpSSH, a clever and useful SSH client. I can work with my Fedora box quite nicely, though it does have its drawbacks. Much better than nothing!

- Gmail. Almost as cool as push mail. In fact, I may ditch BlackBerry and use Gmail as a semi-push client. It runs background and pulls mail as it appears.

- Texas Hold'em King II, which isn't oficially on my BlackBerry of course.

Apps do exist, though most are Java apps.

Now, the iPhone will have lotsa apps. How many will be business-centered? A push/pull email client, reasonable mobile mapping app, and VPN, as many point out. The challenge will be for Apple to accomodate the secure corporate server attachment.

Most importantly, however, is making deals with carriers, cause carriers LOVE BlackBerry business. Less churn, less pressure on pricing, and less trouble, since the email servers for a BES subscriber aren't even the carriers!

The iPhone will need to do things either like the BlackBerry (patent smackdown guaranteed) or similar enough to be indistinguishable.

If I'm RIM, all I want to do is deploy a touchscreen model and add features. And be prepared to defend patents.

Oh, and be sure RIM is part of the NYCWiN. Important market, proof of concept, model for other cities, etc.

Re:iphones

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'll miss my palm

Wanka

Re:iphones

[Rovaani]

While RIM and Symbian are powerhouses from a corporate standpoint, they've never had the crossover attraction that Palm had and WinCE has to a lesser degree -- lots of useful third-party apps that make you want to carry it with you in your personal life, not just when your job tells you to.

Umm, what? The Symbian 3rd-party software ecosystem is quite healthy despite the somewhat draconian signing issues. Considering that at the moment you have to jailbreak your iPhone to get any meaningful amount of software into it, self-signing a symbian application (which I've never had to do, btw.) is quite insignificant.

Re:iphones

[Eunuchswear]

Apples & oranges.

You shouldn't compare programming in J2ME to the iPhone SDK, you should be using the Symbian API directly.

J2ME is for when you want your app to run on non-Symbian phones.

Re:iphones

[Eunuchswear]

(or if you don't like C++ just do it in Python).

* Symbian C++ for "native applications" provides the richest set of capabilities
                    o Access: to over 20,000 APIs to provide compelling applications using technologies such as WiFi, GPS, DVB-H, HSDPA, IMS, multi-megapixel cameras, multi-GB storage, biometrics, industry leading security, 3D hardware accelerated graphics, tilt-sensors, DNLA and uPnP (Universal Plug and Play), demand paging, VoIP and much more...
                    o Integration: complete integration into the phones user experience
                    o Performance: native applications span a much wider range of categories and command a higher price
        * P.I.P.S. is POSIX on Symbian OS provides Standard C libraries for enhanced portability and re-use of existing C code and components
        * Java, Ruby, Python, Perl, OPL, and FlashLite sit on top of the existing architecture with limited access to the code libraries.These programming languages allow for porting between the various user interfaces that are based on Symbian OS and therefore allow for a larger audience reach.Additionally the graphics capabilities are highly suited to games and entertainment applications
        * .NET is C# and Visual Basic on Symbian OS and popular for enterprise applications
        * Browser based applications (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, AJAX, Widgets) and improved browsing experience on latest smartphones, allow information (e.g. standard pages and RSS feeds) as well as Web 2.0 applications to easily be targeted to mobile devices as well as the desktop
        * Browser based applications (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, AJAX, Widgets) allow access to pop mail as well as online calendars and applications such as m.facebook.com and goosync which will match your Symbian Smartphone calendar with your gmail calendar. All Symbian smartphones can support a full web browser with rich 'full web' functionality

Re:iphones

[Admiral Ag]

That's all well and good, but overlooks the obvious flaw. The Blackberry is primarily a phone that can be extended to other capabilities. But it is still a phone with a phone UI.

The iPhone is really a Newton with a phone in it. It's designed primarily as a mobile computing platform. The iPhone UI gives developers greater freedom. It's quite likely that the killer app for iPhones/iTouches hasn't even been thought of yet.

If as rumoured, the 3G iPhone with GPS is released in June, the blackberry market will be limited to Apple haters and luddite companies until RIM can produce a multitouch BB.

As someone said above, it's the UI. Every other phone or mobile device might as well be steam powered in comparison.

Re:iphones

[DrLang21]

I don't think too many people are buying Blackberries for Internet access (as in other than for e-mail use). In the corporate world, the whole point of the Blackberry is to be another tool to stay in communication in a world that is more and more using e-mail and network run scheduling tools. The corporate world needs a portable e-mail client. The fact that I have my e-mail and schedule immediately at my fingertips wherever I go has put a corporate leash on me like no iPhone ever could.

Re:iphones

[Anonymous Coward]

>Certainly compared to most any other phone platform,
>Symbian has a huge 3rd party software base. But compared
>to Pocket PC/Windows Mobile or Palm before the breakup,
>it's still fairly professional and geek oriented.

Friend showed me her new iPhone. I had never used one, but was quickly navigating and browsing and using it handily. She remarked that I must be a guru or something, because I can so quickly learn how to use her new toy.

I explained that, no, I use it so easily because it's just like my desktop system (more or less). It's no more geek oriented than any other Mac OS, and I hear is far closer to a desktop system than WinMobile is to Vista/XP from the perspective of a regular computer user. I've never tried Symbian, and had a brief stint with Palm - it's always learning a new system, specific to the handheld utility or phone feature and, IMO, somewhat narrow.

The iPhone removes the need to learn how to use a new computer (if your a Mac user) just to use a PIM and phone combo device, and provides the non-geek user with familiarity and "computer utility" they can recognize. Even if the user is not familiar with MacOS, it can be picked up as quickly on the iPhone as on the desktop.

IMO, that is.

Dont forget...

[gigne]

HTC make plenty of excellent Smartphones. A lot of companies are giving their staff these Windows Mobile devices as they are cheap and have push email from an Exchange server.

Not particularly a fan of Windows mobile, but it does the job well enough to make this a 3 horse race.

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

HTC make plenty of excellent Smartphones.

I agree. I'm very happy with the HTC Mogul PPC-6800 phone, which overcame my dislike of Windows Mobile devices. Too bad they chose a name like "Mogul", though. It makes me feel as if mere telephony has me trodding on oppressed classes.

Still, I am looking forward to coming developments in the smartphone field. I'd like to be the type who uses only Free software, and I wish we could reach the point where that could be done with no loss of efficiency or ease of use.

By the way, did Slashdot just go down for anyone else for the last hour or so?

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how about including #1 smartphone manufacturer, Nokia? I've never seen _anyone_ using any of those '3 horses', ever. I'd say all three of those are not that well known outside USA.

Re:Dont forget...

[donstenk72]

By the way, did Slashdot just go down for anyone else for the last hour or so?

Are you writing from your mogul windows smartphone by any chance?

Re:Dont forget...

[donstenk72]

Your right. I see the occasional Blackberry and Windows Mobile nowadays in Italy, but the serious workhorse of choice seems to be Nokia E series and the communicator.

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't Nokia Symbian powered?

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 6800, and it has not overcome my hatred of Windows Mobile devices.... because I had the displeasure of using its predecessor, the 6700.

That piece of shit got me in trouble because it took the weekend off once when I was on-call. Oh, it LOOKED like it was happily on the network, but it wasn't... and I missed alerts about downed servers. I also had to frequently reboot it before I could make a phone call.

I got my Mogul because accidentally dropped the 6700... serendipitously enough, into a nice deep slush puddle in the gutter after the last snowstorm in my area. When I dried it out it wouldn't work anymore.

I had a sweet time smashing the fuck out of that thing when I got the replacement. Verrrrrry therapeutic.

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

yes i was getting 503s

Re:Dont forget...

[Urthwhyte]

I just finished rolling out around 10 HTC devices to a Real Estate office, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies. Anyways, with the release of newer and cheaper devices like the Excalibur, which I believe is sold in the US as the Dash, a lot more small businesses are using them because it's more or less plug and play with the existing Exchange infrastructure. I'm not going to argue and say that WinMo can't be buggy and slow, but properly tweaked it has blown every other platform I've used out of the water, which includes Series 60, Series 80, Palm OS 5, and a BlackBerry.

Re:Dont forget...

[maglor_83]

Yes.

Re:Dont forget...

[Udo Schmitz]

HTC make plenty of excellent Smartphones. As an HTC-phone owner I'd say: No. Hardwarewise they are at best of medium quality.

Not particularly a fan of Windows mobile, but it does the job well enough to make this a 3 horse race. My twoyear-experience with Windows mobile is what makes me want to get an iPhone. Unfotunately prices and contracts in Germany suck, so it will be a grey US-import for me with jailbreaking. I'm just waiting for the new model ...

Re:Dont forget...

[darthflo]

If you can manage to purchase a german iPhone without signing a contract, you might want to wait for a few more (days|weeks); according to some rumors the price may soon drop to â99.

Re:Dont forget...

[Udo Schmitz]

If you can manage to purchase a german iPhone without signing a contract, you might want to wait for a few more (days|weeks); according to some rumors the price may soon drop to â99. No, you can't get the iPhone from T-Mobile Germany without signing a contract. And this is no rumor, the 99 Euro offer is the 8GB model and available for weeks already ...

Re:Dont forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that AT&T's 3G is incompatible with the 3G networks you'll find in Europe, right?

That's another huge barrier between me (in the US) buying European imports. You can get quad band GSM, but AT&T's UTMS is incompatible with European UTMS which will also be incompatible with T-Mobile USA's upcoming UTMS. So, unless they start making phones that support all 3 (unlikely, given the state of the carriers in the US)...

Re:Dont forget...

[Udo Schmitz]

No, I didn't know that. I'll still wait, even if the 3G-iPhone isn't usable for me, the 1st Gen. iPhone prize may come down ...

New jobs

[mistersooreams]

So, with this expansion in the market, there should be a whole lot more RIM jobs available. Err, and Apple jobs. Obviously.

Re:New jobs

[Telepathetic Man]

Or the Google jobs. What?! Not funny? Bah, you mods suck. Look up alternative, surreal and/or dead pan humor on Wikipedia, you nerds!

And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[morgan_greywolf]

Yet Apple executives have said that one-third of Fortune 500 companies were interested in giving iPhones â" with all their known and potential security holes â" to their employees. My guess is that someone at Apple is either pulling this out of their arse, or it's from some sort of survey of Fortune 500 executives -- most of which, even the Cx0s (where x is in [IT]) -- have very little knowledge of IT in general.

Most of their IT people -- those with real IT knowledge -- would be telling them "No, no. Bad plan. No internal central management, no internal patch management, doesn't fit our security model, bad, bad, bad!!!"

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of their IT people -- those with real IT knowledge

Dude... If people with "real IT knowledge" [sic], whatever that means, had really any effect on decision making, do you really think the IT landscape would be the same as it is today in, say, these Fortune 500 companies?

"doesn't fit our security model"

Do you think that having 80% of the Fortune 500 infected by malware and having PCs part of botnets "fit a security model"?

If the CxO wants 'x' because it is shiny, he shall have it. If the CxO wants Windows because Bill Gates is the richest man in the world and he has seen an ad about how Vista was going to solve all the world's problem, the company shall use Vista.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Tony Hoyle]

What they probably said was they'd consider trialling it, which is only fair. Give one or two employees them for a few days and if they come back to your office begging for their blackberries back you end the trial right there.

