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Comcast Discontinues Customers' USENET Service
An anonymous reader writes "Comcast has discontinued its provided usenet service, once provided to all its high speed customers. First with the cap put on its customers several years ago on amount of traffic provided as part of the customer high-speed package, as of September 16, the service is no longer provided.
Without fanfare, this bastion of the internet is being removed from the mainstream."
Does anybody still actually use usenet for anything other than the binary groups? I haven't touched it in a decade, mainly because the spam got so bad.
I gather this is about some kind of service which was provided, huh?
A provider gets paid for connectivity and extra services. As Comcast now discontinues one of their services, I guess the monthly bill gets a bit trimmed as well!
Or are they really the moneygrabbing bastards they are made out to be?
While it's sad to see universal USENET access go, it's been out of the mainstream for about a decade.
Monsters.
september is finaly over...
Bastion may be too strong a word for a service that most current internet users never used and don't understand. At the same time usenet plays a significant role in the history and development of the internet and it's sad when familiar, original stuff is deprecated or deleted.
Big deal. I'd say that 99% of Usenet users use it for the binary groups and they pay to get those through a provider that carries them. The non-binary groups have mostly been worthless for a long time now and that's all Comcast and similar providers carried. Those who can't live without comp.lang.perl or whatever can pay to get it, if they wish, through one of many providers so it's not like it's impossible to get Usenet now.
Or are they really the moneygrabbing bastards they are made out to be?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The September the finally ended.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
Wtf is that supposed to mean? I have zilch clue on how to parse that.. it seems to have zero correlation with the preceding and following sentences in the summary. I mean seriously, you don't really need a degree in Literature to write 3 decent, interconnected sentences..
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Just block any and all binaries (including HTML, thank you). That will bring down the amount of traffic by so much that it is not even relevant anymore. Also the amount of hardware that is needed is so much less.
The only thing you need to do is add a spam filter and you can have it running on a single machine. Retention of 30 days should be enough.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I am a comcast customer (the only high speed access in town) and I still have newsgroup access.
It is a sad day when ISPs toss out usenet. Usenet was and still is to a lesser degree what many of of got hooked on. A free, generally not moderated and everyone had access to it. Now, we digress into 1000's of web sites, /. included to exchange ideas. While /. is large enough with a wide audience and is good, most web based boards are horrid, operated by a ego driven owner and never even get my book marks.
My ISP, Shaw just outsourced usenet to someone who can't keep it running. I guess we too are gut off. And no, the google interface does not cut it.
Comcast is just looking better and better!
I have found memories of Usenet from the days before http. Back then there were around 2000 groups, and most of the participants were from academia. It (and IRC) was the first real place I can remember interacting with a global community, and it was quite enjoyable. Of course the self-control and self-regulation that kept the original Usenet usable went out the window as the public at large came online. The original intent of Usenet has been replaced by the online forum. So instead of a central repository of information, all properly categorized and viewable within a consistent client application, we now have the web-based forum. The information is spread far and wide across the internet. The interfaces vary vastly depending on the software and its configuration and theme. The information is spread out across redundant and competing sites. Information can suddenly be lost as a site goes down. Information can be deleted at a whim depending on who is running the site.
I certainly miss what Usenet once was.
Better known as 318230.
I mean come on , who wants to waste time searching out some website to post a question or find a discussion when you just need access to a news server and the lot is available immediately.
Anyone who doesn't use it just because they think its old fashioned and uncool because it doesn't have the "ooh shiny" factor is a blinkered idiot.
I just got an AOL account. I was told to come here. I have to start my computer and it's asking for the ANY key. My computer didn't com with one. What do I do?
if thats not mainstream I don't know what is. Just because you perhaps don't use it...
While we're at it, let's remove roads, you know, since they can also be used for illegal activity.
RSS and Google Reader for read-only access.
I still use usenet to ask programming questions. . I have loved to follow discussions on comp.lang.c and comp.std.c. I have learned a lot just looking at the archives. I had recently come across comp.lang.python and am excited about
I really think usenet still has a place on the web, a very useful place.
