Apple Censors App Store Rejection Notices

isBandGeek() writes "After a few reasonable App Store bans, such as the ones on I Am Rich and NetShare, developers started complaining about excessive restrictions on applications like Podcaster and MailWrangler, supposedly because they provided 'duplicate functionality.' In response, Apple rubbed salt in their wounds by slapping non-disclosure agreements on application rejection notices. Now developers are not even allowed to tell their fanbase that Apple decided to withhold approval for an application. Is Apple confident that Google's open platform Android won't be much of a threat?"

Comments

well

[stoolpigeon]

apparently they are not worried

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[ShieldW0lf]

Gee, this makes me want to rush out and develop for that platform. Right after I finish strapping the wings on to this pig...

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[electrictroy]

>>>slapping non-disclosure agreements on application rejection notices.

Apple can not arbitrarily take-away my right to free speech. This means nothing if I don't sign the NDA.

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[XxtraLarGe]

You sign the NDA by default if you download & install the developer tools.

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[the_fat_kid]

true, but you did sign a NDA when you became a registered apple iPone dev.
it sucks but it's not quite as crazy as "by reading this message you agree to the terms of our NDA"
they aren't just slapping this on now. they slapped it on you up front.

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[CastrTroy]

Do you sign something, or is it a click through EULA?

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[v1]

I wonder if there are ways around that, like if you download the sdk and write an app, and then someone else submits it to the store? I wonder if the sdk agreement is worded to transfer like that?

Also I wonder if Apple would be foolish enough to consider actually taking action, surely that would initiate the Streisand Effect?

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[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

But if you don't agree to the NDA, then you are obviously going to loose your developer membership, which is required to get your apps in the store. You may not agree that the whole situation is fair, but they sure as hell have the legal right to do what they're doing here -- they have a whole team of good lawyers to make sure of that.

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[JoeMerchant]

As long as you NEVER want to sell ANYTHING through the Apple store EVER again, you can flaunt the NDA and probably get away with it.

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[Idaho]

Please to be explaining how I "sign something by default" by "insert any course of action not involving explicitly signing the NDA"

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[Don_dumb]

But that's the beauty of 'Open' and why Apple are (hopefully) shooting themselves in the foot with this kind of tactic.
You see most of the critisms that article put at the Android phone were of particular features not included or limited, if the Android does what it claims to then people can simply write an app that performs that feature and there is nothing stopping them releasing it. However, if that feature is lacking on the iPhone or deliberately lacking(many of the critisms were also true of the iPhone) then Apple can prevent it being released.

Therefore the Android has the unrestricted potential of fulfilling all of the lacking features whereas Apple will prevent the iPhone from fulfilling that same potential.

I like many Apple products but this is my classic annoyance - they could be so much better if Apple didn't hold them back so much.

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[bloobloo]

Well, I guess that could theoretically prevent you from using the SDK again. But that would be all it could even conceivably do.

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[larry bagina]

In order to get rejected (or accepted) from the apple store, you need to pay $99 to join the iphone developer progeam, which involves accepting the terms. While there is no pen and ink signature, you need to unambiguously accept the terms.

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[poetmatt]

That may sound nice and all, but it won't necessarily hold up in court. I'd like to see developers go against it and show that. This is more like suppression of developers, but apparently apple doesn't know when to make a buck off their own fanbase.

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[geordie_loz]

IANAL but is it possible that if you passed it to a third party who was not under the NDA that you'd be breaching the NDA?

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[elrous0]

It doesn't have to hold up in court. Merely the threat of a lawsuit from the wealthy and powerful Apple will silence most small developers. Sure, you would probably win the case in the end, but only after paying lawyers a small fortune to defend you against Apple. And where are you going to get that kind of money if you're just some programmer or tiny company?

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[Lumpy]

My company was poised to start developing for the iPhone until I brought this to their attention at the last staff meeting.

The entire iPhone dev project has been put on hold because of this.

Apple had better figure out how to pull their heads out of their arse because lots of companies thinking of this will instantly back off like we have.

I know I was going to write some apps, but I'm not going to pay $99.00 to be blessed to write freeware and then have my apps rejected.

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[samkass]

1. You agree to the NDA when you pay your $99 bill and join the program. If they accept your electronic "signature" for charging $99 to your credit card, it's hard to argue that that same agreement doesn't apply to the other contract involved in the same transaction. And taking away the ability to charge a credit card online would kind of put a damper on ecommerce.

2. From what I understand, these correspondences were ALWAYS covered by that same NDA. It's just that developers, either through ignorance or anger, violated the NDA and posted the rejection letters in the past. This is simply Apple reminding the developers what they agreed to. If you don't like it, don't join the program... there are alternatives (none good ones, but they're there.)

3. So 4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far. 0.4%. I don't think it's time to panic yet.

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[ozphx]

I say "Hey Idaho, if you want to use these tools, then you have to promise not to talk about any emails you get from me regarding them."

You say "Sure, man". Then later you try to claim that you didn't really mean the bit about not talking about emails from me. Hey, its an agreement. No backsies. Don't like it, GTFO.

Either that or you can claim you took the software from their website without the agreement. IIRC that opens you up to all the nasties of Illegal Access To Another Mans Internets (5 years jail) or Digital Trespass As In Bits And Bytes And Not Really Finger In The Ass, But You May Get That With (2 years in jail).

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[Clarious]

They are not afraid of T-Mobile G1, not Android. Android will have better phone that use it in the future.

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[ckaminski]

That's utter bullshit. Make that same argument when Windows Live! is the only way to get your software installed into your customers PCs. A platform monopoly is still a monopoly (no matter how small), and this is clearly anti-competitive. Apple needs to be taken to task for it.

<quote>
but I'm just tired of people whining about technology products not living up to their ever-so-important expectations.
</quote>

You can be tired of it, but as one of those Whingers, I'm pissed that my technology is restricted or limited at every turn, either by lack of imagination (the openness of the PC platform proved something) or by pathetic vendor lock-down in an effort to control quality or competition.

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[SQLGuru]

The suggestion was the reverse of that transaction.

1. Download SDK
2. Develop application
3. Transfer app to 3rd party who *IS* under the NDA.

My guess is that they would be the one rejected and they would be NDA'ed from telling you why your app was rejected. If you were told, then the 3rd party would be up the brown river with Apple.

Layne

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[edumacator]

Sorry, hit overrated instead of funny. I'm going to post to cancel the mod.

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[OeLeWaPpErKe]

They would, of course, also be NDA'd from telling you your app was rejected. Apple could argue that that means they've gotta pay for breaking the NDA by disclosing to a non-signatory party.

Therefore any such intermediaries would quickly die out.

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[OeLeWaPpErKe]

... and apple could be awarded damages ...

This is certainly not good PR.

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[SenseiLeNoir]

So 4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far. 0.4%. I don't think it's time to panic yet.

4000 apps, which the majority are thin wrappers around web pages, or the like vs some few (interesting) apps.

The apps that got "rejected" are exactly the ones I would have wanted (bar the i am rich one). I have WANTED an app that can download podcasts straight to my iPod Touch. Currently I use my Nokia N95 (which has a podcast application built in) do do that, but its screen is not as nice as the iPod.

The second thing is, Apple is charging money to "join" the program (even for freeware developers), yet are not 100% clear on their rejection policies (which allows them to revise their policies), and no scope for refund.

I am certain this will fall foul of some UK/European laws, due to its vague nature, and some false advertising by Apple, in terms of their rallying calls for developers (yes I heard them). Finally not being able to disclose the reasons for rejection can also fall short of some laws, as reasons for rejections can help other developers avoid mistakes, or better asses their own projects.

If Apple wants to keep secret its reasons for rejecting applications, then it could be equated that Apple are kind of performing a "lottery" of sorts. That also could fall short of some laws.

Even Symbian (which itself is stricter than J2ME/ Windows Mobile/Android) doesnt do these shenigans.

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[darjen]

I would really like to develop an app for my ipod touch that will allow me to preview music with headphones while creating a playlist and playing it with an rca out from the dock connector. I can easily see apple banning it though, so fuck that.

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[BodhiCat]

Yes, Jobs is a control freak. He restricted development on the early Apple platforms, so that Apple could develop its own applications and that is one of the reasons PC's and Windows took over the computer market. Do you think at some point he will learn his lesson?

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[0100010001010011]

No, you don't loose anything. Nothing what so ever is loosened if you don't agree to the NDA. The first 1000 times I saw this, fine. What is so difficult about he difference between loose and lose? Seriously people. If you want to sound interesting and informative and not an AOL OMG NFW BBQ BBL leet speaker, get at least the most common parts of the language down.

And I heard from a non-native speaking friend of mine it's only the native speakers that screw it up. Because the way they think of words in there[sic] head, loose would never accidentally come out as lose.

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[kaosfury]

Yes, and how does this apply to EXISTING developers? Putting it in the email rejection notice can not be binding in and of itself because you never agreed to it. They are just crying like little babies because someone with real complaints is making them public. Shame on Apple.

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[PolarBearFire]

Not worried? History is full of examples where Apple is the first comer and gets overtaken due to their sheer retardability(it's a real word, look it up) The iPhone has 2-3% of the market, and everyone treats it as it owned 97-98% of the market. Apple prides itself on controlling it's products, the iPhone in all likelyhood will not see double digit market share due to increased competition. I'm not comvinced that Google has created a strong competitor but the potential is there. PS Not crapping on the iPhone at all, it's probably the most fun phone in North America(not saying much tho)

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[Maudib]

Why do people referring to the G1 as if it is the end all be all of Android? It is a single implementation, and the first one at that.

Just because Apple wshouldn't fear the G1, doesn't mean they shouldn't fear the Android OS.

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[kaosfury]

Did you? This is a new addition, not in the original agreement. How does this really affect those who have been developing?

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[seann]

The developer account was already on the macintosh that I bought off this 16 year old kid who had a store bought credit card who got the developers license.

uht oh.

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[MrNiceguy_KS]

Seems like your app would be really handy for DJs. Was that what you had in mind?

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[Anonymous Coward]

"Flout", not "flaunt".

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[tmosley]

Clicking a EULA is pretty damn far from signing a NDA.

Apple needs to get real. Unless they have a physical signature on file, they'll have no standing in any court outside of Imaginationland.

That is pretty obvious, even to me, a lowly IANAL.

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[tmosley]

Wow, accidently hitting the wrong button while modding is +4 Interesting on Slashdot? We're more boring than I ever imagined.

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[darjen]

yep, precisely. would be nice to not have to lug the laptop around...

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[electrictroy]

Precisely.

A few years ago when Paypal was taken to court, most of the "user agreement" was thrown-out since it violated state or federal laws. The judge decided that consumers can not sign-away their legal protections. Apple's unsigned or shrinkwrapped NDA would also be thrown-out for similar reasons.

And to be honest, even if I was legally-bound to the NDA, I'd still disclose the whys and wherefores of my application rejection. From time-to-time, liberty must be protected with a little civil disobedience in order to protect one's rights, privileges, and freedoms.

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[NDPTAL85]

What you, and many geeks don't understand is thats not really a selling point. Having to cobble together features on your own is not what normal people are looking for. Apple's iPhone is much more suited to a non-technical person's needs than Android is.

I'm not disputing that for you Android may be the better choice, but so many geeks assuming that because its the optimum choice for them that it will be for everyone else as well. One man's choice+freedom is 100 other men's complexity+confusion.

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[The End Of Days]

I'm not entirely certain how your legal opinion has any validity at all, no matter how "obvious" it seems to you.

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[3dr]

I, too, have been working on three apps, and have put them on hold.

The seemingly arbitrary blocking/rejection of certain apps makes me wonder just what their criteria is. For some, such as the net tethering application, it is obvious (direct competition/avoidance of AT&T's minutes plans). But for other apps, what is the criteria?

It is starting to look like the iphone app market is closing, because if Apple is declaring certain apps to be "duplicate functionality", then how can competition have a role?

The developers who were first to the store have all the advantage right now. I.e., timing, not functionality or merit, is key. Apple should clarify exactly what they are doing, which policies they are employing to make this determination.

Maybe I'll just write some "flashlight" apps -- those always get accepted. /rolls eyes

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[kripkenstein]

So 4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far. 0.4%. I don't think it's time to panic yet.

4 that we know of. It's possible that a large number of other developers who had their apps rejected actually did read the NDA they had agreed to, and are fuming in silence.

That's the whole idea of NDAing this stuff: To keep the extent of the problem a secret. So you can't say "it's only 4, nothing to see here."

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[The End Of Days]

It's not good PR, but it only really reinforces the opinions of people who were railing against the iPhone development program in the first place. I predict the effect will be minimal. I also predict that things will change because *gasp* the market is competitive. Yay capitalism.

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[Alsee]

4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far.

Wow. I had no idea that Slashdot had an official policy of hunting down and publishing on the front page every single iPhone app rejection.

-

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[The End Of Days]

Does your non-native speaking friend natively speak every language except English? If not, then logically speaking, their pronouncements on the all non-native speakers of English are utterly meaningless.

You might be good at putting together a useless rant on a simple grammar mistake, but you fail at logic.

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[iphayd]

Because to support the Android OS, you must support all types of hardware that it runs on.

Here are the options...
- Support the lowest common denominator (P1) - no multitouch, even on multitouch android-based phones. Apple doesn't worry.
- Ignore the P1 - So your app will work on _some_ android phones, but not others. Consumers get confused. Apple doesn't worry.
- Create a single touch, and a multi touch version of your app. The UI development suddenly doubles. Developing an app for Android now has a higher cost than the iPhone. Consumers get confused. Apple doesn't worry.

While I am deeply disturbed by the behavior of Apple, and hope that the courts compel them to change their minds, much like they did for Verizon recently; I can't see Android being much more than a spot in history, by Google's design.

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[bluesk1d]

Ugh... This has nothing to do with free speech. The 1st amendment ONLY applies to the government infringing on your rights. That goes for the rest of the bill of rights as well. I am so sick of this "free speech!" catch all everyone uses anytime they aren't allowed to do something. Unless you are being charged with a crime, it's irrelevant.

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[TheRealMindChild]

"lose" and "loose" are a tricky pair because they operate contrary to pretty much the rest of English. The difference between the two is an extra "o", but it doesn't change the "o" sound at all. It changes the "s" sound. And when your fingers are operating faster than your brain, "loose" seems to be a more appropriate spelling of "lose" anyway (because the general rule being that "lose" sound like "low-ze"), so our brain tends to skip over it in a rush.

kthx

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[l0ungeb0y]

From Apple when they are made to pay your attorney's fees.
That is assuming that you win however.

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[electrictroy]

>>>They're not taking away your right to free speech. It's their platform, nobody is shoving the iPhone down your throat...

Oh really? So if I open my brand-new Iphone and discover a NDA inside that says, "By purchasing this item, you the customer agree not to complain, post, email, or otherwise disclose that you are unhappy with its operations.....", are you still going to still tell me my Right to Free Speech is not being violated? (After all, it's their platform, nobody forced me to buy it.)

Forget that. I'm going to complain as is my right as a customer, and if Apple wants to sue me in court, I'll be happy to show up with five lawyers trailing behind me. (After all, my great-great-grandfather picked-up a musket and shot at Redcoats to protect his freedoms; the least I can do is spend a few bucks to hire lawyers to protect my own.)

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[edumacator]

What can I say...I'm just an interesting guy.

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[greenreaper]

Now you know.

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[zubikov]

Riiight. You go ahead and sue Apple for some icon not appearing on your cellphone. Somehow battling for an open cell phone platform doesn't speak volumes about the freedom that your grandfather fought for. The iPhone is a toy, you are making it out to be the constitution. The whole redcoats thing is a little over the top, don't you think?

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[azgard]

Openness of platform is not a selling point, it is a hidden advantage. Look at Wikipedia - almost no one, who uses it, contributes to it. Quite the contrary - the fact that anyone can contribute repels people from using it. So it's not the selling point. But the fact that Wikipedia contains all the information is the selling point, and reason why people use it. And it contains all the information precisely because everybody can contribute. The same goes for software platforms.

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[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Exactly. And yet there are people who are counting on lawyers (a specific black lawyer) to "change things".

One might wonder, what a lawyer, any lawyer, would "change" if someone distributed say an "unauthorized" iphone app. Probably the "change" would be to sleeping location of said individual, changing it to a state-sponsored site close to "bubba" to be exact.

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[Shai-kun]

Honestly though: just about half of English works operates contrary to pretty much the rest of English. I mean, "ghoti"?

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[tmosley]

Well, I am a business man, and work for a corporation that deals regularly with NDAs and IP. If there is no signature, it's just a statement, and won't hold up in court. We have had lots of companies try to steal our IP, so I am fairly well versed in the intricacies of such agreements, and the implications of not having one.

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[Alioth]

The market will take Apple to task for it. The phone market isn't anything like the PC desktop market. In the PC desktop market, there is one hugely dominant player who can easily crush anyone they don't like merely by the act of bundling (see IE vs Netscape). The phone market is much more healthy: at the moment, you've got Symbian, Windows Mobile, the iPhone and now Android platforms - 4 major platforms. Call it 5 if you count J2ME for smaller devices. If you don't like one of them, there are lively markets in the others that you can make applications for. The iPhone has nothing even approaching a monopoly.

I don't own an iPhone and I won't because of the way development is being handled. But if I want to make mobile apps, that's hardly an impediment because I have other platforms to choose from with much better terms for developers.

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[slapout]

"wealthy and powerful Apple"

Wow. There's a phrase you wouldn't have heard a few years ago.

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[vux984]

And to be honest, even if I was legally-bound to the NDA, I'd still disclose the whys and wherefores of my application rejection. From time-to-time, liberty must be protected with a little civil disobedience in order to protect one's rights, privileges, and freedoms.

Its not even civil disobedience to "violate" a contract. Its just breaking a contract that might expose you to being sued for damages or other remedies specified in the contract.

There's nothing ILLEGAL about breaking a contract.

Citizens really need to learn this.

So if someone decides to break the NDA and publish their rejection letters, Apple will probably terminate their membership and that's about it. Apple's going to have a hell of a time showing that they were materially damaged by someone saying that their app got rejected.

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[Dun Malg]

Face it, if Apple fully opened the OS for the iPhone, it would turn to crap in a matter of weeks. The platform would lose its integrity.

WTF does that mean? The platform would lose its integrity? My HTC TYTN II has its "integrity" despite Windows Mobile 6 being open to development. My brother's Nokia running Symbian has its "integrity" too. When you say "integrity", do you mean "some people's iPhones would have things running on them that might not look or feel the way Steve Jobs wants the iPhone to look and feel"? You're an idiot.

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[Maudib]

How is this any different then the world of symbian apps or the other cell OSs. The mistake is that analysts keep referring to Android as a consumer product, when in reality its just a very open google friendly platform that different cell companies will use to implement their own products. Comparing it to the iPhone is like comparing apples to an erector set.

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[sexconker]

If you want to sound interesting and informative and not LIKE an AOL OMG NFW BBQ BBL leet speaker, get at least the most common parts of the language down.

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[lysergic.acid]

yea, but that's not how the legal system works--it's how it should work, but not how it does in reality.

for instance, i used to work at an indie record label here in SoCal that i later left for personal reasons. a few days ago my boss dropped by my apartment to say hi and ask me to help him with a problem that recently arose. now, amongst the label's back catalog is a now defunct band called Acid Bath, and they have a popular song called Dr. Seuss is Dead. when the album containing this track (When the Kite String Pops) was originally published, the band spelled the title incorrectly as Dr. _Suess_ is Dead and that's what was printed on all the track listings. seeing as "Dr. Seuss" is a trademarked name, my boss decided to play it safe and keep the misspelling all these years (the album was released in 1994).

oddly enough, after i left the company, my boss decided to have the spelling mistake corrected. so what happened was that the estate of Theodor Seuss Geisel (Dr. Seuss), or their lawyers rather, found some Acid Bath merchandise being auctioned off on e-bay--we actually printed a Dr. Seuss is Dead t-shirt with original artwork by a friend of the band. the e-bay seller apparently rolled on the record label, and the lawyers came after my boss and demanded that he take all of the Dr. Seuss is Dead/When the Kite String Pops merchandise off the site, and also hand over all the leftover stocks of the albums/DVDs/hoodies/t-shirts/posters/etc.

despite the fact that this is a legal parody, and that the band really only makes a single reference to Dr. Seuss in in the actual lyrics, the Geisel estate has threatened to take legal action against my boss and his company if their demands aren't met. frankly, i don't see any legal basis for their claims. this is clearly a protected form of trademark fair use. but the reality of the matter is, the Geisel estate is a multi-billion-dollar corporation, and my boss, though a rich man, simply doesn't have the money to take them on in court. the legal feels alone would force him to settle out of court.

so it doesn't matter if a claim is legally grounded or not. it only matters that the party making the claim/demands is a multi-billion-dollar corporation and the defense is not. like most people facing a legal threat from a large corporation, your only real option is just to meet their demands unless you want to be bankrupted by court/lawyer fees.

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[lysergic.acid]

but they wouldn't have to tell you anything. if you ask them to submit the App, and it never shows up on the store, then you know it's been rejected. they didn't break the NDA, and you never signed the NDA.

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[RMH101]

Isn't there a hardware restriction that stops you outputting different audio to headphone out and line out simultaneously? You'd need a 4 channel audio device in the iPhone...

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[Dun Malg]

Create a single touch, and a multi touch version of your app. The UI development suddenly doubles. Developing an app for Android now has a higher cost than the iPhone.

Single touch and multi-touch are not that far apart conceptually. You're overstating the difficulty of dealing with more than one set of x-y coordinates in a UI. An app that work with multi-touch will also work with single.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Your fingers are not connected to your larynx, they are controlled by the part of your brain which knows how to write and spell, not the part which speaks. So his repeatedly typing the wrong word suggests poor spelling skills. Or do your fingers automatically type "OW!" when you stub your toe?

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[Pincus]

And where are you going to get that kind of money if you're just some programmer or tiny company?

Google. They would have a lot to gain, PR and market share-wise and already have the legal team on retainer.

