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Wikileaks Gets Hold of Counterinsurgency Manual

HeavensBlade23 writes in to let us know that Wikileaks has published a US Special Forces counterinsurgency manual, titled Foreign Internal Defense Tactics Techniques and Procedures for Special Forces (1994, 2004). "The document, which has been verified, is official US Special Forces doctrine. It directly advocates training paramilitaries, pervasive surveillance, censorship, press control and restrictions on labor unions & political parties. It directly advocates warrantless searches, detainment without charge and the suspension of habeas corpus. It directly advocates bribery, employing terrorists, false flag operations and concealing human rights abuses from journalists. And it directly advocates the extensive use of 'psychological operations' (propaganda) to make these and other 'population & resource control' measures more palatable."

163 of 999 comments (clear)

  1. War is fun! by sir_eccles · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who ever said war was a fun thing?

    1. Re:War is fun! by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Funny
      Who ever said war was a fun thing?

      Jools, Jops and Stoo, for a start. War has never been so much fun!

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:War is fun! by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think it was Dick Cheney. Or George Bush, who in the first moments of the invasion of Iraq treated the attacks like some sports event,

    3. Re:War is fun! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 3, Informative

      Unless it was - you know - either a fake or inaccurately reported.

      Like Bush' supposed "service record" from 73 that turned out to have been made with word 2003.

    4. Re:War is fun! by GodsMadClown · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Our commander in chief said as much in a videoconference with troops in Afghanistan on Mar 13, 2008:
      ( http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1333111120080313 ) ...
      "I must say, I'm a little envious," Bush said. "If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed."

      "It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks," Bush said. ...

      What a shame he's otherwise "employed".

    5. Re:War is fun! by zokum · · Score: 2, Funny

      Kill em with your gun, kill em with your gun! War has never been so much fun! Those were the days - hmm, still is *boots* winuae.

      --
      Rest in peace Malin "looxn" Kristiansen. We miss you...
    6. Re:War is fun! by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Are you stupid or what? Of course war is never something fun. But if you read that manual or only the description of its contents here, its a fucking al-Qaeda manual and if its done no fucking wonder that iraq is a fucking breedingground for terrorist and haters of USA!"

      If you had even a hint of intelligence, you would have known that iraq and the middle east has been a breeding ground for terrorists many years before the united states was involved.

    7. Re:War is fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you mean 'like it was in 1914 and 1939'? As in when the world wars started as opposed to when the US decided to join in?

    8. Re:War is fun! by AioKits · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "War is delightful to those who have not experienced it."
      -Erasmus

      --
      "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    9. Re:War is fun! by Scratch-O-Matic · · Score: 4, Informative

      This document was signed in 1994. Thanks for playing.

      --


      Evil is the money of root.
    10. Re:War is fun! by baldass_newbie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My first reaction was, "So, someone else has just learned the level of contempt the Executive branch has for us all; and I do mean All." Chainey, Bush, and McCain are really, really trying hard to make this Conservative Republican to vote Democrat in November.

      While I somehow doubt you are a 'Conservative Republican', you do realize the document was written in 1994? Just like Bush 'faked' the Iraq WMD stuff in 1998, two years before he was elected so Congress would pass the Iraq Liberation Act, now he's being blamed for a 1994 (purported) anti-terrorism manual?
      You libs are too much.
      --
      The opposite of progress is congress
    11. Re:War is fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except Iraq. Which wasn't a breeding ground for terrorists.

    12. Re:War is fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please cite your references, because I'm not sure you're possessed of the "ounce of intelligence" that you're referring to...

      The United States was meddling with internal affairs via the CIA pretty much from WW2 on. They installed and supported the "pro west" Shah of Iran, whose whoring of his country and people lead to the rise of the ayatollah's and the extremist element in that country.

      They then gave Saddam Hussein their support in order that he should stand agains the "New" Iran, and then people from both of those countries got to experience the meat-grinder that is American Foreign Policy in the Middle East. They also didn't seem to care if he oppressed his own people, by whatever means, although after decades of his abuses, they then supported a Kurdish insurgency, but cut-off support to them just in time to let Saddam obliterate them.

      Later they sent money, guns and tactical support to the Afghan rebels in order to help them overthrown the Russians, but then cut them loose to "wither on the vine" once the Russians left.

      The Americans support repressive regimes in Kuwait, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. They also supported Isreal against Palistinians who've become the Middle-Eastern gypsies as a result.

      This is the record of American influence in this region, as ever with Americans, it's a story of doing whatever it takes to advance their interests, without thought, care or regard for how much it'll fuck-up anyone else... That's the basis for the resentment, anger and hatred the people of these regions have for Americans, and that's the environment that's "breeding terrorists". So please, PLEASE cite your references that this area was a Terrorist Breeding-ground "before America got involved"!

      -AC

      PS: I'm an atheist, and Canadian. I am NOT an Islamo-fascist, and I have no particular sympathies for any of the peoples I've described. I have no hidden agenda. I'm simply pointing out that a LOT of the troubles America is experiencing in the world right now can be seen as karmic chickens coming home to roost.

      PPS: Weird confluence: my captcha is "killings"...

    13. Re:War is fun! by es330td · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Last time I checked, McCain is a member of the legislative, not executive, branch of the US Government.

    14. Re:War is fun! by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who ever said war was a fun thing? amen.
      The ludicous screed that heads the article might be considered a parody of itself. The manual that then follows is no worse than say Machievelli's "The Prince". or more apropos Sun Tzu "the art of war".

      Armies are SUpposed to plan and supposed to control populations effectively, ideally inflicting the the least damage possible. Like Jujitsu, it's about knowing the pressure points to move the whole body.

      Fuck, it's their freakin' job.

      Folks it's not immoral to plan for war. it may be immoral to go to war, but in the USA that's a civil sector choice not a military choice.

      On a similar tack. I't not immoral to equip our soldiers with the best weapons possible. If the Country decides through its political leadership to put soldiers in harms way then they should be equipt to be as effective as they possibly can. The immorailty of war comes when politicians send us to war or waste our treasure on unneccessary weapons.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    15. Re:War is fun! by Kohath · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think the key is to play it in "Normal" mode. "Easy" mode is too easy and "Hard" mode can get frustrating. Normal mode is the most fun. Save the "Hard" mode for after you win it in "Normal" mode.

    16. Re:War is fun! by Elldallan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      War is ugly ... but freedom is worth it. It is worth it now, like it was in 1916 and 1942. The problem is that to the local populace all the United States and allies did was replace "Oppressive Bad Guy 1" with "Oppressive so called democatic puppet regime of Democracy 1"
      The local populace are still oppressed, they are still murdered and humiliated by various local and nonlocal groups including Al Qaeda and US armed forces.
      So for whom is this so called freedom worth the price?
      The difference between the current situation and the WW's are that in the WW's the US helped to liberate conquered nations where the populace was against their conquerors, in the current situation they are seen as the conquerors.
    17. Re:War is fun! by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 3, Interesting
      There's also a famous quote from a WWI British officer named Julian Grenfell:

      "I adore war. It's like a big picnic without the objectlessness of a picnic. I've never been so well or happy. No one grumbles at one for being dirty." ... Julian Grenfell's picnic was soon over. He died from wounds on April 30th, 1915. He was 27 years old.
      I got the quote from here, which is a great WWI web-site.
      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    18. Re:War is fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      WWI began in 1914, but America didn't get there till April of 1917 (oh yea, and it ended in November of 1918. Of the ~10 million deaths, and 13 million wounded, America's contribution stands at approximately 1% (117k killed, 205k wounded).

      Cripes, Canada, with a population about 1/12th of the United States at that time, suffered HALF as many casualties (67k killed, 150k wounded)! By proportion to overall population, Canada contributed approximately 24x as much as the USA!

      World War II began in 1939. The Battle of Britian was fought in 1940. The Americans, after A LOT of wembling about "other peoples' problems", finally joined the war in December of 1941 (having essentially sat-out half of the conflict).

      The Shah of Iran was an American-backed dictator who essentially pillaged Iran and stayed in power by virtue of the CIA.

      Similiarly, Saddam Hussein was enabled by support from the American military-industrial complex, as well as the CIA and the DoD. They armed him, paid him, and supported him because he was happy to throw hapless Iraqis lives at Iran on behalf of the ole' US-of-A.

      Given these things, I'm having trouble finding a basis for the self-righteous tone of your message (other than just being completely blind to history, and having swallowed the current propaganda hook-line-and-sinker...)

      -AC

    19. Re:War is fun! by idontgno · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

      Robert E. Lee

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    20. Re:War is fun! by Stavr0 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Oh it's much simpler than that:

      all they ever do is replace "Oppressive Bad Guy 1 antagonist to the U.S." with "Oppressive Bad Guy 2 sympathetic to the U.S."

    21. Re:War is fun! by Ubergrendle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "While I somehow doubt you are a 'Conservative Republican', you do realize the document was written in 1994? Just like Bush 'faked' the Iraq WMD stuff in 1998, two years before he was elected so Congress would pass the Iraq Liberation Act, now he's being blamed for a 1994 (purported) anti-terrorism manual? You libs are too much."

      While i agree tying this document directly to Bush's foreign policy is a non-starter, I have to counter your claim re: WMD. Between Hans Blix's investigations in Iraq (inconclusive at best) and the CIA's complete refute of the Nigerian uranium story, W Bush's Iraq policy was based on false evidence used to mislead supporters.

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    22. Re:War is fun! by ericspinder · · Score: 3, Informative

      Like Bush' supposed "service record" from 73 that turned out to have been made with word 2003.

      Yea, that may have been made up, too bad it overshadowed the very real issue of Bush's questionable National Guard service.

      --
      The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    23. Re:War is fun! by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      Cripes, Canada, with a population about 1/12th of the United States at that time, suffered HALF as many casualties (67k killed, 150k wounded)! By proportion to overall population, Canada contributed approximately 24x as much as the USA!

      So the only way to contribute to the war effort is to sustain casualties? By that logic I guess that Yugoslavia contributed more during WW2 than the US or UK?

      World War II began in 1939. The Battle of Britian was fought in 1940. The Americans, after A LOT of wembling about "other peoples' problems", finally joined the war in December of 1941 (having essentially sat-out half of the conflict).

