US Court Disconnects Canadian Domain Name Scammers

coondoggie writes "A US District Court today ordered a halt to the illegal practice of Canadian companies who the Federal Trade Commission said deceptively posed as domain name registrars and sent bogus bills to thousands of US small businesses and nonprofit organizations for their annual 'Website Address Listing.' The FTC said many of the businesses believed they would lose their Web site addresses unless they paid the bill, so they paid but in most cases the defendants did not provide domain registration services, did not provide the 'search optimization' services it claimed to provide, and bilked small businesses and nonprofits out of millions of dollars."

Comments

When will they ever learn?

[Computershack]

"A US District Court today ordered a halt to the illegal practice of Canadian companies" Because a US court has jurisdiction in Canada doesn't it? Oh that's right, no it doesn't. So yet again another completely meaningless judgement which has no effect outside of the room it was made in.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[matazar]

They apparently see things differently.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[despe666]

The article does specify they ordered their US held assets frozen. However, if they're smart, they wouldn't have that much assets held in the US.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two issues here. The US still controls the DNS servers, and Canada is part of NAFTA which forces them to comply with certain trade restrictions. Canadian courts could theoretically block this ruling and override the DNS change, but there is about a 0% chance of that happening. What is likely is that the US courts operated faster than the Canadian courts with this issue. I expect to see the Canadian courts charging these people with fraud in the next couple of months.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Tanman]

The US Court sure the hell has jurisdiction in the US, where the crimes took place.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[GuyverDH]

Not when the perps never entered or stepped foot on US soil.

Now, if the owners of said company ever decide to vacation in the good ole U.S. of A, then watch out...

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Tanman]

Except that the US Government regulates interstate and international trade within the borders of the USA. So, an international mail fraud that takes place inside the USA (US businesses received fraudulent letters and withdrew money from their US banks to pay in US currency), the government will enforce as much of its law as possible. It will also probably attempt to have the perps in Canada extradited to be tried in the USA for fraud/etc.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[orielbean]

That only applies where we do not have any agreements or treaties for extradition with the other countries.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[davetd02]

Au contraire. If the Canadian companies are scamming US companies by using the US postal service, you can bet that the court has jurisdiction to order them to stop.

If they don't stop, they will be in contempt. Any assets that ever enter the US can be seized. And I suspect that Canada would be more than happy to enforce the contempt judgment.

Because the targets of the scam are in the US and the US mail is being used, the court has all the jurisdiction it needs. To check this, see the Supreme Court's decision in Asahi Metal Industries Co. (1987), holding that a foreign product manufacturer could be dragged into US court if it foresaw that its products would be used in the US. This case is even stronger -- the Canadian scammers intended their scam to reach the US.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[sherpajohn]

..and if folks RTFA there is mention of all sorts of Canadian government and police agencies being involved in this already.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[neoform]

This is where extradition comes in.

If the US asks for the Canadian gov to hand over the criminals and the Canadian gov agrees that they are in fact criminals, then they'll get shipped off and charged in the US for breaking US law.

The same can happen in reverse.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[GuyverDH]

That's if the Canadian legal system agrees that they are criminals...

If for whatever reason, they determine that preying on stupidity isn't a crime, then a disagreement may ensue.

I'm not stating that's what will happen, just putting it out there.

I know there have been disagreements before as to what constitutes a crime, depending on where you are at, where the action took place, and whether or not the action was physical or virtual.

If I place an advertisement in a magazine, and say "Send $5.00, and SASE to xyz address" with nothing else in it, then whatever money comes my way, is mine. Granted, there are moral, and potential mail fraud issues involved if someone thinks that something is due them for their $5.00. All I have to do is mail back there SASE with a "Thank you" note, and I'm covered.

What this company did is clearly illegal, intent to defraud, etc...

What I proposed was not - yet someone, somewhere will claim they are kindred if not the same.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they may be aware that they are meaningless, and just do this to amuse themselves.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[muellerr1]

This sort of mail fraud, along with spam, should be a capital crime. Unfortunately, that would mean that Canada would never agree to extradite them. Decisions, decisions.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[supervillainsf]

While the headline is a bit erroneous, if you bothered to RTFA you might actually understand what is going on here. But since you obviously just like posting crap, I will help you out with some important tidbits.

...consists of the FTC, the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, Competition Bureau Canada, the Toronto Police Service - Fraud Squad, the Ontario Ministry of Government Services, the Ontario Provincial Police - Anti-Rackets, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the United Kingdom's Office of Fair Trading.

A federal district court judge in Chicago, Robert M. Dow, Jr., ordered a halt to the deceptive claims and froze the defendants' assets held in the United States, pending trial.

The Commission files a complaint when it has "reason to believe" that the law has been or is being violated, and it appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. The complaint is not a finding or ruling that the defendant has actually violated the law. The case will be decided by the court.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[macdaddy]

That's if the Canadian legal system agrees that they are criminals... If for whatever reason, they determine that preying on stupidity isn't a crime, then a disagreement may ensue.

If this happens then prosecution can go back to the US courts can go after the assets of the foreign entity that happen to exist in the US. So if this company happens to use Bank of America for their banking service then their BoA funds can be seized. If they used PayPal for collecting the extortion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H payments then the can seize the contents of the PayPal accounts.

In addition to that if they can get US indictments against the individual players within the bogus Canadian company then they can be identified as they enter or pass through the US and can be arrested there.

There are a number of ways that US courts can influence the foreign entities, even if Canada disagrees. I don't think Canada will disagree though.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[TheMCP]

Where are the DNS root servers?

Hint: That's the country where the courts have the final say.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[macdaddy]

I finished RTFA after I posted my message.

The defendants named in the FTC complaint are Data Business Solutions Inc., also doing business as Internet Listing Service Corp., ILS Corp., ILSCORP.NET, Domain Listing Service Corp., DLS Corp., and DLSCORP.NET, and its principals, Ari Balabanian, Isaac Benlolo and Kirk Mulveney.

