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How To Fix the Poor Usability of Free Software

flosofl writes "Matthew Paul Thomas has an entry on his blog called Why Free Software Has Poor Usability, And How To Improve It. While this advice is helpful and may indeed lead to improvements in many open source programs, the guidelines may be much more difficult for smaller projects. From the entry, 'Free Software has a long and healthy tradition of "show me the code." But when someone points out a usability issue, this tradition turns into "patches welcome," which is unhelpful since most designers aren't programmers. And it's not obvious how else usability specialists should help out.'" Thomas has been developing the ideas in this essay for years. The critique is comprehensive, listing 15 challenges in the way software projects, and in particular free software projects, are structured, with suggestions for improving each one.

690 comments

  1. Usability is a matter of opinion by clang_jangle · · Score: 1, Troll

    Okay, I know these are unpopular things to say, but I feel they need saying. These are just my opinions.
    (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software in question.
    (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

    Personally, I find FBSD, Debian, Slackware, and the majority of GNU software to be quite usable. Of course, I don't expect everything to be zero effort, either. Anything worth doing takes a bit of effort. Speaking of which, tried Windows lately? Now to me, that's really hard to use! But then, I don't want to learn the "Windows way" of doing everything, as I fail to see the pay off in it.

    --
    Caveat Utilitor
    1. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by the_humeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      I'm going to take issue with this. Basically you're saying if you can't do X, then your critique is useless. Just because you can't sing doesn't mean you can't critique other people's singing. Just because you don't know how to make a car doesn't mean you can't critique that horrible dashboard layout.

    2. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by cheroke · · Score: 1

      +1 The idea of free software itself contradicts our wishes to have it user friendly and error-free. You notice bug - then you fix it, not satisfied with the usability - code new interface.. etc.

    3. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jps25 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Okay, I know these are unpopular things to say, but I feel they need saying. These are just my opinions.

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing
      things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software in question.

      It seems you've never used emacs, little one.
      And no, it doesn't say more about me than the software if I find that almost all GUIs in Linux are shit and that the command line is more usable.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      "Right."
      And neither have "coders" who can't "design" something the "average" "user" "thinks" is "usable" .

    4. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by schnikies79 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bull crap. An architect doesn't build the building, the carpenter does. An electrical engineer working for the power company doesn't hang the lines, but they layout and design them.

      The same thing can go for almost any profession, software included. I don't code and no desire to code (I'm a chemist and have no interest in that part of computing), but I can tell you when the interface sucks and what could be better.

      My opinion is, people who won't accept criticism from others because "you don't code," or "you don't know what you're talking about" are nothing but elitist.

      --
      Gone!
    5. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Usability isn't supposed to be tied to the way you're used to do things, but to how intuitive it is.

      Let's take an old tired "cliché", if you will. Having to click on a button labeled "Start" to then choose "Shutdown" isn't obvious and must be learned.

      An old version of Quicktime had the volume control as a rotary dial. Yeah, that went well once translated into mouse control. That's why it was gone by the next version or so.

      Make clean interfaces with well-organized controls (keep it to a minimum, to what's required for the current task), label things properly if needed (not everyone knows how to use your programs) and don't overload the users with choices (have a "normal mode" and "expert mode", if needed).

      Other than that, use the OS's own widgets and don't force your "pretty graphics" onto your users. Slashdot's own form buttons come do mind (the Preview, Quote Parent, Options and Cancel buttons really seem out of place with the Aqua form widgets and probably with all the other OS widgets as well).

    6. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Plug · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Why should software be different from any other industry? Just because the barrier to entry is, in your opinion, lower? The people who design houses don't build them. Sure, they need a solid foundation in what can and can't be done, but architects and interior designers work to a mutually beneficial end with builders, carpenters and plumbers, etc.

    7. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing
      things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the
      software in question.

      You are a good example of the "works for me" mentality in the open source software community. "If it works for me, then it must work for anybody else, and if it doesn't, it's their fault".

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should
      work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      I'm sorry, what? Did you just say that if designers can't code, they shouldn't contribute? I thought this open source stuff was about the fact everybody could contribute to the program if they wanted, but apparently I thought wrong. Apparently only uber-geeks with a masterful command programming knowledge can work to improve open source software.

      Design is important. Not everybody wants to learn the idiosyncrasies of software; they want it to "just work". The moment everybody thinks that way is the moment open source software gets better.

    8. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by lolocaust · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (2) People who can't cook have no business eating food and complaining when it makes them puke.

      --
      Why does my post history abruptly stop? I want to laugh at the stupid things I posted as a kid.
    9. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by chinakow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You seem to confuse usable with usability. Just because something can be used, doesn't mean it is the best option. By your logic we would all be using rocks to pound nails because, "It works, you just have to think a little bit." Being intuitive means that people want to use it that is the point. Unless of course you don't want people to use your product and if that is the case, why are you publishing it publicly?

      Your second point is rather funny to me. I wonder if you would say, "If someone doesn't know how to design an engine they have no business designing the rest of the car(oblig. car reference)?" People have specialities, that is how society works now.

      Finally a red herring is irrelevant, we are talking about Linux not windows. I don't really like windows either but that is another discussion.

    10. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by wild_quinine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user.

      There's some degree of truth in that, but since most people have essentially similar minds it makes sense to assume that certain types of operation make sense to the vast majority of people. Past experience can lock people into a certain conceptual mindset, there's no denying it. But the holy grail of usability is that which most closely reflects the way in which we have evolved to think.

      All computers are essentially tools to enable us to do things we otherwise would not be capable of, or would take much longer without. The best computer systems are the ones which interface as organically as possible with that which we are capable of. It's common sense.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      That's ridiculous. If it weren't so absurd it would be offensive. Look at the credits for any major software release from the commercial realm. Let's take games, for example - in the entertainment industry, where if something is not 'usable' it is not fun, coders are outnumbered somthing like 20 to 1 by other types of developer, be they writers, artists, testers, etc. Hell, let's take the credits from GTA IV, the video game. They take HALF AN HOUR to scroll, when you complete the game. What percentage of those HUNDREDS of people do you think can code? Even to a reasonable level? Five to fifteen percent at the outside.

      When you need a job doing, you hire the person with the skills to do that job. You DON'T hire someone with the skills to do that job AND the skills to code. Sometimes that's not even desirable, and at best it's overkill.

    11. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, it isn't, and it's obvious you didn't RTFA.

      There is no valid "opinion," none, which holds that windows should appear with low-contrast text and UI elements, or that they should appear hidden behind things (the Dock, for example), or that they should default to a size too small to show their contents.

      Regardless of whether you'd like to admit it, a great deal of usability concerns are objective, and a lot of "organic" software violates a number of ground rules.

    12. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Firehed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Mod parent up. The whole source of this problem is that most programmers can't design (or follow UI guidelines), but they think they can. On the flip side, I've seen a lot of designers who can sort of code makes some really god-awful programs that look great that are less optimized than doing it by hand.

      I can't design and I know it. But I still know when someone else's design either works or fails utterly, and I'll give the designer props/shit accordingly. Typically, coders are very poor designers and designers are very poor coders. There are the rare exceptions of course, but they're off making too much money to devote time to free software (the single exception that I know of being the designer+developer of Quicksilver).

      Widely-used Free software occasionally picks up enough steam to get some people who can really design on board (read: Firefox), but by and large, Free software tends to be developer-centric, menu-driven apps that work very well if you can figure out how to use them. As a developer I often can, but I still tend to suggest people use the paid equivalent if they ask simply so they don't come back to me every hour asking how to do that next thing.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    13. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How did the architect respond to your suggestions for improvements?

    14. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by gilgongo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software in question.

      That is of course true if you are talking about design by the decree of an individual, but that is not "design" in the way most practitioners define it. The currently accepted approach is User Centred Design, which basically means that the cumulative indications of many target users are derived through various research techniques. The outcome of this research is modulated by the designer in coming up with the design, but fundamentally, the designer's own opinions are irrelevant.

      The upshot of this is that (for example) if a CLUI is found to be the way to go, then a CLUI is shall be. If it's voice-control the users need, then that's cool too. Notice I said "need" there, not "want." Here by dragons.

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    15. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jrothwell97 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I assume he was forced to respond to them, because otherwise he wouldn't have been paid.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    16. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Poromenos1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The issue is more general than that. The usability experts who can't code *can* improve usability, by telling the developers what to do.

      It's more of an issue of *just* criticising, instead of offering constructive opinions. If all you can do is say "this sucks" but not say why or how it can be improved, then I agree, you have no business in software. If, on the other hand, you can find a way to improve it, I'm sure many people will welcome your advice and implement it.

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    17. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, you can tell us that you don't like an interface, and make suggestions on what you think might make it better for you. Reality? The interface may suck - but that doesn't mean you have any idea as to why it sucks. Add to that? You're suggestions are not likely to be all that good for fixing the design problems. A non-chemist can tell you that the floor cleaning solution doesn't work for them - and that may mean the solution sucks - and they can say "It should be able to do this" - but they can't tell you the way to solve the problem, they may be wrong as to what the problem is, and they may just be, period - wrong. Is that elitist?

    18. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 1

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Oh? I should like to counter that with coders who have piss-poor worthless design skills have no business developing apps for user interaction. By all means continue to develop with no thought to your user base, but you won't get many fans. Stick to writing stuff the users don't need to interact with.

    19. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software in question.

      In my experience, most of the people who complain about these sorts of things do so because the new app lacks some key feature that makes their workflow better. Dismissing someone's opinion simply because they have actually used similar commercial software is stupidity, as it means you are unable to gain wisdom from the study of designs that have come before yours. In fact, it is precisely this mindset that causes user interfaces in free software to almost invariably suck---the whole "this is the way we do things, and you'll just have to get used to it" mentality does not lend itself to learning. I'll probably get modded down for saying it, but it's worth burning the karma if it gets people's attention.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Couldn't disagree more. I would argue that most UI designers have no business coding any more than most coders have any business designing user interfaces. The two skill sets are very different, with very little overlap either in knowledge or in the mental structures used in performing the two tasks. Good UI design is more closely related to software architecture, not coding. You have to figure out how best to lay out a user interface based on careful study of what the user is likely to want to do, careful thought about what things a user is likely to group together as similar operations (menu layout), and careful study of actual users to watch their workflow followed by probing interviews to find out what worked well and what didn't. It is basically scientific in nature. Software architecture is the same way. You're looking ahead to what the coders might want to add, what features the users might want, etc. and designing the overall architecture to accommodate those future needs.

      Coding is a different skill set entirely. It focuses on knowledge of what types of methodical steps you have to achieve to reach a goal. Software architects and UI designers are the architects where coders are the construction workers. Expecting UI designers to code is no less silly than expecting your architect to be proficient at hammering nails into boards to build a wall.

      Further, a strong case for the separation of those elements is the Mac design model. You have a separate Interface Builder application (well, it's part of Xcode now, IIRC) that gives people the ability to design the UI without writing a single line of code. Then, coders can come in and hook that functionality up to the underlying code. By doing that, it not only allows people to focus on the things that they do best, but also makes it much easier to modify the UI because you can create it visually instead of messing around with programmatic drawing that constantly puts UI elements in the wrong place. I get the impression that some Linux developers do the same sort of thing with Glade, but I've never used it, so I can't draw any real comparisons.

      Trust me, getting UI designers to write code is the last thing you want to do....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    20. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by choongiri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your analogy doesn't follow. Better would be:

      "How did the carpenter building his own home respond to the (voluntary) suggestions of a professional architect?"

      ...but that doesn't have the air of such a witty retort, does it.

    21. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

      Forced to respond to suggestions made by some end user? I'm pretty sure architects are gone when they "release" their project.

    22. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1

      "(1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change"

      I can dig. Being a longtime GNU/Linux user, I recently got a MacBook Pro and find it nigh unusable. As a student of human nature, I'm aware that this is largely due to my own conditioning. So I don't trot around saying the problems are cause by its being a Mac, or an Apple, or Proprietary.

      Ah, but when free software is under discussion, all of a sudden the *business or development model is to blame for the drawbacks?

      Amarok is 8 X more usable than any other media player I've seen. More responsive, too. Also links you up with scads of free culture if you want it to.

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    23. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "But I still know when someone else's design either works or fails utterly"

      No, I don't think you do. Not fersure, at least:

      Tell me: which design works better for *me, Quicken or GnuCash?

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    24. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by John+Allsup · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wonder how many 'designers' who 'can't code' are employed by Apple to 'design' their user interface without 'coding' it. We'll never know exactly, but I suspect it's quite a few, and the Apple is the one to look to as an example of how it's done properly. (Sure there are many places where it can be improved, but there is less room for improvement in the Mac OS than on either Linux or Windows.)

      Personally, I was driven to Linux by frustration with Windows, and to the Mac by frustration with Linux. I've experienced all three, still run Linux a bit, but when it comes to getting things done, I use the Mac. Linux must catch up if it wants to be competitive.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    25. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by John+Allsup · · Score: 3, Informative

      Agreed. Understanding usability is a totally different discipline to coding. One can easily do either without being able to do the other. The problem is that proper solutions to usability problems need proper foundations laid. Complaints about the foundations of usability tend to fall on deaf ears in the Free Software community -- certainly those who care are in the minority.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    26. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by clang_jangle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought this open source stuff was about the fact everybody could contribute to the program if they wanted, but apparently I thought wrong. Apparently only uber-geeks with a masterful command programming knowledge can work to improve open source software.

      Your high horse is showing. :) If you don't like my GPL'd interface, you are free to design one of your own and hire someone else to code it for you, if necessary. FOSS does not mean, "anything you want, gratis!". It means if you don't like something you have the freedom to change it. I have little respect for those who use the word "free" as an excuse to try to hold up developers with their limitless opinion-based suggestions. Some projects are very open to user suggestions, others are very tied to following a well-defined vision. Neither model is "incorrect". No-one is forcing anyone to use any GPL software "as-is", that's the whole point. It's not so you can get your way while contributing nothing but opinions. Though occasionally you may get lucky like that. :)

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    27. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by gparent · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting something here. While somebody who CAN code is much more useful since they can both critique and improve the software by themselves, that doesn't mean somebody who CANNOT causes his critic to be void.

    28. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speaking from experience...

      If you open the door for design suggestions to non-programmers, you tend to get a bazillion responses, most of which are complete rubbish.

      With code, there is a natural barrier to entry as well as a natural test of the quality of the submission. With interface designs there is no such barriers and it seems every other user fancies him/her self usability expert.

      And then, when you don't do what they want, they start to hate you.

    29. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by pesc · · Score: 1

      If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing
      things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the
      software in question.

      ...

      Speaking of which, tried Windows lately? Now to me, that's really
      hard to use! But then, I don't want to learn the "Windows way" of doing everything, as I fail to see the pay off in it.

      Hmm... Methinks this says more about you than it does about the usability of Windows...

      --

      )9TSS
    30. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      I still use a spreadsheet, because the terms used by the financial software is listed as 'self incriminating evidence' in the law books. I wonder why people have to declare "income" or "wages" as per the IRC... anyone wonder?

      God its good to be totally retired... no more voluntary filing of taxes with employers, employees or anything else.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    31. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by clang_jangle · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If FOSS were a restaurant, it would be of a type that if you don't like what's on the menu you may use the kitchen to make something else you prefer, with your choice of ingredients in stock or BYO. Since I doubt there are any restaurants like that, I believe your analogy fails.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    32. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The command line in Unix is more "usable" because it is older, more mature,
      has more features and flexibility, and is more easily extensible. I can
      augment a GUI with a few lines of shell scripting with considerably less
      effort than it would take to "fix" the given GUI application.

      I can make some shell script both easier and simpler than just about
      any GUI application and tailor it to my own needs so that it most
      closely meets my needs (and thus meets my own personal notion of
      "intuitive").

      That said, there are still Unix/Linux GUI applications that are
      more functional, simpler and easier than their Windows/Mac
      counterparts that we're supposed to be cloning. The "chasing
      tail lights" criticism is a very good one in this respect because
      sometimes neither of the allegedly "better" platforms do it right
      or better.

      At this point, it's no longer a given that the Mac or Windows version
      of some GUI for some sort of app is any better.

      Improvement of Linux GUI's should not be limited by what Mac or Windows
      applications do or what design dogmas they follow.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    33. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by drxenos · · Score: 1

      I can't believe utter nonsense like this got modded up. You would dismiss the opinion of experts in human factors because they aren't programmers? Do you dismiss the advice of your doctor because he is not a chemist and doesn't make the drugs he prescribes?

      --


      Anonymous Cowards suck.
    34. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, the general contractor "builds" the building.

      I would take the advice and design saavy of a good general
      contractor over any architect any day. People who are in the
      trenches are much more likely to have a better grasp of what
      all of the bits written on scraps of paper actually mean for
      the people who will be living in the house.

      "designers" can too easily fixate too much on each other's
      bullsh*t and lose site of the real world.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    35. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by grumbel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wouldn't go so far to say that a critique is useless, but there is truth in his statement. A lot of usability problems are not just where you place the buttons, but they are much more deeply down in the code structure. Take Gimp for example, one of my issues with it is its lackluster animation support, you of course can try to polish the GUI a bit, but the real problem are much deeper down into the code and need to be fixed there first before you can even start to think about a proper GUI, same is true for a lot of other issues.

      Usability in the free software world is simply not just an issue of GUI, but goes down through all layers of the code, since after all, they have to be usable too, both by developers and users. Tackling the GUI is all nice and good, but it really is only a small part of the whole picture.

    36. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KGIII · · Score: 1

      FMI:
      http://useit.com/

      The AlertBox newsletter is also nice and lets you know when new articles are posted and it isn't very spammy at all.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    37. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by westlake · · Score: 1
      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.
      .

      This is lunacy.

      Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that no one but a coder as any business playing any part in the development of a program.

      Because human-computer interaction studies a human and a machine in conjunction, it draws from supporting knowledge on both the machine and the human side. On the machine side, techniques in computer graphics, operating systems, programming languages, and development environments are relevant. On the human side, communication theory, graphic and industrial design disciplines, linguistics, social sciences, cognitive psychology, and human performance are relevant. Engineering and design methods are also relevant. Human-computer interaction

      While it would be nice to have someone with the perfect knowledge and perfect balance needed to navigate all these disciplines on your team, in the real world it doesn't happen --- and it is on the human side where FOSS fails.

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software.

      The geek can never quite forgive the user for being more intractable than the machine --- or the success of those who have profited from that simple truth.

      It sticks in his craw even more when it is the enemy who moves forward first and most successfully. The Microsoft Office Fluent user interface overview

    38. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by shlompo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's more simpler than that... Most programmers will go the swiss-knife way, making a really effective cool tool, doing everything, really good, instead of giving the users what they want: never to have to actually invest in it, learning or otherwise. Make it do what it says, and NOTHING else. If you want the can opener too, write another app, or put it somewhere away from the user.

      Make it simple, stupid, is btw, one of the common mistakes. MS wizards are simple. Nobody uses them. You still have to invest in the tool to work with it: read each page, make decisions. The rule should be: if you can decide for the user, don't confront him with the question, let the program figure it for the user. Allow configuration, don't force it. Think Skype. Think Ubuntu. Now think xinetd...

    39. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Hurricane78 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't want to insult anyone with this, but that whole discussion about who knows what design is "TEH BEST!!!!1one(lim x->0 ((sin x)/x)" is rather stupid. It's based on the logic flaw that there is something absolute in this world.

      There isn't.
      And that's a good thing.

      Now I thought about this quite a bit, and wrote a possible solution to in in my other post.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    40. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    41. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by $random_var · · Score: 1

      I agree! Furthermore, architects who can't dig foundations have no business designing skyscrapers, and engineers who don't know how to fly an F-22 have no business trying to design them!

    42. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should
      work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Uh, isn't the very method through which progress has been made in every single industry specialization? If a GUI designer can focus on just that instead of also having to learn to code, the designer can be much better at it. Or are you of the opinion that the engineers working on the engine should also design the car seats? That should result in a great driving experience, right?

    43. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by wolf12886 · · Score: 1

      Your analogy implies that the original argument was that people who can't code have no business using software or complaining when it doesn't work. Whereas the OP claimed only that non coders have no business designing software.

      A more accurate analogy would be: "people who can't cook have no business plating and decorating food"

    44. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's worse to have someone tell you that your interface sucks without giving infallible specific suggestions to fix it than for your interface simply to suck without you knowing any better?

    45. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Jake73 · · Score: 1

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing
      things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the
      software in question.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should
      work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Hm. Time for someone to read a little Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. First of all, quality can be judged by those that are not necessarily able to produce quality.

      Second, quality is not all about the eye of the beholder. There are some objective measures that can be established.

      A good way to judge the quality of writing, for example, is to read a lot. You basically program yourself to recognize good quality writing.

      Perhaps a good way for you to become a better judge of usability would be for you to use a lot of different kinds of software. I, personally, find it self-evident that some software is far more usable than other software, regardless of the user using it.

    46. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by BlackCreek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The command line in Unix is more "usable" because it is older, more mature, has more features and flexibility, and is more easily extensible.

      And also because all these Computer Science / Physics / Engineering graduates that argue how easy is to get things done with a shell so conveniently forget the amount of time they dedicated to learn how to use a shell.

      I am personally (much) more comfortable using zsh than any GUI for manipulating files, or other tasks. But what most people tend to forget is that there is a much larger pool of users that are not willing to memorize 200 commands, and read man pages for days and days in order to just use their computer.

    47. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by furball · · Score: 1

      And it doesn't matter if the architect is around or gone when their part of it is done. When people point to the building and say "That building is a piece of shit designed by Assclown the Architect" that's all that needs to be said.

      You are never separated from your work. You may think so but the ability to listen to feedback is what separates good from mediocre.

    48. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by ibbie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If, on the other hand, you can find a way to improve it, I'm sure many people will welcome your advice and implement it.

      Agreed. Just telling a programmer that their software isn't usable isn't very constructive. Often times, they already know that, they just don't know the best way to fix it.

      One good, non-specific way might be to offer to write an article including a basic set of guidelines for a popular site - say linux journal or linux magazine. Or where ever you think it might come up nicely in a google search, for that matter.

      I realize that this might not be a motivation for those who want an immediate return for their efforts - who want specific software X to be more usable - but you never know. Maybe someone who's currently writing software Y, that you've been dying for, will take your advice and make their software contribution that much better.

      I suppose what I'm trying to say is that a lot of programmers - myself included - would love it if usability experts would devote some of their time and effort into making our own time and effort more worthwhile to the end users. Heck, even if they don't consider themselves an "expert", if they think they have a few ideas on what would be better, it'd be much more appreciated than a simple comment about how something "sucks".

      --
      The wise follow a damned path, for to know is to be forsaken.
    49. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by springbox · · Score: 1, Funny

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the software in question.

      I will call this the "submarine Blender defense"

    50. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by r00t · · Score: 1

      The issue is more general than that. The usability experts who can't code *can* improve usability, by telling the developers what to do.

      In theory, yes. They can also fuck it up. :-)

      Sugar (on the OLPC XO) is a great example. The screenshots are beautiful. The description sounds lovely. Actual day-to-day use is another matter entirely.

    51. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by 19061969 · · Score: 1

      And conversely, it could be argued that coders who can't design adequately have absolutely no business "working" in software either, not unless their work has no human interface.

      Which leaves an awful lot of programming down to only those souls who can do both and everybody else can fuck off and watch. Which means that I can make a *lot* of money 'coz I can!

      btw - "usability" is formalised in an ISO standard and derives from the field of human-computer interaction. It's best to forget your own opinions when discussing usability.

      --
      bang goes my karma... again...
    52. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by carlmenezes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree with both points.

      (1) There are enough universally applied usability rules to allow you to design an application for well over 90% of end users. I will go out on a limb and say that if you want your software to grow and evolve, you will make it usable. This means that you will try your best to minimize what your target audience needs to learn in order to use it. Poor usability simply means you hope someone else will do the work.

      (2)Designers design. Coders code. Each is good at their own job. What is important is good communication between the two. As long as one does not try to tell the other how to do their job, things will be fine. What is needed is simply a level of respect and appreciation for the abilities of the two fields. When they work well together is when you have successful projects.

      I do agree with your point of learning "the Windows way" being pointless. I'd also like to extend it to learning things "the Apple way", or any other way. That said though, I do think that a lot can be achieved by taking the good points of each and iteratively applying them - Apple is good at identifying stuff to do in the background. Windows is good at making everything explicit. While there is no one size fits all solution, open source can learn from the good points (and mistakes) of the others.

      --
      Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
    53. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it isn't, and it's obvious you didn't RTFA.

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but I always RTFA. And yes, only a total idiot would argue that usability is not in the mind of the user. There are occasionally violations of what most would agree we may commonly consider general principles of usability in some software, FOSS and proprietary -- but it is the exception, not the rule, as such software doesn't become popular.
      Anyway, so you didn't like what I said -- I stated right up front it was my opinion, but I guess taking that into account would require a bit more thought than you were willing to expend? Your self-righteous tone just grated on my nerves, Anonymous Coward, and I wanted to give you back what you gave me without taking the karma hit, hence I am posting this AC. I don't know if you're a total moron or if you're just having a bad day, but either way... Piss off, jackass. Quit whining about stuff those of who can do are good enough to allow you to use gratis, even if you're not smart enough to take advantage of your freedoms. IOW, you're welcome, asshole.
      c_j

    54. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "It seems you've never used emacs, little one."

      That's why I don't use Emacs, I use Gedit and Kate, which are both GUI text editors. They're every bit as usable as their Windows and Mac equivalents. Just because you've found a 20-30 year old piece of software that was written before the rise of graphical user interfaces, doesn't mean that all open source software have poor usability.

    55. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by wanderingknight · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But they paid for the food.

    56. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Bogtha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's more of an issue of *just* criticising, instead of offering constructive opinions. If all you can do is say "this sucks" but not say why or how it can be improved, then I agree, you have no business in software.

      No, that's not criticising without being constructive, that's just insulting. Just because somebody doesn't tell you how to improve, it doesn't make the criticism invalid. It's perfectly possible to offer constructive criticism without suggesting solutions. Your attitude is typically held by people who don't want to be told they are wrong. It's an easy comeback to ask somebody else to do your job, but it's no excuse. If a critic points out that an interface is confusing, it's the designer's job to fix it, not theirs. Just because the critic isn't a designer themselves, it doesn't make the interface any less confusing.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    57. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by runningduck · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, being intuitive is only one measure of an application's over-all usability. Sometime too heavy of a focus on being intuitive can interfere with an application's usability or in extreme cases suitability for accomplishing a task.

      --
      -rd
    58. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      More than likely he's run into far too many people who simply look at something, take no time to understand it, and say it is too confusing.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    59. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      I could just as easily argue that programmers who haven't studied behavioral psychology should not be allowed to contribute to designing user interfaces, since they are obviously not qualified. Or, as an analogy, you could argue civil engineers who are not physically fit should not be allowed to have input on the design of runoff ditches and it should be left up to the ditch diggers to decide where they go. Frankly, I think your opinion is myopic.

      Personally, I find FBSD, Debian, Slackware, and the majority of GNU software to be quite usable. Of course, I don't expect everything to be zero effort, either. Anything worth doing takes a bit of effort.

      Do you feel the same way about, say aircraft? Anything worth doing takes effort, so you should have to learn aircraft repair and maintenance and constantly be working on your plane in order to get it to work each flight. How about cars? You can't expect to be able to drive if you can't put in the effort and learn how to rebuild your fuel injection system.

      Speaking of which, tried Windows lately? Now to me, that's really hard to use! But then, I don't want to learn the "Windows way" of doing everything, as I fail to see the pay off in it.

      Maybe this is part of what is leading you off track. Windows has terrible usability. The difference is MS has a monopoly so even though their usability sucks, people deal with it and use it anyway. With Linux, the opposite is true. Unless it is significantly better than Windows, it doesn't stand a chance of gaining market share on the desktop. Being as good as the abominable usability that is Windows won't cut it.

    60. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, but you're demonstrating the attitude that results in things never being improved or fixed because you know best. Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, you might.

    61. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well,I can say I have been able to switch a lot of folks over to FOSS,like Firefox and especially the new OO.o 3,simply because MSFT,especially with MS Office 2K7 threw the design that everyone was used to out the window. The complaint I got the most were "the menus are all wrong" and "I can't find anything! It is just too hard to use."

      If the Linux guys want to convert the Windows users,and I'm probably going to get modded into the basement for saying this but it's the truth,ignore Vista and its pretty 3d crap and make software that fits into the Win2K/XP File-edit-view menu convention. That is what Windows users know,what they have worked with since Win95,and most of them REALLY hate change. They want a start button on the bottom left of the desktop,they want file-edit-view in the top left of the program,and they want the traditional Ctrl-c Ctrl-v shortcuts. That is why I have no problems when I am working on site and the boss asks me to let one of his employees use my laptop while I am fixing their machine. Because with Xandros Business everything is laid out like WinXP and the users are able to get their work done without having to throw out years of experience.

      So if I were going to design software for usability,Id take what the majority already know how to do and build from that,instead of starting from scratch.I got a first hand lesson of how much experience matters last week. I had to dig out an 8 year old AMD gamer board I had in the back of my closet to do a rush repair for a graphics designer whose work ground to a halt. He has this one program(Xres) that he uses for the majority of his photo restoration work. He had a deadline and while Photoshop ran fine on his new machine Xres won't run on a SATA drive and his old machine died at the worst possible moment. So I watched him struggle trying to get this big 85 year old photo restored in Photoshop while I sat building him a new "old" machine out of my old gamer board. The second I plugged the new machine into his KVM and told him it was done he yelled "Oh Thank God!" and what was taking him hours in Photoshop he had done in under 5 minutes. Because after 11 years he knows every shortcut,every slider,every button and option by instinct. So he' ll just keep giving me money to insure that he always has a machine just for that program,because for him the usability of Xres is well worth the money.So taking the past experience of the user into consideration would probably be smart. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    62. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by el_chupanegre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If FOSS were a restaurant, it would be of a type that if you don't like what's on the menu you may use the kitchen to make something else you prefer, with your choice of ingredients in stock or BYO. Since I doubt there are any restaurants like that, I believe your analogy fails.

      And if you can't cook then you shouldn't eat presumably?

      The analogy works quite well I think. Just because you can't do better yourself doesn't mean that you can't tell when someone else does it badly.

      The chef makes food that makes me puke. I can't cook. Does that, therefore, mean I can't say the chef did a bad job of cooking? That doesn't hold.

    63. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 1

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user.

      I challenge you to find any user who thinks that a GUI that can only be operated with a mouse is more usable than one that can be operated using both mouse and keyboard. I also challenge you to find any user who thinks that a GUI with arbitrary tab order in dialog boxes is better than one with visually predictable tab order (except users who've already gotten used to the arbitrary order -- they would've gotten used to the visually predictable one just as well, but the latter is more convenient to new users without being less convenient to experiences users).

    64. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by houghi · · Score: 2, Funny
      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    65. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 4, Funny

      The issue is more general than that. The usability experts who can't code *can* improve usability, by telling the developers what to do.

      It's more of an issue of *just* criticising, instead of offering constructive opinions. If all you can do is say "this sucks" but not say why or how it can be improved, then I agree, you have no business in software. If, on the other hand, you can find a way to improve it, I'm sure many people will welcome your advice and implement it.

      RE: Bugfix, Usability is a matter of opinion

      *WONTFIX*

      Usage works for me.

      *Ducks and runs*

      --
      Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    66. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 1

      I can make some shell script both easier and simpler than just about any GUI application and tailor it to my own needs so that it most closely meets my needs (and thus meets my own personal notion of "intuitive").

      I don't think you can easily draw or modify a picture using shell programming (and I'm talking about interactive, creative image manipulation here, not about things like "increase the brightness by 50 percent in these 5,000 images").

    67. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Straw man. You are free to use any FOSS whether or not you can code. But since you insist your ideas about how other people should do their jobs are so important, why don't you send me some of your work so I can point out what I don't like about it, mmkay?

    68. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Command line for experts, GUIs for casual users" is a false dilemma anyway. Which is why people don't generally use command lines to draw images, compose music or construct cars and airplanes on a computer, no matter what their skill level is. Even the most skilled "Engineering graduates" use, among other software, CAD programs (which have GUIs).

    69. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      That makes about as much sense as saying that coders who can't design have no business making software.

      Good software requires good code. Good software also requires good design. Unless the skills are present in a single person (rare), then a project is going to need both kinds of people.

    70. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Teun · · Score: 1
      Yes usability is in the mind of the user.

      Like as a user I like to wring the necks of a few programmers that have labelled the buttons for data exchange between two computational devices respectively 'Upload' and 'Download'.

      This leaves to the user to experiment which button goes A-B and which one B-A, this with the real risk of data loss.

      Worst but not surprising is that different manufacturers have programmers with opposing ideas...

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    71. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, restaurants where guests take part in the food preparation do exist. There's an artsy place like that in Oslo. They also sell you the paintings off the walls if you like them.

    72. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

      There is no reason to make your efforts available to the world if you're not open to criticism. Furthermore, developers work is very much appreciated by not developer users; there is no reason to take offense to constructive or even non-constructive criticism. Non-developers have no idea (for the most part) what went into thinking through and creating an application, they are only able to attest to its usability and usefulness. No one expects a developer to be good at everything (design), but the awesome thing about open source is that even the non-technical user can recognize, appreciate, review, and hopefully contribute to the overall effort in some way.

      We all want the same thing here really, to have an open source alternative that is comparable or even superior to its proprietary counterpart that people who appreciate the efforts of others can appreciate and feel like they're a part of.

    73. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Homer1946 · · Score: 1

      No-one is forcing anyone to use any GPL software "as-is", that's the whole point.

      My problem here is that some free software advocates come close to at least wanting for force people to use GPL software. When they make statements like non-free software is ethically tainted, and anybody who uses anything other than free software cannot possibly be making a reasonable choice because they are uninformed, or lazy, etc. then they open themselves up to valid criticisms to make their software work as well as other options.

      You may not be in this camp, but many FOSS advocates are. They want to preach that everybody should be using their software of choice (or otherwise be tainted by EVIL), but don't want to be bothered with the details about why making such a switch is not always in a particular users best interest. Look at some of the recent activities of the FSF for examples.

    74. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by turbidostato · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "You are a good example of the "works for me" mentality in the open source software community. "If it works for me, then it must work for anybody else, and if it doesn't, it's their fault"."

      You are a good example of the "I'master of Universe" mentality in the open source users community. The mentality of a spare-time open source developer is not "If it works for me, then it must work for anybody else, and if it doesn't, it's their fault" but "If it works for me, then it works for everybody I meant it to work for, so I'm finished".

      When you go to the mall for your weekly shop you don't (generally) ask all your neighbourgs what they want from the mall. Probably if some neighbourgh *politely* asks if you can do him a favour and bring some shampoo for him, you'll probably do it. If he asks unpolitely, or if he asks you to bring him a 50" plasma screen, or if he asks you to do his shop every week you'll send him to hell.

      When a spare-time developer gives you *anything* he is making you a favour; just treat him as you'd treat your neighbough if you want him to bring you a shampoo bottle from the mall. I don't think it's so hard to understand.

    75. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dbcad7 · · Score: 1

      I don't do a lot of animation.. just a few animated gifs here and there, so I am not sure what animation support is missing in Gimp ?? .. I found it to be pretty easy. I learned it without so much as reading a help file. Not disputing you, but I was just curious what it is that's missing ?

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    76. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jgrahn · · Score: 1

      I don't think you can easily draw or modify a picture using shell programming (and I'm talking about interactive, creative image manipulation here, not about things like "increase the brightness by 50 percent in these 5,000 images").

      That example is pretty rare and useless -- how often do you have 5000 images with the exact same brightness problem? For me there is usually a GUI-based step when I do such things (e,g, find the JPEG images which are incorrectly rotated 90 degrees, and feed them to jpegtran for lossless correction).

      A better non-GUI image manipulation example: pictures that are diagrams, plots, graphical statistics and things like that. Here, non-GUI interfaces are often superior (pic, grap, gnuplot, graphviz ...). You create a text file which describes the image.

      But sure, some kinds of images are better created in a WYSIWYG GUI.

    77. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by tehBoris · · Score: 1

      That changes your relationship with the cook, not the food.

    78. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by doupatex · · Score: 1

      I think that the command line is more usable because it uses the same building bricks on pretty much any UN*X-like system (pipes, "standard" utilities like ls, etc.).

      You can build an intuitive mental model of the command line, because of it's (relative) uniformity.

      At this point, it's no longer a given that the Mac or Windows version
      of some GUI for some sort of app is any better.

      An app by itself is nothing. You have to consider the whole package of apps that you use, and the system configuration tools, and the print dialog, everything that's part of the GUI "environment".

      Windows and Mac GUI programs have an essential advantage over their Linux cousins: they use one toolkit. Moreover, when you create a Mac application with Apple-provided tools, you are (strongly) advised to follow common guidelines (Microsoft may have the same policy, I suppose). As of today, Linux apps have a long way to go before they can match their evil proprietary counterparts.

      Choice of GUI is good, but you can't expect uniformity across toolkits...

      That's why I stick to command-line, text-only programs under Linux :-)

    79. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Zerth · · Score: 1

      Sure you can. It's called logo. Remember that Lisp-y language with the turtle for drawing? Completely text based, interactive drawing.

      You can also write javascript, microsoft shell script, and a few other languages to control/use photoshop. On one odd job, I used the console(actually, it might've been a 3rd party plugin) to find and replace graphics, create a new logo(I cheated and used an l-system), rearranged #^*%$ing cables, and draw stuff that could be descriped mathematically.

      Now I did have photoshop open so I could have just used a mouse, but my wrist would've died and it would've taken me forever - I'm not an artist.

    80. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by turbidostato · · Score: 0, Troll

      "The analogy works quite well I think."

      Yes, probably it is a good analogy: specially high ranked cheffs usually own quite big egos, so you just go to Juan Mari Arzak's kitchen and tell him his "kokotxas al pil-pil" (which probably will cost you more than 100US$ -how this work within your analogy?) had too much garlic and see what happens.

    81. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by joto · · Score: 1

      I disagree. First I disagree that this discussion is about finding "TEH BEST!!!!" design. It was about developing free software whose usability sucks less. Secondly, I disagree that discussing how free software can suck less in terms of usability is stupid. Thirdly, I disagree with your notion that nothing is absolute in this world.

      Most free software suck. But that's ok, because most everything else suck as well. But when it comes to usability, free software generally sucks more than non-free software suck. This, I think, is a problem. While we will never have "TEH BEST" interface, we can certainly improve them. And most certainly, some of these changes will be better, objectively better, unless of course your purpose is to confuse and alienate users. So yeah, maybe you're right, there's nothing absolute in this world.

    82. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dondelelcaro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are a good example of the "works for me" mentality in the open source software community. "If it works for me, then it must work for anybody else, and if it doesn't, it's their fault".

      The mentality is actually: "If it works for me, why should I spend time making it work worse for me?"

      I thought this open source stuff was about the fact everybody could contribute to the program if they wanted

      That's precisely the point; random comments without a great deal of thought (which are usually the majority in my experience) aren't a useful contribution. I personally have no problem with sustained, detailed, well thought-out usability suggestions and comments on projects that I maintain, but these are often few and far between.

      .

      --
      http://www.donarmstrong.com
    83. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      http://useit.com/

      It's funny... in my graduation thesis, I used that as an example of bad design. Maybe Nielsen knows his stuff, but he does not bother to make his own site usable. It is flat, ugly, and fails to give any sense of hierarchy. On the other hand, Slashdot was the example of a well-designed site. Everything here is well organized and readable.

    84. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dondelelcaro · · Score: 1

      The chef makes food that makes me puke. I can't cook. Does that, therefore, mean I can't say the chef did a bad job of cooking? That doesn't hold.

      No, but everyone else responding "sucks to be you", would also be an appropriate response. I mean, it's not like it's the chef's problem if tetracyCLIne makes you puke.

      --
      http://www.donarmstrong.com
    85. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dondelelcaro · · Score: 1

      By your logic we would all be using rocks to pound nails because, "It works, you just have to think a little bit." Being intuitive means that people want to use it that is the point.

      Try nail guns instead. An intuitive interface to a nail is a hammer.

      --
      http://www.donarmstrong.com
    86. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dondelelcaro · · Score: 1

      But the holy grail of usability is that which most closely reflects the way in which we have evolved to think.

      There's very little innate knowledge which relates to modern computer interfaces, so claiming that evolution and therefore genetics has much to do with it is rather disingenuous.

      --
      http://www.donarmstrong.com
    87. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      EXACTLY! I can learn a programming language and write a program that does precisely what I want it to do. But that takes a vast investment of time to have a tool which does instantly what I need done. Perfect for people like programmers who might do one thing over and over and over and over... but not so hot for someone who just wants to do something once every 3 months.

      The bane of the command line program is this: ">"

      I sit there and stare at the little arrow. I want to copy a file. But all I can see is ">" What does ">" mean? Maybe I should type in what I want to do "CopyFile"... "command unknown". Great... well I'm out of ideas. Yes the interface might be faster... if you don't have to open a MAN file every 10 minutes because you forgot if it was cpyfile or copyfile or cpyfle or copy_file or copy-file or... whatever. The point is. Command lines are like code. They will do exactly what you want them to do once you know the magic incantantation with the right pronunciation. But if you know what you want to do but have never used the software before you're SOL. This is why I love node based tools. When I'm learning a new programming language I have no idea what classes and functions exist. I might even know the exact tool I need "I need to find the position in a string where "hello" is found". But translating that into a class name is a game witchcraft and endless help document scimming until you happen to find an arbitrary function name which does it.

      GUIs show me my choices. Yes they show me my choices every single time. But I like to know what it is I can do. A BAD gui doesn't show me my opportunities. It buries it in a menu which is as bad as burying it in a command line command somewhere. But even a GUI is better than a command line while learning because when you finally do find the command you want to do... you can act on it instantly! No closing the MAN file reciting "'copyfile 'filename' -f -s-t-u #silent *underhanded" in your head hoping you don't forget it before you type it in.

      Again many developer tools can operate on command line because the functionality barely changes from version to version. In all of the software I use every release adds hundreds of new features I need to learn and I need real time feedback on changes I make... I can't wait to execute a command to see if it's right.

      Take SQL as a perfect example of a command line tool. SQL has barely changed in its command structure in 15 years. Of course you're super fast at writing complex SQL scripts that deliver exactly the information you need! You've been practicing those exact same commands for 15 years! What if SQL radically changed every few months? And what if instead of only a few dozen commands chained together it was 10,000 tools and settings in a single application? You cany very quickly get to the point in most software where it is simply impossible to use it as a command line tool and expect a user to use it without a MAN file permanantly open next to it.

      I've spent 3 years learning MaxScript for instance for 3DsMax. Which is its command line toolset. It can take me a week to create a script which I can do in 20 seconds using the GUI. Once I write the script it might take an artist half a second but even I completely forget the name of a function I wrote earlier in the morning "What was it again? GetObjectIDFromDatabase or was it getObjectfromDatabase... what was the order of the function calls again? What was the name of that function which... I wrote it myself! And I still have to refer to my own help file to remember what the name of 90% of my commands are. It's unreasonable to expect someone to remember the command names and possible flags for 200 functions... and that's a primitive script. And even if I did expect someone to memorize all 200 commands... they would just have to memorize another 200 the next month when another tool is added to the toolset... and another 200 the next month after that... and another 200 the month after that.

    88. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by thevil · · Score: 1

      Personally, I find FBSD, Debian, Slackware, and the majority of GNU software to be quite usable.

      Yeah. But usability, or general graphic design for that matter, is not about what any one person thinks.

      Anyone who has little to no concept of even the fundamentals of graphic design or how to test their code for performance , accuracy, recall and the emotional response and also know how to act according to the results should stay away from releasing anything but perls scripts for sorting their own collection of humorous videos and funny pictures in descending order of degree of dignity.

      This is an iterative process that should be convergent, and if it is not then you will not know if your code is even worth anything at all for the end user. If you never test you will never know. Well, until someone with a clue does what you do but the proper way.

      What do you base your decisions on today? Favorite colors?

      Performance (how much time, and how many steps, are required for people to complete basic tasks)
      Accuracy (how many mistakes did people make and were they fatal or recoverable with the right information?)
      Recall (how much does the person remember afterwards or after periods of non-use?)
      Emotional response (how does the person feel about the tasks completed?)

    89. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      You can do experiments to test usability, and if you do, you will find that there are measurable differences in how fast and accurate people perform using different interfaces, and how quickly they become proficient with those interfaces.

      You can have all the opinions you want, but when they conflict with experimentally determined reality, your opinions are useless.

    90. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      The very basic problem is: If you need a "option X" on OSS program, but you don't know how to make yourself this option? 80% of OSS users doesn't know how to write code, they just needs to use the software.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    91. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Draek · · Score: 1

      Hammers aren't used instead of rocks because they're more "intuitive", and in fact, I'd say both are equal in that area (you grab 'em, and you pound it against your favorite kind of nail). We use hammers because they're more *efficient*, because they're designed so that the biggest percentage of the energy expended is used to pound the nail instead of being wasted fighting the air's drag or whatever.

      And in case you missed it, we're talking about Free Software, not Linux, and while Linux is Free Software, not all Free Software is (or runs on) Linux, for example, FreeBSD which the GP mentioned, or Paint.NET which is Windows-only F/OSS.

      Finally, though I don't completely agree with the GP's points, I'd say that anyone designing *anything* of a car should at least know how an engine works, otherwise we could end up with a car that has no exhaust because "it looks ugly", and likewise, I'd prefer it if software designers at least had a clue about how software works, even if they can't write anything more complex than a "Hello World" in BASIC.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    92. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Maybe that's a matter of taste or experiences? I'm not really sure which. I've been able to navigate the site fairly easily and though it is as ugly as all hell I've been quite pleased with the site.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    93. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      So in summary: - Show the user what it is they can do.
      - List properties as adjectives and actions as verbs. (This is a fundamental that is broken more than any other.) "OK is not a verb. "Yes" is not a verb.
      - Show the user what will happen before they do it in real time so that they can decide if that's actually what they want.
      and - Help the user by showing them what the next logical step would be if there is one.

      It's not rocket science. If every developer could figure out a way to balance those three needs usability would vastly improve.

      BTW while we're talking about usability. This is 2008 it's about fucking time for Slashdot to implement some RTF editing functionality. I mean honstly. Typing in HTML? What is this the dark ages? IF I want a new line.. WHY DO I HAVE TO TYPE IN BR? /rant

    94. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by NatteringNabob · · Score: 1

      That's more or less my feeling as well. Of course, Matthew Paul Thomas misses the forest for the trees; free software has usability problems for roughly the same reasons as proprietary software has usability problems. One size doesn't fit all, and the more optional features there are, the less well it works for the people that only really needed size 'medium'. IMHO, Fedora is now much more 'usable' than Windows, and has been for quite a while. For example, Nautilus does things 'out of the box' that requires 2 or 3 additional 'add ons' on Windows and most of those are free software too.