      You might want to consider reading some history before you bemoan how the United States "sat out" the first half of WW2. Even if the American people were inclined to get involved (they weren't) the United States didn't really have much of a military to speak of in those years. The only branch of the American armed forces that was remotely ready for war was the US Navy. The US Army and Army Air Corps were a joke and meaningful American intervention simply wasn't possible until late 1942/early 1943.

      FDR did what he could with the cards that he held -- he sent arms to the Allies (a blatant violation of the concept of neutrality), attempted to keep Japanese aggression in check and ordered the US Navy to escort conveys in the Atlantic and to sink u-boats on sight -- months before we were formally at war with Nazi Germany.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    24. Re:War is fun! by wfeick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit. It's about belief, not provable fact. By your definition, everyone would have to be an agnostic since neither the believers nor the non-believers can provide proof of existence or non-existence of god.

    25. Re:War is fun! by goombah99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The manual that then follows is no worse than say Machievelli's "The Prince". or more apropos Sun Tzu "the art of war".

      "The Prince" is considered by many to be a handbook for being a successful, evil dictator. I don't recall anything of the sort in "the art of war" which is part philosophy and part tactics.

      And some people think the world is on top a stack of turtles.
      The prince is amoral not immoral. The idea is to separate the how and the why, then learn from the how. If it makes you reflect on the why then that's only good.
      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    26. Re:War is fun! by Hydian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a world of difference between a war like WWII that was a necessary evil and the current conflict which was completely unprovoked.

      I'm sure that people would be able to stomach a lot more if we were fighting a just war that had clear and noble goals or that was in actual defense of our country.

    27. Re:War is fun! by Guppy06 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "War is ugly ... but freedom is worth it. It is worth it now, like it was in 1916"

      A war between the Houses Hohenzollern, Hapsburg, and Osman against Houses Romanov and Windsor. Yay, freedom.

      If we had kicked back, relaxed and let these statist colonial empires melt down further, the cause of "freedom" would have been a lot better off, rather than letting the winners hang on to their colonies and in fact colonize the territories of the losers. Probably could have avoided the next war altogether.

    28. Re:War is fun! by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They also supported Isreal against Palistinians who've become the Middle-Eastern gypsies as a result.
      Dude, you need to read a bit of history beyond the past 60 years. The Palestinian people were Middle-Eastern gypsies loooong before modern Israel ever got there. They've been a stateless socio-ethnic group for nearly a thousand years. It was the (imperialist) British who first brought up the idea of a Palestine in the 1920s. The other Arab states simply didn't give a damn, at least not until Israel got plopped in their midst and suddenly the Palestinians became a good reason for opposing Israel.

      The Kurds (in Turkey/Syria/Iraq/Iran) are in a similar position with a greater population and an even longer ethnic history, only they're not anywhere near Israel. The other Arab states aren't exactly falling over each other trying to create a Kurdistan.

    29. Re:War is fun! by chriso11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But, surprise! Saddam wasn't harboring Al Queda. So why do you support 'vengeance' against someone who wasn't responsible (who was admittedly a bad man)?

      --
      No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
    30. Re:War is fun! by fredrated · · Score: 5, Informative

      "the intelligence may well have been flawed, but Bush didn't do it."

      In fact he and Cheney's "office of special plans" did exactly that: they blocked information that was not favorable to war, provided 'intelligence' from expatriots that was nothing more than lies and wishful thinking, provided 'intelligence' from torture victims that was worthless... and engineered the whole thing with only war in mind.

      "What was important was the Saddam comply with inspectors which he did not do"

      Dude you live in a fantasy world. The inspectors were in the process of inspection when they were driven out by the comming war. In addition, the UN 'resolution' fig leaf under which we went to war called for all countries to provide information the inspectors could use to locate the WMD. All the while the inspections were going on, Rumsfeld and others kept saying "we know where the weapons are" but refused to provide this information to the inspectors. This placed the US in violation of the resolution. It's easy to understand why we didn't provide this information: when inspection proved it wrong it would have made it a lot harder to justify why were going to war.

    31. Re:War is fun! by fredrated · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He lost? By empowering Iran, driving up the cost of oil, throwing away our armed forces and their equipment, our good name and our treasury, WE lost. Big time. Figure it out.

    32. Re:War is fun! by Kamots · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People are outraged about Iraq and not about Afghanistan.

      Because the people that were behind the attacks were harbored by those in charge in Afghanistan. The American public is 100% behind the actions carried out there.

      The fact that you would have been ok with him claiming that about Iraq, given that they had no connection to 9/11, concerns me.

      The fact that you're willing to advocate killing people (like Sadaam) for something that it's public knowledge they weren't involved with (like 9/11), *really* concerns me.

    33. Re:War is fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's the basis for the resentment, anger and hatred the people of these regions have for Americans, and that's the environment that's "breeding terrorists". Yeah right... everyone knows it's because they hate our freedoms.
    34. Re:War is fun! by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Do you mean 'like it was in 1914 and 1939'? As in when the world wars started as opposed to when the US decided to join in?"

      Geez.....first you get mad when we try to stay out of a war, then, you get mad when we get into one and take the lead on starting it.

      Will you make up your fucking mind??

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    35. Re:War is fun! by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure the French (and related areas) were bloody happy to see us at the time.


      Indeed, just as the Kuwaitis were happy to see us when we helped them reverse an invasion of their land. Getting help from an ally is usually a pretty good thing.

      Remind me, which foreign army did we push out of Iraq? Oh, wait, WE ARE the foreign army in Iraq.

      I can't imagine the average Iraqi is any happier about their Vichy government than the average Frenchman was.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    36. Re:War is fun! by 7+digits · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, as an European, I am really glad about what the American did on WW1 and 2 (of course, we also did things for you before, but nonetheless, that was great).

      > any war we get into solely to defend Europe's interests is seen as "right" and any for our own "wrong"...

      This is absolutely not true. The war in Afghanistan is seen as "right". The very very wrong war is Iraq.

      Furthermore, you didn't "get into" the Iraq war, you started it. It is a war of aggression, and the US is the aggressor, with a pretty thin justification. It is quite different from entering a war to protect allies victim of a war of aggression.

      I understand that the American people have been lied to and driven into an illegal war (your congress never approved it), but don't refuse the face the truth: this is not a war that you will be proud of.

      Btw, the war in Vietnam wasn't a very good idea either. Even if the French were already there defending their own interests. So, yes, you can do wrong even when you protect Europe's interests :-)

    37. Re:War is fun! by vandan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately for your arguement, Saddam was the US's biggest ally in the Middle East ( aside from Israel of course ) for decades. They backed his rise to power, and gave him WOMD to experiment with. You can't cry about him now without first admitting that you created the problem. And of course now you've executed him so he couldn't spill the beans on the details of the WOMD stockpiles he was given.

  2. Did any of this need to be confirmed? by damburger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean, where are the true believers now? Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility?

    We wag our fingers at China for their actions in Tibet, but by any measure what they have done there is far more humane than what we have done in Iraq. We lecture Russia about corruption and they simply retort with examples of western corruption.

    Who actually believes that our governments have any reason to exist anymore beyond their existence itself?

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    1. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We need some sort of government to protect peope from each other.

      Otherwise I couldn't agree more, it just sems to be a bunch of rich, cantankerous old killjoys at the top of each country, making up reasons to kill people that are under the influence of another bunch of rich old bastards.

    2. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I mean, where are the true believers now? Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility"

      Talk to the average north american, and you'll find out that there are many that would rank you with steretype of the crzzy-type 'conspiracy theorists'.

      This is just more example of fascism plain and simple, when business tools government for it's own interests.

    3. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by malignant_minded · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We wag our fingers at China for their actions in Tibet

      We lecture Russia about corruption


      get the feeling its all for the children? these things are probably just seen as a reason to justify our need for more guns and bombs, it works as long as the truth doesn't come out

    4. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by value_added · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I mean, where are the true believers now? Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility?

      An insightful comment if ever I read one.

      Also worth pointing out this gives lie to the "They hate us for our freedom" rubbish repeatedly heard from our leaders when conflicts and violence occur in unfamiliar parts of the world. The really sad thing is that any student of American history could say this is a non-story.

      Sometimes it's a bitch looking into the mirror.

    5. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The sad thing is that huge swathes of this read as if they were redacted to fit an ideology, not truly written based on pragmatic achieving of a goal. It's all about doing the "dirty work" that the chairborne rangers with their neckties and air-conditioned offices dream about.

      I am going to read this in more detail, but right now it depresses me that counterinsurgency tactics have fallen so deeply into doing the "glamourous", "badass" stuff and ignoring the repercussions. Current lack of success in Afghanistan and Iraq should have been a wake-up call to how important treating the locals is, how accepting moral limits can reap tactical benefits later on.

    6. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by call-me-kenneth · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Bill Hicks said it best, of course.

      Hey, aren't y'all a bunch of hired killers? Of course they're evil manipulative bastards, that's their job. You didn't really think they were there to spread democracy and peace did you?

    7. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Missing_dc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I mean, where are the true believers now? Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility"

      Talk to the average north american, and you'll find out that there are many that would rank you with steretype of the crzzy-type 'conspiracy theorists'.

      This is just more example of fascism plain and simple, when business tools government for it's own interests.


      I have been skimming the PDF, it is scarily like what they are doing in the US. while skimming, I found this gem:

        "The average peasant is not normally willing to fight to his death for his national government. His national government may have been a succession of corrupt dictators and inefficient bureaucrats."

      That sounds about right for us Americans.

      --
      How amazed would you be to suddenly find that you just forgot what I wrote and you needed to reread my post.... again.
    8. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by stewbacca · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Facism? Every western government has some sort of Special Operations system in place with all the same provisions. I think it is more telling that the slashdot crowd is just now "discovering" what has been known about black operations since the beginning of time.

    9. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by crossmr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hi,
      This is a common mistake made by many Americans, but please remember that Canada is not actually one of your states. You see we're an independent nation. If you need help finding us on a map its that really big spot above you where you get your maple syrup and you used to get cheap shopping. Since we're laterally north of you, we're also a "western government". Unless you're specifically talking about Alaska, then I suppose it is more west than us.. This was a US special force book. I don't believe it was a joint US/Canadian military manual. Yes our carrier planes suck and we occasionally bum a ride but we don't partake in all military activities together.

