What Normal Users Can Expect From Ubuntu 8.10

notthatwillsmith writes "With Ubuntu 8.10 due to be released in just a few days, Maximum PC pored through all the enhancements, updates, and new features that are bundled into the release of Intrepid Ibex and separated out the new features that are most exciting for Linux desktop users. Things to be excited about? With new versions of GNOME and X.Org, there's quite a bit, ranging from the context-sensitive Deskbar search to an audio and video compatible SIP client to the new Network Manager (manage wired, Wi-Fi, VPN, and cellular broadband connections in one place)."

Comments

What normal users can expect

[kidde_valind]

A brown desktop background?

Re:What normal users can expect

[LingNoi]

Brown is Ubuntu's branding. Your artsy fartsy self might not like it but there are many others that do.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Tubal-Cain]

And it encourages those that don't like it to explore the customization features.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Tubal-Cain]

From the article:

Yes.

Re:What normal users can expect

[solevita]

Indeed.

When using previous Ubuntu versions, the first thing I would do after installation was the theme to something less brown. I downloaded and installed the 8.10 beta the day it was released and it was beautiful - no need to change a thing - I loved it.

Sadly an update replaced the beta's wallpaper with, what I imagine is, the wallpaper for the final release. It looks like crap so I changed to a solid brown background.

Ubuntu are employing people to do design work now and it really shows. Yes, you get a brown desktop background, no, this isn't what Microsoft or Apple would sell you (unless you've got a Zune, I guess), but yes, it looks wonderful.

An operating system is more than the colour of the background image, of course, so I really shouldn't be labouring the point so hard, or feeding the troll; if you don't like it you could change it - don't judge the whole thing on its theme. Having said that, in 8.10 brown works well.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

If the first thing you do isn't change the desktop picture on a new install you must either be boring or dumb and don't know how to do it.

Re:What normal users can expect

[alex4u2nv]

Its either that, or the naked people! (ubuntu calendar)

Re:What normal users can expect

[mackyrae]

I don't like the 8.10 wallpaper so much, but 8.04 had a beautiful wallpaper around alpah 3. The final one wasn't quite as nice, but I still like it. Feisty and Gutsy's brown wallpapers looked like the brown silk of a lady's dress puddling at the floor. Based on that imagery, I think you can tell I liked those too :)

I like Ubuntu's warm theming. Other distros and OSes are so cold by comparison. I like red and orange as well, though, so right now I'm using the Kin Dust theme created by a member of Ubuntu's art team along with a GNOME wallpaper of a red/orange flower.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Greg_D]

One of the problems Ubuntu has from a selling standpoint is that Gnome's look, even with the Ubuntu customized settings, look like a dull hodgepodge ripoff of Windows XP and OS X Panther.

If you can't get people to use your distro because it looks like it's way past its prime, then it doesn't matter how useable it actually is. People need to see past ideology and make something that looks like what people are likely to want to use.

In other words, brown is bad in this instance.

Re:What normal users can expect

[psychodelicacy]

I think it's more likely to be viewed as the color of the earth, sand, wood, that kind of natural stuff. But if you want to think about gay sex instead, don't let me spoil your fun...

Re:What normal users can expect

[solevita]

One of the problems Ubuntu has from a selling standpoint is that Gnome's look, even with the Ubuntu customized settings, look like a dull hodgepodge ripoff of Windows XP and OS X Panther.

If you can't get people to use your distro because it looks like it's way past its prime, then it doesn't matter how useable it actually is. People need to see past ideology and make something that looks like what people are likely to want to use.

In other words, brown is bad in this instance.

Unfortunately I don't think you've really got the gist of this thread, nor used the software in question. The OP was talking about the colour of the desktop wallpaper - let's not bring ideology into this. Also I don't agree with you when you say that Ubuntu looks "look like a dull hodgepodge ripoff of Windows XP and OS X Panther."

Yes, previous brown Ubuntus looked bad, that was the starting point of my original post, but in this instance brown Ubuntu looks good.

And that's ignoring the fact that I've shown 8.10 to a number of people, both highly technical and those who find double clicking hard, all of whom seemed to be impressed by the default look of the software. To repeat myself then:

In other words, brown is good in this instance.

Re:What normal users can expect

[lysergic.acid]

yes, changing your desktop wallpaper is a sure sign of intelligence and creativity. i approve of the logic of your statement.

i mean, changing your desktop from its default background is much more important than configuring your firewall, re-installing device drivers/your personal applications, restoring backed up files & documents, or setting up your network connection.

and nothing says "i'm a tech savvy hipster" like changing your desktop background to one of the throwback stock wallpapers that came with your OS--like a close-up shot up of wet leaves of grass/a frog/a butterfly, wind-blown sand dunes, tranquil autumn leaves, or any of the other kitsch backgrounds that expresses your personality--after all, what better way to show your sense of individuality than by personalizing your computer with a determined set of wallpapers, user avatars, and desktop icons?

so are you the skateboarder, guitar, soccer ball, or the chess pieces?

Re:What normal users can expect

[ShieldW0lf]

That's why you immediately install Ubuntu Studio right after installing the base distro. Then it doesn't look so dorky, and you've got all your multimedia needs covered.

sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install ubuntustudio-desktop ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-audio-plugins ubuntustudio-graphics ubuntustudio-video linux-rt

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

holy crap blond girl is hot!

Re:What normal users can expect

[d3ac0n]

Um...

Not to try and troll or anything, but while Ubuntu Studio is cool and all, particularly if you are doing sound mixing, wouldn't it be easier to just install Compiz Fusion and then pick from DOZENS of cool skins?

I guess it's just a matter of what you want/need your machine for.

(Although Ubuntu Studio DOES look pretty)

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought it was ironic that Ubuntu matched (and still matches) the Zune better than Windows ever did.

Re:What normal users can expect

[bfields]

Weird. No accounting for taste, I guess; I like the current ibex-cave-painting wallpaper, and found the temporary stuff at the beginning of the beta a little dull.

And 8.04's heron wallpaper was an amazing piece of work.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on mate It's Karate Guy or bust!

Re:What normal users can expect

[holloway]

And it encourages those that don't like it to explore the customization features

I use babelfish to auto-translate my documentation to French to encourage people who don't like it to submit patches. Ubuntu is simply applying the same principle of ugly defaults to the desktop, brilliant!

Re:What normal users can expect

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So, it seems like you are saying a lot about the brown, one might even say you are making noise about it, perhaps a brown noise?

Re:What normal users can expect

[ChameleonDave]

What is it with these morons complaining about default colours? The unspoken premise of all their whinges is that the chosen hues are bad, and that if only a different (and obviously superior) colour had been chosen, then there would be no complaints.

What these idiots don't realise is that if it were XP-blue instead of earthy African reds and browns, then a million other idiots would be making exactly the same complaint in reverse.

Fools, please try to understand: a strange quirk of human beings is that we each have a favourite colour. This means that you will never be able to design a colour scheme that nobody dislikes. Your whining is therefore utterly pointless. It's redundant before it even leaves your mouth. I have three machines: they run Ubuntu Hardy, Kubuntu Intrepid beta, and Xubuntu Hardy. They are red-brown, cyan-black, and white-cerulean, respectively. And you know what? They are all perfectly fine. No, they do not "make me hurl with those turd colours"; no, they do not "give me a headache". They're just fucking colours. If the defaults are not in line with your personal inclinations, then learn how to click on the Preferences menu. Fuck.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer this one.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously though .. That brown shit always turns me off.

its fucking UGLY.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

My first (drunk) response was "Haha!, Brown, yea .. it'll be brown."

Re:What normal users can expect

[dcmorton]

Well some people think it looks like a skull: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/289343

Re:What normal users can expect

[Risen888]

I do like it, and I think it's great branding. It's a color scheme absolutely unlike any other desktop OS. You know when you're sitting down at an Ubuntu machine, and I think that was the point.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Risen888]

I'm a user. I like it.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

I get the gist of the thread, but part of a discussion is to add more information to it. And the brown theme and the outdated look of the GUI make Ubuntu look like CRAP. Go ahead, go throw XP and Vista and OS X and Ubuntu next to each other and see which computer people use first. It won't be Ubuntu. You have to go all the way back to Windows NT to find something that looks as bad comparatively, and NT's menus were STILL easier to read.

The visual style of this distro is severely outdated. Part of it is Ubuntu's fault. Part of it is the Gnome Foundation's. Adding Compiz and Beryl and whatever else don't fix this either. They need to spend less time focusing on whiz-bang shit nobody uses, and more on what people use the most.

And you showed Ubuntu 8.10 to highly technical people? So fucking what? We aren't talking about the technical sophistication of the distro. Highly technical people can see past the obvious visual flaws to discover the technical merits. Average people will never even give it a chance because it looks like Shuttleworth bent over and took a shit on their computer screen.

When you want average people to see your substance, style MATTERS.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Provocateur]

I'm going to shoot the next guy who hates brown http://shedied.deviantart.com/art/Quit-messin-with-the-shirt-101719893

Put that on your desktop!

Re:What normal users can expect

[Provocateur]

If you don't like brown, then change it to the color of coffee, or a hot cup o cocoa.

Oh wait those are still brown...

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just install the theme/etc for ubuntu studio?
Like all officially recognized Ubuntu flavors, all the packages are in the repos.

ubuntustudio-look is a metapackage (in universe) that should bring in all of the theme stuff.

Re:What normal users can expect

[EvilIdler]

I don't use Gnome - I get a brighter, more colourful theme by default with KDE3. KDE4, though, is dark, smoky and Vista-like.

Re:What normal users can expect

[GFree678]

Your colorful rant perfectly shows how you don't know a thing about marketing, or to be more specific, "first impressions last".

But don't worry, it's a reason geeks aren't exactly the best business types, and you're in good company.

Re:What normal users can expect

[kv9]

that really looks like shit. what's the codename for this release, Barfy Shitstain?

Re:What normal users can expect

[kv9]

why dont you go blog about it

Re:What normal users can expect

[ChameleonDave]

Your colorful rant perfectly shows how you don't know a thing about marketing, or to be more specific, "first impressions last".

But don't worry, it's a reason geeks aren't exactly the best business types, and you're in good company.

/me sighs

I did not imply for a moment that one should not try to make a product attractive, or that putting thought into a colour scheme was not an important part of making a product attractive.

It's just that, no matter what you do, there will always be someone who doesn't like it. Individual opinions about colours are therefore worthless anecdotal evidence. Only surveys of users/customers can give a clear picture of which schemes have a better chance of appealing to a larger number of people. I haven't seen any specific survey about desktop colour schemes, but it seems to me that the pre-eminence of Ubuntu in the world of gratis operating systems indicates that the chosen earthy colour scheme is one that people feel matches Ubuntu's African roots (and pretentions). And the minority who dislike it can change it easily.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Knuckles]

It's not been brown since, uh, 3 years. And I never got what is wrong with brown, anyway. Lots of stuff is brown. Tree trunks, anyone?

