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Microsoft Office 2007 to Support ODF - But Not OOXML

Andy Updegrove writes "About two hours ago, Microsoft announced that it will update Office 2007 to natively support ODF 1.1, but not to implement its own OOXML format. Not until Office 14 is released (no date given so far for that) will anyone be able to buy an OOXML ISO-compliant version. Why will Microsoft do this after so many years of refusal? Perhaps because the only way it can deliver a product to government customers that meets an ISO/IEC document format standard is by finally taking the plunge, and supporting 'that other format.' Still, many questions remain, such as when this upgrade will actually be released, how good a job it will do, and whether the API Microsoft has said it will make available to permit developers to supply 'save to ODF' default plugins will be supported by a patent non-assertion promise allowing implementations under the GPL (the upgrade supplied by Microsoft will not allow ODF as the default setting)."

377 comments

  1. Sinking Ship. by twitter · · Score: 0, Insightful

    They have yielded this little bit because they have to but it is too little too late.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Thanks, very insightful.

    2. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Say what you will, this is a good thing. It'll expand the reach of ODF, which is an excellent format.

      Whether or not MS will keep their mitts off it remains to be seen. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Suicidal, I know.

    3. Re:Sinking Ship. by willyhill · · Score: 0, Troll

      I'm not sure what you mean by "too little too late", considering Microsoft has been selling Office 2007 like pancakes since it was released.

      --
      The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
    4. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, what he said.

    5. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ME TOO!!

    6. Re:Sinking Ship. by JCSoRocks · · Score: 0, Troll

      Office 2007 has some really excellent improvements over previous versions of office. Not the least of which is the awesome Sharepoint integration. Previous upgrades have often left me saying, "yeah, ok, new office, flashy buttons, whatever." Once you get past the new UI though, this version really is a marked enhancement over previous iterations in many ways. The office team appears to be one of the few (only?) groups at Microsoft that's churning out a better product. ("only" gets a question mark because WHS should be awesome - alas, no 64bit connector makes me sad.)

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    7. Re:Sinking Ship. by plague3106 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Please don't feed the trolls.

    8. Re:Sinking Ship. by baggins2001 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They may be selling it like pancakes, but I have also seen an upsurge in dissatisfaction.
      1) Why do I have to learn a new interface?
      2) Why is user X not able to open my files. Why can't we open our shared files?
      3) Why is our file corrupted.
      This issue has become so great that department managers have been asking me if we can go to OpenOffice.
      Current plan is to minimize purchases of systems with Office 2007 and switch to OO next year, after the new version with file sharing comes out.

      --
      He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
    9. Re:Sinking Ship. by superslacker87 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      But they're hungry! And I have extra small children who are exceptionally ignorant and need to cross the bridge!

      --
      I run Ubuntu skinned to look like a Mac on a PC. Go figure.
    10. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Office 2007 has some really excellent improvements over previous versions of office. Not the least of which is the awesome Sharepoint integration.


      I agree! I can't count the number of times I've been writing a letter to family and needed the wife to put in a few words. With the new Sharepoint integration its been a snap for us to collaborate on docs together (like the grocery list). All it took was an extra server, and new licensing seats. ~
    11. Re:Sinking Ship. by plague3106 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Well, ok then. But not twitter. He's a jerk, even for a troll.

    12. Re:Sinking Ship. by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      The office team appears to be one of the few (only?) groups at Microsoft that's churning out a better product. The ribbon irks the everloving shit out of me, but I have to agree--the feature set has made a nice step forward. I have to point out, though, that more or less all of MS's development-tools division puts out awesome tools. Even IIS has gotten to the point of being a quality web server. (Yeah, I'm shocked too.)

      Also, who the hell would moderate the previous post "troll"? Did twitter get mod points on one of his accounts?
      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    13. Re:Sinking Ship. by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Their hardware is nice! except for the 360... looks okay though

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    14. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Your data point(s) must be really insignificant, considering how well O2K7 is selling (which was the OPs point). But you have the stomp my little foot, we're moving to [alternative FLOSS product] because [MS product] sucks magic phrase, so your opinion must be so much more interesting and deserving of moderation.

      Slashdot sucks more and more every day.

    15. Re:Sinking Ship. by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Personally I haven't used it, but since before it was released I've been impressive with and a fan of the new user interface since it's so much less cluttered.

      I know some openoffice/whatever fanatics says that's bad because now it doesn't look standard/like all other apps. No shit! But they shouldn't have designed their apps to look like Office in the first place. I can understand that they did it to make it easier and more likely for people to switch, but the design was and is very crappy so why copy something which sucks so hard? And that has been my point since way before Office 2007.

      iWork Pages (user interface) good. Microsoft Word pre 2007 bad.

    16. Re:Sinking Ship. by willyhill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) You can turn it off, you know.
      2) What files can Office 2007 not open?
      3) File corruption? Can you point me to some reference that backs that up? I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I haven't heard about it being any better or worse than 2003 in that regard, except that 2007 has better recovery options. In my experience, Word files sometimes get borked when edited over an extremely slow network connection or VPN link, but the few times that's happened to me I've been able to recover from it.

      This issue has become so great that department managers have been asking me if we can go to OpenOffice.

      Ah, so that's why your post is +4 and I was modded down "troll". I'll have to remember in the future not to try to disturb the reality distorsion field. Microsoft is selling billions worth of Office licenses? Nah, they're dying.

      --
      The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
    17. Re:Sinking Ship. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1
      I can't tell if this was sarcasm or not.

      I can't count the number of times I've been writing a letter to family and needed the wife to put in a few words. Just "a few words"... so she can't just come to that computer to type it up?

      All it took was an extra server, and new licensing seats. Compare that to, say, Google Docs, in which all it takes is an Internet connection. Or a Samba server and OpenOffice -- can't edit simultaneously, but if it's just between you and your wife, how hard is it to cooperate on that?

      I'll be recommending people upgrade to Office 2007, if and only if I can configure some reasonable support for ODF as the default file format. Otherwise, I'll recommend they upgrade to OpenOffice or some other alternative.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    18. Re:Sinking Ship. by fosterNutrition · · Score: 4, Informative

      You missed the ~ at the end of the sentence. In case you haven't seen the sigs and small discussions about it, the tilde (~) has been repurposed to indicate sarcasm.

    19. Re:Sinking Ship. by pjt33 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can't tell if this was sarcasm or not. In that case I'm surprised you've even heard of sarcasm.
    20. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I generally mod up his posts when they deserve it. If someone says something interesting, it doesn't really WHO said it. Its kind of shallow to ignore everything someone says just because you have a little grudge against them, no?

      Twitter might be immature (I didn't even know who he was until about a week ago, must be important), but the ACs who waste my screen space ranting about what a wanker he is are just as bad. Worse, actually, since Twitter is usually on topic, while his AC fans are just being wankers.

    21. Re:Sinking Ship. by pfleming · · Score: 3, Funny

      I can't tell if this was sarcasm or not. In that case I'm surprised you've even heard of sarcasm.~
      There. Fixed that for you.
    22. Re:Sinking Ship. by Randall311 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I have to strongly disagree with this. I have had the complete opposite experience with O2K7, it's been nothing short of outstanding. The ribbon interface was tough to get the hang of at first, but after a week of heavy use it's been a blessing, the user interface is far more intuitive than the cluttered drop down menus we grew up with. If someone was learning for the first time it would be a breeze, the reason it took me a week was I had to unlearn everything I've been used to.

      I've never once not been able to open my files with O2K7/8 or have had any problem sharing files.

      Not a single corrupted file in many hours of use. The recovery system works fine in the event of a power outage or reboot without saving. I don't know where you're getting your data, but given my experience I'd say one of us is in the minority here. Given some of the other responses to your post I'm thinking it's you.

    23. Re:Sinking Ship. by aliquis · · Score: 1

      1) Because the old one was crap?

    24. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      Office 2007 has some really excellent improvements over previous versions of office. Not the least of which is the awesome Sharepoint integration.

      Lovely work there, Evangelist 1142053.

      Keep up the good work and you'll be in line for an expenses-paid visit to Redmond and a free laptop.

    25. Re:Sinking Ship. by PenguSven · · Score: 2

      tell me please, exactly how does one turn off the ribbon in Office 2007? the ONLY way i've found to return to the STANDARD, USABLE menu system used by almost every other GUI application in existence is to buy an add-in for office.

      --
      What is...?
    26. Re:Sinking Ship. by I'm+Don+Giovanni · · Score: 1

      The "STANDARD USABLE menu system" is overwhemled by Office's features, so they dumped it rather than keep force-feeding things into that already overburdened old UI.

      Check out The Story of the Ribbon blog entry by Jensen Harris, which includes presentations in PowerPoint and PDF formats, as well as a 90-minute video on why and how the new UI came to be. It's fascinating, and the best UI presentation I've seen.

      If Office 2k7's UI had been produced by some OSS outfit, slashdotters would be praising it to the heights and mocking Microsoft for being stuck behind the times.

      --
      -- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
    27. Re:Sinking Ship. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that you didn't comment on the two sets of $500 programs, the $700 windows server license, and the $110 5 pack of seats (I can't find them any smaller) and all the hardware to support it just so he doesn't have to A:) talk to his wide on the phone while one of them types or B:) get off the computer long enough for her to walk over and type a few lines in.

      My guess is that your first impression of sarcasm is the correct one. They seem to be spending a lot of money to avoid each other yet care enough to include them on things like letters to the family and shopping lists.

    28. Re:Sinking Ship. by PenguSven · · Score: 1

      i couldn't give a flying fuck if it's oss, or toss. the ribbon is a pain in the ass. of course microsoft are going to say its a great change. i say bullshit.
      also, if it's so fucking great why is it only applied to half the fucking suite? and why is it applied to parts of some apps, but not other parts of the same app?

      --
      What is...?
    29. Re:Sinking Ship. by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

      i had fun recently at work. a customer had sent us a template in wordxml for a document they wanted to be automagically created. we looked at the template and it was horrible (images repeated in strange positions, random text formatting, tables looking weird, etc). we sent the template back with the request that the customer get his act together. the template came back with minimal changes, so we sent it back again. this went to and fro for about a month and the accompanying emails became quite heated until i suggested that we look at the template in office 2003 (my colleagues use office 2007, which doesn't run on gnusense, my distribution of choice) and lo and behold it looked perfect. we ate those words with mustard on them hot from the oven of shame set on gasmark egg-on-our-faces.

      of course, that put us in a spot of bother. i had already written the document generation classes in java, (which was a real pain btw, because wordxml is really bloated and illegible), and our boss had to call up the company and say "you know we said you should use word because it looks the same on every computer and everybody can read it? well...". the solution is still hanging in the air. total cost for the customer up to now must be about 30 000 euro.

    30. Re:Sinking Ship. by MadKeithV · · Score: 2, Informative

      "you know we said you should use word because it looks the same on every computer" If your company said that then whoever made that particular decision is a total moron. Even changing PRINTERS completely fubars the layout on MS Word. If layout was the customer's requirement then MS Word is just about the last choice on the planet.
    31. Re:Sinking Ship. by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1
      The wikipedia article on the sarcasm mark contains a bit more info:

      The Snark, a ligature of the full stop and tilde (~) was proposed to other type designers and typographers at http://www.typophile.com/ for signifying all sorts of irony, including verbal irony, such as sarcasm.

      Oh really.~
      --
      Not a sentence!
    32. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what's even more annoying? Your constant twitter-bashing.

    33. Re:Sinking Ship. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It also is part of why I tend to ignore stuff like this. That page has fifteen different marks which could be used to indicate sarcasm. It's a bit early to pick one.

      I'm usually competent at detecting sarcasm from context. The trick is to actually make it exaggerated enough that it can't be anything but sarcasm. This becomes a problem when a zealot might make the same statement seriously -- it is plausible that someone would have a spare Windows Server license to use for something like this, or that they would use their company's work servers to collaborate with their wife.

      Not smart, but plausible.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    34. Re:Sinking Ship. by aussie_a · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Dunno. How about I come over to your house and everytime you try to talk I'll interrupt with bile and shit. I'll continue this for 2 years, after which I'll say something insightful once every blue moon. See how predisposed you are to listening to me.

    35. Re:Sinking Ship. by c0ol · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's current policy on standards has totally changed, this is expected behavior in my opinion. We no longer live in the J++ and JScript days. Web is the future and the web is based on standards not just because of Firefox vs Internet Explorer vs Opera but because of mobile, desktop and embedded. Microsoft understands that to achieve market penetration they need to adopt and work with standards in their products. This behavior is also seen in products from Adobe and other large software vendors.

    36. Re:Sinking Ship. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Say what you will, this is a good thing. It'll expand the reach of ODF, which is an excellent format. No, ODF is a terrible format. Its one redeeming feature is that it sucks less than OXML. I suspect that Microsoft have worked out that they can fully support ODF quite easily and implement their own extensions for things (multiple numbered list styles, highlighting, annotations, and so on) that are not supported by ODF and force everyone else to go back to reverse engineering Microsoft formats.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    37. Re:Sinking Ship. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      If Office 2k7's UI had been produced by some OSS outfit, slashdotters would be praising it to the heights

      It was.

      The ribbon is a direct rip off of the Blender interface. It's not widely praised there either.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    38. Re:Sinking Ship. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Even if ODF sucks it makes the most sense to adopt it and just start working on rev 2... at least, as compared to adopting anything from Microsoft, which has been proven to be a seriously bad idea, time and time again.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    39. Re:Sinking Ship. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In case you haven't seen the sigs and small discussions about it, the tilde (~) has been repurposed to indicate sarcasm.

      In case you haven't seen my big hairy white ass, it doesn't care what the fuck you think the tilde means. In case you haven't been paying attention for the last twenty years, the ~ means approximately (or to some Unix wanks, the home directory) and assigning it yet another use is like boning a vacuous prostitute with no wrapper for your wing-wang: just fucking stupid on every level.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    40. Re:Sinking Ship. by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Wow, you really grasped this one.~

    41. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like your sig

    42. Re:Sinking Ship. by AngryDill · · Score: 1

      If Office 2k7's UI had been produced by some OSS outfit, slashdotters would be praising it to the heights and mocking Microsoft for being stuck behind the times.

      If Office 2k7's UI had been produced by some OSS outfit, all the Microsoft Genuine Believers(TM) would be criticizing it for being too radically different from MS-Office and way too difficult for their coworkers to learn how to use.

      -a.d.-
      --


      I'm Erwin Schrodinger and I approve of this message, and I do not approve of this message!
    43. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also is part of why I tend to ignore stuff like this. That page has fifteen different marks which could be used to indicate sarcasm. It's a bit early to pick one.

      I'm usually competent at detecting sarcasm from context. The trick is to actually make it exaggerated enough that it can't be anything but sarcasm. This becomes a problem when a zealot might make the same statement seriously -- it is plausible that someone would have a spare Windows Server license to use for something like this, or that they would use their company's work servers to collaborate with their wife.

      Not smart, but plausible. Im sorry, were you being sarcastic? ~-:P%^@//*

    44. Re:Sinking Ship. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      +1

    45. Re:Sinking Ship. by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      2) It's not what Office 2007 can't open. It's the fact that other people have to install a new plugin to read the .docx and .xlsx files it produces.

      Yes, you can change the defaults to save in the old format.