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[ckaminski]

If that were true, as others have said, Windows Mobile would be crap, and Palm would be crap. Well, Palm is getting to be crap because it refuses to update the platform, but not because of the 3rd Party software...

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[Anonymous Coward]

So 4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far. 0.4%. I don't think it's time to panic yet.

That's so wrong. Forget about the unknown ones, there's many more than 4 known ones. There's atleast 2 or 3 more mentioned in this firehouse article.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on where you live, NDAs may not be legal. You could sign it and still do whatever you want.

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[aztektum]

What if you paid the $99 before they had such a requirement. Do you get a refund if they change the terms and you no longer agree to them?

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[Anonymous Coward]

This all just seems like a big cash grab from developers.

Business plan:

step 1. Developers will have an idea for an app that does X on the iphone
Step 2. Developers will pay US "apple" 99 bucks
step 3. We (apple )refuse to allow app that does X and won't let Developer tell anyone that they can't make an app that does X on the iphone.
Step 4. Take 99 bucks from another dev that is making an app that does X on the iphone.

Lather Rinse Repeat!

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[Anonymous Coward]

"more functionality" != "so much better"

Classic misunderstanding when judging the quality of a product.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Let's snap you back to reality from your Kool-Aid-induced delusion for a moment. The iPhone was open from almost the beginning. The jail-breakers created a completely open app environment for the iPhone fairly early on.

The Installer app quickly produced eBook readers, several quality games, mobileTeminal, OpenSSH (client and server), and NetShare.

In roughly the same period of time, Apple's closed App Store brought us eBooks, more games, and twenty flashlight apps. Oh, and NetShare for a couple of days before it got pulled.

If you only care about games, the closed development environment has served Apple just fine. If you are hoping it will save you from useless junk... well, the closed App Store has proportionally a lot more useless junk than there ever was from the open Installer.app....

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[zubikov]

Despite what you might think, it's not everyone's intention to jailbreak the iPhone. By integrity, I mean that the iPhone as a small OS would not be a junk anything-goes resource manager, but a stable runtime environment for which people can develop stable applications. That is why Apple has the whole "it just works" thing going for them. That's also why Apple is selling them by the Millions, and Nokia is having trouble growing, you bag of douche.

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[Toonol]

It would be doomed to failure, like its cousin the pc. What a horrible flop that was.

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[Toonol]

The time to panic isn't when the fourth application is rejected, it's when the first application is rejected. Everything after that is just reinforcement.

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[TheBig1]

And knowing is half the battle.

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[darjen]

I don't know, I haven't looked into it enough yet. It would be really nice if there wasn't. If anyone who reads this knows, please respond.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know where I can read the full text of said agreement online?

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[Devir]

And that is how our country was formed. By a little civil disobedience in order to protect the grander goals of individual freedom. Had John Hancock and Ben Franklin been caught signing the Declaration of independence, they and all the other signers would be hung for high treason. Same goes for Washington leading armies against the Brits.

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[TheBig1]

The audio from the dock is always identical to the audio from the headphone connector. See my iPod hacking page at http://thecave.homeunix.org/ipod_hardware.jsp for more information on what I have found regarding iPod touch hardware so far...

Cheers

Re:well

[onecheapgeek]

Actually, you need to work on the reading comprehension. He didn't say anything about suing Apple, he talked about lawyers to PROTECT his freedom when (and clearly if) Apple were to sue him for speaking out. So, no, the Redcoats thing isn't over the top, as Apple would have attacked and he would be defending.

Further, I would love to see Apple try to convince a judge that an unsigned NDA is legally enforceable. "Ok, show me where exactly I signed. Oh, you just have a checkbox? Doesn't look like I signed anything."

Re:well

[aukset]

Until such time as the private entity attempts to use the power of the government to censor you by, for example, filing a restraining order.

I'm personally pretty tired of people spouting off that we have no free speech rights when it comes to corporations and private persons, because quite frankly that is bullshit. Free Speech is a recognized human right and no other human, government representative or otherwise, has the right to take it away from you. The only ways they can try are 1) make you agree contractually to limit your rights, 2) use the force of government via the courts, in which case you are protected by relevant law, or 3) use force directly against you, in which case you are protected by relevant law.

Ceding your free speech rights to private entities is just as bad as ceding them to the government. You, me, everyone, has the right to stand up to these bullies and claim our human right to speak freely. Just because it is NOT enumerated in the bill of rights does NOT mean the right does not exist.

Re:well

[g-san]

I signed up for an Apple Dev Account. While waiting for the email to come, I started searching for some good iPhone programming sites. I instantly came across the NDA thing. I had thought they would have done away with that around the 2.0 release. I eventually got my email from Apple. I clicked the link and it didn't work. For some reason my dev account could not be activated. I clicked the support link and promptly informed them of my problem, but told them no action was necessary as I would not voluntarily support their platform until the NDA was lifted.

This company once gave me a computer with call -151. I learned to program on that, a Vic 20 and a PET by typing in programs from magazines and reading books. The whole damn industry came about because of a bunch of guys who shared a drawer full of punch tapes. I don't see how this NDA is helping Apple at this point.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the development kit for commercial apps on windows mobile is in the neighborhood of $800.00 - $1200.00 to begin with. Symbian is far less or free but still the market is not as lucrative or appreciative.

Re:well

[Actually, I do RTFA]

So 4 out of about 4000 apps have been rejected so far. 0.4%. I don't think it's time to panic yet.

I choose to take my cues on when to panic from someone who has mastered the conversion of fractions to percentages.

Re:well

[turtleAJ]

And where are you going to get that kind of money if you're just some programmer or tiny company?

Pfff...
I'll just develop an iPhone app for accepting legal-fees donations...

Re:well

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Because the way they think of words in there[sic] head, loose would never accidentally come out as lose.

Then you know what my native language is. Congrats. However, you still seem to assume that all people process their native written language the same way and is therefore a reliable gauge of the value of someone's opinion?

Re:well

[elrous0]

The "loser has to pay your attorney's fees" only applies to civil rights lawsuits in the U.S. It might be a bit of a stretch to hope for this--and that's assuming you can withstand years of litigation to even get there.

Re:well

[ProfessionalCookie]

Yeah, I'm just hoping that the Android dev tools make it easy to create a beautiful UI. And hope that developers take the time to do that. I think Apple could figure out a less draconian way to handle this. Mostly I sympathize with the developers.

Re:well

[Mr. Underbridge]

Ugh... This has nothing to do with free speech. The 1st amendment ONLY applies to the government infringing on your rights.

Correct, contract law rules in this situation. But since they're instituting this change now, then presumably no one will have signed an NDA containing that language, meaning there's nothing to abridge the aforementioned first amendment rights.

Seems to me, only question is whether they signed an open-ended NDA that says all communications between the devs and Apple are confidential. But I'm pretty sure I can't send you a letter and say "These contents are under non-disclosure" unless you agree. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure unilateral contracts aren't enforcable. Otherwise, I'm sending you a letter that says "Your house belongs to me".

So in the end, minus a signed, enforceable NDA, 1st Amendment rules in this case.

Re:well

[fscking_coward_2001]

I think I'll take as my cue to panic the fact that it took 4 hours for someone to point out the math error.

Re:well

[dudacgf]

do you work at apple? I hadn't read so much bs in a loooong time...

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

This company once gave me a computer with call -151. I learned to program on that, a Vic 20 and a PET by typing in programs from magazines and reading books. The whole damn industry came about because of a bunch of guys who shared a drawer full of punch tapes. I don't see how this NDA is helping Apple at this point.

Not only that, but remember how Jobs and Woz got their startup financing in the first place: by selling boxes to defraud the freakin' telephone company.

Re:well

[Adam Hazzlebank]

I have WANTED an app that can download podcasts straight to my iPod Touch.

I want this too. Is there an app to do this on Installer or Cydia? I had a quick look but I could not find.

Re:well

[dondelelcaro]

By integrity, I mean that the iPhone as a small OS would not be a junk anything-goes resource manager, but a stable runtime environment for which people can develop stable applications.

A platform whose stability is dependent on the restriction of development to specific code is insanely fragile. It should not be possible for developers to destabilize the platform using the published APIs, as the underlying OS should properly manage its APIs and resources. Furthermore, it's not like code audits are performed on the applications that are in the app store, so these arguments are rather specious.

Re:well

[torkus]

Just wait until someone adapts android for a jailbroken iPhone.

Fan-boyism aside, I can't take any smartphone/PDA device seriously if it doesn't have a full keyboard. Granted I'm a business-biased techie geek type but still... Anything that's all touch screen is a toy in my opinion. And yes, the iPhone is a nifty toy.

The G1 looks great but is totally useless to me today (lack of exchange support).

Re:well

[electrictroy]

>>>Apple's going to have a hell of a time showing that they were materially damaged by someone saying that their app got rejected.

Precisely why I would not hesitate to say publicly why my application was rejected. (And also because I don't think an unsigned or shrinkwrapped NDA is valid. A customer should not bound to an NDA simply because he/she buys a product.)

As for the term "civil disobedience", I used that term because I tend to think of corporations as being quasi-governments in nature. Apple lacks police power, but it can still pound the average citizen into the ground via sheer weight of monetary expenditure (lawyers and lawsuits). So I view any resistance against an over-reaching corporation as resistance against a petit-tyrant and/or defense of my individual liberty.

Re:well

[torkus]

And you generally don't hear it today. Apple does all it can to play down that they're another big business.

It's a great big fascade of jeans and t-shirts and shiny gadgets that a $118BB market-cap company hides behind.

Oh, and just to point out how cynical I am ... i'll point out that wealth == power especially when dealing with lawyers and courts.

Re:well

[2nd Post!]

So that explains why Linux has 90% marketshare, right?

Or why Apple is growing so fast too!

Open platforms is a hidden advantage; but so is user interface design, integration, and usability, and those are all benefits that Apple has in spades.

Re:well

[electrictroy]

Yes.

The grandparent must have got a 100 on his English SAT. Clearly I was talking about a *defensive* action to protect myself against Apple. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I'm not going to self-censor myself either just because of "non disclosure agreements" that I never signed.

Re:well

[LionMage]

Hold on there, sparky. I paid my $99, became a registered iPhone developer, but nowhere did I affix my signature to anything indicating my acceptance of any NDA. Most legal analysts I've read have opined that these agreements probably won't stand up in court -- but who's going to go to court to prove their case?

So be careful when asserting that someone "signed an NDA" when they became a registered developer. Now, if Apple wants to claim that some button click constitutes a digital signature, that's another story...

Furthermore, affixing a statement to an e-mail that it's somehow covered under non-disclosure is absurd, and probably not legally enforceable. There have been cases with other companies trying to make similar claims about e-mailed threats or information they sent out, and those e-mails got published anyway with scarcely a consequence (aside from legal saber-rattling). You can't create a legally binding contract by putting language on a document saying, in effect, "By reading this, you agree to it." It seems to me that these e-mails are precisely that sort of communication, and trying to heap extra contractual obligations onto the developer after the fact.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this isn't meant to be legal advice.

Re:well

[torkus]

At a guess, he means it would be more like what happened to ebay. Everyone hopped on board and now you're stuck with millions of auctions for essentially useless garbage.

Apple works VERY hard to give users a complete experience and filter out as much 'trash' as possible. The caveat to that is, someone has to decide what's trash. Granted Apple's ideal is the opposite of fleabay - fewer but better products instead of many MANY items of any quality - because they sell themselves as a premium provider/service.

And yes, it sucks that they locked down the platform and then lock OUT anything that competes with their service. But...it's their platform. They built it from scratch so who are we to tell them they can't control it as they please? ...or at least try to. They won't win that battle and, as long as Apple doesn't take on MAFIAA tactics (al la MP3 DRM + lawsuit frenzy), they'll either open up or we'll have to listen to news reports of "OMFG Applez == failz ZOMG ZOMG" or something equally eloquent :)

Re:well

[torkus]

Unless Apple is *deceptive* then go scratch. No one has a RIGHT to an open cellphone/computer/whatever. Granted I think EULA's are predatory, restrictive, extreme, and generally should be given exactly zero legal weight if the 'least common denominator' customer is unable to understand it in full.

I love it when software or a website aimed at young teenagers has a 10+ page EULA or TOS that takes a law degree to understand.

Re:well

[linhares]

Sorry Steve, but you have painted yourself into a corner.

Re:well

[Atrox666]

Apple makes better products than Microsoft but they are still scum from the same pond.

Re:well

[bluesk1d]

Just because it is NOT enumerated in the bill of rights does NOT mean the right does not exist. Unfortunately, that's pretty much exactly what it means. Also, dont confuse civil court (contracts, litigation) with criminal court (being arrested for civil dissidence).

Re:well

[bluesk1d]

You are on the right track here but you have to remember that NDAs are civil. If you violate one, you get sued, not arrested. The amendments deal with the government prosecuting you (criminal). Those two court systems are isolated and your amendment rights dont carry over. If the government tried to sue you into forcing you to be silent about something, that would raise some really interesting questions.

Re:well

[Macrat]

No worries. All the developers making tons of money on the App Store didn't want you around anyway.

Re:well

[Draek]

So, whaddya think happens when a common user has a common need, that isn't filled by the makers of their particular platform of choice? now, whaddya think happens when said users aren't able to fill their need? hint: they don't think "ohh, I'm sure $MAKER is only looking for my best interests, I don't need $FEATURE after all".

Or perhaps a simple thought-experiment: how do you think Microsoft's marketshare would be today, if they had prevented Adobe from selling Photoshop since it "competes" with MS Paint?

Re:well

[azgard]

Open platforms is a hidden advantage; but so is user interface design, integration, and usability, and those are all benefits that Apple has in spades.

Maybe that explains why _they_ have 90% of marketshare. Seriously though - openness is advantage that works over longer time period. Also, note that it's an advantage to the customer, not the company. Give it a few years, and there will be more apps for Android than for iPhone (unless Apple changes their policy). And by the way - in the traditional Unix market has Linux now much more than 90% share.

Re:well

[SenseiLeNoir]

have a look on this site, it has some podcast applications, but I am not sure of their quality:
http://www.appsafari.com/category/podcasts/page/2/

There are all installer and cydia stuff.

there is also mxtube, which allows download of youtube videos.

Re:well

[NDPTAL85]

How is it an advantage to the customer if there are hardly any customers? Linux on the desktop doesn't have that many users. Being able to say you have more users than the AmigaOS, BeOS or Commodore64 isn't exactly anything to write home about...

And yes there may very well be more apps for Android than the iPhone in the future. How many of them will be good though? SourceForge is FULL of open source projects that have been abandoned because they're worthless.

Re:well

[SenseiLeNoir]

a) Visual studio costs $299. there are free tools available too.

b)symbian may be less popular in USA, but elsewhere in the world, Symbian is by far the most popular.

Re:well

[zoltamatron]

or better asses their own projects.

I always want my projects to have better asses.

Re:well

[pimpimpim]

It is starting to look like the iphone app market is closing

Are you assuming it was open at some point?

Re:well

[2nd Post!]

Are you talking about MS?

They have 90% marketshare because of two things: A licensing deal that pays them for every PC sold irrespective of which OS was installed, and the price competition between PC vendors.

Apple has tapped into the second force by switching to Intel, while the first has been neutralized with the DOJ antitrust trial (I believe).

Re:well

[the_fat_kid]

please don't call me sparky. "fat kid" or just a**hole will do.
I agree that this is a sneaky and back handed move. Probably not legal. Definitely not right.
I'm not surprised that the agreement didn't contain a NDA. I'm just sure that by stating it in an e-mail Apple feels that it does now.
The whole iPhone dev experience looks like it is more about controlling the product than benefitting the developer.

Disclaimer: I also am not a lawyer and have been know to talk out of my butt.

Re:well

[domanova]

Offtopic.
Should they pull their heads (plural) out of their arse (singular).
Do they have their individual heads up a collective arse, or each one up their own arse, or some sort of ring of head up the next arse?
Sorry, too late, it just made me laugh.

Re:well

[Raenex]

I don't think it's time to panic yet.

Don't panic. Just walk away in disgust.

Re:well

[darjen]

Thanks for the info. That's unfortunate for what I was hoping the device could do. Oh well...

Re:well

[JonathanBoyd]

A platform monopoly is still a monopoly (no matter how small), and this is clearly anti-competitive. Apple needs to be taken to task for it.

Why? There's nothing illegal about having a monopoly. And they're not illegally leveraging their 'monopoly' to prevent competition from Windows Mobile, Symbian, etc.

Re:well

[ckaminski]

If you were aiming this at me, I think you'll find I am firmly anti-Apple in this case. As much as I love the renaissance they've gone through with OSX and Intel, this platform lockdown is definitely not what I expected from the iPhone.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but at that point there is the end of any duty of care Apple has with respect to protecting your secrets -- algorithms, designs, etc. -- except as provided by statute. Moreover, terminating the developer contract does not terminate the limited licence to make copies you granted to Apple, but it does terminate several of the restrictions on the licence which may be relevant, if Apple were to be really evil.

In other words, keeping quiet about why your App was rejected may help you get your App into an acceptable state. Revealing the reasoning might, at Apple's discretion result in you losing the ability to sell any future App, and may unconstrain Apple from fixing, extending, and then selling the App you submitted in the first place.

Apple is certainly more worried about Apps which are rejected because they expose security or architectural weaknesses in the iPhone, or which step on contractual obligations Apple has to third parties (like the various carriers) than about trivial "we just think it's pointless" rejections. It is also probably a bit ticked off that a small handful of rejected developers were pretty clearly trying to push Apple away from its usual policy of public silence, and decided to underline its ability to push back.

Re:well

[ozphx]

The EXISTING developers have ALREADY AGREED to a whole bunch of HORRIBLE BS when they signed up to the developer program.

Like I said, they agreed to it to get the SDK.

No backsies.

Re:well

[OSXCPA]

Bear in mind, you are not the target audience - most of the people I run into in the Apple store (I am an Apple user) couldn't tell you what BSD or Darwin are and never even installed Xcode or the other dev. tools. They just want a smooth, seamless, elegant user experience. And they get it. They don't notice the velvet handcuffs, not at all...

Re:well

[ckaminski]

Much is the same for all their customers - they want something that "Just Works" and their revolutionary turn around in the past few years is a testament to how much the market is starting to demand that.

But for a smartphone, I want something as open as my Treo, with (hopefully) a platform a little more reliable than PalmOS, and more performant than WindowsMobile.

What happens if you don't agree?

[Brian Kendig]

What happens if you don't agree to a non-disclosure agreement on the rejection notice you receive?

Usually NDAs have to be signed before you get access to see cool secret stuff. But what if the only thing you're agreeing to is to be rejected?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

You agreed to take it up the ass from apple the moment you accepted the SDK.

AC for obvious reasons.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Saint Stephen]

It's my understanding that to even have developped an app for ipod, you have to have already signed an NDA. Must be under those terms.

I personally just like writing C# apps to run on my PocketPC smartphone and use all the goofy Windows APIs. It may not be lickable, but darn it, the thing works and is fun to write for.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Don_dumb]

It's my understanding that to even have developed an app for ipod, you have to have already signed an NDA.

In ink? IANAL so I have to ask what if someone discloses a rejection that had the caveat of non-disclosure? And outside of the US?
What can Apple actually do, if someone violates their 'request' for non-disclosure?
I'm guessing this is very much an empty threat, hopefully to prevent developers being scared away but I'm guessing they haven't taken the Streisand Effect into account. The threat of "you can't develop for the iPhone anymore" is less of a threat than they think it is.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Migraineman]

The obvious next step would be to place both you and your product on Double Secret Probation ... the terms of which are only available to developers with Super-Level Clearance. You don't have Super-Level Clearance, do you? Hmmm, very well, just sign here ... and here ... and here ... thank you.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

You agree to an NDA and that NDA says words to the effect of "if we send you something, we just say 'this is confidential' and it means it's covered by this NDA". Simple as that. Thus they cover the case of emails they send to you in the same way they cover the SDK stuff.

So breaking the NDA on that email is no different to breaking the NDA on their SDK or breaking any other NDA you ever sign.

The threat outside the US is the same as any other time a non-US entity breaks contract with a US entity. The contract specifies jurisdiction of a US court and the case is tried there usually with the non-US entity in absentia. A US court may well have trouble penalizing a non-US individual, but that individual may later have trouble if they ever come to the US personally.

IANAL either but that's what our lawyers said last time this came up.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

PocketPC ... the thing works

Do you have a different version of Windows Mobile to the rest of us?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[tgd]

Click through EULAs have been deemed to be unenforcable.

I'd be willing to bet that their NDA would be if push came to shove as well.

And you can't retroactively add things under NDA.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[jrockway]

Apple can't really do anything if you disclose the rejection. I would never agree to an NDA like this, but if I was in this situation I would just tell Apple my e-mail was compromised and the "crucial trade secrets" were leaked. Oops. Don't send crucial trade secrets to a Gmail account unencrypted, idiots.

Anyway, Apple has clearly never heard of the Streisand effect. When will companies learn that you can't censor the Internet, even with LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS and lawyers?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[dunkelfalke]

who is that "rest of us" you mention?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Don_dumb]

I see. Again however, has someone agreed to anything? or is this another EULA "we hope this stands up in court" click-through agreement?
I would have thought that proper NDAs involve literally signing paper, these don't seem 'signed' at all.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile I can open a bank account and agree to a car insurance contract by clicking.

But yeah, bankers and insurers are a fly-by-night bunch and often work in legal grey areas with respect to contract law. NOT.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Zerth]

I imagine the NDA is "signed" when you didn't call up your credit card company to dispute the $99 bucks Apple put on there to pay for the SDK.

Surely if you didn't agree to the NDA, you'd have a problem with paying Apple for something you can't use...

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[gyrogeerloose]

Actually, the SDK is a free download--I have a copy on my computer just because I wanted to see what it looked like. The $99 is to register as a developer with Apple.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[SQLGuru]

Since money changes hands, I think a simple wording along the lines of "by paying $99 to register as an official iPhone developer, you agree to the NDA". It's more involved than a simple "click here to agree" because there is an actual paper trail that can be followed through your credit card. So, I would think that this is "more substatial" than a traditional EULA.