    95. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 1

      A better non-GUI image manipulation example: pictures that are diagrams, plots, graphical statistics and things like that. Here, non-GUI interfaces are often superior (pic, grap, gnuplot, graphviz ...). You create a text file which describes the image.

      Even there you could use a GUI for choosing graphical parameters. Have you ever twiddled with Gnuplot's numerous parameters like font size, axis labelling or, let alone, 3D viewpoint selection? In most cases, only the raw data points are written automatically, the commands that set graphical parameter are more or less discovered by trial and error. If there was a text template file format for holding these parameters (could be a gnuplot script in the simplest case), and a way to read that in from a gnuplot script, and an interactive GUI tool for editing such a parameter file, with instant visual feedback, I think many regular Gnuplot users would use it.

    96. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Escogido · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      And this mentality is exactly the reason the free software usability is poor.

      Now, as to how to fix *that*, I've no clue.

    97. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually if you are an advanced engineering student using a CAD program, you will almost certainly spend most of the time using the command line interface. Have you actually used AutoCAD, say? It has a command line interface at the bottom of the screen because it's a lot easier to type out the command to draw a line of a certain size, snapping to given points, than to do that with the GUI.

    98. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, when the food if given away for free.

    99. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by grumbel · · Score: 2, Informative

      The trouble starts with Gimp not having one animation system, but two. One is simply layer based with one layer for each frame, which works fine for really simple stuff, but starts to cause trouble with more complex stuff (transparent layers can't be properly previewed, changing fps for preview isn't easily possible, only one layer per frame, etc.). The other system is GAP, which works by having one .xcf file per frame, which fixes a few shortcomings of the other, but adds plenty of its own. For one thing you have to save your image under a special name before you can start animating, which is not only awkward, but also causes plenty of other problems. Gimp doesn't have proper access to all frames, but only to the current one, the GAP plug-in swaps the images more or less behind Gimps back. This not only causes performance issues, but also the loss of undo across frames as well as the loss of many other operations that should work across frame borders. Onionskins for example are awkward to setup and then appear as normal layers in your images, instead of being invisible or somehow special.

      However, none of this come as a surprise or is the fault of GAP itself, since it is all the natural consequence of Gimps layer system not being all that flexible and GAP then just being a hack around all that. A proper way to fix the issue would involve to first make Gimps layer system more flexible, adding cloning, special layers, groups, etc. and then adding a new animation system on top of that, so that a frame can be handled as proper layer group. With GEGL getting closer that might happen one day, but it still might take a while.

    100. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, it's spelt man, not MAN.

      And set your $PAGER to less -X.

    101. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Digicrat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. The best source of ideas on improving the user interface of an application comes not just from UI 'experts,' but from the actual users of the program.

      This isn't a question of foss vs commercial software (I can name a few of both categories with horrible/buggy UIs), but an issue of design philosophy. If the developers are open to constructive feedback (and yes, not all design comments are constructive), then they will make a better program.

    102. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you actually used AutoCAD, say?

      Yes I have. (I'm an avid Emacs user too) You're right, the command line in Acad is great, but it's the combination of the command line (and its scriptability using AutoLisp) with the UI that makes it truly useful (e.g., as you say, the fact that each time a point is required, it may be entered numerically as well as interactively using e.g. snapping). Acad was written by judicious and wise people. If it had been written by pure click'n'drool advocates, it would only have a GUI. If it had been written by die-hard "GUIs are for losers" Unix freaks, it would only have a command line.

    103. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jawtheshark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And yet, for me vi is immensely more usable than Notepad, GEdit and the like. Sure, I learnt it over time, but it is so extremely efficient. It wouldn't be the first time that I type :wq to end a Notepad session.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    104. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 1

      Remember that Lisp-y language with the turtle for drawing? Completely text based, interactive drawing. You can also write javascript, microsoft shell script, and a few other languages to control/use photoshop.

      Yeah. Sure you can. Please come back if professional designers or artists create their drawings using Logo or Javascript exclusively. You may not be an artist, but other people are :-P

    105. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is overrated! The point of software is for the USER. If the user of your software (even if they are a chemist) says the interface sucks, it sucks. Coming back with "your criticism isn't useful, because you arn't a UI designer yourself" is bullshit.

    106. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take it to mean "Command line for *computer* experts"

    107. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by lennier · · Score: 1

      So OSS is less like a restaurant and more like the kitchen in a backpackers hostel?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    108. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's definitely true, most people that code want their programs to be used and as such are unlikely indeed to leave usability issues in when they know how to fix them.

      I'm not really sure why open source is getting blamed here, commercial programs are often times just as bad or worse, and at least with open source, I can use it for a few months or even years before deciding if I want to contribute.

      Sometimes knowing all the ins and outs of a program makes it harder to make an interface that is useful for those starting out or that don't have all the information. Ideally the learning curve should be relatively gentle and long enough to deal with necessary complexities.

      Having a gentle curve that is too short ends you up sort of where Windows is. With the program making most of the decisions and with the tools to override things hidden in a hard to access area. Assuming that one can even override them in the first place.

    109. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hedwards · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That depends, it's not always that straightforward. A while back, I reported a bug to the coder on a program I use, when I reported it, I wasn't sure whether it was a bug or whether the button was labeled in a confusing way. It turned out to be a bug, but was indistinguishable from an UI problem.

      I personally try whenever I can to include a suggestion about fixing it. The suggestion isn't always the best, but when I can come up with a suggestion it makes it a bit more clear to the person that's hopefully going to fix it what the real problem is.

      That being said, sometimes there is no way of providing a suggestion, usually because the UI is so confusing that somebody without knowledge of the internals doesn't have even the slightest idea about how the UI is supposed to work.

    110. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by eloki · · Score: 1

      Well I think we should be honest here. Most feedback on OSS projects isn't by design or usability experts; this isn't to say they're wrong or should be ignored, but most users are just that - users, not UI professionals. So while feedback is valuable, there isn't some intellectual weight to all user feedback.

      But separately to this, I think code contributions are simply easier for the developers to evaluate. UI suggestions are relatively subjective and tactile - while you can imagine how it might behave, in the end you need an implementation (or a bunch of UI mockups) to get a feel for how it might behave and whether it's superior to the status quo.

      The question is, who is going to code up this implementation or the UI mockups for everyone to evaluate? The developers have a bunch of existing tasks they already want to do or are working on (features, bug fixes etc.) and may not have the mental energy to implement mockups every time someone suggests a UI improvement. This is especially true if it's a complex suggestion that's more than just "the list should be made into a drop-down".

      So without having an extra developer who makes UI tweaking their prime focus, I think it does fall to those suggesting to come up with "the code", because that lets people evaluate it. Ideally "the code" really is code, but having a mockup only in screenshots is better than nothing.

      It comes down to making it as easy as possible for people to prioritise the change you want. Implementations are worth so much more than ideas - a working mediocre idea is better than a good idea that's just sitting in everyone's heads.

    111. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Delkster · · Score: 1

      The whole source of this problem is that most programmers can't design (or follow UI guidelines)

      Not to mention that UI design guidelines -- or any design guidelines for that matter -- don't work all that well if you just try to follow them brainlessly without understanding the rationale behind them. Almost any non-trivial design guideline touches on things that are complex enough not to really be covered by the guidelines alone, and blindly following them can even cause the "designer" to work against the very reasons why the guideline has been enacted.

      Guidelines are obviously good to have because they can help avoid the common pitfalls and also because they promote consistency, but they alone aren't nearly enough for a good or even decent UI design. Neither are processes.

    112. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... use the OS's own widgets and don't force your "pretty graphics" onto your users.

      QFT. Nothing worse than firing up some program to be greeted with a flashy skin with non-standard controls. I don't mind if you want to throw skinning into your program. Hell I might even use it if there's a skin I like. But don't go inflicting some garish, confusing skin on me on my first run of the program.

    113. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Delkster · · Score: 1

      Even if they can tell that the food is bad, that doesn't necessarily mean they know why it's bad or how to make it better.

    114. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by dal20402 · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, it's based on the premise that usability is objectively measurable, which it is.

      Variations around the edges don't change the fundamental point that, for obvious example, Photoshop is more usable than the Gimp.

    115. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by pizzach · · Score: 1

      (2) People who can't cook have no business eating food and complaining when it makes them puke.

      Actually in many cases it's more like you went to a friends place to eat dinner and started critiquing the food at the table. Even after being kicked out of the house for saying, "This food tastes monkey dung with bananas, please fix it," you still can't figure out why your fiend got so mad. Done incorrectly, complaining is extremely impolite. The wife of the fictitious friend went to some real trouble to create the meal and it's not like you're paying for it.

      The other problem with complaining about usability is that it is much more subjective than people like to think.

      • Mac OS X and Gnome have put a lot of money and research into usability. Even so, Gnome constantly get's flamed by the tech community. For Mac OS X, there are a lot of users who just can't get into the "Mac" way of doing things and never adjust.
      • Some interfaces work much better after you get over the learning curve. This applies to a lot of professional apps.
      • Some users just like to complain to complain. "You changed my favorite button you bastard!"

      Food also has many similar problems. Some you have to acquire a taste for. (Eating raw fish, beer, etc. It becomes more delicious the more you eat it, even if at first it makes your gag reflex go off.) Some people just plain don't like certain foods.("I can't drink water.", "Coke tastes like medicine, which is why I don't drink it.") Other people will not eat some foods just because it in not a taste they are used to, and they don't care to try expanding their favorite foods.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    116. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      And I disagree that free software is generally worse than commercial software. I've noticed that in most applications there is usually one or two dominant closed source players then one dominant open source player surrounded by circle of specialized open source alternatives for specific situations, then a sea of incompetent closed source software.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    117. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Mycroft+Holmes+IV · · Score: 1

      Let's at LEAST get the line right.

      (2) People who can't cook have no business eating (free) food and complaining when it makes them puke.

    118. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Gazzonyx · · Score: 3, Funny

      The issue is more general than that. The usability experts who can't code *can* improve usability, by telling the developers what to do.

      It's more of an issue of *just* criticising, instead of offering constructive opinions. If all you can do is say "this sucks" but not say why or how it can be improved, then I agree, you have no business in software. If, on the other hand, you can find a way to improve it, I'm sure many people will welcome your advice and implement it.

      RE: Bugfix, Usability is a matter of opinion

      *WONTFIX*

      Usage works for me.

      *Ducks and runs*

      Note to self: fork codebase. Send snarky message at 1.0 release. ;)

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    119. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Requiem18th · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Me thinks is (justified) laziness. I'm a front end developer so I have to deal with the usability (and prettiness) of my company's applications.

        I don't think it is a matter of lacking understanding usability. Firstly I know usability when I look at it. Things like following Fitt's law, using CUA shortcuts, ubiquitous undo, ubiquitous copy/paste, ubiquitous autocomplete, ubiquitous drag+drop. I know all that shit. Secondly they are *using* their software, they know when things could be better. ...but...

        In my work, I do loads and loads of screens and dialogs that are going to be used once a month by administrative personal. My time is invested in making front ends for everything that management, marketing, HR or R&D could fancy to tweak.

        There simply is no time to make things as pretty or as usable as I know they should be. As soon as an interface is usable at all, I'm moved to the next feature/project.

        So, I think this is what happens to many OSS projects. You can spend all afternoon making that widget just perfect or you can play with the kids at home.

        On the other hand, When talking about gui apps with the back end guy, it really seems he is usability-blind in *some* respects. His idea of usability is to have dozens of microscopic buttons in auto hiding panels but then again he's KDE and I'm Gnome so it is expectable. It really seems to be a matter of taste, and free weekends...

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    120. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      DO NOT WANT any crappy RTF editing in my slashdot!!

      Wiki markup, reStructured text or Markdown syntax would be preferred!

      While there, ad a 'log in' form in the ajaxy comment form as an alternative to the captcha.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    121. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly, you have never heard of Fitts' Law, Hick's Law, GOMS analyses, or any of the other objective measurements of usability. Drop everything right now and go read Jef Raskin's The Humane Interface .

    122. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by mblase · · Score: 1

      "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      I believe the original article is making a similar point, viz., coders who can't design shouldn't be pretentiously ignoring the feedback of people who can.

    123. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      "The convolution of your pathetically ignorant ideas pushed by your primitive instincts betrays your rotund inability to grasp the complexity of the processes and the myriad of possibilities that this structure enables, ergo, I cannot be but inescapably forced to ignore and disregard your suggestions. Knowing that your pity and irrational sense of self worth is going to be affected negatively from this message I suggest you to recall that you are only human and thus bound to regular failure as any other one."

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    124. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by typidemon · · Score: 2, Informative

      The screenshots are beautiful. The description sounds lovely.

      Aesthetics and marketing are not User Centred Design, but a lot of people think it is.

    125. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by RedBear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It absolutely amazes me how many people like yourself get modded +5, Insightful in every single discussion like this, when you're all dead wrong. It amazes me how you think you're being logical and can go to incredibly great lengths to justify the continuing elitism of "if you don't know how to build the car you have no business driving it" kind of attitudes, which is exactly what you're espousing. Did you build your own car? Do you know how every single piece of it works? Can you recreate it from scratch? If not, shut your stupid pie hole.

      This idea that you have to be the world's foremost expert in a particular field in order to be allowed to open your mouth is just so unbelievably ridiculous that I can't understand how it keeps being perpetuated so strongly even on a site that is supposed to be full of relatively intelligent people.

      You're all constantly using obscure corner cases to try and demonstrate that any end user who ever criticizes the work of a "coder" is an idiot and wrong in all cases simply because they don't understand the precious code. Sure, users often misunderstand what the actual issue is with a program that's not working for them, so what? The fact remains that there is an issue, and blaming the user every single time solves nothing.

      The longer attitudes like this get perpetuated, the longer most open source software will remain the underdog that most non-coders won't touch with a ten foot pole because it's so baffling or aggravating to use. What all you elite coders need to come to grips with is that you are too close to the code. You understand the code too well and it blinds you to the real life usability problems. You don't realize how much your knowledge of the code warps the way you see the interface. You have to learn to forget what you know about the guts of the software and look at it with fresh eyes, like any new user does.

      The real question here: If you aren't making the software for people who don't know how to code, what are you doing putting a GUI on it in the first place? That is after all the entire purpose of a GUI in most cases, is it not? To make software accessible to and usable by people who don't know how to write the code themselves?

      Jeebus cripes, folks. Get over yourselves. Stick to writing command-line stuff if you don't want to respond to interface criticism or suggestions like a reasonable human being.

      Oh, and stop using Firefox as if it shows how great all open source code is. It's one application that has been worked on by teams of very talented people for several years and is supported by a business. Of course it's one of the best, but 99% of the open source software world falls a few miles short of that. Face up to that fact and you'll be better for it.

    126. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 0, Troll

      Well it's written in Python. It's got a lot of bugs.

    127. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I RTFA, and IMHO found some counterdictory logic in the arguments of the author. From doing this stuff for a generation I have found three areas that have been problem areas for any Application. The first is a User's Manual for "ALL" features of the Application. But a Software Manual is Not Enough. When the Applications's Creator envisions their creation, the examples that can use their creation are tragically left in the mind of the Application's Creator. The third issue is the Maintenance of the Application. From my perspective, Applications are like living things, they have a beginning, growth, and decline. What keeps the Application in Growth is Maintenance of the Application. Sometimes others will adjust the Growth in a different direction of the Application's Creator, sometimes without the the Creator's acceptance. If an Application is to survive, and continue to Grow, then it must adapt by changing to the environment it is allowed to exist in. And one of the most successful ways to kill an Application is to NOT write about how it can solve types of problems.

    128. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by sir+fer · · Score: 1

      And no, it doesn't say more about me than the software if I find that almost all GUIs in Linux are shit and that the command line is more usable.

      Um yes it does. If you find almost all Linux GUIs hard to use I suggest you take a test for autism or dyslexia. You may just be retarded.

      --
      Debian FTW ;o)
    129. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by sir+fer · · Score: 1

      Why should software be different from any other industry?

      Because it is different to any other industry, as in *not the same* .Go read a book and you might learn something.

      --
      Debian FTW ;o)
    130. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by sir+fer · · Score: 0, Troll

      It is whinging idiots like you that spread FUD about OSS. I have no problem learning how to use OSS software I need to use. Go do some learning yourself, all software has idiosyncrasies, because it is produced by idiosyncratic beings. Get a grip and shut the hell up.

      --
      Debian FTW ;o)
    131. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by sir+fer · · Score: 1

      There's some degree of truth in that, but since most people have essentially similar minds it makes sense to assume that certain types of operation make sense to the vast majority of people.

      Yes because as we all know, the majority knows best and can never be manipulated or misled. Stop pulling "facts" out of your arse. Most people are not of similar a similar mindset, otherwise you would not need to hold elections.

      --
      Debian FTW ;o)
    132. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by sir+fer · · Score: 1

      I'm going to take issue with this. Basically you're saying if you can't do X, then your critique is useless.

      But mostly it is meaningless if you don't know something about what you're talking about. I cannot sing at a professional level but I have received some singing training, therefore my critique is more useful to the recipient. Likewise with software, I can code to a reasonable level but not well enough to write commercial software, so I DON'T ANNOY PEOPLE who write OSS with "critiques" like "this / that sucks", I would be more likely to offer helpful suggestions. What you pass of as "critique" would be, by definition, unhelpful criticism.

      --
      Debian FTW ;o)
    133. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      I'll agree to (2) if all programmers who can't design stop working, too. But that would be just as stupid. Have you never heard of specialisation?

      I won't even go near (1), since it's obvious that you are one of those people who simply doesn't get it and has no interest in trying to understand the issue.

    134. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. just because I know good aesthetics and good composition, but I don't know how to photograph or how to do professional graphic design. even though my graphic design friends always come to me and ask for ideas and to critique there work.
      Same goes to software I feel. When video games are made, do you think coders decide how the game should play?

    135. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I think you got modded up because you're female.

      Your post is blatantly self-centered. In addition, it's painfully obvious that you've never designed a UI for general users and so your post is anecdotal at best.

      >Personally, I find FBSD, Debian, Slackware, and the majority of GNU software to be quite usable.

      Me, too.

      >Speaking of which, tried Windows lately?

      Yup. I use it daily alongside other OS'. Not just Windows XP: Windows Server 2003, and, we've a few Windows 2000 boxes kicking around that refuse to die... and, Windows 98SE VMs for a REALLY OLD app that we have to keep around for awhile yet. Oh, and a few NetWare servers, and a few really old Unix servers.

      >Now to me, that's really hard to use!

      I'm sorry to hear that.

    136. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Nah, mod parent (and gp) down.

      The whole source of this problem is that most programmers can't design

      On the contrary. Most programmers can do (and do in fact) design. Hell, *anybody* can design with a little common sense and some "inspiration" from similar stuff. You won't get perfect stuff, but if it's good for me it can be enough for most people most of the time.
      The real problem is that almost no designers can program, even the simplest thing in Visual Basic. And are proud of it. Kudos to the few ones that can.

    137. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by lpq · · Score: 1

      "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should work and look, then learn to code it. Otherwise, you're just a critic of the kind that the NYT doesn't hire.

      Why should Designers have to program when so many programmers get by without knowing Design?

    138. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by alien_life_form · · Score: 1

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user. If you learned how to use some other system first and now expect that any other way of doing
      things isn't "usable" enough, that's just plain old resistance to change. It says more about you than it does about the usability of the
      software in question.

      Right. Next time I buy a car sporting the clutch pedal where I am expecting to find the rearview mirror, I won't complain, lest somebody thinks I am "resisting to change".

      By and large, users should just shut up and put up smiling with reams of seemingly bewildering and unjustified interface and behavior changes at the whim of the first coders, because, after all, what else have they got to do with their lives?

      Coders, on the other hand, have been handed the holy task of exploring "groundbreaking new paradigms".

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software. If you think you really know how an interface should
      work and look, then learn to code it.

      Right on target again. I also think that engineers who design engines and cannot turn them on a lathe (and also design and manufacture personally the molds for meting, etc.) have no business in mechanical design: why are they called "engine"ers, uh?. Also electrical engineers who cant personally ion-implant silicon wafers.

      Personally, I find FBSD, Debian, Slackware, and the majority of GNU software to be quite usable...

      Sort of explains most of the preceding quotes...

      Look: my editor of choice, Emacs (no religion wars, please) has been hardheadedly sticking to quite a few absurd guns (Backspace is for help, Del for delete previous, Ctl-d for delete current, C-Y is paste, C-W is cut...) fore years now.

      Because I adopted it in the early 90's - and even for a world where UI consistency was widely disregarded some of its choices were already quite bizarre (the C-H thingy, especially) - I'm too used to it to give it up now (even at the risk of royally screwing up in the first few seconds of an ap switch).

      Today an application that attempted 1/100th of the weird modifications that Emacs does to the accepted behavior would get the boot from my app-space in one nanosecond flat. Sure, I can customize most key-sequences: that also implies I would not know my way around the plain vanilla app when I find I have to use it, so no, thanks.

      And that's just beginning to scratch the surface of GNU apps that are borderline unusable even for an intended highly technical audience:

      • iptables (formerly ipfwadm, ipfilter... I have long ceased counting). Incompatible name and interface changes for doing exactly the same things. Lots of exposed wires and internals in the interface. Bundling of seemingly unrelated tasks (e.g. NAT and firewalling) in the same tool. etc.
      • raidtools, mdadm, and the whole big hairy mess of disk management tools.
      • SElinux, the tool every admin turns off at first boot.

      And these are only the admin level things (which is mostly my territory). Though I use them sparsely, I have the feeling that userland and desktop apps tend to suffer from a similar "design" attitude.

      Cheers,

      alf

    139. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by alien_life_form · · Score: 1

      ... Make it do what it says, and NOTHING else. If you want the can opener too, write another app, or put it somewhere away from the user.

      Partly agree, but it's got to be more involved or Outlook (which I personally loathe) would not be the email client of choice.

      ...MS wizards are simple. Nobody uses them.

      Dubious. I've seen several users using them. I do use some them (disk shares, network folders) myself, even when I could type "net something something something" in a cmd box. OTOH, some of "them" other wizards get actually more in the way then anything else.

      ...The rule should be: if you can decide for the user, don't confront him with the question, let the program figure it for the user. Allow configuration, don't force it.

      Totally agree.

      alf

    140. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by alien_life_form · · Score: 1

      Your analogy doesn't follow. Better would be:

      "How did the carpenter building his own home respond to the (voluntary) suggestions of a professional architect?"

      ...

      That home would not be inflicted on the general public - builder and user are the one and same individual.

      Besides, most bricklayers and carpenters know more about home usability than the average coder does about sw usability (this discussion adding ample evidence to this POV).

      alf

    141. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by famebait · · Score: 1

      There is rather a lot more to how people behave than "knowledge", and some of them are in deed (as far as we can tell) innate. Good interfaces do play on those things, be it through explicit knowledge of them, trial and failure, or intuition.

      In addition comes course all the cultural stuff, and you are right that this is hugely important too.

      But if you haven't grasped (explicitly or tacitly) for example some of the basic human limitations in attention, perception, information retention, and processing, chances are you will make horrible interfaces.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    142. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The goal of a good interface is that you don't have to take the time to understand it, at least not to archieve basic use.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    143. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      UI is just a thin layer though. Some problems are too deep to realistically fix with a facelift. For example if your FOSS developer has designed a tool that requires you to learn some convoluted homebrewed gammar to pass in as a file then no amount of UI tinkering is going to fix it.

      Similarly some projects like libraries dont have a UI (beyond a clean API I suppose). However a fundamental mistake in the architecture is unlikely to be fixable with any amount of API rejigging.

      User experience needs to be implemented from the ground up which is a fundamental difference in how FOSS and commercial programmers operate. FOSS guys, at least the hobbiest kind tend to think about "Im going to write an implementation of algorithm X or tech Y". In the commercial word it starts with "We're going to solve user problem Z".

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    144. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rule should be: if you can decide for the user, don't confront him with the question, let the program figure it for the user. Allow configuration, don't force it. Think Skype. Think Ubuntu. Now think xinetd...

      The Horror!! The Horror!! Keep it away from me!!!!!!

    145. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by The_reformant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Great post and you've perfectly highlighted why the fast proportin of open source software has a tiny market share even when the marginal cost is zero.

      In the real world companies which succeed are ones which either reduce the costs of their customers or make their customers more money. If your customer isnt reducing costs because they cant use your software effectively then even if its free the TCO is much higher than commercial software since the customers time will very quickly become more valuable than the software.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    146. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But surely, they pay for the food!

    147. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jimicus · · Score: 1

      No, you can tell us that you don't like an interface, and make suggestions on what you think might make it better for you. Reality? The interface may suck - but that doesn't mean you have any idea as to why it sucks. Add to that? You're suggestions are not likely to be all that good for fixing the design problems.

      You don't pay that much attention to bug reports that just say "it crashes", why would you pay any attention to a usability report that says "it sucks"?

    148. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by delt0r · · Score: 1

      My Cousin is a construction engineer. He often gets designs that are quite impossible with todays materials from architects. Floors that are too thin and have huge spans without supports etc.

      In software usability its not that different. I have often had request by the UI folks that are quite impossible (requiring almost sentient type AI, or well into the NP-hard with large n).

      There are few disciplines where proper knowledge of the underlying system would not make the designer better at what they do. Far too often they are deliberately ignorant and unwilling to learn in my experience....

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    149. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by delt0r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Great point.

      They are taking about UI and usability as if its a solved problem. Its not even close to a solved problem.

      A good example is my mum using windows vista. It was more than different enough from XP that she could not use it at all (we got as far as, "this is firefox, now you can use the internet"). I find word imposable to use, it never does anything *i expect* it to do. Then there the whole host of tasks that are not simple to visually represent on a screen.

      One of the easiest system i have ever used was a older radar system from a F16 and IANARO (Radar Operator). It had buttons around the side that told you what they did much like ATM machines.

      Personally we need a lot more experimental design rather than just blindly sticking to current UI dogma. An example that comes to mind is perhaps the wii.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    150. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by tyrione · · Score: 1

      How did the architect respond to your suggestions for improvements?

      In his analogy, he's the Architect and the software developer is the Carpenter. The Carpenters and Architects in the real world work and challenge one another to come to a compromise and get the building done, even when the Architect's "ideals" aren't practical.

    151. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by gr8dude · · Score: 1

      Such documents exist; Apple and Gnome have great HIGs (Human Interface Guidelines). Microsoft provides similar documentation for Vista.

      The problem, in my opinion, is caused by the following:
      - people think "I don't have time for the HIG, I already know what I need";
      - they get started using UI design tools and simply drag'n'drop widgets (Borland's IDEs are so easy to use, they gave birth to an entire generation of coders who "can do GUI"); afterwards they are too lazy to start from scratch because "so much has been done".

      I once started a quest for HIGs, and downloaded and read every single one I could find. Since then I became more aware of the existing problems, and learned about their solutions.

      In the end it boils down to taking your time to read a text (they are quite short too, I remember that after the Gnome HIG I was upset it ended so fast).

      URLs:
      http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
      http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html
      http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx

    152. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      After reading his post and yours, I think you read his wrong. He didn't say you have to be an expert to tell someone how to fix their UI. He said you have to actually know WTF you're talking about.

      A billion messages of 'Your interface sucks' is nearly useless. It can only confirm that there is a problem, which was probably obvious long ago if it got a billion messages about it.

      Messages of 'Your X tool doesn't work right' is nearly the same.

      'Your X tool doesn't work like X tool in program Y' is better.

      'Your X tool doesn't do Z' is good. This is the first really usable message. It still doesn't say how to fix the problem, but it at least states what the user wants.

      'Your X tool should (long explanation)' is much better yet. It can only be given by someone actually experienced with whatever work the tool is supposed to do.

      'If you did W, your X tool would be a lot better' is the best. It tells the programmer exactly what's needed in no uncertain terms. It would need someone that could write the tool themselves, and hits the attitude you think the previous poster has.

      Good developers appreciating anything from 'good' up. Great developers listen to all the complaints, but the first 2 kinds can only be filed in the 'another complaint' file and the third is only good if you want to rip off someone else's idea exactly... They can't really serve much use and largely waste the developer's time.

      Complaints about GIMP illustrate this nicely. I've seen everything up to 'GIMP isn't photoshop' and never anything better. I've even voiced my own 'GIMP's interface sucks' complaints, but I can't see how to make it better, either. I just know I hate it. (I still use it, though, because I can't afford $900 for Photoshop for a hobby.) If I could express what I wanted to be different about GIMP, I'd be a lot more help, and I recognize that.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    153. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, we are not talking about linux, we are talking about open source.
      The fact that most OSS is for Linux does not make it the only option.

      But a lot of OSS-Authors truly should take a look at usability terms.

      If it works for you it does not implement it couldnt be better the other way, even for you

    154. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't like the interface that's literally, "your problem". You can solve it yourself but you don't desire to. Seriously, why would anyone pay the slightest attention to your complaint? Am I missing something? If something you got for free is not suitable for you to use, and you don't care to fix it, maybe, don't use it.

      What part of "WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION." don't you understand?

    155. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure you can, just nobody has to pay the slightest bit of attention to you.

    156. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      Depends on design paradigm. If all projects employed a strict separation of UI and business logic (for instance MVC, et al) it would be "simple" to redesign the UI without having to deal with all the nitty gritty details of the code of the application.

      Sort of similar to why there is a thriving environment for designing "skins" and "themes" for certain applications where the UI has sufficiently been separated from the logic and allowing non-coders to play around with the appearance without understanding the rest of the application.

      This is however expensive and doesn't really offer anything until your userbase is bigger than yourself...

    157. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by cyb97 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a more appropriate saying is "the right tool for the job". For some jobs, a command line will never be appropriate and vice versa.

    158. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that is the difference between a user and a usability expert. The user feels there's something wrong with the interface and is frustrated by it, but can't exactly pinpoint the problem(s). A usability expert will actually highlight the problems, tell you why your choices were wrong and suggest fixes.

      So when you say you need "constructive criticism" you actually want feedback from a professional GUI designer / usability expert.

      Many developers or stakeholders in various (F)OSS projects hastily repress user complaints with this argument. "Show me the code/patch or shut up" actually translates to "you're not a trained GUI designer so you can't actually suggest improvements; since nobody bothered to bring some "constructive criticism" (see definition above) to the table, I have to conclude there's nothing wrong with the GUI I coded."

      So there it is, not acknowledging the need for a professional and repelling those pesky users at the same time. The developer wins the argument since no designer bothered to input some feedback into how the project can be improved.

    159. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      This is just the wrong attitude that the rest of the discussion is about. I'm working with ux on a professional basis and if there is one thing I've learnt is that CS people are usually the last to see the problems. Often they become to locked into the mindset of "it's like that for a reason" even though the reason might not be sound at all.

      In UX more eyes are really better. All research has shown that this is so (look at some of the more revered ux papers like Nielsens focusgroup studies and so on).

      Back to your chemist analogy (which isn't really appropriate btw) a user might offer both problems, and solutions. A simple suggestion like a different scent, thinner solution so it would get into corners (ie. adding more water) are problems and solutions baked into one.

      A professional will usually be better at finding the solutions, but the end user is ultimately the one that finds the most complex problems.

    160. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Comments like yours never cease to amaze me. There are entire professional disciplines, complete with high-level degrees that are devoted to usability and design. Surprisingly, these disciplines are MUCH older than the "code" that you seem to think is so important.

      "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      As a Systems Engineer (and former designer) at a software company, I can't even know where to begin to tell you how WRONG, pig-headed, and ignorant this comment is. Let's flip that around on you. Programmers who can't understand simple, proven UI concepts shouldn't be allowed to work in a software company. Lemme put it another way. My job exists to tell you code guys HOW to code something, because without my input, you guys code trash that only other code-junkies would appreciate. Our customers demand better.

    161. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Jeezus people, nobody is saying one thing is better than another thing, only that a single thing either sucks or doesn't suck. Free software (mostly) sucks because it is free and it is free (mostly) because it sucks. If it didn't suck, it wouldn't be free, and if it weren't free it wou.....errr, it would probably still suck.

    162. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      IF the developer designs it to the spec, then the spec sucks, not the code. But, how often does that really happen at your places of employment? That's the problem with this thread--developers get pretty clear specs on how something should look and work, but then developers go out of their way to make something that looks and works nothing like the spec they were given (i.e. told to produce by people in charge of them). Rogue developers suck. Bad specs suck. People who can't take criticism suck.

    163. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many things don't need to be, and shouldn't be, "10,000 tools and settings in a single application". You mentioned 3dsMax, of course, which is in the region where complicated apps make more sense than the UNIX way, but lots of things that aren't developer stuff are also best done as a collection of tools (even hundreds of tools) that do one thing and do it well. Maybe not directly from a system shell, but like AutoCad, for example. (Got the architects covered -- that does use a CLI! I've no clue what teachers use...)

      And it's not clear to me why having to look at documentation is bad (It is important, of course, to have good documentation, and to know how to use it. Try apropos, BTW!); the great thing about those 200ish commands is that you have to look up 90% of them... that means the 10% you use 90% of the time is immediately available, not dragging through menus.

      Speaking of menus, they're essential to make something with "10,000 tools and settings" fit on the screen; the secret is to make the menus as contextually sensible as possible, and to provide alternate ways of accessing the most frequently used items. An AutoCad-style CLI is excellent; configurable toolbars are a poor substitute.

    164. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by mc900ftjesus · · Score: 1

      Steve Jobs and his giant ego take issue with your remark.

    165. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Slashdot's own form buttons come do mind (the Preview, Quote Parent, Options and Cancel buttons really seem out of place with the Aqua form widgets and probably with all the other OS widgets as well).

      Not to mention that the "submit" and "continue" editing buttons break proximity rules. Those two buttons should be on opposite sides of each other (as far away apart as possible), not next to each other. The most "damaging" button should be furthest removed. In this case, the "submit" button should appear on the far right, as there is no going back once you hit submit (but there is if you hit preview, or continue editing, for example).

    166. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I recently got a MacBook Pro and find it nigh unusable. As a student of human nature, I'm aware that this is largely due to my own conditioning. So I don't trot around saying the problems are cause by its being a Mac, or an Apple, or Proprietary.

      If only more people were like you, about 99% of the flame wars around here would disappear.

      "Hi, I'm a PC. I just bought a Mac and this thing is soooo retarded, it doesn't even have a Start button!"

    167. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Another example would be when Windows programs revert to accepting the default labels, such as "Save" when the button really is used to "attach" a file. You all know the drill. You want to add some file to a project you have open, so you use the "add" function of the software, navigate to the source file in the standard windows dialogue, click on the file, then click the "Save"??? button. Is it really that hard to change the text of the button, or is that just me, a DESIGNER, just being ignorant, and providing proof that I have to place in software since I can't code?

    168. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by pbhj · · Score: 1

      If all you can do is say "this sucks" but not say why or how it can be improved, then I agree, you have no business in software.

      I disagree, but not strongly.

      http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ is useful IMO. A lot of it is users saying "this sucks". If you want to improve, then if people say what the worst bits are you know where to focus your attention. That's helpful. Not half as helpful as suggestions on how to fix it, not a patch on a patch (sorry). But it helps, doesn't it?

    169. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Firehed · · Score: 1

      No, most programmers can design an architecture. Most programmers can create an interface that's functional at some level. At least among most Windows and Linux software, it seems that there's a rare few that can make software that's easy to use for its primary purpose and accessible/customizable enough to deal with those down-and-dirty tasks (OS X programmers tend to be better this way; I'm sure it's partly cultural, but they also understand how important consistency is between apps and how Fucking Annoying it is when you come across a non-conforming app).

      Don't get me wrong - most half-decent programmers can implement someone else's design with no problem (that's what you meant by 'inspiration', right?). That's not being a designer. A good designer can start with nothing and create an attractive and easy-to-use interface. With very rare exception, programmers throw too many options and preferences in the user's face and make an overwhelming, hard-to-use interface. And that's the crux of the problem.

      Unfortunately for the Free software community, the majority of good UI designers are off getting paid well by Apple. I think Microsoft may even be bringing someone who understands UI on board soon.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    170. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      A billion messages of 'Your interface sucks' is nearly useless. It can only confirm that there is a problem, which was probably obvious long ago if it got a billion messages about it.

      Of course but if you didn't get those messages you'd be happily considering it working. Someone has to send the messages.

      'Your X tool doesn't do Z' is good. This is the first really usable message. It still doesn't say how to fix the problem, but it at least states what the user wants.

      That's for functionality, usability includes things where the user can't even see what it needs, all he notices is that it works badly.

      'If you did W, your X tool would be a lot better' is the best. It tells the programmer exactly what's needed in no uncertain terms. It would need someone that could write the tool themselves, and hits the attitude you think the previous poster has.

      Why can't you figure out that W is needed without having users file bug reports? That's what an expert designer does for your team, figure out solutions to the user's problems. Neither the user nor the programmer is really qualified to design a UI, one sets requirements, the other produces an implementation but the bridging step, the design, is something a designer does.

      Complaints about GIMP illustrate this nicely. I've seen everything up to 'GIMP isn't photoshop' and never anything better. I've even voiced my own 'GIMP's interface sucks' complaints, but I can't see how to make it better, either. I just know I hate it. (I still use it, though, because I can't afford $900 for Photoshop for a hobby.) If I could express what I wanted to be different about GIMP, I'd be a lot more help, and I recognize that.

      Well, you can sit around hoping you will get lucky and attract a user who knows how to fix your problem or you can get an expert and have him find the solution.

      That's really what it boils down to, the user sets the requirements but doesn't know how to turn them into a program, the designer takes the requirements and designs a plan for how the software should work and what approaches it uses and the coder implements the design. You can have people skilled in more than one area, sure, but you have to recognize that these are separate skills and someone who has one of them does not automatically gain the others.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    171. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Code is not a quality test for usability though, someone could be a masterful coder but that doesn't mean he'll give you useful sugggestions for UI improvement.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    172. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Most opensource projects try to produce something useful, not just ego masturbation. What's the point of writing software when the intended userbase doesn't find it useful?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    173. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 1

      I agree completely that the end user is a good source of identifying problems. All my post was pointing out is that it isn't elitist to understand that the end user isn't usually a good source of identify the solution to a UI related problem. Is that really hard to understand? The chemist example is a good example precisely because you can't expect someone without a good education and skillset to design a solution to fix a problem with, for example, a floor cleaner that has trouble with a certain type of stain. OF COURSE they are the most likely to identify the problem, however - they just need help by someone trained to do the job, in order to fix the problem. That is NOT an elitist attitude.

    174. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has a history of having loose guidelines that revolve around some set of rules. I've never understood that - why would you have rules as guidelines? If you notice, almost all of them tell you specific things to do that don't apply to all cases. The biggest problem I've had with MS apps is consistency, something Apple has been much better at (assigning certain keys to certain actions, for instance, and making them logical - alt-F4 is NOT logical for quit)

      For a while, Apple neglected their HIG for so long a wikiwas set up to address them (note that the wiki is down for revamp), but they've since updated the document. There were a number of new controls that went unaddressed for something like 2 years.

      I've not had time or necessity to read GNOME or KDE guidelines.

      The real problem is many apps need to be developed with HIG in mind from the ground up and in OSS they usually aren't, resulting in a jumbled mess like GIMP (called "feature first" design), then they try to fix it and the power users complain because they're used to the "old" way.

    175. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      There seem to be plenty of projects in which the dev team implement "features" that they themselves consider the end of the world in terms of Awesome, despite criticism from the user base. Case and point, see the Pidgin fork. Telling the users that you know best what they want is the height of ego masturbation and arrogance.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    176. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When they make statements like non-free software is ethically tainted, and anybody who uses anything other than free software cannot possibly be making a reasonable choice because they are uninformed, or lazy, etc. then they open themselves up to valid criticisms to make their software work as well as other options.

      Why, because you feel peer-pressured to use software you don't feel is perfect enough? Listen, it doesn't matter what you do for a living, everybody's a fucking critic. But in the FOSS user world, every other critic thinks he's an expert as well. Meanwhile, the poor spare time coder is just doing his or her best to get projects done while juggling a "real job", family life, etc, and really doesn't have time to listen to proposals of every know-nothing who "wants to contribute" but can't even be bothered to do real testing, write documentation, or file bug reports, much less *write* *code*. There is absolutely nothing surprising or "wrong" about this. It will just be a while until enough projects become sufficiently mature that people with zero tolerance for learning will have all the FOSS choices they need to give proprietary software the boot for good. And you know what? I'm okay with that, because I'm not the one who finds good software "too hard to learn", and no-one's paying me to make it brain dead easy, which means I still have to save enough bodily energy to make a living everyday. Yes, I'd love to make everything so easy to use my grandparents could do it, RIGHT NOW, but I'm only human and my survival comes first. Want to hurry the process along? Learn to code, and if for whatever reason that's too much for you, then you can beta test, write documentation, file bug reports, donate money or equipment... IOW, just be a good FOSS citizen. Yes, we have some assholes in our community -- you were expecting what, utopia? :) But in the end, it's very simple -- you believe in the four freedoms enough to learn what you need to learn or you don't. Nobody has a gun to your head.

    177. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      Right, the issue that I have run into is that often the managers looking at the UI have no comprehension of the problem the software is intended to solve. For instance, if you were writing a UI for looking at genetic structures (note: I have no knowledge of this field) then some manager with an MBA and no knowledge of DNA should not look at it and it is too confusing.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    178. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Khammurabi · · Score: 1

      (1) "Usability" is in the mind of the user.

      Yes and no. All users have a mental model of how a system should work. When a design deviates from this model drastically, it creates usability issues. Designs should be intuitive, and should require little explanation (no one ever reads manuals or help files).

      As a UI professional the general rule of thumb I use is if the user doesn't figure it out by his or her second "guess", your design is bad and needs to be redone. Good designs are the ones where the user doesn't really notice the UI (or its relative complexity) at all. Basically in most cases if a user can't "grok" what to do by just looking at it, you have a problem.

      There's also no substitute for conducting usability tests. The results from these tests can't really be argued with, if there's a problem or stumbling block, it needs to be addressed. You'd be surprised how dumb little things like a misplaced button will cause a 2 minute task to average well over 15 minutes.

      (2) "Designers" who can't code have absolutely no business "working" in software.

      Nope. Like everyone else on this thread, I'm calling bullshit on this. In my particular case, I actually am a developer and can code the layouts I design, but that hasn't been my focus (or job) for quite a while now.

      While it definitely helps to have a background in development (or at least a good understanding of what can and can't be done easily on the backend), I wouldn't say it's critical. My assumption with regards to open source projects is that most design suggestions are often summarily shot down or ridiculed, partly because developers rarely understand the reasons why things should be done a certain way (most common response is "that's stupid"), and because the nature of post-UI design often slights the developer who created it by having to change what they implemented.

      The easy usability gains are having a consistent UI (having well defined design and behavior), and sticking to existing standards (unless there is a really good case or gain to be had by ignoring it). Products immediately become inherently more usable if they are consistent in how they present information.

    179. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hitmark · · Score: 1

      or maybe just pragmatic, in the "right tool for the job" kind of way...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    180. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hitmark · · Score: 1

      and yet i see people i know have trouble connecting the soft keys on their mobile phone, with whats on the screen, and prefer a 1 button, 1 action approach (green phone to pick up, red phone to hang up).

      and i have seen just about any desktop metaphor fall on its own sword if taken far enough. its a interesting mental experiment to try and translate computer action into physical actions and see where it starts to become silly.

      like say representing a cd with a image of the cd, then try to map different actions, like burning, onto it.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    181. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by hitmark · · Score: 1

      but then the builder buts the plans for said personal building online for anyone to use and improve.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    182. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Homer1946 · · Score: 1

      It will just be a while until enough projects become sufficiently mature that people with zero tolerance for learning will have all the FOSS choices they need to give proprietary software the boot for good.

      I think you partially misunderstand. For the software coder that graciously makes his work freely available I can certainly understand the sentiment that it is rude to complain and demand yet more. However those that suggest that anybody not using free software is making an amoral choice are in a different boat. They are imposing a duty on themselves. They can't have it both ways. Also in order for the software to get to the point that you envision above, listening to regular users is a necessary step.

      Want to hurry the process along? Learn to code, and if for whatever reason that's too much for you, then you can beta test, write documentation, file bug reports, donate money or equipment... IOW, just be a good FOSS citizen. Yes, we have some assholes in our community -- you were expecting what, utopia? :) But in the end, it's very simple -- you believe in the four freedoms enough to learn what you need to learn or you don't. Nobody has a gun to your head.

      In the modern world not everyone needs to be an expert in everything. In fact, we can't. Some of use need to spend our time maintaining expertise in our chosen fields. In am a physician and I think it is a better use of my time to learn more about disease and treatment than learn to code the tools I use just so I can avoid proprietary versions. I sometimes bristle at the implication that I am amoral for making such a choice. I like free software and I use some. But it is not the only reasonable option.

    183. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by barrkel · · Score: 1

      Use-ability is in the mind of the use-r, eh? Well that's exactly the point! The user (i.e. the customer) is exactly who needs to be pleased, and if they aren't happy, the software is broken, period. Lack of perceived usability in aggregate isn't a user problem - it's a software problem. I fully agree with TFA - it comes down to incentives. Too much open source software is written with the wrong incentives for usability, i.e. with the thought that the non-technical[*] user will be able to use the software efficiently.

      [*] And I emphasize non-technical, because that's what makes software useful: doing a job by abstracting away technical details, so that you don't need to worry about them.

    184. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by frisket · · Score: 1
      if you can decide for the user, don't confront him with the question, let the program figure it for the user

      The problem comes when the programmers or designers do this, but make the wrong default because they are looking at the problem with programmers' or designers' eyes, not users'. It is excruciatingly difficult to persuade programmers and designers to get their software tested for usability by actual users, as well as to get them to accept the results.

    185. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Creepy · · Score: 1

      and this is even part of most if not all Human Interface Guidelines - do a Usability Study.

      Apple's human interface guidelines section for this.

      Microsoft's guidelines - Step 18, which doesn't really give detail.

          I prefer Apple's, which give you a lot better idea on how to do the study and what to look for, which is much more useful for smaller software developers that can't afford a dedicated usability team specializing in this area and need to do something like the mom test (you have your mom try to use it and observe her actions). In my case I have to do the dad test, because my mom is a bit of a power user and my dad an ignorant nit when it comes to computers. A video camera or two (a second camera to study the user's eye movements is useful) is a necessity, so it's not a zero cost operation, but it can certainly be done on the cheap (heck, I've used a video camera on a phone for a second camera). Most people can ignore a camera better than a person looking over their shoulder (and at their face).