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh. I'm the chess piece. You got me. =(

Re:What normal users can expect

[zerojoker]

well then make it possible for people to chose their color-scheme. Which is actually possible to some degree in Windows XP. On the other hand why is the color of cars sold not evenly distributed? It tends to bias to a certain color? Why do people say that the Zune looks butt-ugly and the iPhone looks sleek and elegant? But then again, if you default to such a very strange default color-scheme, then make it changeable easily. However it IS NOT easily changeable in Ubuntu. Sure, you can switch from Human to Clearlooks easily. But what about gdm? What about usplash? And even if you know how to change that, it is not easy to find nice replaceables! Just take a look at gnome-look and try to find something nice "complete" theme, with fitting usplash, gdm and theme. You really have to search. Why don't we hear complaints about MacOS X? If you stick to a theme like Ubuntu which polarizes so much, then make it easy to switch (and least the color scheme) and add three to five easy-accessible alternatives. Like some white/blue-ish thing, black/green or something.

Re:What normal users can expect

[thetoadwarrior]

Don't get your hopes up because unfortunately they won't be naming it after your mom.

Re:What normal users can expect

[thetoadwarrior]

Shame it's just an image and not a screencap from a video where they all have massive liquid shits while in that position.

I'd pay good money for that.

Re:What normal users can expect

[ChameleonDave]

Well, this is what I did to improve the colour scheme on Ubuntu (to black and cyan):

sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

If you love GNOME, then install something like Linux Mint. It's based on Ubuntu, but themed totally differently from top to bottom. You'll have to like green.

I don't think that GDM and Usplash are that hard to customise.

Re:What normal users can expect

[mcvos]

In most cultures, brown is associated with shit, scat, gay sex, etc.

Really? I never had any particular color association with gay sex. But perhaps that's because I'm not so involved in that sort of thing.

Re:What normal users can expect

[kv9]

another dream crushed. now I'm really depressed.

Re:What normal users can expect

[mcvos]

On the other hand why is the color of cars sold not evenly distributed? It tends to bias to a certain color?

And why does that color have to be silver grey?

Re:What normal users can expect

[Eighty7]

Brown is Ubuntu's branding. Your artsy fartsy self might not like it but there are many others that do.

Are those the same 3 guys who liked the brown zune?

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want your teletubby-land background and the shitty green taskbar back? Great taste!

Re:What normal users can expect

[Kirth Gersen]

ChameleonDave:

If the defaults are not in line with your personal inclinations, then learn how to click on the Preferences menu.

I don't know about Ubuntu 8.10, but in 8.04 this only leads to changing the desktop background and window styles. I indeed changed those immediately, but was still bothered by the earth tones at the login stage before the main desktop loads. You can set the colors at login via System - Administration - Login window. Much more harmonious.

Btw, I find it impossible to figure out in advance whether a particular setting is in Administration or Preferences. It looks like Admin covers setups for all users and Preferences covers setups for the current user, but if you're hunting for a particular setup you probably don't know which kind it is in advance and usually have to check both lists. For instance, you can't set the login sounds by System - Admin - Login, you do it by System - Preferences - Sounds.

Re:What normal users can expect

[paniq]

in XP, i always took the frog. as a background image, i usually prefer a purple CGI image of supposedly magic mushrooms, or a profile of albert hofmann, with a burger king crown. actually i made up the last one, but i keep skimming through gnome-looks.org. maybe i'm lucky one day.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you, you fucking fuck!

Re:What normal users can expect

[AmonTheMetalhead]

What the hell are you smoking? If there's anything close to windows look it's KDE, and OSX Panther? What, pry tell, looks OSx like in GNOME? The top menu? You do realise top menu's have existed for far longer then OSX right? If you choose an OS because it looks 'pretty' you deserve to suffer through Vista.

Re:What normal users can expect

[wjbite]

The brown colors that are use by Ubuntu are the national colors of South Africa. Since that is where Mark Shuttleworth is from, I think that is cool.

Re:What normal users can expect

[DiegoBravo]

>>> to the new Network Manager..

And hope this time let you set a really fixed ip address.

Re:What normal users can expect

[StormReaver]

"Its either that, or the naked people!"

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Hognoxious]

The brown colors that are use by Ubuntu are the national colors of South Africa.

Brown is one of the few colours that doesn't appear on the South African flag. Its sport teams tend to go for green and yellow.

Perhaps you were thinking what colour its citizens might be if you averaged them all out? Or if the flag were to suffer some kind of laundry accident?

Sir, you are full of something that certainly is brown. I doubt you can even point to SA on a map.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

Fools, please try to understand: a strange quirk of human beings is that we each have a favourite colour.
 
...yeah but shit brown rarely makes it to the top of anyone's list.

Re:What normal users can expect

[wjbite]

Okay, I stand corrected - you do live up to your user name, eh :) "Sir, you are full of something that certainly is brown." Indeed, aren't we all? "I doubt you can even point to SA on a map." I was in SA for 10 weeks a few years back and seemed to remember, incorrectly, about brown. Maybe it was at the Univ. I was visiting.

Re:What normal users can expect

[ShieldW0lf]

that really looks like shit. what's the codename for this release, Barfy Shitstain?

First I laughed. Then I looked at the screenshot. Then I cried. Because, it was all true...

Re:What normal users can expect

[ShieldW0lf]

I don't know about Ubuntu 8.10, but in 8.04 this only leads to changing the desktop background and window styles. I indeed changed those immediately, but was still bothered by the earth tones at the login stage before the main desktop loads.

Your problem isn't technical. It's psychiatric. Go see a shrink about that obsessive disorder, and then everything will seem better.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Anonymous Coward]

The first thing I do, BEFORE installation, is to download the Kubuntu .iso. I just can't get along with gnome, although I do install a lot of the backend. I like gedit and certain other gnome apps better than their KDE counterparts.

This article gave some lip service to it, but I wish people would stop writing "Ubuntu" reviews that just describe the same gnome GUI that can be installed into any other distro. They rarely mention any features unique to the OS that make it different. It's like these article were written by a Windows user who doesn't realize that the GUI is not the OS.

Roblimo did the same damn thing when he "reviewed" OpenSuSe. He spent the entire time describing KDE!

Re:What normal users can expect

[lysergic.acid]

heh, i actually used to those blue glowing mushrooms as my wallpaper throughout college. i like the Albert Hofmann idea though.

Re:What normal users can expect

[NateTech]

I think it's awesome. It's so fscking ugly it helps sell more Macs. :-)

Re:What normal users can expect

[Laurence0]

Things are in preferences if they just affect the currently logged in account. They're in admin if they affect the system or all users.

I'm not sure that's 100% accurate, but it's a rough approximation!

Re:What normal users can expect

[jabithew]

This means that you will never be able to design a colour scheme that nobody dislikes.

OS 10.5.x? /me runs and hides.

Re:What normal users can expect

[jabithew]

I actually had a neighbour call me around to change her XP icon to something other than the karate guy because, "it's too violent. I want something more peaceful."

I shit you not.

Re:What normal users can expect

[howlingmadhowie]

i have never used vista, but every time i see it i'm reminded of kubuntu from about 3 years ago. a current ubuntu desktop really does look a lot more modern than either os x or (especially) vista. the fonts are nicer, the icons are nicer, the buttons are nicer etc. etc.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Macthorpe]

Poo comes in various shades of brown.

Um, I would imagine...

Re:What normal users can expect

[dmizer]

Obligatory car analogy:

If someone gave you a free car, you would complain about the color ... wouldn't you?

Re:What normal users can expect

[lazybeam]

Especially if they give you the skills and tools to change it. And the parts to supercharge it, and add a "fully sik" stereo, etc!

Re:What normal users can expect

[paniq]

How am I not surprised? ;)

Actually, my current wallpaper at work shows the Python logo rotated and colored in such a way that it reminds of a Swastika banner. For advertising Python at the workplace.

I guess I suck at propaganda.

Re:What normal users can expect

[Hognoxious]

I was perhaps a bit harsh, I just assumed you were an American since people who make uninformed statements about other countries usually are.

"Sir, you are full of something that certainly is brown." Indeed, aren't we all?

Not if we've been eating spinach. Or drinking Hoogaarden. Or both.

Re:What normal users can expect

[wjbite]

Well.....I am an American but haven't been proud of it for the last seven years. Maybe this next election will fix that, among other things. I'm afraid we DO deserve the bad rep we have - I try not to :) I know what spinach is but don't know "Hoogaarden". I suppose I will be ashamed that I don't since I spent more than a year in Nederlands.

Re:What normal users can expect

[holloway]

Obligatory car analogy: still making leopard stripe car interiors in 2008.

(look, I like Ubuntu and it's just a matter of taste. Don't take it to heart)

Re:What normal users can expect

[tomatensaft]

It's a matter of taste. I, for one, like the Ubuntu's default theme. :)

Re:What normal users can expect

[tomatensaft]

Man, I totally agree.

Re:What normal users can expect

[AigariusDebian]

I wish there was an option to have that with the monthly updates no less.

Re:What normal users can expect

[alex4u2nv]

sudo aptitude install ubuntu calendar

Newbie Question

[electrictroy]

Is Ubuntu the easiest version of Linux to set up? I like the ease of just clicking "install" and everything automagically takes care of itself. (Like my Windows XP disc.)

Re:Newbie Question

[cpicon92]

It's pretty much as close as you'll get to "just working" (tm apple) in the Linux world.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

It asks for your keyboard type, timezone, login name, password, and whether you want to wipe your harddrive or install alongside windows.

I guess that's too hard for you.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Ubuntu the easiest version of Linux to set up?

No. Try Mandriva and PCLOS for the easiest - they've still got the jump on Ubuntu for "it just works" with no fiddling. And their Control Center feature is better.

Otherwise I prefer and use Ubuntu. Been using it for three years on three boxes.

Ubuntu /does/ seem to work without fiddling for some people, and no doubt a few will flame here that I'm some sort of Microsoft Shill or whatever, but that's my experience. When I install Mandriva or PCLOS, those just work from GO, and I really wish Ubuntu would have a good look at what they're doing different.

Haven't installed Ibex yet. I was one of the approx 25% of beta testers who had a wretched time, so filled out the bug reports and am now going to wait a month or two past release before trying the final.

Re:Newbie Question

[nine-times]

What version of Windows XP are you using? Any time I've installed XP from a normal disk, it requires at least agreeing to some license agreement, partitioning, formating, configuring your network to some degree, choosing username, clicking "Next" a bunch of times, some other random stupid things I'm preobably not remembering, and then installing several drivers. I'd love a copy of XP that installed as easily as hitting the "install" button.

Anyway, yeah, Ubuntu is about as easy as installing Windows-- potentially easier because it's likely that it will recognize more of your hardware without installing drivers. Also, you can boot up the install CD as a LiveCD and try using the OS before you install.

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

You never just "click install" on windows xp..

1) Pop in disk
2) First you have to setup a partition to install windows.. lets assume it's an empty disk so you'd press c (create partition) and number the number of disk space for that partition then enter, then you press enter again to install on that partition.
3) Windows installs some files then reboots into a install setup. On this page you setup your computers name, organisation, location and language setup, keyboard setup, etc.
4) Windows installs more files
5) You get to the desktop at which point you have to put in your Microsoft Office disk
6) Follow the installer to get Microsoft office installed
7) Run windows update to install important security updates for Microsoft Office and Microsoft Windows xp

To say that is a one click install is horribly misleading.

Ubuntu on the other hand contains much less steps

1) Pop in disk
2) Wait for desktop to appear and click on the install icon and choose your keyboard, location, username and password
3) If it's an empty disk it'll ask if you want to use the whole disk. No ugly dos based program.
4) Wait for installer to finish then restart taking out the disk.

