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Microsoft and OLPC Agree To Put XP On the XO Laptop
Apro+im points out a NYTimes report which states that Microsoft and the OLPC project have officially agreed to put Windows XP on the XO laptop. While Microsoft has been working toward this for some time, analysts began to think a deal was more likely after Walter Bender resigned from the project and was replaced by Charles Kane. Former OLPC security developer Ivan Krstic had a lot to say about Windows on the XO as well. From the Times:
"Windows will add a bit to the price of the machines, about $3, the licensing fee Microsoft charges to some developing nations under a program called Unlimited Potential. For those nations that want dual-boot models, running both Windows and Linux, the extra hardware required will add another $7 or so to the cost of the machines, Mr. Negroponte said. The project's agreement with Microsoft involves no payment by the software giant, and Microsoft will not join One Laptop Per Child's board. 'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said.
If Microsoft really cared about education so much, why wouldn't they just give Windows to the OLPC project for free? $3 may be a lot when you multiply it by the numbers of copies that will be sold, but that's still less than 1/30 the price of a retail copy of Windows, and their brand image would probably improve as a result.
For those nations that want dual-boot models, running both Windows and Linux, the extra hardware required will add another $7 or so to the cost of the machines
Why does dual boot require extra hardware??
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
to run an OS MSFT will stop supporting in 45 days? the OS will run horribly as the hardware isn't fast enough to support XP, and the Interface isn't up to running on a small screen. Not to mention if you ever have any problems and re install you run into WGA activation which requires internet access which may or may not be available to the region in which the system has been deployed.
Can someone tell me why this makes sense again? or is it more of MSFT buying customers as they can't earn them through capitalistic competition.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Now, even poor kids can learn to hate M$
Well, so much for a really cool idea. Microsoft will go to any length to have it's shitty OS on anything.
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
I for one was not looking forward to welcoming a new generation of young, creative, inquisitive, independent minded developing country overlords.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Yep, as pure as the bride wearing a white dress for her wedding when she's six months pregnant.
That was a close call. For a while there was a threat that emerging countries could grow into the computer world with a fast, reliable and stable platform to develop on.
Now we drag them down to our level!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I used to be a Negroponte fan, but since he allowed the MS move in this project he designed, I am no longer. No, it's not because I'm anti-MS, it's because I thought that this project wasn't a place for competition with commercial software. If MS wants to help out, the should do what Steve Jobs did with OS X: Offer it for Free. No deals, no licensing BS.
Why does dual boot require extra hardware??
More storage probably.
If so, that means shorter battery life - even when the memory isn't being used. (Even if you turn off the clocking, leakage current is a honking big fraction of power consumption with the recent generations of semiconductors.)
So by changing the machine to handle Windows (and raising its price) they've also reduced one aspect of its functionality under a free OS.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
this could extend XP's life a little longer until a non-shitty version of Windows comes out? (insert joke here) I realize we could be waiting awhile. I use Linux for most things but I just can't get away from my PC gaming!
We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
I had been looking to pick up one of these, either from ebay or the buy one get one program, if they ever started it up again to raise some money. Nevermore. Sell outs.
This story is useless without benchmarks.
Grandpa: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
What? That's totally ridiculous. It means that the XO becomes nothing more than a vehicle for transfer of money from 3rd world children to Microsoft.
Whoever thought that idea up at OLPC has shit for brains.
Microsoft should be *PAYING* for the privilege of getting its O/S installed on a machine to which it contributed absolutely nothing during development, and which will become an instrument of propaganda for Microsoft among the children of the world.
OLPC guys, you've really dropped the ball on this one, and forgotten that the XO was not intended as a normal western product for exploitation of consumers.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I wonder if it means Microsoft is prepared to support XP for at least another 10 years. Developing countries may be able to pay $200/laptop, but not $200/laptop/year. If a school goes with XP solution and some critical patch, such as a revision of IPV6 support, is needed, will they have to buy new laptops to run Windows 2015 or whatever?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Although it is being presented as Microsoft doing some good contributed to the project, I wonder if we could compare Gates Foundation money will flow to OLPC after the XP version is for sale. That could be the kind of non-profit pressure that would make the change of heart towards adoption of Microsoft software seem more understandable.
Comparing the money involved, OLPC = $200, OLPC + XP = $207, and Windows XP Home = $199. Hard to really explain why there is such a desire for Microsoft to cut the costs so deep just to get involved in this project. I'm sure it's not corporate altruism.
closing gates and not opening them. There is nothing philanthropic about enslaving people with money.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
$3? I wonder what they want for Vista... $0.50?
technical writing / development
granted, it does have a 4 gig hard drive compared to the 1GBytes from the XO. However, I have not looked at the specifics to see if the AMD Geode is any less than a 333 pentium II.
It is a very interesting story indeed. The blog by Ivan Krstic (link in submission) is well worth looking at too. He has some very forthright comments to make, including his response to a certain Richard Stallmans comment regarding the XP inclusion. Krstic doesn't seem to be a rabid anti-Windows fanatic, but he does oppose Windows being installed on the OLPC machines - while I'm unequivocally enthusiastic about Sugar being ported to every OS out there, I'm absolutely opposed to Windows as the single OS that OLPC offers for the XO
Awful UID - but I have been here ages...
I Can't believe people, even inside Microsoft, can see this as a good thing. This is like McDonalds bullying and lobbying to make the BigMac the preferred choice for UN's world food programme, and succeeding. And having people like Negroponte not mad about it just makes me think there's little to no hope.
Off the OLPC website:
"XO is built from free and open-source software. Our commitment to software freedom gives children the opportunity to use their laptops on their own terms. While we do not expect every child to become a programmer, we do not want any ceiling imposed on those children who choose to modify their machines. We are using open-document formats for much the same reason: transparency is empowering. The children--and their teachers--will have the freedom to reshape, reinvent, and reapply their software, hardware, and content."
OLPC should've said, "You're welcome to buy as many as you want with our standard OS, then install on them whatever you like."
congratulations, it's dead. Can OLPC be saved from Negroponte?
How we know is more important than what we know.
Seems odd that getting people indoctrinated into MS culture is so much more valuable than the hit to your reputation from a shitty user experience. Face it, while it might run XP, trying to run a program and XP must totally suck on that little thing.
They are quite confident of their monopoly it would seem.
There will be (hopefully) a million kids growing up thinking 'Windows is sooooo sloooow'
If i was in charge i don't think i would let windows only versions ship as then they think the same about you.
i have been teaching the up curricula for some time now to some kids and theirs parents as professional formation, feeling the most of the time that I'm selling them the msft technology instead of teaching them something about the professional use of the computer.
if you join this to the olpc project you'll get marketing for the future leaders of the developed countries of tomorrow.
Essentially, this can win/win Microsoft. If few adopt the project then so what? They will have shit-canned a rival to the Classmate. If it takes off, then a host of new addicts will come back to Microsoft and pay some day. In the end Negroponte's dream is sufficiently squashed. With so much of the world embracing OSS and many of those involved in the project pushing it too the OLPC has become less desirable. Who's laughing? Microsoft and Intel.
I'm pretty sure the cocksucker who wrote the article doesn't really get free software. I think the point is that many individuals, such as myself for example, want for themselves a platform including development tools that are entirely open and free as in both freedom and beer. I want to learn by looking at other people's code and I want to create without paying fees everywhere for every tool I need with someone else deciding the parameters or tools with which I am allowed to create. That's why I choose, for myself, to participate in the world of free software.