      As for design philosophy, that is a different issue - most FOSS programmers are "feature first" programmers - you get the app up and running and then worry about stuff like the GUI. A "design first" philosophy works with the GUI and app being designed from the ground up before implementation and has the advantage of being able to catch critical design flaws before the code is written. From a FOSS programmer's perspective, I have to admit I often fall more in the former, and I bet it costs me more time in the long run, but due to time constraints and schedule (yes, we set one) I'm often forced to start coding with an incomplete design so I don't hold up other developers, even though that has a cost in the long run. We're hoping to get better at this - in fact, my main OSS project has been redesigned from the ground up twice now to fix architecture problems (the second was probably not catch-able due to an infusion of new tech that required a design change, but the first certainly was).

    186. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by frisket · · Score: 1
      if usability experts would devote some of their time and effort into making our own time and effort more worthwhile to the end users

      But that is what usability experts do. The difficulty they face is persuading the designers, programmers, and developers that what they find out about the program's usability is actually the case.

      A good example is OpenOffice: unlike Word, it has no way to show the style name attached to each block for all the text on display. Word's "style margin" does this excellently, but in OO you have to visit each block (para, item, heading, etc) in turn to see what style it uses. This makes OO productively unusable for professional editing for publication. When I explained this to OO, they didn't see why you can't just visit each block in turn: they were unable to grasp the productivity benefit of being able to see the styles for whole screenfuls of text at a time, and were unwilling to accept the concept.

      So be it...but if designers, programmers, and developers want to become more worthwhile to end users, they need to become more willing to listen and understand, and to set aside the idea that their product is only used by people like themselves.

    187. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of use need to spend our time maintaining expertise in our chosen fields. In am a physician and I think it is a better use of my time to learn more about disease and treatment than learn to code the tools I use just so I can avoid proprietary versions. sometimes bristle at the implication that I am amoral for making such a choice.

      Rightly so. As a physician, I expect you actually do have more pressing concerns. Don't worry, the day is coming when you will not have to choose between using tools of "evil origin" or doing your job the best you can. As for the zealots who try to shame you, just point out what free software you need and can't get and perhaps remind them that helping to create solutions is actually more helpful than mere evangelism.

    188. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by frisket · · Score: 1

      I find word imposable to use, it never does anything *i expect* it to do.

      Aha...finally. A lot of the "usability problem" is about users' expectations. Users expect GIMP to be able to rotate an image by an arbitrary value in degrees: it can't (only 90/180/270). Authors and editors expect OO to be able to show applied styles for all text on display: it can't (only block by block as you click). Typesetters expect LaTeX to be able to scale fonts to arbitrary sizes: it can of course, but not by default (there are three competing packages which "fix" this in mutually exclusive ways).

      No designer, programmer, or developer can be expected to be omniscient or to read the future, but they should be expected to be able to see what is done in other systems and provide equivalent facilities; otherwise their users will desert them.

    189. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the majority of good UI designers are off getting paid well by Apple. I think Microsoft may even be bringing someone who understands UI on board soon.

      Microsoft(who have been employing serious UI design people for a long fucking time by the way) and Apple do not have all of the best UI designers. They are in the business of selling mass-marketed commodity software. They are the McDonald's and Burger King of the software world. Do you suppose that Mcdonald's and Burger King employ all of the best chefs and that is why nothing that someone cooks in their own home tastes any good? The linked article contains the some sort of idiocy:

      Proprietary software vendors typically make money by producing software that people want to use.

      No! This is as retarded as programmers thinking that the vendors they work for make money based on how clever the algorithms and data structures are that they come up with. And then the programmers get pissy about Bob in sales getting a million dollor commission while their bonus is an office party with cheap liquor served in paper cups. All that matters is if the customers pay for it. Getting people to want use their software only matters if it drives sales. Sales and marketing are the key business functions. You make money by getting people to want to buy your stuff. That is the role of marketing. In the world of shrink-wrap software, UI design is marketing's bitch. The UI designers are just too stupid to realize this in much the same way that programmers were.

    190. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I'd go further:
      Hammers have a fairly standard design (interface), so you can tell the "handle" from the "head," and the paradigm is well known and accepted.
      Hammers generally have better ergonomics than rocks.
      Hammers have intuitive usage based on design - you swing it to drive nails in and pry with it to pull nails out. You don't, say push it in the middle to drive nails in and push the side of the handle against the nail to pry them out. Rocks have ambiguous usage that varies from rock to rock (drop boulder on road runner may kill him - drop pebble on road runner and it doesn't hurt him).

      Disadvantages:
      Both tend to accidentally pound thumbs when hammering in nails.
      Rocks have non-standard sizes.
      Only some rocks are suitable to the task of driving in nails, and some are better than others.

      There are intuitive issues with hammers, all of which I think hammers are fairly good at - which end do you grab/hold? Does one end have a claw and what is it for (imagine pounding with the claw side, which may be the first intuitive thing that comes to mind if you've never seen a nail before)? Is it good for tasks other than pounding nails like pounding stakes or pounding heads?

      The design of a car brings up a point I made earlier, which is use a "design first" philosophy - when the designer presents the car mock-up to the engine builder, they engine builder should notice there is no exhaust and ask "where's the exhaust? The designer says it was ugly and removed it, and the engine builder says it's necessary and needs to be there, and the design needs to be updated to include it. Had they used a "feature first" philosophy, they'd probably build the body separately and have it done before anyone realized it had no exhaust, then attempt to hack the exhaust into the already completed design.

          It is not necessary for a designer to know how an engine works (in fact, 99% of how the engine works is really unnecessary - how many valves or pistons is a lot less important than, say, how much space is needed to fit it and allow proper airflow), but the more the designer knows, the better their initial design will be.

    191. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The task of a usability expert is not to predict reaction of one specific user, it's predicting the reaction of an "average" user - whatever that means in the specific field the application is to be used in. I doubt you are an average user in the area of personal finance applications - if only because you post to Slashdot; therefore, your tastes are mostly irrelevant.

    192. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by IdeaMan · · Score: 1

      And then you have POVRAY.

      (My point is that the open source developers think you can use a text editor to create 3 dimensional screens)

      --
      They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
    193. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      --Acad was written by judicious and wise people.--

      Ha Ha funny. What did you use it for? Acad at first was mostly command line driven. Having a digitizing tablet helped back then. They finally got the GUI right at version 14. Those wise people didn't have a plan. It just worked out the way it did sorta like Microsoft got rich because of all of the wise people that worked there.

    194. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Certainly but UI designers that are any good know how to get the requirements for a UI even if they have no idea about the field the program will get used in.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    195. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Malkin · · Score: 1

      Usability isn't supposed to be tied to the way you're used to do things, but to how intuitive it is.

      That's only true up to a point. I was involved (as a guinea pig) in some research at my University where they determined that familiarity is very important -- not in the sense of "radio dials," but in the sense of knowing-where-to-look-for-things. They were testing menus that re-order entries adaptively based on what selections you make most often vs. menus that had items in fixed positions. Across the board, people found items faster in the menus that kept their items in fixed positions.

    196. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by MythoBeast · · Score: 1

      I'll agree with the parent, but also say that anyone designing an API should work to at least understand the limitations of the medium. I don't expect my UI designers to understand what a smart pointer is, but they DO need to understand the difference between a checkbox and a radio button, even if they aren't designing for web.

      --
      Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
    197. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      > And most certainly, some of these changes will be better, objectively better, unless of course your purpose is to confuse and alienate users. So yeah, maybe you're right, there's nothing absolute in this world. There is no objectivity. Sorry. It's the same thing in disguise. What you mean by "objective" is "everyone (i an think of,) agrees to this". well. there are still other people. i did this failure myself. you simply can't expect something to be the same everywhere and for everyone... except if you live in a very small world. even time is not absolute. tell me one single absolute thing... just one. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    198. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      lol. and what does "sucking" mean? sucking = bad. bad = good * -1 (or so ;) so... it's the same thing, isn't it? :) and i am working on a gentoo linux system with kde 3.5 and compiz right now (not in pimp-mode tough ;), and it does not suck at all. it's not perfect, mut i never want to go back to windows. it's like being able to control the matrix. you never want that ability to stop. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    199. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Same failure in disguise. Repeat after me: There is no objectivity! Read up some stuff about how our senses work, how our brain works and how everything in the world is relative (einstein et al.) I'm sorry, you still are wrong. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    200. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Humm... you gave me an idea... could Steve Jobs be the brother of Bono? In a South Park-ish way (S11E09 - More Crap).

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    201. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back to your chemist analogy (which isn't really appropriate btw) . . .

      Seriously. Car analogy or GTFO.

    202. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      At that point you open up your Fitts's Law rant.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    203. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      The GUI will always be better at displaying output, because it necessarily has a higher resolution(and at worst case can use xterms). The CLI, however, is an incredible input interface, because language(natural or otherwise) is the most flexible method of communication. (And don't say anything about regular users not using CLIs--most probably use one every day)

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    204. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      Usability is how easy the user perceives it to be to complete the task they set out to do with a piece of software.

      You can take two approaches on this:
      - Users must be educated to have different perceptions of what is "easy", so they'll consider your software to be easy, AKA the arrogant approach
      - Software must be adapted to conform to what users perceive to be easy, AKA the coward's way out

      In the real world, the right path is usually a mixture of the two.

      The tricky part is that usability not only depends on user perception, but also on what task they want to do. Depending on the exact task, a product may range from highly usable to completely useless for the very same user. For example, iMovie is a great product for mixing together a video of your kids playing on the beach, but it's not so good for mixing together a video clip.

    205. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Firefox works as well as it does because it has a real business model and avoided the GPL and runs on ANY platform.

      It's just true... I know the whiners will mod me "Troll" for that comment.

      Firefox doesn't require Linux.

      Same thing as Apache, Perl, lots of others... no GPL requirement, runs on anything. Shining examples of open-source code that works.

      Drives the GNUtards nuts, too... when they really think about it. Don't need "GNU/Linux" to run these things.

      The developers of these projects GET IT. Their users aren't running Linux. In fact, to get the most users you support ALL platforms, open and closed.

      And you focus on USEABILITY, like TFA says to do.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    206. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      No it is not, but on the other hand you have shown one instance where the expert would be better at designing the solution rather than proving that the expert is the /only/ one that can design solutions.

      The latter is elitist, the former is not.

    207. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by multi+io · · Score: 1

      It's been a while. I used the 3D stuff, including solid modelling (i.e. the AME package). No 2D constructions or mechanical drawing; I didn't earn money with it or anything (I was still at school back then). I used R12 for DOS and later R14 for Windows, and I didn't find the difference between those two all that great. The GUI wasn't very sophisticated or anything, and it was kind of bolted-on (which I actually liked), but I still found it essential for, well, graphical previewing and interactive point selection (mostly the snapping features mentioned earlier). Let's say I wouldn't have use the program for very long if either the command line or the GUI had been missing.

    208. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Yes, most programs have both CLI and GUI. I don't see any reason to change this. GUI's can have a steep learning curve too. Check out Blender.

      AutoCAD 12 for DOS was good so was 14 for windows but 13 for windows was terrible. It's like back then it was best to skip the odd numbered upgrades. I don't remember 12 for DOS having much of a GUI though. Maybe it did, I just don't remember.

    209. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, you know what sucks and what could be better, just like every other person on the planet regarding everything.

    210. Re:Usability is a matter of opinion by Khelder · · Score: 1

      If the only criterion is for it to be "the best", then, sure, it's totally underspecified and subjective.

      But if you have specific goals, like "learnable by typical computer users" or "usable by accountants", then there are ways to measure them and improve them that aren't arbitrary.

      One problem is that "usability" has many facets, and some of them are frequently in tension, such as "easy to learn" and "efficient for experts". (It's not that you *can't* have both, it's just harder.)

  2. Really a matter of taste... by dturk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Usability is mostly a function of what the user is used to (no puns intended). I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done, which is in opposition to most of the world. I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability" when to most people it's best rendered as "similarity to Microsoft products."

    1. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What?
      An Apple is more usable than Windows or Linux.
      BeOS was superior to Windows and Linux.
      AmigaOS was superior to Windows and Linux, as well.
      Stop with the fucking "MS" comparison.
      Almost all Linux programs try to copy the "MS" way and they even fail to do that properly and that's why people think they have poor usability.
      Make the GUI simple to navigate so a 3 year old can handle it and powerful enough so a geek can enjoy it.
      And quit whining when someone criticizes free software.

    2. Re:Really a matter of taste... by TeknoHog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What? An Apple is more usable than Windows or Linux. BeOS was superior to Windows and Linux. AmigaOS was superior to Windows and Linux, as well.

      That's your opinion. I personally find Mac OS harder to use than either Windows or Linux, simply because of what I'm used to. Which is exactly the point of the grandparent post.

      Make the GUI simple to navigate so a 3 year old can handle it and powerful enough so a geek can enjoy it.

      Good luck with that. It often happens that if something is easy for beginners, it's not so convenient in the long run for experienced users. For example training wheels in bicycles. A good UI lets you remove the extra wheels and tinker under the hood, though.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Really a matter of taste... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I also find that most people don't really know what they want. It's usually after a fairly long period of using something, when people start to understand what's specifically wrong with the application. By that time they're used to its idiosyncracies, and it won't help them to make the application easier for beginners.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    4. Re:Really a matter of taste... by gilgongo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability" when to most people it's best rendered as "similarity to Microsoft products."

      We designers have a mantra for that, usually attributed to Henry Ford:

      "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

      You may like to ponder that in the light of that statement you made.

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    5. Re:Really a matter of taste... by grahamd0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability" ...

      Which is one of the reasons we're discussing an article about the poor usability of OSS right now.

      You've obviously never worked with a good UI designer. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't real.

    6. Re:Really a matter of taste... by asc99c · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure I agree with this, but there is a definite confusion in most people's minds between easy to use and easy to learn.

      Vim is incredibly difficult to learn, but is actually very easy to use if you can learn it. A lot of programmers using an editor for extended amounts of time have found this to be the case.

      The problem with Microsoft stuff is that it's pretty easy to pick up and use. But once you've learnt how to do it, you often want command line tools to start scripting and batching work. Generally with MS, and to a lesser extent Apple, you find you can't do that.

      Excel is the only Microsoft software I've used where I found it did everything I wanted as a power user. I think it's one of the very few examples of something both easy to learn and easy to use.

    7. Re:Really a matter of taste... by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 2, Funny

      We designers have a mantra for that, usually attributed to Henry Ford:

      "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

      You may like to ponder that in the light of that statement you made.

      Didn't Henry Ford also say: "They can have any color they want as long as its black"?

    8. Re:Really a matter of taste... by grahamd0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I also find that most people don't really know what they want. It's usually after a fairly long period of using something, when people start to understand what's specifically wrong with the application. By that time they're used to its idiosyncracies, and it won't help them to make the application easier for beginners.

      Have you heard of usability testing?

      Believe it or not, there are people who make a living figuring out that kind of thing. Obviously people can disagree about what's best, but you and the parent post seem be saying that usability is a lost cause so there's no reason to even try.

      This is a case where the perception is the reality. If the audience for your app has a hard time figuring out how to use your it, it has poor usability, whether you accept it or not.

    9. Re:Really a matter of taste... by dturk · · Score: 1

      I'm not speaking as a coder or a UI designer. I'm speaking as a user. It would take a great deal of solid evidence to convince me that there is an objective standard of usability - or an optimal interface for all users and purposes.

    10. Re:Really a matter of taste... by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      It would take a great deal of solid evidence to convince me that there is an objective standard of usability - or an optimal interface for all users and purposes.

      Obviously there isn't. That would be ridiculous.

      For specific applications and contexts, however, you can objectively determine that interfaces are more or less effective through usability testing. If more of your audience are measurably more productive in and satisfied with one interface, it is better than one in which they are less so.

    11. Re:Really a matter of taste... by chromatic · · Score: 1

      Didn't Henry Ford also say: "They can have any color they want as long as its black"?

      Do you know why he said that? My understanding is that this is because black paint dried the fastest, speeding up the slowest part of his assembly line.

    12. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Designing for a particular user group is fine if you want to limit yourself to that particular user group, but ultimately your product is successful if *new* users who have never head of it or dabbled in a competitor's product can start using it effectively right away. Usability for newbie users should be the gold standard, with similarity to existing interfaces as a secondary goal when it makes sense. This is partly why the iPod was successful for example - it had a dead simple UI, even though everybody had been used to multi-button walkmen and radios. Even Microsoft designs for usability by new users because there are *tons* of people who have never become an expert in any given MS product (note how they replaced the Office interface with the ribbon for example). Even if there is a standard that people are used to, it doesn't mean that you can't make the workflow more efficient for everybody through a better UI - for example I found it easier to configure my network on OS X than on Windows, even though I had been using Windows for 10+ years at the time I got my first Mac, because of the Mac control panel is easily searchable and the important options are visible right away rather than being hidden inside "Properties" dialogs (like the "TCP/IP properties" in Windows for example).

    13. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good UI lets you remove the extra wheels and tinker under the hood, though.

      Many people would disagree with you there.

    14. Re:Really a matter of taste... by BlackCreek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

      You may like to ponder that in the light of that statement you made.

      Didn't Henry Ford also say: "They can have any color they want as long as its black"?

      Henry Ford also said: "Excuse me, I need to use the bathroom".

      Neither of these two quotes, however, alter the value of the reasoning behind the original quote on "faster horses".

    15. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What bicycles of yours have hoods?

    16. Re:Really a matter of taste... by nawcom · · Score: 1

      A good UI lets you remove the extra wheels and tinker under the hood, though.

      I guess I don't understand if you mean that as something OS X has or something OS X is missing. As a Linux and BSD programmer I checked OS X out after Apple started building it for x86s. I find the description "Make the GUI simple to navigate so a 3 year old can handle it and powerful enough so a geek can enjoy it," an exact match for OS X. From the kernel level all the way up to the documentation they provide, Apple is extremely open-source friendly, so I feel they do a ton more than "let you remove the the extra wheels." At the same time, they came up with an interface that is visually friendly, and easy to learn. For example, is it easier to download and run a program, answer 6 questions including where you want to install it, or simply download an app, and drag it into the applications folder (for preference only; you can run it where it is if you want.) Want to tinker with the insides? a .app file is really a folder with all the settings inside - something a regular user will never look into, but someone interested in tinkering with it will like it.

      That's just a single aspect when focusing on UI and tinkering, so I sortof disagree, yet respect your opinion on the Mac OS UI.

    17. Re:Really a matter of taste... by haltenfrauden27 · · Score: 0
      I think you can quantify it more than you're saying. Microsoft ultimately spent a lot of money validating their designs by looking at how users interface with the software.

      Free software folks don't spend enough time doing this, mostly because of budgetary issues.

    18. Re:Really a matter of taste... by sehryan · · Score: 1

      The problem with that statement is that you assume a user will put up with a bad interface long enough to get used to it, which just isn't true. Users will avoid or completely abandon software that is difficult to learn.

      And usability does not equal easy to use, it equals obvious to use. The distinction is subtle enough for most people who build apps to miss completely.

      For instance, my wife was trying to burn a CD yesterday. She fired up the burner software, and, having never used it before, she sat there clicking things that weren't clickable to get it to copy a CD. I finally had to point out the overly large red button the bottom right hand corner of the app that said "Go."

      It was easy, but not obvious (because of placement), and thus the user failed at the task. Now that she knows, she won't have any problem (your point), but if I hadn't been there, she would have just moved on to a different application to get it done (my point).

      --
      The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
    19. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's your opinion. I personally find Mac OS harder to use than either Windows or Linux, simply because of what I'm used to.

      So what you're really trying to say is you haven't yet used it? Or give an example of something that's harder on one than the other.

      Thanks, just curious.

    20. Re:Really a matter of taste... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Users will avoid or completely abandon software that is difficult to learn.

      So how do you explain Word, then? Oh, right, most people who use it have no other choice or don't realize there's another choice.

      OOo Write is a lot better, but I've come to the conclusion that word processing is simply completely broken period. I think markup, like ReStructured text for most things and LaTeX if you're typesetting a calculus book or something is by far the most efficient way to go.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    21. Re:Really a matter of taste... by tknd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Usability is mostly a function of what the user is used to (no puns intended).

      Yes, consistency is one of the things that affects usability.

      I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done, which is in opposition to most of the world.

      Which says that there is an aspect about the command line that says it is usable, not necessarily unusable otherwise nobody would ever use it.

      I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability" when to most people it's best rendered as "similarity to Microsoft products."

      This is where you're wrong. Usability is quantifiable based on certain metrics you want to measure against. When an interface is designed, there are different users of the interface therefore different needs arise.

      For example the command line is one interface that has been successful for a particular purpose but requires a steep learning curve before it can be used correctly. This is okay because what is important is that one has an interface that can be used to probe or maintain a complex system for which designing "easy to use" interfaces would be a gargantuan task. So when one is working from the command line, they expect a high degree of power (do almost anything) that comes with it. The cost is that some of those functions may not be intuitive or may require more steps than necessary had a complete interface been designed. But that is ok because the operations needed on the command line are often unique and covers a huge number of possibilities. So in this case the learning curve is warranted because the knowledge required to perform the task must be learned anyway.

      Meanwhile if a user wants to compose a simple email, would the command line interface suffice? Probably not because the details of the command line interface are not necessary in the process of composing and sending an email. What is important is the fact that they can write the email and send it with the fewest hassles. Furthermore if we expand this out to different types of users, we can have a home user and a business user. The home user may not care about integration into their calendar software and other things like easily sending attachments. Meanwhile to a business user, those two operations happen on a daily basis. So for the home user, a simple web mail interface might be sufficient and usable while for the business user it probably won't be. Meanwhile an outlook interface might be perfect for the business user while for the home user it might be a little too much.

      So the point here is to identify each user's needs in respect to the task they want to accomplish and in many cases that does not necessarily mean "Microsoft only". Interfaces are everywhere not just in hardware. For example cars with pedals and steering wheels. In almost every car the interface is probably mostly the same. Another example is stereos and music players. Or even your stove in your kitchen. The device I think that is often neglected but needs the biggest usability improvement is the remote control. But maybe soon that will get replaced with an on-screen-display and something like a wii-mote. Anyway the point is that as an interface designer, you can borrow from these other common interfaces (not just the Microsoft ones) to use as metaphors for your new interface. I wouldn't recommend it but that is one option.

      The easier route is to use R&D (rob and duplicate) and copy existing interfaces. The problem with this is that sometimes you inherit the faults of whatever you're trying to copy. A good example is OpenOffice. Some people like the interface because it is what they're used to. But for a word processor, I feel that the interface is poorly written such that it leads to poorly authored documents. I've seen countless word documents with foo-bar'ed formatting in the bullets, fonts, and everything. Even the table of contents was put together by hand rather than using th

    22. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

      We're all very used to the car interface (steering wheel) much more than the horse interface (reins) but back in Henry Ford's time people weren't. Henry Ford just introduced another pointlessly different interface which the millions of horse users would have to waste their time relearning.

      The whole world had to change just to suit the car. Dirt and gravel roads had to be paved. Petrol was originally available at the chemists. Service stations had to be built everywhere. Its a little hard to imagine a war fought in the middle east over hay.

    23. Re:Really a matter of taste... by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Not, it's not a matter of taste. Of you had ever done any real usability testing, you would know that.

      See people, this is the problem right here. Many in the OSS community don't even take usability seriously and say that it's a matter of taste, what you are used to, that it's not possible to quantify or do any meaningful tests etc. How can they expect to improve usability when they think it doesn't matter in the first place?

    24. Re:Really a matter of taste... by bh_doc · · Score: 1

      Henry Ford also said: "Excuse me, I need to use the bathroom".

      [Citation needed]

    25. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've come to the conclusion that word processing is simply completely broken period. I think markup, like ReStructured text for most things and LaTeX if you're typesetting a calculus book or something is by far the most efficient way to go.

      Hand-coded markup is the answer? Riiiiight.

      1978 will be happily welcoming back disgruntled Word users.

    26. Re:Really a matter of taste... by stmok · · Score: 1

      Maybe have two modes?

      Easy => This is the one with the training wheels. Suitable for everyone and anyone. Its clean and direct with minimal number of clicks. Icons, wizards, and error messages in plain english, etc.

      Advance => The wheels come off. This is more detailed and flexible. Have the option to view error messages in greater detail. For folks who want to make things exactly the way they want it.

    27. Re:Really a matter of taste... by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      Well then to be honest your task is probably either not very complicated or is one which the command line happens to support very well like programming. I'd argue that even for coding a GUI is much more useful in many cases, theres a myriad of code inspection based help, autocomplete, call hierarchies and try using dbx from the comand line compared to the visual studio or eclipse java debuggers.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    28. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think usability and user-friendliness are the same thing.

      If something has low usability then it is (nearly) unusable and, given the number of users of FOSS both in academia and business, it clearly isn't unusable. I think usability has to refer to what an OS can be used for, and how efficently a user can work with it.

      User-friendiness on the other hand (what this is really about) is is much more difficult. It's difficult because the initial perception of users is that what they're familiar with is the most user-friendly.

      I would happily say that Pidgin is more user-friendly than MSN Messenger. It has a much simpler interface, there's no confusing adverts and it doesn't thrust more information at the user than is necessary.

    29. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, for one, welcome our usability overloads^Woverlords!

    30. Re:Really a matter of taste... by mike_sucks · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, this is one reason why free software ui's tend to suck.

      "Usability is mostly a function of what the user is used to".

      Incorrect. While consistency is important so are many other factors such as information organization and display, discoverability of core features, support for internationalization, localization and accessability.

      "I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done"

      Which puts you in a very small minority, and disqualifies you from making any useful observations about usability in general.

      "I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability""

      Incorrect. It is very much possible to measure usability with user testing and similar studies - it has been happening for decades.

      "when to most people it's best rendered as "similarity to Microsoft products."

      Incorrect, given Microsoft just recently redesigned the user interface for their two top products, Windows and Office, even these "gold standards" have much room for improvement.

      /Mike

      --
      -- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
    31. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      "A good UI lets you remove the extra wheels and tinker under the hood, though. "

      This is how Asus handled the issue in their Eee PC line.

      It boots up in a simple and easy to use interface so that anyone can access the functions they want, even though the interface is new. It looks like an OS from PlaySkool. There is no command line or any reference to it(which is how it should be).

      You can however switch over to advanced mode by reading the manual. If they're able or interested enough to read manuals to go looking for more complex usage, only then should they be faced with the less intuitive interface. The command line is the pinnacle of unintuitive and should be the very last thing they encounter. In a GUI, you can visually search through your options until you find what you want. At the command line, you either know it or you don't.

      After they already learned the answers or learned where to learn the answers, then they can sacrifice the intuitive interface for the more powerful but less intuitive command line.

    32. Re:Really a matter of taste... by zevans · · Score: 1

      Worth noting also that it was at least 20 years [citation needed*] before we had a car with the modern interface - three pedals A B C, parking brake and shifter in the centre. For those that even HAD clutch and gearbox, that is...

      [Really can't be bothered looking through youtube for the relevant episode of Top Gear]

      --
      "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
    33. Re:Really a matter of taste... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability"

      Pfeiffer Consulting (and about a billion others) disagree. http://www.publish.com/c/a/Opinions/User-Interface-Friction-Its-What-Makes-You-Hate-Computers/ Furthermore, being "similar" to Microsoft is a bit of flaw in logic because the "Microsoft Way" is often considered by many as one of the biggest offenders to sensible UI. Granted, a lot of things just take over as "the way", such as clutch on the left, gas on the right and brake in the middle. Maybe there's a better way to design car pedals, but it would be catastrophic to change it now. Fortunately, in the computing world, it is relatively safe to offer UI improvements that stray from the Microsoft Way.

    34. Re:Really a matter of taste... by jwilcox154 · · Score: 1

      Except the phrase you gave has absolutely nothing to do with either of the other two phrases.

      The two phrases "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." and "They can have any color they want as long as its black" both imply he did not care what the customer wanted. That lack of customer care attitude remained with FORD (Figure On Repairs Daily), thus they lost customers when viable competition came around. "Toyota, Nissan, etc" Why do you think they are Third or lower?

    35. Re:Really a matter of taste... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The problem with Microsoft stuff is that it's pretty easy to pick up and use. But once you've learnt how to do it, you often want command line tools to start scripting and batching work. Generally with MS, and to a lesser extent Apple, you find you can't do that.

      It's changing. Witness stuff like PowerShell bundled into Win2008, and IIS7 finally storing all its settings in human-readable (/editable/copyable) XML configs instead of registry.

    36. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Sitten+Spynne · · Score: 1

      This mentality is dangerous and part of the reason why the usability of OSS suffers. A similar dedication to the converse is why Windows is easy for the average user and difficult to manage for the advanced user. If you like a command-line interface, great! That's not a reason why a simpler GUI cannot exist for the task.

      Let's consider a simple task like deleting a file. If you tell the average user that it's way faster to use the command line and then teach them a little about rm (or del in Windows), you'll be faced with a terrified phone call after they use the wrong arguments and delete their entire drive. These people should be using a graphical shell to hold their hand through the process; they don't view the computer the same way you do. They want it to be like a TV: push button, do thing. On the other hand, the more experienced user is writing a script to do the deletion for him anyway; the shell interface is probably never used by this user.

      It's not insightful to say, "I'm a Linux user and I do things the command line way, the way $deity intended! If you want your hand held, why don't you just use Windows?" I see plenty of OSS developers act this way and then they are surprised that some people still think Linux is hard. You told them to use Windows; don't make fun of them for it. The optimal design can accommodate both the power user and the casual user.

    37. Re:Really a matter of taste... by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      "I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done"

      Which puts you in a very small minority, and disqualifies you from making any useful observations about usability in general.

      So, any program interface that uses the command line is either *done* as far as improving usability or it's just a stupid idea to think a CLI is usable?

      ...consistency..., information organization, and display, discoverability of core features, support for internationalization, localization and accessability

      I don't see how any of these listed items can't be applied to a CLI program. Basically, I think you're using consistency as a crutch to bypass usability on the command line altogether. And if not, you've certainly presented yourself that way.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    38. Re:Really a matter of taste... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Take a course on UI design.

      At least google or wiki Fitt's Law

    39. Re:Really a matter of taste... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      The problem is that you are just looking at one pattern of use.
      Yes VIM maybe very productive but it is not easy to learn or to use.
      VIM or Emacs is great if you use it everyday all day. But most users are not that program centric. They use many programs every day.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    40. Re:Really a matter of taste... by asc99c · · Score: 1

      But equally, it's changing back with Vista's bootup scripts being some funny binary stuff instead of a text boot.ini file.

      IIS7 looks to have reasonable usability when I have used it at work (for ASP pages). Unfortunately for MS I'm too used to the config files for Apache and I've found that XAMPP provides a great vanilla installation for the Apache / MySQL / PHP stack

    41. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost all Linux programs try to copy the "MS" way

      Er, no they don't.

      Make the GUI simple to navigate so a 3 year old can handle it and powerful enough so a geek can enjoy it.

      While we're talking impossibilities, maybe it should also provide free energy and bring about world peace.

    42. Re:Really a matter of taste... by Gnavpot · · Score: 1

      The two phrases "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." and "They can have any color they want as long as its black" both imply he did not care what the customer wanted.

      To me, the first phrase imply that he DID care what the customer wanted - and he also knew that the customer didn't know it yet.

    43. Re:Really a matter of taste... by mike_sucks · · Score: 1

      "So, any program interface that uses the command line is either *done* as far as improving usability or it's just a stupid idea to think a CLI is usable?"

      Neither, clearly.

      "I don't see how any of these listed items can't be applied to a CLI program"

      Some of them can and are, but some of them cannot and are not.

      "Basically, I think you're using consistency as a crutch to bypass usability on the command line altogether"

      No, you haven't got the gist of what I am saying at all, namely that command line interfaces suffer intrinsic usability issues compared to graphical interfaces and hence are not fit for people in general. If you're used to using a shell, if you take the time to learn how to use it and the command line programs you can run from it they can be awesome (they are awesome for me). However, statements along the lines of "CLIs are just as usable or user-friendly as GUIs" are just incorrect.

      /Mike

      --
      -- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
    44. Re:Really a matter of taste... by try_anything · · Score: 1

      "I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done"

      Which puts you in a very small minority, and disqualifies you from making any useful observations about usability in general.

      This is the kind of attitude that alienates programmers from any concerns about usability: the idea that usability is only for the masses, and making programs more usable is all about making them more suitable for the least computer-savvy demographic imaginable.

      Since most open-source hackers start by producing development tools for themselves and their colleagues, it is quite appropriate for them to concentrate on users who are like themselves. After all, the developer of any application, even a development tool aimed at other geeks, must first grapple with the mental gap between himself and a user (however sophisticated) who has no prior knowledge of the application. That is not so different from imagining the difference between a sophisticated user and an unsophisticated one.

      If you belittle that kind of work, then how do you expect programmers to learn the basics of usability? Usability applies to every application and every user, not just GUI programs and casual users. If you want the Linux desktop to be usable by casual computer users, then you should encourage all developers to cultivate their usability skills, even those who develop command-line tools for fellow geeks. Some of those developers will move on to creating GUI applications for the general population. If you encourage them to ignore the usability requirements of their users because power users are "disqualified" from the concept of usability, they will just develop a bad habit of ignoring users.

      Finally, it makes perfect sense for Linux geeks to worry that "usability" (in the sense of an exclusive focus on the least savvy users) will make their systems less usable. It has already happened with GNOME, which has alienated many of its former fans to cater to the general user population. All things considered, I think it's good that one major Linux desktop has chosen that route, but it proves that power users are short-changed by the assumption that usability applies only to unsophisticated users.

    45. Re:Really a matter of taste... by idlehanz · · Score: 1

      Now you just have to put yourself in the seat of the 95% of the people that like GUI. Command line, while powerful, didn't bring computers to the masses. Most of this challenge probably stems from the person that had a the great idea in response to a problem, and coded up a solution to address it. How the original coder thought it should have been addressed, with a path through the application that matched how the original coder thought. If you don't have paying customers there isn't a sense of urgency when dealing with how "those people, probably dumber than me" might want to use a product. The downside of paying customers is, you are beholden to those whiney-ass biatches. But at the end of the day your product is probably easier to use.

      --
      Changing the world... one research project at a time.
    46. Re:Really a matter of taste... by mike_sucks · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that was kinda harsh in isolation, but the rest of assertions in the gp post were off the mark enough to justify it.

      "This is the kind of attitude that alienates programmers from any concerns about usability: the idea that usability is only for the masses, and making programs more usable is all about making them more suitable for the least computer-savvy demographic imaginable."

      Clearly usability is applicable to all users of technology. I am not claiming to the contrary, I don't know where you got that impression.

      "Since most open-source hackers start by producing development tools for themselves and their colleagues, it is quite appropriate for them to concentrate on users who are like themselves"

      Sure, but that still does not excuse the incorrect assumption that "if it works for me, it will work for others like me". This is very much not the case, especially for UNIX hackers, who most free software developers tend to be tend to be and who tend have very, very custom workflows (due to the encouragement given to configure their environment using shell tricks and scripts).

      "Finally, it makes perfect sense for Linux geeks to worry that "usability" (in the sense of an exclusive focus on the least savvy users) will make their systems less usable. It has already happened with GNOME"

      Ahh, lol! Nice troll. You had me going there for a moment.

      *plonk*

      /Mike

      --
      -- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
    47. Re:Really a matter of taste... by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Clearly usability is applicable to all users of technology. I am not claiming to the contrary, I don't know where you got that impression.

      I got it from your statement that the poster's comfort with command-line tools "disqualifies [him] from making any useful observations about usability in general." Really, how do you justify this? You can't discount his opinion merely because his skills and needs are unusual -- by that standard, we would also disqualify people with visual or motor skills impairments. Not that command line skill is a disability ;-)

      Everybody is qualified to talk about usability from their own perspective. You wouldn't adopt the OP as your Model Target User if you were developing a media player for Linux newbies, but that doesn't invalidate his point and it certainly doesn't disqualify him from talking about usability.

      Sure, but that still does not excuse the incorrect assumption that "if it works for me, it will work for others like me".

      That is an overgeneralization of what the OP said. He said that usability means something different to him than it means to some other users, which is true. He didn't say that other command-line users have the same usability requirements he does. However, I would say (even though he didn't) that command-line users tend to have some things in common, such as the fact that...

      This is very much not the case, especially for UNIX hackers, who most free software developers tend to be tend to be and who tend have very, very custom workflows (due to the encouragement given to configure their environment using shell tricks and scripts)

      ... most UNIX hackers appreciate the ability to control an application from a shell script! Thanks for coming up with that example for me ;-)

      By the way, I wasn't trolling about GNOME. Focusing on one user population tends to hurt other populations with different needs. I think it's great that GNOME is catering to a user population that is generally underserved on Unix platforms, but it seems quite apparent from numerous and bitter complaints on Slashdot and elsewhere that GNOME has alienated a subset of its former users. Once again, I think there's nothing wrong with that. It's better than having all the desktop and/or window manager projects chasing the same population of power users.

    48. Re:Really a matter of taste... by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      The difference (to me) is largely a question of literacy or illiteracy. I believe that the definitions of "usable or user-friendly" are quite different when one is literate or illiterate. As an example, you can ask a young child (pre-reader) to grab a can of peas. You cannot ask them to grab a can of peas with no salt. The higher the level of skill the more demanding the needs of the user, the more the definition of usable and user-friendly change. The picture might be easier or more universal, but it will rarely be as usable or user-friendly as an established language. (Note: simply pasting a picture of salt on the can does not elaborate as to how much salt is contained or even if it is salt rather than sugar.)

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    49. Re:Really a matter of taste... by mike_sucks · · Score: 1

      "The difference (to me) is largely a question of literacy or illiteracy. I believe that the definitions of "usable or user-friendly" are quite different when one is literate or illiterate"

      Yes, and in doing so you make the same error as the original post. As I said in response to that, usability is not just determined from (in)ability to use the interface, but by a number of equally important other factors.

      For example, so if you need to constantly use several keystrokes and/or mouse movements and clicks to perform some common function or reveal oft-needed information, then the program is less usable than one that requires fewer. This is true of both CLIs and GUIs of course, but the problem is usually compounded in CLIs which provide little if any way for a user to discover what those keystrokes/mouse gestures are. These two example factors (interaction design and discoverability) are constant regardless of the user's computer literacy.

      /Mike

      --
      -- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
    50. Re:Really a matter of taste... by asc99c · · Score: 1

      Some of this is very true, I was explicitly choosing an extreme example to make a point.

      However Vim IS extremely easy to use as measured by how long it takes me to do stuff. Occasionally you end up typing stuff like qqyypCtrl-Aq28@q in a very natural way and then sit back and realise that's 30 lines of repetitive code written in an instant.

      With Eclipse you'd have been sat there hitting the paste key a lot of times and then going back through incrementing numbers and it would have taken a minute or so.

    51. Re:Really a matter of taste... by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      A good UI lets you remove the extra wheels and tinker under the hood, though.

      Wrong. A good UI deploys the training wheels when it senses you're about to fall. And a better UI finds a way to include self-balancing in the bike, so no training wheels are needed.

    52. Re:Really a matter of taste... by cyphercell · · Score: 1
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability

      I find references to neither CLI or GUI.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_line_interface

      No mention of usability.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface

      Here I find this

      Text user interfaces (TUI) share with GUIs their use of the entire screen area and exposure of available commands through widgets like form entry and menus. However, TUIs only use text and symbols available on a typical text terminal, while GUIs typically use high resolution graphics modes. This allows the GUI to present more detailed information and fine-grained direct manipulation.

      But if I gave a shit about wikipedia (I do, but not enough to edit) I'd re-write that last line to say

      This allows the GUI to present more detailed information and fine-grained direct manipulation of images .

      the article goes on to mention usability in other places, comments are definitely made about GUI designers' dedication to implementing usability studies, but nowhere is it said that GUIs are inherently more usable than CLIs.

      Incorrect, given Microsoft just recently redesigned the user interface for their two top products, Windows and Office, even these "gold standards" have much room for improvement.

      one of the ways Microsoft improved their usability in Windows was by adding a text driven interface: the search bar; used to replace a hierarchical TUI.

      I'd settle for "GUIs have usability strengths where CLIs have usability weaknesses and vice versa", but I won't concede that GUIs are more "usable" than CLIs.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    53. Re:Really a matter of taste... by zatoichi0 · · Score: 1
      I agree...

      You especially want the scripting part of the applications used most of the time. Once you know how to use it (e.g. Vim), you don't think about it in terms of usability. Excel has VB for a reason - programming is the best tool for some jobs, no matter how user unfriendly typing code may be.

      I spent countless hours getting used to Vim. Result? Incredible speed and more time spent on creating value instead of manually doing things the computer can do for me.

      Desktop? Fluxbox. Lightning fast and for complex key-combos. Takes hours to set up right, but you do that only once in a lifetime.

      Linux? Ubuntu. Less time spent using it. (apt + upgrades).

      Would I recommend any of these to anyone? Highly unlikely. Do I regret investing my time learning to use those completely unusable pieces of software? Not even a bit.

      Why not Windows? Scripting it is almost (?) impossible and you can neither customize the gui or change keyboard shortcuts or even install software just by selecting packages from a list. Try and get the CD to eject when a file has finished downloading to see what I mean. One line in bash is enough in Linux.

      Usability always becomes less important after a while of using a piece of software. Try using Windows for 8 years and see how much less "usable" it becomes.

      Efficiency is the next step - unless everything is new to you and you only need to use something once.

  3. Poor Usability starts with too many choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like it or not, the fact that there is so many choices for the GUI/Desktop, the packaging system, etc is the main problem for Linux.

    1. Re:Poor Usability starts with too many choices by jps25 · · Score: 1

      No, it's not, but I'd like to hear more about your shrewd point of view.
      There are thousands of cars the world can pick from and I don't see the average person having a nervous breakdown over the decision which to buy.

  4. Probably the only good "scope creep" by EggyToast · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The kind of additional functionality added for usability reasons are usually looked down on because they can fall into scope creep, but I think they're quite the opposite. I think most coders look down on these kinds of suggestions because they don't affect how they use the program. And, truly, most people who work on open source code do so because they themselves want the functionality they're coding for.

    To them, if it does the job, great. And I think many of them have a similar response to usability problems as those asking for ports to different operating systems, or even a binary: "Not my problem, it works for me and that's enough."

    Not to mention that, in many cases, what increases usability to a larger audience is reducing efficiency to the programmer who designed it to suit how they work.

    1. Re:Probably the only good "scope creep" by Dan+Ost · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you've got the development community all wrong. By the time a project has moved from the "useful to me" phase to the "useful to the community" phase, the developer has already acknowledged that the opinions of the users are valuable.

      As long as the requests from the community don't directly contradict something that the developer requires the project to have, the developer will usually attempt to make the community happy. The problem is the community doesn't often speak with one voice and so it's difficult for the developer to know which side of contradicting requests he should accept. Often, the only position the developer can take is to wait for the community to reach a consensus before he does anything.

      Don't blame the developers for this, they're just part of the equation.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    2. Re:Probably the only good "scope creep" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To them, if it does the job, great. And I think many of them have a similar response to usability problems as those asking for ports to different operating systems, or even a binary: "Not my problem, it works for me and that's enough."

      And I can't blame them for that. The programmer has a two-headed problem here. They tested it and it works. And they have no idea how to tell if the "usability specialists" have any idea of what s/he's talking about.

      The job is done, and the programmer has no way of telling, through personal experience with the project or invisible reputations of the multitude asking for UI changes, which UI change requests are actually really good ideas. What's more, nobody is stopping any of those people from doing exactly what the programmer did, which is roll up sleeves and do the real work of writing code. Can't code? Learn to -- the programmer did; why should the programmer care if you won't do the same?

      I'm frustrated by poor UI in OS all the time, but I absolutely sympathize with the programmer view here.

      If we want better UI then something structural has to change.

      Possible starting points:

      1] 'Designers' learn to code. Sorry but I see this problem constantly on big web projects. (Damn right I'm posting AC!) Design is still handled by code-less Designers running Photoshop, then thrown at CSS people who are given no input and no sympathy. Then management bitches about how much they're spending on the CSS portion to the hapless CSS people. They were given a design that was clueless about how the medium actually works, so of course the result is boondoggle.

      2] Get designers who are at least as serious about putting in the unpaid hours as programmers to identify projects early and offer their services to work alongside supporting the programmers. Churn out good work, stay co-ordinated, and stay available, and you will have programmers who will respect and value the input. Also the programmers (who are smart people) will start to learn quite a bit more about design.

      3] Get designers who are at least as serious about putting in the unpaid hours as programmers to create really good design handbooks for programmers that are based on lesson learned from prior projects. Write about design for programmers. Invite two or three programmers to help write it. You've got to keep to the programmers' perspective in every paragraph.

      Something along those lines anyway. Part of our problem is Linux's fairly recent mainstream success on the desktop with Ubuntu and Mandriva is only starting to make OS highly visible to real working designers. OS is a mature programmers' environment with good systems and traditions for contributing, but it's only just starting to show up for designers. This is very reminicent to where the web was around 97/98.

    3. Re:Probably the only good "scope creep" by zsau · · Score: 1

      Although that's generally true, it's not always — and these cases are the more noticeable for the harm they cause. Pidgin is an excellent case in point. The developers have actively removed features and refused to even consider adding them, even though the new methods are completely unusable for many people.

      This, plus a few other programs I've updated in the last few months — Mozilla's gecko to the Firefox 3-based version, Gnome's power manager are two of the most prominant — have also changed in ways that have made my computer go from being invisible and useful to getting in my way. Aside from switching from Thunderbird to Balsa and adding a few new programs like Skype and unclutter, I haven't changed my environment in years. It's a shame that it looks like I might have to rework my computer if it's going to be useful, and not the detestable chore most Windows users computers seem to be.

      --
      Look out!
  5. The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mainly that people who are interested in coding free software and people who have a great understanding of ergonomics and aesthetics in software are usually just not the same people. I've known plenty of coders whose idea of usability is to configure it for their personal preferences and that's it, but on the other hand, I am sure most people who really understand what is needed for usability couldn't code "Hello World!" in BASIC.

    1. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by SirShmoopie · · Score: 1

      Mainly that people who are interested in coding free software and people who have a great understanding of ergonomics and aesthetics in software are usually just not the same people.

      Wow, you've got me pegged. I'm happy to spend days wrangling over a neural network, or some other interesting algorithmic 'shiny device', but I can't design a decent user interface or web site. I've been told this many, many times by my friends.

    2. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by jeevesbond · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The main problem is, I think, unsolvable

      This would be true if FOSS were solely developed by volunteers, only interested in their own preferences, but there are two other groups to take into consideration:

      1. power users who like the idea of FOSS, whom use it and want it to work for their friends and family;
      2. companies that market and sell support for FOSS desktops;

      We haven't seen good usability in FOSS products due to the reason you mentioned: the software developers have been the only stake-holders in the process. That situation is changing. For example: the person who wrote the article, works for Canonical. It is in Canonical's interests to get as many users on Ubuntu as possible, this is all part of fixing bug #1!. Canonical can afford to pay usability experts to improve FOSS, and as average users try things out, they -- or their power user friends -- will raise bugs when usability issues arise.