The case listed 3 principals by name so they should be able to be held liable for the judgement in the scenarios I outlines above.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

The used the mail service of the United States and as such personally availed themselves to the laws and jurisdiction of the United States. If there are any domestic assets to be seized, this ruling can be used.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[uncqual]

The U.S. could just make the minimum sentence life imprisonment in general population. A fellow inmate whose grandparents or parents were scammed by spammers or fraudsters would probably take care of the problem within a few months.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Dan Posluns]

I don't know if they would get extradited... but even if they are convicted in the U.S. and given time they can still serve it up in Canada instead of here.

(As a Canadian living in the U.S. I like to keep abreast of these matters in case I should ever snap and kill and bunch of people.)

Dan.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Socguy]

Hopefully. Fraud is fraud no matter where it originates. With the internet providing the con-artists faster and a wider range of underhanded opportunities, our two countries need to coordinate an efficient attack on this type of behaviour. Hopefully, the police and the courts up here will toss these criminals behind bars where they belong.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mondays, eh?

Re:When will they ever learn?

[magarity]

What is likely is that the US courts operated faster than the Canadian courts with this issue
 
The Canadian courts need do nothing; by a runaway margin most slashdotters think the rulings of US courts should apply to everyone in the whole world.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[agallagh42]

As a Canadian, I volunteer to round them up, place them in burlap sacks, and drive them down. I'll meet you at the Niagara Falls border crossing.

What happens to them after is up to you.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Tony Hoyle]

I wonder if these people are behind the 'Domain Registry of America' scam letters that we get in the UK, with the OFT being involved.

Turns out the original ones were from canada too.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/06/court_bars_canadian_domain_slammer/

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Canadian government agrees they are criminals - that is, if they objectively committed a crime under Canadian law -, why shouldn't or wouldn't they be tried in Canada instead?

(Also, no, the same thing cannot happen in reverse. The USA - quite rightly - never extradite any of their citizens, not even to Canada.)

Re:When will they ever learn?

[russotto]

As a Canadian, I volunteer to round them up, place them in burlap sacks, and drive them down. I'll meet you at the Niagara Falls border crossing.

Just drop them over the falls; I'll catch them at the bottom.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I think that the fraud charge is unlikely to hold if the people behind this actually defended themselves (or had themselves defended by a lawyer) and were at least a bit clever and actually sold some service. I'd assume that this is the same kind of fraud that's been going on for ages with "registration" bills for some knockoff "yellow pages" business directories. The people who send those fake bills actually end up printing and selling a directory which is essentially worthless because nobody buys it (since the "real" yellow pages are free), and the only businesses in there are those that were neglegient enough to pay the "bills". In this case, It's even cheaper, if they have a website where they "register" domains and attach some keywords to links to the domains of those who payed, that may be enough to fulfill their side of the contract. It may still be a case of missleading advertising, but fraud only if the perpetrators were also idiots.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[The Yuckinator]

NAFTA clearly isn't worth the paper it's written on.

See: Softwood Lumber

the US doesn't get to play Nafta victim when they've been screwing us and fighting it for years now. Either it applies to all of us or to none of us. You're not supposed to pick and choose what parts you like in a treaty and ignore the rest.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[icegreentea]

That is true. That being said, fraud is fraud anywhere. You have fraudsters based in Canada (I am Canadian btw), who are scamming American companies and then splitting the money into American and Canadian accounts. What the US Courts have done is found these people to be guilty of fraud (I'm finding it hard to argue against their logic. You have a group charging for a service that they are not providing. No matter how stupid people have to be to fall for that, its still fraud), and they have frozen their US accounts and assets. The Canadian courts can do whatever they want, but if the Canadian court has any conception of justice (or at least just doing their job properly), then they should freeze the Canadian assets and charge the fraudsters too.

There is quite a bit wrong with Americans trying to impose their rulings on everyone. But that doesn't mean they're always wrong. Nor that every case where our two court systems do something like this is a an outrageous act of Americans trampling over our sovereignty.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

you can generally bet that any court proceedings which are set up against you in a foreign country will always be conducted with a minimum of common sense. The whole system is weighted against the defendant - while the court does not have actual jurisdiction (even if they've decided that they have theoretical jurisdiction), a defendant must choose between losing their de facto immunity from the effect of the court (and waiving the lack of jurisdiction of the court), or not defending the case. You can turn up and fight, in which case you recognise the court and are now in their physical jurisdiction, so you HAVE to win, or you ignore the court and lose by default and have to spend the rest of your life making sure to avoid enforcement of the judgement. The whole system of suing people only tenuously linked to a court is a complete mess, and leads to absurd results like these.

I don't suppose that you can put post directly into the US postal system from inside Canada. Unless it has US postage on it, it's not 'using the us postal service'. To allow any country through which mail passes to have a slice of the criminal liability pie would lead to chaos.

The court CLEARLY doesn't have jurisdiction. Unfortunately it's not up to someone with an objective point of view to decide that.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[davetd02]

The court CLEARLY doesn't have jurisdiction.

No, the US court really does have jurisdiction. Again, read Asahi Metals. The Supreme Court found that US courts had jurisdiction over a Japanese parts manufacturer. The parts manufacturer had never entered the US and had never even directly shipped to the US. It was enough that the parts manufacturer knew that another company was integrating its parts (tire valves) into products that were going to the US (tires).

The same goes for state-to-state conduct. If you intend that an effect be felt in another state, that state has jurisdiction over you even if you never set foot in it. Libel laws are the classic example: If I intend to libel you, a resident of New York, by calling the New York Times and giving them false information then the New York courts have jurisdiction over me even if I've never been to New York.

Here, the scammers clearly knew that their scam was going to the US (they put US labels on the envelopes) and even intended that their scam go to the US.

