Slashdot Mirror
Israel Moves Toward a National Biometric Database
An anonymous reader writes "Israeli's government has approved the creation of a biometric database which would contain fingerprints and facial photos of all Israeli citizens. If the bill becomes law — and it is at an early stage — the biometric information of each citizen would be embedded in their passport and national ID card. Israeli citizens would be required by law to submit to biometric testing upon request by government employees, soldiers, and policemen, so that their biometric info can be compared to the info embedded in their ID card / passport. The declared purpose of the bill is to combat forgery of passports and ID cards, and also to aid identification 'in cases of a mass disaster.' The bill was approved over objections from civil rights groups and the Israeli Bar. The article notes that no other democratic country has a comprehensive biometric database of all citizens."
...you can just hear the maniacal cackling of the engineers of the Third Reich. Weird how the more time passes, the more it appears they didn't lose the war, after all.
Caveat Utilitor
Sounds more insidious than some of the neighboring countries we decry as anti-freedom.
I wonder how many of my tax dollars are being used by their government to subjugate their people? I don't like this at all, not for any nation.
Blar.
Now other countries can use the excuse that Isreal did it, so "we're not alone"
A friend of mine has dual citizenship in the US and Israel. How would this affect someone like him visiting Israel, even though the U.S. is his home?
Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
Once again, the Jews set the terms for their own destruction by failing to believe just how evil the outside world is and making it much easier for people who gain access to this information to target specific individuals. Very worrying for one reason: It is not optional! What can you do? Refuse to have your details obtained or leave the country.
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
...because we all know that the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the indisputable authority on what is an essential liberty.
Bullshit.
This was obviously modded troll because the moderator didn't like the opinion, not because it wasn't a valid point of debate. It is a valid point of debate. While it may be a minority opinion here at Slashdot, there is no denying that it isn't a majority opinion in many countries around the world (for example, the security obsessed UK).
Moderators: don't moderate down posts just because you disagree with them. That is not the point of moderation.
(Posted as AC to prevent the karma hit from mods who will disagree with this post.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
The implications for privacy and surveillance, are not insignificant.
(Plus there's the implied assumption that citizens are doing something wrong until they can prove otherwise.)
Thousands are enslaved every day. A River of In
Will they make the Palestinians all wear little green crescent badges on their clothes ?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
> The implications for privacy and surveillance, are not insignificant.
Tarnation! I relocated a parenthetical and left a comma in!
Ah, well. Maybe I can captain a starship now.
Thousands are enslaved every day. A River of In
The article notes that no other democratic country has a comprehensive biometric database of all citizens.
But the UK is working on it.
If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
And before all of you Ben Franklin quoters start yammering, the key word Ben Franklin used was "essential."
Actually, the way that reads, it doesn't sound like he's implying that liberty is essential, not that there are a select number of essential liberties, and all the rest are forfeit. Here's the quote:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
And if there's really any doubt in your mind of what Franklin's intent was, here's a quote from Poor Richard's Almanac:
Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.
Look, if you really have no problem giving up your liberty, go for it. I'm not stopping you. If you have no problem with the Israelis giving up their liberty, I'd love to hear your argument.
But picking apart the semantics of a historical quote, and then using that to imply that the man agrees with you -- that just makes you look stupid. Honestly, do you think any of the Founding Fathers would've consented to biometrics, when they literally got up in arms over a tea tax?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
And I should use Preview more often:
it does sound like he's implying that liberty is essential, not that there are a select number of essential liberties...
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
It would be good if Slashdot stories provided some perspective.
When stories about small countries are posted, it is useful to know the population. The entire country of Israel has a population like a big city. There are only 7,282,000 people in Israel. There are only 5,499,000 Jews in Israel. There are only about 14,000,000 Jews in the entire world.
Slashdot often runs stories about New Zealand. There are only 4,270,605 people in all of New Zealand, both north and south islands.
There are only 21,382,480 people in Australia.
What do you mean impossible?
If you read the article, the Nazi's RFID tags are clearly shaped like swastikas, duh.
There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
* Forge ID card .. without DNA .. which I'm sure will be the justification for taking that next.
* Find some way to have "your" details "corrected" in the national database
* Who would possibly believe the real identity owner?
*
*
The French philosopher, Gilles Deleuze wrote the following prophetic words 30 years ago:
Singapore's had their National Registration Act since 1966.
Every Singapore Citizen is registered, with their facial photograph and fingerprints (and more).
Many Reform jews are pro-Zionist (think the State of Israel is a good thing) but strongly disapprove of the way it treats Palestinians, the Lebanese and their other neighbours, and object to the hypocrisy of Israel having 200 nuclear warheads and then complaining about regional destabilisation (e.g. the letter from Gerald Kaufman MP in the Guardian this weekend). The result is often quite vicious attacks by Orthodox Jews.
Now look at this in the context of this biometric database. It is a wonderful opportunity for the Orthodox in Israel to identify Jews who they may regard as troublemakers. (They already routinely do things like refuse to recognise marriages of non-Orthodox Jews, or refuse to recognise conversions ratified by Reform rabbis). This database will give the police and the army more power to identify and harass, not only the Palestinians, but people who disagree with the settlers and the ultra-Zionists.
Many of the founders of Israel were secular; a lot of them were socialists. I think they would be horrified by this proposal and would even quote the Torah against it.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
The people living on that land had very little to do with the Empires which claimed to own the land.
They were just living their lives and saw that some outside forces had made claims. It wasn't until the creation of Israel that those empires had real effects of the average resident. That's when they began to fight back.
Imperialism and nation-building always fails.
Blar.
And the Israeli tags are shaped like a little star because the government decided that it was a shape that conveyed their aspirations for a better, more peaceful society. And they're bright yellow to make them harder to misplace.
Of all the nations in the world you might hope would be wary of pervasive monitoring, you'd think one that bills itself as a "jewish state" would be it.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
We should have just officially given them Florida instead... Problem solved.
You just got troll'd!
A system Hitler would have had wet dreams about, and it's a right wing Jewish government that is bringing it into being. How long until some uniformed Israeli soldier struts up to a family and arrogantly demands, "Your papers. Immediately!"
I would bet the majority of Jews around the world and in Israel are horrified by this measure, and disgusted by the people who want to implement it. What price security?
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Pants-filling pussies disagree about what is an essential liberty. That's fine. They might not like what happens if they actually get their wish and crush the 'non-essential' liberties cherished by many of their countrymen.
This liberal is a proud gun owner.
Blar.
Wow... I just won a bet over a prediction I made 3 years ago. Thanks Slashdot.
They finally made it public eh?
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
I suppose the next step will be DNA forgery. Underage kids will need some Gattaca like setup to buy beer. It's just the end of freedom as we know it.
Since most the country does compulsory army duty, they already have everyone's fingerprints, photos, dental records and blood tests etc. (things that army needs to identify you when you come home in multiple pieces)
Since the US and UK have mandated biometric passport data, they would be collecting biometric data anyway.
The only thing that this does is cover the remaining percentages and have dogged the army.
A national ID card has been around for many many years. Luckily for Israelis they do not have a governments that seem to abuse this data nor a high court that bends over and looks the away when people try and abuse this power.
The reality is that the data exists. The only new factor here is that it will be embedded on your ID card rather then click away on a terminal.
USA USA USA... Canata... Canata Canada... oh wait... Mexic.... oh wait... Brazi... Braz... nvm... lets see... UK UK UK... nvm... wait... where exactly has it failed? I'm not sure the original denizens of any of those lands have descendants left alive to make any claims that empire has failed. Empire has alway succeeded beyond its wildest dreams.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Governments use terrorists. States use threats to its own people to get more control over them. 'Terrorism' has been very useful for this purpose; much better than burglars, 'communist' union activists, or even paedophiles. For a parallel, most Chinese will refer to Tibetan protesters of any kind as terrorists; just what the Chinese government needs.
but with the U.S. funding and supporting Israel those 7.2 million get carte blanche to do things for which the 305 million in the U.S.A. get blamed
I'll post this as AC, to avoid karma-whoring.
The parent is referring to a book by George Orwell called Animal Farm. It's out of copyright in the UK, so can be read online (I did the other night, stayed up all night in fact. Yeah yeah, get out more, but if I did that I wouldn't be a Slashdot reader!).
I also highly recommend that, when the reader has finished the book, they do a little mental excercise in matching the animals to the actual people involved in the rise of Stalinist Russia.
Bear in mind that Orwell was writing before the events of the cold war, as far as I can tell the book ends here. Which brings us neatly back to what the parent is referring to:
A little off-topic, but what's a threaded conversation system for?
The problem with these sorts of things is they tend to be secret databases that John Q Public cant just go and check if things are being used appropriately. When the watchers are the ones who get to select their own watchers then potentially extremely inappropriate uses can and most likely will occur.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
So what? The article is about a democratic country (NOT a religion) passing draconian, Orwellian laws. The size of the population has little to do with it. A nation is a nation.
In fact all Israeli identity cards till recently had to mention the ethnic/religious group. I shouldn't say "since the beginning" but at least it has been like that for a long time.
It is not possible to be "just an israeli".
Godwin's law on the first post!
The path to enlightenment is truly through homemade drugs!
You have no problem with this? Read your history! You should have EVERY problem with this.
--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - And variations on this theme, commonly attributed to George Santayana
I can't believe this shit got modded +5 insightful. Oh wait, this is Slashdot, the home of rabid antisemitism.
This has fuckall to do with Nazis forcing Jews to wear yellow stars. Every citizen of Israel, which is a Jewish country, will be included in the database, which is being built by the aforementioned Jewish country. For the life of me I cannot understand how this is perfectly equal to Nazis forcing Jews in Germany to wear yellow stars right before genociding them. But hey, the complete absence of logic hasn't stopped leftists before from spouting stream-of-consciousness bullshit.
However, there are 45 million sheep.
While it may be a minority opinion here at Slashdot, there is no denying that it isn't a majority opinion in many countries around the world (for example, the security obsessed UK).
I think you may have miscounted your negatives. On the presumption that you meant to say that in the security-obsessed UK the majority opinion is that a national biometric database doesn't infringe on essential liberties, permit me to observe that the government sold the ID database to a significant (but not exclusive - terrorism was mentioned) extent on matters such as job security: i.e. it will cut down on working by illegal immigrants. Why they believe that employers who don't currently check National Insurance number cards will check biometric ID cards, I have no idea.
In short, a series of Home Secretaries claim to believe that a biometric database of the entire country is so far from infringing on essential liberties that it can be justified without recourse to security.
> But Singapore is not a democratic country.
Neither is Israel as argued by many political scientist. (I am not one, so look out for better sources if my arguments sound clumsy.)
You know that elected Arabic Israeli representatives have to agree to Israel being a Jewish state? Otherwise they cannot go into parliament. Do you think the Arabic minority feels represented by them? And then, no one will work with them on principle -- many members of parliament will leave once the Arabic representatives are speaking.
Moreover, Israel occupies a country. The Palestinians are not given citizenship. Is that democratic?
If an Arabic Israeli citizen chooses to live in the West Bank for some time, he will lose his citizenship (and right to vote, return to Israel, etc.). Weird democratic country.
