Slashdot Mirror
Russia and Georgia Engaged In a Cyberwar
doctorfaustus writes "I first picked this up in bits and pieces last week off Daily Rotation. A more in-depth story is available at ZDNet, which reports 'a week's worth of speculations around Russian Internet forums have finally materialized into a coordinated cyber attack against Georgia's Internet infrastructure. The attacks have already managed to compromise several government web sites, with continuing DDoS attacks against numerous other Georgian government sites, prompting the government to switch to hosting locations to the US, with Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs undertaking a desperate step in order to disseminate real-time information by moving to a Blogspot account.' There is a question whether the computer work is being done by the Russian military or others. ZDNet's story offers further analysis of the attacks themselves and their origins. Some pretty good reporting." And reader redbu11 contributes the news that Georgia seems to be censoring access to all Russian websites, as confirmed by a Georgian looking glass/nslookup tool. The access is blocked on DNS level (Italy censored the Pirate Bay in the same way). Here are a couple of screenshots (in a language other than English) as of Aug 12th 5:40 pm: www.linux.ru nslookup — FAIL, www.cnn.com nslookup — OK.
ComputerWorld guy CWmike adds "In an intriguing cyberalliance, two Estonian computer experts are heading to Georgia to keep the country's networks running amid an intense military confrontation with Russia. Poland has lent space on its president's Web page for Georgia to post updates on its ongoing conflict with Russia. Estonia is also now hosting Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site."
ComputerWorld guy CWmike adds "In an intriguing cyberalliance, two Estonian computer experts are heading to Georgia to keep the country's networks running amid an intense military confrontation with Russia. Poland has lent space on its president's Web page for Georgia to post updates on its ongoing conflict with Russia. Estonia is also now hosting Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site."
We can just sit back and watch and see just how good their blackhats really are.
It was just too dang hot for them to see it coming.
I am all for freedom of the press... but these two countries are more or less at war right now (whether they should be or not is topic for another discussion).
It seems perfectly reasonable to me for one country at war with another to stop information flowing in from the enemy to the local populace.
I heard all this talk about a war between Russia and Georgia and got kind of anxious, but itturns out it's just a cyberwar. The media really should stop sensationalizing these things like that.
Just like we can specify a URL like "http://username:password@www.somewhere.com/" can we come up with a way to specify a given virtualhostname at an IP address (say... "http://www.somesite.com>192.168.1.5/")?
Aside from evading such DNS censorship, it'd make debugging DNS and vhost configuration errors much, much easier.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
It seems that Georgian military units are pinging off the map, while russian units are enjoying first shot capability.
This has allowed the Russians to clear each map easily, with little resistance.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
I first heard about this by reading an article titled "Evidence of Russian Cyberwarfare Against Georgia". It was posted on this site you might have heard about called /. (or Slashdot).
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
I don't know, dude. This is the Caucasus we're talking about. Lots of Caucasians there.
The opposite of progress is congress
I don't know, dude. This is the Caucasus [wikipedia.org] we're talking about. Lots of Caucasians there.
Yah, but they're mostly self-loathing caucasians, as opposed to white supremacists.
So, I guess this could be considered the ultimate rick roll.
The official response to DOS is to Distribute content as widely as possible. They can't really censor things if others want the info spread. There are way too many tools available now to keep something censored.
We'll call this the Russian Correlation to The Streisand Effect from now on.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Here are a couple of screenshots (in a language other than English)
It's Georgian. In language and alphabet.
I'm pretty sure the Georgians tried this once already, in Splinter Cell...
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Cyberwar is global. What's to stop widespread vigilante justice against either side? What's to stop US or Chinese hackers from joining in independently to fight on the side they choose? When does blogspot or the Estonian site become the target?
Looks like the Defcon network guys could have a nice little contracting business...
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
I've listened to NPR yesterday about this, and the best experts have been able to say so far is that it is cyber VANDALISM. No major infrastructure has been crashed. Hospitals and such have not been imploded.