You can't get around laws by sitting right outside the border and mailing the evidence into the country. If the relevant part of the conduct (false bills being received) happens in a country, then that country has jurisdiction. The only question is whether the scammers get another crack at the justice system when the US asks Canada to enforce the judgment by seizing assets. That depends on Canadian law.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Computershack]

To check this, see the Supreme Court's decision in Asahi Metal Industries Co. (1987), holding that a foreign product manufacturer could be dragged into US court if it foresaw that its products would be used in the US. And just how would they drag them into court?

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Computershack]

The court CLEARLY doesn't have jurisdiction. No, the US court really does have jurisdiction. Again, read Asahi Metals. The Supreme Court found that US courts had jurisdiction over a Japanese parts manufacturer. Only within the borders of the US. Outside of those boarders, it means jack shit.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[davetd02]

Edit -- I'm sorry, in Asahi, the Court went the other way (it wasn't fair to bring that particular manufacturer into a US court), but the general rule still stands that if you know and intend a result in another country then you are liable in that country's courts.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[davetd02]

With a big stick. Namely, if they don't show up then the court will enter a default judgment and seize any assets that can be found in the US. If those aren't enough, the US court will ask the Canadian courts to enforce the default judgment. Most countries have treaties regarding the enforcement of judgments (I don't know if Canada-US do, but I'd assume) and so the Canadian mounties will then start seizing assets in Canada and delivering them to the US embassy.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the one hand I agree, in the grand scheme of things, Might makes less wrong. But never right.

On the other hand, I think that that line of thinking could lose us a lot of allies, which are part of our strength. Do not stand alone against the world, even if you are able. It's inefficient.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, you're right, being crooked and underhanded with treaties is bad strategy that will only bring the US to its knees.

Take, for example, how the Sioux nation taught us all a big lesson along those lines.

No wait, we burned those people for fuel! Now I remember. So bad example on my part. Lets think of another.....hmmmm.....gonna need some help here.....

Seems like crawfishing on deals is working out pretty well for us, for the entirety of our history. I'm sure though that the end is near though, yeah. I'm sure someone is going to rise up and stop us. Think it'll be Canada?

Re:When will they ever learn?

[dissy]

Au contraire. If the Canadian companies are scamming US companies by using the US postal service, you can bet that the court has jurisdiction to order them to stop. Little do we realize, they didn't use the US mail system, they in actuality paid a million canadian children to follow the mail man and they put their bills in afterwards! ;)

Re:When will they ever learn?

[neoform]

Very few Canadians bank with American banks.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

We take a pretty dim view of Spammers and scam artists here in Canada, and considering that according to TFA Canadian agencies helped to go after these fucktards I have a feeling that should extradition be requested it would go through speedily.

Though realistically, we're talking about fraud here, scam artists. It's not like they are media worthy prisoners, I'm sure the USA is just as happy to see them in front of a Canadian judge as a US one.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[janrinok]

While I agree with the sentiment - I do not agree with your logic. If I kill an American or steal from him in my country, it is only punishable under the laws of my country. The US courts have no jurisdiction here. Why should this be any different for the crime being committed by (presumably) Canadian subjects in Canada? What should happen is the information is passed to the Canadian law enforcement agencies and they take action if a crime has been committed under local laws.

I think that we both agree that what is being done is an offence, but I do not believe that the US courts can do anything about it, or at least shouldn't be trying to do so. It is the Canadian justice system that is responsible for awarding an appropriate punishment for the crime in this instance. By assuming responsibility because they host the DNS servers is exactly what many others feared about the US and why many advocate that an international organisation should assume responsibility for control of the servers. Of course, that will start another thread criticising the UN, NATO, the EU or whoever some think might think would be the appropriate body, so I will not suggest it..... Damn, too late!

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Dan541]

I wish they would do the same here in Australia, When I check my PO Box every 18 months there are dozens of scam letters from "Domain Registry of America"

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Douglas Goodall]

Those are the people that are trying to scam on the domains that Microsoft helped set up for the users as part of what I think was called, "Office live". I received a bugus renewal letter for each domain started that way.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Dan541]

They are harvesting Whois data from as many domains as they can. If they are a registrar they can see all the domains that are registered then is just a matter of querying whois servers for potential victims it has nothing to do with who you register with.

The amount of mail I receive from them for domains that have no connection with each other indicates that this is a very large scale operation.

~Dan

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Curtman]

Not when the perps never entered or stepped foot on US soil.

Or sometimes then too

Fucking fascists.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Douglas Goodall]

I didn't know that their operations were wider than Office Live, since that would have been enough business right there. Up to now I thought that Microsoft was vaguely involved with them since their invoices showed up like clockwork for my Office Live domains. It is a shame that the same court systems that persecute students for music theft don't have time enough left over to so something about real thieves. In this case there is actual black and white physical evidence, and bank records also. What more do the authorities need.. I guess we can always hope that they forget to pay their taxes and get taken away for that.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[macdaddy]

I would challenge you to find a Canadian bank that didn't invest that customer's money in the US markets. With a little creativity and some balls a corresponding portion of that investment could be seized. The whole thing is moot though because the Canadian authorities were directly involved in the whole thing. They were partners with the US authorities.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[Dan541]

I'm in Australia and the address they want me to send credit card info to is an address in Sydney.

Re:When will they ever learn?

[sumdumass]

I think you should check the treaties and other international agreements between the countries involved. Often there is a system set up to to exchange cooperation in these matters. Japan in the case we the op was talking about most assuredly has one, so does Canada. It's how we were able to freeze drug assets and so one.

So no, it doesn't mean jack shit. It means what it means unless no agreements are in place which then it could mean jack shit. Remember the Australian guy who was extradited to America for breaking American copyright law? He thought it means jack shit too.

I get these all the time.

[matazar]

The bills do honestly look legit. I always wondered how they were getting away with it.
It would make me laugh though, they offered me their best deal of 4-6x what I am paying my current registrar.

Re:I get these all the time.

[wtfispcloadletter]

I've wondered the same thing. I have to keep reminding myself that most people are not technically competent. They've either had someone else register their domain for them or they did it following a bouncing ball and either don't have a clue or remember who their registrar is let alone what a registrar is.