As for kids around the world they may or may not decide they want that for themselves. However, the freedom of free software certainly empowers them to create and learn in any way they choose to without the cost and limitations set by a greedy foreign entity who has a fundamental conflict of interest with the freedom of individuals. It would be arguably unethical to subjugate these students, as so many negligent IT professionals have done for their companies, to the closed blood sucking world of Microsoft. A single potent example is Microsoft's persistence to keep standards closed, even when they're faking making them open, so that THEY can control how much you pay to see your data and documents. They have abundant engineering talent to fix that problem but choose not to in order to control their customers.
The self-serving asshole who wrote the article tried to set up Stallman as having some abstract political agenda that Stallman puts first. The author misses the point entirely. The empowerment of free software enables especially people with limited resources to explore their own potential, if they choose to do so.
Sorry, Negroponte you've sold your soul. You've sold out your once inspiring dream.
Sorry, this is the pure outrage: You fucking suck.
We believed, we helped, YOU SUCK.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
"'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said."
i'v said it before and i'll say it again, you can't get a little bit pregnant.
As the parent mentions, this isn't OLPC 'dumping' Linux. They are just giving the countries who will be buying these things another option for Windows. Probably a waste on that hardware, but, really, I do believe some countries probably *want* Windows on the laptops. They probably feel that if they are going to educate kids about computers, the kids should get some exposure to Windows. I don't think that's entirely unreasonable.
I don't want people to take away from this that I am a MS fanboi - I very much am not. But, why shouldn't the purchasing countries have the option to get Windows if they want it? I hope people don't totally abandon OLPC in terms of quitting the development of software for the Linux-based SugarOS, in protest against this. This just makes it that much more important that the Open Source/Free Software communities continue to work with OLPC and make the Free Software available for it the best they can. In fact, I have a bit of a prediction. I think this whole thing will fall apart of it's own accord when Microsoft can't actually get Windows XP to run decently on the XO, so as long as the Free Software developers don't walk away in protest, I bet they will end up using the Linux based software in the end.
There is only, mainly, one question I walk away from this with, however - from what I've seen of SugarOS so far, I don't really think it matter much, from a user's perspective, what is running underneath it (what I mean by that is, while the laptops might be slower and more prone to crash with Windows [or maybe not], the *user interface experience* will be the same - that is to say, all the kids will see is Sugar, right?). So, I guess I wonder, from OLPC's standpoint, *why* they would bother putting the Windows XP kernel underneath of it, if the kids are just basically going to be using the same SugarOS and the applications developed for it. Why not use the Linux kernel which is better to begin with than the XP kernel, and has already, and continues to be, tuned just for the OLPC hardware?
"I'm sure it's not corporate altruism."
It's as "altruistic" as putting a steak in a beartrap.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
button still do exactly that?
How depressing....
expandfairuse.org
One Botnet Node Per Child
I suspect it will show something like:
msgbox ("This aplication has performed an ilegal opeartion an will now close")
close()
Read my blog you know you want to
Dear Dr. Negroponte
If you're getting in bed with someone you shouldn't be in bed with, then you're not staying pure, even if no payment is involved.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
The best way to beat something is to let them have the choice. They can choose to use Linux or not choose to. Either way, all of the negative energy because people have been given a choice seems strange to me. First, you claim you want Linux to be an option to buy, now that its Windows thats an option (rather than the default for once), you complain. Choice is a dual-edged sword. Not everyone wants to be a part of the "free as in speech" camp, just like not everyone wants to pay for software.
Besides, I know people would claimed foul if MS gave it away for free, so Linux DOES have an advantage here.
Regards,
MBC1977,
Folks, this guy is +42 Extra Super Insightful.
Dual-boot will be developed to pacify some OLPC supporters. It will never ship.
Likewise, Sugar will be ported to Windows. It too will never ship. Nobody wants it: not the we-want-Windows government officials, not the free software fans, and certainly not Microsoft. Look at Java and JavaScript if you want to know how Microsoft feels about somebody slapping a portable API or ABI over top of the Microsoft-controlled ones.
and fuck OLPC.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Somehow I doubt it. Think the Gates Foundation would be dumb enough to only give to the OLPC project if the OLPC agreed to load MS software? Wouldn't that violate the terms of a 501(c)3 foundation? (and cost them their tax exempt status.)
No surprise here, really. A long time back it was announced that the XO was being partly redesigned for the specific purpose of being able to load XP lite on it. What is surprising is that MS won't be paying anything to OLPC, but will be COLLECTING instead.
What did surprise me was coming out with XP on the EeePC. That got redesigned so that XP lite could fit on it. When I got mine, I considered XP, as it was the same price, and I figured I could dual boot it. But then I figured it'd have worse battery life, be slower.
After all, aren't they in the process of completely dropping XP from their development pathway? If that's for real, then this XP on OLPC is a load of bollocks, and should be dropped ASAP.
I'm not so worried about this latest power grabbing move from MS. I mean we all know this is about maintaining market share aggressively in the face of cheap and nimble competition.
All MS are effectively doing is giving away a pig of an OS that will run like a slug in treacle compared to the free alternative. That's bound to persuade some people to move to Linux.
Load two OSs and you need more disk space to do anything useful.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
The .NET framework is not memory nor CPU hunger and I think it will work as any application on Windows XP.
Office 2007 may not because of the 1gig or hi-definition resources.
And if you've given money to the OLPC money based on it's goals of openness? Refunds?
I'm just amazed at how they can try and sell this as not affecting the project much. They might as well add a stinking great padlock to each machine and give the keys to MS.
Oh - and think how much funny the kiddies will have infecting each other with whatever virus/rootkit/botnet/..... walks right through the rock solid MS OS.
This isn't a just a more-durable-than-average laptop, it was really made to last. Too bad they switched to M$ when they already had a custom distro, custom apps, and great networking. What are they thinking?
This is not a signature.
I see the Russian mob happily contributing $3 per laptop to the project now,
using the Moblin stack that will ultimately surpass the XO no matter what's running on it.
I don't think copyright is a big hindrance in most of the countries where XO laptops are expected to be popular.
Microsoft is just thinking "Instead of letting 1/3 of these run Windows for free, let's collect 3 dollars from ALL of them, further our brand, and look doing it."
It's sort of a no-brainer when you're only accountable for the short-term bottom line.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
A lot of people have just wasted a vast amount of time contributing software to this device. They could have said this was the plan from the start and maybe those people could have concentrated on hardware drivers or interesting Windows software for it. Instead an awful lot of man years of contributed effort is wasted by this moronic decision (no, not the decision to switch to XP. The decision to, for years, lie about what direction they were going, apparently to garner publicity).
I really am sickened by this.
Plain old regular Linux runs fast too. Sugar is another matter entirely. It's a fucking overgrown script, and it even uses D-BUS (an RPC mechanism, also known as "D-COM for Linux") for that extra special slowness.
.net of the Linux world.
Sugar and Python are the Vista and
This is the last nail, but you have to give him credit for hammering it in from inside the coffin.
Did anybody here actually try Sugar? I'd have replaced it with ms dos in a heart beat. And XP is clearly superior. If only they'd have been smart and initially went with some type of xubuntu derivative, or something that made some kind of rational sense, we'd have not lost yet another battle to the corporate monopoly.