I'm surprised the figure is so low - it means that 2/3rds of fortune 500 companies wouldn't even consider a trial.. and that's gotta hurt.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone remember how "IT people with IT knowledge" forced migrations to Windows in min 90's, promising cheaper, better supported, homogenous solution despite users' outrage of the forced migration [a famous example was NASA Goddard SFC forced migration]?. The end result was sloppy insecure networks infested with malwares, a ballooning IT staff, more expensive solution despite cheaper initial cost, longer downtime, less productive users and so on. Now, I am not saying that all IT people are bad, but many of the so-called "IT people with real IT knowledge" only understood Windows and MSCE certified and did everything they could to stay on the job relying only on their Microsoft credentials.

I am weary of any statement expounding on "IT people with real IT knowledge" because it normally means IT people with a singular expertise, most likely Windows. There has got to be a solution where there is a balance between IT people trying to protect users from their own selves, IT job security, the productivity of the users and the profitability of the company.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[phillymjs]

My guess is that someone at Apple is either pulling this out of their arse, or it's from some sort of survey of Fortune 500 executives

Actually, it's from their quarterly earnings conference call last week. Apple reported that over one-third of the Fortune 500 has applied to Apple's iPhone 2.0 beta Enterprise program, along with over 400 higher-education institutions.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at firmware 2.0 - it addresses a lot of those concerns, with features such as remote data erasing, exchange, etc.

About the same as a blackberry, really.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Anonymous Coward]

What they probably said was they'd consider trialling it, which is only fair. Give one or two employees them for a few days and if they come back to your office begging for their blackberries back you end the trial right there. You don't need the SDK to trial use the iPhone. Having an interest in the SDK means they at least have an interest to try and develop solutions on the platform. That is, it's not just giving it to an employee or two to see if he likes it more than a blackberry but to developers to see the feasibility creating apps on it.

I'm surprised the figure is so low - it means that 2/3rds of fortune 500 companies wouldn't even consider a trial.. and that's gotta hurt. Why? What's so hurtful about it? Unless you are blinded by Apple-hatred, you'd realize that 1/3 of F500 express an interest in a beta product. Chances are the rest simply don't want to work with beta software. 166.667 of the biggest companies in the US pay attention to a beta product is a very good start.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[Anonymous Coward]

My company is in the Beta, and believe me, we're the last one's you'd expect. iphone is here to stay. RIM doesn't need to worry today/tomorrow, but a year or two out, it's going to be in trouble. Remember folks, this is a marathon, not a sprint for Apple.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[dreamchaser]

That's exactly what it is. A lot of organizations try out various technologies. It doesn't reflect interest in a migration to said technology more than just doing some due dilligence.

Re:And how did Aple arrive at this number?

[MachineShedFred]

Well, I'm guessing that Apple arrived at this number by sending 500 surveys to 500 well known companies who get listed in Fortune magazine annually, and getting roughy 167 favorable responses.

You don't state information like that publicly, in an SEC-mandated conference call, without checking it, and rechecking it.

Unless of course, you don't like money, or enjoy lawsuits.

What RIM and Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the European market both RIM and Apple are almost non-existent, I'd guess they got fraction of a percent together. Nokia is who got the smart phone market share here, along with some smaller companies, like Ericsson. After all, a smart phone without 0.5 Mbps+ internet connection, preferably flat fee, sucks when browsing "web 2.0" sites. That's something neither Apple or RIM delivers right now.

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[coren2000]

RIM has had a 3G device for a while. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/01/rim_unveils_3g_blackberry/

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[Tony Hoyle]

It's been said that if Nokia never sold a phone in the US ever again they'd *still* be the largest phone manufacturer in the world.

I've never seen a RIM phone close up and even iphone doesn't seem to be that popular.. I've obviously seen one (I have one, and I sent 3 to australia for my boss and his friends), but it's telling when you're in the pub doing the very blokish thing of comparing phones (bluetoothing ringtones and pictures to each other.. alas I couldn't participate as I had an iphone, which of course started another conversation) and of the 8 people around the table only 2 had even heard of the iphone, and one of those called it 'the one that does the flip thing'.

It can be rather telling hanging around non-geeks sometimes...

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[Tony Hoyle]

btw. don't count out other players like Motorolla and LG. LG especially have come from nowhere in the last year to some of the nicest phones I've ever played with. Which reminds me I meed to have a play with the viewty some day...

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[socsoc]

I kinda think Nokia hasn't sold a phone in the US since the 5160... at least not one that was widely adopted. My UK friends indicate that Nokia is still popular, but you coulda fooled me. Crackberries (and iPhones on more of a consumer scale) rule the states' smartphone market.

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[gtx]

Eh, Motorola products just suck. I've owned nearly every moto handset from the MicroTAC to the RAZR and they just went right to shit somewhere around the 710. I didn't learn my lesson until after the 815. Motorola can't be trusted to make a stable product anymore.

On the other hand, LG's been making great hardware for years now. They put out Verizon's first camera phone five years ago (the vx6000.)

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[socsoc]

Because you mention Verizon, I'm assuming you live in a country where they generally lock handsets to a particular provider (ie the states), so... My SLVR L7 (imported so it's unlocked and I have yet to see another one with the same build quality) works quite well. I've had it for a long time and abuse the hell outta it. With all the monsterpacks available for flashing, I am really happy with my (originally vodafone) mobile used on att's gsm network. I wouldn't blame the handset manufacturers, but the network operators for requiring shitty handsets with minimal features. Moto hasn't made a good flip phone since the startac, but that isn't their fault, it's the underlying fault of clamshells, gimme a candy bar design anyday.

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[gtx]

I've seen some nice Moto imports, but we don't get them here. I wonder if perhaps the firmware developers overseas are more competent than the retards that make US moto products.

I'd probably agree on the startac.

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[socsoc]

I'm pretty sure they are tards... US mobile networks and the devices they spec out are pretty much the bottom of the barrel and embarrassing. I really hoped the 700mhz auction would be a cataclysm and maybe it will, but I doubt it. No wonder we swarmed to the iPhone while the rest of the world said wtf it's not 3g?

Re:What RIM and Apple?

[egghat]

If you look at the smartphone market only, RIMs and Apples market share isn't that low ...

Market share of smartphones worldwide

Well it is low, but more than a fraction of a percent.

And you'll always have to consider the fact, that a lot of Smybian smartphones are sold in Europe that aren't used as a smartphone. Phones are heavily subsidized in Europe and people tend to get the best model that still doesn't cost a dime. Well they get a Symbian Series 60 smartphone, but never install even a single application.

Like the Blackberries, but they get at least an email app preinstalled ...

Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[Wrath0fb0b]

Yeah, it's a goofy name and it runs Windows Mobile but I've really taken a liking to it. EVDO kicks the shit out of EDGE (with RevA, I have clocked 1Mb/s) and built-in GPS is a real convenience. No push email, but you can have it query Exchange, IMAP or POP3 every 5 minutes if you like. The keyboard is also quite useful, IMO.

More important than the hardware, however, is the huge library of 3rd party software that is written for WinMo. I've never been unable to find an application that does what I want. Add to it the fact that it's pretty easy to jump in and write your own code (C++ or C#, your choice) and it adds up to a very appealing package.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Titan

Re:Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[zbend]

I thought it did have data push (Microsoft Direct Push) from exchange, no?

Re:Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[Urthwhyte]

More or less every WM device circa 2006 has DirectPush baked right in, AFAIK it's impossible to remove it from the OS as it's built into ActiveSync, which is the client used for syncing with the desktop.

Re:Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[insanius]

ditto....rev A is amazing as is the GPS....WinMo is THE mobile platform at the moment IMHO...the sheer number of excellent freeware apps is astounding

i also have noticed a significant performance increase after upgrading to WM 6.1...i would highly recommend trying it if you haven't already....search ppcgeekz.com's forums for info...

honestly, this phone is a laptop/navigation replacement....

Re:Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[ChewyBarz]

Yeah, it's a goofy name and it runs Windows Mobile but I've really taken a liking to it. EVDO kicks the shit out of EDGE (with RevA, I have clocked 1Mb/s) and built-in GPS is a real convenience. No push email, but you can have it query Exchange, IMAP or POP3 every 5 minutes if you like. The keyboard is also quite useful, IMO. More important than the hardware, however, is the huge library of 3rd party software that is written for WinMo. I've never been unable to find an application that does what I want. Add to it the fact that it's pretty easy to jump in and write your own code (C++ or C#, your choice) and it adds up to a very appealing package. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Titan For push email, check out www.seven.com. Awesome app, and free to consumers...

Re:Quite happy with my HTC Titan

[Anonymous Coward]

the tytn does support push mail. from the wikipedia article you linked to: "For email connectivity, the HTC TyTN supports Microsoft's DirectPush push e-mail solution, as well as BlackBerry services with applications provided by BlackBerry-partnered carriers."

Consider the sauce.

[xerxesVII]

Yet Apple executives have said that one-third of Fortune 500 companies were interested in giving iPhones - with all their known and potential security holes - to their employees.
Yet xerxesVII has said that one-third of smoking hot women were interested in giving him - with all his known flaws and potential for flatulence - felatio on demand.

That was pretty easy. And the day an executive's opinion on something technical has a positive effect on my opinion, well, that would probably be the day that an executive decides I should have a raise. But otherwise, I don't trust the higher ups' views of anything.

What's the big deal about smartphones?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a 30 year old male, hardcore geek.. I have a "standard" mobile flip-phone with an unlimited data plan.. I can rapidly text without looking at it.. it plays music, takes pictures, bluetooth, play media files, can transfer data.. it does everything I'd ever want it to do. A few months ago, my employer got some of us Blackberries, and I still GREATLY prefer my old phone to the Blackberry. I keep fat fingering things, I can't text without devoting all of my attention to it, and the UI is just terrible. I for one, don't get the big deal. (And I used an Iphone once, and absolutely hated it. Real buttons are a requirement for me.)

Re:What's the big deal about smartphones?

[RealityThreek]

Your "standard" flip phone is more likely a cheap Java phone. There's a muddled line between a feature phone and a smartphone these days.

Java phones can work great but they suffer from a slow processor and low specs. I really recommend the Pantech Duo if you're looking for an upgraded phone that retains the standard dial pad.

Re:What's the big deal about smartphones?

[johnpaul191]

Email and web browsing. I don't have a desk job, so being able to get emails on my phone is a bonus, and shoot quick replies.
Having a good web browser is kind of awesome for those random moments that you want to look something up. Honestly i will often borrow an iPhone before using the browser on my Treo650.... but i appreciate having one with me.

Re:What's the big deal about smartphones?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can rapidly text How very 20th century...

Smug...

[cmunic8r99]

...Windows Mobile users unite!

Smartphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm.

Where i come from RIM sell 2g email client enabled "phones" with no or limited smart functions.

Where i come from, a little place known as the rest of the world, the real world, or Japan and Europe, a smartphone must come with at least 3 of the below.

2 Camera's, preferably 1 being of questionable quality.
Ability to view footy highlights (soccer, not that rugby basterdisation... yes that was an s not a z)
Ability to make video calls, in theory.
GPS
Touch Screen
Wifi
Full qwerty keyboard
HSDPA
Built in DVB-T tuner.

Which of these do the RIM phones have... oh yes all but the really new ones have about none.

Blackberrys are popular in Europe... but they are not smartphones even to most zealous marketer.