Heck, most people can't even tell you who their site is hosted with. All they can tell you is who does the updates or show you what buttons they push to update their site.

This is why companies get bilked for all kinds of other tech related supplies and services. These small businesses don't have anyone on staff or that feel they can call to ask a simple 5 minute question.

Re:I get these all the time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I have gotten one of these too in Canada. Actually a client got one about renewing their .ca domain but they only had a .com. I think it was from the Canadian Internet Registrar and looked legit. Checked the registration online and it was good for another 6 months and the cost was also way more. I must say I can see how a small business owner who doesn't know much about how registration works would just think it's legit and pay. Luckily the client contacted me first though because they were going to pay.

Re:I get these all the time.

[agallagh42]

Yup, I got one of these too. They were asking for ~$75 for a one year renewal of a .com domain. I think there was small print stating "this is not an invoice", but otherwise looked quite convincing.

I can see how the uninformed masses could easily fall for it.

Re:I get these all the time.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see how the uninformed masses could easily fall for it.

Stupid tumors

Re:I get these all the time.

[kcdoodle]

Me too.

My domain is named for my DOG.

I even got a bill from a shipyard for fixing my yacht or my DOG's yacht, I dunno. I have never seen either of them.

My dog has had a couple of credit cards sent to him, in his name, pre-approved. Those are very cool novelty items.

If you have had a domain since 1995, then you have seen a lot of scammers and stupidity as well.

Frozen money!

[Anonymous Coward]

A federal district court judge in Chicago, Robert M. Dow, Jr., ordered a halt to the deceptive claims and froze the defendants' assets held in the United States, pending trial. The FTC will seek a permanent halt to the scheme and ask the court to order redress to victimized consumers.

Lesson is? Don't store money in the US if you are (allegedly) committing crimes in the US.

I'm trying to get outraged but the US only affected US assets. Something within its Jurisdiction.

Re:Frozen money!

[GuyverDH]

Well, we ought to be careful here. Depending on which companies were bilked, GWB might decide to go to war with Canada to redress the issue. Weapons of Mass Cash Dispersal and all that.

i've gotten those in the mail

[circletimessquare]

its amazing people actually fall for that bulls***

i really must be in the wrong business. i'm thinking about this whole "business plan" concept wrong. i'm thinking "what do people want and need and how can i give that to them better than the competition"

i should be thinking "how can i prey on stupidity and fear of authority"

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[bsDaemon]

i should be thinking "how can i prey on stupidity and fear of authority" Run for office?

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[steelfood]

That's the easy part. Getting away with it is the hard part. And the part where almost all criminals eventually fail at is being smart enough to stay that way.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[akb]

Actually, given that a profitable amount of people believe they are communicating with Nigerian royalty this scam was pure gold. I mean, they went through the trouble of masquerading as the specific registrar. Too bad (?) they didn't cover their tracks better.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're not thinking about it wrong. You're choosing to think about it ethically. Just like most people choose to have a job to bring home money instead of using a gun to rob their local convenience store.

As for people falling for the "bulls***", despite what some people may think, there are still people out there who are new to the internets and the Google and can't quite wrap their brain around it all.

I know people who, despite numerous attempts to explain, can't figure out why they can access their web-based email from anywhere, but can't access an application installed on their computer in the same manner (don't even get started on the conversation of remote desktop with these people!).

So, when fear mongering "businesses" like the ones in question send a notice to some Mom & Pop store telling them that they'll lose their web site if they don't send the money to renew their domain name, who can blame them for paying up? Especially if, like in many instances, the Mom & Pop store went to a friend of a friend to get the web site built and that friend of a friend did all the domain registration for them.

It's not being stupid. It's being ignorant and those are two completely different things.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[Anonymous Coward]

Time for a new Score title... Score:5 Alarming

or... Score:1 Obvious
or... Score:-1 Unamerican

lol

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[biolysis]

"i should be thinking 'how can i prey on stupidity and fear of authority'"

Blame the Republicans, you accomplish both at once.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[Hoi Polloi]

Work for Fox News or talk radio?

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[petermgreen]

indeed.

Law enforcement only has to get lucky once to put a criminal in prison. The criminal has to get lucky every single time to stay free. Sooner or later a serial criminal is almost certain to screw something up either through complacency or just plain bad luck.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[BlueshiftVFX]

no most of the ones who get away with it are called business men.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[dimeglio]

i should be thinking "how can i prey on stupidity and fear of authority" Bill Gates may also have some pointers for you.

If I was this Toronto company I would get a Canadian judge to reverse the decision, issue an injunction against the FTC to butt out of my business and order payment of damages by the U.S. government for loss of reputation and loss of business. Let get this into the international trade tribunal's hands.

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[vic-traill]

Actually, given that a profitable amount of people believe they are communicating with Nigerian royalty

I don't know of any way of measuring the total value of Nigerian scams, but as noted in the quote, it seems that it is profitable; scammers keep playing the game, so it must be working for them to some extent.

Scambusters says $100 million to $200 million a year http://www.scambusters.org/nigerian-scams.html with no detail on the calculation.

Has anyone ever seen a serious attempt to monetarily quantify Internet-based Nigerian fraud type activity?

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[Wayne247]

Some time ago, we had our corporate website & domain hosted with Bell, it came as a package with our very first DSL.

After a year, we received a fax from some obscure "consulting" company I've never heard of, requesting our immediate payment to them for the renewal of our domain. At the time, I knew about these scams, so I investigated.

As it turns out, after several complicated phone calls, the consulting company had simply been sub-contracted, by the company sub-contracting hosting from Bell, to renew their client's domain.

So yeah, people fall for this crap because the companies doing it are crappy themselves. I mean seriously, they sent me a bill with no reference to my actual client #, my actual supplier's name, nothing? They're lucky I just didn't throw the fax away (and then lost my domain...)

