iPhone Tethering App Released, Killed In 2 Hours

tjhayes writes "The iPhone App Store released an application called NetShare that allowed the iPhone to tether a laptop to the internet. It was priced at a $10 one-time fee. After being available for approximately 2 hours, the application has disappeared from the apps store. What exactly are AT&T/Apple trying to accomplish here?" They are trying to prove what is wrong with DRM, and demonstrate why hackers want to jailbreak the iPhone.

Comments

I got mine

[Anonymous Coward]

it works

Re:I got mine

[sqlrob]

Until Apple decides to blacklist it and erase it off the phone on an iTunes update.

Re:I got mine

[Richard_at_work]

Then they will be getting a letter from my lawyer regarding the £5.99 I paid for the app.

Re:I got mine

[ROBOKATZ]

Then they will give you a refund.

Re:I got mine

[mysidia]

Then they get a letter about their malicious interference causing damages in the amount of $(cost of obtaining an additional wireless internet connection for the PC and ongoing subscription costs for the additional connection).

Since that is the least-costly alternative, to use of the purchased product that they illegally interfered with.

Re:I got mine

[sqlrob]

"So sorry, the OS update broke it, nothing we can do"

Re:I got mine

[cayenne8]

Too bad. One of the main reasons I've not gotten and iPhone yet...is the lack of tethering ability.

Re:I got mine

[Dan541]

Illegaly interfered with?

If you make an update you agree to the changes that come with it.

Re:I got mine

[Anonymous Coward]

empty threat.

next.

Re:I got mine

[mysidia]

If you make an update you agree to the changes that come with it.

That's true only if you were prompted for approval before the update was applied.

If not simply refuse the update, but most likely Apple would make the update silent and automatic.

Re:I got mine

[Dan541]

I'm not farmiliar with the iPhone, what options do you have for updates? can you turn them off or do apples force them upon you?

Re:I got mine

[Frosty Piss]

Then they will be getting a letter from my lawyer regarding the £5.99 I paid for the app.

No, they will not. Stop strutting like a chicken and making a lot of noise, you'll never do anything and you know it.

Re:I got mine

[Opportunist]

And here I was, getting an Apple to get away from the troubles Windows gave me...

Re:I got mine

[bigpicture]

If he does sue, then your remark is libelous, and then he can sue you.

Re:I got mine

[tokamoka]

No, they will not. Stop strutting like a chicken and making a lot of noise, you'll never do anything and you know it.

It's quite easy to write a letter you know. In addition, applause rather than ridicule is what's deserved in this case. Don't be a hater.

Re:I got mine

[sjames]

He might take action, but the way things seem to be these days, most will just yell out "Thank you Sir! May I have another?"

Re:I got mine

[wealthychef]

they are optional and you are always asked before updating, like all Apple updates.

Re:I got mine

[Frosty Piss]

It's quite easy to write a letter you know. In addition, applause rather than ridicule is what's deserved in this case. Don't be a hater.

He said his lawyer would write it. So he's going to spend £100+ to address a £6 issue? And Apple will almost certainly simply ignore that letter, thus requiring further lawyer costs? No, I don't think so.

Re:I got mine

[CountBrass]

Updating requires active intervention by you i.e. you click a button in iTunes and it downloads the update and then applies it to your iPhone. Exactly the same as iPod updates. You don't update your iPhone directly.

Re:I got mine

[CountBrass]

I assume you have some evidence that Apple has tried this trick in the past, i.e. deliberately made a change to break a third party app? And no, a third party app that's broken because it used an unpublished API doesn't count.

Or did you just pull that comment out of your arse?

Re:I got mine

[Scudsucker]

What if he's got money? If I was rich I wouldn't hesitate two seconds on sicking my lawyer(s) on a BS ticket/fee/law that annoyed me.

Re:I got mine

[Frosty Piss]

What if he's got money? If I was rich I wouldn't hesitate two seconds on sicking my lawyer(s) on a BS ticket/fee/law that annoyed me.

People say this sort of thing, but it's not really true. People with money did not accumulate it by spending 200$ - 300$ to get a 10$ refund check.

Re:I got mine

[tokamoka]

What if he's got money? If I was rich I wouldn't hesitate two seconds on sicking my lawyer(s) on a BS ticket/fee/law that annoyed me.

People say this sort of thing, but it's not really true. People with money did not accumulate it by spending 200$ - 300$ to get a 10$ refund check.

I know many people with money who would do just that - especially if they felt themselves morally wronged by something. Aside from this, perhaps he has a tame lawyer a friend. Not so uncommon. Anyway, thanks for your opinion on his statement.

Re:I got mine

[Anonymous Coward]

I know many people with money who would do just that

No you don't. Stop playing the ass.

Re:I got mine

[Richard_at_work]

My lawyer already gets paid, a letter from him over this wouldn't cost me a penny.

What is the big deal?

[seann]

I believe it is against the EUL for developing applications on the iPhone.

You don't like their terms, don't use their product.

Re:What is the big deal?

[timmarhy]

we'll do more than not use it, we will continue to point out how such a retarded policy is wrong, and that's it's costing apple customers.

Re:What is the big deal?

[friendofthenite]

Whoever marked the parent 'redundant' should have there moderation rights removed. The comment addresses the question posed in the synopsis, and is entirely relevant, it just doesn't match the prevailing view of most Slashdotters. Another example of Slashdot moderators behaving as if they were voting for comments on Reddit.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Ed Avis]

You don't like their terms, don't use their product.

'Their' product? No, the phone belongs to the person who paid several hundred dollars for it. That's this concept we have called a 'sale'.

Re:What is the big deal?

[darjen]

Sure, you own the phone, but the app store belongs to apple. Apple is free to restrict whatever applications they want. You are also free to point out that you don't like their policy and try to convince people not to buy it.

Re:What is the big deal?

[erroneus]

Roger that! But when you do more than "not buy/use it" the fanboys (and girls) want to mod you as flamebait.

Apple is mostly image and branding. There is nothing Apple does that is unique. There is nothing in the iPhone that is unique. (You show me an iPhone, I'll show you a PalmOS phone and the major differences are fewer buttons/keys on the iPhone and more graphic intensive.) So what makes Apple better or different? It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?

When people at my office ask me about iPhone, I state where I see it falling short. You can't remove or replace the battery. So when the battery is useless, the phone is useless. That almost always gives people cause to think. But still 1 in 20 people will still say something like "I don't care! It's so cool!" I don't try to stand in their way either. If they can't see beyond the bling-bling, they aren't going to hear what I have to say about it.

Maybe the problem is all mine... I am just not as enthused by shiny stuff as other people are. I want it to work the way I want it to work and to use it the way I want to use it. If I can't, it's nothing short of an annoyance.

Re:What is the big deal?

[crmarvin42]

Apple is mostly image and branding

No one will argue with you that Image is very important to Apple.
No one will argue with you that Image is important to ANY company marketing to consumer.
The point where you'll get nasty responses is when you claim that Apple is Only, or Mostly image. I was a Windows fanboy in HS because of the Image of Apple products (overpriced, underpowered, niche, etc.). When I finally gave them a try is when I realized that the Image I had of Apple was actually being espoused by people who hadn't used a Mac in years, if ever. I made the switch because I don't have to fight with the OS.

You want to argue that the Windows OS's are easier to use, more stable, more intuitive/consistent? Fine, you can argue that point if you don't like looking silly.

You want to argue that PC's are cheaper than Mac's? You've got a more valid point here, Macs usually do come at a ~10% premium. I think the increase in usability and not having to spend that money on virus/spyware prevention makes up for the difference, but I can see the other point of view.

You want to argue that the iPhone does nothing special? Fine, I can concede that point as long as we ignore the whole "usability" issue. I currently have a phone that has most of the features that everyone raves about on the iPhone, but I've never used them. It doesn't even occur to me to use them because I feel like I need a PhD in computer science with a specialization in programing for imbedded devices to figure out how to use the damn features. You don't have that problem? Good for you but the general public shares my frustrations and seem to have been able to figure out the iPhone without so much as having to by an "iPhone for Idiot's" book.

If you insist that everyone with a different set of priorities and judgement calls is being bamboozled by

the bling-bling

, then you're just showing yourself to be myopic and condescending to those around you. Maybe you need to consider that the reason people aren't listening to your advise is that their priorities differ from yours and not that they are slaves to Apples marketing material.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't all the ipods also shipped with non-replaceable batteries? How many tens of millions of those have been sold so far... I am a windows user first and foremost and as far from an apple fanboy that you can get. i had a samsung blackjack before i got the phone 3g. the operating system is more stable and i cant actually do work on the phone thanks to the larger screen and full page browser. The apps, while most are pretty worthless, make the device fun to enjoy outside of the basic phone features. No one is ever going to have the perfect phone, but comparing this to the other phones I have had, treo 600, 700, blackjack, etc it is definitely the best so far.

Re:What is the big deal?

[phoomp]

Which is *exactly* why Apple decided to make the App Store the only way to get apps onto the iPhone. Fortunately, jailbreak offers us some more options for apps and an easier way of installing them.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Eustace Tilley]

What PalmOS phone has visual voice mail?

Re:What is the big deal?

[janopdm]

Apple is mostly image and branding. There is nothing Apple does that is unique. It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken? Maybe the problem is all mine... I am just not as enthused by shiny stuff as other people are.

I support your point, Zune is equally good than an iPod because they have the same functionallity. *grin*

Re:What is the big deal?

[silverdr]

There are other shortcomings of the iPhone. You could do much better than beating the dead horse of irreplaceable battery, which has been dead long before the first iPhone device hit the shelves. Hint 1: what is the percentage of the mobile phone users which use their phones longer than their batteries live? Hint 2: what is the percentage of those who do, which have a chance to actually buy a new (original) battery when they need it after a couple of years of phone usage? But of course - this is an old Jedi mind trick devised to fool people into thinking: OMG - I really can't replace the battery?? Uh-oh... it's so bad! - even if none of them have ever replaced any phone battery before, and even if in reality the other phones have practically the same "problem": the phones grow old much faster than the batteries these days and even if you want to buy a new battery after three-four years of phone usage , usually you find that the manufacturer does not supply them already for a year or two... Ever thought of it this way? Now - grab an iPhone, use it for a month (even if you really hate Apple) and come back with the list of real shortcomings - there is plenty of those but you won't find them if you keep babbling about the battery rather than taking the device for a spin.

Re:What is the big deal?

[gruntled]

A non-replaceable battery on your phone is a critical issue for those of us who use our cellphones frequently for business reasons. With my current phone, if I find myself on calls for four hours during during the day, and I'm worried about the battery running out of juice later in the afternoon, I can just slap in the spare, charged battery I lug around in my bag. I guess there are external chargers you can carry around and plug your iPhone into if you needed to, but then your phone rings and you're trying to do stuff with your cell plugged in to an external battery pack and whatnot.

A non-replaceable battery is just a poor design choice for a phone. It makes it much less functional for a lot of people.

The real deal killer for me is ATT. Not with a gun to my head. I need my telephone to ring when somebody calls me, not go into voice mail. I do carry an iPod touch, which I love, but if ATT offered a data only plan for people who weren't disabled, I'd grab an iPhone and sign up for that plan right away...

Re:What is the big deal?

[The Raven]

It's not that Apple's products have a feature-list that is notably superior. It's that their ease-of-use is notably superior. It's hard to measure 'ease of use'. You can't really quantify it. It's not like megapixels, gigabytes, or battery life... it doesn't really go down to numbers.

But Apple products tend to have no jagged edges... there are no common use cases where they are frustrating or annoying to use. Any product will have frustrating uncommon use cases, you can't avoid that... the battery is a good example.

Do you think the iPod succeeded just because people like Apple? Bullshit. It succeeded because it was better than the other players, and remains superior, if only by a slim margin, even today. Most of the other mp3 players have jagged edges that make them uncomfortable to use... a button that accidentally pauses the music if you have the player in your pocket... a stupid menu that takes 4 clicks to play music, but 2 to change contrast... a short battery life... too heavy... bad software...

It's not that Apple products are so superior in every way. It's that they have no strong weaknesses other than big price tags. No jagged edges. Removing jagged edges, removing frustrating use cases, is where Apple's design teams excel. It's their killer feature.

I'm not an Apple fanboy... I use Linux and Windows. I'm a gamer. The only Apple product I use is my wife's castoff 10GB iPod that I use as a USB drive. I know Apple products have flaws... nothing is perfect. And their brand image is part of the appeal. But brand appeal can't carry a bad product... their products are good, AND they have brand appeal. You can't stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

"how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?"

I've owned Palm based devices for a while, and I can safely say 'objective' is in the eyes of the beholder. I remember trading in my ancient newton for a Treo...no longer needed to wear cargo pants to use a mobile device (I started off with a MP100..then 120 and finally a 2100 before realizing I wanted something smaller not bigger). The Treo was nice...but unlike the Newtons, I couldn't change batteries. Big deal. I kept a pocket charger in my bag for the few times I've ever needed to plug it in.

Since this time, I've had several smart phones. The iPhone was only because I needed something so that I could transport my music with me without having two devices in my pocket. No other reason...I held off for months picking one up even though I had Apple credit that I've had sitting around for a while (and the fact that I occasionally consult for the company).

Subjectively, it syncs better than any other PMP that I've used. This is a biggie for me.

Subjectively, I wish it had a keyboard, but at the same time kept the same sized screen, but without changing the size of the sucker. Oh wait, this is an either / or. I do wish I could sync up an external keyboard like I could my old Palm (though that was a full sized one...I'd rather have a BT capable thumbie thing). Again, it is subjective.

Batteries? I've only run out of juice once. It was after two days of not charging and using edge quite a bit. I've never carried a change of batteries...I've always found it easier to just charge (I bought two extra cables for $8 and have a car adapter with USB built-in). Besides, an external battery (that can actually charge the device and you can unplug it after it is done) is only like $30 from Belkin (I believe...or one of those companies).

I replaced the battery in my iPod and it was pretty cheap ($25) and actually pretty easy. I looked up the instructions on how to replace the one in the iPhone before buying it, and while a LITTLE more complicated, it can be done at home with the tools supplied in the battery kit.

Objectively, I have options. The lack of a replaceable battery does not make one a fanboy by ignoring this fact.

Beyond that, it is all subjective. Don't discard the subjective though...I'm a former computer science / programmer that went back to school several years ago to go for a therapy based psychology PhD (midlife crisis thing...looking for substance and not just another line of code). The geek side says that all the specs are the same. The human side tells me that this is NOTHING like the rest. Guess what? We should be looking for subjective and not objective (and that's why I'm not going to argue against your subjective arguments). I thought the interface on the old Palms were HORRIBLE. It felt like using the old Win 3.1 interface...but that they had actually thought it was innovative. The iPhone...fluid. Gesturing that was hinted at in older experimental GUIs and then abandoned were refined and made useful (yeah, back in the day, I had used a few geeky interfaces for Linux or Win that when I realize that I could have kept my fingers on the keyboard, it would have been faster than memorizing a dozen movements). But it just worked on the iPhone...and it isn't like they included EVERYTHING...just enough to do what you need.

And subjectively, it is the idea that Apple didn't try to put everything into this device that makes it useful. It is limited...and that is a good thing. This was the problem with my Newton that was infinitely more laptop-like than my palm...it tried to be a portable computer after a while.

The only thing I've concerned myself with lately is that I do engage in some 'extreme' sports...and while it is nice to be able to be up 10 stories and pull out the device to get another angle on the right route to climb, it is too fragile. Been thinking of picking up a second one that is rugged and that I can strap to my ass and not worry about banging it u

Re:What is the big deal?

[lordmundi]

I couldn't agree more. As someone who has never had this emotional attachment to apple (or any other computer religion), I see all the die hard apple fans try to defend their actions even when it is obvious that they employ the same greedy evil tactics that have plagued the industry and limited consumer choice.

2 huge market successes that would allow them to change the "Microsoft" dynamic and really change things... and 2 colossal failures. Failures in that... they are just as greedy and employ the same evil, closed tactics... arguably more closed than anything from Microsoft.

IPOD... use my software... use my service... and sue anyone who tries make their hardware compatible with my service. The iPhone... get in bed with the company practically invented screwing the consumer and make decisions based around profits. Don't let consumers even install apps that me and the devil on my shoulder don't approve.

Wow... it's almost entertaining to see these Mac die hards try to defend actions like these.

You either support consumer choice, or you don't. Period. If you like the apple religion, fine. But don't try to pretend it is something it isn't. Then you just look... silly.

I'll be the first one to say that they make great products. I think, if they really let people do what they want with the things that they rightly own, then there would be no stopping them. They really do make great stuff.

Re:What is the big deal?

[dindi]

features that everyone raves about on the iPhone, but I've never used them. It doesn't even occur to me to use them because I feel like I need a PhD in computer science with a specialization in programing for imbedded devices to figure out how to use the damn features.

Hah, thank you. I own a Nokia e65, which is as expensive as an iPhone, but I simply do not feel like using these functions, because they suck with the interface provided...

I "accidentally" bought an iPhone (I had a site I had to format for iPhone so I had to get a phone), and after that I just kept the phone. Even though some features (such as net sharing with a laptop) are missing, I am still happier because YOU CAN USE THE DAMN THING .... unlike the 40 others ......

I also totally agree with your other points about Apple VS not apple, but I made the switch from Linux desktop (as I dropped Windows 10 years ago, even though I had to use it here and there)

Re:What is the big deal?

[CastrTroy]

I wouldn't say that most apple products have a big price tag. Sure you can get a cheaper MP3 player, but it's cheaper for a reason. Try to find one with comparable features and design and easy of use for the same price. It doesn't exist. Apple can charge a little more because their products are better. You can get a shuffle for $49 (1GB) or $69 (2GB), or a more fully loaded Nano for $149 (4GB) and $199 (8GB), which play video and everything. I'm not sure how you think that's overpriced.

Re:What is the big deal?

[nine-times]

So what makes Apple better or different? It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?

You're wrong. I don't know what you expect in terms of "objective" examples, but you're missing the point entirely. People don't like Apple products because of how the fell about Apple, they like Apple because of how they feel about Apple's products. And it's not really the "Oooooo shiney!" factor either.

I've always been a gadget freak. I've bought an inordinate number of computers in my life, some of which I didn't need at all (most of which I've built from parts). I've owned a number of Palms, and have been assigned Windows-based phones and Blackberries for work, and have serviced all of those devices as a helpdesk tech. With each of those devices, I was really excited to get them, and then over time I found myself leaving them at the office because, once the novelty wore off, they weren't really worth the trouble.

Lets start with Palm. I stopped bothering to keep up with their development a few years back when it became clear that there was no development going on. The OS is outdated, flakey, and slow. The web browser stinks, and is the definition of why people don't want to use a "mobile browser". Their e-mail client isn't much worth talking about, and instead of syncing with the email/calendar/contacts of the programs you use, they try to get you to use their crappy Palm Desktop.

Blackberry was a big step forward. It synced with Exchange, but needed some kind of specialty software to accomplish that (desktop redirector or Blackberry server). That was ok, though, because nothing else really provided that functionality at the time. The email client was plain text, but honestly I didn't mind much. Web browser wasn't anything much to speak of. So to sum up, it was the best PIM of the time when it first came out, but don't expect anything other than the PIM functions to be worth anything. Also, your Blackberry could be working and your Exchange server could be working, but there was always some kind of service in between coordinating between the two. If anything in there lost its connection (which it frequently did) then you stopped getting updates.

So when Windows-based phones started syncing directly with Exchange, I was eager to try those out. Sure enough the syncing was much more reliable, but the devices were slow and unreliable. They would crash frequently. I only used those on Verizon, so the upshot there was they were always loaded up with Verizon crap, and their tech support was always pushing us to use their syncing service instead of Exchange's native sync-- which caused us loads of problems. They also had a tendency to just stop working, the solution to which was to reset the device and set it up all over again.

The iPhone came out and I got one. I used to carry around a Windows mobile device, another cell phone (because I hated with Windows mobile device), and an iPod, and the iPhone replaced all 3. It was definitely less feature-rich than Windows (which has been fixed by the new firmware for everything I care about), but everything it did, it did without problems. I set up IMAP e-mail, and it worked without crashing and without fiddling with it. When e-mail came to my account, it came to my phone. There were no intermediate servers to worry about. The web browser was actually useable for normal websites. The PIM stuff synced through the cable to Outlook, and now it syncs over the air. AIM works fine.

The only problem I've had with the iPhone is that occasionally the battery runs out really quickly, but I've had that problem with every cell phone and laptop I've ever owned. Oh, and on the day the 2.0 firmware was launched, I was one of those unfortunate enough to upgrade right away, only to find that I had to reactivate my phone and the activation servers had crashed.

But other than that, it's been really

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

Fine, I can concede that point as long as we ignore the whole "usability" issue. I currently have a phone that has most of the features that everyone raves about on the iPhone, but I've never used them. It doesn't even occur to me to use them because I feel like I need a PhD in computer science with a specialization in programing for imbedded devices to figure out how to use the damn features. You don't have that problem? Good for you but the general public shares my frustrations and seem to have been able to figure out the iPhone without so much as having to by an "iPhone for Idiot's" book.

So you picked up a crappy phone. That doesn't mean the Iphone is the best phone, it means that your phone is a crappy phone. I could do the same argument for any phone, e.g., "I can't work out how to use my phone, therefore the Nokia XXX is much better than all other phones"

(I also doubt that "everyone raves" about them - maybe a subset of people on Slashdot who like Apple products, but haven't use mobile phones in a while, and are under the delusion that Internet access on phones is a new feature.)

Do you actually own an Iphone? Or are you seriously basing your argument solely on owning a crappy phone yourself, and being envious at all the Apple-fans on Slashdot who rave about the Iphone?

I use features such as browsing the web and email on my phone, and it's just a bog standard dirt cheap phone. Give us an example of somthing that's easier on the Iphone than all other phones? People throw around this assertion, but no one ever justifies it. Here's an example of objective UI feature comparison: The Iphone fails at basic UI functionality such as copy/paste.

Re:What is the big deal?

[DrgnDancer]

Well, there are lots of things about my iPhone that I like better than my old Treo. There are also a few things I don't like as much to be sure. I wish it had copy/paste, an SSH client, and the ability to tether would not go amiss. These are things I miss, but they are more that made up for or I wouldn't use the thing. (Less the lack of copy/paste) The user interface is way easier to use and I find myself fumbling around looking for stuff a lot less. The built in mail system (especially now that it handles multi-media mail) is a lot more useful, though I'll grant you that the Treo had some decent third party mail apps. I've never found one quite as nice as the iPhone Mail app. The App store is a remarkably convenient way to find applications, though that is part blessing, part curse. Manly though, is the web browser. Blazer, to be as polite as possible, sucked ASS. Opera never worked on my Treo, it loaded but would never run more than a second or two. Safari is so nice that it almost negates the lack of tethering. I use the web on my phone a lot. I used to do so on my Treo some, but on this phone I can always use it to track down a fact, find a picture someone needs to see or just while away the time at the Doctor's office.

Is the iPhone perfect? Definitely not, but it does almost every thing I want, and does it all really well. If a well thought out UI, and apps that do what they are intended to do is "image and style" then I suppose you could accuse Apple of being all image and style.

Re:What is the big deal?

[crmarvin42]

Buying applications

Re:What is the big deal?

[erroneus]

The facts that aren't subjective are objective. Saying something "sucks by comparison" isn't objective, it's subjective.

Without a doubt, every phone out there is locked down in some way or another. The iPhone is locked down in every single way imaginable, including where battery replacement is concerned. That's a huge deal.

Usable for normal web sites? I'm not saying that Flash is available for other phones, but Flash isn't available for iPhone and it never will be. It is perfectly powerful and capable of running it, but it doesn't fit within the lock-down policies for the iPhone.

I am not saying and have never said that the iPhone is not good technology. It is. But it's so tied up and locked down that using it only serves to remind me of what I can't do rather than what I can do. For god's sake there's nothing as simple (or as Apple-famous) as copy/cut and paste. Why did they leave it out? People want it. It's not there. You can't save a picture to your phone after you have received it in email. There's a rather long list of basic expectations that most people (including Apple fans) would like to see fulfilled that may never be simply because the interests of Apple and AT&T come before all others -- the consumer is second... or third if you consider the problem of not being able to remove the battery makes you eternally vulnerable to the eves-dropping problem of phones even when "is off."

Everything is very controlled. The root story here is that someone screwed up and let something USEFUL out and they pulled it.

The matter that really gets me is that the consumer wants a lot of what the iPhone is physically capable of. But in the name of controlling profits and selling more products and services, they will not allow the consumer what it wants or allow the consumer what it wants to do with the stuff they own. When a company tells me what I can't do with my stuff, I have to take issue with it. And not simply by not buying or not using it, but by telling people what I think about it.

