Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Blesses LGPL, Joins Apache Foundation
Penguinisto writes "According to a somewhat jaw-dropping story in The Register, it appears that Microsoft has performed a trifecta of geek-scaring feats: They have joined the Apache Software Foundation as a Platinum member(at $100K USD a year), submitted LGPL-licensed patches for ADOdb, and have pledged to expand their Open Specifications Promise by adding to the list more than 100 protocols for interoperability between its Windows Server and the Windows client. While I sincerely doubt they'll release Vista under a GPL license anytime soon, this is certainly an unexpected series of moves on their part, and could possibly lead to more OSS (as opposed to 'Shared Source') interactivity between what is arguably Linux' greatest adversary and the Open Source community." (We mentioned the announced support for the Apache Foundation earlier today, as well.)
He doesn't like cold.
Either that or I am dead.
What?! [looks out the window]
The end of the world happens in 2008, not 2112.
Maybe they finally got tired of being wrong. This is surprisingly clueful behaviour, and should be encouraged.
I think M$ has seen the writing on the wall. With the utter failure of Vista, and Apple's skyrocketing market share, it's only a matter of time.
I am with Linus on this one
They "embraced" Java at one point too. Embrace, extend, pollute, destroy.
it's a trap!
In unrelated news, evolution picks up pace as pigs gain wings.
That is all I have to say about that.
Did April Fool's Day come 3 months and 25 days late this year or what?
I love seeing things get open sourced just as much as the next guy, but who in their right mind would WANT the source code for Vista?
There's some 'embrace, extend, obsolete' in here somewhere, but I'm beginning to think that this behavior from MS has a lot more to do with Ballmer's seemingly obsessive desire to overtake Google.
In other words, in order to defeat their enemy, they're going to try to BECOME their enemy first. MS is trying to emulate everything Google does, including supporting open source projects.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
1) they ignore you
2) they laugh at you
3) they fight you
4) you win
Extend...
Extinguish.
Sorry Microsoft, but given their past behavior and downright malicious attacks, they're going to have to do far more to gain trust.
What is interesting/scary is that for a relatively small amount ( As seen from the Microsoft Universe ), they could buy off virtually every project, of note, out there. How many projects could be supported on Microsoft's toilet paper budget alone?
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
The Apache and LGPL licenses aren't much of a threat to them. GPL is, because GPL prevents "embrace and enhance", Microsoft's commonly-exercised strategy to take over a market. Microsoft has signed over work to FSF in the past when it was necessary to get changes into GCC for one of their (past) divisions that was making a Unix compatibility layer. I don't think this is the first time they've had to deal with GPL, by far.
So, the big question is, have they turned over a new leaf? I think they're still a super-size multinational for-profit corporation, and the reality is that every one of those will be self-serving first, whether they are Microsoft or someone more usually identified as a "friend" to Open Source. But Microsoft has managed to set themselves ahead of other corporations as a frequent user of dirty-fighting tactics to get its way. I don't expect that corporate culture to go away.
I think we still have some big problems with Microsoft, primarily around software patents. They are still in a position to attack Linux with them, although they would probably do that using a proxy, as they did with SCO. Their increased involvement in Open Source organizations means that they will be taken as a member of the Open Source community when they speak with national legislators. This is terrible for us, because it means they'll be able to short-circuit our work to protect Open Source from software patents by speaking to government as an insider in our communities. They've been lobbying for a software patent treaty between Europe and the U.S. (part of the "anti-piracy treaty" currently under discussion but not available to the public) which could make criminal prosecution a new tool against suspected patent infringers on both sides of the Atlantic. And because this is a treaty rather than legislation, it effectively takes the question out of public debate and just leaves it to congress to approve or reject the entire treaty. Want to guess how many people in congress want to be seen as "for piracy"? Any non-trivial software program infringes patents, Open Source or not. We're still in rather deep trouble regarding this, if anyone wants to push the issue. And their general counsel made clear, in a recent speech at OSBC, that they're still not willing to put down the patent "gun".
So, I can't say I think this is a good thing.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
1. Extend
2. Embrace
3. Extinguish
4. Profit!
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
Mr. Burns: Smithers I'm thinking about donating some money to the orphanage... when pigs fly!