The refugees are denied their right (human rights carta) to return home -- because Israel is afraid not to have a Jewish majority anymore. Is it democratic to select your citizens like that?
Israel fails many aspects of a modern democracy.
Probably not part of the theory, but if a minority of extremists in power does everything not to come to peace with the Palestinians, which the majority wants in some way or another, there is something wrong. The same applies for the Palestinian side, of course, but the West Bank and Gaza is not a modern democracy, either, aside from the fact that they are occupied and cannot rule themselves anyhow.
That would never have worked because the residents of Florida are one of the best armed populations on Earth.
Do you have to be an antisemite to disagree with the politics of Israel?
I mean really.. Do you really believe that saying that Israel behaves badly toward its neighbours and even its own citizens means you are prejudiced or hostile toward Jews?
Give it up.
This thing probably won't pass. I know that for Americans it's very hard to understand, but being a liberal and serving in an elite combat unit goes hand in hand here.
If you don't believe me, just read the news stories, and the bios of the kidnapped soldiers. The front lines are CEOs, lawyers, scientists, mathematicians, accountants and what not. The middle+ class are the people that go to war. The most leftist and liberal leaders were always the best generals - Rabin (Oslo) , Barak (pulled out of Lebanon), and in his last years, Ariel Sharon who pulled out of Gaza. And most importantly, there is not a single religious general, and Israel never had a religious leader.
I design complex real-time control systems (Mostly based on PIC/NEC/Toshiba ), and like any Israeli, for 28 days a year, I become a soldier. Despite what you may or may not understand about our society, chances are that there is plenty of holes in your understanding how this microscopic 5 million people country works.
But point is, nobody here trusts the government, the current government is extremely weak, and on the verge of being replaced. This thing will not pass. Most people here read 1984 =).
My Starcraft 2 Blog
That would never have worked because the residents of Florida are one of the best armed populations on Earth.
But they're all Jews already ;)
You just got troll'd!
Out of morbid curiosity, why is my post modded as troll and why is the GP modded troll and flamebait? The historical resonances are pretty overt.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Before you all get excited: the law stands at "kriaa tromit", which means it's just now readt to be voted on. Each law has to be voted three times after this stage... I'm sure it won't pass, since other draconic laws were blocked. This particular stage, is very easy to pass, for any law, even crazy ones....
But i don't think you appreciate the situation with Israeli documents: they are the most popular forged documents in the world right now: our passports are the easiest to mangle with, and because many countries trust Israeli passports, it's the most bought passport in the black market. Even the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs issued several rules to disencourage Israeli tourists from selling their passports... Our IDs are also quite popular, since we still have problems of women trafficking...
And about terrorism... well, i doubt anybody actually thinks this system will have anything to do with that. There are a very few actual cases, compared with the total, where Israeli citizens Arabs were involved in terrorist activity...
And the last comment i have on this issue, is that in the end, friends, it all comes down to money. Some CEO, with a security system, is related to some government official, and is going to rip off the treasury, when he accidentally of course, win the auction for creating the system. At least that was true for many other security related systems in Israel, the ones that did not go through the defense industry.
Hope I shed some light.
It is a bit contentious to call Israel a democracy. A few years back a poll from the Israeli Democracy Institute (IDI) concluded: In sum, from the relative ranking across all the indicators, Israel may be classified as a formal democracy that has not yet succeeded in incorporating the characteristics of substantive democracy. Not exactly a suspect source.
The Israeli government and many of its citizens are always implying so. The Israeli governments continual pretense (or perhaps its a genuine delusion) that they represent the Jewish people is one of the most insidious pieces of political trickery in the modern era. Being Jewish does not imply a particular political viewpoint of national affiliation. But some people don't half push the idea that it does...
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
That was a quick Godwin.
Guess there's nothing to see in this thread, folks. Move along.
Dude, it's not the Israeli Jews who will suffer here. It's the indigenous population. The Palestinians.
They are the ones who will suffer.
I'll be kind of gutted if you think I'm being anti-semitic, because I kinda pride myself on being 'right on' about shit in general. No- this is nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, and everything to do with it being a colony. Every colony that ever existed bullied the aborigines to a greater or lesser extent.
Not to get too pop-psychological, but there's also an element of 'the abused becoming the abuser' about Israel.
"Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
I'm not an expert, but as a rule of thumb the answer to any question that begins "why don't they just..." is money.
Israel is not a particularly wealthy nation, it has no oil, and very little in the way of natural resources of any sort. All of the security theatre they indulge in takes an incredible amount of money, and of course, there's the cost of rebuilding all the damage done by the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has done (and continues to do) to Israel. Quite frankly, I'm surprised they have enough money in the treasury to pay Haredi men not to work, and to build special bus lines so that the Haredi can commit criminal assault on women who won't kowtow to their loony beliefs.
Like most nations falling into the trap of the police state, Israel spends all of its money on "defense" rather than on beneficial programs that could actually end the problems it faces.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Or, you know, maybe Israel isn't actually a "colony." Not that I really even care since the Palestinians get no sympathy from me anyway. They don't deserve it.
Due to the constant threat of terrorism presented by the Palestinians, I don't find it suprising that Israel has come up with this idea. What else can they even do? Peace is not possible since Hamas will settle for nothing less than the eradication of Israel. There's no place for a Jewish nation in the Ummah.
That database already exist - every Israeli citizen who served in the army - the majority of population - already have his/her picture, fingerprints and other biometric data on file. So this will only affect people who did not serve in the army.
Plus Israel is different from other democracies: It's very small and everybody know everybody - there is special relationship between people there. Do you know of any other country that would let a convicted murderer of a 4 year old girl for the remains of it's 2 soldiers?
And to the people who would like to blame rabbis for this "conspiracy" - genetic information is inadmissible in the rabbinic court, last time I've checked.
It is possible to criticize the nation of Israel without being a Nazi troll. Admittedly there is a large degree of overlap, but let's not get carried away here.
Israel is a nation well on the way to becoming yet another theocratic police state just like Saudi Arabia. Recognizing that this is true does not require one to be an anti-Semite. As an atheist I hold Judaism in exactly the same degree of contempt that I hold all other religions, and I have nothing whatsoever against any Jews on the basis of their Jewishness.
That said, the nation of Israel is looking worse every day, and I think its no surprise at all that the USA has about as large a population of Jews as Israel does. Jews who aren't crazy fundamentalists realize that Israel is getting ever closer to becoming a genuine hellhole and they want nothing to do with it. Out of the worldwide Jewish population fully 60% have chosen *NOT* to live in Israel, and I think that shows a commendable degree of intelligence on their part.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Both sides behave badly. Neither excuses the other, and there is no room for forgiveness for or from each other.
The situation is hopeless until at least one side stops the retaliation.
Do you really believe that saying that Israel behaves badly toward its neighbours and even its own citizens means you are prejudiced or hostile toward Jews?
I think it's the Israelis = NAZIs that's assumed to be anti-Semitic.
Hell, I'm more on your page (don't like lots of Israeli policies, hate this new measure, think it's wrong in a lot of ways, setting a dangerous precedent, etc.) but I think the NAZI comparison is pushing it.
I'm a weird brand of orthodox liberal Jew, so my pet peeve is Israel=Jewish state=representative of all Jews, but while that's the status quo (which it probably will be 'til the country implodes), yeah Isreali=NAZI=Jew and comparing people to the people who killed 'em is kind of tasteless.
open source modern art: laser taggi
since there is this background idea that Israel is "one our our guys", who should be able to understand if you talk about oppression and apartheid. Contrary to err - those others who aren't there yet.
The US has supported terrorists in many countries, the IRA raised funds in the US for 30 years without being stopped, primarily through NORAID, and IRA terrorists used to be part of the New York St. Patricks Day parade until after 9/11, the US has even given political asylum to convicted IRA terrorists, in most of the world USA == terrorist, I think for the most part Americans have no idea how many billions of people all around the world thought that 9/11 was just a bit of payback for decades of US terrorism.
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Disregarding the veracity of all your claims, I feel compelled to point out you made one basic error. The people ruling Israel are the same people running America. Hint: they are neither the populations of Israel nor of America. As an Israeli citizen, and one who is in total opposition to Israeli (and American) state policies, I resent the implication that somehow Israel as a whole (which include the entire populace) is to blame for the murderous, criminal behaviour of the people leading it. Israel could be such a warm, peaceful place if all those power-grabbing fascist politicians had let it be...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Good, maybe that will help them curb terrorist attacks. Wake me up with Israel plans to genocide the Palestinian population.
I don't remember saying otherwise.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Out of the worldwide Jewish population fully 60% have chosen *NOT* to live in Israel, and I think that shows a commendable degree of intelligence on their part.
Actually, I was born outside Israel and have been planning to move there for a while. I never made any choice *not* to live in Israel, it just happened that way. It really isn't a hellhole or theocratic, trust me. The religious courts (which I don't like either, but hey...) have an extremely restricted jurisdiction and never rule on things that couldn't be passed along to religious courts in other countries via contract law. And they were doing so well at balancing freedom against security until this total fuckup...
Oh well, it hasn't passed yet. Let's hope the Knesset sees sense and votes it down.
But seriously, criticize the bill rather than flaming my homeland.
Since when is Israel a democracy?
Actually, I think Zionism is relevant to the subject at hand. The concepts of "a Jewish State" and "a state with a majority population of Jews" are quite different, and Zionism explicitly endorses the former. That's theocracy right out of the gate, and I don't think its at all surprising that an explicitly non-secular state is going down the path of totalitarianism. It goes part and parcel with being a non-secular state.
When you take into account the fact that the founders of Israel didn't bother with any guarantees of rights, a constitution, or any of the other necessary components of a free nation, but did design a state that privileges one religion over others, again, I think a discussion of the basic goal is not completely tangential.
Yes, there do appear to be a large number of people jumping out and saying "hur hur, Jews just like the Nazis", but this is Slashdot, did you really expect civility? Also, given Israel's terrible record WRT human rights, freedom, etc its hardly strange that many people here would not at all approve of Israel.
I've always agreed with Isaac Asimov: Israel was a terrible idea, poorly executed, and all it can ever hope to be is the world's largest ghetto. That Israel is continuing its policy of completely disregarding the very concept of human rights is only to be expected from a proto-theocracy.
I can, sort of, understand why some people would find the idea of a Jewish state so appealing, and it's always hard to let a dream die. But in the end the only two choices are giving up the idea of Israel as a Jewish state or letting Israel slide into the same hellhole status that awaits any theocracy. I wouldn't live there if you paid me a million Euros a year.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
If you don't live there and weren't born there I'm puzzled as to how you can describe it as your homeland.
More to the point, Israel was actually doing a terrible job on freedom and security until this. Note, just to choose one example, that the Israeli police admit (and often seem fairly proud) that torture of suspects is a routine procedure. There's a *LOT* more to criticize about Israel than this one bill.
If you genuinely think Israel has a good record on human rights, I'd recommend you do a bit more research.
And let me bring up, yet again, the fact that Haredi men seem to be empowered to commit criminal assault on any woman who refuses to kowtow to their nutty fundamentalism. If you are female I'd stay as far from Israel as possible. The state pays Haredi men not to work. I think there's quite a bit to not like about a nation that explicitly privileges its most insane religious elements.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Both ours and Israelis. :-)
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
That is very very funny.
comparing people to the people who killed 'em is kind of tasteless.