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

It's that their ease-of-use is notably superior. It's hard to measure 'ease of use'. You can't really quantify it. It's not like megapixels, gigabytes, or battery life... it doesn't really go down to numbers.

Well that makes it easy!

So I claim that the Iphone has the worst UI. You can't claim I'm wrong, because as you say, it's hard to measure "ease of use", so when I claim there are much better phones, you can't prove me wrong on this issue.

But seriously, that it's unmeasurable is a myth put out by those who what to claim that there's something special about the Iphone. This argument would never work for any other company's product (imagine it: "Who cares about all the flaws in Windows - it just is better. It's better in ways we can't measure or quantify, it just is" - would that be accepted?)

UI is quantifiable in all sorts of ways, for example, explaining how a particular process is achieved on different phones, or by comparing features that might make a process quicker. E.g., how do I copy text from somewhere to somewhere else?

There are plenty of examples of quantifying user interface on operating systems. E.g., menus at the top of the screen (as in AmigaOS, MacOS) are better that those not at the top (as in Windows), or proportional scrollbars give a better visual representation than non-proportional scrollbars (as in classic MacOS), or up/down arrows next to each other on a scrollbar (as in AmigaOS) are quicker to access than those at opposite ends on the scrollbar (as in Windows). Anyone who claims that UI is inherently something we can't measure is just grasping at straws to claim that their favourite expensive product is better, and they fail anyway, because I can just as easily claim my dirt cheap phone has the better UI - and by your own rules, you can't claim I'm wrong, because UI is unmeasurable.

Do you think the iPod succeeded just because people like Apple? ... Most of the other mp3 players have jagged edges that make them uncomfortable to use... a button that accidentally pauses the music if you have the player in your pocket... a stupid menu that takes 4 clicks to play music, but 2 to change contrast... a short battery life... too heavy... bad software...

The Ipod was a decent product. This topic is about the Iphone. Furthermore, you contradict your own argument. You've provided numerous examples of why the Ipod was better. So much for "it's unmeasurable"! So where are the same reasons for the Iphone?

It's not that Apple products are so superior in every way. It's that they have no strong weaknesses other than big price tags.

[Leaving aside a few basic functionality that even cheap phones have such as copy/paste, Java, MMS, video recording, and it only just finally got 3G.] If you agree that the Iphone is not superior, and it has no major weaknesses either, then that's the point: it's just yet another phone, and there's nothing special about it. Lots of phones fall into this middle ground category

But brand appeal can't carry a bad product... their products are good, AND they have brand appeal. You can't stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.

I'm not the one with my head in the sand saying "You can't measure UI, it just is better".

Brand appeal is important - this is shown by the very fact that you tried to claim the Iphone is better be saying how the Ipod was better. Your logic is that they're both "Apple", therefore the Iphone must be good too. That's judging not by product, but by brand. Do you think the Iphone would be getting even a fraction of media coverage it gets, if it wasn't produced by Apple? Brand appeal is everything to Apple. Consider how Macs today are nothing to do with older Macs (different hardware, different OS), but no one says "Well, Apple had to ditch the old OS because they finally realised it was so awful), rather, they're all considered to be the same platform.

Re:What is the big deal?

[houghi]

'Their' product? No, the phone belongs to the person who paid several hundred dollars for it. That's this concept we have called a 'sale'.

Welcome to this world. You must be new here.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

apple fanboys are very funny, the try to find a product with comparable features and easy of use for the same price of a (iphone|imac|macbook|Me.com) is a known talking point, don't even try to answer that, for example a creative zen 8GB is priced at $114, the nano 8gb costs $199, then the nano have a very intuitive interface that is worth $85 or not have comparable characteristics.

Re:What is the big deal?

[sammyF70]

Creative Labs Zen Stone, comparable to the Shuffle (none of the jagged edges GP was complaining about), supports MP3 and no DRM, can be used as a USB stick, supports directories and sequential directory Fast-Forward (which the shuffle *can't*!), comes in different cool color and a very nice design, with approx. the same size as a Shuffle. Sound quality is subjective, but as far as I read, the Zen Stone sounds better than the Shuffle

First price tag found when googling "creative labs zen stone" : $34.99

Re:What is the big deal?

[jeremyp]

A non-replaceable battery is just a poor design choice for a phone. It makes it much less functional for a lot of people.

I dispute that. Your case is actually pretty rare. In fact I don't know anybody who carries around a spare battery for their mobile phone. Apple made a design choice. Presumably they weighed up the loss of a very small section of the market against benefits (to them) of a non replaceable battery. The fact that people seem to be buying these things as fast as they are made suggests Apple did not make a poor choice.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Graff]

A non-replaceable battery on your phone is a critical issue for those of us who use our cellphones frequently for business reasons. With my current phone, if I find myself on calls for four hours during during the day, and I'm worried about the battery running out of juice later in the afternoon, I can just slap in the spare, charged battery I lug around in my bag. I guess there are external chargers you can carry around and plug your iPhone into if you needed to, but then your phone rings and you're trying to do stuff with your cell plugged in to an external battery pack and whatnot.

While it would be nice to be able to quickly and easily replace the battery in an iPhone I understand why Apple didn't make it that way. It would have added significantly to the size, complexity, and cost of the iPhone.

However there are a lot of add-ons out there that provide you with more power for your iPhone if you need it. I've seen several solutions that you plug into the bottom slot of the iPhone which provide you with many more hours of run-time. They range from clunky, yet effective, battery packs which can take AA batteries to slim units that cradle your iPhone and just add a bit more thickness to it.

Yes, they cost extra past the initial cost of the iPhone but then again if you had to buy a second battery you would have had an additional cost anyways.

The real deal killer for me is ATT. Not with a gun to my head. I need my telephone to ring when somebody calls me, not go into voice mail.

I was very unsure about AT&T's service before I got the iPhone. I used to have Verizon and it was very reliable, and I know that AT&T is the re-branded Cingular which I've always heard problems about. Thankfully, I've found that AT&T's service is comperable to Verizon's. Apparently AT&T has built up Cingular's service quite a bit and really improved its reliability. I hardly ever get a dropped call or one that goes directly to voicemail, certainly no more so than I did with Verizon.

Re:What is the big deal?

[lupis42]

There's a gigantic spectrum of purchasing decisions between "Fully aware of the alternatives, and chose this device based on usability concerns" and "Slaves to Apple's marketing material" you know.

Calling people who buy the iPhone slaves to Apple's marketing material is a hyperbolistic attempt to make a point, which is that image and marketing are fundamental to what makes Apples sell at the premium that they charge. Most Apple purchasers, especially first time purchasers, haven't done any research, they just got frustrated by their previous device and they have this image of Apple as making stuff that's "easy and intuitive" and "just works". The degree to which that image is correct varies from person to person, but that doesn't actually matter that much anyway, because (thanks to the expectation bias) the expensive device will be perceived as being worth it. Whether there were other devices that would have been just as satisfying is not explored, because that would involve casting doubt on the previous purchasing decision. Apple know this, and they use it to their advantage as much as possible.

On the other hand, Apple got that image through product development and making design decisions as well as marketing. They spend a huge amount of money and effort getting their products to meet the standards they have for look, and feel, and reliability. Like their design decisions or not, they create products that many people want, and their thirty seconds of fiddling impression is generally very good. Some of that comes from them hiding limitations, but most of that is a consistent, clean UI and good functionality.

Anyway, upshot: most people who buy Apple stuff aren't making fully informed choices, aren't aware of the alternatives, and don't really care. They are being sold by Image. On the other hand, they get a product that most of them are happy with, and they are generally willing to recommend. Sometimes quite... vehemently. And how many of us really do the research, and consider all the alternatives with any other purchasing decisions?

Re:What is the big deal?

[nine-times]

The facts that aren't subjective are objective. Saying something "sucks by comparison" isn't objective, it's subjective.

Not sure where I said something "sucks in comparison". Skimming my post, I can't find it. I said Palm's browser "stinks", not in comparison, but just that it stinks. At least the last time I used the browser that comes with Palm devices, it couldn't render normal HTML the same as a desktop browser. You had to write a mobile version of your page, which almost no one does.

Without a doubt, every phone out there is locked down in some way or another. The iPhone is locked down in every single way imaginable, including where battery replacement is concerned. That's a huge deal.

Not if the things you want to do in the phone are still possible when it's "locked down in every single way imaginable". I mostly want to use the phone, browse the web, check my e-mail, and listen to music. A device which does those things painlessly is, IMO, better than a device which does more thing (most of which I don't really want to do) in a way that's painfully frustrating.

For god's sake there's nothing as simple (or as Apple-famous) as copy/cut and paste. Why did they leave it out? People want it. It's not there

I'm sure they'll put it in when they develop a method of executing it in the UI that's systematic and fits with the rest of the UI. That's just an issue of design philosophy-- Apple isn't denying you copy/paste because they're trying to cheat you. They just don't put in poorly-executed features that they'll have to re-implement later because it was rushed in the first place. They'd rather leave it out until it's ready. Anyway, I've been using the iPhone for over a year now, and though copy/paste would have been useful at times, it's never been a huge deal.

Everything is very controlled. The root story here is that someone screwed up and let something USEFUL out and they pulled it.

No, the root story here is that Apple has released, withdrawn, and re-released a piece of software which violates the AT&T contract. There's nothing really surprising there, let alone covert or nefarious. When they released the SDK, they said they would control distribution and not distribute programs which violate AT&T's rules.

Re:What is the big deal?

[stuboogie]

And everyone complains about Microsoft and their tactics.

All Apple and AT&T are doing is charging you a large fee for LEASING the iPhone hardware to use on the AT&T network for another large monthly fee.

Regardless of how you feel about the iPhone in relation to other phones, by having the hardware locked into one carrier, you are at their mercy. Sure, you can jailbreak it, but then you are using the iPhone in contradiction to the license agreement. But Apple's DRM doesn't interfere, does it? It just works! How Apple and AT&T want it to work. You don't like it? Tough. You have no LEGAL options other than not buying it in the first place. Like the sheep they are, most people don't care to sign their freedoms away for convenience. At least until a restriction that Apple or AT&T imposes restricts them personally. By then, they are locked into the two-year contract.

Yes, a sale has been made. Without the AT&T contract, however, you just have an over-priced iPod Touch. Of course, you can always hack it, but then it doesn't "just work" anymore. Real convenient.

Re:What is the big deal?

[erroneus]

Hi, my name is Daniel. Glad to meet ya. I carry a spare battery for any device I have that has batteries. Batteries not only run down, but they also fail. Being able to replace the battery is important in cases where usage of the device is necessary or critical. There are a lot of people who feel their phone is a critical need device. For those people, not having an instantly replaceable battery is unthinkable.

I wouldn't complain about an iTouch or other iPod not having a replaceable battery. They are rarely, if ever, mission-critical devices. But even in that case, it's inconvenient and the cost of replacement makes your iPod, your iTouch and even your iPhone a VERY expensive "disposable phone." Quite a few iPhones were suffering from a fatigued battery... wouldn't hold a charge too long. Then comes along iPhone 3G at half the price of their old phone. The choice between replacing the battery (which costs a lot of money and time) in the iPhone and buying a new iPhone 3G becomes obvious. Your old iPhone became a disposable phone and the iPhone 3G became its replacement. By the time the battery in the iPhone 3G becomes tired, will there be ANOTHER iPhone at half the 3G's price released? Creating another disposable iPhone?

Re:What is the big deal?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

You can't save a picture to your phone after you have received it in email.

Funny, when I get images in themail i just hold my finger on the image and.. IT PROMPTS FOR A SAVE.

Re:What is the big deal?

[ratboy666]

Apple products no jagged edges? What the fuck?

Ok, I understand, they are smooth 'n all -- oh, you mean there are no USABILITY issues. Gotchya. And... wrong.

Example: Someone (my wife) using Windows 98. Really. With universal usb storage driver. Buys her sister an ipod and a CD to rip (audio book). The ipod is the little one with no display, 1gb of memory, cheap. Really, its a destructo audio book player. Limited instructions, maybe she missed the part about "itunes" but I don't think it was in the instructions!

Anyway, the CD is ripped onto the computer, and the ipod is plugged in. It shows up as a mass storage device. She copies the rip to the device, and charges. However, the ipod won't stay on! She RETURNS the ipod to the store as defective. The service guy says "Um, you need this application called iTunes" - Of course it is not supplied with the ipod. Too cheap to put a mini-cd in the packaging!

iTunes doesn't work with Windows 98. XP, maybe (I don't know). Fortunately, GtkPod is available for Linux (which we also use).

Let's break it down -

The ipod needs custom software, YET responds as a USB mass storage device - this is good design?
Apple doesn't put a cheap CD into the box with the software - come on, that's just bad - now an internet connection is REQUIRED.
iTunes doesn't work with Windows 98. Ok, I'll grant you this.
The ipod doesn't stay turned on if there is no magic itunes stuff on it. It has a nifty color changing led and all, but that isn't used to display any sort of distinguishing error - you have to KNOW the magic to get it to go.

And you think Apple doesn't have jagged edges... I would imagine that iTunes probably comes with the Mac computer, so it is probably seamless 'n all. But the chutzpah! I should spend $600 so a $50 product works?

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

The real deal killer for me is ATT. [...] I need my telephone to ring when somebody calls me, not go into voice mail.

Sadly, I have found Verizon's service to be quite poor, and considerably more expensive.

As someone who uses a cell phone for critical business functions, all I can say is that I left Verizon due to poor service quality. You may hate AT&T, but in my experience it is a much higher quality service than Verizon. I left Verizon years ago, and am much happier with my service now.

Back in the analog days I did find Verizon to have better coverage compared to AT&T's TDMA service. But that was long ago, and those first and second generation networks have long been dismantled.

I need my telephone to ring when somebody calls me, not go into voice mail.

And of course, with all American providers, you can set up the call waiting, call forwarding, and ring-count-before-forwarding rules through both the handset and through the provider's web site. There are no differences between the wireless providers in this category.

Re:What is the big deal?

[jimicus]

When I finally gave them a try is when I realized that the Image I had of Apple was actually being espoused by people who hadn't used a Mac in years, if ever. I made the switch because I don't have to fight with the OS.

THANK YOU.

As a systems admin, I've been saying for years that a system you have to fight with in order to accomplish a given task is never the optimal solution. It's seldom a particularly good solution.

The only thing that surprises me is that this approach is so rare. So many people seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to have a system which offers features A, B, C and D but requires you to go the mental equivalent of 12 rounds with Tyson to achieve C and D.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Ed Avis]

You have no LEGAL options other than not buying it in the first place.

Where do you get this from? What legal opinion do you have that says that reprogramming your own phone is illegal?

Re:What is the big deal?

[steve_bryan]

Multitouch interface rather than just an augmented mouse is the big deal about recent developments at Apple. It is at the API level so the perception of it is only beginning to penetrate public consciousness. It will also require time to be better utilized by developers just like it took time for the window, icon, menu, pointing device interface to become ubiquitous. In that former case (wimp interface) and the current multitouch example Apple leads in deployment by years before Microsoft "innovates" the same thing eventually.

If you think multitouch on the iPhone is not unique then I don't think you're viewing the scene very clearly. (By the way that is part of why people indicate that they find it so cool).

Re:What is the big deal?

[CastrTroy]

The iPod supports MP3 too. You made it sound like it doesn't. Although the iPod does support DRM formats, it doesn't require that you use them. One advantage of the iPods supporting DRM is that you can rent movies from iTunes, and watch them on you iPod. But if you don't like that DRM, don't worry, you can play any non-DRM video you want on the Nano. One small disadvantage of the stone is that it doesn't come with a clip. Although you can buy a cover with a clip that costs under $5, it shows that they didn't really think the whole thing through when designing it, and came out with the clip after.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

But Apple products tend to have no jagged edges...

I guess you missed the story about the Macbook Air being sharp enough to cut bread and/or flesh...

Re:What is the big deal?

[EgoWumpus]

First of all, while I accept that you might carry around an extra battery for everything, not everyone does. It is, arguably, a vast waste of resources for most people. That you do it is purely anecdotal and thus not convincing evidence.

As you yourself state, though, the iPhone - any cell phone, really - is not a mission critical device. To think most of the market needs this 'feature' is ridiculous. I agree, it's a nice to have, but it's far from a poor design choice.

Thirdly, all cell phones - indeed, nearly everything - is disposable. No one is replacing their iPhone any faster than other people are replacing their cell phones. To put the sins of the whole market on the iPhone is silly.

Finally, they make rapid chargers for iPhones. You plug it in, it juices it up. Not great on the efficiency end of things, but solutions do exist - it just requires you to think beyond a narrow focus of 'replacing the battery'.

Re:What is the big deal?

[johanatan]

I completely agree with both of you too. I previously had a UT Starcom (or Audiovox in some places) PPC 6700 running Windows Mobile Smartphone Edition. It technically has all the same features as the iPhone (except for maybe line-item voicemail access), but they're so poorly designed that I rarely bothered to use them. Since getting the iPhone, I actually use the calendar for all of my appointments--a novel idea, I know. :-)

Re:What is the big deal?

[SethJohnson]

I bought my last phone in 2005. I spent $279 on it even with the discount Sprint offered for renewing my contract. It was the best digital camera phone they offered at the time.

As I explored features like text messaging, I realized Samsung had no idea what UI meant. To delete a message, you had to scroll down a list of options to the second page of options before 'delete' was available. They prioritized 'file' and 'reply' higher in the list than delete, which is what you'll want to do with more messages than any other option. Text messages were such an annoyance to deal with, I would tell people my phone doesn't support it and ask them not to send them to me.

It had a calendar and address book, but offered no connectivity with my computer. Completely standalone repository.

If I wanted to email the photos off the camera to someone, I had to upgrade my plan to include wireless internet, which was another $20 a month.

The point of all these criticisms is that I had already run through the gauntlet of buying a premium phone to find that its usability was horrible. As a consumer, I never considered dropping that kind of cash on a Nokia or other phone promising fancy features after my disappointment with that Samsung phone. When I checked out the iPhone at the Apple Store, I immediately recognized that they 'got' what was missing on my Samsung-- usability. I had no qualms switching carriers and buying the iPhone. The service plan ends up costing me what it would have with Sprint if I would have gotten the internet option. The phone cost me essentially the same as my 2005 phone did, and it works a million times better.

Seth

Re:What is the big deal?

[DrgnDancer]

One person does not make a statistic. The GP admits that Apple may have alienated a small segment of the population when they made their design choice. You're in that segment. It's OK though because everyone does not need to have an iPhone. I personaly traveled for years on business and expect to do so again. I have many friends that do as well. Not "ohh, I go to a conference occasionally", "I drive from place to place repairing HPC computers, and am rarely home except at night (if I'm lucky)" kind of travel. Neither I, nor any of those people carried spare batteries. The only time I ever had a major phone issue while traveling was when the phone itself took a crap on me. On the rare occasion that my phone ran close to out of juice I either plugged it in, or put it on the car charger. I did usually have those with me.

Everybody complain about Apple "fan-bois", but most of us that post in defense of our choice to purchase apple aren't denying that the system has problems, we're just reacting to being essentially called morons. Why do so many people seem to equate "I don't personally like/want that gadget" with "People that do like/want that gadget are mouth breathing morons who must be corrected and convinced that my personal needs or feelings are valid across every single experience on Earth." You don't like an iPhones? Don't get one. I like mine, and I don't think it makes me an idiot. It does what I want, when I want, and I haven't regretted replacing my Treo once.

Re:What is the big deal?

[sammyF70]

I was talking about the Shuffle, so the video aspect is not an issue.

The lack of clip isn't exactly a problem : the Stone, like the Shuffle, is extremely small, and virtually unbreakable unless you directly step on it. The best way to carry it is in any pocket, if you don't mind people not knowing what your mp3 player looks like.

If I have the option between a belt-clip or more functions, no worries about iTune not running on my OS of choice and the additional ability to be used as a USB stick for a price that's a fifth cheaper, I guess I'll pass on the belt clip . Your mileage might vary of course

Re:What is the big deal?

[KermodeBear]

I have a Creative Labs Zen V Plus. I bought this after doing some research about what mp3 players were available at the time. I wanted something that:

* Had 4GB or more storage, flash-based.
* Had a decent battery life (8-10 hours).
* Played MP3s; not concerned with other formats (though OggVorbis would be nice)

I ended up debating between a similar iPod product (can't remember the specific one) and the Zen V. I ended up choosing the Zen V Plus because:

1. $30 cheaper.
2. FM Radio (rarely used, but it is there)
3. Voice recording capability

The iPod did look nicer, and I'm sure that it might be a bit easier to use - but the Zen V Plus is pretty easy to use, too. So far I have owned it for about six months. My only complaint is that the screen has a lot of scratches on it now (I am rather rough with it, to be honest), and the screen can be difficult to read in sunlight - but an iPod would be the same.

Overall, I think it is a better value; I spent $99 instead of $129 for a system that is capable of doing more, just with a different interface and a different shell.

A website that was very helpful to me is Anything But iPod, which reviews non-iPod players. If you're in the market for an mp3 player, might want to stop there and take a look around before you make a purchase.

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

So Samsung make a crappy phone. The whole point of my post was that "X phone is crap" does not imply "Iphone is better than all other phones". Actually this seems to be a common theme with Apple - practically all Mac advocacy is not about what's good about the Mac, but what's bad about Windows. But this argument is even more tenuous with phones, where the number of products on the market is far greater than the number of desktop computer platforms.

For example, on my phone (a standard several-year-old phone), Delete is the first option available. I can send photos at a click of a button (via MMS or email, btw - I'm not restricted). There's nothing special about my phone - it only cost £80 a few years ago, and that was full price on Pay As You Go, no discount. I don't see millions of articles on Slashdot or the media about it. It just works. If the Iphone can only be made to look good in comparison to the worst phones on the market - well, that says it all.

If I wanted to email the photos off the camera to someone, I had to upgrade my plan to include wireless internet, which was another $20 a month.

That's a network issue, not a phone issue. Even bog standard phones come with Internet access as standard now. In fact, they did in 2005 - that must have been a really poor phone/network you were unlucky to pick.

Re:What is the big deal?

[WNight]

I dunno. Buying unwanted games on my phone is pretty easy. It comes with a crappy pool game and some bad tetris clone that would have been embarrassing on my Apple 2 - both thoroughly crippled demo versions. They make it pretty easy to buy the full versions, almost easier than launching the demos. Like with Apple these apps will also stop working when I change phones (if not sooner).

What's with the HORRIBLE shareware games being recycled as state-of-the-art phone games? Are the people who buy this stuff blind, or is it all sold via accidental purchases?

Now, if the iPhone makes it easier to buy an app I might want... And if Apple wouldn't just discontinue that app whenever they wanted...

Re:What is the big deal?

[DMUTPeregrine]

No, he meant jagged edges. There are plenty of MP3 players out there without curved edges, or with hard buttons. Clicking a sharp-edged button eventually hurts your fingers. The Ipod/Iphone don't have that problem.

Re:What is the big deal?

[justin12345]

I don't know if the battery is really an issue for the iPhone. I've been using cell phones and smart phones since 1996 and I've never had a phone that outlasted its battery. I'm more worried about the screen going on the iphone (I've killed 4 phones and its always the screen), and the iPhone has a big vulnerable screen.

I'll did get an iPhone 3G, and honestly I have to say I'm pretty impressed with it. I don't think dismissing a great user interface and pleasing design as just "bling-bling" is fair. I agree with you that in many ways the iPhone is inferior to other smart phones, but many smart phones fall well short of the iPhone in other ways.

Re:What is the big deal?

[gruntled]

"As you yourself state, though, the iPhone - any cell phone, really - is not a mission critical device."

Actually, what he said was that an iPod is not a critical device for him, but his cell phone is. Same for me.

Re:What is the big deal?

[justin12345]

"Yes, a sale has been made. Without the AT&T contract, however, you just have an over-priced iPod Touch."

The iPod Touch is actually $100 more expensive then the iPhone.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a toolbag with the aesthetic sensibility of a donkey. I can't believe you're modded insightful. Nonetheless, I'm sure if you take a look around your house, you will find something that you own with no quantifiable utility. Anyway, I think you should just accept that you "don't get it" seeing as how Apple is selling the shit out of their iPhones. At the end of the day, this is all they really care about.

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

I don't know why I got modded insightful, but it probably helps when you can make an argument without resorting to ad hominems...

I own plenty of things with utility, but I can explain why they are useful. Yes, I also have things that have no quantifiable utility, such as random scraps of paper or the rubbish that I haven't thrown out yet ... not sure why you want to compare the Iphone to these!

I would hope that Apple are selling the shit with the vast amounts of media coverage and hype they get - but nonetheless, their sales are dwarfed by those of other phone companies. I get why a phone company can sell phones. What I don't get is why the Iphone is treated like the holy grail of phones, above and beyond every other phone in existence.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an iPhone, and I actually develop competing software. hence posting anon.