    10. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by kestasjk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I dunno, I think this is the old problem of mistaking incompetence for evil.

      Here in Australia our labor government (and before that, to a lesser extend, the liberal government) can sure be incompetent, but as much as I dislike Rudd he's probably not evil.

      He supported the Iraq war in 2003 and now blames Howard for it of course, but he (just like the majority of people) thought it was necessary at the time.

      No point mistaking bad intelligence and unquestioning politicians for malice.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    11. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by The+Anarchist+Avenge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, looks like our government did a great job of protecting Iraqis from my friend in high school, who joined up specifically to kill the towelheads.
      Oh, wait. They gave him a .50 and sent him across the pond.

      --
      Today's lucky number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    12. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We also need some sort of common sense to spot obvious fakes (just click on the pdf).

      If this is made by the US gov then they're beyond stupid. Not because of the contents. Just the layout.

      WWII pilot briefing documents look better than this "official" document.

      I say it's a fake.

    13. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by AHuxley · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Next slashdot will be "discovering" Operation Gladio.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    14. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Nursie · · Score: 2, Informative

      "(just like the majority of people) thought it was necessary at the time."

      Are we talking about in Australia?

      because in the UK the sentiment was thoroughly anti-war, to the extent that we the largest protests in the history of the country.

    15. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by belligerent0001 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks! I was going to mention the fact that the "standard" Special Forces/Green Beret training has included this stuff since it's founding. A GB's primary task is to train partisan fighters and conduct unconventional/guerrilla warfare.

      I also love it when people who are not citizens of the US comment on how "bad" we are. I think that people really need to start following the money trail because while our elected officials seem to make questionable decisions, they are not really the one formulating the decisions. Businesses are the ones who pull the strings. Lobbyist were never meant to have the power that they display.

      You want to change the government? Stop buying shit and convince everyone else to stop buying shit. Perhaps become Amish. The other option is way to radical for the likes of slashdot because there are too few with the stones to pick up a weapon and say "Live Free or Die". The "Live Free" part is easy to say but most people choke of the "Or Die" part.

      --
      "...a civilian some of the time, a soldier part of the time and a patriot all of the time." -Brig. Gen. James Drain
    16. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the good guys outnumber the bad guys, then things will eventually settle down
      Please define "good guys".
    17. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by sesshomaru · · Score: 4, Informative

      No point mistaking bad intelligence and unquestioning politicians for malice.
      Ok, as you are speaking of Australia, this may not apply to you. After all, I could see the government of Australia accepting intelligence from their ally the United States in good faith. However, citizens of the United States, you should understand that there is a difference between cooked intelligence and bad intelligence.

      Bad intelligence is when Achmed is giving you information, but he is actually secretly working for the Taliban. Cooked intelligence is when there is no Achmed, and the information you supposedly got from him was actually created by the Office of Special Plans out of whole cloth. Basically, black propaganda aimed at your own populace.

      Bad intellegence can be incompetence (or it can just mean the other side is better than you), but cooked intelligence is definitely malice.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    18. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Stellian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who actually believes that our governments have any reason to exist anymore beyond their existence itself? "We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."
      Any resemblance is purely coincidental.
    19. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Elky+Elk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      my democratic government is made up of man eating lizards

    20. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Kamokazi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I highly recommend you leave the country then, and go somewhere where there are pure dictators and effecient bureacrats. While you seach in vain for a utopia, I'll be here making the best of this horrible, corrupt government that allows me to live at a standard above the rest of the world.

      --
      As our way of thanking you for your positive contributions to Slashdot, you are eligible to disable Slashdot 2.0.
    21. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by oldhack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, that's a pathetic apology. It may have had modicum of relevance if we were not out there to "spread democracy". So like Iran that "killed" their kids, we killed our kids by drafting them and shipping them to Vietnam? And we were not even invaded.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    22. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Suzuran · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Good Guys", noun: The group of people who believe the same things I believe.

    23. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by internewt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why does the layout make the government stupid? It looks very much like any corporate document, and the military will be using corporate methods for some processes within the military these days. They will definately have access to the same software as the corporate world have too.

      WWII pilot briefing documents look better than this "official" document.

      And WWII pilot briefing documents are nearly 60 years old. Do they look real because they weren't word processed?

      And this document isn't aimed at modern pilots.... its for special forces and occupiers - people with a very different role in the military. From skimming through the document, it covers methods and tactics employed since world war II. You don't appear to have compared like with like.

      Please can you substantiate your claim this is fake?

      --
      Car analogies break down.
    24. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Nursie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stuff and nonsense.

      I mean seriously, what utter fucking rubbish. I take it you've never heard of any country ever where a small group of evil people took charge through fear or monetary means? Or facism or organised crime. The good guys almost always outnumber the bad guys, but most won't do a single thing about it becauase they have their own lives to worry about.

      This is the whole reason we delgate powers to governments.

    25. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you think the following 2 actions are equivalent :

      arming kids with a stick (not *even* a sword, much less any type of firearm) and sending them into a place you know is basically a minefield with a cardboard "key to heaven".

      Recruiting soldiers, training them, equiping them with multiple firearms, radios, jeeps, naval and areal support. And sending them to a battlefield where they work together to defeat an army that was threatening to kill massive numbers of people, and *did* kill 30 million people right after the democrats forced those americans to depart.

      If those 2 are morally equivalent in your mind, you need to see a shrink. Today, not tomorrow.

    26. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by tehdaemon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You need to read a little more history - and do a little analysis.

      The government that allows you to live at a standard above the rest of the world is not the one that we have now. It is the one that we had 100 or more years ago. The government we have now is setting the standard for 2108 or so....

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    27. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Bombula · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's a terrible tragedy that such a foolhardy strategy has been embraced by our current adminstration. The simple fact is that the garbage advocated in this 'doctrinal' guide is not counter-terrorism, it's merely counter-productive. You can leave aside the entire philosophical argument for fighting fire with water instead of with fire, leading by example, winning over others through cooperation and conversation rather than conflict and so on, and instead simply crunch the numbers: we could save far more American lives for far less money with a War on Drunk Driving or a War on Idiots Driving While Talking On The Phone than we ever will with the War on Terror, to pick just two examples off the top of my head.

      We lost 3000 souls on 9/11. Yet we've lost nearly 5000 in Iraq. Meanwhile, we steadily lose 50,000/year to drunk driving, another several thousand to those fools driving while talking on their phones. The numbers simply don't support a War on Terror no matter how you juggle them. This war of abstraction is, in fact, a Campaign of Terror to frighten our citizenry into submission in order keep the current military-industrial complex in power. It is as shameless as it is sickening, and the perpetrators leading the charade should be behind bars instead of in the White House.

      --
      A-Bomb
    28. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by alexgieg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh yeah, arming one group of people and giving them a monopoly on violence is the solution to interpersonal conflict. Well, Hobbes used to say that the advantage of governments isn't that violence itself ceases to exist, just that it switches level. Or, to be more precise, that outside a state you have violence at a personal level, with people shotting each other in the streets as the only way of being sure they won't be the next killed is by being the next killers, while with states, although you still have violence among them, at least people living inside them get some measure of peaceful coexistence. The difference, thus, isn't one of "good" versus "evil", but rather one of "bad" versus "worse".

      As a result of this reasoning, his take on the subject was that, for people to be able to accomplish anything better than having to live in an eternal struggle for today's food (where anyone can come and take from you what you made, no one bothers to produce anything, much less any surplus), the very first thing they need is a state strong enough to both make other states afraid of messing with them and to make the people under its umbrella afraid of messing with each other. Once you have this established, no matter how (and at this point a totalitarian tyranny is okay for him), you have peace enough for surplus production to develop. And once you have a functional society, then you can start pursuing other goals, such as, say, freedom of belief, freedom of speech, democracy, individual rights etc. (which, contrary to common belief, he pretty much preferred).

      So, yes, arming one group of people and giving them a monopoly on violence is indeed the solution to interpersonal conflict. Even if it leads, in the worst case scenario, to the monopolist becoming an absolute totalitarian hereditary monarch and everyone else becoming his personal slaves, as in this case interpersonal conflicts are also few. But, and this is important, it's a solution only to interpersonal conflicts. Everything else requires, of course, much more than this.

      A monopoly in violence, thus, is just the very first step required in solving human problems, as it solves our very first problem. But it's never the solution to all of our problems.
      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    29. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility?
      Absolutely, and that's why I think Universal Health Care will be an absolute, smashing
      The US Constitution used to require a formal declaration of war from the Senate before the President could go galavanting.
      The US needs to either become the UnitedState, with a single capitol and treating the former 50 as counties, or return to a more traditional, federalist separation of powers.
      The half-measures are what is tedious.
      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    30. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by hey! · · Score: 2, Funny

      I mean, where are the true believers now? Does anyone seriously think that western governments have any kind of moral credibility?

      But... but... but... our counterinsurgency tactics are working so well.
      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    31. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by ednopantz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The average peasant is not normally willing to fight to his death for his national government. His national government may have been a succession of corrupt dictators and inefficient bureaucrats."

      That sounds about right for us Americans.


      Talk about lack of perspective. Go spend thirty seconds with Google. Pick a dictator, any dictator: Castro, Somosa, Saddam, Ceausescu, whatever.

      Look at their record in office and compare to any US president of any era--Bush, Carter, Ford, Coolidge, Harding, whatever. The level of violence, corruption, intimidation, whatever aren't even in the same league.

      I know it is cool to be all downtrodden, but really: get out of the dorm and get a sense of perspective. You have it orders of magnitude better than anyone who ever lived under those governments. On his worst day, chimp boy is better than any government in any developing country on their best day. ..expects to be modded down for disagreeing with the waah! America sucks! groupthing.

    32. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by jalet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > iranian administration killed 500.000 kids

      Well, I'm living in a country which is PROUD of having sent millions (yes) of its children to death, and killed millions (yes) of children from several other countries, aguably with the generous help of some other western countries.