Call me when somone makes a dent in Nokia share in Europe or the share in Japan.

Oh and come to think of it we don't even call them smart phones anymore... unless the run windows... and that's just as a joke due to the similarities with smart bombs.

Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

Wow an article on /. with some misleading information! I'm so surprised.
First let's look at the market share.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

Symbian 65%
Windows Mobile 12%
RIM BlackBerry 11%
IPhone 7%
Linux 5%

Looks like TFA just picked a few from the bottom of the market share list for Q4 '07 and called them the new front runners!
Kinda hard to discount WM with %12, and with Nvidia's new processor for WM (yes it plays quake 3) for mobile phones it's a shoe in as an IPhone killer. Apple keeps locking up their platform more and more: no browsers, music players, applications that run in the background, all because apple doesn't want competition on their phone.

----Digression---
Didn't MS get sued for being a monopoly when it included a browser? Somthing you need if you want to get another browser or anything of the Internet (I guess you can use telnet). They didn't say "no browsers but ours" they just included it for free. Apple specifically states that you can't make a browser on their IPhone OS and everyone looks the other way? What a bunch of bias bullshit.----EODigression---

I think it's way to early to say what "two" big players are going to be left, at this point it's obvious it's not going to just two, there are 4 or 5 or more and I doubt the "big" one's are going to be Apple and RIM, Apple doesnt care a rats ass about security (Safari accepts invalid 3rd party certs 100% of the time, and don't get me started on the IPhone itself.), and RIM's idea of 'PUSH EMAIL' is: "buy this $5000 software from us to give your email server "RIM PUSH EMAIL" and god help you if their racket of a service fails, not to mention their complete lack of hardware innovation in the last decade. IMHO Apple and RIM seem like the least promising.

Re:Biasd and false

[mkiwi]

Wow an article on /. with some misleading information! I'm so surprised.

Yes, because Wikipedia has always been known to be more accurate for this type of data than any other source.

Re:Biasd and false

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda hard to discount WM with %12

I dunno, seems pretty easy to me when it's been out for YEARS, and the ten month-old iPhone already has more than half its marketshare.

Re:Biasd and false

[DurendalMac]

Um, I use Safari, and if it gets a 3rd party cert it can't verify, then it will, by default, notify you and ask if you want to accept it or not. Second, the iPhone is a phone platform with a small percentage of the market, not an OS with over 90% of the market. On top of that, MS got their asses burned by threatening to cut off OEM licenses for anyone who tried to bundle Netscape with their computers. On top of THAT, back then a PC was about the only way you could browse the internet. Now you can do it on your phone, so there are other options and Apple is not trying to keep competitors out because competitors can easily set up browsers on many, many other devices. Try thinking about your argument before you splatter it on the screen.

Re:Biasd and false

[rampant mac]

"Didn't MS get sued for being a monopoly when it included a browser?"

No, they got their asses sued for abusing their monopoly position.

"Somthing you need if you want to get another browser or anything of the Internet (I guess you can use telnet)."

Or they could have let OEMs decide what default browser they wanted to install (before IE became "bundled" with Windows). Instead, they strong-armed them into installing IE or face increased license costs. See my first quote.

"They didn't say "no browsers but ours" they just included it for free."

Wrong. That's exactly what then said to OEM vendors. Then, magically, IE became a integrated part of Windows and removal became "impossible". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/98lite

"Apple specifically states that you can't make a browser on their IPhone OS and everyone looks the other way? What a bunch of bias bullshit."

When Safari is running on +95% of internet devices, you may have a point. Apple isn't a convicted monopolist. Microsoft is. They have to behave differently because of it. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

"They didn't say "no browsers but ours" they just included it for free." Wrong. That's exactly what then said to OEM vendors. Then, magically, IE became a integrated part of Windows and removal became "impossible". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/98lite

You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say "MS says that you can remove their browser" I said they will allow other browsers on their OS. APPLE will NOT allow other browsers, music players, background tasks and a whole slew other other programs just because they want a monopoly on the device.

When Safari is running on +95% of internet devices, you may have a point. Apple isn't a convicted monopolist. Microsoft is. They have to behave differently because of it. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

+95%? where on earth did you get that?
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
IE even at it's height was never 95%. Sure, you exaggerated. It was for the artistic flare of the comment.

And as far as IE being integrated into the shell, did it ever occur to you that it was useful and some people may actually have an opinion that is different from your own.

OEMs not being allowed to bundle things!? I'm not sure what planet you get your OEM computers from, but that's all they seem to be able to do - bundle things - and lots of them. I've never heard of MS specifically saying "we don't allow other browsers" - Maybe they give price breaks to OEMs to promote their products. It's called a free country and last time I checked promoting your product is not against the law. It's the OEM's decision to take the price break or not. It's called buying market share and it's done on a regular basis in every industry, if you don't like it tuff shit.

Don't go around making false claims and certainly don't make it seem like I made a false claim, if you have a link to show me I'm wrong that's one thing, your link just says "You can't uninstall IE", I never said you could, or should, it would be like uninstalling telnet or nslookup, it's just part of the OS, and useful even if you use it to go grab Firefox.

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

I've thought about this argument for a long, long time and Apple locking certain software out because it directly competes with their software IS A BAD THING. If you think locking people out because you don't want to compete is good, then have fun with your IPhone.

Um, I use Safari, and if it gets a 3rd party cert it can't verify, then it will, by default, notify you and ask if you want to accept it or not.

I can make certs all day long on my own cert server and Safari will eat them up! Because the cert isn't issued from a ROOT CERTIFICATE PROVIDER, but rather issued by me, the cert is INVALID as far as confirming the identity of the host! Safari doesn't even have a list of root certificate providers! So in safari when it says "HTTPS" and the cert was issued by "CRACKS.AM" it will look the same as the "HTTPS" when its issued by verisign! Now if this goes over your head, maybe you should read up on it a bit, but don't tell me I'm wrong.

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

Maybe if you attack the references the Wikipedia article made you'd have something there, but a blanket "Wikipedia sucks" statement is lame, attack the idea, not the messenger, or provide proof the message is false, not "you're a poopie pants because you didn't use the reference material I found likeable". I think Wikipedia's reference list is a hell of a lot better than New York Times who just says "...according to IDC, the tracking firm." and cites nothing else or even who IDC is.

Now compare the reference from TFA and the Wikipedia references.

I think it would be safe to say "As far as smartphone market share Wikipedia has better references than TFA". And they got the whole idea for the story from..... APPLE!!! Ya, there's never been bias in Apples reporting of their own statistics ever, they are far more trustworthy with their own stats!

Re:Biasd and false

[pete-classic]

So in safari when it says "HTTPS" and the cert was issued by "CRACKS.AM" it will look the same as the "HTTPS" when its issued by verisign! Now if this goes over your head, maybe you should read up on it a bit, but don't tell me I'm wrong.

You might want to read up yourself, slick. A self-signed certificate is every bit as cryptographically secure as one signed by a big CA. It isn't trusted by the browser for good reason, but the encryption is unaffected.

The site's identity isn't verified by some "trusted" source (e.g. Verisign), but the transmission is every bit as "HTTPS". That's why Safari prompts the user to manually verify the authenticity of the site.

This may be over your head, but if you can't verify the authenticity of the site don't freakin' click "continue"!

-Peter

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

The argument is not if the cypher is secure, it's if the person you're talking to is whom they claim to be.

The whole point of a verified cert is to verify the person with whom you are buying something from can be held accountable for their website's claims. The verification process has different levels, the lowest requiring a active phone number, the highest requiring a tax license and a notarized document from an attorney authenticating your claim to the online business with active fax/mail/email and a valid business licence in the state where you claim to do business. THAT is why it's so VERY important to have a VALID root certificate from a ROOT CERTIFIER! But if root certificates are sooo unimportant why would they exist at all? Why do certs cost money? What's with the authentication process? Why go through all that hassle if you could just make a cert on your own server?

It's about trust, just because you have a cert doesn't mean I should trust you, but if Thawt says you are trustworthy (you passed their authentication process) then I can trust that you will at least return my phone calls. It's about trust: Certificate authority read this and find out WHY people use certificate authorities and WHY every browser, with the exception of safari, relies on root certification lists. Safari's security relies on the user knowing who issues trustworthy certs and who's are just bogus. I can make a cert, I use them internally, but externally I would be laughed at if I made my own cert..

MORE PROOF?!

Every single retail web site uses a trusted certificate authority. Why would they do that? They cost a lot of money. Were they not technically savvy enough to make a cert on their own? Or maybe the chain of trust means something.

Re:Biasd and false

[Anonymous Coward]

I can make certs all day long on my own cert server and Safari will eat them up! Because the cert isn't issued from a ROOT CERTIFICATE PROVIDER, but rather issued by me, the cert is INVALID as far as confirming the identity of the host!

It will? Then why am I getting this and this?

Re:Biasd and false

[Keybounce]

My memory is that Microsoft said,

"Here is an OS upgrade that is designed to make it easy to write browsers with full functionality. However, if you want to use this upgrade in your program, you have to distribute it -- you can't assume that the user has it. And, if you distribute this OS upgrade, then you must also distribute our browser for us. Finally, if you premake systems, you have to include this upgrade, our browser, and its icon on the desktop"

In other words, you have to give our product top billing, and you have to do our distribution work for us.

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

And it's still not "You can't install other browsers on the system", I agree that MS forces their browser on you, that was never in contention. They do not, and never have, said "no other browsers allowed" which is a hell of a lot worse than "check us out first".

Re:Biasd and false

[pete-classic]

Not one word of your post contradicts my previous post. You have changed assertions mid-stream. Conversing with you is useless.

Oh, well.

-Peter

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

My assertion was always that safari does not warn of invalid 3rd party certs. I think you take issue with what I call invalid. Anything that is not in the list of trusted root certs I would call invalid, indeed all browsers but Safari call these certs invalid, so it is not my opinion alone to call them invalid. I never challenged the cypher as you say, certs issued by unknown entities are useless to everyone but the person who created it and who subscribes to that CA, for example, a small business may have it's own CA for it's mail server, but it will use a public CA for it's retail web site. I think you get this, but you're just hung up on Safari being so secure. Safari lacks a root cert list, the uneducated user can't distinguish between certs issued by bogus companies and the certs issued by valid root CA's, i.e.: the user doesn't know if the person with the cert is who he claims to be, other browsers go out of their way to prevent this from occurring, Safari does not, that makes it less secure, period.

Re:Biasd and false

[pete-classic]

I quoted your original statement about HTTPS in my original reply. I'm not going to re-litigate that.

Anything that is not in the list of trusted root certs I would call invalid, indeed all browsers but Safari call these certs invalid

I just went to my corporate webmail, which uses a self-signed cert. On Safari on my iPhone I get the message, "The certificate for the website is invalid. Would you like to connect to the website anyway? [Cancel] [Continue]" (Safari on the Mac gives a similar message.)

I honestly don't know what you're talking about when you say that Safari doesn't use a root CA. I know I usually don't get a prompt such as the one above when I go to a secure site. (E.g. https://amazon.com/ .) Presumably this is the case when the cert is signed by a trusted CA.

So the evidence of my eyes indicates that, in fact, Safari does prompt on invalid certificates and does use a root CA. If you can explain how this jives with your assertion I'd love to hear it.