You are mostly right. feature for feature the iPhone does suck.
- can't replace battery
- can't use as net access for laptop
- no auto-focus in only 2mp camera (which also just generally sucks in low light)

However it is about how people feel as you said. Its not just because its Apple, or animated. But because its actually a feature phone (read simple), where the markup is for smartphone hardware (touch screen, wifi). If you want a phone to make calls, send text, and occasionally surf the web, it does all that, and it does that in ways that make more sense than many smartphones. If you want a tangible demonstration of the difference, you have to put a smart phone and a non-smart phone in the hands of a tech-novice and ask them to do a few standard tasks (e.g. find a website, send a message). Note, you can't hand them a manual, or explain anything to them. Then ask yourself as an expert, "What am I willing to pay not to put up with that crap". But I notice a lot of experts are quite happy to put up with a poorer UI that makes them exercise their brains a bit. To those people, the iPhone isn't for you. But I also know someone who got given a current (e.g. this years) smart phone, and preferred their non-color phone from five years ago, simply because of the UI stupidities that didn't need to be there in the smart-phone.

Re:What is the big deal?

[dafing]

assuming you are a man with a wife, how do you judge women? I would think its much the same as an OS, its about finding the one thats right for you. I dont think there would be many people who couldnt love the iPhone os, but theres plenty who wouldnt like the Blackberry OS (like me). But then again, I can live with not being able to swap the battery out and they cant.

Some of the most "beautiful" women in the world have obvious flaws like a "beauty spot" etc. Its all debatable

Re:What is the big deal?

[jeremyp]

Hi, my name is Daniel. Glad to meet ya. I carry a spare battery for any device I have that has batteries. Batteries not only run down, but they also fail. Being able to replace the battery is important in cases where usage of the device is necessary or critical. There are a lot of people who feel their phone is a critical need device. For those people, not having an instantly replaceable battery is unthinkable.

You failed to understand my point. While there are people for whom the mobile phone is critical, they are a very small percentage of the population. For those people, the iPhone is the wrong choice. For everybody else... well I think it's the wrong choice too, but sales suggest plenty of people disagree with me.

They are rarely, if ever, mission-critical devices.

Mobile phones are rarely mission critical. Not long ago I dropped mine into a toilet bowl and had to do without it until the phone company delivered a new one the next day. Surprisingly, my company failed to collapse in the mean time. By the way, a spare battery would have been completely useless and in my whole 12 years of owning a mobile phone, I've dropped more of them in toilets (i.e. one) than I've had battery failures.

Then comes along iPhone 3G at half the price of their old phone. The choice between replacing the battery (which costs a lot of money and time) in the iPhone and buying a new iPhone 3G becomes obvious. Your old iPhone became a disposable phone and the iPhone 3G became its replacement. By the time the battery in the iPhone 3G becomes tired, will there be ANOTHER iPhone at half the 3G's price released? Creating another disposable iPhone?

Maybe it's different in the States, but in the UK, the mobile phone market works exactly as if the phone is a disposable device. I'm actually surprised that the iPhone gained any traction here at all because people expect to be given a phone with their contract and expect to be offered a new one when their contract is about to expire. Nobody here keeps a phone long enough for the battery to die.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in the mood to create an account but wanted to get in on this..

I've had two Treos. My first and last smart phone to date.It had a lot of positive features and a ton of negatives. The internet was not worth using. Very slow. Not once did it ever properly sync. It was great for texting, emailing and the battery was replaceable.

Palm OS was my friend and my enemy.

I've tried to find replacements. HTC seemed to have me when they put out what became the Tilt on AT&T. Guess what? They never fixed the video driver. My friend is completely unable to use the hardware in her phone and has had continuous issues with it.

I don't trust many companies.

Apple I may not like sometimes, but I trust them to fix what problems arise and not overtly lie about their products.

The battery problem with the iphone could be an issue, but I keep my phones charging in my car during classes and for 50 bucks I can have that kensington 3 hour battery boost if that runs out.

It's not a deal breaker for me.

A lack of flash support is more bothersome, but they will likely fix that and make the GPS turn by turn in the next update.

Incidentally, I sometimes had to go tap crazy on my Treo. I've never seen someone hammering away at an iphone trying to get a response.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

So the iPod has rough edges because it doesn't work with a ten-year-old OS? And not just any ten-year-old OS, but one that anyone could easily see is not supported, if they had read the system requirements on the box? Sorry to break it to you, but the iPod doesn't have a parallel port or floppy drive, either.

Re:What is the big deal?

[smellotron]

It's hard to measure 'ease of use'.

Not really, you just have to be very specific.

...a button that accidentally pauses the music if you have the player in your pocket... a stupid menu that takes 4 clicks to play music, but 2 to change contrast...

Exactly. Let me rephrase that into a few measurable guidelines:

• calculate the number/cost of actions required per interaction. Given a predicted or measured set of interaction probabilities, minimize the expected cost per interaction.
• identify "drop-dead" interactions and make them impossible to execute accidentally (put a cover on kill switches, require extended button presses for power-down, replace hard pause by a fade-out that is canceled by unpressing the button, ...)

There's a large base of experience to follow when creating user interfaces; I believe the entire field of Industrial Design is based around this. Problem is, electronics devices and software offer such unlimited possibilities that most people simply can't handle the choices effectively, or aren't aware of the prevailing experience.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally speaking, I agree with you: investigating which UI is most efficient *is* possible, and it should be done, especially when people are claiming it as a prominent feature.

But you misunderstand badly what "quantitative" means. There must be numbers.

There are some quantitative methods for measuring usability do exist (they go along the lines of Fitz's Law, evaluations of how fast users perform certain tasks), but it's easy to get myopic about these.

A good example is your reference to the placement of the menu (whether at the top of the window, or at the top of the screen). Despite the fact that experienced users can click a menu at the top of the screen more quickly, it may be a mistake to position it there, as it can be less intuitive for new users. There can't be much argument about that: having elements of a program unified on the screen is more natural. On top of that, it's conceivable that hotkeys will diminish the Fitz's Law advantage, so the speed advantage is even smaller than it may initially appear.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I *always* buy a spare battery for my phone. Not everyone is a dilettante. I won't consider a MacBook Airhead because of the battery and the damn lack of ports. I just saw a sony, smaller, lighter, very pretty, *has* an optical drive, *has* more than 1 USB port, *has* firewire, *has* gig ethernet. And the new card slot. And an SD card slot. And highspeed wireless (3G) built in. No need to tether! Oh, and a replacable battery, huh, what a clever idea.

Re:What is the big deal?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

we'll do more than not use it, we will continue to point out how such a retarded policy is wrong, and that's it's costing apple customers.

Feel free to call their policy retarded. But costing them customers? Have you seen the sale figures of the iPhone?

Re:What is the big deal?

[NuclearDog]

"Leaving aside a few basic functionality that even cheap phones have such as copy/paste, Java, MMS, video recording..."

Cheap phones? Copy and paste? Java? MMS? Video recording? Sure. The cheap phones have all those features. And they're so poorly implemented as to be damn-near unusable.

I have a Motorola Krzr. When I bought it, it was mid-high end. It's now nearly a year old.

The "Copy/Paste" consists of an inconsistently implemented set of menu options with very little flexibility and no implementation where it counts (I can't copy something from a text message, for example.) It's instead available for more useless situations like copying my phone's ESN or OS Version.

The phone, despite having 32MB built-in storage, refuses to store more than ~120 text messages total. Which wouldn't be _that_ big of a deal if the "Auto-Cleanup" setting actually worked. Instead, it just fills up and up until I either manually clear it or it gets full and just starts dropping text messages. With my 32MB of storage I can only have 5 alarms set. With my 32MB of storage I can only record about 2 minutes of voice notes.

I can't set things in my calendar to repeat bi-weekly. Most of the menus in the phone that provide a list of preset options and a custom option (including the "Event Duration" selection of the calendar) provide a list of damn-near useless preset options. The phone provides no way to take any sort of textual notes.

Of course, why would I want to? Motorola's "iTap" is about the most fucking retarded piece of bullshit I've ever used. "Jarmo" comes before "Jason". Typing "me." will result in "ne1" (Thanks, I'm not an illiterate fuck, I like to use real words. You don't really provide me an easy option for that case.) Typing "Mandie", punctuation, "s" will result in "Mandie.s". There's a ton of other examples, but they're not needed. Simply put, the phone actually pretty effectively manages to always choose the WORST option. That is, in any given situation, it will very accurately choose the letter least likely to complete a real word. This is in contrast to my ancient as shit Nokia phone. The T9 on there was a lot more intelligent.

It provides little flexibility in setting up ring profiles. It provides a built-in (shitty) MP3 player while having no sort of standard audio output jack. It will not play any music through bluetooth headphones. The phone itself is a flip phone, but with outside buttons which continue to have functions while the phone is closed, resulting in my battery being drained as the phone sits in camera mode for an hour in my pocket. The Java support on it is slower than you'd ever believe and the text input and menus used for Java applications are completely dissimilar from the rest of the phone, just to further complicate things.

When I close it, the screen pushes on the keypad so every time I open it I can read my keypad's imprint off of my screen.

This phone is an unintuitive, poorly designed piece of garbage.

So, at this point, you're probably wondering what my point is and how this all relates to whether the iPhone is good or bad.

Simple. Most phones already on the market are utter garbage. Sure, the iPhone probably has its problems. Sure, it's not perfect in every single way, and sure, I've never used an iPhone and I'm talking out of my ass. I do know, though, if Apple put as much effort into the design and user interaction with the iPhone as they did with the iPod, it's gonna be miles and miles ahead of its competitors.

And yeah, being able to brag about your shiny new iPhone is pretty cool too.

ND

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

Sure - I mean that there should be objective ways, even if it isn't quantifiable. The OP I replied to suggested that because it couldn't be measured with numbers, it was intrinsically some subjective thing that couldn't be discussed, and so saying "It just is better because it is" is sufficient.

I agree there are cases where it may be a matter of opinion which UI is better, but we should still be able to discuss how each product works, and what the advantages of each method are, rather than just saying "X product has a better UI because it does" "No, Y product has a better UI because it just works". That's a good point about Fitz's Law, and would be a reasonable counter argument when discussing menuing systems of different OSs.

Re:What is the big deal?

[mdwh2]

I refer you to this post - your argument boils down to "My cheap phone was crap, so the Iphone is the best".

The point you are missing is that, even if all the cheap phones have these flaws (I have no problem with copy and paste, Java, MMS, Video recording, btw), there are other expensive phones on the market. Which have these features, and don't have the flaws that the cheap phones have. I'm not saying they're perfect, I'm not saying the Iphone doesn't necessarily do some things better. I'm just not sure why the Iphone is treated as the holy grail of phones to be viewed above and beyond every other phone on the market. It isn't. It's just yet another phone in the higher end of the market. If the best you can come up with in its favour is that it does well against cheap phones - well, that says it all.

I don't think one is in a position to criticise the implementation of copy/paste when the Iphone does not do that at all. Whether it's easy to use or not, a phone that has it is immensely easier to use than one that doesn't allow me to do this. It's not even something I would call a "feature" - it's a basic requirement, and not having it is a bug, just the same as if it didn't have a delete key (the Iphone does allow you to delete, right? I have to ask, given what else it lacks). My Motorola phone can copy from text messages - if yours can't, I'd say it's just as poor as the Iphone.

Your criticism of Itap is specific to Itap - as you say, T9 works fine, and there are loads of phones that do that. No argument for the Iphone here.

I can play mp3s through a standard audio output jack. As for the camera buttons on the outside, you might like to investigate the "Phone lock" feature (and before you say it's a pain to lock it, you have to lock non-flip-phones anyway; plus at least you don't risk dialing 999/911 accidently, which even locking won't prevent).

And the Java is fast enough to be useable for me - again, you can't make a criticism of this when the Iphone doesn't even have it.

Sure, it's not perfect in every single way, and sure, I've never used an iPhone and I'm talking out of my ass. I do know, though, if Apple put as much effort into the design and user interaction with the iPhone as they did with the iPod, it's gonna be miles and miles ahead of its competitors.

Ah, so now we see it, you haven't even used one. This was the point of my post - you're comparing based on brand, not based on product. By this logic, Microsoft's Zune should have been a market leader, based on the success of Windows. And the Ipod should have been a niche product used only by a few, based on the minimal success of Macs.

Re:What is the big deal?

[CastrTroy]

I compared the same one with my iPod Nano. I picked the iPod because it had 24 hours batter life (2 times as much), and also because it can play compressed video. The Zen V Plus does video, but only uncompressed AVI, which is a big problem when you only have 4 GB of space. Doing more is subjective. The iPod doesn't do radio, but I can fit a DVD worth of video in 250MB and it doesn't look bad because the of the lower resolution screen, and the MPEG4 video encoding support. So, I can bring a couple movies, or catch up on a bunch of TV shows while I ride the bus. To me, that's more important than FM radio. My iPod screen doesn't have any scratches, and that's after about 9 months in use. Not sure if that's because I'm more careful than you, or because they use better materials. As a reference point, the shiny metal back on my iPod is quite scuffed up, to the point where the ingraving isn't quite as readable as I would like it. But that's probably because I always leave it shiny (or not so shiny anymore) side down, rather than with screen on the table. So here's a sum up of why I think my iPod is better than the Creative V Plus, and was the right choice for me.

1. Only $40 more than the Zen. (at the time I bought it, Zen seems to have lower their price a bit now)
2. Played MPEG4 Compressed video,
3. Bigger screen (2 inch vs. 1.5 inch)
4. 24 hours of battery life with music, 5 with straight video. (not just claimed by apple, this is what I actually get)
5. I don't completely hate iTunes.

The last one is a big point. I had a Sony Net MD player before that. I wasn't getting suckered into another thing like SonicStage ever again. I had a shuffle, knew what iTunes was, and knew that I could tolerate it. iTunes could be better, but it's defintely not the worst thing out there, and something that I don't have problems with very often. I didn't have a chance to try out the software that came with the Zen, and from reading the website, I wasn't exactly sure if I could just forgo their entire software package, or if it would be required to use their software to transfer music and play lists to the Zen.

Re:What is the big deal?

[jacquesm]

only on /. would someone compare a gadget with women ;)

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder where you get 'your case is actually pretty rare' from. I use a mobile phone for business use and am in a similar situation to the guy you replied to. Me, I'm utterly paranoid about having spares for everything. This is because I don't want to get stuck in some dire part of the world without the ability to get online, do some work and possibly call a taxi now and then. When I get back to the UK after a week away, I want to be able to get the last twenty miles from the local train station to my house. So I carry a spare, charged battery, for exactly the same reason as I carry a photocopy of my passport and insurance details and some backup cash hidden somewhere or other.

There are many products on the market that support this case in one way or another (ie. multi-battery chargers, replacement batteries, etc - especially for smartphones), suggesting that whoever did that market research sees it as a valid market segment, and that there's some profit to be made in it. You may well be right that it is not a large market segment compared to the number of people with less need for mobile connectivity, but it would be interesting to back that assertion up with some actual data. As you say, your mobile phone is not mission critical for you; about twice a month, mine is a pretty vital part of my travel plans. I can't even use a car charger, as a car is not part of my lifestyle.

Anecdote swapping is fun :-P

You're right that Apple did not make a poor choice. They found a market and designed a product, which to be fair to others in this thread has turned out to be inappropriate for many users -- how many, you don't know, and neither does anyone else in this thread. Personally, I just dislike devices that are not designed for easy end-user maintenance on the principle that we as a culture are too ready to see devices that are 18 months old as disposable and obsolete. I don't see it as very responsible of Apple, even though they will kindly repair for a fee.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hint 1: what is the percentage of the mobile phone users which use their phones longer than their batteries live?

Is that like the old joke:

"How many people are buried in that cemetery?"

"All of them."

Re:What is the big deal?

[Mike610544]

So what makes Apple better or different? It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?

I'm not one of those Apple zealots, I personally prefer Linux for work and XP for home, but I bought my mom a MacBook a couple of years ago and have received 0 (zero) tech support calls since (down from 1 or 2 a month with the Windows machine she had.) On that same mom-friendly laptop, I was able to write a python script in emacs and run it from a real shell. I think that's a pretty good level of quality/flexibility out of the box.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Mike610544]

Macs usually do come at a ~10% premium.

Let's say I want a basic laptop.

The Dell is $599, the Mac is $1099.

All arguments about quality aside, for what the average consumer's looking for Macs are still a lot more expensive.

Re:What is the big deal?

[crmarvin42]

Apple doesn't compete in the bargain basement, already obsolete hardware market. Dell does. The base mac is equivalent, hardware wise (size, processor, HD, etc), to the mid range Dell laptop. So compare prices where they are relevant, not cheapest model to cheapest model.

Re:What is the big deal?

[Scudsucker]

supports MP3 and no DRM

So put non-DRM files on your iPod.

can be used as a USB stick

That was a nice feature of the original Shuffle, wish they'd kept it.

supports directories

Dragging files over manually is a pain in the ass and a waste of time. If you've got enough music to use a gigabyte mp3 player, you're going to want some library management software unless you're a fan of tedium.

sequential directory Fast-Forward (which the shuffle *can't*!)

So use playlists.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

They are trying to prove that there is no free lunch. Most 3G laptop plans cost $60 at least for reasonable data usage -- how can you expect to get it for free ?

AC.

Re:Anonymous Coward

[phoomp]

Apparently, the are many 3G providers outside the US which have no problems with tethering your laptop to your phone. This is what people have a problem with: a few backward providers dictating how the rest of the world can use *their* iPhones.

Re:Anonymous Coward

[residieu]

It's not for free. You're paying for 3G service when you pay your iPhone bill.

Hmm...

[Ant P.]

Maybe people realised a $10 _phone_ can provide the same functionality.

It reappeared last night!

[ClaraBow]

I downloaded it and it works great! I checked this morning and it is gone again. I'm only going to use it to for light browsing when Wifi isn't available. I think a lot of iphone users use Wifi quite frequently, I know I do, so having the ability to tether makes the data plan worth the money. I suspect the 30 dollar data plan is underused my many, so this app shouldn't put too much stress on ATT's network.

What about outside the USA?

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

I know tethering is against the AT&T rules and regulations... but why was it pulled for all non-usa iphones? We don't have the same agreements with our carriers outside the USA, and yet ... we suffer because AT&T can't stop complaining...

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thinking is...

The U.S. is the only country that matters.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[electrosoccertux]

I don't get it.
Buy $600 phone.
Pay $60-90/month to use it.
And you can't tether.

That's what I'd be the most interested in anyways. WOW on the go would be fun.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[stevel]

Tethering is not against AT&T rules in general. Tethering is supported on AT&T if you have a plan that allows it. In the past, all data plans allowed tethering, and that's the kind I have. Nowadays their data plans for PDA phones come in two levels, with and without tethering. The difference does not seem to be strictly enforced from what I have heard, but if you are caught tethering on a no-tether plan you may be subject to big extra charges.

I do not have an iPhone, and lack of tethering support is one of many reasons why. I occasionally tether with my Treo 750 and it works well.

Whatever the issue is with tethering on the iPhone, it would seem to be Apple and not AT&T. Many AT&T phones support tethering, but not the iPhone.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[iocat]

Tethering is absolutely not against AT&T regulations. I was able to pay I think... $9.95 a month to add tethering to my data plan for my 3G Cingular Windows Mobile 8525 (aka the Tilt). ATT is all about tethering. Not sure why they hate it on the iPhone.

But... I do know that it totally sucked in terms of speed and battery life. If they are banning tethering on the iPhone, I suspect it's battery-life related, since the battery life seems to be the 800lb gorrila in the room with that phone. [smugly pats BlackBerry Curve]

Re:What about outside the USA?

[guice]

Because I think tethering on an iPhone is more of an open box than other phones. I don't know how other phones work, but I can't see how you would limit tethering on an iPhone with or without a tethering plan. It seems to be the iPhone tethering is very much an all or none. Especially since the iPhone, unlike other phones, is a pure software driven phone.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[anexkahn]

I don't see what the problem is...they sell tethering for my blackberry. What is the difference between tethering it and tethering the iPhone? They must still be figuring out how to make more money off of it.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Nazlfrag]

What, you're not suggesting that Americans are bad at geography?

Re:What about outside the USA?

[stevel]

There's nothing that special about the iPhone - all phones are "software driven". With other tethering-capable phones, tethering is done by either Bluetooth (with a standard "Personal Area Network" profile), or by a USB connection (requires software on the tethered computer). On my WM6 Treo 750, I just start the AT&T-provided "Internet Sharing" application and tap "Connect" - done.

I think that many who gush about the iPhone and think it is unique have never used a smartphone before, of which there are many excellent examples on the market. What is unique about the iPhone is the way Apple decides what you are allowed to use it for.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[JohnnyGTO]

This is why AT&T offers a better phone, the Tilt, that allows tethering.
I will now run away and hide.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[blincoln]

What is unique about the iPhone is the way Apple decides what you are allowed to use it for.

It's also unique from other smartphones in that it has an interface that isn't a complete pile of crap. Windows Mobile and the BlackBerry OS are uniformly terrible in their UI design.

The iPhone is the first handheld computer I've seen with a UI that is effective, intuitive, and responsive. Everything just works the way I expect it to. And I say that as someone who doesn't own a Mac and probably never will because I have serious complaints about the OS X UI.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[lupis42]

And the phone also has the most amazing of modern input devices, buttons! Now with amazing new tactile feedback, so that you can almost touch type.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[mrchaotica]

Geography lesson for Americans.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Darkness404]

No, buy a $600 phone, jailbreak it, unlock it, and use whatever app you feel like it.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[zten]

Now it costs $30 to add tethering to a 3G plan.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[HeronBlademaster]

If it's against AT&T rules and regulations, why does my Sony Ericsson W580i do it out of the box over bluetooth, as an advertised feature?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "tethering" means, but if I understand correctly it means using the phone as a relay for an internet connection, using the phone's data service, right?

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Translation: "I've never used an iPhone in my life, but that's not going to stop me from telling you all about how lame it is."

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, that Tilt is great...how's that graphics card working out for you?

That phone is a wonderful example of the phone manufacturers selling to the phone companies instead of end users. No responsibility for software/driver updates--a device more than a platform... why would the phone companies update the devices when you could simply by a newer crippled device.

And, the fact that you can tether a Tilt (and a few other devices) and not the iPhone on the same network illustrates the stupidity of that limitation to consumers.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[iocat]

I disagree -- while I found the UI for Windows Mobile to be unusable inconsistant (for instance, you tap one place to dismiss an alert or VM message... but a text message cannot be dismissed the same way. Tapping in the same place for a SMS automatically replies) as a phone (it was very nice as a PDA), I find the BlackBerry to be incredible consistant and intuitive.

There are basically three buttons: YES, MENU, and BACK. It's much more modal than a touch-screen enabled device, but also much more usable for the simple tasks of phone, email, contacts, and scheduling. The whole device is very email orientated, and if that's what you do a lot of (and it is what I do), it's simply the best device on the market. The browser capabilities are roughly in line with IE for mobile, and the Google Maps application is a joy to use. Battery life is near infinite, even with a lot of constant email checking. There are also numerous shortcuts for power-users.

In comparison with the iPhone (I've used both), the iPhone is a lot slicker and has better font handling -- assuming you like your fonts smoothed. It's much better for showing pictures and video, and with GPS, the google maps function might actualy be more useful now. The iPhone has a better browser. But, battery life is far, far worse, and if you actually use your smartphone for work, that needs to be a real consideration. The soft keyboard, while "you can get used to it," and have it be "not too bad," is objectively inferior to a real keyboard for the portion of the population that has thumbs (eg most of humanity).

Bottom line, the iPhone is slicker and prettier, but the UI of the Blackberry enables users -- especially business users -- to do just as much, usually much faster, and for much longer, than the iPhone.

(And just for the record, I'm typing this on a MacBook -- I'm not a hater, the phone just isn't that great for me.)

Re:What about outside the USA?

[popo]

"What is unique about the iPhone is the way Apple decides what you are allowed to use it for."

Well... if only that were just an Apple phenomenon. I have a Nokia N61 -- which has fantastic VOIP and WiFi capabilities. But don't look for it in the USA, because it was released here as the N61i and it was crippled to make the phone co's happy.

There are 1000's of examples like this...

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I plug my iPhone into my laptop when I tether. It charges via USB. Battery life is not an issue.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[notdotcom.com]

I do not have an iPhone, and lack of tethering support is one of many reasons why.

Same here. Lack of tethering on the 3g network was iPhone's fatal flaw for me. If it was permitted, I would have one right now. Instead I'm waiting out some android phones to see how they stack up.