It's not that Windows is better. It's just that Microsoft is smarter than the passionate FOSS community who is apparently stubborn and arrogant, and completely unaware of what is usable or not, Sugar being an AMAZING example.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
I think the point whizzed above your head at orbital altitude and velocity.
Linux has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this, it is the openness which Linux simply represents.
The whole point of the project was supposed to be enabling kids to learn to use/program computers and so the whole environment was supposed to provide them with a complete set of tools for such tasks. Putting XP on this thing adds nothing whatsoever to the value of such a laptop as XP not only takes away a degree of openness but it offers none of the other elements which are part of pretty much every Linux distribution: educational tools, text and graphics editing applications, development tools etc etc etc all in the storage space in which XP can barely fit itself.
So by essentially totally selling out, Negroponte has in effect killed the project and turned it into a glorified advertising campaign for Microsoft while at the same time dropping all the core objectives the project was supposed to stand for. The winners are: Microsoft, the corrupt, retarded governmental official in the developed countries who are taking kickbacks from Microsoft to push for Windows, regardless of what it actually means for the project and the losers are: the kids.
Also note that by doing this the OLPC now has become simply yet another low cost low power laptop vendor and as ongoing commoditization of hardware progresses apace, they will soon find themselves competing with the likes of ASUS who will be able to deliver more features for less money. The only thing of course ASUS and other low-cost brands won't do is to offer all the other aspects of the project, which Negroponte himself no longer gives a fuck about, and which were what made OLPC different.
Microsoft wins, some crooks get richer, all the kids in the developing world (and probably some in the Western world) lose. Simple as that.
One Lame PC.
I thought one of the major goals of the OLPC project was to promote usage of free software. As for now, I would say the best choice is a Linux-derived operating system (kernel has the best hardware support as far I know). If Microsoft is a choice, fine, but I seriously think the Windows market share is shrinking every day. It seems like everyone and their relative wants a Mac lately after Vista has come out.
.NET claiming it is the way of the future, mainly because C# is easier to learn than C or C++ (in my experience).
Regardless, I really think OLPC has lost its focus and I have so much less respect for allowing a totally closed operating system to be a choice for the computers. If they allow FreeBSD, Syllable, and other free open source operating systems, that is fine. They may not have necessarily have everything they need for children to learn from, but they are free and open source.
Linux and whatever distro is the best choice. How many 'edutainment' applications are on Windows by default? 0! Everyone knows Windows is hardly useful on a default install: a file manager, calculator, Soliatire (a few other card games), a really horrible browser, and a really horrible media player. Does Microsoft promote open source development? No! They have 'Express' editions of Visual Studio, but that is exactly it. They are 'Express' editions. They are begging for people to stick with Windows when they do things like this. And now they have
This is not the way to go for OLPC. It is terrible that governments have these choices: promote free software, development, learning, and social contribution; or spend a little more money for an OS that is nearly useless by default, and the people who use it will be locked in once they are settled with whatever software they find to use. Most likely the software they choose to use on Windows will have spyware, and they will use IE (do you think Microsoft will promote another browser?!) and get adware/spyware/crappy toolbars. I cannot wait to have even more infested Windows computers connected on-line, which could do damage (this is precisely the reason why IE7 got non-WGA'd by Microsoft: security). Luckily I'm on Linux 90% of the time.
There is no technical or educational reason to put Windows on the OLPC. Since this isn't full desktop Windows, Windows doesn't work any better on these machines than Linux, it doesn't enable any educationally relevant software to be run, and it doesn't enable any relevant drivers to be installed.
It's odd that Negroponte accuses open source developers of being blinded by ideology; the only person I see being blinded by ideology is him, and he is really screwing the OLPC project because of it.
Seriously, how did the OLPC not recognize this as a monopoly solidification ploy in the most obvious way? The real story here is where's the really money being funneled?
What's up with this box everyone has to think inside of or outside of? Why does there have to be a box?
'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said.
That's like saying you got caught in bed with a hooker but were only talking.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
The virus seeks to perpetuate itself
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
There's a Pulitzer in here somewhere. This smells of corruption, of one hand washing another, of deals behind secretive doors. If I were a young journalist student graduating, I would be following the money trail of Mr Negroponte & Co.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Absolutely. Sugar, the interface is not that snappy, but it should appeal to kids, which is what this program _WAS_ all about. Sugar was also designed for mesh networking with other OLPCS to share videos, tam tam projects, codes, writing, whatever. With XP, you would lose the mesh network feature and now have to navigate network through network explorer?? I don't think that's a win. Clearly having XP available for OLPC means western consumers can actually use one. I am actually looking forward to getting XP on mine so I can use it. I don't care about hacking on Sugar anymore. Maybe OLPC is trying to survive... generate revenue through western consumers with XP machines to continue R&D but ship Linux versions to 3rd world countries. I hope so, but I don't know. But back to my original topic: Why has Apple been silent? Sometimes inaction speaks as loudly as action. In the case of Apple, who gloriously donated thousands of Macs to schools in the US, they could've ported OSX to it easily (look at the iPhone). They could've saved the project and be seen as a savior. I think most people here would prefer OSX on it than XP, am I right, even though they are both closed. Of course, it would eat away at Apple's high margins and no, we don't want that. I think it all comes down to is all corporations are financially motivated. Apple and Microsoft aren't all that different, although they acted differently in this case.
so I can get Qt or Qtopia running on it and make a sweet little portable device.
"Recursive bipartite matching"- try it!
That's the thing, is that, there's an aweful lot of children's software written for Windows, games, educational titles, and what not. There just isn't much out there for Linux for kids. Now, if you could play games on a $200 PC, that's not too shabby at all.
This is my sig.
Why would anyone even those in the developing world want an OS that is 7 years old and isn't going to be supported for very much longer? Add the fact that it's a closed system, there are no applications designed specifically for it and it takes more hardware to make it work even remotely ok. Seems like a really stupid idea to take up the offer.
I stopped being a Negroponte fan a while back. The OLPC is an amazing program that has been destroyed by his bad business decisions. He has fought from the very beginning against providing the OLPC to 1st world countries. So instead of simply selling them to anyone for $200 and letting the economies of scale drive the price down, he has doomed the project from ever reaching the goal of a $100 laptop. By forcing 1st world customers (who actually have money) to pay $400 in the give one get one, he has eliminated the vast majority of potential buyers. So what if he allows Windows on the system? It will never be successful until they stop fighting market forces.
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
To me, the most exciting part of OLPC is the development of a completely free and open stack of learning software. The hardware for this round of computers will eventually break down and need to be replaced. But the software can continually be improved upon, and contributed to freely by anyone. Ten years from now the hardware will be even cheaper. The software is what will make these devices useful for learning.
When you look to the long term, it is a great advantage to have all the software be free, all the way down to the OS. This ensures that it can always be reused and built upon. If Windows is at the core of the system, there will be too many chances to rely on Windows specific hooks and to use commercial, Windows-based software to solve various problems. Even if doing so is useful in the short term, it will only weaken the project in the long run by making it dependent on the companies who control the proprietary code.
I don't deny that I dislike Windows. If using Windows could somehow cut the price by a third and get the OLPC into the hands of more kids, I would gladly put my preference aside. But the idea that they're making the laptops more expensive while moving away from the project's vision is just sad to see.