But what does taste have to do with it? Shouldn't all that matters be the aptness of the comparison?
After all, Nietzsche, that nazi-enabler, said: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby becomes a monster. For if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." Which is a generic admonition of essentially the same thing and few if any people fault him for it.
When I first learned of what was going on in palestine I really could not reconcile it with what I had been taught in history class (still can't actually) it seemed to me that the two countries most likely to have empathy for palestinians were the ones with the least - the USA (because of all the propaganda about freedom, self-determination, etc) and Israel because of their recent experience at the hands of an overwhelmingly powerful force. Not that I expected Israel to be happy about all the countries nearby ganging up on it, but I do expect them to handle the 'occupation' that followed in a much better way.
To further mix metaphors its like palestine is the weimar republic after WWI - they lost the war and israel is determined to exact unrealistic penalties from them, thus making them an ideal breeding ground for continuation of the conflict. When they ought to be taking a cue from the way the Allied powers handled the situation with the Axis countries after WWII.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You're right. If you're a right-wing Zionist tax-paying army-serving traditional Jewish Israeli citizen, you have nothing to be afraid of, and this systems benefits far out-weigh their risk to you.
Actually, it does infringe on Human Rights as defined by the United Nations.
My family has had a LOT to do with the UN and policies and frankly, this is a misrepresentation of the UN charters.
It's funny how people in one breath damn the UN for inaction, then in the next breath try to defile their charters by bending the definitions inside.
This is a VIOLATION OF BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. It's an afront to these very "freedoms" that the US has claims they are fighting for.
If you want to not be a tosspot and understand that ALL liberties are ESSENTIAL, read the actal charter - I don't think you will, as you are a /. neo-conservative.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
According to Wikipedia: [citation needed]
But, taking that at face value:
In response to this the British government passed the Tea Act, which allowed the East India Company to sell tea to the colonies directly and without "payment of any customs or duties whatsoever" in Britain, instead paying the much lower American duty.
In other words, smuggling aside, you couldn't be a legitimate tea merchant in America at the time, unless you were the East India Company. Favoritism, pure and simple.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Do you have to be an antisemite to disagree with the politics of Israel?
Unfortunately, that's what it comes down to: as the excuse is it's some "hate crime" to disagree with Zionism, as Zionism "is the state of Israel" (or whatever excuse to keep this 1000 year war alive).
So if you post something about how Zionists even treat fellow Jews - http://web.israelinsider.com/views/3998.htm -- that's a crime against their identity and State, and = anti-semite to them.
Frankly, I don't care about the label, because it's crazier to justify wanton killing for killing sake.
Shouldn't all that matters be the aptness of the comparison?
Sure, theoretically, but in the real world it just doesn't work. It's far too emotionally charged for people to keep a cool enough head to objectively evaluate the aptness of the comparison, and often is only used for the shock value.
For the record, I don't think the comparison is apt. The Israeli's actions are more akin to other colonial powers, not the NAZI's systematic killing and torture on the basis of race/ethnicity. Israeli's treat Palestinian's badly because of the political situation (religion and race are secondary/fueling the whole situation) where as the NAZIs chose the races and then created the political situation, and that's the least of it. Segregation in Israel is nowhere near as bad as it was in NAZI Germany, nor are rights quite that suppressed, (and that's ignoring cattle cars, concentration camps and gas chambers, those other staples of the NAZI regime).
Not that I expected Israel to be happy about all the countries nearby ganging up on it, but I do expect them to handle the 'occupation' that followed in a much better way.
I think to a certain extent they're screwed regardless of what the try, and I think they've tried almost everything at this point. It's 60 odd years of mistakes, many of which can't be corrected. Israel was created pretty much as a dp camp for holocaust survivors, at which point yeah nobody was really thinking about who lived there (collective guilt and all.) It only became as major problem once everyone was too heavily invested in the land for their to be a solution that would satisfy everyone, and every attempt has failed. (Though lately it looks like they're going towards a three state solution that people can somewhat live with.)
open source modern art: laser taggi
slashdot called. they said stay indoors. read more slashdot.
I happen to be in the middle of deploying an Upgrade of a comprehensive biometric database in a western and democratic nation. They have had one for years.. we're just replacing the tech with better tech. ..and no this is not a black-ops project. It is the voter registration system in Panama and very public. They are not the only country we work with either. I wish the article would get their facts straight. (some leniency given for the definition of "comprehensive")
See, it's this kind of reasoning that gives people the incentive to go and do terrorist attacks.
I fail to grasp how the idea of killing millions of people you never met can be so attractive to so many people.
Sadly (and P.S-ly), I'm very very afraid I'll have to wake you up soon.
Funny, that's the same excuse they gave us in the UK! Seems like every government is trying to blame other governments for requiring biometric passports. Where does the requirement actually come from? The International Civil Aviation Organization. Why is an opaque, unelected and unaccountable committee dictating the domestic policy of major powers? Interesting question.
You must be Australian.
Nuke the Jews. Exterminate them all then there will be world peace. NOW can I have a free lifetime subscription to DailyKOS please?????
"But what does taste have to do with it? Shouldn't all that matters be the aptness of the comparison?"
Yes, exactly.
I'm sick and tired of political discourse being filled with bizarre weasel words like 'tasteless' and 'tired' and 'offensive' and 'disloyal' to describe claims the speaker doesn't like which are, objectively, either *true* or *false*.
I'm sick of politics being about 'opinions'.
Politics *isn't* about opinions. It's about reality. People have strong opinions *about* it, yes, just as they do about science, but those opinions do not *determine* the truth or falsity of political claims: results do. It's not a matter of fashion. Truth doesn't get 'tired' or 'stale' from multiple repetition and lies do not get proven consensus acceptance no matter how many years have passed.
That's why history is an active research subject - we're too polite to admit it, but it's because HISTORY MAKERS LIE, and history is largely the science of sorting through the lies after the fact and determining from documentary evidence just how we were deceived and then guessing at why. If we could take public figures' words at face value at the time they say them, we wouldn't *need* either history or political science.
Political claims, like every other claim, need to be verified against objective, trustworthy evidence, one political system is NOT identical to another, and torture and oppression remain torture and oppression regardless of whether it's the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys' doing it.
And while Israel's policies toward Palestine are not identical to Nazi Germany's toward the Jews, there sure are depressing similarities.
And it just goes to show that suffering atrocity and swearing 'never again shall this happen TO US' is not quite the same as swearing 'never again shall we allow this happen, full stop'.
The other interesting thing is that America's 'torture lite' techniques are, from what I've read, not only nearly identical to the Cold War KGB's (sleep deprivation, sound, heat/cold, stress positions) -- but they actually migrated to the US military lexicon FROM the Soviets via the Cold War.
What you hate, you really DO stand a strong chance of becoming. Literally and not figuratively. Rivals copy each other and adopt the methodologies which seem to work.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Actually, it does infringe on Human Rights as defined by the United Nations.
Ok, so I read the charter you linked to, and I don't see how a national biometric database would infringe on any of the rights it mentions. The closest I found was the first phrase of article 12, but I think it is quite a stretch to say that a biometric database contradicts it somehow. Do you have any stronger or more specific evidence to support your claim?
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
Do you have to be an antisemite to disagree with the politics of Israel?
To quote the GP:
The creatures outside looked from nazi to jew, and from jew to nazi, and from nazi to jew again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
He didn't even mention Israel.
And this silly knee-jerk reaction modded +5 Insightful... bleh.
But what does taste have to do with it? Shouldn't all that matters be the aptness of the comparison?
Very simple. The comparison isn't apt. It's ludicrous.
You have to be a hardcore holocaust denier to claim that the Nazis' genocidal campaign comes close to the tiny regional conflict between Israel and Palestine. You have to be incredibly ignorant (or incredibly biased) to claim that human rights in Israel are as bad as they were in Nazi Germany.
And yet, this stupid meme lives on.
Why? Maybe because it creates a nice narrative symmetry. Maybe because it makes some people feel better about their own, often deeply antisemitic history. Maybe because it's outrageous enough to make the evening news.
Needless to say, these are not good reasons. The automatic comparison of Israel with the Nazis is primitive demagoguery and an outrageous lie.
I think it certainly is not just a matter of a minority of extremists. Rather the occupation and apartheid is deeply imprinted on the country(as is the need to obfuscate the reality). It is everywhere and it would be hard for any government to change direction.
One of the best sources to help understand that this is not just a matter of aggressive repression or tit-for-tat escalation is Jeff Halper from the Israeli Committee against House Demolitions (ICAHD). He explicitly speaks about Apartheid. But Apartheid exists in the laws, the bureaucracy, the everyday discrimination and so on. Halper focuses on the occupied territories but the israeli arabs are in a similar(though less uncomfortable) predicament. Halper compares them with the "colored" status.
So, if a new passport system is introduced I would ask is how will it discriminate against israeli arabs. Well, you could make the use of the new ID required for some services. Then, Israeli arabs would have problems (delays, extra permissions required,.. )getting their ID. Or they would have to go to another town to find an office with the new type of terminal. Or their ID wouldn't have some extra data that is required to get some permit. That's the kind of weird stuff I would expect and it emanates from the whole system.
Both ours and Israelis. :-)
Exactly ;-) although from a national point of view that could be seen as a geographical penectomy.
You just got troll'd!
And while Israel's policies toward Palestine are not identical to Nazi Germany's toward the Jews, there sure are depressing similarities.
No. Not really.
You could find much better analogies in the USSR (or even modern-day Russia), Belarus, various Arab and Central Asian (Uzbekistan, Turkeminstan) countries, China, South Korea and so on.
And yet, Israel is compared to the Nazis more than any of those.
You want objectivity? The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a tiny and relatively bloodless regional conflict. More people died in the current Iraq war than in the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict since 1948. Hell, I think more people died in the first two months of the Iraq war than in the whole 2nd Intifada. And that's just one example. I'm sure that I could find dozens of others (Russia/Chechnya springs to mind...)
Saying that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is anything like Nazi Germany is the furthest thing from "facts" or "objectivity". It's a crazy hyperbole, a cheap (and indeed, offensive) rhetoric trick.
What about the USS Liberty incident where unmarked israeli planes and warships attacked a US intelligence ship in the mediterranean? Imo, we should have wiped Tel Aviv or another major israeli city off the map for that.
The palestinians and arabs are pissed because leading up to the creation of israel for DECADES jews had been moving there and buying worthless desert land from the native people for almost nothing because, well, it was fucking worthless desert. They then proceeded to turn it into, for lack of a better word, paradise, and then the state of israel was created and shittons of jews started flocking there, so then all the arabs/native people stopped and thought, "wait a fucking minute they bought that land for almost nothing and now they are flourishing, WE WANT IT BACK OMFG!"
They most certainly are not a colony, they bought that land when it was worthless and built it up to be what it is today. But, I am 100% anti israel what with how much military aid we give them, the USS liberty incident, and that AIPAC pretty much determines who gets to be elected to public office in the US and who doesnt'.