Tethering with EVDO (non rev-a) on my Blackberry usually gives me almost a Mb/sec up and down. That's fine for sending a few emails or even browing the web if I get stuck somewhere. The bonus is the full keyboard and decent sized screen on my laptop, not to mention any data that I have saved on said laptop for work, etc.

There are some problems, with number 1 being that blackberry software ONLY runs on windows, but that's also what my company laptop runs, so no big complaint there.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Solandri]

Tethering is not against AT&T rules in general. Tethering is supported on AT&T if you have a plan that allows it. In the past, all data plans allowed tethering, and that's the kind I have. Nowadays their data plans for PDA phones come in two levels, with and without tethering. The difference does not seem to be strictly enforced from what I have heard, but if you are caught tethering on a no-tether plan you may be subject to big extra charges.

I've always wondered why the phone companies try to make this distinction. Their network doesn't care if I'm browsing the Internet using my phone or my laptop connected via my phone. The only thing their network cares about is the amount of bandwidth I use. So just let everyone tether to their heart's content, and distinguish between the different tiers of data plans by amount of bandwidth they let you use. e.g. a 10 GB/month plan, a 50 GB/mo plan, and a 200 GB/mo plan. Then make a simple app/site which lets you see how much bandwidth you've consumed so far this month.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[maestroX]

The thinking is... The U.S. is the only country that matters.

Think different.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Yvan256]

And why would you think it's a good thing if a UI is so complicated that a child can't use it?

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Minstrel Boy]

Battery life can't be the issue, since the iPhone *also* doesn't support Bluetooth data transfer. Since you have to plug the damn thing into a USB port anyway, it's charging continually.

KeS

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to visit all of those places, but I couldn't get a ticket on the Orient Express.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[the_wesman]

well, duh!

Re:What about outside the USA?

[ceoyoyo]

But then you couldn't call your data plan unlimited, could you? And you can't very well offer "unlimited" data if someone is actually going to take you up on that. Why, they might run something other than a tiny little web browser and e-mail program!

Re:What about outside the USA?

[ceoyoyo]

If you're tethering and worried about the battery just plug your iPhone into your computer.

I suspect that the real reason is that Apple bullied AT&T into providing an unlimited data plan for the iPhone and AT&T is terrified that someone's going to run bittorrent on it. From a perusal of their web page, the tethering option knocks you from unlimited data to 5GB /month.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[mosb1000]

Is the iPhone's battery life really that bad? My brother has a 3G iPhone and he surfs the net on it quite a lot, but he doesn't run out of battery on it as long as he charges it up every night.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

just a fyi, the Unlimited Data plan at AT&T has an unspoken, soft limit of 5GB. Unless they've changed it...

If you pass this, they'll sometimes send you a letter offering to let you out of your data package, implying in the letter that if you don't accept, they'll can it for you.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[gnasher719]

I've always wondered why the phone companies try to make this distinction. Their network doesn't care if I'm browsing the Internet using my phone or my laptop connected via my phone. The only thing their network cares about is the amount of bandwidth I use. So just let everyone tether to their heart's content, and distinguish between the different tiers of data plans by amount of bandwidth they let you use. e.g. a 10 GB/month plan, a 50 GB/mo plan, and a 200 GB/mo plan. Then make a simple app/site which lets you see how much bandwidth you've consumed so far this month.

I think you don't have quite the right impression about the cost of providing internet access through a phone. I can actually get 3 GB/month data for £20 in the UK; that is considered a high amount of bandwidth and I can't easily get a higher rate. So I would assume that the actual cost to the ISP is at least £4 per GB, leaving room to make some profit. That would mean 10 GB/month would cost £40, 50 GB/month would cost £200, and 200 GB/month would cost £800.

Internet access through the mobile phone network is just considerably more expensive than internet access through DSL.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[PitaBred]

I run Linux on my work laptop, and it tethers fine via bluetooth to my Blackberry 8800, and via USB with the barry suite of tools. I can even back it up and restore all the databases and such. It's not Windows-only if you don't mind working at it a bit ;)

Re:What about outside the USA?

[fredmosby]

I turn the 3G off if I'm going to use the phone for a long time without charging it. I think the main reason the iPhone has battery problems is because people use the web on it more than people do on other phones.

For instance I couldn't even read the slashdot main page on a windows mobile pone, but on the iPhone I am constantly checking slashdot including reading the articles and comments.

In the example above he probably gets good battery life because he only uses if for email. If I only use the email on my iPhone battery life isn't a problem.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[cayenne8]

"he doesn't run out of battery on it as long as he charges it up every night."

Hmm...just struck me as a strange statement. Doesn't everyone put their phone on the charger overnight? It just seemed the common thing for me to do (not an iPhone owner)...I figured everyone charged or 'topped off' their phone nightly.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[jcrousedotcom]

On the Sprint Treo - WM version is automatically able to just do it as a DUN connection. The Palm version (my version) does require purchase of a Palm app to make it happen. Either way - Bluetooth or USB is as simple as setting up a DUN connection on Windows (presumable on Linux as well, just never tried it). It's reasonably fast as well. I wouldn't want to stream a torrent but I can download software email, etc like I am on a slow DSL connection. FWIW

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Deslock]

There's nothing that special about the iPhone...

The reason that everyone goes on about its interface is that so many other phones are such a PITA to use. Beyond that, there's also:

- visual voice mail
- multitouch
- capacitance touchscreen (allows for effortless finger dragging, navigation, and character input)
- automatic screen orientation switching without lag
- larger than 3", higher than QVGA screen in a less than 5 ounce device
- larger than 3", higher than QVGA screen in a less than 0.5" thick device
- quick and reliable syncing

Of the 16 touchscreen PDAs I've owned (since my old USR Pilot 1000) and of all the others I've used, the iPhone is the most effectively integrated and balanced between being a phone, web browser, and media player.

On the other hand, it lacks numerous features common to other smartphones. That doesn't negate the iPhone from being "special"; it just means that all phones including the iPhone have pros and cons. If it doesn't match up with your priorities, get something else.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[shellbeach]

Hmm...just struck me as a strange statement. Doesn't everyone put their phone on the charger overnight? It just seemed the common thing for me to do (not an iPhone owner)...I figured everyone charged or 'topped off' their phone nightly.

They should, but most people don't. They get a bit of a thrill seeing if they can beat their old record for the number of days without charge. They also enjoy forgetting to charge it, and then having a dead phone. It's the little things in life ...

Seriously, though, it's mainly because phone salespeople are incredibly ignorant about Li-ion batteries. They always tell you that you should charge from empty -- whereas in reality, it's the worst thing you can do for a Li-ion battery (see, for example http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm). Mind you, maybe it helps them sell replacement batteries?

My friends look at me like I'm mad when I tell them to charge their phone every night. It's funny how, even though it's been years since anyone's used a NiCad rechargeable, the "charge from empty" mentality still holds ...

Re:What about outside the USA?

[JohnnyGTO]

Pick your poison and pay the price. If I need to play games I got a PSP or XBox. AND with custom firmware from XDA Developers I have a great phone. If iPhones tethered I'd steal my Dad's.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[FrkyD]

Installing a custom firmware from XDA is about the same as hacking the iphone. Hacking the iPhone makes it possible to tether it.

Actually, having switched from a hacked TyTn to a hacked iPhone I would say your dad should be hiding his phone.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Surur]

The samsung Omnia has a 3.2 inch 400x240 screen, and is 0.5 inches and weights 5 ounces, and uses a better implementation of exchange activesync than the iPhone.

The iPhone gets less "special" every day.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tethering by USB doesn't always need drivers to be installed. Plug in a Sony EricssonãK800i or k810i (only ones I've tested, but others will probably work) into a Windows computer. You'll get prompted for drivers, but that's just for the sync features. If you cancel them, it will show up as a generic USB ethernet device, with the "ethernet cable" connection status representing a network connection.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[RockDoctor]

That's between 20 and 35 years out of date. It's got a monolithic Russia (missing the undoubtedly important nations of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, and the politically sensitive "allies" of Tadjikstan and Uzbekistan), so is more than 17/18 years old ; it's got a Bangladesh, which means it's post 1974/5 IIRC (Pakistani civil war). There's deliberate mention of "Palestine" in there, which is strange in an ostensibly American product targeted at children. I'd have expected the Americo-Israeli Thought-Police would have caught this before it became public.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[mrchaotica]

It also mentions "Caribbean," which is a sea rather than a country.

In other words, relax: it's a cartoon; it's not really meant to be educational anyway. They just stuck in whatever rhymed. In case you didn't get it, that was my joke: that Americans didn't care about real geography lessons, but wanted to watch cartoon characters singing songs instead.

By the way, it was made in 1993 (and, according to that article, made a whole bunch more errors than just the ones you or I mentioned).

Re:What about outside the USA?

[NulDevice]

I bought a 2125 a few years back, and I considered using it tethered. I had the cable, I had the software, etc. I also had an unlimited data plan. I asked AT&T first, thankfully, and they informed politely that tethering my laptop would be a breach of contract, since the fine print of my data plan said "no tethering." They could either terminate my service or, more likely, start charging me their tethered data rate, which was something absurd like $.10/kilobyte. I did some research and apparently it's pretty easy for them to tell if you're tethered, at least on the HTC phones like mine.

I asked why an "unlimited" data plan wouldn't allow me to use my "unlimited" data any way I saw fit...well, see, because people still use less data on a phone than on a modem. So they're playing the profit margin odds.

It's stupid, frankly.

I can almost guarantee that AT&T screamed bloody murder the moment it hit the app store. And I'm sure international app stores got it yanked for the same reason - AT&T doesn't want this app out in the wild *anywhere*, where it could possibly leak back into their market.

I've had four domestic cell providers in the past decade and they've ALL SUCKED. Almost as bad as the cable companies.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Deslock]

The samsung Omnia has a 3.2 inch 400x240 screen, and is 0.5 inches and weights 5 ounces, and uses a better implementation of exchange activesync than the iPhone.

The iPhone gets less "special" every day.

You're correct in that as technology improves and companies innovate, almost all gadgets get less special everyday. The Omnia is very cool, but it has pros and cons like all devices... some of its advantages and disadvantages vs the iPhone:

+ Compatible with more media formats
+ A *much* better camera (the iPhone's is crap)
+ Can shoot video
+ Has a radio
+ Supports more input/navigation methods
+ Has a removable battery
+ Is a bit lighter
- A less responsive touch screen
- No multitouch
- Smaller screen
- Lower screen resolution
- No visual voice mail
- Currently expensive
- Inferior predictive/corrective keyboard entry
- Various interface quirks (the WM UI below Samsung's outer layers isn't finger-friendly, its auto-rotate is reportedly flakey, memory issues, etc... it's a new device so hopefully some of that will be resolved by software updates)

If the Omnia had a capacitance rather than resistive screen (as was originally rumored), and if it was higher than WQVA resolution (which is only 60% of the iPhone's HVGA), I'd be more excited about it. Still, it's a slick handheld and if I was to go back to WM, this would be one of the phones I'd consider.

Re:What about outside the USA?

[Skuld-Chan]

Its not really a thrill, I just forget usually.

That said my Nokia n95 has a battery life of at least 4 days

Re:What about outside the USA?

[sjames]

just a fyi, the Unlimited Data plan at AT&T has a fraudulent, soft limit of 5GB. Unless they've changed it...

If you pass this, they'll sometimes send you a letter offering to let you out of your data package, implying in the letter that if you don't accept, they'll renege it for you.

There, that's better.

battery drain

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like using the wifi plus 3g would have a huge impact on battery life. Ill go out an buy an iPhone the second someone can uncripple the bluetooth and allow tethering through there.

ATT protecting limited 3G bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

Its that simple

Re:ATT protecting limited 3G bandwidth

[bleh-of-the-huns]

No, its not, its ATT protecting its revenue stream b y charging an insane (I believe it is $80 per month for the laptop connect plans), at which point ATT does not care whether or not you use a pc express card or a phone or usb dongle to use your laptop.

Re:ATT protecting limited 3G bandwidth

[@madeus]

I think you'll find 3G bandwith is expensive because it very much is still a limited resource. Unlike, say text message handling, it's not just pure greed on the part of the operators.

The thing about making 3G bandwidth cheap and affordable to everyone (as it is rapidly becoming in Europe) is that very quickly a small number of jerks will start grossly over utilizing it (e.g. by using it to download movies or large amounts of data, even using it at home, just so it doesn't ). Hence, their get quota limits with 3G - essentially because people are greedy and unable to exercise reasonable self control.

These same very small number of idiots - who would use up all the available bandwidth with P2P software to download films and games they are too cheap to pay for - will then moan when quota and contention ratios take effect that providers are shafting them by not providing them with "the service they have paid for".

Providers (wired or wireless) can't win. It's either a rip off because it's "too expensive" (i.e. when people are asked to pay for what they are using) or because "they are not getting the service [they imagine] they are entitled to" (i.e. when there are quotas or contention ratios in effect).

Re:ATT protecting limited 3G bandwidth

[jmcvetta]

The thing about making 3G bandwidth cheap and affordable to everyone (as it is rapidly becoming in Europe) is that very quickly a small number of jerks will start grossly over utilizing it (e.g. by using it to download movies or large amounts of data, even using it at home, just so it doesn't ). Hence, their get quota limits with 3G

But AT&T is not imposing a quota, or propsing to bill by the gigabyte. I would be pretty surprised if anyone here except a few anonymous cowards would object such measures. Rather, AT&T/Apple have crippled the device by disabling a feature that many users highly value.

who would use up all the available bandwidth with P2P software to download films and games they are too cheap to pay for

It's pretty important to make sure those damn poor people don't have access to good entertainment, eh?

Re:ATT protecting limited 3G bandwidth

[@madeus]

*glances at account history*

Well Mr Toll,

But AT&T is not imposing a quota, or propsing to bill by the gigabyte.

That's exactly what they do. The exception is the default data plan exclusively offered with the iPhone, but you can still use another SIM with different AT&T plan on the iPhone and do all the tethering you can afford.

It's pretty important to make sure those damn poor people don't have access to good entertainment, eh?

All the "poor people" who have laptops they want to tether their iPhones to so they can download large files while away from home? Honestly, that's not a definition of "poor" I'm familiar with.

WTF?

[Johnno74]

I just found out that it isn't possible to use the iphone as a 3g modem on a laptop on Friday. I was quite shocked, but knowing apple, I shouldn't have been.

Apple certainly are turning the mobile phone marketplace on its head. They are pulling stunts that no other manufacture would DREAM of.

Instead of making a device that is as useful as possible, they want to lock down the possibly uses of their product.

Steve jobs is a control freak of a whole new magnitude and the chances of me ever being tempted to buy an iphone just dropped from slim to none.

Re:WTF?

[TheRaven64]

I was quite shocked, but knowing apple, I shouldn't have been.

I was shocked to learn this about the original iPhone, since it was only since I switched to OS X that I started regularly using a phone for Internet access via Bluetooth. Apple made it really easy to set it up (there's a little Bluetooth wizard that does everything for you), and by not supporting this on the iPhone they have made sure that pretty much any other make of phone integrates better with their OS than their own phone.

My old (cheap) Nokia phone can sync calendars with iCal, sync contacts with Address Book, and be used as a modem, all via Bluetooth. The iPhone needs a cable to do any of these (and can't do the third one even with a cable).

Re:WTF?

[Trashman]

I'm more inlined to believe that this is likely at&t's doing not Apple. at&t charges extra for tethering on other phones and since the iPhone has a special plan for data, they don't want iPhone users going nuts on the 3G network and affecting the percieved speed of the network.

At&t (as well as the other 3 major US Cariers) have been known to intentionally cripple phones so that users can't take full advantage of the features.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of making a device that is as useful as possible, they want to lock down the possibly uses of their product.

My one button Apple mouse disagrees.

Re:WTF?

[phoomp]

AT&T can't decided what is available in the App Store. At best, they can only make requests. Stop making excuses for Apple. Even if they have some sort of agreement with AT&T that prevents AT&T customers from tethering, the iTunes store is internationalized to the point that they could easily offer the tethering app to less restrictive countries and not to AT&T customers.

Re:WTF?

[dindi]

That one also makes me dizzy.....

My nokias sync, do share net, and some even support sending SMS stright from the address book, my iPhone does not.

That is something that still does not fit in my head. Still I am happier with the iphone.... but if they bridge this gap for me it is the absolute winner.....

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new to the mobile phone market.

Buy any manufacturer's phone through Verizon for instance...

Re:WTF?

[Trashman]

I'm not making excuses for apple. I don't even own an iphone fyi.

A third party tethering solution is not the same as if apple provided the functionality to the core device. Even though at&t can't dictate terms to other carriers in other countries, you can't deny that they don't have some influence over what features apple can/cannot implement.

Re:WTF?

[hobbit]

AT&T can't decided what is available in the App Store. At best, they can only make requests.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract

Stop making excuses for Apple. Even if they have some sort of agreement with AT&T that prevents AT&T customers from tethering, the iTunes store is internationalized to the point that they could easily offer the tethering app to less restrictive countries and not to AT&T customers.

Could you please elaborate, paying particular attention to exactly what details you know about how Apple's DRM works with respect to internationalization?

Re:WTF?

[pledibus]

My old (cheap) Nokia phone can sync calendars with iCal, sync contacts with Address Book, and be used as a modem, all via Bluetooth. The iPhone needs a cable to do any of these

That's untrue. My iPhone syncs to my Mac automatically over the net whenever I make a change to my calendar or address book. That's a big win compared to my old Treo, which required a cable to sync and didn't sync reliably ...

(and can't do the third one even with a cable).

That's true if you haven't jailbroken your iPhone, or if you weren't lucky enough to get a copy of netshare before it got removed.

Re:WTF?

[dafing]

you can send SMS (txt messages in NZ speak) from the iPhone address book, go to a contact and tap the option to send them a message :)

Re:WTF?

[dindi]

nonono... I meant to send SMS to a contact from your MAC/OSX from the machine's address book :)

You just need a paired nokia (or other supported phone - not iphone), and just type a message that gets sent through your phone :)

Taco Is An Idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

And those that purchase iPhones to "jailbreak" them are just as dumb. If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone.

Why go thru the hassle of hacking something that you know is against their rules and agreements? You will get shut down in a minute anyways.

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[SanityInAnarchy]

If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone.

Fine, show me something else that's as useful as a jailbreak'd iPhone.

I'm not going to get one, but then, I have principles -- I'd really rather not support Apple in their effort to become worse than Microsoft. But from a purely practical standpoint...

You will get shut down in a minute anyways.

And I'd be back up in less than a minute. Do you really think Apple is faster than the "hackers"?

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[txoof]

And those that purchase iPhones to "jailbreak" them are just as dumb. If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone.

Why go thru the hassle of hacking something that you know is against their rules and agreements?

Why buy some great piece of hardware that has awesomeness written all over it just because the manufacturer is a little silly? Why wouldn't you? There's so much potential for hacking in that little box it's insane. The iPhone isn't the only platform that screams, "awesome hacking here", there are many others including FIC's smart phone, nokia, palm and all the others.

Sure, Apple is restrictive, but who cares. If there's a way to hack around the restrictions for the joy of hacking, why wouldn't you? Of course this assumes you're not just Joe Consumer who expects a fully open mobile computing platform. If you are, forget the iphone. If you want to hack on a fun little mobile computing device, the iphone is great.

Let's not get carried away and use absolutes on the inter-tubes. Not everyone who buys an iphone and jail-breaks it is an idiot. Those who expect a jail-broken iphone to have the same functionality as a nokia, or those who complain because they didn't read their contract are probably lacking in the common sense department, however.

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[phoomp]

Dude, it takes the hackers less than a week to jailbreak the iPhone's firmware ... in some cases it's been jailbroken *before* Apple released it. It takes Apple *months* to release a new firmware (and, of course, the user has the option to not install the new firmware and wait until it's been jailbroken).

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[mdwh2]

their ... agreements

"their agreements"? I think this sums up the point with EULAs - an agreement is between you and something else; something decided only by them is not, by definition, an "agreement".

Anyhow, maybe the person's rules "and agreements" say that he can do this, so that's tough luck to Apple.

Although I do agree - people should buy one of the many just as good and cheaper phones that don't have this problem.

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[tzanger]

Fine, show me something else that's as useful as a jailbreak'd iPhone.

HTC Touch Diamond? Samsung i900? Sony X1?

I'm in the middle of trying to choose my next phone. I was going to get an iphone, but no DUN, HID nor A2DP put that one to bed real fast. Diamond or Raphael (with the keyboard) are my current picks. i900 was nice but 240x400, while nicer than the iphone's 320x240, is still kind of shite on a brand new phone. Sony looks *really* nice but again, proprietary connectors, pre-reviews foretelling of a shitty keyboard and delays delays delays... probably not.

The Diamond is here today though, and at 640x480 is head and shoulders above the iphone for resolution. It's also an Android target, should that matter to you (it does to me).

Re:Taco Is An Idiot

[SanityInAnarchy]

It's also an Android target, should that matter to you (it does to me).

Can I actually run Android on it now?

Pretty Clear

[tonyray]

The AT&T contract allows the owner of the iPhone to use the Net. Sharing that connection with unrelated people would constitute theft of service (just like sharing your TV cable, for example). Creating a program whose purpose is to fascilitate theft of service is a legally bad position to be in.

Re:Pretty Clear

[lolocaust]

What are you talking about? It's not "theft of service" if it's your own laptop. You'd have to be pretty close to someone's iPhone to "steal" bandwidth, thanks to the relatively short range of bluetooth. And just because a knife can facilitate murder doesn't mean it was created for that purpose.

Re:Pretty Clear

[vertinox]

Sharing that connection with unrelated people would constitute theft of service (just like sharing your TV cable, for example).

Is it illegal for me to share my Comcast internet connection with my room mate with a wireless router?

So what is the difference between me sharing with them or my father next door?

Either way, the software wasn't intended to share out internet connectivity with strangers. It was designed to give the owner the ability to give their own laptop an internet connection.

Re:Pretty Clear

[LordHatrus]

I'm not sure how this app works, but other people (jail breakers) don't do this over bluetooth, they establish an ad-hoc wifi connection with their laptop and start up a proxy on their phone. All in all, I'm never one to side with The Man, but I can see why AT&T wouldn't want people to have unlimited download plans with a laptop on 3G. There isn't a whole lot of bandwidth to go around, and the only reason they could possibly offer unlimited data plans for the iphone is that they can reasonably bet on a relatively low traffic flow, as compared to some git on his laptop with torrents running over 3G. (Which, I'll note, is something AT&T _will_ boot you off their network for)

Re:Pretty Clear

[Richard_at_work]

It would be theft of service, if your service contract forbids tethering.

It's back, you weenies

[DurendalMac]

The queue is really lagging. The app is back up and still for sale. Come on, Slashdot mods, stay current!

Re:It's back, you weenies

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's been removed again...

Re:It's back, you weenies

[DurendalMac]

Blah, I stand corrected. It was put back up but now it's down AGAIN. WTF?

Re:It's back, you weenies

[Kohath]

The story about it being back will show up tomorrow or the next day.

Slashdot is more of a weekly news/opinion magazine than a timely source of information. They should probably change it to "old news for slow nerds and propaganda about what our editors hate".

Re:It's back, you weenies

[ClaraBow]

It is no longer available as of this morning. I just checked and it isn't there. So something be going on. It has been available on and off since yesterday. Maybe Apple and ATT are playing a game of tug-of-war...

Re:It's back, you weenies

[Clete2]

This is exactly why I began reading Engadget for my up-to-the-minute news and Slashdot for the 'big picture' news. Granted, Engadget is mostly focused on gadgets, but still.

Re:It's back, you weenies

[noob749]

back? not back? idunno... old age is getting to me and i can't hit the refresh button as fast as i used to...

here are two links of interest though:
- http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/01/new_app_lets_your_mac_share_your_iphones_internet_connection.html
- http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/01/ten_step_guide_to_sharing_your_iphones_connection_with_netshare.html

my money says it'll be back in some form at some point for some reason.

Re:It's back, you weenies

[donutello]

Fixed for you:

The story about it being back will show up tomorrow and the next day.

I'm starting to miss the dupes. I don't remember any egregious recent ones.

Re:It's back, you weenies

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite correct. Slashdot is a comedic weekly news/opinion magazine. The slogan should be "jokes about old news for slow nerds and propaganda about what our editors hate".

Re:It's back, you weenies

[Anonymous Coward]

Why change it to old news? It doesn't say "up to the minute" or "current news." It just says, stuff that matters.

Old News

[Anonymous Coward]

This is SUPER old news (as far as the Internet goes) because as of mid-day yesterday it was put back up on the app store.

http://www.tuaw.com/2008/08/01/what-happened-to-netshare/

people just need to know

[speedtux]

You don't like their terms, don't use their product.