-Peter

Re:Biasd and false

[Anonymous Coward]

"RIM's idea of 'PUSH EMAIL' is: "buy this $5000 software from us to give your email server "RIM PUSH EMAIL" and god help you if their racket of a service fails, not to mention their complete lack of hardware innovation in the last decade."

Well, at least the parent poster shows himself to be a complete and total idiot. I guess $5000 is the codename for $0, since you can have your own install of BES for free?

http://www.blackberry.com/select/professional/express.shtml

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

I'm using Safari in Windows, maybe it has a root CA list on a mac through the key chain system. I found this problem using the same exact method, I was writing instructions on how to install my internal cert generated by my own CA for every browser and found that Safari didn't give any warning. Maybe it's different on a Mac, if so, they admit that it should be done but omitted this functionality in windows. I don't own a Mac so I can't test Safari on that platform.

Re:Biasd and false

[gutter]

Maybe it uses the same list of CAs that IE does, so you already had it installed? Seems pretty likely to me: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1470469&tstart=165

Re:Biasd and false

[Coolhand2120]

I stand corrected. Using another browser to install the cert is not only unique, but rather odd. Thanks for the correction, I won't say that anymore.

Palm Treo says hello

[Anonymous Coward]

Same goes for Palm Treo. They started offering Centro at under $100, but I think it might be too late. It just isn't sexy compared to iPhone.

Uh what? RIM and iPhone are small potatoes.

[RealityThreek]

Symbian devices rule the world. Followed by Windows Mobile.
 
Blackberry is popular in North America but are practically unheard of in Asia and are just recently making strides in Europe. The iPhone has made an impact in new phone design, but Apple's still got a long way to go.

Re:Uh what? RIM and iPhone are small potatoes.

[nxtw]

It is important to consider that Windows Mobile devices are more popular in the United States than Symbian devices, in part because there are plenty of CDMA Windows Mobile devices.

WM 5 offers Push Email if Exchange server supports

[RealityThreek]

See subject. Also, I'd recommend the HTC TyTN 2 over the HTC Titan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_TyTN_II

It's unfortunately heavy but has an impressive processor, tons of memory, and comes with GPS.

Different solutions for different applications

[lohphat]

The reason RIM has the business market is that they have features which mate it scalable for the enterprise, every other player hasn't matched features for that target market.

The ability to brick lost phones, encrypt contents, apply IT security profiles, provision remotely over the air, sync to the server to make the hand-held expendable, data modem for the laptop, etc. And there are apps for the BB for many major ERP and sales tools. The key business integrations for the road warrior are already there.

I think the iPhone et al are cool as a *personal* tool/toy but more often than not, they don't scale into a company where protection of IP and low TCO are mandated. For your personal use, you can absorb all the geekiness you want because the support required starts and ends with yourself.

Try to deploy 1000 iPhones in a company and you're going to hemorrhage money.

RIM isn't as sexy but it's a stable, known, scalable, and for the most part, secure solution.

Re:Different solutions for different applications

[Wrath0fb0b]

The ability to brick lost phones, encrypt contents, apply IT security profiles, provision remotely over the air, sync to the server to make the hand-held expendable, data modem for the laptop, etc. I believe that Windows Mobile 6 can do all of those things except the first. Of course, if you want Exchange sync you'll have to pay for enough Exchange licenses but that expensive option looks pretty frugal compared to RIM's exorbitant service. OTA provisioning, fine-grained control over allowed executables, encryptions, tethering are all there (and can all be pushed).

I'm not trying to diss Blackberry (never used one, so that would be quite foolish), just noticed that you listed a lot of features that I know WinMo has as being critical for the warrior. It is true that all the road warriors that I know do use BBs but I don't know if that's because of their IT dept, disappointment (WinMo 5 was not acceptable) or whatever else actually animates IT decisions.

True story: I flew next to a guy that had a BB and a RAZR that seemed to think it was perfectly normal to have them be two separate devices. He fell asleep before I could interrogate him further . . .

Re:Different solutions for different applications

[metlin]

Very well said - couldn't agree more.

As a Blackberry user, I looked at getting an iPhone, but a brief conversation with IT basically told me that I'd lose all the advantages of having a smartphone with an iPhone (i.e. can't do push email, can't sync my calendar, no VPN, can't implement security etc).

I gave up at that point. While the iPhone is a very sexy and sleek toy, it's just that - a toy gadget. From a corporate user's utilitarian perspective, a Blackberry kicks ass.

Re:Different solutions for different applications

[Kleen13]

I couldn't agree more. I was "forced" to integrate a BES server into our org and I was Very Reluctant to do so. I went from a active x toolbar applet to support 1 phone (ok, so I had to pull off some firewall magic) to a full blown server app, to support now 2 phones. As soon as I added the users and saw that I could brick the phones in aboot 12 seconds flat, I was sold. Sure, $100 per CAL is a bit much, but it's not in MY budget, and I can control it from home. Oh ya, I have since added many more phones, and switched servers BES was running on with about 7-10 min of downtime. Might as well not even told them I was bringing it down to switch. As I said, I'm sold.

Re:Different solutions for different applications

[Anonymous Coward]

The new Apple 2.0 software can remotly erase / brick the iphone and has many of the other features you mention.

Re:Different solutions for different applications

[JaredOfEuropa]

I think the iPhone et al are cool as a *personal* tool/toy but more often than not, they don't scale into a company where protection of IP and low TCO are mandated. For your personal use, you can absorb all the geekiness you want because the support required starts and ends with yourself.

Try to deploy 1000 iPhones in a company and you're going to hemorrhage money.

Various companies I work for are increasingly offering their employees more options, sometimes including iPhones. And their IT departments are coping just fine. It does take a different approach to infrastructure and support, to be sure, but I think that a centralised one-size-fits-all approach will lose favour with both employers and employees.

As an example, some companies provide tools to access corporate systems from your home machine, and allow employees to install stuff on office workstations for personal use (within reason, and always with a valid license). Surprisingly those companies have not seen a notable increase in support costs or virus / trojan issues and whatnot.

In the past, employees would eagerly accept Blackberries from their employer. These days, the answer is often: "No, I do not want another device to carry around". People often already have their own smart phones, and they do not want another device but want the one they already have to work with corporate systems. My current client now offers (optional) Blackberries to some, but also offers ActiveSync to everyone who wants it, for use with personal smart phones. And other syncing software can be installed as well, if necessary.

Blackberry A.K. (Apple Killer)

[Anonymous Coward]

RIM will be coming out with a phone they are calling the Apple Killer. It looks very similar to the iPhone.

I am waiting for the Apple i

Headline is BUNK

[coolmoose25]

If the smartphone battle is shaping up as RIM vs Apple, why is it that everyone I know carries a Treo... I've seen all kinds from the 600/650 that is still Palm based to the 700WX and beyond... It is almost funny. All the executives at my office have the RIM machines - NONE of which they bought themselves... The people who don't rate a Blackberry for free from the company almost all buy either a generic cell phone, or more commonly, some kind of Treo...

Re:Headline is BUNK

[uvajed_ekil]

I'd have to disagree that Treos are commonplace, as I rarely ever see mroe than one a day: mine. I bought a used Treo 650 in January, and now I'm not sure how I ever lived without it. I may upgrade to a newer with wifi eventually, but I love the 650. (It does have a few quirks: it deosn't seem to like certain naming schemes for audio files, and crashes, and sometimes checking the SD card causes it to crash. It is also rather bulky for a 2008 cell phone. Annoying, but I can deal with it if those are the only strikes against it.)

Re:Headline is BUNK

[MachineShedFred]

That's odd, cause everyone I know has a Blackberry or an iPhone.

Perhaps basing statistics on "everyone you know" isn't a sufficiently large sampling pool?

Not entirely true

[goldcd]

Recent versions of Windows mobile support push from your exchange server - and once it's got a reasonable UI stuck over the top of the god-awful defaults - it makes quite a nice phone. Reason Blackberries have taken off is that they're well and truly owned by the employer. I can't a VPN token out of my employers for love nor money for my phone. They like Blackberries and if I want my email on the go, that's what I get. They give me a stitched up Blackberry (I can't fiddle with the settings to even add another email account) and it wil securely give me my office mail and that's about it. In fact that's the reason I think they've done so well, it's an appliance first and foremost (not a new toy I'd actually want - like an iphone).

Blackberry? WHO?

[SirJorgelOfBorgel]

Blackberry... who?

"For the last 10 years RIM has dominated the smartphone market" ... right. Blackberry has never, and will never, dominate any smartphone market whatsoever.

Symbian is #1 in users, and Windows Mobile is #1 in usability. Blackberry is a closed system and will ultimately completely fail. So will the iPhone, by the way, aside from a personal(!!) gadget.

It's virtually impossible to develop anything for the Blackberry. Add to that thats it's features are insanely expensive compared to the alternatives. It's only somewhat big in the US. Sure nowadays you can get Blackberry in Europe, but seriously, who other than an easily duped executive would ever order it?

Your average Symbian or Windows Mobile device is way more compatible with existing infrastructure, costs a fraction of a Blackberry (with the latter mostly being insane subscription costs, at least over here).

But what is most important - customizibility. There are almost an infinite number of apps available for Symbian and Windows Mobile (and as a developer, and I hate to say it, Windows Mobile easily has my preference). Your company needs something not 100% the standard package? You just call somebody with the knowledge and get it tailored to your needs.

Virtually anything you want to do is possible. That's the power. Some times, it can also be a drawback, but usually it's a power.

As for the iPhone, same shit different day. It's closed (enough to be called closed). They want to exert control. You'll always be a step behind that way. Even if your interface is shiny, what can it actually do? Forgive me for laughing at everybody who ever bought an iPhone, but WTH, no 3G ? For what it's supposed to do as a device, it's somewhat comparable to buying a black and white flatscreen 42". It may mean nothing to a non-techy, but I'm sure we can all agree iPhone is not a business device.

I remember going to a conference once, about 3 years ago, here in Europe, where there was also a seminar on Blackberry. The spokespeople were very enthousiastic about it. Feature this, feature that. Most of the audience was completely unimpressed. Our phones already do that. RIM may have fooled you Americans, but they offer very little extra. They may have some extra technical management stuff, but all of that will be in the next WM (and probably Symbian, too) release, and they only have it at the cost of using the device how you want it to be used.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Mobile is #1 in usability

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Is tonight "mods on crack" night? Because that's the only way I can see a post containing the above sentence getting +4, Insightful.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[buffer-overflowed]

The iPhone is not a business device, it's a consumer device. It may crack into corporate that way though.

Personally I looked into it when they were coming out, but the closed nature of the platform in every way completely removed it from consideration. It wouldn't work on verizon's network, and I couldn't do any of the functions I need my phone for except make and recieve calls.

I'm pretty much stuck with a now aging Samsung i730 for now.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[edn4]

The iPhone could become a business device simply because it will win on the personal front- people aren't going to want two devices, so at some point employees will pressure businesses to change. People are going to want the phone that is easiest to use. The new software patch for the iphone is opening it up to business developers like epocrates, salesforce... I believe the fee is $100 for developing an iPhone app, and that is nothing for a business budget.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberry... who?

"For the last 10 years RIM has dominated the smartphone market" ... right. Blackberry has never, and will never, dominate any smartphone market whatsoever.

Symbian is #1 in users, and Windows Mobile is #1 in usability. Blackberry is a closed system and will ultimately completely fail. So will the iPhone, by the way, aside from a personal(!!) gadget.