  2. Embrace and Extend by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Chances of it having several Microsoft-specific "add-ons" that are patent-encumbered and not supported by the actual ODF spec: Approaching 100%.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:Embrace and Extend by Sockatume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd say the odds of those "add-ons" being features from OOXML are pretty good, too. Gradually, they could turn ODF-via-Word into a format which is conveniently similar to the OOXML spec, except missing a couple of choice features or some compatability. OOXML starts to look just good, and why, there's even back-compatability built into OOXML! Why not switch?

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Embrace and Extend by albalbo · · Score: 1

      The ODF spec. specifically allows extensions. OOo automatically drops them, though.

      Interesting that they're not implementing the extremely-similar ISO-endorsed 1.0 version.

      --
      "Elmo knows where you live!" - The Simpsons
    3. Re:Embrace and Extend by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      i think this simply wont work for a few reasons
      *Whereas previously there could extend formats and know the extensions would be used in business, most ODF extensions are going to be unneeded.
      *Starting on a level playing field means that any ms extensions will be fairly easy to reverse engineer
      *We wont fall for it again, after being tricked into proprietary formats before.
      *Patents arnt worth shit in europe and this move is intended to sway European governments to office as it supports ODF

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    4. Re:Embrace and Extend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *We wont fall for it again, after being tricked into proprietary formats before.

      "We" don't have to fall for it. "We" are the small minority who know and understand the history. It's the "they" who are the problem. And oh yes, they will fall for it, again.

      Not everyone is strong in the force. Not everyone has a light saber that glows brightly. C3PO vs R2D2... R2 knows better, C3PO is an early adopter. Some people take starwars too far. Don't under estimate the power of the farce the ability to destroy a document is insignifi... ok I'll stop now.

    5. Re:Embrace and Extend by firefly4f4 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe -- but am not certain -- that the ODF spec specifies that the extension should not be "dropped", rather just ignored.

      In saving the document, though, a compliant application should preserve the ignored extensions though.

    6. Re:Embrace and Extend by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Chances of it having several Microsoft-specific "add-ons" that are patent-encumbered and not supported by the actual ODF spec: Approaching 100%. But if Microsoft did this, wouldn't they render moot the very openness compliance that their government customers are demanding?

      Hm ... maybe I have answered my own question.

      Look, I have to wonder if such a strategy wouldn't backfire on Microsoft in the long run. I would assume the customer base that wants this feature is aware of the tricks MS might try to play, otherwise why would they be dragging MS (kicking and screaming) towards open formats?

      And yet, this whole issue does seem to bear a similarity to the perfunctory implementation of support for POSIX standards in Windows NT many years ago. I'm not up on the details, but as I recall MS implemented it merely to appease government customers who wanted it as a condition of running NT in their environments. Could ODF support be the same? Not an attempt to E^3 (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) ODF, but just a temporary measure to maintain compliance with government mandates until their own OOXML monster is released on the world?
      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    7. Re:Embrace and Extend by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Great strategy, give away the control of the format (.doc to ODF) then try to take it back (ODF to ODF-extended). If anything, I think we're looking more at running ODF interference like they did with Java while pushing the .docx format.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Embrace and Extend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know that won't happen because Sun would sue them, just like they did when Microsoft tried to Embrace & Extend Java.

      Microsoft is taking an excellent step, as far as we know. Could we ask anything more of them at this stage? Not really.

    9. Re:Embrace and Extend by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I see much of a problem with this. If they make their ODF documents in such a manner that they are similar to OOXML, then basically they have show OpenOffice a great way of keeping compatible with OOXML with a minimum of fuss and effort!

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    10. Re:Embrace and Extend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would assume the customer base that wants this feature is aware of the tricks MS might try to play, otherwise why would they be dragging MS (kicking and screaming) towards open formats? Unfortunately, that probably isn't true. The people doing the dragging probably have no idea why they're doing it, apart from the fact that documents in a standards-compliant format would become unreadable once the program that defined the format is longer maintained. More than likely, these people were told this, and presented examples, but beyond that, they know little, if anything at all. They'll likely see Microsoft Office support a standardized file format, and think that's pretty much sufficient to qualify the product for use.

      The fact of the matter is, if the ODF documents MS Office saves are not ODF-compliant, we have make a lot of noise to that effect so that the people doing the dragging recognize this. I hate to say it, but it basically means high-visibility lawsuits (for false advertising or whatnot).
  3. ITSATRAP! by someone1234 · · Score: 1

    No need to look for further motivations...

    --
    Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
  4. Wow by Darundal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not even they are going to implement it until the next full office release. You have to admit, that says a lot about the standard.

    1. Re:Wow by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Man, if I was a MS shareholder, I'd be fucking livid. OOXML supporting software won't be available for a long time, and after this move, all the people who care enough about using ISO supported standards are going to be entrenched in ODF.

      Which means that all the administration costs, travel expenses, bribe money, etc that they spent to have the OOXML standard pushed through was just thrown away for nothing, even though they got what they were aiming for.

      Talk about mismanagement. Hey Ballmer, why don't you try hitting yourself with the chair this time. Might knock some sense into you.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:Wow by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I would expect most stock holders would go eh you win some you loose some. They are probably more worried about Vista bad press then this. In realality Microsoft didn't put that much into it. And if they did win they really wouldn't have gained much anyways.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Wow by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MS had to know that they weren't going to actually be able to support this standard for a long time (if ever). This isn't "you win some you lose some". They won in every objective they set. It was bad goals, not bad execution.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    4. Re:Wow by mrslacker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Talk about mismanagement. Hey Ballmer, why don't you try hitting yourself with the chair this time. Might knock some sense into you. Will this do?

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7412417.stm
    5. Re:Wow by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Talk about mismanagement. Hey Ballmer, why don't you try hitting yourself with the chair this time. Might knock some sense into you.

      No, Ballmer uses chairs to break Windows.

    6. Re:Wow by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

      Brilliant! Thanks for the post :) (you're already at 5)

    7. Re:Wow by nawcom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      heh. I dunno, that video is sort of disappointing. Only one guy openly throwing 3 eggs at a presentation? I was hoping for at least 3/4 of the audience to participate. One person throwing eggs = making himself look silly. Majority = making a point.

    8. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need to hit himself in the head, as the EU Commission seems to be providing
      that service to him already.

    9. Re:Wow by nine-times · · Score: 1

      If I were a MS shareholder, I'd be more upset for other reasons-- e.g. that their strategy doesn't seem to include making good products.

    10. Re:Wow by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "In realality Microsoft didn't put that much into it. And if they did win they really wouldn't have gained much anyways."

      In fact, they didn't put too much into that, they just created an EU investigation exclusively for that happening, and oppened guard for lots of other monopoly abuse and criminal (bribery) prosecutions. No too much indeed.

      In fact, they did have nothing to gain, but everything to lose.

    11. Re:Wow by Gauthic · · Score: 5, Funny

      That gentleman certainly had some balls, knowing full well that any retaliation fire would be in chairs, not eggs.

    12. Re:Wow by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      Is it just me, or did Ballmer sound like Putty from Seinfeld in that video?

    13. Re:Wow by Locutus · · Score: 1

      Man, if I was a MS shareholder, I'd be fucking livid. OOXML supporting software won't be available for a long time, and after this move, all the people who care enough about using ISO supported standards are going to be entrenched in ODF. MS shareholders know there will be something which will continue to tie the ODF produced documents to the MS Office application. Consider how they leveraged the open Kerberos spec and found nice ways to use the spec but tie it to Windows. Do you really think Microsoft is willing to level the playing field with one of it's only two monopoly positioned products?

      Trust me, they have something up their sleeves.

      LoB
      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    14. Re:Wow by pilybaby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it makes sense from an MS point of view to support ODF first over OOXML.

      They probably figure that few people are going to switch to another office suite due to the lack of support for OOXML, but that they might switch if ODF isn't there. So if they implement ODF then people will be happy either using existing Word formats or ODF and they can continue using MS Office. Then later on they can move people over to OOXML and not use the existing Word format as default.

      The interim period isn't going to hurt them that much anyway because not that many people will be able to use ODF on a wide scale because people wont have had the chance to change their office application to one that supports the new format. People will continue to use Word formats because that what their customers and partners can open.

      There is going to be a slow ramp up to any leveragable mass of users of a new format (and hence potentially new office application), but you might as well minimize your risk by implementing it at the same time, or before your competitors, so your users have less reason to switch.

      I think it only doesn't make sense for a marketing finger pointing POV, but I think it makes better business sense.

    15. Re:Wow by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      That the egg thrower was cheered on and allowed to leave peacefully of his own volition was pretty indicative of the majorities position and, ultimately even more humiliating for ballmer.

      It really does demonstrate how unpopular M$ has become and why they have so much trouble with gaining market share utside of their existing eroding monopolies.

      M$ was foolish enough to use it's management as part of it's marketing strategy, obviously more to do with the ego of it's management rather than being of any real benefit to M$ market share.

      Now M$'s management has to pay the price of that marketing concept, either they leave or the company continues to suffer a deteriorating public image and growing shareholder discontent. Let the speculation start on who M$ will bring in to replace ballmer & co , to reinvigorate the company and rebuild it's public image.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    16. Re:Wow by MickDownUnder · · Score: 1

      Wow how do we critize Microsoft about this.....

      They release a new document format, they go through a standardisation process, to make the format open, during this process they make changes to the new format to improve the standard.

      Then in the mean time they release support for ODF another open standard.

      Hmmmm... Well I guess we really have no way of critizing them about non-compliance with standards....hmmmm
      I know!!! We'll critize them for not putting their customers through the pain of pushing a new document format for office twice in the space of 2 years. We'll call that mis-management!!

      Microsoft will never get a positive article on slashdot, no matter what they do. I think it would be better for Slashdot as a reputable source of IT information to simply avoid publishing anything about Microsoft.

    17. Re:Wow by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Will this do?

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7412417.stm Actually, Ballmer talked his way out of embarrassment pretty well. I'd say that he handled the situation pretty well. He found cover (that is not cowardly, he did not know if the next egg would be a grenade), got up when the situation was under control, and make fun of the situation without attacking the attacker either with chairs or words. It raises my opinion of his personality, even if I do not like his business tactics.
      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    18. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why their share price is flat

  5. April Fools? by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Honestly, the first thing I thought when I saw this article was that it had to be some kind of April Fools article come late.

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
    1. Re:April Fools? by idonthack · · Score: 1

      Coincidentally, the approval of OOXML by ISO was reported on April First.

      Maybe they mixed them up at the secret government news factory.

      --
      Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
    2. Re:April Fools? by MickDownUnder · · Score: 1

      Your comment is so stupid. Ranting on about how Microsoft and ODF.

      http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/

      An ODF plug-in for Office 2007 was started before Office 2007 was even released !!!

      Look at the contributors... it was instigated by Microsoft, and developed by independent 3rd parties.

      It's all open source so you or anyone else can inspect the code and see for yourself.

      The ODF plugin for Office 2007 has been around for years whilst the whole ODF /OpenXml rant that has been going on slashdot.

      Whilst Microsoft has been attempting to make its formats open, and moving to incorporate open formats such as ODF into its products. The "Open Source" movement has been moving to suppress all these efforts, whilst making excuses which are more politically than technically motivated for not incorporating Microsoft's OpenXML format into the "Open"Office product.

      Jaw dropping ignorance and hypocrisy.

  6. Typical Tactic by snl2587 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So, in case anyone was still thinking that OOXML being confirmed as a standard wasn't a bad thing...

    And as far as supporting ODF goes, I'd applaud Microsoft for taking a step in the right direction if they weren't constantly declaring themselves the victors over Open Source. I only wonder how they'll spin this.

    1. Re:Typical Tactic by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      So I didn't RTFA, but what's with the not allowing ODF as default setting?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    2. Re:Typical Tactic by snl2587 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think they are begrudgingly supporting ODF since their customers are demanding it, but making the implementation just irritating enough (and, I would guess, incompatible with many features of Office) that users will be inclined to just work in docx (which OpenOffice and others cannot read perfectly, if at all).

    3. Re:Typical Tactic by mhall119 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It could also back-fire. If users are required by business requirements to exchange files as ODF, and MS Office makes this difficult while OO.o makes it default, it's more incentive to switch.

      Obviously Microsoft is counting on this to let them sell MS Office to governments as "ISO compatible" until they can properly implement the OOXML standard, while still trying to keep everyone using their proprietary formats. It's a risky gamble, and with Office 14 having no announced release date, not one I'd be comfortable making.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    4. Re:Typical Tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The announcement also says they'll release API's to make it simple to change to ODF as the default.

      There's a surprising lack of spin in the announcement. In fact it almost seems begrudging.

      OOXML won't be supported in MS Office till Office 14 and who knows when that will show up?

    5. Re:Typical Tactic by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Well I didn't RTFA either, but TF Summary says they didn't mention that.

    6. Re:Typical Tactic by leereyno · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft claiming to be the victors over Open Source makes about as much sense as claiming to be victorious over Extreme Programming.

      Open Source is not a product. It is not a company. It is not an individual. It is not a group. It is not an entity. Open Source is a development model.

      The only way that Microsoft could be "victorious" over Open Source is if they were to originate a superior development model that attracted more developers to it.

      Since that has not happened, I'm really not sure what sort of victory they are talking about.

      On the other hand, they could be trying to say that they are victorious over products developed using the open source model.

      But even this is a strange thing to be saying because the game never ends. They may be selling more of Microsoft product X than there are installations of Open Source product Y, but is that a permanent situation or a temporary one? If history tells us anything, it is the latter.

      The sad sick truth of the matter is that Microsoft's precarious position is due entirely to lack of competition, a situation that it worked very hard to create. If Microsoft were but one 800 pound gorilla among many 800 pound gorillas, then the product quality engendered through the process of competition would mean that Open Source products would have a very hard time of it.

      But because Microsoft has been so successful at defeating its competitors, it has nowhere to go but down. Growth of a company is dependent upon its markets. It can't grow bigger than the markets it serves. The bigger a percentage a company has of a particular market, the more difficult it becomes to grab more of that market. This is why Microsoft's strategy has always been to violate anti-trust regulations in order to conquer new markets.

      Unluckily for them, they can't do that anymore. Since they cannot expand, that leaves them in the precarious position of having to defend their position within the markets they have already conquered, and as anyone can tell you, you can't win a defensive war. The most you can hope for is that the enemy gets tired and goes home, and that doesn't happen in free markets. There is always another enemy coming right behind to take a shot at you.

      So not only are they not "victorious" over Open Source, they aren't even going to be able to maintain their current position. That isn't to say that the company is doomed, only that much like the British Empire, their glory days are at an end.

      --
      Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
    7. Re:Typical Tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell has this got to do with "Open Source"?

    8. Re:Typical Tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would Microsoft not support ODF? They needed OOXML for legacy documents (as they said all along) and now that they have it, they'll be happy to support ODF. They sell the application - they couldn't give a shit about the file formats.

      Face it - the anti-OOXML crowd has been out-thought and outflanked. Microsoft didn't ever not want ODF - the ODF crowd didn't want Microsoft. It's all been a stupid waste of time.

  7. Victory by tsa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can say all negative things you will about it, but this is a great victory for ODF.

    --

    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:Victory by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At least until we get into the extend and extinguish phases.

    2. Re:Victory by tsa · · Score: 1

      Doesn't every extension to an ISO standard have to be approved too?

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:Victory by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why would they need ISO approval to add their own extensions to their implementation of the standard? Is this some clause in the rules of the ISO that I've missed?