      Great progress is being made, if you check out Matthew's previous blog post on usability issues, from when he first started working for Canonical, you'll see most of the problems shown there have been fixed.

      The only thing I see standing in the way, are developer egos. I personally hope these can be worked around!

      --
      I'm going to transform myself into a mighty hawk. Either that or I'll just go and work at Dixons, haven't decided yet.
    3. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by grumbel · · Score: 1

      I think the real issue is much simpler: Cleaning things up requires work, not necessarily the most interesting kind of work. You really don't need a usability guru to see or fix many of the issues you find in free software, you however have to take the time to look into the issue and figure out a solution and that most often simply never happens.

    4. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are not right. Anybody can learn to code. It only needs will.
      Bjorn D.

    5. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by expatriot · · Score: 1

      I think of this as being an autistic/artistic continum. There are some people who are obsessive about details and willing (and more than able) to memorize all sorts of detail. There are other people who want thinks to be beautiful and not to think about the details "under the hood". Linux and Apple are on two different points on this continum. If you want an example of usability not only overtaking the artistic component but strangling it and burying the body, consider SAP.

      While there is no way to have one product fit everyone, it is possible to be as versatile as possible.

      Apple tries to solve this by having multiple interfaces. Linux distributions pay some token tribute to this, but the non-command-line options seem (to me) to be an afterthought that has been bolted on.

      Neither of the groups of computer users are bad people. Each has reasonable expectations of how the system should work.

      To put this is a different perspective, what if the command line options were randomly assigned (I'm tempted to give :q as an example, but someone must love that) and required multiple keystrokes. Even died in the wool command line users would say that this was too much. The difference is that the really dedicated command line enthusist could probably remap the keys.

      For a GUI centric person, it is less likely that they would be able to reorder tabs, change text on buttons, or move menu entries to a more "logical" location.

    6. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by typidemon · · Score: 1

      I am sure most people who really understand what is needed for usability couldn't code "Hello World!" in BASIC.

      That's rapidly becoming untrue. Many Computer Science students have majors in UCD related fields while still remaining (comparatively) competent programmers. In my case (and I'm not unique from my degree), my majors are in Interaction Design and Mobile Computing.

      I now work on a pure Information Architecture team, and 2/3s of the team have some sort of programming exposure.

      The biggest problem for building more effective UIs in Open Source Software is actually four fold: 1) The people who initiated the project didn't think about how people should interact with the product during design. 2) Many people who are in OSS projects are unsupportive of usability suggestions. 3) It's very difficult to do both effective UI design while also solving technical problems. 4) Dramatic UI changes are often a HUGE chunk of work that often requires vast amounts of specific understanding of what's happening in the program.

    7. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by AnObfuscator · · Score: 1

      It can't be that intractable; Firefox and GNOME have excellent usability.

      Their solution to your stated problem is simple: find people interested in coding free software, and find other people interested in aesthetics and usability, and make them work together.

      If the coder is uninterested in usability, and unwilling to bend to the usability experts, his project probably won't go anywhere; if it really is useful, it will be forked by a better managed team.

      --
      multifariam.net -- yet another nerd blog
    8. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      That shouldn't matter, as many people can work on the same project, right? It's like John Gruber says -- it's about the people with design skills having no authority and just getting ignored.

      There are also plenty of people who understand code, and can even code a bit themselves, that understand usability issues, but most of them know that it's a bit pointless to try and get involved when you'll just be ignored.

    9. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mainly that people who are interested in coding free software and people who have a great understanding of ergonomics and aesthetics in software are usually just not the same people. I've known plenty of coders whose idea of usability is to configure it for their personal preferences and that's it, but on the other hand, I am sure most people who really understand what is needed for usability couldn't code "Hello World!" in BASIC.

      Why though? What causes these people to want to do design for the usability of software? Is it only money for every single one of them? What do they have to lose/gain that the coders don't?

    10. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mainly that people who are interested in coding free software and people who have a great understanding of ergonomics and aesthetics in software are usually just not the same people.

      And the people coding some free software will aggressively defend their interface when someone tries to suggest improvements.

    11. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by theCoder · · Score: 1

      I agree that the problem is unsolvable, but not for the reason you stated. The reason that software will always have usability problems is because of the author's point #4 (yes, I did RTFA):

      4. Usability is hard to measure.

      More specifically, it's hard to know what is "usable" and what is not. And something that is perfectly usable for one person may be very difficult for another. Obviously, there are degrees to this -- some software can be really hard to use for everybody and some software can be fairly easy to use. Often this depends on what the software does -- is it a game for children (probably easy) or is it a video editor (probably hard). In addition, some programs are hard to learn or require domain knowledge to use correctly. Is vi's usability poor because it's hard to learn? What about Blender? Is the GIMP really unusable, or is it just different than expected?

      The author also points out in #8 that developers scratch their own itch, and once the program is usable for them and people like them, they may not feel the need to improve it much more. There has to be a leap from "here's the code to a neat program I wrote that solves my problem -- see if you can use it" to "here is a product that most people can use". That leap takes a fair amount of effort, and I don't blame anyone for not taking it.

      In the end, though, usability in OSS will always be "poor" because no matter how good it is, there will always be some program that isn't as good or is just not meant for the masses to use.

      But quite frankly, I don't know how anyone can complain about the usability of Free Software when there is so much unusable stuff coming out of places like Microsoft, Adobe and Apple (yes, even Apple -- I still remember the horrors of having to use the QuickTime player back when I ran Windows). Linux is just more usable for me. Maybe that's personal, I don't know. But in general I don't find FOSS usability "poor".

      --
      "Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
    12. Re:The main problem is, I think, unsolvable- by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Anybody can learn to code. It only needs will.

      Your evidence for this, please?

  6. A matter of time? by The+Ancients · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps this article signifies the movement that has occurred with open source software. Whilst I'm sure it's been around a long while, there has been a huge increase in what's available in the last few years. Open Source software is maturing as most things do when they get older.

    I'm happy with the 'get it working first - then make it pretty' approach taken by most.

    1. Re:A matter of time? by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 1

      I'm happy with the 'get it working first - then make it pretty' approach taken by most.

      Unfortunately that often turns into either:
      Get it working first, then get bored and move onto something new.
      or
      Get it working first, then start again from the ground up making it better (from the programmer's POV).

      Somehow those final layers of polish just never seem to happen on too many open source projects.

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    2. Re:A matter of time? by AaronLawrence · · Score: 1

      The problem with that approach is that for general users, the user interface *is* the product. They see nothing else and if it isn't good, whatever is underneath is irrelevant.

      In addition, coming up with a good user interface is often quite a difficult part of the project.

      So while it is fun for programmers to solve the interesting algorithms and pick nice tools and write a bunch of code, one of the hardest and most important parts is neglected.

      --
      For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
    3. Re:A matter of time? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      I'm happy with the 'get it working first - then make it pretty' approach taken by most.

      I take exception to your characterization of usability as "making pretty" a piece of software which is already "working".

    4. Re:A matter of time? by whjwhj · · Score: 1

      Your 'then make it pretty' comment reveals that you have absolutely no clue what good UI design is all about. Good UI design is devilishly hard work. There are a lot of considerations that go way beyond mere appearance.

      For at least some enlightenment on the subject, read this post:

      http://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability

      whj

  7. Not true anymore by blind+biker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am a 100% satisfied user of free software, after years of negativism and complaining (I admit, my past sins...). I use: Xandros and SLAX distros, OpenOffice (EXCELLENT usability!), Firefox, the WLAN choosers that come with the aforementioned distros and a handful of console apps. I don't even know the name of the movie player that starts up when I doubleclick on a media file. What's not to like, what's not to be able to use?

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:Not true anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it interesting that you cite OpenOffice as being very usable, when as far as I could tell the interface is ripped almost directly from Microsoft...

    2. Re:Not true anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open office actually was "ripped" from Star Office (came from Star Office source), which pre-dates Microsoft Office, from what I remember.

    3. Re:Not true anymore by azgard · · Score: 1

      I find it interesting that you cite OpenOffice as being very usable, when as far as I could tell the interface is ripped almost directly from Microsoft...

      Not quite true. There are things that are better than Microsoft and there are also things that are worse than Microsoft (my favorite examples being resizing of a picture being inserted in Writer and cell background color selection in Calc).

    4. Re:Not true anymore by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      With all due respect, if you genuinely believe that OpenOffice has "EXCELLENT usability," then you're not the right person to be judging how usable a particular program is. OpenOffice doesn't even have (what Microsoft calls) Normal/Draft View.

    5. Re:Not true anymore by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      I love FOSS, Kubuntu is my favorite distro/OS, etc etc... But 100% satisfied? -Nothing- satisfies me 100% in this world, and no OS or application is so perfect that it satisfies me anywhere near 100%.

      I can always find things that I wish were combined from different apps. For instance, Quanta Plus is my favorite PHP editor. But the code completion is wonky sometimes and the Doc support is iffy at best. I'm currently forced to use Aptana (on OS X) at work, and I find that the code completion and doc support is much better, but the keyboard shortcuts suck and the command to comment/uncomment code isn't nearly as good as Quanta's.

      Yes, if I were willing to put in the time, I could probably fix either of them to have the features I want... The problem is that I've got so many other things I want to do as well. I've already got enough stuff that I could add nothing to the list for several years and have no time that I got bored.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  8. RE: Usability of Free Software by Zw4nzig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously, free software has teh same problems as socialism: If it is free, what is the incentive for enhancement and bettering? Why go through the trouble after your initial effort, if there is no advantage? A lot of free software comes about because of the need, or the personal interest. But once both of those are satisfied, there is no reason to enhance the program. And if it meets the usability requirements of a select few for whom the program was designed, what is the purpose of making it more usable by the general populace?

    --
    Do I look like a man with a plan?
  9. You need to fix yourself first by unity100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if you think free software has usability, you have problems identifying and finding good software. you need to fix yourself.

    i use a lot of free software that has very good usability. there is nothing different in selecting free software than selecting paid software - buyer beware.

    1. Re:You need to fix yourself first by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      come to think of it, I use plenty of commercial software, some of which has terrible usability (yes, anything by Oracle, Siebel and co). We are even going through a bit of an argument at work where the bosses bought Siebel at huge (no - HUGE) cost, yet we still want to use Mantis because it does everything we need it to whilst being significantly easier to use.

      That still doesn't mean usability shouldn't be raised as a very important issue in the F/OSS world.

    2. Re:You need to fix yourself first by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Daily WTF.com has a term for software like this: "Enterprise-y." It's a basic joke that most software that advertises itself as being "enterprise-quality" is actually pretty damned shitty. Think of anything from Oracle, Cisco (their VPN client gives me nightmares), IBM (Lotus Notes is aggressively user-hostile, and has been for decades), etc.

      There's a "sweet spot." Tiny software is usually unusable because there are too few developers and resources. Medium-sized software is usually pretty good, because it has more development resources, it's in a more general market and trying to be more competitive, etc. Enterprise-y software companies know that all they need to do is feed the CIO enough bullshit terms for them to sign off on the contract; they know the end-user has no say on what software choice is made, so it's 100% marketing.

      (That's also why so much enterprise-y is extremely general purpose. If you ask an IBM rep, there's literally no business function Lotus Notes isn't capable of-- web server? You got it. Point of sale? No problem.)

    3. Re:You need to fix yourself first by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      i use a lot of free software that has very good usability

      Is this your personal opinion or have you conducted studies? Because if the former, then you have missed the point.

    4. Re:You need to fix yourself first by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I'll play devil's advocate for Notes - at least they try to be user-friendly, but I just don't know how they can fail to make it work (not cock it up like other companies), they try their hardest and it just comes out wrong.

      The others are made from pure Elbonian mud. I know the difference for small v large companies too, there is a case for going with a small company because it is responsive to the needs of the customer. Big companies are only responsive to their own needs. I think the same applies to software projects too, and partly explains the popularity of the better OSS projects. Long may they continue.

  10. Nothing to see here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just had a look at TFA. The author doesn't even care to say what useability is and why it is so poor in FOSS.

    Next try, please...

  11. Style over substance? by Sfing_ter · · Score: 1

    I have been using free and open source software for over 10 years now, and i would rather have a square block that does what i want it to do when i want it done than have a nice 3D cube with bevelled edges and drop shadows that breaks because of reason x not allowing me to complete my desired task. Just like in any engineering job when the tool you need is not made then you make the tool yourself, once the tool is being used by many people then some corp decides to chrome it and mass produce it. Isn't that what DeadRat and Apple are for?

    --
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
    1. Re:Style over substance? by pdusen · · Score: 1

      RTFA

    2. Re:Style over substance? by chuckymonkey · · Score: 1

      That's the difference between people like us and people like a large portion of the rest of the general populace. I use function over form all the time, hence I love the command line. I also have an engineering bent so I'm a little more interested in getting things done than having oooo...pretty all over the place. That being said there is something to having a composited desktop such as compiz. Some of the window and trailfocus features really do enhance function as well as form, some of the other things make it a little bit easier on the eyes as well. Anyway if we want FOSS to have a larger user base and hence better support from device makers then we have to make it appeal to the rest of the populace that does choose form over function. Also I'm not trying to troll about all the other people, hell my wife is one of the people that likes the oooo...pretty features, it's just that people have to recognize that most people are not like most of those of us on Slashdot.

      --
      "Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
    3. Re:Style over substance? by grahamd0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're confusing graphic design and UI design. They're completely separate disciplines.

      Most UI designers I've met are not good graphic designers, and most good graphic designers I've met are not good UI designers.

    4. Re:Style over substance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the difference between people like us and people like a large portion of the rest of the general populace. I use function over form all the time, hence I love the command line.

      My, how pretentious. There have been major advances in domain specific user interfaces since bash appeared. Right now, I am using a highly customized tiling window manager to call forth xterms running Rush, the Ruby Shell. Editing is done with Vim. I have used similar set ups with Squeak, a SmallTalk VM. Outside of my text editing duties, my entire workflow is automated. From pulling a check out, to unit testing, to committing and installing.

      There is a lot more to usability than how the WM looks, or even if it composites. Like using consistent and non-conflicting keyboard shortcuts. Or providing powerful abstractions with simple, orthogonal interfaces (very much unlike the GNU toolchain, where simplicity goes out the window). Linux might composite, but it fails at simplicity unless the user puts a lot of work into it. I had to learn Haskell to get a decent WM working to complement the rest of my environment.

      Whoever decided Windows-style copy pasting was a good idea in Unix-like environments need to be pilloried.

    5. Re:Style over substance? by gilgongo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most UI designers I've met are not good graphic designers, and most good graphic designers I've met are not good UI designers.

      Spot on. I am a UI designer. I have no clue how to use Photoshop, and I don't need to know because that's what the graphic designers use.

      I just wish the "creatives" hadn't hijacked the word "design" (and "creative" for that matter).

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    6. Re:Style over substance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell, most UI designers I've met are not good UI designers, and many graphics designers I've met are not good graphics designers either.

    7. Re:Style over substance? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Proof of pudding: Most Flash websites are by creatives, and most Flash websites are almost entirely un-usable. There's nothing technologically wrong with Flash that makes it impossible to make usable sites, the creative types simply don't know, or don't care, about the difference.

    8. Re:Style over substance? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I also have an engineering bent so I'm a little more interested in getting things done than having oooo...pretty all over the place.

      First of all, "oooo.... pretty all over the place" has absolutely nothing to do with usability.

      Second of all, for a lot of people, "getting things done" is defined as "adjusting the white balance of photos," "splicing together different videos and adding captions," "chatting with my brother on the phone," "play the latest Unreal game," or other tasks that are literally impossible to do without GUIs.

      You're happy with the CLI; that's fine. But you must realize that you represent a minuscule percentage of the population; the vast majority of the population simply can not complete their task in the CLI, even if they were willing to learn it. And two more points:

      1) Your CLI is made ten times more useful if its in a GUI than if it's not. I find that most people like you, who make the claim "everything I need to do is in the CLI" (or the even more stupid claim, "everything everybody needs to do is in the CLI") are actually using windowed terminals, taking advantage of tons of GUI features while "just using" their CLI. (If you do actually run a text-mode terminal with no GUI, apologies.)

      2) If you're happy with the CLI, then why are you even commenting in here? You're already happy with what you have, so let's leave this thread for the people who aren't happy with what they have. Ok?

    9. Re:Style over substance? by chuckymonkey · · Score: 1

      Did you even read my post or just the first sentence? I mention that I like some of the desktop effects as well as that most people are not like me. I also wasn't going after anyone, I was commenting that the tools fit the person, for me it's the command line (yes I do use text mode, my mainframes at work don't have X11), for my wife it's a pretty gui, I also say at the end that we need to make FOSS more user friendly for the general populace. Really, I mean that. I want better device compatibility so I want more penetration to the desktop of things such as Linux and BSD, next time please read the whole thing, I really am not trying to offend people.

      --
      "Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
  12. It is the thought process by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    UNIX programmers (the majority of FOSS developers) design software the way that they would want it to be used. It makes sense to other programmers and it is actually probably the simplest way to operate if you have the base knowledge. Users, on the other hand, focus less on the architecture of the software they are using than on the front end. Windows and Mac OS X systems and applications are easy to use because the front end has been designed to meet all usual purposes, even if it cuts back on the functionality. Linux and most UNIX systems and applications are harder to use because they are built with the architecture of the code in mind. A good UNIX program can easily work with other UNIX programs, and a good UNIX program is made as general as possible to maximize speed and reduce bloat as the program advances. A 'good' Windows program is made for only one cycle, not the entire development lifetime. Firefox is a good example of a program that meets both the UNIX and the Windows definitions of a good program. But Firefox is very rare, and there have been multiple revolts over de-generalizing the code for a single release.

    I think application programmers should keep the Firefox success in mind when they develop code, even though it will be much more expensive and time consuming than the UNIX mentality since they will have to keep stopping what they are doing to release and polish versions for users (essentially dead forking every couple of months).

    1. Re:It is the thought process by skulgnome · · Score: 1

      The fucked up thing here is that the average user no longer has the base knowledge. This used to be very different back in, say, the 1980s -- my father, working in the regional VAT administration, then in his fifties, learned command line UNIX just fine so he could send E-mail from his terminal and so forth. That was considered basic knowledge, so people studied it and it worked and everything worked just fine.

      So in the end what GUIs have given us is pseudo-WYSIWYG (which never comes out like it looks), and dumb users who think that drooling on a mouse is all they should have to learn. Fucking _duh_.

      Worst part of it all? It turns out that there's a very significant percentage of a post-industrialized nation's population for whom double clicking with the mouse is a very difficult task, mainly because _dragging_ and _single clicking_ are very similar to double clicking. Those people do far better with a typewriter-like interface, because they've damn well used typewriters in the past (because it used to be part of basic schooling). They're perfectly OK with typing "oowriter" on a command line. Now they can't, because pointing and drooling is the Officially Dominant Interaction Style.

      Fuck it all. Fuck it all in the ass.

    2. Re:It is the thought process by gilgongo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Users, on the other hand, focus less on the architecture of the software they are using than on the front end.

      By "focus less" I assume you mean "neither know no care."

      To a user of something like a word processor, a web site, or an air conditioning control console, the UI IS the application. There is no architectural consideration of any kind.

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    3. Re:It is the thought process by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Ding ding ding. Mod this guy up.

      If the user can't find the feature in your UI, the feature Does. Not. Exist. UI is the number one most important concern when developing software intended for end-users.

      I always chuckle when some OS X software advertises that it was "built with Cocoa" or Windows software advertises that it's "built with .Net." As if I, or any rational person, gave a flying shit. The API the software is built on is an implementation detail, not a feature-- so is the web server technology chosen (for all you LAMP developers.) Nobody cares about implementation details except the implementers.

    4. Re:It is the thought process by dturk · · Score: 0

      Worst part of it all? It turns out that there's a very significant percentage of a post-industrialized nation's population for whom double clicking with the mouse is a very difficult task, mainly because _dragging_ and _single clicking_ are very similar to double clicking. Those people do far better with a typewriter-like interface, because they've damn well used typewriters in the past (because it used to be part of basic schooling). They're perfectly OK with typing "oowriter" on a command line. Now they can't, because pointing and drooling is the Officially Dominant Interaction Style.

      This is highly true, at least among my family members. I don't even want to think about the legions of people out there convinced they're "bad at computers" because they don't have the dexterity, muscle memory, whatever, to double-click or hunt down icons and menu items.

    5. Re:It is the thought process by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      The presence of a gui does not preclude the presence of a CLI option.

      If it does, the program lacks proper delineation between the front and back ends.

      I have both versions of mplayer on my mac. The "click and drool" version allows me to trivally playlist things for that "noisy wallpaper" that is piping vids to my tv. The CLI version has more current code, better efficiency, and lighter weight for when i'm actually focusing my full attention on the app.

      I agree that some users are at a level of naivety where it really is their fault (my mother, for instance - BUT because her needs are far less stringent than mine, she's able to use ubuntu on an everyday basis). Yet, i'm not a naive user and I have a lot of trouble with a great many OSS guis.

      I had to train myself on VLC for instance, and I still don't understand it all because their prefpanes are (apparently) based on the structure of the underlying code rather than logical categories. This doesn't mean features or configurability need to be stripped to "streamline" it. Personally, I'd suggest taking each configurable setting they have right now and placing it in a "naive user defined" basket.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    6. Re:It is the thought process by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      Linux and most UNIX systems and applications are harder to use because they are built with the architecture of the code in mind. A good UNIX program can easily work with other UNIX programs, and a good UNIX program is made as general as possible to maximize speed and reduce bloat as the program advances.

      The unix philosophy is actually do one thing and do it well not be as general as possible. Which is fine for simple command line utilities but in many areas users are concerned with workflow. They want to use one application or suite of applications to acheive the tasks they need to do in a particular problem domain with minimal fuss. Not string together 14 different command line tools in an arse backwards shell scripting language.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    7. Re:It is the thought process by skulgnome · · Score: 1

      Though in VLC's favour, they do have a checkbox where advanced users can go to tinker with whatever they like. Not so with a great many GNOME applications, these days.

  13. maybe I speak only for myself but.. by SirShmoopie · · Score: 0, Troll

    My open source product is mine, to make whatever design decisions I want.

    I tend towards the opinion that if someone wants to dictate usability terms to me, they better be prepared either to submit code, pay me, or to be blunt, get lost.

    Personally, I like coding console apps. As far as usability goes, this is stone age stuff, but it works for me.

    Quite a few people have talked about improving my application suite with 'pure virtual interfaces', or just packing it into a GUI app, but none have actually contributed functional code.

    I much prefer to spend my time working deep in the algorithms of my software, because coding those is a pleasure for me. Anything else just doesn't hold my interest.

    1. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by Mistshadow2k4 · · Score: 1

      I tend towards the opinion that if someone wants to dictate usability terms to me, they better be prepared either to submit code, pay me, or to be blunt, get lost

      And this attitude is why you won't get paid for it. The free software you code is a resume, whether you submit it or not. If your attitude is "it works good enough for me, fuck you", your prospective employer will hire someone who listens to the users of their software. They wil think you're just going to do it good enough to get your money and won't care about making it usable enough for them -- and, given your attitude, they'd probably be right.

      --
      I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
    2. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by pdusen · · Score: 1

      And that's all perfectly fine if you don't intend for lots of people in the general public to use your program, for example, if you have some sort of niche program. This article seems to specifically apply to programs that are meant to gain widespread use in the population.

    3. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by SirShmoopie · · Score: 1

      If your attitude is "it works good enough for me, fuck you", your prospective employer will hire someone who listens to the users of their software. They wil think you're just going to do it good enough to get your money and won't care about making it usable enough for them -- and, given your attitude, they'd probably be right.

      Actually, my open source program has got me jobs, even though that's not why I maintain it, and is fairly widely used.

      What does that do to your theory?

    4. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I ask what the program is?

    5. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by Narishma · · Score: 1

      How do you know the parent even wants to work as a developer and be paid for his work? He didn't say anything about that.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    6. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by SirShmoopie · · Score: 1

      May I ask what the program is?

      The last time I answered that my site got slashdotted and my web stats were thrown out for a month, so no.

    7. Re:maybe I speak only for myself but.. by gilgongo · · Score: 1

      I much prefer to spend my time working deep in the algorithms of my software, because coding those is a pleasure for me. Anything else just doesn't hold my interest.

      This guy got modded troll. Seems like the mods haven't read this book, published by one of the most respected web application developers in the world. Are they trolls too for saying exactly what this guy is saying (amongst other things)?

      Like I said in a previous post. Here be dragons.

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
  14. Anybody else see the humour in this? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 0

    Leaving little things broken. Many of the small details that improve a program's interface are not exciting or satisfying to work on. Details like setting a window's most appropriate size
    ... on a site where the text is displayed on a huge blank white page in a column 2" wide.

    Aye, right, we're *really* interested to hear what *you* have to say about usability.

    1. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by Andyvan · · Score: 1
      I understand the point you're making, but are you aware that really wide columns are harder to read?

      Just saying, it may not be as ironic as you think.

      -- Andyvan

    2. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      So are absurdly narrow fixed-width columns with three or four words per line. I didn't buy a 22" monitor so I could look at masses and masses of whitespace...

    3. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I didn't buy a 22" monitor so I guess I'm one of the lucky few... tens of millions.

    4. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by corychristison · · Score: 1

      Me too ('cept mine is 24" - SyncMaster 245b)... The new browsers support min-width/min-height and max-width/max-height.

      Why not use it?

    5. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I didn't buy a 22" monitor so I could look at masses and masses of whitespace...

      You prefer tightly-packed, illegible seas of text then? I'm guessing you are not a graphic designer, having made that comment. White space is your friend and white space isn't determined by how many columns our how wide the columns are either. You can have plentiful white space in one column text.

    6. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Yes, but my

      point is this:

      The article looks

      like this on my

      screen. There's

      no real need to

      have such a narrow

      column of text.

      Oh, and as it happens, no, I'm not a graphic designer, I just happen to know a bit about web design and typography, having done it for rather more than a decade.

    7. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      yeah, I got that much (the skinny column being no good), but my point is that one big block of text is no good either. White space is good and can be achieved even in one-column spreads is all I'm saying.

    8. Re:Anybody else see the humour in this? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      ... columns with three or four words per line.

      I dunno how you could be getting this, unless your system is pretty messed up or you have a buggy browser or something. In the linked article, I'm counting around 10-15 words per line of text, not three or four. And that amount is near-perfect, based on scientific research into readability and line-length.

      That's actually a very well-deigned web page for its purpose, and the length of the written material. 90% of pages I encounter these days are far worse. The light-gray background is icing on the cake, taking away the harshness of a white background, without inducing the text-burn of dark backgrounds.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  15. First steps by CBravo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My suggestions: start a Usability Level Group where one can see which level of usability the application has ( for platform X).

    Things to consider (remember: using starts with considering installation):
    -does it compile cleanly?
    -is it pre-packaged?
    -is it in the standard repositories?
    -is there a manual and man page
    -are there examples which can be followed
    -(if relevant) are there screenshots
    -are all options of the application available in the GUI
    -let people vote about the quality of the above

    First you have to obtain a means to measure usability (by the users is best, I guess).

    --
    nosig today
    1. Re:First steps by AdamInParadise · · Score: 1

      No offense but Usability has nothing to do with most of these points.

      First, many of them deal with "Ease of installation." While it is an important concern, most users don't have to deal with this problem. For them, the application is either already installed or just a click away in a package manager.

      Second, the presence of examples, or whether all the options of the options of the application are available in the GUI are not good measures: it is possible to build an "unusable" application that fulfills both points.

      So the only interesting point is to let people vote about the quality of the examples and options. This is a hotly debated idea. Personally, I think that the only real solution is to find someone with the skills (and clout!) to address the problems and to let her/him choose an improvement process tailored to the issues at hand.

      --
      Nobox: Only simple products.
    2. Re:First steps by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      "-are all options of the application available in the GUI" almost all OSS software I know fails in this check.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    3. Re:First steps by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      "-are all options of the application available in the GUI"

      almost all OSS software I know fails in this check.

      not that that's necessarily a drawback.

      The application could be incredibly powerful, far more-so than it's non-oss competitors, and still offer the same more more options configurable from the UI plus additional options.

      I suppose the GP poster simply didn't feel like spelling out such nuances, but it's rather important.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    4. Re:First steps by CBravo · · Score: 1

      The first n points are to establish the fact that it is meant to be usable. The last one is to measure if it fulfills that.

      Upto now, usability is scattered among FOSS. Make it something standardized, talked about.

      --
      nosig today
    5. Re:First steps by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      First, many of them deal with "Ease of installation." While it is an important concern, most users don't have to deal with this problem. For them, the application is either already installed or just a click away in a package manager.

      That was one of the questions: "is it in the standard repositories?" = "is it just a click away in a package manager?" Of course this relies on "is it pre-packaged?"

      However, while these are all important aspects of usability from the end user's perspective, they're often completely beyond the control of the developer. If I develop a piece of software, I probably don't get to choose whether your distro's repositories include my package. If I don't use your distro myself, I may not even know how to build a package. That's up to your distro's package maintainers.

      I've never used NetBSD, but a Perl script I released is in NetBSD's package thingie, because somebody who does use NetBSD made an OS-specific patch, packaged it up, and submitted it for inclusion. Somebody else did the same for FreeBSD Ports, which I'm also fairly unfamiliar with. This undoubtedly improves the usability for people running those OSes, but as the developer, I had nothing to do with that.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    6. Re:First steps by jimicus · · Score: 1

      -let people vote about the quality of the above

      First you have to obtain a means to measure usability (by the users is best, I guess).

      That's a great idea, but it suffers from two minor issues:

      1. You're essentially agreeing on design by committee. Not a process with a history of producing clean, elegant solutions.
      2. It works great if you're trying to clean up the interface slightly for existing users. It sucks royally if you're trying to bring in a new class of user. If you need an example of this, see practically any slashdot story which mentions the Gimp in the summary.

    7. Re:First steps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry but this is completely wrong.

      -does it compile cleanly?
      -is it pre-packaged?
      -is it in the standard repositories?
      -is there a manual and man page
      -are there examples which can be followed
      -(if relevant) are there screenshots

      How are these relevant from a usability perspective? Who cares about man pages and standard repositories? this is talking about UI usability. Me and you know how to delve into the code and figure out how to do or fix something, your average user does not, and does not care usually.

      -are all options of the application available in the GUI

      Wrong! having all options available in GUI isn't a good usability measure at all.

      You need options that make sense to the user and that the user cares about.

      -let people vote about the quality of the above

      Most of the time, the user does not know what he/she wants. It doesn't mean that you or me know either. All it means is that you need a usability expert to decide on that.

    8. Re:First steps by pbhj · · Score: 1

      (remember: using starts with considering installation)

      I disagree, they are nearly all points about system administration - that's not usability unless you are considering usability of a computer system from point of view of a sys admin, which I don't think you are.

      Nielson's heuristics are a good starting point: http://www.useit.com/papers/heuristic/heuristic_list.html

    9. Re:First steps by CBravo · · Score: 1

      Since most home users have permissions to install software: yes I do.

      --
      nosig today
    10. Re:First steps by CBravo · · Score: 1

      1. No I do not. I have not given any method to solve 'unusable' applications. I want usability 'on the radar' instead of fragmentized. How you get that large radar cross section is irrelevant.

      2. LOL. Maybe there need to exist two UI's of the Gimp (ducks). Upto now maybe half of the gimp-endusers are not satisfied. We, as a community, have not yet come up with a way to deal with that (technically or otherwise) other than to say 'RTFM' etc etc. However, I sort of agree that it is a hard problem.

      --
      nosig today
    11. Re:First steps by jimicus · · Score: 1

      2. LOL. Maybe there need to exist two UI's of the Gimp (ducks). Upto now maybe half of the gimp-endusers are not satisfied. We, as a community, have not yet come up with a way to deal with that (technically or otherwise) other than to say 'RTFM' etc etc. However, I sort of agree that it is a hard problem.

      I've used Photoshop too - I'd hardly describe it as the zenith of usability. Unless you're familiar with the ideas involved with multilayer image editing tools complete with layer masks and other such things, both are dogs to use.

      The big advantages photoshop have are:

      1. Familiarity. That's what most UI-complainers really mean when they say "usability".
      2. Proper CMYK, 16bpp colour depth support and integration with colour-correction tools for monitors and printers. This is a field which is laced with patents and of very little interest to your average casual user. It's almost certainly beyond the interest level of the "itch-scratching" crowd.

    12. Re:First steps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While this list does represent a decent selection of things to review to ensure that you're ready to release a gui package, what does any of that have to do with usability?.

  16. Read Gruber's post too by Twid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At the bottom the article links to John Gruber's "Ronco Spray-on Usability" article, which also provides a lot of background on the challenges of good interface design.

    In the original article, I think the most important point is number 8 - "Scratching their own itch." I can see how programmers interested in, for example, having a stable and scalable web server would work on Apache. I don't see the same passion coming from a human interface designer to fix, for example, the horrible user interface for joining wireless networks on desktop linux.

    In my opinion the only way the user interface will get fixed is if Ubuntu or another distro pays for expert user interface folks to fix UI issues. I don't see the volunteer community being up to the task.

    --
    - "When you want something with all your heart, the entire universe conspires to give it to you" -Paulo Coelho
    1. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Telvin_3d · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree that the community is not up to the task. However, I suspect that we are not talking about the same community.
      Let's say that tomorrow I posted an improved layout design to the trac. Descriptions of the various elements, mockup images, UI icons and elements, new error messages, the works. What are the odds that it gets implemented? Seriously? I can't program, but I do decent layout and usability. From my own experience and that of others I suspect that I could post mockups and suggestions on the trac and forums until I am blue in the face.

      Even if an entire squadron of UI specialists descended on a linux distro, went through the whole thing and posted up a unified UI design for every level of the system do you really think it would get implemented?

      Let's be honest, there are always a million posts and bug reports floating around saying things along the lines of "I'm a regular user who tried to use X feature/menu. It didn't work well because it is missing A,B and C options, and D, E and F are in the wrong menu". If the linux/free software community had any track record of responding to those with 'well, I guess that needs to be fixed' instead of 'read the documentation/use commend line workaround with -r hfg blarg whatamidoing +7' linux would be a better experience than OS X by now.

    2. Re:Read Gruber's post too by lysse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The "scratching their own itch" point is good, but the article's author misses an important corollary. The person who has scratched their own itch will develop a program as far as they need to for it to be usable to them - unless another piece of software comes along and short-circuits the process. And arguably, if a piece of software is usable to the person who wrote it for the task they wrote it for, its primary usability criteria are satisfied.

      Anything after that - ie. everything this article is concerned with - is marketing... making something attractive to people who aren't already using it. There isn't actually any need to do it; it's something you do if you want your userbase to grow, but without a fairly direct incentive to do it - whether that's a financial incentive (consumer software) or the staunch belief that there needs to be a free alternative (the usual FOSS poster kids) - nobody's going to do it, unless something gets in their way directly. The situation is compounded if it becomes easier to write one's own X than to modify an X already available - you end up with lots and lots of Xs that are finished only to a point where their development teams find them sufficient.

    3. Re:Read Gruber's post too by JohnFluxx · · Score: 3, Informative

      This post really annoyed me.

      Go to http://bugs.kde.org/ and have a look at the types of bug reports we get and look at the responses.

      I personally work on the task manager. I get around 1 bug report a day. Out of them, perhaps 1 in 20 is a suggestion for improving usability. And I have never received anything approaching a UI design document.

      I have registered my app on www.openusability.org as well as with the internal kde usability group, and I browse forums for suggestions. And despite all this, I _still_ have not found a usability expert who has time to work on this app.

      For the whole of the KDE project we have I think only 1 (maybe 2?) trained usability experts. There is far more demand than supply.

      The fact is that people are willing to bitch about some app not being usable, but they are far less likely to put the effort into trying to come up with a good alternative solution and work with developers to get it implemented.

    4. Re:Read Gruber's post too by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      The situation is compounded if it becomes easier to write one's own X than to modify an X already available - you end up with lots and lots of Xs that are finished only to a point where their development teams find them sufficient.

      all too often this is the case.

      projects should always take care to extensively document their code to prevent this kind of thing.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    5. Re:Read Gruber's post too by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      I think you must have missed Gruber's most recent post, which says it's more a question of authority. And I agree. There are plenty of usability experts out there who would volunteer their time, but who's to say anyone will listen?

    6. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Yer+Mum · · Score: 1

      I would not say that the overall attitude that KDE development team has towards end users (and therefore usability) helps. As examples, there are quotes by developers such as KDE doesn't need users, it needs contributors and launching KDE 4.0 and completely failing to get across that it should have been called KDE 4.0 alpha 1.

      Even if a KDE user were to propose changes with UI mockups, etc... I rather doubt that few KDE developers would be receptive to them. From the developer's point of view there's no problem at all because their application is entirely usable. The user's changes just amount to one person's opinion against another's instead of a measurable goal (a bugfix) and a developer doesn't have to overhaul their application just on someone's else's say so.

      Perhaps if KDE development team sets up some usability studies to identify problems that would be a first step, but given their current attitude towards users it seems unlikely that that'll happen.

    7. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think a concerted effort like that would be well received... If not by the original developers, then by a secondary set that would fork the project. It's happened before, and it could happen again... And when the original developers lose most users to the new design, they take a good fresh look at it... And everything is combined again. (No, I don't have the example off the top of my head.)

      The real problem would be what happens just after you get started. The truly negative people would bombard you with 'your design sucks' and 'how could you possibly think you know better than the developers!' messages before it was even out of the planning phase. It's immensely disheartening, and tends to kill projects that don't have an iron will.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    8. Re:Read Gruber's post too by shaka · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest, there are always a million posts and bug reports floating around saying things along the lines of "I'm a regular user who tried to use X feature/menu. It didn't work well because it is missing A,B and C options, and D, E and F are in the wrong menu". If the linux/free software community had any track record of responding to those with 'well, I guess that needs to be fixed' instead of 'read the documentation/use commend line workaround with -r hfg blarg whatamidoing +7' linux would be a better experience than OS X by now.

      Let's be honest, if those one million posts and bug reports had been implemented, there would be a million options in all menus and the programmers would be busy moving around options between menus.

      The people who suggest to add A, B and C to X menu are not always right. That's why a project needs someone ultimately responsible for usability, who can grasp the bigger picture and judge which suggestions should go in, which should be changed/merged, and which should be ignored.

      --
      :wq!
    9. Re:Read Gruber's post too by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with exactly in Jason's blog. Technically KDE does need contributors rather than users. It was all based on Troy's blog that _certain_ users are poisonous to the project. Ones that just critize non-constructively, getting people down without helping in any way.

      > Even if a KDE user were to propose changes with UI mockups, etc... I rather doubt that few KDE developers would be receptive to them

      Honestly, give it a try. I can't think of any developer that wouldn't be willing to work with artists on improving their app.

      I think you are just seeing what you want to see.

    10. Re:Read Gruber's post too by pbhj · · Score: 1

      Even if an entire squadron of UI specialists descended on a linux distro, went through the whole thing and posted up a unified UI design for every level of the system do you really think it would get implemented?

      Usability isn't entirely objective. Consistency is an important element and consistency (eg using standard widget layouts) is part of a users previous experience.

      The problem I see with your scenario is that for those already using the system the usability will initially decrease. A lot of work to reduce the usability of a system! This is how you get such complaints about the "ribbon" in MS Word, etc., it's just unfamiliar.

      KDE4 has changed a lot vs. 3. This sort of change is a great opportunity to introduce usability structures as users are expecting to have to relearn elements of the DE.

    11. Re:Read Gruber's post too by lavaface · · Score: 1

      Desktop linux can certainly improve some aspects of its usabilty, but choosing wireless network connectivity is a horrible example. In Ubuntu, its simply a matter of clicking the signal bars (a widely understood glyph) in the upper right corner of the screen (right next to the volume control.) Apple does the same thing. To top things off, my cheap wireless PCI card was recognized right off the bat in Ubutu 8.04, which is certainly more than can be said for Windows XP. I am new to Ubuntu but find most tasks are very intuitive. More so than XP and maybe even OS X.

    12. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Yer+Mum · · Score: 1

      Going on into Troy's blog...

      "From a cynical point of view, the only real benefit to KDE of having users is that some users turn into developers. This directly benefits the KDE project, the code, and the KDE developers who are writing the software (essentially) for themselves. Marketing in Open Source is a bit of a misnomer anyway, as we don't really benefit directly from having more users."

      [...]

      "KDE and open source is not ever obligated to please users. We are not obligated to fix bugs. We are not obligated to implement things that you demand. We are not obligated to provide open forums for you to attack us personally. If you are kind to us, we might do some of those things."

      Given this attitude, do you think that KDE would set up usability studies?

      Granted someone offering a developer individual help is nice if one program's UI is overly difficult to use, but MacOS didn't get famous for its ease-of-use because of certain individual applications in the OS were easy to use, it became famous because the whole OS was easy to use and Apple laid down the law to third parties.

      My point being that KDE needs a coherent system-wide interface and to achieve that the first step is to undertake system-wide usability studies, however quotes like this from lead developers suggest that this this won't happen.

      Someone outside the inner circle could always set up their own usability studies, but I doubt they'd be either a) acted upon or b) well received.

    13. Re:Read Gruber's post too by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Okay what specifically are you disagreeing with?

      Troy is 100% correct. What part are you saying is wrong? KDE doesn't benefit directly from having more users. This is a fact. A company benefits directly from having more customers because that in turn directly gives them more income.

      For KDE the benefits are much more subtle. More users does end up with more users becoming developers. Also more users puts more pressure on hardware companies etc.

      It sounds to me that you are hearing something that you admit is true, but don't want to admit to being true.

      You are really not getting the point of Troy's post.

      He is attacking people who are abusive and are outright rude with their demands.

      I bet if you sent a polite email to even Troy saying that you want to conduct a usability study for whatever software he works on, he'll be more than happy.
      If you send Troy a rude email telling him his software sucks, he'll probably tell you to go jump.

    14. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fix, for example, the horrible user interface for joining wireless networks on desktop linux.

      <sarcasm>
      You mean the interface where you click on the wireless network icon, get a pop-up list of available networks and select one and join it? Yeah, that's really horrible.

      We should switch to the Vista model, where you get a couple more dialog boxes, and then it tells you that it got an unknown error joining the network.

      Or we should switch to the Macintosh model, where it changes its default network choice haphazardly and at inconvenient times.
      </sarcasm>

      In my opinion the only way the user interface will get fixed is if Ubuntu or another distro pays for expert user interface folks to fix UI issues. I don't see the volunteer community being up to the task.

      They do. Which is why Ubuntu and SuSE usability is actually better than the crap that Microsoft and Apple are shipping.

    15. Re:Read Gruber's post too by sp332 · · Score: 1

      Um, I think these many projects would LOVE to have someone do this for them, and would be very willing to implement any solid suggestions you might have. Firefox, for example, has this sort of thing going on already:

      http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox:Add-ons_Manager_UI

    16. Re:Read Gruber's post too by Yer+Mum · · Score: 1

      Okay, one more time.

      The inner circle of developers doesn't really care about users, they care about contributors. That much has already been admitted. If they did care about users they would have set up usability studies by now under their own initiative, but they haven't.

      And as they are more focused towards the needs of contributors/developers, even if someone were to devise and carry out KDE usability studies, it's debatable if they would want to overhaul KDE according to these findings.

      Contributors and developers like to tweak their UI settings and like things complicated and KDE serves them well in this regard. On the other hand users just want it to work; the suggestion of turning KDE into Gnome would probably be as well received as a cold cup of sick by the people who matter as well as KDE's contributors.

    17. Re:Read Gruber's post too by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Okay one more time back to you.

      Of course the inner circle of developers care about users. We code, for free, to develop software with the ultimate aim for it to be used! To say that we don't care about users is just plain daft.

      > If they did care about users they would have set up usability studies by now under their own initiative, but they haven't.

      Except we did. http://www.openusability.org/ and KDE has its own internal usability group with approx 10 people, 1 or 2 of which are professionally trained. They are swamped with requests, and as I've said - there is _far_ more demand than supply.

      To give an example, the start menu replacement in KDE4 was done with a large amount of usability testing, funded by Novell/Suse. You can download the videos of the user testing if you want to.

      > And as they are more focused towards the needs of contributors/developers, even if someone were to devise and carry out KDE usability studies, it's debatable if they would want to overhaul KDE according to these findings.

      KDE is continually overhauled to try to fix problems. I personally work on the task manager and have drastically overhauled it from KDE3 to KDE4 based on (rather short) talks with a usability expert. The start menu was completely replaced, the run menu was completely replaced, and so on.

      As I've said - seriously, just email pretty much any project group in KDE saying that you wish to do a serious usability analysis, and they will be very happy indeed.

      > Contributors and developers like to tweak their UI settings and like things complicated and KDE serves them well in this regard. On the other hand users just want it to work;

      'Users' are a very wide range of people. To suggest that all users want no customization is just plain silly. I personally believe that there is no problem with having as much customization, as long as that customization does not get in the way or confuse ordinary users. There's no point removing an option if an ordinary user would never come across it, for example.
      It is always good to provide sensible defaults that make it work well for ordinary users.

  17. Who is it useful to? by Scotman · · Score: 1

    A product is of on value until it is placed in the hands of someone that can use it. Open source will never best companies like Microsoft and Apple because most of the world can't use it's unfriendly products. Taking the care to ensure that the software is usable by an end user is what gives it a finishing touch that customers will respond to. Case in point is the Apple corporation. I don't know that they have a shred of technical innovation in them, yet the simple act of making technology both sexy and friendly has turned them into a giant.

  18. Few Good Designers by Leading+Stoker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That article hit it on the head. There's 1001 programmers in the world, who are excellent coders and whip through the strings like a first chair, but there's very few project designers in freeware. They concentrate so much of function (which, yes, is critical!), but forget about ergonomics and userability (especially *how* end users can and will use their product, and ways to cut out excessive keystrokes or right clicks). The end users winds up getting a proggie that can function well, but such a chore to operate (or even painful, if it not ergonomically friendly). As we more and more get "connected" to computing, it's no longer just being on a keyboard or using a mouse an hour or two a day. Now it's more like 8+ hrs. Programmers need to consider the impact of their software, and beyond how it functions itself, but the whole project. That's where product design is so crucial, and something not just best left up to management to figure.

  19. New design paradigm required by gilgongo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am a UI designer by trade, and many is the time I have thought about wading in to a F/LOSS project in order to improve the usability of the interface (last one I considered was IPCop). While I agree with most of TFA, it doesn't seem to emphasise the real point for me, which is that UI design for free software requires radically different skills *from the designer* to that which are necessary in the commercial world.