Re:i've gotten those in the mail

[dargaud]

its amazing people actually fall for that bulls*** Well, I'm not. One of my customers who I webmin for received it and I had to read it several times before I even guessed it was a scam: it knew all our DNS info (of course pulled from WHOIS), but also claimed to be our registrar (only the address was different but i wouldn't have known that). What tipped me off was the price.

Watch out for those Canadians!

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll getcha! =)

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[david.emery]

In retribution, the US will start sending unsolicited bills to Canadians for US cultural imperialistic products such as the Swimsuit Edition of SportsIlustrated, etc...

And if that doesn't work, we'll impound your hockey teams :-)

dave

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[rossz]

And if that doesn't work, we'll impound your hockey teams

That could start a war! Canada does have an army, though I think he's in Iraq at the moment.

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[david.emery]

But the question is whether the Canadian Parliament voted him any money to buy ammunition...

dave

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the UN sanctioned war on Afganistan, to fight the evil Taliban? After 9/11? Yeah, we're still there. Someone has to do it, since the US pulled out most of their support to go fight some other war...

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[fyoder]

That could start a war! Canada does have an army, though I think he's in Iraq at the moment. We have a bunch of guys in Afghanistan. I've seen it on the news. The rest of the armed forces have been lost. I don't mean lost as a euphemism for killed, but literally misplaced. Not even wikipedia knows where they are.

Where are the Canadian Armed Forces?

I believe a bunch of them were spotted in Eastern Europe some time ago. If you see them, tell them we miss them and to please come home.

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[Anonymous Coward]

no no no - you have it all wrong!

Canada does have an army - all of it, including
a big hunk of the militia, is in Afghanistan.
Except for the RCAF the New York PD could over
run the whole damn Country! Oh the RCAF is
very low on ammunition.

Re:Watch out for those Canadians!

[Anonymous Coward]

That could start a war! Canada does have an army, though I think he's in Iraq at the moment. She's in Afghanistan actually.

ordered a halt to the illegal practice

[frovingslosh]

ordered a halt to the illegal practice

So basically the courts ordered someone to stop breaking the law? Yea, that's gonna change their whole attitude.

Summary is horrible.

[Anonymous Coward]

First off it wasn't a US action, it was a joint law enforcement effort, Some dips are trying to use an international border to dodge law enforcement and got caught at it.

Second nothings been disconnected, a US judge froze the companies US assets, a Canadian court needs to seize their Canadian assets.

This is not a case of the US trying to impose its laws on Canada again, the bogus domain name companies are committing fraud and thats illegal anywhere you go.

I don't know why this article is even on slashdot, its not news. Canadian and US authorities cooperated to catch a crook who tired to use the border to avoid getting caught. Happens all the time.

Re:Summary is horrible.

[digitrev]

This is on /. because it's a tech issue, namely domain names. But otherwise, yeah, you're right, this is a non-issue.

So...

[furrydave]

I got an email about buying real estate on the moon. Had I bought it, at least I could rest easy knowing I wasn't a moron and it was in fact the person sending it who was at fault... I've also won a MILLION DOLLARS from readers digest... And they got millions?? really!? But the US has no power in Canada... How could this order make a difference? Actually, strike that last part. I'm fairly certain the US controls Canada :-). Harper would love that...

The stupidity tax really bites hard

[damburger]

Especially if you send money to random people who ask for it without checking who they are first.

Re:The stupidity tax really bites hard

[mpe]

Especially if you send money to random people who ask for it without checking who they are first.

Especially given that sending out bogus invoices is a very old scam. But apparently one which still gets enough money to make doing it worthwhile.

dollars

[dword]

bilked small businesses and nonprofits out of millions of dollars

Why bother? It's probably Canadian just dollars...

Re:dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

...which are worth about the same as US dollars, more or less.

Re:dollars

[navygeek]

Don't get too cocky. Not too long ago the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US dollar. Currently, it's only behind the USD by $0.017 - i.e. damn near equal.

Re:dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

Stereotypical American ignorance...

Re:dollars

[m.ducharme]

Whooooooosh.....

Re:dollars

[jcgf]

Yeah, he won't have his nose in the air when their economy collapses and we see 1USD = 0.073CAD.

When it happens, I am going to head down to Minneapolis, find some hookers and then pay them to fight some other hookers I picked up in Tijuana. Be able to do it all for about 12 CAD if I budget. Maybe more if the Tijuana hookers can't be revived (I had them in that freezer for quite some time and I'm not as experienced with Cryogenics as I would like - no I did not just use a deep-freeze; I know THAT doesn't work).

Re:dollars

[keeboo]

Yeah, he won't have his nose in the air when their economy collapses and we see 1USD = 0.073CAD.
When it happens, I am going to head down to Minneapolis, find some hookers and then pay them to fight some other hookers I picked up in Tijuana.

Really? Look at this then.
Over 80% of canadian exports go to the US.
How do you think canadian economy will be if US collapses?

Meanwhile <16% of what is exported from Brazil goes to the US, as you can see here.

I guess it's more likely that brazilians would be paying cheap canadian hookers.

Re:dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

Another canadian that never figured out the US owns his a$$.

Stupidity tax rewards evil

[spun]

The thing about the "stupidity tax" as so many call it is not that it harms the stupid, it is that it rewards the corrupt.

You can laugh at the people who fall for things like this and pat yourself on the back all you like, but it is wrong. It isn't helping society. It isn't weeding out the weak and stupid. It is rewarding evil.

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[damburger]

Helping society? Contrary to popular belief there are worse things in the world then some people taking money of the middle class. They aren't taking food out of the mouths of the starving or water from the thirsty. Get some perspective.

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[delysid-x]

I wish those starving would starve to death already, I'm sick of seeing bloated African children on daytime TV. Oh wait, am I supposed to care?

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you're assessment of what's good and what's bad is that, if there are worse things, then it's good?