There is even speculation that Georgians themselves crashed/trashed their OWN systems to exploit the current bad image Putin (yes, PUTIN is calling the shots, not Medvedev. Moreover, and ironically, a US-based outfit in, guess where... GEORGIA (yes, the state) offered and took on the hosting for the Georgian President's web site. Guess what? It wasn't working out. It was still being crashed/taken down. So, another party (seems to be Estonia) is helping out.
I really fracking wish some of these sensationalistic headers on Slash would get slashed.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2008/08/august_12th_show.html
Now, given that Putin/Medvedev claim Russian advances are immediately ceasing (purportedly) there really isn't "cyber warfare" going on, isn't there? If things continue, or escalate, THEN it might truly eclipse the bounds into "warfare".
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I'm sure that they were largely on top of it, right up until their back-ups got linked on slashdot.
That's more force than any government could muster.
created the way it is so it would be robust against enemy attacks. The idea was that if New York (for instance) was bombed, the traffic would re-route itself around that problem and communication would be maintained.
Murphy's law (or a variant thereof) is at work here. The very architecture of the internet makes it possible to totally shut down a country's communication infrastructure. It seems like a very good argument for keeping the telephone system completely separate from the internet.
How come most people think that the government/military actually unleash those DDoS (or other) attacks? They gain close to nothing by doing so, and the money/skill that is needed for this can be employed better. Everything is much more simple - the government launches heavy media propaganda, and one of its results is that there are suddenly a lot of people who want to do this kind of thing for nothing at all. It was like this during the Russian-Estonian tension - people just consolidated on different boards to DDoS or hack sites (mainly DDoS, since it doesn't take very much skill). Of course, censoring access to sites on a country level is a whole different thing, it clearly shows a government involvement.
Hu Jintao: Hello, Putin? Its me, Hu. Yeah, I'm fine, how are you? Listen, we need something strong to divert the public eyes from tibet issue during olympics.....
This is a perfect situation for the REST of the world to voice its opinion.....by its own action.
C'mon, you guys. You know damn well that if enough /.ers got it together, the response to all this doesn't have to come from Georgia. The only requirement to respond is a conscience.
A background in IT is most certainly useful, though.
The problem is finding out who is in the wrong, and who is in the right.
Georgia: c2c?
Russia: Yes, I would love to cyber
Georgia: 2 late lol..just got 3 msgs
Russia: Die
Georgia: ?
Russia: I winnuke you
Georgia: OH *@#@)(! I am still running win95!
Wasn't the internet invented with the idea in mind that you can't do exactly that, stop information from being exchanged? Wasn't that what the idea behind the whole resilence of the net and rerouting past clogged or destroyed nodes was, back when ARPA had its fingers on it?
Back to the drawing board, people, epic fail. Or rather, get back to the redundancy we stripped because we're cheap and want the net to be profitable.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
"There is a question whether the computer work is being done by the Russian military or others."
Plausible deniability.
Ya dumb fuckers - was it that hard to try to identify the language involved? Even just the alphabet, if you weren't sure of the specific language?
Sigh.
back to Mars you arrogant little greenie
Sigh...I know all that. I was hoping the war was big enough news that the sarcasm in my post would be obvious, but apparently not.
Dude, it's just a headline. Most folks who see Georgia think of my home state. As a matter of fact, so do I. I have to think, "Oh, it's the COUNTRY of Georgia."
Then, I don't care so much. Sorry, there's plenty of problems in my own back yard to fix and I firmly believe that if we paid attention to our own problems instead of worry about everyone else, then the World would actually be a better place. And, it wouldn't give ammunition to folks like China to point our fingers back at us saying, "Well, if you're so fond of freedom, humane treatment, etc... why don't you fix YOUR problems." I can't argue with that. I'm not much for sanctimony or hypocrisy.
Yes, I realize the irony that "we're " fighting for freedom in Iraq with Georgia's help but when they need help from an oppressor, we're mute. Yep, gotta love World politics. That's why I'm staying home.