    Because people are so tolerant of awful UI, good UI designers are all about persuasion, charm, leadership and inclusiveness without losing focus. To achieve this commercially is not easy, but at least somebody has hired you in an expectation that you will do this work. Grabbing a bunch of elite coders and trying to persuade them to change their stuff is a massive challenge, even if you have VoIP, virtual whiteboards, etc. I would not expect maintainers to understand, appreciate or tolerate my intervention, mainly down to the reasons the article cites, and I'm not sure I'd be able to persuade them otherwise. Usability is not obvious and often requires a leap of faith, an abandonment of the wrong kind of complexity, and very often a lot of pain.

    Still, the more we have these discussions, the better, and I hope the article gets read by a lot of Slashdotters for that reason.

    --
    "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    1. Re:New design paradigm required by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      But which open source projects have you tried to join? Obviously, if the developers are hardcore Unix gurus who are still using commandline email clients, then they're not likely to listen to you.

      But you have you tried joining GNOME, KDE or even Firefox? They're devoting a lot of effort into usability. They're constantly trying to improve it. They're the kind of people who *want* professional user interface designers to contribute. You should try it.

    2. Re:New design paradigm required by SashaM · · Score: 1

      I am a UI designer by trade, and many is the time I have thought about wading in to a F/LOSS project in order to improve the usability of the interface (last one I considered was IPCop).

      Perhaps you should actually try before giving up. I'm sure there are many projects out there who would love to have a good UI designer on board. Heck, if you want to help me with my Jin client for chess servers, I would love every bit of what you could offer.

    3. Re:New design paradigm required by scarlac · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say the article is wrong by your words but you are very spot-on with your description of the problem.
      I've been working as a programmer and web-developer for years but two years ago my job took an unwanted turn at the time which turned out to my liking later on - I was forced to work with CSS and HTML and had to develop the skills for taking decisions about GUI.
      Now, for anyone in the web development industry, they would know that most developers are not concerned with the looks, portability or usability - nothing new here.

      Open-source or not: It's still an issue and I would agree that we are stepping towards a paradigm where industries are realizing that they need to combine design and simplicity (indirectly usability) to be successful.

      To my experience the most effective way of pursuading the developers that if they let me handle the frontend-work *they* could save the time cursing over frontend decisions. I found that I got hired time after time because the developers were afraid they would break something or fear they would at all spend time meddling with uninteresting frontend.

      I've personally gotten involved with a couple of OSS projects to help out and make them more attractive to newcommers. One of these is jEdit (www.jedit.org) where I found that they were quite open to suggestions.

      Pursuation is always needed when working with humans. Developers are no different. My secret to others: Be consistent in your claims. Make sure that you have something to offer them - appealing design is an obvious treat for many, but other values such as "consistency" (which is a core focus in usability), "simplicity" and familiarity I find are good values to offer developers since it appeals to good code design as well.

    4. Re:New design paradigm required by KGIII · · Score: 1

      He's thought about it. Thus he's tried to join none.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    5. Re:New design paradigm required by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

      Not all OSS coders are that way. Put me to the test. Contribute to my project and see what I do with it. I'll bet that you will find it to be more along the lines of "thanks for the creative and the advice which I will get to work incorporating into the code" a lot more than "patches welcome."

    6. Re:New design paradigm required by Leading+Stoker · · Score: 1

      The issue is how design takes a back seat to only function. Function is critical (no one likes crashes), but if a program runs swell but the end user is left with an interface as friendly as the man pages...ah, the projects hurts more than it helps.

      There's more to programming than just making sure it does A and doesn't do B. It's also about workflow, and how end users actually use the product for their benefit (end users will surprise programmers in how creative they are with their programs!). If a project team is more into function and "we'll get back to the UI and all later", that project dropped the ball. Userability isn't just some catch word, it's about how the many can best use a product, with the greatest ease and productivity -- not spending hours trying to figure how the interface works, let alone reading man pages that are spotty in the details to even understand the product.

    7. Re:New design paradigm required by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      I already know that. But nobody has offered to help me with UI work so what do you expect me to do?

    8. Re:New design paradigm required by Leading+Stoker · · Score: 1

      Carry a hammer to work. And in some work environments, a literal flamethrower. ;)

      But seriously, the best anyone can do in a situation where management thinks only XYZ, is to be persistent with suggestions (e.g., explain thoroughly why ABC works better, and in a way the business side can understand it better [business logic and the programming logic clashes too often, as each tries to defend it's turf]. Success comes from breaking down barriers where both get benefits). The squeaky wheel is what gets fixed, and heard to get fixed.

      I just hope that software development doesn't go the route gaming is in now, where the reverse is playing out -- design is more important than function. It's the extremes that needs to be avoided, not that function or design are more important.

    9. Re:New design paradigm required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask the guy who started this thread if he'd like to help. He states he's a UI designer by trade and willing to contribute to FOSS projects...

    10. Re:New design paradigm required by slack_prad · · Score: 1

      The only way out is FOSS software which is commercially backed up. Like Ubuntu or Redhat.

      --
      Sent from my desktop computer
    11. Re:New design paradigm required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      good UI designers are all about persuasion, charm, leadership and inclusiveness without losing focus.

      That's a good point, and it sort of begs the question - what if the UI designer with the best people and political skills doesn't have very good ideas, or thinks in a rather plodding and uninspired way (or, alternatively, is the champion of innovative but unsound ideas)? The answer is, bad things will probably happen to the project. Of course, the same scenario can occur with managers, technical architects or lead programmers, etc.

    12. Re:New design paradigm required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... he's talking out of your mom?

    13. Re:New design paradigm required by martyros · · Score: 1

      It might also be a bit of chicken-and-egg problem. I occasionally have ideas for OSS projects that I think would be useful. I've also dabbled enough in UI to know that I don't know jack. So, given that I don't know any UI gurus, how do I take the article's advice that the UI should be designed, or at least sketched-out first, before any coding is done?

      After all (as far as I understand it) most independent open-source projects start with one guy "scratching an itch" that happens to scratch some other people's itches, who start adding stuff until it grows. By the time an actual expert looks at it, won't it most likely be so entrenched in badness that it will require a complete re-write?

      Maybe what we really need is a UI-designer friendly way of making mockups capable of attracting coders. Then instead of coders "scratching an itch", the UI people could "scratch an itch", and then attract coders to fill in the stuff behind it.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

  20. Oh dear. by delphi125 · · Score: 1

    The reason that free software has poor usability is that free software is a subset of software, which is noted for poor usability.

    The vast majority of software is written by and used by a single person, and would probably be hard to use for anybody else. Sometimes these projects get to be free.

    Most of the remainder have a limited target, whether it is an in-house project or free. Some of these are easily usable, but the majority of companies will prefer more features to usability.

    The tiny fraction of "big software" which has serious market penetration comes in three main categories: operating systems, utilities with a free version, and games. Operating systems typically have incredibly poor usability; really successful games almost all have decent usability.

    The only real difference between free and commercial software is that the makers of the latter have a better chance of making a living off it.

  21. awesome! by timothy · · Score: 1

    Now that this problem has been addressed, what about a quick essay on how to fix the poor usability of non-Free software?

    timothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
    1. Re:awesome! by slack_prad · · Score: 1

      Now that this problem has been addressed, what about a quick essay on how to fix the poor usability of non-Free software?

      If non-free software isn't usable, people don't buy it. End of story.

      --
      Sent from my desktop computer
    2. Re:awesome! by chromatic · · Score: 2, Funny

      People don't buy Lotus Notes?

  22. Usability expert with a (little) bit of free time by MadFarmAnimalz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just for the sake of being proactive (and on-topic, oh horror!), a colleague is a usability expert and has acquired a fascination with free software. I thought that jumping in and rolling up his sleeves would be a good induction, so here's asking: anyone sitting on an interesting project with a need for (and willingness to listen to) such a one?

    --
    Blearf. Blearf, I say.
  23. Poor usability? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

    I'm getting tired of hearing this over and over again. For example, in the past 7 years, GNOME has invested an insane amount of effort in usability. Go read about all those professional GNOME usability studies that Sun has funded. Also, go read Ubuntu and "desktop environments", written by the same author who wrote TFA. In that article, he criticizes people for wanting to include a configuration option in Ubuntu's installer which asks the user whether he wants GNOME, KDE or XCFE. He argues that such a choice is simply too confusing to most non-technical people. And indeed, people like my dad and mom don't know, or want to know, what GNOME is.

    In the past 7 years, GNOME has done its best to address exactly that kind of criticism. Almost every single feature is scrutinized with usability in mind. GNOME has been removing more and more configuration options from the user interface in order to make things easier for the average user. In fact, they've done so much their best that the technical audiance, i.e. Slashdot/OSNews/Reddit, is constantly flaming them for removing config options. Yet this same audience is flaming them for not being usable.

    KDE, too, has invested a lot of effort in usability. But what's the community doing? Instead of offering helpful feedback, perhaps mockups or even professional usability studies, they're flaming the developers. By flaming, instead of offering useful feedback, they're discouraging the very people who made the software from improving it. And you're wondering why they're having a hard time?

    Go figure.

    1. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      KDE, too, has invested a lot of effort in usability. But what's the community doing? Instead of offering helpful feedback, perhaps mockups or even professional usability studies, they're flaming the developers. By flaming, instead of offering useful feedback, they're discouraging the very people who made the software from improving it. And you're wondering why they're having a hard time?

      Sure. Blame the users when it was the developers who released a barely-alpha project into the wild without clearly informing users of its unfinished state (the KDE official release page said nothing about it not being ready for everyday use). The KDE4 debacle was caused by poor marketing and communication; the KDE developers should have expected (and deserved) the resultant harsh criticism.

    2. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Ease of use, and ease of learning are two very different things, please do not confuse the two.

    3. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      firefox3 ? give us a break.

      tried installing this on an older Linux distro?

      looks like i will be using opera or elinks.

    4. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      KDE, too, has invested a lot of effort in usability. But what's the community doing? Instead of offering helpful feedback, perhaps mockups or even professional usability studies, they're flaming the developers. By flaming, instead of offering useful feedback, they're discouraging the very people who made the software from improving it. And you're wondering why they're having a hard time?

      Go figure.

      Take in mind that some of the developers were quite rude when kde4 didn't rise up to the expectations, even to normal feedback.
      Perhaps developers, in general lack people skills?

    5. Re:Poor usability? by drew · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the past 7 years, GNOME has done its best to address exactly that kind of criticism. Almost every single feature is scrutinized with usability in mind. GNOME has been removing more and more configuration options from the user interface in order to make things easier for the average user. In fact, they've done so much their best that the technical audiance, i.e. Slashdot/OSNews/Reddit, is constantly flaming them for removing config options. Yet this same audience is flaming them for not being usable.

      I suspect that if you looked closer, you would find that those are not at all the same audiences. In any area, you will find extremes on either end. Look at home theater systems. My wife's ideal remote control would have four buttons- power, play, pause, and volume. On the other hand, there are people out there who actually care about adjusting the balance of the surround sound speakers, picking alternative menu settings on their DVD's, and a variety of other details that my wife never wants to be bothered with. "Usability experts", at least of the variety that work on the GNOME project, don't seem to understand that there is a range of users that they have to support (or at least, should want to support) and seem to aim cleanly for the software equivalent of my wife's remote control. For the most part I've been happy with the improvements that the GNOME developers have made over time, but there have been a number of times that the "more options == less usability" dogma has resulted in the removal of options making a certain program no longer useful to me. Note the distinction there. In those cases, it didn't matter to me whether the new version was more or less usable than the previous version. What mattered was that as a result of the change the new version could no longer acceptably perform the task that I had previously used it for.

      For my part, I think that this author has done a pretty good job of pointing out the problems with the current approach and potential solutions (with one exception- I see no difference between his supposedly conflicting mindsets of "show me the code" and "patches welcome"- to me they both say the same thing) but if the "progress" that we have seen so far is any indication, there is a part of me that would rather that developers ignore him and stick with "software by geeks for geeks" until somebody figures out a better way to balance usability and utility. I do think that there is room for a lot of improvement in usability yet, but I'd like to see it happen in a way that doesn't alienate the people who have already been using the software for years.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    6. Re:Poor usability? by westlake · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?
      .

      The problem is that the Moz Foundation began with a massive infusion of cash and has $70 million or so in new money coming in each year.

      Moz is a full time professionally staffed organization with broad resources.

      The problem is that funding and technical support from Big Daddy Warbucks - Google, Sun, IBM - all the usual suspects - is the exception. Sourceforge is the rule.

      The problem is that as a client OS Linux has a 0.8% market share. Operating System Market Share I hope you can forgive me for saying so, but that isn't much to show for seven years hard work.

      Vista should have a 20% share in the Net Applications stats before year's end.

      Given the weakness in the world economy, that is a number Microsoft can live with. God knows its returns are looking better than Sun's, with profits down 73% last quarter, and no good news in prospect.
      The Mac appears to be stagnating, and its reputation as the "high priced spread" may be to blame.

      But that just takes you back to the same old question.

      If the problem isn't with the UI and isn't with the installer and isn't with the apps why isn't Linux on the desktop gaining any traction?

    7. Re:Poor usability? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

      Yes. Thanks in principle to one small but central part of the UI - awful bar I mean "awesome" bar. I use IE7 without getting the shits with it. If I couldn't install the oldbar and hide unvisited plugins I'd have gone back to Firefox 2. Not trolling either - completely serious. Now if you look at how the FF devs have responded to others feeling the same way - namely telliing those people that this bizzare counter productive change to the UI is the way of the future and that if they don't like it too bad - you start to comprehend that just maybe there is a real problem.

      He argues that such a choice is simply too confusing to most non-technical people. And indeed, people like my dad and mom don't know, or want to know, what GNOME is.

      That's a stupid destructive argument. You might as well argue that a driver doesn't really want to know what a manual vs automatic transmission is, or how to select a gear. The answer to that is: Too bad, you want to drive you need to know something about how to drive. Likewise, here you could give a simple explanation or provide a help button, give a sensible default, and move on.

      r. In fact, they've done so much their best that the technical audiance, i.e. Slashdot/OSNews/Reddit, is constantly flaming them for removing config options.

      Removing options is NOT the way to improve usability. Sensible defaults, and keeping advanced options out of standard dialogs (moving them to an addvanced button, or advanced tab) is the way to do it. Provide the ability for anyone to fix and tweak as much as they like. To continue the car analogy don't weld the bonnet to the car just because most people aren't mechanics.

      By flaming, instead of offering useful feedback, they're discouraging the very people who made the software from improving it.

      There are 2 problems here:
      1) There are lots of idiots out there who neither care about the project nor appreciate the effort - they just want a feature or a problem fixed and are rude about it
      2) People who aren't idiots and do go through proper channels are often discouraged. Significant bugs they take the time to find and report are closed off with WON'T FIX. Their concern is dismissed "This is the way we're doing it from now on". The options they've become reliant on are ripped away from them.

      You have to understand that it's not the end user's job to appreciate the effort. Do you appreciate the effort put in by the mechanics and engineers that produced your car when it's broken down yet again and you're waiting for the auto club??? No, to these people there's something not working about the software. You do need to remind them that they haven't paid for the software and that being polite is better for everyone. However you can't expect them not to get frustrated.

      Both groups end up flaming.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    8. Re:Poor usability? by Leading+Stoker · · Score: 0, Troll

      In the past 7 years, GNOME has done its best to address exactly that kind of criticism. Almost every single feature is scrutinized with usability in mind. GNOME has been removing more and more configuration options from the user interface in order to make things easier for the average user. In fact, they've done so much their best that the technical audiance, i.e. Slashdot/OSNews/Reddit, is constantly flaming them for removing config options. Yet this same audience is flaming them for not being usable.

      Know your audience, as a product rarely pleases both techs and non-techs.

      Furthermore, the problem with GNOME/KDE and any other *nix interface isn't the interface itself, it's the OS that it's trying to be a frontend for, which is very non-friendly to non-techs. If it's non-friendly for new users, there won't be a ground swell of acceptance for the program. Until that OS (and any other that may come on the horizon), and it's third party app programmers and designers truly understand this, the majority will regarded such items as "experimental". They have little time to deal with bugs and 1001 options (that's why they pay for folks to fix and maintain it for them).

    9. Re:Poor usability? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

      Windows has 200 applications with the UI quality of IE7/FF3. Linux has... maybe 10.

      Yes, Firefox has an OK GUI. Not a great one; an OK one*. That's because Mozilla is drowning in Google cash, and actually pays designers to design their product. Firefox is the *exception*, not the *rule*, in Linux-world.

      I'm getting tired of hearing this over and over again. For example, in the past 7 years, GNOME has invested an insane amount of effort in usability. Go read about all those professional GNOME usability studies that Sun has funded.

      I agree that many open source projects are getting better; I don't think anybody really denies that. But are they:
      1) As numerous as the good products on Windows/OS X?
      2) Getting better at the same rate as Windows/OS X?

      The original blog post also brings up a relevant point here, that as long as open source projects simply copy features Apple or Microsoft have already developed, they'll never be *better* than Windows or OS X. Firefox has a good interface, but it doesn't have a single thing that Macintosh System 6 applications didn't do in 1994.

      But what's the community doing? Instead of offering helpful feedback, perhaps mockups or even professional usability studies, they're flaming the developers.

      Maybe that's because they've already tried, and been flamed by the developers. I've been flamed for even super-simple no-brainer bugs, like "control-A should perform the Select All function in the field the text cursor is in."

      What's the point of even trying to help in an environment where the developers won't even acknowledge that the Select All shortcut should work in their app? Or where developers in the year 2008 are entirely unfamiliar with how long menus (perfected since 1985) should work: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1865630&group_id=95717&atid=612382

      --
      * A great UI wouldn't have tabs-within-tabs in the Settings dialog, and the Page Info dialog would update itself in real-time as AJAX-y websites do their thing. Also, what's up with control-mousewheel changing the page's zoom level when the cursor is inside a text field, but not doing it when outside a text field? That quirk gets me every time.

    10. Re:Poor usability? by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Removing config options is bad,
      requiring users to configure programs manually is worse.
      There is mistaken belief that usability is oversimplification or reduction to bare essentials.This is just as wrong as thinking usability consists of familiar interfaces.Interface is just a tool.

      Average user goes with intuition and expects most important things preconfigured,important things to be available through a convenient and direct interface(menus),and everything else/less important stuff available in advanced options,somewhere several clicks away.

      Another thing is,a decent software feedback doesn't use any cryptic messages,or gives no output at all.Users expect some output,not pushing a button for nothing or going through a loops without any visible result.
      Novice users expect a wizard/guide/install process which proceeds in linear fashion and gives informative(to novice users) output without getting much interaction at all,just choosing stuff.

      Software needs clear categories of "what goes where" and option to disable feature XYZ should be in category of features where XYZ belongs,and not some obscure setting in another window labeled "ABC Options" or worse,a text file. Text config files(INI) went out of mainstream since end of MSDOS.
      They are not suitable for desktop users.
      I know it should be available to power users,but keeping it interfaced inside the program is much more useful and intuitive.

    11. Re:Poor usability? by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

      Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

      So is Microsoft the only company in the world that makes commercial software?

      It is not, and I think Opera 9.5 user interface is better than Firefox 3's. May be I'm just used to the interface, or whatever, but I can't stand Firefox 3 in some aspects like the back/forward buttons, mid-button scrolling speed, tab switch behaviour, mouse gestures and file save dialogues.

      I can do stuff much faster and comfortable in Opera than in firefox for those reasons.

      And who really believes that removing config options adds to usability?

      I love the extra config options in Opera!

      In fact, I would like a little more config options, like per-domain zoom settings.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    12. Re:Poor usability? by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      I'm with you on your other points, but I raised my eyebrows at this:

      The Mac appears to be stagnating, and its reputation as the "high priced spread" may be to blame.

      From the link you provided, total Mac share (Mac + MacIntel) is now about 7.8%. That's up from 6.3% this time last year (Q3 2007), and 4.3% the year before that.

      So growth is slowing *slightly*; not unexpected ("low-hanging fruit" has been picked), and I'd hardly call it "stagnating."

      If the problem isn't with the UI and isn't with the installer and isn't with the apps why isn't Linux on the desktop gaining any traction?

      Because it's not being pre-installed on probably 99.9% of PCs consumers buy in stores, and most businesses still have "old guard" IT departments who will stick with buying Windows to the very bitter end.

      As a web developer in a small organization I have to fight with my IT/supervisor constantly about supporting Firefox! There's zero chance of getting either Mac or Linux boxes there.

    13. Re:Poor usability? by westlake · · Score: 1
      So growth is slowing *slightly*; not unexpected
      .

      It simply struck me that nothing much seems to happening Mac-side as we head into the fall - while MS Vista is posting gains of about 1% a month.

      Because it's not being pre-installed on probably 99.9% of PCs consumers buy in stores, and most businesses still have "old guard" IT departments who will stick with buying Windows to the very bitter end

      I think at some point you have to start questioning these arguments.

      OLPC has comfirmed orders of about 700,000 units. Here and in the UMPC or netbook market Linux was supposed to be entering a level playing field - or one tilted in its favor.

      It hasn't quite worked out that way.

      The geek has been on the sidelines cheering whenever WalMart.com enters the lists with an OEM Linux econo-box. Six moths later all has been forgiven and the Vista product outnumbers Linux 50 to 1.

    14. Re:Poor usability? by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      Actually when IE7 first came out it had a couple of nicer UI features. At the time for example the close button for tabs war on the far right hand side of the tab bar rather than on the individual tabs themselves. Earliest version of FF i have on me is 2.0.0.16 in which its fixed so it must have been an early 2 release.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    15. Re:Poor usability? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Almost every single feature is scrutinized with usability in mind. GNOME has been removing more and more configuration options from the user interface in order to make things easier for the average user. In fact, they've done so much their best that the technical audiance, i.e. Slashdot/OSNews/Reddit, is constantly flaming them for removing config options. Yet this same audience is flaming them for not being usable.

      That's because highly technical people often have their own idea of what's usable, and generally want to be able to configure their desktop to meet this idea. Removing options flies in the face of that.

      My mother, on the other hand, isn't about to spend hours trying to get her desktop just the way she wants it - instead, she'll use what she's put in front of (and be very vocal if she doesn't like it). It's people like my mum that Gnome are targeting with their "make the desktop as usable as possible" ideal.

    16. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the same audience. Yes there is a group that believes in usability for your average user. But there is another group who wants software that hasn't been dumbed down.

      Every project has to make a choice. Who is their intended audience? Grandma at home or 20s hacker. The more targeted their audience, the better they can serve them. The broader an audience they try to appeal to, the worse (generally speaking) it is for everyone.

    17. Re:Poor usability? by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      It simply struck me that nothing much seems to happening Mac-side as we head into the fall - while MS Vista is posting gains of about 1% a month.

      Windows PCs get replaced much faster, and remember most new consumer PCs ship with Vista with no XP option. It's not surprising at all that Vista is gaining marketshare at that rate.

      Note that Vista's gains are coming mostly at the expense of Windows XP share, i.e. roughly every percentage gain by Vista comes at a percentage lost for XP.

      That Mac's global share is still increasing 1.5% to 2% every year the last two years in the face of this, isn't bad at all.

      Because it's not being pre-installed on probably 99.9% of PCs consumers buy in stores, and most businesses still have "old guard" IT departments who will stick with buying Windows to the very bitter end

      I think at some point you have to start questioning these arguments.

      OLPC has comfirmed orders of about 700,000 units. Here and in the UMPC or netbook market Linux was supposed to be entering a level playing field - or one tilted in its favor.

      It hasn't quite worked out that way.

      The geek has been on the sidelines cheering whenever WalMart.com enters the lists with an OEM Linux econo-box. Six moths later all has been forgiven and the Vista product outnumbers Linux 50 to 1.

      Despite selling far more than 700,000 units, the iPhone and iPod Touch make up less than 0.25% of hardware out on the net. OLPCs, by virtue of being deployed in less-developed countries, with less access to internet, and possibly accessing localized sites not tracked by Net Applications, simply won't make that big an impression on Linux stats. OLPCs and UMPCs could be increasing Linux boxes by 100,000 units a month and market share still won't show an increase; it's like trying to use an eyedropper to fill a sink when the tap's on.

    18. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

      That's a great example... except that Firefox had the support of usability experts from Humanized.

    19. Re:Poor usability? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Poor usability? Is there really anybody who thinks that Internet Explorer 7's user interface is better than Firefox 3's?

      Unfortunately, that's what is wrong with this thread. There are people (very LOUD people at that) on slashdot who can't accept the fact that just because they are used to one way, or even prefer one way, that there actually are quantifiably better ways to do something.

    20. Re:Poor usability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you've 'invested insane' amounts of effort into something or 'scruitinized' it doesn't mean it's actually fixed. Has an outside usability group actually given feedback? Or was all the work done by those that actually made it?

      Witness just about any government activity - such as star wars/etc.

    21. Re:Poor usability? by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 1

      "If the problem isn't with the UI and isn't with the installer and isn't with the apps why isn't Linux on the desktop gaining any traction?

      Because it doesn't come as the de-facto standard pre-installed OS of choice at the retail outlets (on and off line). When people say, "you should really try linux/bsd/whatever", the response is "Why? My computer already came with windows."

      It always comes down to the "Business Transaction". Corp Decision makers don't take anything without an 8 figure price tag seriously, and grandma has to buy her print shop discs. The consumer mindset is focused on how much things cost. We want to save as much as we can on stuff we buy all the time (hence the food section at walmart, you might as well eat industrial waste...), but when it comes to "things" that others might see, we spend like no tomorrow. Houses, cars, boats, clothes, fancy electronics, etc. And the fact is, most people still equate software with the box it came in.

      --

      Shift happens. Fire it up.
  24. Too many developers around... by Timosch · · Score: 1

    The problem, in my honest opinion, is that free software is quite often used by computer enthusiasts - programmers, that is.
    We - and that goes not only for programmers, but for nearly all people visiting ./ - do not see a great problem in using a command line and fixing things using /bin/sh. Free software is often extremely powerful, and that almost automatically means that it gets complicated. For that reason, many average users - and I'm talking about the guy who does some writing and sometimes plays a game on his Windows box - are to some extend "frightened" of FOSS, thus not using it, which again results in mostly developers using FOSS. And now we have a vicious circle...

  25. No it isn't by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Humans have overall tendencies in what they find easier and harder to use. For example most people find it much harder to memorize lines of commands than to look through a set of icons, hence one of the reasons why GUIs are popular. There's real empirical research that has been done on this, some by psychologists, some by companies like Apple. While you may fall outside the norms for various reasons, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    You also need to be careful in thinking that because you've taken the time to learn something, that means that it is easy. For example I drive a manual transmission vehicle. I have no problems doing so, it is second nature to me, no more problematic than an automatic. However, I am not going to say it is as easy. I remember a rather frustrating learning period when I was getting used to the feel of a clutch and how to shift. It is easy now, but only because I have a lot of experience. It is NOT an easier way of doing things.

    I find this kind of thing fairly prevalent in the OSS world. You'll need to do something and someone will say "It's easy!" and then give a couple commands to run. To them, it does seem easy, because they've trained themselves on it, however that isn't. To a new user that's very hard and uninviting.

    Ignoring this issue doesn't help free software. Telling people "It is just as easy you just have to learn it," when it isn't doesn't help, they'll just ignore you. The author is trying to say that OSS people need to stop with this attitude that it is just as usable, or that usability doesn't matter to popularity. If you want OSS to start to become the dominant way of doing software, you have to make it as easy to use for the non-technical masses as possible.

    1. Re:No it isn't by wolf12886 · · Score: 1

      Dam, I wish I had mod points for this.

      I think you've hit the nail right on the head

    2. Re:No it isn't by gnud · · Score: 1

      I find this kind of thing fairly prevalent in the OSS world. You'll need to do something and someone will say "It's easy!" and then give a couple commands to run. To them, it does seem easy, because they've trained themselves on it, however that isn't. To a new user that's very hard and uninviting.

      Ignoring this issue doesn't help free software. Telling people "It is just as easy you just have to learn it," when it isn't doesn't help, they'll just ignore you.[snipppppppp]


      While there are certainly some areas that could use a good GUI, I'm not sure that I agree completely. There are several reasons:
      1) In the free software world, we have this thing known as choise -- so while the steps for using the gui might differ from setup to setup, the cli command will be the same.
      2) For eldritch settings orerror-fixing, a gui is just not optimal. Discoverability will be close to 0, and therefore, instead of an archaic command, the poor volounteer "support staffer" will have to create a screenshot walkthrough. In many cases, superflous settings will decrease the discoverability of the whole application.
      3) ok, those above were my main points :)

    3. Re:No it isn't by Tikkun · · Score: 1

      Easy vs. hard isn't == good vs. bad design.

      Last time I checked, professional truck drivers still had to drive stick shift (If I'm wrong I apologize). Sometimes you need a TV that just turns on, other times you need a machine that does exactly what you want it to (and be very specific when doing so). The latter will always have a bigger learning curve than the former, but it doesn't make it bad design.

    4. Re:No it isn't by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Sigh, I had written a nice reply to you and then Google's spellchecker totally mangled it. Well that POS is gone now. I don't want to rewrite the whole thing so I'll just summerize:

      1) There are automatics for trucks and such, they are semi-automatic transmissions. They are a clutch based transmission, but controlled by a computer. The human just pushes paddles to the like to signal shift.

      2) Efficency shouldn't be used as a justification for complexity when it isn't needed. Yes, CLIs are more efficient than GUIs. No, it doesn't matter as computer have more than enough power. If the power is there, easier to use is better.

    5. Re:No it isn't by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      For example most people find it much harder to memorize lines of commands than to look through a set of icons

      This is dead fucking wrong. Look at this picture. Tell me, which tabs made immediate sense to you? Hint: they weren't the ones with icons on them.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    6. Re:No it isn't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> For example most people find it much harder to memorize lines of commands than to look through a set of icons
      > This is dead fucking wrong. Look at this picture. Tell me, which tabs made immediate sense to you? Hint: they weren't the ones with icons on them.

      Strawman. Single words on tab controls are NOT the same as "lines of commands" that have to be memorized.

    7. Re:No it isn't by zatoichi0 · · Score: 1

      Ignoring this issue doesn't help free software. Telling people "It is just as easy you just have to learn it," when it isn't doesn't help, they'll just ignore you.

      Thats why developers should ignore the users that ignore them. Those users that spend 5 seconds whining that a piece of OSS software is unusable (read: expects them to learn something - after finishing high school a long time ago!), expecting the developers to spend additional days of their lives to meet those 5-second-vague-idea requirements - should be ignored. They should have their internet disconnected.

      The author is trying to say that OSS people need to stop with this attitude that it is just as usable, or that usability doesn't matter to popularity.

      Its not that usability doesn't matter - it just has a lower priority. First the software has to actually try to do something. Then it shouldn't have too many bugs. Once you get passed the second, you have really gone a long way... And for OSS the problem is what can the developer do to continue allocating most of his free time to writing/fixing OSS software? The usability critics are acting like stakeholders, but are contributing nothing.

      I believe the "usability doesn't matter" is just a polite way of saying "look, we need help to make the project better, not more opinions or ideas". If usability is _really_ a problem, then why are we having funding problems with OSS projects?

      If you want OSS to start to become the dominant way of doing software, you have to make it as easy to use for the non-technical masses as possible.

      Thats if we really need those non-technical masses. OSS will become the dominant way of doing software simply because its easier for the developers and cheaper for the corporations they work for.

      Do we really need those "non-technical" masses continue writing badly formatted word documents with no structure (being unrelated to information or knowledge), browsing web pages where no two pages are alike in usability, expecting OSS to be identical even in colors and in icons to Windows (otherwise its "unusable"), and as users potentially offering nothing more than "popularity" for OSS. And the only time they use the keyboard is typing something in the search field - using 2 fingers in total. And what is stopping the developers from replacing those users with simple shell scripts? Definitely not PROFIT.

      And then come usability experts, who ... amazingly ... try to make it easier for the users!

  26. usability != "make it pretty" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just because you've made it pretty doesn't mean it's usable. You can't build a bug-free product and then just slap on "usability" at the end--it doesn't work that way. You have to iterate through designs and test your product with users along the way while you're designing the entire system. Good software design is more than just making a UI that people like, but it's designing the entire product in a way that's intuitive for beginners and enabling for advanced users.

    1. Re:usability != "make it pretty" by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      or in other words: http://xkcd.com/456/

      Usability isn't just the GUI, its the whole package. I think Linux is getting there, but some better standardisation would make code samples, tutorials, and examples much more readily available, and contribute to a better "experience" for the end-user.

  27. Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But when someone points out a usability issue, this tradition turns into "patches welcome," which is unhelpful since most designers aren't programmers. And it's not obvious how else usability specialists should help out.'"

    There seems to be a whole movement who's against the "patches welcome" statement. I fail to understand this.

    I'm an open source developer. Look at it from my point of view. I've written software that people find useful. It's not perfect, but it's useful. Then, one day, someone criticizes my software:

    Person X: [...] this and this sucks [...]
    Me: patches are welcome
    Person X: what? what an unhelpful response! no wonder open source sucks, and you suck too!

    Now, tell me. I have a job. I maintain this software in my free time. Why should I devote that time to you, for free, instead of, say, hanging out with friends or seeing a movie? You're not paying me for this software. You probably would go away if I ask you to hire me. What exactly do I owe you? I already made the source code available. Why do you criticize me for not working for you for free? Why don't you do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you? If you can't do either of those, why don't you contribute documentation, mockups, or something else that's not technical but is still useful? Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

    1. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Perhaps instead of the "patches are welcome" you just say that you don't have time to work on it, don't want to work on it, or that it is very low on your priority list.

      Why do you expect people to help you with YOUR project when you won't even give them a useful response? You just told them that their concern was beneath you and that they should bugger off. You really think that's going to motivate someone to help you?

    2. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Spad · · Score: 1

      My programming skills are poor, I can write enough to get by in a few languages, mostly scripting, but that's about it.

      However, I use a great deal of FOSS apps day to day and will sometimes suggest improvements to the authors. I don't expect them to implement them, but it would be nice if they took them on board and *considered* them for their next release rather than dismissing them and suggesting that I do it myself.

      Just because I don't have the skills to make the changes myself doesn't mean that my suggestions to improve the program are any less valid. RDTabs is a good example of a program (Free but not Open) where the author takes account of suggestions from its users in order to improve it - I highly recommend it to anyone who administers Windows servers.

    3. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      1. Flour
      2. Water
      3. Heat

      Patches welcome.

    4. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by zalas · · Score: 1

      Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      No, but one would normally expect the baker to improve his recipes if the criticism was appropriate, and one certainly wouldn't expect the baker to reply with "well, give me a better recipe."

    5. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And which craftsman works for you for free? If a craftsman gives something to you for free, do you expect him to do more work for you for free?

      If you're paying me, I'll listen. If not, it's up to me to decide whether I want to care. I also gave you the choice to do it yourself, or finding someone else to do it for you. A choice that you didn't have in the first place.

    6. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some developers would consider implementing suggestions because it makes the software better. If your only response to any suggestion is "patches are welcome" then it makes it obvious that you care neither about the quality of the software or about its users, with the sole exception of yourself. That's understandable, if a bit anti-social, but it's part of what keeps so much open source software from being commercial quality. The prevalence of that attitude can be seen in the fact that most of the best non-trivial open source products and applications are those directly used by programmers and software engineers - they design for themselves, but can't be bothered to make something good to be used by other people. That's exactly what this article is about.

    7. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by furball · · Score: 1

      You didn't ask for pay. You said "patches welcome". I can't read your mind and divine that you needed or required pay.

    8. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Maybe he won't say exactly that. But if he gave some bread away for free, and you criticize his bread, and demand from him to make it better, do you not think that he'd be at least a little offended? If you were that baker, wouldn't you be offended if some random freeloader told you that your stuff is bad, and demands from you that you give him better bread?

    9. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I care. I usually respond to criticism by improving my software. But come on, don't you think it's getting ridiculous when people take this for granted and demand that you work for them for free?

      "That's understandable, if a bit anti-social, but it's part of what keeps so much open source software from being commercial quality."

      So it's anti-social not to work for complete strangers, for free? What is in it for me if the software is commercial quality? I'm not getting paid. How am I suppose to buy my next meal if all I'm doing is implementing requests from users, for free? Have I no say in these matters any more?

    10. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by chromatic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're just a programmer and not a craftsman.

      More charitably, perhaps the parent poster is not a bondslave to self-righteous and ungrateful whiners.

    11. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Phlegethon_River · · Score: 1

      I agree with you until your last 2 sentences.

      A) writing documentation will not fix the UI problem. And yes, UI problems should be seen as bugs not just suggestions. What should they do then to help?

      B) conflating a zero marginal cost item with a non-zero marginal cost item is just not a valid argument.

      You are expecting people to use your software for free no matter what. Even if they call you a . No where in most OSS licenses does it say your users have to be nice to use your software. But, being a jerk will probably not make your bug report looked at and fixed quicker (which is probably close to what you were saying).

    12. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Perhaps instead of the "patches are welcome" you just say that you don't have time to work on it, don't want to work on it, or that it is very low on your priority list."

      Maybe it's just me, but to me, "patches welcome" already means that. To me it means that I don't care enough personally, especially because I'm not getting paid, and that it's up to me when or whether I'll do something. You're of course completely free to contribute, either by doing it yourself or by hiring me or someone else. It's your problem after all.

      "Why do you expect people to help you with YOUR project when you won't even give them a useful response? You just told them that their concern was beneath you"

      What kind of response do you expect from someone who's working for free? If I responded with "Sure, hire me and I'll do everything I can to address these issues. My rate is $150 per hour." then how would you respond? (the $150 per hour is not an exaggeration)

      "and that they should bugger off."

      No, I told them that it's not my concern, and that they should do the work if it's their concern. I said patches welcome, so if they help then I'll care a bit more.

      "You really think that's going to motivate someone to help you?"

      Do you really think it's going to motivate me to care more if all you're doing is criticizing? After hearing the first 10 complaints, things become tedious quickly. Especially if people *still* criticize me even after having put so much time and effort into helping them, for free.

      Hey, but maybe it's just me. I suppose you don't think "screw them" if everybody's constantly criticizing you, even after having spent a lot of effort into addressing those criticisms... or do you?.

    13. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly what I'm already doing. I know that not everybody is or can be a programmer. I take criticisms seriously and improve my software with the best of my ability.

      However, despite doing all this, people are constantly criticizing "Free Software" or "Open Source", as a whole, while at the same time I've already spent much effort in helping users for free. Apparently people are taking my work for granted and expecting me to do *more* work for free. Don't you think that's getting ridiculous?

    14. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Person X: [...] this and this sucks [...]
      Me: patches are welcome
      Person X: what? what an unhelpful response! no wonder open source sucks, and you suck too!

      Now, tell me. I have a job. I maintain this software in my free time. Why should I devote that time to you, for free, instead of, say, hanging out with friends or seeing a movie?

      ...cuz your sentence before your question tells us you maintain it in your spare time. You are the one making the distinction between simply maintaining it and maintaining it in response to criticism, (however unspecific or profanity laden).

      Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      The baker started off by giving away the bread for free! J. H. C. on a pogo stick.

      -=- Anonymous Troll

    15. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "A) writing documentation will not fix the UI problem. And yes, UI problems should be seen as bugs not just suggestions. What should they do then to help?"

      I know. That's why I also said "mockups".

      "You are expecting people to use your software for free no matter what."

      I'm not expecting anybody to use it. It's a gift to the world in the hope that it'll be useful. And certainly, I do address criticisms, but don't *expect* me to do it or *demand* from me to do it. If after having processed 10 criticisms, people are still criticizing you, often for invalid reasons or for things that you've already addressed, things get tedious soon.

      And that's exactly that's happening in the open source world. Everybody takes open source for granted. People are constantly criticizing and complaining, and almost nobody's giving the developers any praise. And somehow you think that it's strange that a lot of developers become jerks?

      "No where in most OSS licenses does it say your users have to be nice to use your software. But, being a jerk will probably not make your bug report looked at and fixed quicker (which is probably close to what you were saying)."

      The converse is also true. If the users are jerks, demanding from the developer to do things for free (which I've already done for a large part), why shouldn't the developer be a jerk? Nowhere in the license does it say that the developer is obligated to help. The license does say that users can help themselves.

    16. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Quasar+Sera · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Much of that, I think, comes down to poor communication skills. Saying 'this and this sucks' is almost never useful, and from your perspective must be very annoying; you are, as you say, essentially a volunteer! Criticism should be polite and constructive. Users who find that something irritates them should, at the very least, suggest an alternative (e.g. 'I would find this application even more useful if I could configure which icons appear in the toolbar').

    17. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Most people that I help are the polite ones who offer helpful feedback. But it seems that people on Slashdot/Reddit/OSNews think that they can flame OSS developers and somehow expect that after all this flaming, the developers should still be motivated to help them.

    18. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by furball · · Score: 1

      If I was that baker, I wouldn't be offended. Why would I be? Feedback means my pay products can be improved.

      The only reason to be offended is if I wasn't open to feedback and already believed that my product are so awesome and the heathens who didn't understand why my product is awesome are bothering me.

    19. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Quasar+Sera · · Score: 1

      And conversely, when users of an application make polite and constructive remarks to a developer, the developer will ideally understand that, aside from concerns over his or her workload and responsibilities, criticism does not necessarily mean that anybody is implying that the application (or that the developer) sucks.

    20. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "If I was that baker, I wouldn't be offended. Why would I be? Feedback means my pay products can be improved."

      Great. Please do try it out at your local bakery. Don't buy anything from him and tell him that his bread sucks. Do this repeatedly. Then perhaps you'll find out that many people out there can get offended.

      And this is exactly what's happening with OSS software. People are constantly criticizing. Few people are giving words of praise or even helpful feedback. Being polite and helpful seem to be a foreign concept to most Slashdotters/OSNewsers/Redditers. And then they're still wondering why the developers don't want to listen.

    21. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Splab · · Score: 1

      The patches are welcome statement pisses people off, its arrogant and the wrong response.

      Just tell them nice and easy that you are more then willing to fix it for the right amount of money. Even if they start the talk by being dicks and saying "this sucks" you should be nice to them, you are after all representing the community.

    22. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by AlXtreme · · Score: 1

      Totally with you on this. It's anti-social for people to expect you to do their bidding for free.

      I guess it all boils down to the itch-factor. If the criticism is something you agree to and it's about a problem you yourself run into, there is a chance you might get around to fixing it (ie. all the way at the bottom of the wish-list). If not, feel free to send the patch.

      Like TFA states, this is not an issue with Free Software, it's simply a lack of resources/man-power. Large FLOSS projects (Firefox, OOo, GNOME/KDE) tend to have companies behind them and (thus) better usability due to people actually being paid to improve the UI. But for every big project there are hundreds of projects that have been developed in someones spare time. In those cases, a send-the-patch mentality is totally acceptable, IMHO.

      Hell, those poor users might actually learn to appreciate the work that has gone into a project. Thankfully the rude ones are a very small minority, but they sure know how to sour someones mood.

      --
      This sig is intentionally left blank
    23. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that there are a lot of people who have that sense of entitlement - you owe them to implement what they're asking for, even though they're doing nothing for you. They are assholes, and being that it's not a commercial application, you can much more easily choose to ignore them or yell at them or deal with them pretty much however you want.

      That written, I'm not suggesting you work for them or even the nicer people for free but I suggest you treat outside suggestions like you would a bug report or feature request at work, roughly:

      1. Examine the validity of the suggestion. If it's simply not right for what you want - ever - then thank for their suggestion but say it's not right for the version you want, but they are free to make a branch.
      2. Determine the importance of the suggestion relative to other bugs and suggestions, as well as the time requirement.
      3. Place it on the timeline.
      4. Tell the person who suggested it that you've considered and accepted their suggestion, however there are so many other tasks to do that it'll be around x amount of time before you can get to it. If they can code, have friends who'd be interested in the feature and who can code, or they can hire someone to write code (you can suggest yourself, though it takes some prowess to word it so it doesn't sound like extortion), then they could get it done more quickly and you'll accept the resulting patch.

      A main problem is that "patches are welcome" as a response isn't a very friendly or very encouraging to people, especially to people new to the area - e.g., a pro designer dipping their toe in to trying to help an open source project. It's better to actively explain the situation and give them a nudge as to how to help get things moving along. I may be taking your wording too literally, of course.

    24. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by westlake · · Score: 1
      So it's anti-social not to work for complete strangers, for free?
      .

      The user will make a choice between your program and the commercial alternative. The chances are quite good that he will choose the commercial OS along with it.
      No one has the right to ask you to work for free. But everyone has the right to turn their back on your project and your open source ideals. That is also part of the bargain.

    25. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by k8to · · Score: 1

      So your major stance here is "I've had some lousy users, therefore I have lost interest in seriously investing in my software."

      Well, I can understand that. It doesn't surprise me. But it isn't a terribly useful position for discussing how to better improve usability. You already think submitters of usability issues are stupid morons and don't want to help them or deal with them. Maybe they deserve it. But with this attitude you are actively shutting out potential contributors. There's no need to debate it even; you're wearing it on your sleeve.

      In short, I think your situation is not salvagable. Where are the developers who are not yet convinced their users are jerks?

      --
      -josh
    26. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      Only after he makes it tastier.

    27. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by R15I23D05D14Y · · Score: 1

      Trying to submit an essentially trivial usability patch to a big project, eg, KDE (which I tried the other day), often conflicts with some policy, and changing that just takes too long. 'Patches Welcome' isn't just a case of identifying code changes, it involves convincing the usual maintainer that something is wrong with the usability. These sort of persuasive skills aren't common enough, so 'patches welcome', in the worst case, is just a method of shrugging off change by not accepting a patch on policy reasons.

    28. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      It's because "patches are welcome" is developer-speak for "fuck off". Surely you recognize this. If you're not an experienced developer yourself, it is utterly impossible to contribute a patch. Developers know this and use the phrase frequently to get out of needing to change their software.

      Why do you criticize me for not working for you for free?

      You're being criticized because there's some problem with your software. Instead of fixing it, you come out with "fuck off". In the real world, we call this "feeling no obligation to your customers". Why do you feel no obligation? Because it's free software. Obviously you feel very strongly that the lack of money is what is keeping you from fixing your problems, and being free software, there won't ever be any money in it. This is a huge problem with free software, and one that's not likely to go anywhere soon.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    29. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by chromatic · · Score: 1

      The patches are welcome statement pisses people off, its arrogant and the wrong response.

      Exactly how is it arrogant or wrong?

      The price of community-produced software is participating in the community. If anything, non-commercial software doesn't make that cost visible enough. "Patches welcome" means "We're all in this together. If you have a need or a desire, jump in!" That's how things get done.

    30. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 0, Troll

      So basically you admit that proprietary software has a business model more responsive to users' needs than open-source?

      Not trolling, just trying to note the similarities between being paid to write a software project... and selling a software project to pay developers.