They've just removed a service from their lineup. A service I used to use all the time when I was on Comcast is now gone.
It boggles my mind. I was with Comcast back in the @Home days. Back then we had unlimited Usenet, and up to 4 email addresses. Service was 4 Mbits/768Kbits.
So, then @Home folds, and Comcast takes over the service directly and we go to:
1 email address
No Usenet
1.5 Mbits/128Kbps
for the same price.
Now, admittedly, it's gotten better since then. They upped the speed, increased the email addresses and gave you 2 GB on Giganews.
But now they're going down the path of taking service away. THere's no more Usenet, there's a 250 GB Bandwidth cap (which is plenty of bandwidth, I know...).
For what they offer for Internet, you should be paying $19.99, and not $55.00.
Things like this are what makes FIOS so attractive to geeks.
Andy
"The non-binary groups have mostly been worthless for a long time now"
Oh really? Which ones? I regularly post on 3 non binary groups and read 2 others and theres plenty of traffic. Perhaps you should try usenet one day instead of blowing smoke out your backside.
"Those who can't live without comp.lang.perl or whatever can pay to get it,"
Oh how magnanimus of you. Perhaps you'd like to pay extra to a 3rd party for using the web after you've already paid your ISP for net access too since you're clearly some kid who thinks the web=the internet
...removing the full text of the declaration of independence or the constitution or the bill of rights from history textbooks? It's what the internet was founded on, even if it's not used/remembered well. it's still dirt cheap to maintain, too.
this is just comcast's continuation of cutting corners wherever they can and making the users pay for it.
Outside of occasionally (once or twice a year) using Google Groups to search for something, I haven't used USENET in probably 8 or so years.
I remember every time I tried to use USENET, the groups I found were so riddled with spam it was impossible to use.
Personally, I say good riddance. It outgrew it
This is a significant alteration to the service provided and (certainly) comes with no reduction in cost. Somebody who wants out of their Comcast contract and has the requisite tenacity should be able to get out from under them and switch to somebody else.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
soon people will tell me I can't use Gopher anymore.
I've been on usenet since the early 90's, and still use it. It's one of the few places you can still go where there is no censorship at all, and no moderators with big egos to deal with. This sometimes produces flame wars and trolls, sure. But it also is the only place you can go and be completely honest about controversial subjects without fear of being banned by some politically-correct or biased moderator.
It's a shame that usenet has fallen into decline in recent years. But for those still interested in using usenet for discussion, it is still available (no matter who your ISP is) via Google Groups.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
is because USENET is now the new illegal filesharing tool. Do some googling on .nzb files and it'll make sense. This site will get you started: http://binaries4all.com/
I'll bet a nickel that this is what Comcast is flagging and shutting it down.
Since the Linux Kernel developers use USENET as the core of their development communications channel, I think declaring USENET obsolete is a bit premature.
...
Anyway, this might be the last thing I post, as I have just discovered that bad things can get transferred via HTTP, and so I have to block port 80
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
By the way Comcast is treating its 'customers' as criminals lately, I thought this might have read...
Customers Discontinue Comcast's Service
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Without fanfare, this bastion of the internet is being removed from the mainstream
Was it ever actually a bastion? It hasn't been mainstream in since, well...has it ever honestly? I guess that depends on your definition of mainstream and your timeline of the "internet", but I hope you see at least a sliver of my point. A lot of great (and some poor) anecdotes will pop up in the discussion about how people use or used to use usenet, but if you asked the mainstream internet user between 1999 and 2008 if they utilize usenet, the majority would probably say, "Huh".
Please don't use "umm" or "err" or "erm".
Whenever the telephone sanitizers get involved... So it goes. I miss the way usenet used to be, too. I just can't think of a way to bring it back again.
Comcast included access to 2 gigabytes of Usenet each month as part of its basic package for high speed Internet service. Now that Usenet will be dropped, the customer should expect to see a reduction in the fee for this basic service. But will he be given this discount? I would highly doubt it and Comcast will certainly be maintaining this portion of their revenue without actually earning it.
The average customer won't even notice the outrage but I am strongly considering switching to DSL because of this action.