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[spun]

Yes, you are supposed to care. If you don't, it indicates a major subsystem of your brain is missing (you're a psychopath) or damaged (you're like most people.) Our brain has mirror circuits that let us run simulations of other sentient beings, which tie in to empathy circuits that let us feel what others are feeling. If you can witness suffering without feeling anything, there is something wrong with these circuits. As they are highly advantageous, both for the individual, and for the species as a whole, you might want to get that looked into.

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[spun]

You miss the point. It isn't who these people are hurting, it is what they are being rewarded for. Rewarding behavior that hurts others is never a good idea, no matter how minor the harm.

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[jcgf]

I think that it just indicates that he knows "Christian Children Fund" etc just keeps the money to themselves.

I am suspicious that they take your money and then eat the bloated African children. Remember those licorice candies called "Nigger Babies"? Well they aren't really made from licorice!

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[AllIGotWasThisNick]

Rewarding behavior that hurts others is never a good idea, no matter how minor the harm. You don't find a moral judgement such as yours to be somewhat subjective, and in your particular phrasing, far too broadly applied? You may be interested in Moral Development, specifically Kohlberg's Post-Conventional stages. I do agree that deliberately victimizing the weak is a poor design for maintaining a society.

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[spun]

People using the more developed stages of moral reasoning do not need my advice. People using the earlier stages do not handle ambiguity and relativism well. So, I could say something that is perhaps useful to a majority of people and risk alienating the more developed, or speak to people perfectly capable of making their own moral decisions, and risk confusing most people. In the end, people using the higher levels of moral reasoning don't care about punishment or reward anyway.

What would you have me do? You yourself admit my statement is a pretty close fit, would it be that much better if I added three more paragraphs of clarifications? Sure, sometimes it is not only okay to hurt other, but actually works to the greater good. Should I list all the situations where that is true?

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[AllIGotWasThisNick]

deliberately victimizing the weak is a poor design for maintaining a society is not even remotely a good fit for

rewarding behavior that hurts others is never a good idea One suggests that (eg) Laws have been instituted for the purpose of encouraging victimization. I read your version as "only mutually positive outcomes are morally acceptable", which you seem to be advocating (now exclusively) for those "less developed".

People using the more developed stages of moral reasoning do not need my advice. Fair enough. But what makes your advice more "valid" than the level of moral development of someone who believes that stupid people need to be responsible for their own choices? This is simple the Liberal/Conservative dichotomy rephrased: do we need to protect people from themselves? does potential (group) harm outweigh actual (individual) benefit?

Re:Stupidity tax rewards evil

[spun]

Do you not understand that the reference you gave discusses levels of moral reasoning? You brought the theory up.

Stupid people need to be responsible for their own choices, as do smart people who make stupid mistakes. However, allowing victimization to occur is a negative externality for everyone. It allows the most callous to accumulate financial power, which they may turn against our freedoms.

Therefore, it makes sense to spend resources to punish those who do it. It also makes sense to educate people in how to resist being taken advantage of. It is not advantageous to dismiss the situation as social Darwinism at work.

It isn't really a liberal or conservative issue. I think we can all embrace education in critical thinking and not letting crime pay.

Network Solutions

[N8F8]

Network solutions sends out bogus bill-looking mail too to registrants.

Re:Network Solutions

[XHIIHIIHX]

I agree, it just as much of a scam as the one I got from canada.

Great News!

[Random Guru 42]

Now if only the Canadian government would do the same thing up here.

Canadian Companies

[whisper_jeff]

I haven't read the article, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "Canadian companies" is used loosely since it's illegal to charge for a service and not provide it, even in the frozen, barbaric north. I suspect "Canadian companies" is being used rather than "illegal scammers that happen to operate out of Canada." Then again, I didn't read the article so...

Re:Canadian Companies

[nytmare]

Although the article implies the scammers live in Toronto Canada, I have to wonder how many "Canadian" scammers like this are actually US residents borrowing a Canadian mailbox.

Re:Canadian Companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Shockingly, it's possible to be an illegal scammer and a Canadian company at the same time.

illegal?

[deander2]

heh, these guys send me a couple of their "re-registration" notices every year around that time. slimy, but illegal? how are they any different from the "renew you automobile warranty" letters i still get every few months?

Re:illegal?

[Zorque]

They're probably not any different, but that doesn't make them legal. Charging people for a service you don't provide is, the last time I checked, fraud.

An oldie but goodie

[Happy Lemming]

Long ago, we used to get official-looking bills for listings in a worldwide Telex directory, for several hundred dollars a year. They were mailed from somewhere in Europe, I think, but the bills that reached us went straight into the bin. Looks like the scam has been updated.

Good scam.

[delysid-x]

Props to the perps. Go Canada!

Try running a business

[Solandri]

Especially if you send money to random people who ask for it without checking who they are first.

That works fine if you're paying your dozen monthly personal bills sent to your home. It's totally different if you're running a business. If you're lucky, you only have 50 monthly bills. More likely you have 100-200. Many vendors are used sporadically so their bills will be unfamiliar. And the person paying the bills wasn't involved in purchasing from the vendor so even the vendor name may be unfamiliar.

It's the reason large companies use purchase order systems. But for many small/medium businesses the extra overhead of purchase orders isn't worth it, and so they become vulnerable to this type of scam.

Re:Try running a business

[ozbird]

That works fine if you're paying your dozen monthly personal bills sent to your home.

I don't pay mine - problem sol
NO CARRIER

Let's take a look at www.daxpub.com

[Anonymous Coward]

"DAX Publications" appears to be a Buffalo NY company, but the domain registration suggests otherwise:

Registrant:
namesbeyond.com
      Private Private
      4141 Yonge Street, Suite 204,Toronto, ON M2P
2A8
      Toronto, Canada ON M2P 2A8
      United States
      Phone:+1.8773211356

This is some type of "Directory listing service". At my past job, they sent a bill for such things as "website hosting fees", etc.

How popular is this service? Let's ask Google!, try this:

daxpub.com -site:daxpub.com -site:daxadmin.com

How many hits? 8!!!! There are a whopping 8 links in all of Google that reference DAX Publications from the outside! There must be DOZENS of people who would know enough to find my business via daxpub.com!!!