    31. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      The problem with your response is that it assumes that the baker in question has "pay products" -- that at some point the baker sells bread to costumers for money. F/OSS software is given away 100% for free, maybe with a metaphorical donation/tip jar left in the user's view. Why should someone who works in an essentially communist economy improve their products?

    32. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by TheIndifferentiate · · Score: 1

      I work on a commercial application and getting paid for doing it does not make criticism any easier to take. Probably it makes it worse because it still sucks, _and_ I have an obligation to give it consideration because this customer has paid their money for something. And, there's no winning either, you can have the crappiest of applications and someone will make a suggestion for something simple like, "This button would make more sense if it were located here." So, you move the button. Well, there's going to be someone out there who's good opinion of your software for some reason was based entirely on where that button was originally located who is now going to complain that it has been moved on them.

      Anyways, I wouldn't be swayed by any of the arguments I've seen here. Oh, you're not a craftsman. Oh, you're not a good programmer. Oh, you're not a nice guy. FLOSS is going to die. Total BS. You're not obligated, and you've already given them something for free, and they're being ungrateful and just trying to pursuade you to do more for them for free. I say stick to your guns and do only the work that you enjoy and feel like doing as you have the time to do it. If people can't appreciate the fruits of your labor such as it is, that's their problem.

    33. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by sehryan · · Score: 1

      You missed part of the point of the article. Most of the time, folks who know how to design a good frontend have no idea how to program it. Saying "patches welcome" to a usability guru is like saying "Usability sucks, and you suck too!" to that person.

      I am all for blowing off the dickheads who give you unconstructive criticism, but when someone offers legitimate suggestions, and it is obvious they have no idea on how to implement, you should listen instead of being a dickhead yourself.

      --
      The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
    34. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I'm not expecting anybody to use it. It's a gift to the world in the hope that it'll be useful. And certainly, I do address criticisms, but don't *expect* me to do it or *demand* from me to do it. If after having processed 10 criticisms, people are still criticizing you, often for invalid reasons or for things that you've already addressed, things get tedious soon.

      If you don't give a shit if people use it, why don't you put the code up with no contact email or bugtracker? Then you don't have to listen to users at all, which is great because you don't care about them.

      If you do give a shit if people use it, why wouldn't you work on the issues preventing people from using it? Then you'll have more users, which is great because you care about that.

      I don't get how you're expecting to coast in-between those two extremes. It seems to me you either care or you don't, and in either case, solving your problem would be trivial.

      And that's exactly that's happening in the open source world. Everybody takes open source for granted. People are constantly criticizing and complaining, and almost nobody's giving the developers any praise. And somehow you think that it's strange that a lot of developers become jerks?

      I'm guessing you were 80% of the way to being a jerk before you even wrote the first line of code, judging from your Slashdot posts.

      The converse is also true. If the users are jerks, demanding from the developer to do things for free (which I've already done for a large part), why shouldn't the developer be a jerk? Nowhere in the license does it say that the developer is obligated to help. The license does say that users can help themselves.

      Nobody should be a jerk, period. But you're not using good faith, here. If a new user comes to you with a suggestion "you should fix the capitalization on your menu titles", and you reply with "patches welcome," you might as well just be saying "fuck off." It's like when Verizon or Comcast says "your call is important to us," everybody knows it's bullshit.

      And the new user has no way of knowing that 20 users before him had the same suggestion, just none of them happened to write the patch. Of course, since probably less than 0.1% of the population even has the competency to write a patch at all, you'd expect that result, right? Or are you just being purposefully dense and pretending that every single human does nothing but write code all day?

      Why not pass your application over to somebody nice, and see how things work out?

    35. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone takes the time to offer their help, for free, even if they put it poorly, and you not only discard their help but you push their nose in your refusal.

      You tell them "patches welcome" which is insulting and disingenuous.

      It is insulting because, chances are, most users aren't programmers, but acting as if they were you are in effect saying "I'm better than you because I wrote this". And "If you can't write a patch you aren't worthy."

      And if they ARE a programmer it pretty much means wading into something that they aren't familiar with (even if your code is elegant and well-commented (by no means a certainty)). So you are saying "If you are even capable of handling the programming, I insist you spend enormous amounts of time and effort to get to the point where you could write a patch."

      You are pushing them off rather than saying "You may have a point." or "I hear what you are saying, but I don't have the time to make a change.". Basically you are saying "Your arguments are shit." or at best "You have failed to convince me.".

      It is disingenuous because the chances that you'd accept a patch are likely fairly small, especially if they didn't take the enormous amount of time & effort to understand what is being done well enough to write a competent patch.

      In other words, what is the point for you to release your software as open source? You obviously don't really care about anyone other than yourself using it. I realize it probably gives you pleasure to act superior to others, but if you get a BMW you can act superior to far more people in 10 minutes than you are likely to in a year programming :-)

      The rest of your arguments don't align with your retort to the user, and your analogy is flawed. I've never met a baker who didn't care about what s/he did. And I can't imagine a baker saying "Wash your hands and grab the flour.", can you?

      Of course if I got your true motivation wrong, I apologize. I'm just telling you what it looks like to just about anyone who didn't immediately shout "BROTHER!" and mod you up.

      Now I've submitted bug reports on UI issues to programmers and have received respectful replies, sometimes requests to explain it better or ask how it could be done differently. I've been told that it has to wait for a later revision due to [ scheduling | nasty bugs that were more important | etc ]. I've been told that they disagree and often they've explained their point of view (hey, mostly they were right). And typically I've seen the changes made at some point.

    36. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Than don't whine about people who use Microsoft products.

      The choice has been made.

    37. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Then I guess you aren't really that devoted to your particular OSS project. But others are more devoted, but still expect non-coders to contribute code -- that's the problem. No one is asking you to devote all your time to a certain project -- that is something else altogether.

    38. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

      Now, tell me. I have a job. I maintain this software in my free time. Why should I devote that time to you, for free, instead of, say, hanging out with friends or seeing a movie? You're not paying me for this software. You probably would go away if I ask you to hire me. What exactly do I owe you? I already made the source code available. Why do you criticize me for not working for you for free? Why don't you do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you? If you can't do either of those, why don't you contribute documentation, mockups, or something else that's not technical but is still useful? Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      Do you want me to use your project?

      I also have a job. I contribute to a short list of open source projects in my free time, and a few non-open source personal projects as well. My time is just as valuable to me as yours is to you. So the time it would take me to learn your codebase, etc just to add the fix is generally nor worth my time the amount it would cost for me to buy a professional product that does the same thing.

      So convince me to write a patch. You are the maintainer, do you want your software to be used? Do you want it to improve? What if I'm not a programmer or totally unfamiliar with the internals of your app? For anything past "trivial" why should I embed myself in your project if I have any other option out there? The statement "patches welcome" presupposes that your time is _more_ valuable than mine, as a user of your product.

      Which leads us to the actual problem with the statement "patches welcome." There are a variety of better approaches than "patches welcome" from a customer relationship standpoint, and if you have users then you functionally have customers. File it as a bug or an enhancement request, mention that its a low priority for you right now, or that you would "certainly consider a patch" for it but "don't have time right now." This recasts the problem and the potential range of solutions, and it recognizes the value of your time while not demeaning the value of theirs.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    39. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am person 'X'. I use open source software as much as possible but I don't know any programming language. It definitely does not help if I give feedback and the developer says "Patches welcome".

    40. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Leading+Stoker · · Score: 1

      I care. I usually respond to criticism by improving my software. But come on, don't you think it's getting ridiculous when people take this for granted and demand that you work for them for free?

      As a graphics designer, and an illustrator for 30 years, I'm so used to critiques that even if I did work for free, it's even expected (part and parcel of the trade). Most of the time I find, especially online, when folks do criticize it's because they can't really explain what they want to convey. Overall, most who do complain do want whatever you're doing to improve, though (and sometimes you get a critique that really does help with more than suggesting XYZ -- and that's worth going through a dogpile).

      It balances itself in the end.

    41. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, tell me. I have a job. I maintain this software in my free time. Why should I devote that time to you, for free, instead of, say, hanging out with friends or seeing a movie? You're not paying me for this software. You probably would go away if I ask you to hire me. What exactly do I owe you? I already made the source code available. Why do you criticize me for not working for you for free? Why don't you do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you? If you can't do either of those, why don't you contribute documentation, mockups, or something else that's not technical but is still useful? Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      And here we see part of why this is such a difficult problem to solve...because you aren't being in any way unreasonable.

      You're not being paid, and as such I shouldn't expect you to care if you try to give you some UI pointers (or any others, really). At the same time, this is the reason why so many free applications (other than a select few "AAA" apps) remain so horrible on the UI front (or often the bug front)...because once somebody gets it to the "pretty much works" point, there's little incentive to get it to the "works incredibly well and is easy to use" point. That's usually where money comes in. In general you can only expect so much out of a project that nobody is being paid for, and that you aren't being asked to pay for.

    42. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      I know what your saying but even if the complainant is a coder submitting a patch still has a high barrier of entry for all but the most trivial of programs. For example lets say I discovered a flaw with how firefox implemented some obscure css property under certain conditions. How long do you think it would take me to become familiar enough with the codebase to fix it. What about if its a project where the source code isnt documented.

      Alot of FOSS software doesnt have any design docs, the architecture lives in the developers head. At least when your working on a commercial project you'll have access to internal technical documentation.

      So basically what Im saying is that from a cold start submitting a patch is pretty work intensive and unrealistic. Does that mean you should provide free support? Of course not but you could be more helpful by suggesting where in the codebase is a good place to start looking or giving a 10,000 feet over view of how that area of the code hangs together.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    43. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should try to get other developers on your project if you don't have enough time. If a user requests some feature you don't ask her to write a patch or find a coder who can. Don't respond with 'patches are welcome'. Don't get pissed off by complaints and flames.

      F/OSS developers should focus on getting maximum market share away from their 'competitors.' Everyone gets ridiculous feature requests/inane complaints/flames, but you do what is best for your 'audience' (most users will give no response but will appreciate your work by simply using it.) If you/your team has done a good job and a good market share then you get the bragging rights.

    44. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "You already think submitters of usability issues are stupid morons and don't want to help them or deal with them."

      No I don't. I like people who can give constructive feedback about usability issues. In fact, whenever those people give feedback, I do my best to fix things:

      Person Y: hey
      Me: hi
      Person Y: this stuff is good, I've been using it for a few weeks now and I'm totally loving it :) but don't you think this and that would be better if this and that is moved there or looks like this?
      Me: I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain it a bit more? ...conversation...
      Person Y: okay, I've just made a mockup. *sends file*
      Me: yeah that does look better. let me see what I can do ...a few hours later...
      Me: okay, it's done. can you verify?
      Person Y: yep, all better now. thanks :)

      What I don't like, however, is people like this:

      Person X: your product X sucks, it's totally unusable like any other FOSS out there and a monkey can design a better UI than you do!
      Me: (holding back anger) okay, could you explain what it is that you don't like?
      Person X: WTF? you're not a craftsman, you're just a programmer/coding monkey. no wonder FOSS sucks
      Person X: *logs off*

      What I am supposed to do with these kind of people? Unfortunately it seems that a lot of FOSS critiques are exactly like this.

    45. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      And how's any of that supposed to convince anybody to do work for you for free? You accuse developers of being jerks, yet you're the one who started being a jerk. And then you expect them not behaving like jerks in front of you?

    46. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      No it isn't. Notice the word "welcome". It means I don't have time and/or don't care enough, but you're welcome to do the relevant work.

      Look at your response. You're taking offense in what's otherwise a normal, neutral response. You're behaving like a jerk and you expect the developer not to behave like a jerk in front of you?

    47. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "So basically you admit that proprietary software has a business model more responsive to users' needs than open-source?"

      1. You've obviously never heard of commercial open source software.
      2. So if I close the source of my program, but still provide it for free (i.e. closed source freeware) then all of a sudden it has magically become better?

    48. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "Do you want me to use your project?"

      Most hobby projects are released under the hope that it'll be useful. Nobody's *expecting* or *forcing* anybody to use it. Please, don't confuse zealots with developers.

    49. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

      Zealots? What exactly do you think I'm talking about?

      I'm talking about the difference between "professionals" or "professional amateurs" and "hobbyists." This is about professionalism, not zealotry or developers.

      This is the difference between people who care about quality, usability, and other such metrics and those who just want to hack something together for their own use and put it up in the internet under the GPL.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    50. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      you're welcome to do the relevant work.

      If you're not an experienced developer yourself, it is utterly impossible to contribute a patch. Developers know this and use the phrase frequently to get out of needing to change their software.

      Feeling justified in being a jerk to your customers is never a good thing.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    51. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "If you're not an experienced developer yourself, it is utterly impossible to contribute a patch."

      But it's not impossible to hire an experienced developer to do the work for you. Why don't you do that instead?

    52. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      If I had money to burn, I wouldn't be using free software in the first place. Seriously, this whole thing boils down to money, which is the total opposite of the lack of scarcity that free software represents. The developer says, "fuck off" and the customer gets screwed. Only, the developer feels zero responsibility to his customer because he's not getting paid. Is getting paid what free software is about?

      It's not so much a honest acknowledgement of the economic realities of the situation is it is the sneering attitude. Telling someone "patches welcome" is like telling a bum to get a job. You both know it isn't going to happen but you get a thrill out of it anyway.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    53. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      My main question is, if you hate it as much as these comments to Slashdot suggest, why are you even doing it? I mean, seriously, you've written a dozen tirades against your jerk users and absolutely nothing that reveals why you even participate in the first place.

      You hate working for free, you hate having users who make suggestions, why bother with open source in the first place?

    54. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      1. You've obviously never heard of commercial open source software.

      I have. I've just never understood why you would pay the author's asking price for them to improve the software when you could take the source for free and improve it yourself, or hire a few cheap coders to improve it for you. I guess whether that really gets you any money depends on the amount of domain knowledge inherent in the project itself?

      2. So if I close the source of my program, but still provide it for free (i.e. closed source freeware) then all of a sudden it has magically become better?

      Hell no. I didn't say the proprietary model produced better software, I said it responded better to users' needs due to market mechanisms.

      For example, Windoze has a stable driver ABI and API. Users, developers, and hardware makers (all, in their ways, Microsoft's customers) demanded one, so Microsoft put one in.

      Linux, on the other hand, has consistently lacked one against the wishes of users because the development team doesn't want to constrain themselves to a fixed API or ABI, and because they feel that having to recompile drivers for each new kernel encourages releasing drivers as open-source anyway.

      And yet Linux is obviously the better piece of software. But just because the Linux kernel developers find their own wants for the kernel aligned with most of the wants of the user-base doesn't mean they respond to users' wants as well as someone paid to do so.

      The magic comes not from closed source, but from someone having to pay the developer to improve the software, giving the developer an incentive to respond to what users want instead of what the developer thinks users need.

    55. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      I don't hate users who make suggestions. I hate people who criticize me while not providing any suggestions, and generally act like jerks. The kind of people that seem to be overwhelming the open source world as of late.

    56. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by pbhj · · Score: 1

      "Patches welcome" is seen by non-programmers as meaning "FOAD I couldn't care less".

      It's like if a friend painted your portrait for you and you (assuming you're not an artist) thought your nose looked a bit big and your eyebrows too bushy, you point it out - instead of saying "I don't have time right now, I'll make a note and do it if I can" he says "repaint it yourself".

      Now you could hire someone to do those changes, or take painting classes. But if he just says "repaint it yourself" you'd probably feel a bit disgruntled.

      I think the correct response is probably "If you can code we [@ Example Project] always like to get patches, if not then please file a feature request [link to the bug system, eg launchpad, or the format for email requests] or bug report so that if a coder finds time they can implement your idea. Sadly we're quite stretched, we do this for free (tips are welcome too!) and so not all requests can be handled." [editorial comments].

      That's called marketing - the user doesn't have a false expectation. You've given them something to do, which weeds out off-the-cuff requests that don't really matter. You've let them know you're working for free and given them an opportunity to donate.

      I can't code well enough to make alterations to completely uncommented code! I tried to make a fix for klinkstatus the other day - I can find the part that needs fixing but don't know enough to make the alterations. I do however try my best to file full feature requests, file bug reports, do "answers" (see launchpad), try betas and test new features. I can write websites, design graphics, write docs ... others can do all these things to help a project; they just can't code.

      Person X: [...] this and this sucks [...]
      Me: patches are welcome
      Person X: what? what an unhelpful response! no wonder open source sucks, and you suck too!

      Me: OSS is about a community effort, I'm giving my time for free but I haven't time to fix those things. If OSS sucks it's because not everyone is doing their bit.

      Personally I think OSS is awesome.

    57. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's up to me to decide whether I want to care

      A craftsman cares about their work. You don't have to make changes, but if you're a craftsman you'd care.

      Do you expect a baker to give bread to you for free when you criticize his breads for not being tasty enough?

      If a baker gives me some bread, I'd expect him to care if I said "it tastes too salty to me". He may not find it too salty. But he cares about what he makes. It's not a personal attack, I just want to let the baker know so that if he wants to improve his bread he can make an informed decision about whether to make it {more,less} salty.

    58. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      So why do it?

      If, as you say, the number of jerks is "overwhelming," then why subject yourself to it?

    59. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm already an open-source developer. You should be on your knees kissing my feet". Whatever, dude!

      Your audience is telling you your work isn't good enough, simple as that; the fact that it's free doesn't make it automatically good, sucky free software is still sucky! Put up or shut up: either listen to your audience and address their issues, or acknowledge you're not good enough to be an open source developer, but STOP BLAMING YOUR USERS!

      I'd be rather suspicious of the usability of your software in general, I very much doubt you "do it right" just because they're paying you, one's shortcomings tend to show in most aspects of one's behavior (me? I for instance have very little patience with cry babies ... My bad, I know!)

    60. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What response would you prefer?

      (Please note that "I'll fix that right away" is not always an option)

    61. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you were 80% of the way to being a jerk before you even wrote the first line of code, judging from your Slashdot posts.

      . . .

      Why not pass your application over to somebody nice, and see how things work out?

      OUCH!

      I 3 U, Blakey Rat!

    62. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Especially if people *still* criticize me even after having put so much time and effort into helping them, for free.

      Maybe you should do something else with your time, then?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    63. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      Why must I be the one to move aside? Is it so unreasonable to want just a little bit of respect for helping others? Why should the very people who are being helped be the ones to realize that they should show at least some respect instead of flaming away blindly?

    64. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Why must I be the one to move aside? Is it so unreasonable to want just a little bit of respect for helping others?

      1. I never said you "must" do anything.
      2. Who said you were helping anybody else but yourself?

      You appear to demand respect. I don't see any reason why this is automatically due, just because you wrote some software.

      Why should the very people who are being helped be the ones to realize that they should show at least some respect instead of flaming away blindly?

      What makes you think that the people who are "flaming" are the same ones who are being helped? Did you ever stop to think that maybe you are the one being helped by the criticism? Not being criticised by anybody is a sure sign that nobody cares about what you are doing. Criticism is actually a sign that somebody cares.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    65. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "Who said you were helping anybody else but yourself?"

      I do help others. However, that doesn't mean others have the right to demand me to help them if there's nothing to give back in return. Doing so is, at best, rude.
      If I help them then it's because I did it out of free will, because I want to, not because they have the inherent right to be helped.

      "You appear to demand respect."

      If they don't use my software then I expect no respect from them. If they do use my software, and I helped them, for free, then why is it so unreasonable to expect a tiny bit of respect?

      "Did you ever stop to think that maybe you are the one being helped by the criticism? Not being criticised by anybody is a sure sign that nobody cares about what you are doing. Criticism is actually a sign that somebody cares."

      Yes. However, there's a clear difference between helpful and constructive criticism and destructive flaming. The latter doesn't help, it only serves to discourage a person. It is exactly this kind of mentality that I'm battling: too many people on Slashdot think that all their complaints help, but it reality they don't:

      Imagine that you're a developer and you've just read the 8579832589th rant on why your software sucks, but none of those rants say *why* it sucks, just that it must suck because you're an open source developer, then what are you going to do?
      - You still have no clue why your software is considered to be bad, and when you ask the people who wrote those "criticisms" they either ignore you or send you more hate mail.
      - You've received no information on how to improve your software, but you've read plenty of paragraphs of text that try to convince the world why you're a spawn of satan and why you should be shot for creating such a horrible user interface (again, with no specifics as to why it's horrible).
      - You try hard to please the crowd, even though you receive no monetary compensation. But no matter what you do, no matter what you try, it's never good enough: people will keep complaining and complaining. You've read the Apple User Interface Guidelines, you've read the GNOME Human User Interface Guidelines, you've designed your user interface according to the suggestions in those guidelines. And people say that you're an fscking moron for having designed your user interface the way it is, even though it's following the guidelines.
      - And somehow, when you one day get fed up of all those anonymous, faceless people who "criticize" you, it's all your fault for being "elitist" or "a jerk" (as they call you).

      If you're that developer, then is that all your fault? Or maybe should the people open their eyes and see that they should provide more helpful criticisms, instead of criticisms that are full of rants, hates, anecdotal evidence and no specifics? Maybe they should stop demanding and start respectfully asking?

    66. Re:Why is "patches welcome" a bad thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right but there's a different problem. You see, when you say "patches welcome" to somebody who doesn't know what a patch is you can cause a problem.

  28. Could be fixed by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People just need to become willing to pay for free software. The problem is right now, most people, even the OSS heads on Slashdot, aren't as interested in free as in speech but more interested in free as in can I crash on your couch. There is this real resistance to paying for open source code. I don't mean things like enterprise support contracts, I mean paying for a copy of software as is done in the commercial software world. Even when it has been tried, it doesn't go well. Look at Sveasoft, for example. They wanted to modify the Linux based Linksys routers, and sell their modified software. However they didn't sell much, because people bought it, recompiled it, and then distributed it for free. This is all perfectly legal per the GPL, of course, but you can see how an attitude like that makes it very hard to sell free software.

    Well, if that attitude changed, I think perhaps more groups would be willing to work on it. You could hire designers, artists, etc to work on a project because it is something you could use to generate money. You'd still include the code so people could modify it to their heart's content, however you'd understand that most people were going to pay you if they used it.

    Unfortunately, I see a lot of resistance to that. It seems that most OSS people think software shouldn't cost anything every. Well, with an attitude like that, it is going to be more of a hobbyist pursuit.

    1. Re:Could be fixed by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      Waiting for the flames but... this has been done, it's called OS X, based on Darwin / BSD. Looks fantastic, costs a fair bit, worth every penny.

    2. Re:Could be fixed by linhares · · Score: 1

      They can't protect the code, but they can protect TRADEMARKS. Let's a company like NVIDIA or SONY brought their own desktop version of Linux, called something like "Protocol NVidia" or whatever. Anyone would be able to recompile and give it away, but they could not redistribute it with the trademark. So I think that there is, today, an open space for some hardware providers to come up with a cool distro under their trademark, and be able to make a buck with it. (Of course, nothing will ever be as huge as MS, but that's history in any case; licenses to print money are becoming more exclusive to governments nowadays).

    3. Re:Could be fixed by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      They wanted to modify the Linux based Linksys routers, and sell their modified software. However they didn't sell much, because people bought it, recompiled it, and then distributed it for free. This is all perfectly legal per the GPL, of course

      Sorry, but taking someone else's open source firmware, adding per-unit product activation to it then selling the end result after attempting to strip the copyright notices and credits from it is not legal per the GPL, no matter how much of a Sveasoft apologist you are.

    4. Re:Could be fixed by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      The fix to this is to discover some low cost usability techniques. Open Source is entirely open, and sacrificing that profit motive introduces all kinds of innovations elsewhere. Bittorrent, git and ohloh and Coverity as applied to OSS are all based on the free access modification and distribution of source code.

      As for Sveasoft, perhaps their business model was destined to fail (or perhaps not succeed wildly). Taking GPL'd code and charging per unit is bound to fail, because it translates what should be a fixed cost into a marginal cost. Sveasoft should be offering companies like Linksys consulting advice, but I don't see why Linksys needs it. They're happy with the uniform interface, and know how to put together the firmware in the first place. If Sveasoft was anything more than a guy living on a remote Sweedish island, working alone to resell other people's work, he'd probably have a successful OSS software consulting business by now.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    5. Re:Could be fixed by TedRiot · · Score: 1

      Many OSS software would benefit a lot on simple heuristic evaluation, which can be very low cost. Don't even need to read hundreds of pages of UI guidelines. Just a few people walking through common tasks and evaluating the UI based on Nielsen's heuristics. And I know there are other heuristics, but I think the Nielsen's heuristics are a good starting point. This won't make things perfect, but can point out fundamental problems.

      Of course the problem still is that when the code is done and it works for the coder who pretty much knows what (s)he was thinking when writing it, finding a motivation to do this might be difficult.

    6. Re:Could be fixed by diagonal_mambo · · Score: 1

      I agree that paying for software could help free software's usability, but I don't think it's worth the cost. People in the free software community are encouraged to share openly, to hand out CDs to their family and friends. Sure, it sounds corny, but sometimes it works. This would be impossible if everyone had to pay for the software. Then there's the question of replacing a lost disc: easier to just say this person has paid for the right to use that software, right? That's where the basic premise of free software (as in speech) goes out the window. You can't have free (as in speech) software that is not free (as in beer). Most people in the free software community, including end users, would tell you they'd rather wait for good interfaces than take that step. Many would also say it's perfectly usable right now.

  29. Throttle and brake vs. OK and Cancel by tepples · · Score: 1

    There are thousands of cars the world can pick from and I don't see the average person having a nervous breakdown over the decision which to buy.

    Cars have throttle on the right and brake on the left. Period. GNOME and KDE, on the other hand, can't agree where to put OK and Cancel.

    1. Re:Throttle and brake vs. OK and Cancel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are thousands of cars the world can pick from and I don't see the average person having a nervous breakdown over the decision which to buy.

      Cars have throttle on the right and brake on the left. Period. GNOME and KDE, on the other hand, can't agree where to put OK and Cancel.

      It's even worse than that. MS and Apple also place their dialog buttons in different places and even have different names for them. http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/dialogs.php

      So, OS X, XP, Gnome, and KDE all have different placements for their several dialog buttons.

      Still, none of these are as critical as the placement of gas/brake. They're probably more on the level of placement of ignition switch (location varies), headlight controls (location varies), emergency brake (location varies), etc.

      Annoying? Yes. Can they cause problems? Yes.

    2. Re:Throttle and brake vs. OK and Cancel by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Cars have throttle on the right and brake on the left. Period.

      Except for all the cars where the pedal on the left is the clutch, and the brake is in the middle, of course. And the cars where there are two brake pedals. And the cars that have been modified for the benefit of people with disabilities and have the throttle to the left of the brake.

      And your analogy only holds for pedals. Other controls differ far more. Which stalk controls the indicators? How are the wipers and headlights operated? How are the gears controlled? What about the horn? There are dozens of ways in which the interfaces of two cars will differ, and the differences are often more significant than the differences between GNOME and KDE. But people don't seem to care.

    3. Re:Throttle and brake vs. OK and Cancel by tepples · · Score: 1

      Except for all the cars where the pedal on the left is the clutch, and the brake is in the middle, of course.

      But between the two, they are the rightmost pedals of the set. The car analogy here would be the "Don't Save" button. "Cancel" and "Save" are still in a consistent place in, say, Mac OS X.

  30. Re: Usability of Free Software by Warll · · Score: 1

    Then someone else comes along, picks up the source and adds what they want. Rinse and repeat.

  31. Who decides how the code works? by John+Allsup · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll point out an example from the world of software synthesisers. Take a look at Rob Papen's Blue, Albino or Predator. They are excellent synthesisers. The point is, Papen is the sound designer and the synthesisers are designed so as to facilitate his designing of the vast collection of factory patches for them (based on what's possible of course.)

    In the world of Free Software, things are very different -- those who can design the user interface are not strongly listened to when designing how the user interface libraries should work. Basically, a programmer writes what he/she thinks is good enough, other programmers join in, but when the designer's requirements run contrary to the original direction of the code, resistance is met. This is a major problem, since those most capable of designing effective user interfaces don't get to do so, and those more suited to the coding side of things have to do make-shift user interface designing according to their ideas of how a user interface should work or what is easy to code.

    Free software companies should take time to stand back from the process, ask the question: what are we trying to do? and what is the most effective way to accomplish those goals? The problem is that it is effectively beyond the power of an individual person in the free software world to influence things unless they have sufficient time and expertise to code examples of what they want.

    --
    John_Chalisque
  32. Cart before the horse - a designer's perspective by bushelpeck · · Score: 1

    Want to make usable software? Start from the human user perspective. Ask what the person does, not what the software does. Adapt the software to the (generalized) user/person. Sounds simple but it is so rarely done especially with non-commercial, custom proprietary and open source software. Usually it's done exactly backwards with software function first and usability bolted or cobbled on at the end, if at all.

    Ask the kinds of questions about software that most developers dismiss as "stupid:" What is it? Who uses it and how? Why?

    I have been quite surprised to find that these questions had never been previously asked and answered for a lot of the (paid) projects I've been involved with. "It's obvious" isn't an answer - obvious to you is not enough. If I could get one usability concept through developers' heads, it would be that the software you're writing is not about you.

    Unfortunately, such suggestions are often met with the reaction that designers are idiots and nobody cares what some Photoshop moron thinks anyway. Hence the reluctance of designers to get involved in the first place, especially with volunteer projects. I would love to contribute to certain open source projects if I thought my contributions would be welcomed.

  33. WDFLFT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Otherwise known as "We Don't Feel Like Fixing That."

    I've long noticed this syndrome on the part of medium and small commercial developers including those consisting entirely of a single coder (and **especially** when the application has little or no competition); it tends to occur as a project gets older and the coders start feeling the pinch of corners they maight have coded themselves into... or they just get stubborn in the face of constant user complaints about particular issues. Eventually the issues become "bug non grata"; if you want your issue X dealt with, don't be bringing up that old problem Y, or X and Y will stick around for a few more versions than was necessary.

    A big part of this attitude is simply that the coders would rather work on the fun and glamorous parts of the code (like say the renderer in a 3D graphics package) instead of the dull and boring housekeeping parts, such as memory handling and UI code, where a lot of issues arise.

    Eventually the userbase starts trickling away, and bug reports start falling off, because the remaining users are pessimistic about them ever getting fixed.

    And all of this happens on commercial projects, where at least there is the profit motive to get developers to smarten up... what is there in open source to deal with this kind of issue?

  34. Agree But Not Limited to Open Source by Comatose51 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Agree with this point: "Coding before design".

    As an UI developer (at least part of the time) at a major software company, I see this pitfall even in my own work. A lot of us are more concerned about coding up the UI to expose the new features but that's where we stop. OK new features is exposed, on to the next one! Then the UI designers come in and suggests all these changes and we end up undoing a lot of the work we did before. It's such a waste of time. This is a mistake we've learned and look to correct in our next version's development cycle. Sometimes it makes sense to develop software from UI on down because at the end of the day, it's the user's experience that matters, not necessarily how clever or elegant the inner workings of our software is (this does matter in the long run -- a good foundation allows us to make changes and add things quickly).

    Another pet-peeve of mine is explaining to the UI designer that we can't do something because of engineering problems when what the designer is suggesting is simple. A rule of thumb of mine is that if the suggested UI interaction/function is simple then the amount of effort to make it happen should also be simple. If it is not, then something is wrong with the UI framework.

    Good UI is in some ways a lot harder than what people might expect. It's really a multi-discipline field that takes more than just a good engineer. It requires a good psychologist (one of our UI designers was a cognitive science major) and a good writer. We learned so much about our UI design from filming people using our product and watching their frustration. This was an expensive process in both time and money. I can see a company being able to do this but it's considerably harder for an open source project, especially a small one without a lot of resources. Bad UI design happens everywhere but it seems only software companies and major open source projects have the dedicated resources to fix it. Like the article said, it's a high bandwidth process; people need to be together at the same place to discuss these things and it takes hours as you can tell from my own submission to Ask Slashdot.

    --
    EvilCON - Made Famous by /.
  35. Even if you fixed the usability . . by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    There are still the issues of acceptance, and support.

    Consider Quickbooks for example, even if there were a f/oss equivalent that was just as good, or better:

    * No significant cost advantage: QuickBooks simple start is free:
    http://quickbooks.intuit.com/product/accounting-software/free-accounting-software.jhtml
    Or I can buy the full version of QuickBooks Pro 2008 in only $145:
    http://www.amazon.com/Intuit-403697-QuickBooks-Pro-2008/dp/B000V4PLWM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1217794735&sr=8-1
    Seems to me that any cost advantage of using a foss alternative is negligible..

    * Wide acceptance: I think most businesses are much more comfortable using products that are accepted standards.

    * Wealth of available add-ons: Intuit has a very active community of 3rd party developers. You can buy practically any kind of an add-on you can imagine. These add-ons cost money, but at least they are available.

    * Major company: I think a lot of businesses are not comfortable with a product unless there is a major company behind that product. I have to admit, even I am not comfortable with software products that are essentially one man operations.

    * Support: I can always hire somebody who knows quickbooks, or find a "ProAdvisor" consultant, or I can get support from the company, and there are hundreds - if not thousands - of developers who specialize in developing for quickbooks. I can not see where that is true for any project.

    * Training availability and costs. I can hire people who already know quickbooks. If I hire somebody to work on some foss alternative, then there will be a significant training expense. Of course, there is also the issue of training availability.

    * Documentation: If I had to pick one thing that kills the usefulness of more foss projects than anything else, this would win in a slam-dunk. Of course, this varies among projects, some foss projects have great documentation. But, I can always find plenty of books, or other documentation for popular proprietary financial apps.

    * Many accountants, maybe as many as 200,000, use QB and recommend it to their clients. Some accountants will charge much more for files that are not in QB format.

    * QB has much better 3rd party integration. For example, ecommerce packages like oscommerce, and magento, work with quickbooks, not foss alternatives. Msft accounting works with ebay. I can not find that sort of integration with foss software.

    1. Re:Even if you fixed the usability . . by BlackCreek · · Score: 1

      Consider Quickbooks for example, even if there were a f/oss equivalent that was just as good, or better:

      Just to add a counter argument to your (very good) arguments:

      * If there was a F/OSS equivalent, and if the quality of it was that high, it would perhaps be already installed in my Linux box.

      Many people use a certain program, think Web Browser, not because it is the best, but because it is the one that they found pre-installed in their computer.

  36. Nitpick... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people who design houses don't build them. Sure, they need a solid foundation in what can and can't be done ...

    In many of the top tier Architectural programs (Yale for one), the students go out and build a house or at least some of it. The reasoning is to for the reasons you've stated.

  37. Re: Usability of Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I fail to see what any of this has to do with socialism. What you described constantly occurs in the free market. It is called "commoditization".

  38. Re: Usability of Free Software by AceofSpades19 · · Score: 1

    I think that would only apply to one or two man projects at best. eg. the firefox dev team won't just stop improving firefox, or the linux kernel devs won't just stop writing the linux kernel

  39. In a nutshell... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they don't respect you because you're "not technical" and you can't code. Basically, the programmers have no respect for anyone who can't code.

  40. The usability still sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps you're right. No one can force you, or should be able to. Still, it does not make the usability better. With that attitude it stays as bad.

  41. The OLPC XO laptop would be a good case study by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This software for the XO laptop is an open source project that is intended to be used by elementary school kids.

    Usability by its target audience is absolutely of the essence. It is not a project in which the developers can get away with saying "it works for me," nor can they tell their eight-year-old audience "if you don't like it, patch it."

    The XO laptop is thus an example of a situation where there are strong "incentives for usability." In fact, the entire enterprise fails if the device is not highly usable by elementary school kids in third world countries with no previous computer experience.

    Time will show us how usable the XO software is. It will either be a data point that demonstrates that, indeed, the open source process produces highly usable software provided only that there is an incentive for usability... or that it really has a systemic problem that incentives cannot overcome.

    1. Re:The OLPC XO laptop would be a good case study by mjeffers · · Score: 1

      The OLPC Sugar UI was designed by the prestigious design firm Pentagram so I'm not sure this represents a scalable solution to the problem.

      Lisa Strausfeld, Christian Marc Schmidt and Takaaki Okada are working on the design of the laptop interface for the One Laptop Per Child project, the initiative to put $100 laptops in the hands of children around the world. Michael Gericke has designed the identity for the initiative. The project is being led by Nicholas Negroponte, the founding director of the MIT Media Lab, and the designers are working in close collaboration with the OLPC development team, including president Walter Bender and designer Eben Eliason. Production on the laptops is scheduled for mid-2007. (from http://blog.pentagram.com/olpc/)

    2. Re:The OLPC XO laptop would be a good case study by Homer1946 · · Score: 1

      The XO laptop is much more like a traditional product. The software is largely developed by paid developers that are part of an organization that can impose a central vision. Also the Sugar software is largely designed to be part of the XO laptop, part of the whole integrated package, much like an Apple product, and as such contributes to it's desirability and sales. I understand that OLPC is not in it for the money, but from a development standpoint it is very similar to a normal commercial product.

  42. Does it do what it claims to do? by splorp! · · Score: 1

    Irfanview

    Notepad++

    CDex

    FileZilla

    Free or open source software that I use frequently have no usability issues. I know there are some horrific free and open source software choices out there. I just don't use the ones that don't lend themselves to ease of use. I stick with the stuff I know works.

    --
    Please don't humanize the morons around me. It makes me very uncomfortable.
  43. Dang by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I already posted in this thread or I would give you all my mod points.

    The most usable of all possible interface is probably the command line. There's no uncertainty about what icons mean, instructions are usually a keystroke or two away (and don't take eleven minutes to get online and load), etc.

    Pace Microsoft Bob, if you cannot be bothered to learn the language (phonetic or ideogrammatic) that an interface is "written" in, don't blame *it.

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:Dang by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      There is just as much interface design that goes into the commandline. There are choices to be made there and there are good and bad cli-applications as well as gui-applications.

      The same problems apply here that they do for GUI applications, often even more so (I suggest you check out Nielsens rules for good ux-design)

    2. Re:Dang by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The command line is an interface only a coder could love. It's usable for people who think in code lines anyway and whose goals are probably best expressed as code too but it fails for anyone who doesn't think like that or doesn't have such goals. E.g. you have something like powerpoint, while a coder would say "I need a label reading 'Coding for Dummies' horizontally centered, vertically at the top, font size bla, etc" a secretary would think "I want the title of the page to read 'Coding for Dummies'". Regular users think in human terms, they don't care what the computer does to get it done as long as it gets done.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  44. TAR and VI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm surprised those were't mentioned in the article. Why, oh, why do you have to type four nonsensical parameters for a file archiver's most basic function (that is, extract the contents)?

    I don't mention VI because I've yet to find the key combination to close the program.

    1. Re:TAR and VI by KTheorem · · Score: 1

      What nonsensical parameters do you use for tar? To extract, you type the name of the program, the operation you want, the option to use a file, what compression you are using (if any), and the location of the file you want to extract. That comes down to: 'tar --extract --file --bzip2 file.tar.bz2'. How is that unintuitive (keeping in mind that --file is needed because it's a tape archiver and you are using it to a different purpose)?

    2. Re:TAR and VI by jrothwell97 · · Score: 1

      Oh, vi is easy. Colon, Q, enter. You're out. If it's not been saved, use :wq! to save or :q! to discard.

      That said, they're both very counter-intuitive. The user doesn't want to have to patch their software. They want it to just work, and in an intuitive and sensible way. I learnt to compute on a Dell workstation with Windows 3.11, MS-DOS 5 (or 6) and Works 2, and I am entirely self-taught. Those interfaces were more intuitive than some FOSS interfaces around today, which is why I was able to sniff my way around and orientate myself quite quickly.

      Something that might solve a lot of problems is better documentation, with proper tutorials. The tutorials in Works and Windows 3 were fantastic in that they explained things very simply, and were interactive: i.e. you learned by doing.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    3. Re:TAR and VI by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      So why do we still use a tape archiver for our downloaded/uploaded and backup archives in this era when hard drive arrays have totally and utterly outmoded tape drives for the average user?

    4. Re:TAR and VI by KTheorem · · Score: 1

      So why do we still use a tape archiver for our downloaded/uploaded and backup archives in this era when hard drive arrays have totally and utterly outmoded tape drives for the average user?

      Because it still works? It's not as if there aren't alternatives (7zip comes to mind), it's just that this is already on all unixes already and so becomes the default. If tar was not adequate for the job, one of the alternatives would have taken over long ago.

    5. Re:TAR and VI by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Well if we want to keep using a Tape ARchiver, maybe we should change the damn thing's interface to work on files by default? Why keep a crappy, unintuitive bit of UI if it doesn't work out of naught but inertia?

    6. Re:TAR and VI by chris_sawtell · · Score: 1

      There is an interactive tutorial built into vi. Just press ESC until it beeps at you and then :h - you are straight into the tutorial cum help system. ZZ or :q! to get out of it.

      I've been using a subset of vi[m] on a regular basis for about 20 years. It just works for me. The keystrokes are completely intuitive - provided your mind-to-finger pathway has not been totally wreaked by becoming habituated to a different editor.

      That's the rub for ALL software - the package you have become used to is what is usable for you.

    7. Re:TAR and VI by KTheorem · · Score: 1

      Well if we want to keep using a Tape ARchiver, maybe we should change the damn thing's interface to work on files by default? Why keep a crappy, unintuitive bit of UI if it doesn't work out of naught but inertia?

      We keep it like that because that's how every other tool that uses tar expects it to work. And for what the tool is for, the --file option is not just there for inertia. It would be silly and unintuitive to have a tape archiver that required a special option to be able to use it for archiving to tape.

      If it really bothers you that the most commonly used archiver doesn't do files by default, it's not like you can't fix it. A simple alias (lets call it far for File ARchive) like 'alias far='tar --file' will create a tar interface which allows you to extract a file with a simple 'far --extract some_file.tar'

    8. Re:TAR and VI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's so simple, yet no UNIX distribution has yet thought of having an "untar" alias by default, you know.

      I'll be surprised if they have one for "cd..", even.

      EDIT: What's this?! Slashdot allowing linebreaks by pressing enter?! WOAH

    9. Re:TAR and VI by jrothwell97 · · Score: 1

      True, vim has a rather good tutorial, even if I'd prefer it to be along the lines of the 'old-style' tutorials.

      I believe some distributions of Windows XP had a 'step-by-step' learning system which had manuals, instructional videos, and interactive tutorials. You were actually given a mock-up of the window, and guided through it keystroke-by-keystroke.

      Vi, once you've got used to it, has a wonderfully powerful interface and becomes quite intuitive when you learn new commands. The problem is that someone who's never touched a computer before is unlikely to think "right... perhaps if I try pressing 'colon'... ah!" This also means they'd not be able to get into the tutorial. It is intuitive to people who've used it before, but it's not intuitive if you've never seen it before.

      On the other hand, if they see a mouse and that moving the mouse moves that little arrow on the screen, they might figure that clicking the mouse will 'press' what the arrow is on. (This is even more intuitive on one-button mice, but even two/three/four-button mice are speedy enough to pick up.)

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
  45. Lockout chip business model by tepples · · Score: 1

    Better would be:

    "How did the carpenter building his own home respond to the (voluntary) suggestions of a professional architect?"

    In this analogy, the right of a carpenter to build his own home, without interference from governments or corporations with market power, would be under attack. This is the case with software intended to run on mobile phones or on affordable computing devices with good SDTV output (such as Wii), where all software must be digitally signed by the platform's maintainer before anyone can run it. There has to be a library of free software on a popular open platform; otherwise, people won't have much of a reason not to switch to a closed platform that uses the lockout chip business model.

  46. Efficiency is not usability by Foerstner · · Score: 1

    I find working from a command line to be the most efficient way to get things done, which is in opposition to most of the world.It often is the most efficient way to get things done. But I doubt even you would say that using the command line for, say, file management, is more natural and understandable to than dragging icons around with a mouse. Even an illiterate use could understand what is going on there.

    (This is not to suggest that a mouse-icon interface is the ultimate form of file-management UI, but it is useful as a point of comparison)

    I don't really think it's possible to quantify "usability" when to most people it's best rendered as "similarity to Microsoft products."
    Well, consistency is certainly a part of usability. If it's possible to just recreate what Microsoft (or whatever industry leader you can expect users to be familiar with) has done, then absolutely you should not re-invent the wheel. Unless you're sure can build a kick-ass wheel.

    For less-well-defined domains, (e.g. totally new classes of software) it is certainly possible (though not easy) to quantifiably measure usability. Most of it involves counting clicks/keypresses, timing testers with a stopwatch in a lab, and surveying users. This requires face-to-face interaction and money, which is where most FOSS projects come up short.

    --
    The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
    1. Re:Efficiency is not usability by dturk · · Score: 1

      I would actually say that, because I'm a verbal person. I've met others too who have trouble with GUIs because they don't think in a visual way, although I do believe most computer users find it more "natural."

      I'm hesitant, though, to use words like "natural" or "intuitive" in describing something as wholly synthetic as the interfaces of computer programs.

      I do like the idea of timing as metric, but there's a big effect of learning on how quickly things get done. Some interfaces are quicker with little knowledge but slower given more time to learn.

    2. Re:Efficiency is not usability by RickRussellTX · · Score: 1

      I doubt even you would say that using the command line for, say, file management, is more natural and understandable to than dragging icons around with a mouse. Even an illiterate use could understand what is going on there.

      Given that many users simply accept the default save location for files, then don't know how to find them after they are saved except to use the "Recent Documents" feature in their software or perform a search, I'm going to have to doubt this claim. In fact, the document/folder paradigm seems to be one of the hardest for truly new users to grasp.

      I recently got into this discussion with my own supervisor. She seemed amazed when I told her that, based on my years of help desk experience, most people aren't very comfortable with a browse/drill down model, but instead prefer a search interface with rich search keys and chronological ordering.

      The "document and folder" paradigm is, I'm afraid, a relic of the early computing era and not very applicable to the thinking of modern new users. That's why Google beat Yahoo.

  47. Speaking of usability by btempleton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I just wrote a detailed comment and previewed. I noted at the end that it was saying I was not logged in, so I could log in or post as anonymous coward. So I clicked the login link, logged in and boom -- the long comment was erased.

    The pre-javascript interface probably would not have done that.

    Short summary of longer post:

    1) He dances around but misses one other scenario. The designer knows the right UI, but it's harder to code, and so chooses to do a lesser but workable UI to have more time to code other things. The problem is the coder is also the "funder" and makes decisions based on how hard things are to code, rather than what's best for the users.

    2) It's a false economy sometimes. Why do we write free software? I would hope part of the goal is to make code that lots of people will use. Yet sometimes we choose to work on a feature that will please 10% of our 10,000 users rather than a UI that will make us accessible to 100,000 users.

    --
    Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
    1. Re:Speaking of usability by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      Why do we write free software? I would hope part of the goal is to make code that lots of people will use.

      I write free software to fill some need that I have. If others find it useful as well, great, but that's not why I write it.