But yeah.... Now I mainly use it for binaries. Web based forums have taken over most of USENET's intended usefullness... Too bad there isn't a central repository/interface for them.
Ya know....it might actually make USENET even more useful if it becomes pay-to-use.
It if cuts down on the spammers by forcing them to pay to use it, and make it easy to cut them off if they violate their providers subscription, then there is a theoretical improvement to USENET quality.
>>Also, I found my wife of 15+ years and counting, via usenet
-- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
The comcast usenet had a 2gb limit. Are people really going to miss that? I subscribe to giganews and have an unlimited limit.
NEED KNOW STAR RM PIC
That we're still using the NNTP feeds in its current state is absurd. The code is bloated, old, difficult to deploy... you know the rest.
What we need is a revamped system, utilizing modern technologies (XML, etc). The old code needs to be retired, desperately.
Clearly there is still a need and use for this type of service.
I agree with the other poster, Google Groups is riddled with crap... but it's still useful, at least.
I've got about half a dozen discussion groups that I subscribe to. A couple of them have a few hundred posts a week.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
USENET is one part of the Internet worth paying money for.
For years I used a newsgroup reader and Deja(later Google Groups) to post and respond to technical questions. The level of support on USENET has always been superb.
Should Google provide separate branches for searching their own "groups" and leave the previous USENET groups intact on another branch then the viability of the original system would remain.
Unfortunately spammers have rendered Google's groups nearly useless, yet USENET remains relevant.
So first they cap newsgroups, people keep paying.
Next they remove newsgroups and people keep paying.
Then they cap your internet access and people keep paying.
Soon they will remove internet access and hope people keep paying.
Just keep paying people, keep paying.
So not only is it not unlimited, but it doesn't even provide basic service.
I guarantee you that this isn't due to 'extra resources' its due to their ties with the media conglomerates.
Free speech just took another hit ( yes, i know they are a private company and it doesn't apply there, bla bla )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
For a moment I thought it said "Comcast discontinues Customer Service".
Had to re-read that again :-)
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
I have a music-related site so I gateway alt.bass, alt.guitar.bass and rec.music-makers.builders into my vBulletin forum.
The gateway runs every 20 minutes and my users can read and post in the newsgroups. They're indexed with my regular discussion forums so they can be searched as well.
I still hang around on alt.dbs.echostar and a couple of Linux newsgroups as well.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
september is finaly over...
Bring on the Eternal May!
This is probably the very reason they're shutting it down. I doubt there's any good argument for doing so from a cost-saving perspective.
This is one more way citizens...err...terrorists can freely communicate.
USENET was being used to distribute pirated software and other copyright protected digital content. The download restriction was being bypassed using utilities that could break-up and reassemble large files. It was slow, but it worked and stayed below the radar for a long time.
Comcast had already dropped newsgroups/usenet a long time ago and instead offered a free 2 gigs a month of giganews service (probably trying to save money since they didn't have to store anything on thier own servers).
Now they've dropped giganews as well.
I'm glad I dont use comcast, but I wish FIOS was in my area.
me too
You don;t come 'round these part to often, do ya?
RCN dropped newsgroup support last week without prior notice.
Comcast is taking steps to backtrack on their service agreements. They are looking at ways to provide much less service for the same price. Instead of spending monies to expand network capacity and access areas as required by law, they are trying to get by with what they have. They are breaching contract with hundreds of thousands of members. They are providing less. They are also taking steps to limit customer access to the Internet. Instead steering customers into services on their own network. Comcast would rather provide content to their customers and they are taking steps to see there is no alternative. This is anti-competitive behavior and also desperate behavior. The FCC must act to prevent this blatant monopolistic behavior. Comcast must lower their prices for providing less service. They must also stop charging illegal modem rental fees.
They're using their grammar skills there.
All you damn whipper snappers....in my day, you would access NNTP binary newsgroups via CLI, capturing the text as it scrolled by and saving to unencode to view.
And we LIKED it complicated. It made us look smarter than we were. So WHAT if it took two hours to get a half dozen nekkid pics.
Ah, those were the days....I'm off to fire up my Archie client.