      In a few days the USA killed or injured hundreds of thousands of people : Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden, to name a few...

      And you seriously think there's a problem with Iran ?

      The only problems are greed, political power and religion (all), especially whenever they mix together. Not a lot of countries still mix these three anymore, and the chief of them is certainely not Iran.

      --
      Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
    33. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The good guys almost always outnumber the bad guys, but most won't do a single thing about it becauase they have their own lives to worry about.

      Those who sit idle while evil happens are not "good guys". The "good guys" are those who will actually get up off their asses to help out others, even at some risk.

      Thornley was right: "Universal Enlightenment [is] a prerequisite to abolition of the State, after which the State will inevitably vanish. Or - that failing - nobody will give a damn."

      Until everyone's "enlightened", governments are inevitable.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    34. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by scubamage · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah ok, in that case we should wage war on the Jews because the Talmud states that Gentiles should be slaughtered like livestock - specifically Christians. We should also wage war on Christians because the bible states that every thankless child should be stoned, and a man who lay with another man should be killed. Lots of religions talk about killing people for zany reasons, and the only ones who seem to really care are the crazies or nitpickers - you seem to fall into the second category. No religion is perfect, most poeple just realize that its more of an allegory than something to be taken word for word. As much of a barrier as you would like to place between 'us' and 'them,' and claim they are so barbaric, their society predates ours for a good 2-3 thousand years. I would guess that they understand that these are allegories as well... at least most of them. Granted, their religion is newer, but the people are much more cultured with a much richer history. You, my friend, need to read some of Edward Said's writings on Orientalism and Occidentalism.

    35. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by krilli · · Score: 2, Insightful

      outside a state you have violence at a personal level, with people shotting each other in the streets as the only way of being sure they won't be the next killed is by being the next killers, while with states, although you still have violence among them, at least people living inside them get some measure of peaceful coexistence


      And today, the only way to be sure that we won't be killed by a foreign terrorist ... is to kill our own morally retarded political leaders.

      OUR political leaders use perverted diplomacy, violence and evil to create hatred towards us — in countries we've seen on postcards, at best.

      Especially when concrete proof of true evil comes out, such as this insurgency manual. More than a few moderate folks around the world will now become angry at US foreign policy and its implementation.
      --
      Jag pratar lite svenska.
    36. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by qw0ntum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I shouldn't be feeding the troll, but it's obvious you don't really know too much about Islam with the way you've selected and interpreted those passages. If you've read the entire Koran and the Hadiths and gotten the message "lying is good!", then I'm sorry, but I don't think I can cure that kind of stupid.

      Oh, and could you please verify the authority of your translation? Because no Muslim would accept a non-Arabic version of the Koran or the Hadith as authorative, since so much is lost in translation. Arabic is a notoriously difficult language to translate due to the complexity of the ideas contained in many of the words. But you know that, of course, as I'm sure you've read Islamic holy documents in their original language, right?

      But wait! Maybe you haven't. "Islam" = military domination in Arabic? Wow, never knew that. Astasalama? What the hell are you talking about, is this some kind of blend of "ma salama" ("go with peace") and "hasta la vista"? Seriously man, if you're going to be a critic of Islam from primary texts, at least learn the language.

      No, sir, Islam isn't what needs to be destroyed in order to stop terror. It's intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry from people like YOU (whether in Iraq, America, or elsewhere) that has to die to stop terror.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    37. Re:Did any of this need to be confirmed? by halber_mensch · · Score: 3, Informative

      The good guys almost always outnumber the bad guys, but most won't do a single thing about it becauase they have their own lives to worry about.


      Those who sit idle while evil happens are not "good guys". The "good guys" are those who will actually get up off their asses to help out others, even at some risk

      Your ass had better be posting from a Darfur refugee camp, if you're going to make that kind of claim.
      --
      perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
  3. Now that everything that everybody already knew .. by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... has been proven, what are Americans going to do to make sure the government and the military practices what they preach?

    I thought the plan was to export democracy, free speech, human rights and other such goodies ... oh boy, was I wrong!

    --

    ---
    "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
  4. in the end by sveard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The United States will lose more than can ever be gained with war. It's a question when, not if.

    1. Re:in the end by fitten · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think Rome has gained far more than it has ever gained.


      Error: Infinite loop! *boom*
  5. Figures. by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So in other words Saddam Hussein was the ideal leader to have in Iraq?

    1. Re:Figures. by piemcfly · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For about 20 years, yes.

      Then he invaded Kuwait, and the USA / West decided he suddenly wasn't such a good idea anymore.

    2. Re:Figures. by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So in other words Saddam Hussein was the ideal leader to have in Iraq? We put him there, so presumably we thought so.
      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    3. Re:Figures. by IBBoard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. The west is perfectly happy with him when we help him to power because "our enemy's enemy is our friend", but once he does his own thing then he's some evil who should be destroyed, conveniently ignoring the history of how he got there.

      I can see why it might be a shock to some that this document got out, but given that it's for Special Forces then it doesn't really surprise me. Why have your elite forces actually playing by the book when you can fight dirty, be more effective and just blank over it if you're ever asked? That's not to say I condone it, just that it seems like an obvious military tactic when you're working in smaller and elite teams.

    4. Re:Figures. by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 2, Informative
      I didn't think so either. But apparently the CIA was involved in the failed assassination plot Saddam was a part of. http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/10/205859.shtml
      So we didn't put him there, but we helped his party to power. :) To summarize:
      • Qasim overthrows the monarchy and becomes PM.
      • A Baath group of 6 including Saddam - with CIA help - try to assassinate Qasim and fail - he flees the country - also with CIA help, and eventually goes back.
      • A different Baath group successfully performs a coup a few years later - also with CIA help. Arif becomes president. Saddam put in jail.
      • Saddam escapes and joins yet another coup by a Baath group - this one resulting in the Al-Bakr as president and Saddam as deputy.
      • Saddam becomes power behind the throne - seizes western-owned oil companies and uses money to develop modern Iraq infrastructure.
      • He becomes a general, eventually forces Al-Bakr to resign. Saddam takes over and does his famous video-taped "weeding" of the Baath leadership - calling out names and leading them away one by one(22 eventually executed)
  6. War is hell. by Wulfstan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As General William Sherman said;

    "I've been through two wars and I know. I've seen cities and homes in ashes. I've seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is hell!"

    You aren't fighting a war to be nice. You are fighting to win and to do so you need to do whatever it takes.

    These things mentioned are unpalatable but then again - so is war. Moral of the story - avoid it. But sometimes you will have to fight, and when you do, fight hard and fight to win.

    --
    --- Nick, hard at work :->
    1. Re:War is hell. by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So it's by any means necessary then?

      When we go over there to bring them freedom, we can do whatever the fuck we like because we're the "good guys", right?

      Whilst i can see some justification for some of these techniques in an actual war of defence against an aggressive power, you know this shit's going on in our wars of adventure and speculation too.

    2. Re:War is hell. by Patoski · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I've been through two wars and I know. I've seen cities and homes in ashes. I've seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is hell!"

      You aren't fighting a war to be nice. You are fighting to win and to do so you need to do whatever it takes. Yes, but there is one small problem... We never declared war.

      How can you win when you don't even have a "proper" war to begin with? There is no end to this "war" (and insurgencies) because it was never begun and the objectives were never clearly identified.
      --
      G. Washington on Government "it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    3. Re:War is hell. by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but there is one small problem... We never declared war. Technically, we never declared peace from the Gulf War, and Saddam kept shooting at our fighter jets. No war declaration needed.
    4. Re:War is hell. by fitten · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So it's by any means necessary then?


      Uh... yes? When you fight a war, you need to fight to win it. Otherwise, you get into a situation like Vietnam where the people on the ground don't know what they're supposed to be doing and just end up getting killed. Similarly, you shouldn't be sending soldiers into a situation where you should have police. Police and soldiers aren't the same thing.

      Now, there *are* options that typically aren't on the table like nuclear weapons and chemical agents, but other than that, yeah... fight to win, otherwise, you're just wasting lives.
    5. Re:War is hell. by DrLang21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that we should never go to war to bring people freedom. No one is going to like it. When you do need to go to war, the only strategy of war that should ever be waged is total war. The only way success in war can actually be achieved is by the complete submission of the enemy population (which also includes those not hostile). It's ugly and messy, but that's war. The idea that we're going to "bring freedom" to a region that is so hostile towards us is rediculous.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
  7. Wow, thats creepy by oh2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If this was a CIA manual noone would lift an eyebrow, but this is apparently a field manual for an Army unit. But I keep forgetting, unless you are an american citizen you lack rights in the eyes of Uncle Sam. Sad, really.

    --

    Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

  8. What's really scary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    many of those special forces folks come back and become your local police. Police departments and many security firms have a preference for ex-military.

    Also, doesn't anyone else find it ironic that those folks are supposed to be fighting for freedom and the American way?

    1. Re:What's really scary... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "Also, doesn't anyone else find it ironic that those folks are supposed to be fighting for freedom and the American way?"

      I didn't realize that censorship, surveillance, union busting, and silencing political parties had become un-American; let me pull out the champagne, this calls for a celebration. Our government has been slowly but steadily stepping it up on all of the above fronts, but in countries like Iraq they just happen to have an advantage: there is no existing legal framework standing in the way, so they are free to re-create society in a manner that suits them.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:What's really scary... by kalirion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think that's any scarier than the average bully/thug becoming my local police.

    3. Re:What's really scary... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sometimes steps have to be taken, and I think we would all agree the Civil War turned out as well as a war can be expected to turn out.

      Really? The death of 600,000 people followed by the continuation of segregation for a century, after a war that was ostensibly to free the slaves, is as well as we could have expected things to turn out?

      The Civil War was a battle of the landed aristocracy of the South (which relied on slavery) versus the new industrial aristocracy of the North. While freeing the slaves - though "just sort of on paper", as George Carlin put it - was indeed a Good Thing, we ought not overly romanticize the war; like most, at root it was all about control of money and power.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
  9. Is anyone actually shocked? by Satis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Special Forces are trained to work behind enemy lines in war to destabilize the government and cause as much damage as possible to the enemy's war effort. Since when have the niceties of the US constitution applied to an enemy, in war, in the enemy's territory? Regardless, war is uncivilized. Anyone that thinks otherwise should do some research. If you try to apply peacetime's morals to a war zone you're just going to lose a lot of lives and accomplish nothing.