It's virtually impossible to develop anything for the Blackberry. Add to that thats it's features are insanely expensive compared to the alternatives. It's only somewhat big in the US. Sure nowadays you can get Blackberry in Europe, but seriously, who other than an easily duped executive would ever order it?

Your average Symbian or Windows Mobile device is way more compatible with existing infrastructure, costs a fraction of a Blackberry (with the latter mostly being insane subscription costs, at least over here).

But what is most important - customizibility. There are almost an infinite number of apps available for Symbian and Windows Mobile (and as a developer, and I hate to say it, Windows Mobile easily has my preference). Your company needs something not 100% the standard package? You just call somebody with the knowledge and get it tailored to your needs.

Virtually anything you want to do is possible. That's the power. Some times, it can also be a drawback, but usually it's a power.

As for the iPhone, same shit different day. It's closed (enough to be called closed). They want to exert control. You'll always be a step behind that way. Even if your interface is shiny, what can it actually do? Forgive me for laughing at everybody who ever bought an iPhone, but WTH, no 3G ? For what it's supposed to do as a device, it's somewhat comparable to buying a black and white flatscreen 42". It may mean nothing to a non-techy, but I'm sure we can all agree iPhone is not a business device.

I remember going to a conference once, about 3 years ago, here in Europe, where there was also a seminar on Blackberry. The spokespeople were very enthousiastic about it. Feature this, feature that. Most of the audience was completely unimpressed. Our phones already do that. RIM may have fooled you Americans, but they offer very little extra. They may have some extra technical management stuff, but all of that will be in the next WM (and probably Symbian, too) release, and they only have it at the cost of using the device how you want it to be used. Windows Mobile is #1 in usability?

Obviously you have not used a windows mobile phone, it's about as usable as... something which is not very usable.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[shmlco]

Just an FYI, but about 95% of my iPhone internet/email use occurs at work, home, or in a couple of local restaurants... ALL of which are WiFi enabled. So while EDGE is a bit pokey elsewhere, by and large it doesn't matter, because event though 3G beats EDGE, WiFi beats 3G.

"Windows Mobile is #1 in usability."

(ROTFLMAO) How in the world did you manage to say that with a straight face?

"There are almost an infinite number of apps available for Symbian and Windows Mobile ..."

Yeah, but how many file managers and to do lists do you really need?

"Even if your interface is shiny, what can it actually do?"

Other than be a phone, web browser, email system, iPod, video iPod, SMS system, camera, photo album, clock, calendar, and so on and so forth? I guess you haven't seen what's coming via the SDK, have you?

"...m sure we can all agree iPhone is not a business device."

Well, since I use it for that purpose, no, we can't.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[gtx]

Blackberry has 11% of the global market even though 3/4 of its users are in North America. Windows Mobile has 12% of the global market and its users are fucking everywhere.

As a result, Blackberry dominates the North American smartphone market.

You may find this to be in direct conflict to your statement "Blackberry has never, and will never, dominate any smartphone market whatsoever."

Your post is a whole bunch of nonsense. Yes, Symbian has market dominance outside of North America. However, even by your own admission, "They may have some extra technical management stuff, but all of that will be in the next WM (and probably Symbian, too) release"

Have you ever considered that the cost of using Blackberry is worth it to some companies so that they can have these features right now on hardware that isn't a goddamned toy?

So please spare us your elitist bullshit. I don't give a good goddamn if you're from Europe or if you have the best smartphones over there. This doesn't make any difference if you don't have any goddamned clue what you're talking about.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

This comes from a person who uses "Object Pascal" on a daily basis. Your opinion represents the belief of the common man.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[l0ungeb0y]

You had me until you said you laughed at everyone who bought the iPhone without it having 3G.

I bought the iPhone, and yes disappointed it didn't have 3G support, but this is a 1st gen product from Apple and I could forgive them for not having EVERYTHING they wanted to have for their 1st gen launch.

Was it they didn't want to deliver 3G? I doubt it.
I think it was time and moeny for development + possible licensing costs from AT&T and other carriers for the tech to use the network.

Makes sense to see if you have another Apple Cube o your hands before making further investments.

Everyone seems convinced that 3G will be in iPhone v2.
And I am quite certain of that, especially with the iTunes Music Store integration.

So laugh all you want at people like me who bought a product THEY could use today even though it didn't have everything YOU wanted. Personally, I am extremely happy with the iPhone, and plan on buying the 2nd version as soon as it comes out.

And as far as it not being a business device, I have to disagree. I do far more business on my iPhone than any other phone and find it truly adds to my productivity without taking up all my time. Granted, there are some features I think their mail client really needs, but once again, it's a 1st gen product.

But what it really provides me more than anything else is compactness, utility and versatility that no other device has yet to provide. Until the iPhone, I had two gadgets with me at all times: cell and iPod. Those are now just 1. And I'm positive that iPhone v2 will encroach upon the need for secondary gadgets such as digicam and low end digital video camera and GPS unit.

So laugh all you want, but at least be fair enough to realize that everyone isn't like you, and you may very well be someone that the iPhone just isn't for. But that doesn't mean it's crap or the people buying it idiots. However your attitude makes you seem a bit biased and closed minded in thinking... which can indicate lesser ability to comprehend and accept change. But that doesn't mean you lack that ability.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi:

What? For the last ten years, Blackberry has dominated the (North American) market that was synonymous with Palm up until say, 2001-2002 or so?

Blackberry only was created as a firm in '97. Why are tech journalists so bloody lazy?

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[aaarrrgggh]

While I used to love my old Nokia brick (most usable plain-jane cell phone I ever owned), I am at a complete loss of words with people's love of Symbian smart phones!

I tried the N95 and a couple other devices a year or two ago, and found everything to be abysmal hardware and clunky software as I went through Nokia and Sony-Ericson's flagship stores. The WinCE world was clearly worse, but offered better compatibility with the office.

But... what is great about the iPhone and some of HTC's models (by assumption rather than experience for the latter) is the huge, high-resolution screen. It really makes the difference in making the device usable on the road. I used to be a blackberry addict, and am quite happy with my transition to the iPhone.

Why are Europeans so passionate about their Symbian phones? Have they really gotten that much better, or is it just random evangelism?

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[nxtw]

Just an FYI, but about 95% of my iPhone internet/email use occurs at work, home, or in a couple of local restaurants... ALL of which are WiFi enabled. So while EDGE is a bit pokey elsewhere, by and large it doesn't matter, because event though 3G beats EDGE, WiFi beats 3G.

Wifi may beat 3G in performance, but there are significant downsides for anyone who does not spend most of their time in the same few places. I can maintain the same 3G network connection for miles and miles. There's no need to risk connecting via unsecure networks. There are no hassles with network authentication: no VPNs to access the internet (typically college wifi networks), no EAP-TLS (typically corporate wifi networks), no gateway pages (for pay wifi or free wifi that presents an EULA or asks for an email address). 3G uses less power, especially when idling.

Yeah, but how many file managers and to do lists do you really need?

There's a lot more than that. Think games and emulators, GPS/map applications, streaming media players, etc. There's more out there than just Google Maps and YouTube. Instead of using Google Maps or Live Search, I can buy a full locally stored GPS app that functions more like a hardware GPS unit. I can stream music from services like Sirius or XM or stream video from my home connection using something like Slingbox. I can connect to SSH servers and use VoIP services like Skype. I can use password keeper applications that synchronize with companion applications on my desktop PC.

All of these things are possible today, not at some point in the future when Apple finishes their new firmware. There are no limitations based on what Apple and its business partners choose to allow.

And if the program I want is something trivial like a to-do-list, it's nice to have choice.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[metlin]

Just an FYI, but about 95% of my iPhone internet/email use occurs at work, home, or in a couple of local restaurants... ALL of which are WiFi enabled. So while EDGE is a bit pokey elsewhere, by and large it doesn't matter, because event though 3G beats EDGE, WiFi beats 3G.

You probably don't travel much. :)

About 30% of my email happens in the airports, another 10% in hotels and restaurants and about 45% on client sites where I can't really plonk down my notebook and start checking my mail. Perhaps 10% of my email checking happens at home, and about 5% at my office. How many of these places have wifi? Well, home is the only one which I've setup. Clients, hotels and airports change so frequently that I don't even bother with them (unless I'm at a client all too often).

The biggest reason why I love my Blackberry is because when I do have free time, I am not constrained about something coming up - I can actually go out, and if something comes up, I'll know. Also, it nicely syncs up with my calendar, which is *awesome* because I can combine my personal and work calendars into one, and it's one place with everything.

And my Blackberry has a GMail client, and IM clients, as well as Google Maps and basic Google search. There's not a whole lot more I need, really. I can play my music, I can do the two most important things (i.e. email and calendar) and I can check my personal email, and do IM if needed. On top of that, I can use my favorite search engine find directions if needed.

To me, anything else is nice-to-have, but I probably won't ever use it. Well, maybe for the first two days if I have a moment or two.

An iPhone is great for fun, but from a utilitarian perspective, I cannot have (corporate) push-email, it does not sync with the corporate calendar and so on. So, its use is immensely limited to me as a business user. On top of that, IT is leery of the iPhone from a security perspective (mostly because they cannot push their security policies on your phone).

Now going back to your point on connectivity, I think that EDGE sucks - and while WiFi is great, it doesn't really matter for most business travelers (at least my kind). Now, that is where 3G comes in, in my opinion. I want something that works in the airports, hotels and on the road - and something that is reliable. I don't need large amounts of data for viewing videos - I just need to know when I get an important client call or an email from a partner (or girlfriend :)).

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

iPhones screen is 320x480, that's not high resolution, and not so much difference to normal smart phones which sport 320x240 screen. The reason why people treat Apples screen as it would be high resolution screen has more to do with their software and design decisions they have made on displaying their user interface and web content. In here Nokia and others are behind, they usually have crammed too much to screen making it confusing.

However.. Nokia and other phone manufacturers have better hardware and lately Nokia has made an tremendous effort on software front. If I could choose any phone today, I would choose S60 based phone, probably Nokia N82 or . The reason is that Nokia has both improved S60 a lot, a N95 with new firmware just works, and they have an incredible selection of software from themselves and from lots of third party providers. For myself Maps, LifeBlog, Share Online and PC Suite are software that I want and need. It should also be noted I really appreciate having a large collection of third party software available, both S60 specific and J2ME software.

PS. If you appreciate big high resolution screen, why not get E90?

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[dafing]

it's somewhat comparable to buying a black and white flatscreen 42"

What! Everyone knows the height of entertainment is Citizen Kane and Dr Strangelove!

Get off my lawn!

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[jmil]

Windows Mobile has 12% of the global market and its users are fucking everywhere. That is not a friendly mental image.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

What good is 3g if there is no 3g support within 300 miles of where I live? I do however have wifi anywhere in town.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberry does not dominate the North American smart phone market. Very few companies are going to spend the thousands of $$$ required to run Blackberry phones on the corporate e-mail system.. Especially when I have yet to see any technical support personal in enterprises endorse the product. The only time I have seen Blackberry used in the enterprise is when an executive buys one and then finds out it doesn't work and so he buys the software to not look too stupid.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anne Thwacks]

Windows Mobile is #1 in usability

The correct spelling is "instability". Consult your local grammar nazi.