Layne

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[phoenix321]

Write stuff, compile, upload and run it, it's not that hard.

Except for it being Windows and Microsoft land, no one ever shoots you in the back for writing software for your own or anyone else's phone.

And rejecting a product from a monopoly-like store and forbidding anyone to tell about it, come on, that's ridiculous and absolutely a kind of exploitation. No matter if the NDA is a valid contract or not - it is unethical, probably violates some rights on the weaker end, the developer and could very well be shot down in court.

But Windows Mobile has been around for ages, there's Java runtimes for it and you can develop and run everything you like. You just miss the wealthy Apple fanboi crowd as a target demographic :)

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[A nonymous Coward]

But if you pay $99 to join the developer program, that's a contract, not a click-thru EULA. Contracts involve something of value from both parties, and that $99 is your agreeing to the contract.

But if this rejection letter NDA is part of the rejection letter, not part of what you agreed to on that $99 contract, I doubt it is enforceable. But on the third hand, if you publish the rejection letter, no doubt they will cancel the contract and you would have to sue to get it reinstated. I wonder if it is like making a disturbance in a movie theater, if they refund your $99 when they kick you out.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[A nonymous Coward]

Did you pay them $99 for the SDK? Doesn't that make it a contract, not a mere EULA?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Richard_at_work]

Click through EULAs have been deemed to be unenforcable.

Common fallacy here on Slashdot - EULAs in general have not been found to be unenforcable. Certain terms of certain EULAs have been, and some jurisdictions place some restrictions on them, but there has been no general, catch all legal ruling on the concept of EULAs in general.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[residieu]

Does the NDA for the developer kit say, "You agree to keep any rejection notices private if we ask you to?" If it doesn't, I don't see how this later request is covered by the NDA.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[radarjd]

Click through EULAs have been deemed to be unenforcable.

Really? What's your citation to the case which unambiguously holds that click through EULAs are unenforceable? Sure, you'll be able to find cases where a particular EULA was unenforceable, but I'm unaware of any jurisdiction which has a blanket prohibition on the enforcement of click through EULAs.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Sloppy]

What happens if you don't agree to a non-disclosure agreement on the rejection notice you receive?

If you fail to agree to the NDA, then you fail to get rejected, and they have to sell your app on the store. ;-)

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

Click through EULAs have been deemed to be unenforcable.

No they haven't. In the US *some* parts of *some* such EULAs have been ruled unenforceable and others upheld. Other countries vary.
A lot hangs on whether a given clause is seem as unreasonable (e.g. a clause stating that 'we can change this agreement at any time in any respect with no notice' is likely to be struck down; a clause stating 'this software may only be installed simultaneously on no more than three machines' would probably be upheld).

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Sloppy]

I would never agree to an NDA like this, but if I was in this situation I would just tell Apple my e-mail was compromised and the "crucial trade secrets" were leaked.

Now there's an interesting idea: PK has been around for decades now. If someone fails to encrypt, they aren't exercising even the faintest due dilligence in keeping confidentiality, so for them to claim it's confidential, is silly.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs to tell that it was rejected?

Suppose someone says: "I sent an application, but I'm not allowed to mention the answer."

Do you think the answer was 'yes' or 'no'?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[GuldKalle]

But it's not only a click-through EULA, it's a read-then-pay EULA, so if you don't want to be bound by the EULA, don't type in your CC details.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[ChrisA90278]

"what if the only thing you're agreeing to is to be rejected?"

You have to agree to the NDA when you download the development kit. You also have to pay a $99 fee. It is hard to argue you did not agree to it after paying a fee. The rejection letter was always covered by NDA but now what's changed is that Apple is printing "NDA" on the letters and enforcing the agreement.

My opinion of this whole mess is that Apple is fully within their righs but is being stupid. Developers will figure out that the risk is rejection is to great and will abandon the platform. But maybe Apple is not stupid and that is their goal, to cull the heard as they have to many developers.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[UnknowingFool]

Most of the time, EULAs are unenforceable because they break the standard of what is a contract. Contracts require an overt accept like a signature and a quid-pro-quo structure which EULAs don't have. To be accepted to the iPhone developer program to distribute an app, you have to pay a License fee of $99. Apple could argue that act makes it a true contract.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Dun Malg]

PocketPC ... the thing works

Do you have a different version of Windows Mobile to the rest of us?

What, are you one of those poor bastards still running WM5? WM6.1 is a perfectly serviceable operating system. My HTC TYTN II doesn't get "rebooted" unless I decide to reflash the ROM. I reflashed it a couple weeks ago, but before that it ran for months without a restart. Now the phone I had before this one, the Mio A701, that piece of crap needed to be rebooted 5 times a day. Really, the problem with WM isn't the OS, but craptastic hardware compatibility due to mediocre "value engineered" phone hardware. If the iPhone OS was available to any and all Taiwanese phone mills, you'd see the same shit. Really, most problems with WM can be solved fairly easily: quit being such a cheap fuck and buy a decent piece of hardware to run it. Windows Mobile runs like a swiss watch on well-designed hardware--- just like the iPhone.

My only wish is that HTC would make a phone using the same size display as the iPhone. This tiny QVGA shit sux0rz.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Dhalka226]

Honestly, I have trouble believing that this would stand up in court if somebody actually wanted to challenge it. For starters, the whole concept is ridiculously stupid on its face. Why should you be permitted to NDA every piece of correspondence you have, regardless of whether or not it really has anything to do with your products or process, just to be able to do dickhead things but not take a beating in public for it? It's a simple abuse of the legal system and a legal attempt to circumvent whatever few free market principles we have left.

Beyond that, consider what you just said in the context. We're talking about somebody whose application was rejected. Given that situation, and according to your explanation for it, you're saying that for just $99 and the signing of an NDA, that person has purchased the right to have their application rejected. It's painfully clear what Apple gets out of this process, but what does the rejected developer get? I admit my legal knowledge isn't vast (and of course nothing is as simple as it seems) but I've always believed that if there's no consideration on both sides, a contract is not valid. I hardly consider trading $99 for an NDA to be consideration to the developer.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[SQLGuru]

for just $99 and the signing of an NDA, that person has purchased the right to have their application rejected

I assume that $99 gives you the right to submit MULTIPLE apps for publication. Rejecting one app does not mean that *ALL* of your apps were rejected. (Of course, if your first app is the one rejected, what are the chances that you'll publish another.) But still, the NDA would cover all of you work with the SDK, rejected or not.

Layne

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[dunkelfalke]

your wish will come true very soon

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Eccles]

Most of the time, EULAs are unenforceable because they break the standard of what is a contract.

Should be, yes. Are unenforceable, no.

Contracts require an overt accept like a signature and a quid-pro-quo structure which EULAs don't have.

Signature is not required. Consider, for example, sitting down at a restaurant; the contract that you will pay for what you order is implied. The relevant contractual issues are "a meeting of the minds"; i.e. that it is agreed on what is being exchanged, followed by "an exchange of value", the actual trading of items from each party. The problems with EULAs are that the apparent meeting of the minds occurred when I bought the product, and the exchange of value took place then too. EULAs try to change the terms of agreement after the contract is already agreed to and the value has been exchanged.

In Apple's case, they're stating the contractual terms before you pay, so they follow standard contract law.

IANAL, but I am anal.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[tiananmen tank man]

So what you are saying is we are living with a "secret law". We cant know if something is legal or not until we get shoved in front of a judge.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Rob the Bold]

I would never agree to an NDA like this, but if I was in this situation I would just tell Apple my e-mail was compromised and the "crucial trade secrets" were leaked.

Now there's an interesting idea: PK has been around for decades now. If someone fails to encrypt, they aren't exercising even the faintest due dilligence in keeping confidentiality, so for them to claim it's confidential, is silly.

Good point, would your lawyer choose to communicate with you by postcard? Would he be your lawyer long?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Richard_at_work]

Basically, yes - case law defines a significant portion of most countries laws through interpretation of the letter of the law, or defining new areas that current law is vague about. Contract law, which EULAs fall under, covers such a vast and open field that there could never be detailed, specific laws to cover every eventuality - that very rarely happens even in extremely well defined areas of law.

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

AC for obvious reasons.

Oh boy, did you have to agree never to badmouth Apple?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious about your "obvious reasons". Is it that your name is so well known in development circles that you'd jeopardize your career by posting under your user name, or is it that you're a tinfoil hat wearing paranoiac with delusions of grandeur?

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[sootman]

Probably too late to get noticed, so I'm replying to the first +5 comment I see. There's a good chance the "do not talk about your rejected app" deal is just a result of a boilerplate notice.

One developer, who writes only Mac software, not iPhone software, emailed:

I trawled through my emails to find bug reports and other correspondence from Apple Developer Connection (of which there is quite a bit).

Every one has the text:

THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE IS UNDER NON-DISCLOSURE

Re:What happens if you don't agree?

[makomk]

Not really - if you read the rest of the page you've linked to, this language wasn't originally on the iPhone software rejection notices. It was, however, on stuff they did want to put under NDA (bug information, etc).

Reasonable?

[faloi]

How was banning a tethering application reasonable?

Re:Reasonable?

[MoonBuggy]

Or even 'I Am Rich' for that matter. If people want to waste their money then they should be more than welcome to; I can't believe people are calling it a scam - it works exactly as advertised and the price is clearly stated.

Re:Reasonable?

[Bender Unit 22]

I would like to know that too.

Re:Reasonable?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

How was banning a tethering application reasonable?

If providers (like O2 in the UK) were provided with an assurance from Apple that tethering would not be allowed.
And if providers (like O2 in the UK) set up their pricing policy on that assurance.
Under those circumstances, it would be reasonable for Apple to ban a tethering application.

I can't say if that is definitely what has happened.

In the UK, O2 provide unlimited data with no fair usage policy for the iPhone. Every other 3G device they support has data limits and strict fair usage policies.
Best will in the world - you can't use that much data with an iPhone. Start tethering? Let's play.
I'd guess the providers will want to amend agreements with the consumers before they allow tethering.

Re:Reasonable?

[Scutter]

I don't have the AT&T user agreement in front of me, but I believe when you sign the contract with them, you agree not to use their data plan with a tethered computer. It's possible that Apple is using that as a way of helping AT&T enforce compliance.

Re:Reasonable?

[Don_dumb]

In the UK, O2 provide unlimited data with no fair usage policy for the iPhone. Every other 3G device they support has data limits and strict fair usage policies.

Wrong - look at the bottom of O2's iPhone page http://www.o2.co.uk/iphone/paymonthly - "Excessive usage policy and full terms apply"

Re:Reasonable?

[umbrau44]

How is banning any legal application reasonable? I Am Rich should not have been banned, I'm unsure about the other ones.

Re:Reasonable?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

Wrong - look at the bottom of O2's iPhone page http://www.o2.co.uk/iphone/paymonthly - "Excessive usage policy and full terms apply"

That refers specifically to the free Wifi service through the Cloud and BT Openzone and not 3G usage.

This was extensively covered in the media when the original iPhone was released. They tried to put on a fair usage policy, the customer complained. They took it off. Presumably thinking: "fuck it - without tethering they won't use that much data any way."

No apologies necessary.

Re:Reasonable?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

As far as I've heard, all plans tied with the iPhone worldwide have a contract stipulation by the carrier the user signs that the data plan may not be used with tethering. I think they do that because a computer user can easily outstrip a mobile phone user in terms of data use.

Re:Reasonable?

[Don_dumb]

I will appologise nonetheless.
Consider me corrected. But it does show how the small print can confuse.

Re:Reasonable?

[gyrogeerloose]

It's not reasonable but Apple didn't have much choice in the matter. AT&T wants to be able to charge their users extra for the privilege of tethering so they've written that into their agreement with Apple.

Re:Reasonable?

[2nd Post!]

The network can't support the bandwidth?

How is it different than a sign saying no commercial vehicles over two tons allowed on a road? Or a height restriction in a parking garage?

Re:Reasonable?

[2nd Post!]

The network already can't support existing iPhones?

Re:Reasonable?

[eddyk]

I don't have the AT&T user agreement in front of me, but I believe when you sign the contract with them, you agree not to use their data plan with a tethered computer. It's possible that Apple is using that as a way of helping AT&T enforce compliance.

Probably true for AT&R user agreement but not for most of us europeans... and in particular in Belgium.

Re:Reasonable?

[SoulRider]

AT&T forbids tethering of all phones, even if the phone itself allows tethering. Unless you specifically purchase a plan that allows tethering. In my area AT&T only sells one plan that allows tethering to Blackberries and is $50/month for 5GB of data. Tethering any other phone can get your contract canceled and AT&T can make you pay for the entire contract.

Re:Reasonable?

[Dun Malg]

I don't have the AT&T user agreement in front of me, but I believe when you sign the contract with them, you agree not to use their data plan with a tethered computer.

AT&T sells tethering for Windows Mobile based phones, so that can't be true. Plus, you can bypass the stupid buggy proxy system the use to control tethering access by using any non-AT&T crippled GSM WM smartphone, which has USB "internet sharing" capability built in.

Re:Reasonable?

[tlambert]

One is enforced by a carrier not willing to build out its infrastructure, and the second two are enforced by physics?

-- Terry

Re:Reasonable?

[2nd Post!]

Um, that is like saying a garage not expanding it's door makes it the garage's fault for not allowing taller vehicles.

The carrier not willing to build out its infrastructure is still limited by physics: A tethering option will prevent non-tethered 3G users from using existing bandwidth in a bandwidth starved environment.

Re:Reasonable?

[catacow]

The world doesn't revolve around AT&T. What about everyone outside the US?

Re:Reasonable?

[gyrogeerloose]

Can't say--I don't know what agreements Apple has with other mobile carriers.

Re:Reasonable?

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out http://www.o2.co.uk/termsconditions/iphone

O2 Web & Wi-Fi Bolt On terms & conditions
3. The O2 Web and Wi-Fi Bolt On allows you unlimited use of O2 UK's Edge, GPRS, 3G and HSDPA networks, The Cloud's UK Wireless LAN network and the BT Openzone UK Wireless LAN network, for personal internet use and email on your iPhone only. All usage must be for your private, personal and non-commercial purposes. You may not use your SIM Card in any other device or use your SIM Card or iPhone to allow the continuous streaming of any audio / video content, enable P2P or file sharing or use them in such a way that adversely impacts the service to other O2 customers.

Even if they did retract their fair-usage policy that certinaly sounds like a catch-all "we define what adversely impacts the service" type statement that's the staple of ISP FUPs everywhere.

agreement?

[fractic]

Doesn't an agreement imply that both parties agree to it? According to TFA it's just a notice that Apple put in the letter, that's not an agreement. Why would the recipients be legally obligated to accept it?

Re:agreement?

[91degrees]

Presumably you agree to some T&Cs before you submit an application to the Apple Store which could be interpreted as allowing them to do this.

In practice, it's probably unenforceable. If Apple sued you for disclosing the reasons for the rejection they wouldn't be able to show any damages, and since Apple aren't doing anything, you might even be able to argue that the contractual arrangement ended with apple's rejection.

In the future...

[rock56501]

Apple will team up with the **AA and sue whoever posts their rejection letter for copyright infringement.

Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

Because they make cool *looking* equipment? If M$ did this, people would be all over them. Jobs is not known for working and playing well with others, but people just wink at the silliness because they like the shiny gadgets.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[rindeee]

"...people would be all over them". Yes, sort of like we're doing here.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[JeanBaptiste]

I came in here to say this, but you beat me to it and got modded flamebait. Seriously, if Microsoft or Sony behaved in this manner there'd be 500 negative comments. I don't understand all the apple love around here...

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[oogoliegoogolie]

but people just wink at the silliness because they like the shiny gadgets.
Well I'm winking at the silliness of your comment eventhough it's not shiny. This is all over the news, so Apple ain't exactly getting a "free pass" as you put it.

If M$ did this, people would be all over them
Yes they would, and rightfully so. Like a famous president once said:"Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice....uh..um...wont get fooled again"

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[toQDuj]

Well, they seem to be the only one getting a part of the actual product right. The iPhone works, the apps work, it does what it says it does right out of the box and the design is undoubtedly rather sublime.

That said, what skills they have in design of UI and product, they lack in other parts of their "experience". No company is perfect, however. Just take a good look at Google and one finds similar flaws... They should strive to be the best they can, but somehow they always translate it as "just evil enough to get away with it"

B.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[toQDuj]

Apple has good sides too.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[dreamchaser]

Only there wouldn't be nearly as many MS apologists as there are in this thread for Apple.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[2nd Post!]

You forgot "usable" in describing Apple products. A feature essentially doesn't exist if it isn't usable. Ergo the iPhone's popularity.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[westlake]

"...people would be all over them". Yes, sort of like we're doing here.
.

which would matter if the average iPhone user spent more time reading Slashdot than shopping the App Store

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Why does Apple get a free pass?

They don't, as you can see here.

If M$ did this, people would be all over them.

I would say we're "all over them" here.

That said, I suspect the reason there are actually apologists is:

Because they make cool *looking* equipment?

No, because they make stuff that actually works, and works well, at least for its intended purpose. If you do exactly what Apple has designed for you to do, it will be the most seamless, painless, beautiful experience you've ever had.

And, because you're actually Apple's customer -- you're never Microsoft's customer -- you're much more likely to stay on that golden path of "exactly what Jobs thought of."

But let me be clear: I'm no fanboy, and I'm no apologist.

The trouble is, when you get off that path, things become very painful indeed. I want to use this keyboard I'm typing on as a PC keyboard, on my Linux machine, and I want a goddamned Insert key, but Apple has turned this into an 'fn' key, which is interpreted in hardware (or maybe firmware), placing it strictly outside my control.

Or take OS X -- I would like my home and end keys to go to the beginning and end of a line. I would like Terminal to have things like the del key actually work. I would love sloppy focus, and the ability to make stuff other than video actually go fullscreen, not just kinda-sorta-maximized-maybe.

And I get these things, kinda, sorta, maybe, with third-party apps -- but it'll never work well at all until it's blessed by Apple. Virtual desktops/workspaces sucked on OS X until Leopard implemented Spaces.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[steelfood]

One of the more pervasive memes I've seen here regarding Apple is (and I paraphrase):

They're shafting me in the ass right now, but I'm hoping they'll stop soon.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[ukyoCE]

I'm both having a hard time finding any apple apologists (although there are good explanations and details) and I also find every (valid) anti-MS story filled with Microsoft apologists and astro-turfers.

If MS hypothetically has fewer apologists it's because they've done that much less positive to deserve the benefit of the doubt in the minds of readers. After all the shenanigans they've pulled, I wouldn't trust MS to feed my cat.

Apple tends to do some things we don't like, but they typically have legitimate reasons behind them. Eg. their agreement with AT&T says they can't allow tethering apps, their agreements with the music industry prevent them from allowing ringtones, etc. And these restrictions often come alongside unprecedented functionality that Apple fought tooth-and-nail for (relative lack of drm in itunes/ipod, a cheaper+better data plan on the iphone than most smart phones, etc.)

Even in cases where Apple is just fighting dilution of their own apps/sales by preventing competition - we don't like it, but without Apple having a monopoly, it's not actually unethical of them to do so.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[reashlin]

Actually I think its more than just a few people on Slashdot or other random forums on the net. Also the term free pass is fitting. The last few times M$ tried antyhign this stupid, arguably less stupid, they were sued by the EU unfer various acts. Why is it OK to sue M$ at an international level and not Apple. To open an API, charge developers to use it and then say you dont like the work so its not being published is complete balls. Is it possible to put together an alternative website of apps for the iPhone. That way the developers that are rejected can post there as well as those that are accepted if they wish. Apple can't be allowed to stop such a system otherwise they "should" be hit with unfair market practices. The developers do not have to say if the app has been rejected by apple or not. So they are not breaking the NDA.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Dun Malg]

Apple has good sides too.

So does Microsoft. So the fuck what? Shitty behavior is still shitty behavior.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they make cool *looking* equipment? If M$ did this, people would be all over them. Jobs is not known for working and playing well with others, but people just wink at the silliness because they like the shiny gadgets.

Have you read most of the comments here on Slashdot, or on (gasp!) Macintosh fan sites? Because a good percentage of them are stating their disapproval of this. But, I suppose it's easier to just sit in your own little world and use your little strawman argument, and ignore the actual comments being made by folks. Yes, there are rabid fanboi's in both Apple's and Microsoft's camps, but I assure you that a good number of folks aren't very thrilled about this - including card carrying Apple lovers. But hey - hold tight to your little strawman argument.

Oh - and to carry your logic to it's conclusion - you're saying that if Microsoft had cool *looking* equipment, then they would get a free pass? Heh - what's stopping Microsoft from doing exactly this then - hmmm? Shoot - what's stopping all companies from just putting out cool *looking* equipment - if that is the most effective way to shut down criticism in your eyes, what's stopping all corporations from following this formula?

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Veering a bit off topic, but nobody reads comments that are posted more than an hour after the story anyway...

Or take OS X -- I would like my home and end keys to go to the beginning and end of a line.

I guess that's personal preference, based on what you originally got used to. For me, it drives me nuts when I'm in some MS app and the Home/End keys don't take me to the beginning/end of the document. Bah!

I would love . . . the ability to make stuff other than video actually go fullscreen, not just kinda-sorta-maximized-maybe.

The true fanboy/apologist would say that:

• There's never a need to maximize an application to full screen unless you're one of those braindead Windows users who can't multitask
• The green "+" button works exactly as it should, always enlarging the window only as much as necessary to fit all content

Of course, both arguments are complete and utter bullshit. The green "+" button was a neat idea, in that a window that doesn't need the whole screen display its entire contents shouldn't waste real estate. But rarely in practice is that ever the case, and Apple stubbornly refuses to fix it (or provide an alternative - maybe a blue "full screen" button?).

Virtual desktops/workspaces sucked on OS X until Leopard implemented Spaces.