    --
    Satis clankiller.com
    1. Re:Is anyone actually shocked? by stewbacca · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That was about the only post in this thread that should be modded up.

    2. Re:Is anyone actually shocked? by damburger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The one against the Native Americans would be the first example that springs to mind.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
  10. Compare to The Art of War by pieterh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sun-Tzu's book was in many ways similar, explaining how to conduct war, but the difference seems to be that 2,500 years ago in China there was no pretense of democratic government, and perhaps also the tactics described in that book were more successful.

    The cynicism of this counterinsurgency manual, and willingness to use ordinary people as material for war, is quite stunning.

    1. Re:Compare to The Art of War by Ngarrang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The cynicism of this counterinsurgency manual, and willingness to use ordinary people as material for war, is quite stunning. Such cynicism is necessary, though, for the greater good of the country. The terrorists from the Middle East want to kill all Americans. Why? Because of something our government did decades ago, because something a corporation did, because you aren't a muslim, because you the devil! The mere fact of being a terrorist means a lack of respect for human dignity and right to life, and thus sometimes, tactics that seem wrought with constitutional issues will be used and condoned by groups who don't want you to know what tactics are being used to keep YOU safe.
      --
      Bearded Dragon
    2. Re:Compare to The Art of War by Snocone · · Score: 2, Informative

      The terrorists from the Middle East want to kill all Americans. Why? Because of something our government did decades ago,

      Point of information: Whilst you are not actually inaccurate, you are imprecise. By a factor of half a millennium. The "terrorists from the Middle East" got particularly pissed with American troops remaining in Saudi Arabia after the first active phase of the still ongoing Gulf War, true, but long before the nation of America even EXISTED, let alone anything remotely recognizable as "our government" there were fatwas against the West, in particular Spaniards, to reclaim the "Muslim lands" of "Al Andalus". Which most of us know as "Spain", and have since the Reconquista was completed. In 1492.

      Or, talk to some Hindus. Whose post-9/11 reaction was basically "Um, guys? We've been battling Muslim terrorists for over a millennium on THIS side of the world? Nice of you to finally get on board?"

      However, this kind of historical knowledge and context is not only rare but deemed undesirable by many. "Bush lied, people died" is more suited to their cognitive talents.

      OK ... I flamebait unreasonably. The actual issue is not people's stupidity. It's that they wish to reduce the problem to one that they can control. Accepting the lessons of history would make that impossible; pretending that the world was a perfect place and Islam spread out of the Arabian peninsula with flower garlands and fluffy bunnies right up to the election of George Bush who is the sole source of evil anywhere in the entire world -- that frames the problem in terms they can affect, and thus empowers them, and therefore all reality which contradicts that is denied.

      Indeed, I think that the single best reason for President Obama to be elected is that the shock of these people's delusions running smack into their Messianic Figure dealing with the world as it actually is will be a positive delight to behold...

    3. Re:Compare to The Art of War by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Accepting the lessons of history would make that impossible; pretending that the world was a perfect place and Islam spread out of the Arabian peninsula with flower garlands and fluffy bunnies right up to the election of George Bush who is the sole source of evil anywhere in the entire world -- that frames the problem in terms they can affect, and thus empowers them, and therefore all reality which contradicts that is denied.

      I don't know what morons you've been talking to, but I've never seen that view espoused, or even the moderate view you've hyperbolized to make your point. No one's saying the mideast doesn't (and hasn't for a long time) had its problems.

      The biggest problem I - and a lot of people - have had with GWB's rule is how incomprehensibly stupid it's been. He kicked a hornets' nest with no plan to deal with the consequences. He's managed to set up a situation in Iraq where more people are killed than under Saddam. By just about every measure, Iraq is worse today than it was in 2002. It is more dangerous today than it was in 2002. Whatever the long-term goals were, they have not been achieved (no, "getting rid of Saddam" is not a long-term goal. It is a step in a longer plan to, say, bring peace to the middle east, or cheapen oil, or whatever).

      There is a world of difference you do not seem to see between "thinking the world is made of fluffy bunnies who love us", and recognizing that war is not the best answer to 99.9% of the world's problems. War has been tried in the middle east for centuries, and really hasn't worked out.

      In short, you're creating an idiotic charachiture of those who believe different of you. I have never seen the views you ascribe to those who view Bush in a negative light. *Never*. We all recognize that there are severe problems in the middle east - some old, some new. There is some very justified anger at actions taken by the US and other foreign agents. There is also very unjustified and stupid anger that you get in poverty-stricken theocracies. And the entire thing is a shade of gray.

      You do yourself a disservice by characterizing your opponents this way. You'll only serve to harden those who disagree with you, as they'll think your views so far from reality that you can't be reasoned with.

  11. Civil War - Not Domestic Policy by N8F8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All these are valid tactics for civil war. Armchair generals.

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
  12. You can't be this naive ... by Syncerus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    War is about imposing YOUR will on your enemy. If you read von Clausewitz, or Sun Tsu, you will find nothing but a ringing endorsement of the techniques described in your indignant lead in.

    Even beyond the observation that the manual describes nothing but techniques used in war since the dawn of time, I'll observe that it is the insurgents who cynically hide behind an unarmed populace. They make the fundamental decision to deliberately cause civilian casualties when they refuse to abide by the Geneva Convention and fight in uniform, away from civilian population centers.

    A uniformed military must counter the insurgents in some way; would you prefer that we burn down the house to kill the bed bugs? What do you suggest? Asking the insurgents nicely to go home? Take a long hard look at places like Somalia or the disaster in Bosnia and then tell me there are realistic options other than the judicious application of force.

    --
    "Man is nothing without the works of man" -- Helvetius
    1. Re:You can't be this naive ... by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I'll observe that it is the insurgents who cynically hide behind an unarmed populace."

      So fucking what, does that make it all well and good to murder tens of thousands of civilians?

      "A uniformed military must counter the insurgents in some way; would you prefer that we burn down the house to kill the bed bugs? What do you suggest? Asking the insurgents nicely to go home?"

      I would suggest getting the fuck out of other people's countries and minding your own goddamn business.

    2. Re:You can't be this naive ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then what are your feelings about the French and Polish resistances during WWII - they had no uniforms, "hid" among the populace, etc. Now their countries had no armies or real government, but neither does Iraq or Afghanistan.

      I'm not saying that Iraqi insurgents are anything like the French Resistance, but explain to me how you would draw the line justifying what happened in WWII and what's going on now.

      As far as I can tell, it's simply whoever survives and tells their story that becomes the hero.

    3. Re:You can't be this naive ... by nickname29 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Asking the insurgents nicely to go home?

      In Iraq, most of the insurgents are in their home. It is the US forces that are not in their home (or their home country).

      Basically you want all the insurgents to stand in formation the sand in full uniform waiting for the USA to bomb them into oblivion?

      So, by your requirements, the French resistance during WW2 was wrong (since they did not wear uniforms and hide in the general population)?

    4. Re:You can't be this naive ... by piemcfly · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh please. Give me a break with all this military realism.

      Notice that Von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu were part of military authority. Their single job is to propose anything they think might win a war, no matter how horrible.

      Then there is civilian authority, which has the job of making sound, balanced decisions between things like winning a war and being morally right.
      Civilian leadership has to make decisions that ensure that they dont go all Pinochet/electrodes-to-the-testicles just to impose their power.

      The fact that there are 'insurgents' (quite a loaded term these days) that do no 'play fair' does not matter in this regard.
      As a democratic, supposedly enlightened nation that cares for human rights and dignity, you should be willing to take a step back and implement rules against such amoral behavior, even if this means being a little less efficient in wartime.
      Otherwise, you might as well get it over with and implement totalitarianism/communism tomorrow, because that has been proven to be quite effective during wartime.

      Your comparison with Bosnia also shows a lack of knowledge, since the genocide and other atrocities commited there, were in fact largely commited by two uniformed, institutionalised, warring armies, not 'insurgents hiding within the population'.

    5. Re:You can't be this naive ... by Darth_Ramirez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Manual contains guidelines for US operatives in foreign countries - say some banana republic in South America - to quell what they call "insurgency".

      Insurgency against corrupt, inefficient, brutal regimes backed by the US - or directly put into place through a coup d'etat overturning the results of some election - because such regimes were considered a shield against bolshevism, or because the control over the government of that country will potentially entail huge benefits to corporations controlled by relatives & friends, or some major contributor for presidential election.

      That's hardly war. That's State Terrorism. And it doesn't even have a "higher cause" to justify it, besides paranoia and/or greed.

      And if I am naive, I wonder what you are.

      What you actually aren't is a Historian nor particularly well-informed about Somalia or Bosnia. Especially in the latter, I really wonder how could those tactics could apply in Bosnia at all, where there was a multi-ethnic war going on, with at least three sides involved.

    6. Re:You can't be this naive ... by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MMMM. Good points, King George. Have you ever heard of someone named George Washington? I think he was rather successful in fighting a war without using Sun Tsu or Clausewitz, Machiavelli, Nietsche, or any of the other instinctual morons with no sense of Grace. Washington wasn't particularly nice, attacking drunken soldiers on Christmas eve, but he did maintain his principles, which is important in a long war or occupation. The insurgents have a principle: foreigners out. What principle do we have? No labor unions? Oh... no labor unions for the peasants. Tax them, and we'll decide what rate. They don't need representation in Parliament... No, the original poster is correctly indignant. We have lost our principles. Too many of our militaristic voters think Tsu had the best lessons, not Payne, Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison.

      --
      Join the IParty!
    7. Re:You can't be this naive ... by MikeB0Lton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually it is several of the Muslim factions that are doing most of the killing right now in the middle east. The insurgents don't just duke it out with the US, they kill each other. Your suggestion for getting out of other countries would be nice, except that the US economy completely depends on resources from those countries. If so much oil money is flowing to the Persian gulf, then why 9/11/2001? Perception. Take a look at what is on television and magazines and you will know how the rest of the world perceives the US.