(Smithers and Burns both laughing)
(Homer's BBQ pig flies past the window)
Smithers: Will you be making that donation now, sir?
Mr. Burns: Eh, I'd rather not.
In other news-
- Hell froze over
- The moon turned blue
- George Bush renounced violence as the pathway to peace
- Oh, and Microsoft "embraced" open-source software
In the press release, Bill Gates was quoted as saying, "This is going to hurt you a lot more than it will me."
This oughta be more fun than a barrel fulla monkeys. It ain't over till the fat lady sings ... just wait until other shoe drops... yadda yadda.
O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
More likely this is a move to build OSS and interoperability cred they'll need in court if/when they feel the need to pull a SCO against Linux.
Apple will never use Intel processors.
Dell will never ship AMD processors.
Dell will never ship Linux.
These things happen. People can change their minds. Microsoft is still doing evil and illegal things on a regular basis (like last year, offering illegal bribes to get Nigeria to drop Mandriva) but not every single employee at Microsoft is evil. Not every department is necessarily evil.
Microsoft has been doing a number of reasonably good things for a while now, and everyone keeps suggesting they are part of some scheme and conspiracy. People shouldn't be completely shocked by this act.
I think it is just a continuation of a new trend towards being slightly less evil. Every time Microsoft opens more protocols, releases more code, and tries to work with the OSS community, instead of acting like children and calling names, I think the community should encourage Microsoft to continue the trend of migrating to a more open company.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
The sky is full of flying pigs! ... or... I'm hallucinating. What's the catch?
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
It's a trap!
Particles, stuff that matters.
An upcoming Debian release!
So they're making it easier to serve content that is developed on MS platforms and works best/only on MS platforms above standard content?
I was bullshitting with my friends and said that I think Microsoft has two years left before it's no longer the leader of the operating system market. I said it with no real insight or evidence, I just claimed it and I bet 10 dollars against it.
218 days left... maybe I'll get to go on Oprah or something and show off my framed ten dollar bill. This slashdot entry is officially almost kind of like proof that I said what I did a little bit.
As big as this news is, assuming it's credible and lasting, I'm completely unsurprised.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
They have joined the Apache Software Foundation as a Platinum member(at $100K USD a year)
They just bought out ISO. I wonder if this is getting a start on ASF?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
No Microsoft havent become "Mr Nice Guy [TM]" overnight, they have just realised their old marketing methods don't work anymore and they need a new gig. With Apple (I dont like Apple personally but I can respect them) gaining market share I can just imagine the Microsoft marketing dept looking at the ever growing FOSS code base and fanboys and wondering, how do we get a bit of that action, easy become a paying member.
April Foo..hmm, no
... microsoft = evil) ... the world makes sense again.
I don't get it.
All my explanations about how microsoft doesn't care about anything except taking money aren't going to make sense anymore...
Oh wait, somebody mentioned "it's a trap"...
Ah... (my head is clearing now
(Man, they're getting good at this)
They can release the source code to Windows 98se.
Wait...they can't do that..it would tank Vista sales.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
they have pulled infiltration stunts before. infiltrated organizations, boards to cripple their functionality.
Read radical news here
The real reason they are doing this is to make the option of running Apache on Windows more appealing. This way Windows has an easier time gaining ground on Linux in the server market.
Like others have said, embrace and extend typically leads to something getting extinguished. They are not to be trusted. Sorry.
microsoft uses GNU?
They don't have any software patents ;)
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/24/1458215
Steve Ballmer is actually a robot. I know, you're thinking that seems pretty unlikely, but there's more.
He's a robot built by RMS, and he was designed to infiltrate Microsoft and covert it to Open Source from within. It seems to have worked completely, with Bill Gates handing over control of the company, and is perhaps RMS' biggest success ever.
Reportely, RMS developed this plan after watching several Borg related episodes of Star Trek while on some kind of psychedelic mushroom.
Have they renounced their "200 patents" claim? Have they stopped bundling, tying, and bullying vendors?
No.
All this other stuff is largely irrelevant. OSP is legally meaningless, the LGPL doesn't require Microsoft's blessing, and joining the Apache foundation could be as sinister as their ISO efforts.