    4. Re:Victory by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that the "Save to ODF" option will prodouce horrendously mangled XML that will "poison" the format altogether.

      Of course, that could also be grounds for a lawsuit if they screw it up badly enough....

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    5. Re:Victory by pembo13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think so. I am not sure about this yet. Micrsoft, as a company, is very intelligent. They threw a lot of money at OOXML. I may not like their software offerings, but I fully admit Microsoft doesn't just waste money.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    6. Re:Victory by peragrin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well they won't be able to call it ODF, but unless someone complains MSFt will anyways.

      Sort of like how SCO still claims to own UNIX when the Open group owns the trademark, and Novell owns the copyrights.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    7. Re:Victory by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      If they did that, then it wouldn't be a standard again, would it?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    8. Re:Victory by perlchild · · Score: 1

      It's a victory for ODF, but not a great one. A great one would have been ODF being made the default. Or better yet, a cheaper version with no docx support.

    9. Re:Victory by prockcore · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nonsense, ODF has it written in the spec to allow proprietary extensions. MS can add whatever they want and still call it ODF.

    10. Re:Victory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like Sun did :)

    11. Re:Victory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm not thinking so.

      They have far too many customers demanding, not asking for, demanding, the use of an ISO standard for documents.

      These are governments, business with international operations and those with hetrogenus computing environments.

      Microsoft would only poison their relationships with these high paying customers if they did something like that.

      Playing the standards games is a double edged sword. MS is feeling the other edge because not even they can implement OOXML now or in the near future.

    12. Re:Victory by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      i don't think microsoft can risk it. picture what would happen, if they came out with a buggy and mangled implementation of odf. ibm, sun and goodle, not to mention the eu and the governments of so many other countries would rip them to shreds.

      i'm not denying implementing odf is a bad decision in the eyes of the share-holders. announcing support for odf is however something subtly different. maybe microsoft's scared of repercussions because of the corruption in the standardisation process for ooxml.

    13. Re:Victory by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      As long as the extensions you've added don't cause you to fail conformance testing your format is still ISO, or whatever governing body maintains the standard, compliant.

    14. Re:Victory by shentino · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, no matter what extensions they write, they must remain compatible with the base standard.

      If you break the standard in the process of adding an extension, then you are in violation of the standard.

    15. Re:Victory by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Informative

      Microsoft Bob.

    16. Re:Victory by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Why would they need ISO approval to add their own extensions to their implementation of the standard? Is this some clause in the rules of the ISO that I've missed? Microsoft's Active Directory implements Kerberos. The exact implementation is an exercise I'll leave to the reader. :)
    17. Re:Victory by c-reus · · Score: 1

      They could easily call the "extended" version of ODF ODFx or something similar. Problem solved.

    18. Re:Victory by toriver · · Score: 1

      Specs can move beyond the versions submitted to ISO - i.e. ODF 1.0 is the ISO standard, 1.1 is the OASIS version. Sort of like how Microsoft have no qualms about expanding C# beyond the ISO standard.

    19. Re:Victory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody tell me. What is the point of a standard if you can add whatever proprietary extensions to it?

    20. Re:Victory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, OOODF.

    21. Re:Victory by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if they came out with a buggy and mangled implementation of odf. ibm, sun and goodle, not to mention the eu and the governments of so many other countries would rip them to shreds.

      Like they did when Microsoft came up with a buggy and mangled implementation of HTML?

      Much as I wish you were right...

    22. Re:Victory by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has sought and achieved approval for all versions of C# they've produced. C# 3.0 is ISO 23270:2006, for instance.

    23. Re:Victory by holloway · · Score: 3, Informative
      The ODF spec says that,

      "An implementation shall be accompanied by a document that defines all implementation-defined and locale-specific characteristics and all extensions."
      (emphasis mine)

      So there's what you ask from MS Office.

    24. Re:Victory by andruk · · Score: 1

      I see your MS Bob and raise you an MS Vista.

    25. Re:Victory by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >The ODF spec says that,
      >
      >"An implementation shall be accompanied by a document that defines all implementation-defined and locale-specific
      >characteristics and all extensions."
      >
      >(emphasis mine)

      Could you direct me to were one can find that specific text in the spec? I tried to search for it but could not find it. I looked at the spec here:

      http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.1/OS/OpenDocument-v1.1-html/OpenDocument-v1.1.html

      Do I need to look elsewere to find it?

    26. Re:Victory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can break the standard without breaking the standard.

      Perfectly valid (according to whatever rules there are) and compatible extension will still make things a mess when they use it extensively, and other implementations don't support it. Documents look wrong, people blame other implementations without even bothering to know (or care) that it's a proprietary extension.

      It's a classic Microsoft tactic.

    27. Re:Victory by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      Buggy and mangled? Maybe, but they may be shooting for ODF plus Excel macros and the like. If they can crush OpenOffice acceptance before it gets off the ground with better features and the same format (on the surface), it'll render any OOXML repercussions moot. And to anyone crying antitrust foul, they'll say, "Hey, we made ODF better. Is it our fault they couldn't improve their own format?"

      Probably won't survive the EU courts, but given their current behavior, that's probably what we can expect.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    28. Re:Victory by shentino · · Score: 1

      In which case it's no longer a standard in the previous sense of the word.

      If you exert your monopoly muscles and shove a proprietary extension down everyone's throat, your extension becomes a defacto standard.

      Piggybacking a crapload of your own stuff onto a piddly flimsy skeleton that still follows the standard is indeed a major loophole. ...

      I think that standards should themselves be considered a work covered by copyright law, and then GPL'ed or BSD'ed or something. That way, by making any modifcations, you are creating a derived work...etc...etc...

    29. Re:Victory by catman · · Score: 1

      I'm making sure I am not wasting money on Mircosoft :-) Can't say the same about my employer, though.

    30. Re:Victory by stoobers · · Score: 1

      I don't think the demands of customers matter. What matters is how customers vote - with their dollars. And Microsoft gives businesses EXACTLY what they want - crappy software are low prices.

      Online surveys and customer wish/demand lists are meaningless - all people want is "cheap". The key to happiness is a short-term ROI.

      Microsoft's "successes" include control of:
      1. The desktop operating system
      2. much of the embedded/mobile operating system, including kiosks, such as at borders and DVDPlay devices
      3. MOST of the small-business file server market
      4. most of the small business development-tool market
      5. Pretty much the only option for Sarbanes-Oxly compliant email server (Exchange). This product alone GUARANTEES market domination for Microsoft. EVERY consulting firm I have spoken to requires experience w/ Microsoft Server 2003 and Exchange.

      The demand for Linux in the small-business is almost zilch - development costs are just too high. I develop for Linux exclusively and NOBODY in so-cal wants to dish out the green to get a customized, efficient and future-proof Linux solution when they can pay WAY less for a crappy, short-lived Microsoft solution. (And by less, I mean 10% of what it would cost me to custom code their solution. Even outsourcing to India wouldn't fix that margin!)

      Screw customer demands. Screw the European Union's laws. Screw anti-trust. At this point, MS doesn't even have to trap people. They are the only ones with an AFFORDABLE platform-level product that an executive can understand.

      This is seriously painful for me. I really love Linux and wouldn't want to do development for anything else. Yet, the small business market is what it is.

  8. Larger question by overshoot · · Score: 5, Insightful
    More to the point, how badly will they cripple the ODF support?
    • Will ODF spreadsheets be functionally equivalent to CSV?
    • Will ODF text be functionally equivalent to plain-text ASCII with line breaks?
    • WIll ODF presentations be JPEG renderings?
    • Will ODF import and export take hours?
    • etc.
    I've occasionally been accused of having an evil mind, but I'm sure that professionals given weeks or months can come up with better kneecapping plans than the above amateur hipshots.
    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Larger question by mysticgoat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think what matters most is that MS has committed itself to providing ODF compliance, even if that is a bit limited way, by the end of the first quarter of 2009.

      This means that businesses who have been delaying the normal computer upgrade cycle (sometimes for years) now have a clear pathway: they can immediately migrate to OpenOffice under existing WinXP licenses on new hardware, or they can jump directly to an enterprise Linux with OpenOffice. Either way, they can move forward knowing that before they have finished the rollout, the documents they are producing will be compliant with the Microsoft universe.

      The timing of this is great for the USA economy. It is much less costly to do a major rollout in a slack period, and we can count on slack for the rest of 2008. It will be easier to hire the needed tech support people, and if the rollout involves moving to Linux, it can be done with a lot less expense in hardware than the cost forecasts of even last year. The time and cost for retraining staff can be more easily absorbed during the competitive lull. Then when the economy gets back on track in 2009, these companies will be very well positioned for fast and strong growth.

      I applaud Microsoft for biting the bullet and coming out with this news now. Perhaps now USA IT departments can get out of these doldrum eddies and start making headway again.

    2. Re:Larger question by Nahor · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      • Will ODF spreadsheets be functionally equivalent to CSV?
      • Will ODF text be functionally equivalent to plain-text ASCII with line breaks?
      • WIll ODF presentations be JPEG renderings?
      • Will ODF import and export take hours?
      • etc.
      No:
      • Loading an ODF spreadsheet will crash Office.
      • Loading an ODF text will crash Office.
      • Loading an ODF presentation will crash Office.
      • Loading an ODF import and export will crash Office.
      • etc.
      That way, they can share the code between the different apps. That's also why they can release ODF before OOXML
    3. Re:Larger question by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      No, ODF will only be compatible with the latest msoffice, while a lot of msoffice users have much older versions...
      That said, it gives those users on older versions an easier path if they choose to migrate to openoffice instead.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:Larger question by Dan100 · · Score: 1

      Close, but not quite. Now it means that companies can indeed upgrade, and upgrade to the lastest Microsoft software with no fear of not being able to read ISO standard documents.

    5. Re:Larger question by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      I don't know that they will do all that, I'm going to be sending people ODF documents once this kicks in (cause its a pita to make stuff office compliant right now), and if every time someone gets a odf file it takes 10 minutes to load it makes office look bad to the users that don't understand formats, and Microsoft look bad to the ones that do

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    6. Re:Larger question by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      No, no, you've got it all backwards!

      Since all corporations and institutions that stay with Microsoft will become ODF compliant as they move to Office 2007, the smart upgrade path for companies that want to control their costs is to go with ODF compliant OpenOffice on either their existing platforms or on Linux. There is now no business reason not to do so.

      Those companies that had hitched their wagons to Microsoft's rising star, and now decide to stay the course, will continue to experience all the thrills of a ballistic rocket... including that sudden stop at the end of the trajectory.

    7. Re:Larger question by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      No, you are shooting wide of the target.

      A great number of companies have been considering moving away from Microsoft Office as well as avoiding the Vista experience. Now that a company knows that their vendors and customers who stay in the Microsoft herd will soon be able to use ODF removes a major disincentive. Companies are going to be looking at OpenOffice and Linux migrations more favorably because of this news. For this, and for other reasons.

    8. Re:Larger question by SumterLiving · · Score: 0

      In my business world, you send me a file that I cannot open or is a "pita", I move on. I lose your business and you lose my business. Good solution for making a point but in the business world, terrible decision matrix.

    9. Re:Larger question by FutureDomain · · Score: 1

      I've occasionally been accused of having an evil mind, but I'm sure that professionals given weeks or months can come up with better kneecapping plans than the above amateur hipshots. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
      --
      Hydraulic pizza oven!! Guided missile! Herring sandwich! Styrofoam! Jayne Mansfield! Aluminum siding! Borax!
    10. Re:Larger question by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      I might as well mention this here - Microsoft has already supported a ODF extension for Office 2007. Full import and export, and also a command-line batch converter. It's a SourceForge project with a very liberal license (search for odf-converter). Microsoft didn't develop it directly but sponsored (paid for) the development, and assisted with the OOXML side of things.

      Heavens people - this thing has been in existence since Office 2007 was still called Office 12 and in beta! Am I the ONLY one who has heard of it? Yes, native support will be nice - once upon a time it also had built-in PDF export but that was made an optional download after Adobe complained - but the capability is nothing new. It works, too; I use it for transferring files to Linux machines (or reading documents written on Linux) and it converts better than OO.o ever managed at reading MS Office formats.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  9. OOXML is not an ISO standard by lkcl · · Score: 5, Informative

    well - only if microsoft is able to buy their way through the standards process will anyone be able to buy an OOXML ISO-compliant version.

    UKUUG is currently waiting on the UK judicial system to decide whether to do a judicial review of the British Standards Institute's recent decision to ratify OOXML.

    clonking "comments" together in blocks of 100 for vote "yes no", towards the end of the (only) 5 day process, smells a bit fishy. especially as the comments weren't actually reviewed as having been actioned / corrected (in the 6,000 page document).

    the BSI came up with something ridiculous like 900 comments on the 6,000 page document.

    it's all incredibly fishy - long story. far too much to fit into one silly slashdot comment, so i'll stop.

    1. Re:OOXML is not an ISO standard by overshoot · · Score: 1

      UKUUG is currently waiting on the UK judicial system to decide whether to do a judicial review of the British Standards Institute's recent decision to ratify OOXML.
      Since the appeal deadline will have passed before the judicial review can even begin, it's all rather moot.
      --
      Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    2. Re:OOXML is not an ISO standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Correct.

      The appeal deadline is the 1st of June. SC34 were the ones who distribute the published text to national bodies... and SC34 were expecting ITTF to give them the published text on the 1st of May but the ITTF have refused and delayed this. ITTF are in Microsofts pocket and they're waiting until the appeals time period is over until they release the published text.

      The national bodies don't even get to look at the thing after the vote and during the appeals period.

      This thing is fucked.

  10. Results for eggs by pacroon · · Score: 5, Funny

    So I guess speaking Hungarian and throwing eggs at Steve Ballmer actually did pay off.

    --
    It's all fun & games until someone loses the game.
    1. Re:Results for eggs by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 4, Funny

      Throwing chairs might have yielded results faster.

    2. Re:Results for eggs by RealGrouchy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Choose your weapon wisely; it's hard to throw an egg back.

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    3. Re:Results for eggs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I disagree. If you throw chairs, they laugh at you on /., but if you throw eggs they honor your courage.

      Beside that, an egg is a far more precise instrument. It has better flying qualities and you can by them in small packages 6, 10, or 12 eggs at once for 1-5 EUR. In Hungary they might be even cheaper.

      So tell me were can I get 10 chairs for a total of 5 EUR and put them in a small bag.

      The last big advantage of eggs over chairs is the range. While normal humans throw a chair up to 3 meter. An egg, however, can easily be thrown 5 to 10 meter. Even a standard geek is able to throw it without insuring him- or herself.

      And the best of all is the look on the victims face after an egg impact.

    4. Re:Results for eggs by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      The last big advantage of eggs over chairs is the range. While normal humans throw a chair up to 3 meter. An egg, however, can easily be thrown 5 to 10 meter. Even a standard geek is able to throw it without insuring him- or herself. True but if ballmer casts the developers spell, chairs gain +10 range and do twice the damage, which is already more than a standard egg.
      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    5. Re:Results for eggs by clampolo · · Score: 1

      Hand it to Ballmer: the guy was quick on his feet and was smart enough to find some good cover. Plenty of CEO's would have gotten a heart attack just rounding the corner of that desk.

    6. Re:Results for eggs by toriver · · Score: 1

      No, Ballmer has great chair-fu from practicing whenever some talent at MS decides to jump ship.

    7. Re:Results for eggs by ignavus · · Score: 1

      No - it is hard to throw the *same* egg back.