WTF? Over?
Good. Get the Comcrappers out and the AOLers are already gone. A few more mainstream providers drop NNTP and it might finally be USEFUL again.
Wishful thinking, I know.
But its been on the decline. More and more online forums have been replacing it for discussion, tips, help. Unfortunately, there are no standards for those, each one seems to operate differntly, so they get searched and catalogued just like the rest of the web.
It makes it harder to seperate discussion-like content from page content, and on top of it, a lot of them now require logins and stuff, or turn off spidering completely to the threads inside their forum, meaning a lot of the information is pretty much lost forever.
The real problem is that Usenet is the medium which has the greatest claim to rights under the First Ammendment.
All of the weblogs like Slashdot and such may be prettier, easier to use, and *might* have a higher signal-to-noise (Usenet is even worse than Slashdot, though it doesn't seem possible.) ratio, but they all have an owning party who accepts responsibility for their contents. Usenet is unowned, merely hosted, and therefore comes closest to free speech, in the political sense of the word.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
The loss of USENET doesn't bother me at all. 10 years or so ago when I first got Internet access, it was kinda cool -- like I used to think IRC was kinda cool -- but as others here have said, it's riddled with SPAM now, and even the binaries groups are useless; they were rather useless to start with anyway, having to use clunky MIME64 encoding and breaking one file up over many posts, with almost invariably one of them missing. I'm just a touch sad to see it go but I think there are much better ways to do things now.
Lots of tears over Usenet, but what about Fidonet??
If a technology or mode of communication means soo much to us, then, given that Usenet is not owned by Comcast, what is to stop us from cooking up a free and useful solution that does work? If geeks created Usenet, why do we have to let Comcast "kill" it?
I know it is not an option everywhere, but I do know that where I live, we have more than Comcast as an option for ISP... if someone wants Usenet here, they can just vote with their feet and get a DSL line from Verizon or one of the local telcom providers. Speed may not be the same, but it is up to use to decide what is important - not Comcast. They can say, well we dropped Usenet, but speed is more important anyway... and we can say that, no, Usenet is more important, and switch ISPs.
So what's the alternative now for finding good groups to talk about OS's, security, code, etc? One of the great things about usenet was that everything was centralized in a way... you could go to usenet and find the topic you were interested in. These days, you just have crappy forums scattered about the web, and it's hard to find a good spot for a discussion on any topic (especially since most forums are full of ads and hard to read layouts, etc).
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So Comcast now provides less service for the same monthly fee. That's real progress.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Now where will all the Comcast customers get their free adult videos and warez? Won't somebody think of them??
I'm sure Comcast loves to be able to cut services without cutting revenue, but the thing that pushed them over the edge on this was law enforcement. State attorneys general have been pushing ISPs away from Usenet as a way to curb kiddie porn. Here's an article.
Of course this means they will reduce their monthly ISP charge since they are offering fewer services now, right?
Death by a thousand cuts is what is happening to your communications.
And claim they notified me in my last bill (buried somewhere in the ads for premium cable).
mark
I know you're kidding, but I really did use Archie when I first started using the Internet in 1993. As an Canadian far from home in Indonesia, I missed my friends and family and hoped they'd get on email or something on this newfangled "network of networks". I used pine, archie, some news reader I don't remember and eventually lynx for the newfangled "world wide web," all on a vt50 terminal emulation program on a DOS command line, and later OS/2.
Those were the days...lol
The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
As I am sure that the cost savings from Comcast's move here will be passed down to use subscribers. Thanks Comcast, you rock!
And just because you do use it, doesn't make it mainstream.
Usenet is totally obsolete. It was designed around assumptions that haven't applied for a decade, maybe two. Modems are no longer used for server-to-server connections, and are rapidly disappearing for client-server connections (and obviously don't exist at all for Comcast users!), so the distribution model no longer makes any technical sense. What with spam, flamewars, and fancruft, the percentage of useful content has dropped to the single digits. And since all data goes to all servers, even if nobody reads it, it's not terribly efficient.
USENET survives for one reason: inertia. People have their hacked up clients and filters that they've used since Jimmy Carter was President, and don't want to change.