You are probably right (usually nothing exciting happens). But, are not the US financial woes a bit more fundamental than lack of competition with Europe? Isn't the problem that the US economy is based on assumptions that production actually occurs inside the US - whereas this is less and less true?
Ever since the dollar has fallen, US manufacturers have been breathing a big sigh of relief. For all of his other faults, Bush's Presidency has seen US Exports rise to a staggering contribution of nearly 15% of GDP. Unfortunately, this success is being drowned out by high oil prices. All we need now is for the next President to continue the track towards free trade, let the dollar continue a modest but perhaps more gradual decline, but also keep in place those other incentives needed to help ensure a transition towards a smarter energy economy. Once the USA gets off of foreign oil, we Americans will be an export juggernaut but also armed to the teeth with a ton of new alternative energy solutions.
This is my sig.
I cannot wait to have even more infested Windows computers connected on-line, which could do damage
The US Air Force is in on this together with Microsoft and the NSA. Where do you suppose they plan on getting that offensive botnet they want on "any and all operating systems"? Think of the power this will give them - these OLPC all have cameras - they represent potentially millions of remote spys! - and costs them nothing. Kids are everywhere... nobody would notice some kid walking by with with his little toy laptop.
Oh well. Can't appease everyone.
You know that feeling you got when Walter Bender left the project over a disagreement with Nicholas? That "Wozniak has left the building" feeling? Turns out we were right.
I think we can safely say that this has nothing to education of the third world or software idealism or even free market economics but is simply a nasty little case of cronyism and under the table deals. Nicholas is a board member and OLPC is a nonprofit. Last time I checked board members of nonprofits don't draw a salary.
This is the thing I hate about our current system. See, it would be one thing if they just flat out stated what they were doing, "It's in our corporate best interests to make sure that everyone learns to use our software, so we're going to make this cheap laptop and put Windows on it and sell it to third world kids." I would actually have a little grudging respect for that.
But no, once again the system has eaten up idealism and spat out lies and manipulation. Most people involved in this project were idealists who thought they were bringing something good and pure into the world. Many of them were devoted to open source. And they just got fucked, and the motherfuckers who did it to them are laughing all the way to the bank.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
If Negroponte was unsatisfid with sugar, why not just ditch it for a normal linux distribution? At least that would preserve the openness, inexpensiveness, and allow the OLPC project control. It's not like the sugar project and windows xp were the only options.
You make a lot of good points, and they're well-taken.
My counter-argument would be that just because you use Windows or develop on Windows doesn't mean that you don't support open-source or openness in general.
There are educational tools, graphics editing applications, and any number of things that can be included with Windows for the OLPC, and the solutions can be open source. Kids can still grow up using the world's most popular operating system, and understand how it works, while still being exposed to open-source software.
Additionally, since dual-booting appears to be an option, kids can have the best of both worlds.
I understand that XP doesn't come with these tools preinstalled, but I believe that would be more cause for concern over Microsoft's monopolistic power. Even if they endorsed GIMP and distributed it as part of their OS, Adobe would go bonkers.
From your own link:
"OLPC should be philosophically pure about its own machines. Being a non-profit that leverages goodwill from a tremendous number of community volunteers for its success and whose core mission is one of social betterment, it has a great deal of social responsibility. It should not become a vehicle for creating economic incentives for a particular vendor. It should not believe the nonsense about Windows being a requirement for business after the children grow up. Windows is a requirement because enough people grew up with it, not the other way around. If OLPC made a billion people grow up with Linux, Linux would be just dandy for business. And OLPC shouldn't make its sole OS one that cripples the very hardware that supposedly set the project's laptops apart: released versions of Windows can neither make good use of the XO power management, nor its full mesh or advanced display capabilities."
(bold added by me)
I hope MS pays you by the quantity of your shilling rather than the quality.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Go ahead and argue over software; however don't let that stop hardware and sofware getting into the hands of developing nations to teach them, whatever they're being taught on. The more experience you garner, the more easily your skills are transferrable. Just get them started.
Ok, I'll bite. C'mon! Get on board with the real Negroponte - let's all become self-aggrandizing douche pails who sell out while shafting both the donors and, of course, the very reason that the program exists - the poor. Screw them all!! I want to become a greedy sleaze-ball too. Where do I go and how much blood do I require to sign up??
*** Don't be dull.***
The idea is that you could get third-party software licensed (or heck, even donated) for the OLPC. That's what independent developers are doing already. Does Microsoft promote open source development? No! They have 'Express' editions of Visual Studio, but that is exactly it. They are 'Express' editions. They are begging for people to stick with Windows when they do things like this. And now they have
Personally, I believe in C#'s future as a programming language, and the fact that it's an open standard is even better. I came from C++ which I programmed for over a decade, and I was happy to be able to focus on getting things done than worrying about being distracted by things that the VM can take care of. But again, largely this is a personal preference, and I know plenty of programmers who consider my words heresy. I don't think C++ can be eliminated completely; not at this point anyway.
I saw Windows XP on Eee PC at the Cebit. It was pretty awful: a standard desktop OS on an 480x800 screen. When you opened the Internet explorer 40 percent of the screen was filled with the GUI and the toolbars. As a matter of fact XP cannot run properly on a screen that does not provide 600x800 because some dialog boxes are bigger than that. If Windows should be an alternative for these PC they have to change XP. Are they willing to put a reasonable amount of development ressources in an out-of-date OS?
The first and the foremost goal of OLPC is to educate kids in the third world nations. Whatever other goals anybody has should not come in the way of this primary goal. OLPC is an educational tool. We in the FOSS world are using this tool to promote our ideals. There is nothing wrong with it. But we should not cloud the primary goal of the project just to promote our world view. If the primary goal of the project is best served by using Windows XP, OSX or any other OS, then that OS should be used irrespective of OS's open source/free software status. And about the argument that kids will not be able to view source and learn, why do we assume that the kids wants to learn computer internals or software development? Majority of those kids will not end up in software domain. They will end up being doctors, architects, other engineering fields, manual laborers, Govt servants, etc. Even among those who end up in software development field, a fraction might be interested in OS internals and development and have the required aptitude. Why are we holding the remaining 99% (yes the statistics taken out of my ass, but show me any other statistics which says there are more than 1% of general population is interested in learning OS development) for ransom? Source code for all the stack running above Windows is still available and can be viewed. Windows does bring the advantage of being used most in the real world. This might prepare the reamining 99% kids to grow up and be employable in the real world. We in the FOSS world should not let our ideals and principles cloud our view of real world. Flame away
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
You soul is over there Mr. Negroponte. In the light. Now, just out of reach. Foolish man, Microsoft has never helped anyone but itself.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
OK Nick
You sold out... and your proud that you recieved NOTHING from MS for doing it?
OK, that is just plain stupid. At least when I sell my soul to my employer, they pay me.
I don't see why anyone should be surprised. The OLPC was clearly designed as a free R&D project from the beginning. Not free as in speech, but free as in, "hey, lets CALL it a charity. That way we don't have to fork out money for our R&D". When the OLPC was listed out at $100 I said it was way too expensive. I went on line and found all of the components to build a hand powered computer for $89. Single Unit Pricing. No, this wouldn't get you an x86 processor, or an 800x600 screen, but is that REALLY Necessary? The OLPC was billed as being for education. Do you really need a late 90's to early 2000's x86 to accomplish that goal? Definitely not. Do you really need WiFi? Definitely not. Do you need cameras? No. The whole design was clearly built around the idea of trying out new low power devices for later sale in the 1st world.