And you know what? They still suck. Spaces is still a big, steaming pile of crap. The underlying code handling Spaces must be complete spaghetti, as it simply behaves erratically.

• When I switch to another space, focus should be on the last window used within that space. Simple. But this does not always happen, especially when a certain app has windows in multiple spaces.
• Switching to a space with no windows effectively treats the desktop as a Finder window, switching the active application to Finder. Moreover, when you then switch back to a different space, Finder remains the active application since with the desktop, it effectively exists in every space. Butt fucking stupid. Again, this scenario should follow the above simple rule: activate the last window that was used in the destination space.
• Sometimes modal dialogs from applications in other spaces pop up in the current space. After dismissing that dialog, the other app is marked as existing in the current space, when it really does not. Switching to that app via Cmd-Tab does not switch spaces like it should.

There are others, but it's mostly permutations of the above. Big fucking mess, even in the 6th (!) release of Leopard.

All of that said, why do I still use Apple computers? Because they still work better on average for my needs/desires than Linux and certainly Windows. I get unix + Photoshop + iMovie/Final Cut + excellent video conferencing with other Mac-using family/friends. I have a single Mac mini that's my mail server, dhcp server, nameserver, http server, file server, unix command line (I live in Terminal + screen), vacation movie editor, photo organizer, home theater pc, occasional Windows development station via Parallels, music library, home automation controller, and much more. All in a tiny little machine that sips electrical power. It singlehandedly replaced two monster, loud machines before it (Power Mac and a FreeBSD pc).

Erm, back on topic... I don't own an iPhone (no desire) or iPod touch (would like one with 64 GB), but I just downloaded the dev kit the other day. I've got a few old games I think I could port fairly easily and maybe even sell for a buck or two. But this story certainly dims my enthusiasm for that. Doh!

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[SanityInAnarchy]

For me, it drives me nuts when I'm in some MS app and the Home/End keys don't take me to the beginning/end of the document.

I'm fine with ctrl+home/end for that.

The sad, hilarious fact here is that in years of using Linux, everything from GNOME/KDE to WindowMaker, Fluxbox, Enlightenment, and brief brushes with TWM and Ratpoison, the home/end paradigm is always pretty much the same: In a viewer, they go to the beginning/end of a document. In an editor, they go to the beginning/end of a line, and in all GUI edit boxes I can remember using, they go to the beginning/end of a document.

Recently, I'm forced to use OS X as I wait for my new laptop to come in. And here, I have command+right/left in apps which follow the Apple model, home/end in the Terminal (changed from the default of shift+home/end), except in apps like less -- and, for that matter, most Terminal apps seem fairly broken about this -- vim, less... irb gets that right, but delete-forward doesn't work (called "del" elsewhere).

Except, as you say, in some apps -- Firefox might support both, I'm not sure.

It's possible it's just what I'm used to, but it really seems like, on OS X, my UI is even less consistent than on Linux, and that's just sad.

There's never a need to maximize an application to full screen unless you're one of those braindead Windows users who can't multitask

Bullshit, of course. Granted, there are plenty of apps which really don't need to go fullscreen, and I've started training myself to think this way on other OSes. (This browser isn't fullscreen, and there's no need for it to be -- easier to read when the line length is shorter anyway.)

The green "+" button works exactly as it should, always enlarging the window only as much as necessary to fit all content

But this is the part that really doesn't work -- see, this doesn't happen. The green '+' works exactly the way they felt like making it work on that app, in that document, on this particular Thursday.

Whereas here on Linux, I have one button to maximize the window, and if the window can't be resized, I simply don't have that button.

They still suck. Spaces is still a big, steaming pile of crap.

As long as we're talking about Spaces, there doesn't seem to be a keyboard shortcut (or I just haven't found it) for "move this window to another space". Instead, the closest I get is click+hold the window, then ctrl+arrow to switch spaces, dragging it with me.

When I switch to another space, focus should be on the last window used within that space.

I generally click on windows to focus them now, given that focus in general doesn't work the way I want on the Mac. I got sloppy focus to work -- in Terminal -- provided the Terminal app itself already has focus. That's probably the single biggest thing I miss from Linux.

Incidentally, the single biggest thing I miss from OS X is the fact that, in Terminal, at least, I could cycle forward/backward through terminal windows with a keystroke. I don't want tabbed everything -- I have a big enough monitor (and another on the way) that I can see all the windows I want. I just want more convenient ways to cycle through them -- ideally, one keystroke to switch apps, and one to switch windows within an app.

My window manager obviously knows enough to do this anyway -- it groups like windows when I get enough of them.

they still work better on average for my needs/desires than Linux and certainly Windows.

Unfortunately, the lack of sloppy focus, among many other things, has made it downright hostile. I can't really use OS X any more than I can use Windows for anything non-trivial.

With Linux, my main problem is application support, which isn't a huge deal -- it has everything I need to work (Rails, Firefox+Firebug, svn, git, Kate) and most of what I need to play (BitTorrent, mp

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Raenex]

I'm both having a hard time finding any apple apologists

You're a classic apologist, but don't think you are, which is why you can't find any. You even end your post with "Even in cases where Apple is just fighting dilution of their own apps/sales by preventing competition - we don't like it, but without Apple having a monopoly, it's not actually unethical of them to do so."

Speaks for itself. Step out of the reality distortion field one of these days.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, what are you, Microsoft PR? I'm working in Windows Vista here and the only Apple product I own is a laptop I bought 2+ years ago. I work with Microsoft products all day every day, and that's how I know they suck, and that Microsoft is a low-quality and sleazy company.

Put away your Microsoft stock options and be honest with yourself one of these days.

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Anonymous Coward]

I take that back, you don't seem to be much of a microsoft apologist, just someone with a grudge against Apple. You must have bought one of those blueberry iMacs with a puck mouse, right? I'd be holding a grudge too if I bought one of those :)

Re:Why does Apple get a free pass?

[Raenex]

If you want a reply repost with your real account.

Simple really.

[Soruk]

Add to the developer sites a line like:

The following applications have not been removed from the AppStore: [item] [item] [item] .... ...and just delete when required.

Re:Simple really.

[BarryJacobsen]

I think it could be even easier - you're not allowed to disclose that your app was rejected, but can't you just raise certain questions; eg:
"Did I make an application for the iPhone that does XYZ?"
"Did apple reject that application that I made?"
"Was the hypothetical rejection for the following reasons: PPP, QQQ?"

It's not disclosing the non-disclosable information - it's just raising the question as to whether or not it happ

Re:Simple really.

[srmalloy]

The first rule about Apps Store is, you do not talk about Apps Store.

Re:Simple really.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to know what it is? ...a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it

I made an application called macdock

[Anonymous Coward]

It allows you to run the whole OSX desktop on your iphone. It was rejected and I am telling you here. So screw Apple's NDA

irrational...

[Xiph1980]

It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers...

Re:irrational...

[Daimanta]

Sir, I am afraid you need re-education. Please step into the reality distortion field.

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's why:
http://science.slashdot.org/science/08/09/25/036232.shtml

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers...

Well, ask yourself this: Why do some of the top brands of anything have such a big fanbase? Why do so many people go to McDonald's? I mean, McDonald's has food that "tastes like sh** but you can eat it." Why do so many people like Subway? Why do so many people people drive Toyotas?

These are all fairly mediocre products. Don't get me wrong -- Toyota produces a quality product, but it's just not as good as some of the major European brands (let's face it, the Germans know how to engineer good cars!)

It comes down to one word: Marketing.

Know who your target audience is, learn to speak their language, learn to cater to their attitudes and whims and you could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

Re:irrational...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Yeah, because most of their customers are iPhone developers?

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

For me, the benefits outweigh the treatment. In my opinion I would rather have something that works with me without hindrance right out of the box, and that does what it says on said box, than to have something I need to spend billions of years on to configure just so that it has a slight semblance of usability in it.

In the Open Source world, it is often said that you can write an app yourself if you cannot get it already, but such solutions often are very limited and require huge investments of time to get something buggy working. I rather spend my time on other stuff.

B.

Re:irrational...

[XxtraLarGe]

It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers...

In most cases, Apple treats their customers very well. Hardware is usually very elegantly designed and hardware & software usually work seamlessly together (iPod + iTunes for example). Get AppleCare for your products, and they'll repair/replace them in virtually all circumstances regardless of what's wrong. As a hobbyist programmer, I really enjoy XCode, since I've used eMacs, vi, .NET, NetBeans, etc. It's the best IDE I've ever used. I still think the NDA is ridiculous, and hope that they'll drop it soon.

Re:irrational...

[XxtraLarGe]

Before anybody points it out, I know, it's emacs. That's the type of problem you run into for using Apple for nearly 20 years!

Re:irrational...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers...

Customers =/= developers.

Re:irrational...

[CaptainZapp]

Customers of the products and brands you list usually don't turn into foaming, babbling, completely incoherent and irrational fanatics just because somebody states on a board that McDonalds food tastes like crap, or that a Toyotas performance leaves much to be desired.

Re:irrational...

[coolsnowmen]

Despite Apple's tight fist of control, they are still the underdog in the PC market by a factor of 10. They only dominate the music player market in the 70's[%]. I like healthy competition, as it benefits everyone. I actually don't own anything made by apple, but I will still root for them when they come out with innovative products in anyway. Why? Because that will push the market.

Re:irrational...

[MrEkted]

Strangely, your personal opinion doesn't matter as much to me as my own. I drive Toyotas because I find them to be infinitely more reliable than German cars (read - VW's). I use Apple products because I hate unnecessary reboots, bad user interfaces, and bloated software - all of which I find in MS products.
From Consumer Reports (this is not a slam dunk, but you get my point, I'm sure).

"European makes account for 17 models on the Least reliable list. This includes six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi."

"Reliability remains a forte for most Japanese brands. Twenty-three of the 33 models in our âoemost reliableâ list are from Japanese automakers. Moreover, weâ(TM)ve predicted average reliability or better for all Honda and Subaru models based on our most recent survey. This yearâ(TM)s forecast shows that domestic models, led by Ford, continue to improve and that there are small improvements in European makes as well."

Re:irrational...

[registrar]

I've been an Apple fan for a long time, and I can tell you that if they keep this up, the fanbase will shrink by at least one.

I consider myself a bit of an early 'alpha geek switcher' from about five years ago, back when OS X became useable. I ditched the Linux ideology for a company that was maybe a bit evil but generally didn't get in my road. When I switched, they only had to be better than Microsoft, and work a bit better than Linux. Apple has filled that need nicely.

However, this move is a very dark shade of grey. At the moment I don't really care because mine is a fine phone and I don't really want to develop for it. Yes, I would prefer to see RMS's freedoms honoured, but I feel much more strongly about "hands off my computer" than "hands off my phone."

It's only a phone, and only a smell of sulphur rather a truly sustained pattern of evil. But if it gets worse (especially if it interferes with my computer) I'll be back to linux like a bat out of hell. My next computer will almost certainly be a mac, but I will be watching very carefully before I put 10.6 on it.

Re:irrational...

[CharlieG]

Applecare - Umm - yeah. Refurbished MacbookPro - $2000. Applecare - about $900

Better to just take the risk. The laptop dies, I buy a new one. At the prices they want, the MBP is either extremely failure prone, or Applecare is a massive profit center

Re:irrational...

[jedidiah]

> Toyota produces a quality product, but it's just not as good
> as some of the major European brands (let's face it, the
> Germans know how to engineer good cars!) ...probably has something do to with PRICE.

Yes. If you just fixate on one characteristic of a product
to the exclusion of all else then you can come up with all
sorts of strange conclusions that don't seem to match up
well with reality (kind of like an Apple fanboy).

Re:irrational...

[Reality Master 101]

Why do so many people go to McDonald's? I mean, McDonald's has food that "tastes like sh** but you can eat it."

Because it tastes awesome. Not particularly healthy, but awesome. Especially the french fries. Let me guess -- you're a vegan?

Why do so many people like Subway?

Oh, because they use fresh baked bread? Because it's fairly healthy? And how exactly do you screw up a sandwich, anyway?

Don't get me wrong -- Toyota produces a quality product, but it's just not as good as some of the major European brands (let's face it, the Germans know how to engineer good cars!)

Asian cars destroy German cars on long-term reliability. I prefer Honda, but they're all pretty good. I liked my couple of Benzes, but they weren't as good as their reputation after 70-80K miles.

Re:irrational...

[poetmatt]

These other apps worked without hindrance too. That has 0 to do with it. Apple banned them because they work; in fact if they didn't, apple probably wouldn't ban them. The fact that they allowed people to do things the phone currently blocks but is capable of, should tell you a thing or two.

Remember apple's "works out the box" motto the next time you have a patch from apple that breaks a program. Or windows. Or anything other than linux.

In the open source world, you can write an app yourself and solutions are not limited or take huge amounts of time. Lots of people just program stuff casually in the evenings and go a long way with it, usually/eventually can even make a living off of it. The difference in open source is you can take an existing program that doesn't have something you want, modify it, and use it/give it to others. Good luck doing that on anything non GPL.

Re:irrational...

[jedidiah]

> Toyota produces a quality product, but it's just not as good
> as some of the major European brands (let's face it, the
> Germans know how to engineer good cars!) ...probably has something do to with PRICE.

Not everyone is made of money.

Yes. If you just fixate on one characteristic of a product
to the exclusion of all else then you can come up with all
sorts of strange conclusions that don't seem to match up
well with reality (kind of like an Apple fanboy).

Re:irrational...

[jedidiah]

What people say and what's real are often two wildly divergent things.

Unless your EXACT requirements are met by some device that
resembles some sort of appliance (or just plain is one) then
some degree of end user integration will be required. Even if
this only requires selecting and using the proper "installshield
script", it will still be as big of a bother as anything that
Linux "tweaking" would subject you to.

This is where the Mac gets it right for a lot of people. If you're
fine with what comes bundled then that's cool. Although there's a
good chance that you will quickly be installing some 3rd party app
(perhaps even a bit of "free software") to deal with some pothole
you wander across.

You are just parroting FUD.

Re:irrational...

[elysiana]

Whoa, whoa.

Hardware being elegantly designed is hardly customer service, it's just creating a good product. Big difference there. You could make the best-looking car, but if I go in to buy it and I'm treated like crap, I'm not giving a dime to that brand.

As far as their hardware and software working seamlessly together, aren't you REQUIRED to use iTunes to load your iPod, and they have to be synchronized so that it's a pain to use on multiple computers? Lack of choices doesn't sound like treating your customers well, it sounds like a monopoly. Not only that, but unless they've made some big changes, you can't even change your own battery - you have to pay to send it in to them.

Re:irrational...

[AndrewNeo]

That, and by the time it dies there probably will be a new model Macbook Pro out.

Re:irrational...

[XxtraLarGe]

As far as their hardware and software working seamlessly together, aren't you REQUIRED to use iTunes to load your iPod, and they have to be synchronized so that it's a pain to use on multiple computers?

No, you don't have to synchronize your iPod. I use mine with both a Mac at home & a PC at work, and have it set to manually manage my music library. No problems.

Re:irrational...

[spinkham]

Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make the most reliable cars, in that order. This also holds with their respective "high end" brands: Lexus, Acura, and Infinity.
The Germans made the best cars in the 80s and earlier, but Japan has taken over.
Now, BMW's have a nice ride, and are excellent cars for a while, but as they age they spend a lot more time in the shop.
I keep my cars for 10-20 years(right now driving a 90 Corolla and a 2005 Scion Xb), so I guess I'm in the minority, but Toyotas for me are a much better value for their long term reliability.
I agree with your idea though, McDonalds and Subway are pants.;-)

Re:irrational...

[Xest]

Same reason people buy designer jeans even though they're made in the same sweat shop to the same quality and almost identical design as your average £10 budget pair I'd guess.

Re:irrational...

[shutdown -p now]

It's called the Reality Distortion Field.

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

Well, the phone does what it says on the box. The additional programs are optional bonuses. It is not a given that they have to support all apps everyone writes in their app store. I think you are free to set up your own app store/distribution centre, albeit less tightly integrated into the iPhone.

And about the "program it yourself option", I have not the knowledge nor the time to do that, so I am not interested in choosing an open source solution that I have to modify to get to work well, above an option that is more expensive but does the things I need it to do. I do write open source software for data analysis, so I know the pain involved in the construction and smooth operation. Designing a solid UI is also not for the faint hearted, because it inherently requires a selection of all possible features. This is very clearly lacking in most OS software (with the exclusion of e.g. OpenOffice), where the emphasis often lies on including all possible features in the UI, at the cost of usability and stability. That is the one thing Apple can offer: quality control.

Re:irrational...

[Bones3D_mac]

"It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers..."

Trust me... that sentiment is changing throughout the Apple community. Several former (and soon to be former) Apple loyalists are really being rubbed the wrong way by this new Apple Inc. way of doing things... especially those of us who hail all the way back to the days of the Apple II.

Apple Computer Inc was something to be cherished. Apple Inc is the next Microsoft hiding behind a familiar logo and face. It's no longer about "Think Different", but simply "Don't Think."

Re:irrational...

[2nd Post!]

Maybe because their product is more usable, and therefore useful to that fanbase?

Apple's customers are essentially computer illiterate. With that thought in mind, who else provides products for the computer illiterate?

Re:irrational...

[2nd Post!]

You forget usability in your rush to promote marketing!

McDonalds has indoor playgrounds for kids. In many urban settings, that is a godsend.

So Apple's value proposition is that the products can be used by computer illiterates. And they are.

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

I agree with your second paragraph, but the first and last are not quite true:
I spent a considerable time getting FreeBSD to work on my old university laptop. This involved me having to wait until the sound chip drivers came out, configuring and reconfiguring X11 until it finally worked on the LCD display, and then installing and deinstalling a ton of programs that promised a lot, but delivered a littlle. I admit that that was about 4 to 5 years ago, and things might have changed by now, but I must say it was a great relief to switch to the Mac. I occasionally still use a Sun machine for some computations, but leave the administration to others now who have more time and patience to get it working. Especially the trouble of getting Matlab (with the JVM) to work on these machines reinforces my point. If it works right away on these Sun or FreeBSD systems (about a 50/50 chance), you're in luck, if it doesn't, you're up for hours and hours of troubleshooting, which I and others have done. Not quite FUD.

Re:irrational...

[edbob]

Know who your target audience is, learn to speak their language, learn to cater to their attitudes and whims and you could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

Actually, it's not that hard to sell air conditioners to Eskimos nowadays what with Al Gore having invented global warming and all.

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how exactly do you screw up a sandwich, anyway?

You wouldn't think it possible, but they find a way

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

"let's face it, the Germans know how to engineer good cars!"

They may know how to produce decent cars, but Toyota has them beat hands down in Trucks, you insensitive clod!

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

1. There are more German auto makers than VW. ;) I hope you're not saying your Toyota is as good as or better than any car from BMW, for instance. (Before denouncing that comparison as 'unfair', I should remind you that the BMW 1-series models start at under US$30k, making them price-competitive with mid-range Toyotas)

2. ConsumerReports is poor gauge for automotive products, IMHO. They base their results on surveys, rather than actual knowledge of the products. There are far better companies that produce far better (and more accurate) surveys, such as Polk Automotive, which are tempered with knowledge of automotibles and the automotive industry in general.

3. Who said anything about Microsoft products? My comment was directed at Apple products.

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

As I said above, BMW 1-series is price-competitive with mid-range Toyotas, and VW is price-competitive across the board. McDonald's is not popular because of its pricing -- their pricing is actually the same or higher than most of its competition.

Re:irrational...

[0100010001010011]

My 215k mile TDI and my friends 415k mile '92 non turbo diesel beg to differ.

German cars can be more reliable than Asian cars, they're just "different" as in you MUST keep up on maintenance. Asian cars are appliances. You drive them until something big breaks and you go cut a new one out of its shrink wrapping.

German cars are tinkerer cars. I want my computer to "just work" that's why I own a Mac. I don't mind tinkering with my car and keeping up on maintenance. That's why I own a VW. Sure my vacuum locks gave it up a while ago and I had to rig new ones, but the engine and drive train are rock solid. (Akin to finding that damn linux driver for that new piece of hardware, but the rest of the system is rock solid).

Second. Dealers Suck. They've screwed up more things on the TDI forum than I care to recount here. (But You can check out the thread). If you don't know how to work on your car, learn. If you don't like working on your own car, don't own a VW.

Re:irrational...

[0100010001010011]

$900? WTF are you shopping, it's $249 on Apple's website. Second a refurbed MBP is $1700.

(If the links don't work go to store.apple.com and scroll down. On the left are the "refurbs")

Not only that all refurbs come with a 1 year warranty (Just like new products). If a 'new' MBP is too rich for your blood, get a used one.

Re:irrational...

[fotbr]

Why do Americans buy Toyotas? In my case, it is because Europeans don't have a good small truck on the American market (or any small truck, good or bad, that I'm aware of). A station wagon is not suitable substitute all the time, and SUVs and "crossovers" are overpriced and still don't fit my needs as well as a small truck does.

The more common answer, though, is simply price. Japanese cars may be mediocre, but they're quite a bit better than GM, Ford, or Chrysler (which are often similarly priced). Your option for european cars here in the states are pretty much limited to Audi, BMW, Ferrari, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Lotus, Mercedes, Porsche, Saab, Volkswagen, and Volvo. But they don't bring over their low-end models that you have in Europe, and as a result, they've created a niche market for themselves. People who don't have $40,000+ to spend on a car don't have many options from Europe, except for Volkswagen, and VW is still suffering a bit from their late-90s/early-00s spat of unreliability.

With a large number of people trying to find a way to pay for their house, and even more watching their budgets so they don't end up in financial trouble, a mediocre-but-cheaper car is going to sell a lot better than an outstanding-but-expensive car.

Re:irrational...

[TheP4st]

I think you are free to set up your own app store/distribution centre, albeit less tightly integrated into the iPhone.

Sure there is nothing to prevent you from doing so. There is one small catch though, Iphone users won't be able to install any of the applications you offer. If they can, chances are very good that you have broken some Apple patent, Copyright, whatever and will find yourself being shafted in the ass by an unholy army of corporate lawyers.