Exactly. And in order to ensure that as many people as possible know about Apple's restrictions and the consequences of those restrictions before they get locked into a contract, we keep talking about it.

Incidentally, any of the S60 Nokias, many Palms and many Windows Mobile phones have no restrictions on tethering. They're also cheaper than the iPhone. And the Nokias use the same web browser as the iPhone.

Now, what exactly are you trying to say?

Re:people just need to know

[Anonymous Coward]

And the Nokias use the same web browser as the iPhone.

I didn't know Apple released Safari for Nokias.

Re:people just need to know

[shutdown -p now]

It's not the same browser, but it is the same rendering engine.

Re:people just need to know

[dindi]

Even if Nokia used Safari (which it does not), it would still suck to use it on a screen half the size, and operate it with buttons.

I own an e65 nokia (quite pricey and feature rich business edition Nokia) and I changed it to an iPhone, mainly because of the interface (buttons, small screen) and the browser (which SUCKS IMO),

I actually happen to use my phone to check pages, email over GPRS, and use the phone as a browser many times over WIFI while listening to music.... oh well, now listening music on the E65 is just an other thing that sucks terribly.....

so "people just need to know " ... check your facts before lecturing people about what THEIR phone has, otherwise it is clear that you do not know or own any of the devices you mentioned.....

Re:people just need to know

[Richard_at_work]

You don't like their terms, don't use their product.

Exactly. And in order to ensure that as many people as possible know about Apple's restrictions and the consequences of those restrictions before they get locked into a contract, we keep talking about it.

You know, if people just fucking read the shit they sign, you wouldn't have to waste your breath talking about it.

But oh no, its the big bad corporations fault for the crap people lock themselves into...

Re:people just need to know

[k2r]

I switched from an E61i to the iPhone and the iPhone is so ridiculously much better in everything it can do from a usability perspective that I really don't care about anything it may be lacking compared to the E61i.

Even Exchange Sync is close to perfect, a very nice product to use.

Re:people just need to know

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got an E71 and everyone I've shown it to says that it's better than an iPhone. It's really a great phone.

Re:people just need to know

[speedtux]

You know, if people just fucking read the shit they sign, you wouldn't have to waste your breath talking about it.

Given that you are an OS X user, there's a good chance that you didn't make an informed decision yourself. So... direct your criticism at yourself.

Re:people just need to know

[ceoyoyo]

Sure they do. You have to pay AT&T extra for the tethering plan and then you get a monthly cap of 5GB instead of unlimited data.

The reason the iPhone doesn't tether is because Apple tried to force AT&T to offer a really unlimited plan and then AT&T wormed out of it by insisting that connection sharing not be allowed. So we jailbreak our phones and screw AT&T.

Re:people just need to know

[Richard_at_work]

Wow, do you live on sterotypes or are you just an asshole? I read everything I sign, electronically or not, EULAs included. I make informed choices, which is why I am pissed off that no one else seemingly can take responsibility for their own actions - a contract is something you read before you sign it, so stop crying to your mother when you find out it covers something you don't like.

Re:people just need to know

[dindi]

I am happy you are happy. you know it is really subjective, and some guys told me my phone was sooooo much better than XYZ phone... Then someone asked me if I could help jailbreaking an iPhone..... Then I saw how Safari worked, how rtiting an SMS worked, and how writing a mail was jut WAY EASIER, than trying to do ANYTHING on my $600 Nokia.

Then someone asked me to write some "web app" for the iphone, that techinally paid for a phone (+$$). So I grabbed one, and I am still holding to it with a firm grip, and my nokia is in the shelf.

Then again, if you are happy with it, sure, be happy, but my e65 crashed left and right, was useless, hard to operate, and was a poor design overall....... so I switched and I am happy....

Re:people just need to know

[speedtux]

I read everything I sign, electronically or not, EULAs included. I make informed choices, which is why I am pissed off that no one else seemingly can take responsibility for their own actions - a contract is something you read before you sign it,

Your contract doesn't contain the totality of what you need to know about a product. Your purchase contract does not tell you about the deficiencies or limitations of the iPhone or Macintosh.

so stop crying to your mother when you find out it covers something you don't like.

I'm don't have to cry to anybody: I did look at the iPhone in detail, I did read the restrictions and limitations, and I concluded that it's an overpriced piece of shit. And to save other people the trouble of wasting as much time as I did with doing so, I'm sharing my conclusions.

Re:people just need to know

[Richard_at_work]

Your contract doesn't contain the totality of what you need to know about a product. Your purchase contract does not tell you about the deficiencies or limitations of the iPhone or Macintosh.

In the context we are talking about here, the contract contained everything relevent to the current discussion - tethering is not allowed.

As for your other irrelevent mumblings, I never buy on the day of release and I always test drive.

I'm don't have to cry to anybody: I did look at the iPhone in detail, I did read the restrictions and limitations, and I concluded that it's an overpriced piece of shit. And to save other people the trouble of wasting as much time as I did with doing so, I'm sharing my conclusions.

So we should all just bow to your superior knowledge that the iPhone is 'an overpriced piece of shit'? There are many people that would disagree with you.

Once again, you can take your stereotypes and stick them up your arse. You made an assumption, one that is totally false.

Re:people just need to know

[@madeus]

Except the S60 Nokia's have a really crappy operating system, that's sluggish (often fails to respond/repaint properly), and has considerably inferior map, mail and web browser applications. I gave up using them they were so crappy.

The text message handling on Nokia S60 phones is good, and the IMAP/POP client wasn't the worst, but it's nowhere near as responsive or functional as on the iPhone (which does a much better job of attachments).

The web browser on the Nokia is utterly crap compared to the browser on the iPhone they just happen to share SOME of the same code in the rendering engine but it's not the same browser by a long shot. IMO you are better running Opera on the S60 than the built in browser (and I'm not normally a fan of Opera).

The turn-by-turn navigation for the built in map app was nice (though costs extra to activate on Nokias - the money goes to Nokia directly) but this is negated as the GPS on the Nokia is utterly useless in built up areas, and takes a good 10 minutes or more to get a signal even out in the open, largely due to a lack of AGPS signal support by carriers.

Some of the hardware on some models - like the N95 - is technically very good, and arguably better than on the iPhone (save the screen size). I liked the N95's 5 MP camera, for example. Unfortunately the software is a total let down - the camera would frequently fail to initialize when I tried to take a picture and I'd have to restart the phone, or at least open and close the camera app. When it did start, it would often take a while to respond.

Something like the the S60 based Nokia E61 (which I owned two of, after losing the first) is a great Blackberry alternative with it's Qwerty keyboard and better screen layout for browsing - I think it's miles better than the Blackberry - but it's still inferior to the iPhone at pretty much everything (arguably it's better at text message/email sending - not as great at reading emails though).

Windows Mobile is flakey beyond belief and not even in the running - I'm not touching that again with a barge pole - it's as stable as a ropey install of WIndows 98.

Re:people just need to know

[Anonymous Coward]

In the context we are talking about here, the contract contained everything relevent to the current discussion - tethering is not allowed.

Wrong.

So we should all just bow to your superior knowledge that the iPhone is 'an overpriced piece of shit'? There are many people that would disagree with you.

Apple marketing droids and fan-boys would like nothing more than for Apple to be able to spread their marketing lies without any kind of balance, wouldn't you?

You made an assumption, one that is totally false.

I find my assumption that you are a total idiot confirmed by you ravings.

Re:people just need to know

[Anonymous Coward]

am not a apple fan,but the rumers thats going around just now about apple inc is bad at the moment,the way they treat customers is appalling,they put DRM on everything thay sell to us it's not going to solve enything by puting Drm on stuff,its just going to make more people hack in to software.and you loose alot of customers with DRM as well,what do you get with a apple product defecate shit

What about the iPod Touch?

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand (as far as it's understandable) the necessity of locking down the iPhone to prevent users from having too much fun with the closed cell nets, but what about iPod Touch users? I don't understand why the iTouch should be locked down to the extent that it is, given that it's only for use on *my* network! The appealing part of the iTouch is the fact it's a miniature OS X box, but the unappealing part is that I can't even use it!

I'd really like to SSH into my other machines. To do so, I have to install crappy, unsupported, and security-compromising hacks from untrusted third parties (not that the first party is trusted, ahem). Why is it so hard to access the itouch filesystem, to install open software, or to even be able to compile basic gnu utilities! That's not much to ask on a platform that can easily support these functions, which would definitely be a selling point.

so are you

[speedtux]

And those that purchase iPhones to "jailbreak" them are just as dumb. If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone. ... and we are going to continue to talk about what Apple's restrictions mean and that many other phones have more capabilities than the iPhone at a lower price.

If Apple were to set the standard for smartphones, with their restrictions, DRM, and stripped down functionality, smartphone users would be in trouble. Let's stop Apple now while there is still time.

For those that can't understand the summary...

[OneMadMuppet]

"Share your iPhone's EDGE or 3G Internet connection with your computer using NetShare. NetShare provides a SOCKS5 proxy for your computer to connect to."

Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[maynard]

Yes, it has a great interface. Safari is the best web browser I've seen on a phone. And the email client is excellent as well. Here in Boston, the 3G coverage is good. I like all of this.

But I can't sync my calendar to my employer's Oracle Calendaring system. And Apple appears to be holding up any OTA sync application that might circumvent syncing through their "MobileMe" so-called service. I also can't sync my contacts to a central server or OTA without MobileMe. Here's my problem:

Apple has no right to view my contacts or schedule. By forcing a sync through their servers, they become a single-point-of-failure for my workflow, and further, they gain potential access to confidential business information. There is no way I'll go for that.

Apple: get a grip. You can have my money, but you cannot have my private and personal information at your whim. Also, I need utility from my phone; I didn't buy the damn thing to show it off.

Finally, I've had to jailbrake the phone for MobileTerminal and ssh, which is also critical to my job.

I'm pretty close to returning the iPhone for a Blackberry. Shame I've been tied to AT&T for the next two years though.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[tgd]

No offense, although I'll probably be moderated as a troll for this, but you're just an idiot, plain and simple.

It doesn't take a triple digit IQ to know the phone didn't have SSH and a terminal, so either you're trolling or really are an idiot if you bought the phone knowing that only to turn around and complain about it.

Blackberry also passes all e-mail and everything else through their servers. Again, troll or idiot.

And there was no secrets about Mobile Me.

So which is it? Troll or idiot?

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[Reverend528]

Also, I need utility from my phone;

Perhaps you should have researched the phone before buying it. Hell, you could've read one of the dozens of articles here on slashdot with the words "iPhone" and "lock" in the title.

I didn't buy the damn thing to show it off.

So, you bought an iPhone hoping to use dozens of features that it doesn't support, but don't want it for the one thing it is good at?

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[maynard]

"Idiot", by your perspective.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[Kawahee]

It doesn't take a triple digit IQ to know the phone didn't have SSH and a terminal, so either you're trolling or really are an idiot if you bought the phone knowing that only to turn around and complain about it.

Hell, the thing doesn't even have MMS. To be honest he probably bought it for it's internet connectivity, but then again every other 3G device is capable of this as well.

Good thing AT&T doesn't offer the device on anything longer than a 24-month contract, otherwise the grandparent might be crying foul over how he didn't realise just how long three years was.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Both

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[maynard]

To be honest he probably bought it for it's internet connectivity, but then again every other 3G device is capable of this as well.

That's exactly why I bought it. Because I use a Mac at work and wanted a seamless solution for connectivity while away from the desk. I bought the iPhone to replace an old LG Verizon phone two years past its end of contract date.

I do like the iPhone. But I very much dislike Apple's behavior here. I want both functionality and my privacy rights. I don't give a shit which company we're talking about, that's my bottom line. Which is why I jailbroke the phone. For perfectly legitimate purposes, I might add.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[guice]

It doesn't take a triple digit IQ to know the phone didn't have SSH and a terminal, so either you're trolling or really are an idiot if you bought the phone knowing that only to turn around and complain about it.

*cough*He said:

Finally, I've had to jailbrake the phone for MobileTerminal and ssh, which is also critical to my job.

If you jailbreak your phone, you can indeed install ssh on the iPhone.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[Kawahee]

So you bought it for it's internet connectivity, even though every other 3G device is capable of this as well?

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[maynard]

Yup. I like the email application. And I like how easily it works with the Mac too. I just want my privacy and a bit more utility. I'll even pay for it.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[tzanger]

How is ssh on the iphone? Doesn't the on-screen keyboard get in the way of a decent (or even minimal 80x25) terminal screen?

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[AySz88]

It doesn't take a triple digit IQ to know the phone didn't have SSH and a terminal

I'm pretty sure that the parent was expecting to get the third-party app(s) without jailbreaking, and wasn't expecting that there wouldn't/couldn't be those tools (back when the apps had to be all Safari-based). At least give the guy a little credit.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[maynard]

Pretty good. MobileTerminal had two really nasty bugs that were recently squashed:

A) Turning the phone landscape used to render a useless keyboard - one where some of the keyboard keys rendered off screen. Fixed.

B) A nasty auto-correct bug that made entering some passwords next to impossible. Fixed.

At this point I could get an automated email or txt message from my server farm, be anywhere in the city (at a movie; at a show; whatever) and login to fix it. I *really* like that.

Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

apple Are the f-ck-n- worst company in the world and thats the truth does no one LISTENING,it's only haif-wits that give apple inc youre money out youre pocket,and haha to every one on this page thats buying any apple products from them

Uh... Tether a lappy to the net, or vice versa?

[Anonymous Coward]

The two are semantically very different... So what did the app do? Did it connect the lappy to the net via the iPhone, or did it connect the iPhone to the net via the lappy?

Re:Uh... Tether a lappy to the net, or vice versa?

[Guy Harris]

Did it connect the lappy to the net via the iPhone

Yes. It's a SOCKS proxy; you point other machines, such as your notebook, at it as a SOCKS proxy, and network requests that go through whatever code paths can be switched to a SOCKS proxy get sent to the phone's proxy app, and it forwards them to the Internet over the cellphone connection.

$10 ?

[smoker2]

that seems fine, but it only pays for the software. Who pays for the extra traffic over the network ?
My HTC handheld has Internet connection sharing (WM5) supplied for free in the base install. But I have to pay to use that functionality - not MS, but my ISP, which is T-Mobile.
I get 3 GB transfer per month for £10. I could get 1GB transfer free with my line rental, but understandably, they don't like you using that to feed a laptop. Not many people download huge files on a handheld, but a laptop is a different matter. HSDPA is nice to have available to a laptop, but FTP is blocked which is a bugger.

Re:$10 ?

[jsebrech]

that seems fine, but it only pays for the software. Who pays for the extra traffic over the network ?

If they don't want you to use a service, they shouldn't offer it.

AT&T has no right whatsoever to restrict what people do as long as they stay in the confines of their contracts. If AT&T doesn't want people to use unlimited bandwidth, they shouldn't say their data plan is unlimited.

I thought we'd seen this through already with the cable and DSL companies? If you can't offer unlimited bandwidth at a consumer price point (and in all honesty, nobody can deliver that), then don't pretend to sell it. It's false advertising, and it's illegal for a reason.

Re:$10 ?

[S-100]

What extra traffic? Your typical user will be accessing email or web pages over the tethered connection. Without the tether, he'd probably be doing close to the same thing, only on the iPhone.

Not everyone prefers to use the iPhone's tiny screen for web browsing and its relatively lame email client when their laptop is directly at hand.

Why do my clients?

[Anonymous Coward]

Several of my clients are now getting the iPhone 3G. Some are lawyers and figure MobileMe is the solution to their email connectivity.

I of course think of all the information that Apple has access to. Contacts, email and Calendar items on top of music preferences, purchase history AND credit cards!

Apple products are not computers. The iPhone is a microwave. Magic happens when you push buttons but it's very complex, happens behind the scenes and voids your warranty if you tweak it.

I have a 1st gen iPhone and hacked it. I often will configure a vanilla iPhone and suffer through the awful non-customized icons, lack of productivity apps that I have installed.

Eloi. Apple will usher the world of the Eloi.

Nothing to see here...

[itsdapead]

What exactly are AT&T/Apple trying to accomplish here?

Quite simple:

1. AT&T (like other mobile operators) would like you to pay extra for the privilege of using your phone as a modem. This has nothing to do with Apple or iPhone: e.g. the same thing applies to my Windows Mobile smartphone on T-Mobile (UK).

2. Apple needs to play nicely with AT&T and its other mobile operators and can't be seen encouraging people to breach the terms & conditions.

3. Presumably, someone at Apple OK'd this software without checking the AT&T T&Cs. Someone else spotted the error and took it down.

Nothing to see, move along.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[Realistic_Dragon]

The difference with T-mobile UK is that they _do_ let you pay more to tether your laptop. There is no such option at all with the iPhone, which seems ludicrous.

The T-mobile price is something like 7.50gbp/mo for 1gb (no tethering) and 10/mo for 3gb with tething allowed, which hardly seems unreasonable to me.

They even play nicely with Linux laptops, it works fine with my Eee.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[__aanqgi3349]

Not like all other mobile carriers.

I use T-Mobile with a data plan (cheaper than anyone else's as far as I can tell). The company's tech support folks talked me through the process of setting up my computer for tethering with the phone.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[kurt555gs]

My Nokia N95 8GB can tether on EGPRS or AT&T 3G no problem. And not only in Safari, but mail, SSH whatever. It is just a MODEM.

I get about 460 K/Bs tethered to Windows on 3G with a USB hose. Using the N95 for a modem with my MAC , I get about the same over bluetooth, and about 1.3 M/Bs over USB.

No need to pay someone for an app that should be standard, or at least free.

Nokia even has a cute little webserver (Apache) along with dynamic DNS http://mymobilesite.net/ so I can share my content either locally or over the net on the EGPRS/3G or Wifi.

I know the iPhone is really kewl, however it has some catching up to do with the Nokia. Not technically so much, but in regards to control over who is "doing this cat".

Re:Nothing to see here...

[QuoteMstr]

Hey. I didn't know about the mymobilesite.com thing. Thanks for the heads up!

Re:Nothing to see here...

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

Nokia quote the battery life of the N95 as 3.5 hours talk/data time for 3G and 5 hours for 2G. Is that right?

If so, your N95 is hella-kewl while it lasts.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[QuoteMstr]

Yes. The battery life is atrocious. However, that can be mitigated by having lots of chargers, and by turning on power-save options.

Keep in mind, too, that that's 3-5 hours of talk time. Just sitting in my pocket, the phone's charge will last days.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[mr100percent]

As for #1, its not a matter of paying extra (since I'm not aware of any other iPhone+tethering plans), but more an issue of bandwith. Apparently Apple is loath to allow bandwidth-hogs as apps unless they are on WiFi, because they could overload the T1? connection on the 3G cell towers, making the rest of the users suffer.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[rtechie]

AT&T (like other mobile operators) would like you to pay extra for the privilege of using your phone as a modem.

For the record, this appears to be part of at least some versions of the "Unlimited Data Plan". The corporate Blackberry phones we get through AT&T don't have "phone as modem", but my girlfriend's AT&T Tilt with an unlimited data plan CAN be used as a modem.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[Scudsucker]

What do bandwidth hogs have in common with the Easter Bunny? They don't exist. There are no bandwidth hogs, only companies that oversell their connections.

Re:Nothing to see here...

[jellomizer]

I was able to do it with my Samsung sync via. AT&T. I used Bluetooth as a modem and connected to the AT&T G3 network on my Mac. with no problems. As the amount of bandwith used with the iPhone can match a normal use PC. I don't see it as that big of a deal. It is not like anyone is crazy enough to do high bandwidth suff over Cell Connection.

Whats funnier...

[ArIck]

... is the fact that Apple has been switching sides on this issue:

First they allow, two hours later its gone, then after a day they allow once again and eventually bham its gone. Cant they make up their mind whether to allow the App or not.

C'mon Apple think about all the fanboys who think you are perfect*.

* Before you mod me as troll do note I am typing this on my Macbook Pro and was about to get this app after work when it jsut disappeared again.

Re:Whats funnier...

[TehZorroness]

The funny thing is, there was not a hint of troll in that post. This is just a dangerous topic of discussion.

Re:Whats funnier...

[ArIck]

Lets see how it turns out then!

Ok, I will bite and respond

[blahbooboo]

1) Unique -- Uh, how about the user interface? One can be nit-picky about anything not being "unique." For example, there is nothing unique or original between a Ford and a Mercedes vehicle, I mean they both have wheels, seats, and use gas right? (sarcasm in case you miss it).

2) Battery -- Well, your usage is different. I have never ever purchased a second battery for a cell phone in all the years I have owned a cell phone. Your experience obviously is different. Oh, you do realize you can buy a replacement battery from Apple right?

3) Palm OS does all the same things -- Are you kidding me? That OS is CRAP, wait that would give crap a bad name it's so shitty. If people wanted to use something designed in 1995 have fun. You have got to be kidding trying to compare Palm OS to any of the modern cell OS systems.

Oh, and I don't own an iPhone. Your comments just were too ridiculous to ignore.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[phoomp]

Battery: I don't have an iPhone, but I have an iPod Touch which I have to charge up every 2 days. If I was also using it as a phone, I would probably have to charge it every day and risk having a dead battery at the end of the day before I get to a charger.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[Anonymous Coward]

Fanboy alert! Fanboy alert!

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[CastrTroy]

I'm with you on PalmOS. I looked into getting a LifeDrive when they came out. Seemed like really interesting hardware. However from everything I hear, the OSis complete crap. Crashes all the time, completely unstable. On the other hand, PalmOS has a really rich library of apps, and it's completely open to anyone. That's one big advantage over the iPhone. I guess we couldn't get a phone with everything.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[mdwh2]

1: Like every person who tries to explain how the Iphone is better, you have completely failed to explain why, instead you just throw around vague clues like "the user interface", and then make an appeal to a false comparison: "Mercedes are better than Ford even though I can't explain why; I can't explain why the Iphone is better than other phones, therefore it is". That's a logical fallacy. The same argument could be made of any phone.

So it's something to do with the UI - well what? Obviously it fails at basic UI functionality such as copy/paste, so there must be something it does wonderfully better to make up, right? Just tell us what it is, please...

3: Well, I don't know about Palm OS, but there's many modern phones other than Palm and the Iphone.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking fanbois - they are sure the biggest negative side of apple and iphone.

Whenever I try to think something positive about jesus phone, I am trying hard to overlook its sucky points - like it being an Apple, it being an AT&T, that its closed system and I can't do fuck about it, that it does not have a real keyboard, that i can't do fucking copy-paste, no tethering allowed. And then some fanboy comes along masturbating about iphone and apple and that's it.

Now let's see how many apple fanbois have got mod points.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[lupis42]

The elements of the UI which are 'Unique' are pretty small and limited. After all copy/paste is fairly common, intuitive finger based interfaces can be found on any of the HTC touch phones, and a full featured mobile browser can be had from Opera quite easily. Not saying the interface isn't well put together, but it's at best unique in its approach to functionality, and that makes it no more or less unique than Vista, or Windows Mobile, or any other OS.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[bonhomme_de_neige]

So it's something to do with the UI - well what? Obviously it fails at basic UI functionality such as copy/paste, so there must be something it does wonderfully better to make up, right? Just tell us what it is, please...

The multitouch screen and the way it's used for zoom/pan is the only thing that makes the browser useable on such a small screen (relative to other handheld devices, maybe the screen is not so small, but it is compared to any real screen that you'd be used to browsing on).

I had an SE M600i that had a functional browser, but pages were either too tiny to read or too zoomed in to see where the text you want is. Changing the zoom level required going though a menu. While it was no doubt _possible_ to get the info you wanted, in terms of ease of use if you could easily call a friend who you knew was at a computer and ask them to look it up, you'd do that instead.

The ease of panning and changing zoom levels on the iPhone, although it seems like a trite toy, is actually the only thing that makes the browsing useable - in fact, it's quite nice to use (of course, no handheld device can ever compare to a full size screen in this regard, but this is as close as it gets). Add to this the fact that Safari on the iPhone renders almost any page well, whereas say Opera Mini on Symbian is quite easy to trip up. For example, the Citibank login screen has some Javascript (for a rubbish on-screen keyboard you have to use) that makes it impossible to log in from the SE, but possible on the iPhone.

I won't lie to you, the lack of copy/paste is quite annoying. The M600i had copy/paste and I did use it a lot. Also I still can't type quite as fast on the iPhone touch screen as I could on the M600i QWERTY keyboard (but close). But it's not a deal breaker - I'll take the lack of copy paste in exchange for a useable browser. It definitely has shortcomings. But hey, you asked what it was that was better so now you know...

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[steve_bryan]

In case you missed my comment above I'll just repeat exactly what is different in the Apple UI: MULTITOUCH. This is not just a slight variation on the common mouse API's. There is a fundamental evolution of the class library for product development.