For added fun:

1. Check their online directory to see if your company is listed
2. If so, check your accounts payable to see if an invoice was paid
3. If so, investigate and draw your own conclusions
4. Profit!!!

Re:Let's take a look at www.daxpub.com

[Toll_Free]

DAX publications is actually a yellow pages publisher in some parts of the US of A.

Might not be the same people, just sayin....

--Toll_Free

Now only if they can be stopped in Canada

[blumpy]

These's guys have doing this for a long time...

The problem is enough people fall for this to make it profitable for them... basically like spam.

When I was working in webhosting, I don't know how different customers would call us asking about these "invoices" and if they should pay them or not... or asking why they have to pay us since they already paid them.... probably hundreds.

It always annoyed me how they could get away with it...

Domain Registry of Canada

[FriendSite.com]

So I wonder if the Domain Registry of Canada gets their just dessert as well? They sent out a request, looking like an invoice, to my sister who runs a site, she just paid up as she assumed (wrongly and naively of course!), that it was from her current registrar. As a holder of 40-50 domains, I'm inundated from the Domain Registry of Canada (oh such an official sound title as well eh!), I think I'll before forwarding their details on to the FTC as well.

Whilst you can argue that someone should be more careful, thats like arguing that someone who leaves the car in a car park and has it broken into should be more careful - at the end of the day, exactly WHO is in the wrong here, the person who's naive, or the person who commits the crime?

Same old scam

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the 80's there was a scam where a company would send bills for the phone directory and used the "walking fingers" logo which was never trademarked. People thought this came from the one and only phone company and paid it. The directory (if it was ever printed)was not the "official" one. (Back then there was only one phone book. it was either just before or just after the breakup of AT&T.)

Too busy for that...

[stephdau]

Dudes, c'mon, our law enforcement officers and law makers are way too busy with important things such as a bribe-sponsored copyright reform to worry about such pesky things... :p

So what's your point?

[biolysis]

I mean, apart from you being a pedantic ass that picks fights about points which are both well understood and not at issue?

However, if that WAS your point, I apologize, you did a good job of making it.

"If I place an advertisement in a magazine, and say "Send $5.00, and SASE to xyz address" with nothing else in it, then whatever money comes my way, is mine."

FANTASTIC! and completely unrelated to this story, as that isn't what happened.

Re:So what's your point?

[GuyverDH]

Thank you for the personal attack, whoever you are, I really couldn't care less what your opinions are as you have to respect someone for their opinions to matter.

I was mentioning the fact that there could be a disagreement over whether or not a law had been broken, and whether or not the people behind it would be considered criminals by another government, and/or to what extent they would be.

By showing something of a lesser degree, yet morally/ethically corrupt form, my intent was to show that differences in opinion would be made over whether or not the person doing it would be considered a criminal.

In some countries, doing something like that would potentially get you classified as a criminal, while in others, people would scoff at the people who did what you asked.

Different countries have different beliefs, laws, community standards, which will change your point of view and what you base your moral, ethical, legal definitions off of.

So while technically, my statement was not directly related to the discussion of the criminal acts described, it was in fact related as it showed something that depending on your legal basis, could be classified in the same category as these crimes which goes on to show my point that just because some Judge in the US declared that an act was illegal based on US laws, that doesn't mean that another country will concur.

I'm not saying that Canada won't, as it obviously has, in cooperating with the investigation, I'm just saying that you cannot take it for granted that what one country deems illegal, another will as well.

What would happen if a country, or worse yet, a religious order, were to try to enforce their legal/religous views on everyone else?

Re:So what's your point?

[GuyverDH]

Oh, and I decided to look up your comment history, and I'm not sure who was calling the kettle black here, as most of your comments were of the troll variety in my opinion, which does matter, to me at least...

Re:So what's your point?

[biolysis]

"Thank you for the personal attack, whoever you are"

You earned it.

"I really couldn't care less what your opinions are"

And yet you responded. Actions speak louder that your typed up lies.

"I was mentioning the fact that there could be a disagreement over whether or not a law had been broken"

And your point was pedantic and meaningless. Restating doesn't change that, listing your reasoning doesn't change that, NOTHING you do changes that.

You replied because you thought my "personal attack" had merit, and in so replying you did nothing more that reinforce what I said and prove me right.

This is yet another reason why I lie on whois

[Fear the Clam]

Yeah, I 'know I'm a bad, bad man for providing false information, but as far as I'm concerned, providing fake contact info is just another way to avoid this bullshit.

Yes, I know that I could pay extra to hide my domain info, but I refuse to do so. If ICANN requires me to post real information, they can fucking well require the registrar to hide that info for free. In the meanwhile, I'll keep lying, and if the feds really really care about tracking me down, they can do so with the credit card that I use to pay my web hosting service.

Suck it ICANN, suck it spammers, and suck it eternal September.

Shouldn't that be insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny? I was thinking parent post should be moderated "insightful."

Especially after I read that article about McCain criticizing Obama for having a "September 10th" mindset...

Re:Shouldn't that be insightful?

[bsDaemon]

I was +5 insightful for a while, which I thought was funny because I said it as a joke - although I'm affraid that it's all too true.

Sad thing is, they don't even have to try as hard anymore as they used to. TV makes it too easy. Goebbels had some skills; Hannity et all are just a sworm of lowest-common-denominator shills. "Propagandist" is too good of a word for those hacks.

It has nothing to do with the Canadians, initially

[Toll_Free]

This type of case usually is prosecuted this way. Even if the Canadian's wouldn't have helped, we still would have prosecuted them in the US of A.

Reasoning? Simple. They have assets here :)

The judgment against them means not only can we seize their assets, but we can get rid of them with the guilty verdicts, if I remember correctly. Otherwise, the "seizing the assets" thing we all hear so much about means little more than we are depriving them of the assets, but not disposing of them. Having a criminal judgment means we off them to the highest bidder (usually, our government holds auctions to dispose of this type of stuff, unless it holds onto it for it's own reasons).