Dude, it's not the Israeli Jews who will suffer here. It's the indigenous population. The Palestinians.
They are the ones who will suffer.
Says who?
From what I've heard, the biometric ID will supplement Israel's already-existing national ID. Its stated purpose is to combat forgery and identity theft (...), as well as convenience (you don't have to carry your ID/driver's license around all of the time). So, at the very least, The Jews are are going to suffer from this.
As for the Palestinians... well they don't have Israeli IDs since they are not Israeli citizens (the PA issues its own IDs). However, most of them have to go to Israel to work, or to visit family members, so they need a special Israeli permit. Now, you'd say that biometric measures would be added to those permits as well, and I think you'd be right. But the question here is, how is that going to make them suffer?
You see, one of the crappier parts of being a Palestinian is that a tiny piece of paper is basically your life. It can be stolen, it can get lost, it can be taken away by asshole soldiers. With biometry, you don't need that piece of paper.
Of course, it might hurt the Palestinians' privacy a bit. But remember that we're talking about people who can have their houses searched, and themselves arrested for arbitrary periods of time, without any real warrant or justification. I don't see how biometric ID can make it worse.
Well you surely get to occupy them some (which is what the US did in Germany and Japan, actually the US still arguably occupy Germany) and tell them what they can do or can't do (i.e. rebuild an army or not). I guess there's no way you would actually want to make Germany or Japan become part of the USA? I mean, that's not like German-owned Alsace or Mexican-owned California, American-owned Japan is quite a stretch, you can't turn the Japanese into Americans.
You just got troll'd!
Well, thanks to Bush I can no longer point to my own nation as a shining beacon of human rights. Worse I think it's extremely likely that as our soldiers trained in torture return from Iraq they will (as returning soldiers so often do) get jobs in the prison industry and we'll see an upswing of torture on American soil [1]. Still, I think the fact that its openly admitted policy in Israel is somehow worse. I also doubt rather seriously that torture in Israel isn't migrating to Jews, once you unloose that sort of thing it has a way of making a place for itself everywhere. You can't strip away human rights in one area and expect that somehow they'll stay intact elsewhere. Which is yet another reason why I fear for my own country.
As far as the Haredim, and other examples of officially sanctioned Judaism, go I will freely admit that as a politically aware atheist I get very jumpy about church/state issues. Which is why I really don't like the idea of "a Jewish state" at all; not that I *particularly* oppose Jewish states, I simply oppose any religious state. All you have to do is look at Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim nation and you can see the sort of evil that religious states entail. I see no reason to believe that there is something special about Judaism that makes it immune to the problems of religious statehood. It failed in Europe, it failed in Asia, it is failing spectacularly in the modern middle east, it will fail in Israel.
The problem is that fundamentalists are generally respected by their moderate religious counterparts. This is quite true in America, the nuts like Pat Robertson are regarded as nuts, but simultaneously looked up to because of the intensity of their belief. Their religious faith is seen as more pure, more intense, and therefore excuses any number of shortcomings. If a random gang of secular thugs had been attacking women on the Jerusalem buses they'd have been captured, tried, and imprisoned. Since it was Haredim many of the man on the street quotes from the various news articles I read about the incidents went out of their way to put the blame on the women, to excuse both the Haredim for their actions and the police for not making arrests, etc. In other words it was apparently perceived by Joe Israeli as a problem caused by the women, not by the Haredim who attacked them.
To me that, the attitude of Joe Israeli, indicates a much deeper problem than a few thuggish Haredim. One has only to look at the history of Afghanistan and Iraq to see how theocracy has a way of creeping out of the woodwork and taking a nation by surprise. Afghanistan used to be a fairly modern nation, as recently as the 1960's women walked the streets of Kabul unveiled, even in miniskirts, they were educated, etc. Forty years later look at the place. Iraq, similarly, used to be semi-secular, women were treated almost like human beings, and in post-Bush Iraq we see that women are routinely assaulted, and sometimes killed, because (like the women on the Jerusalem buses) they weren't "modest" enough for the religious nuts.
I'm not an Israel expert, but I am a historian, and history shows over and over that you can't mix religion and government "a little". Israel may not, now, be a theocracy but it is coming unless the religious nuts are squashed and a secular Israel is founded. You argue that they'd be crazy to take over, that they depend on the secular Jews for a working economy, and you are doubtless correct, I'm sure you know more about Israel than I do. But look to the other places infested with officially sanctioned religious nuts, they *DID* destroy the economies of their nations to indulge their religious nuttery. The standard of living in Afghanistan has plummeted since the 1960's, they're all but stone age in many places now, and all its done is make the religious nuts even more insanely strict and powerful.
[1] Can't find the cite, but I remember one of the Abu Gharib guards saying something to the effect of "as a human I thought it was horrible, but as a prison guard I loved it!"
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Oh yeah, cause the only country that ever is talked badly about by anyone is Israel. Well, I guess the next time I give shit to America, I'll be thinking of the Jews that live there, so it makes it easier for me. Geez, sometimes I wish I were a Jew, so I could play the antisemitic win argument card.
"every other nation in the region has a free pass to do anything they want without anyone even looking in their direction"
Free pass? Israel is quietly the most prolific violator of UN resolutions, violating more than all other Middle Eastern nations combined. There are many other UN resolutions which the US vetoed on Israel's behalf.
Free pass indeed.
Oh, and Iraq didn't get to do what it pleased. It tried trading oil in Euros and that got it a set of trumped up WMD accusations and an invasion. Iran doesn't seem to be free of criticism either.
Cut it out with the Jewish victim complex, the rest of the world is tired of it. Criticism of Israel != antisemitism. I am a Muslim. I am a vehement critic of Israel's politics. I am also friends with many Jewish people, who I find to be very warm, friendly and pleasant people. In fact, many of my Jewish friends' biggest problem with Israel is that they carry out their politics in the name of Judaism.
I hate printers.
"The comparison isn't apt."
Perhaps.
"You have to be a hardcore holocaust denier to claim that the Nazis' genocidal campaign comes close to the tiny regional conflict between Israel and Palestine."
You'd also have to be a geopolitical novice to not realize that, from a geopolitical point of view, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is perhaps the most important conflict currently occurring.
"You have to be incredibly ignorant (or incredibly biased) to claim that human rights in Israel are as bad as they were in Nazi Germany."
Well that depends on whose human rights you are talking about.
I hate printers.
But they have the same bureaucratic effect: reducing the person to a number.
This is a non-issue. Every Israeli citizen already has a unique national ID number.
Oh really?
I hate printers.
You'd also have to be a geopolitical novice to not realize that, from a geopolitical point of view, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is perhaps the most important conflict currently occurring.
It is disproportionally important, but so what?
Well that depends on whose human rights you are talking about.
No it doesn't. Even convicted terrorists get much better treatment in Israel than any given Jew in Nazi Germany.
The rubble that was the city of Beirut disagrees with you.
I hate printers.
(alt. account)
This is an argument I never made, so I don't know what your point is supposed to be.
This is just an anti-Israel/Jewish/America copypasta. It's best to ignore it. Remarkably, it's one of the few times I've ever seen copypasta actually relevant to the topic at hand in /.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Once upon a time "anti-semite" was a label for someone who hated Jews.
It has become a label for someone a Jewish person hates.
I wish I had mod points, this is one of the most insightful comments I've seen on /. ever.
If patriotism is racist, is racism patriotic?
(alt. account)
Really.
Read article 12 again. It's quite plain to see that this is an infringement on this basic human right.
Then read article 30.
This will stop you from being confused.
The UN is dedicated to enacting resolutions against Israel?
Huh?
Victim complex, anyone?
I hate printers.
I'm not at all anti-semitic, but I don't believe for one minute that powerful Jews won't oppress less powerful Jews. The Nazi state was overall an oppressive state, not only to the Jews. The methods they used ought to be well noted by all people who desire to live in political freedom, regardless of whether or not genocide is likely to be an aspect of the threatened oppression. The lessons we can learn from what happened are not only about Jews and not only about genocide. And no, I'm not a leftist.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Dude, it's not the Israeli Jews who will suffer here. It's the indigenous population. The Palestinians.
WTF? Go get a date on that wailing wall, then come back with who are the colonists and who are indigenous. You'd need to have no knowledge of history at all to claim that Israel is a colonist state of Jews invading someone else's homeland, unless you're going to claim that everyone in the world who is not living where there ancestors where 3000+ years ago is not in their homeland.
Yes, I'm aware that Palestinians have been there for some time, it's a difficult situation.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
OK, I'm just going to clear up one last issue for you. Zionism, the ideology behind Israel, does not consider "Jewish State" to mean "State of the Jewish religion". It means "State of the Jewish people". In Hebrew, these two concepts actually have separate terms to denote them: "Am Yisrael" means the Jewish people and "Yehudut" means the Jewish religion. The Jewish State is a state of the Jewish religion, and if the voters of Israel so desired it the religious courts would be eliminated utterly and completely.
Of all the nations in the world you might hope would be wary of pervasive monitoring, you'd think one that bills itself as a "jewish state" would be it.
Unfortunately the Israeli philosophy seems to be that it's not a problem as long as the right people are doing it. Which is true, it just ignores the fact that the right people never stick around forever.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
Dude, it's not the Israeli Jews who will suffer here. It's the indigenous population. The Palestinians.
The Palestinians are not the indigenous population - the Jews were there long before them. The Arabs arrived after Mohamed united the Arab tribes (around 700 CE) in what is now called Saudi Arabia. The Arabs arrived by force. They conquered, raped, pillaged and looted. It is the Arabs who are the colonial power. The Arabs are not native to Israel (or Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria...).
The Jews are indigenous. You don't think they chose Israel at random, do you?
You got moded flamebait cause you posted flamebait.
I have repeatedly been modded down by right wingers here, but I dont whine about it, get over it and grow up.
It's quite clear that this only forbids arbitrary interference with privacy. It does not forbid justified, reasonable interference with privacy. Not that the law in question is necessarily justified or reasonable, but that is a matter for debate (note that 'debate' need not include sweeping statements and insulting remarks).
Oh, and article 30 doesn't seem remotely relevant, but I'll paste it here anyway so that others can judge for themselves:
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
To quote the P:
Oh wait, this is Slashdot, the home of rabid antisemitism
I don't see a lot of antisemitism here. I see a lot of outrage and disgust at the injustices that go on in that part of the world, and at the Western nations blindly supporting the aggressor.
I think the reason is because the people there went directly from being oppressed to doing the opressing. They should know better.
You also have to conveniently forget their conflicts with Lebanon, Egypt, etc though. The Israeli/Palestine conflict involves much more than just Isarael -vs- the Palestinian people.
Free pass? Israel is quietly the most prolific violator of UN resolutions, violating more than all other Middle Eastern nations combined.
That is because the large number of Arab/Muslim nations at the UN vote down any criticism of any Middle Eastern nation aside from Israel.
You seem to not know that there are many kinds of UN resolutions. The resolutions that Israel violates are General Assembly resolutions (and other minor bodies). In international law, these resolutions are equivalent of library fines (ie meaningless). The large number of Arab/Muslim dictatorships would vote that the world was flat if there was some way they could blame Israel for it.