Anyone who wants to can download the SDK from Apple if you are curious about the differences at the technical level. It will entail much more than just the iPhone but that is where it is first appearing.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[Miseph]

Oh! Oh! Can I play?

"1) Unique -- Uh, how about the user interface? One can be nit-picky about anything not being "unique." For example, there is nothing unique or original between a Ford and a Mercedes vehicle, I mean they both have wheels, seats, and use gas right? (sarcasm in case you miss it)."

Having driven cars made by both Ford and Mercedes, I assure you that their controls are essentially the same. The Mercedes' might look a little nicer, and it might have a few minor bells and whistles, but it would take an insanely poor driver to feel lost in a Ford having only driven Mercedes. in fact, I'd argue that almost all that separates them is what's under the hood and how much money was spent to make it pretty. The point is, there's nothing nit-picky about saying that the iPhone's UI is not functionally unique, you're just pretending it is because otherwise the iPhone is overpriced crap (see where this is going yet?).

"2) Battery -- Well, your usage is different. I have never ever purchased a second battery for a cell phone in all the years I have owned a cell phone. Your experience obviously is different. Oh, you do realize you can buy a replacement battery from Apple right?"

I've from all sorts of sources that the iPhone's battery is shit, My room mate loves his, but even he complains that the battery dies far too quickly. as for ordering a new battery... I've handled a couple, and I have no idea how or where one would get access to the battery. what good is ordering a battery from Apple if you still need to pay them to install it, and possibly lose access to it for a few weeks as well?

"3) Palm OS does all the same things -- Are you kidding me? That OS is CRAP, wait that would give crap a bad name it's so shitty. If people wanted to use something designed in 1995 have fun. You have got to be kidding trying to compare Palm OS to any of the modern cell OS systems."

Did I fall asleep and Palm stopped being an active company? Have they really not changed their software since '95? i'll admit that i haven't touched anything Palm in a while, but if what I remember was made 13 years ago, I'm actually quite impressed... i didn't realize some of that stuff was possible on ANYTHING in '95.

"Oh, and I don't own an iPhone. Your comments just were too ridiculous to ignore."

Not really, he's just saying that the only thing special about the iPhone is, well, the "i"... which is pretty much true.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[AySz88]

Oh, you do realize you can buy a replacement battery from Apple right?

Ordering a battery from Apple means nothing. Oh yeah, you need to actually crack open the iPhone to get at the battery - it's not exactly friendly towards user-replacement, with "green opener tools" required and what-not. Want to sit through this 15-minute how-to video (the first how-to hit on a Google for "iPhone battery replacement") for details? I'm sure this situation will end up a cash cow once batteries start failing (either money via their replacement program or through people saying "screw it, I'll just buy the newest generation iPhone").

how about the user interface

Oh, you've done it now. *rant on* I've used my mother's iPhone, and to me, the UI feels like a bad knockoff of Vanilla Sky's fictional UI. My mother struggles with text input. Reading is strenuous too. Why can't you zoom into text? Where is cut/copy and paste? (since you don't have an iPhone, you should realize that they don't have cut/copy/paste at all) I can see how the gestures for text selection and zoom could conflict, but at least have one of the two? I really noticed that there were far too many silly sliders for binary on-off values instead of simpler toggles (worried about accidental presses? perhaps have vibration with a slow highlight-flip-dehighlight animation). I also think the UI isn't very consistent or intuitive, like: Why are settings hidden under tiny little "i" circles, which almost look like a (c), and when "i" usually means "info" or "about" and not "settings"? Why can't I get any details about the battery's capacity by pressing the little battery icon? *rant off*

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[Surur]

Thats a joke. Multi-touch gave you zooming and the ability to TRY and replace real buttons in game play.

In return is removed your ability to select text and cut and paste. Thats a joke.

There are many other ways of implementing zooming. An on screen slider would be one simple example, another would be the scroll wheel on the HTC Diamond for example.

Re:Ok, I will bite and respond

[steve_bryan]

No, the joke is that the next paradigm of user interface is introduced and you don't have a clue. There were also people who reacted to the mouse and GUI's in 1984 saying that people would never give up the power and flexibility of the command line interface for this clumsy, intelligence-demeaning fad that Apple was pathetically trying to foist on the public.

When multitouch is firmly established as the dominant UI technique several years from now (hint: it isn't just for zooming pictures, that's why I referred to the class library and API's, not just a particular demo), try to recall how completely you missed the point.

Also what's right with DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

They're also demonstrating what's right with DRM. If Apple didn't have this control, they wouldn't have an operating system, a business which funded development of the phone, or a network to run it on.

Short of nationalizing telecom infrastructure, audio and video formats, CMOS, and anything else that more than one entity might want to touch, we need ways to satisfy all parties. DRM - in essence, feature-based licensing - is one of those ways.

So, yeah, it's easy to shout "DRM sux" from a bubble. It's harder to find an alternative that still brings all parties to the table.

MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple certainly are turning the mobile phone marketplace on its head. They are pulling stunts that no other manufacture would DREAM of."

MOD PARENT UP!

The big deal

[KingSkippus]

Okay, I'll bite. Funny thing is, I don't even have an iPhone, but I'm pretty familiar with another of Apple's products. I have a video iPod, and I absolutely love it.

It has little to do with it being an Apple product. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the company, precisely because it tries to be all glitzy. But just as frankly, my iPod is head and shoulders above any other mp3 player I've ever used. Sure, it's pretty, but it also has a very nice display. I find that navigating using the touch wheel is much easier than the clunky buttons on most other players. Getting music and videos is stupidly simple. Although I'm technically proficient and can rip CDs and DVDs, jump through hoops encoding and transferring stuff, I appreciate the fact that with my iPod, I don't have to. I hate the DRM that Apple imposes on content, but it works well enough for me, and when I need to get past it, hey, I can still rip CDs and DVDs and jump through hoops encoding and transferring stuff.

You say, "I want it to work the way I want it to work and use it the way I want to use it." Well, you've pretty much stumbled onto why there are so many Apple devotees. Sure, there are some fanboys, but for most of them, Apple's products just work. It's that simple. They don't have to rip and encode and transfer and configure and read manuals and learn rocket science.

The iPhone undoubtedly has some areas where it falls short. I've used an iPhone, and I'd love to have one, but the game-breaker for me is that I'd rather shove bamboo shoots under my fingernails than to subscribe to AT&T's service, and although I probably could, I just don't have the motivation to hack it. (Better things to do with my time.) I really don't see the battery as an issue. Honestly, in about 15 years of having various cell phones, I've never once had to replace a battery. I always end up getting a new one before my battery stops holding a charge. Is it a consideration? Sure, I suppose, but stacked up against other things, it's not a major one.

Apple isn't perfect. I don't know of many people who think it is. And yes, they have a reputation for being excessively stylish. But that doesn't change that their products are very, very good. You want people not to get caught up in the glamour and not to overrate their products; I'd ask you to do the same and not underrate them, either.

Re:The big deal

[kbg]

There is nothing remarkable about the iPod, there are many better alternatives like Creative players which don't have any DRM, can play Divx and XDvix and have many more options. The iPod is basically overhyped and locks you into propriatory crap.

Re:The big deal

[Tim C]

My experience is pretty much the opposite of yours when it comes to the iPod. I used to have an iRiver H120, which unfortunately died earlier this year. I replaced it with a second-hand iPod mini, and quite frankly it sucks in comparison. The wheel sometimes doesn't respond well, there's no remote (let alone the LCD remote that came with the iRiver), to put music on it I have to use iTunes, getting music off it is tricky - the list goes on.

To be honest, I think it's the iTunes requirement that I have the biggest issue with, the iRiver just exposed itself as a mass storage device, no special software required. But then I dislike iTunes and its habit of silently installing extra software alongside itself anyway...

They don't have to rip and encode and transfer and configure and read manuals and learn rocket science.

That's cute, but both iTunes and Windows Media Player (and doubtless others) will rip and encode a CD more or less automatically. Transferring to my iRiver was literally just drag 'n' drop - exactly the same as doing it in iTunes, but with an extra button or two to click. I appreciate the ease of purchasing from iTMS too, but while it's easier it hardly makes ripping your own look like rocket science.

Re:The big deal

[Guido von Guido]

There is nothing remarkable about the iPod, there are many better alternatives like Creative players which don't have any DRM, can play Divx and XDvix and have many more options. The iPod is basically overhyped and locks you into propriatory crap.

If the iPod "locks you into propriatory crap," home come my iPod is full of non-proprietary, non-DRM mp3s that I either bought legally or burned from my own CD-ROMs? Overhyped I'll buy, but I'm not locked into anything.

Re:The big deal

[xaoslaad]

I have a 30GB 5th Gen iPod my wife bought me for Christmas a year and a half ago. Among the simple to navigate interface, etc. the 12 hours and 30 minutes playtime (give or take 15 minutes) is outstanding.

I have just started road tripping between MA and VA because I was stationed in VA, recently got out and picked up a job in MA. My wife is still stationed in VA, so I've already had some good experience with iPod battery life. I don't monkey around with videos or constantly shift around from one band to another, etc., etc.; just select a band and play it out, then go for the next one. My first trip was 13 hours non-stop except for one stop for gas, and I was no more than 45 minutes without my iPod at the end, and I never stopped playing until the batteries died.

My second trip I hit a lot less traffic, and I stopped a bit in Jersey where I had it paused, but 12 hours later when I was in VA it was still playing.

I understand that the batteries are not altogether easy to replace, however even after 19 months now if they are going that strong I can NOT complain.

I bought both my wife and I iPhones just a week or two ago; my wife is an ardent apple hater (I am not; I have a Macbook Pro, iPod, iPhone, and love them all) and even she loves the iPhone beyond words. The interface is simple and easy to navigate, there are some nice free apps (More Cowbell and Dicebag are my dorkiest favorites) and the phone does about everything you could want a computer in your pocket to do.

Yes, you can't tether; I knew that before I bought it; And I'm not terribly interested in jail breaking it just to tether... I mean why would I? So I can browse the web and check my email? Wait... I can already do that...

I play WoW as much as the next person (a way lot more too) but quite frankly do you want every WoW playing dork to be choking out AT&T's 3g access playing WoW when all you want to do is check your email? I can tell you with my old Samsung T309 with it's t-zones t-mobile access there were just a few times I NEEDED to check my email where it didn't work, and I can honestly say it was annoying as hell. I'd rather not have tethering available if they can in turn promise reliable service when I do need it.

And honestly I do really think that if you could tether iPhones with an unlimited data plan this would happen. Why have internet access at home if you can just tether your phone? Cancel Cox and go AT&T/iPhone. I don't AT&T can support that much bandwidth right now. Maybe in the future, but I don't think today is that day...

Re:The big deal

[dafing]

Ill just point out , if you want an unlocked iPhone its really not that hard, I bought an original one here in New Zealand months before the 3G one was sold legally here, you couldnt get them before the 3G iPhone, I bought it from a company here www.mob.co.nz who had used a software tool on it (ZiPhone?) and yeah, it just works. I updated my one to 2.0 OS with Pwnage, I hate that it changed the Apple logo on boot to a damn pinapple but am too scared to run the tool in expert mode to take the custom boot images off. To use the latest Pwnage tool, although it will give you a stupid boot logo, its just download 2.0 in iTunes, DONT INSTALL IT, download 2 files (boot loader things), and the Pwnage tool will put them all together. You will then have an iPhone that works with all the new features and yet can be used on any network worldwide!

I hope you decide to look into it if you do want an iPhone.

Re:The big deal

[jmcvetta]

Imho, the only thing that makes the iPod better than competing music players is the (patented) circular touchpad. I personally find it intuitive and pleasant to use; apparently many other folks do, too.

That said, I haven't touched my Nano since I bought an SD card for my Blackberry Pearl. The berry's music player interface is not quite as "fun", but is equally quick & efficient. The reasons I now use the Pearl to the exclusion of the iPod are as follows, in descending order of importance:
1. One less device to carry
2. It's a lot easier to add music. No iTunes (or not-quite-adequate Linux substitute) needed.
3. The ability to type song names on a keyboard makes it quicker/easier to find songs.

Every other phone...

[Anonymous Coward]

..WAIT, you can't use tethering on default on iPhone? I thought that was like one of the DEFAULT features on every other fucking phone.

I guess iPhone isn't like every other phone, I'll keep using my Nokia E90, and can recommend it to everyone.

What is wrong with tethering?

[MobyDisk]

Why is it against the terms of use of the iPhone?

Re:What is wrong with tethering?

[victim]

Desktop/laptop applications are great wallowing bandwith users compared to phone applications. You don't realize it because you have plenty of bandwidth.

Cellular devices are sharing extremely limited bandwidth in each cell among all users. All the crazy background traffic from tethered computers drags down everyone's performance.

To belabor the point... my laptop regularly downloads dozens of RSS feeds without my input, when email arrives with stupid 19M powerpoint attachment, my email client downloads it so it will be there if I try to open it, and it could at any moment download a 150M software upgrade from my OS vendor.... My iPhone which I use a lot, has received 478M of data, in 12 months. (or maybe 9, I think I may have reset it in September) It wouldn't surprise me if my laptop consumes 100 times the bandwidth of my iPhone.

Re:What is wrong with tethering?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the bandwidth is severely limited in the cell, the cell is broken.

Re:What is wrong with tethering?

[victim]

3G has 2.4Mbits/sec for each sector shared among everyone in the sectore. How would you like having 40 active users share your 3mbps DSL line?

So whining!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ - so much fuss over nothing.

Use wireless morons! Why on earth would you want to use a cell phone as a modem? Where do you think you are? You have an iPhone in your hand which for all intents and purposes is a computer and you want to use it as a modem for another computer?

Go away!

Re:So whining!

[IndustrialComplex]

Where do I think I am? In general I'm on the road or at military bases and/or ranges. I use my work phone for work, and my iphone for myself. It's worked pretty well for me so far. Yet even though I try to stick to specific hotels, I never know if they will have wireless that is worth anything, and very often it wouldn't support a VPN with any stability. So I rely on my phones capability to tether to my laptops to do the things I would like to do. I use my iPhone a lot, and I use my computer a lot. The combined use of both generally amounts to approximately 1-2 gigs per month when I am on the road. (I use a lot more, but that's what my home networks are for). Attempting to use a hotel's wireless connection is quite often more frustrating than just going down to the local bar and seeing if I can spot anyone I know to hang out with. The sad thing is, I generally get better service from Dunkin Donuts than I do from the local hotel. (businessmen with infected computers downloading porn /acting as zombies maybe?)

What you talkin' about willis?

[goombah99]

I don't get it.
Buy $600 phone.
Pay $60-90/month to use it.
And you can't tether.

That's what I'd be the most interested in anyways. WOW on the go would be fun.

Well duh and i'd like a pony too. You are paying for the service you are getting not the one you wish you were getting. Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.

Why not?

What I use my Internet connection for is none of my Internet provider's fucking business, and if you believe otherwise then you're just a tool.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[centuren]

I don't get it.
Buy $600 phone.
Pay $60-90/month to use it.
And you can't tether.

That's what I'd be the most interested in anyways. WOW on the go would be fun.

Well duh and i'd like a pony too. You are paying for the service you are getting not the one you wish you were getting. Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.

I think the point here is that you are OVER paying for the product you are getting, when tethering is, as far as I and every techie smart phone user I know goes, one of the main points of getting a smart phone. The whole point of spending such a high monthly service plan is the data transfer.

3G speeds don't seem fast enough to tempt users away from using old-fashioned internet when it's available (WoW with more than 120ms lag wouldn't be THAT much fun). I don't really see iPhone renting being popular in coffee shops when up against the common free WiFi.

Isn't this just another example of Apple innovating on a product to improve it's user experience and make it exciting, but then giving in on something that just restricts us the consumer?

iPhone: AT&T => no tethering
iTunes: RIAA => DRM

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[NormalVisual]

WoW with more than 120ms lag wouldn't be THAT much fun

It depends. Between about 200 and 900 ms, the lag is annoying as hell, but once it gets above that, it's kind of entertaining since what will happen is largely unpredictable. Firefights in Alterac Valley when everyone is severely lagged are kind of like slapstick comedy. Players fall down and die for no apparent reason at all. :-)

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[goombah99]

Why do you overpay? or are you simply saying you wish you could get all the things the iPhone offers for less? Either way, your argument that follows makes no sense given you don't have to overpay.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[mindstrm]

The service you purchased on your phone contract says otherwise, and that's the problem.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Austerity Empowers]

Contracts are made to be violated by the masses, with guns if necessary.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[DECS]

In both your examples, your evil companies have invested shit-tons of money into creating the economic pool you want to swim in. You are surprised that they want to impose rules to earn profits on their investment?

Without AT&T, you wouldn't have AT&T's phone service, and without AT&T's investment in the iPhone, you probably wouldn't have $199 access to an OS X-based smartphone that costs $700.

Without the RIAA, you wouldn't have artists getting million dollar contract advances to create albums, nor any rock and roll lifestyle to inspire artists to make music. That's a bad thing if all you like is folk hippie music, but most people like commercial lala popular music, hence the name Pop.

I'm not saying that AT&T and the RIAA aren't greedy assholes, I'm only saying that your outrage is rather naive and silly. "Just restricts the consumer"? You do realize that the purpose of companies is to make profits, right? They don't exist to titillate you at affordable prices.

Warning: Google Maps Walking directions are in Beta

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[ceoyoyo]

What, you want Apple to fight your fight for you? This is just another example of a telecom company wanting to call something "unlimited" when they really have no intention of making it in any way unlimited. Insist on fair advertising and pricing.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[trytoguess]

Violence is the tool of the idiot who didn't take his/her time to read the contract, or ask a rep/the internet if that's too much work.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[alex4u2nv]

Don't forget that the people also spend money, and in the economic pool, outweigh the amount invested by those big companies. And as such, as the masses voice their naive and silly opinions, they have the right to do it. At the end of the day, these large companies don't have anything without the end users who play the biggest role in the economic marketplace.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[DavidinAla]

Government force should be met with force if necessary. But contracts entered into voluntarily are the basis of civilization. You're advocating a return to the day when contracts couldn't be enforced, which would destroy the availability of the very services you hope to steal. Your position is not only irrational and immoral, but short-sighted.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[witherstaff]

actually if you provide the 'last mile' in the USA, YOU are responsible for CALEA. Look it up, it's a damn scary law. If the first hop to the Internet is through you, it falls on your shoulders. This includes neighborhood wifi projects, the local coffee shop that offers free wifi, etc. Forget if it's infeasible and expensive, forget that some wifi gear is impossible to do what they ask (Meraki, I'm looking at you), it's the law and you're responsibility. Not the ISP you're connecting to, but YOU. What's this mean?

• YOU must notify the feds you are providing the last mile
• YOU must be able to real time duplicate traffic and send it in a wacky format to them if they request.
• If they request this and you can't, it's a 10,000 a day fine.
• You can't notify anyone you've gotten a CALEA request. It's a secret
• If requests, you CAN NOT quit doing it, as they've ordered you to duplicate the traffic.

Big Brother exists and is able to tap everyone's intenet at the snap of a finger.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[QuoteMstr]

You can't notify anyone you've gotten a CALEA request. It's a secret

We've gone from one King George to another. Escaping laws like this is the reason this country was founded!

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[DECS]

Yes, the amount they "outweigh" initial investments is called "profits."

However, the masses aren't complaining, just a few people here on Slashdot who think that not wanting to pay for things is an enlightened political ideology.

I'm all for intellectual socialism, where smart people take over and run things and prevent outrageous profit-taking by the ultra rich, but this is America. I find it hard to empathize with the fat slobs who sit around and passively complain about how much they are being charged to afford their affluent slob lifestyles rather than taking any actual action to stop the trend toward fascism, in most cases because they are actually benefiting from corporate profiteering and don't want to upset the trough that feeds them the slop they want to be cheaper.

For the record, I hate AT&T nearly as much as Verizon and Sprint, and I think the RIAA is largely ridiculous in every way. The only reason I can stand Apple is that it constantly titillates my passive consumption of technology in a uniquely entertaining way. I also am angry about the US' slide into complacent servitude to corporatism, but I blame my inaction on the ineffectual efforts of anyone else to do anything to really change things, and I lack the energy to fix everything myself.

So I'm not being elitist, I'm just tired of hearing ideological complaint dressed up as a significant opinion. One might as well put a "save the planet" bumper sticker on one's SUV. At least those people pay for gas; the gimme-gimme-free crowd wants to just steal their pop music and mobile Internet access, something that's hard to get behind as a political expression of "free speech."

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Kagura]

You missed superscript 110, which states clearly that neither AT&T nor its shareholders, subsidiaries, or partners, are to be held responsible in the event of mass armed uprisings.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

Not at all, just the day where twenty-page "contracts" didn't come sealed in a box that you buy. If anyone actually approached consumers with a contract long enough to be read in the venue they marketed their product (ie, two-paragraph contract for something meant to be purchased in a retail-ish setting like a cell-phone.) people wouldn't consider them outrageous.

But no, people have the idea that anything they write down on paper is going to be binding just because they hand it to you, with no consideration for letting you read it in its entirety, or before the sale.

Sorry, but that's not behavior I respect. I could "not respect" it by quietly going home and being upset, or I could usefully not respect it by treating it as I would treat a phone I bought from someone I did respect. I follow common-sense guidelines, or rules for the benefit of everyone, but not rules for their sole benefit.

For instance, ISP rules about no servers. Yeah, uh huh. What's a server? Any protocol that happens to answer a port, regardless of the majority of the dataflow. And they forbid servers, not bandwidth hogging. So should I honestly follow along and not run SSH despite it not really being the problem and max-out my downloads on legit Linux ISOs, or should I try to play by the spirit of cooperation and not do anything (regardless of the rules) that would destroy the service for my neighbors such as using all the bandwidth?

If I lived by the rules of "no servers" anything else would be fine. Instead if I examine the situation and deal fairly with those involved, no method of harm is "okay" just because it wasn't mentioned.

So, in other words, you're a schmuck if you follow an abusive contract. Many people who enter offer contracts do so abusively and there's no reason to pander to that and not get a phone, or such. Just follow the reasonable rules, discard the rest. Until courts catch up with the idea that there are some things you can't contract for (not illegal, just unrelated to the apparent deal - misleading) people just need to act this way.

It was the software companies all individually including the EULAs in the box than convinced people shrink-wrap licenses are binding. Now we just need everyone individually ignoring provisions of contracts they didn't get a chance to negotiate to set the assumption that such contracts aren't binding.

The world would be a far better place if people acted based on the harm their actions would cause, NOT based on the rules that would be violated.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

This is why we need open WIFI, for plausible deniability. Might be illegal, but it's a lot less "illegal" than the routers that do log and just happens to show something they find really offensive - like if you pinged Cuba or something.

With one or two exceptions, the quickest way for a government employee to deserve death is to demand you keep their actions secret. We all just need a reason to install pools or lye in our basements...

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[thedbp]

All the terms and conditions and warranty info are available on the websites for perusal before any type of purchase.

Douche.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[bluemonq]

Or you could be aware that they're going to hand you a twenty page contract and set aside enough time to read it when you go to the shop and not just spend the majority of the time fiddling around with the phones they have on display.

I don't see how them saying "you are not allowed to share the data access that you receive on this phone with another device unless you pay us extra" is unrelated to the issue at hand. They're selling you services to use on the cellphone.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

I'm aware that there's a twenty page contract, but I'm also aware as a programmer that few people, including programmers, could take a twenty page document full of conditions and exceptions and properly parse it, being sure of not making any mistakes and of catching all restrictions. Especially standing in a store, without a day or two to make notes.

It simply is not reasonable to present people with a contract like that for things that don't warrant getting a lawyer. Thinking these contracts should be binding is like expecting you to hire a lawyer and do battle with Sony corp over your defective Walkman, as opposed to going to small-claims court where the rules are different and engaging them in a more level way.

We might as well practice law in Latin for all the good it does to hand a densely worded and intentionally confusing document, especially at a time that contracts usually aren't required - what looks to be a simple purchase at retail.

So no, even if I believed that these contracts would stand up to the type of challenge I would wage if I had the time/money, I still would not follow them because they are abusive.

As for Apple's ability to control what I do with my data, I do not believe they have the right to tell me I cannot tunnel games over an SSH connection to my phone, or web pages, or a packet whose ultimate destination might be someone else. They provide bandwidth, I use it. They can set limits on amounts, but not on the purpose of the data transmission. (Which would be like saying I can only use the iPhone for certain calls.)

Obviously nobody listens to a rule that says you can't take calls for your friends on your phone - they simply pay the airtime and use the device. Similarly, nobody would accept a rule saying you can call only affiliated pizza places. A limit on who you can forward data to is just a ridiculous.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

Yeah, and people should honestly be expected to hear about, go find, read, and understand twenty pages of densely worded legalese, just to BUY a cellphone that's sold at retail, in a fashion that usually implies there won't be contracts.