      Obviously Ballmer forgot to bring his own supply.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    8. Re:Results for eggs by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think most people who have actually worked with Steve, no that it is a good idea to get the "ammunition" out of the room, not provide him with more.

  11. Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by r_jensen11 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A: No, because companies are already so deep with old .xls files and macros built for said files that they will still be unwilling to transition from Microsoft Office to StarOffice.

    That, and StarOffice just doesn't feel polished compared to MSOffice.

    I seriously think that the macros built around companies' documents & spreadsheets are what's keeping them locked in to MSOffice, not the file format, per se

    And for all you OO.o fans out there, don't even bother getting started; StarOffice is essentially OO.o, but with better support for MSOffice formatted documents, plus it has better tools like its thesaurus. OO.o may be nice for you, but there's a reason why Sun can sell StarOffice, and it's not because Sun's evil, and it's not *just* about tech support.

    1. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by mhall119 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      OO.o 3 will include support for VBA macros. That should help.

      Oh, and MS Office 2008 for Mac will not.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    2. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by AmaDaden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Very true but this is the foot in the door people have been waiting for. The problem I have always had was not opening up DOC docs but not being able to trust the ones I send from OO. Now that I know MS office can read ODF I can safely make and send them out with out worrying. Making ODF common is step one. Making DOC and XLS uncommon is step two. Making DOC and XLS so uncommon that people go through the hassle of converting them is step three.

    3. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 0

      Now that I know MS office can read ODF I can safely make and send them out with out worrying. So naive...
    4. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by RealGrouchy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Before this announcement: "MS Office 2003 is unable to read this file format (docx). Please upgrade to Office 2007."

      After this announcement: "MS Office 2003 is unable to read this file format (odt). Please upgrade to Office 2007."

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    5. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by Bryansix · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually Word 2003 can open docx already with the free compatibility pack. It just can't open dotx files which is pretty annoying.

    6. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by bjourne · · Score: 1

      A: No, because companies are already so deep with old .xls files and macros built for said files that they will still be unwilling to transition from Microsoft Office to StarOffice.

      That, and StarOffice just doesn't feel polished compared to MSOffice.

      Um.. is that an euphemism for "it totally sucks in comparison?" The reason why companies use MS Office is because it is a pretty damn good product and everything else falls short of it. For a real vendor lock-in, try FrameMaker 6.0. That's definitely not something you want to get stuck with.
    7. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because companies are already so deep with old .xls files and macros built for said files that they will still be unwilling to transition from Microsoft Office to StarOffice.

      Businesses who want to be ISO compliant won't be like this.

    8. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 1

      OO.o 3 will include support for VBA macros. That should help.

      Help whom? The malware writers?

    9. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by darkfire5252 · · Score: 1

      Making DOC and XLS so uncommon that people go through the hassle of converting them is step three. Here's a Bud-Light sponsored thought: how hard would it be to make an e-mail gateway for a business that automatically scanned outgoing e-mail attachments and converted OO documents to MSOffice format as well as converting incoming documents to OO format? Yes, it would hurt OO adoption in theory due to the recipient receiving Office documents, but it seems to me that it would be a huge benefit to offices trying to adopt OO...
    10. Re:Q: Will this signal the end of Excel dominance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who uses Firefox can open an ODF file now. No need to wait for MS. Just visit Firefox's web site and download the free ODF Reader plugin for Firefox. I've tested it thoroughly on text (.odt) and spreadsheet (.ods) files. It works perfectly!

  12. Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by darealpat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It may be that Microsoft is serious about supporting ODF, but I would not be surprised if it is somehow "crippled" or poorly implemented within the word processor and spreadsheet. Somehow I don't feel that you will be able to open an .odf made in Word with OpenOffice and there will be no "artifacts" or some loss of formatting, and vice versa of course. There are already issues with odf's opening across operating systems (usually a font issue causing discrepancy in formatting), and I am sure that Microsoft will use this opportunity to "make its case" for the "superiority" of its native format, whatever that format may be. If this will not be, it will be a most astute business move. Making their office suite cost less would be even better.

    --
    For every present, there is a past
    1. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by TheSpoom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, I think either Microsoft will embrace and extend as I mentioned above, or they'll bring up a huge warning box every time you try to save to an ODF claiming that "Not all features are supported!" and actually make the saving code substandard so people will think ODF is a bad format.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    2. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, I guess the answer to that is, if you want a format that maintains your formatting perfectly down to the pixel across all implementations of the standard, then you had better go with PDF (or TIFF). But if you want a format you can easily edit and pass between colleagues, without worrying too much about how the formatting is going to be a little off, then go with ODF, DOC, or some other word processing format. No word processing format looks the same across all platforms. Even something as simple as using a different printer can cause problems with the same version of MS Word opening it's own doc files. If formatting is so important that you can' have things be moved around a little bit, then use PDF.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, poorly implemented software is the whole M$ Office Suite. And artifacts and corrupted layout is a classical problem for all Word users. So that will surprise nobody.

    4. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      No word processing format looks the same across all platforms. Even something as simple as using a different printer can cause problems with the same version of MS Word opening it's own doc files.

      That's called a bug. Word processing files should look exactly the same across platforms and versions, with exceptions given for missing fonts or other referenced data. It should absolutely not change when you switch printers and as far as I know MS Word is the only program to have that problem.

      PDF is for files you want to distribute and don't want to be easily editable. ODF is for files you want others to edit as well. DOC is deprecated and is for dealing with legacy versions of Word when you have to.

    5. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 0

      Somehow I don't feel that you will be able to open an .odf made in Word with OpenOffice and there will be no "artifacts" or some loss of formatting, and vice versa of course. Seeing as it is an XML file, it should be vastly simpler to reverse-engineer than the binary .doc
    6. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by grm_wnr · · Score: 1

      a huge warning box [...] claiming that "Not all features are supported!" Doesn't OO.o do (or used to do) thos for .doc? I don't actually know, I use ODF for storage and PDF for sharing like a sane person.
    7. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 0

      It says that your file may contain formatting that cannot be saved to .doc (right above a little "do not show me this warning again" checkbox)

    8. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by bjourne · · Score: 1

      There are already issues with odf's opening across operating systems (usually a font issue causing discrepancy in formatting), and I am sure that Microsoft will use this opportunity to "make its case" for the "superiority" of its native format, whatever that format may be. FYI, the font issue is wholly OpenOffice's fault. Word saves the font inside the .doc file exactly just to prevent "font issues" like these. OpenOffice opens the file just fine, but when you save it, it notices that whatever font was embedded in the .doc file is not found on your system, so it switches to similar font instead.
    9. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So... Microsoft aids and abets copyright infringement? You may not have the right to redistribute all the fonts on your computer.

      Welcome to the brave new world. OpenOffice.org is the one that's working "correctly" and preserving people's copyright.

    10. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fonts have use-right flags which explicitly allow this.

    11. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Rufty · · Score: 1

      LaTeX ???

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
    12. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Some fonts do, some don't... does msoffice obey these flags or does it embed fonts anyway?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    13. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's what you put on your dick to make sure you don't make babies or get weird diseases.

    14. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pls fix your rancid b.o.

    15. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      That's called a bug. Word processing files should look exactly the same across platforms and versions, with exceptions given for missing fonts or other referenced data. It should absolutely not change when you switch printers and as far as I know MS Word is the only program to have that problem.

      Quite the opposite. Word processors should most definitely change the display to match new output devices like a printer. Just like browsers should change the display of a web page to match *your* screen, not the screen of some web designer somewhere.

      You seem to be missing that it's What You See Is What You Get, not What You See Is What They Get.

      If you want a document to look the same regardless of where it is viewed, use something like a PDF. If you want it to be editable, use some form of page layout software.

    16. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      There's an open-source plugin for Office 2007 ODF support already (search SourceForge for "odf converter"). It was sponsored by Microsoft and has been around since "Office 12" (as it was then called) was in beta. A fairly major update was released with the Office service pack. I've been using this plugin for well over a year now, and I can't say I've ever seen a glitch or "artifact" on either importing a file written in OO.o or KOffice, or on opening in one of those a document written in MS Office. It's certainly a LOT better than OO.o's handling of .DOC files.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    17. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite. Word processors should most definitely change the display to match new output devices like a printer.

      Why? Why would I want a word processing document printed at home to be laid out slightly differently when I print it at work? How is that an advantage instead of a huge pain in my ass?

      Just like browsers should change the display of a web page to match *your* screen, not the screen of some web designer somewhere.

      Markup is a fine idea and works well for the Web. Word processing is not the Web. Word processing fits content to a page, a paper page for printing. It is nice to be able to customize how you view a simulation of that page on your screen, but there is no advantage to it printing differently on different computers and printers.

      If you want a document to look the same regardless of where it is viewed, use something like a PDF.

      PDF is not appropriate for all uses. For example, when I check a document into SVN and I want multiple people to collaborate on it, all making edits. Why the hell is it useful for one person to tweak the fonts to get them to fit properly on their printer, only to have the other people change them back to work on a different printer? That is a stupid annoyance, not a benefit. You haven't presented a single use case where this is an advantage.

    18. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Why? Why would I want a word processing document printed at home to be laid out slightly differently when I print it at work? How is that an advantage instead of a huge pain in my ass?

      Because your setup at home is probably different from your setup at work. Different printers, different margins, different fonts, etc. Depending on the situation, your home printer may well be physically incapable of producing identical output to your work printer (different hardware margins, for example).

      Word processing fits content to a page, a paper page for printing.

      Exactly. Which is why the layout of that content is going to change depending on what the printer is capable of outputting.

      PDF is not appropriate for all uses.

      It is, however, appropriate for the case I gave as an example.

      For example, when I check a document into SVN and I want multiple people to collaborate on it, all making edits. Why the hell is it useful for one person to tweak the fonts to get them to fit properly on their printer, only to have the other people change them back to work on a different printer?

      Because person 2's printer might not be setup the same as person 1's printer.

      (To say nothing of why that sort of collaboration requires the document look the same when printed during that phase.)

      That is a stupid annoyance, not a benefit. You haven't presented a single use case where this is an advantage.

      Yes, I have:
      1. So what you see on screen is an accurate representation what comes out of your printer.
      2. So that when someone opens the document on a machine with different printing capabilities, what they see on their screen is also what will come out of their printer.

      Or, more succinctly, the whole point of having a WYSIWYG word processor in the first place. You are complaining because a program whose primary purpose is to make what you see on screen look the same as what will come out of the printer is doing exactly that.

    19. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Why? Why would I want a word processing document printed at home to be laid out slightly differently when I print it at work? How is that an advantage instead of a huge pain in my ass?

      Because your setup at home is probably different from your setup at work. Different printers, different margins, different fonts, etc. Depending on the situation, your home printer may well be physically incapable of producing identical output to your work printer (different hardware margins, for example).

      You're making assumptions. Usually they can both print identically and when they can't that can be handled when printing. I suppose you think word processing documents should switch to black and white when your default printer only does black and white too?

      Exactly. Which is why the layout of that content is going to change depending on what the printer is capable of outputting.

      Except in the past it has changed regardless of what the printer can output, because MS Word defaulted to using versions of the fonts the printer has installed, even when all fonts are present on both computers. In this day and age of network printers and laptops, it seems absurd to try to "pre-resolve" printing issues when the word processor does not even know which printer you will end up using. If you printer can't handle outputting a document exactly, let it tell you when you try to print and until then, don't worry about it.

      PDF is not appropriate for all uses.

      It is, however, appropriate for the case I gave as an example.

      What? You wrote "If you want a document to look the same regardless of where it is viewed, use something like a PDF." How is that not the use case I was just saying it is not appropriate for? I want a document to look the same to everyone and be editable by them. PDF doesn't work, for that I need A WORD PROCESSING FORMAT!!!! It's not like this is an unusual use case, it happens at work all the time.

      For example, when I check a document into SVN and I want multiple people to collaborate on it, all making edits. Why the hell is it useful for one person to tweak the fonts to get them to fit properly on their printer, only to have the other people change them back to work on a different printer?

      Because person 2's printer might not be setup the same as person 1's printer.

      Who cares if we're not printing it? Not all word processing docs are ever printed, in fact a good portion aren't. I don't give a rat's ass if the people I'm collaborating with even have printers, I just want us to all be able to see and edit the same document we're working on. PDF is not appropriate. A word processing document from anything other than Word, is.

      1. So what you see on screen is an accurate representation what comes out of your printer.

      Which is shown as a print preview when you actually go to print and select a printer. Previous to that, your word processor doesn't actually know if you'll be printing on your home printer, the big laserjet at work, or the smaller color printer at work. For that matter, it doesn't know if you're going to take it to Kinkos. Changing the way it looks without that knowledge is just annoying.

      2. So that when someone opens the document on a machine with different printing capabilities, what they see on their screen is also what will come out of their printer.

      Except they don't because the word processor cannot accurately assess their printing capabilities, especially when there are multiple printers available.

      Or, more succinctly, the whole point of having a WYSIWYG word processor in the first place. You are complaining because a program whose primary purpose is to make what you see on screen look the same as what will come out of the printer is doing exactly that.

      No, I'm complaining because a certain

    20. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by bjourne · · Score: 1

      So... Microsoft aids and abets copyright infringement? You may not have the right to redistribute all the fonts on your computer. Welcome to the brave new world. OpenOffice.org is the one that's working "correctly" and preserving people's copyright. Uhm.. Redictio in lawsuitum: IF that practice was in any way illegal MS would have been sued for BILLIONS. They haven't, which means your argument is bull.
    21. Re:Not embrace and extend, but embrace and squeeze by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      What You See Is What You Get, not What You See Is What They Get.

      That's the best explanation of word processing software behaviour, I've ever heard!

  13. After so many years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Err what? You mean the format they added support for in December 2006? The open source plugin they sponsored, paid for and chucked developers at it? That format?

    1. Re:After so many years? by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      You mean the same one that's still basically a test version and was never made available commercially? That plugin?

    2. Re:After so many years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Commercially? You're complaining they made an open source plugin and didn't sell it? REALLY?

    3. Re:After so many years? by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      A lot companies have a policy where the won't trust something unless it can be bought from a verifiable source. So yes, the fact that it hasn't been made commercially available has probably hurt it's adoption quite a bit due to such reasons. That and the fact that it's basically a test version even at this point in the game.

  14. MS BJ's by JeremyGNJ · · Score: 5, Funny

    Jeeeze you people are harsh!

    I think that Microsoft could announce tomorrow that they are giving out free blow jobs to anyone who uses Linux. As soon as the first blowjob was given out, someone would find something negative about it.

    1. Re:MS BJ's by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 4, Funny

      But what if the hooker they hired kept biting your dick? That's not very pleasant...

    2. Re:MS BJ's by PawNtheSandman · · Score: 1

      And gave you SuperAIDS!

    3. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that Microsoft could announce tomorrow that they are giving out free blow jobs to anyone who uses Linux. As soon as the first blowjob was given out, someone would find something negative about it.

      Since it's MS we'd probably be rightly concerned about getting a virus, or some other parasite, or of them biting down and demanding to be paid to let go.

    4. Re:MS BJ's by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      And you know MS would hire hookers with syphilis. I think some people really underestimate Microsoft. They, like most other companies, are in it for the money.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    5. Re:MS BJ's by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 5, Funny

      or of them biting down and demanding to be paid to let go. That's one way to achieve vendor lock-in.
    6. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Afterwards? Heck I'd see that it was Balmer giving 'em out and turn right around.