I prefer to walk the walk - thank-you-very-much.
Oh wait, you meant the other Georgia.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
...service denies you!
I think the claim that Georgia is censoring traffic is probably misleading.
What's happening is that they've got incoming DoS-attacks, and have probably nullrouted quite a few russian IP-ranges. This probably includes quite a few DNS servers, making DNS lookups fail.
I haven't taken the time to _check_ any of this, but if you nullroute the DNS servers, of course DNS lookups will fail. If you're under a DoS, of course you nullroute quite a lot.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
Google has an old Georgia Foreign Ministry website cached.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:nBZ19xqUP6wJ:www.mfa.gov.ge/%3Flang_id%3DENG+foreign+ministry+georgia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
There is some information there (in cached version) that contradicts current statements by the Georgian goverment regarding the start of the events.
I may venture so far as to question the source of cyber attacks on Georgia websites.
Speaking of cyberwar... So, I google mapped Georgia (I'm reasonably good about knowing geography... but come on, Georgia? Sorry Georgians...) Anyway... I was rather disappointed to find that... there's nothing there. Really odd. Roads end, obvious cities aren't even labeled as cities. It's not like Google did a cursory mapping of it and skipped parts... it's just that aside from the border and the country name it doesn't exist. Also... good luck finding it by typing "Georgia" in google maps. The country isn't even an option. I had to wander through eastern Europe until I got over by Turkey before I saw it.
You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
here : http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=714632 these are the people working at that atlanta web host, hosting georgian president's site from russian bastardiness. they havent had enough sleep in the few days but they made a fight of principle out of it.
Read radical news here
The interesting thing is that in Moscow, the term "Caucasian" is a derogatory reference to darker-skinned people such as those from Chechnya, which is near Georgia.
Though I got branded as a troll and as "not Understanding" modern communication systems last time I posted this, I will try again. We need to be prepared with ways to shut down major communication lines to countries engaged in hostilities in the case of cyber battles. Yes, the combatants may be using systems outside their country, but unless the hacker is stationed outside also you can't give orders to your bot net or remote hacking system with out an internet connection or magic.
I know network systems are large and complicated, but they are not infinitely so and could be designed or at least analyzed in advance with one eye at national boundaries. Even satellite systems have to be over some country and receiving signals from a definable physical area. I freely admit it becomes a VERY blunt hammer, but if nations are at war and real people are dying I wouldn't think twice about cutting off an aggressor nation's service. (Maybe we would leave some kind of system in place for our own purposes, for example maybe WE want to know what is going on, but that should be our decision.) The blunt hammer nature would just be additional pressure stop the attack.
For all of you who told me this was impossible, looks like Russia was able to do this in part to Georgia!
must be really exciting, to you, lamer
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technology/13cyber.html?_r=1&ref=technology&oref=slogin
just hire some more of those anchor dragging fishing boats!
I don't know, dude. This is the Caucasus [wikipedia.org] we're talking about. Lots of Caucasians there.
Yah, but they're mostly self-loathing caucasians, as opposed to white supremacists.
You think white supremacists don't loathe themselves? I always figured those who have to denigrate others to feel better about themselves must have a pretty low opinion of themselves to start with.
Infuriate left and right
...but internet media (propaganda) war. Both sides have submittet their own point of view to youtube. Just do the search in youtube. Seems that russians are winning at least this part of the war.
A foreign power is using illegally obtained U.S. resources (compromised PCs) to attack another power. I believe that is a serious breach of international law. It would be no different t
meh
I heard this AM on Michael Krasny's "Forum" a highly-regarded guest say that there is speculation that former KGB and other intel officers are basically running gang outfits in the region, and that they created the pretext for Russia to go and attack Georgia.
Of course, as far as Russia is concerned, this is still its territory.
As for the oil, there's only about 1 million barrels a day flowing out of there (near Georgia?), not much to speak of.