    2. Re:Speaking of usability by btempleton · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not why you write it, but why do you give it away under a free software licence, if not so others can make use of it?

      And anyway, while some simply code for their own purposes, I don't think that contradicts the statement that many free software owners want their code to be widely used.

      --
      Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
  48. Wait a minute by AceofSpades19 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    " Chasing tail-lights. In the absence of a definite design of their own, many developers assume that whatever Microsoft or Apple have done is good design. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it isnâ(TM)t. In imitating their designs, Free Software developers repeat their mistakes, and ensure that they can never have a better design than the proprietary alternatives. Solution: Encourage innovative design through awards and other publicity. Update design guidelines, where appropriate, to reflect the results of successful design experiments. "
    Most people complain if it doesn't act exactly like the proprietary counter part, eg. The GIMP. I bet most the "usability" problems of free software is that it doesn't look and act exactly like the closed-source counter part

    1. Re:Wait a minute by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most people complain if it doesn't act exactly like the proprietary counter part, eg. The GIMP. I bet most the "usability" problems of free software is that it doesn't look and act exactly like the closed-source counter part

      Photoshop has years of professional usability research incorporated into its design. What are the human-computer interface credentials of The GIMP team, and what justification can they offer for those interface elements that are different not only from the closed-source counter part, but from practically every other GUI application in common use?

      It's dangerous to "chase the tail lights" and not learn from the big players' failures, but it's equally dangerous to reject what they're doing and therefore not learn from their successes.

  49. No it is not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you would be designing a mall for me and I noticed that some area would be better accessible if you added a new walkway and some doors, you would as a good architect listen to me. Not just because you wouldn't get paid if you didn't (which often would be true), but also because end users are always right.

    End users are not right in what they want though. They know that something bugs them, and often can't tell what it exactly is, or how to fix it. Their suggestions are sometimes quite horrible, and they are not giving exact solutions to problems. Still, they nearly flawlessly always know that something IS wrong. It is the job of the better architects to attempt to understand what is the real problem and fix it. If you wanted to hop back into software usability, people feel naturally things like the focus stealing issues, having to memorize complex paths to functions, and confusing dialog language as bad. They come in 90%+ of the cases forward with real issues, real problems, although their explanation of the problem and how it should be fixed is most commonly trash.

    Now, bad architects would either tell the end user to stfu or (often even worse) implement blindly what was requested. That wouldn't fix the problem in either any way, or produce plain mess. A good one would attempt to understand the real issue, and when failing (in open source case, 99.99% of the time) go ask for a second opinion from subject area expert. Oh, building architects are not almighty. They know a lot, but they do ask from others if they need some detail.

    Usability experts are available to developers, and they are more than willing to tell you why the current feature X is bad, and why. That discussion is based on the limits of the human brain and cognition, and on solid science. It is reasoned, logical, and can produce great value.

    What I don't get are people who are like "Why should I? I am doing this on my free time! You can't force me!". It is exactly the same as saying "I know I am a bad architect. I do not want to take bride of job well done. I like my creations being bad! I don't want to evolve into something better!". It's plain appalling and I feel kind of sad because of it.

  50. Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's one simple concept:
    There are two ways in which software is built. The business way, and the open source way.

    The business way is driven by the target of making money. So they try to appeal to everyone. This usually (wrongly) leads to making it as easy as possible, so everyone can use it.

    Then there's the open source way. This one has no interest in money, so the creators add, what they like to have in the software. Now usually these are computer professionals, and because they built it, of course it's perfectly usable for them. Unfortunately this means it's very hard to use for non-professionals.

    Both ways have their flaws for those that are not in the target group. But they emerged naturally.

    The solution is, to let everyone grow to his own level of expertise in the program. We need a program that starts out being as easy as it gets, but grows with your involvement. (=if you work more with it.) Something like difficulty modes in games. Just it's not the difficulty. It's the shortcuts, the special view modes, the application layout, the shown controls, the wizards, and so on.
    Of course you can always set that level yourself.

    Think of vi, in notepad mode, then gradually growing to emacs if you like. ;) (o boy, i'll get killed for this... hint: i like none of those 3 editors because of the problems mentioned in this post. ;)

    The best thing about it: You can make the Gnome people AND the KDE people happy. Oh, and the console/magnet/butterfly people too :)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by SnowZero · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can't wait to be greeted by a dialog like this:
      Level up! You have unlocked the spelling checker.

    2. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by amn108 · · Score: 1

      You are essentially advocating for smarter UIs. The ones that adapt and cater needs not for the (much beaten) term "target audience" but a specific end-user, the one that happens to be using an instance of said software at the time. Good idea! (NOT sarcasm)

      Just remember that UIs not necessarily need to start as dumbed-down and grow complicate from there. If the majority of users of said software are power users, it would be an annoyance for them to wait until the UI grows complicated enought for them to use it, as opposed to it developing the other way around - dumbing down gradually until the user finds it easy enough :-)

      The bottomline is, a smarter UI implementation is called for.

    3. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Sorry. I'm no native speaker, and my spelling checker did not complain. How do you write this then?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    4. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are completely right. I addressed the "growing problem" with the ability to set your "difficulty level" at any time. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    5. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

      The solution is, to let everyone grow to his own level of expertise in the program. We need a program that starts out being as easy as it gets, but grows with your involvement. (=if you work more with it.) Something like difficulty modes in games. Just it's not the difficulty. It's the shortcuts, the special view modes, the application layout, the shown controls, the wizards, and so on.
      Of course you can always set that level yourself.

      I've seen lots of people advocate this approach, and a few actually release something based upon it. It doesn't work, because "level of expertise" isn't a linear spectrum. For example, everyone starts out with about the same level of expertise when they first learn to drive a car, but then people start to go in different directions. Most just commute along a set route every day, and use the standard interface. Many, however, has special needs; they become experts in different aspects of driving and use specialized interfaces that are all different from each other. The dashboard of a limousine is different from that of a diesel truck, which is different from that of a taxi. And even if you just commute, the dashboard of a sub-compact has differences from that of a mini-van. (And this is just "street legal" vehicles...)

      Microsoft, a few years back, changed Office to use menus that hid infrequently used options, apparently thinking that each user would evolve an interface specialized to their specific needs. I didn't hear of any positive reviews, and the next release returned to "standard" menus.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    6. Re:Usability is not even CLOSE to the problem. :( by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Oh, your language was fine, so don't worry about that at all.

      I was just pointing out how your "growing complexity" usability approach is much like what video games do. The "level up" quote is common for RPG-style games to announce new abilities a character has acquired, and a spelling checker was the first thing that came to mind of a slightly more advanced feature in basic everyday software. So, it was just meant as a joke.

      I think your approach has merit, since its been used to great effect with video games. Usually people can just pick up a game and start playing, and I think part of that is that it doesn't throw everything at you at once; You build your way up to the more complex game elements.

      Btw, Sorry for the slow response.

  51. Re:Usability expert with a (little) bit of free ti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why benefit only one project?

    See if said colleague isn't interesting in trying to work up something along the lines of usuability guidelines such as those for notable Apple products and productions.

    Linux clearly already has enough coding guidelines, maybe some general interface ones are in order (that go beyond use E17 for widget support or similar)

  52. Re:Usability expert with a (little) bit of free ti by Narishma · · Score: 2, Informative

    Maybe your friend could join OpenUsability.org?

    --
    Mada mada dane.
  53. Tux Paint needs help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no good design for cut-and-paste, zoom, or dealing with images that don't exactly fit the screen.

    Note that the target audience is about age 2 to 12, especially age 4 to 9. Ideas swiped from Photoshop will NOT work with this crowd. Scroll bars are probably out of the question.

  54. There's always... by JackassJedi · · Score: 5, Informative

    OpenUsability

    I used to work at the company which started it. It's a platform for free software developers to meet usability specialists, and so far it's coming quite good. The KDE 4 HIG was designed by us ("us" as i still used to work there at the time this was done), and the people working there are certainly bright minded people, but there's always friction at the implementation front. In my experience it's not neccessarily easy to convince a developer that a given usability decision is the right one, even if someone with a background in usability makes the proposal.

    --
    Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
    1. Re:There's always... by w000t · · Score: 1

      Is there a finished KDE4 HIG available somewhere? An (admittedly quick) Google search only get to this, which looks more like an early draft.

    2. Re:There's always... by JackassJedi · · Score: 1

      It is still being worked on. Check also this page: http://season.openusability.org/index.php/projects/2008/kde4

      --
      Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
    3. Re:There's always... by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      The situation can quickly become ridiculous. Several years ago I wrote a GUI application. I was, and still am, very into usability. So I followed the GNOME Human User Interface Guidelines (which was inspired by Apple's HIG and had contributions by large companies). I followed the GNOME HIG's recommendation about notifying the user about a process that takes an unknown amount of time. So I implemented a "throbbing" progress bar, as was suggested.

      And what kind of reactions do you think I got?
      - "OMG this sucks"
      - "you have no idea how to make usable software!"
      - "someone should kill you for having designed it that way"

      So what does this mean? What am I supposed to do with this kind of reactions?

    4. Re:There's always... by JackassJedi · · Score: 1

      The obvious reaction of people doesn't matter; what matters is how they effectively feel about something going on in the app. They might hate how the UI looks (but possibly not up to the point where they stop using it; if they would do that, it's certainly out of the way altogether), but they might still feel safer with the throbber present.

      That's unfortunately nothing you can measure when just asking people, you either have to just trust you, your usability people (if it's not yourself), and/or make usability tests where you give people tasks and see how they perform them and if they feel safe performing the tasks.

      For your case i could imagine giving test candidates two versions of the UI, with and without throbber, and see whether each group waits until the process has finished or doesn't maybe try to kill/exit the app in between because they believe it's hanging.

      --
      Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
  55. Re: Usability of Free Software by grumbel · · Score: 1

    A lot of free software comes about because of the need, or the personal interest.

    And that is often why it is good. Complains about usability in Free Software slowly get old. Not only has Free Software improved quite a lot over the years, commercial software also got rather horrible. Its mindbogglingly how many pointless dialogs and licenses one has to click away in Windows Vista just to make something simple work, yet on Linux you have none of those problems. Its also a little ridiculous how a mouse driver can take 70MB to download on Windows, while it just works by default on Linux.

    Now of course none of that means that Linux doesn't have problems, but they aren't really half as big an issue as some people claim.

  56. theats a bucha bs by flahwho · · Score: 1

    What we're talking about here is the ability to CODE not to tell programmers what works as a UI. If you are better suited to be an end user or debugger, or a liaison of some sort, don't friggin program, because chances are - you suck at programming, but know how a UI should operate. Instead what is needed is that "liaison" person to LEAD a programming project, and make sure it's good for an end user. Programmers sometimes get blinded by their own ideas and end up making a program that is useless to anyone else but them.
    Freeware/shareware programmers all to often do not get someone like this involved ; they're self- employed enthusiasts,looking for some crap to add to a portfolio.

    Stupid is as stupid does leads to GIGO

  57. OLPC does say "if you don't like it, patch it." by r00t · · Score: 1

    Why else do you think they wrote Sugar in Python?

    I actually think it is great to encourage the
    eight year olds to patch software, but...

    Since the problem is performance, and the solution
    is getting rid of Python, all the damn Python isn't
    helping at all!

    1. Re:OLPC does say "if you don't like it, patch it." by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

      "Why else do you think they wrote Sugar in Python?"

      Maybe Sugar is written in Python, but you can't prove it by me. David Pogue praised the Reveal Source button in The New York Times last year, and I thought it was one of the most exciting features of the device... but on my XO the Reveal Source button still doesn't seem to do anything. (And I downloaded Update.1 last month).

    2. Re:OLPC does say "if you don't like it, patch it." by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Hiya,

      I'm working on the Develop activity that will eventually handle the View Source key. In fact, I'm writing the GUI designer for Develop.

      Now, my question: which one is the View Source key? And do you know how the Sugar software currently handles it?

    3. Re:OLPC does say "if you don't like it, patch it." by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

      I'm playing fair and answering this from memory. I tried it before Update.1, it didn't work, I tried it briefly and casually after Update.1 and it still didn't seem to work. When I tried it out I checked the documentation.

      Here's my answer. It's the key that has a picture of a gear on it. It's a multifunction key. You have to hold at least one other key down at the same time, I think it's ctrl-key, and the multifunction key might actually be the spacebar or a key next to the spacebar.

      In the browser, and only in the browser, it acts as a "View Source" key for HTML. Elsewhere, it does nothing whatsoever; there's no feedback that the key has been pressed at all.

      Now that I'm on record, I'm going to go get my XO and try again and correct anything I'd said that's wrong.

      1) The key with the picture of the gear on it is indeed the spacebar.

      2) According to Keyboard Shortcuts, the "View Source" key is Fn+Space, and it is supposed to work "system wide."

      On the one hand I was wrong because I said it was "ctrl," on the other hand the location of the "fn" key at the lower-left-hand corner of the keyboard, which is where the "ctrl" key is on my other keyboards. Most likely I in fact pressed the fn key the other times I've tried it.

      3) I am looking at the main screen with the XO "buddy" in the center, the segmented doughnut with the Journal showing as the only open application. When I press fn+space, nothing appears to happen.

      4) I am now opening the Journal. When I press fn+space, nothing appears to happen.

      5) I am now opening the Browser. When I press fn+space, it does NOT, as I said above, show me HTML source. Instead, it opens the Journal to an entry describing the Browser page?????

      6) I am now opening the Terminal. When I press fn+space, nothing appears to happen.

      7) I am now opening Write. When I press fn+space, nothing appears to happen.

      So, have I got the right key combination? And am I right or wrong in saying that, based on my observations, the Sugar software currently handles it by ignoring it?

    4. Re:OLPC does say "if you don't like it, patch it." by r00t · · Score: 1

      Pretty much, yes. It may work in the Chat activity.

      It wasn't well thought out. It'd work great if
      the whole system were purely FORTH, Smalltalk,
      or LISP.

      Consider the web browser. Does the key view the
      web page HTML, the Python wrapper around the
      firefox engine, the firefox engine, the Python
      interpreter...? Don't forget the C library,
      the X server, libjpeg, and the kernel!

      Then, uh, you need tools. You need gcc, g++,
      bison, make, cvs, subversion, etc.

  58. I'm afraid I must disagree... by Howard+Roark · · Score: 1

    While I agree with the author's intent, many of his proposed solutions are in conflict with the basic nature of open source development which largely rejects the notion of up-front design. Most sucessful projects rely on "evolution, not intelligent design."

    I do however agree with the author's suggestion of design awards. I think they would have the potential to establish the idea in the community that design (both visual and ergonomic) is just as important as coding prowess. All open source developers want to create popular applications and they want technical recognition for their work. Just as developers recognise the importance of good coding craftsmanship, so too usability needs to become an important technical consideration in evaluating technical quality.

    Another approach would be "design makeovers." Within both the GNOME and KDE communities, exist many small projects written by newer developers. A sponsoring organization, for example a Linux magazine, could select a small project and give it a "makeover." This would involve a couple of experienced coders and a designer who would apply (with the cooperation of the original author) a set of fixes to the UI. The final result would then be presented to the public (along with a lot of before and after screen shots) with a detailed explaination of the improvements and their rationale.

    While usability and visual design may require talents that do not come naturally to all developers, we have seen (in the case of stronger security design, for example) that the development community is not incapabable of adapting to new standards of technical excellence. All it takes is for the community to be sufficiently concerned about the issue.

    --
    Howard Roark, Architect
    I believe in a Man's right to exist for his own sake.
    1. Re:I'm afraid I must disagree... by amn108 · · Score: 1

      Surely, you do not mean that developers should be UI designers as well? It is two completely different areas of expertise and knowledge.

      Also, evolution is great, Nature seems to benefit from it too, but if a project has not been evolving in UI department since its original inception, there is hardly any difference between up-front-designing it and evolving (or, rather, not evolving) it subsequently. Nobody gets it right the first time, but let me correct you "evolution AND intelligent design". First being fundamental. Second is not.

  59. Some great points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the author makes some great points in this essay. The only issue I take with it is that all of the suggestions he makes require quite a bit of leg work and organization. Its useless to write an essay about all the work that should be done by other people.

    I think what we need is a Free Software Design and Usability Foundation. And with all his poignant ideas, I would like to see the author of the work help to start it. It could help to make the design material he speaks of available, help to draw more usability experts and UI designers to volunteer where they are most needed. Help give guidelines for best practices, and coordinate the awards he speaks of, possibly with a cash prize generated by donations. It could really do a lot of good for the FOSS community.

    But if he's not going to attempt to help start such activities, well, I simply have no respect for someone who writes at length about the work other people should do.

  60. Why "Usability" doesn't matter by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here is an explanation of why "Usability" doesn't matter.

    People forget the other SDLC, the software DEPLOYMENT life cycle.

    People also forget that "Usability" means something totally different to novice and experienced users.

    The only people whom have a 30 minute SDLC (software deployment lifecycle) is

    1) Magazine/Blog Reviewers

    2) Usability guinea pigs

    3) Usability critics

    Completely absent in this list is the actual software users.

    Not surprisingly the 30 minute wonders are not going to get along with long term users, and the developers are usually long term users.

    Besides, there is a dumb hidden assumption in the computing world that no one wants to discuss is that there should only be one level of user sophistication that all tools should aspire to.

    Other fields do not have that problem... For example a CNC milling machine, at least for the first 30 minutes, is much less usable than a blacksmiths forge. Oddly enough we don't have to suffer thru pompous claims about the superior user interface of hammer, tongs, and forge.

    Basically the marketing folks are becoming irrelevant and they are pissed about that, hence ridiculous claims against the enemy, etc.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Why "Usability" doesn't matter by amn108 · · Score: 1

      I did not understand at all what you were trying to say here. I don't apologize for that, but would appreciate it if you tried again. Please :-) Thank you. At least it was something interesting (i suspect).

      (i am not being sarcastic)

  61. Maybe it's just me... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...but I find most of the "ugly" usability problems I find aren't fixed by rearranging some buttons. I think there's plenty competition (Ubuntu, Red Hat, Suse, Mandriva etc etc) on adding those last bits of paint and polish. For example I've struggled endlessly with x11/xorg.conf in the past to get the resolutions right. I don't really care how you implement the resolution/refresh dialog, 99% of the hard work is making something that works so easily. Oh yeah and my dual screen setup still doesn't work right, had to give up on that. Getting Linux to recognize and map all the buttons on my mouse was another one, it's not the UI it's the core system behind it. One funny case I had now with another computer with two soundcards (built-in that doesn't work in Linux + audigy) is that the cards will randomly swap id on boot so I have to fix the sound setup 50% of the time. Very very fun. Taking a solid product and making it usable for a big audience = $$$. So I'm not worried, just get the base in place.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Maybe it's just me... by Steve+Baker · · Score: 1

      If one sound card doesn't work, just add the driver to the blacklist (or disable in the BIOS if it's on the MB). If you wanted two cards to work and boot in a specific order, you can usually set certain modules to load on boot and in which order they are loaded. If the two cards are of the same kind you can, at last resort, setup udev rules to determine which card will be which based on their PCI ID or IRQ or somesuch. I know, not easy, but possible.

  62. Another reason by jabernathy · · Score: 1

    Many KDE, Gnome or X applications are just fronts to command line tools. It is frustrating to write GUIs for these programs because they weren't designed to use one in the first place.

  63. Who says open source software has poor usability? by oSand · · Score: 1

    The author himself states that usability is hard to measure, but has no problem declaring that OSS usability poor. He doesn't appear to cite any research, so is there anything more than anecdotal evidence to suggest this is the case?

  64. Please stay by Sybert42 · · Score: 0

    We need some diversity at /. .

  65. A usability issue so widespread I lost all hope by the_olo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One doesn't have to look far to find small but serious usability issues in open source software.

    For example, did you hear about Fitt's Law and "mile high menu bar"/ "infinite size widget" effect?

    For detailed description, see e.g. this Ubuntu bug.

    It turns out that while the Windows and Mac software got this right (at least with respect to scrollbars), massive amounts of OpenSource software (even high profile projects for Gtk/Gnome and Qt/KDE, like Gnumeric, Gnucash, OpenOffice, Konqueror or Kword) add an idiotic small border to their document area that seems to serve only one purpose - prevent this usability effect and make all users' lifes harder.

    BTW, I highly recommend Joel Spolsky's "User interface design for programmers" - that's the very least a coder could do to educate himself in the area of usability. The book is very interesting, easy to read and quite short.

    1. Re:A usability issue so widespread I lost all hope by the_olo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      BTW if someone says that I should have filed proper bug reports, note that the bug reports concerning this problem have been reported a long time ago to relevant bugzillas.

      What those issues need is a dedicated and experienced Gnome/KDE programmer to step in and solve them (I am not one).

    2. Re:A usability issue so widespread I lost all hope by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I will have a look at this for KDE.

  66. MacOS X by inKubus · · Score: 1

    I haven't had any problems using any software that's somewhat mature. If you know how to use Unix, you can use almost any software out there. I mean, you only really need to know tar, ./configure, make, make install, that's about it. Oh, and chgrp and chmod for permissions. And /etc is your config files. The rest just comes with experience. Everything is extremely usable; there is no wasted actions when using most unix programs I've seen. The problem is people see "usability" as being "shiny" which is not the same thing. Almost all of the comments I've seen so far have been about "shiny". If it's Usable, it DOES THE JOB. That's it.

    If you want shiny, you move to MacOS X or Windows and you're going to pay for all of that design.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
    1. Re:MacOS X by Heshler · · Score: 1

      I really can't tell if this is tongue in cheek.

  67. Let's decouple GUI and application more... by azgard · · Score: 1

    I believe that there exists a good technical solution to this problem: GUI should be decoupled from the application, to the point it could be created in some WYSIWYG editor and dynamically linked with it.

    Just imagine, if you would like GIMP to behave more like Photoshop, you would just take the UI source file in the editor and edit it. You could move the panels, change keybindings, restructure dialogs and so on. Then you would just save it, and voila - you could run GIMP as a Photoshop. No programming skill required, really. Or even better - there would be a whole repository of such UI skins, because it would be so damn easy to create them.

    This is what happened with the web applications (the visual design/application logic separation).

    There would be a couple of problems to solve, like how to describe custom widgets in generic enough fashion, but it should work for the most part. But it would also save people a lot of work trying to rewrite the same application in their favorite GUI toolkit.

    1. Re:Let's decouple GUI and application more... by amn108 · · Score: 1

      Right on point.

  68. Re: Usability of Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it is free, what is the incentive for enhancement and bettering?

    Have you been under a rock for the past 10 years? How about:

    - Personal satisfaction
    - Acknowledgement and respect for your work

    Or if you still can't believe that anyone would program out of personal interest:

    - To acquire or improve the skills that get you salary-earning positions

    And believe it or not, many developers today actually (drum roll please) get paid to work on open source.

    If you don't think open source is big business today, you need to open your eyes and have a look around.

  69. Let us choose a GUI level to use by croux · · Score: 1

    Most programs offered just one user interface, but it could be easy to provide the user a choice level: simple, advanced, expert. The simple and advanced user interface levels should show only some parts of the Expert user interface, and this last level will be the one the programers will develop intensively.

  70. Usability? Pfft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If people spent less time focusing on usability and more time focusing on easability, the world would be a much, much better place.

  71. Usability guidelines by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    I find that poor usability is caused by the programmers' arrogance. They fail to understand that having a usability advisor is MORE THAN RECOMMENDED for any open source project. Their word isn't their opinion. Their word is AUTHORITY and should be followed.

    To solve this problem, usability guidelines are published. wxWidgets have the wyoGuide. GNOME has the User Interface Guidelines.

  72. Start the most unpopular FOSS group ever? by smchris · · Score: 1

    A group of designers review three or four programs every quarter. They submit their results to the developers. The program with a weighed average of worst usability and most developer attitude makes the quarterly wall of shame. What's an appropriate phrase for the acronym "Meddlers"?

    1. Re:Start the most unpopular FOSS group ever? by chromatic · · Score: 1

      The program with a weighed average of worst usability and most developer attitude makes the quarterly wall of shame.

      If there's a worse way to encourage people to continue to develop and distribute free software for free, I haven't heard it.

  73. A better pile of poo by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    I found this article a while ago.

    "Software Development's Evolution towards Product Design"

    http://lostgarden.com/2006/02/software-developments-evolution.html

    Here's the PDF. You'll love it.

  74. Is it just me... by Tatsh · · Score: 1

    No, I haven't RTFA yet. But regardless, I think Windows has no user interface guidelines really, or nobody reads them or has any sense of what kind of user interface guidelines. One commenter said that UNIX applications are generally made to work well with other UNIX applications. I think this is great and all. The same thing happens in Windows. We have the Drag-n-Drop functionality (which is workable with nearly all applications because it's built into the API), at the very least.

    Windows is not a great example when it comes to usability, either. Microsoft has set a defacto standard for how Windows applications should look but they keep changing it. Now they don't even want menus apparently. I see hardly any 'standards' in Windows when it comes to interface, especially when talking about 3rd party developers. At least in XP, consider Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer 7. Windows Explorer and IE7 are pretty different, not even the same navigational buttons; refresh button is in an entirely random place in my opinion in IE7. Then consider the normal range of applications ever Windows user has. Let us consider the average user with XP installed. They have Norton (yes I know it's terrible, but it's what a lot of users have) AntiVirus 2008, ZoneAlarm Pro for firewall, Ad-Aware Pro for anti-spyware, Microsoft Office 2003, and Adobe Reader. Norton has this all-yellow (extremely ugly) interface that follows no standards whatsoever other than Symantec's crappy 'home user interface' standards; it hardly references the Windows API directly. All of its interface is custom-made to seem easy to any user it seems, even though it hardly looks like a Windows application since it looks drastically different from Explorer. It does not even have a Windows border. ZoneAlarm Pro is nearly the same story, a completely custom-made perhaps 'themeable' interface. Again, it hardly looks like a Windows programme. It's not like the popups from the tray even look like the Windows ones (AFAIK you cannot have a button in one of those with the standard Windows API). They have different colour scheme, etc. The interface is of course, another custom interface made to be 'easy to use'. Ad-Aware is again the same. It is a skinnable interface (there are skins available to choose from), and no buttons look like Windows API buttons. It does not even use standard OK/Cancel//Yes/No dialogues. Office 2003: toolbars that are styled differently from other Windows applications (I forget what the style is called), hard-coded fonts, etc. I don't think I really need to mention about Adobe Reader, we know how that is, especially after version 8. At the very least, Adobe Reader still makes a lot of usage of the Windows API directly (dialog boxes, especially).

    I am not advocating the use of the Windows API over any other API. It is just that these 'theme' interfaces are in my opinion a terrible idea. They do not ease the use of the application at all and they make the application use way more RAM, just for what? A nice looking gradient-filled interface? Pointless at best. An anti-virus program should be fast as hell in my opinion, and Norton is the epitome, leading people to think that their computer is supposed to be so slow. I hardly ever see a 'theme' interface in a GUI application in Linux. They stick with Qt or GTK+ (which can of course mean following KDE or GNOME standards), or even Tk, among a few others. It must not be a total waste of money/resources/time for Symantec to hire graphics designers to make a very graphical interface (meaning the buttons are not just Windows buttons, they are coloured or have a gradient behind them, rounded edges, crap like that).

    I am advocating standardising any GOOD user interface. I do not think any of them are perfect right now. At the very least, GIMP now uses FreeDesktop icons which are supposed to be standard. What would be great is if this standard could be cross-platform too. So far we have something we are just used to, not really standard, and probably not even very efficient. Consider our menu. W

    1. Re:Is it just me... by Shados · · Score: 1

      I think Windows has no user interface guidelines really, or nobody reads them or has any sense of what kind of user interface guidelines.

      Nobody reads them. The problem with Windows is that the developers totally sucks and don't even read the guidelines. I mean, Vista has to emulate the My Document folders because a ton of stupid devs hard coded the path to it, instead of using the system variables (so that when the document folder changes, the app would still work). Nevermind UI design guidelines.

      But they are there, they're pretty detailed too (almost down to the pixel), and they're not bad (though the Vista ones aren't as good as the previous ones). Just, no one reads em. Most don't even know about them, they just fire up Visual Studio, start drag and dropping, and put on their resume that they are senior developers, and HR buys it.

    2. Re:Is it just me... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      A good example of a proprietary developer is Apple. They have some very strict guidelines on interface, and follow them on their own applications (in my opinion) very well. Hardly any 3rd party applications for Mac follow these guidelines exactly.

      Hate to break it to you, but Apple does not follow their own human interface guideline fully, there are numerous violations in iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, mail.app etc.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    3. Re:Is it just me... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      I mean, Vista has to emulate the My Document folders

      They are symbolic links on the file system. Not really any kind of 'emulation'. Before Vista, NTFS only supported hard links. Microsoft could of used either one.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    4. Re:Is it just me... by Shados · · Score: 1

      Not emulation, but its still trailing the legacy luggage, and in this case, it wasn't even required. Its also possible to set ANYTHING as "My Document" in a corporate environment (like a folder on the network), and this can screw up your app, too, if you hardcode the path. Applications appending the path to document and settings to the user's name caused me insane headaches, and not just with Vista.

      There's a freagin environment variable for it, use it (thats what you're supposed to do in Unix too, no?).

      ITs just the same deal with everything... lousy wannabe VB6 devs coding like trash, and they're not done yet.... I see it everyday in .NET, too.

  75. Re: Usability of Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not the same set of problems. FOSS shares the fundamental problem of proprietary software: if no one wants it, it will slowly die. If no one buys it, then it doesn't get better. In both models, the software has to come out strong and useful if enough people are going to use it for it to gain more developers through interest (FOSS) or through funds (proprietary).

  76. Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Morgaine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The main problem is, I think, unsolvable

    Sadly, you may be right about this, judging by the vast majority of responses from developers in this article thread so far.

    Almost as one, the FOSS developers here seem to have responded (paraphrasing): "Nobody is paying me for this work, so I'll be darned if they're going to tell me how the UI should be designed for usability." And even some non-developers have defended that stance.

    This suggests that, indeed, there may be no solution to the problem coming from the community of FOSS developers itself.

    But what if we were shamed into it?

    What if Microsoft, or Apple, came out with a public statement that "FOSS products have extremely poor usability, because their developers refuse to accept usability input." It would be hard to defend against such an accusation, since we have almost no cases of devs accepting input from non-devs.

    This would cause a huge uproar, I'm willing to bet. Maybe that would shake us out of this impasse.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
    1. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by chromatic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Almost as one, the FOSS developers here seem to have responded (paraphrasing): "Nobody is paying me for this work, so I'll be darned if they're going to tell me how the UI should be designed for usability."

      That's a lousy paraphrase, almost libelous. How about "Nobody is paying me for this work, and the development model and license I have chosen let other people make changes as they see fit. If you want it, please feel free to contribute something more constructive than whining about how unusable you think this software is."

    2. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paraphrases are a matter of interpretation, but the effect is the same anyway: devs on FOSS projects don't seem willing to accept any input on UI usability from outside the dev circle, even when it's highly constructive and polite. I think that was the point being made.

    3. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can you provide some examples of highly constructive and polite UI discussions? I do very little GUI-related work; I'm curious to see the proposals and discussions.

    4. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      What if Microsoft, or Apple, came out with a public statement that "FOSS products have extremely poor usability, because their developers refuse to accept usability input." It would be hard to defend against such an accusation, since we have almost no cases of devs accepting input from non-devs.

      Well, I'm a Microsoft shill so I could do it "FOSS products have extremely poor usability, because their developers refuse to accept usability input."

      Additionally I'll add that Linux has extremely poor support for modern hardware because the developers refuse to provide a stable API which would allow binary drivers.

      You're welcome.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    5. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Escogido · · Score: 1

      What if Microsoft, or Apple, came out with a public statement that "FOSS products have extremely poor usability, because their developers refuse to accept usability input." It would be hard to defend against such an accusation, since we have almost no cases of devs accepting input from non-devs.

      This would cause a huge uproar, I'm willing to bet.

      Pardon? You expect Microsoft to help FOSS indirectly by educating their competition about their weak spots? :) Somehow I don't see that happening.

      Actually in my opinion, usability is actually one of the greatest advantages of the non-FOSS software. And FOSS often doesn't have it for one simple reason: good UX designers are PRETTY DAMN EXPENSIVE, because there are just too few of these, much fewer than the IT industry requires.

      So as soon as people start to realize that Immediately Obvious piece of software is better than a more feature-complete one, there will be increased demand on UX designers and so there will eventually be more UX designers. The process has already started, albeit slow, but for now we still get to hear the ubiquitous King of Arguments 'I like the interface, and who doesn't should go RTFM' quite often.

    6. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'm a Microsoft shill ... Linux has extremely poor support for modern hardware because the developers refuse to provide a stable API which would allow binary drivers.

      Shill all you like, but you've got the analysis back to front about binary drivers on both counts.

      Linux has extraordinarily good support for both modern and new hardware currently, far better than that provided by Microsoft nowadays. The crossover point came around 3 years ago when Linux caught up on the driver front, and now it's Microsoft that lags dreadfully behind. Indeed, when Vista came out, Microsoft shafted itself by invalidating 95% of third-party WinXP drivers. There's no comparison now, Linux is miles ahead.

      And binary drivers would destroy the reliability of Linux, so providing a binary API for them would benefit only the companies who profit from them (and the malware writers who exploit them), while the customers would suffer. So, no thanks, Linux's approach is far better for us, and hence is the right one.

      On the issue of usability, I doubt if you have standing to comment, since the usability of Vista is nil.

    7. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, no thanks, Linux's approach is far better for us, and hence is the right one.

      Q.E.D.

    8. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      It would be hard to defend against such an accusation, since we have almost no cases of devs accepting input from non-devs.

      Yeah, its not like any major open source projects accept bug reports and feature requests other than patches submitted by developers.

    9. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're confusing "willing to accept" and "willing to implement." Also, you may be pissing people off by assuming that anyone who does development work on a project cares about that project's ability to serve a large user population. They may fix bugs, hang out on IRC, and answer questions because they enjoy the camaraderie and get satisfaction from the work, not because they care about users. If you assume they care about users, they may interpret that as you guilt-tripping them into doing work for you.

    10. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, no thanks, Linux's approach is far better for us, and hence is the right one.

      Q.E.D.

      Reading Q.E.D. literally, this comment seems to be an indictment on the grounds of circularity, but the GP's point is substantial and extremely important. A stable driver API would benefit companies that distribute drivers, NOT "us" the users. It is better to have drivers that work than to have a few more drivers, but lower quality overall. This might have been arguable years ago when there were far fewer drivers available, but now the wisdom of this strategy is apparent.

    11. Re:Maybe if MS/Apple shamed us into it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They may fix bugs, hang out on IRC, and answer questions because they enjoy the camaraderie and get satisfaction from the work, not because they care about users.

      Oh yeah, the ego-petting developers, who only write FOSS apps to give their own egos and self-image a boost. They're fairly common, sadly, but I guess that's life. Fortunately not too many are so obsessed with themselves that they can see nothing else. Most care a lot about the quality of their software, how it's perceived by their use base.

      If you assume they care about users, they may interpret that as you guilt-tripping them into doing work for you.

      "Guilt-tripping" is a mighty peculiar interpretation of "wanting the UI to be more usable". :-)

      Admittedly, there are developers who write an app purely for their own use and have no interest at all in whether it appeals to others, let alone actually doing any work to make it appeal to others. For the rest though, it is safe to assume that they want good usability for their software so that it grows a large user base and enjoys a good reputation, and hence feedback on usability ought to be welcome.

      Unfortunately, the evidence shows otherwise, as usability feedback appears not to be welcome anywhere in the FOSS community. (If you know of a FOSS project that openly embraces feedback on usability from non-devs, please say --- it would be great to see an exception!)

  77. Motivation by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think one important aspect is motivation. And this is wider than just open source software. I think everybody would like their software to have better usability. But, in the end, your resources are limited. So you are going to do the things you are most motivated to do. Improving software usability apparently simply doesn't rank that high.

    On the other hand, I have to agree with other posters that usability depends on your users (give me programmable interfaces over GUIs any day, but I know others have the opposite preference) and that a lot of open source software actually does very well as far as usability is concerned.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:Motivation by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      (give me programmable interfaces over GUIs any day, but I know others have the opposite preference)

      The two aren't mutually-exclusive.

      One of the greatest crimes of OS X was downplaying the use of AppleScript and AppleEvents in GUI applications. In Macintosh System 7, 8, or 9, virtually all applications supported AppleEvents, and therefore could be scripted for any purpose and using many different languages.

      In addition, because of the design of AppleEvents (applications sending events to themselves as a result of UI interactions), macros could be "recorded" and re-used by even inexperienced users. Because applications kept a detailed dictionary of all AppleEvents they accepted, entire workflows could be created with nothing more than AppleScript Editor.

      But, like everything else in Classic Mac OS, the NeXT guys who took over saw no value to it and trashed the whole technology. *sigh*

  78. solution by kipman725 · · Score: 1
    man "program_name_here"

    without quotes

    Eg. man emacs

    1. Re:solution by kipman725 · · Score: 1

      replying to myself because I just RTFA; how can a man who uses 16pt font wasting 2/3 of the page involving lots of scroll comment on usability.

    2. Re:solution by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      You can use the quotes if you want. No problem.

  79. Re: Usability of Free Software by CobaltBlueDW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why go through the trouble after your initial effort, if there is no advantage? A lot of free software comes about because of the need, or the personal interest. But once both of those are satisfied, there is no reason to enhance the program.

    Comparing Socialism to Open Source software is an insult to both. Open Source developers are philanthropists, which explains why they would go through the trouble just as they would go through the initial effort. Open Source development is not supposed to be about personal gain. I know few people have a strong grasp of such selfless concepts, and so many misconceptions can be rooted to that fact. The real issue is that of priority and time management. No Open Source project is developed with the initial goal of developing a strong user interface. At best the interface is the secondary goal, because an interface without a function is not a program. The goals of the main developers may not match the goals of the market, and since the market has no DIRECT influence over the goals of the developers, these goals may never sync. The Open Source solution to this is, "I you want it, make it." and the flaws inherent to time management now take hold. Even if I want a feature added to an Open Source application, and have the ability to do so, stepping into an Open Source project is no small feet. Since the developers do not put your concerns above their own concerns, and since you do not wish to invest the time to handle your own concerns, your concerns to not get met. Basically it comes down to two things. One, often Open Source projects to not make it easy enough for prospective developers to gain and utilize an active interest. Two, beggars can not be choosers.

  80. add wireless drivers (for usb & internal anten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that would pretty much do it for us.

  81. Here some solutions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First of all, good to see you talking about usability. Any talks about improving software should be stimulated.

    Let's get back helping you software engineers, designing better interfaces. Perhaps you have heard of Agile or extreme programming; making use cases. This makes you think about what you are going to build and with a target audience in mind. If you want feedback about your plans and goals, talk about potential users about your ideas. These are really fundamental basics. Usability is not a flavor you dip your software in afterwards.

    Cowards' hints:

    - Investigate the "market"; what are competitors, or products alike and what is there to improve for you? With other words, what's your contribution or added value?

    - Structure code: seperating code from GUI code

    - There are styleguides out there your users are used to. Be consistent!

    - Involve other disciplines, e.g. (graphical, interaction) designers, psychologist (human factors) etc from start

    - Agile method makes use of short time periods (2 weeks) to show your result to stake holders (who represent users) and let's your adjust/redesign/refocus/continue ;)

    - If you really starting a new project, read parts of ISO's on usability (ISO 9241, ISO TR 18529, etc)

    - Google for interaction designers. They are growing in numbers, contact them to get involved! If your idea is good, I'm sure you get help.

  82. Bah! Got that wrong. by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    "\"Designers\" who can't code have absolutely no business \"working\" in software."

    I'd say it's the other way around: coders who can't design have absolutely no business working in software.

    Design, including the GUI, is an important part of making software successful and coders, who think they are the real heroes, are far too quick to discount it.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  83. I Agree. by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    I agree.

    Some other things that get stuck in my crawl:

    - If you can't solder integrated components onto a motherboard, you shouldn't be allowed to program

    - If you can't fix a piston engine, you shouldn't be allowed to drive

    - If you can't write your own movie scripts, you shouldn't be allowed to act

    - If you can't build your own lunar rover, you shouldn't be allowed to drive one around the moon

    - If you don't develop your own film, you shouldn't be allowed to shoot photography

    - If you can't build a brick wall, you shouldn't be allowed to pour design buildings

    - If you can't sing, you shouldn't be allowed to play drums

    Design is a set of skills, just as programming is, and it can lend a lot to the process, and is noticeable when absent. The fact many programmers think coding skill makes up for their lack of design and human factors knowledge is ridiculous.

    The best design tool in the world is a blank piece of 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Learn to use it.

  84. I'll answer that... by speedtux · · Score: 1

    I can answer that as soon as you can tell me how to fix the poor usability of commercial applications. Windows, OS X, and the application software for those systems have some really serious usability problems as well.

    In fact, Gnome and KDE at least have an excuse: many of their usability problems are problems they inherited when cloning Windows and OS X. What excuse do Microsoft and Apple have?

  85. Functionality first, usability thereafter by amn108 · · Score: 1

    I for one think that free software often lacks in usability, because obviously as development resources are limited, in the world of ever evolving technologies, keeping functionality at par is a higher priority in any project than making the functionality easily accessible to the end user.

    1. Re:Functionality first, usability thereafter by Shados · · Score: 1

      And, as many people have posted already (including some developers themselves), to most programmers, coding functionality is a heck of a lot more interesting to your average programmer (especially with the current state of programming training, which is almost exclusively raw computer science), so most projects can't even get people who -want- to add usuability, nevermind have time to do it.

      There's a reason most of the usuable pieces of free software are those with big corporate backing (Firefox comes to mind...)

    2. Re:Functionality first, usability thereafter by amn108 · · Score: 1

      True. In parts...

      It is not the corporate backing that contributes to usability, IMO. FOSS does not only attract programmers, it also attracts designers. And nobody asks programmers to develop user interfaces, in fact the whole point is they did not touch UI design in the first place. I don't want hackers and geeks of all shoddy and nerdy kinds, as successful at coding as they may be, touch my user interface. Let UI designers do their job.

      On the other hand, if a project has one member, it most likely is a programmer (who would also call himself project lead and UI and graphic designer). That is the regrettable part of it.

      It is therefore irrelevant what is more interesting to your average programmer - the coding or the UI design. He or she should indeed stick to coding - that which they are best at. What is relevant is that maybe it is smart idea to use less programmers and more UI designers. The coding power does not scale linearly with amount of programmers, but lack of a UI designer is what this discussion is all about, IMO.

    3. Re:Functionality first, usability thereafter by Shados · · Score: 1

      There's a -lot- less designers attracted by open source than there are programmers... to the extent that, yes, programmers have to do UI design (not just in Open Source, but in most smaller scale commercial projects too, especially internal business software projects).

      A lot of FOSS projects are affected by this, especially, again, smaller ones... If a project has less than 10 developers (which, if all of the devs are good, is more than enough for a medium to even semi-large scale project, sometimes), its almost sure that there's no designer in the bunch, or if there's one, its Joe-Blow Peanut Gallery with a pirate copy of photoshop that does design work on the side to complement his walmart job (I'm exagerating, of course, please don't kill me).

      And it shows. The amount of FOSS projects that have UI designs that can rival even recent Microsoft projects (and thats not a very high goal to reach) is minimal. Compared to the amount of projects that can rival in raw code quality? Its no contest.

  86. They shouldn't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And it's not obvious how else usability specialists should help out.'"

    They shouldn't, Fuck them pseudo experts of a mythical science.

  87. Everything but the obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He clutches at every imaginable straw but fails to mention to obvious: economics. People can't eat and write great free software as well. Every 'free' software project that isn't harder to install, manage or with a less usable UI than the commercial competition is sponsored, and is a defacto commercial project anyway.

    FS programmers need to get over the idea that's there's something wrong or evil about being paid for your work. Getting paid means you can do a better job.

  88. Might be the wording... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With my first major contribution to an open source project, the author essentially said "patches welcome", but he said it differently:

    "I would definitely consider a patch that did that."

    And, as I kept talking about it, but not actually sending it in -- my monkeypatch was pretty low-quality, and it'd take a weekend to polish it:

    "I'm really starting to like this syntax of yours."

    So, I was actually encouraged -- it wasn't confrontational, it was encouraging.

    So, just as I would tell Person X not to simply say "This sucks!", but to offer a helpful suggestion, I would also tell anyone who would respond to think about how to help them get it implemented.

    So, for example, if someone's a designer, but not a programmer, and you've got a programmer who you know wants to contribute, but he's not really sure what to work on, hook the two up. Or, with your example:

    Why don't you do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you? If you can't do either of those, why don't you contribute documentation, mockups, or something else that's not technical but is still useful?

    Why don't you offer these up in a FAQ or guidelines somewhere, and mention them in your stock response? Simply saying "patches are welcome" is actually unhelpful, unless you can write a patch -- and even then, it simply comes across as standoffish.

    It's the difference between "I can't bake that for you, but here's a recipe, and I can sell you some of the ingredients," and simply saying "Do it yourself."

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  89. What the hell is he talking about here? by argent · · Score: 1

    Free Software has a long and healthy tradition of "show me the code". But when someone points out a usability issue, this tradition turns into "patches welcome", which is unhelpful since most designers aren't programmers. And it's not obvious how else usability specialists should help out.

    What the hell is he talking about? What's the distinction he's trying to draw between "Show me the code" and "Patches welcome"? I honestly don't get it.

  90. You need a champion by ghoti · · Score: 1

    Completely agree. What OS projects need is a UI champion: somebody who is well respected as a coder and who takes it upon him/herself to pick up these UI complaints and makes them a priority. I guess the article describes something similar, but it talks about the project leader. A UI lead could be different from the technical lead though.

    The problem is that few such people exist. Most OS programmers are fairly hardcore coders who don't care much about users with a different background (this can also be seen nicely in the discussion here). Folks who can program and are more interested in UI (or UI designers to begin with) aren't typically the people who want to spend day and night coding, and so they don't typically contribute to projects.

    --
    EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
    1. Re:You need a champion by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Blah, what usability experts who can't code need is some basic people skills. Find the people who can help you achieve what you want to achieve, make it happen and stop being martyrs.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:You need a champion by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      mpt is hired by Canonical to do exactly this. A few years ago he wrote a brief summary of what he thought was wrong, and cataloged the resulting progress in the next release. This is a guy who knows how to do that. I do agree that he'd be better served by writing to the public more than once a year though.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

  91. Re:Usability expert with a (little) bit of free ti by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

    The KDE project is always looking for usability experts. More specifically, I would love a usability expert to have a look at the KDE System Monitor (task manager thing). I'm more than happy to implement changes.

  92. A developer responds... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does a developer evaluate the ability of a designer? When lead developers promote other developers (i.e. to having access to the tree), they can do so based off of experience with how well those persons patches are and how dedicated they have shown themselves to working on the project. The UI is a different beast.