    7. Re:MS BJ's by kiehlster · · Score: 2, Funny

      Naw, they'd give out CCTVs, Cross-Compatibly Transmitted Viruses.

    8. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nah, I share with samba

    9. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if anyone would take Balmer up on his offer to give you a free blow job. That'd probably be the most given complaint.

    10. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude. Dude! You're a GUY! Ah ah! Aaaaaaaahh! Get off! NO, NOT LIKE THAT!

    11. Re:MS BJ's by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Funny

      "I think that Microsoft could announce tomorrow that they are giving out free blow jobs to anyone who uses Linux. As soon as the first blowjob was given out, someone would find something negative about it."
      What are the chances that you would remain virus free if you accepted free blowjobs from Microsoft? ...

      (Just because one is paranoid, doesn't mean M$ isn't out to get you)
      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    12. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, sorry, I'm not going to follow up on your obvious lead-in to a "virus" joke.

    13. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Looking down and seeing the new face of Microsoft would be highly negative. Although Steve Ballmer would have a fitting name.

    14. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux: $50
      Gentleman's Linux: $500

    15. Re:MS BJ's by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Patty the Daytime Hooker? Yeah, we'd complain.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    16. Re:MS BJ's by bjourne · · Score: 1

      But what if the hooker they hired kept biting your dick? That's not very pleasant... Embrace, extend, extinguish!
    17. Re:MS BJ's by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Funny

      "I think that Microsoft could announce tomorrow that they are giving out free blow jobs to anyone who uses Linux. As soon as the first blowjob was given out, someone would find something negative about it."

      I know people here sometimes say that Ballmer can suck their dicks, but they don't mean it literally. If you noticed him unzipping your pants and puckering up, wouldn't you have a few terrified comments too?

    18. Re:MS BJ's by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      extend Not if she's biting your dick off.
    19. Re:MS BJ's by Tangamandapiano · · Score: 1

      Ugh... just imagine who could do the blowjobs...

    20. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1st negative: Ballmer has no hair to grab.

    21. Re:MS BJ's by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      Well yeah, I don't want a blowjob from some toothless redmonmd crackhead....

    22. Re:MS BJ's by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Or if it isn't a she!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    23. Re:MS BJ's by raddan · · Score: 1

      Ah, the old embrace-erection-extinguish play, for use when Microsoft is done fucking around.

    24. Re:MS BJ's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      We would complain that:
      • the girl was too young
      • the girl was too old
      • the girl was fake (ie. a guy)
      • the girls hair got the wrong colour
      • she swallowed
      • she didn't swallow
      • the girl didn't enjoy the BJ
      • the girl did enjoy the BJ
      • the girl couldn't give me a BJ 'cause I'm a woman
      • the girl wouldn't give me a BJ 'cause I'm a woman (that's completely different from previous point)
      • the girl was naked
      • the girl wasn't naked
      • the girl got too small breasts
      • the girl got too large breasts
      ...do I need to continue ?
    25. Re:MS BJ's by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Clippy: "I see you are getting a blowjob. Would you like help:
      Getting a drink.
      Slap the bitz
      Hitting the eye.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    26. Re:MS BJ's by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not, but it would quickly become the new standard.

    27. Re:MS BJ's by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      But what if the person getting the BJ is gay you insensitive clod!

    28. Re:MS BJ's by syousef · · Score: 1

      But what if the hooker they hired kept biting your dick? That's not very pleasant...

      Let's get the analogy right. The hooker they would hire would be a high price call girl with 7 STDs, 6 of which are orally transmissible and 2 of which are eventually fatal.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    29. Re:MS BJ's by questro · · Score: 1

      But it's never been about the free MS BJ's, I think several of those were given out at various ISO meetings. It's the EULA that comes with the MS BJ that I have problem with. Who wants restrictions on or to pay a license fee for each orgasm! I personally would rather get and OpenBJ or the GNU/BJ which protects my freedoms!

  15. Embrace (where we are now)
    Extend (aka 'break')
    Extinguish (where we'll end up)

    Nuff said

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    1. Re:eee by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      In all fairness, MS tried their EEE development model with HTML, and look where it landed them. Firefox is making big inroads into their browser market, and MS is being forced to make their browser more standards compliant. Granted, just about everybody else was also trying to extend HTML also, but it seems like MS was the last major browser to come around in adhering to standards. They also tried it with Java, and now they can no longer make a Java VM.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:eee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like how it happened with Java? Last I heard Sun is winning that battle.

    3. Re:eee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually their EEE with HTML worked great! Customers are so locked into IE6 they can't upgrade to IE7 without doing a complete standards-based rewrite.

    4. Re:eee by prockcore · · Score: 2, Informative

      The web is a bad example.. mainly because it's a mess. The standards are convoluted and poorly documented. There is no reference implementation.

      and all of our advancements were the result of 3rd party extensions of the standard.

      AJAX was invented by MS, not by a standards body. The canvas tag was invented by Apple. Both are widely supported standards now that have a marked improvement over what the w3c is pushing.

    5. Re:eee by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome MS to Eee my PC, it's always felt way too big and clunky.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  16. Correction on "save to" capability by Andy+Updegrove · · Score: 4, Informative
    Kevin J. O'Brien, reporting in the International Herald Tribune, reports that the ODF update will in fact permit users to "adjust Office 2007 settings to automatically save documents in the rival format." A knowledgeable source tells me that this report is likely to be accurate.

    Andy

  17. Sun's ODF Plugin for Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if they licensed the source for Sun's ODF plugin for word? That might explain why it's happening before OOXML.

    1. Re:Sun's ODF Plugin for Word by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1
      RTFA

      What will the source of the function be? There are two obvious sources. One would be the CleverAge open source project conversion code generated by the long-running project at Source Forge funded by Microsoft. The other would be internal development. While either is possible, in comparing notes with others there are indications that development work may have been ongoing for some time to enable this function.
      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    2. Re:Sun's ODF Plugin for Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The third obvious source would be Sun, but we won't mention that because they're the ones who brought Microsoft before the courts, getting them convicted of having an illegal monopoly in America (of all places). How could we possibly think that they might have done a deal with them?

  18. They walk on ice. by kiehlster · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is happening because the negative attention they've gotten recently. Office 2007 has gotten a bad review thanks to a over-thought user interface, so they hired an Adobe UI guru to correct that. OOXML hasn't gotten any acceptance from the community so introducing it now will just further the negativity. I'm sure this move toward ODF is to bring more approval as they scrap Office 2007 and bring something better in version 14. By then they'll try to put some positive spin on OOXML as they release a better interface and incorporate OOXML.

    1. Re:They walk on ice. by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Retail sales of Office products from January through June [2007] were roughly double those of Office 2003 during its first six months on the market and up 59.6 percent from Office sales for the first six months of [2006]" - Source

      Not exactly the failure you describe.

    2. Re:They walk on ice. by pembo13 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Success for them for sure. Say's nothing about the success/failure for the people actually buying it.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    3. Re:They walk on ice. by kiehlster · · Score: 1

      Sales were great, yes. That's mostly driven by visible evidence that the software has been improved with their radical ribbon layout. I'm sure 2003 failed because it offered nothing of value over its predecessors.

      That doesn't go to say that people didn't complain about it. The new ribbon (which IS an improvement) meant a learning curve, the new 2007 xml file format was incompatible with everything until they made a patch for other versions, then it horribly failed the OOXML test, and lastly the UK cried interoperability which is nothing less than antitrust talk.

      Sales may put investors at ease, but there are enough complaints going around now to make 2007 look like a plain wreck.

    4. Re:They walk on ice. by raddan · · Score: 1

      That's because nobody bought Office 2003. We were all too busy rolling out Office 2002.

      As a side note, we still don't use 2003 or 2007 (still on 2002, thanks), but if we want new copies, our Microsoft rep cheerfully tells us that if we buy 2007 licenses, they are backward-compatible to allow us to use 2002 instead. They do this with pretty much all of their software, so take their sales figures with a grain of salt.

    5. Re:They walk on ice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, you stated that more people are buying computers and getting office on them than ever
      the computer is becoming more popular all over the world, and not everyone can afford office

    6. Re:They walk on ice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, small problem. Office 2003 came out after Office XP. Know what Office XP is also known as? Office 2002. That's right. Microsoft released a full new version of Office one year after a prior release. So of course 2003 had incredibly poor sales in its first 6 months. You can't gouge customers quite that much.

      So, it is not surprising that Office 2007 is selling better. It is being compared to something that by design (releasing it one year after the prior office version) would never be expected to sell well in its first 6 months.

    7. Re:They walk on ice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That Adobe guy you mentioned? From TFA, he's going to Windows, not Office.

    8. Re:They walk on ice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because people are still buying it (and the amount of computer users is increasing at an alarming rate, so there is massive inflation anyway) does not mean people are as satisfied. Office is one of those things that is going to get purchased no matter what. Same with Vista. It doesn't matter if the whole world is complaining, they all have already bought it. And Microsoft's lock in and marketting capabilities will continue to sell their product.

      What will be much more telling, is how well the NEXT version of office sells, after this one. My guess is, by that time most people will have forgotten about the problems with this one or gotten used to the interface etc, that they will still buy it in record numbers. And then complain at the next screw-up Microsoft makes.

      As hard as Microsoft is trying, I don't think they can do much to hurt themselves or get people to stop buying their products.

  19. An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by gnutoo · · Score: 0, Troll

    They have admitted they need ODF and that will kill OOXML, Office and them. That's because everyone knows OOXML is not ready and will never be good enough. The usual trick of making ODF difficult will not work because people can simply download Open Office. People might do that anyway because Office is not worth the money [look a twitter reference]. If they don't really become an honest company, and they won't, things will get worse. Despite drastic measures they already have a hard time moving their new software. When they lose the document franchise, they lose the OS monopoly. The curtian is falling fast on their heads.

    1. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by fortyonejb · · Score: 0

      Doom and gloom prediction #4433485455 logged. Do not worry, when the prediction finally comes true you will be given the correct percentage of credit for your prophecy. Unfortunately you did not reference "the year of the linux desktop" so percentage points may be lost and your resulting credit may be lower than expected.

    2. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by clampolo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm more scared of them supporting ODF than I am of OOXML. How do we know they aren't going to try to do what they successfully did to Netscape. They could easily add a bunch of their own stuff into ODF so that nothing but Office would be able to read the ODF files Office puts out.

      If however they are really trying to comply with ODF then hats off to MS for being serious about embracing standards.

    3. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by NoobixCube · · Score: 1

      The only way Microsoft ever try to embrace anything is like a python. A python's embrace is never comfortable, especially after all of your bones go 'crunch'. That was my thought too. I'm sure they'll make a lot of proprietary ODF extensions, if the license allows for that.

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
    4. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm glad to hear Microsoft's embracing Python.

    5. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like Java?

      1. Extend it
      2. Get developers, developers, developers to use the extensions
      3. ???
      4. Monkey dance
      5. ???
      6. Drop it altogether creating mass confusion by end users as to why nothing works anymore
      7. ???
      8. Dodge flying Chair
      10. ???
      11. Profit!!!

    6. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How do we know they aren't going to try to do what they successfully did to Netscape. Oh please, let them try. Have you forgotten that Mozilla rose from the ashes of Netscape, and Firefox from the ashes of Mozilla?

      If however they are really trying to comply with ODF then hats off to MS for being serious about embracing standards. It might be the first time they've done this in good faith...

      But then, look at IE. It took some serious competition, in the form of Firefox, but IE finally did shape up and start adding features (tabs) and reasonable standards compliance.

      All we really need, then, is an ACID test for ODF, in which we can show that OpenOffice, KOffice, Google Docs, and even isolated projects like AbiWord and Gnumeric do better than Office, thus shaming Microsoft into doing it right. That assumes they don't get it right the first time, although that does seem unlikely.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    7. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by benplaut · · Score: 1

      What was that old saying, again? "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish?"

    8. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by holloway · · Score: 5, Informative

      All we really need, then, is an ACID test for ODF, in which we can show that OpenOffice, KOffice, Google Docs, and even isolated projects like AbiWord and Gnumeric do better than Office, thus shaming Microsoft into doing it right. That assumes they don't get it right the first time, although that does seem unlikely.
      This is what Rob Weir has proposed (he's an ODF chair).
    9. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that Office Suites are now dead. None of them can evolve beyond the features provided by ODF, because if they do, they're trying to destroy the standard.

      Or maybe you mean they shouldn't be allowed to release any upgrades until after their proposed upgrades have been ISO approved through a 3 year standardization process?

      Of course even OpenOffice adds their own extensions to ODF so, this is really just pointless banter.

    10. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by mektronik · · Score: 0

      I don't think the implication is that a company cannot make their ODF 'browser' (read office app) particular. In fact what we want is competition among the ODF browser/editor vendors. What we don't want is one vendor crippling the market for all the others due to non-compliant features - such that an ODF document can no longer be edited by a different ODF browser/editor - brought in over time and on the back of a monopoly position. Hope that clears things up :)

    11. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But idiots like you think ODF is a god format?

      It specifically allows someone like Microsoft to rape it - BECAUSE IT LACKS SO MANY STANDARD FORMAT implementations...

      Microsoft will turn ODF into a virtual equivalent of OOXML (think ODF/MS) if it is the standard. Ink content ODF/MS format, Voice tagging OSF/MS format, etc etc etc...

      So again to read any non ODF written standard, MS will write it and you will still be using MS specifications in the long run.

      And no one else here thought of this before?

    12. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by unikuser · · Score: 1
      Will you pay $500 for a browser and browse foo-bar site just because they added ground-breaking, revolutionary, proprietary extension to html standard? If development has to happen, it has to happen through standard. Yes, it is slow. But, that gives you flexibility to see that html(odf here) anywhere(linux,win95,iphone,any phone,handheld...) consistently.

      If evolution has to happen, it has to happen in office suite, not in a way to cripple odf compatablity, inter-operability. If something is missing in odf, it can be added to the standard.

    13. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by setagllib · · Score: 1

      Microsoft Office could pass a standard ODF-ACID test but still allow extensions. These won't be part of the standard, but if the document itself still qualifies for the standard, it will only work in Office anyway. Microsoft has entire divisions dedicated to this kind of evil.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    14. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      How do we know they aren't going to try to do what they successfully did to Netscape.

      Bundling IE with Windows isn't what killed Netscape. Netscape killed Netscape.

      Navigator 4.x was a bloated, buggy, crash-prone piece of shit. It would choke and die on even moderately complex tabular layouts, and resizing the window caused it to re-request the page it was displaying. IE 4 was a match for it and IE 5 quite simply wiped the floor with it - and I say that as someone who stuck with it right up until about M12 or M13 of Mozilla, and who has never and likely will never use IE as his primary browser.

      Microsoft bundling IE with Windows didn't help, and perhaps that paniced Netscape into making some truly awful decisions (like throwing away their existing codebase and starting again from scratch for Netscape 5), but it most certainly did not kill Netscape.

    15. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by c0ol · · Score: 1

      This is not a troll... The problem with your assertion is that you believe Open Office to be a competing product to Microsoft Office; it isn't. This is not the same as Firefox vs IE6, Firefox was a way better product and the market saw this and switched. This will not happen here because even without the oft touted file format lock in, Office is still a solid choice in my opinion.