Douche.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[cgenman]

There is a fine line between voluntarily entering into a contract with a 3rd party on equal negotiation footing and agreeing to ridiculous contractual options because everyone who offers this service requires it. For example, air travel is theoretically optional, but a basic necessity of modern living. You can then either opt out of modern living, or you can wear the contractually-obliged shock collar in order to fly.

Certain bits of modern contracts are quite frankly immortal, and should not be enforced by the government. As a further example, non-competes can be a way of ensuring that your employees don't simply run to another company with your hard-earned knowledge. But they're also a way of ensuring that certain employees can never work in their field again, and cannot realistically get another job afterwards. This can be held over the employee to prevent them from leaving due to underpay, abuse, or failure to live up to bonus or other compensatory promises. And they're always entered into while the employee is hungry.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Thing 1]

It was the software companies all individually including the EULAs in the box than convinced people shrink-wrap licenses are binding. Now we just need everyone individually ignoring provisions of contracts they didn't get a chance to negotiate to set the assumption that such contracts aren't binding.

I should add to this that there are several pre-paid legal plans, with which you can sue these fuckers.

So, you don't need a several-thousand-dollar retainer in order to obtain legal satisfaction; $27/mo from PPL, or $18/mo from ARAG (through your employer, not sure how much they charge otherwise), and you have the ability to fight back without hurting your bank account.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Bert64]

What's amusing is that windows systems have several "servers" running by default (135, 139, 445 etc), some of which are difficult to turn off... They could use this as an excuse to disconnect most users.
Then there's routers which open something like telnet or http so you can manage them.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Bert64]

Yes, i'l be sure to read the terms and conditions on the website using my psychic powers next time i'm trying to sign up for a service providing internet connectivity...

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[R3d M3rcury]

Agreed. However, the way to communicate your complaints is to not buy their products or services. Not to whine about it on Slashdot.

Because, at the end of the day, these large companies don't have anything without the end users. And if they have no end users, they may consider changing their prices and policies.

If you buy an iPhone knowing that it cannot be tethered and then whine because it cannot be tethered, you bought the wrong product. Because I must use a car analogy, it's like buying a two-seater sports car and then complaining that there is no way for three people to sit in the car. If having a third seat was so important, you should have bought a car that seats three.

If you're going to be paying $199 plus $70 a month for two years--say, $1900 total--it may be worthwhile to make sure that the device does what you want it to do. Not blame Apple and AT&T for your poor decision.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[DavidinAla]

I didn't address what you're saying, so it's not necessarily relevant to my point. The post I was replying to made a broad statement about contracts in general, not to certain potentially untenable provisions in contracts. It's a fool's game to try to argue (especially on here) which contract terms are reasonable and which are not, so I won't do that. But when somebody is foolish enough to broadly advocate that "the masses" violate contracts, well, that's so stupid that it's worth a brief rebuttal.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[nurb432]

That is no longer true. They do care what you are doing, and who you are doing with, and how much you did it. You contract will stipulate rather clearly what you can and cant do.

And if they don't like it, they throttle/delete/report you.

This isn't the 90's anymore bucko.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Oh yeah? Well I believe that 2+2=5, and if you believe otherwise, then you're a whiny bitch. Behold my powers of rhetoric!

Seriously though, the whole business strategy as we know it is not geared towards sharing connections. There's nothing wrong with a business that doesn't require you to sign away your right to share your connection, but it will invariably cost more as people actually take them up on the offer, and their raw sales go down. As it stands, people actually sharing their connections when they're not supposed to just ends up with all the paying customers paying slightly more to hedge losses.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[amRadioHed]

So does that mean you aren't allowed to download a file on your iPhone that you intend to move to another device to use? It sounds like a stupid and vague restriction to me.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[amRadioHed]

When somebody is foolish enough to broadly advocate that "the masses" understand 20 page contracts, well, that's pretty stupid too.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Anonymous Coward]

The cell carriers are so far behind the times, it's a wonder they stay in business. When they advertise a $80 phone so you can put mp3's on your car stereo? It's downright laughable.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[dlanod]

WoW with more than 120ms lag wouldn't be THAT much fun

Speaking as an Australian playing on an "Oceanic" server, any time we have less than 400ms lag it's a miracle. However WoW does handle the latency quite well, especially compared to what you'd have to put up with in FPSs, etc.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[DavidinAla]

Would you kindly point out where I said that? And when you find that I didn't say what you're alleging, will you please apologize?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up faggot cunt

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[smellotron]

air travel is ... a basic necessity of modern living

No it isn't.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[PortHaven]

No, AT&T is quite good at not providing stuff to read until after you sign.

Besides, who gives a crap about a contract. The U.S. law system is only for big powers.

And there is a significant difference between what is legal and what is moral. Right now, a lot of immoral stuff is legal. And a lot of moral stuff is illegal. Just look at how RIAA treats artists and consumers.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[sweet_petunias_full_]

"...contracts entered into voluntarily are the basis of civilization..."

Well, that and laws, although you could think of a law as simply a contract between all of the citizens with each other, to which all of them are bound, or at least should be bound if things are to remain civilized.

Not that some of these contract holders are held to the same standard of the law as their customers. Some have obtained immunity for certain illegal actions - I doubt most people can get that though we are all supposed to be equal under the law. To riddle the concept of the law even more, they even obtained it retroactively for past illegal actions. It's like you were fined for drinking alcohol during Prohibition and then, after Prohibition was repealed, it's like getting restitution for your fine. Basically, magic like this is not going to happen for you, it's clear our representatives are being especially helpful to some but not others.

You're left wondering if these representatives who are supposed to represent equality and "one man one vote," understand the concept of laws and contracts as willing agreements.

We seem less and less well grounded in a stable foundation for civilized conduct, to the point that I wouldn't be surprised if people stop taking laws or contracts too seriously... I mean, if our role-model representatives don't, they why should we? Aren't we immune too?

"I absolve you. I absolve you..."

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.

Why not?

What I use my Internet connection for is none of my Internet provider's fucking business, and if you believe otherwise then you're just a tool.

Hey and while you're at it go to the local all you can eat buffet and sell off leftover rights to a dozen other people. Just keep going up and filling their plates for them. What's the harm in that? Their expectation is for a single user. Selling off their bandwidth isn't allowed and common sense should explain why. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why companies don't want you to sell off access to unlimited use. Gee why not just have one phone for the whole country and everyone can share the service? Believe it or not they have expenses too.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[TheoMurpse]

Truly a good solution: bloodshed because you don't like your contract. Have you been President before?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[TheoMurpse]

air travel is theoretically optional, but a basic necessity of modern living

Wow, are you really that out of touch? Were it not for my mom's trip to Louisiana with my dad on his business trip, she would have, as of now, never ever flown on an airplane in *cough*fiftysomething*cough* years.

As it stands, I've only flown on an airplane to Japan for study abroad, and one can hardly suggest that is a common activity amongst Americans.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Opportunist]

Mr. Lawyer, meet Mr. Bullet. You can't talk a gun out of hitting you.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

I am somewhat skeptical about paying some small sum of money and getting anyone to describe the legal issues involved, let alone go to court in a useful fashion.

I just looked up pre-paid legal. It's an MLM and that's a pretty conclusive sign of crap. Further, they've got a ton of restrictions on what they'll look at, offer "discounts" from insanely high rates once you go over your number of free issues.

Some people went so far as to suggest that you (generic internet person who mentions pre-paid legal) might be involved, and perhaps criminally liable for pushing an MLM if you are involved in it.

But as they say, sometimes a lawyer's name on a letter can cause the other party to back off. If you had a harassing landlord it might be worth $50 for questionable legal advice if it ended up solving the problem anyways.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[KDR_11k]

Internet access is not a utility, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to have internet access.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[RockDoctor]

Or you could be aware that they're going to hand you a twenty page contract and set aside enough time to read it when you go to the shop and not just spend the majority of the time fiddling around with the phones they have on display.

That'd get you arrested and Tasered (in that order, probably) as the terr'st that you obviously are. Reading anything, rather than taking the word of retail androids, is a Thought Crime. More importantly, it could infect other customers with the meme that "Maybe there's something I should check about this product". It's this second anti-competitive aspect that would get the Taser applied, to stop you from voicing more heretical thoughts such as "I haven't done anything wrong!"

Sheeple, go back to your grass and graze. There's nothing to see here apart from a truck labelled 'Slaughterhouse 5'.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[sjames]

Do they offer a terminal you can use to read them at the point of sale? If not, for someone buying in person they might as well be "prominently displayed" in a locked filing cabinet.

A contract is SUPPOSED to be a meeting of minds executed in good faith. Both parties lay their cards on the table and haggle until they come to an agreement. The written document is meant to fully reflect that agreement. That junk about the microscopic print on the back of page 27 under the staple being binding is just an overused comedic device from the '60s and '70s. So is the "iron clad" contract that forces one party to accept a ruinous transaction because a key piece of information was withheld during negotiation.

I don't have (or want) an iPhone, so I don't know what that buying "experience" is like, but I do know that in many places, they act quite annoyed when you insist on actually reading the contract before signing. Even moreso since they don't provide an appropriate place to actually do that. If you want to know what "deer in the headlights" looks like, strike a paragraph and ask them to initial it! Generally they will after a moment's hesitation. If they are not authorized to do that, it is THEIR duty as representatives of the company to say so.

The whole trend to "conditional sales" of everything and one-sided contracts needs to be stopped now. It is damaging to society and preys on the average person's lack of knowledge of the law.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[sjames]

For some it is if they would rather not make the transition from educated professional to ditch digger.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[sjames]

Let's see, without RIAA and AT&T, someone else would come along and do it.

Without customers, there would be no AT&T and no RIAA at all in any form.

Yes, the purpose of companies is to make money, but that doesn't mean they should make money for nothing at the expense of individual rights.

If you scratch the surface of most restrictive conditions on services, you'll find deceit behind them. If they were really intending to provide X service for Y price (as they claim), they'd be happy that you use as much of X as possible

If they find providing X for Y unprofitable, they should be honest and charge more or offer less. Instead, they make the fraudulent offer and then create all sorts of unjustifiable crazy conditions to constructively provide less than X for Y while avoiding prosecution for false advertising.

Outrage over constructive fraud is perfectly justifiable!

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[sjames]

I'm all for intellectual socialism, where smart people take over and run things and prevent outrageous profit-taking by the ultra rich, but this is America. I find it hard to empathize with the fat slobs who sit around and passively complain about how much they are being charged to afford their affluent slob lifestyles rather than taking any actual action to stop the trend toward fascism, in most cases because they are actually benefiting from corporate profiteering and don't want to upset the trough that feeds them the slop they want to be cheaper.

As opposed to the fat slobs who sit around and complain about fat slobs complaining impotently but offer no suggestions whatsoever what they might do that would be effective?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Thing 1]

OK, for full disclosure: I am a member. I used to sell PPL, but have not for several years. It does seem like an MLM, one reason I no longer sell (that and I found a job). The benefits I have received from the plan have far outweighed the $27/mo I have paid for the past 6 or so years. But then, perhaps I'm an edge case with so much debt (which is what they primarily helped with, and saved me several tens of thousands of dollars by helping negotiate with my creditors, well, not really them, but the collection agencies they contracted with).

There's definitely no criminal liability, even if I was still selling it (show me the law; it's generally on-line). When you say "some people" who are you referring to?

There are 5 "titles" of benefits. I won't go through them all, but the nice part is the fifth one is a 25% discount on the hourly rate for any services that aren't covered by the other four. So, even if your issue isn't covered, you're still saving a quarter of what you otherwise would have paid for the same attorney.

Which isn't to say that you won't find a cheaper attorney, perhaps one who is better. It pays to do your homework, but said homework can be expensive when vetting attorneys. The advice that I have received is far from "questionable" as you stated.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Meski]

IANAL, but don't real contracts have more than just the purchaser signing them? Something like the other party signing too, having it witnessed, and a copy for both parties? Idea might be with one of these 'contracts' to say you want some time to read, sit down with a pen, and strike out paragraphs you don't like. Ever seen the sales types read them after?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

The advice that I have received is far from "questionable" as you stated.

Did you get a second opinion from an unrelated lawyer? Or did it just work, so it must have been right?

a 25% discount on the hourly rate for any services

Yeah, a rate that is supposedly higher than the industry standard. And there appear to be a few lawsuits about the "prepaid" in their name and how everything involves extra fees that sales associates have been proven not to mention.

When you say "some people" who are you referring to?

It seems that nobody says it's any good unless they're selling it and many people say it's outright fraud, you can't cancel if you try and it's nearly a cult to boot.

Use google, there are many criticisms of it.

There's definitely no criminal liability, even if I was still selling it (show me the law; it's generally on-line). When you say "some people" who are you referring to?

Why don't you ask PPL for the law? Test the quality of your PPL team, ask what laws you could run into doing this sort of thing, especially if legal theories of them being an MLM are true, and what you could do to mitigate any risks.

See if you get a detailed answer, or some feel-good speech.

I'm not a lawyer but I'm guessing it'd be related to misrepresentation, or just the general illegal nature of most MLMs.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[ggalvao]

Off-topic on reply to NormalVisual: Brazilians are used to playing with over 300ms and still we've been the first to down Illidan @ Warsong Horde (Blood Faction).

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Thing 1]

Why don't you ask PPL for the law?

I'm sorry, no, you're the one who suggested that talking is illegal. Why don't you back up your assertions?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

I was asking you to test the system because you have an account, I do not.

I didn't say "talking is illegal", I said others suggested that the pushing of PPL by a someone with a vested interest in it could be illegal in light of the MLM nature, etc. Certainly a real lawyer could tell you when this would be illegal ("If you know something is an MLM and you...") as a hypothetical question.

But this is exactly what everyone said would happen. Rather than you actually being interested in hearing a question and trying to answer it you get rude.

Aren't you slightly curious as to what PPL says about the law surrounding themselves? Seems like the ultimate test for bias.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoot the lawyers

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[j_edge]

If anyone actually approached consumers with a contract long enough to be read in the venue they marketed their product...

Why do you think the lines were so long? You could have read (and re-read) the contract in most locations.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[Thing 1]

But this is exactly what everyone said would happen. Rather than you actually being interested in hearing a question and trying to answer it you get rude.

Aren't you slightly curious as to what PPL says about the law surrounding themselves? Seems like the ultimate test for bias.

I apologize if you consider my request rude. "Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary proof" and all that; you're claiming that my speech violated a criminal law, so, yes, your extraordinary claim does call for extraordinary proof, and I'm not going out of my way to find that proof; you can.

No, I'm not at all curious because I have no vested interest. I'm a satisfied customer. Next!

Oh, and I still have yet to hear from you where the "everyone" is. A link, please, if they're on-line. A ... newspaper article, if not?

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[WNight]

Did you try a google search? "pre-paid legal review", etc. You shouldn't have trouble finding the negative comments.

As for my "claim", I think you need remedial reading comprehension class. I did not claim your actions were illegal, I said that some of the other people involved made the broad claim that someone in your position was likely to be committing some sort of crime by knowingly and fraudulently representing a MLM scam.

What part do you want proof of? That people bad-mouth PPL? That some claim PPL supporters are committing crimes by pushing a pyramid scheme? That some speech can be illegal?

As for your lack of interest, all I can say is that you must be a profoundly incurious person. I'm always looking for a way to test things, and one great way to test PPL would be to ask them of their flaws/legal gray areas. If they're honest they'll list a bunch of things, if they aren't honest they'll brush the question off.

If you called them up before getting into business hopefully they'd explain the relevant laws. Perhaps your business involves selling, so they should advise you of the limits of the claims you can legally make, etc. Even if your work is 100% legal, they should still advise you of the correct paperwork to remain that way.

Honestly, I'm curious. If they could answer that question fairly and are honest, then who cares about the MLM nature - just don't be a seller. But I don't want to sign up to check. If you'd be willing to use your month's time, or some of it, to approach them about this I'd love to hear what they say.

Re:What you talkin' about willis?

[fbjon]

Just because the contract exists doesn't mean that it's reasonably written, or even reasonable at all.

AT&T had to ban this

[burris]

AT&T had to ban this to protect the network, the same reason Comcast has to ban BitTorrent. I'm sure all of you understand. It is very important to protect the network from new, predatory applications or we will never have innovation. Just look at how the plain old phone network collapsed and became totally useless after the courts forced the telcos to allow their customers to plug in unapproved phones. Overnight people were plugging in 3, 4, 5 phones, vastly exceeding the phone rental limits. Some were even using newfangled wireless phones that let them consume Precious Network Resources from places the Telcos never planned on, such as the yard or bathroom.

Re:AT&T had to ban this

[maniac/dev/null]

They use similar logic when the water commission posted a takedown notice for my new shop sink. They clearly don't want me to have it, but I'm not going to let THE MAN dictate where and when I can wash my hands!

Re:AT&T had to ban this

[barzok]

Did the sink installation require a permit which you failed to file for?

Re:AT&T had to ban this

[nurb432]

I think its more legit then comcast, as i really do think the 3G network is limited currently.

In comcasts case, its just oversell and poor management.

Re:AT&T had to ban this

[Anonymous Coward]

Might a suggest a completely novel approach to protecting their network. Like not selling bandwidth that they don't have.

The problem is that they sell us "unlimited" bandwidth, but their network can't actually handle us USING it. They've terribly overcommited their network by affectively selling what they don't have. Things like tethering are ways people actually use that bandwidth, so they have to limit it.

I'm sorry, but I feel no sorrow for people making fortunes selling things they don't have, and then discovering they have to actually make good on it.

Obvious troll - name erroneous

[SuperKendall]

Just in case you were serious (ha) you don't need an extra battery, for long trips you can just use any number of external battery packs that are no larger than that second battery you claim to desire.

Just like sharing your books, eh?

[Nick Driver]

Written over ten years ago, but oh so foretelling of things to come

The privacy concern is very serious

[maynard]

It doesn't matter what phone device we're discussing. Those clients of yours who are attorneys have an ethical obligation to protect the privacy of their clients. A distributed and privately controlled solution to internally shared calendaring and business contacts is very much needed.

3G bandwidth is shared, right...?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

Or at least that was my understanding.

So I want O2 (UK) to think very carefully before allowing tethering and opening up the shared resource to every possible application.

Right now I have unlimited data to my iPhone, but that will be no good to me if the network becomes saturated. (And yes, with an unlimited data plan, some users will run BitTorrent over a tethered connection just because they can.)

Apple's Hokey Cokey with the NetShare application? I can't explain that, but you can see where the conflict lies.

Allow the customers to do whatever they want, or protect the current experience for everyone.

Re:3G bandwidth is shared, right...?

[EnglishTim]

But you're already sharing it with those with Windows Mobile (and presumably Symbian) smartphones who can share their internet connections with their computers. Hell, you're sharing it with those who have the O2 USB 3G modem. It's not as if iPhone users have their own special 3G network...

Re:3G bandwidth is shared, right...?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

But you're already sharing it with those with Windows Mobile (and presumably Symbian) smartphones who can share their internet connections with their computers. Hell, you're sharing it with those who have the O2 USB 3G modem. It's not as if iPhone users have their own special 3G network...

The standard O2 'unlimited' web package has a 200MB per month 'fair usage' policy. The iPhone data package is not subject to a 'fair usage' policy and allows unlimited data. This is because all of their iPhone customers complained (and O2 probably realised that it's actually quite hard to use too much data on an iPhone).

So yeah, tether away with your Windows Mobile Device, but you won't be able to do much damage to my online experience with only 200MB to burn. I assume the O2 3G modem packages have higher allowances, but they are still limited.

If an iPhone tethering application is released in the UK, O2 will start enforcing data limits on their iPhone customers. Since I don't have a laptop, you can see why I'm reluctant to join in the demand...?

Re:It's back

[hcmtnbiker]

Yup, it's back already

JoikuSpot - same for Symbian phones

[Terrasque]

http://www.joikuspot.com/ - For Symbian (Nokia) phones. Allows you to use your phone as a modem and share the web using the builtin WLAN, setting it up as an accesspoint.

Now that's awesomeness :)

It will most likely be back

[Shawn Parr]

We have already seen what happens when Apple wants to pull an app. Remember the Aurora Feint thing? That app had some issues with security and privacy, and it not only disappeared from the store, but from iPhones also.

This app may be going on and off the store, but until it disappears from iPhones and a credit shows up on those accounts, it will be back.

This is likely more to do with servers and/or databases syncing up or some such. I had the same thing happen trying to buy Crash Bandicoot Nitro Kart on the iPhone. It would show it, but say it was unavailable. A couple of days later all was fine.

Maybe Exchange is for you

[Shawn Parr]

And Apple appears to be holding up any OTA sync application that might circumvent syncing through their "MobileMe" so-called service. I also can't sync my contacts to a central server or OTA without MobileMe.

This is 100% not true, and I think you know it. While the only consumer way to do this is with MobileMe, and by the way if you want good calendaring sync OTA solutions MobileMe is pretty weak (actually I would say unusable), there is a non-consumer way. Exchange sync works pretty well, although there are some caveats, although a lot less than if you have MobileMe.

Don't have Exchange and don't want it? Well I don't blame you, it certainly has lots of issues also, especially the cost for what you get, but it is a solution for OTA contact and calendar syncing with push mail that works with the iPhone without MobileMe. And if you or your employer is running the server than all of your privacy concerns should be taken care of (if the server is configured properly).

Yeah, I'd like some more options, and maybe some could come in the future. But for the time being MobileMe and Exchange are the price of admission. I'm hoping that once the Push services API is available Google or someone else will make a client/system that ties into IMAP IDLE and CalDAV so I can use my existing Gmail and Gcal setup, which works great with Mail.app and iCal.app, on the iPhone. Only time will tell though.

Re:Maybe Exchange is for you

[maynard]

Thank you for that response. I don't run an Exchange server and never have. I also didn't know that Exchange provided that service. I'll look in to it.

On the CalDav front, we're going to deploy DAViCal on Debian in the interim, so we will be able to share within the group. USB sync to the Mac works OK, and iCal is good enough.

Re:Maybe Exchange is for you

[Shawn Parr]

Well, I can't find the original great article I read about issues with the iPhone and Exchange that covered the caveats I referred to. It was written by a consultant that uses the Mac and iPhone that also admins Exchange systems, so he got pretty in-depth with it. A lot had to do with collaboration things and accepting/declining events, etc.

It looks like someone at Microsoft supposedly started this wiki to track issues also. If you are checking into options you might want to take a look.

Still have it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do people who bought the app during the 2 hour window still have it?

bad moderation

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators, please learn that moderation is not based if the comment subscibes to your world-view but rather if the comment advances the discussion or makes a non-redundant point or rebuttal. The above comment is a good rebuttal and is not flambate. The GP was being childish is his expectations and the parent pointed this out.

For $99 (and you have to own a Mac)

[fabu10u$]

you could turn your iPhone into a developer device and never have to worry about them pulling this from the App Store. The question is, how to publish the source without attracting The Steve's attention?

Re:For $99 (and you have to own a Mac)

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you have the development platform and released the source, what are they going to do about it?

Sooner or later somebody will port it to Installer.app anyway.

Re:For $99 (and you have to own a Mac)

[ceoyoyo]

Bittorrent?

"Why hackers *want* to jailbreak the phone" ..

[Anonymous Coward]

ITYM "Why they already HAVE broken it"

I have an iphone (original).

I use it with a provider other than ATT becuase ATT sucks.
I can put a huge wide variety of software on it.
I can ssh into it over wifi and do whatever I want with it.
I can import plain mp3's to it without using iTunes or any other proprietary software.
If I wanted to, there is a mini USB-power AP that I could get, to connect it to my laptop when there is no Wifi, and I could use the phone to access the net from my laptop, and without even paying $10, or hoping that Apple or AT&T would allow me to.

The reason I have an iPhone is becuase

1. It doesnt suck, like most other phones.
2. I can access email using a client that doesnt suck, like most other phones.
3. Due to the way Apple sold it, I was able to get it without being locked into any contracts. (and I have a month-to-month plan with the provider I do use that costs less than any of AT&T's contract plans cost, yet gives me more, including unlimited data access)

3G Issue

[nurb432]

Well, they banned P2P due to AT&T network limitations, so its only logical they would kill this off too, for the same reason.

I don't see anything really sinister here. Irritating perhaps, but not sinister. And tossing in the DRM buzzword is a real stretch.

While on Symbian land...

[Anonymous Coward]

Same kind of application exists 3G connection of phone and sets up a freaking WiFi hotspot.
I don't think they had to get allowance from Nokia, Samsung or Sony to ship it.
No hacks needed and free.
http://www.symbian-guru.com/welcome/2008/02/joikuspot-turns-your-s60-into-a-wifi-hotspot.html
I can easily bet similar exists for Win Mobile.
Please keep apologizing for Apple...