Also, there is some merit (from one or more guests on the show), there could be a diabolical plan (between Bush & Putin? or McCain staff & Medvedev/Putin?) to actually instigate this sudden flare-up to boast McCain's "leadership" credentials. As long as Russia's interests and the current administration's duties don't turn into WW3, Russia wins, and maybe McCain wins by virtue of the fact that Obama is not a veteran, despite every president of the US (or of most nations) having well-heeled military advisers who know a HELL of a lot more than almost any president, despite what the CIA staff may tell the president in the morning/daily intelligence briefings.
Meanwhile, "petro confidence" might bounce and bound merrily along, since most of Europe gets its oil from Russia. That the US didn't HELP Georgia (other than flying back home from the M.E. some 2,000 troops to aid in the debacle/conflict) is quite telling. Georgia is a staunch supporter of the US, and vice versa. They named a road after the current Bush sitting in the White House. He claimed he had a soft spot for Georgia (I guess he had "Georgia on his mind" since his name has some of the same letters as that nation/FSR state...), and yet is letting Putin only hear mild words.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see WW III. Likely, this will roll over and go quiet in under 2 weeks. It has to. The EU needs its fuel needs met, and the US for years exacerbated things and pissed off Putin and Putin's few allies by having meddled in Poland, and by having pushed those missile defense shield plans so close to Russia's borders.
Now, as for oil outside of Russia, if you want to see REAL fireworks, just consider that big nations now are vying to carve up the Arctic. Imagine if drilled oil there is spilled, in that frigid/icy water. It could be the most significant, lasting human-instigated environmental disaster ever.
For other/more relevant info, see:
http://www.kqed.org/radio/
http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R808120900
And, for those of you interested the life of a soldier-for-hire writing about his experiences in Iraq ("Highway to Hell: Dispatches from a Mercenary in Iraq")
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93525811&ft=1&f=13
But, do keep in mind that while he and others see a usefulness in having "mercs" in Iraq and Afghanistan, don't forget that they took all the contracting moneys provided, and yet many don't want the risk associated. They KNEW the risks. So far, some 1,000 (or, is it 2,000) civilian guns for hire have been killed in action there. Also, keep in mind that many of them can "earn" $150,000 to $250,000 a year driving fuel trucks or being body guards for local officials and ministry officials...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Why don't russian just link some Georgia's site in slashdot? The chances of service survival after a slashdot rampage are minimal.
i dont know others, but i hold anyone who is a participating member of internet and i.t. community to respect the general understanding of freedom and liberty we have on the net.
if i was into security, i wouldnt be able to block an entire nation's internet access and then go look straight to the faces of people in my group, or other groups, or even the community, in the scene and underground.
for even the underground has a code of conduct, even if unwritten and not enforced. you have to respect freedom and liberty even if you wear your hat black.
i would like to believe that this shit happening to internet in georgia is due to brainless russian government (which is practically an extension of the mafia mob ruling your country) employing military/espionage personnel to its bidding.
please tell me that it is as such, that you dont support this kind of shit, and clear our minds of the questions that have come to being due to the bastardiness we have experienced.
Read radical news here
They are 'asshat' hackers.
Russia behaves like an organized crime gang on a superpower scale. There is little mercy or love left in the Russian soul.
That being said, Georgia made a serious, serious blunder when it attacked the Ossetien separatists.
We don't have to go back to Artilla the Hun, just last week is more than enough. The US has been "advising" the Georgians until a few weeks ago, last month they had a thousand guys there "training". And who knows how many "trainers" are still there along with spooks and specops, porobably a decent number. They are working hand in glove all the time. Taking advantage of the world's distraction with the Olympic opening, they attempted a fast blitzkrieg to the Ossetian capital city, killing 1500 people in the process, including tons of completely innocent civilians, just shelling the city hard, but they couldn't take it and are now getting the asses kicked now. So what is over the top about fighting back if you get attacked, and making damn sure it doesn't happen again? How about if it was your relatives that got wasted by the Georgians being "advised" by the US? Would you then consider the response to be "over the top"? If anything, I think the Ossetians and the Russians have shown remarkable restraint.