Microsoft seems to have been moving a little in the right direction, but they are still far away from being trustworthy or respectable.
Hold me.
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <windowsxp.h>
#include <bloat.h>
#include <shiny.h>
#ifdef MEDIA_INDUSTRY_PAYS_US // Forgive us, we're lowly captive coders. We // like penguins. Everyone likes penguins. They're // cute and cuddly. When my shackles chafe, I like // to imagine that I had a penguin to hug. ....
#include <drm.h>
#endif
#ifdef BALLMER_NEEDS_NEW_CHAIR
#include <bsod.h>
#endif
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Slashdot really needs an Admiral Akbar icon because this story just screams "IT'S A TRAP!"
no dice. LAMP has grown so big that nothing can topple it anymore. many of you are probably not aware, because you are working in old school corporate positions, or even locked into ms shops, however there are bazillions of web sites, estores, portals, communities being hosted on throngs of LAMP servers throughout countless shared hosts both small and big in size throughout the net.
it has grown to such an extent that the scripts have become expertise fields in themselves. they are asking for "joomla experts" in elance, "oscommerce module programmers", "somephpscript api coders". not even plain straight 'php programmer'. you are already expected to have a good grip of php, mysql. these sub expertise fields can really vary in hourly rates that are accepted throughout the markets. as a php coder you may able to get $15 an hour if you're decent (even with the $3/ hour indians get), yet an "oscommerce expert" can fetch you over $20/hour, and other niche stuff can even fetch higher. and thats all telecommuting, not even talking about on-site positions.
im telling these to let you know that even the 'people's community' facet of LAMP has grown to be a market in itself, specializing into subfields. not only that, but as many medium businesses start to adopt lamp, we are increasingly being asked larger scale projects every day.
you cant match the will of the people. it has gone WAY larger than anyone can have a hack at.
but thats microsoft. they may not be able to hack at it, but they may definitely try to dent it. thats their philosophy.
Read radical news here
They let you see their code, and then claim that your subsequent code is an infringement. Don't look at anything that isn't properly labeled.
What?
Maybe this had to do with Bill Gates' departure from Microsoft?
Just wondering...
There are absolutely no links on the article to any sort of announcement, internal blog post, PHP mailing list, bug system, anything.
So my response is: wait for an announcement elsewhere.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
All the points you mention may be valid, but I think that's not the most important issue here. It doesn't matter what are Microsoft's future plans, the important thing is that they have seen the need for a major change in tactics. This means they are starting to see the possibility of defeat.
Perspective is a funny thing. If you consider that they had $63 billion in 2004, it means they are losing $10 billion/year. Well, not exactly losing, since most of that has been paid to stockholders as dividends, but the fact remains that they *have* to use their cash pile to keep their market value from plunging, operational profits alone won't do it.
Bruce, any updates about an AMBE replacement and the Codec2.org project that came out of Dayton?
Thanks.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
August fools!
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
They're not some James Bond villain. They're not evil. If there was money in cleaning up the oceans, sponsoring the arts and giving everyone a puppy, they'd do that.
Companies are not evil. They are trying to make as much profit as possible, that's all. And since it's profitable to eliminate competition, to push for their standards to be accepted and to sneak their people into the boards of companies they want to take over, that's what they do. That's not because they're evil, that's because they're out to make a profit.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Dear Apache Foundation,
You may want to run smallpox cultures on the yearly $100k from Microsoft. Also, screen carefully any code submissions from the aforementioned containing fragments such as: "Diseases.smallpox.infect(apache_foundation);".
I can't remember the last time I forgot anything.
When I say old, I remember when we were building home made paper tape readers to load programs that were too long to load in on front panel switches or keypads.
Microsoft will not do anything that does not benefit Microsoft in some way. Some may want to believe that there are good people or departments within Microsoft and that may be so but it is the whole of Microsoft that you must beware of.
If they've submitted patches, fixes or extensions to any open source project, these need to be inspected in fine detail and compared to their current patent portfolio. Any submission they've made has to be checked for exactly what license they've used and whether they'd made any changes in it. Then, once they've been checked twice by two independent groups for software or legal traps, they need to be checked again by someone else that wasn't involved in the first two checks.
(personal opinion, it would likely be better to simply discard their contributions whether in the form of cash or code.)