    16. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by c0ol · · Score: 1

      IronPython

    17. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      I don't think the implication is that a company cannot make their ODF 'browser' (read office app) particular. In fact what we want is competition among the ODF browser/editor vendors. What we don't want is one vendor crippling the market for all the others due to non-compliant features - such that an ODF document can no longer be edited by a different ODF browser/editor - brought in over time and on the back of a monopoly position.

      Hope that clears things up :) Truth is, documents created in Kword look terrible in OOo Writer and vice versa. Although I prefer Kword I use OOo to be compatible with Windows folks who at least have OOo. Neither seems to support (write? read?) proper odf documents.

      I'd like to see an odf file validator script. Because the office suits that supposedly support it are not compliant with each other.

      I would also like to see odf-compatibility documents where one could open an odf file, and a png image, and if they looked the same than the office suit would be deemed odf compliant. Similar to the reference image for the CSS Acid tests.
      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    18. Re:An Empire in Rapid Decline, said Time Magazine. by Red+Alastor · · Score: 1

      I'm more scared of them supporting ODF than I am of OOXML. How do we know they aren't going to try to do what they successfully did to Netscape. They could easily add a bunch of their own stuff into ODF so that nothing but Office would be able to read the ODF files Office puts out.
      How would they do that? OpenOffice reads any format they come up with, modified ODF would be no exception. Beside, the only way ODF would benefit them is to have a format that is required by some agencies (including many government). If they add proprietary extensions, they lose that sole benefit.
      --
      Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
  20. Worse than that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not even they are going to implement it until the next full office release.

    Not even the next Office will support it. Office 2007 is version 12. If the article is correct (they said Office 14), that's two releases away!

    1. Re:Worse than that by mhall119 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Office 2008 for Mac may have the version 13 identifier.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    2. Re:Worse than that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. I stand corrected.

    3. Re:Worse than that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not really about superstition. Office 13 was going to be a 64-bit release of the same features as are in Office 12. They cut that release after planning had begun on Office 14, so that left a hole in their release names. Document templates for specs, posters, code names, etc, had all been started with Office 14 as the name, so they left it as it was.

    4. Re:Worse than that by FutureDomain · · Score: 1

      Office 2007 is version 12. If the article is correct (they said Office 14), that's two releases away! Actually, it is the next release. Microsoft skips the number 13 in their versions.
      --
      Hydraulic pizza oven!! Guided missile! Herring sandwich! Styrofoam! Jayne Mansfield! Aluminum siding! Borax!
  21. Even Larger Question by mpapet · · Score: 1

    How long does that "patent non-assertion" protection racket last? More to the point, WHAT patents have been violated?

    What will the license be like? Let's ignore for a moment the argument about the enforceability of eula's.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  22. A bit misleading by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 4, Informative

    The summary is a bit misleading. Current Office 2007 documents fail to validate as transitional OOXML because of some very minor differences. For example, the final standard changed an attribute value from "yes/no" to "true/false".

    All major ODF implementations, including OpenOffice, fail to validate against ISO ODF 1.0 for similar reasons.

    Thus, to make some big deal of Microsoft not immediately slipstreaming in an update to Office to 100% conform to OOXML, while ignoring the fact that OpenOffice still doesn't fully conform to ODF so long after ODF 1.0 was ratified is a bit hypocritical.

    1. Re:A bit misleading by pembo13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure I would call changing how a basic data type is represented to be minor.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    2. Re:A bit misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citations, please.

      Sorry, knowing this article is about Microsoft and how much money is invested in them squeezing out ODF and forcing OOXML on all of us, I cannot take your claims at face value.

      Please let me know the source of your information so I may evaluate further and see if there might be any problems. Thanks in advance.

    3. Re:A bit misleading by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 2, Informative

      here.

    4. Re:A bit misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I call this misleading:

      "All major ODF implementations, including OpenOffice, fail to validate against ISO ODF 1.0 for similar reasons."

      The truth is quite simple: All major ODF implementations produce ODF 1.1(!!) documents.

      And they validate against 1.1.

      If you validate a 1.1 document with a 1.0 based validator it WILL fail. OFCOURSE.

      Yeez. Please understand reality before you insult ODF implementors. They are doing the right thing.

    5. Re:A bit misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The technical details about the value is in the simple type "ST_OnOff". In the proposed edition of OOXML it provided the possible values:

      1
      0
      true
      false
      on
      off

      Thereby augmenting the xsd:boolean type with "on" and "off". These two latter choices were removed at the BRM so the simple type ST_OnOff now only consists of the xsd:boolean value space.

      Jesper Lund Stocholm
      htpp://www.idippedut.dk

  23. To be in control of their own future by benjymouse · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know that the common perception on slashdot is that ODF is the only format we need because of its OO heritage. That is frankly a naïve position. The format was backed by IBM, Oracle and Sun for a reason. Right now MS' selling point for Office is features. Some would call it bloated - but MS Office still has more features than OO. That may not be that important to the vast majority of users, but it is a selling point nontheless.

    Imagine a situation where MS could not leverage the feature advantage, because the standard persistence format could not represent the advanced feature set. Ink comes to mind; it's actually part of OXML but there's not anything like it in ODF. Representatives for Microsofts competitors could fight any extension (invoking the "err on side of caution" argument) of the format until OO/StarOffice was prepared to implement the feature as well. But that would actually stiffle innovation and hurt the customers who could actually realize a productivity gain from new features.

    By creating a situation where we have two formats and already a situation where one is larger and with more features specified, Microsoft has got a situation where they can let the "conservatives" drive (or not) ODF, and Microsoft can be the primary driver of OXML, although they can now only make suggestions and requests. In short they have a situation where they stand a better chance at exposing the hidden agendas of their competitors representatives should they ever try to hold back Microsoft innovation in Office for compettitive reasons.

    I don't believe for a second that the motives of IBM, Oracle and Sun were always free of hidden agendas. Of course they saw their involvement (and influence through merits) in ODF as a way to gain some control over the future of MS Office. Office has always been one of MS' best cash cows.

    You can argue that we don't need any more innovation in the office productivity area. But that would be an opinion and not something you should base a standard upon.

    --
    Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
    1. Re:To be in control of their own future by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      People usually point out that the fact that ODF is not the product of only OO.org is in fact a good thing.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    2. Re:To be in control of their own future by prockcore · · Score: 0, Troll

      I don't believe for a second that the motives of IBM, Oracle and Sun were always free of hidden agendas.


      IBM has 2 people on the payroll who's sole purpose is to trash OOXML (Rob Weir and PJ). IBM definitely has a hidden agenda.
    3. Re:To be in control of their own future by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      So, because it may help someone OTHER than Microsoft, we should continue using Microsoft's sub-par lock-in formats? Interesting logic you have there...

      ODF is from a consortium of people, it's not dictated from on high. It's a completely open, documented standard. Microsoft has nothing near that. I will forego features if it means I have an open format I can guarantee I can access in the future, and I would hope that most businesses and governments would feel the same way. A business or government should NEVER be completely dependent on the whims of another company.

    4. Re:To be in control of their own future by jdeisenberg · · Score: 2, Informative

      "IBM has 2 people on the payroll who's sole purpose is to trash OOXML (Rob Weir and PJ)."

      Incorrect. Rob Weir is also a contributor to the ODF specification (see appendix H here and is co-chair of the OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) Technical Committee, so he does more than just "trash OOXML."

    5. Re:To be in control of their own future by mingot · · Score: 1

      Um, are you on crack? Three people. You forgot Bob Sutor.

    6. Re:To be in control of their own future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, following your reasoning, every standard "stiffle innovation, and hurt the customers". Right? Your point is that proprietary file formats are more able to stimulate innovation. Well, it is your opinion, which is not shared by the Open Source community, but neither by the business, engineering or research people.

    7. Re:To be in control of their own future by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Wrong.

      1) The ODF standards committee was not closed to Microsoft. If they wanted to get in on the standard and make sure all their advanced "features" were represented in the spec, they could have done so quite easily. Instead, they refused to participate, spewed a lot of FUD about ODF, and make up their own, half-assed, incompatible "standard".

      2) Cutting-edge innovation (your beloved "features") and standardization are NOT compatible. Any fool knows this. Standardization usually requires getting opposing, competing parties together to agree on something, even if it isn't technically optimal for either one of them. And then, once a standard is in place, cutting-edge innovation is out, because every change now requires an update to the standard, which has to go through the standards committee. If you want to do cutting-edge innovation, stay away from standards. But if you want the benefits that come with standards, you better figure out how to slow down your "innovation" and work with others. Most consumers aren't very interested in cutting-edge innovation; they want something that's mature, works, and with data formats, they want something that doesn't lock them into a single vendor. There's many standards out there we use every day, such as HTML, JPG, PDF, etc. which we all rely on to get stuff done. None of these are optimal, and they're certainly not cutting-edge. Most of them have been around for many, many years. But they're standards, so when you get a file in that format, you can work with it with many different standards-compliant tools and get your work done. Cutting-edge data formats are not meant for mass-market use. If you're still trying to push "cutting-edge" "features" into a mature, stable product for people to get serious work done with, you're doing something wrong.

  24. What happens to OXML? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    OXML was put on the fast track for being accepted as an international standard. The fast track is intended only to be used for protocols that are already a de facto standard. Microsoft are now admitting that they do not support it themselves, and certainly no one else does. Logically, it should therefore be withdrawn as a standard and, possibly, be resubmitted through the normal route.

  25. What people want by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they don't give people what they want, which is honest standards, they will just speed migration away from them.


    Sorry, but most people actually couldn't give a crap about standards. Most people just want a functional suite of office applications that works more or less the way they've come to expect such programs. Most people aren't even aware that there is such a thing as a file format, or that there are different types of them.

    Most people also want to be able to easily exchange documents with other people. That's part of the reason why Office is so well entrenched. Sure, you can download a copy of OO to open an ODF file, but if you're running a business, you don't want to make your clients do that, because it's a hassle. Nearly everyone has Office, and practically nobody has OO (this is in rough marketshare percentages).

    Don't get me wrong. I would rather have a clear, open standard with a decent existing implementation that's not tied to the whims of a vendor. But I and people like me really are a very small part of the market.
    1. Re:What people want by DannyO152 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The most people you speak of are the ones who buy Office one license at a time. A lot of people, to be sure, but Office makes its big bucks with the site purchases. At these places, there are gatekeepers who may have been alerted about the long-term costs of non-standard file formats (and may already be approving FOSS deployments) and will darn well drop the product from the approved list if the vendor is playing games.

    2. Re:What people want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and most people will also not give a damn about whether they've got, I don't know, free speech or the right to vote or whatever. I mean, seriously - how many times recently have you actually said something seditious (and not on the Internet), and how many times have you felt your vote changed something?

      Of course, what I said above is not quite true: most people actually give a damn, at least to an extent. But that's not because it's in their nature to do so, it's because others have worked tirelessly to make sure they see why these things ARE important.

      What you're doing is basically saying "OK, I give up". And while I'm not saying there'll be a guaranteed success if you try to educate people, you can be darn sure there won't be one if you don't try.

      Winners never quit, and quitters never win, and all that. Standards DO matter, and they DO matter to real people - to everyone from Joe Schmoe the CEO to my grandmother. We just (well, "just") need to make sure people understand that - we need to educate them.

    3. Re:What people want by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While you're right, most of the people who want these things also don't particularly care what product they use, and will use what they know about...
      They also tend to have rather limited requirements, and wouldn't want to spend a lot of money on it.

      Someone who just types up a few letters or does their own limited accounts in a spreadsheet would be much better off with openoffice, if only due to the cost. There are also a number of cheap suites, such as msworks being marketed quite successfully to these people.

      Large companies and governments on the other hand, are starting to realise the importance of open formats but are far more constrained by the need to support an existing corpus of documents in proprietary formats, and communication with other companies who use proprietary formats. There's also a large number of businesses who would like to implement openoffice for the financial savings if nothing else too.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:What people want by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Most people just want a functional suite of office applications that works more or less the way they've come to expect such programs. And thanks to Office's Ribbon, and various Vista "improvements", Linux and OpenOffice may actually be closer to the way they've come to expect.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    5. Re:What people want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Most people might not give a crap, but some standardization bureaus might.
      Here in Norway pdf and odf was selected as national standards (guess ooxml might join soon). Which means all documents from the government, published as editable text must also be published as an odf-document.
      I assume similar regulations exist elsewhere, and that Microsoft thinks they will loose more customers on not suporting any ISO-standard, than by supporting that-other-standard.

    6. Re:What people want by nine-times · · Score: 1

      If they don't give people what they want, which is honest standards, they will just speed migration away from them.
      Sorry, but most people actually couldn't give a crap about standards.

      Well most people may not give a crap about standards, but when talking about the success of MS Office, you're not talking about "most people". You're talking about "most people (likely to buy MS Office)".

      I'd bet IT workers account for a substantial portion of MS Office sales, and further I'd bet that a substantial portion of IT people are sick of dealing with incompatible file formats and vendor lock-in.

    7. Re:What people want by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      If you're running a business and need to exchange files OOo is more than adequate. In 30 years of running businesses most people who receive documents only care that they can open the file.

      Different version of MSOffice render the documents inconsistently. Most users have not seen the document in it's original form to actually say that there is any difference.

      Most files are simple letters and in my experience intricate and complicated spreadsheets are not forwarded without being locked down if they are forwarded at all.

      People just want it to work. I have yet to experience any problems with OOo and forwarded word documents.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    8. Re:What people want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need to download OOo to open an ODF file. Firefox has an ODF reader as a plugin. It opens an ODF text or spreadsheet as if it were a paper document (like PDF). ie. You can't edit it.

  26. It's about sales by aduzik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Office is Microsoft's biggest-selling product by revenue, even more than Windows. Since governments are mandating open formats, Microsoft has no choice but to implement ODF if they want to keep selling those lucrative enterprise agreements. Getting OOXML approved as a standard format was a huge win for them to be sure, but governments could (and will) just as easily standardize on ODF, especially given all the problems with OOXML. Microsoft used to rely on file format lock-in as a sales tool, but it seems now compatibility and (gasp) quality are Microsoft's selling points for Office. They're doing what it takes to maintain those huge sales.

    --
    If it's not one thing it's your mother.
    1. Re:It's about sales by raddan · · Score: 1

      Microsoft used to rely on file format lock-in as a sales tool, but it seems now compatibility and (gasp) quality are Microsoft's selling points for Office. Watch the next step be the ability to switch back to menus instead of the toolbar.
    2. Re:It's about sales by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

      Yeah, just like how they maintain POSIX compliance.

    3. Re:It's about sales by javilon · · Score: 1

      Agreed,

      Probably, the way things are going, the governments will require that any suite they use will understand both of the ISO formats, ODF and OOXML. As soon as this happens and OpenOffice (or whatever other open source office suite you choose) implements filters for OOXML, the format lock in advantage from M$ Office will be lost.

      --


      When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
  27. End of the World by AppleTwoGuru · · Score: 1

    After all that crap about OOXML is open when it is not, all that railroading of the ISO and they are going to support ODF anyway? I am packing my bags. Jesus is coming soon!

  28. You could be right by overshoot · · Score: 2, Funny

    Honestly, the first thing I thought when I saw this article was that it had to be some kind of April Fools article come late.
    Maybe they were using Excel with a file that actually conformed with ISO date formats?
    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  29. Will be in Office 2007 SP2, link to press release by quazee · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2008/may08/05-21ExpandedFormatsPR.mspx

    Also, ODF will be allowed to be configured as the default format for documents.
    SP2 will also include support for PDF and XPS export.