    8. Re:You can't be this naive ... by Alibaba10100 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two flaws with that view: 1. How much of the population has to ask? Should they hold a formal vote? 2. Asking someone to overthrow your oppressive government can be somewhat hazardous to your health. This may have an effect on a population's publicly held opinions. Either that or Robert Mugabe must have given some absolutely stunning campaign speeches over the years.

  13. The scary thing is: by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The manual is probably for situation where the world (and the press) might be watching you. If that isn't the case, you can whip out the really effective counterinsurgency measures (purges, ethnic cleansing, random killings to keep people afraid, retribution quotas, death camps, etc).

    1. Re:The scary thing is: by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Funny

      If that isn't the case, you can whip out the really effective counterinsurgency measures (purges, ethnic cleansing, random killings to keep people afraid, retribution quotas, death camps, etc).

      you've been to new jersey, too, I see.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  14. So? by overshoot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not like it hasn't been obvious that this has been US domestic policy for several years.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  15. It's about war by Olentangy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    News flash: during war armies also advocate killing people.

    We're talking about war here.

    1. Re:It's about war by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really, I got the impression we were talking about counter-insurgency?

      If an enemy nation invades my home country I'll give carte blance to the armed forces. I'll pick up a tyre iron and attack the invaders with my bare hands.

      But that's a far cry from counter-insurgency. I will not condone the armed forces I pay for propping up a foreign despot against insurgents. I especially will not condone the tactics outlined in this document.

      --
      This is where the serious fun begins.
  16. In other words by Stickerboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    War is hell, film at 11.

    Insurgencies/counterinsurgencies are a fight over the support of a population. The notion, which is implied in the summary, that wars can be fought in an environment devoid of the infrastructure of law and order with an attention to civil niceties that peacetime domestic civilian police forces can't live up to is ridiculous. The population will realize that your side is hamstringing itself while the other side has no such qualms and choose sides accordingly. That is what happened in Iraq for the first year or so of the Iraq insurgency - domestic Sunni and foreign jihadist groups terrorized the population whenever the American flag wasn't around, while the American occupation went around promising new water plants and soccer parks. No wonder the American intelligence gathering efforts were so effective back then - new soccer park vs. we will kill you and every member of your family if you cooperate.

    --
    Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  17. No holds barred by overshoot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These things mentioned are unpalatable but then again - so is war. Moral of the story - avoid it. But sometimes you will have to fight, and when you do, fight hard and fight to win.
    There are a few details in the way of your plan. Mostly treaties (such as the Geneva Convention) to which the USA is signatory, but there are still a few laws passed by Congress that also apply, depending on how creative you want to be with your redefinition of terms.

    The USA has spent a good bit of the last century telling the world that "the ends justifies the means" is not carte blanche to those with power. If there's going to be a change of policy, perhaps abrogating those treaties would be a good start.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  18. Re:Those sound like war tactics by value_added · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does this mean you can't win wars by giving the enemy a lollipop?

    No, but if the overthrow of the popularly elected democratic government in Iran way back when is any indication, it does suggest that you can avoid wars by staying out of other people's business. Put another way, getting out of the habit of pissing people off might get you your own lollipop.

  19. One important detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As the above have pointed out, the manual is for SF units behind enemy lines. The emphasis however, is on "enemy". Cause last I checked, Bosnia had not actually declared war on US. Nor Cuba. Nor Vietnam. etc.

    So this is not quite "war". This is "we don't like you, so we'll send our guys to blow up your infrastructure". When we do it to "them", we're aiding democracy. When 'they' do it to 'us', it's called terrorism.

    Fellows, I'm all for cynicism in war. Most people really don't get the extremes that become routine in real war. But I repeat - this manual will never actually be used in "war". It'll be used against whoever Uncle Sam says is the "enemy"; I think we all know how well that's worked out. (cf Saddam in 1983 vs. 1991, Shah of Iran in 1953 vs 1971, etc..)

  20. Obvious by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It directly advocates training paramilitaries,

    Chapter 23: Recruiting The Locals

    pervasive surveillance,

    Chapter 1: Know What The Enemy Is Up To

    censorship,

    Chapter 15: Maintaining Classified Data

    press control

    Chapter 15: Maintaining Classified Data

    and restrictions on labor unions & political parties.

    Chapter 8: Building A New Government (new since Iraq mission)

    It directly advocates warrantless searches,

    Chapter 2: The Element Of Surprise

    And it directly advocates the extensive use of 'psychological operations' (propaganda) to make these and other 'population & resource control' measures more palatable.

    Chapter 3: Getting The Locals On Your Side

    Honestly, WTF would you think would be in an operations manual? This is standard stuff for every army in the world. I mean, warrantless searches? My mind boggles that anyone would ever suspect otherwise.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  21. Does anyone... by DnemoniX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously how do people get surprised by this stuff? And no I do not mean the whole, "well the government is a bunch of criminals" mentality that has been dominating every thread like this. I mean WAR, plain and simple, is nasty business. Tactics such as those discussed in this manual have been in the playbook of armed combat since the dawn of war. Anyone who doubts that really needs to go pick up some history books. Hell that sounds just like the Roman Legions best practices guide to me. People need to get over the fact that war is dirty business period. This manual doesn't even warrant news. Before I get flamed, no I am not being cynical or being a war monger, just stating the obvious.

  22. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  23. Clean up after your war crimes... by mrraven · · Score: 4, Funny

    I liked the part environmental impact. Now remember boys and girls after violating international law and illegally foreign civilians clean up your messes. That is American morality in a nutshell focus on the trivial and utterly miss the big picture. And I say that as both an American citizen and environmentalist, but also above all a humanist.

    --
    Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
  24. Absolutely by goldcd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hence the support provided to him in his war against Iran. FFS he was using chemical weapons with impunity - then he wanders into Kuwait and becomes a 'bad' person. Now we seem to have decided Iran is 'bad' again, but we've removed the hostile neighbour we were supporting... but we can't wander into Iran ourselves.. but..
    Oh you just cannot take this stuff seriously any more.

  25. What we learned about running death squads... by js_sebastian · · Score: 5, Informative
    From TFA:

    The manual, Foreign Internal Defense Tactics Techniques and Procedures for Special Forces (1994, 2004), may be critically described as "what we learned about running death squads and propping up corrupt government in Latin America and how to apply it to other places". Its contents are both history defining for Latin America and, given the continued role of US Special Forces in the suppression of insurgencies, including in Iraq and Afghanistan, history making. This has nothing to do with "war is war". These are tactics for keeping a corrupt government in place by killing, torturing and otherwise terrorizing any opposition (this includes legitimate, non-violent opposition, labor unions, etc) and the general population. This was applied in places like el Salvador or Nicaragua, and please remember that THE US WERE NOT AT WAR WITH THESE COUNTRIES. In fact, there is no war in Iraq either, right? Mission accomplished...
  26. Re:Those sound like war tactics by Kohath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop the future! Something "bad" was done 60 years ago!

    That justifies any position in favor or opposed to anything from now until the end of time. And it automatically makes the other side wrong, regardless of anything -- because nothing they want to do will change what happened 60 years ago. And what if it happens again?

  27. Wow. Just wow. by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've scanned the comments, and after reading the respoonses from my countrymen I amd ashamed and appalled.

    There was an item on the radio in the news today that the Gitmo prisoners are suffering from TSS and show evidence of torture. When will Americans wake up and demand accountability? Like excellence, mediocrity and criminality come from the top.

    Bush, Cheney, the Secretary of "defense", and a whole lot of other people need to be tried and convicted of war crimes. The actions of my government are past shameful.

    We deserve the vitriol hurled at us by the rest of the world. For the first time in my 56 years I'm ashamed to be an American.

    Bush and all the people he has appointed should be impeached, tried, found guilty of treason and war crimes, and set in front of a firing squad and shot.

    Not even Hirohito damaged my country as much as the current administration.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Wow. Just wow. by methuselah · · Score: 2

      Somehow I think you are lying. The first time in 56 years over some criminals stashed away in cuba this make you ashamed? You know what just kills me about all of this is that people talk like there is this universal intelligence that drives the country, government, business, etc. Do you think that the cashier at wallmart is under direct supervision of the chairman of the board? Does exactly what they would have them do at all times? Do you really think that "hello my name is tina" cares what wallmarts goals are? Is she part of the evil empire because she has a blue smock on? If you are an American you are part of the government you are just as much to blame as any functionary. Does the government do what you want it to do? If it doesn't does that make you blameless? is it bush's fault that sirhan killed kennedy because he was pro israel? life is random and chaotic "we" want to blame "them" and then exonerate ourselves so we can feel good about ourselves. Liberals seem to be especially good at blaming everyone but themselves for the mess we are in. Its called the human condition and its not static. I think that most people do the try to do the right thing no matter what their politics, religion, ethnicity, or any other category you want to name. That does not mean that it will turn out well. You put gas in your car right? You have electricity and flush toilets don't you? You use a computer that was created for the most part in a communist country that oppresses its citizens don't you. You are guilty of pressuring the government, corporations, and yes probably even your own family into doing things so that you can continue to live the way that you want to. They also want to continue their lifestyles too. So lets all find a straw man to blame friggin everything on and dream up all kinds of rationalizations as to why they and those around them are evil. Then we can feign embarrassment at their actions and feel superior. Yes all sides do it and most of the time they do it at the expense of common sense and reason. You sir are a hypocrite unless you are living in a field growing your own food and of coarse not eating any meat. Your spare time should be spent volunteering for the poor and any money or possessions you own should immediately be given to some charity that supports those that can't or wont support themselves. I have nothing but contempt for your ilk's spoiled whiny self righteousness.

  28. Re:Servers? by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hope their servers can take the load. The load? I'm sorry, but between Scientologists and U.S. Special Forces, I'd rather leak Scientology material. Wikileaks just earned legitimate interest from several three-letter agencies. There are going to be spies from many countries trying to find out how Wikileaks got this document (to prevent or encourage more leaks). Some of the countries will be less pleasant in their methods than others and despite the nature of this document, I don't think the U.S. is at the top of that list.
  29. Sherman was The Man by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He truly was the first modern general. Right before he kicked everyone out of the town and burned Atlanta, he also said, "You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it . . . But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter." Sherman hated newspaper reporters too, and wanted to have them all hanged as spys. I wonder if the Iraq War wouldn't have been over long ago if the US had banned all press before the invasion? Like it or not, if you want to WIN, that's how it's done. Thousands of years of human history don't lie. It's all about denying the enemy a support base and destroying the population's will to resist.