Re:Newbie Question

[Lennie]

I think he's probably talking about a restore cd or similair.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Cowpat]

Nope. Ubuntu is a pita to get working the way you want - oh yes, if you just want it working out of the box as the ubuntu developers want it working out of the box it's ok (unless you want some custom partitions, in which case it's a bit hairy), but to make it do what YOU want is damn-near impossible.

I was trying to set up a mythtv box a few weeks ago with mythbuntu, and I could get mythbuntu installed, but could I get control over any of the rest of the system to make customisations? Could I heck - I also couldn't persuade mythTV to actually work - which is impressive for a distro which is supposed to have it all working.

Eventually I wiped it and started again with suse11.0 and slapped the myth packages on top of it and now it works. Yast makes it an absolute doddle to add software and modify system settings - no disro should be allowed into the home without it.

Re:Newbie Question

[Tubal-Cain]

I'd love a copy of XP that installed as easily as hitting the "install" button.

nLite

You can slipstream in service packs and hotfixes, set all those little options you always change, chose not to install certain components (even Luna), set your CD-key...

Re:Newbie Question

[guyminuslife]

I have to say, installation is one of the areas where Ubuntu really is easier than XP. When I had to reinstall XP on a formatted hard drive, I spent about an hour having to hunt down all the drivers it didn't include.

That being said, try the Ubuntu LiveCD before you install.

Re:Newbie Question

[marco.antonio.costa]

In my experience it's more JustWorkish than Windows. My ancient Bt878whatever capture card and Chinese junk Bluetooth adapter were both a pain to set on Windows. On Ubuntu I just get a recognized capture device and a nice little BT icon on the tray. :-)

Haven't looked back since. Kudos to Shuttleworth and employees.

Re:Newbie Question

[ricegf]

It's actually easier than Windows, IMHO. It boots into Ubuntu without asking a single question, so you can decide if you like it. If you do, double-click "Install" on the desktop, answer the same type of questions as you would on Windows, and while it loads onto the hard drive, you can continue using it.

Or, if you prefer, stick the disk into a computer running Windows, click "Install", and it will install as if it were a Windows application. After installation, when you reboot, you get the usual grub menu to select either Ubuntu or Windows. If you later decide you don't like it, boot Windows and select Ubuntu and Uninstall from Add / Remove Programs, and it uninstalls.

I really can't imagine anything easier. Well, other than buying it pre-installed. :-)

Re:Newbie Question

[bonch]

Posts like yours are always fun because they're always wildly biased. First, you overstate the Windows partition step while over-simplifying the Ubuntu partition step. Second, I love how you include Microsoft Office in the Windows steps just to pad the list, as if most Windows PCs and their factory reinstall discs don't already include some form of Office. You also pad the list with things like "Windows installs more files," as if Ubuntu doesn't also, you know, install files. You even throw in Windows Update, as if Ubuntu doesn't pop up a red triangle on the Gnome menu telling you there are updates to download.

All in all, a biased post that will probably hit +5 instantly.

Re:Newbie Question

[kesuki]

"Any time I've installed XP from a normal disk, it requires at least agreeing to some license agreement, partitioning, formating, configuring your network to some degree, choosing username, clicking "Next" a bunch of times, some other random stupid things I'm preobably not remembering"

any big name OEM install includes about exactly picking your username, waiting while installs tons of garbage, (trial ware everything, stupid OEM software, those drivers you mentioned, etc) and then removing all the crappy software that they preloaded because they got paid $1 to install it, default.

some people don't remove the crappy software, and i don't know how many times i've seen this software not get patched, and wind up letting some hacker get into their system, because they had unpatched software they didn't even know they were running.

the nice thing about ubuntu/kubuntu is that everything updates, if you run the updater. the down side is i've had ubuntu break working systems in updates. ah well.

Re:Newbie Question

[BraulioBezerra]

4) Wait for installer to finish then restart taking out the disk.

And meanwhile you can access the Internet (in most cases) or play some games.

Re:Newbie Question

[jonaskoelker]

You never just "click install" on windows xp..
1) Pop in disk
2) First you have to [...]

Almost correct.

1-5) as you said.
6) Look at the popup that says lsass.exe will shut down your box in 30 seconds
7) Pull the box off the network
8-12) Do step 1-5 again
13) Download antivirus without connection to the network. Pixies and leprechauns are helpful here.
14) Install the antivirus
15-16) step 6-7

Based on a true story. I can't tell you how much I hated windows when I saw the sasser popup.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I can also customise an Ubuntu disk to include codecs, skype, nvidia or ati drivers, etc as well.

It doesn't make for a good comparison and only windows admins know how to slipstream while the rest of the us use the normal xp disk.

Re:Newbie Question

[mackyrae]

Uh, Windows install disks don't include Office. He's right on that.

And Ubuntu's version of the partitioner is that it gives a "use whole disk" option and a "drag the slider to show how much of the disk goes to each OS" thing. There is a more advanced partitioner available, but the user doesn't have to see it.

Re:Newbie Question

[dominious]

it supposed to be, but honestly don't expect to have everything running out of the box. A friend of mine installed it and now she asks why she can't connect wireless, why the graphics card is so slow, how to install flash, why the sound doesnt work and so on..well guess what? It will take the whole weekend to install the damn wireless drivers, the graphics accelerators etc to set the whole thing up..and I can see my self in a few days saying to her: "well the wireless works now but is not fully functional because "this" and "that" and all that kind of shit..but then again once you got everything installed it's the best operating system!" The moral of the story: If the drivers are not there by default (probably because it's a new laptop) then you are screwed!

Re:Newbie Question

[Tubal-Cain]

Ubuntu doesn't need to be infinitely customizable. We have Gentoo for that. Anyways, it's not like you can't put together your own distro if you care enough.

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

you overstate the Windows partition step while over-simplifying the Ubuntu partition step.

How so? What I said is exactly that. On an unformatted disk you get three options, 1- use the whole disk, 2- custom partiton, and.. wait. there's only two.

I can't figure out what I mean by me over simplifying it because that's what it is, simple.

Since you didn't include an example of what you mean (no need to backup your claims, right) i'll just have to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

Second, I love how you include Microsoft Office in the Windows steps just to pad the list

I did that because Ubuntu comes with Office software already on the disk.

You do realise that people use office software don't you?

as if most Windows PCs and their factory reinstall discs don't already include some form of Office

This is nonsense, how can you do a fair comparrison of installing the operating system on a custom pc and come up with "the vendor disk".

It's totally irrelevant anyway because it's still not a click install even with the vendor disk. Which was my whole point in the first place.

You even throw in Windows Update, as if Ubuntu doesn't pop up a red triangle on the Gnome menu telling you there are updates to download.

Yes because it would be irresponsible not to download updates for Windows. It's so important that your box can get owned in less then 4 minutes.

Re:Newbie Question

[binarylarry]

Which he'll get, if he buys something like an Ubuntu computer from Dell:

http://www.dell.com/ubuntu

I bought an Ubuntu laptop from Dell and I'm very pleased.

You get support, a restore disk, "legal" DVD playback support and some very nice equipment.

Re:Newbie Question

[jimdread]

That sounds interesting. Does it run off a live CD? Or do you have to install Windows first, then install nlite, then make the super-install-disk, then do the easy Windows install? Because if you have to install Windows and do a whole bunch of other stuff before you can do a quick and easy Windows install, why not stick with your first Windows install?

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I mean stuff like getting at the firewall settings so I could be sure that port 22 was open, or getting at the bootloader settings - there's a Yast module for those in suse, in ubuntu you seem to be forced to modify obscure config files - and because there's no sensible way of installing software you can't actually get a useable text editor to edit them with (nor is there an obvious way to start one of the GUI text editors as root).

Re:Newbie Question

[cheater512]

Isnt that even more work than just clicking Install?

Re:Newbie Question

[socsoc]

What part of installing Windows XP requires my Microsoft Office disc? I installed XP this morning on this box and am pretty sure it wasn't required. I did have do download sp2 and sp3, but that's because my retail disc is old.

Ubuntu also has a software update that you'd want to run as well after installation.

Re:Newbie Question

[prestomation]

Yes, but if you're in the habit of reinstalling XP more then a couple times a year between machines, it is worth it. Especially the ability to include drivers so you don't have to do so much hunting for drivers every time.

Re:Newbie Question

[wakingrufus]

decent point to make, however, you should know that Windows never comes with Office if you are installing it from disk.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

First, you overstate the Windows partition step while over-simplifying the Ubuntu partition step.

Over-simplifying what? Have you ever used Ubuntu in your life?

Just to make sure we're on the same page here look at 2:08 on this video.

Are you seriously saying that a slide bar of how much space on the disk you want to use is more difficult then window xp's dos based shit where you have to do math in your head to get the right number of gigabytes you want to give it?

Re:Newbie Question

[daoine_sidhe]

He'll hit +5 because he's right. I install Windows XP every day, multiple times per day, on every piece of hardware you can imagine. As a matter of fact, what he described as the windows setup (which you claim is overstated) actually left out a few steps. Starting at what he should have listed as step six, you still have to install device drivers (this requires multiple reboots as you cover all hardware), install AV software, product activation (may require a telephone call if you've re-installed too many times, or changed any hardware), windows updates (more reboots)...

He was modded up because he was right. The entire Ubuntu installation, configuration, and applying all updates takes less then 1/2 hr (no, I'm not exaggerating, try it) and is finished while Windows XP is still formatting the disk.

Re:Newbie Question

[Vu1turEMaN]

You install nLite in windows. You create your disk with SP3 and every other thing you'll ever need integrated into it, then you remove what you don't need with it (usually about 200MB of useless junk). A normal SP2 Microsoft disk is about 580MB I think, whereas my SP3 slipstreamed in with nLite + my drivers is only about 250mb after massive compression. Install takes about...ehh...5 minutes, including the reboot.

Then you use the same disk over and over and over again :)

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I do just click install. I used nlite to make a disc with all the updates, drivers and setup information I needed. IIRC the only thing I had to do manually while installing was select the proper partition.

Re:Newbie Question

[jonaskoelker]

Yes because it would be irresponsible not to download updates for Windows. It's so important that your box can get owned in less then 4 minutes

No, no, no. You have to use anecdotal evidence! http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1007971&cid=25512997.

I'm of course completely impartial here ;)

Re:Newbie Question

[couchslug]

"Because if you have to install Windows and do a whole bunch of other stuff before you can do a quick and easy Windows install, why not stick with your first Windows install? "

Because Windows degrades over time, and a custom install is an easy method to prepare for the inevitable reinstall in a way that will reflect acquired user preferences and install Windows updates without being connected to the internet. A custom slipstreamed install disc can be booted and left pretty much to itself, then followed by a DVD of updates made with the Heise utility. Follow that with a custom applications disc and reinstalls are a breeze.

ttp://www.heise-online.co.uk/security/Do-it-yourself-Service-Pack--/features/80682

Re:Newbie Question

[Ian Alexander]

how you include Microsoft Office in the Windows steps just to pad the list, as if most Windows PCs and their factory reinstall discs don't already include some form of Office.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. An office suite comes stock with Ubuntu. If you get Ubuntu you get an office suite because that's part of Ubuntu. If you get a stock Windows disk straight from MS you need to go get an office suite on your own. If you wanted to compare OEM install disks I'd call it a fair comparison.