So I can convert it one file with a bunch of simple text config lines.
e.g. DRM_enable="NO"
Windows-Firewall_enable="NO"
Office-2007_reduce_to_sane_options="100"
Crash_screen_color="PURPLE"
XP_driver_compat="YES"
and so on, kind of like a really long rc.conf file.
Meh. That means nothin'. You don't know of any charismatic, quasi-Messianic personalities rising to power at the moment, do you?
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
MS has seen it's own demise coming and perhaps realises that the time of making a huge profit from Os's is coming to an end with the advance of the linux desktop in recent times. Gates has left and Vista is not working out for them as well as it might so I see a couple of potential possibilities here..
1/ They are going to drop their current kernel and fork linux like apple did with BSD. To paraphrase, it might be easier to fork linux than to fix windows. Then, get their developers to work on OS stuff and sell their version of it, without all the bugs that can come with OSS stuff (openoffice.org i'm looking at YOU! ;o) )
2/They are going to open-source their stuff so the community can improve it and then close it up again. They may not open-source vista but they may do with all prior OS's
Just my 2c and YMMV
Even if they finally turned around and will finally work with everyone else with no dark agenda for the future, old-timers like me (i.e. more than 25-30 years old) will not trust them until they have really proven themselves.
However old timers like me (who programmed computers that used vacuum tubes, not just for the switches, but for the DIODES in the logic), remember when IBM had much the same reputation for closed tech and predatory behavior as Microsoft does now.
After SCO vs. IBM (and for a while before) there's no question where IBM is on the issue now. Wouldn't it be nice if, now that Bill is going away, Microsoft is starting to take a few steps down the same path?
(Then again, perhaps an "itsatrap" tag is appropriate...)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Bashing MSFT is a favorite part time on Slashdot. Despite the facts that Vista sucks and Office still sucks, MSFT has people who are smart enough to figure out that if you cannot win the war, you should join the opponent. MSFT has a division that is in charge of open license products and part of the initiative will be highlighted at TechReady (next week in Seattle).
Will everything be Open Source? I highly doubt that. But if MSFT shows enough effort and releases enough software products that are open to modification then MSFT wins in many ways: To develop something you must use some sort of a program. MSFT will give you trial version and sell you good ones. More developers, more sales.
It is possible to make money on Open Source software. I assume you can do something like software + service so people who write software will need to get tools somewhere, which brings me back to the first point.
Corporations love agreements with vendors. The problem with stuff that you can find on Sourceforge is the fact that if there is a problem, you may not get timely support. And support is what our corporate overlords love. That's why RedHat still makes money on subscriptions while anybody can download CenOS for free.
Good PR.
Also, looking at Linux and all beautiful things Open Source generates new ideas for MSFT. These ideas can turn into products just like the latest cross-platform monitoring software, System Center Operations Manage. The company swims in money and it can afford releasing some software for free. It is sort of like T.Boone Pickens investing into alternative energy. He may be pro-alternative energy and pro-energy independence, but make no mistake: He will make money on it :)
I can assure you that any corporation has one thing in mind: Make profit. There various approaches to the schema, but the main goal is the same. You have to make money to please the investors or to enrich the founding members. Things like "good" and "evil" become irrelevant once profit and money is involved.
MSFT pays well, provides decent benefits and offers world class working environment. Yeah, there are a couple of nuts who like to drop an iPhone into a blender an then show the results to the public, but overall most of the employees are just people with _some_ paycheck mentality. The same can be said about employees of other big companies like Google, Cisco, IBM, etc.
Each of these is a furtherance of Microsoft's strategy to get people away from Linux and instead to write their open source applications for the Windows platform.
A real embracement of open source would be Microsoft helping apps run on Linux, or Microsoft expanding the so called Open Specification Promise so that it extended to non-commercial developers and truly respected the GPL.
Ars Technica do for you?
Complete with a link to a short interview with Sam Ramji (no, unfortunately not he of Evil Dead fame)
he says: "It is not a move away from IIS as Microsoft's strategic web server technology. We have invested significantly in refactoring and adding new, state-of-the-art features to IIS, including support for PHP. We will continue to invest in IIS for the long term and are currently under way with development of IIS 8.