    Programmers generally cannot tell who is a good designer and who isn't, making it difficult to even pick the first UI designer who can extend the network of UI people. Add to that the problem that UI folk generally even come to a project only once the project has gained attention. At this point, there's already a lot of work done on it.

    His solution is to document design first - great. Now tell that to the hundreds of software projects that have been started. And relying on developers to create those documents is foolhardy for the same reason that using them to create a usable interface is - there are designers and there are coders.

    Also, the documentation suggestion and user-test suggestion is time consuming, and he acknowledges that. However, he fails to account for the reality that few projects are planned to be big. They begin as really small scale projects that grow. So the documentation can only even begin after enough interest develops (i.e. the original coder rarely has the interest in doing it the proper way - remember your claim that it's generally a scratch an itch problem). The user-testing is an even bigger problem. Who's going to fund this? Didn't you just claim that the users tend to be developers themselves? So how are you planning on doing these tests without any money?

    His modularity comment is incorrect. He's arguing that layering a GUI on top of an existing text UI (i.e. ls, etc) produces a bad result. Of course when you start layering UI (especially UI targetting different interface capabilities) you're going to get unusable results. It's not the fault of the people who wrote the ls tool - it's the fault of the GUI developers. You should be using the API they did for your GUI.

    The more important critique here is that usually the code isn't modularized enough into a backend library providing the functionality and an executable front-end responsible for the user interaction. Most traditional unix command-line tools aren't complex enough to require a separate library, although there might be some that should be split.

    However, its many times easier to write code that parses output from command-line tools than to write the code to perform the function - laziness is the problem here.

  93. Hear hear + Want to improve? Listen to bug tracker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was going to post pretty much the same thing. The problems that free software once had concerning usability are long gone. The real question now is 'how are we going to make it better than Windows or the Mac'. And for that it is vitally important that it is easy to find the bugtracker, post to it without requiring registration, and take what people say there seriously. Especially the last part is important, as it happens way too often that people simply get ignored. As an example, last time I checked, the Russian version of OpenOffice didn't come with a Russian spellchecker. This was entered in the bugtracker, which attracted a lot of newbies who didn't know how to vote and posted reply's a la '2' instead, and just for this the bug was closed 'willnotfix' if I recall correctly, even though the bug demonstrably exists and has by far the most votes. This is just one example, but things like that happen all the time, it's almost like the developers care more about bureaucracy than about improving their software. Anyway, sorry for the little rant. As I said, free software usability has greatly improved.

  94. My two cents' worth... by ndb · · Score: 1
    I did RTFA, and the preceding entries in his blog, and my question is how much of a problem is usability in free software? Also, I didn't see any proof, simply a statement. I often find a problem with users, not usability, people who apparently don't know copy-and-paste, even a bank teller this last spring. An interface requiring any amount of thought will be beyond some people, and there simply isn't any way of accommodating them. I also have known people in an office who couldn't copy-and-paste, or didn't know how to use a function in an Excel spreadsheet. There is also a question of why some users suck, and I could spend a good deal of time giving examples of such.

    living with Ubuntu - http://brownn.wordpress.com/

  95. Define Usability by PPH · · Score: 1

    I certainly hope its not based upon the presence of a "Start" button in the lower left corner of the desktop or Mr. Clippy.

    Seriously, what's the baseline for evaluating it? How is the analysis affected by the target user group? For example, I'd expect that an FEA application to be totally unusable by non-engineers. They would be unfamiliar with the various objects and methods involved and, as a result, the layout of application menus would make no sense to them.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  96. #0, Separate Interface From Code by lennier · · Score: 1

    I think the biggest single usability problem is that our current coding tools and 'best practices' force interface design and low-level code to be merged together in a big monolithic box called 'the application'. This is a technological dead end.

    Increasingly, what I do on a computer is NOT 'run applications', but 'browse data and construct new data sets'. But the tools used for 'application design' are locked into a developer-user separation that gives us this negative feedback cycle: coders can't design, interface designers can't code, and users whose data and machine it actually is and know what works for them have no way to modify the design of either.

    Find a way to SAFELY separate 'interface' from 'internals' at every possible level so that the USER can tweak the interface to 'scratch their own itch', and you'll see an explosion of open-source interface design similar to what happened when the Web appeared.

    A key I think is switching from imperative, even OO programming, to a dataflow mindset. Ted Nelson is on the right track with Xanadu and 'applitudes', but he can't coherently describe his vision and nobody is listening. And he's patented his ideas. Pay attention to him, filter out the crap, then try to work around his patents.

    Look at Cells, FrTime, Flapjax, and spreadsheets, then generalise that model. That's the missing layer we need to have instead of things like COM. It might be possible to write something like that as a layer over D-BUS, expose *all* data in a system from the filesystem to mouse clicks as *fully* scriptable dataflow events, then add a *thin* GUI layer that lets anyone at runtime construct and run an 'interface' from a small text file that aggregates such events into widgets.

    If you want, then add a thin GUI builder which lets you construct such a text file by pointing and clicking, but it's not necessary (and it's necessary that ALL functionality exposed by a GUI layer ALSO be available to a non-imperative, composable scripting language).

    Then you'll have something which could seriously take over the world: a Web-like dataflow fabric which can construct runtime pipelines of events and filters and make tiny, user-specific 'tasklets' much like accounting types build spreadsheets.

    Even the simplest of 'users' would then be able to be 'interface designers' in the same way a file manager allows anyone to be a librarian. Let people publish such tasklets freely to the Net (like RSS aggregators or Google mashups), and you've solved the interface problem.

    The key is to make all your data-processing widgets fully composable, which means to make them pure-functional, which is what existing OO frameworks aren't.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    1. Re:#0, Separate Interface From Code by tucuxi · · Score: 1

      I think the biggest single usability problem is that our current coding tools and 'best practices' force interface design and low-level code to be merged together in a big monolithic box called 'the application'. This is a technological dead end.

      Not according to the article, which states that OSS software usually insists in clearly separated and switchable interface and backends.

      On a separate note, most users are not avid interface tweakers. True, nobody provides the tools. But such tools would be hard to build indeed. Problems include:

      • Most applications are not designed to be externally scripted, since this would require hard decisions on how to share the data with the caller (formatting, locks, callbacks), what minimal environment to load, and so on. Since there is little perceived demand in exchange for a very substantial effort, developers stay clear of providing such interfaces.
      • Externally-scriptable applications would need some kind of unified, machine-readable documentation standard. Think end-user-readable javadoc-autocomplete. It should be easy to learn what verbs and adjectives you can use.
      • For a graphical script builder, documentation would not be so important, as you would be capable of directly interacting with the application. This is no mean feat, since the relationship between 'things this app can provide or accept' and widgets is not one-to-one. How do you plan to fix that?
      • Complexity scales *fast*. The moment the magical scripting tool allows you to build truly complex things (and variables, some math, conditionals and loops are enough to go Turing-complete), it will no longer be capable of hand-holding a user that strides into deep water. Think of debugging infinite loops or poorly performing scripts...
  97. You get the users you design for by PuppaSmirk · · Score: 1

    As a UI designer by trade I always like to throw things like the iPod, Google, Firefox, World of Warcraft and Nintendo Wii into any argument about the validity of designing for your users. These products success against their competitors speak volumes about the impact of a good user experience (the user experience is a vastly more complex beast than just the UI, but this is what usability is all about - designing the environment to try and improve the user experience).

    Yup these are mostly commercial products, probably because commercial products have a vested interest in continued use by their user base as well as growing their user base. Not to mention usually having more funding to be able to pay for user experience professionals.

    As has already been mentioned numerous times, most open source/free software is written by the developer for the developer. This is fine as long as the people working on the project are happy with a niche user base. If you are developing something for yourself and making it available to others then more power to you.

    There is always exceptions to the rule usually where need or cost outweighs usability.

    If, however, your are looking to grow your project and see widespread adoption/interest, you are much more likely to see this happen if your interface appeals to a wider audience. Of course you shouldn't design for 'everyone' but you target the user types that you want your software to appeal to.

  98. They're not far behind. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Most free software is inspired by not-so-free software, and software in general has poor usability. Once mainstream software becomes highly usable, free software will too, since they will clone the good out of it.

    As it is, there is not much to copy or, as one might put it, "be inspired from."

  99. Who know about UI?? by Darksair · · Score: 1

    Most free softwares are command-line based. I don't think "designers" can do any thing fancy about it. For GUI programs, I thinks the most vital thing is to assemble a universal GUI guideline including all widget libraries such as GTK+, QT, and Tk for free software.

    1. Re:Who know about UI?? by Darksair · · Score: 1

      Oops, lots of typos here. Sorry guys~

    2. Re:Who know about UI?? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      For GUI programs, I thinks the most vital thing is to assemble a universal GUI guideline including all widget libraries such as GTK+, QT, and Tk for free software.

      Nobody agrees to the guidelines. Even Microsoft and Apple don't follow their own guidelines to begin with.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    3. Re:Who know about UI?? by Darksair · · Score: 1

      M$ doesn't, but Apple actually does, in very most cases.

  100. The most important thing for usability is: ... by chris_sawtell · · Score: 1
    The most important thing for high grade usability is: Consistency!

    Ok, here we go:

    1. Almost all applications seem to want to use the arrows in the reverse direction to that which is natural. Press the down-arrow key in most text and image display programs, and the text and picture moves UP! That's the exact opposite of what one would expect.
    2. The mouse roller wheel is frequently used to change the size of the text and pictures. Lovely, except that moving the top of the wheel towards you in an attempt to simulate "dragging" the images towards you to give you a closer view has exactly the reverse effect.
    3. Some Linux distributions follow the Windows default of requiring two LH mouse clicks to launch an application, whereas others require only one. It's absolutely infuriating!!! Bill's software allows you to select the way you want the mouse clicks to behave. Ok it's in an absolutely non-intuitive place, about 5 clicks down in "Folder Behavour" or some such. But at least it's there.
    4. Most of the browsers use CTRL and - or = to change the size of the font. Many other programs require CTRL and SHIFT and = to increase the font size. Another: "It's absolutely infuriating!!!"
    5. Five years or so ago Gimp used to have a really easy to use and remember set of menus and short cuts. Now the usability wonks have had their wicked ways with it and it's more or less UNusable.
    6. The majority of programs appear to have been designed by hawk-eyed puppies who default the font size used to display text on the screen to approximately 8 or 9 points - the same size as that in a telephone directory. Increase the font size to something approaching readability and the text either, disappears completely, gets truncated, or falls over the edge of the text-box which is supposed to surround it.

    I could go on and on, but I won't. Surfice it to say:- In other words PLEASE can we have editable and transportable .rc files for the Desktop environments, the Window Managers, and the major apps. which set up the menus and shortcut keys, and please make sure they are consistent across Distros, Window-Managers, and as well as the programs themselves. Yes I am prepared to do my share of the slog to get this sorted, because it's actually really important.

  101. Usability is itself the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real problem is that "usability" is a giant vague umbrella term encompassing several sub terms that, in some cases, have contradictory goals.

    For example, consider efficiency of use versus learnability. In my opinion, vi is /very/ efficient, and it's quite obvious that that's its focus; however, it's pretty far down on the learnability scale: all you get when you first use it (in general) is a pile of tildes on the screen and some cryptic text along the last line. It doesn't help that its control scheme and modal model are different to everything else ever made.

    On the other hand, consider gedit (or most modern GUI-based editors): learnability is very high since each one is fairly similar to the last. Sure, there's different keybinding, a different menu layout, but at least those are discoverable with a little poking around. Efficiency-wise, compared to vi at least, it's going to lose: eventually you're going to need to move your hand to the mouse to do something faster than with the keyboard.

    In the end, using two input devices is almost assuredly going to be less efficient than one, but the keyboard alone (coupled with the 80x25 "resolution") doesn't engage one visually/spatially, which is practically the only method of teaching a computer has.

    Essentially, vi has the learning de-coupled from its usage, which is exactly the opposite in gedit, where they're strongly coupled (e.g., the toolbar buttons that tell you what they do with their labels, then verbosely tell you what they do with their tooltips, then illustrate to some extent what they do with their icons). The two goals and their respective methods are, I think, fundamentally opposed to one another.

    And this is why there are so many pundits of the "usability" of open source software: when they say "usability", they really mean "learnability", which is only one aspect of the field. At the end of the day, it's just a preference: would you rather invest heaps of time in an application that's hard to learn but will ultimately make you more productive, or start with a medium level of productivity and have it capped near the end? It also depends on how often you'll be using the app: programmers spend 80% of their time in a text editor (or 100% if you're an emacs fan :), but a CD-burning app used once a month needs to be more learnable, since there's a good chance you'll be forgetting how to use it a little bit.

    The real problem is that you can't possibly know the learnability or (maximum) efficiency that an app is going to provide before using it.

  102. This guy needs a mod-up by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    I think this guy hit the nail on the head, and to GP:

    i'm glad those people are a minority, unfortunately for every one of those there are many who simply walk away silently. Personally, I think that's tragic, and I think the parent post outlines a proper compromise in regard to that kind of conflict.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  103. Definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is a definition that I heard years ago for Apple/Macintosh "computers". "A computer with training wheels you can't remove".

    Having used a few of the above machines, I have to agree.

    1. Re:Definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a definition that I heard years ago for Apple/Macintosh "computers". "A computer with training wheels you can't remove".
      Having used a few of the above machines, I have to agree.

      Funny, I'd think of them more as "computers with automatic transmission, power steering, A/C, and cruise control that you can't remove."

  104. Is it slash forward or slash back? by westlake · · Score: 1
    But what most people tend to forget is that there is a much larger pool of users that are not willing to memorize 200 commands, and read man pages for days and days in order to just use their computer
    .

    "Oh, god, what do I do now?"

    There is this simple fear of making a mistake. The fear of what will happen when you hit "Return." The command line argument can be complex, arcane and unforgiving.

  105. Actually by dexomn · · Score: 1

    It is not an issue of usability, but an issue of the users.

  106. Import other designs (and how to make that easier) by Provoostenator · · Score: 1

    I recently created a really simple website. I am fully aware of the fact that I do not have design skills, but I do consider design important. So what did I do? I simply copied the entire design of another website and replaced the content and code with my own.

    This shows how important it is to be clear about software and design license issues, but that is not my point here.

    At the moment, it is often not easy enough to copy good design. Design should be as easy to copy as it is to import any other 'library'.

    I think the problem is that people don't look at design as a reusable component. People are happy to use libraries when it comes to login systems, connecting to API's, database access, etc. Design should be treated the same way.

    Good examples out there:
    * Wordpress templates
    * Skins in general (but many developers fail to pick a good default for their product)
    * The default good looks of Ruby on Rails projects

    But we need more. It should be much easier to copy good design elements from other software, without having to do much hacking.

    In fact, it should be so easy to change the look of a program that designers can do it without learning too much coding.

  107. The problem isn't just user-useability... by solios · · Score: 1

    .... it's BILLING.

    It's one thing for an app to be useable/useful/have a good gooey. Firefox is a good example of all three.

    Then there's the horric case of The GIMP - a great paint application. Seriously. The MASSIVE fail point? Linux users bill it as OMG PHOTOSHOPS. As opposed to OMG SUPAR PAINT APP. Gimp is about as Photoshop as an internal combustion engine is a nuclear reactor. The common perception problem is that to just about EVERYONE, Image Manipulation == Photoshop. Which really isn't the case. The GIMP is much more of a painting application along the lines of Corel Draw or Painter.... but the programming-based userbase is deeply sucked into the idea that pixel-pushing === photoshop. Hence the GIMP being marketed as a Photoshop-alike, when in reality the applications have almost nothing to do with each other.

    My point, ultimately, is that a huge amount of FOSS is great... but is indirectly crippled by misrepresentation. If you pick up the GIMP because it's been billed as FOSS Photoshop and get burned - and never use it again - the fault isn't the application. It's the advocates failure to understand the specific needs of the targeted market.

  108. Freedom is wonderful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aside from being free to modify the software to make it suit your critical gaze, or pay someone else to, you are also free to not use it at all! Or even better, you are free to print the source and stuff it up your whiny fucking ass!

  109. Compared to what ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Poor usability in FOSS is a myth like many others. "Usability" is most often just compared against Windows or Apple and not made as a study of the subject: ie. "it doesn't do it like Windows so it sucks".
    That is not USABILITY!

    My father (aged 70) got a SuSE some months ago... he was very sceptical... 5 days later he called and asked why people pay for Windows. He just uses the web, e-mail, word processing, instant messaging and skype. ...and since he nedde multilanguage approach (at least Polish, Danish, German, Spanish, Portuguese and French) he loves Linusx where he doesn't have to change the keyboard layout to use a different language.
    Usability... yeah, tell me about it...

  110. Doesn't sound like constructive criticism to me by mrjb · · Score: 1

    The article sounds more like a rant than like constructive criticism to me. You can do a lot about the usability of your software by providing visual clues, making your program look like existing programs and raising CLEAR (parameterized) error messages if you really need to- to name a few things. But the least you can do is ask some non-tech coworkers to take a look at your program and see where they get stuck, then fix it. It's really not that hard.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  111. Don't agree on some points by zokier · · Score: 1

    Taking point by point:
    "Weak incentives for usability."
    I think that the fact that afaik most free software is written for programmers themselves provides quite an incentive to make the program nice to use.

    "Few good designers."
    Agreed.

    "Design suggestions often aren&#226;&#8364;(TM)t invited or welcomed."
    Partly agree. Look at awesomebar. Its hated mostly because its new(among other things). In more community-driven developement it wouldnt be accepted. Imho smaller/less radical design changes are accepted more easily.

    "Usability is hard to measure."
    Partially agree. Usability is partially subjective, and hard to measure. But some aspects of usability can easily measured: how many mouseclicks takes to accomplish some task etc.

    "Coding before design."
    Disagree. Because most of projects evolve from smaller to larger software(featurewise) unpredictably, designing interface before coding is almost impossible, as its not known what features it needs to accomodate. Making too rigid design decisons too early asks for trouble when new featurs should be added, but the design isn't flexible enough to accomodate them.

    "Too many cooks."
    Agree on larger projects.

    "Chasing tail-lights."
    Especially agree. FOSS-developers try too hard to get all users to use their software, and are willing to bend towards mainstream software, insted of making software to themselves and doing what feels right.

    "Scratching their own itch."
    Especially don't agree. This is the main point where i don't agree. Free software has no need to grab markets and all users. Why is all ui design concentrated on making software easy to use for new users, instead of making software easy to use for power users. Right tool for the right job, noob software for noob users, and poweruser-software for powerusers. IMHO Linux and free software in general needs to get back the 'from hackers to hackers'-attitude, because thats what we do best. Quoting:
    "So software that&#226;&#8364;(TM)s supposed to be for general use[...]"
    Not all software is supposed to be for general use. I make software for my own use, and thats enough. I dont need no stinking users.... :)

    "Leaving little things broken."
    If it hinders usability it will be fixed, if the reward is greater than work needed to fix it.

    "Placating people with options."
    And this is bad thing because? Quote:
    "The number, obscurity, and triviality of such preferences ends up confusing ordinary users"
    Again. 'Ordinary users' don't matter. And making good default settings, and showing only relevant options in main ui(about:config vs Preferences-dialog) relieves this problem a lot.
    Cases: Awesome-bar. Start-menu in Vista(I atleast would like to have option to use XP-like start-menu).

    "Fifteen pixels of fame."
    "Design is high-bandwidth, the Net is low-bandwidth."
    Agreed.

    "Release early, release often, get stuck."
    Just add configuration options, and depreciate them if necessary.

    "Mediocrity through modularity."
    Imho modularity can't be blamed for bad design.

    "Gated development communities."
    This one I don't understand. If print-dialog sucks, identify the project it belongs to and complain there. It will be fixed or not, depending on other conditions, like ones above.

  112. KDE by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

    KDE4 has great technology and some great designers. They are open towards new ideas and concepts and seem to be able to think outside of the box. This is why I like KDE4 so much. One thing that they did was a major cleanup of the interface so you no longer have +100 buttons per program. Take a look at KDE Raptor and you will realise that KDE4 is going to bring major usability innovation for the enduser.

    I have learned and used a lot of GUIs (Windows, Mac, Gnome, Fluxbox, Blackbox, IceWM, Openbox, E16, E17, JWM, KDE3, XFCE4, and some more) and KDE4 (not previous KDE's) is the first interface I really came to like to the extend that I will be making it my standard GUI.

    --
    Here be signatures
  113. Intermediate users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alan "About Face" Cooper's book "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" deals with this topic. Its main claim is that software developers simply cannot write good user interfaces.

    Why? Because programmers are EXPERT users. Thus they tend to design interfaces intended for other expert users. Those interfaces are very plain, give out information that is only easily available, hard to remember how to use, but get the job done fast and effectively. (Once you learn how to use the tool).

    When you let marketing in, they want to push a lot of NEWBIE features like happy paper clip assistant, set-up wizards, help files appearing automatically when user invokes an action etc. These are helpful for newbies and first-timers, but tend to get annoying very fast.

    Most users - according to Cooper - tend to get over the newbie status quite fast, but will never reach expert level. They will use the software to get their job done and will remain as INTERMEDIATE users. And this is where the problem is: software in general is not designed an intermediate user in mind.

    Developers and designers should ask themselves "what are the TYPICAL USE CASES that my application will be used?" and design around that.

    If a typical use case for an application is to print out text, then do add print icon to the toolbar. Other features can remain, but they can be "hidden" under menus.

    Since we all love to hate Microsoft, take a look at default buttons on Word 2003 toolbar:

    - New Document
    - Open Document
    - Save Document
    - Permissions - Information Rights Management (client installation wizard start)
    - E-mail
    - Print
    - Print Preview
    - Spelling and Grammar
    - Research
    - Cut
    - Copy
    - Paste
    - Format Painter
    - Undo
    - Redo
    - Insert Hyperlink
    - Tables and borders (shows floating toolbar)
    - Insert table
    - Insert Microsoft Excel worksheet
    - Columns (formats how many columns there will be from that point forward)
    - Drawing (shows drawing toolbar)
    - Show/Hide unprintable characters
    - Zoom level
    - Help
    - Read
    - Another help toolbar with text "type a question for help"

    And that was just the first toolbar. In addition to that Word is displaying a formatting toolbar.

    How many of these functions are TYPICAL? Document map? Document permissions? Research? Two separate help widgets? None of these really. So why are they on the screen eating up attention space?

    Microsoft actually did rather good job in re-designing Office 2007's user interface.

  114. A usability tip... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usability is inversely proportional to the number of mouse clicks for the user desired feature!

  115. Stubborn by Lord+Lode · · Score: 1

    There is sometimes also a certain stubborness preventing usability, and I refer here specifically to GTK and The Gimp and their visions about MDI. Some people just don't like having every toolbar and painting being a separate window that has to be managed separatly on your desktop, and there's nothing they do about it, nor anything in GTK to even be able to fix it.

  116. two words. and then heaps more. by aybiss · · Score: 1

    usability standards

    the reason humans will never reach the stars is because of our shit software. we'll fall some number of man hours short somehow, and it will be equal to the number of hours someone spent clicking a dialog asking if you really clicked the last dialog or the software did. meanwhile all the guys writing the good software (which could have saved us all) will fail after spending hours making it so that their apps can update itself online just like 90% of all software does these days, missing some other breakthrough. the guy creating the standard to make it so programmers and users alike can get more done (which could have saved all of us) will lose his work when MS word does one of its formatting tricks. his manager will miss the meeting about it (which was our very last chance) because Outlook's version of getting attention is to leave a dialog that won't f*ck off on your desktop all day. the aliens (who can see our possible future vs the one we have) must be laughing their arses off.

    there are no standards for commercial software, and its pretty unfair to insinuate that OSS is uniquely unusable when the world's most widely used spreadsheet package still asks you to save changes to documents it has opened in read only mode. oh yeah and if you cancel closing one document (because you aren't sure what it thinks you've changed, if anything), all the documents you HAD successfully f*cked off will reappear. one can only wonder what sort of development and quality feedback process (if any) contributed to such a situation being unfixed in a piece of software that is what, 20 years old?

    so in the face of that why is OSS in particular suffering from usability issues? too many people implementing different ways of storing user preferences, different ways of opening and closing a program, different ways of giving software the ability to update itself - it leads to mass confusion for users and programmers and slows development. as a windows developer i can't imagine the confusion deciding to put my preferences in /etc, /usr/etc, /var. not that we don't have a similar situation on windows but we have IDEs and languages so closely coupled to the one OS that you will get exceptions from putting things in the 'wrong' place, if you somehow missed the fact the API will do it all for you in the first place. i hate to say it but this is where we need to go. in this way the Java VM was still one of the best things we ever got going. if dotnet was cross-platform, we'd be *much* more sorted, but still a long way off.

    we have some great languages now, but we need to go beyond visual studio's ability to create a hello world app vs a hello world webpage, and turn it into something that really allows programmers to start writing their app, rather than all the little things that make a program into an app (that then bind you to ways of having to do things that you hadn't thought of). and these ways of doing things need to be as standardised as their end appearance. gigabyte easytune anyone? want a 4x4 on your desktop in order to read a few system monitors? did you open the program to read the monitors or see the 4x4? oh yeah, have fun getting rid of the monstrosity, because who knows where they've hidden the close button.

    there are fabulous libraries for doing some the things i mentioned, but even deciding on one to use and then making it work with your code is just too tedious. i hate to say it but sometimes having one way of doing things rammed down your throat is better in the long run. but we need to go further and have accepted ways of doing things, both as programmers and as users.

    standards that govern the way software interacts with you would increase productivity on computers worldwide. that means absolutely everyone. it shouldn't be acceptable that happening to be hitting a key while typing in one program can lose you work in another program - why aren't popup dialogs banned? because noone is there to ban them. someone needs to kic

    --
    It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
  117. Usability comes from usable tools, right tools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everybody can make good useable software all by themselves. No degree needed, no teams like Mac OS X, Windows, Gnome, KDE. Not even a small team. Case in point, just look at the mounds of well designed freeware and shareware for the Mac, most of it produced by a single person.

    How do the one-man shops do it? Good tools for the Mac, trivial installation, easy to use. And good attitude, in the sense that even the dorkiest software writer like me just knows a program icon and a GUI screen at minimum are expected, or no Mac user will even look at it (even if 99.9% of the work is actually done by underlying Unix command line programs). So we complain for a week, think for a day, do it in an hour. Even if my icon looks awful, or my GUI layout begs for its shame to end, it is a placeholder and plea for help rolled into one. If the software has the least merit, believe me, some kind soul will take pity and send over a nice replacement. Stuff it into its place, add a thank you line in the About box, and everybody thinks it was my brilliant work!

    Seriously, that is how it mostly works, no different from the way translations (localization) now happen all the time for free software. No need for you to even say "patches welcome" or "you are free to make your own changes" or even "please help!!!".

    Yes, I know usability can get much more complex than a single icon and screen. The big or complex ones are few and far between. Worry about them next year.

    Gnu/Linux equivalent tools? I dare you to get the tools installed and actually working. Disagree? Even if you find the right one among the fabled 20,000 choices, even if you know how to install arbitrary Gnu/Linux software which many do not, even if you are able to get that software to work which is often a living hell in itself, the persevering have yet to discover and experience THE TREATMENT described by FooBarWidget above.

    Okay, a bit of exaggeration about Gnu/Linux. That was yesterday. All the tools are there, the right packaging is happening, and other difficulties too are sorting themselves out. If the Mac and Windows geeks can do it, then surely nobody can believe that the Gnu/Linux geeks will be found wanting!

  118. Beware of Cougar by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

    I am a developer, I am also responsible for interviewing junior developers.

    If I found that someone I was interviewing had an attitude of "You accuse developers of being jerks, yet you're the one who started being a jerk. And then you expect them not behaving like jerks in front of you," even on "free" open source projects, I would consider them unsuitable for dealing with clients and potentially even other developers. Full stop. It doesn't matter if it is "for pay" or "for free."

    If I were to even consider hiring them, it would be because I have a position open in a back room that I can lock and that has a sign on it saying "beware of cougar." Then I could lock the "developer" in question back there and slide the occasional pizza under the door, and never have to worry about them seeing another human being.

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    1. Re:Beware of Cougar by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      So if I am a client, I can call you names, say that you suck, and keep harassing you while not giving you even one penny?

      Sure, I understand your position. But is it so unreasonable to assert that respect has to come from both sides? After all, there is this saying "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you". Suppose you knock on your neighbor's door. As soon as he opens the door, you tell him how big of an idiot he is and how he's lousy at doing his job. You do this several times. If after the first time (or if you're lucky, after several times) he becomes insulted and angry, you threaten not to hire him, what do you think he would think?

      Unfortunately this is exactly what's happening with OSS software: many people expect that all respect come from the side of developers and that they themselves don't have to show any respect at all.

    2. Re:Beware of Cougar by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

      I have had clients do or threaten to do all of the above.

      From there you seem to go off on a tangent and make some errant assumptions, so let's be clear.

      It seems to me that you don't understand that what I am talking about is the response "patches welcome" and its degree of utter unprofessionalism. Why, if the users are acting as rudely as you say, do you even give them the time of day?

      Even if customer acting rudely is no excuse for you to act rudely back. There are exactly two professional (or professional amateur) responses: a) A calm, rational response of one of the forms that others have pointed out (e.g., "I don't have time for that right now, but I'd gladly look at a patch," "It is on the queue, but that feature is a very low priority for me right now unless someone is willing to pay me for it," "I'm sorry, could you be more specific about what you mean by 'sucks?'") or b) Ignore it.

      So they don't respect you or your time? Try emphasizing the value of your time while not demeaning the value of theirs. Sniping back, caustically saying "patches welcome," etc are just escalating a situation that you have no need to escalate beyond stroking your own ego.

      Unless, of course, you don't mind being locked in a room with a "Beware of Cougar" sign outside.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  119. No, not really by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're suggestions are not likely to be all that good for fixing the design problems. A non-chemist can tell you that the floor cleaning solution doesn't work for them - and that may mean the solution sucks - and they can say "It should be able to do this" - but they can't tell you the way to solve the problem, they may be wrong as to what the problem is, and they may just be, period - wrong. Is that elitist?

    If any chemist had the attitude of some of us software nerds, he'd most certainly be counted as an elitist dick.

    Yes, a non-chemist can tell you that the floor cleaning solution doesn't do this or that. It's then your job to see exactly how it fails there, and if you can improve the formula, and if it's worth improving it. E.g., if it doesn't kill some germs, it's useless in a hospital. If it actually ends up a nutrient for a bunch of harmful germs, then you have an even bigger problem. If it's highly toxic or caustic, well, you've reduced its usefulness for a lot of situations. Etc.

    If you end up dismissing it as "unless you can tell me exactly what formula to use, and the exact manufacturing process for it, STFU" -- which, again, is an attitude quite common in software -- then you are an unhelpful and unprofessional dick.

    Ditto for any other industry. When MRSA appeared, the antibiotics industry set to try to find an antibiotic that kills them. They didn't go "if you can't make a better antibiotic yourself, STFU." Yes, probably the users didn't know _why_ Methicillin doesn't kill this strain of Staphylococcus Aureus, or how to fix it. Which is why they reported the problem and let the experts fix it. Otherwise they'd have just made their own medicine in the first place. And from there it's the expert's job to figure out the exact details and how to fix it.

    Your job is to take that, essentially, bug-report or change-request, and see what can be done about that. Sometimes nothing at all. Sometimes it's not a bug. But nevertheless, it's a piss-poor defense to expect that the user fixes _your_ bugs, and that only people who can fix it are allowed to offer feedback.

    And, look, I'm not saying that you shouldn't take pride in your work or skills. But more people need to realize that a bug report isn't an evil personal attack, nor trying to make you look bad, or anything. You don't need to get into an "well, _you_ can't even code that much, so STFU" counter-attack. Yes, you know more about programming than the user who filed that bug report. The knows it too. Otherwise he wouldn't need your tool or your help in the first place. Being helpful isn't some kind of loss of face, that's all I'm saying.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:No, not really by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 1

      You are ascribing things to my post that just aren't there. I'm not saying that you can't and/or shouldn't say "I don't like this about the interface" - or even make suggestions. I'm saying that there is actually skill, knowledge and talent that goes into good interface design, and most people don't have it. Therefore, while pointing out problems is GREAT (and it really is), and suggesting fixes might be marginally useful (if only to understand why the person is having a problem) - thinking that an average joe can provide the solution just as well as a trained interface designer is unlikely at best. Just like the average joe would be unable to pop into a chemist's lab and figure out how to make the cleaning solution work better. See what I'm saying?

  120. Perhaps new approach required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should designers contribute in the same way as coders? Design is not so much of a constant-effort requirement in a project. Perhaps a more successful approach would be to form a team of designers and enabling coders to help implement their examples and then have this team jump from project to project making design proposals/contributions before moving on to the next project.

    This approach would get around the "trust" issues that you raise through the community regard for the teams overall reputation.

  121. Make UI Consistent! Books always have past on one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make the UI Consistent!

    Books always have past on one side ( in English, that's on the left ),
    always have the New Stuff on the other side ( English, that's on the right ),

    yet NEARLY ALL apps I've been forced to use don't make the

    Cancel ( past-setting is good ) / Commit ( change, new-setting )

    arranged consistently!

    Makes me wish the coders would be forced to use a system where all apps used /dev/random
    to locate ALL UI elements,
    until the "get" it.

    Another that burns my ass ( and many many others, too ) is
    OO.o's
    "lets muck your data,
    but give you a little happyface,
    to tell you that we just did that"
    INSTEAD OF
    popping-up, and ASKING "do you want this automatism?"
    for any automatism that hasn't been OKed yet.
    ( this was reported as a bug years ago:
    they apparently *oppose* asking-first,
    permitting our data to ourselves )

    I hope their doctors do the same with their health-care / DNA-therapy.

    Consideration for our work would be a nice start,
    but enforced mucking it apparently makes some sh*t-head egos bigger.

    Cheers.

  122. usability != aesthetics by pbhj · · Score: 1

    I'm happy with the 'get it working first - then make it pretty' approach taken by most.

    Usability and aesthetics may be closely related for technically minded people as they generally appreciated ordered structures and find a (ie their personal) logical flow to be visually comfortable. But equating aesthetics and usability is plain wrong.

    Tiny example: You can make your "Yes / No" dialogs [sic] as pretty as you like but if you randomly switch the button positions and ask ambiguous questions, or don't indicate the outcomes, then your users are going to be very frustrated.

    Aside: On that point about logical flow - people will use your program in a different way to how you design it. I'm always fascinated when I watch other people using browsers (testing websites I've designed). They of course take different routes through the website, but just how folks use the browser differently is quite interesting itself.

  123. Too wordy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Article is too wordy & suffers from poor usability

  124. So this is a big surprise??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OSS is maintained by--let's face it--geeks. The fact is that geeks LIKE things complicated. Easy-to-use software is, well, too easy to use, and isn't a challenge to try to figure out. Where did Macs get the reputation as a "toy" computer? From geeks, who found it TOO easy to use to be fun for them.

    Geeks adapt much more quickly than the average bear to software that isn't particularly usable (i.e. Windows of any flavor). That's why OSS will, IMHO, never become really usable for the masses--because the vast majority of people who use it don't notice that it isn't usable!

  125. Design techniques I favour by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 1

    Things the help design in my not very humble opinion.

    1. If you are duplicating a commercial project then duplicate the interface unless you have good reason not to.

    Since much of usability is 'what you're used to' then this makes it easier to get people to switch.

    2. GUI and command line interface.

    Another poster pointed out that autocad has GUI and commandline interfaces.

    On NextStep you could usually do things either through a GUI or through a command line. The two weren't always the same -- e.g. it may take 3-4 commands to duplicate what was done in a wizard. The documentation for the commands was sparse. Much of this is true today for Mac OS X, but the command line documentation is even harder to find.

    Although confusing as hell for other reasons, the configuration package for IBM AIX had a neat feature: As you selected options in the configuration panel, it built the command line to do the same thing in a 1 line window near the top of the panel. For people who were trying to become wizards, this was a useful way to find out what command did what.

    3. Consistency, consistency, consistency.

    One of the nice things about macs is that once you start to get to know your way around, much of what you learned for one program translates to a similar function in another. Those things that most programs do, (Open a file, print, preferences) are usually in the same place every time. The layout deeper into the program is more variable.

    For those of you who worship the command line: Look at the huge variation even in the submission of options to the command line. E.g compare that of find, dd, rsync, and ls. This got me into trouble on my first sysadmin job. cp -i is interactive copy. rm -i is interactive remove. di -i must be interactive disk initialization.
    Nope. di was disk information. -i meant initialize. Fortunately it was a client machine, and had no user files on it. (I won't swear the program was di -- this was 20+ years ago on NextStep 2.0)

    Yesterday we had to help a friend set up his email on his new used Mac. Much confusion ensued before we discovered that the email account setup interface for Leopard and for Tiger are quite different. There may be a good reason for this change.

    One graphic design program I tried had numerical entries for some tools, drag and drop for some tools, and both for some tools. But in some cases with the both, it would show you the current numerical selection, but you couldn't change it, even though the widget appearance was no different from one that you could.

    The school where I have may day job uses a school information management system called renweb. It does some cool stuff, and collects a lot of information under one roof, with modules for grades, assignments, lesson plans. It's very modular -- there are some 40 different modules in it.

    But:
    You can't have more than one module open at a time. Which means if you need information from another module, you are stuck.
    You can't minimize the application when you have a module open.
    If you click the exit button, in some modules you are prompted, "discard changes", some save automatically, some discard silently.
    The exit button can be anywhere on the panel, and not always next to the save button.

    A while ago my personal web page for my tree farm. (My other job) had dual navigation bars, a horizontal one under the logo, and a vertical one on the left margin. I suckered my inlaws into test driving the web site, and watched. In particular I watched the mouse. It kept wandering between the two nav bars.

    I tore into the code, and consolidated into a single nav bar.

    4. Code last.

    One of my CS profs insisted, "Write the user manual first." I think that helps clarify a lot of how the internal coding happens. Open source needs fast UI proto typing tools. If you want to get non-coding designers in on the fun, then we nee

    --
    Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
  126. My breakfast is for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a lot of criticism for developers who build things for themselves without being considerate of other users. "It works for me," draws a lot of fire as a typical geek response to others' difficulties.

    The other day, I had a very strange experience. I stepped outside my house first thing in the morning, and when I came back in, there was a young boy helping himself to my breakfast. Apparently, the neighbor's child is an early riser and got bored with how quiet things were at his place.

    I was mostly amused, and made some more breakfast for myself. The young boy didn't complain about my cooking. If he had, I would have welcomed him to eat his own food at his house. Why should I cook my breakfast to please the neighbor's child?

    Now, if I were running a restaurant, things would be different. But most open source software isn't restaurant fare. It is personal breakfast, with a recipe passed on to a neighbor. The neighbor is free to change things up if they prefer. Indeed, the neighbor can open a restaurant using my recipes as a base. They can alter, combine, and otherwise innovate as necessary to meet the needs of _their_ customers or themselves. But that doesn't mean that _I_ need to change anything.

    They shouldn't complain that I am not meeting their needs as a cook. I am not their cook. They could hire me as a cook and make any demands they like, or they can hire their own cook. If they want to change color, flavor, quantities, or whatever they can do it themselves, pay me to do it, or hire someone else to do it. But it certainly would not be appropriate to complain that my breakfast doesn't suit them.

    My breakfast is for me. I make my breakfast the way I like it.

  127. duh duh a thousand times duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the simple solution is a three-step process:
    1. charge for it
    2. listen to what your paying customers are telling you
    3. hire professionals to do it right

    yes, yes, you could in theory skip step 1, but you'll find that the quality of feedback in step 2 would be reduced by several orders of magnitude

    you can also skip step 3, but again you'll find that the absence of monetary incentives reduce the quality and predictability of results to the vanishing point

    free software is almost always - for the many reasons outlined in the original article - worth exactly what you paid for it

    free software is a great way for novice nerds to get experience [thus becoming hard-core nerds] but just remember that an amateur basketball team (or any other kind of team) will never compete in the long run with a professional team, for reasons that should be blazingly obvious

  128. Really a matter of choice... by zevans · · Score: 1

    Nothing bugs me more than a piece of software that insists purely on mouse or purely on keyboard. Except perhaps an environment that has utterly inconsistent keyboard shortcuts.

    I like Windows XP, and Office (there, I said it) because it really has stuck to the rules around a common user interface and several ways to do everything. A lot of what is in there has not changed since it was all shamelessly stolen from Xerox / GEM / Lisa.

    The other great thing about Office is the customisable toolbars and the ease of changing keyboard shortcuts around, and moving things around to where you want them, and floating stuff to optimise screen estate. (Although this has holes - on IE7 for instance you can move some toolbars/menus but not others - what's that about?)

    I haven't played with OpenOffice enough yet to see if it can compete there - but certainly GNOME/Ubuntu has some shortcomings in this area before you even get as far as the app. That said, Nautilus makes a damn sight more sense than Explorer ever has.

    I speak fluent vi, because for certain editing jobs it's a very efficient way of going mouse-free, especially if you're doing a ton of search/replace.

    I suppose what I am saying here, in a rambling way, is that in a lot of FOSS apps you get what you are given and there's not much that you can change. You can make Windows Media Player look like pretty much any of the media players available for Ubuntu, but the reverse does not apply.

    But of course you have already made the choice, Neo...

    --
    "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
  129. Fosstard by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

    UNIX programmers (the majority of FOSS developers) design software the way that they would want it to be used. It makes sense to other programmers

    As a UNIX admin, fuck you. Maybe you've forgotten who the hell you write code for?
    If it's "ME, and I'm a developer" then fuck you twice, you're going to lose mindshare to Solaris, fast.

    Windows and Mac OS X systems and applications are easy to use because the front end has been designed to meet all usual purposes, even if it cuts back on the functionality.

    You are delusional. I'm willing to bet you haven't worked with/been a Windows administrator. In fact, you don't seem to be a UNIX admin either. Also, talking about UNIX in such a broad, oversimplified manner, while excluding OS X is HILARIOUS! Apparently you are comparing desktop environments of Windows, OS X, and GNOME and/or KDE. Care to explain how GNOME or KDE are more functional than the OS X or Windows desktop environments? I'm waiting...

    Linux and most UNIX systems and applications are harder to use because they are built with the architecture of the code in mind.

    This is an advantage over building applications with user's workflows, and usability expectations in mind?

    Users, on the other hand, focus less on the architecture of the software they are using than on the front end.

    May I ask, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK COMPUTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO?

    A good UNIX program can easily work with other UNIX programs, and a good UNIX program is made as general as possible to maximize speed and reduce bloat as the program advances.

    Windows applications work easily with other Windows applications, OS X applications work easily with other OS X applications, and show me a bloated UNIX application that gets less bloated over time. Explain how this is unique to "UNIX".

    I think application programmers should keep the Firefox success in mind when they develop code, even though it will be much more expensive and time consuming than the UNIX mentality since they will have to keep stopping what they are doing to release and polish versions for users (essentially dead forking every couple of months).

    Cool, I think I should win a million bucks tomorrow.

    Please, FLOSS volunteers, donate MORE of your time to your free projects. Keep firefox in mind, and continue volunteering your time until the fruits of your labor are indistinguishable in quality from what PAID developers produce.

    Do you have ANY idea what makes free software WORK, kid? I bet you think FLOSS developers should devote more time to documentation, internationalization, usability, and then "just make it work" too? Keep on wishing...

  130. Actually, old design paradigm required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No offense intended, but it seems to me the real reason UI designers don't have penetration into free or even some commercial projects is that they generally lack coding credibility and the clout that goes with it.

    Part of the issue is that UI designers generally don't contribute code directly into a project. There is nothing more convincing to any project than a working/tested code contribution.

    UI designers can talk about placement rules, color palettes, screen flow etc. until they are blue in the face. But if the coders aren't interested - and the UI designer can't code - then it doesn't happen, unless there is buy-in from a management that can enforce (usually monetary) control over the project.

    This sort of tight management control is exactly what a lot of coders joined a free software project to avoid in the first place.

    So, it ain't gonna happen - not on any meaningful scale.

    If you want to see good UI happening in free software projects, then at least one programmer (ideally the one writing the UI) should be proficient in UI and usability (as in older times).

    Essentially, you need to somehow reverse the process of UI designer specialization, and recombine the UI design skillset with the UI coding responsibilities.

    Until then, we can all continue to enjoy the current level of user experience with free software.

  131. Remember: by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    A GUI is really just a set of training wheels for a new application. Once you know what you're doing, you can go faster without it!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  132. How about less contempt? by Malkin · · Score: 1

    I think that open source software would show great usability improvements if open source developers had less contempt for average users. I don't know how many times I've seen people humbly request a much-needed usability improvement, only to be flamed by defensive developers and their fanboys, insisting that the poor requester simply doesn't have enough familiarity with the application (or technical prowess, or intellect, or taste, or sophistication) to appreciate the "genius" of the interface. If we want business people and grandmas using open source software, we need to grow the hell up, and stop treating them like they're a bunch of dimwits. If your software is hard for them to use, your software is hard for them to use, and no amount of elitist BS is going to magically change that.

  133. Developers are users too by Spugglefink · · Score: 1

    One thing all of this random arguing I've read so far misses is the case of the developer who is also a user. I get annoyed when some know-it-all jackass "usability expert" comes to my project and starts making demands that everything will become more usable as soon as I hide or eliminate half the stuff I actually use on a daily basis. We recently went through a round of that. Let's clean up the toolbars, and make them more tidy. So everyone circled what they actually use on a screenshot, and there was very little overlap. The stuff I could do without is critical to someone else, and vice versa. So I have to come down on the side of if you want to castrate my user interface, then fork it or bugger off.

  134. Comments from the KDE UI team on this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://weblog.obso1337.org/2008/comments-on-recent-open-source-usability-article/

  135. Fixed or F$#*&d? by portaloo · · Score: 1

    So, you want to fix free software by trying to get people to stop freely distributing said free software?

    Sensational!

  136. Please feel free to waste your time by portaloo · · Score: 1

    I'm a fairly experienced developer and even I find it difficult to solve problems in free software that others are actively controlling. I have to read up on the coding standard, possibly go through large amounts of code to see what needs to be changed (and how to change it to avoid unforeseen problems) and then hope that my patch gets added.

    It seems much more sensible to suggest changes to current developers and let them fix it their way. I know this probably goes against the spirit of FOSS, but I just don't feel comfortable spending time trying to solve a problem that may be not be seen (or understood) as one by the people maintaining the software.

    I remember the trouble people had convincing the GTK+ developers that there was a bug in the menu code that resulted in the entire menu disappearing if you clicked on a sub-menu within the "keep-up triangle". I don't think they ever got it - at least not in the bug report discussions I contributed to. The bug magically vanished recently, but I am expecting its reintroduction at some point down the line. I did consider trying to fix it myself, but developer's comments led me to believe that I would just be wasting my time.