That should not be an issue

[r_cerq]

There are many European countries selling 3G based "broadband Internet", with dedicated devices (not phones, just simple USB HSDPA modems that take a SIM card).

In those countries, the basestations should be more than capable of handling hogs (either by allowing the traffic, or by throttling abusers so they don't mess up everybody else's connections).

As for tethering... That's the main reason I gave away my iPhone 3G (I work for a mobile operator, got one at launch day, and gave it away to the person in my team that pulled the longest straw. Yes, literally.). Every phone I've had for the last 4 years has allowed me unrestricted bluetooth connectivity to the internet, starting with GPRS and now with HSDPA), and it is something I use *a lot*. I don't have to take my phone out of the pocket, I just fire up the laptop, push a button, and I'm done.

Re:That should not be an issue

[TheRaven64]

The UK is one of these countries. You can get UMTS modems from 3, Vodafone and T-Mobile (not sure about O2) and all three are currently deploying HSPDA networks. O2 has always been the most expensive network for data, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had more limited capacity than everyone else since, before the iPhone, there wasn't much demand for it.

Re:That should not be an issue

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

Of course it's an issue.

Sure, you can buy a USB modem and sign up for mobile broadband, but to my knowledge it starts at about £10 a month for 1 GB of usage. The iPhone comes with unlimited data and no 'fair usage' limit.

Not sure what provider you guys are using, but I think you'll find that you are restricted in the data you consume (usually to single digit GB).

The only reason that the iPhone isn't, is because generally speaking, it's pretty hard to use too much with a phone and a browser. Start tethering and it's a different game.

Re:That should not be an issue

[r_cerq]

We've always had bandwidth caps where I live, ADSL included.

The cap for the mobile access my company sells is currently at 25 GB/month, but there are frequent promotions of the "join until the end of August and get unlimited downloads forever" type, so we have a lot of "unlimited" customers. And no, they're not an issue.

Re:That should not be an issue

[TheRaven64]

Huh? There's nothing stopping you from pulling the SIM out of an iPhone and putting it into another phone if the contract is really that good a deal.

Re:That should not be an issue

[zsau]

You keep straw in your office?

Re:iPhone nimrods make me laugh

[Anonymous Coward]

For your information, a "nimrod" is a hunter, and a highly-skilled one at that.

Sadly, many unintelligent urbanites acquire their vocabulary from Bugs Bunny cartoons (e.g., when Bugs calls Elmer Fudd a "silly little nimrod"). When the cartoons were made in the 1940s, it was well understood that it was not Elmer's intelligence that was being mocked, but rather his utter failure as a hunter.

Abuse of the term "nimrod" is equivalent to abuse of the term "hacker". If you don't like the one, you shouldn't do the other.

Windows Mobile has it for free

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Mobile smart phones have tethering capability built in. It's the Internet Sharing application.

It was rather amusing at the airport the other day. I had my laptop tethered to my WM smart phone via Bluetooth. Along comes some iPhone geek, laptop in bag, who rants about how he has an iPhone so he doesn't have to use the airport's overpriced WiFi.

I told him that I was using the AT&T 3G network on my laptop via my phone. That I didn't have to use a bitty screen for the net when I had a perfectly good laptop (remember, he did too; he just couldn't use his on the Internet without using the airport WiFi).

Then came the knife-twist: "Oh, you can't do that on Apple."

what about DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I simply don't see the connection with DRM. AT&T is a busines, unless your plan allows for it they don't want you to connect to the Internet and drive up usage through your laptop. They sell devices for that purpose.

So maybe somebody can enlighten me. Where does DRM come into play?

The application has been un-pulled

[Anonymous Coward]

It was back in the App store within a couple of hours.

Maybe Slashdot should stick to news that don't evolve over time... you know, like a newspaper.

Nullriver or Apple? probably Apple :-(

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't Nullriver putting up and taking down their app repeatedly to court publicity, is it? Assuming that's possible (as it certainly should be, e.g. to stop distribution if critical security/data loss bug found).

The alternative explanation, the fear that originally made me draw a line through development plans for the iPhone, would be that Apple is exercising its power to arbitrarily decide what apps are suitable for distribution. At least my 9-year-old Motorola Timeport will give me tethering out of the box, if all the devices I've owned since then suddenly disappear too .

Um You Don't know Jack

[gigamonkey]

How do you know this; 1. AT&T had to ban this to protect the network. 2. Presumably, someone at Apple OK'd this software without checking the AT&T T&Cs. 3. AT&T can't decided what is available in the App Store. Enough of your uber speculation. You fail to recognize that the simple fact that it was there means that it will most likely be back. for all you know the dev took it down due to some flaw. The first time it came down was because it just didn't work... Stop with the whole Iphones are lame thing. The Iphone is the by far has best phone interface on the market. You cant argue that. If you have not seen it don't even atempt to. If you have you can't say that Nokia or Motorola or RIM is better. Why? Cuz they all suck. As far as ATT goes with the tethering thing. This app we are talking about is a SOCKS PROXY ATT will never know you are using it for tethering unless they actually start sniffing your packets and doing look ups on destinations. Example... Ah lookie there packets going to wow servers must be tethered... Less whaa whaa more thinking

Re:Um You Don't know Jack

[oldhack]

...Stop with the whole Iphones are lame thing. The Iphone is the by far has best phone interface on the market. You cant argue that. If you have not seen it don't even atempt to. If you have you can't say that Nokia or Motorola or RIM is better. Why? Cuz they all suck....

Lame. ;-)

Official reply from Nullriver

[gigamonkey]

Just an official reply from Nullriver.... We're not quite sure why Apple took down the application yet, we've received no communication from Apple thus far. NetShare did not violate any of the Developer or AppStore agreements. We're hoping we'll get some feedback from Apple tomorrow. Sorry to all the folks that couldn't get it in time. We'll do our best to try to get the application back onto the AppStore if at all possible. At the very least, I would hope Apple will allow it in countries where the provider does permit tethering. We'll keep everyone posted. Thanks!

HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[catmistake]

First of all... the iPhone IS special. What it is doing in this app and in the link I'll provide below for jailbroken phones is not something lots of phones can do, if any others.

Second of all, this app was NOT a tethering app. AS you say, tethering is done by either BlueTooth or USB cable. What this app did is create an access point by sharing the cellular network over wifi. You don't "tether" your laptop to a wireless router, do you? Now that we're clear on that, I guess we have to live with everyone calling it tethering.

iPhone 3G as a wifi access point

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

bah you missed the point. It's not tethering because it's just using a socks5 proxy.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[burris]

Puhleese, Mac OS X Internet Sharing has long had the ability share the bluetooth connection of a tethered smartphone or a cellular card over wifi. You get dhcp and everything.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. Big whoop. I've been able to use my ppc6700 as a wireless access point and share internet to any 802.11b devices for at least two years.

So the parent is 100% correct. People who think the iphone is unique are out of touch with the smartphone market.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

you seem to have missed it. this isnt phone ->bluetooth -> mac -> wifi sharing, the phone itself is acting as the AP

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[burris]

what difference does it make?

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[digitalchinky]

My Nokia N95 has been playing the part of an access point for near on a year and a half already, before that my N80, sharing its internet to various laptops when the starbucks goes dead. (In fact, any S60v3 with wifi can do this)

This is not a new thing at all, and definitely not unique to the iPhone.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Not a lot of phones eh?

http://www.wmwifirouter.com/

First of all... the iPhone IS special. What it is doing in this app and in the link I'll provide below for jailbroken phones is not something lots of phones can do, if any others.

Second of all, this app was NOT a tethering app. AS you say, tethering is done by either BlueTooth or USB cable. What this app did is create an access point by sharing the cellular network over wifi. You don't "tether" your laptop to a wireless router, do you? Now that we're clear on that, I guess we have to live with everyone calling it tethering.

iPhone 3G as a wifi access point

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[16K Ram Pack]

just curious - do you use joikuspot to do that, or is there another way?

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows mobile wifi router

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

The nokia e-series phones have this capability for a while now using a software called JoikuSpot.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[oyningen]

I know a bunch of nokia phones do this right out of the box, it's probably not such a fancy new feature as you might think. Without any need for jailbraking or silly stuff like that either ;)

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[AncientPC]

You mean like WM Wifi Router? Yeah I've been using that for about 18 months now already without the need to jailbreak my phone. Plus Sprint's SERO plan offers unlimited texting and data for $30 / month.

Re:HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point

[Anonymous Coward]

well, tethering implies a single user, APs support many users. And if you used 'tethering' to describe connection to an AP, you'd get laughed at. The difference is one description is accurate, and one is incorrect.

God damn AT&T. They can suck my fucking cock.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck them for trying to charge extra for a feature that is built-in to any phone with Bluetooth. It would be one thing if you somehow used more bandwidth by tethering, but you don't. AT&T is providing absolutely ZERO additional services beyond what the phone's manufacturer has already built into the phone.

Also, fuck them for their high data plan rates. They charge just as much as the cable company does for high-speed internet. And at least the cable company lets me use a router, and I get to surf the web with a 21" monitor instead of a 2" LCD. If AT&T would get their act together and drop the cost of unlimited data on your smartphone to $15 a month, twice as many people would sign up. Fucking greedy bastards.

The Difference Between Uniqueness and Design

[EgoWumpus]

Frank Lloyd Wright never did anything unique, from a functionality perspective. But he's still hailed as an amazing architect because he focused on design; making things look good, feel good and accessible. It's fine to say, "The iPhone doesn't do anything unique" - even 'true'. But the way it allows you to do all of those non-unique things is way, way better. You say it yourself; the iPhone has fewer buttons/keys. Perfect! The threshold of use is lower - and that is, actually, a good thing.

In short, you're right but you're missing the point of why the iPhone is doing well. The battery is not the issue - that's sort of like saying that when the hammer has no haft, it's useless. Of course it is. But why worry about that first? Is it functional? Is it easy to use? I don't have a problem charging my phone's battery. Do you? The elevation of small quibbles is not a reasonable way to objectively determine the worth of something.

For more

[angeln123]

A best website for IT man! http://pccity.myhosting247.com/

squid with a gui wrapper

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a look at the application screenshots and it looks like squid with a gui wrapper

Re:squid with a gui wrapper

[Guy Harris]

I took a look at the application screenshots and it looks like squid with a gui wrapper

Can Squid run as a SOCKS proxy? (Not "can Squid access the Internet through a SOCKS proxy?", but "*can* Squid *itself* run as a SOCKS proxy?") If not, then NetShare isn't particularly like Squid with a GUI wrapper, as NetShare is a SOCKS proxy (and, as far as I know, doesn't cache Web pages, as Squid does).

SSH and terminal access

[straponego]

Could somebody with an iphone give this a shot? Try running LinuxVNC, which provides VNC access to a console session (Ubuntu/Debian has a package for this). VNC from iPhone to linux box... how does it work? Are control sequences (such as those for screen), usable? Look okay? Semi usable keyboard? Does the VNC client have SSH tunnelling?

Probably 80% of what I'd really want tethering for is SSH access. I'd much rather use a real keyboard and big screen for that, but if Apple insists on forcing us to use far more bandwidth to do things the silly way...

That said, I'd pretty much decided to buy two iPhones today (one for me, one for gf). But this bitch move on Apple's part (AT&T is known to be pure evil, so you can't blame them, because they have no choice) leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Guess I'll hold out for Android after all.

Re:SSH and terminal access

[maynard]

I have the VNC app. I works well enough for VNC, but if what you want is a terminal with ssh then you're better off jailbreaking the phone. MobileTerminal is available via the Cydia installer and mostly works. Except for a few nasty bugs, like a messed up keyboard in landscape mode and Apple keyboard auto-correct problems that can make password entry somewhat nightmarish.

"insightful"?

[xant]

This reads like an apology for Apple. Apple and AT&T should both go to hell for stifling innovation.

Give me my android phone. I'll wait as long as it takes.

Re:"insightful"?

[dwater]

> Give me my android phone. I'll wait as long as it takes.

Innovation? Almost every other phone available can do this already...certainly every S60 phone.

You can do it via USB, bluetooth, or even turn your phone into a wifi hotspot.

Either you have a very strange definition of innovation, or I'm missing something about what 'tethering' means...

Re:"insightful"?

[rm999]

No cell phone provider will allow you to tether your phone to a laptop without paying an extra fee. If the practice becomes mainstream, expect more bandwidth limitations or filtering.

Re:"insightful"?

[itsdapead]

Give me my android phone. I'll wait as long as it takes.

...and your network will still expect you to pay extra to use it as a modem.

Re:"insightful"?

[tzanger]

No cell phone provider will allow you to tether your phone to a laptop without paying an extra fee. If the practice becomes mainstream, expect more bandwidth limitations or filtering.

Rogers in Canada does. I am typing this from an x950 expresscard which I pay $50/mo for 500MB transfer. I am switching the plan to $30/mo for 6G transfer, and I can use that 6G (or the current 500MB) for anything I want. I can slap the SIM in my L6 and tether it with bluetooth (although only at GPRS speeds), or I can slap the SIM into any other phone and tether. Rogers doesn't care.

Now granted, Rogers sucks hairy goat nut in other respects, but they don't give a damn about tethering. Data is data. In fact, I do not think that Bell, Telus (both CDMA) or Fido (GSM like Rogers) cares.

Re:iPhone nimrods make me laugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual. Obviously the GP did not mean to laud you with praise, so get over it and accept it.

N95

[QuoteMstr]

I love my N95. Not only does it do everything the iPhone does (except have a touchscreen, which I don't want), tethering is a cinch via bluetooth or USB. I can install any application I want on it. Applications can actually run in the background. And it looks like Symbian might actually become an open-source OS.

Plus, it had 3G support from the start. And wifi. And VOIP. And a built-in GPS receiver. etc. etc.

Wow. I sound like an ad. I'm really just a satisfied customer.

Re:N95

[16K Ram Pack]

As an E65 user who has installed a few apps, I was waiting for this day to come, when people realised that the friendliness and convenience of a Master Control Program for their iPhone would bite them in the balls.

I know someone who has just bought this app, and he's now wondering if Apple are going to force an uninstall, but I think that's unlikely. But of course, it does mean that he now has an unsupported application.

It's reassuring to know that I can point my browser at an address somewhere on the web, and get the software from the creator if I want, and that Nokia aren't going to get in my way.

The iPhone is not a traditional "smartphone".

[argent]

The iPhone is designed to be used as a Treo or iPaq running any software you can create for it, unrestricted. it's not a "pocket mac" or even the new Newton. It may become that, eventually, but if you're buying one expecting it to be anything but a really good cellphone with Internet access, you're buying the wrong product.

And on top of that...

As long as it's got unlimited cellular data services for a fixed rate, you're not going to get an unlocked unrestricted iPhone. That's an obvious tradeoff... if you're getting unlimited cellular data service, you're going to be limited on how you can use it, and tethering your cellphone to a general purpose computer is way beyond anything they can afford to allow.

lame

[B3ryllium]

This is like if Buy-N-Large (neé Wal-mart) had a (landline or cellphone) phone subsidiary, and you started talking about a competitor's store over the phone ... and they broke into the line and disconnected you.

Apparently, as it stands now, phone lines are open - but phone software is not. And I think that's lame.

NetShare is back. Will you shout that as loud?

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest update, courtesy of TUAW:

Hi, NetShare is back on the Apple Store, hopefully for good this time! We're not quite sure why Apple took down the NetShare application yet, we've received no communication from Apple thus far. NetShare did not violate any of the Developer or AppStore agreements to our knowledge. It is unknown how mobile phone carriers may react to using the program. Or if they are even in a position to tell. My personal advice is to not go NUTS just yet by downloading tons. Also be aware that contracts/carriers vary in what they offer from country to country, please be careful your service doesn't have a metered limit, that if you go over may incur extra costs for you.

Does this mean Slashdot will be correcting this post, writing a new post to report on the restoration, or do we have to hope that an AC will get modded to +5 to give this a sliver of visibility?

Global Politics in 30 seconds

[thedbp]

Global Politics in 30 seconds

This pretty much sums up how we feel about all you other bastards.

Haha, iPhone..

[Anonymous Coward]

And I keep laughing at all this fuss around a piece of electronics no more no less than many others on the market, with the only point of having a magistral marketing and brand for itself.

That's all, really. Marketing and brand, and how the boss is good at it. He could sell boxes of fresh air (the one you breathe, not the laptop), and there would be fans queuing up at midnight for, and being very happy with their new thing.

Closure of mind, paranoia, only the shares that count, sensationalist hungry press, too much speed, naughty copyrights, locks, lawsuits, litigations, restrictive contracts, over-the-top marketing : limitations of freedom and most of all limitation of creativity, that's the true problem of the North American continent today, that holds it behind the future, behind my good old Nokia that might not have a touchscreen but does just all and well what I needed..

I wanted to give Apple a shot, but I give up. All I see is just another face of the same medal, Steve in place of Bill, maybe with a bit more smartness and style, that's all. I stay free. Transparent. Opensource.

Not my problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that AT&T or the RIAA or Apple may have invested a lot of money is not only not my concern, it's not my business. You seem to be implying that because they have invested money that they have some sort of moral right to do as they please.

Well, I don't recognize their authority to do anything other than offer something for sale. Once it's sold to me, I will do with it as I please.

And yes, if they want to cut me off, that's their business too.

What I object to is that the government becomes the agent of enforcement of profits. That's bullshit. And because the government has essentially conspired against it's own citizens and with business entities that buy sponsorship of corrupt laws, then it's hard to recognize them as valid laws.

Son, we're at that point. We're at that point.

Why do you think that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think it's "wrong" to use your property however you want?

As to getting "shut down", that's simply false. Jailbroken phones/ipods are not a problem and unless you let apple, they cannot "shut them down".

Further, why do you think Apple has the right to control property they've sold to people? I wish you wouldn't give away your rights so casually or so easily.

Download Link

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a download link for those who have jailbroken their iPhones.
Here is a different way of sharing your 3G connection using 3proxy.
Both require you to have jailbroken your iPhone using pwnage if you want to run on 3G.

But seriously

[ToasterMonkey]

Man, why do I have to choose between friend or foe?
Why can't I just mark people "dumbass", and get little dunce caps over their posts so I can read them for my own amusement?

I also need more mod options, like
-1 Straw Man
-1 Missed the Point
-1 Changed the Subject
-1 Read About it On the Internet
+1 Overheard From Coworker
+2 Has Touched the Technology He/She is Talking About
+3 Implemented it
+5 Created it

and of course here, I'd use one of these
-1 Disagrees For Sake of Disagreeing
-1 Empty Arguments and Defenseless Claims
=0 Writes Long Posts That Only Amount to "I Disagree", Garnering Way Too Many +1 "Me Too" Mods

Please forgive me for not replying directly to any these empty points. Oh hell, I'll just pick one at random...

Do you think the Iphone would be getting even a fraction of media coverage it gets, if it wasn't produced by Apple?

Do you have ANY idea what this product would look like if it weren't produced by Apple? I'll tell you! It would look exactly like all the claimed "iPhone killers" that were already on the market or coming to the market.
Are any of them popular enough to warrant any media coverage at all? Now, be honest, which came first? iPhone popularity, or media coverage?
Are you really sure the answer you were looking for could be obtained with that question?

If a different country decided to overthrow the government of Iraq, would the UN support them the same?
Now, THAT's how you start a pointless argument, buddy.

I used to think it was me, then my wife got one

[EdwinFreed]

My iPhone is the fourth smartphone I've had. I spent enough time with its predecessors to know all the tricks - and there were plenty of those to learn - to use most of their features. Address book, calendar, camera, games, etc. - at one point I even synced the phone with my laptop regularly.

The trouble was doing all this stuff felt about as good as having a root canal. Sure, there was a keyboard shortcut feature that made a few things easier. But over time almost everything fell into disuse because it was just too painful to operate.

The iPhone has changed my habits completely. Everything that was hard to do is now easy. The only thing I didn't like was having to use a cable to sync it. (But unlike its predecessors the sync always worked flawlessly.) Even that is now a nonissue with MobileMe.

I thought maybe it was just me being too picky. But then...

My wife, whose interest in matters technical is fairly limited, has also had a smartphone for quite a while. (Actually a much nicer one than mine.) But after browsing the manual she never did anything with it - she said it was too much trouble.

Last week she got an iPhone. She hasn't had a moment's difficulty operating it. And she's using the phone's capabilities for the first time. For example, her addressbook is already full of entries, entries she typed into Address Book on her computer and synced to her phone with no help from anyone.

Usability really does matter. And while the iPhone is a long way from perfect, it represents a substantial advance.

Re:I used to think it was me, then my wife got one

[dindi]

Usability really DOES matter. I am a tech, a prgorammer, a network admin, and when I say that some phones are a PAIN to operate, I hope that at least /. people agree.

I mean i love command line, I use bash, sed, mc, awk (and others BUT drag&drop)... and guess what .... it really feels like a root canal picking my Nokia up and do ANYTHING ...

BTW OSX is the same. My wife hated to deal with Linux or Windows. I got her a Mac mini 2 years ago, and she barely asks my help with anything (other than upgrades, or if my print server/net dies..... Oh ... when excel does refuse to do something.....

Not to be a Mac fanboy, but to be honest Apple knows how to make something user friendly ...

Modem?

[drolli]

But is assume you can use it as a modem without this software, or am i wrong?

My mileage differs from yours

[david in brasil]

Not a troll, but just my experience. My experience is that Apple's OS is no more stable than Windows OS. My Apple laptop crashed more often than the Wright Bros. After a year of trying ("I *want* to believe!"), I gave up and went back to Windows. Sure it has its problems, but it never dumps me as much as my Apple did. P.O.S. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple of years, but I'm not going to gamble thousands of dollars just to find out that they haven't.

Re:My mileage differs from yours

[crmarvin42]

What was the last version of Mac OS you used? early OS X was more crash prone (10.0-10.2) than recent versions, just like the initial release of XP was more crash prone than SP2. The only crashes I have to deal with on a regular basis these days are office '08 apps. They may have gotten native code but it is as buggy as they come IMHO.

I actually switched to Mac in the last year or so of OS 9, so I remember installing OS 10 on a separate partition and finding it too unstable for everyday use until late in the 10.2 cycle.

Re:Stop being an insightful troll

[Psykechan]

Breaking it down even further.

Having the iPod be recognized as a USB mass storage device while still requiring custom software to load music onto it is a good design. The iPod works by reading a custom database that points to the actual music files on the device. The remaining space can be used for storage of files like a normal USB drive. I personally keep various utilities on mine including Floola.

I'm sure by looking at the box that you can see this it's not big enough to fit a normal CD in it. Also note that mini-CDs are not an option because most (if not all) slot loading Macintosh computers cannot use mini-CDs. I believe on the box it does say "Internet Connection Required" and you are posting to /. so this shouldn't be an issue.

Windows 98 is not supported. From the specification page: Windows Vista or Windows XP Home or Professional with Service Pack 2 or later For that matter, Windows XP running SP1 isn't even supported.

The iPod Shuffle manual (located with very minimal searching here (warning: PDF)) explains what those blinking LED messages mean. You have to READ the manual to know what the magic is.

I will admit that this post sounds defensive of Apple products, especially because I also admit to being a Mac and iPod owner. I personally have encountered many more jagged edges with Apple products than you have but I am not a "fanboy", I'm simply an educated user and I have done my research and found this solution better than the alternatives.

Your wife clearly did not even read the packaging, let alone perform any outside research before buying the product and now you are bitter for having to support it. Maybe you should just be happy that she didn't buy a Zune. Not only does the Zune have the same limitations that the iPod has but it halts writes to the device until handshaking is complete. I'm not trying to bash the device, just point out that problems exist elsewhere.

Perhaps the best solution is to educate yourself and your wife so that you know what you're getting into.

Re:Stop being an insightful troll

[SpectreBlofeld]

Why not put iTunes on the flash memory of the device itself, executable once the USB drive is mounted?

I bought my iPhone from the devil

[MadMidnightBomber]

I figured the TCO would be less than buying from AT&T, and less small print.

N95 already has this.

[Anonymous Coward]

This functionality comes pre-installed with the n95. I am an AT&T customer and have been using it for almost a year now and it's great!

Somehow AT&T doesn't seem to notice my 2-5GB of data every month...

fuck you

[Anonymous Coward]

am not a apple fan,but the rumers thats going around just now about apple inc is bad at the moment,the way they treat customers is appalling,they put DRM on everything thay sell to us it's not going to solve enything by puting Drm on stuff,its just going to make more people hack in to software.and you loose alot of customers with DRM as well,what do you get with a apple product defecate shit.