Re:Newbie Question

[lilomar]

You know that System Idle Process isn't installing anything, right? it's just a NOOP running constantly when there isn't another process in your CPU.

Re:Newbie Question

[cheater512]

Or just use a Linux CD which is effectively the same thing without any mucking around.

Also if you use Linux then you wont be reinstalling your computer very often in the first place.
Typed on a 5 year old Gentoo install. :)

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what doesn't work for me? Dual monitors. Every time I try to use dual monitors with Ubuntu it gets all confused and ends up giving me two copies of a 640x480 desktop or some crap like that. I've never had it work without writing my own xorg.conf which makes all the video control panel stuff break.

Why can't I just have what I have in Windows - A properly working Xinerama type desktop (not Twinview)? I don't want all my dialogs centered on the seam in the middle and I don't want to maximize across both monitors. Has any progress been made in this area?

Re:Newbie Question

[JoeCommodore]

I's a little bit more complex:

You have to think about the partitioner if you wish to use two OSs on a drive or span multiple drives, or encrypt the entire OS, then again it installs comparatively: the OS, an office suite, photoshop, internet and security in one fail swoop (and/or a very capable file/web server). Then using the internet you also have about 30,000 more programs to very conveniently just download and install from one easy to navigate menu menu.

Almost kind of like XP -just without all the security features (Please enter activation key here, and what sort of AV program do you really need to purchase next.) and lacking added value and innovation (MS office not included and you may need newer version of program X for this OS).

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you invest in some imaging software for a hard disk instead of installing the OS each time?

Re:Newbie Question

[amirulbahr]

What are you doing letting Windows format a disk?? You should look into creating a few generic images that should cover most of your hardware and brands. You'll save yourself a lot of time and your employer a lot of money.

Re:Newbie Question

[Mishotaki]

you overstate the Windows partition step while over-simplifying the Ubuntu partition step.

How so? What I said is exactly that. On an unformatted disk you get three options, 1- use the whole disk, 2- custom partiton, and.. wait. there's only two.

I can't figure out what I mean by me over simplifying it because that's what it is, simple.

Since you didn't include an example of what you mean (no need to backup your claims, right) i'll just have to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

But then, if you're using it on an already formatted Windows PC and you want to keep one of the drives with the windows and have Ubuntu on the other hard drive, make sure that you don't have similar hard drives from the same manufacturer, cause you'll have a hell of a time finding out wich one is all your data and wich one is empty...

I personally had to experience that... two 120gigs Western Digital drives in my computer... let's just say that when the only thing that differenciate them is the serial number, you have no idea what to do... There is no way in hell i would have risked wiping out all my stuff just because i would have guessed wich one was the right one... so it took me an hour messing around to find that the one that was described as CDB was the one i wanted to format, and then i had to reinstall everything again after it wasn't recognised as a boot partition because it was the disk in "slave"

My personal experience as a Windows user installing Ubuntu for his first time was extremely stressful... not knowing for sure if i was gonna wipe all my data or not...

Re:Newbie Question

[Draek]

13) Download antivirus without connection to the network. Pixies and leprechauns are helpful here.

Which is why you should always install XP with at least one of the following:

a) Behind a firewall (may not be completely safe, though).
b) With a laptop besides you.
c) With an Ubuntu LiveCD.

Option c) is specially funny though, all things considered, but it's the one I usually recommend. In fact, many of my friends' PCs used to have a relatively small FAT32 partition for LinuxWindows file exchange during install/troubleshooting, before Linux got reliable NTFS support.

Re:Newbie Question

[Falstius]

As a Linux Zealot with Mod points, I'd love to mod your exaggerations down. But, I use dual monitors and it never works as well as it should. On my laptop, I can only clone screens. On my desktop it works well except that compiz gets confused with dual monitors (so I turn it off). The latest Fedora and Ubuntu are making strides but it is still extremely disappointing. I love Linux, I'd never go back to Windows but I really wish dual monitor setup was better.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Your point is true about old hardware. The difference between Linux and Windows however is that Windows works with *new* hardware, while Linux doesn't. Heck, Linux has trouble with laptop sleep mode, forget about bluetooth. If you just want to breathe life into an old box, you can install Linux. If you want to work/play with decent hardware you have to go out of your way to make it work.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a ton of stuff you could have done..

First you could of just clicked the "use the largest continuous amount of space" option, you could have looked on the forums, you could have downloaded a youtube video showing you how to do it.

The lame windows installer wouldn't have helped you any better in this instance, it would probably be even more confusing.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly do you propose he makes an image for "every piece of hardware you can imagine"?

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

The point of my posts were to highlight that the parent was wrong, windows isn't a one click install.

That being said you're right with the difficulty, the only way you'd know is the mount them and check what data is on them.

Either that or take one of the disks you're not installing out and do it that way.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu's upate is super easy and very fast -- everything windows update is not. You people who've never used Ubuntu just don't get it. Painless updates are something you have to experience for yourself in order to appreciate the difference. I look back on my windows days as "the dark ages".

Re:Newbie Question

[PunkOfLinux]

That only works when the machines are (relatively) homogenous.

Re:Newbie Question

[musicalwoods]

I'm just glad that Ubuntu can install without me unplugging one of my monitors, then setting up for dual-screen (at least with my system setup). , Sabayon has had that since at least 3.4, and it makes installing so much nicer.

Re:Newbie Question

[nawcom]

I mean stuff like getting at the firewall settings so I could be sure that port 22 was open, or getting at the bootloader settings - there's a Yast module for those in suse, in ubuntu you seem to be forced to modify obscure config files - and because there's no sensible way of installing software you can't actually get a useable text editor to edit them with (nor is there an obvious way to start one of the GUI text editors as root).

sudo, kdesu, gksu, etc. is what you use to get superuser access. you get tons of different text editors. vim, gvim, emacs, you get a collection of basic editors in gnome and kde, mousepad in xfce, etc. Sounds like you haven't accepted the difference between Windows and a unix based operating system. Don't want to edit a config file? Then go back to your Windows land. If you need to play with things like your bootloader, then the least you should be able to do is use the man command to learn a little. Crap, linux users seem to get more and more ignorant lately.

Re:Newbie Question

[Velex]

2) First you have to setup a partition to install windows.. lets assume it's an empty disk so you'd press c (create partition) and number the number of disk space for that partition then enter, then you press enter again to install on that partition.

As an interesting anecdote to back up your point: a friend/roommate bought a new computer and got ahold of a warez XP 64-bit install CD. None of the cd keys from my secret stash worked, naturally, so he decided to go buy a legit copy of XP. Because the 64-bit installer had already loaded stuff on the drive (yeah I know real technical language—it's the weekend jeez) the legit disk refused to do anything.

So I got out a handy Linux livecd to nuke the partition table so the legit XP CD would install from scratch. So he was all set.

A few weeks later he motioned me into his room after I got home from work and explained that Windows wasn't seeing his whole drive. I immediately noticed that Windows had only created a 300 GB partition on his 750 GB drive! I mentioned a few tools I could get together to expand the NTFS filesystem, but he decided to just make the other 450 GB a D: drive.

Moral of the story is that installing Windows is, as you suggest, not just hitting some big red "Install" button.

Re:Newbie Question

[Akzo]

Step 17: Learn the importance of a firewall.

Re:Newbie Question

[Mista2]

Actually on my desktop the XP process is rat around in all the machine paperwork for the XP Pro key, boot from the XP CDROM. No HDD detected, so then go out and buy a usb floppy disk drive and have to use another computer to make the driver floppy disk to be able to add the SATA drivers during setup, then complete the install as above, then attach to windows update hopoing that this time my fully legit copy of XP is determined to be genuine.
Wit over an hour for service packs to download then reboot, again.
My install for Linux Mint, pretty much as above Ubuntu description. Open Office installed by default, only had to confirm proprietary NVidia drivers and Wifi Card from Cisco and all done.
The first update didn't even require a restart.
The only one that has been easier is OSX 10.5 on my Mac Mini, but that did take an hour or so. Using bootcamp to install Unbuntu was about 20 minutes on that including splitting the disk in half. I really hope bootcamp get improved to enable creating multiple partitions. I'd like to easily tripple boot OS X, Ubuntu and XP/Vista.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you just choose a PC you like from the 95% of PCs that already have Windows on it. You never need to install another OS because Windows works and the majority of hardware and software are made for it.

5 years later, when your hard drive dies it will be time to upgrade anyways. Buy a new PC.

Re:Newbie Question

[bendodge]

Perhaps I'm just the exception to the rule, but I've never had an XP box get owned on install. Is that just because I always do it behind a router?

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah cause lord knows its not like you have to install a video driver if you want 3D acceleration or anything.....and lord knows its not like its going to take you 4 visits to the ubuntu forums, 3 visits to the IRC chat room, and much head banging to do it.

Re:Newbie Question

[williamgrant]

Multi-monitor almost always works fine with the Intel and ATI drivers. The nvidia blob still doesn't support XRandR 1.2, so you have to use their thpecial control panel, which tends to break things.

Re:Newbie Question

[williamgrant]

We community developers don't get a mention? Keep in mind that not all Ubuntu developers are employed by Canonical.

Re:Newbie Question

[therufus]

Except when you load nvidia drivers which instantaneously render your Gnome useless and leave you with a blinking cursor.

I just installed 8.10 half an hour ago. It loaded up first time and even detected my monitors 1680x1050 resolution. Then a popup told me that I can use nvidia restricted proprietary drivers to improve performance. I clicked it, it installed the latest (177) drivers and told me to restart. I did.

Now X is broken and I'm going to re-install all over again.

Re:Newbie Question

[featurelesscube]

Laptop sleep issues are usually related to bios bugs or closed video drivers (like the commonly seen radeon issues). I have decompiled the bios on several laptops and I am apalled at the simple bugs that make it into production.

The bugs are fixed in the windows driver, not in the bios where everyone can benefit.

You can download a new data table from here: http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php And have your initrd bang it into place, or just fix the bugs yourself - they are usually obvious.

Re:Newbie Question

[celle]

You forgot a few lines under windows:
8) Installing drivers for the various third party cards(nvidia,ati,linksys, etc).
9) Updating third party drivers from their various websites.
10) Installing disc based third party applications(games, antivirus, etc) and net applications(skype, anti-malware, etc)
11) Updating disc based third party applications from the net.
There's often several reboots during steps 8,9, and sometimes 10.

And two under ubuntu:
5) Update ubuntu from net.
6) Installing various third party applications from repositories.

It's definitely easier to install Ubuntu than WindowsXP.

Re:Newbie Question

[Eythian]

I use twinview on my laptop all the time, switching between dual and single a lot. The problem with it is really a Gnome issue. If you start up with a single monitor and switch to dual, Gnome doesn't think of it like two monitors, and so panels span both, windows maximise across both, etc.

The solution is to add 'Option "twinview" "1"' (or whatever it is) to your xorg.conf and the first time you use dual monitors after starting gnome, logout and login with the second monitor attached. Then it works.

You'll need to use the nvidia control panel to set up the monitor layouts etc.

With the exception of this (which is really less of a problem than it sounds, it meant that every couple of weeks I'd have to log out and log back in), twinview works fine.

In Intrepid, even this isn't necessary. Plug in a monitor, turn on twinview through the control panel, and it's all happy. Twinview is pretty much just an nvidia implementation of xinerama.