Re:irrational...

[NormalVisual]

That is the one thing Apple can offer: quality control.

You mean like the busted PMU firmware that shipped with some of the MacBooks in 2006 that caused them to shut down suddenly without warning? The same firmware that Apple denied any problems with until they quietly shipped a fix a few *months* later?

Re:irrational...

[Reality Master 101]

German cars can be more reliable than Asian cars, they're just "different" as in you MUST keep up on maintenance. Asian cars are appliances. You drive them until something big breaks and you go cut a new one out of its shrink wrapping.

Well, sheesh, ANY pile of crap will go forever if you "keep up on maintenance" (even, say, a Fiat). Not that German cars are piles of crap, but are you seriously arguing it's a design "feature" that you have to baby them otherwise they won't last? I highly doubt there's some German engineer sitting around thinking, "Ya, ve could design da engine to nicht burn ze oil, but das customzers like to tinker wit de shpringenverk."

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how exactly do you screw up a sandwich, anyway?

You could leave off the mayo or mustard?

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/mostpopular/news-article.aspx?storyid=115575&provider=top

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

Yes, or the PC LOAD LETTER error message which was _never_ fixed?

Or the completely broken APM implementation in Linux for which no-one takes responsibility?

Your argument would be identical to saying NASA doesn't have Quality Control just because a few shuttles blew up.

Thing is, Apple HAS quality control simply because they can due to their organisational structure and their business model.
Linux doesn't necessarily have it (and in case of disagreement between developers the project forks and you're "able" to choose between two similar but slightly different versions), and it can't be implemented unless someone can take control and do the QC.
Such OS QC doesn't work in many cases, since the OS model tends to eschew differentiation between developers. In other words, you need a pyramidal organisational structure to be able to do QC. This is not automatically present in OS software development.

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

Such are probably stipulated in their contract, to which one had to agree before developing starts. They are probably under no obligation to do anything with your software since it is their app store. They have not agreed to host every piece of software on their app store, and it's up to them to decide what to put on there.

It works both ways, though. If the Phone breaks using App store software, they will have to fix it, since now they are enforcing QC over it. Jailbreak the device, install your own software and break it, and they are not obligated to do anything.

Sounds to me like they are covering their asses and doing what the hell they want as well. For good and for evil.

Re:irrational...

[sqlrob]

Right, Apple would never, ever ship anything that say, broke the 64-bit subsystem.

Re:irrational...

[truespin]

Damn, my experiences couldn't be more different...

MacDonalds tastes like s**t to me and I'm an omnivore! MacDonalds is lowest common denominator food, it is tolerable for its price but that's about it. MacDonalds *is* cheap but saying it tastes awesome is a stretch too far for me!

Subway - fresh bread - WOW! Go to a Deli, you'll get nice fresh bread there and *much* nicer fillings, it'll probably be cheaper than Subway too. And Subway is *not* healthy - look and see how much fat and salt their fillings have...

My '96 Audi A3 has 125,000 miles on the clock and still running beautifully, same with the 280E Merc which has damn near 160,000 on it with no major problems with either in over a decade. YMMV Yes Japanese cars do pretty well in the long term (now a days) - but they devalue SOOOO quickly too - at least the German cars hold their value pretty well.

Re:irrational...

[NormalVisual]

Thing is, Apple HAS quality control simply because they can due to their organisational structure and their business model.

And my point was that even with those procedures in place, they still sometimes release crap at premium prices, actively deny the existence of problems even when confronted with irrefutable evidence of them, yet the fanboys will still defend them as if they could turn water to wine. It's as bad as the Amiga freaks from 20 years ago.

Incidentally, I say this as the owner of an Apple II+, Apple IIe, a Mac Classic II, iMac G3, iBook G3, Power Mac G4-DP, MacBook, and three iPods. The early machines were awesome, and I've yet to have problems with any of the iPods. However, I consider the MacBook purchase to be a mistake and based on my experiences I wouldn't purchase another one, and the G4 sits idle in the corner because I refuse to pay $200 for a damn power supply that would cost $39 for any other machine and really should not have failed to begin with. The iMac is also out with hardware problems. In my experience, the machines that Apple builds today simply aren't comparable in quality to what they used to produce, and frankly the Windows XP box I built for day-to-day use and the assortment of Linux servers I've built have proven to be much more reliable (both hardware and software) than any Apple PC I've bought since 2000.

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

Linux developers would never, ever ship anything that say, wasn't finished or would break some thing else... Oh no, wait, they do: They just call it version 0.4c, and note that they are not responsible for anything.

Are we done with the examples yet?

Quality control is to prevent the majority of the flaws form reaching the public, be it either UI design flaws, usability flaws or programming flaws. In the end, though, QC cannot be perfect unless the programmers are. Every company, except those selling hot air, cannot guarantee the functioning of their product, but they can certainly try to get close to perfection.

Re:irrational...

[Nadaka]

Have you priced a BMW truck lately? My Toyota truck has nearly 200k miles on it and it runs like a dream. For an investment significantly lower than anything I could get from BMW.

The only truck I have personal experience with that is comparable to the qaulity/cost of Toyota is Chevy. Ford is just a joke at this point. And I haven't had a Nissan yet, my Toyota has lasted too long to think about switching.

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

I understand the bitterness, looks like you've had more than your fair share of shit delivered on your lap. So far I've been pretty content with my G4 PB and assorted iPods, but I'll be sure to shell out for the overpriced insurance once I replace the powerbook. With stories like yours, can't be too careful, and with the way I treat my stuff, not getting the Applecare or similar insurance would be plain insane.

I'm not going back to the horrors of Windows, though, that has managed to literally pull the blood from under my fingernails for four years (and the laptop it came with also had to be repaired a whopping 13 times in those 4 years. Bloody Fujitsu-Siemens).

Anyway, I deviated. Yes, I agree there's shit coming out of Apple, and I hope they can get it together soon (more so because my G4 is up for replacement). Perhaps they grew too fast again, leaving QC too small to cope.

So far, though, it looks like it will take a while for the Open Source movement to come up with an appealing alternative for my purposes, and I have a major gripe with people that advocate OS as the only way to go forwards, because it sure isn't [the only way]. Hence my vitriol in earlier posts.

Re:irrational...

[MindlessAutomata]

Subway is delicious but c'mon,McDonalds tastes awesome? It's some of the most bland fast food I've ever tasted--Burger King tends to be better, IMO. Even though I never eat at either, I'm more of a Taco Bell person.

Re:irrational...

[NormalVisual]

So far, though, it looks like it will take a while for the Open Source movement to come up with an appealing alternative for my purposes, and I have a major gripe with people that advocate OS as the only way to go forwards, because it sure isn't [the only way].

You'll get no argument from me there, as I'm pretty agnostic regarding platforms - I use what works for me and I don't get religious about any of them. I'm pretty happy with the server-side offerings in the open-source world, and I can work easily enough with the desktop side, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be in order to find success in the general market. There sadly seems to be more energy expended bickering about things that finding out what needs to happen to make OSS more appealing to the masses.

Re:irrational...

[sqlrob]

How do you not test one of the major subsystems that was COMPLETELY broken, as in the simplest test app wouldn't work when you have a QA department?

Re:irrational...

[toQDuj]

There sadly seems to be more energy expended bickering about things that finding out what needs to happen to make OSS more appealing to the masses.

I think that is because the answer is not very appealing: more hierarchy in the development. That means that even though you spend your free time programming on OSS, You might "have to" program a part or set that you're not really all that into. Decisions will have to be made on UI design which are consistent and not always popular (i.e. the decision to drop some functionality in favour of usability, meaning that someone will see their hard work "wasted").

Such a structure can only be done by putting a non-programmer (but a designer instead) in charge of UI design and others in charge of the other aspects of the programming, and having a whole team of willing "lackeys" to to the brunt of the work. This set-up, however, is completely the reverse of the "everyone is in control"-OSS-mentality.

This people inherently do not like (without being paid for their work), so they bicker and argue without ever coming to an agreement. The biggest advances in OSS, I think, is when a big corporation donates a chunk of software or resources to work on it.

That said, there are some cases in which the "democratic method" seems to have worked to a certain degree, see for example the Gimp. Smaller projects with smaller teams (two or three) also tend to work out quite nicely. So the trick will be to get small teams to work together on something bigger :).

B.

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

Ford is just a joke at this point.

YMMV. The vehicle I drive to work, because its good on gas and I don't mind getting into a collision with it, is my 4-cylinder manual transmission Ford Ranger with almost 150,000 miles on it. Runs like a top and I've never had to do anything more than the usual required maintenance.

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

YMMV. The truck I drive most often is a 4-cylinder manual transmission Ford Ranger with almost 150,000 miles on it. Runs like a top, and I've never had to do more than the usual maintenance on it (oil changes, brakes, tires, etc.)

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

Oops. Posted twice. Just ignore this one.

Re:irrational...

[MaWeiTao]

Successful brands offer something consumers find valuable. Be it quality, convenience, exclusivity, cost-savings or merely coolness. It is possible to have a brand elevated to a point where it survives on reputation and consumers become overly tolerant of problems.

Then you've got the reverse where some brands have taken on a negative stigma, and in some cases deservedly so. The problem is that the negative stigma sometimes persists longer than it should or is exaggerated.

Apple is in the fortunate situation that they're still riding high on their popularity. The problem is that as their base grows more consumers become aware of problems. If Apple persists with some of it's practices it's only a matter of time before it turns into another Microsoft. The same thing already seems to be happening with Google, actually.

Regarding the statement about cars, Honda and Toyota are still at the top in reliability. However, I do agree people are irrational in their acclaim for these cars.

As far as the Germans are concerned, in terms of design and making the driver feel good they're unmatched. They're always doing interesting things. The problem is that they over-complicate everything. And frankly they have big issues with reliability. They're consistently rated among the worst in reliability, below the Americans. But they do know how to make desirable cars.

Re:irrational...

[MosesJones]

Because it tastes awesome.

Some things just can't be ignored.

McDonald's does not "taste awesome" it tastes like a push fried burger made from frozen "meat" which might be 100% but certainly tastes nothing like any burger I've made and BBQ'd myself. I'm pretty much as far away from a vegan as you can get but the fries are crap and the burgers are rubbish, if its 11pm and you have the munchies then fine, but "awesome" for that you need to go to the Fat Duck that man can do things to animals that make them line up to be killed.

Yes its OT, but come one, McDonald's as "awesome" tasting? That's like saying Windows ME was Awesome in the beef eating pantheon of quality.

Re:irrational...

[Nadaka]

Let me tell you about the best ford I have ever owned. It was a Mark 1 escort rally car that was given to me for free while I was in college, i loved driving it and it was worth every penny.

It was however a death trap. I had to bolt the drivers seat to the frame because the floor board had rusted through and the plywood I put down wasn't stable enough, the drivers side door was held closed by a bungee chord and the exhaust vented directly into the cars cab so I had to drive with the windows down even in the rain.

Re:irrational...

[Dun Malg]

...and VW is price-competitive across the board.

As a VW nut who has owned everything from a 50's beetle, to an 80's Vanagon, to a 21st century Jetta, I can assure you that VW automobiles are not members of the set referenced by the statement "Germans know how to engineer good cars". There's a lot of fiendishly clever engineering, but when it comes to VW vehicles (particularly the electrical systems) the word "good" is thoroughly incorrect. Granted, some of that is due to what German auto manufacturers consider "good engineering" vs what engineers building for the US market think. German vehicles are not designed to be treated as appliances, but rather carefully and diligently maintained. A classic example is the mid-80's Vanagon, with its water cooled boxer engine. A coolant loss incident would blow the head seals almost instantly. Running water without antifreeze would cause corrosion which would also lead to head seal failure. An American auto engineer would look at such an engine design and ask "Hey, what happens when cousin Cletus ignores a minor coolant leak and the system is run only half filled with tap water?" A German engineer would reply "WHY would anyone DO such a preposterous thing?!?!" It's good to keep that subtle engineering culture difference in mind when discussing "German engineering".

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

Why do people give Ford grief about some ancient car they drove in college? If you want to compare Toyota to Ford by lumping in cars from the 1950s, then lump in Toyota's cars from the 1950s. I'll bet they made pieces of crap back then, too.

Re:irrational...

[Dun Malg]

Why do Americans buy Toyotas? In my case, it is because Europeans don't have a good small truck on the American market (or any small truck, good or bad, that I'm aware of).

Blame the "Chicken Tax". In 1963 Germany passed an import tariff on chicken to protect their domestic poultry market. In typical bizarro-world political thinking, congress passed a retaliatory import tariff of 25 fucking percent on commercial vehicles. The chicken tariff in chickens is long gone, but the 25% "chicken tax" on trucks is still there. Trucks and commercial vehicles are pretty much the only decent source of revenue for the domestic auto manufacturers, so they lobby VERY hard to keep that bullshit protection in place. Toyota et al have built factories in the US to get around the tax, but the closest the Euros have done is the Sprinter van partial assembly plant in South Carolina. The strength of the Euro combined with the chicken tax pretty much precludes us ever seeing a European commercial vehicle imported in any noteworthy quantity, at any reasonable price. Hell, I'd love a VW TDI Crafter van for work, but that'll never happen...

Re:irrational...

[morgan_greywolf]

Actually, aside from the VWs horrible electrical system (which I agree with you, there), VWs have one advantage over their American counterparts: if you do the diligent and careful maintenance you describe, your VW will just keep going, as opposed to the American cars that are built on the philosophy of 'planned obsolescence.' American cars are built to be disposable.

Re:irrational...

[Dun Malg]

Yes, or the PC LOAD LETTER error message which was _never_ fixed?

The implication was that Apple's QC is somehow better because of their "iron fist" control over the platform. With the exception of Linux APM where there is no QC because there's no one running the show, your examples simply illustrate that Apple's QC is just like everyone else's, and that the "iron fist" approach clearly isn't the only way to get there.

Re:irrational...

[Dun Malg]

You should use != for "not equal". Anyone on slashdot who can't parse THAT is beneath contempt!

Re:irrational...

[Dragoness Eclectic]

As someone who buys used cars because new cars are too damn expensive, the idea that a really reliable car devalues very quickly rather excites me. Means I can pick up a good car at a good price only a few years old...

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

Subway - fresh bread - WOW! Go to a Deli, you'll get nice fresh bread there and *much* nicer fillings, it'll probably be cheaper than Subway too.

Not in New York:

Subway Sandwich: $5.00
Deli Sandwich: $8.00

That's why people (at least in NY) who don't own 3 condos go to Subway.

Re:irrational...

[Nadaka]

I would note that was the BEST ford I ever had the opportunity to drive. I loved that car, the only reason I gave it up is that my girlfriend refused to ride with me and she kept worrying I would get pneumonia from the fumes/weather.

I also had a 1992 escort, my sister had a 1998 escort, my brother had a 2002 Tourus and a 2006 f150, my fiance's father had a 2000 escort, and I have had ample opportunity to drive 3 or 4 other ford trucks that my friends had.

In every case they were overpriced, prone to break down, had poor efficiency and horrible handling.

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

In my opinion all cars are built to be disposable these days. Some are engineered better than others, but 20 years from now when you fry one of the multitude of exotic parts in your ride good luck getting a replacement.

Think about classic car shows, these cars still go because they don't have a idle control computer and a DPFE sensor, they have an engine and a carb..oh, and some nice tires.

FWIW, my oldest car right now is a 65' dodge. All original drivetrain, apparently planned obsolescence missed this one.

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

It may be just me but I really don't get why apple has such a big fanbase, seeing as how they treat their customers...

Apple actually treats their customers pretty well. But, this isn't about customers directly - this is about developers - and yeah, Apple is treating them like dirt atm regarding the iPhone App Store.

Re:irrational...

[Dirk Pitt]

McDonald's tastes "awesome"?! The fries are quite good, but the rest is utter shit. I mean I can see some people saying 'it tastes fine' - but "awesome"? You need to get out more - your tongue has been shellacked with HFCS. I am not a vegan and enjoy many foods, including some of the 'fast' variety.

And Subway is terrible. They use extremely low-quality, pre-sliced meat. Baking up some previously-frozen dough doesn't make up for that. I have a friend who is a meat inspector, and she won't eat there. 'Nuff said.

He's right - it's marketing. They know their market - cheap - and they sell to it hard.

Unrelated IMHO - Japanese cars do have great long-term quality, but they've always lacked the feel of their German counterparts. Completely sterile. They are cars for non-car people. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re:irrational...

[Macrat]

Yeah, having a platform that "just works" is just sooo terrible for customers.

Re:irrational...

[Macrat]

Why do so many people like Subway?

Oh, because they use fresh baked bread? Because it's fairly healthy? And how exactly do you screw up a sandwich, anyway?

I guess you haven't been to a Subway in a while. They found a way to screw up a sandwich by putting less and less on it in order to cut costs.

Re:irrational...

[Draek]

Why do so many people go to McDonald's?

Because, as another poster so insightfully said a long time ago, McDonald's is *constant* shit. It tastes like shit in Chicago, it tastes like shit in Pekin, and it tastes like shit in Rio de Janeiro, but it tastes like the *same* shit, and the ability to go to any store of the brand and *know* how food will taste is worth it having taste so shitty for some people.

Why do so many people like Subway?

Beats me, I don't even know which market are they in. One of the perks of being from outside the US.

Why do so many people people drive Toyotas?

Because they (and Japanese brands in general) are much cheaper than German brands, and much, much more reliable than Chinese ones. I'd buy an Audi if I could, don't get me wrong, but alas, I'm not the CEO of a large company.

Re:irrational...

[mgblst]

It comes down to one word: Marketing.

No it doesn't just come down to that, since as far as I know, all car companies Market their products.

It comes down to price, customer loyalty, friends, location, loads and loads of factors, with marketing being just one of these, and possible not the biggest.

Re:irrational...

[toddestan]

Really? My experience with VW is that they start to fall apart after about 5-6 years. You'll have all sorts of problems, not just electical. Problems with the engine, transmission, fuel system, the body hardware falling apart, water leaking into the cabin, the power windows falling into the doors, etc. I'm always amazed when I talk to VW owners and have to listen to the stuff that they put up with that would be unheard of on my Japanese car (c'mon VW, even the Americans can design power windows that don't fail after 3 years!). Usually it's no surprise to me when their next car is not a VW. I find it pretty rare to find a German made car on the road that's older than about 12 years - usually they're sitting in the scrap yard at that point, as the owner is sick of sinking thousands of dollars worth of repairs into it. This doesn't apply to classics, of course. Old air-cooled VWs and diesel Mercedes will just keep on running and running and running.

American made cars actually aren't that bad, I just find that people's perception of them is that they are only designed to last about 10 years, and treat them accordingly by neglecting them once they get to about 7-8 years old and the car degrades from there. An interesting case to look at is the Chevy Prism vs. the Toyota Corolla (same car, different badges, different reliability ratings). That, and the American manufacturers will intentionally cheapen lower end models in hopes that you'll buy a higher end vehicle, and it shows (just compare the European Ford Focus to the American version, for example). The exception would be Chrysler, which seems to design everything out of the cheapest possible materials, and are made to last exactly 70,000 miles for some reason.

I actually find that the Japanese cars are the most "disposable" judging by the way they put them together. They just don't seem like they were built to be taken apart and serviced easily, especially Hondas. Luckily they are so incredibly reliable that you can pretty much weld the hood shut and still get 100,000 miles out of it. Chances are you'll never have to replace that power steering pump or master cylinder, but if you do, be prepared to take the entire front half the car apart because that's about what'll take to get to the damn thing.

Re:irrational...

[toddestan]

How does Volvo get around this then, as I see Volvo commercial vehicles all over the place? Is it that they build them in the US to get around the "chicken tax", or are they still competitive despite the 25% penalty?

Re:irrational...

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably know a lot of people with late 90s/early 00s Jettas. They were crap. There are plenty of late 80s/early 90s Jettas and other VWs going strong.

Re:irrational...

[RegularFry]

Not only that, but they're increasingly designed to prevent non-approved maintenance beyond the absolute basics. I've seen patent applications for "smart bolts" that you can only undo with a wrench that can perform the right crypto handshake for precisely this purpose.

There are valid reasons for doing this; some things really aren't user-serviceable, to the extent that anyone messing with them *needs* to know what they're doing or they put other people at risk (brake systems, for instance - unstable dynamic braking systems can be lethal). The conversations I kept hearing when I worked for a large European car manufacturer were more about maintaining the monopoly on the maintenance market, though, and that's just not good.

Sometimes the solution to morale problems

[HungryHobo]

is just to fire all the unhappy people, or make sure the reasons they're unhappy get a non disclosure clause attached.

I'm curious what the power of this thing is? If someone complains and discloses that their app was rejected then will they be forbidden from making any more apps or could they be sued/proseuted?

What else do you expect...

[iamapizza]

I hear that the Apple NDAs are sent in glossy white envelopes to the developers, with the Apple logo on the outside and a grouping of pointless logic on the inside. But at least it looks good, so let's blame it on Microsoft anyways.

Re:What else do you expect...

[Shivetya]

We can, if Windows Mobile was better we would not have to use Apple products!

Re:What else do you expect...

[steelfood]

The paper has also been embued with the subtly fragrance of a fresh ripe McIntosh apple.

You Linux and M$ weenies just don't get it!

[Vinegar Joe]

It's all about ©The Experience!

Not good

[Teese]

Apple needs to fix this. It should never have been allowed to get this bad.

Re:Not good

[Ash-Fox]

Apple needs to fix this. It should never have been allowed to get this bad.

You are correct. Apple will begin fixing this by suing Slashdot for revealing their trade secrets.

Re:Not good

[Anonymous Coward]

When does people learn that Apple is a company that wants 100% control with EVERYTHING, and they dont give a shit about their customer.

They are a LOT worse than other companies like Microsoft.

Apple's products are extremely non flexible, they are restricted, and the hype around them are sickening, and in a lot of cases, pure lying.