--Toll_Free

Raises a question.

[camperdave]

If the US asks for the Canadian gov to hand over the criminals and the Canadian gov agrees that they are in fact criminals, then they'll get shipped off and charged in the US for breaking US law.

The same can happen in reverse.

Hmm... So in order to face a trial to determine whether they are guilty of the crime, under a system that presumes that they are innocent of the crime, they have to be declared guilty of the crime? How the blazes does that work? The court decides your guilt/non-guilt in your absence, then hauls you across the border for sentencing? Innocent until proven guilty... unless you're out of the country?

PROSECUTION: "Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury: Despite all the elaborate 'evidence' that my learned opponent has produced; the videotapes, the expert testimonies, the airtight alibi, the fact that the deceased was found alone inside a locked room with a smouldering gun in one hand and a suicide note in the other... Despite all of these things, I can prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the defendant is guilty of this crime. You see, he was Extradited to face trial."

There is much noise and gasps from the gallery, the judge pounds his gavel loudly.

JUDGE: "ORDER! ORDER IN THE COURT. ORDER!... Proceed."

PROSECUTION: "Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, he was extradited. Our neighbors on the other side of the border would not have allowed him to face trial if he was not guilty. Therefore, he must be guilty. I rest my case."

Re:Raises a question.

[sumdumass]

Hmm... So in order to face a trial to determine whether they are guilty of the crime, under a system that presumes that they are innocent of the crime, they have to be declared guilty of the crime? How the blazes does that work? The court decides your guilt/non-guilt in your absence, then hauls you across the border for sentencing? Innocent until proven guilty... unless you're out of the country?

It doesn't work that way. You see, they aren't determining guilt when determining to send you off to the other country, they are determining if the crime you are accused of is a crime and if there is reasonable evidence to charge you. If that is true, then off you go. If it isn't, the home you stay. And when the offense is a capitol one (death penalty could be given), the other country could try the person themselves and make him subject to their own laws to avoid overly harsh punishment and the death penalty.

So no, it isn't to determine guilt, it is to determine a fair and humane treatment of one of their citizens. That's all. It would have no more impact then a person arrested in VA and taken to Florida or Texas for trial.

Bogus bills not isolated to internet stuff...

[PhotoGuy]

When I had a large-ish company (75+ employees), it was fairly common to receive bills for things that we didn't order/subscribe-to. There are likely a number of companies whose accounts payable departments simply pay any bill coming in, without cross-referencing it to a purchase order. This is no different, really. (And even many semi-legit services, magazines, and so forth, would simply send an overdue bill, rather than a subscription renewal notice. I was always more surprised at some big names that would pull that somewhat deceptive practice...)

(Is it just me, or does "ordering a halt to an illegal practice" sound kinda stupid? Seizing US assets, extradition, and so forth, fine. Go for it. But "stop doing that illegal stuff!" doesn't sound that useful. :)

Re:Bogus bills not isolated to internet stuff...

[Anonymous Coward]

Large-ish company is 75+ employees? *boggle* Which third world country are you from?

Ironic

[thered2001]

Just got a 'bill' from Internet Corporation Listing Service today. Their address is in NY, though. An AP clerk might be fooled into paying this. It sure *looks* official.

What about DROA Domain Registry of America

[mabu]

The biggest scam artist I've seen is the Domain Registry of America - they send out snail mail letters with impressive looking American flag logos on them with a bogus invoice-looking form to renew domains, but it's really the Internet version of slamming the domain and switching registrars. DROA needs to be shut down.

Re:What about DROA Domain Registry of America

[gemada]

The biggest scam artist I've seen is the Domain Registry of America - they send out snail mail letters with impressive looking American flag logos on them with a bogus invoice-looking form to renew domains, but it's really the Internet version of slamming the domain and switching registrars. DROA needs to be shut down. they seem to have a Canadian branch called DROC - Domain Registry of Canada - that pulls the same scam. i have seen clients receive these fake bills as far back as 2001.

Re:What about DROA Domain Registry of America

[I'm not really here]

Yeah, I agree. I've received regular mailings from them in spite of repeated phone calls and emails instructing them to cease and desist... why can't we have a CAN SPAM act for physical mail? (Or at least be able to put together "blacklists" that the Post office should just shred. They still get their money, and I don't see the mail.)

Another kdawson experience

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is on /. because of kdawson. The man has the worst titles and summaries ever available on /. articles. Just look at his track record sometime

An army of one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch out though, he's not just strong, he's army strong... lolololol

Note to spammers / con artist

[WeeBit]

Get a real job!

P.T.Barnum

[aqk]

Did he ever visit Nigeria?

He seems to have a lot of offspring there.
(And apparently in Canada too)

Liar

[biolysis]

"Oh, and I decided to look up your comment history, and I'm not sure who was calling the kettle black here, as most of your comments were of the troll variety in my opinion, which does matter, to me at least..."

Which speaks volumes considering the mods totally disagree with you, as based on my lack of troll mods vs. insightful/interesting/informative.

Currently 4 insightful/interesting/informative vs ONE troll. I guess your opinion has fuck all to do with reality huh? Or maybe you just can't read?

I guess when you posted you didn't realize you were admitting your opinion about what is a troll is worthless, but you had that effect nonetheless.

Re:Liar

[GuyverDH]

Not really, it just means that most people don't care enough to show how stupid you really are.

Maybe if I decided to follow you around all day every day, as you appear to do for me, and mod you down - mark you troll for anything and everything, you'd show that way to...

All it means is you have no life, no brains and way too much time on your hands.

typical canadian scum

[Anonymous Coward]

kanadians should count the days until God's Chosen, the US of A stampedes tanks over canada, taking America's land back, for canada's treachery in opposing America ( remember Benedict Arnold? ) all those times, from the original war to the Gulf,

and also for not giving America ownership of all the fresh water, now that climate change is taking away America's water.

count the days, canadian scum, they are numbered.