It is a strong endorsement of The Apache Way, and opens a new chapter in our relationship with the ASF. We have worked with Apache POI, Apache Axis2, Jakarta, and other projects in the last year, and we will continue our technical support and interoperability testing work for this open source software."
As these events pick up pace 2012 is not gonna be doomsday.
It's gonna be the year of the Linux desktop.
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
Still we don't have the 1% of desktop market.
Even if they released some LGPL code, that does not make them any better. What if they release their version of Apache, with the marketing power they have, it could become the most used, and they would be in control. (And they could very well give non-free install packages, what if people starts to use them?)
That would be bad!
1) Value your freedom, or you will lose it!
2) Go on and make money, but you always have to
respect my freedom.
It sounds like Darth wader saying "Luke come to the dark side, or else I will bring the dark side to you"
Why is this surprising? In yesterday's investors meeting Ballmer stated they'll be investing (read: losing) billions into their online biz every year. $100k is chum change that falls out of Bill pocket every minute, yet it gives them another week of buzz and gets all the slashdotter's panties tied in knot. We all know MSFT studies and copies every successful open source project there is. Now they can steal the code openly. Wake me up when they contribute something back in GPL or donate $100m or $1b.
He's usually the guy who drops the 'gothca' in a speech after making a deal.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
finally play in the same room?
Is nothing.
Its a cheap 'feel good' advertisement for them, nothing more.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
This is clearly the solution to today's MS's woes, Who would companies trust to support their Windows systems if they were open? Microsoft or a third party two bits firm?
What would be the most used Windows distro? Microsoft's or any other?
Software is services and support. The sooner MS realizes this and embraces and genuinely extends technology, the sooner we will forgive all their sins and welcome them to the open ecosystem.
Yeah, hell freezing over would be nice as well.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Heeelllooo!
Their cash reserves are depleted, and they would equal zero if their nonsensical buy out of Yahoo went through.
And the market is speaking, their share price has been pretty much flat (i.e. has lost value in real terms) since the dot com bubble burst.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The 23 billion would go out on thin air if they could get Yahoo with their dirty paws.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The British killed millions (just in Kenya 1 million natives died during rebellions prior to independence).
This nonsense about how civilized the British were while oppressing other peoples has got really to stop, it has no base in any credible evidence.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I would not work for $20/hour.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Dear Open Source Community,
We were wrong and we're sorry. As a token of our apology, here's a nice big wooden horse.
Sincerely,
Microsoft
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
Apache is the most popular web server program in the world. So, it would make sense for Microsoft to try to implement it in their Microsoft Server series in order to boost sales.
Since no one I know thinks it is worth buying.
-ted
Everyone is right to be suspicious. This is a distinctly un-Microsoft thing to do. But it is a little odd that this happens just a couple of weeks after Gates' last day. I know we all like to think as Ballmer as a crazy bastard, but it's still possible that perhaps Gates was holding Ballmer back from making some un-Microsoft-like decisions. Don't forget, Gates has a history of hating open-source, even before Microsoft. It's too out of the question to think that Ballmer's hatred of open-source is just a reflection of what Gates wanted him to believe.
i am reminded of the parable of the fisherman and the hungry fish.
the fish trusted what the fisherman said and became the fisherman's dinner.
given microsoft's history and actions, why believe what it says over what it does?
me. --a by-product of public education
Don't expect big changes here. It is part of their Win2k8 server strategy - they just want all open source application stacks performing well on Windows 2008. They did this for PHP, JBoss and now they're trying to get Apache stuff working. It is definitely NOT a good thing for us. Microsoft will have a server system which will be able to run BOTH open source stacks and their .NET stuff well. Linux will run open source stacks well but NOT .NET stuff (forget MONO, it will always be a catch up game).
So, we now see embrace & extend phase all at once. Extinguish will come later.