There is no such thing as a "fair fight" in war, you fight to win, period. All the nations since time began fight like that, if you have a huge advantage, you use it, and you keep using it until it isn't needed.
The US not only invaded a nation and took it over that had a peripheral involvement in the 9-11 attacks that killed 3,000 people, they went ahead and attacked and took over another nation that had absolutely nothing to do with it and have killed who knows how many people, many thousands, figures vary wildly, based on lying about the involvement. Pure lies. *That* second action is way the hell over the top, they had a huge military advantage and used it, including wasting civilians, so much so they stopped issuing official death figures. They lost worldwide huge cred and any chance of assuming any moral or ethical high ground over that, same as they have none in this latest incident.
I am in no way a fan of the bulk of Russia's past activities, but in this particular case, the US and the Georgians screwed up bad, real bad, they are the bad guys completely, they thought they could pull off a fast one, but their arrogance and false military macho failed them and they are getting some just desserts. Of course they are desperately trying some fast quick lies in the press like they always do, but it won't work except on the absolute dullest of the stupid and the fanatical flag wavers who always crawl out from under their rocks and treat war like a football game.
it sure is a good thing Uncle Sam threw the book at all those hackers back in the day, instead of recruiting them.
I feel so much safer.
Not as many niggers as US Georgia.
In Soviet Georgia, Blacks lynch you.
Yes, you specifically.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
"Russians, Georgians, and Niggers are all sub-human."
History of the Internet, Chapter 5: David Duke gets his first email address, Slashdot account.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
To be honest I've not read every post in detail, but surely we're missing the point here?
What they're saying is that the internet can be used as an early-warning system which, to a certain extent, renders the attack itself.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
In the course of the last 24 hours RTâ(TM)s website (www.russiatoday.com) has endured numerous DDoS attacks, which have made it unavailable for some time. Source
South Ossetia is a Georgian province. Population there is NOT Russian, but they were given Russian passports around the time when Georgia split off from Soviet Union. The region was mostly governed by Russians, and they supported it with weapons and fueled separatist movement there. And there were provocations from Russian/Ossetian side before Georgia invaded last Friday. See August 1-7 buildup on Wikipedia article. Same thing with Abkhazia. Russian occupation and annexation of Abkhazia was completely unwarranted and unprovoked- Georgia did nothing to Abkhazia.
In general, this is just a part of The Great Game. Divide your enemies, make Abkhazians, Ossetians, Georgians hate each other and fight each other, and rule them all. But I still think that Russia provoked this war, and they were preparing for this war long time before Georgian strike on Friday. Russia has been meddling and fighting in Caucasus for hundreds of years now. They have been meddling with other neighboring countries as well. And if the world doesn't stand up to their bullying, this will make Russia feel invincible and beyond punishment. I wonder who would suffer next. Ukraine? Baltic states? Poland? Chechnya is still occupied, and genocide there is still ongoing. Russia never cared and will never care for lives of people, their own citizens or not, nor for peace.
And don't get me started on peacekeepers. Russia having "peacekeepers" in Ossetia is similar to Nazi Germany having peacekeepers in Poland.
--Coder
Georgian insurgents started the war and attacked russian troops in S. Ossetia, Russia retaliated.
http://www.infowars.com/
However, in Russia... Hatred against ethnic factions in Georgia, Russia, Azeribaijan, and all the NIS states is growing fierce... and I mean fierce
I just added this to my firewall rules:
iptables -A INPUT -m geoip --source-country RU -j DROP
My servers no longer exist to the Russians. Yes, I know they can use a proxy to get around that. It's still a whole lot more than the United Nations would or could do.
-- Will program for bandwidth
You are misreading the comments. You will be hard pressed to find Russians that side with the Georgians. Even a poll on CNN website had 75-25 in favor of Georgia being an aggressor .. that's until the poll was pulled.
Why are you calling Russians bastards?