Honestly the OLPC isn't any better for it's stated goal than a $130 Nintendo DS would be if it came with a dev cart. If they really wanted to make a $200 computer, they would have been better off having Nintendo make a new flavor of DS that was not quite compatible, had an Black and White screen, and had an SD slot instead of a cartridge slot. It wouldn't have broken Nintendos 1st world market, yet it would have been just as useful, and less expensive than the OLPC.
I'm not sure if this is a disagreement with what you said or a clarification, but personally I don't think Microsoft cares about training these users at all. Microsoft wouldn't have given it a second thought if OLPC didn't take the initiative. Even if these kids are trained on Windows, it's unlikely they'll ever be a huge source of income for Microsoft or any other proprietary businesses, compared with the money made in developed places.
I think what frightens Microsoft, given that the children will get trained with or without Microsoft, is the possibility of any other platform ending up with some kind of dominance through popularity in third world countries. Microsoft's dominance comes through its monopolistic control and lock-in practices, and if non-Microsoft platforms become too dominant in third world countries, it'll almost certainly propagate to more developed countries in one form or another, reducing the control that Microsoft has. (ie. Customers will be demanding the ability to use open protocols, file formats, etc, so they can properly interact with those in third world countries.) Such a prospect has caused Microsoft's rather ruthless marketing and management machine to jump up and do whatever's necessary to stop that from happening, even though it might mean using subversive tactics to undermine the OLPC programme.
Actually I have no doubt that many people in Microsoft, probably including most at ground level, have nothing but the best intentions and fully believe that Windows is a good thing for OLPC, since that's what you tend to do when you're embedded in such a corporate atmosphere. I also have no doubt that there are subversive tactics and strategic decisions going on around this at a marketing and management level.
OLPC Principle #5: Free and Open Source: Give me a free and open environment and I will learn and teach with joy.
The hardest thing to do is live up to your own rhetoric.
Most MS "partners" eventually got bitten by their deals, so the clock is ticking for OLPC.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
If you're going to get emerging markets hooked on an OS, may as well do it with on that works. Granted, MS won't support it for too long, but still . . .
The Internet is generally stupid
Yeah ... and there's no way to DRM a real book.
Put identity in the browser.
You sound very much like a Microsoft troll.
Despite these people in the so called third world are poor, they are not stupid.
If what you are saying is true, then the problem is even worse, this means that the people of these poor countries need a LOT of eduction about free software and the risks and obstacles with proprietary software. If I was Negroponte I would arrange eduction for these leaders and I would invite Stallman, and I would talk myself. It is of uttermost importance that these countries not fall in the same trap as large parts of the Western computer illiterates have done.
So what happens when the local government wants to localize the UI for a northern hill tribe with a different dialect? Do they request this from MS?
Put identity in the browser.
So what happens when some poor kids out in the middle of nowhere suddenly get a load of virus shit and spyware breaking the O/S? Will MS we flying out to with free copies or McAfee or Symantec? Also these kids have next to nothing to start with, some days they barely have enough to eat, so when they want some software that word of mouth has got around is pretty neat, are they going to be buying licenses from Adobe or MS etc? No, so local bloke will either hold them so ransom for the next 15 years over the software they got from him or someone will get some knocked off gear and next thing you know, the entire country is running on pirated software, of course M$ won't give a stuff so long as they are running pirated stuff on Windows, they have 'em hooked! At least if it's Linux the software will be free so no nasty, vile US mega-corp can go marching in and demanding these kids hand all the laptops back, that have dodgy software on them. M$ have to get their f**king snout in the trough, f**k you Gates and the dog you rode in on!!! I can tolerate M$ and Gates, even that loud-mouth, chair-chucking prat, Ballmer, but this just.....deep breaths.....
Windows guys please stop pissing on everyone and the Linux guys stop pissing in the wind, hoping to hit Windows guys!
Or did you think they got the chips at cost? Or the manufacturer assembled the machine at cost? Or that nobody at the foundation was paid for their time?
In an ideal world, MS would have given it for free I agree, but don't single them out for making money on the 3rd world in this way.
As a Mac (but not Apple, there is a difference!) fan-boy I am just surprised that they didn't take up Steve Jobs's offer for free OS X now that it has become clear they need a more mainstream OS to make it a success.
This is the end ...
The revolution got sold boys. http://radian.org/notebook/sic-transit-gloria-laptopi
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
$3/$7 machine is quite a bit to truly poor countries. That's disgusting. What exactly did MS offer? Or was it just schmooze-fu?
But replace the following words:
...and you're back to the reason why they are developing countries in the first place.
Microsoft with British Empire
Windows sold below cost with textiles sold below cost (with an effective business model behind it that liquidates the indigenous economy and local resources)
2008+ with 1608+
You've also got a very cheap future workforce available to you (and this time you don't have to chain them).
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
Paraphrasing something I posted on OLPC News, I think the real loss here is Bitfrost which to me was one of the most interesting software developments to come out of the OLPC project. I remember reading somewhere that Ivan Krstic (the main architect behind it) was working on wrappers to help Bitfrost be usable on other flavours of Linux, but somehow I can't see it working on the XP XO...
If the maintainer of a project takes it in a direction you don't want, you fork.
That's the strength of OSS, isn't it?
You don't need to grow up using MS Word or Excel to competently use them when you get older. Those programs did not exist when I grew up, yet I have no trouble using them. The use of any word processor or spreadsheet program is more than enough to understand and use other such programs.
The hope many people had for the project was that it could teach them more than that. It could teach them how to look at code and modify it themselves. They could take apart the computer and learn about the parts.
The point of the project was not to turn lots of kids into M$ office drones.
MS ties users to windows by the applications. If the applications (FOSS) also run under another OS then switching to linux or another OS later is not a problem.
Didnt you hear? MS are not a monopoly. Look... there is Apple, and there is RedHat, and Ubuntu, etc. MS use this approach every time someone says they are a monopoly. As i recall Ms even invested in Apple when it was going through bad times to ensure they had a competitor to point to. However, good point, im sure there must be something in the law about this sort of tactic. Would be great if everyone did start demanding XP at $3 a license. It would probably push their sales figures through the roof!
Strongly agree. I think Sugar had - has - the potential to be the next big thing in user interface. It's a complete new look at how the graphical user interface works, and in my opinion it looks streets ahead of the conventional WIMP interfaces we're using now.
Of course, Sugar is a project which is, at least potentially, independent of OLPC. I really hope that enough of a community will carry on developing Sugar to make it a viable alternative desktop, not just for third world children, but for all of us.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
When we see news reels showing kids jumping up and down on top of their POS OLPCs because XP doesn't really run well on the damn things and it crashes all the time. Maybe they should focus on making an XBOX OLPC instead... same thing really. One is for the deprived, the other is for the spoiled little brats, right? Or maybe MS should focus on making the XBOX more of an educational device.
ebooks costing more than paper???
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
Now the kids will have to get used to patch Tuesday and Blue Screen of Death and DLL hell. Yep, great way to introduce the youngsters of the world to computing.
Many of the developing world billionaires are concerned about their countries and work hard to bring employment there (contrast it with America's). Simply approach a couple of these ppl and point out that a design has been done and is capable of being done by these countries for near the same price. Once they realize that they can use this as a springboard while getting off the MS cycle, one or several will pick it up. Sadly, it will probably kill off OLPC, but then again, they are now just a zombie.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This announcement makes OLPC just another computer manufacturer, no longer a charity whose success is championed in my heart.