During much of the time I was at HP - hired to be an Open Source leader first and an HP employee second - I knew about this and had to keep it secret. It was a pretty big hardship for me, obviously I felt I was being disloyal to my own community. I'm pasting it in here today so that we don't forget Microsoft's previous intentions toward Apache. - Bruce
From: Campbell, Gary [mailto:gary.campbell@hp.com]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 7:27 PM
To: Stallard, Scott J; CTO Office Directs; Chaffin, Janice; Denzel, Nora; McDowell, Mary; Elias, Howard; Fink, Martin R; Becker, Rick (ISS); Beyers, Joe Cc: Blackmore, Peter; Robison, Shane
Subject: Microsoft Patent Cross License - Open Source Software Impact
Microsoft Patent Cross License - Open Source Software Impact
Today we agreed on a new patent cross license with Microsoft that protects HP in the short term, but it has significant impact on HP's use of Open Source software in the long term. More importantly, we now understand that Microsoft is about to launch legal action against the industry for shipping Open Source software that may force us out of using certain popular Open Source products. We need to create a cross-HP staffed program to understand the implication by product group and to provide the short term and long term steerage. I'll hook up with Martin tomorrow and start planning next steps for a cross-HP planning team.
Background:
HP is we believe, protected by our previous cross license for patents filed by Microsoft up to June of 2001, to ship open source software that violates Microsoft patents that was developed or shipped prior to today. This means that we can freeze on today's open source functionality and we are protected.
The new cross license does not protect us against new Microsoft patents filed after June 2001 against new open source product functionality shipped or created after today. So we have a two year window before HP has exposure on new Microsoft patents against new open source functionality, but we have exposure because of the MAD clause in the GPL if Microsoft attacks another entity with existing patents. See next section.
Open Source Software is described as a license that follows the intent and process of GPL or GPL lite. Additionally several major products are explicitly called out as not protected by the cross license, such as Samba, Wine, KDE, Gnome, Apache, Sendmail, and Linux.
Microsoft's Intentions:
Microsoft could attack Open Source Software for patent infringements against OEMs, Linux distributors, and least likely open source developers. They are specifically upset about Samba, Apache and Sendmail. We believe Samba is first, and they will attempt to prove it isn't covered by prior patent cross as a so called "clone" product carve out in the previous agreement.
OEMs that don't have a cross(like SUN), or OEMs like HP that they force a change in their cross license to exclude open source software are probably the first target. Intel, Red Hat, SuSE, UBL, Oracle are probably in the first wave as well.
IBM we don't know what the status of termination of their Microsoft cross license is. They could be protected by their previous OS/2 deals?
Mutually Assured Destruction Clause:
But it probably doesn't matter, because the GPL license has a mutually assured destruction clause in section 7, if anyone is sued over a patent infringement, no one is licensed under the GPL to ship GPL-ed products. This is probably what Microsoft intends to do.
Basically Microsoft is going to use the legal system to shut down open source software, and for all of its cleverness, the GPL makes it fairly easy unless a white knight steps in.
Best guess on the timing, this fall when they are finished settling with DOJ and the states.
Industry Reaction:
At this point we have no information on who would defend open source with
Bruce Perens.
The cake is a lie!
has supported open source software for quite a while in various forms. Everyone likes to talk about Microsoft as if it were trying to destroy Linux and open source... but I've never heard someone who worked there say that, and I know plenty, and had even interned there in the past.
The idea that Microsoft is the enemy of open source has more to do with the fact that some well known members of the open source community have used scary stories about the evils of Microsoft to rally people around them. Microsoft is the "other," that which is meant to inspire fear so that people will give up their critical reasoning and blindly follow a leader *cough* Richard Stallman *cough*. It's a pretty common trick. You might have seen is practiced in politics before.
Micrisoft does compete with Linux to some degree, as they compete with many products on many fronts, but Microsoft's main competitor is not Linux. The story of the epic battle between Linux and Windows, Open Source and Enslaved Software, Freedom Loving Nerds and Corporate Goons, is just a story. Software is a business, not a political ideology. 95% of the people in the industry read the evangelistic crap on Slashdot and roll their eyes.
jayagopaldaz writes:
i say optimism is something other that "maybe microsoft will finally do something right". that is just naivety.
in this case optimism means: sure, microsoft may have come up with some strategy to get more leverage by showcasing a superficial alliance with open source communities, but at the end of the day, the open source community is somewhere on the order of thousands of times more competent than microsoft when it comes to intelligently evolving.
if microsoft ever releases something with open source, the community will intelligently and dynamically accommodate whatever is worth accommodating.... kind of like eating something. you shit out the useless stuff and turn the rest into part of your own body.
alternatively, if you compare microsoft to a disease, and the open-source community to the host (great metaphor if i may say so myself) then the battle at hand is whether the disease kills the host, or the host either annihilates the disease or adapts to be able to co-exist with it. in the latter case, the open-source community will become ever-more powerful.
we just brace ourselves and see this for what it is: a war between good and evil... bring it on!