The reason it doesn't work like all the other cards is thanks to nvidia. Nothing that can be done until they see the light and make their drivers free software.

Re:Newbie Question

[sketerpot]

Huh. That happened to me, but I just started it up in some kind of safe mode where it started X without loading unusual drivers, and I uninstalled the nvidia stuff. Pretty easy. No reinstall needed.

If all else fails, you can usually just press Ctrl-Alt-F1 to switch away from a broken X and get a terminal, then use "sudo apt-get uninstall nvidia-glx nvidia-glx-new" and restart.

Re:Newbie Question

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

That only works when the machines are (relatively) homogenous.

So, are you saying that microsoft loves the sin, but hates the sinner?

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

So you installed windows, made a new windows disk then installed windows again?

Yeah.. I'm failing to see how that's easier then ubuntu's install options..

Re:Newbie Question

[Greyor]

I had the same sort of issue when I installed Hardy back in April. I've since learned to back up my xorg.conf. If everything goes to hell on me, I've just wiped my /etc/X11/xorg.conf and restored it from a backup.
That should solve your problem, especially when upgrading to 8.10. I plan on doing that if there's any problems -- I use nvidia drivers too.

Re:Newbie Question

[Draek]

Probably, most routers in my experience include some sort of firewall functionality, and even without it the worms would have trouble with the NAT, I think.

Well, you could always unplug your router and give it a try ;)

Re:Newbie Question

[Klucki]

Or you just choose a PC you like from the 95% of PCs that already have Windows on it. You never need to install another OS because Windows works and the majority of hardware and software are made for it.

5 years later, when your hard drive dies it will be time to upgrade anyways. Buy a new PC.

You would run a Windows installation for FIVE YEARS? That system would require an incredible amount of tweaking and maintenance just to boot in under an hour. Shit, I format every two months....

As for a new XP installation getting pnwed, install your anti-crap/firewall before you install your network adapter drivers. You did make a disc with all your common prog's and drivers before you wiped, didn't you?

I used Ubuntu 8.04 and loved it, whevever I would boot into XP it just gave me the shits. Sadly, I got sick of rebooting every time I wanted to play a game, so I went back to XP.

The day I stop gaming is the day I snap my Windows disc in half and do the chicken dance on the pieces...

Re:Newbie Question

[AnyoneEB]

As someone who uses TwinView under Linux, may I ask what is wrong with TwinView? I thought it emulated all of the relevant Xinerama stuff. What am I missing? (I cannot comment on the configuration as I do not use Ubuntu.)

My windows maximize to one monitor and dialog boxes appear in the middle of one of my monitors. The most major problem I have encountered is that the fullscreen mode of StepMania 3.9 (latest stable release) appears centered between the two monitors. I restart X in single monitor mode as a workaround, but I think the problem is with StepMania not the nVidia driver because the beta properly uses only my primary monitor (unfortunately it is very unstable).

Re:Newbie Question

[guyminuslife]

Last time I checked, Windows didn't support YaST and wasn't called SUSE.

But really, I'm trying to count how many Linux user stereotypes are being validated by this post.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is wrong with you ??

Yes an install of windows can last 5 years without a wipe.

If you dont install stupid shit on your system , it will boot just fine.

I have a xp system here , that the base install is at least 4 years old. ALL of the software thats running on it ( that I know of ( cant discount the fact that it MIGHT have a virus ) ) was installed right after the os install.

Why would a system that isnt fucked have its boot time increase ??

Re:Newbie Question

[poormanjoe]

It's actually easier to install IMO than Windows XP.

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

Everyone else is probably going to rip you to shreds for this, or if you're lucky try to give you a solution that by now you've discovered on your own anyway.

I won't do that. I'll say this instead: The stress you describe in your post is in no way related to "X being hard" or "Y being easy" or the technicalities of an install process or anything like that. What you experienced there was the fear of breaking out of your comfort zone and moving into the unknown. That's natural, it's part of what makes us people.

I remember that "are you sure?" moment from my first Linux install very well. I had to stare at that "Yes No" dialog for something like twenty minutes. Two or three cigarettes were smoked. I was petrified thinking of all the horrible things that could happen. And looking back on that now, that stare-down with my monitor didn't have a damn thing to do with partitions or installers or even the prospect of losing all my data. I was just scared of the unknown, as you were, and that's fine. Then we faced that fear and now we're more self-sufficient people because of that. So go us.

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

I mean stuff like getting at the firewall settings so I could be sure that port 22 was open,

You mean like System->Admin->Network Settings-> Ticking Active Network Services and hitting the netstat button?

or getting at the bootloader settings

oh, you mean like going to Application->Add/Remove and searching for "boot" to get the graphical boot up manager..

and because there's no sensible way of installing software you can't actually get a useable text editor to edit them with

Seriously? No usable way to install software?! apt-get can get you anything you want!

Oh man you are really trolling here.

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

What part of installing Windows XP requires my Microsoft Office disc?

The "using it for something when you're done" part.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't good at your job. Try slipstream on Windows or anaconda's kickstart on RHEL/Fedora.

You don't have to *do* anything these days. Or are you afraid of losing your job for such a simplified method?

Re:Newbie Question

[bonch]

How so? What I said is exactly that. On an unformatted disk you get three options, 1- use the whole disk, 2- custom partiton, and.. wait. there's only two.

I can't figure out what I mean by me over simplifying it because that's what it is, simple.

You word it so that the Windows partitioning step looks like it involves more steps than the Ubuntu stage, when both systems have a partition stage. You even have the user create a new partition for some reason when their disk is most likely already partitioned, and all they have to do is press Enter.

I did that because Ubuntu comes with Office software already on the disk.

You do realise that people use office software don't you?

Again (since you're being purposely obtuse), you cite Ubuntu's inclusion of OpenOffice as an advantage while pretending that versions of Office don't already come preinstalled on PCs or even on the OEM Windows recovery install disc included with the PC. Dell even has a CD with an app that lists all the bundled applications available, and you can just click their names. OpenOffice is also a free download for Windows.

This is nonsense, how can you do a fair comparrison of installing the operating system on a custom pc and come up with "the vendor disk".

Why wouldn't I? What is unfair about pointing out that Windows almost always comes with Office as well? And if it doesn't, OpenOffice is a free download for Windows too. I really don't see the point is of even bringing it up as an advantage.

It's totally irrelevant anyway because it's still not a click install even with the vendor disk. Which was my whole point in the first place.

There's no such thing as a "click install," especially with Linux.

Yes because it would be irresponsible not to download updates for Windows. It's so important that your box can get owned in less then 4 minutes.

Ubuntu never has security problems. Ever.

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

If two ACs argue on /. do they make a sound?

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

You never need to install another OS because Windows works

No shit? What kind of "work" do you do?

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

For Christ's sake. If you've got an install disc for XP just install VirtualBox and make a VM out of it. This is the 21st century.

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

You're full of shit.

Re:Newbie Question

[tylerni7]

Now obviously most of us here with at least a bit of linux experience know that you can just go edit the xorg.conf file or switch back to the old drivers and have xorg configured from the command line automatically, but the problem is that most users of computers can't.
The average user will think their computer is broken if they suddenly don't have a GUI interface, and there is no way in hell you'll be able to get them to fix it 'manually'.

I love linux and don't plan on switching my OS anytime soon because I don't mind dealing with these issues. But we need to understand people won't switch to linux when clicking an option on a dialog box will bork their graphics interface. Linux still has a ways to go before it can overrun the desktop market, but it's getting closer, and hopefully the newest Ubuntu release will get some more converts.

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

Why wouldn't I? What is unfair about pointing out that Windows almost always comes with Office as well?

That's not what I am talking about from the beginning and it's not the point I am trying to get across here.

The parent says

I like the ease of just clicking "install" and everything automagically takes care of itself. (Like my Windows XP disc.)

It's not and you idiots can keep replying here as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that windows is not a click install.

It doesn't matter what dell fucking ships to you, it's still NOT a click install.

It doesn't matter if Microsoft office is on your windows xp disk, it's STILL NOT a click install.

It doesn't matter if it gives you a blow job while it copies the files to disk, it's still not a click install.

Re:Newbie Question

[Tatsh]

I've been using nLite (and many other utilities and the $OEM$ folder and my own batch scripts) to customise my XP installs for years. Just recently I did a very custom install of XP with SP3 and nearly all my software, drivers, and all the crap removed. I also make custom discs for VirtualBox of 2000 and XP with nLite and for Vista I use vLite. I was able to bring Vista down to 1400 MB and install size was 4.5 GB. Beyond that, what Microsoft does not tell everyone is that there are ways to bypass the 512 MB memory requirement for Vista (and the 128 MB memory requirement for XP). Just editing files. nLite and vLite both do it automatically, along with slipstreaming updates and so many other good tweaks.

That being said, Linux is still my main OS, and that is slim too, being a very customised Gentoo. No sense at all these days how software companies just want to overload everyone. Average size of a PC game is now at least 6 GB installed. I am seeing more and more dual-layer PC games come out.

I think developers need to reconsider how big files really have to be. Why do the textures HAVE to be that large? And why such high quality audio? Sometimes, and most of the time, there is just no need. Now that there is the ability to use extremely high quality textures and perhaps DTS audio, game development companies are jumping to the occasion. This will only result in more people wanting consoles because they are cheaper and generally "just work" (minus RRoDs, laser problems with the PS2, and other things). Plus, you do not have to spend an hour just installing the game before playing.

Re:Newbie Question

[bonch]

"Click install" is obviously a figure of speech used to illustrate the ease of installation. You're being overly literal to score points with the anti-Windows crowd. I'm no fan of Windows (typing this on a Mac sitting next to a compiling FreeBSD box), but I've seen posts exactly like yours in the past that did the very same padding of the list to make it look like a favored-distro-of-the-month is easier to install while Windows is some overly complicated procedure.

Re:Newbie Question

[socsoc]

I've been using it all day and have yet to see it ask for an office disc

Re:Newbie Question

[LingNoi]

Your problem is that you're just not reading anything I write....

You word it so that the Windows partitioning step looks like it involves more steps than the Ubuntu stage, when both systems have a partition stage. You even have the user create a new partition for some reason when their disk is most likely already partitioned, and all they have to do is press Enter.

If you buy a new hard drive and install windows on it, it is not partitioned to NTFS. I'll quote what I said since you didn't read it, hopefully you will this time..

2) First you have to setup a partition to install windows.. lets assume it's an empty disk so you'd press c (create partition) and number the number of disk space for that partition then enter, then you press enter again to install on that partition.

You see those words? "empty disk", this was so that everyone knew what I was talking about.

you cite Ubuntu's inclusion of OpenOffice as an advantage while pretending that versions of Office don't already come preinstalled on PCs or even on the OEM Windows recovery install disc included with the PC.

and what the fuck has an OEM disk got to do with any of this, it's a cheap answer. An OEM disk (if you're lucky enough to have kept it or not have a custom PC) does not come in the retail box of Microsoft Windows.

Guess what also comes with an OEM disk, that's right! Ubuntu.

And if it doesn't, OpenOffice is a free download for Windows too. I really don't see the point is of even bringing it up as an advantage.

Because it's one less piece of junk you need to install before you can start doing your work.

"Click install" is obviously a figure of speech used to illustrate the ease of installation.