The resolutions that matter are Security Council resolutions. These are the resolutions that can authorize the use of force (such as expelling Iraq from Kuwait).
There are many other UN resolutions which the US vetoed on Israel's behalf.
Vetoes only apply at the Security Council. You are also ignoring the many Security Council resolutions vetoed by the Russians & Chinese on behalf of their Arab/Muslim client states.
Oh, and Iraq didn't get to do what it pleased. It tried trading oil in Euros and that got it a set of trumped up WMD accusations and an invasion.
The UN Security Council passed a resolution authorizing the use of force (see above), which means not only the tacit approval of USA, UK, France, Russia & China, but a majority of the Security Council (which has 10 other rotating members).
Iran doesn't seem to be free of criticism either.
As a sovereign nation, Iran signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and agreed to its terms. Iran didn't have to do that. Having signed, Iran has deliberately, repeatedly violated the NPT. Why would a country do that? There is only one reason: to build a nuclear bomb. Violating the NPT can have very serious consequences (see Security Council resolutions, above).
You might respond that Israel has a number of nuclear bombs. However, Israel (and many other nations) never signed the NPT and is not bound by it.
Don't get me started on human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The entire country is a shithole on so many levels.
Criticism of Israel != antisemitism. I am a Muslim. I am a vehement critic of Israel's politics. I am also friends with many Jewish people, who I find to be very warm, friendly and pleasant people.
While it is possible to criticize the policies of Israel without being antisemitic (and you might be one of these people), the vast majority of the critics of Israel criticize Israel because they hate jews.
Here's an example. A black man is driving 10 mph over the speed limit, gets pulled over by a cop, and is given a ticket. Is this a racist act? The driver was speeding - doesn't sound racist to me. However, day after day, this cop only pulls over black drivers to give them speeding tickets. The cop ignores white drivers who travel 50 or 100 mph over the speed limit.
Any reasonable person would say the cop is not actually concerned about speeding or traffic safety, and is only using that as an excuse to cover up his hatred of black people.
Much like many critics of Israel. Some people criticize Israel for its policies towards the Palestinians. But if these critics are genuinely concerned about human rights and the plight of the Palestinians, you would expect the critics would also criticize countries like Lebanon or Kuwait, who treat Palestinians far far worse, not to mention far worse abuses around the world. And yet (almost all) the critics of Israel are silent.
In fact, many of my Jewish friends' biggest problem with Israel is that they carry out their politics in the name of Judaism.
So, how do you feel about those who carry out politics in the name of Islam? How do you feel about those who carry out violence in the name of Islam?
Who would've thought that a quote from a Batman movie would apply to something like this?
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain."
How many righteous people stay as such when they're given power for a long enough period of time?
Learn something new.
Like these ones?
Research this, you'll find the number of security council resolutions vetoed by the US on behalf of Israel vastly outnumbers the number of vetos by other nations (and by vastly, we're talking something like 100 for the US, 2 for Russia).
Sorry, no cheese for you. Saying that Iran is in violation of the NPT is like saying Iraq had WMDs. Sorry, the world doesn't believe the BS spewed by the US and Israeli intelligence fabrication services any more.
Totally untrue. Incidentally, if the entire world hates Jews, does that reflect a problem with the entire world, or with the way the Jews interact with the entire world?
Straw man, totally irrelevant and inapplicable analogy. Are you saying that the world is only critical of Israel? Please point me to some evidence that the mass media is critical of Israel and forgiving of everyone else. And I mean examples from Fox, CNN, BBC etc, not some niche market circular from your local mosque.
I disagree with them, and I find it interesting that it was YOU that drew an analogy between terrorists and the state of Israel.
I hate printers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Council.27s_position_on_Israel
I remind you that this is the same organization that has/had/will have members such as Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China. The council's previous incarnation had equally shitty members. This so-called human rights council also proposed (and possibly passed, I forget) a resolution against freedom of speech... sorry, I mean against "defamation of religions," which of course means "defamation of Islam." Pakistan introduced the resolution, and they're of course members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, which shouldn't have any business going anywhere near anything related to human rights.
Nobody told me I'm Jewish. I'd better ask my mother about this, she has a lot of explaining to do.
(alt. account)
Really? Care to point out where I posted a flamebait? You can't, because I never posted one.
I'm not the one who abuses the moderating system for ideological purposes, so I'm hardly the one who needs to grow up.
And of course, they are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. Although I do see your point, Mr Strawman.
I hate printers.
Murdering a bunch of civilians is your solution?
Ever looked up the definition of terrorism?
How the hell is anything supposed to get resolved if there is no forum for discussion with your enemy? A forum with fairness and equality where the only thing that matters is justice would be nice though. Not this thing we have now where certain members have unfair advantages, and aren't bound to adhere to any decisions.
Why do you need a human rights council for simply talking? You don't, and that's now what the council is about.
Is that a serious question? Or did you just not think about it before you asked it?
Good old neo-conservatives... mandatory cataloging of people's biometrics is not an interference with privacy at all.
Excuse me while I laugh my arse off.
Any mandatory gathering of information on citizens is a interference with one's privacy. Don't even bother responding with the "if you haven't done anything wrong then why worry".
As for article 30, you are doing exactly what article 30 states you are NOT to do with the human rights charter. Your understanding of human rights leaves a lot to be desired, in fact, I'd go so far as to say you're lack of knowledge on the subject is leading you to portray yourself as a fool. I hope you enjoy your neo-conservatism for all it's worth - nothing.
Florida's population is about 4% Jewish if memory serves. Just because most dollars in Florida are Jewish... ;)
Yes, it's a serious question. Why do you need a council, with specifically selected members, to discuss human rights? If you want to talk to China about its human rights situation, you do not need a fucking council for it.
The UN "Human Rights" Council is meant to address human rights violations. Its members are supposed to combat human rights violations, which quickly turns into a joke when you look at the list of members. "Members elected to the Council shall uphold the highest standards in the promotion and protection of human rights" is what the establishing resolution of the council says.
The degree of ignorance in this thread is ridiculously, though unsurprisingly, high. The Big Bad Jews did not swoop into the Glorious and Peaceful Nation of Palestine en masse in 1948, slaughter the poor innocent indigenous Palestinian population, force the survivors to live in refugee camps and ruin their lives for three generations. Okay?
I can't even be bothered to lay it all out here because anyone who wants to be against Israel will accuse me of bias, but suffice it to say that before 1967 nobody had ever heard of "Palestinians" -- the vast majority of Arabs living on that land were those (or descendants of those) who emigrated there from surrounding Arab countries starting in the late 19th Century when the influx of Jewish immigrants inspired by Zionism or fleeing persecution, and later spurred on by the Balfour Declaration, were making the place livable again for the first time in two thousand years and creating a growing economy. The Arabs living in "Palestine" were actually OPPOSED to the very idea of any sovereign Arab state there, they considered the whole thing part of Syria. The Jews didn't steal the land, either. They BOUGHT it. Mostly from absentee Arab landowners, and mostly at exorbitant prices. The Palestinians are not aborigines, okay? They're just better at propaganda.
That's just the beginning. Mod me down if you want, but it's the truth. The Palestinians have suffered terribly over the last 60 years, no doubt about that, but not because of Israel -- because of the Arab governments who have always used the Palestinians as a political football to score points in the propaganda war against Israel by intentionally keeping them living in squalor (and check out how nicely the Arab countries treat the Palestinians living within their borders; every single one of them has been WAY worse in their treatment of Palestinians than Israel has -- even Jordan killed more Palestinians in ONE WEEK in 1970 than Israel has in 60 years), and because of their own incompetent and grossly corrupt leadership that has never failed to incite violence against Jews (not even against Israelis -- there were numerous massacres against Jews by Arabs even before the end of the British Mandate), when if they had EVER tried ANYTHING except violence at any point in the past century to get what they want (whatever the hell that is), they would have had it for a very long time by now.
There is not and has never been any tit-for-tat "cycle of violence." There's a line that goes: if the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons there would be no more Israel.
Don't swallow the press.
</frustrated rant>
Well, I've done my best to remain civil, but I see there's not much point. I have attempted to set out my position dispassionately and logically. Rather than respond in like fashion, you chose to make broad, sweeping pronouncements and to insult me personally.
Good day to you. I have no desire to carry on this conversation.
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
Troll? The parent poster claimed that Jews are colonists and the Palestinians are the indigenous population. This is a blatant lie, the Jews have been there also for thousands of years. Whatever you think of Israeli politics, characterizing the (re)establishment of the state of Israel as an foreign colonisation is such inflammatory bullshit that it has to be called out. If that's trolling, expect more of it from me.
If I have to tolerate such blatant lying to keep my karma, then karma be damned.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
I don't think the Middle East even *has* an indigenous population, to be honest. There's been so much back and forthing over the millenia...
I mean, if the biblical account has historical truth at the core, it couldn't be more clear that the Jewish arrival in the "Promised Land" was nothing less than a military conquest.
Personally I don't have a lot of respect for "native population" arguments, maybe because I'm a white Australian. To me they seem inherently racist, since they're saying that someone deserves special rights based on their ancestry that will never, and can never, be extended to anyone whose ancestry does not meet the requirement.
I acknowledge that, for instance, the history of indigenous Australians goes back tens of thousands of years before the arrival of my ancestors; but the actual indigenous Australians who are alive *now* are no more or less Australian than any other inhabitant of the country. How many generations does a line of descent need to live in a place for them to be natives? Are people of Norman descent considered English, or is that reserved for descendants of Angles and Saxons only? Is a third-generation Latino-American person less American than a fifth-generation African-American or an umpteenth generation descendant of a Pilgrim?
I should also mention that I'm looking for a girlfriend.
hemi
Can't you just imagine who would love have a biometric list of all Jews? The first step in exterminating a whole people would be to get a list of them all. (note: I am not trying to sound anti-Semitic; I didn't create this situation...) This is just weird. Are all national ID systems going to result in such absurdities? Britain has show absolute daftness in handling the overabundance of data they already have; and they pretend its reasonable to want more.
Would a survivor of a Nazi concentration camp accept biometrics or ICT
implants? I guess the answer is "no". All inmates of Nazi concentration
camps were tattooed. Of course, compared with current sophisticated ICT
technology that is a quite primitive way to identify persons - but,
unfortunately, it worked perfectly sixty years ago. A tattoo hardly can be
removed; ICT implants are quite difficult to remove; biometrics cannot be
removed at all without causing severe harm - of course you can throw
away your eyes as shown in the motion picture "Minority Report", but that
is no real option. The possibility of identification anyone anytime
everywhere may be no problem in a free society and a state ruled by the
law. And of course, don't get me wrong here, those who currently
promote ICT implants and biometrics for identification purposes are not
Nazis. However, we all know that societies and states can change
completely and rapidly. Therefore, we should try not to willingly provide
means to the state and its agents that make omnipresent control and
suppression possible.
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
So attack on WTC was ok, as both the civilians in the towers and the planes weere part of the war machine? Please, remember your statement before bemoaning some dead iraqi or palestinian civlians next time.
You also have to conveniently forget their conflicts with Lebanon, Egypt, etc though. The Israeli/Palestine conflict involves much more than just Isarael -vs- the Palestinian people.