I'm 42 and the near death star robots have yet to claim me, so I can't be old either.
Oh hang on, there's someone at the door...
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
Microsoft also recently donated $32,000 to support the Sage Mathematics Software Project, which produced GPL'd free software. See the financial contributors list.
-- William (Sage developer)
It's a shame I'm in here so late... half way thru reading this summary I was ready to post.
"In before people find some way this still makes MicroSoft even more evil and capable of eating your children"
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
Hell to freeze over...
Duke Nukem Forever to be released...
Im a gnome user, but, tried 4.1 and it was the biggest crock. Nothing of interest except useless vista type eye candy. Lots of work required. I know Gnome is not perfect but at least i know how to make it work - its designed that way...
if microsoft ever releases something with open source...
But, Doctor Evil, that already happened. Microsoft has been shipping Interix, which uses GCC and includes the source to their mods, for years. They've also released several bits of very Windows specific code (like installers) under an even more open license than the LGPL.
Mister Bigglesworth is unhappy when Doctor Evil is lazy.
Think about it. They monopolized the os and the office market and then stiffeled innovation in both markets for at least eight to ten years. That gave oss the time to catch up.
If there would have been competition I suppose we could talk to our operating systems now and they would read everything that came into range of their web cams. I mean look at OS/2 and Windows 95. Vista is the first os that has a gui that is a little different from that of Windows 95. Imagine the innovation if they would have plowed ahead at the speed they had in the early 90s when there was still competition. Look at the difference between Windows 3.1 and OS/2. When did BeOS come out?
At that speed I can't imagine oss keeping up on the desktop.
Maybe on the server. But with so much competition on the desktop who knows what would have been on the server.
So to all those that know of the political implications of closed vs. open source at least give Microsoft the nod. Maybe we lost a couple years of innovation (I mean who knows how much we really lost, I am just blowing steam, nobody really knows what could have been), but we gained freedom.
a well-established business model which works
You mean the one Gates copied from the Mafia?
you had me at #!
Bill Parish has something to say about MS' financials.
you had me at #!
Microsoft could give all their money to me tomorrow (and I hope they do!)
You'd go hand it back to everyone they stole it from?
Seriously, money isn't everything unless you're as sociopathic as Gates.
you had me at #!
MS is not only uncivilised, it's one of the greatest contemporary threats to civilisation. However, human beings have a knack for routing around damage; Microsoft, long irrelevant, are increasingly ignored...
you had me at #!
I keep reading even on the most MS friendly blogs/IT sites one thing: "Do what Apple dared to do, switch to Unix!"
Wonder if such a radical thing would happen. They had a Unix license, they are automatically experienced in Unix thanks to shipping really big selling stuff to OS X , even Leopard the most picky OS of all times...
Don't let how dated Xenix is fool you, see what the most modern Unix Desktop says on boot (for Mach) kernel[0]: Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
being willing to do anything legal to make a buck isn't good. It's pretty evil.
C'mon, that's half of the American way! The other half is of course doing illegal stuff for a buck, which MS never shied from, and if nobody cares in the DoJ, we can still hope the EU isn't going to tolerate it.
Remember: Money is EVERYTHING! How you get it doesn't matter. - Gates' credo, in its essence.
you had me at #!
The real reason they are doing this is to make the option of running Apache on Windows more appealing.
Not sure how this makes running Apache more "appealing" on Windows. I was under the impression that the Apache web server already ran fairly well on Windows. The code MS was donating was to the PHP project; the only thing they've given the ASF is money.
Nevertheless, I think I see your larger point about being wary of Microsoft's intentions. They certainly have a lot of ground to make up to win people's trust, especially with the debacle of the OOXML fast-track process.