Even if you could convince me that you have a serious need to access Usenet, you couldn't convince me that Comcast has an obligation to carry it. I suppose the overhead for them is relatively small, but even so, it's obviously out of proportion to the benefit to their customers. Why should they serve up gigabytes of data that are only accessed by a tiny proportion of their customers, any one of whom only follows a few of the thousands of feeds.
In any case, it's not like Comcast is blocking Usenet. They just not providing free feeds any more. You can still subscribe to feed services very cheaply, or you can use Google Groups for free.
None of which should be interpreted as defending Comcast's various abuses of their semi-monopoly status. This just isn't one of them.
I'll admit I'm a bit clueless about USENET since I never tried it but I'm wondering... Couldn't we just host it as a distributed network like Freenet?
I get a monthly $9.95 per month dial-up service from http://newsguy.com/ and it includes 3 GB of usenet. Includes pop email and web space. Most people just use it as a back-up ISP.
/10GB, but that seems pricey if you are not downloading binaries.
They also provide a basic individual USENET for $7.95 Month
I have no financial interest in NEWSGUY.COM, other than as a customer. If you think USENET is out of date, I started out with FIDO NET! Anybody remember that?
Old Guy
They just pulled the plug on usenet on June 23, 2008. Though I've been reasonably happy with my service, this really pissed me off.
It's not like I have less access to stuff. Now though, instead of downloading DVD images from locally-run servers, I'll be making Time Warner pay bandwidth fees all the bits I want. This really doesn't help their balance sheets at all.
If you think USENET is out of date, I started out with FIDO NET! Anybody remember that?
Yep, the BBS I ran carried a FidoNet feed as far back as the late 80s - updated nightly even, unlike the other local BBS that updated every 3 days.
Now, get off my lawn! ;-)
My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
Also on facebook as: DroppingAcidDaleBewan
Great timestamp verbage on Motzarella:
"Today is September, 5500 1993, the september that never ends".
If you're new here, you should know about Eternal_September.
Comast has restricted groups for some time, and we all knew that this total shutoff of Usenet for Comcast was coming sooner or later.
So what? Comcast's stripped down Usenet was practically useless anyway.
Use a service like Easynews.com for Usenet instead. I've been with them for years and they're great.
>But every web forum sucks as a web forum,
>this is a hard and fast rule.
Really?
Do you maintain that this would apply to a forum on Microsoft vacuum cleaners? I highly doubt it . . .
hawkk
This means that people who have absolutely no knowledge of the medium will seldom get to Usenet.
I used to post to Usenet all the time and I didn't even know how to spell frikkin 'Usenet', much less know how to get there!
As a matter of fact, I have no frikkin' clue where I am now.
Now, where the hell are the hockey stories!?!?!?
The article summary says...
The page linked in the article says...
My comments here are my own; I do not speak for my employer.
Actually, only partially....but you bring up an interesting recollection of having to load Trumpet Winsock on Windows 3.11 since there wasn't a SLIP provider included. Also, I can't remember the ISP I used, the first one was Compuserve, the second was a long distance call to a free SLIP orpvider in Chicago I think...I just paid for the phone call. The next one was Delphi I think....I can't remember for sure. That's where the text captures occured.
I also remember fingering a soft drink machine at RIT to see if it was low on Coke...and thinkig it was cool. I remember my wife asking why I cared since I didn't go to RIT. What the hell does she know? I was dialing long distance to ask a freakin machine if it was low on stock....of course it's worth it.
WTF? Over?
I discovered slashdot ON usenet, at the 'scary devil monastery'. There are still groups I want to return to, and I wonder if they're even still around. I do a webcomic now which also runs a serialized novel updating daily. I want to bump elbows with my writer friends on Usenet again, now that I'm committed to doing what they do, daily. Usenet absolutely still matters, for any group of people who find community through talking to each other. Go reread Russ Albery's Rant again.
My account in the Modesto area shows:
The Comcast Newsgroups service will be discontinued on 10/25/2008.
We apologize for the any inconvenience.