OK, let me correct myself.
More people have died as a result of the current Iraq war than in the whole Israeli/Arab conflict since 1948.
Roughly two to ten times more, according to Wikipedia.
Well, yes, but as you may have noticed they *don't* desire it. Which has some rather unpleasant implications, no?
More to the point, I'm aware of the argument that there is a Very Important distinction between the religion of Judaism, and the concept of Jewish people. It doesn't work, from my POV, because the immigration laws of Israel demonstrate that, for Israel, it is the religious component that is the more important one. The marriage laws simply drive the point home.
Again, I'm simply arguing that you can't mix religion and government "just a little" and expect to get good results. Any mixing, whatsoever, even if it's done with the excuse that it isn't really religion, its tribal identity, will inevitably and inexorably result in theocracy.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
I think the reason is because the people there went directly from being oppressed to doing the opressing. They should know better.
I seriously doubt that. If only because many people who compare Israel to the Nazis are also holocaust deniers (I'm talking about Arab countries/Iran, where "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is still a bestseller).
To be honest, I think the actual reason is actually pretty complex. For example, I wrote a paper about anti-Israeli cartoons in the Soviet Union, and I discovered that the Soviets probably invented that whole Israelis=Nazis idea, back in the 1960s. In fact, while constantly describing Israelis as Nazis, they stopped using Nazi symbolism (swastikas etc.) to describe actual, historical Nazis, describing them as simply stereotypical Germans (lederhosen, iron crosses). The Soviets' reasons were pretty complex, ranging from the attempt to cast US/Israel as the new "national enemy" (you have to remember that the Nazis are remembered as bitter enemies in Russia), to the obnoxious use of traditional antisemitic feelings and symbolism, and of course, there was also the implicit holocaust denial (official Russian sources never mentioned that the Jews had any special connection to the holocaust. the offical claim was that "Russian, Polish, and others" died in the camps).
As for the adoption of this demagoguery by some supposedly free-thinking people, I can't say. Maybe it makes them feel better about their own, often deeply antisemtic past, maybe it makes a good story, and maybe it's just a "big lie" phenomenon. I don't know.
What I can say is that holding people to a much higher standard just because they were oppressed/massacred just 60 years ago makes no sense, and if that's the case, it's applied only to the Jews (look no further than the elaborate excuses we make for the victims of European colonization).
To quote the P [slashdot.org]:
Oh wait, this is Slashdot, the home of rabid antisemitism
I don't see a lot of antisemitism here. I see a lot of outrage and disgust at the injustices that go on in that part of the world, and at the Western nations blindly supporting the aggressor.
Since the GP was only talking about the Jews, never actually mentioning Israelis, the parent post's claim is much more logical than your own.
What do you mean by "slaughter of the Palestinans"? Perhaps you mean the Terrible Massacre In Jenin That Never Happened?
The rubble that was the city of Beirut disagrees with you.
You mean, the rubble that was the Hizbollah-built Dakhie neighborhood, that's only a small part of Beirut. Oh wait, you mean you didn't know that all of these gruesome photos come from a small part of the city? Tsk tsk.
In any case, what the hell does it has to do with human rights in Israel or the fact that the Israeli/Arab conflict is blown out of proportion?
"every other nation in the region has a free pass to do anything they want without anyone even looking in their direction"
Free pass? Israel is quietly the most prolific violator of UN resolutions, violating more than all other Middle Eastern nations combined.
Ahm. You do realize that you're just confirming the parent post's claim?
I'm pretty sure that it's possible to just glue new fingerprints on your fingers before showing up for the fingerprinting, although doing it in a way which would not be obvious looks quite a bit more difficult.
Yeah, maybe it should be a free for all, with lots of shouting and violence.
The same would be said of the US and it's population.
Okay, let me correct myself.
You have to assume that the current Iraq war isn't just an extension of this same stupid conflict, and that people are starting to forget what they are even fighting about anymore.
There is no excuse. It's exactly the same thing. Except for the religion.
You also occasionally see posts on here about "Niggers" and "Frosty Piss". There's a lot of stupid things said in an open forum. You don't blame the forum though.
A number does not identify a physical person. A tattoo code does. A photo/name combination does. A lonely number identifies nothing :)
There is no excuse. It's exactly the same thing. Except for the religion.
I'm not sure what you mean... care to explain?
In any case, I've often heard the the problems in Africa/Middle East are caused by the decades of European colonization, and I've never heard anyone saying that Africans/Arabs should be held to a higher moral standard than everybody else (because they are victims of oppression, and should know better, etc.).
You have to assume that the current Iraq war isn't just an extension of this same stupid conflict
You mean the Iraq war is part of the Israeli/Arab conflict? That's the first time I've heard of that bizarre idea.
and that people are starting to forget what they are even fighting about anymore.
What do you mean? Are you talking about Israel/Arabs or the Iraq war, or...? And in any case, so what?
You also occasionally see posts on here about "Niggers" and "Frosty Piss". There's a lot of stupid things said in an open forum. You don't blame the forum though.
True, but irrelevant.
A person who calls people "niggers" is a racist fuck or an asshole, who likes to use racist language to annoy people. You don't start making excuses for him, saying that he was only "criticizing the politics of black separatists".
But picking apart the semantics of a historical quote, and then using that to imply that the man agrees with you -- that just makes you look stupid. Honestly, do you think any of the Founding Fathers would've consented to biometrics, when they literally got up in arms over a tea tax?
You'd better believe it. They'd have been all for biometrics as long it was something in there control. The entire tax revolt thing was against non-domestic taxes being imposed on the US. Which made sense. Would you want to be paying taxes imposed by the government of China or India? Not likely if you could avoid/prevent it. Now if it was our idea to impose taxes on cargo, then you'd better believe that they'd have mostly been for a tea tax. It was the difference of the tax being imposed rather than voted on.
A number does not identify a physical person. A tattoo code does. A photo/name combination does. A lonely number identifies nothing :)
Ah... Maybe, but what's your point? Israelis have a national ID, that includes a photo, a name, and all kinds of other details, including a unique ID number.
It seemed to me that the GP was mostly upset by the "ID number" aspect, so I pointed out that it already exists...
I mean really.. Do you really believe that saying that Israel behaves badly toward its neighbours and even its own citizens means you are prejudiced or hostile toward Jews?
Give it up.
You know normally, I'd agree with you. I'm thinking though that they may have a point. Slashdot is anti-religion though. Slashdot is anti-all religion though. I think it's really far more anti-Christian. The entire anti-Jewish thing only comes up if Israel or Nazism is ever mentioned in a topic. Slashdot is also anti-all/most governments as well. I'd say that slashdot generally loves to pick on all religious based governments and tends to lump Israel with all the middle east as being a mostly religious state of just a different religion, which spawns conflict. Slashdot also tends to pick on all governments so it wouldn't matter what government it was; slashdot would generally be against it.
You know I'm back with agreeing with you. We are pretty much equal on whom we pick on.
There's no need to quote a movie. Churchill put it much more eloquently, not to mention shorter.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
I'm sick of politics being about 'opinions'. Politics *isn't* about opinions. It's about reality.
Welcome to Earth. Seeing as you are new here don't upset the natives, or they will hurt you. What ever you do stay out of all discussions of religion and politics. Neither is about reality and all are just based on the opinions of the natives, which are difficult/impossible to understand.
If you can't handle that, it's advised for you to return home ASAP before a native injures you for insulting either their religion or government.
Europeans have a history of displacing people violently and unfairly. Brittain allowed this to happen to Palestine, and I don't see much difference between this and the conquest of North America, Australia, etc.
It's Judaism instead of Christianity that drives these "settlers". It's basically the same religion though, which tells them they are superior to non-jews, and that God loves them more.
So you're saying that calling someone a jew is the same as calling someone a nigger?
Uhm, OK?
I mean, you're completely wrong - Israel is not just a colony like the US or Australia, it's the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and the only country they have (unlike colonists, by the very definition of the word). But that's not the point.
I was talking about the victims of colonization. You know, countries that were, at some point, European colonies?
No, but saying that Jews are the same as Nazis is very much like calling someone a "nigger".
Well I can't speak for the others here, but I'm anti-anyone-who-abuses-power. That covers most religions and authoritative bodies.
If only a democracy would happen somewhere.
Here we go with the God promised us this land stuff. I find this part entertaining.
What if you say Nazis and the Jewish state have similar means to achieve their goals, and share a view that they are superior to other groups?
But cards are so easy to forge or misplace. Now if they would just require a tattoo'ed number on the left arm of each Israeli citizen, that would make things much easier.
Up until the late 40's early 50's it was self-evident that when you said "Palestinian" you were talking about a Jew.
The entire concept of an Arab Palestinian Nation is pure historical revisionism.
Or to make it simple:
What dates did the independent nation of Palestine exist? What was it's Capital? What was it's currency? What was it's language? What was it's Flag? Etc..
You can't answer those questions because no such country ever existed.
The Jews are the indigenous population.
Woopty Doo Basil, what does it all mean?!
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
you might wanna check your sig again, i dont think the expression comes from Jean D'arc
Contemplate the marvel that is existence, and rejoice that you are able to do so.
Actually, the Jews paid premium prices for that land. You'd have to look it up, but I remember that Jews were paying the equivalent of the price of fertile farm land in Ohio for swamp and arid desert plots in the Holy Land as it was called by most people back then. Something like $1000 an acre in 1910 dollars!
Woopty Doo Basil, what does it all mean?!
Yes, that's exactly what I said. /facepalm
When condescending the grandparent post you failed to specify what Churchill quote you was referring to. Was it this one?
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
You have to be a hardcore holocaust denier to claim that the Nazis' genocidal campaign comes close to the tiny regional conflict between Israel and Palestine
Uh, no. You have a real misunderstanding of cause and effect. Just because you think you found that a bunch of deniers in russia also made the comparison does not mean deniers are the only people to come up with the comparison. You've basically just done the same thing as say, "you have to be a hardcore anti-semite to criticize israeli policies."
You have to be incredibly ignorant (or incredibly biased) to claim that human rights in Israel are as bad as they were in Nazi Germany.
It is not a one-dimensional comparison. Just because the level is not the same, does not mean there are not similarities in kind.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Fair enough.
I think such a statement really requires some evidence. Israel is guilty of a large number of sins and it needs no prejudice on the part of anyone to criticise the state. Indeed there are large numbers of jewish people alone who are highly critical of the Israeli government and we can presume that most of these are not anti-semitic. If I were to say that Israel has bilked the american tax payer of over $15billion dollars in [i]military[/i] aid, then that's something you can verify (and you can verify it, btw). That statement exists independent of any value system.
If you were familiar with my writing you would see that I am highly critical of human rights abuses all over the world. But Israel is guilty of a lot and made more sickening because it is such a rich and powerful country.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
The one which talks about righteous people not remaining so when they're given power for a long period of time. Specifically:
Power corrupts.
Or more completely:
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This may be more properly attributed to Lord Acton, but his version was slightly more wordy.
As far as I can tell your proposed quote has nothing to do with people turning bad after being given power.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/47632
Read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe (an Israeli jew... mentionning it so that you can't dismiss him as a muslim, anti-semite, etc)
Just so you know, Ilan Pappe freely admits that he just makes shit up to support his objective.