However, I think what we're seeing with these OSS moves is that some of the new technical leadership MS has brought on board -- in particular, Ray Ozzie -- are beginning to turn the ship around. Better interoperability is truly in everyone's best interest. It vastly increases the size of the pie for MS products, especially in the larger, international market.
I think people like Ozzie "get" this in that fundamentally important, engineering sort of way that can override marketing's objections. I'd like to see where this goes, to "trust, but verify", in the words of a recent politican.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
This is just Microsoft patting the dog on the head and saying "nice doggy" while looking for a large stick to beat it to pulp with the other hand.
They just dont want to be left alone as the only company not doing open source at the same time as they work full throttle in finding ways to rein in and put a leach on the open source monster.
HTTP/1.1 400
Naw - that quick freeze will soon thaw so enjoy it while it lasts.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
Read Ballmer's message to the troops -- his selected targets are Apple and Google, not FOSS. That is a calculated strategy, not an awakening. The man is very deluded, but he ain't stupid -- he knows that he can't take on the world, but he can aim at a couple of big bears that have started to take over his forest.
Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
You can't "buy" a membership in the Apache Software Foundation, and corporations cannot become members. As has been blogged elsewhere, El Reg has its terminology wrong on this one.
Microsoft has agreed to a platinum level sponsorship of the Apache Software Foundation. If you browse to the page, you'll see that the benefits of sponsoring, even at that level, consist of a logo and a press release.
You can't buy a membership in the ASF. The only way to influence the ASF is to show up and talk code. Anyone can join the mailinglists and start contributing patches, and everyone who contributes a substantial amount of code signs a license agreement to clear the IP. If folks contribute code of consistent quality, they become committers. As they show their interest in the project surpasses their day to day circumstances (like affiliation), they are invited to the Project Management Committee. Show that you have the interests of the foundation at heart, and you'll likely be invited to become a member and get to vote in board elections. That's how it works. Membership can be earned, but not bought.
-- Sander Temme - Member, Apache Software Foundation
What Would the Fab Five Do?
Areed.
Microsoft didn't get here on the buttermilk, they ARE tricky.
Pay attention: over years they fought against the OpenSource-Community, but they've learned...
For each totally cool app. Microsoft released, the Community did the same 3 times oftener, not that huge ones but more flexible.
Microsoft sat in their chamber and built and devd -
imagine what could happen to us, if they should consider keeping track of current development, picking code from the Community and using it to enhance their soft- and hardware, getting windows compatible to everything, gathering the best code on the market.
Regards,
Flo
(post scriptum: ever thought of the story of trojan horse or heard of a wolf in sheep's clothing? No the World isn't going down, but this could have terrible consequences; stay careful, please!)
I have been wondering what would happen if MS decided to Embrace and Extend Linux. If they produced MS Linux, made their MS Office suite compatible with just MS Linux (and still closed source), what variety of Linux would the typical user buy and run? Microsoft has the biggest name in software, anything they adopt or produce has a massive advantage in gaining acceptability because it has the MS monolith behind it and common recognition. It would end up leaving the rest of the linux distros in the dust.
Yes, they would lose out on OS revenue, but with the success (sic) of Vista, thats probably not as much of a factor as it might have been previously. Office on the other hand is definitely their mainstay and could continue to be so.
This would mean they were no longer competing on the Operating System front at all, just on the Office Suite front where they still have a clear advantage. They would be seen to actively support OSS and at once stifle a lot of opposition from the OSS community, they would eliminate a lot of the security problems that plague their previous versions of their software and they could make contributions to the WINE project to ensure that backwards compatibility was assured.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
I read that as a love of 'ass'.
Well, today they sponsor..
Tomorrow they pull out their armada of software patents and find all the Apache projects infringing...
The next day: Welcome to Microsoft Windows Live Apache... New Projects:
Apache HTTPD is now named:
Microsoft Windows Live Apache IIS Server 2010, [only $1,200/month for a 2-CPU unlimited license, or $100/month for a 5000 page views/day license...]
Apache ANT now named: MS Apache ANT
APR now named: Microsoft Visual Apache C Runtime 2009
MS Apache JWS
MS Cayenne
MS Jakarta
IIS 2010 .Net Mod_perl
IIS 2010 .Net Mod_python
... ...
s/bum/canary/