On the night of August 7th/8th, Saakashvili launched an operation to "restore constitutional order" in South Ossetia. He started by bombing the crap out of Tskhinvali using Grad rocket launchers, resulting in hundreds of dead Ossetian civilians (1500 according to Ossetian and Russian numbers). Why wasn't there an outcry over their deaths in the western media? Whenever the Ossetian death toll was called it was qualified as unconfirmed. However, when a Russian plane missed a military target on August 9th and 5 Georgian civilians died in Gori it was all over the news.
Perhaps it's best to avoid name calling, and re-evaluate the reasoning behind your prejudiced attitude towards Russians. They aren't the bad guys every time you know.
I hope we're being smart, and judging by all the funding going into cyber-security, I think we are. The Russians and Chinese are just broadcasting their moves and strategies on the tiny conflicts, whereas we're being smart and holding our cards very close to our chest (at least that's what I'm hopeful we're doing).
Kind of reminds me somewhat of Soviet submarines back when sub warfare was fairly new. Soviet subs were very noisy and the US subs could hear them from miles away. The Russians didn't care - they don't make engineering masterpieces, they make machines that are tough and work well.
We monitored their movements freely and knew where practically every sub was. I think we're kind of in the same era in cyberwarfare (of course I'm engaging in conjuncture here). I'd hope the NSA is looking at all of these techniques Russia is using and planning around them - so USA engineering can win again. Of course eventually the Russians wised up and started making subs as quiet as ours, but it took them a while.
(God help us if we get into another cold war, but it might happen)
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Georgia attacked separatists and criminals within their own borders. Yes, it was a stupid move, but all that different from Russia attacking Chechyneyan rebels and criminals within its own borders.
Granted, there were a lot of soldiers there as "peacekeepers", and a lot of people who had been given Russian passports (not really Russian citizens). It was a stupid move of Georgia to start a crackdown on the separatists when it was obvious it was in a precarious situation. Don't poke the bear in the eye if you want to keep your finger.
But the Russian response was amazingly out of proportion. Tanks crossed into a sovereign country, beyond even the disputed South Ossetia region in question, without any delay for negotiations or even an hour or two of threatening postures. This is not like US invading Iraq after months of rhetoric and misinformation to the UN and a small bit of planning.
Of course there was a cyber war. Russia tried it against Estonia. I don't think the government itself was behind it, as it's an ultimately futile gesture. But the government certainly took no action to find or punish whoever was behind the cyber attacks there. Probably better to wink at the script kiddies aimed against outside countries than to have them focus on targets at home.
It's also interesting to point out that the an average script kiddie wouldn't bother, or wouldn't even understand the PSYOPs effect of coming up with identical gestures of both parties and integrating them within the defaced sites.
Really? I sincerely disagree. Even looking at the Palestinian nationalist hackers (which is clearly not state-sponsored), one can see parallel manners of conveying political messages or trashing opponents. Or just look at YTMND.
forget it.
There is a big difference between someone getting shot and a website being inaccessible. I take offense at the term "Cyberwar" or "Cyberterrorism". If every website in the world went down, REAL war is not a justified response.
I'm not implying that hacking triggered this conflict. I am merely taking offense at the term "Cyberwar".
the government certainly took no action to find or punish whoever was behind the cyber attacks ;). They still have no clue who actually controls Storm.
The same applies to most botnets.
- it's difficult, almost impossible to find them.
Look at Storm superworm, for example: is known since many months; countless articles are written; researchers investigate it, plot its topology, they know how it is controlled, even Bruce Schneier blogged about it
Most botnet owners are caught because they try to earn cash with the botnet in some way, like sending Vi***gra spam or blackmailing some bank (pay us $1M or we DDoS you). Earlier or later, police catches them by "following the money".
This doesn't work with nationalist DDoSers: they neither extort any money nor contact anyone.
Just to make things a little clearer. The reasons that Russia invaded georgia is as follows.
- Georgia broke away from Russia in 1991, much to the dismay of Moscow
- 2 seperate areas of northern Georgia that border Russia have been trying to break away from Georgia for years
- One of the 2 areas is called Ossetia, it borders Russia to the north and Georgia on all other sides.