Or get an SE p1i, if its a smart phone you want.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[jrumney]

Was it they didn't want to deliver 3G? I doubt it. I think it was time and moeny for development + possible licensing costs from AT&T and other carriers for the tech to use the network.

I'd be prepared to put money on the licensing issues being the major reason for Apple avoiding 3G in their first generation product. Not just the cost (which comes from the chip manufacturers who hold patents over the various technologies used, not the carriers), but the uncertainty of it all with lawsuits going on all over the place and Qualcomm banned from importing their chips around the time the iPhone was launched.

The official story of battery drain is not borne out by other manufacturers' figures - which actually show less drain for data use due to the radio transmitting and receiving for shorter periods. If the iPhone is not a data centric device, then what is?

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Weedlekin]

"iPhones screen is 320x480, that's not high resolution, and not so much difference to normal smart phones which sport 320x240 screen."

A factor of two is a very significant difference in resolution.

NB: The rest of your post reads like an ad for Nokia.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

Well, when the normal resolution of an laptop or an desktop computer is 1024x768, a 320x480 compared to that is minimal. The point here is that the normal content is too large. The iPhones displays web content by scaling it down, so it looks like you are viewing the screen normally, when in the matter of fact you are not. As I said earlier, the design decisions that Apple has done are great and they have had much initial success because of this. Still, a 320x480 screen is small, and hasn't got a high resolution.

And to add in the end. Every post I have read about iPhone has too felt like reading an ad. I can understand that to some people iPhone has been an experience to them, but so can other phones be too. To me it has been experience to see Nokia getting their software work, including S60 and PC Suite. Just a few years ago PC Suite was more or less rubbish and unusable piece of engineering. Now PC Suite works and enables updates, backups, restores, synchronizing, application install and so on very easily. Also software like Nokia maps combined with an internal GPS unit is just brilliant, especially the 2.0 version that is also optimized to be used in walking. Yes, I know there are other software like Google Maps that can be used and are being delivered with Sony-Ericsson navigation phones, but with Nokia I can download maps directly into phone without charge. So if I'm going to strange town or another country, I can just by using map manager download all to the phone. It really is incredible, you should try new Nokia phones and see yourself how long way they have come just in few years.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[ltrm]

Why are Europeans so passionate about their Symbian phones? Have they really gotten that much better, or is it just random evangelism? I hope it's not random evangelism on my part, as I'd switch phone supplier in a heartbeat. Personally, and from a consumer point of view, I like my current Symbian phone because I can do alot with it.

I'd like to get an iPhone 2.0 as my next phone as I want better Mac support (Nokia are reading that! (nope) ) but getting an iPhone right now would mean giving up at least three things I value:-

• *I'd have to give up using the phone for sat-nav when I'm in the car. Google maps is OK on foot but it doesn't give turn by turn directions. Apple could easily sort that out with the SDK and a cheap bluetooth GPS unit which could then just live in my glove box.
• *A better camera. Right now if you're thinking "why not just buy a real camera" you're missing the point. An SLR is no use to me if I haven't got it with me. Here all Apple really need to do is put autofocus and one of those crappy white LEDs on the iPhone and the camera would be good enough for my alcohol related snap shots but at the moment it's not. Should be sorted out in iPhone 2.0 (MMS support would also be nice too.)
• *Thirdly, price. In Europe phones are almost disposable they're so cheap. I really want an iPhone but when an 8Gb Nokia N95 (or large number of alternatives) is free on any network I like, it's hard(er) to justify cost. If I loose that Nokia I've still got the phone I got free last year to use until I upgrade for free at the end of my contract. But if I loose my iPhone I'll have to fork out for another one and you can get a lot of cheap booze for the price of an iPhone....

That's my take on it anyway.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Weedlekin]

"Well, when the normal resolution of an laptop or an desktop computer is 1024x768, a 320x480 compared to that is minimal"

A desktop or laptop computer is not a mobile phone, so this statement is as specious as me claiming that laptop and desktop computers have minimal resolution because IMAX cinemas are 10000x7000.

"The point here is that the normal content is too large."

And normal IMAX content is too large for laptop and desktop computers. There is a simple reason for this: laptop and desktop computers aren't cinemas.

"The iPhones displays web content by scaling it down"

This is due to the small size of the display, not its resolution. It could be capable of IMAX 10000x7000 and they'd still have to scale it because people with normal vision wouldn't be able to read the text on a web page that was displayed in its entirety on a 3.5" diagonal display.

"And to add in the end. Every post I have read about iPhone has too felt like reading an ad."

You must be reading a very limited subset of posts, because I've seen more negative or neutral ones than positive ones. Your post however went further into Adsville than anything I've seen by even the rabid Apple fans who crawl out of the woodwork whenever Slashdot has a vaguely Apple-connected topic, and this one contains a whole load more of the same, e.g:

"It really is incredible, you should try new Nokia phones and see yourself how long way they have come just in few years."

It's also incredible how people who write stuff like this can seriously expect us to believe aren't Nokia astroturfers.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

320x480 is not a high resolution screen. The screen can sport a high DPI, but that doesn't make it a high resolution screen. Now, yes it has more pixels than other smart phones, except E90 and some offers from HTC. However the reason I take normal laptops and desktop screens as an example of what is high resolution screen is that mobile phones simply in function are more and more closer to laptops and desktops. When you are surfing the net, the content you get is tailored to screens having a resolution of 1024x768, and that is the same content you are viewing from your mobile device. My point is that you can't say that 320x480 is a high resolution when the functions you are using need a bigger screen, and because there are devices that have bigger resolutions, just take E90 on N8XX series. You may say that the screen is bigger, brighter and more enjoyable, but claiming that it's high resolution is just not true. Okey, yes, this may be semantics, but I feel it's important still.

And yes, I know that my view on Nokia phones and on S60 might sound like an ad, a non believable statement, but that really is what I feel about their products. They make good phones with good software. They were bad, they have gotten better, and will come even better in time. Now you don't have to believe that, but I challenge you to find out more. Go to Nokia flagship store, look info about their products and see what you like them. I like Nokias products, simple as that.

PS. It's about functionality. An IMAX movie is still functional even on small screen resolution, as you can watch the movie, see and hear it. An web page designed that works in 1024x768 crammed to 320x480 or 320x240 screen is severely limited in functionality: you have to zoom, you have modify it cram it in a small screen, the functionality just isn't the same. In this background, it's the same if the screen is 320x240 or 320x480 as the functionality of viewing and using the page in those both resolutions are severely handicapped when compared to original.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen. I don't need flashy toys, and "hip" devices. I need something that works and works well. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[rust627]

Windows Mobile is #1 in usability. Sorry, I have to disagree. I have a Motorola a100 and a windows mobile device that my work forced on me. The WM device crashes at least twice a day, takes twice as long to fire up, twice as long to do anything and chews through its battery in no time flat. and if you use the touch screen keyboard or 'handwriting recognition' rather than the keys under the screen it will crash within 15 minutes. Its tendency to load a program and then keep it running in the background is one of the stupidest design concepts ever devised.Basically it has turned a quite good unit (on spec) into a useless waste of time. I have recently tried to find a suitable phone to replace my A1000,but all the phones I look at are hampered with WM. as an aside even the phone salesmen I speak to quietly concede that WM5 and 6 are dogs and none of them would spend their own money on a phone with either of these systems on it.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Weedlekin]

It's quite obvious that you're a Nokia marketing droid who has either not read or isn't capable of understanding anything I wrote in the post you're supposed to be answering. Please don't bother to spend time answering this one, because I won't read it, and I doubt anyone else here will either.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's virtually impossible to develop anything for the Blackberry. Well if someone named SirJorgelOfBorgel says that J2ME is impossible to use, it must be true!

Darn free development environments: http://na.blackberry.com/eng/developers/downloads/jde.jsp
Darn free plugins for Eclipse if you don't like the JDE: http://na.blackberry.com/eng/developers/downloads/EclipsePlugIn.jsp
Darn open discussion area for help: http://www.blackberry.com/developers/forum/forum.jsp?forum=1

It's just *so* impossible.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberry is a closed system and will ultimately completely fail. You sir, are talking out your ass. I used to work for Magmic Games, which basically bet the farm on blackberry's platform, and are doing quite well as a result.

The BlackBerry's system is J2ME based (albeit with proprietary extensions, but that's not uncommon in the j2me world) and quite easy to code for. Unless your work's BES locks down what you can install (from an enterprise point of view, this is very handy) installing stuff on it is pretty easy. Most Google apps have, or are getting BlackBerry specific mobile versions built for them.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[SenseiLeNoir]

I bought the iPhone, and yes disappointed it didn't have 3G support, and

but this is a 1st gen product from Apple and I could forgive them for not having EVERYTHING they wanted to have for their 1st gen launch. and

I am extremely happy with the iPhone, and plan on buying the 2nd version as soon as it comes out. Now lets look at facts.
1) you WERE disappointed that it didn't have 3G support
2) yet you "forgive" them for not having everything
3) you are planning on buying the second version when it comes out. (adding to Apples profit)

Now if you bought the iPhone because it was what you want it for, that's great. Its a good phone. But you have already stated the 1st gen phone was NOT everything you wanted it for, and you have stated planning on buying the next phone. Two phones with one totally replacing the other. Certainly wasteful in money and environment. Also you are hoping the new iphone will have those features the original lacked.

Me, I was going to get an iphone. And when i realised the limitations, I decided that I needed something NOW, and instead put my money on a Nokia N95 8GB.

With this, I can:
- listen to music
- watch movies
- use GPS (very handy in London, and great for social events in many ways)
- Access the internet ANYWHERE at 1.5 Mps, even on a train, with my laptop, using bluetooth.
- use normal headphones without an adapter
- take photos that are reasonable.
- IMAP push.
- Carry a spare battery, in case the main one runs out (it is primarily a phone and a phone with no power due to excess media playback/internet browsing fails in its primary use as a phone)

I am certainly not disappointed, I purchased this because it fit my needs, and the iphone didn't. Maybe one day in the future, when this is old, I may get the 2nd/3rd/4rth generation iphone if it suits my needs, or even a Google Andriod based phone, or even heaven forbid, a MS WM phone.

But at least I didn't purchase a phone having to "forgive" Nokia for not doing what I wanted. Nor did I have to plan on buying a new phone later to do what I originally wanted to do. I will only replace this phone When it doesn't function.

That is why people are laughing at you for buying an iphone. Because you drunk the Apple kool aid, and bought a phone which clearly didn't fit your needs, and now you are further promising to fund Jobs retirement plan, by buying the second generation one.

That being said, I don't think the iphone is a bad PHONE, and have recommended it to some friends, who don't have any further needs.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[SenseiLeNoir]

Hi, I think you are wasting your time arguing with them. I can see pretty clearly from your past posts you are hardly a "Nokia Mouthpeice". You happend to live in Europe (as I do) and

Unfortunately, even here on Slashdot, sometimes Apple fans can be pretty bad. Even when you put an informative post, some will resort to name calling, or worse say you are a Nokia fanboy.

I myself make a earlier comment saying I find it strange that some people writing here buy the iphone, then are disappointed, then plan on buy the 2nd gen version, whilst also "praising" the iphone, and wonder why poeple laugh at them.