Re:Not good

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, dumbfuck, the problem is APPLE itself!

The sheeple buying apple shit deserve every last bit of DRM apple pours their way.

Re:Not good

[drt1245]

Apple needs to fix this. It should never have been allowed to get this bad.

They shouldn't be allowed? Who should stop them? No one is forcing anyone to buy an iPhone, if you don't like it, don't buy one. Companies should be allowed to make stupid decisions.

Re:Not good

[Teese]

Apple should never have allowed it to get this bad. I'm not advocating congressional intervention, or lawsuits. Apple needs to get this settled, and never should have allowed this bad idea to get this far. They still haven't said anything publicly about this either.

Oh WEEE Oh... Oh WAAHHHHHH Oh...

[kd4zqe]

I'm waiting for Slashdot to update its category image for Apple with the "Bill of Borg" image reserved for Micro$oft stories. Apparently, Jobs and his minions are really stealing back concepts of "Squash the User and Their Rights" in exchange for the UI thefts of years past. I'll admit that I wasn't much of an Apple Fainboi over the years, and it was only last Christmas that I broke down and bought an 80GB iPod Classic over my USB Mass Storage models I've always used. I just never thought that Apple would stoop so low as to say, "Here is a development platform to create ANYTHING you think there would be a demand for," and then turn around and say "Oh, no.. You can't make that. WE'RE doing that. Oh, BTW... don't tell anyone what Jerks we are. We have a reputation to uphold." I thought Apple's main goals were to innovate and empower the people, and turn a nice profit while doing so.

Aparrently, empowerment doesn't apply to [snootytone]"Those programmer people...UGH!"[/snootytone]

Re:Oh WEEE Oh... Oh WAAHHHHHH Oh...

[Finallyjoined!!!]

I thought Apple's main goals were to innovate and empower the people

"innovate"?, when have Apple "innovated" in the past? I thought they just nicked someone elses idea and tarted it up to look shiny!

Re:Oh WEEE Oh... Oh WAAHHHHHH Oh...

[Paradigm_Complex]

I'm waiting for Slashdot to update its category image for Apple with the "Bill of Borg" image reserved for Micro$oft stories.

The Borg image wasn't just applied to MS because they're evil, but how they went about it. Like the Borg, either you join them or they destroy you, and like the Borg their technological advancement is largely just a rip off of other people's ideas.

Gotta come up with something different for Apple.

Hmm... Apple reminds me of of the Vulcans. They do a lot of good stuff (contributions to F/OSS with things like Webkit and Darwin) and do help give tech/humanity a push in the right direction every now and then but they still hold back real progress at times with things like this. Give Jobs pointy ears and throw 'em up there.

Re:Oh WEEE Oh... Oh WAAHHHHHH Oh...

[kd4zqe]

I thought Apple's main goals were to innovate and empower the people

"innovate"?, when have Apple "innovated" in the past? I thought they just nicked someone elses idea and tarted it up to look shiny!

I was referring to their publicly admitted goals... unfortunately, rarely are true goals ever admitted these days.

Ha ha, oh man!

[ZorbaTHut]

Apple? Abusing their power to keep people from talking about their product in any way that is not authorized by the Apple marketing department? Why, I can't tell you how long it's been since I've heard a similar story about them doing this sort of thing!

No, I don't mean it's been a long time. I mean I literally can't tell you. I'm not legally allowed to.

Sorry.

(Joking . . . mostly.)

Well, duh!

[David Gerard]

"Fuck it, we're evil," said Steve Jobs to an audience of soul-mortgaged thralls. "But our stuff is sooo good. You'll keep taking our abuse. You love it, you worm. Because our stuff is great. It's shiny and it's pretty and it's cool and it works. It's not like youâ(TM)ll go back to a Windows Mobile phone. Ha! Ha!"

It's foolish to have expected anything else. As Neal Stephenson put it in In The Beginning Was The Command Line:

THE NOT-SO-CHARITABLE EXPLANATION has to do with Apple's corporate culture, which is rooted in Bay Area Baby Boomdom.

Now, since I'm going to talk for a moment about culture, full disclosure is probably in order, to protect myself against allegations of conflict of interest and ethical turpitude: (1) Geographically I am a Seattleite, of a Saturnine temperament, and inclined to take a sour view of the Dionysian Bay Area, just as they tend to be annoyed and appalled by us. (2) Chronologically I am a post-Baby Boomer. I feel that way, at least, because I never experienced the fun and exciting parts of the whole Boomer scene--just spent a lot of time dutifully chuckling at Boomers' maddeningly pointless anecdotes about just how stoned they got on various occasions, and politely fielding their assertions about how great their music was. But even from this remove it was possible to glean certain patterns, and one that recurred as regularly as an urban legend was the one about how someone would move into a commune populated by sandal-wearing, peace-sign flashing flower children, and eventually discover that, underneath this facade, the guys who ran it were actually control freaks; and that, as living in a commune, where much lip service was paid to ideals of peace, love and harmony, had deprived them of normal, socially approved outlets for their control-freakdom, it tended to come out in other, invariably more sinister, ways.

Applying this to the case of Apple Computer will be left as an exercise for the reader, and not a very difficult exercise.

It is a bit unsettling, at first, to think of Apple as a control freak, because it is completely at odds with their corporate image. Weren't these the guys who aired the famous Super Bowl ads showing suited, blindfolded executives marching like lemmings off a cliff? Isn't this the company that even now runs ads picturing the Dalai Lama (except in Hong Kong) and Einstein and other offbeat rebels?

It is indeed the same company, and the fact that they have been able to plant this image of themselves as creative and rebellious free-thinkers in the minds of so many intelligent and media-hardened skeptics really gives one pause. It is testimony to the insidious power of expensive slick ad campaigns and, perhaps, to a certain amount of wishful thinking in the minds of people who fall for them. It also raises the question of why Microsoft is so bad at PR, when the history of Apple demonstrates that, by writing large checks to good ad agencies, you can plant a corporate image in the minds of intelligent people that is completely at odds with reality. (The answer, for people who don't like Damoclean questions, is that since Microsoft has won the hearts and minds of the silent majority--the bourgeoisie--they don't give a damn about having a slick image, any more then Dick Nixon did. "I want to believe,"--the mantra that Fox Mulder has pinned to his office wall in The X-Files--applies in different ways to these two companies; Mac partisans want to believe in the image of Apple purveyed in those ads, and in the notion that Macs are somehow fundamentally different from other computers, while Windows people want to believe that they are getting something for their money, engaging in a respectable business transaction).

It's as applicable now as it was in the late 1990s. That bit of Apple's corporate culture is straight from Steve Jobs.

Does Steve know?

[toQDuj]

Why do they insist on shooting themselves in the foot like this? I somehow suspect that the App store is led by an inexperienced team, and that Steve only has sideline control over the operation of that one. I think he would not be so foolish as to create this much bad publicity. He may be an (ass/strict ruler), but he's certainly not this stupid and he should know that this behaviour will come back to bite him later on. I'm interested in hearing the full story once upon a time.

Re:Does Steve know?

[Colonel Korn]

Why do they insist on shooting themselves in the foot like this? I somehow suspect that the App store is led by an inexperienced team, and that Steve only has sideline control over the operation of that one. I think he would not be so foolish as to create this much bad publicity. He may be an (ass/strict ruler), but he's certainly not this stupid and he should know that this behaviour will come back to bite him later on. I'm interested in hearing the full story once upon a time.

This is precisely consistent with his business and personal history.

Re:Does Steve know?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can anyone really be as naive as you're being?

Steve is exactly the sort of person that would mandate such policy in the first place.

Re:Does Steve know?

[ruin20]

Why do they insist on shooting themselves in the foot like this?

Because the gun's not loaded, lets face it, most people will not be upset about this, and if a feature is that freaking cool that it needs to be developed or you're going to have mass panic, then Apple will do it themselves.

The user isn't going to care how the company treats the developer, especially now that the developer is being banned from complaining. Their competition is development on other platforms, and even then, their lack of media text messages or copy-and-paste functionality, must have features of two to three years ago, shows that even if there is big features missing, their consumer base isn't going to care.

Re:Does Steve know?

[toQDuj]

I see. Even with a few developers pissed off, the influx of new programs for a relatively successful platform will not be harmed. In the end, the successful developers might even deride the pissed off developers, perhaps publicly so, further reinforcing the position of the platform.

I understand the problems of copy-and-paste functionality, though. How would you go about implementing it on the iPhone? You would have to "somehow" get a contextual menu working there, some kind of multi-tap gesture, I presume. How to get it implemented so it can be used intuitively, is beyond me.
Media messaging never really took off here (Europe) because of the exorbitant prices. How was that in the US? It seems to be a non-issue for most people, or they're willing to forego MMS in favour of the advantages of the platform. Either way it seems quite profitable.

B.

Re:Does Steve know?

[Microlith]

even if there is big features missing

If the feature is missing and people don't care, perhaps it wasn't that big to begin with?

I say this not as someone who uses and iPhone and has "rationalized" the lack of said feature but as someone who is still using a Sony-Ericsson from 2004.

Also, the lack of copy and paste stems from a lack of a real good way to do it within Apple's UI guidelines for the interface. Think, for a second, how you would do so with the guidelines they impose?

More info needed

[OhHellWithIt]

TFA says the rejection letter claims the contents are under a non-disclosure agreement. It would be interesting to know whether the App Store developers signed any sort of NDA that would include their disclosing communications between Apple and them. If not, I don't think the NDA Apple claims is binding.

From everything I've heard about the iPhone, I have no interest in it, and I'm rapidly losing interest in Apple's computer products. I guess I ought to sell that Apple stock of mine -- once the market comes back to life.

Boycott

[jav1231]

Look the number of developers for Apple apps has to be finite. Pretty damn finite relative to other markets. Yes some of them are making some bank but these developers should just stop updating their apps. Or better yet, all agree to place a notice in their next update in protest. This could be stopped if they worked together.

Re:Boycott

[2nd Post!]

Ah, collusion to manipulate the marketplace.

Re:Boycott

[jav1231]

Just simply deciding that without apps there's no app marketplace. It'd be different if there were a framework in place that clearly outlined what is and isn't acceptable. That wasn't there and now appears to be sort of back-filled.

Re:Boycott

[2nd Post!]

The App marketplace exists because of the number of iPhones sold, not because of the existence of Apps.

If all the developers pulled out as a matter of principle, you would still have more developers coming on board to fill the need.

Evidently there is a million dollar market, and it seems unlikely that enough "big" developers will pull out to make an impact.

That is an analysts opinion

[SmallFurryCreature]

An analysts opinion isn't worth the paper it is printed on, and this opinion ain't even printed.

Both phones are less then perfect and missing some "we don't think you need this, so you don't get it" features.

But the analyst is an idiot because he talks about the lack of iTunes. Yeah, because people care about that. Oh, they don't. First off, most music on digital players is ripped from CD's, or obtained through other means in mp3 format. iTunes is very small potatoes in the global music industry and even Apple knows that the iPod a far bigger player in the digital music player isn't always going to be used for iTunes content, which is why Apple gives you the tools needed to convert iTunes music to MP3 format or burn it to a CD.

The idea that a new platform needs to be compatible with iTunes is silly.

The bigger problem is lack of office compatibiltiy. While MS does offer you ways to export your documents in more general formats, that could be the real killer. The iPhone is bought by people who buy Apple and so accept that it is NOT going to be all that compatible with MS software. But android doesn't have the Apple logo, what is its excuse for not being MS compatible?

In a way, I don't think the iPhone and Android are even competitors. iPhone is a single product offered by a company that has no other phones. Android is a platform that any phone maker can use. It would be like saying the Smart Car competes with Honda Engines. Does the iPhone compete with Windows Mobile or Symbian? No, it competes with other phones, specific models, not OS/Platforms. if this google phone fails, there are plenty of others coming out soon, while Apple can hardly afford to start making dozens of phones and a new one every season to suit the tastes of the customer. Neither can google, but the phonemakers can.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[rmccann]

what is its excuse for not being MS compatible?

It is Microsofts fault for not making itself combatible with 3rd party things.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[JoeMerchant]

If $1B is a small potato - give me 2.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

what is its excuse for not being MS compatible?

It is Microsofts fault for not making itself combatible with 3rd party things.

Modded Informative? Really? It's Microsoft's fault for not making themselves compatible with Google's product? Perhaps the reality distortion field has gone far enough. There are plenty of ways to make yourself compatible with MS Office especially the new formats and we've seen it done before. I don't like Microsoft business practices either but it's silly to blame this on MS and then Mod it Informative. The /. community never ceases to amaze me with how good it is at times and how horrid it is at timea.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[ozphx]

Oh thats a good one...

Why won't this stupid Enter Comment box read speech from my brain? Damn you Taco! You sure suck at the development!

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[JasterBobaMereel]

Can I run Android on an iPhone ....?

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[SQLGuru]

My life has been filled with a Potato Famine.

Layne

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[SenseiLeNoir]

This is not informative to the context of the discussion. Fault MS all you like, but one thing, its Windows Mobile OS does not have half the draconian measures Apple has on its iPhone OS. It is possible to make and run any application, even where they duplicate existing functionality.

As for compatiblity, even if Active Sync does NOT support third party plug-ins easily, you are free to develop your own sync platform, such as ones utilizing SynchML.

the iPhone doesnt even allow you to replace iTunes as the music Sync application. Most Windows Mobile phones on the other hand can either support USB mass storage (or a wrapper that simulates it) on the device, or at the very least allow you to put your Memory card into a reader, to copy your songs. The in-built Media Player, will automatically search for and add songs to the library on first run, and can be requested to search there after.

The Windows Media Player sync is optional (only required if you have some DRM songs).

Otherwise, nothing stopping you from adding some MP3s,MIDIs etc onto the device. And if you want to support other formats, there are many free and commercial media players (TCPMP is one such free one, Nero Mobile is a commercial one, which also provides support for DNLA).

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[TheP4st]

But android doesn't have the Apple logo, what is its excuse for not being MS compatible?

That it don't have the MS logo.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

what is its excuse for not being MS compatible?

It is Microsofts fault for not making itself combatible with 3rd party things.

Chicken and the egg, sir.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[Firehed]

The idea that a new platform needs to be compatible with iTunes is silly.

No, it's not silly at all. iTunes has a stupidly high market share among "jukebox" software thanks to the ubiquity of the iPod - that means that tens if not hundreds of millions of people have their music collections sitting in iTunes, and more importantly they're used to just plugging in their device and syncing music across.

It'll be a significant blow to any music-oriented phone if that isn't present.

I don't necessarily mean that it has to work with the iTunes DRM from the music store purchases. Like you said, most libraries consist primarily of content ripped from CDs or downloaded off of $P2PServiceOfChoice. But given the option, people will likely choose a product that will sync nicely with their existing content. Hell, it was a VERY large part of why I got the iPhone with so many other options out there.

And you should really get more informed about Office support - the iPhone can read Word, Excel, and Powerpoint just fine (as well as the iWork formats), which is more than most phones can say. Plus it now has the native Exchange support. Of course, the only way to get files on there is via an email attachment which is flatly stupid (if that weren't the case, then there'd be no reason not to see editing apps on the device), but there's no reason that can't change.

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

chicken, egg...MS Office, open office, Lotus...

3rd parties CAN and HAVE done the compatibility thing for ages with MS Office...

ZZZZOOOOOOMMMM there goes a clue, catch it fast (unless you are stuck on the MS hatewagon like other kiddies without a clue)

Re:That is an analysts opinion

[Oqnet]

No but google could have developed a mobile version of openoffice if there isn't one already. That would be a killer app, but the benifit with the androise is that you can develop it yourself if you wanted to.

They don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

... They don't. And Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo do the same exact thing a thousand times a day and people don't give a damn either.

This is what it's like with closed platforms. Apple's is more open than most, but the fact remains that it's closed. The fact that Apple's decided to source amature developers to do most of their platform heavy lifting and Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo decided to source major companies is the only difference here.

If you buy into a closed platform, you should be used to this. Every time you buy a video game that only works on one of these company's computers, you've already experienced it. Some games are rejected because the companies just don't want them on their platform. Sometimes they've got competing products. Sometimes they just laugh and walk away. It happens every day.

The developer's signed up for this. By accepting the SDK, they said "Apple's in control, we just write the app and get payment when it sells." That's it.

Not Open

[Vladus2000]

The iPhone to Apple is not a truly open platform. This is just an attempt to hide that fact from their users, most of whom will side with Apple anyway. I do not think they want truly innovative apps on their phone, perhaps its a little of "not invented here" syndrome.

I doubt it has any legal standing either, I get emails from a friend's work account all the time with a standard NDA message across the bottom, I don't even think twice about not following it.

For those of us that loathe Apple, this just adds to the pile. I'm sure the loyal crew will find some way to rationalize this and look past it.

Re:Not Open

[archeopterix]

The iPhone to Apple is not a truly open platform.

In other news: a rabid tiger on steroids and methampetamine is not a truly friendly animal.

Andriod is no threat

[mr_gerbik]

I don't know about Apple, but I'm reasonably sure that Android is not a threat to the iPhone. Ooooh.. a big clunky phone with half the functionality and 1/10th the sex appeal of the iPhone! Watch out Apple!

What's that? It doesn't have a headphone jack, it can't play movies, it also cannot tether and is locked in to a carrier? Wow.. sounds like a real iPhone killer to me.

Hate to break it to you Android-gives-me-a-boner-nerds, but you make up about 0.1% of the population. The rest of the world buys their phone because they see flashy advertisements and their favorite celebrities using the iPhone.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[TheJasper]

Hate to break it to you fanboy, but most of the rest of the world doesn't use iPhones either.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[hacker]

What's that? It doesn't have a headphone jack, it can't play movies, it also cannot tether and is locked in to a carrier? Wow.. sounds like a real iPhone killer to me.

What's that?

1. No replaceable battery?
2. Proprietary charging/data connector?
3. Restrictive "mono" bluetooth support?
4. Can't use non-Apple headsets?
5. Doesn't sync to Linux?
6. Have to jailbreak it to return function other handsets have by default?
7. Ridiculously-restrictive AppStore?
8. Can't install my own applications without a signed NDA and key?
9. Fragile glass face?
10. No proper keyboard?
11. Camera can't record video?
12. No memory card support?
13. Capacitive touchscreen (not resistive)?

Sounds like a Star-Tac killer to me, but my 5 year old PalmOS-based Treo trumps the iPhone in almost every single feature. The iPhone does not provide any new functionality, not revolutionary in any way, and there were plenty of full-screen, touch handsets out before the iPhone hit the market.

The one, the ONLY thing Apple has going for them is marketing. That's it.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[shutdown -p now]

The upcoming phone is not "the Android" - it's merely the first phone to be sold based on the Android platform. I agree that it's not all that good, but there are more to come, and all the limitations you mention are not inherent to the Android platform (also, I would expect that SIM lock and no-tethering arrangement will both be dropped in saner markets - i.e., Canada and EU).

As for the "sex appeal"... is that what you're after in a phone? Really?

Re:Andriod is no threat

[2nd Post!]

Besides marketing, you forget UI.

A better web browser, a better app store, a better MP3 player, a better video player, etc all trump your Treo.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite funny because that's exactly how I compare the iPhone to the N95 or the 6210 Navigator. The iPhone is more clunky, locked to a single carrier has 1/100th the functionality and in the case of the Navigator even costs £200 more.

I'll stick to my smaller, cheaper, more powerful, more feature rich, far far quicker to use (no silly on screen keyboard, a proper keypad), carrier neutral Navigator thanks.

Just a taster of the feature the iPhone doesn't have that my cheap yet blatantly superior Navigator does have:
- GPS
- Full bluetooth support
- Support for Java and C/C++ apps
- MMS support
- High quality video with camera ...I could go on but you get the picture.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Fahrvergnuugen]

Holy christ, why am I feeding the troll.

1. Do you complain about your car not having a replaceable engine? No - it lasts the life of the car. When it wears out, you buy a new car or have a mechanic (if you're not capable) replace the engine.
2. As if its difficult to find a dock connector cable. There are hundreds of millions of them out there and the spec/pinout is openly published. The iPod dock connector is so ubiquitous, car manufacturers are building cars with them built in. How many cars can you order with a USB connector?
3. Yes, the mono bluetooth is annoying.
4. WTF? You can use any 1/8 headset that doesn't have an oversized fat connector with the first gen iphone's recessed jack (including bose noise cancelling headphones and sennheisers). The 3G iphone has a flush jack. The first android phone doesn't even have a 1/8" headphone jack at all.
5. iTunes isn't available for Linux. Neither is photoshop. Cry me a river. Next you'll bitch about it not supporting ogg.
6. Like what??
7. Yes it has limitations. But calling it "ridiculously restrictive" is ridiculous in itself. It's sold more apps than any cell phone marketplace ever. Some develeopers are raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars PER MONTH. Yeah, the app store is so ridiculously restrictive it's going to collapse any day now...
8. Take your ball and go home. If you don't like Apple's rules or the design of the iPhone, don't buy an iPhone.
9. Fragile? Where did you hear that? The iPhone is by far the sturdiest phone I've ever owned, and that includes the construction oriented "rugged" phones that Nextel makes. Stop with your FUD already.
10. It has a QWERTY keyboard. If a touch screen keyboard isn't "proper", refer to #8.
11. The camera CAN record video and there are FREE applications in that overly restrictive app store that let you record video with it. Just because the built in photo application doesn't record video, doesn't mean the functionally doesn't exist.
12. Nope. You can get 8 or 16GB of space. If you need more, don't buy it.
13. What's wrong with a capacitive touchscreen? Have you ever even used an iPhone?

I'm surprised you didn't bitch about no MMS support so you can get billed to send pictures over the proprietary cell network instead of just emailing them.

The situation with Podcaster and MailWrangler quite frankly sucks and no sane person will disagree with that. Apple's stance on this completely sucks. All we can do is complain and hope they'll listen. Generate enough bad press and something is bound to happen...

Re:Andriod is no threat

[mr_gerbik]

Lets see...

iPhone 3G has GPS, not sure how you missed that announcement.