Ease of installation?! What a joke and did you even check out some of the other comments? I was being very restrictive in my list of steps, yet you lack any kind of thought in your response as though when people reinstall windows they don't need to take any of these steps.

You start making up hypothetical situations of people having OEM computers with special install disks. I notice that when you give these lame situations you never give a balanced view of Ubuntu either..

Where is the OEM version of Ubuntu in your response? You're comments are simply more bias then my original comment in this thread.

(typing this on a Mac sitting next to a compiling FreeBSD box),

Oh right I get it now, you've seen the ubuntu article and in typical BSD and Mac user fashion come to troll. Get the fuck out.

Re:Newbie Question

[quantumphaze]

Dual screen works mostly fine for me here on my Intel 945GM laptop (though I don't use DS often).

The only problems is the limited virtual desktop size of 2048x2048 for Compiz so I can only have the second screen above/below, and that I have to play with a setting in ccsm to get Compiz to draw windows across both screens correctly.

If it helps your Compiz problem the setting in question is under General>Display settings, untick detect outputs and add outputs for each screen or just one to make windows maximize across both screens (eg: 1280x1024+0+0 1280x800+0+1024).

The 2048x2048 problem requires me to edit the xorg.conf to get Metacity to draw a bigger desktop if I want side by side screens (but no Compiz). I read that it's a hardware limitation and the workaround never worked for me.

Re:Newbie Question

[marco.antonio.costa]

I didn't know that, sorry. Duper super kudos to you too. :-)

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Well for me it was more like

1) Find image, download image, burn to cd
2) install
3) see lots and lots of error messages
4) google 3 hours
5) ask a friend
6) download "alternative installer"
7) install by commandline interface (as in "not fun install")
8) Log in
9) Waste 2 days trying to get 2 monitors working (yes i know it works for you, for me it didn't and i'm not going to edit some xorg config files, if the gui doesn't allow me to do it its broken and not worth using
10) use working operating system

Re:Newbie Question

[da_matta]

You're technically correct, but comparing a current Ubuntu release to the 7 year old XP installation process is a bit pointless. Ubuntu Live installation is brilliant and innovative when it works (I've had to resort to alternate on several occasions), but it would be more relevant to compare it to the XP GUI install or even Vista install. Or then compare normal XP and Ubuntu alternate as they don't depend on being able to boot to working system (i.e. kernel , drivers and GUI working).

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

3) If it's an empty disk it'll ask if you want to use the whole disk. No ugly dos based program.

And if it's not empty - ntsf, ext3, extended, device, fat32, fat16?, mount point, flags, weird name, size, boot, root, swap and god knows what else shows up. And no info about what anything is used for iirc.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

The Mandriva/PCLOS drakconf isn't terribly different from KDE's system settings as seen in Kubuntu:
http://www.kubuntu.org/docs/kquickguide/C/ch03s07.html

Mandriva rips off Windows, KDE4 rips off Mac OS X :)
I still find it amazing how different configuration of the system is between different Ubuntu desktop flavours. Gnome likes to hide or even completely remove options, while KDE likes to give it to you firehose-style.

Ibex looked fine to me, after I installed the graphics driver. On further investigation, it was not so hot - 64-bit kernel didn't detect all 4 gigs of memory. Now I can't trust it to do anything right :(

I'm hoping it well be speedily fixed, like last time. 7.10 was useless to me in beta and the first week after release, but then suddenly problems disappeared. 8.04 didn't use the full screen (resolution set right, but not using all of it), and used two different keymaps before and after login.

Ubuntu used to be easiest to set up, but too many weird problems have cropped up in the last three releases.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

If you strip out enough services, there probably won't be much point in even updating :)
Some filthy pirates made an extremely stripped variant of XP using only 50 megs of RAM, with a few services. Out of the listed features, I saw 4-5 I'm sure could be disabled, so we're talking about Win98 levels of RAM usage after all that tweaking.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

I'll give you the audio quality - that's stupidly high sometimes. But audio is pretty small compared to graphics - 50 megs or less per hour of speech and pew-pew noises with lossy compression. Double that for music which doesn't sound like a babbling brook.

Textures, on the other hand, make quite a difference. Just try different quality levels in reasonably modern MMOs and shooters. I think that they could use lossier compression on the hi-res textures without noticable perceived quality, though.

3D models and maps also eat a bunch of space. Maps with all their textures can go well past 100 megs, with tens of those megs being geometry. A single-player game can afford more detailed player models, and many will make use of that. Then there are animations and lip-sync data.

There have been custom mods to games which both reduce load and make games prettier, though. Oblivion mods are a mixed bag, but the speedier grass and forests are good examples of the devs not doing enough optimisation.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

If you still DO install again, you can leave your home directory on its own partition and never reconfigure anything :)

Still a bitch to do in Windows.

Re:Newbie Question

[Grant_Watson]

If you have problems with the manufacturer's graphics drivers on any OS, Joe Sixpack is hosed; it's just not his area of expertise. It's the class of problem, not the OS.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

I had that exact problem on installing latest Kubuntu :)
"WDC-something-some number" versus "WDC-something-some other number". I did manage to pick the right one without blowing up my Windows partition..but Grub makes the boot drive into hd0 and the other two drives random numbers. It does not follow BIOS order, and the dumb installer follows BIOS order while setting up menu.lst. So Grub tries booting from hd2.

Quickly fixed by me, since I've done this hundreds of times, but another thing that really needs foolproof automatic tools.
I dunno if I'll even bother to report it as a bug, because my bugs from 7.10 are still open :(

Something good came out of it, though. I stopped installing Grub on anything but the Linux partition, and now use the BIOS boot menu. I just press F12 to get a list of boot drives, and the order never changes.

Re:Newbie Question

[tessonec]

Then you use the same disk over and over and over again :)

On exactly that computer. Linux distros (even being live-CD's) will work in a wide variety of hardware, your magic whateverLite, will not.

Re:Newbie Question

[EvilIdler]

I think the coward's point was about the missing 5%, which WUA is using.

Re:Newbie Question

[scuba0]

Well I'm not sure but I know AMD has rushed out a beta driver (never happened before on Linux) because Ubuntu upgraded to the new Xserver 1.5.0. With this release, drivers which are not configured for that version does not work very well. I would guess Nvidia has similar problems. It is one of the reasons why I prefer the open source drivers, there I know I get regular updates which are on course with the general Linux development.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I don't remember those options - mythbuntu comes with xfce - maybe they're buried more comprehensively.

apt-get is not a useable way to install software. It's a command line tool with a non-obvious name which requires you to know the name of the package that you want to install or do something else (which I never found out before I got fed up) to get the package name.

Compare to yast (which is called 'control centre' on the Kmenu) and has a 'software management' module which shows you which packages are available all categorized ready for your perusal. And with 10.3 and 11.0 you get one-click install for many packages on a web site. You go to the Suse website (everyone knows what a website is) find the page for the software that you want, and hit the one-click install button. How many orders of magnitude simpler is that than the command line?

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

In my personal experience PCLinuxOS requires more fiddling than Ubuntu, and the latest version of Mandriva will neither logout nor shutdown, instead choosing to hang indefinitely. I hope Ubuntu does *not* look too closely at either distro.

Re:Newbie Question

[ZERO1ZERO]

Sounds like what you want IS twinview. Xinerama has a bunch of stuff wrong with it and a few limitations that disappear when using the nvidia twinview mode.

Re:Newbie Question

[lien_meat]

It's true. Dual monitors in linux with gnome have been a real pain compared to Windows or OS X. I've always hated the fact. HOWEVER, I'm excited, because ibex does things with dual screens right (or at least tons better) on my laptop that previously in hardy didn't work right at all. Details: 1.) Hardy wouldn't let me switch to dual screens if I started up with just the laptop screen unless I killed X (by whatever method) and then logged back in. NOW, I have to kill X the first time after it sets up a virtual screen for me, and then it's fine after that. 2.) If I fullscreened or maximized a window in hardy on a dual screen setup, it would maximize across both screens usually (but not always...). This isn't the case now, and everything but flash vids will fullscreen in the window they previously existed in (with the exception to flash...which has a bug, and will go on your primary display...grrrrrr) 3.) In hardy, my dual monitor setup would have to be tweaked manually to be useful, because the screen resolution gui did NOTHING on my chipset. This seems to have been fixed. It worked just fine with NO xorg.conf tweaking. Your millage will probably very, but I really hope not cause I'm really quite satisfied. I'm running a pretty well supported dell inspiron 1525 with intel 965gm graphics (also known as x3100) with both 32 bit and 64 bit ibex beta, latest updates.

Re:Newbie Question

[thetoadwarrior]

It's no harder than windows but unfotunately it doesn't simply have a comically large install button and will require some thinking.

Re:Newbie Question

[DaVince21]

Actually, it depends a lot on the kind of PC you have, too - I had bad experience with getting some hardware to work in Mandriva when most it was found in Ubuntu.
Of course, the last time I used Mandriva is just after they renamed it from Mandrake, so hardware support really WAS something different back then. And I'll have to agree on the nice configuration screens.

Re:Newbie Question

[DaVince21]

Regarding the partitioning part, you are oversimplifying it. Windows comes with its partitioner during install, and Ubuntu also comes with its partitioner once you select the custom mode. You WILL need to have some knowledge about Linux partitions if you want to setup the partitions correctly, same for Windows.
Otherwise you are pretty much correct about the difference installation procedure; I loved how Ubuntu (well, XUbuntu) was less of a mess with it.

On an unrelated note... About Ubuntu installation, I guess one thing that would be nice is having some specific "PC/usage type" form where you can quickly and easily have packages installed or left out depending on if you have a "desktop", "laptop", "server", "media PC" etcetera. In other words, it'll only install a mail server if you selected "server", and it'll only install a decent media player and codecs if you selected "media PC".
...I don't know why I'm rambling about it in here though.

Re:Newbie Question

[Rennt]

Ibex looked fine to me, after I installed the graphics driver. On further investigation, it was not so hot - 64-bit kernel didn't detect all 4 gigs of memory. Now I can't trust it to do anything right :(

I thought the same thing, until I looked into it some more. You see ubuntu reports the amount of memory in GiB (Gigibites), not GB (Gigabites). So on a 4GB machine you will "see" 3.9GiB.

Confusing, yes. I think that they should just stick to good old gigabites, but apparently GiB is the standard being taught to new CS geeks everywhere - ironically to prevent confusion!

Upshot is that all your memory is detected and used, so don't worry about it.

Re:Newbie Question

[mcvos]

I just installed 8.10 half an hour ago. It loaded up first time and even detected my monitors 1680x1050 resolution. Then a popup told me that I can use nvidia restricted proprietary drivers to improve performance. I clicked it, it installed the latest (177) drivers and told me to restart. I did.

Now X is broken and I'm going to re-install all over again.

I had the same thing with 8.04 and ATI restricted drivers. I think it's the restricted drivers, or the way Ubuntu handles them, that sucks.

Re:Newbie Question

[mechsoph]

It's not that hard. You just add one line to your xorg.conf (something like "Virtual 2048 768" to the Display Subsection of your Screen section). Then you do a `xrandr --output VGA-0 --left-of DVI-0'. This gives you one X screen split across your two monitors. I have this working fine on multiple machines with the open source radeon drivers. The only hiccup from compiz is that if your total screen size if bigger than the maximum texture size of your card, you get some strange artifacts in the extra screen area. It's still quite usable, and a reasonable workaround is to just stick some window there pinned to all workspaces (I use an Eterm tailling /var/log/messages pinned using devilspie).