If you want to cite Israeli sources and not sound like you're on an agenda, you might cite someone more mainstream.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Uh, no. You have a real misunderstanding of cause and effect
No, you didn't understand what I meant. When you're comparing Israelis and Nazis, you're not only demonizing Israel, but also trivializing the Nazi atrocities. The only way you can seriously claim that the two are comparable, you either have to claim that Israelis systematically killed millions of people because of their ethnicity (and then you'd have to provide some sort of proof for that crazy claim), or, more likely, you claim that the Nazis weren't that bad - and that's "hardcore holocaust denial".
It is not a one-dimensional comparison. Just because the level is not the same, does not mean there are not similarities in kind.
No, it's a ludicrous comparison. You might as well say that the person who flipped you off on the highway was like the Nazis. The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race. Israel killed.. how many? Thousands? Tens of thousands, since 1948? And that was while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it.
There are lots of more appropriate analogies - China, Russia, even the US, who killed more people in the current war than Israel killed since its inception. Actually, even compared to much smaller regional conflicts, the Israeli/Palestinian is civilized (you don't see people raping girls and then shooting them in the head, like, say, in Iraq), bloodless conflict.
And yet, the moment you say "Israel" you heard people shouting "Nazis!".
As an objective analogy, it's bullshit. As an incredibly offensive statement... well, it works. But it's strange that people see that meme as anything but a lame troll.
It is not a one-dimensional comparison. Just because the level is not the same, does not mean there are not similarities in kind.
No, it's a ludicrous comparison. You might as well say that the person who flipped you off on the highway was like the Nazis. The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race. Israel killed.. how many? Thousands? Tens of thousands, since 1948? And that was while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it.
Please explain to me how your response addresses anything beyond 'the level is not the same?' I point out that numbers are not the only basis for comparison and all you do is come back with ... numbers. Do you think that was a rational response?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Here we go with the God promised us this land stuff. I find this part entertaining.
No. There's lots of archeological evidence and external sources (that is, Roman, Babylonian etc.) that prove that the Jews lived in what we now call "Israel". To claim that religion is the only reason Jews think Israel is their ancestral homeland is to show your deep ignorance.
But even if we ignore that part - who do you think gets to decide where the Jewish ancestral homeland is, other than the Jews? And it's not as if the Jews claim the whole world to be their birthright. They only want a tiny piece of desert, without any oil or other precious natural resources, where they could exercise their natural right of self-determination.
The document describes things like increased GNP, decreased infant mortality, increased investment, and other increases in standard of living from 1967 until 1984.
In 1987 everything changed. That was the beginning of the first intifada. The wiki article on the 1st intifada tells a story of israeli brutality that does not match with the UN document on living conditions in the occupied terrotories.
What was the real root cause of the intifada? Could part of it be the corruption of the leaders of the PLO, like Arafat, who was filling swiss bank accounts with aid money that were supposed to go to the people he was supposed to represent?
I agree with above posters that the cycle of retaliation has to end. The only way it can end is with education to end the mutual hatred.
As well, there are many jews and non-jews inside and outside israel who are critical of israeli policy. Being critical certainly doesn't make one an anti-semite. But the tone of some of the posts in this discussion belie an undercurrent of prejudice.
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Saying that Israel did anything remotely approaching the Holocaust is nothing more than a modern blood libel.
This UN document describes how after the occupation of the west bank in 1967, the standard of living increased for the Palestinians living there.
The document describes things like increased GNP, decreased infant mortality, increased investment, and other increases in standard of living from 1967 until 1984.
Well that document is immediately suspect due to the source - which wasn't the UN. Maybe it is all true, or maybe it just PR telling only the half of the story which legitimizes the occupation. It certainly does not start out well, citing misleading statistics by saying, "GNP increased 3-fold (Israel's GNP Increased only 1.4-fold in the same period)" -- which ignores the difference in absolute values, numbers which a quick text search of the rest of the document does not yield. A GNP increase of 3x during the period of occupation by a neighbor with a GNP at least 40x times greater which is also 10x richer on a per-person basis is probably inevitable. How much better would they have done without the occupation but still with the closest neighbor having so much wealth?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Then I'd say you are incapable of a proper discussion. I have no hatred toward jews or any other group. I have hatred toward aggression and injustice.
How much better would they have done without the occupation but still with the closest neighbor having so much wealth?
I think to answer that question you just have to look at the lives of the majority of the population living in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, or Lebanon.
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Moderation -2
100% Flamebait
Mention that Israel's neocon government is betraying the memory of Holocaust victims and survivors, and TrollMods will suppress you. Never forget.
--
make install -not war
"Proper discussion", eh? So, I guess you think "antisemite" is way too harsh, and is too emotionally loaded to be a legitimate claim against you?
Guess what, the differences between you and "actual" antisemites is much smaller than between Israel and the Nazis, and the term "antisemite" is much less loaded than "Nazi".
I hope you understand my point now.
So, you do think that the theoretical person who flipped you off on the highway to be in any way comparable to the Nazis? I mean, he's an asshole who doesn't mind hurting people with his rude gestures, the Nazis were assholes who didn't mind hurting people with their gas chambers and submachine guns, it's just a difference of "level", right?
Well, guess what, you can't lose all perspective and then still rationally compare anything. Otherwise, everything is kinda like everything else, and the act of comparing anything is meaningless.
That especially true for the Nazis, who are not known for "killing people", but for killing millions of people. According to your theory, you could just take any murder and say that it's "like the Holocaust". But of course, if you say it, you will look like a moron.
In any case, if you want a non-quantitative difference, notice that I said "The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race", while Israel killed people "while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it". That's an incredibly important difference, and if you ignore it, you might as well not make the analogy at all.
No it's just incorrect. To say someone hates something when they don't is wrong. It isn't wrong to say that Israel took what isn't theirs, forced people off their land & homes, and continues to do so.
No it's just incorrect. To say someone hates something when they don't is wrong.
Antisemites often claim that they "don't hate Jews" either. They just have a long list of claims, some more outrageous than others, against the Jewish people. You've already repeated one of the more famous claims - that the Jewish belief of "the chosen people" is like the Nazi Uber/Untermensch. What's even more problematic, is that you've defended someone who compared Jews to the Nazis.
Does this make you a full-fledged antisemite? I don't think so. But it does make you much closer to one than Israel is to the Nazis.
It isn't wrong to say that Israel took what isn't theirs, forced people off their land & homes, and continues to do so.
That could be said about China, Russia, the US, and just about any Western European country as well. The Nazis aren't famous for occupation and colonization - they're famous for killing millions of innocent people, simply because they didn't like their race. You might as well say that Catholic priests are SS officers because they wear black*.
* And no, I don't want to start a stupid debate about the wrongdoings of the Catholic Church
You're the one who keeps dragging this thing back to Hitler. It's a great tactic to avoid explaining the actions of Israel, to divert the subject where you are being attacked by some some Jew hater. That's not happening here as much as you try to pretend it is.
The majority Palis have the right. Sorry son, but your rambling hate-filled rant against Muslims does not convince me that the creation of a nation-state by subjugating the majority residents is a good thing.
Blar.
You're the one who keeps dragging this thing back to Hitler. It's a great tactic to avoid explaining the actions of Israel, to divert the subject where you are being attacked by some some Jew hater.
Are you serious?! You do realize that my only point was that the Israel=Nazi meme is cheap demagoguery? You're trying to divert it to some boring "settlements=baaad" debate, and you're crying because I won't play your game?
Anyway, I'm glad that we finally agree on one point: comparing Israel with the Nazis hurts serious debate by turning it into an emotionally charged troll fest ("a great tactic" indeed...)
That's not happening here as much as you try to pretend it is.
First of all, I was mostly talking about how you're defending this obnoxious practice, and not about how pervasive it is over here. And second... did you read the discussion on this page?! The thread about how Israel/Jews is just like the Nazis is huge, with all kinds of cute jokes about crescent-shaped patches for Muslims, and people like you, crawling out from their holes, crying about how the mean Jews won't let those people compare them to the Nazis.
But even if we ignore this article, I can tell you that every single English-language Internet forum I've been to* suffers from this problem. The moment somebody brings up Israel, you'll find a fucktard crying "Nazis!" in the first 20 comments. It's like Godwin's Law on steroids.
* Including, IIRC, the KDE support forums. WTF?!
Don't you realize that if the Israeli's didn't act like Nazi's this wouldn't be an issue?
It's their behaviour that makes people say that. It has nothing to do with whether people like the Jewish religion, culture, or whatever. It's your government that makes you look like the devil.
Don't you realize that if the Israeli's didn't act like Nazi's this wouldn't be an issue?
The point is, Israel doesn't act like the Nazis in any meaningful sense.
It's their behaviour that makes people say that.
No. Other countries behave much worse than Israel: China, Russia, the US, not to mention such regimes as Sudan or North Korea. And yet, Israel is the only one who is constantly compared to the Nazis.
I'm no fan of the U.S. government either, but they are the voice of reason most times when it comes to Israel. Nobody is forced to serve in the military there, they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of. They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture. Not anymore anyway.
I'm no fan of the U.S. government either
Funny how you ignored all of my other examples
Nobody is forced to serve in the military there
So the US doesn't have conscription, unlike, say, Germany, Switzerland or Finland. They have enough money for a professional army (made of the poorest members of its society). So what?
they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of.
No, they just bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan - faraway countries that pose no threat to them. And that's only in the past couple of years.
They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
First of all, the US did take a lot of land from Mexico, so your example sucks.
But the main problem is that you're forgetting how US itself was formed. Indeed, it was by kicking people off their land, while periodically massacring them. And no, they didn't have any cultural, or even religious justification for that - it was pure greed.
Not anymore anyway.
So all Israel has to do is wait for a century or so, and everything will be forgotten and forgiven. Cool.
(note: I don't think that would actually work in Israel's case).
Of course, because China, Sudan and North Korea would be more likely to do the kinds of things that Israel does. I'm not so sure about Russia.
They had enough money left over from their military to buy Israel one too. I'm not sure the military in the countries you mentioned engage in the activities that yours does. I don't think they would get away with it either.
I'll give you that one. They are also evil bastards a lot of the time. For example, they give Israel weapons and call it "humanitarian aid". How funny is that? Humanitarian aid that helps to murder humans.
Well if you're going back in history the whole continent was stolen really. Brutally and violently. This is supposed to excuse what Israel does today? They did it, so we should be able to as well?
We aren't going to make it that long at this rate. Only a matter of time before someone fires the first nuke, and Israel is just stupid enough to return fire.
Of course, because China, Sudan and North Korea would be more likely to do the kinds of things that Israel does. I'm not so sure about Russia.
Of course, both China and North Korea are so much worse than Israel, it's silly to compare them to Israel (it's very logical to compare them to the Nazis, though. and yet, when you mention China, you don't automatically get an idiot shouting "Nazis" - strange, huh?). Even comparing Israel to the US is far-fetched.
As for Russia, look no further than Chechnya - much worse than anything Israel has ever done, and completely overlooked by the world. I won't even mention the Soviet-era hijinks, or Putin's anti-democratic internal policy.