    --
    throw new SuccessException("Sig read successfully");
  30. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  31. So much confusion... by Benanov · · Score: 2, Funny

    It seems like that all of the really-close-but-not-quite naming schemes meant to cause confusion have finally confused even Microsoft's *marketing* people.

    I have a feeling this will get turned on its head: "oh, we really meant OOXML, sorry!"

  32. Easily predictable: by blind+biker · · Score: 1

    MS Office is by far the most widespread office application package. We're talking 90% of marketshare in both Windows and Mac worlds. So what does this allow Microsoft?

    - Implement ODF support but so that many ODF documents created by look like crap in MS Office. Typical user: " is crap."

    - ODF documents created by MS Office look like crap when read by , or even make crash. Typical user: " is crap."

    - Govt. and other institutions that mandate the use of standards-supporting office applications are satisfied that their most-often used software, MS Office, satisfies the requirement. In the meantime, MS works hard to release their OOXML-supporting Office.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:Easily predictable: by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 0

      -Governments switch to OOo because it is cheaper and they "know" that whomever they send the files to will be able to read them.

    2. Re:Easily predictable: by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      No they don't. This is farcical bullshit.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    3. Re:Easily predictable: by rathaven · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I'm not so sure. They can only lose share to quite capable (and free) alternatives. Its not the empty marketplace it was 5 years ago.

      If Microsoft's options are:

      Plan A) Lose market share and goodwill by making things as awkward as possible, making a hash of the implementation or making their products look poor.

      Plan B) Lose less market share by having a crack at making the ODF implementation they can one top of the base of their current line.

      Its probably a good bet that someone not interested in playing law suit marketing can see the benefit of having the best, most extended (with proprietary extensions) ODF format they can.

    4. Re:Easily predictable: by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 0

      It's a nice thought, though.

    5. Re:Easily predictable: by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Oh, agreed. That doesn't make it any less so. :P

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
  33. Word processing vs. Page layout by overshoot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's called a bug. Word processing files should look exactly the same across platforms and versions, with exceptions given for missing fonts or other referenced data.
    You're confusing word processing with page layout. If you want total control over presentation, use FrameMaker -- that's what it's for.

    At the other end of the spectrum, you can use LaTex and various front ends and again have total control over appearance across platforms, but without the user having to worry about the details. Word processing is in between and compromises on both layout and content orientation.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Word processing vs. Page layout by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      You're confusing word processing with page layout.

      No, I'm not. Layout programs are for letting the user more exactly place content. There is absolutely no reason why a word processing document cannot be rendered exactly by each program and printed exactly by each device. If it does not, it is a bug.

      If you want total control over presentation, use FrameMaker -- that's what it's for.

      No it isn't. Framemaker is primarily for longer documents than Word can handle easily and more features aimed at technical books and manuals. It does have better support for exact layout than say MSWord, but it also has worse support than something like InDesign or Quark.

      I fundamentally disagree with you. Give me one good reason why a word processing document should look different when viewed on different computers that have all the fonts used.

    2. Re:Word processing vs. Page layout by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Give me one good reason why a word processing document should look different when viewed on different computers that have all the fonts used.

      Because not all printers are physically capable of identical output. The most obvious example being the use of A4- vs US-Letter-sized paper.

    3. Re:Word processing vs. Page layout by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Because not all printers are physically capable of identical output. The most obvious example being the use of A4- vs US-Letter-sized paper.

      At which point it can scale or you can change the setting in your word processor to use a different sized paper (which you have to do in Word already). We're talking about printing the same document onto the same sized paper. Some versions of MS word screw this up, because they rely upon the fonts installed on the printer. This is a bug. Have you really drank the MS kool-aid so much that you believe this bug is a feature?

    4. Re:Word processing vs. Page layout by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      At which point it can scale or you can change the setting in your word processor to use a different sized paper (which you have to do in Word already).

      Scaling makes the output look different, which is supposed to be the thing you're complaining about.

      Changing the paper size to match the source - assuming you end up with the same margins, etc and that computer has the same fonts available - will result in a document that looks the same (and if that doesn't *then* it's a bug).

      We're talking about printing the same document onto the same sized paper.

      With the same margins ? To the same printer ?

      Some versions of MS word screw this up, because they rely upon the fonts installed on the printer. This is a bug. Have you really drank the MS kool-aid so much that you believe this bug is a feature?

      It *is* a feature (more accurately, correct behaviour). It's working exactly the way it's designed to and is supposed to. If your document is formatted based on the metrics of a font that isn't present on the machine (eg: a printer font on another machine), then the correct action for a word processor to take is to reformat the page. This is true regardless of who may happen to have developed said word processor.

      The only behaviours you have hinted at that could be considered bugs are a) identical printer, margin, page, font, etc configurations producing different outputs, and b) Word using printer fonts even though the user had specified non-printer fonts.

      However your main complaint is about word processors reformatting documents at all. When a Word Processor reformats a document to match the capabilities and configuration of the select output device (eg: a printer) it is working _exactly_ as it should. If it does not, then it is broken. If you find this behaviour unexpected, then you're using the wrong tool for the job.

  34. Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by Fallen+Andy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    All MS will do is implement full ODF 1.1 plus microsoft "extensions" (sic) a la the farce with Java. Since many users will bite the baited hook the result will be endless cycles where OpenOffice etc. have to play catchup to hack in the same extensions.

    (or of course like Orcs in Warcraft III we really really have misunderstood them ...).

    Andy

    1. Re:Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by samkass · · Score: 0, Redundant

      a la the farce with Java

      I'm sorry? Sun is making excellent strides toward getting Java fully open-source. They greatly diminished their reliance on libraries they'd licensed over the years with each OpenJDK release, to the point where most Java code out there doesn't need the stuff that's left encumbered. Thus Fedora and friends have been able to put a near-complete OpenJDK in their distro.

      At this point, actually, Java is open-source to the point where as a commercial entity it's a little frustrating to use some of the new stuff. For example, the new scenegraph in JavaFX is GPL. No LGPL, no classpath exception-- if you use it and want to redistribute your app, you GPL anything that touches it.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    2. Re:Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by aliquis · · Score: 1

      I understand them quite well, it goes something like this:

      1) Build bm and try to harass, fail.
      2) Tech wind riders.

      Point 2 aren't valid in 100% of the cases but it's damn near at say 90% or so in RT games.

      Solution?
      Own them with talons and eventually faerie dragons because it's fun.
      = visible bm, fucked up air, cycloned taurens, cycloned + faerie fired grunts, .. Beware of bats thought ;D

    3. Re:Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by Stormwatch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, you got it backwards. The aforementioned farce was when Microsoft did a corrupted implementation of Java.

    4. Re:Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Back in the 90's MS cut a deal to install Java on their systems out of the box. Sun was pleased with it until MS decided to embrace and extend the Java by creating a bunch of custom and in some cases poorely documented closed APIs that made the MS Java incomputable with Sun's Java and made the cross platform write once run anywhere thing a no go.

      Sun sued MS over it and after something like 10 years in the courts, they finally settled. The entire situation was part of the MS antitrust case too I think.

    5. Re:Doesn't even need to be patent encumbered by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      And the real winners of the battle were Macromedia (now Adobe) Flash.

      Very few people have Java on their computers these days, while most have Flash Player.

  35. can't create reality with your keyboard, twitter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative
    So really twitter, all you do is post trolls with your negative karma accounts and create openings for your other sockpuppets to post essentially the same thing, but with... wait for it... links. This thread is exactly the same. You've really figured out how to game the moderation system, haven't you?

    It doesn't make sense when you say it as twitter, and it doesn't make sense when you say it as Erris, gnutoo, Mactrope, inTheLoo, westbake, willeyhill or Odder or any other of your personalities.

    Also, talk about not caring if someone figures out that you're the same person, all your links are pasted from twiter's lame journal of the past few days. I mean, as if Robert Scoble (who I'm sure had lots of credibility for you when he worked for Microsoft) posting a one-liner to twitter (irony) saying he's not going to drop $400 on Office means anything at all.

  36. woops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wrong forum

  37. Microcalypse Now by argent · · Score: 1

    I love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning.

    1. Re:Microcalypse Now by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Fuck you lady, that's what stairs are for.

    2. Re:Microcalypse Now by Jaxoreth · · Score: 1

      I still want to see the CEO get shackled.

      --
      In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
  38. orbituary by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

    okay, there are still a number of ifs here, but it looks like as of the release of sp2 for office microsoft is officially dead.

    my question is, how did sun, ibm and google manage to put the pressure on adobe? It looks to me like offering native pdf support for office was the carrot for microsoft here.

  39. Vista? by Comboman · · Score: 1
    I don't think so. I am not sure about this yet. Micrsoft, as a company, is very intelligent. They threw a lot of money at OOXML. I may not like their software offerings, but I fully admit Microsoft doesn't just waste money.

    They threw a lot of money at Vista too and look how that turned out: Years late, missing important promised features, PITA for users. In fact, I suspect that one reason OOXML support is late is because staff got pulled off of Office to work on Vista.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  40. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  41. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't make sense now either, twitter.

  42. I almost thought Micro$oft went good by jopsen · · Score: 3, Informative

    "About two hours ago, Microsoft announced that it will update Office 2007 to natively support ODF 1.1, but not to implement its own OOXML format.
    I almost thought Microsoft went good... but then it came:

    Not until Office 14 is released (no date given so far for that) will anyone be able to buy an OOXML ISO-compliant version.
    But they had me there for a moment... Just for 2 secound I actually thought they were going to do something good - without a ulterior motive... But they're still implementing OOXML in the future...
    1. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why shouldn't they support both formats?

    2. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Actually, the real question is why isn't implementing it trivial? It shouldn't take that long. OOXML is based off of their own existing format after all.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    3. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Actually, the real question is why isn't implementing it trivial? It shouldn't take that long. OOXML is based off of their own existing format after all. Given that time frame, Openoffice.org and iWorks will have support for OOXML way before Microsoft Office.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    4. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      It depends on the changes required by the ISO to approve the standard. They may not be trival. Also, a way to conver the older format to the new one is needed, everything needs LOTS of testing, oh and I don't think they had developers sitting on their hands waiting for the ISO to finish their changes so they could "get right on that."

    5. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Rounding back to my question, after a bit of thinking I've concluded iWorks and OpenOffice probably are advertising Microsoft OOXML compatibility and not ISO OOMXL compatibility.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    6. Re:I almost thought Micro$oft went good by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Hmm.. never even occurred to me either. Thanks for coming back and throwing that out there though too.

  43. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I don't understand why this is modded as flamebait? The AC is correct in all points. gnutoo is a sockpuppet account of twitter, and he is saying exactly the same thing but adding cool links to the post (from twitter's journal, no less). Robert Scoble saying he won't buy Office 2007 is relevant why, exactly? Office 2007 is probably Microsoft's best-selling product at this point in time, so whatever twitter is trying to imply by posting that is clearly disingenuous.

    Has it become a crime to reply to twitter or point out he's using multiple accounts and manipulating the moderations system?

  44. All you need to do is create ODF document... by Cannelloni · · Score: 1

    ...templates for Word, Excel etc, and use those instead of the default formats. Standardization is a war Microsoft can't win, not any more.

    --
    Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
  45. awesome by friedman101 · · Score: 1

    in my eyes this is excellent news. i get the interface of ms office (sorry guys it's miles ahead of OOo) with the open standards of open office. what's to complain about?

  46. Kudos to MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, MS says they will not support ODF, and everyone here gave them flack for it.

    Now, MS says they will support ODF, and everyone (ok, most people) here are still given them flack for it.

    So I just want to say Kudos to MS for making a good decision.

    1. Re:Kudos to MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too true.

      I find that slashdot never gives the bigger, older companies any credit, even when they deserve it. It's like how nobody has commented on how awesome recent releases of DB2 has been.

    2. Re:Kudos to MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also absolutely agree.

      its like everybody these days wants to hop on the bandwagon of any new thing and wants all the old stuff to fail.

      Just look at how Google is treated here.

      Also, look at all the hype over all of the new Tiger Woods golf games, what about the credit for Mario Golf? that game is so good it would make me want to steal someones N64 controller.

    3. Re:Kudos to MS by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      When they weren't going to support it at all (and considering their counter-offfer, OOXML) they were acting pretty scummily. Scummily enough to be obviously scummy. Slashdotters rejoiced at their failure because it would be an obvious one.

      Now that they seem like they will support it, cynical slashdotters, questioning MS's motives for such things (and burned by MS's treatment of Java), wonder what evil plans MS has up their sleeves here.

      Only time will tell if their cynicism is correct. Based on past experience, though, it is certainly justified.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  47. Ballmer's flipped by Cally · · Score: 1

    We know, as every real Microsoft employee secretly knows in their heart of hearts, that it's all over... Nordlicht has failed, the winter's setting in, and Ballmer's down there in his bunker with a roomful of expensive matchwood. Still clutching a splintered fragment of a tasteful sofa in his hand (although it would be impolite to mention the shreds of fabric hanging from his mouth), his eyes dart wildly from a shredded "The WOW starts Now!" poster, to a voodoo doll of RMS, to a dartboard with Michael Dell's picture pinned to it. Outside, the loyal generals are choosing lots about who wants to go in and tell him the latest disastrous news from the Western front...

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  48. Why Microsoft supports the ODF format by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First OOXML is not approved by the ISO yet. So by Office 14, the ISO will approve of a final format and OOXML support can be added to Office 14 and I am sure Microsoft will release retropatches for older Office versions to support it as well. Most likely going back as far as Office 2000 or Office 97.

    Microsoft knows that OpenOffice.Org, Star Office, IBM Lotus Symphony, and other office suites already support ODF, and Microsoft does not want Office 2007 to be the pink elephant that does not support ODF, and Office 2007 users couldn't open up ODF format documents from friends and coworkers, and would flock to Office 2007 alternatives to open them up. Microsoft knows that would cut into Office 2007 sales as most ODF office suites are free to download and use.

    Microsoft also knows that many governments have already decided to support ODF format documents, and if Office 2007 doesn't get ODF support, sales will go to Microsoft's competitors.

    There have been massive online campaigns for ODF and against OOXML, this is Microsoft's way of silencing critics of Office 2007 that it does not support a true open standard.

    Microsoft knows that MS-Word and PDF documents have already started to be replaced with ODF documents. Also the old RTF format no longer meets the needs of Internet documents anymore and MS-Word format is just a modified RTF format. Just as Adobe lost control of who uses the PDF standard, Microsoft knows that they can get control of the ODF format from Sun/IBM etc as well.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:Why Microsoft supports the ODF format by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      First OOXML is not approved by the ISO yet. So by Office 14, the ISO will approve of a final format and OOXML support can be added to Office 14

      Just like DOC and RTF weren't added to MS Office until they were approved ISO standards.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    2. Re:Why Microsoft supports the ODF format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft does not want Office 2007 to be the pink elephant that does not support ODF

      Please get your metaphorical elephant colours right.
      Pink elephant - what you traditionally see when very very drunk. A very good one (with top hat and monocle) appears in the Simpsons episode with the hippies where Homer drugs the entire town by accident and Barney drinks to combat the hallucinations.

      White elephant - something obsolete or useless or more trouble than it's worth (presumably this is what you were aiming for)

  49. Surprising... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    Well, i am surprised to see Microsoft supporting ODF in their office suite, and before Apple too...
    Will they support it on the Mac version of office too?