- Because of a border skirmish where Georgian troops claim to have been bombed by Ossetia rebels, the Georgian military advanced in Ossetia to take control of the capitol.
- Ossetia's resistance and succession attempts are mostly bankrolled by Russia and the local poloticians in Ossetia are Russian.
- Because of the Georgian troops entering Ossetia (wich they claim is thier own territory, and sort of is) Russia sent thousands of troops into Ossetia and the rest of Georgia, killed thousands and destroyed Georgia's military infrastructure.
It's that simple.
and let slip the nerds of war.
-- apologies to Shakespeare, &c.
By the time you finish reading this sentence will end.
The WSJ editorial board wrote, "No matter who fired the first shot last week in the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia, Moscow is using the separatist issue as an excuse to demolish Georgia's military and, if possible, depose its democratically elected government. Russian forces moved ever deeper into Georgia proper Monday. They launched a second front in the west from another breakaway province, Abkhazia, and took the central city of Gori, which lies 40 miles from the Georgian capital of Tbilisi. These moves slice the country in half and isolate its ports, most of which Russia has bombed or blockaded. Moscow dismissed a cease-fire drawn up by European nations and signed by Georgia.
Russian bombers have also hit residential and industrial areas, making a mockery of Moscow's charge that Georgia is the party indiscriminately killing civilians. Russian claims of Georgian ethnic cleansing now look like well-rehearsed propaganda lines to justify a well-prepared invasion. Thousands of soldiers and hundreds of tanks, ships and warplanes were waiting for Mr. Putin's command."
because the USSR spent 70 years building a large economy out of those little states, and they moved a lot of people around to keep the piece. Then the 1990's hit, the wall fell and the USSR was carved up into little ethnic groups while NATO held a gun to Russia's head. Now that the US is over-committed it's a good time for Putin to grab some home points and get some wayward "states" back.
Its only a war when BOTH sides are fighting... that is clearly not the case here.
More like cyber-genocide.
Ask yourself what were the Russians doing there in the first place.
This reminds me of an old joke (translated from Russian) - "America is interfering with the USSR's internal affairs all over the world".
The saddest poem
Hmm, the preseident's site seems to be down now, I guess they could handle the attacks, but not slashdot. I wonder if Slashdot should be considered a WMD?
So, just like Chechnya and the siege of Grozny, then (skimping over the much lower civilian casualties in Ossetia)? Except the US/NATO did not intervene military in Chechnya, while Russia did just that in Ossetia. Meanwhile, last I checked, Russia is still in Chechnya, and basically just keeps saying "fuck you" to any country trying to raise that issue.
You do realise that Georgia had proper statehood for literally centuries (as a unified kingdom, dating back to XI century) before the Russian Empire annexed it in 1800? I think that your derisively-quoted "state" reference is hardly applicable here.
In Italy thepiratebay.org works (Aug 13th 13.00 GMT+1). Maybe a problem with DNS?
On the night of August 7th/8th, Saakashvili launched an operation to "restore constitutional order" in South Ossetia. He started by bombing the crap out of Tskhinvali using Grad rocket launchers, resulting in hundreds of dead Ossetian civilians (1500 according to Ossetian and Russian numbers).
this is the exact reason im calling them bastards
for 2 years now, they have been issuing russian citizenship to ossetians and been arming and provoking pro russian parties in ossetia. exactly at that week, before aug 7/8, those ossetian 'pro russian parties' suddenly started donning military uniforms and acting like a militia. then made their intention of breaking away from ossetia clear.
that "restore constitutional control" thing, you are putting in quotes there, is exactly what it sounds like. its LEGALLY an attempt to restore CONSTITUTIONAL control over an area that country of georgia had SOVEREIGN RIGHTS.
and whaddya know, AS SOON AS ossetia sends its army to restore control, suddenly russian army steps in. wow. not half a day later ! pretty quick for a non prepared, unexpected situation.