I'm not sure the military in the countries you mentioned engage in the activities that yours does. I don't think they would get away with it either.
You mean defending their country from people who vowed to destroy it? You're right.
Well if you're going back in history the whole continent was stolen really.
Yup, you're completely right (and it wasn't the only continent stolen by the Europeans either). And yet none of the American countries is maligned like Israel, imagine that.
This is supposed to excuse what Israel does today? They did it, so we should be able to as well?
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel. And I proved that you're completely wrong.
It's good to put things in perspective. After all, that's the main thing you lack. When you put things in perspective, you understand that just about any Western country (and let's be honest, many Eastern and African ones as well) could be compared to the Nazis, and it would usually be a more accurate analogy. And when you see that, you start wondering why Israel, of all countries, is the one that's constantly compared to the Nazis.
You also don't see China accepting a big fat cheque to help commit their crimes. You do see many many many people condemning the actions of China. Far more often than is said about Israel.
We've covered this already. Kicking people out of their homes is not defense. Destroying Lebanon is not defense. That is aggressive behaviour.
I was? You are mistaken. I do not care which one of you war pigs is worse. They support you, so they are at least as bad as you are.
China foes in House deploy Nazi analog
Harry Wu Exposes China's Nazi-like Genocide
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Just thought you might like to know that you aren't the only Nazis around.
You do see many many many people condemning the actions of China. Far more often than is said about Israel.
You must be kidding me.
Kicking people out of their homes is not defense. Destroying Lebanon is not defense.
Kicking out people who started a war against you, and who are still seeking to destroy your country, is defense (as was the case in the independence war). Responding to aggressive behavior (kidnapping soldiers, shooting missiles at civilians) by an organization that seeks to destroy Israel is the very definition of "defense".
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel.
I was? You are mistaken.
Liar:
Nobody is forced to serve in the military there, they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of. They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
But that was like two comments ago... there's no way I'm going to notice, right?
Anyway...
I do not care which one of you war pigs is worse.
War pigs, heh? You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
They support you, so they are at least as bad as you are.
Right, killing tens of thousands of people is nothing compared to the horrible crime of supporting Israel. This really says a lot about your sense of morality.
Maybe its bad timing on your part, but especially before/during the Olympics I can't turn on the TV without something being said about how China treats people inhumanely. If your seeing something different, it's probably due to your location and your government's propaganda.
Hold on now. Nobody started a war with you. You started the war.
Liar? I said they would never get away with the things Israel does. (re: border expansion) I never said they were saints. Israel wouldn't even exist if they didn't pay your bills.
It is when Israel kills thousands of people itself, and the blind support of Israel is the number one catalyst to both of those wars.
but especially before/during the Olympics
You mean only before/during the Olympics. And of course, nobody's comparing them to the Nazis even now.
If your seeing something different, it's probably due to your location and your government's propaganda.
You do understand what you're implying, right? Somehow I doubt that the Israelis are so keen on vilifying Israel, that they completely forget about China. I wonder how that made sense in your head.
Liar? I said they would never get away with the things Israel does. (re: border expansion) I never said they were saints.
First of all, you're trying to mask an outright lie (that you never claimed that the US was any better than Israel) with a complete bullshit statement (that the US would never get away with the things Israel does), and you know, that does work to a certain extent. I really don't know where to start.
But, the US would never get away with "border expansion"? Are you high or something? You're sure that you didn't miss little stuff like the Mexican war (of course you did, you seemed not to know anything about it) or the fact that the US is currently occupying not one, but two different countries just because it can?
Israel wouldn't even exist if they didn't pay your bills.
Israel managed to exist just fine without US support for ~20 years, and against overwhelming odds. In fact, the massive aid only started as a result of the 1973 war - the US basically started paying Israel and Egypt so they won't nuke each other.
It is when Israel kills thousands of people itself
As I've mentioned before, more people died as a result of the latest Iraq war than in the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And it's only one war out of many. And unlike Israel, that's only trying to defend itself from people who wish to destroy it (HAMAS, Hizballah), the US did it more or less for no reason.
and the blind support of Israel is the number one catalyst to both of those wars
Bullshit. Why don't you blame the current violence in Georgia on Israel as well, while you're at it?
We covered this in week one. I believe this is because Jews were persecuted by Nazis, then became Nazis. If the Chinese had been persecuted by Nazis, the same would be said about them. Instead they are called "Mongrols" for obvious reasons.
No, no, no. Vilifying Israel? Why the hell would your government do that? You're the victim. The big bad Palestinians are picking on you while you steal their land meanwhile the world calls us Nazis. Why would they spend time covering news in Tibet is the question.
Right. They are worse than you are. Fine, we get that. They are fascist, you are fascist but they are worse. Would you like a trophy of some kind? The inscription could read: We are Nazis, but Americans are bigger Nazis -- Thanks for the weapons.
I believe this is because Jews were persecuted by Nazis, then became Nazis.
And I claim that this is a juvenile and offensive idea, that has very little relation to the truth, and it only taints Israel/Palestine debates and trivializes Nazi atrocities.
What's even more annoying, is people like you, who get angry when Jews object to being compared to the people who killed their parents' families.
No, no, no. Vilifying Israel?
Good, then we agree that you were on crack while you wrote that comment about "my government's propaganda".
We are Nazis, but Americans are bigger Nazis
No. As I previously said:
You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
(to be honest, the Scandinavians aren't angels either, but hell, I like Scandinavians)
Well you're emotionally attached to the situation, and unable to see things objectively. You want to cry about people calling you names, thats fine with me. I'm just pointing out why it's happening.
Angry? Object all you want, I could care less. The point of calling you a nazi is to shame you, if it upsets you that much then its obviously working.
Nope. Every country has a certain amount of propaganda. In yours, you are told over and over how you are being victimized, and you believe it. It's not something that gets decided in a back room that they are going to pull the wool over the eyes of the public. It happens naturally through media. The Americans believe they are some kind of freedom fighters. You and I have no problem seeing through those lies, but they believe it because CNN tells them to.
I have no problem with Scandinavians either. Or Israelies, or Americans. As individuals most people I have met in my life are decent and kind. It's their governments who usually make a mess of everything.
Well you're emotionally attached to the situation, and unable to see things objectively
The Nazi analogy is only used because it's emotionally charged. It makes no sense objectively.
The point of calling you a nazi is to shame you, if it upsets you that much then its obviously working.
It doesn't shame me, it offends me. Claiming that I kill Christian babies to make Matzot from their blood would have the same effect. Do you think that would be a legitimate claim as well?
Nope. Every country has a certain amount of propaganda. In yours, you are told over and over how you are being victimized, and you believe it. (etc etc)
First of all, you know absolutely nothing about Israeli media, so I don't see how you can make cute theories about it. And second, I was talking about how you implied that the Israel media hides Chinese crimes and focuses on Israeli wrongdoings, which was just odd.
Again, there are similarities. Even if there are situations outside of Israel that more closely resemble Nazism, this remains true.
I have no idea what you do with Christian babies. Religion is a terrible thing some times. So much hatred and violence comes from it, nothing would surprise me anymore.
I never claimed they hide anything. Your media spends a considerable amount of time on your various conflicts with your neighbours that the rest of the world mainly receives a brief summary of. Maybe I am exposed to more commentary on the situation in China because there is a large amount of immigration from China happening here in Canada. If you are claiming that you aren't exposed to any propaganda at all, then we must be dealing with a different interpretation of what propaganda is.
In any case, you are claiming that you are constantly bombarded with accusations of being a Nazi. I haven't seen any of that in the media or otherwise here. There is almost universal support for Israel here among our politicians. Steven Harper (our prime minister) makes a weekly speech about how wonderful Israel is, and how we will support them no matter which neighbouring country they wish to destroy. He called the destruction of Lebanon "measured and justified", when even the Americans were saying you went too far.
It is taboo to say anything bad about Israel at all among politicians. That is the propaganda that I deal with, and it disgusts me.
This also disgusts me.
Taking photographs. Imagine that, here in Israel. Who the hell does he think he is documenting our crimes?
Again, there are similarities
There are similarities between Catholic nuns and the SS - they both wear black. So what? If you try hard enough, you can connect anything with everything.
Even if there are situations outside of Israel that more closely resemble Nazism
You mean, "resemble Nazism much more closely and yet, unlike Israel, never compared to the Nazis".
There is almost universal support for Israel here among our politicians.
First of all, what made you think I was talking about Canadian politicians (of all people)?! I was obviously focusing on Internet forum posters. But, if you already mentioned it, the Israel=Nazis theme is not confined to the Internet - it's a pretty common theme in anti-Israeli protests as well. And of course, you have the Muslim world, where this analogy (as well as holocaust denial, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and other, more obvious expressions of classical antisemitism) is pretty mainstream.
I never claimed they hide anything. Your media spends a considerable amount of time on your various conflicts with your neighbours that the rest of the world mainly receives a brief summary of [...] If you are claiming that you aren't exposed to any propaganda at all, then we must be dealing with a different interpretation of what propaganda is.
Or maybe, that you don't have a clue what "propaganda" means. As someone who's familiar with actual propaganda (my parents come from the Soviet Union, and I have all kinds of Soviet books at my house), trust me, it's not the subtle bias that you seem to think it is. But then again, I wouldn't expect someone who can't see the huge difference between Israel and the Nazis to see the difference.
And by the way, there is nothing wrong or even resembling "propaganda" in giving local news more importance than foreign news. People care a lot more about stuff that might happen to them or to the people they know than about stuff that happens to foreign people. You're not scoring freedom points by treating all of the world news equally (unless, of course, you're supposed to be an international news service). You're just not giving the people the information they need.
Nothing to say about my friend who was arrested for taking pictures?
2. If that's the most appalling thing you can think of, then you're living a very sheltered life.
No excuses or anything.. Just dismissal. And you wonder why people call you Nazis.
Yeah, the guy pissed off a soldier in what is basically a war zone and got beat up. After that, the soldiers said that he was interfering with their duties so he was deported.
If your friend likes getting beat up by people who don't want to be videotaped, he doesn't have to travel that far - he can just go a little to the south and try to pull that shit on American cops* he would be thrown in jail for "assaulting a police officer" as well.
I mean, of course the soldiers who did that should be punished, but this is police brutality, not a crime against humanity.
I'm not going to explain to you why beating up a protester is not comparable to killing millions of people - you're obviously not going to understand. On the one hand, I really envy you for living a life where this kind of thing seems as atrocious and foreign as the Holocaust, but then again, I kinda pity you for not having a clue about the rest of the world.
* And, I guess, just about every other cop as well - it's just that the Americans were caught doing that
He was taking pictures of soldiers who were beating people that were protesting nonviolently, then was beaten, spat upon, arrested, and deported.
Thats fascism.
Thats fascism.
Sure it is. Just like it's genocide, child abuse and patent infringement.
To be honest, I don't see why you're complaining. Your friend paid good money in order to go to the other side of the world and taunt soldiers in a war zone. I think he's got his money's worth.
Absolutely, a good time was had by all.
Except maybe the people who lost their land, and the ones who were beaten, and tear gassed.
Oh well, it's only brown people right?
Nazi.