Take a giant step back, this is like holding a charity telathon to fight hunger, then taking the donations and using them to build a few hundred McDonalds in the inner city, and handing out 'half off' coupons to the poor neighborhood kids to help them with their empty stomachs..
I think Negroponte and the rest of the board could be personally liable for conversion and fraud. They raised enormous support from the community in the form of programming efforts, money, and time under the guise of FOSS only to turn the whole thing over to directly support Microsoft's strategy for commercial success in the third-world. One is left wondering how long ago Negroponte planned this and what his personal gain is from the deal.
Remember, when you're on the board of an organization -even a nonprofit, you can't just act on your own whim. Save The Dolphins can't just go open up a gill-netting operation and cackle merrily all the way to the bank, the board has a fiduciary duty to stakeholders that binds their actions. I, for one, would love to see them all thrown in jail.
How about it? Go go gadget EFF!
There is no such thing as "very pure". You can be either pure or not. Negroponte must decide where he stands.
How does this reflect with all people that promoted the OLPC as a tool to propagate the values of free software, I don't know. Many people are very upset.
It may still be a wonderful educational tool, but a lot of the original message will be lost. It will either be OK not to help your peers by not being able to give software away or it will be OK to pirate software. That's just wrong.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
A question I would like to put to Mr. Negroponte, What technalogical advantage does putting XP confer on the OLPC? Before you say it, and no, I'm not talking about 'feetures'. What functionality doesn't the XO provode that the third world would need? Web Browser, Word Processor, Email, Instant Messenging, VoIP Programs, Media Player ..
davecb5620@gmail.com
And to think this was just so Negroponte's love of Flash could be fulfilled... I wonder how does he fell now about those 20000 kids that won't have their laptops anymore.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
As soon as the OLPC installs free trial versions of Norton, AOL etc.
After all that's why it's cheaper to buy a Dell with windows than Linux.
It's, among other things, what allows auto discovery of devices, plug-and-play and auto mounting on modern linux distros.
... all the territory here is well burnt, the OLPC project destroyed, and then let's move on to the next mean thing."
We won't see any updates ever to this XP for OLPC, I presume.
It'll be three laptops per child...
From the start, Microsoft offered PC makers the option of pre-loading MS-Windows on PCs. Remember, most people had to install MS-DOS themselves. Then setup MS-Windows. But then, as MS-Windows evolved and shed MS-DOS, PCs came preloaded with Windows. How convenient. Ever since then and until the DOJ ruling, no one has been able to pre-install any other OS except MS-Windows on an OEM PC. Some PC manufacturers do offer Linux, but it is behind the scenes. Not really out there for the average person to see. Why? Because Microsoft puts the screws into the PC manufacturers and structures the MS-Windows promotional packages so that it is tied to the extreme discounts PC makers can have of licensing MS-Windows. If the DOJ did not at least bring Microsoft's anti-trust actions to light, you would have never had Linux on PCs today, I guaranteed it.
Now we have a flip situation, where a PC platform started off with Linux. And now to be "fair" (***see note below) we are going to include MS-Windows in a dual-boot form alongside Linux.
So some PC manufacturers who really want to offer Linux (like Dell) might be able to, in the light of DOJ observation or just in the public eye, offer Linux in a dual-boot form on their MS-Windows only PCs. After all, we want this to be as convenient as possible for consumers of computer technology so they have
"a choice."
---
*** oh, excuse me, I shouldn't say it that way, "to be fair." We all know that everyone REALLY WANTS MS-Windows, so why should we withhold technology that "everybody wants." Shame on me. I should know better that the current atmosphere does offer a "fair" choice already. Could it even be "better" than that? Yes. And that is the unfairness of it. We do have better technology out there than MS-Windows. But if that better technology is artificially held back on the same hardware platform, a majority of people will ever know about it. Especially schools and low-income people who are stuck paying into technology that really could be improved, but can't, because a big fat gorilla holds it all at bay. And in the United States at least, the government presided by the Bush administration who quieted the DOJ for Microsoft because of campaign contributions, is letting them. 'See http://www.linux.com/articles/35173 and Google')
will gladly educate Mr. Negroponte on how a non-profit gets away with Fraud and Conversion in the public eye.
Governments decide between the $203 proprietary version (XP) and the $207 source-available version (XP+GNU/Linux) purchased in lots of 1M. They'll see no advantage to choosing the more expensive version.
They could buy both to pass the choice to their citizens, but as most citizens don't mind which UI they use, don't need the source, and are poor, it makes no sense for the government to spend $4M per lot just for a mere _option_ which most people won't use.
Therefore, individual kids, parents and teachers may not have the choice, even when they can afford the extra $4. XP version or no laptop at all.
This is because the OLPC is not sold as individual customised items (like Dell), but in large uniform batches through governments. And we know how much poor governments love spend extra money on giving individuals lots of choice in public services.
Choice in one place may not always lead to choice where it matters.
I hope it does though.
I don't care about karma points this time, I have plenty to burn...
Some people need to get off their moral high horses for a second and look where OLPC has made it so far. Now this is no fault of Linux inherently, but after all the work they've done, it's not very usable. Not compared to a modern system, but as a computer period. The OLPC is a system where you cannot differentiate between files and "journal" events so every time you open a file it creates an alias of it indistinguishable from the original (unless you delete an alias and it breaks all the others but leaves the file intact...)
YOU CAN'T EVEN SAVE YOUR PLACE IN A BOOK. That pretty much makes it worthless as a textbook or book reader unless you write the page number on a piece of paper and scroll to it.
The activities are cool. There's no reason they can't take them along. But I think they saw how slowly and poorly things were going, swallowed a LOT of pride, and decided to go the functional route. Win XP you can do things like... find a 100% free program, install it, and NOT NEED TO START IT FROM THE COMMAND PROMPT! Even if it's not specially prepared by OLPC! If you think it crashes all the time you're either computer illiterate or haven't used Windows since Win98. Security? Maybe a problem since these will ostensibly mostly be on the net - but as they are now you can just back up whatever data is on it, plug in a USB flashdrive with the software+firmware and boot with buttons held down and the system reimages. We're not talking about downing a multimillion dollar corporation here, more like a kid's laptop starts acting slowly (apparently because the teachers allowed admin access to every student - wait, why do that?) so you save their work and zap it back to brand new then reload the data. With current functionality this "data" would be a couple MB of textfiles and maybe a few movie/picture recordings.
If you've never used one and never will, you're just guessing what's best. As ever, this is about giving poor kids working laptops to learn with. As for $3 to $7? They were already that much more expensive before they cheapened the process further. You could save more cash by not having Wifi or a color screen (not much since it's a diffraction grating that splits the colors out...) What's the good of a cheaper laptop if it's not useful? Really people, I have a couple of these things and I love them, but they're just not there yet and it's been too long, the project is in danger of being overrun by the market they basically created for devices like this. Don't get all bent out of shape because some kids in places you don't know for certain will be using a laptop you've never seen and it WON'T be running Linux! The horror.