It used to be possible to run each monitor as a separate X screen using a little more hackery in the xorg.conf file. I thought that was nicer than using a single screen; however, Xorg broke that sometime in the past 10 months. Now trying to make that work (at least with the radeon drivers) will cause X to crash, which is really just pathetic.

Re:Newbie Question

[Kjella]

got ahold of a warez XP 64-bit install CD. None of the cd keys from my secret stash worked (...)

Moral of the story is that installing Windows is, as you suggest, not just hitting some big red "Install" button.

Most definately the only moral of the story ;)

Re:Newbie Question

[fwarren]

Try installing Windows XP on a new system with SATA disks and no floppy drive. That having access to a running system and slipstreaming the correct drivers into the XP Installer CD.

And don't wine about about Windows XP being an OS from 2002. It was always stupid that the only way to load a driver was from floppy. Also SP2 CD's are more circa 2004/2005

Re:Newbie Question

[Vu1turEMaN]

Who says it won't work on other computers?

At work, I use one for all of the desktops, and one for all of the laptops (because if its a desktop, I can uninstall alot more drivers to slim it even more, and the same works for laptops too). I use mine on a variety of hardware, and just make sure that I integrate drivers for everything I'm gonna use it for.

And if I forget something, I can just re-launch nlite from ANY computer and use the saved nLite profile on the disk to add what I need and still keep my current settings.

It doesn't have the full hardware support that a live-cd does, sure....but for windows users its a godsend if you use it properly.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I ahve had both Mac and XP breaking on updates so I am not surprised Ubuntu does this too.

Re:Newbie Question

[GFree678]

You hated Windows? I didn't. I hated the fucktard who came up with Sasser. Yes it's a shame Windows was vulnerable in such a case, but it did persuade Microsoft to supply a better firewall (enabled by default) with Service Pack 2. Such things act like a motivation sometimes.

Re:Newbie Question

[l0cust]

I'd love a copy of XP that installed as easily as hitting the "install" button.

Well, if you have nothing against using pirated releases, you can search for one of the unattended XP SP3 install discs on newsgroup/piratebay/your-source-of-choice. It comes with everything pre-configured, along with the Serial Number.

That being said, installing Ubuntu was a breeze for me. I am not a *nix newbie but I have been away from it for long enough to start considering myself as one (first 2 years in college entirely *nix and then lost touch after graduation because of gaming/work). I went for a dual boot setup on the office system with Hardy Heron and it installed without a hitch. It even prompted and helped me install the proper drivers for my graphics card with just a click. The network driver worked flawlessly so I am a bit puzzled when I hear so many people mention that they had trouble with the network driver.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Who wants to save their employer money if they won't pay them any more money for being more efficient at their job?

Re:Newbie Question

[nine-times]

You shouldn't really have to reinstall, but I'm not positive what the best/easiest method of fixing this is if you don't already know what you're doing. You should be able to use the Ubuntu install CD as a LiveCD and boot your machine. From there you should be able to edit your X11org.conf, or else chroot to the installed OS and use apt-get to remove the restricted drivers.

I don't know if that's better or worse for you than re-installing, but if you're interested you could use this as an opportunity to learn some things. Or not-- I don't know whether you *want* to learn some things.

Re:Newbie Question

[In hydraulis]

I'm (originally) from a corner of the world that has only recently discovered ADSL. So most of my experiences in installing XP were offline, until about a year ago.

Sasser would gleefully strike the very first time I'd fire up the dialup on a fresh install. I could hear it mock me: Good luck downloading that antivirus, bitch!

Re:Newbie Question

[LarsG]

The entire Ubuntu installation, configuration, and applying all updates takes less then 1/2 hr (no, I'm not exaggerating, try it) and is finished while Windows XP is still formatting the disk.

To be sort of fair to MS, if you start out with an original (non-SP2) ancient XP install CD then the process of doing all the updates is analogous to installing a Ubuntu Warty Warthog and doing dist-upgrades to Ibex.

If you are going to do many similar installs on machines with fairly similar hardware, you can build a custom install image that includes all the win* updates / drivers / 3rd party software unattend installs, etc. If you are doing one-offs on lots of different hardware then, yeah, I feel your pain; I did quite a bit of that in the Win9x era, and the amount of manual steps one is required to do is silly.

Re:Newbie Question

[Erikderzweite]

They're really doing their best. Unfortunately, it is not possible for them to include non-free binary blobs and some multimedia by default. Not a Linux problem, but a license/patent one. On my laptop with Intel GPU and a wireless card with free drivers available it installs like a breeze and works out of the box including WPA2 encryption. Of course, I was doing some research before buying that thing and it payed off well.
As for Adobe flash -- it installs in two clicks (they ship Firefox with an extension which manages this).

Re:Newbie Question

[Hognoxious]

Setting the timezone is pretty difficult in mythbuntu 8.04 - there's a map that scrolls at an insane rate.

Re:Newbie Question

[Hognoxious]

// to do: Insert Apple joke here

Re:Newbie Question

[electrictroy]

That doesn't make any sense. Memory is measured in base 2 (gibibytes). If Ubuntu is also using base 2, it should report 4 GiB. If it uses base 10, it should report 4.3 gigabytes.

It should never report less than 4.

Re:Newbie Question

[electrictroy]

What you describe below is identical to what happens when I reinstall XP onto my HP machine. With just few minor modifications.

>>>Ubuntu on the other hand contains much less steps
>>>1) Pop in disk
>>>2) click on the install icon and choose your keyboard, location, username and password
>>>3) .....
>>>4) Wait for installer to finish then restart taking out the disk

The grandparent was correct that you put-in a bunch of nonsense (lies) in order to boost your case. Reinstalling XP on my machine is ridiculously easy.

Re:Newbie Question

[tylerni7]

But the problem is stuff like that just isn't going to happen in Windows or OSX.
It's not difficult to upgrade your Ubuntu system and then end up with a new version of your graphics driver that doesn't work, or that decided to reconfigure xorg.conf to something that isn't what you want.

Now on the one hand, Windows and OSX users just don't get presented with the opportunity to update their graphics cards, at least not as regularly as linux users do with a nice package management system. I'm just saying this is a double-edged sword, you get the better graphics drivers, but it's entirely possible to screw something up, and most users don't care if their graphics system is up to date or not, they just click anything that says upgrade.

So while it can happen on any OS, and I'm sure it does happen to people using OSs other than linux, I'm just saying that linux makes it much easier to screw up the graphics drivers, because it currently is geared towards people that can fix that problem if they have it.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

XP SP2 installed without any need for a floppy on my nforce 4 SATA chipset. I did need to install the NVIDIA nforce drivers to get decent speed after installing windows but the generic SATA driver included was working fine for installation purpose. And the nforce 4 chipset predates the "standard" interface now implemented in most SATA chipsets that makes it painless to work with.

Re:Newbie Question

[electrictroy]

>>>>> I like the ease of just clicking "install" and everything automagically takes care of itself. (Like my Windows XP disc.)

>> It's not and you idiots can keep replying here as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that windows is not a click install.

MY versions of Windows XP is that simple. 3 steps (insert CD and click install, type username, remove disc when done). That's all it takes. Who are YOU to disagree with my statement? Are you in my room? Looking over my shoulder? Do you even own a Dell Dimension with dual-hard drive RAID system? Hell no. So frak off.

You remind me of a damn Democrat politician, who thinks HE knows better than I do, how I should run my own life ("let the government take care of you like a daddy"). I'm not an idiot. I'm not a child. Don't talk down to me like I am.

I stand by my original statement as accurate.

Re:Newbie Question

[electrictroy]

>>>You're being overly literal to score points with the anti-Windows crowd.

He's also being a major-league asshole. He doesn't know how easy my XP is to install. How could he? He's never even touched my machine and has *no clue* how it easy it works. Damn Cylon bastard.

Anyway I've got an XP laptop which I can sacrifice to a pure-Ubuntu Linux install. I'll try that sometime during my Christmas break when I have time to kill.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

If your window manager is compiled with xinerama support, and you have nvidia's twinview active, then you shouldn't get anything "centered on the seam". I've been running dual monitors with ATI and NVidia cards for years, and I've never had a single problem or annoyance.

Ok, well, I could understand an annoyance if your screens are different resolutions. Don't think I can help you there :/

Re:Newbie Question

[fwarren]

Off the top of my head, I can recall hardware that was "new" in April of 2007 and October of 2008 that needed slipstreaming. The 2007 system was a $900 HP. The 2008 was a $3,000 DELL XPS system.

I did not say all SATA systems have this problem. But enough of them do that you can still end up having to slipstream some SATA drivers every once in a while. Of course Linux is not perfect either. Most live CD's do not come with dmraid. At least you apt-get it while running an Ubuntu or Mint LiveCD.

Re:Newbie Question

[Falstius]

My laptop has a radeon card and 1400x1050 screen (which is why I haven't replaced it, those screens are scarce these days) and I usually use external LCDs at 1280x1024, so a single virtual desktop isn't a good solution. A similar mixed resolution setup on my desktop with an Nvidia card works well enough (so long as compiz is off) and was trivial to setup using the nvidia-config tool. Its not that dual monitors on Linux doesn't work, it just doesn't work nearly as well as it should and would quickly surpass the patience of any normal person to do an abnormal setup.

Re:Newbie Question

[JohnBailey]

Yeah cause lord knows its not like you have to install a video driver if you want 3D acceleration or anything.....and lord knows its not like its going to take you 4 visits to the ubuntu forums, 3 visits to the IRC chat room, and much head banging to do it.

And Lord knows that heroic levels of exaggeration sound much better than sticking to reality..

I'm a fedora user myself, but I have installed Ubuntu a few times, and the video driver installation has been pretty much automated since 7.something. Perhaps earlier. Whenever Codec buddy was included.

In Fedora once you do the slightly more complex task of installing the Livna repository (download the RPM and double click it in the file manager), how hard is it to type "yum install kmod-nvidia" as root and reboot after the package manager takes care of everything. Hardly a major task. It used to be a bit more complicated, but now it is getting so easy that it will stop being a challenge any day now.

Re:Newbie Question

[Poromenos1]

You can slipstream the Windows XP drivers for everything into a CD so you don't have to install any of them, check out http://driverpacks.net/.

Re:Newbie Question

[sketerpot]

Personally, I'm waiting for Intel to come out with Larrabee. It's just a bunch of x86 cores with unusual SIMD instructions and a bit of dedicated graphics hardware, and Intel has a history of making good open source Linux drivers, so it should be a lot easier to support.

Barring that, I'd like to see manufacturers start offering Ubuntu pre-installed on computers. Surely somebody can make a buck from it, even if it's just some little company.

Re:Newbie Question

[Laurence0]

Bwahahahahahahaaaa...

Windows XP does everything automagically? In what parallel universe?

Last time I installed Windows, I then spent a day or two installing drivers and software and configuring everything as I wanted it. Last time I installed Ubuntu, I spent an hour installing the OS and all apps (one apt-get command) and no installing of drivers was required.

Re:Newbie Question

[danbert8]

Actually, recent versions of Ubuntu have totally useless xorg.conf files. There just isn't anything in them, and it's annoying if you know how to fix the problem in xorg, but the configuration is now done automatically.