    I've often said that if Sherman were in charge (I mean *really* in charge as an independent command, and allowed to conduct it as he did the March to the Sea and beyond), the Iraq War would have lasted about six months tops. But because we place the lives of civilians over victory, we have had a long and protracted war in Iraq . . . which is ironic because the "Sherman approach" has higher initial civilian casualties but is over much faster with many fewer total civilian casualties, and the country can be rebuilt that much faster.

    1. Re:Sherman was The Man by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >I wonder if the Iraq War wouldn't have been over long ago if the US had banned all press before the invasion?

      Makes sense, right? Bad strategy, bad decision, not understanding your enemy, no post-invasion planning, calling it a cakewalk internally... all faults of the media, eh?

  30. Re:Now that everything that everybody already knew by TobascoKid · · Score: 2

    what are Americans going to do to make sure the government and the military practices what they preach? They are practicing what they preach - most of those practices are in various stages of implementation right now in the USA.

    Of course, this must mean that there is some insurgency underway in the US, but the media (i'm guessing under government suppression) isn't telling anyone about it.
    --
    At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
  31. once again by ClioCJS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the original Gulf War was not declared either, so your point is moot and GP's point stands

    --
    -Clio
    Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
    Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    1. Re:once again by Nimey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, we in the USA haven't had a properly declared war since World War II.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  32. Forgive me if I'm mistaken by Datamonstar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but I read over a good portion of the .PDF and aren't the things it endorses tantamount to terrorism, that evil scourge the nation is supposed to be so against? Just asking, but isn't it basically saying that it's okay for them to do it, but others cannot? And, if they can keep it a secret they'll support terrorism as long as it's against an enemy?

    --
    The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
  33. Counter-Insurgency is needed by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Interesting
    If you'd all stop and take a breath from your incredulous findings for a moment. Counter-insurgency is what is needed in Iraq AND Afghanistan. The reason we haven't wrapped up both of those regions yet is because of the politicians insisting we approach these conflicts with traditional warfare pieces and making us play by the rule while the enemy has no rules.

    Let's pull out 100,000 regular troops in Iraq now and replace them with every last special ops and civil affairs troop we have, and we'll have success within months. But no, the politicians insist we play by antiquated rules because we are a "civil" society. Every time a politician says to pull troops out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan, they instantly lose credibility with anyone who knows anything about how regular troops deploy, and how they are ineffective in the Afghan theater. Keep that in mind this election season. As much as I detest the saying, sometimes the ends really do justify the means. 10 years, trillions of dollars, a few thousand US lives, a few hundred thousand Iraqi lives and years of political instability, or a few months of counter-insurgency operations and a somewhat stable (relative term) governance in place...you decide.

  34. Do you really need this kind of proof? by TerribleThing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's amusing that Americans need a written document to believe in something that they can learn by themselves if they dare to go around the world just asking!

    Go to Chile and ask who (and how) helped Pinochet's coup d'etate? and what about Argentina's militar Junta in '76? San Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, etc., etc. And that is only in Latin America.

  35. #1 Rule of Combat by joecasanova · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "If you are fighting fair you are doing something horribly wrong."

  36. Way Offtopic by PinkyDead · · Score: 3, Funny

    But I was intrigued by the use of the world 'peasant'. I figured that it was a term that only made sense in a feudal system - so like the proper netizen that I am, I toddled off to Wikipedia to clarify my thoughts.

    I got no further than the first line:
    Not to be confused with pheasants.

    ROFL! What's that, a guideline for the upper classes when on a shooting party!

    Sorry. I never did find out about the peasants.

    --
    Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
  37. This should not be a surprise to Americans... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean seriously, it seems that everyone except the majority of American citizens has known for decades that this is how the US operates. The very dirtiest of tactics and a complete disregard for human rights against any group or any nation that dares to stand in the way of American corporate hegemony in any significant way.

    It seems that anywhere in the world that there's a profit to be made, it is the God given right of an American to be there making that profit. Never mind that, just perhaps, countries may want to control their own resources for the benefit of their own people. Such countries should always be disabused of any notion that they are anything other than an American profit centre. Unless, of course, such country is big enough and with an effective enough armed forces to seriously fuck up any US attempt at military coercion.

    Fortunately for the rest of the planet, this whole "America as World Police" thing will be the downfall of the US. Trillions of dollars are being used for military expenditures without acknowledging the fact that changes in foreign policy would mostly achieve the same security objectives. America will be a lot less vicious and coercive after the economic meltdown it will face within a few years.

  38. Re:HeavensBlade23 by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    knowing that Bush will only follow his invisible leader in the sky.

    News flash, sparky: this has nothing to do with religion. Bush no more believes in God than you do. But he knows how to use propaganda, he knows how to get Christians to follow his evil, Satanistic ways. What you ascribe to religion is merely evil, selfish men who use religion to further their own greed.

    Bush is the wolf is sheep's clothing that we were warned about. Pat Robertson, too. These men are NOT Christians. Don't listen to their words, look at their actions. They worship money.

    Bush is an athiest who pretends to be a Christian.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  39. No stomach for reality. by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is exactly what we did in World War 2. It is why it ended in only six years. People today have taken on such an unrealistic view of the world and worse on how wars need to be fought. As we found out in the forties you cannot talk to the unreasonable. They will make their threats and when they are ready they will act on them. Of course those who thought they could talk it out will act all confused and such but the end still remains the same, the unreasonable did what they said they would and now instead of containment we have to first kick them out.

    Wars only end when one side loses the stomach to fight it. That is done by demoralizing the populace which supports it. Unfortunately that means raining death and destruction on what is a civilian population.

    Look, it would be nice if we could afford to not mind other people's business but unfortunately many of these countries make it imperative that someone does mind their business. Are you suggesting the world ignore Iran's leadership constant threats to wipe Israel off the face of the earth all the while telling the UN to bugger off when it comes to their nuclear program? I guess we are going to ignore China the day it overruns Taiwan too. After all its only "yellow/brown/red" people - not whites, not in our own backyard, etc.

    Sheesh, how many people must die before it becomes okay to act. When will people realize that proactive actions will cost lives too but more likely less than in the long run. Why is it okay to suggest intervention in darfar or zimbabwe but not somewhere else? Who decides which is which? What about Burma. I guess its okay to let nearly a quarter million die because we need to mind our own goddamn business.

    Well we are doing it and they are still dieing. You can't win, you can only make losing less painful. Minding our own goddamn business doomed hundreds of thousands to death during the Hutsi/Tutsi fighting, millions are starving in Darfar, and how many hundreds of thousand do we not know about in Burma.

    Turning away does not make it not happen. It sucks but its the truth

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:No stomach for reality. by aCC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but your analogy to WW2 is so flawed it's not even funny. In WW2 there was a terrible war GOING ON and people were being killed on a grand scheme beyond comprehension. What war was going on in Iraq when the US marched in? Or in Afghanistan? Or now in Iran? Or North Korea? (Notice, I'm talking about war, not suppression of people.)

      It is one thing to go somewhere to stop a terrible war or even to stop mass killings (which noone does anyway as we see in Darfur), but it is a completely different thing to START, yes, START a war where there wasn't one. If you want to compare it to WW2, then you have to compare the US to the aggressor of that war, i.e. Nazi Germany, because that was exactly what they did (and they had the rhetoric to paint their actions as morally right in a similar way to your rhetoric). I pray to God the next administration will lead the USA onto the right path, so that it is a respected country representing freedom not terror.

  40. People sleep peaceably in their beds at night by aquatone282 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ". . .only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell, assholes.

    --
    What?
  41. The Suspension Clause by thesaurus · · Score: 3, Informative

    One of the things the manual apparently advocates is "the suspension of habeas corpus". Why is this shocking? The U.S. Constitutional standard is "when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion" and I'd sure consider insurgency as qualifying.

  42. I hate to point this out, but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    War isn't Ultimate Frisbee. No `spirit' points awarded.

  43. Re:Sounds like Republican / Corporate tactics by Scratch-O-Matic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This document was signed in 1994. Where do these policies fit in Clinton's playbook?

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    Evil is the money of root.
  44. Big Deal!!! Counterinsurgency Manual not new. by QuantumSam · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry to pop all your bubbles, but that Counterinsurgency Manual is publically available. I bought an offical copy from Amazon many months ago. There's nothing secret in the book and those "warrantless searches" are done on the battlefield overseas, not in this country. The whole article is alarmist tripe.

    1. Re:Big Deal!!! Counterinsurgency Manual not new. by failedlogic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Special Forces have been doing this since the Second World war and perhaps well before then. I don't know much about older warfare, but in what I've read of Samurai culture, I think Ninjas did pretty much the same thing. In any case, the more "modern" and well-documented use of these tactics were used (in my limited knowledge of) the Vietnam War and the Cold War.

    2. Re:Big Deal!!! Counterinsurgency Manual not new. by mizhi · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, to be fair, the particular manual WikiLeaks posted was restricted on 5 DEC 2003 to Army personnel only. So, while it's not classified, it's not generally meant for public consumption. That doesn't mean you can't find it with a little searching.

      What is currently available on Amazon's website is the Operational Techniques (link) Manual. This is more of a "what sf does" type of book. The WikiLeaks article links to a TTP which is like a "HOW TO" manual. And in reality, while it's no secret what SF or any other type of Army unit does, specific TTP are sensitive because they have pretty specific guidelines and checklists on how certain tasks are accomplished.

      They're not classified, but they're also not something an Army unit would necessarily want widely distributed.

      Oh, and for people complaining about the format of the manual - this is what Army manuals look like. They have lousy formatting, and it's pretty common to find typos and other errors.

      WikiLeaks didn't really scoop anything, so it's not some sort of coup.