Comcast Newsgroups Usage Meter
You have used 44.1 MB (megabytes) this period.
(I don't use it much).
I found this via the "My Account" link and then "Comcast Newsgroups usage meter".
When will Comcast add an overall (non just NNTP) bandwidth meter so I know how close I am to the 250gb cap?
You mean besides Tim?
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
I routinely monitor comp.risks, comp.lang.perl,
and alt.comp.software.financial.quicken. The
latter because users make useful comments to
one another; unlike the Intuit web site FAQ's
which are so cheery, and so useless...
oooOOooo BBS sounds scary, but it's just a legend right? Just like dragons! Next can you tell us the legend of the red dragon? That's my favorite!
Mod me up, mod me down, do your worst you modding clown.
I despair. Anyone who doesn't actively participate in NNTP then please hand your geek card in at the door on your way out.
We had that, and some Mech Game, and an Empire game.. and downloading. I got the entire Doom game.. Never killed that dragon though.. I was a noob.
Its like seeing a car you sold 10 years ago drive past.
Is that thing STILL RUNNING ? Wow...
I'm curious, I've seen your signature around a few times and was wondering what prompts you to have it. It has been a while since I've read 1984, but I've never noticed blatant discrepancies you allude to.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
That's a dumb thing for the government to do. If someone is dumb enough to post obscenity to usenet, there's a good chance they're dumb enough to do so without covering their tracks so they can be found and prosecuted. If usenet goes away, the folks dedicated to that stuff will all move to Freenet (or one of the alternatives) where they can spread their stuff with impunity. The problem will get *worse,* won't it? Or am I missing something?
Not "discrepancies", ignorant nonsense. "1984" and "Big Brother" have become catch phrases for entities, especially governments, that spy on and/or micromanage the lives of individuals. That sort of describes one aspect of the book, but there's a lot more to it than that. And many people who obviously only know the book through these catch phrases talk knowingly it as if that were all it were about.
For example, everybody "knows" that the fictional government in 1984 spies on all its citizens and has endless rules for regulating their behavior. In the actual book, Oceania's rulers basically ignores the "proles," who make up 90% of the population, except to make the odd troublemaker or gangster disappear, and to use various cultural influences (including drugs and pornography) to encourage a passive, indifferent attitude.
And there are no repressive laws, because there are no laws at all! (Though the proles are under the impression that the drugs and porn that are used to control them are actually illegal.) Far from being a vast, bureaucratic state, Oceania is a anarchic, barely-governed mess where nobody knows exactly what's going on. Despite the title of the book, even the actual year is uncertain.
And did I mention the government-sponsored riots? Soviet Russia it ain't.
The protaganist, Winston Smith, works in the Ministry of Truth where (of course) he makes up lies. Except he himself has no idea of the truth behind the lies he creates. For example, he publishes reports that shoe production has exceeded targets, even though he's seen statistics that show production has fallen far short. Thing is, Smith is convinced that the statistics he's seen are themselves bogus, and nobody actually knows how many shoes are being made.
Now, Smith is under constant surveillance. But that's only because he's part of the "Outer Party" the junior members of INGSOC (usually just called The Party) who run things. They're bossed around by the "Inner Party" who have only slightly more privacy than he does. His behavior is tightly controlled, but though intimidation and "groupthink", not through repressive laws.
Smith is a sort of half-assed dissident who secretly opposes the rule of INGSOC. But not as secretly as he imagines. It turns out that the Inner Party knows all about him. And this is where most people's understanding of the book goes really off the beam. Because it's widely interpreted as a satire of the USSR. But if the Soviets knew about somebody who was working to overthrow him, they'd just haul him in and shoot him, with a show trial if the person was widely known.
That's not what happens to Smith. Oh, he does eventually get his show trial and execution, but not before, he's put through a brutal process designed to "cure" him. What's his condition? Well, his understanding of reality is at odds with the Party's so he's obviously delusional! The process works: the last words in the book are "He loved Big Brother." The Soviets were often accused of "mind control" but they never managed to take it that far!