    It's also good to see Microsoft contributing towards the ISO/OASIS process for future versions of ODF, and if they have any genuinely worthwhile enhancements i hope they will be incorporated.

    Now the questions are...
    How good will the support be?
    Will they deviate from the spec and introduce proprietary extensions?
    Will it let you set the default save format to ODF, on a single system and on a network via group policies?
    Did the EU put pressure on them to support ODF?

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  50. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not a crime to reply; just reply-on topic and without accusations that are irrelevant to the point under discussion. Seriously, it makes perfect sense to me that someone be karmically punished for obsessing over someone else's posting habits as opposed to discussing the topic at hand.

    Aside from that, even if he /were/ gaming the moderation system, it seems that he's only succeeded in having multiple accounts with bad karma... not a terribly effective 'gaming', wouldn't you say?

    Aw damn. This is the second post like this I've made -- now I'm doing it too! Crap! Bring on the karmic punishment!

  51. Works by XB-70 · · Score: 1
    With all the excitement, we're not giving enough time to that venerable, quality product: MS Works. For just $39.95 USD, you, too, can have an office suite that is compatible with absolutely EVERY document format. Simply install Works, create your document and cut and paste it into whatever document/spreadsheet software you use. Voilà!! It just Works!!

    Now if MS would just announce that all versions of Works could meet a Microsoft standard (of any type - especially other versions of Works), the European High Court would be doing cartwheels in the streets...

    --
    *** Don't be dull.***
  52. Re:It won't matter. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that 95% market ownership is totally fucked. A poorly run company can begin to lose its new-market dominance, and then as time goes by it only has continuously-eroding legacy support, which becomes expensive and irritating and usually drives customers towards consultants eventually, at which point consultants recommend migration to a maintainable system where possible.

    Free software is in everyone's best interest. Free software is not in everyone's best interest. I can think of numerous groups who'd say that free software is diametrically opposed to their best interest. The one that comes to mind first is game developers (and, by extension, gamers). F/OSS methodologies don't translate well to game development. Look at FreeCiv--it's been around since 1996 and it doesn't even surpass Civilization II in quality! Then you have Quake becoming Nexuiz. A few nice games out there but who wants to make them?

    Now, a game console with an open source platform would appeal to game developers nicely. Think about a full-featured Minix-driven system with a small graphical subsystem (kdrive for X, with about 10 megs of libraries and X server, with OpenGL support) and a set of libraries to supply a developer's API. Home-brew hackers would try to improve and expand this API, and that would get back to game developers. Useful things would be non-infectious GPL stuff, i.e. BSD or MIT or PD or LGPL.
  53. So it took them this long? by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 1

    They finally realized that OOXML is in fact an abortion and not implementable even on a hypothetical level?

    Well imagine that!

    Perhaps they're frightened of Neelie Kroes. I'd be. Finally there's something that the EU is good for, i.e. standing up to fuck-huge money.

    1. Re:So it took them this long? by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they're frightened of Neelie Kroes. I'd be. Finally there's something that the EU is good for, i.e. stealing fuck-huge amounts of money. Fixed that for you.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    2. Re:So it took them this long? by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 1

      Oh you whiny libertarian bitch you.

  54. Re:It won't matter. by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

    Then you have Quake becoming Nexuiz. A few nice games out there but who wants to make them? Exactly.

    Now, a game console with an open source platform would appeal to game developers nicely. Think about a full-featured Minix-driven system with a small graphical subsystem (kdrive for X, with about 10 megs of libraries and X server, with OpenGL support) and a set of libraries to supply a developer's API. Home-brew hackers would try to improve and expand this API, and that would get back to game developers. Useful things would be non-infectious GPL stuff, i.e. BSD or MIT or PD or LGPL. I'd love to see that. That said, you can't demand that all the software on it should be GPL--because GPL will drive everyone else away.
    --
    "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
  55. I think I speak for a lot of us by quantaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When I say this sounds like a good sign...

    But almost every time stuff like this happens, Microsoft eventually ends up playing their old tricks.

    It would be cool if they surprised us this time, but they have far too great a credibility dept for me to think anything particularly good will come from this move.

    --
    I stole this Sig
    1. Re:I think I speak for a lot of us by pizzach · · Score: 1

      It would be cool if they surprised us this time, but they have far too great a credibility dept for me to think anything particularly good will come from this move. I know the feeling. I want to be happy. I really do. But the headline reads a little too much like the ending to a fairy tale to settle right in my mind.
      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
  56. ODF will not be the default save option by mikestov · · Score: 0

    I haven't read through all the comments, so I apologize if this is a dupe. Even if they implement ODF 1.1 100% to spec, I'm sure it wont be the default option to save a document. From personal experience, people who aren't computer savvy don't check the options but just click save, pick a directory, and figure their stuff is saved. So even if they do implement a 100% to specification ODF, the frustration of "What format is the document? Is it ODF? It has to be ODF, go back and save it as ODF and send it!" will overwhelm the vast majority of users will get so frustrated they will just get office to avoid this hassle. Anyway, if they do actually implement ODF without any strings attached ("Hey, we have ODF, with OLE!") it will be good for everybody, since at least one companies tech people can send a smaller company who opts to use OpenOffice documents in ODF and have it look good. -Mike

    1. Re:ODF will not be the default save option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Office 2007 has a pretty easy to find/use option for changing the default save format. The feature has been there in Word for as long as I can remember, and ODF will be added to the list of allowed formats.

      Will it be *the* default? No, but easy enough to change.

  57. Re: VBA for Mac Office will return in next release by llamafirst · · Score: 1

    OO.o 3 will include support for VBA macros. That should help. Oh, and MS Office 2008 for Mac will not.

    Office 2008 for Mac exists now, and yes it doesn't have VBA. However, VBA will return to Office in the next release.

    See http://www.macworld.com/article/133393/2008/05/vba.html?t=201 for details.

    It's an interesting strategic move to bring VBA back despite it being a complete re-write from what I've heard. They must reeeeeeeally need it to stay competitive with OO and similar apps.

  58. Missed again, Charlie Brown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, they are supporting ODF so they can provide an extended proprietary version of it that won't work with OpenOffice. Then they will turn that into a PR ploy to downplay the advantages of open standards, OpenOffice, etc.

    MS is one of the most predictable companies on the planet. And people still fall for the same tricks, over and over and over. Lucy and Charlie Brown.

  59. Quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Overall the Office team tends not to drop crappy code on their customers. Its one of the biggest (the biggest?) money makers at the company so they don't want to do anything to hurt that. I'm not saying they didn't resist ODF, but once they say they will support it, it probably will be a reasonably functional implementation. When OOXML come out will that get an even higher level of polish and functionality? Wouldn't be surprised.

  60. Too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Too late for what, you annoying troll? Capturing 97% of the office suite market? Opps, they already did that.

    If you're going to troll with one-liners that create openings for your sockpuppets to karma whore, please answer the question, too late for what?

  61. You Have EARNED your -1 Troll mod's and then some by rts008 · · Score: 1

    1. "They have admitted they need ODF..." Where? When? (citation needed)
    2. "...everyone knows OOXML is not ready ...." Everyone? Maybe most of us here on /. will agree, (then again, maybe not!) but that hardly accounts for 'everyone'.
    Come up out of your Mom's Basement and have a look at modern reality. 'Everyone' is just going about their 'own life' and could care less about OOMXL, ODF, and MS.
    3. "If they don't really become an honest company,..." WTF?!?!?
      Honest Company?...what is that?....like Disney? Sony? MS? Who....name one, I dare you!

    All I can think when I read your post is, like something from Frank Zappa's 'Titties and Beer'....'I got me three beers and a fist-full of downs, I'm gonna get ripped, so fuck you clowns!'

    Yes, I know that feeding trolls only keeps them coming back, but I could not help this one.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  62. Before the OOXML turns into more FUD... by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 0

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/bb265236.aspx

    OOXML is already supported in the fullest implmentation available.

    It is also extensible to support full specification (which was requested features outside of Microsoft).

    So for the ODF before OOXML is not only wrong, but REALLY wrong.

  63. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by Miseph · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's okay, I too wonder what the hell people's problem with twitter actually is.

    He has multiple accounts? So fucking what? His posts aren't that great? Again, so fucking what?

    Is twitter some sort of child molester and I missed the memo, or is it really just that some number of ACs really have nothing better to do than search out all of his posts and whine about him because... um... just because?

    --
    Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  64. From the horse's mouth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    twitter deserves frequent ridicule and criticism because he frequently does
    things which are wrong. He is either too stupid to understand the social
    harm he does or is too greedy to care and he should be called to task each
    time he is caught saying or doing the wrong things. This is an impossible
    task for any single person, of course, but it's easy for the community if we
    cooperate and share what we know.

    http://brlug.net/pipermail/general_brlug.net/2008-April/018422.html

  65. Microsoft IS allowing ODF to be the default by I'm+Don+Giovanni · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/rss.xml

    "And of course users can set ODF to be the default format if they wish, the same way they would for other Word, Excel or PowerPoint formats."

    --
    -- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
  66. Actually I'm concerned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if they implement ODF support really badly causing people to think ODF is bad and hence, Openoffice is bad. I know its BS, but what about Joe Average?

  67. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  68. Dutch Defense Department using ODF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe this would have something to do with the announcement of the Dutch Defense Department, that they went to use MS Office with the SUN ODF plugin ? And use ODF as their internal document standard ?

    Just my 2 cts.

  69. How long until ODF includes by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From FTA:
    Moreover, it would also join both the OASIS working group as well as the ISO/IEC JTC1 working group that has control of the ISO/IEC version of ODF.

    How long until they bribe the working group and we find that ODF includes specifications like "word wrap like office 95"?

  70. Counting noses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    O2K7 may be selling well, but you seem to have forgotten that the parent poster had bought O2K7 and only then realised (because who would expect it) the format isn't working in a heterogenous Windows network. How are you supposed to tell your customer that they have to upgrade to O2K7 just because they are on 2003?

    So you can't tell until AFTER you bought it how it won't work in your situation. And you can't get your money back.

    Sure, slashdot sucks but only because arseholes are modding up crap like yours (and so many christian bigots on the Jack Thompson story) because MS shills demand that they be right and hunt down any place they don't control to ensure The One True Word Is Heard Across The Land.

  71. Re:It won't matter. by aussie_a · · Score: 0

    I used Ubuntu for 7 months with no Windows XP, ultimately it proved too difficult for me to continue using indefinitely so I went and bought myself a copy of Windows XP (just in time as well to get an OEM version). If I, a Computer Science student, prefer Windows to Linux, I don't think your average Joe stands much chance at being converted.

  72. Ballmer not, Gates hot by master_p · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ballmer seems a very uninspiring person, especially for the position of Microsoft CEO. I long for the days where Gates was the CEO...his geeky looks played well with the idea that Microsoft creates technology. Ballmer looks like a used cars salesman.

  73. Hah! He said "chair"... by mangu · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is what Rob Weir has proposed (he's an ODF chair).

    Then the first thing Ballmer will do is to throw him out.


    When will you guys learn not to mention the word "chair" in a discussion involving Microsoft?

  74. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by mckinleyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Disclaimer: I'm new here!

    Why, precisely does it matter as whom he posts? Even if all these accounts are, as is apparently the consensus, belonging to twitter, shouldn't you be rebutting his POINTS instead of his name? You spend two and a half paragraphs attacking his accounts, and half of one line giving a statement that says, in essense "oh, yeah, and your argument doesn't make sense either." Sounds like an ad hominem to me.

    If I were someone coming in without an opinion, I would see someone making a statement backed up by data, as much as you may contest its validity, followed immediately by an unprovoked attack on the person who made the statement.

    Like I said, I'm new here. Care to tell me why, exactly, you choose to respond against the man instead of against his data?

  75. A: There's no reason anymore not to drop MS Office by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A: No, because companies are already so deep with old .xls files and macros built for said files that they will still be unwilling to transition from Microsoft Office to StarOffice.

    Actually StarOffice and OpenOffice have always had better support for legacy formats, including those legacy formats from MS. Now both have VBA support as mentioned in other posts here. And now that MS has dropped support from its old formats, it's not a question of if businesses are going to drop MS Office, but only a matter of when... unless they get the fishook called SharePoint in their gullet. If you have old MS documents, rely on those old MS documents and you can't keep old versions of MS Office or extend the 'rental period', then you have to switch suites to one that can read the old formats.

    A further advantage of StarOffice/ OpenOffice is that macros can be written in python or javascript. That means you can have your macro programmers with a comp sci background. And you can have them participate in web development and other projects. You are at the same time then less likely to hire MS boosters who will run their little MS anti-technology jihadz against you from inside your own office, work is so much easier without them around. You get programmers that can participate in more than one area.

    So it kills two birds (or three) with one stone. Both javascript and python are used in web development and XML tools handle OpenOffice's main format, the OpenDocument Format, there is much less overhead in integrating document management and web apps and less need for disparate skill sets. Win-win situation.

    Further, in addition to all of the above advantages, you then gain a position where you can change platforms or maintenance contract at will.

    There's no reason not to drop MS Office any more.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  76. Microsoft's converter by overshoot · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Microsoft has already supported a ODF extension for Office 2007. Full import and export, and also a command-line batch converter. It's a SourceForge project with a very liberal license (search for odf-converter). Microsoft didn't develop it directly but sponsored (paid for) the development, and assisted with the OOXML side of things.
    We've heard of it, and apparently unlike you know that it's a very partial conversion with stunningly bad performance.

    Not useful.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  77. OOXML Delay is a Positive by chasd · · Score: 1

    Delaying support for ISO 295000 until the next full Office release allows Microsoft to incorporate refinements made by the ISO committee in charge of maintaining that standard. If that committee gets in gear it could shave many rough edges off ISO 295000 before the reference implementation is finalized.

    --
    :wq
  78. FUD by MickDownUnder · · Score: 2, Informative

    This isn't new. The plugin has been available from....

    http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/

    for quite some time...

    Note the contributors...

    http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/#contributors

    Whilst Microsoft has funded this project, it was not directly developed by microsoft, it has been developed by independent developers, as it is open source, anyone can inspect the code, including you.

    There has been so much disinformation about the whole OOXML/ODF its really been quite impressive.

    1. Re:FUD by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Which, if they include that plugin as-is and keep it open source, that's awesome on Microsoft's part.

      I'm not passing judgement here. I'm simply predicting their course of action based on past history.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  79. Bad for Open Office? by assertation · · Score: 1

    This move could have unexpected results. I think MS Word will always be prominent, even with competition opened up a lot more. Open Office has improved a lot over the years, but they can't seem to let go of decisions that keep OO big/clunky/slow/etc - without tweaking. I use OO at home on my Ubuntu box because it is the best thing on Linux for dealing with MS Office documents. Soon, that will no longer be true with MS deciding to support ODF. OO users like me may start dropping OO for koffice, "gnome office" and other alternative office software they previously stayed away from because of the MS interoperability issue.

  80. OT: Your sig by mdielmann · · Score: 1

    He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room. Yes, but that's because monkeys have more taste.
    --
    Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  81. Re:can't create reality with your keyboard, twitte by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    I have to agree. I've been around Slashdot for a while, and I've seen some posts by twitter, and while he seems a little "off", lots of people on Slashdot are "off". I don't really see why there's so much hate reserved for him. Usually, when people post stupid stuff, it's just ignored and/or modded down, and that takes care of it.