      --
      Humorless sig goes here.
    3. Re:Big Deal!!! Counterinsurgency Manual not new. by Zeek40 · · Score: 2, Informative
      This field manual was never classified. The entire world saw it at the same time that it became US doctrine. Perhaps you should actually read the thing instead of relying on the wildly inaccurate summary from wikileaks. Here are some quotes from the field manual:

      Insurgencies arise when the government is unable or unwilling to redress the demands of important social groups. These groups band together and begin to use violence to change the governmentâ(TM)s position. Insurgencies are often a coalition of disparate forces united by their common enmity for the government. To be successful, an insurgency must develop unifying leadership, doctrine, organization, and strategy. Only the seeds of these elements exist when an insurgency begins; the insurgents must continually nurture and provide the necessary care if the insurgency is to mature and succeed. Insurgencies succeed by mobilizing human and materiel resources to provide both active and passive support for their programs, operations, and goals. Mobilization produces workers and fighters, raises funds, and acquires the necessary weapons, equipment, and supplies. Mobilization grows out of intense, popular dissatisfaction with existing political and social conditions. The active supporters of the insurgency consider these conditions intolerable. The insurgent leadership articulates its dissatisfaction, places the blame on government, and offers an alternative. The insurgent leadership then provides organizational and management skills to transform disaffected people into an effective force for political action. Ultimately, the insurgents need the active support of a majority of the politically active people and the passive acquiescence of the general populace.

      Psychological Operations: To defeat an insurgency, the HN government must retain or regain the confidence and support of its people. The objective of an IDAD [internal defense and development] program is not to kill or even capture the insurgents. It is to convince them to abandon a hopeless or worthless cause and support the HN government. PSYOP must therefore be an integral and vital part of an IDAD program. SF soldiers may have to educate their HN counterparts in the value and role of PSYOP in FID. They must then advise and assist HN forces in developing and implementing an effective PSYOP program. Thats the type of stuff that's in there. Explaining how insurgencies are caused because insurgents are put in a bad position, and the solution is to fix the bad position they're in. After you've read this one, find some of the infantry tactics field manuals (They're all unclassified, and available straight from the US Government). They're actually much more graphic. In summary, you should really read the source, rather than trust the abstract pulled from it by a website who's main goal is to sensationalize things to gain advertising revenue.
  45. Obligatory 'Family Guy' scene quote... by BUL2294 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Bush: Alright, let's do this, let's kick some ass!
    Officer: Ah, George, the war is over.
    Bush: What?
    Officer: Yeah, it's done.
    Bush: Get outta here, you serious?
    Officer: Yeah.
    Bush: Oh man, Ahh, I just got your messages (stumbling). I'm sorry.
    Officer: George it's been over for a while.
    Bush: Really?
    Officer: It's 1981.
    Bush: Oh, oh wow, so, I'm way late. Oh boy. Well, you wanna do something else?
    Officer: I got some blow.
    Bush: Son-of-a-bitch, it took you this long to tell me. Break it out man!

    --
    Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
  46. Amazon by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's $10.20 (paper back) on Amazon.

    or you can get it on line from the us army at Us.army.mil.
    see FMI 3-07.22

    The FAS has the 2004-2006 version posted here

    No story. move along.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Amazon by sl3xd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yet more evidence that wikileaks needs more editorial oversight.

      The other problem I have with wikileaks in general is that there's no way to know anything posted there is authentic.

      For all you know, some guy at IP address www.xxx.yyy.zzz is posting some creative writing, propaganda, defamatory stories, whatever.

      The original story on slashdot is pretty biased to begin with: warrantless searches, habeas corpus, detainment without charge? They're military units at war in a foreign land - they're not the local police department, they're not there to serve & protect the interests of the locals, but the interests of the USA - or more accurately, its commander in chief.

      War is hell, and military is an instrument of war. It's amazing that people get prissy about an organization whose purpose is to kill and destroy until a government or people is either destroyed or decides it's better off agreeing with the terms for peace.

      You shouldn't get mad at a lion for eating your child on main street USA; the lion is merely doing what lions do. It is far more sensible to go after the person(s) who released the lion into a city.

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      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  47. Counter insurgency tactics have to be dirty by Maudib · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is really kind of absurd. The article is all alarmist creating the impression that the U.S. is on some moral limb with its counter insurgency tactics. This is hogwash. Whats REALLY funny is that the U.S. has always been hesitant to really commit to the kind of counter insurgency tactics that actual work and keeps trying to fight insurgencies with normal battlefield tactics. This book is just an attempt to implement in the special forces what many other governments have already successfully done against insurgencies.

    For example-

    (1) England. England practically wrote this play book. They used it to great effect in Ireland, India and amusingly the middle east. They suppressed the media, lied, arrested on mere flimsy suspicion, bribed and bombed. Guess what- it worked. They were very successful at suppressing insurgencies in many many countries.

    (2) India. They learned very well from their former colonial masters and have one of the best counter insurgency operations in history running in Kashmir and a few other provinces. Totally dirty. Totally works.

    (3) The French in Algeria. The French successfully beat down an insurgency in Algiers that was particularly brutal (bombed many many civilian locations) using all of the tactics cited in the article above. Unfortunatly they went one step too far and engaged in some pretty nasty torture. While they were able to pacify the city their was media outrage at home. The insurgents started operations again in the country-side and the broke French government just decided to leave.

    There are a lot of other examples. However consider this, the British have been far more unsuccessful in their areas of operations in Iraq then the U.S.. On the one hand they are far less arrogant, and far more respectful in some ways to the locals then the U.S.. On the hand they are employing all of the dirty tricks they learned from hundreds of years of successful direct colonialism.

    Insurgencies fight dirty. Successful counter insurgencies do too. The U.S. to date has been pretty bad at this game and it really does appear that its due to a mindset in U.S. commanders that insists on forcing big war paradigms onto the a very different kind of battlefield. It sounds like this book needs wider distribution if we are going to go to places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

  48. Let's Hear an Alternative by boatboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously, I hear many critics, and can partly agree with some of their points. Any self-respecting conservative should believe in 'staying out of foreign entanglements'. But what I don't hear is an alternative. What should the policy be for handling groups of people with the stated goal of destroying our country? Dialog? Ok, what when the dialog comes to a standstill? What when the groups are loosely organized and not tied directly to a country, treaties, etc.? So, all you complainers need to get together on a wiki and come up with an alternative manual for anti-terror policy.

  49. Link to doc by ehack · · Score: 2, Informative
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    This is not a signature.
  50. Re:Now that everything that everybody already knew by why-is-it · · Score: 2, Informative

    Practicing what they preach would be saying openly that it's OK to suppress dissenting speech,

    Did you ever hear of Free Speech Zones

    violate human rights,

    What about Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and extraordinary rendition to name but three. Cheney is on record saying that torture is a no-brainer if there is the potential to save (presumably american) lives...

    and hire terrorists

    Well, depending on how you define terrorist, the US has provided support for: the IRA, Osama Bin Laden, and various death squads in South America. Doing business with "friendly" tyrants has not been atypical either.

    Do you hear the administration publicly admitting to all that?

    Actions speak much louder than words.

    Otherwise the talk is all about freedom, liberty, democracy, and fighting terrorism.

    Talk is cheap. The actions of this administration suggest less-than-noble intentions.

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    *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
  51. No such thing as fair. by harl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Once you've decided to kill to accomplish your goals the idea of outlawing lesser acts than killing seems a little absurd.

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    I find being offended by me offensive.
  52. Re:bullshit by speedtux · · Score: 2, Informative

    you are entitled to your opinion and me mine ... however, nothing I said is factually incorrect.

    You haven't said anything "factually incorrect" because you haven't said anything factual at all.

    and I will be voting McCain in 2008 too. Lets see if that can get a few more expletives to come out of your mouth :D

    Well, it is obviously pointless to try change your position. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy to others. After eight years in power, two nations in ruins, a trillion dollars spent on war, and an economy in shambles, Republicans still fail to take responsibility for their actions and admit that they screwed up. After what you did and how you are trying to weasel out of it now, people have a right to be angry with Republicans and people like you.

    You also don't know your history when you talk about "anti-war liberals" in reference to WWI and WWII. It was two liberal Democrats that caused the US to enter into WWI and WWII. They entered those wars for the right reasons, and they followed through correctly. Despite all the Republican lies and distortions, it is the liberals that cause the economy to flourish and bring prosperity to America, lead the nation into just and successful wars, and promote freedom around the world.

    People like McCain and you lack values, you lack historical understanding, and you lack integrity. And the sooner people realize that, the sooner we can restore American values and American strength.

  53. Re:Those sound like war tactics by Kohath · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure the above as written actually means anything, but if your argument is that past mistakes and transgressions shouldn't be considered when similar behaviour is up for question... No. It means "this thing happened 60 years ago" is not an argument for or against anything. When "what about this thing that happened in 1921?" is offered as an argument, it's never offered as a logical argument. It's offered as an emotional attack that changes the subject.

    Maybe I can explain the difference with some examples. This is an example of a logical argument that makes a good point: "We can't use nuclear weapons because we scrapped them all 60 years ago. There are no more."

    Here is an example of an emotional argument that makes no particular point, even though we've all heard it a hundred times: "We shouldn't invade Iraq. We armed Saddam Hussein 20 years ago."

    You see the difference? The second argument is just code words for "the US is bad". It makes no logical argument for anything. It presents no context about 20 years ago. It doesn't explain why the one event precludes the other. It doesn't explain why the facts are (implied to be) exactly the same now as they were 20 years ago. It's really not a debate point at all. It changes the subject to an emotional attack on the US.

    If you want to say that some event in the past is meaningful because there's a lesson that should be learned, then state the conclusion. The implied conclusion to most of these arguments is "I hate the US". The lesson seems to be "the US is always wrong". But the arguments don't really make a convincing case, so the conclusion is left for the US-haters to fill in with their own prejudices.

    Anti-war folks seem to be extremely intellectually lazy, dishonest, discontent, and altogether unable to put together a logical argument of any kind on the subjects they talk the most about. They seem indifferent to the real consequences of their choices and they have no apparent curiosity or desire to understand other viewpoints.

    Also, they don't solve problems. They just complain when other people try to solve them. "Those other people are doing it wrong again. There's this thing that happened 60 years ago, after all."