From what I know of British history, the society described in 1984 is a satire of the the left-wing political theories that were trendy during and shortly after WW II. Orwell took these ideas and carried them to their logical (and absurd) extreme.
One other thing that most people "know" about Orwell was that he was against all things left wing. He was indeed very critical of the Soviets and their sympathizers and apologists. And his scathing description of Communist tactics during the Spanish Civil War are often quoted by the Right. But despite his differences with the Left, Orwell was in fact, a socialist who had strong opinions about the plight of working class Brits.
It's been a while since I read it, but I recall there was no execution. In fact, I vaguely remember that close to the end he got together with his former lover, only to find that he couldn't love her anymore after all the torture and deceit. They've been assimilated. Sorry about the spoiler! A very good read. So much to be the (scrambled and entangled) source of one of my passwords :). Give it a shot, crackers!
To do list for Windows
"Spoiler" doesn't really apply to this kind of novel. If you have the slightest doubt about how it's going to turn out, you probably don't want to read it.
You're right about Smith still being alive when the novel ends. But it's clear that he's going to be tried and executed in the near future. In his zombie-like "rehabilitated" state, he's even looking forward to it. I just compressed this sequence of events a little for simplicity.
For some reason, I have a feeling that a super-majority of USENET postings are not done using free Comcast access... hence, this is not news ;)
Next to last paragraph of the book:
He was back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The longhoped-for bullet was entering his brain.
I disagree with your interpretation. There is no doubt that Nineteen Eighty-Four was meant to present the totalitarian state brought to its extreme. The fact that most of the population is ignored by the party does not change this fact and simply shows that the party was powerful enough to render these people irrelevant. The important people are the only ones that need to be kept under control.
If you think that the USSR or any other totalitarian regime was different then you are wrong. There too, the low populace did not really matter at all, as long as they were kept relatively happy and working. I could turn your sig around and say: "please live in a totalitarian state before talking about totalitarian states" (For the record, I have).
Could be interpreted as expressing his state of mind, and thus not strictly literal, though.
deus does not exist but if he does
There is no doubt that Nineteen Eighty-Four was meant to present the totalitarian state brought to its extreme.
I never said it didn't. I'm arguing with the common assumption that 1984 is about a specific real-world totalitarian state.
There's actually a passage where O'Brian basically calls the Soviets wimps who didn't know how to run a totalitarian state effectively.
If you think that the USSR or any other totalitarian regime was different then you are wrong.
Huh? You mean all totalitarian states are identical? They all speak Russian, and all persecute the professional and entrepreneurial classes? Get real.
I guess what you're really trying to say is that totalitarianism is evil, and that's all we need to know about them. I don't disagree with the evil part, but the inference that other details don't matter is a fallacy, designed to support willful ignorance.
And willful ignorance is evil too. In fact, it's one of the cornerstones of any totalitarian state. (INGSOC slogan: "Ignorance is Strength".) If Germans had been a little more cognizant about the different paths to a totalitarian state, they might not have elected a party whose main appeal was that it seemed a good bet for holding off Soviet totalitarianism, and which then preceded to found a totalitarian state that easily rivaled the USSR for repression and mass murder.
Nor is this a dead issue. There are folks in the U.S. ruling party who believe that multi-party democracy and freedom to dissent is outdated.
Hmm, interesting. It's been such a long time since I've read the book (I read it when I was 12 or 13), I'd forgotten about a few of the details you mention. Plus, I probably missed a few things entirely. I should probably go back and reread it.
Thanks for the review.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
And if you were more considerate, you'd give that value in hex, so it wouldn't be such a pain to decode!
I have to admit it's been almost 30 years since I read the book, but that was always my take on it, too. Smith knew he would eventually be executed, but it hadn't happened yet.
Probably time for a re-read since so much of what he describes exists in the U.S., even if most of them are at a vastly smaller degree. I don't mean so much the political situation but the mentality of doublethink, Newspeak, the memory of which jumped out at me as soon as I'd heard about "political correctness" with which is shares a great deal, "flexible" history, and unfortunately, perpetual war against a vague enemy.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Try pasting it into: http://www.geek-notes.com/tools/17/text-to-binary-translator/
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