I don't care about stereo bluetooth, sorry.

I could just as easily say that the N95 doesn't support Cocoa apps as a limitation.. your point about application language is well... pointless.

MMS support: Honestly, I don't care about this either. Why should I care that I can send some shit photo via text message when I can attach it to something more useful, like an email.

Again, I could care less about video on my phone. I have a HD handheld cam for that.

Let me ask you this... how is the web browser on your N95? I bet it doesn't beat out Safari on the iPhone... and you know what, besides using my phone for calls, the biggest feature I use is surfing the net.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[TheSpoom]

Car engines actually have these things, called batteries, that are user-replaceable...

I think it's pretty obvious who the troll is here.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Tombstone-f]

What's that? It doesn't have a headphone jack, it can't play movies, it also cannot tether and is locked in to a carrier? Wow.. sounds like a real iPhone killer to me.

What's that?

1. No replaceable battery?

I'll go back and forth about this one, without a replaceable battery the devices can be smaller which makes a nicer looking product, but I could see how you might like to have a second battery for long trips. Personally I've never had a problem with it on either of my iPods or my iPhone.

Proprietary charging/data connector?

Which has tons of 3rd party support and has extra pins for extra functionality.

Restrictive "mono" bluetooth support?

From what I've heard stereo bluetooth is low bandwidth and low quality, but I've never listened to it so I wouldn't know.

Can't use non-Apple headsets?

I know you can use non-Apple bluetooth headsets with the iPhone, do you mean wired?

Doesn't sync to Linux?

Haven't tried this, I'm sure someone with figure it out.

Have to jailbreak it to return function other handsets have by default?

What function?

Ridiculously-restrictive AppStore?

These denials are pretty bad.

Can't install my own applications without a signed NDA and key?

True.

Fragile glass face?

It's probably more breakable but it's also more scratch resistant, I like it better than the screen on my treo.

No proper keyboard?

I can type faster on my iPhone than I could on the Treo, you just type as fast as you can and the iPhone will correct nearly every mistake.

Camera can't record video?

True

No memory card support?

Also True.

Capacitive touchscreen (not resistive)?

Is this a bad thing? I suppose you can't use a stylus with it, but you don't need to either.

I'm not saying that Apple or the iPhone is perfect, but it's quite a bit better than the Treo. You are right that it does kill the Star-Tac, or at least it would've if the Star-Tac wasn't long dead.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[smoker2]

Android is not "a phone" it is the OS.
If it has bluetooth, why do you need a headphone jack ?
Who said it can't play movies ? All I saw was can't record video (yet).
Why can't it tether ?
Why is is locked to a carrier (like the iphone) ?
Because the company making the phone had to release it that way. Nothing to do with Android. Blame the carrier for that.
Apple has tried to be clever with the iphone, making a smartphone appear to be a PDA. The crucial word is appear. It still lags a decent PDA by miles. Often compared against windows mobile (which has 2 flavours, PDA and smartphone) it still does not allow the owners of the device to add their own programs, or even change provider. I am not an MS apologist, but the free market for apps is massive and open for WM, while the apple smartphone is locked down and proprietary.
Maybe looks aren't everything. Just because the iphone is thin, it doesn't have less surface area. I suspect the whole iphone craze (for that is what it is) is due to the damn accelerometer, which is a part costing pennies.
And the iphone has few hardware buttons, why ? How is that improving accessibility. You need two hands to operate it. My pda with hardware buttons works with my eyes shut. The buttons have marks to distinguish them and don't take power to exist. Apple has gone for form over function, that is why it is locked. They decide what you can do with it, and that's final. Christ you even have to activate the damn thing before you can use it. With my pda, all I did was charge it up and put in my sim card - done. I've had GPS, google maps, gmail, push email, a replaceable battery, voice activation of calls AND apps, stereo bluetooth, bluetooth networking, WiFi , 3G connection AND the ability to program it for free for 2 years now. It amuses me when people see it and ask me if it's one of those new iphone thingies. No, I reply - it's better !
I have access to the entire WM networking stack and tethering is between me and my provider, the phone does what I say, not what apple thinks is good for their business.
The more I see of apple, the more they remind me of Jack in Fight Club. You must not talk about it and they are just as delusional.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Spatial]

As for the "sex appeal"... is that what you're after in a phone? Really?

Having a gadget be good for showing off to others is definitely a selling point, as lame as it may be.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a Star-Tac killer to me, but my 5 year old PalmOS-based Treo trumps the iPhone in almost every single feature. The iPhone does not provide any new functionality, not revolutionary in any way, and there were plenty of full-screen, touch handsets out before the iPhone hit the market.

Let's forget about features and marketing for a second - there's one important thing you've forgotten that the iPhone does that *is* revolutionary, and that's its user interface. The entire iPhone is easy to use, intuitive, and accessible to even the biggest technological dullard. That's a really, really big deal. Every single other phone I've used, smartphone or otherwise, and I've used a lot, have awful user interfaces in comparison to the iPhone. Aside from marketing, that's one of the main reasons the iPhone and iPod have done so well. They're not just popular, they're actually a joy to use.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. The "revolutionary" aspect of the iPhone was simply a coating of good (but not excessive) eyecandy and a slick marketing campaign. Same goes for pretty much everything Apple does. Nothing they do is really revolutionary, but they're masters at dressing things up and marketing them as _if_ they were revolutionary.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[mr_gerbik]

I'm no fanboy, I'm more like Capt. Obvious.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Replaceable Battery, just not "user-replaceable"

4. You can use any headset that'll fit the jack

9. In store I asked about the face and the rep scratched the hell out of it, and then stabbed forcefully the face with a metal key...NO marks

You're pretty much on the mark with the rest though...

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you complain about your car not having a replaceable engine? No - it lasts the life of the car. When it wears out, you buy a new car or have a mechanic (if you're not capable) replace the engine.

Technically, you can replace your engine. And modify it extensively. It's just that most people don't really feel any need to, except for car nuts. (A moot point)

I suppose a similar argument could be made here, but I think it's rather more common to to wish to replace your cell phone batteries, or take them out (as many uni students do here in exams, to make sure the phone doesn't turn itself back on, because of an alarm or something, those cell phone detecting machines are evil)

In any case, it's not that uncommon for people to replace parts of their engines, or take it to a (generic) local mechanic. A comparitive action isn't really possible yet with the iPhone.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[nebr_snah]

Can't use non-Apple headsets?

I'm not sure that is correct. As far as I know, there are in fact quit a few non-Apple headsets for the iPhone.

What's revolutionary about the iPhone is how ridiculously easy it is to operate. A device can have every function imaginable, but that won't make a difference if the user does not easily understand how to exploit them.

You should try out an Apple product sometime and experience yourself that Apple is much more than marketing.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[mgblst]

Clearly, no one gives a shit about this stuff. But people do care about watching movies, listening to music. You can argue about this all you want, but just look at the market. You can even pretend it is about other issues like the reality distortion field, if that makes you feel better.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[Anonymous Coward]

Marketing, THAT's what I smell burning.
And... There's PR in there... and goodwill...
Damn, goodwill burning, I've read that that stuff takes years to grow.

Someone should do something about that fire.

Re:Andriod is no threat

[makomk]

Do you complain about your car not having a replaceable engine? No - it lasts the life of the car. When it wears out, you buy a new car or have a mechanic (if you're not capable) replace the engine.

Except that batteries don't last the lifetime of the iPhone; at least, not unless you have more money than sense and can afford to buy a new one as soon as your two-year contract expires. (Even then, that's twice the recommended replacement interval, and you'll notice the loss of battery life).

As if its difficult to find a dock connector cable. There are hundreds of millions of them out there and the spec/pinout is openly published. The iPod dock connector is so ubiquitous, car manufacturers are building cars with them built in. How many cars can you order with a USB connector?

Which dock connector? They're all subtly incompatible in interesting ways. Plus, there's things like the iPhone and newer iPods refusing to do video out via cables that don't contain a special proprietary lock chip, just so that Apple can make more money by forcing everyone to use approved cables.

WTF? You can use any 1/8 headset that doesn't have an oversized fat connector with the first gen iphone's recessed jack (including bose noise cancelling headphones and sennheisers). The 3G iphone has a flush jack. The first android phone doesn't even have a 1/8" headphone jack at all.

True. Of course, from what I've heard nearly all headphones don't fit.

iTunes isn't available for Linux. Neither is photoshop. Cry me a river. Next you'll bitch about it not supporting ogg.

It's not just iTunes being unavailable, it seems like they've deliberately put in effort to stop you using third-party software to sync. (On some of the other new iPods, they definitely have done this.)

Yes it has limitations. But calling it "ridiculously restrictive" is ridiculous in itself. It's sold more apps than any cell phone marketplace ever. Some develeopers are raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars PER MONTH. Yeah, the app store is so ridiculously restrictive it's going to collapse any day now...

Like who? Undoubtedly, it's profitable - just like selling small apps for Mac OS X is profitable. Of course, there's the risk that you'll put in the development time and Apple will reject your app for some silly reason, as some people have discovered the hard way.

Take your ball and go home. If you don't like Apple's rules or the design of the iPhone, don't buy an iPhone.

How very... totalitarian.

Fragile? Where did you hear that? The iPhone is by far the sturdiest phone I've ever owned, and that includes the construction oriented "rugged" phones that Nextel makes. Stop with your FUD already.

Now I know you're a Mac fanboy. No phone with a large glass screen is as rugged as (say) one of the old Nokia candybar phones, and that includes the iPhone. Better than ruggedised phones? No way.

It has a QWERTY keyboard. If a touch screen keyboard isn't "proper", refer to #8.

The camera CAN record video and there are FREE applications in that overly restrictive app store that let you record video with it. Just because the built in photo application doesn't record video, doesn't mean the functionally doesn't exist.

Congratulations! With third party software that wasn't possible when the phone was released, it's finally got functionality you'd expect in your average order-of-magnitude-cheaper cameraphone. How impressive.

Nope. You can get 8 or 16GB of space. If you need more, don't buy it.

What a very Apple attitude.

What's wrong with a capacitive touchscreen? Have you ever even used an iPhone?

Awful

It's not about Android

[PainMeds]

Android may or may not provide competition for Apple. What is providing competition for Apple, however, is the growing pool of independent developers writing jailbreak applications for the iPhone; catering to an even larger open development pool and more reasons to jailbreak your device. A year ago, 30% of the market was jailbreaking. Today, that number's got to be much higher. Open developers distributing through Cydia (the third party software repository) are able to compete with AppStore developers, because they can take advantage of otherwise restricted APIs to write better software, and can write apps that Apple deems to be otherwise a threat.

Re:It's not about Android

[mr_gerbik]

Uhmm... no developers for jailbroken software are coming close to competing with the numbers that the AppStore does. Your numbers are so skewed it is laughable. All the best software is in the App Store and a great many developers are making a pretty penny.

Not quite accurate...

[pringlis]

While I don't agree with Apple's practices in this case, the NDA notice on the email is just from one of the individuals working in App Store Review. It's also the same signature that comes out with a lot of stock apple mails (eg bug report responses) http://daringfireball.net/2008/09/app_store_rejections has a good summary of events.

I was never going to buy an iPhone anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T's signal sucks where I live so I switched to T-Mobile a couple years ago.

Thinking about upgrading my phone to a G1 -- my current contract is up for renewal in a couple months anyway. Although With G'oggle's money I wonder why I have to pay $179 to get the phone. It should be free in my opinion.

I do have an iPod Touch -- jailbroken of course. Cydia Apps seem just fine. If I can think of a clever app to write I could go either way -- Cydia or AppStore. If Apple are going to be bastards then it's an easy choice.

Why should Apple worry?

[TheJasper]

They have never been open before and it has never hurt them has it? Many great products have enforced restrictions with great success. Like Betamax for example.

Re:Why should Apple worry?

[Vinegar Joe]

Well....considering that at one point they had about 95% of the world computer market and now they have about 2.9%......what do you think? Or would you like another glass of that yummy Apple kool-aid?

Re:Why should Apple worry?

[cowscows]

Apple never had anywhere near 95% of the computer market. You've been drinking the stupid kool-aid.

Re:Why should Apple worry?

[mr_gerbik]

Neither has Linux.

Re:Why should Apple worry?

[TheJasper]

They should be glad to still be around...considering they only exist because M$ needed a living competitor to point to.

Apple will fail ultimately because of the control they wish to have. It almost killed them before and it will again.

Re:Why should Apple worry?

[Ash-Fox]

Neither has Linux.

Who claimed it did? I can only find someone claiming Mac had 95%.

Apple's leading the way

[C_Kode]

Sheep -> Slaughter

Re:Apple's leading the way

[ziggr]

[sheep slaughter];

Makes sense if you think about it

[Kentknox]

There is a chance that Apple would reject some applications purely because they were working on something similar themselves, you could possibly infer what would be in the future releases by monitoring the rejected applications.

unconscionable

[someone1234]

or how they say that?

By reading this comment...

[Rix]

You hereby agree to send me $5.

Re:By reading this comment...

[akboss]

I would have sent you the money but you failed to lidt your bank account. Once you do I will gladly send you your money.

Re:By reading this comment...

[Spatial]

I asked my bank to send 5$ to Rix on Slashdot, but they just gave me an odd look and told me to naff off. :(

Be Evil

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been an Apple fan for quite some time, especially because of the innovative features Apple products normally have. But the "politics" Apple has been showing in recent times makes be believe their new motto is "Be evil" (according to Google's "Don't be evil"). Today, where innovations don't take a long time to be taken over by competitors, there is no reason to bow to those "evil" measures Apple takes against it's customers... the "free" alternatives won't take long to show up... So finally I will abandon Apple.

Take action in advance

[m509272]

Before submitting your application, place a notice in some popular forum or wherever that you are submitting your application to the App Store named X which does Y on such and such a date. If it doesn't show up in the App Store then people will know it's been rejected.

Apple Sucks, Face It

[Anonymous Coward]

Explain to me the difference between Apple and every other evil company again?

Jesus just slapped you AGAIN. How many more times will you offer the other cheek?

Play, Use or Experience your computing hardware

[hacker]

If you want to play with your computer/hardware, use Microsoft Windows.

If you want to use your computer/hardware, use Linux.

If you want to experience your computer/hardware, use Apple OS X.

Re:Play, Use or Experience your computing hardware

[Graywolf]

In my view, you can choose one:

If you want to use your computer/hardware, use Microsoft Windows.

If you want to tinker with your computer/hardware, use Linux.

If you want to enjoy your computer/hardware, use Apple OS X.

Re:Play, Use or Experience your computing hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to play with your computer/hardware, use Microsoft Windows.

If you want to use your computer/hardware, use Linux.

If you want to experience your computer/hardware, use Apple OS X.

You're doing it wrong. Fanboys are supposed to refute the current subject at hand, not bring up irrelevant topics.

I'm a Mac

[elrous0]

I'm a PC

And I'm a Mac

I run almost all business software and games

AND I'LL SUE YOUR ASS IF YOU TELL ANYONE!

Re:I'm a Mac

[ionix5891]

Microsoft's latest Life without walls ads are onto something seeing that Apple are shooting themselves in the foot lately

Re:I'm a Mac

[Vexorian]

That's funny, I mean, it is ironic how this reminds me of "In a world without walls you don't need Gates and windows".

Screw them

[Anonymous Coward]

When are people going to see Apple for what they (read Jobs) really are and tell them(him) to shove their i(whatever) straight up where the sun don't shine.

other bias

[Tom]

Other sites report the incident differently. The main point being that it appears to be a clarification of the NDA that developers already agreed upon, and not an additional restriction.

Compared to game consoles, Apple's requirements are very tame, but you don't hear much complaints about the rejections that Nintendo regularily sends out.

What it does do, however, is make it clear (again), that the iPhone is not a general-purpose computer, but a device.

Re:other bias

[Acapulco]

Maybe you are right on the rejections by Nintendo and how no one complains about it, but, as far as I know, I've never seen news about how they are rejecting games that compete with Mario Bros, since that's one of their flagship products.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nintendo has said in the past that they reserve the right to license new games only because they don't want to have low-quality games or not-for-children ones running wildly on the console market. I'm not saying EVERY game for a Nintendo console is great, but then again, I'm not the one making the quality policies over there.

Imagine the uproar of videogamers if, say, a game developer was rejected for trying to develop a Nintendo-console game that portrayed a male character and was platform based...

Nevertheless, I concede that I have no idea if we've never heard of this because they've had NDAs since the begining of their videogames operation.

Nothing to see here, move along

[MrMickS]

The issues around the App Store and rejected applications are, largely, due to stupid developers not bothering to read the agreements that they have signed and then complaining loudly when their App gets rejected.

The developers signed up to the NDA and the terms and conditions when they joined the programme. This notice is just Apple restating what was already in the agreement.

If it wasn't for the Apple hatred that abounds within the FOSS hive mind this wouldn't be a story. There are plenty of people developing within the terms of the agreement and bringing new and innovative applications to the iPhone/iPod Touch. Why is the focus on the few that can't comprehend what they have signed up to rather than the many success stories?

Re:Nothing to see here, move along

[cowscows]

Actually, if you keep up on the Apple blogs and such, even a lot of long-time Apple fanboys are having trouble understanding Apple's play here. It's less a question of whether or not they're legally entitled to do what they're doing (it is their App store afterall), but more just a general wonder what Apple is trying to accomplish with the arbitrary nature of restrictions that they've created.

Long time and successful mac developers are wondering what the hell is going on. They see Apple rejecting well designed iPhone applications for reasons that haven't been previously disclosed, and it makes them hesitant to produce applications of their own for fear of having it rejected over some rule that they were never told about.

And looking at this from another angle, the NDA has meant that there aren't good forums or anything online for developers to share iPhone programming tricks or issues or whatever. Not to mention that you can't go buy a book about it to help you learn. That's just another wall that Apple has built that developers have to find their way over in order to make applications.

Again, Apple is probably fully within their legal rights to reject any application for any reason. But that still doesn't make it smart for them to do so. If they want to create a mobile platform, which it seems fairly obvious is a goal of theirs, then nobody is really sure how Apple's actions so far have helped. They're still selling the phones by the truckload, so maybe it doesn't matter that much to them, but taking the longer view, a lot of people who had been very excited about the iPhone are having a hard time seeing where Apple is going with this.

Re:Nothing to see here, move along

[toQDuj]

I think there is little news in success stories. The newspaper is full of failures as well, and it is cheap news to single out a single failure than to write an encompassing article about the good, which will require more research.

That said, highlighting bad things about a shiny thing can draw attention to the problems in the world. If there was one example of perfection, I would like to know.

Re:Nothing to see here, move along

[Anonymous Coward]

Afternoon Steve, a pleasure to have you here.

Is that NDA notice enforceable?

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

If Apple only says that the information provided is under NDA when you receive the rejection is that enforceable? I'm thinking it isn't because the person didn't agree to it beforehand.

I'm no lawyer, but I think they would have to put language in the submission form that says any replies may be under NDA and that when you submit your application you agree to this restriction.

3G killed the jailbreak market

[MosesJones]

The Jail-break market was a competition until they launched the 3G iPhone which could only be bought with a long term contract. What is the point of jail-breaking a phone that has to run on one network anyway? In terms of "30% was jail-breaking" do you have any numbers? From what I've seen the App Store has been hugely successful, especially in terms of $$$ which is something that the jail-break market never really competed on.

The issue here isn't about jail-break or Android its about a perception by Apple on what will get them the most marketshare, this means applications that the carriers like, applications that consumers like and enough of a market to make it a valid area for companies to invest in. Do you seriously think that they (or any other mobile vendor) is really concerned about individual developers? Of course they aren't, its about the commercial side of the business and if enough developers come along for the ride then great.

Re:3G killed the jailbreak market

[PainMeds]

Jailbreaking and unlocking are two different purposes; while Apple obsoleted unlocking, to some degree, jailbreaking is still employed by millions simply to open the device platform. The third party software community for the 3G is growing to the same size that it was with the first gen phones, and sites hosting tools like Pwnage and Cydia are reporting millions of unique visitors. The more Apple tries to control the market, the more consumers are going to jailbreak to run what they want on the phone.

I love the AppStore, but I hope they take a hit

[sjonke]

And I don't mean the enjoyable kind. The AppStore is fantastic and highly addictive, but they do need to get over this need to ensure that only non-competing apps appear and just open the damn thing up to everything. It will make them look good and it will certainly benefit us users.

I hope Google has success with Android and forces their hand. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that they've started things off right given their choice of phone for the launch. Also I do wonder: will the T-mobile allow competing music stores onto the platform? Did Amazon make an exclusive deal with them? Will Amazon be happy if they let competing stores in? If they don't will we bash Google and T-mobile like we are bashing Apple (rightly) now? I hope so.

What?

[KiwiCanuck]

Apple is more Draconian than Microsoft ever was. So, what's the problem? ~:-)

no surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as you get into bed with a mobile phone service provider, you join their corrupt world and you can expect unpleasant and inconsistent legal crap like this to start. I have a bad and ongoing experience with O2 in Germany, documented here. I sought their advice and did everything they told me when moving house, but they still sent their lawyers after me to claw extra euros out of my bank account. The subsequent correspondence would suggest that I obviously imagined the "help" that their customer "service" team provided.

There is no way I'm going to sign for a contract phone again, f*k that. Apple and Google can stick the entire mobile market where the sun doesn't shine.

Interview for iPhone developers

[MosesJones]

Interviewer: So it says here you've been developing for the iPhone for 2 years
Developer: Yup that's right

I: So what applications have you written
D: I've written applications around complex gene folding, stock prediction and a massively multi-player online game

I: Great, can I get them from the App Store
D: I can't say

I: Why not?
D: I can't say

I: Why?
D: There is an NDA covering whether I submitted them and whether they rejected them

I: Can you show me the code?
D: Err no

I: Why?
D: Because I'm not allowed to share things with other developers

I: Why?
D: That's in the NDA too

I: So in summary you say you've written some amazing applications but can't prove it and they aren't on the app store
D: Correct

I: So why should I believe you
D: Would anyone who hadn't done iPhone development have bothered to read the NDA?