"So many laptops, so little time"
- Kunga the Botmaster
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
But it is counter-productive in the light of the supposed goals of the project. The Windows (or OS X) platforms do remove to a large degree an ability of a kid to examine how things work under the hood and also decrease the amount of space available for all the other tools. Also the development tools themselves for Windows are far from free and also gigantic when it comes to storage. Microsoft Visual C++ or .NET tool-chains are around 500MB in size!
But they will not be the dominant tools for the platform, all of which are super-commercial, hyper-expensive and again, gigantic in size. Windows + OpenOffice or GIMP are not a "natural" combination run by 90% of users, Windows + MS Office + Photoshop are. So you have gained nothing again at all, but only lost disk space, flexibility and openness.
That gets you even less. A dual booted system would have to contain something useful on both OSes. That means that Linux will come with everything the kid needs and Windows with ... either copies of what the Linux has or the proverbial bupkis, or even worse, crippled ad-ware "trial" versions of US corporato-crapware, full versions of which the kids could never even dream to afford. What is the gain again? And do you really believe that Microsoft, having in effect taken over the OLPC project, will now allow a situation where Windows will be put in such a comparative dis-advantage? No way. They will force the removal of dual-boot and push for inclusion of commercial cripple-ware instead of open tools. And now they will succeed.
That is why all of these companies will be pushing for crippleware to be pre-loaded and thus taking all the available space. There will be no "dual boot" (other then on paper and in theory - an option no bribed governmental official from the developing world will opt for) and no gain for the kids. The purpose of the project has now been hijacked by Microsoft (and through them by the other US corps) to become an advertising/indoctrination platform with next to zero "educational" value.
It is a complete fiasco now because Negroponte in essence is offering an aura of "legitimacy" to a base, naked attempt at essentially spamming the schools of the developed world with US corporate "culture" (at the taxpayers expense no less - as they will all take "educational" and "foreign aid" tax exemptions and what not) and thus ensuring that US corporations, Microsoft particularly, get to dominate any future these kids have. Expansion of their horizons or freedom to learn have been sacrificed at the altar of limitless corporate greed and imperial ambitions of the US corporations.
I purchased two OLPC PCs because I believed so strongly in the OLPC projects intent.
Now that I find out that a portion of my DONATION to the OLPC project is ending up in the pockets of Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer makes me fuckin' retch!
Mr. Negroponte has done more to damage the goodwill of people and the soul of open source more than Bill Gates, Novell and Darryl McBride even did!
AN UTTER FUCKIN' SELLOT!
"Negroponte" always did remind me of a super-villian
Any more than Bill Gates or Microsoft (or Jobs/Apple or even Linus/x) is God.
The computer is just a tool.
Unless it's running MSwhatever, in which case, the user is just a tool, and the computer+MSwhatever is what they used to call idolatry.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Linux is defunct.
Uh huh. Sure.
You ever heard of something called raising the bar to doing good?
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
If the proof were a snake, you'd be swelling up and turning odd colors and rolling on the ground by now, because you've obviously been bit.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
No Linux.
You want a Linux distro, you pay for your copy of XP anyway.
Asustek says selling the Linux version in Japan is "under consideration"
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
It would sure be nice to live in a society where everybody understood the stopping problem and what it means.
I mean, there's at least about 50% hope that, understanding the problem, they'd quit trying to use computers to solve the stopping problem.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
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I am not going to waste my time anymore wondering about this great marvel that just got sucked up by big money. It is a waste of time and money to do something corporately with this project and make it fly. It wasn't designed to do that from the start. This can be redone again, just with a commitment to Open Source and Freedom and actual benefit to the end user, not about lining someone pockets with whatever financial resource is left of the poorest of the dirt-poor.
====
Want Freedom? http://pcfreedomusa.com/
The original idea as I understood it was, build an educational aid primarily to replace paper textbooks electronically but also capable of doing a bit more than that, then let a bunch of kids muck about with the more general-purpose side of it. Most won't get much beyond running a document viewer and text editor, some will experiment with sound and graphics, but a minority will get heavily into programming it and they may then go on to do other things. (Note that the mic input to the sound card on this beast is DC-coupled, so it can even be used as an A-D converter. My old BBC model B had an A-D port, which was the business for connecting up various kinds of sensors.)
The fact that the majority of kids get to learn something useful using electronic "textbooks" and "exercise books" is a great side benefit, for sure. The fact that some will go on to start a tech industry in those countries is the beginning of the shift from developing world to developed world. The fact that all this is achieved without the involvement of predatory Western corporations -- and that means Microsoft -- is crucially important, because it means that those countries' IT industries, and their customers, aren't just going to end up working their backsides off to make rich Westerners richer.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Interesting how when Steve Jobs offered OS X for free, which runs easily on low-power devices, OLPC turned them down. But MS, offering a chopped XP for $$, is welcomed?
Doesn't compute to me.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Called it.
Arrange for a massive meeting of third world leaders to have a burned out hippy explain to them why they should not embrace business and money? You're implying involving Stallman in a major world consortium on anything other than maintaining emacs?
You fail this thought experiment. I said "let's pretend we're not idiots for a second" and here I've got one idiotic comment.
So why would I respect Gates more than Stallman? This is really quite simple. Gates is a self-made wealthy man who donates billions to philanthropist activities. Stallman is just some former hippy who talks a lot about an American software counterculture movement. Stallman disabled the wifi module on his XO Laptop because it wasn't free. If I lived in a place where we had very little, I think I'd be more interested in functionality than ideals. In Africa, people make use of garbage technology like windmills from bicycles and such, they do not patent these things and they pay not attention to the license or patent of what they're working with. They simply can't afford to. Licensing crimes are only an issue in nations that can actually afford licenses in the first place. It all comes down to Maslow's hierarchy. People on slashdot want to make the third world into an idealist software world the same way missionaries want to make it into an idealist Christian world. In reality, they will embrace any of these ideals if it means getting their hands on more money and food and medicine for their growing population. However, if someone offers just a little bit more to them- like in the case of a working Windows which can be used to train technology professionals instead of the completely lame and useless Sugar, which only applies to young children who will never use real computers- they might just take it on account of what's more useful.
Most students just use the XO to look at porn anyway. If I were a third world leader, I would be more interested in buying a printing press and set of modern books so I can just create bootleg textbooks for my nation with the money you spend on that little toy.
I've always found the XO to be a lot more useful for self-congratulation than actual education. It was a fun feel good project for everyone, but it ultimately ended up being a Redhat venture. Here we think of Redhat as a 'good guy' company and Microsoft as a 'bad guy' company, so we dismiss the fact that this project is monetized from the start.
If I were involved in third world education, I would not waste time or money on this OLPC project. Dvorak (i believe) once called this an American solution to an international problem. The reality of the matter is that a third world school needs only a handful of computers (if even) if they want to teach students about computing and a whole hell of a lot of text books, decent teachers, and paper and writing utensils for its students. If we were really interested in the welfare of these places, we'd have intensive programs to bring African college students to America to train them on engineering, infrastructure, and education. I'm sure this happens to some extent, but the reality remains that Africa is the world's dartboard for idealistic half-solutions to very real problems.
Microsoft are smart enough to realise that mindshare is the key factor which will determine their chances of survival in future OS markets. The only thing which can possibly come from this is another generation who learn to use computers in the context of the obfuscated Microsoft approach: Removed from the real technology, and inadvertantly locked into Windows' GUI conventions and file formats. What a gutless capitulation by the OLPC project.