and suddenly 1500 ossetian "civilians" died. russian government skips to explain WHY the hell many of those ossetians were wearing MILITARY OUTFITS at that time.
thats why im calling russians bastards. they have prepared this shit for 5 years, openly arranged for it for 2 years, and as if the entire world was stupid, coincided the provocation with the olympics. everyone was gonna be involved with olympics, so there would be less interest. no. all major news outlets given full and even extra time to this, and we watched the shit unfold live.
no. my attitude towards russians will be forever impacted by this shit they have pulled out. unless they remove this MOB ruling their country since 1990, and get a REAL democracy going.
Read radical news here
You do realize that not so much Georgia was "annexed" by Russia in 19th century as it was taken over to protect georgians (fellow Christians, by the way) from Osman Empire in response to their own begging?
The story, by the way is very similar with the story of "annexed" Ukraine. There were no war against Russia in either case.
I hope that some slashdotters will lend a hand to the little guy. Georgia is pretty much f*cked without some outside intervention.
The Ossies have computers too, as you may know.
They are engaged in a cyber war the same way the criminal and victim engage in a rape war.
Life needs more saving throws.
http://www.civil.ge/ is still accessible and a good source of information. The U.S. press is doing an awful job of reporting this.
Since this weekend, the amount of DDoS command & control points in Georgia have risen by quite a bit. All those hackers, ahem, security consultants are paying off as they go on the counter-offensive.
If you think that's related to my post, I think you've misunderstood how DNS works.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
I know that annexation was voluntarily (though there were some unpleasant moments to it, such as effectively shutting down the Georgian Orthodox Church by Russian authorities). "Annexation" is a purely legal term which does not imply aggression, merely states what happened - the absorbtion of a formerly sovereign state into another, with all its territory and citizens, losing its sovereignity in the process.
I always figured those who have to denigrate others to feel better about themselves must have a pretty low opinion of themselves to start with.
Pot. Kettle. Gun toting Republican Nazi.
I always figured those who have to denigrate others to feel better about themselves must have a pretty low opinion of themselves to start with.
Pot. Kettle. Gun toting Republican Nazi.
It is interesting that you didn't finish that pot and kettle saying ...
Infuriate left and right
generally, if it happened before 1945 the UN considers that land part of whatever nation had it. Much like how China took over Tibet in the 1950's but the US sits by and let's them have it. How about how Kuwait was allowed to split from Iraq in the 1960's even though it was traditionally part of Iraq for the previous hundred years or so but we "punish" Saddam for taking it back when it split during his lifetime.
The UN makes things up "sovereignty" it wants. Right now the US has more military power so the rest of the security counsel is "yes men" to us. A little over 100 years ago Texas was a separate country.. would we let them break off? If "fairness" is the case why aren't we allowing Taiwan to be accepted into the UN as they have had a separate government and geographically separate from china since the 1950's?
The Tibet situation is a classic example of "might makes right". The US, EU, and the rest of the West make a lot of fuss over it, but noone is going to go in there guns blazing, because China has big guns, too.
There was no such state as Iraq before 1921. It was artificially created by the British in the first place (which is also partly why its people keep trying to wipe each other out). Of course, both today's Kuwait and today's Iraq were parts of the Ottoman Empire together (though Kuwait was at least a single distinctive entity; what is now Iraq was part of several different vilayets under the Ottomans).
The Civil War gave a definite answer to that question. Beside that, Texans aren't such a distinctive ethnic group (and speaking of ethnic groupings in the USA is rather pointless anyway - it's all mixed up).
The sole reason is that China blocks any attempt to do so.
Anyway, I don't see how any of these are applicable to Georgia. Its independence from the USSR was recognized by all involved parties, including Russia, when it happened. It has been almost 20 years since, and Georgia has established itself as a self-sufficient sovereign country in its own right. Even going by your approach if ignoring historical claims in favor of pragmatic present-day arrangements, Georgia is certainly a de facto sovereign country.