I: Good point, you're hired.

Re:Interview for iPhone developers

[EvilIdler]

I'm so stealing those for a future job interview :)

"I've written some amazing apps for the iPhone, all refinements of Apple's own."

Fanboy newspeak

[0xdeadbeef]

What it does do, however, is make it clear (again), that the iPhone is not a general-purpose computer, but a device.

lolwut? You people are redefining words, now?

That gagging sound you hear is a black turtleneck chocking a human neck, forever.

Re:Fanboy newspeak

[Tom]

Maybe that's news to you, but not everything that has a CPU in it and runs an operating system is a general-purpose computer in the sense of arbitrary reprogramming.

ATM machines over here run OS/2, for example. Your washing machine probably has more computing power than your first computer had. A normal (non-smart) phone... and so on.

Re:Fanboy newspeak

[0xdeadbeef]

Maybe it's news to you, but "device" and "general-purpose computer" are not mutually exclusive terms. In the mobile industry parlance, device doesn't even mean what you want it to mean.

"Feature phone" is the term you are looking for, but of course, to call it that would emphasize how laughable your attempt is to convince people that the iPhone belongs to a different category than other smartphones.

Re:Fanboy newspeak

[Tom]

Speaking in which sense?

Technologically? No, in that sense it's more or less the same thing.

But products aren't about technology alone. Wasn't there a study just these days that a third of the iPhone customers bought it for its looks alone? Design is a major feature of products. As is the support chain.

Apple decided to keep central control of the app repository. Love it or hate it, that's how it is. As I pointed out, that's not an Apple invention, all game consoles work the same.

So in the product-as-a-whole view, yes the iPhone differs in some important details from the majority of other smartphones.

itunes small player?

[redhound1]

Not sure where you get your information, but as of Spring of 2008, iTunes is the largest retailer of music in the US. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080402-apple-passes-wal-mart-now-1-music-retailer-in-us.html The reason the platform needs to be iTunes compatible is because iTunes is the reason people buy ipods and even the iPhone. There have been many great mp3 players, but they always get crushed by Apple. Apple currently has 73% of the mp3 player market not because of the hardware,but because of the whole experience. The iTunes front end just makes it easy and easy sells. I'm interested in the Android phone, but if its like using most open source products, I'll stay with the iPhone and AT&T. I don't have the time to search for plug-ins and different software projects to make most open source projects work. And I'm sure the phone will be in "beta" for the next 10 years! You get what you pay for as they say.

Bad way to treat your customers

[Anonymous Coward]

When my customers complain about the services I provide, I ponder their complaints and think of ways of addressing them. I don't always succeed in finding workable solutions, but I do try...after all, my customers are my bread and butter.

I don't respond by making them sign contracts forcing them to stop complaining. That kind of bully-like behavior would leave me without customers in the blink of an eye. But even if it wouldn't...even if I did hold some kind of vice-grip on them...I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I had treated them so badly after accepting their money.

But then again....I am not a jerk.

Canary?

[TaoPhoenix]

What about the Canary approach?

1. "I promise under penalty of Perjury not to actively state a false status of my app. with Apple."

2.
"Today I was not declined by Apple."
"Today I was not declined by Apple."
"Today I was not declined by Apple."
"Today I was not declined by Apple."

3. ( ... Crickets ... )

You agreed to this when you got the dev kit.

[argent]

Every time a user now gets a rejection, the message: THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE IS UNDER NON-DISCLOSURE is displayed clearly in the letter.

Apple can send messages saying "the information contained in this message is under non-disclosure" all they want, but if you didn't sign anything it doesn't mean anything. You agreed to accept Apple's NDAs when you signed up for the dev kit. I've been modded down often enough for pointing out that the iPhone isn't an open system, that it won't be an open system, because Apple's been caught up in the whole paranoid cellphone worldview. Well, now you know. Don't develop for the iPhone unless you want to be treated like a contractor for Apple rather than an independent software vendor.

My contract was up and I was going to jump to AT&a

[SocietyoftheFist]

I was going to get me an iPhone, they are friggin sweet. I own a MacBook Pro. After much deliberation I decided to not pay the premium price, got a glyde and I can listen to my MP3s just fine with it over my Plantronics Bluetooth headset. I've been mulling over my decision to buy the MacBook Pro last year as well. I could have saved some money on a similarly equipped PC and dual booted Linux and Windows. I'm still thinking of selling the MacBook Pro and getting a Dell with Ubuntu installed. My Mac experiment may be nearing an end. I like the platform, I am starting to loathe the company.

Do the developers receive an acceptance letter?

[TheLevelHeadedOne]

I have't read the NDA or any details about the developer program, but I was wondering if they receive an acceptance letter. If so, can't they just say, if they have been denied, "We have not received an acceptance letter according to the developer program guidelines." Won't this get the message across?

netshare? wtf?

[anomaly256]

Wait.. you actually think the netshare ban, in countries where the telcos don't block tethering, was 'reasonable'? I sure as hell hope you're just trolling and aren't really this retarded!

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[account_deleted]

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Help the rest of us understand

[rlgoer]

Could some of the more rabid Apple fans help the rest of us understand why you tolerate being slapped around an alarmingly litigious firm? I don't mean this as a smart-ass question. I use Apple products myself (I have a Mac on my desktop at work alongside a Linux box/Windows XP workstation). Please help the rest of us understand.

Just scroll /. frontpage down a little

[Britz]

Studies Say Ideology Trumps Facts
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/25/036232
This comment was very nice: "cognitive dissonance"
http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=975171&cid=25148179
Applied to Apple it would mean that people that bought completely overpriced Apple products are now looking for justification and trying to convince other people that it was right to spend so much money.

Get your facts right

[Space cowboy]

Go to the Apple store right now, and a refurbished macbook pro is indeed $1999. Click on the checkbox to add it to your basket, and the next page has Applecare for the MBP (with or without an extra screen) for $350.

Now you might still argue that's high, but that's what I'd expect to pay in *tax* in the UK...

Simon

Re:Get your facts right

[CharlieG]

Your right - I was running on about 2 hours sleep when I posted. Still, $350 is still way high

Trusted Computing

[Britz]

I don't get why this video has only about 20.000 views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFbqSYdNK4

The IPhone has DRM. Of the worst kind. They control everything. I can remember when the /. community was up in arms about the TCPA and TPM. But with Apple this is suddenly OK? I don't get it.

And now they sue you if you happen to mention that they use their DRM to block you?

Will I be sued for this comment?

Re:Trusted Computing

[EvilIdler]

I think the Trusted Computing video was posted in higher quality on various torrent sites (including LegalTorrents). It has seen some circulation.

It's true the iPhone is locked down. Apps live in their own environment, totally unable to access files outside directly, which is a good thing for safety..but there really should have been a built-in mechanism for sending various kinds of data to a "public" storage portion on the iPhone/iPod touch. Datacase and similar let you treat the device like USB mass storage, but then you still need to access the files from within that app.

Apple may have gone slightly too far with their locking down and these latest NDA shenanigans. I'll give development a try, only for the money, but first they have to actually approve me. Been a few weeks, and not even a "we're working on it" e-mail :/
(Maybe that's a good thing, not being approved?)

Their store

[nurb432]

Their device, their toolkit. They can decide what you can and cant do.

Don't like it, move your code to a different toolkit/store/device.. There alternatives out there, use them and send a message to Jobs.

Re:Their store

[Ash-Fox]

There alternatives out there, use them and send a message to Jobs

I have sent him numerous MMS messages, but none of them are getting through!

Re:Their store

[Rob the Bold]

Their device, their toolkit. They can decide what you can and cant do.

If they wanted to keep it "their device", they shouldn't have taken anyone's money for it. Is my car really Nissan's car? Well this is Slashdot, so I think it's fair to ask: Why don't automakers try bullshit restrictions on their products like some computing device makers do? I'm pretty sure they know that guys who would "create applications" for cars -- stereos, shifter knobs, pimpin' body lighting, etc. -- aren't pussies like developers. They know if they tried it, car guys would ignore them and do what they wanted. They know if they take them to court, a lawyer would demand a jury trial. And a jury knows what a car is. If you tried to get a panel of citizens to enforce a EULA on Jetta they'd blow you off faster than you could spellcheck "jury nullification".

Re:Their store

[nurb432]

You can make anything you want for YOUR iphone, its when you try to sell it at their store that you run into Apples rules.

You make auto-parts and slap the 'compatible with nissan' label on it, you can expect to get a letter from them too. You also void warranties, potential safety violations..

They are undoubtedly counting on it

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Apple confident that Google's open platform Android won't be much of a threat?

Not only does Apple believe Android will be as much of a threat as Lunix is to OSX... they are counting on it.

Sometimes, if you are fortunate enough in your choice of enemies, your victories simply write themselves.

This is why Apple is the best (and worst)

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as their technological integration of products go, they are superior in many ways to most other products. The ownership of the HW, OS and application SW and the integration they do with them out of the box makes them very good.

But, unfortunately, they are totatally, absolutely control freaks, not only of their products, but of their users. Instead of allowing people to do what they wish with something they buy from them, they force you to do anything and everything exactly as they believe is best - regardless of whatever other good ways there are to do something.

This is why, while I like their products, I will never buy one.

Dance, Fanboy, Dance

[Xanthvar]

All right apple fanboys, lets here your response on this one.

Hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoops, hackers seem to have infiltrated all email accounts receiving Apple reject emails. I guess that's that.

The dew has definitely been shaken off the rose

[BemoanAndMoan]

I remember at a recent MAX conference Adobe insulted it's developer base in a similar way, in its vaunted Mobile Flash development push (encapsulated: you develop something, send it to us, and if by chance it passes through QC, marketing, "does-it-compete-with-our-bigger-partner's-stuff", legal and a bunch of other internal self-interest groups, we'll approve it and put it up in our store). The stench of self-interested "spec work" was heavy in air that day, my friends.

And now we have the iPhone, which adds to that absurd proposal in so many execrable ways. I work in an office with 5 die-hard apple addicts (we're all developers) and I must say the chest-beating speeches are pretty rare lately. Thanks to the iPhone everybody now sees Apple for what they are, i.e. just another big corporation maximizing profits by doing right by themselves instead of their customers.

DRM up the wazoo, vacuum-sealed OS, minimum contracts, NDA's on the dev. package (they really got a hard time on that one) and now this totalitarian control over the app store, which is decidedly measured in how advantageous any particular product is for Apple and not the consumer.

This is not your daddy's "hippy tech company" any more, kiddies.

Think Different... Think Dictatorship.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

... and you thought Apple wasn't like Microsoft.

What is Apple afraid of? Oh yeah... the truth.

What is Apple ashamed of? Oh yeah... themselves.

Keep trying to hide it Apple. Google is coming.

Re:Think Different... Think Dictatorship.

[Efialtis]

Think Different, Think of ANYTHING but an Apple product...

The term "Unconscionable" comes to mind

[JSBiff]

Ok, I'm not sure if that's entirely the right expression, but courts will often refuse to enforce clauses in contracts which are a dramatic expansion of the intended purposes of contract law.

I think in California, non-compete agreements which prevent people from working for any other employer in the same industry were struck down under this principal, and I would imagine that a clause which restricts you from even sharing with other parties that your app was rejected, and under what terms, would be in the same boat.

Non-disclosure agreements are intended to protect true secrets, like the formula or means of production for a product. The knowledge that an application was rejected, man, I can't see *how* that is really a company secret, other than Apple just wanting to silence criticism, which courts do not look favorably upon.

Now, I could potentially see the *why* of the rejection being covered by an NDA, *if and only if* the reason for rejection was a technical reason which would require the disclosure of a technical secret in order to explain. Still, anything that an app developer is doing for a platform shouldn't be a 'secret'.

Anyhow, I for one have started looking at the Android platform, and it's certainly interesting. Still feels a bit immature in terms of lacking some things, but I imagine a lot of the 'missing' stuff will be added with future releases. I'm hoping for, among other things, VOiP support when I'm on a WiFi network (that might, hopefully, come through third-party apps, but I think I saw a quote somewhere that Google has done something to try to prevent Apps from implementing VoIP, but not sure), and Ogg Vorbis & Theora support in the media player component (I've encoded much of my pre-Internet CD collection to Ogg).

Re:The term "Unconscionable" comes to mind

[torkus]

Apple just wanting to silence criticism

There, saved you some typing for next time :) Apple is just about as fierce in protecting it's image as the IOC is their copyright, disney it's characters, and mattell the loving barbie.

Microsoft is free. .

[JSBiff]

To write an Outlook Mobile for Android app and put it on the Android Market. Microsoft, likely, will not do that unless Android become *the* dominant player in the market, which it currently is far from.

In the meantime, Android *is* Microsoft compatible to the extent that you can enable IMAP or POP3, and SMTP with Exchange, and the mail client uses those IETF *standardized* protocols. I mean, really, why blame Google for implementing the *real* standards instead of Microsoft's non-standards?

Apple is confident that Android won't be a threat

[Culture20]

Is Apple confident that Google's open platform Android won't be much of a threat?

Apple is confident that Android won't be a threat; it doesn't install on iPhones because they control the Apple app store. Capiche?

Apple will eventually learn...

[EvilIntelligence]

Apple will eventually learn, the same way Microsoft has, that the freedom to innovate does not belong solely to them. If you lock out the masses, they will eventually go someplace else (hear Android calling?)

magusxxx

[magusxxx]

I didn't read all of the comments so if this has been suggested already, sorry. I want someone to start Mac Un-Update. If a person submits an idea for the iPhone it is then listed until Apple approves of it. It is then linked to the download page for one month. After that, the item is removed from Mac Un-Update's list. If Apple turns the program down, we at least have a listing of what was created and is not available to us. I wouldn't think this would be against the NDA since you are telling people about it before submitting it to Apple.

goodluckwiththat

[sarysa]

Unless the non-disclosure clause is a part of the agreement upon submission of the app, what they're doing isn't really legally binding. It's like me saying "Upon reading this Slashdot reply, you agree to give me $5000."

I look forward to the backlash.

I don't think they CAN do that...

[Efialtis]

The POINT of a NDA is that it is an AGREEMENT...was this an agreement signed by the developers PRIOR to their working with the SDK?
If not, Apple cannot simply send an NDA and expect you to abide by it...AFTER THE FACT...
That would be like Ubuntu turning around and sending everyone who has ever downloaded a copy a bill for $19.95 just because they changed their mind and figure we should now pay for it...
Just simply adding the phrase "this agreement may change at any time" does not bind anyone to A) continue to accept the agreement, and B) have unreasonable or not-agreed to clauses being forced upon the user. THAT, at least, has been proven in court.

Worse than suing him to death...

[swb]

...they'll let that fucking cat and his two little friends into your house and wreck everything...

I think apple is going to get skullfucked...

[Mysticalfruit]

Apples own need to control every aspect of the iPhone is going to be their undoing. Just by the mere fact that Android is open means its going to find its way onto a larger swath of devices.

I'm not saying the iPhone is a bad product, I just think it's going to get out competed in the market place.

What's worse is that Apple through stupid shit like restricting applications and NDA'd reject letters are going to drive people into the arms of Android.

I can't wait until people port Android onto an iPhone.

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Re:well bullshit

[algae]

You know, this argument is really annoying. If AT&T decided to delete all traffic from your personal website, would that still not be censorship? How about if one of the handful* of owners of all media in the US decided to ignore your political party?

Sufficiently large multinational corporations, for all intents and purposes, are equivalent to governments, just without all the checks and balances. Not saying Apple here, but your argument is semantic, not reasoned.

*Literally, five or six corporations own virtually every mass media outlet in the United States.

anybody ever look at the Visual Studio EULA?

[sbeckstead]

The Eula that you agree to when you begin to use Visual Studio forbids you from developing a word processor that could compete with any Office product. There are clauses in there to force you to take any prodcut off the market that MS doesn't like. You pay between $400 and $10,000 for the development system and it is still restricted. Granted there are sort of free alternatives but not for WinMobile development at least I haven't seen one yet.

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Free Use

[tobiah]

You're right that this isn't 1st amendment free speech, but it's a similar concept, and one consumers are having to deal with only recently. Corporations regularly placing strict and difficult to enforce restrictions on use of their products is a rather recent development.
    Imagine buying a horse with the EULA that you can only use Acme-approved saddles with it.
    It's a new consumer rights issue that needs to be fought out. Not because it's a right that consumers suddenly decided they need, but because it's one that was always there, and is now being taken away.

Duplicate Functionality

[tobiah]

Right, and what if Apple comes out with a program that duplicates the functionality of an existing 3rd party program?
Are they going to remove yours then?
Will they honor their own logic and withhold their app? ...

Sun?

[Wooky_linuxer]

They said they had a version of Java that could run on the iPhone, but obviously the NDA forbids anything that loads code. If I were they, I'd submit it, publish the rejection and then see what it happens.

iPhone's closedness is what makes it good

[drix]

The closedness of the iPhone platform is what makes it desirable to so many people. I think this is a really hard point for the /. crowd to understand. I perused the Android SDK yesterday the first thing that jumped out at me was the following:

Any app on the mobile device can be replaced or extended -- even core components such as the dialer or home.

IMO this is the exact opposite of what most users want. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that the average, non-technical (i.e. the majority) user would much prefer an extremely well thought-out, immutable UI to having some apps rip out the guts of the phone and replace them with something foreign, less pretty, and almost certainly more poorly designed that what the iPhone offers out of the box.

The only people really affected by these much ballyhooed rejections are the developer, his/her fans, and people who have philosophical qualms about a closed platform (and if you're reading this, you probably number among them.) The average user couldn't care less. The apps available on App store are entertaining or, at best, marginally useful, but it's mostly a profit vehicle for Apple. Certainly no killer apps have yet to emerge because let's face it, if one did, Apple would simply usurp it and add it to the next major firmware release. Does this stifle innovation? Sure. But I argue that this strategy, of leaving the bulk of innovating to in-house, professional designers and artists, enriches the user experience in ways that leaving it to bands of indie developers won't.

OK, now it really gets ridiculous.

[w4rl5ck]

I was somehow "OK" for the NDA on the devkit, but this is simply so annoying and stupid that I really don't know what to say about it.

Or, maybe, apple really fucked this one up.

Even if most people might say different, application development for MacOS is really a great experience, and all tools come for free with MacOS X - even pretty advanced stuff like distributed compiling (of course based upon distcc, so OSS again). It's just great fun, and the Core framework is really, really great.

But what they are doing with the iphone now... I don't get it. They don't expect that this is stopping bad press, do they?

Network can't support the traffic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Network can't support the traffic?

Unlock my phone. I'll go to a network that can.

KTHXBAI

With respect...

[tlambert]

With respect...

I own the atoms.

I paid for them.

They will damn well do what I tell them to do.

-- Terry

Re:With respect...

[Tom]

TFA is about restrictions on developers, not customers.

Re:well bullshit

[bluesk1d]

This is all your opinion. I never said I disagreed with this view (and I don't) but believing it simply doesn't make it so. The amendments are very specific as to the fact they are designed to protect your rights from the government. Period. That has nothing at all to do with AT&T doing whatever they want with their service to use your example. If you don't like them, you go to someone else. That is your right.

Enjoying the Kool-Aid - I hope!!!!

[BSDetector]

Hey apple boyz!!! Hey stevie syncophants!!! Hey mac nuts!!! Hey ifonies!!!

ENJOY THE KOOL-AID!!! Hope you like the flavor!!!

Is it legal to do so?

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote: Apple rubbed salt in their wounds by slapping non-disclosure agreements on application rejection notices.

I think Apple has to put a non-disclosure agreement on the application itself, not the rejection.

If it's not on the application, then in essence, I believe the non-disclosure agreement on the rejection notice isn't legal.

It would be nice if we had a slashdot/user/lawyer around.

Re: Office capability?

[Lonewolf666]

Who in their right mind would want to edit Word documents on a mobile phone?

I can see people reading and writing emails, those can be fairly short and manageable on the small screen and rudimentary keyboard. But that is about the maximum document size for non-masochists ;-)

Repressing competition

[Melugo]

"duplicate functionality" Otherwise known as competition? Surely that's going to be an easy law suit.

Apple looking more and more like a Banana

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple looking more and more like a Banana Republic.

I give up on Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had enough, I give up on Apple. After I got bored with Microsoft and how they depressed the Windows software market, I had hoped that the Apple marketplace would be better. I had no proof for this, I just hoped it was so. So I set aside my Windows machines, and bought a half dozen Apple machines including a mac pro, a macbook pro, an ipod touch, and an iphone, oh yea and there were those to G4 machines, notebook and iMac. Then I pay for a copy of Jaguar Serrver, and later Leopard Server (unlimited), hoping to have an idea for an application that would have a server, client, and handheld component.

Then I spend several hundred dollars on books about Apple programming in several languages. Now in order to produce software for the Apple, I have to invest in huge amounts of time to learn objective c and their frameworks. After I invest time and money and learn how to write the applications, have an idea, produce an application, and consider how to promote the product without millions of dollars for marketing. And to rub salt in the wound, the application would be written in a single source language for just one platform.

At the end of all this, Apple can decide not to allow my application, and if they do, I cannot talk about my application.

I give up. I know when to cut my loses. Or maybe I don't. Perhaps I should have seen the writing on the wall earlier. I would be a fool to invest more of my precious life in an attempt to earn my fortune in this sandbox. Any time they like Apple can take their ball and go home, and as a small guy, there is no chance I can withstand a fight with their lawyers.

So in the end Apple wins. I bought lots of their stuff, they got my money, and their life goes on... How sad for me, how great for them.

Apple censors... again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like it is time for Steve to leave Apple again...

Apple needs to focus on real issues

[low profile]

Apple is making a mistake here, there are real problems with Apps and the App store that they should focus on. redundant app would only make the platform more desirable, as no app is perfect for every user. Some of the real problems I see are: I can't update an app without deleting it. I get an error message for each app of app update failure every time I sync with my MBP. It makes me think seriously about jaibreaking the device.