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Man, some people on Slashdot need a clue-by-four upside the head. The parent was a well written alternate point of view, so let's mod it a troll! For a site where so many people get in an uproar about censorship, it sure seems like sometimes this community does an awful lot of self-censoring.
Well said and I kind of overshot that point. I still think the idea is excellent, but even if they were classrooms in a box we couldn't just drop them on people and hope for enlightenment to spring up.
What I think would be much better is if we could get a large library of free, multi-language textbooks and then start worrying about the platform. The XOs come with a chunk of Wikipedia, and some fun apps it would be hard not to learn and explore with, but it's still too far off. I think with XP they could at least have a large library of free software to choose from even though I also see the advantage of a... sounds weird, but basically proprietary open source system that has only educational tools available for it, so that is IS only a learning tool.
But mostly I see it as a potential tipping point to where you could have 50 textbooks on a computer for the cost of one textbook over here (or less than some of mine!) The rest is up to the communities they land in.
Would it be too paranoid to expect that the government customers that approached OLPC about wanting Windows, had themselves been approached by Microsoft to be convinced that they wanted Windows?
Didn't the same thing happen when Intel, as a member of the OLPC team sent out its sales force to sell against the OLPC? It'd be pretty naive to think that "more comfortable with Windows" was the only reason. There's comfort and comfort.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Right, well, there's definitely some validity to something that can be all your textbooks and more. In the OLPC context, this product has generated a lot more developer interest than other brands of important academic involvement.
While we're on the solution train, let's talk about a realistic solution that is transparent to this issue.
Portability is a big issue, and as such we need something that goes beyond all issues of platform: pure content. More often than not, the wiki approach to free textbooks provides decent information presented in a subject-locked format, as people more or less like to contribute that which they are specialized in. As anyone with an education background can tell you, lesson plans are intricate. The best option would be a series of Creative Commons licensed textbooks that are basically labeled as 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc. with all included core subjects. These should represent the basic requirements of primary education. This core unified textbook should include a teacher's edition and a model lesson plan. Under a creative commons model, they are free to be translated or censored by a government which would otherwise restrict education to protect itself. These should be available in three formats: a text only format, a format where all images and diagrams are represented as black and white line art (for cheap black and white printing), and a full color format. This will provide maximum portabiliy between the digital and paper format, allowing greater freedom to the nations in order to apply solutions.
Whether an idea like this is read in an XO or on paper should be completely transparent, but one thing is certain: this is larger than just free software. I disagree wholeheartedly with the belief that this project should be restricted to the free software platform, as education should be able to cross idealistic bounds to better garner talent, usability, and to serve the students and governments which employ it. If Microsoft wishes to donate their expertise to this matter, they should be welcomed.
The OLPC project will die now, because it has thoroughly offended all the idealistic open source people who might have contributed for free. From now on, OLPC will need to pay for its R & D, and this will quickly drain the project's resources. Microsoft will probably make some token gestures but it will not be a savior: the company's goal has been to kill the project. So the OLPC will flame out.
But Microsoft is going to lose the war. OLPC proved that there is a huge and lasting market for an inexpensive and fully functional computer. The hardware cost of these little gadgets is so low that the Microsoft tax becomes a significant burden. Microsoft has enough clout to force a few manufacturers to pay the tax anyway, but these companies will quickly be overwhelmed by those who do not pay the tax. And there will be lots of tax dodgers: the market for the little computers is so huge that Microsoft will be unable to stem the tide.
The consesquences for Microsoft are grim. Cheap computers running Linux will quickly take over the low end of the PC market, then grow upwards. A company as bloated as Microsoft cannot survive for long by charging $3 per machine for Windows and Office. (Office wlll have to be included since the little Linux computers will have OpenOffice.)
Microsoft will slowly starve. The company may never completely disappear, but it is set to shrink drastically in size and influence.
Exactly. And microsoft should have kept it free. Nickel and diming 3rd world CHILDREN.
Way to go.
OLPC sucks.
Imagine all the children who'd be happier with a DS.
And DS has WiFi.
Technical innovations like the XO display would not remain an OLPC exclusive for very long.
OLPC's market is the education minister. In the third world, a market an inch wide and a mile deep. His first concern will be the XO's place and performance in the elementary grades.
He may be skeptical of constructionism.
In the expectation that something magical is going to happen if you simply expose the source code of an OS or an application in a grade school classroom.
His second concern will be how well the laptop prepares students for higher education or vocational training. He might easily be forgiven for thinking that Windows and Office are marketable skills.
While it is a perfectly laudable concept to provide the children of developing countries with inexpensive laptops, the idea that this will be the lever of improvement of their life and living conditions is not borne out by any of the already existing evidence.
Children of the developed nations already have laptops and a vast choice of free educational material and applications available to them. They do not make any use of this, preferring instead to fill the legion of social websites with mindless drivel on par with what another generation used to scribble on the covers of their school notebooks, their folders and when the opportunity was available the desks or the toilet walls.
They have mobile phones too - almost every single child in the United Kingdom owns a mobile phone. They again have such a low level of understanding of the phones that there a few capable of converting any audio file to a ringtone and are perfectly satisfied with the idea of buying one for 3 quid (plus subscriptions - service providers rates may vary.) The phones like the notebooks are mere communication devices, devoted to txt messages and filming gang beatings or bullying.
The romantic notion that a new wonder technology would provide unimpeded access to the world of education is not new, it was the crux of sales promotion for televisons in the late fifties and early sixties. All you need to do is read any tv schedule to see how this panned out or ask a school student when was the last time they watched Prime Ministers Questions or Cspan.
For those keen on the OLPC concept, well there are more than enough people committed to that cause here on slash dot for them to form themselves together and create a true open source concept that cannot be influence by anyone, governments, Negroponte or Bill Gates even.
However for anyone wishing to actually improve the life and the living conditions of the young people in question, my suggestion would what all the evidence demonstrates - raise their health standards - this brings with it economic growth and a stable society. Take the 100 bucks concept and instead of using it for OLPC, provide each of the children with $100 dollars worth of health care. You don't need to take my word for it either, a very short search on Google will provide all the necessary data. Then after this monumental milestone in human civilisation finally occurs, we could think about the computers, instead of what is happening just now, a futile discourse on the rights and wrongs of organisations we have no control over.
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I don 't recall anything called, System 2 having anything to do with CP/M.. What are you referring to?
First I didn't bother continue arguing with you, but I have to say that I feel a pity for you if you respect Gates more than Stallman. They have both changed the world, but Gates to the worse and Stallman to the better. The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation is of course something to respect. I take for granted that the foundation is serious and is unbiased towards what software is used in certain projects for instance.
Regarding the OLPC project. If the statutes for the OLPC foundation were well formulated and did not explicitly include free software and eduction in its goals, then we can't really blame them. On the other hand, if education based upon free software were the primary goals according the foundations' statutes then their board and manager need to be replaced. These were the goals of OLPC as I had understood them.
Consider that the statutes would contain one of the following alternative goals:
If I had one million USD which I would like to use for helping the children I would gladly fund a project like (3) but definitely not a loosely defined goal as (1) and for (2) I would be very hesitant.
It is very important for non profit organizations to stick to their statutes, as they are often based upon volutarily funding.
If I were a funder of the OLPC project and (3) were in the statutes and then they changed the goals to simply (1) then I would want my money back, then I would feel abused as a funder. You need to know what you put your money in.