Without repeating what I said in the earlier post, please read this:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=536090&cid=23225490

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

I would say that it's quite unfriendly and uncivilized to start calling names. I can be enthusiastic about Nokias products without being an marketing droid for Nokia, in the very same way that Apple enthusiasts can be about iPhone and other Apple related products. Or do you call any one who speaks and praises iPhone an Apple marketing droid? I did understand what you were trying to point, but I didn't concur with you. Non of the less, I like talking and discussing to others in Slashdot and other venues, to express my ideas and feelings, and getting the others perspective as well. If you don't want to discuss about some topic, or think that the discussion is pointless, just don't answer, but calling names is stupid and diminishing.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[SenseiLeNoir]

I fully agree with you. I myself bought a Nokia N95 8GB for the same reasons. And trust me, I am NOT a Nokia fanboi, as I swore myself off Nokia 6 years ago, after a really bad customer service complaint, and moved to Sony Ericsson.

The fact is I wanted a phone, with a "decent enough" camera (my D-SLR is not practical to carry around to parties), price, Music, storage, performance, high speed internet, GPS, and also the ability to change batteries (this is a phone foremost).

The 1st gen iphone does NOT suit my needs. the 2nd gen iphone MAY suit my needs (it may not).

the N95 8GB DID suit my needs, and despite my "hate" for Nokia, i bit the bullet and got it. I am largely happy with it, my main annoyances rather minor, and mainly because I still find Sony Ericsson have a more logical menu layout, and better SMS handling (pred text, delivery reports), and better IMAP push support. However, there is no Ericsson that currently does everything I need.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[gtx]

Yes. Blackberry does dominate the North American smartphone market.

Just because you wouldn't spend the money doesn't mean that tons of companies aren't doing so right now.

-c

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[shmlco]

"I cannot have (corporate) push-email, it does not sync with the corporate calendar and so on. So, its use is immensely limited to me as a business user. On top of that, IT is leery of the iPhone from a security perspective (mostly because they cannot push their security policies on your phone)."

Push, Exchange support, policies, wiping, etc., are coming to all iPhones in June (EDGE and 3G alike) when 2.0 is released.

Re:Blackberry? WHO?

[gomiam]

"Windows Mobile is #1 in usability." (ROTFLMAO) How in the world did you manage to say that with a straight face?

He actually didn't: a group of six philologists was selected to write one word each. One of them was able to see Windows Mobile at the same time and had to be hospitalized for two months.

But only wiht AT&T

[hal9000(jr)]

My biggest gripe with the iPhone is that it runs only on AT&T and I am not going to plunk down my cold, hard cash to buy an iPhone, just to hack it for other networks.

You can get BB and Treo's for nearly all providers.

"Known and Potential Security Holes" = Troll

[Alexander]

"with all their known and potential security holes"

Yeah. That's just complete trolling. If it wasn't meant to be, it shows an amazing naiveté regarding Information Security, Vulnerability Research and the economics of Information Risk. Every platform has many "known and potential security holes". This, of course, is not a direct correlation with information risk, and I'd hesitate to even ascribe significant meaning to any vulnerability reports on any phone platform, regardless of Operating System without a significant change in the current threat landscape.

Re:"Known and Potential Security Holes" = Troll

[dave420]

"naiveté" - Mac user, much?

Nokia is the real front runner of professionals

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about Nokia and Symbian. I can press one tactile button that I can find while I'm driving, say someones name and it dials them. Or just say "Voice Notes" instead and start dictating a message I'll later process into an action item for myself or others.

This kind of fully featured mobile productivity has yet to be introduced *successfully* by anyone other than Nokia, and even with I-Phone's bells and whistles (I'll admit it's pretty) one can't seem to use the phone for much other than the various two dimensional games that are enabled by their multi-touch display. And there is nothing, other than let me click on a link, that I can do with an I-Phone I can't do with a Nokia.

But then again I don't expect that to slow down Apple's market share. However, Nokia ./owns mobile (world wide), and they do a good job with it. I don't see them being dislodged any time in the near future, even if every thug in oakland buys an i-phone.

Setting up devices

[Anonymous Coward]

I love all these guys saying they "just got done setting xxx up for a client" and "iPhone suck 'cause it plays videos." I wonder since the iPhone is too easy for regular peeps to set up, you never get to see one, and see your job loss coming when your clients buy them.

Re:Setting up devices

[lusiphur69]

Apple fanboy mods strike again, +1 insightful for random AC trash.

Apple will make even a beachhead in the enterprise when they stop marketing exclusively to a 'hip and cool' segment. You see, big corporations know they're not hip or cool. They are looking for a certain featureset to standardize on, with key features, that integrates well and is inexpensive to support. The iPhone is none of these things.

RIM has a fairly prominent position amongst big corporations, because that's who they have been marketing to - in Europe as well, regardless of what the naysayers think, blackberry adoption is pretty high. Now, your average joe schmoe wants a cool phone, well they may have an iPhone, or a generic WinCE platform from a mobile carrier. This article was about corporate adoption, however.

What I don't get is that if only 30% of Fortune 500 companies signed up for a 'Beta' iPhone program - where presumably they get to play with some hardware for a reduced cost at scale, how that could possible be considered 'good'? Over two thirds of the market said 'No, thanks.' unless we are to believe that Apple did not reach them. That's not good at all and does not bode well for the iPhone vis-a-vis the corporate market.

Miss your palm?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll miss my palm when my company gets to me

I'm just the opposite. When my company gets to me, that's when my palm and I get reacquainted. Probably true for lots of slashdotters.

Crazy

[barbam]

Any corporation who rolls out the iPhone in its current state is absolutely batsh!t crazy. It is simply not a business device -- it is a multi-media phone that does 'email' (and poorly at that). That's it. Maybe things will get better with the new release later this summer but I'm skeptical. In general apple misses the boat when it comes to business users so I don't expect much (and neither should you!)

Re:Crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Remember that Apple XServe thing a while back? I think that's what it was called. How did that end up doing? I only ever saw one, and it was bought by some professor because he thought it would make a good toy.

I have friends who work in large enterprise IT shops, and they all agree Apple products simply do not cut the mustard.

As someone else said earlier, they understand marketing very very well. And as such they're able to dominate the consumer market. But for all they understand about the consumer market, they're still relatively clueless when it comes to the needs of businesses. Apple, stick to what you're good at - making toys.

Re:Crazy

[Weedlekin]

"Remember that Apple XServe thing a while back? I think that's what it was called. How did that end up doing?"

They're are still selling them, and still updating both the hardware and OS, so there must be a market for them somewhere.

"I only ever saw one"

That seals it then: you only saw one, therefore nobody uses them.

"I have friends who work in large enterprise IT shops, and they all agree Apple products simply do not cut the mustard."

And your friends can obviously give plenty of specific examples detailing the ways that, after evaluating them, said "Apple products" (no specifics given, just anything from Apple) do not "cut the mustard".

"As someone else said earlier, they understand marketing very very well. And as such they're able to dominate the consumer market."

Apple do not dominate the consumer market in anything except portable media players, and that's mostly because the competition when the iPod was launched didn't make an equivalent device that anybody except geeks wanted.

"But for all they understand about the consumer market, they're still relatively clueless when it comes to the needs of businesses."

Are they? Please elucidate...

"Apple, stick to what you're good at - making toys."

And leave the serious business to you and your friends.

Battle over!

[sc0ob5]

Apple are no contention for anything related to phones. Apple are only a contender where the market is two or more years behind the times. Lets face it you couldn't even send an MMS until recently, no flash support, no 3g/3.5g/4g (if you say that doesn't matter you have obviously never used any of them), no keypad, no user replaceable battery (this has got to be a MAJOR problem for exec's who can't be without their phone). Really, if you think that the iphone is anything more than a glorified ipod then you need your head examined.

As for RIM, the cost of the servers required for these makes it virtually cost restrictive for most organisations to deploy for limited number of users that may use the phones.

Windows however is relativity cheap if you already have exchange for email/calendar/contacts, although I'm not a fan of the interface, the memory hogging and the constant crashing (i am saying this only having used WM5 on an i-mate jam and HP h5000 and HP hw6950) but availability of these phones is high and there is enough selection for anyone to pick what they want in a phone whether it be the keypad or touchpad, GPS, CDMA/GSM, etc. There is also a lot of applications.

Symbian is my personal favourite though as the interface is easy enough for anyone to use, POP and IMAP are supported, depending on the model of phone you may have the option for the blackberry enabled version. Has the same large range of phones like windows. There isn't as many apps as WM but I have been able to find everything that I need. For me there is no contest.

A Huge untapped Market for the iPhone

[microcars]

in the Kitchen!

Normally when I am cooking I clip this little timer on my lapel so I can leave the kitchen and go do other things, like check my email or look for the cats.

After I got my iPhone I found the feature I used the most is the TIMER (under the Clock function).
I set that puppy and then head outside with a Gin & Tonic.

no funky timer clipped to my lapel any longer!
and it vibrates too in case I am hosting a party and I can't hear the thing go off.

AND ..it's a cell phone too! Can you believe it?
I bet you could store recipes on it somehow too, I predict these will be a bit hit at Bed Bath & Beyond very soon.

Potential Security Holes?

[His Shadow]

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Why is that the threat that the smartphone presents to corporate security doesn't grab headlines until Apple makes a phone?

Re:Potential Security Holes?

[Weedlekin]

"Why is that the threat that the smartphone presents to corporate security doesn't grab headlines until Apple makes a phone?"

Because boring articles with no useful content in them can get web hits by riding the coat-tails of the Apple buzz machine.

Headline: "Analysts Speculate That Smart Phones Have Potential Security Flaws Because They Run Software".

Result: I wonder if there are any singing dogs on YouTube.

Headline: "Analysts Claim iPhone Is A Potential Security Risk"

Result: click through lots of ad-laden pages with half a paragraph on each to discover that it's the same tripe that analysts spout about every topic they deal with.

Re:Potential Security Holes?

[dave420]

The real question is - why have you only started to notice the talk of smartphone threats to companies, now that Apple is the maker in question?

There have been lots of discussions about smartphone-based threats to "enterprise" ever since smartphones first appeared. The fact you call that out now, and phrase it as if it's people attacking Apple, makes a rational person wonder just why you posted that... ;)

Also...

[His Shadow]

This idea that there is a "battle" shaping up is an indication of how corporate culture has poisoned the public consciousness. Any halfwit can realise that there is ample space for both Apple and RIM to make quite a nice pile of money without ever worrying about what the other is doing. Microsoft "won" the desktop and what did that get us? Stagnation in technology, and malware as a norm.

Only 45 minutes with iPhone? *That's* the problem

[KH2002]

...when I first tried the iPhone for around 45 minutes I was really not impressed [with the keyboard]. 45 minutes? That's the problem. It takes 2-3 days to get used to it. Those 2-3 days make a huge difference, and if you haven't spent that time, you won't know what the iPhone keyboard is capable of...

Typing on the iPhone is easy, even with large hand

[LKM]

I've owned a Treo 640 and a P990i. I'm a large person (187 cm, big hands). While I do find typing on the iPhone slightly harder than on the other phones (which admittedly could be due to lack of "training" because I owned the other phones way longer), it is still very easy after a few weeks or even days of learning. The main disadvantage is not that typing on the iPhone is slower or more error-prone, but that you have to look at the iPhone while you're typing; on phones with keyboards, I could look at something else and still type quite okay.

But generally, typing on the iPhone is just not an issue, large hands or no.

My own article

[Meorah]

Since the NYTimes seems to be making a very large jump in its final thesis of "RIM is skurred of Apple" while missing a few critical pieces, I thought I'd fill them in for everybody else who wants a more complete high-level picture of the current smartphone scenario.

I follow the smartphone market on a daily basis as a personal hobby, and configure/administer MS exchange mailbox access on the various smartphones in use at my current job where I'm the primary sysadmin. This includes a BB 8700, Curves, and Pearls; WinMo BJs, BJIIs, Q9s, a Treo 750, a Shadow, a Dash, an 8125 (wizard), 8525 (hermes), and Tilts (8925, kaiser, TyTN II, whatever); Nokia E61i, E51, and my personal N95-4. I'm sure people will want me to configure mobile mailbox on their iPhone once Apple releases the ability, but up until now I've successfully declined every request to enable IMAP on a user mailbox just to support the iPhone just because it sets a bad precedent and increases environment complexity.

First point. RIM is the only real player in large american enterprises due to all the enterprise tools available to remotely administer and secure thousands of devices spread over multiple sites and even continents. If you're lucky enough to be a BES administrator as a full-time job, life is sweet because maintenance is so easy. The phones never freeze, any LOB apps are distributed OTA and have been tested enough that any issues that occur with them are well-known and can be fixed remotely, and any new initiatives or directives from "the powers" can be implemented quickly, easily, and centrally. Obviously, remote wipes and password resets are obvious selling points, but not exclusive to BB. Too bad this is a full-time job that will soon go the way of the webmaster, or I'd be trying to find one right now.

Second point. Apple's marketing of the iPhone has not only inspired the fanboys and wealthy suckers. It has also brought an awareness of smartphones to the technical influencers. People like myself, who are tasked with finding solutions and influence which one is chosen after they are presented to the people with their fingers on the purse-strings. Yes, there are execs who buy an iPhone and want everyone else to standardize on iPhones. I don't work for one, and wouldn't for very long if I did. Most are reasonable and want multiple options, with reasons why they are viable and reasons why standardizing on iPhones aren't. This improving awareness of the smartphone market in the US spreads from us to other people who always start off asking, "so how is the iPhone?"

Third point. As people are influenced to buy other smartphones for various reasons and Apple influences more purchases of the iPhone, these people invariably meet. This is usually born out by someone with an iPhone showing what it can do (to a young attractive female, as if the phone gives them power over the vag) since its much more impressive to show the bells and whistles instead of explaining them. The user of the other smartphone, incensed that the young woman is paying attention to the male with the less-capable smartphone (in THEIR opinion), must show the fertile vag how much more potent his smartphone is. The wee lass must then decide which is more attractive to her... the large multi-touch screen and easy to use UI, or the other phone which invariably has more features and software. Neither bones the girl, but they both learn something about each others' phones. Multiplied in subways, buses, cubicle intersections, water coolers, and bars (ya rly), other 3rd parties take note of which phones they prefer while watching the epic struggle between two stags for one tail. They make their decisions based off this information and go to their nearest carrier-authorized store to buy their phone. They look at the upgrade prices for the smartphones, realize they don't need email and internet on their phone, and find the nicest dumb phone in the store that they can get for free (with 2yr contract, of course). Sometimes they are sold on a dumb featu

Re:My own article

[Meorah]

They can already get their mail from anywhere using BB or EAS for mobile phones, OWA for webmail, and Outlook anywhere for laptop users who want a full client. None of which require IMAP or POP3 enabled. And since I'm their only sysadmin, netadmin, PBX guy, linux guy, helpdesk tech, mobile phone guy, and security guy, I actively propose that they should fire me if they don't like my decisions, usually repeated weekly.

So far, I'm still here. The advantages of being good at what you do. Enabling the IMAP service on Exchange 2007 just for 1 or 2 users... I'd have to quit out of principle.

Re:My own article

[JohnMidnight]

All I got is a quote for "Unfortunately, for most business sysadmins, the people who will want the iPhone are likely to be your bosses/VPs/Directors - They may not be interested in why you want to stop them using their shiny stuff." Now this isn't often (but if my friends who I am still jealous about are true) Replacing your IT Tech is like replacing your arm. The replacement is never as good as the old one.

Re:My own article

[gutter]

Out of curiosity, what is so bad about the IMAP service on Exchange? Are you worried about security, resource usage, or what?

RIM's advantage will kill it in India

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I understand, RIM/Blackberry has end-to-end encryption. That is, from your mail server to your handheld unit. MitM is not possible with the blackberries.

On the other hand, taking the example of my Sony Ericsson P990i smartphone - it does everything that the BB does - push email, calendar sync etc. from our Exchange server - via Microsoft ActiveSync. Now, my understanding of this is that there are two encryptions involved - from the Exchange server to some box in my cellular provider's site; and then the usual GSM encryption between the provider and my handheld. That is, the provider gets to see my emails unencrypted.

This advantage has the potential to kill BB in India, at least. The goverment here has been tapping emails, phone calls etc. for years, and now they find that with BB, they are unable to do so. They have been trying to armtwist RIM to ensure that BBs in India use low-grade encryption (40-bit, IIRC). Google News for "blackberry India" should give you the whole background.

Now, apparently even the government of Canada has gotten involved, with the High Commissioner himself writing letters to India's DoT (Dept. of Telecommunications). I am wondering how this will eventually play out, but I believe RIM is even considering a complete pull-out of India.

Re:RIM's advantage will kill it in India

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

The normal way that you'd set up Windows Mobile email would be as https access to your company's outward facing email server, or via a VPN client from the phone to an outward facing VPN server. Either way, there's still client-to-server encryption, and the "Indian problem" still applies.

What you're doing sounds like a carrier-specific equivalent of RIM's "Blackberry Internet Service" where the device talks to a server at or behind the carrier and that then talks to your server.

Re:RIM's advantage will kill it in India

[dave420]

Man-in-the-middle attacks are ALWAYS possible, seeing as unless your phone is directly wired to your email server, there are plenty of men in the middle. Of course, the man in the middle will have to substitute his own key to give the client the encryption it expects, which should raise a flag with the software, as it won't be issued by a trusted source, and won't reflect the real company's information correctly.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Only 45 minutes with iPhone? *That's* the probl

[darthflo]

I got myself an iPhone on vacation in NYC a few weeks ago and am anything but impressed by it's keyboard or most of it's features in general. To me, it seems more like a playful demo/study of an experimental input system than the final version of a high-end product.
In all but multimedia I deem my Blackberry (8707, recently replaced with a curve) way superior. Writing is a lot more comfortable and quicker and while it's interface may not win any design awards it's an awful lot more powerful for most tasks.
Try giving a 'berry or a Nokia E61/90 a quick spin, an hour or two should be sufficient to get you to switch back to the good side of the force ;)

And by you RIM and Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Windows Mobile and Symbian?

A view from the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

For a laugh, here's my experience (different AC to previous one). I do a fair bit of on-site installation work (tends to be vertical software in the service market and general mobile stuff), so here's a summary of a few hundred sites visited over the last 20 or so years).

Business:
Number of Apple servers seen - none
Number of Apple desktops seen - none
Number of MS Servers seen - too many to count
Number of MS desktops seen - virtually all of them
Number of HP/IBM/whatever servers seen - quite a few
Number of HP/IBM/whatever Unix desktops - half a dozen (honest)
Number of Linux servers seen - not as many as MS, but lots
Number of Linux desktops seen - a few

Personal:
Number of Iphones - none
Number of Ipods - lots
Number of Blackerries - lots
Number of Windows Mobile devices - lots
Number of Nokia/similar smartphones - lots

Neo 1973 free runner is the answer

[donguz]

Who needs iPhone or Blackberry when you can get thing like Neo 1973 free runner? http://www.openmoko.com/

Better headline...

[superash]

Smartphone Battle Is Shaping Up As RIM Vs. Apple in USA

Re:Better headline...

[Anonymous Coward]

Smartphone Battle Is Shaping Up As RIM Vs. Apple in USA North America.

RIM is a Canadian company people.

Tedrex

[Anonymous Coward]

MAJOR DRAWBACK OF IPHONE - No Background Processing.

That is why it sucks as a good Mobile development platform. It is toy+browser, that is, it works with a type of apps that user has to interact to use.
And there is a good reason of No Background Processing. Fancy, animated interface of iPhone have to use the Full Power of CPU to be efficient. Allow Background Processing, it will suck like hell. I think it is secret Jobs is hiding from all of us.

Re:Tedrex

[Guy Harris]

Fancy, animated interface of iPhone have to use the Full Power of CPU to be efficient. Allow Background Processing, it will suck like hell.

Gee, I ran a background job on my iPhone - I nohupped a shell script doing

while :
do
:
done

and, while I was running, looked at some Wikipedia pages, pinched them up and down, scrolled them up and down, played one of the songs in the music collection, and played a YouTube video; it was minimally slower than when I kill -9ed the shell running the script. (Yes, ps said the script was in R state.)

Hint: modern OSes, including those that can draw at least some of their heritage from something called "The Unix Time-Sharing System", tend to have something called a "scheduler" which can share the CPU in such a way that interactive programs get more of the CPU than background jobs.

Note also that background jobs might well be blocked in what, in modern OSes, is often called a "system call", and don't consume any CPU while in that blocked state.

Re:Tedrex

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Note also that background jobs might well be blocked in what, in modern OSes, is often called a "system call", and don't consume any CPU while in that blocked state.

Don't you think that might be happening to your while loop?

Re:Tedrex

[Guy Harris]

Don't you think that might be happening to your while loop?

No, I don't. The : command is a built-in shell command (a command that ignores its arguments; it was originally the only way to do comments in shell scripts - 4BSD and perhaps even 3BSD, and System V, later added support in the Bourne shell for # as a comment character), and neither a while loop in the shell nor that command need to make any blocking system calls.

Security, for one

[Nerdposeur]

Business users may not need much that's different than non-business, but companies like to have control over the devices.

If you administer a BlackBerry Enterprise Server, you can set security policies (like "all users have to enter a password when they pick up their device") and kill a device remotely. This could help you keep your company's sensitive info from getting stolen.

Please try using an iPhone before damning it

[LKM]

Because more often than not it won't. Its not going to be able to correct non-common acronyms, abbreviations, or last names.

Yes, it won't do it the first time you type them, but it learns.

I actually used the iPhone to type german sentences back when it only understood english. Incredibly, it only took about a week for it to learn 99% of all the words I use. After very little time, I could type fluent german on an iPhone with an US english dictionary.

Its going to pick the wrong versions of similar sounding words (its vs it's).

What? Why? This isn't speech recognition. The sound of words is of no consequence. Its has a letter less than it's, so the iPhone has no issues whatsoever differentiating between the two.

Its a hack on top of a broken system thats extremely fragile.

In reality, this is not true. I suspect you have not actually used an iPhone for an extended period of time; otherwise, you'd know that you are wrong.

The sad thing is this could have been avoided quite simply- include a fucking *STYLUS*.

Which would have created tons of applications with small on-screen elements that you couldn't possibly use without the stylus. Part of the genius of the iPhone is that you can use it with your thumbs. Moving from the Treo 650 and a P990i to the iPhone is a huge relief; hunting for all these little menus and buttons and links is finally over.

The device touchscreens are meant to be used by, and which gives you the accuracy needed. But no, Jobs wanted his POS to be used by fingers only. Fucking moron.

Please use the device before declaring Jobs a moron.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

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[jackier]

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