Re:Newbie Question

[CSMatt]

This still isn't something that everybody can use. Judging by nLite's guide, this looks like it's about as much work as doing everything later, only that it's done before the install instead of after. I can see the advantage if you reinstall Windows often, or if this was a volume-licensed copy and you were going to use the same disc on a bunch of workstations, but nLite clearly targets the sysadmin market.

Furthermore, if Ubuntu came without any drivers whatsoever, I could add them myself (assuming the license is compatible), create an ISO, and share it with the world so that no one else would have to hunt down drivers. Try doing that with Windows and see what happens.

Re:Newbie Question

[jabithew]

Yes because it would be irresponsible not to download updates for Windows. It's so important that your box can get owned in less then 4 minutes.

While I don't disagree, this was only the case before XP SP2, when Windows finally started shipping with a firewall running.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not the case any more. I have the beta version running on my computer, with the nvidia driver and twinview, and now if I maximise something, it will only take one of the screens. They changed something in gnome, I guess, so now it also knows to center stuff in the middle of the screen, such as gdm, screensaver, etc.

BTW, I was using 8.04.1 and having exactly the problems you mention. Just upgrade it.

Re:Newbie Question

[MeanderingCode]

What version of Windows XP are you using? Any time I've installed XP from a normal disk, it requires at least agreeing to some license agreement, partitioning, formating, configuring your network to some degree, choosing username, clicking "Next" a bunch of times, some other random stupid things I'm preobably not remembering, and then installing several drivers. I'd love a copy of XP that installed as easily as hitting the "install" button.

Look for an "Unattended" copy of XP Pro Corporate...As long as you're plugged into ethernet (as opposed to hoping your laptop wireless card will automagically work from the cd...linux for that), You just have to choose your install partition, walk away, come back later and name the machine and set a password, walk away, then come back later. Of course, the only user is "Administrator" and has the password you set, but you can add a user or change your username if you wish (changing XP usernames and trying to change the name of your...."home"...directory is a process....add another user and disable the Administrator log in, except of course for safe mode.).

Re:Newbie Question

[arikol]

Dual monitor support may not be good enough on Ubuntu, but NO WAY is it good enough on XP either. I have used a few different dual screen combos (different screens, different cards, different drivers) using both ATI and Nvidia stuff and I can assure you that it does not work beautifully.
At least not all the time.
sometimes, yeah, but that really isn't good enough, especially when it comes to commercial software (the OS) and drivers (binaries from ATI/Nvidia)

It CAN'T work properly in XP because the OS doesn't support that kind of jiggery pokery. The drivers (or other management software on top of that) must make workarounds to get past XPs limitations.
that workaround is a beaut...
if you have one 1600x1200 and one 1024x768 monitors it makes a (virtual) really big 2624x1200 monitor. The driver then tries to do edge detection on the monitors, limiting the USABLE part of that virtual screen with, basically, a line in the sand.
Any problems you can imagine?
Well sometimes (but only sometimes) edge detection on the smaller monitor goes all funny. And if you have any kind of driver problem you can get REALLY funny issues, like the monitors getting reversed (screen 1 becoming screen 2 and vice versa) which is uncomfortable enough for navigating but this may flip icons and other stuff (like programs, especially their toolbar) of the edge of the screen.
But that can usually be remedied by a full driver uninstall/reinstall (repeat as often as neccessary).

There is only one commercial, kind of popular OS that handles multiple monitors with almost no fuss, that is OS X.

MacOS X, the least shitty OS out there.... (could still do with some improvement)

Ubuntu easily beats OS X on price though as well as a number of interesting features, none of which has the words "usability" or interface design in them. Although if they keep it up like they have that may change
And XP beats OS X on... well... if you do CAD stuff.... only thing I can think of. Not all bad though, just has had its day and is not being improved and developed any more.
Vista, of course, beats no OS at anything (for the kids and others with a puerile sense of humour I may add "except suckage")

I would like to add that OS zealotry helps no one, I mostly use a Mac these days, some XP, some Ubuntu and I hope that Windows 7 will be good (let's just ignore Vista, not good enough, hopefully just a mistake). I hope all those products will continue improving greatly as that will benefit users and vendors alike.

Re:Newbie Question

[Redlazer]

It is, sorta.

You can install Ubuntu from Windows, but if you really are a newbie, then you may find the KDE interface a little easier to navigate. I still use the KDE interface, and its great.

If that's the case, then Kubuntu (with a K, for KDE) may be the distro from you. You can actually install (K)Ubuntu from inside of windows, but I've heard of some drawbacks (other than if things go wrong) being Ubuntu runs alittle slower. You are running Ubuntu natively in that case, though. Im not sure what causes the slowdown.

In any case, Ubuntu is an excellent Linux distro, and IMHO, the best out there. Of course, everyone has their own for their own reasons - don't let anyone tell you which to get.

Unless you ask me. In which case, get Ubuntu.

-Red

Re:Newbie Question

[bonch]

Your problem is that you're just not reading anything I write....

I've read everything you've said. You're acting like one of those angry Linux zealots who gets upset when their anti-Windows propaganda is challenged.

If you buy a new hard drive and install windows on it, it is not partitioned to NTFS. I'll quote what I said since you didn't read it, hopefully you will this time..

Give me a break. Nearly all hard drives you ever buy will already be partitioned with one big partition taking up the whole drive. You don't "partition to NTFS"--partitioning and filesystem format are separate things. The majority of hard drives will be pre-formatted for NTFS too. How does this even help your case since, if the drive isn't pre-partitioned and pre-formatted, that's an extra step for Ubuntu as well?

You see those words? "empty disk", this was so that everyone knew what I was talking about.

I already said that in the real world, you most likely wouldn't even have to do that step because few hard drives are unpartitioned and unformatted. If it comes that way, that's a step for Ubuntu as well so it's meaningless to bring it up. Notice that you think it's important because it makes the Windows install longer, but you don't consider that it makes the Ubuntu installer longer too? That's proof you're not looking at this from a balanced viewpoint.

and what the fuck has an OEM disk got to do with any of this, it's a cheap answer. An OEM disk (if you're lucky enough to have kept it or not have a custom PC) does not come in the retail box of Microsoft Windows.

What does Office have to do with any of this? It's a cheap way to pad your list. It's like saying Ubuntu comes with an IRC client and Windows doesn't, and thus, that's an OMG-EXTRA-STEP that Windows users have to go through. Give me a break. It was a stupid attempt on your part to make the Windows install process seem longer than it is, so I pointed out that most Windows PCs already come with Office anyway.

And OpenOffice is a free download for Windows! So that point is moot and worthless.

Because it's one less piece of junk you need to install before you can start doing your work.

I thought your point was about the steps involved in the operating system installers. You were obviously just padding the list with "junk."

Ease of installation?! What a joke and did you even check out some of the other comments? I was being very restrictive in my list of steps, yet you lack any kind of thought in your response as though when people reinstall windows they don't need to take any of these steps.

I've installed Windows countless times. You were padding the list to make Windows look worse, like adding extra "Installing more files" steps. Don't you think I've seen posts like yours before on Slashdot? It's predictable propaganda.

Hell, you don't even mention Vista's installer which is even easier than XP's.

You start making up hypothetical situations of people having OEM computers with special install disks. I notice that when you give these lame situations you never give a balanced view of Ubuntu either..

Hypothetical situations? Every Windows-based PC you buy comes with an OEM disc that has the Windows installer and often a second disc with drivers and pre-installed applications. I just restored a Dell last night using that method. You're just mad that you have no counterargument for it. I don't need to give a view of Ubuntu because I'm not the one claiming anything like you. I'm merely responding to your biased comparisons between the two in terms of their installers. If you want to talk about balanced views, what should a user do if X.org doesn't properly auto-detect their integrated Intel video card like on one of the towers I hav

Re:Newbie Question

[rantingkitten]

Then here's a more detailed version for you -- three OS installs on identical hardware.

Ubuntu literally is "click install, select your partition, name, timezone, and password, and wander away for twenty minutes." When it comes up everything works out of the box. Customize your wallpaper and other visuals if you must, but your hardware and software works fine. Ooh, you might have to click "Enable Drivers" to get your Broadcom wireless working -- what a pain. And it comes with damn near everything an average user would care about. Want more software? Click on it. Hell, click fifty of 'em, and install them all simultaneously with almost zero interaction from you once you've kicked off the process.

Updates install all at once and never require a reboot except in the case of a kernel update, and even then, you can tell it to sod off until you're ready.

If you've previously used Ubuntu (or any other distro, really), unpack your home directory tarball and hey -- all your customizations and application settings just how they were before.

XP and Vista require you to hold their hands throughout the entire install process.

CLICK HERE TO ACTIVATE WINDOWS
RUN DESKTOP ICON CLEANUP WIZARD?

When they're done installing half the devices have no drivers -- hope you have that recovery disk, or enjoy tromping through endless vendor websites,

WARNING YOUR COMPUTER MAY BE AT RISK CLICK HERE

downloading the driver installers,

THIS DRIVER WAS NOT DIGITALLY SIGNED AND MAY RAPE YOUR GRANDMOTHER

and installing them one at a time (agreeing to god-knows-what EULA in the process).

30 DAYS LEFT FOR ACTIVATION

Got your hardware running now? Good, go install Windows updates and reboot five or six times.

ONE OR MORE WIRELESS NETWORKS DETECTED, CLICK HERE TO JOIN A WIRELESS NETWORK

YOUR COMPUTER MAY BE AT RISK, NO ANTI-VIRUS DISCOVERED, CLICK HERE TO OPEN WINDOWS SECURITY CENTER

Done with that? Great! Now write a letter to your boss. Oops, you can't. Go find/steal/crack Office/OpenOffice and have fun installing that.

WINDOWS NEEDS YOUR PERMISSION TO CONTINUE, CANCEL OR ALLOW?
HEY! HEY! CLICK HERE TO SAFELY REMOVE HARDWARE!
HEY! TAKE A TOUR OF WINDOWS XP!

Niiiiice, you wrote a letter to your boss. What's next? How about a little web-surfing? Oh, you're not seriously going to use IE, are you? Go get Firefox and install that.

WINDOWS IS CONFIGURING UPDATES... WINDOWS WILL NOW REBOOT...

Well, that's done. Why don't you make a CD for your girlfriend? Oh, gee, you can't, unless you think WMP is going to do it, which it won't. Go google for decent CD burning software and hope it's not trialware, crippleware, or installs some BS spyware alongside. Install it.

May as well chat with your friends, see what they're up to. What? No IRC or AIM client? Bugger, better go find those, install them, customize them the way you're used to.

See, this is easy and fast! Windows: Ready for the Desktop!

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to disagree with you there. Ubuntu has always been the most trouble free for me. Mandriva has usually sort of worked but been tremendously flakey. Same thing with PCLOS although I only tried that once a couple of years ago.

I'm not saying that Ubuntu will better for everybody but to say "No." so categorically is ridiculous. Ubuntu may well be the easiest version for the grandparent to set up.

Re:Newbie Question

[The Good Reverend]

It's not that hard. You just add one line to your xorg.conf (something like "Virtual 2048 768" to the Display Subsection of your Screen section). Then you do a `xrandr --output VGA-0 --left-of DVI-0'. This gives you one X screen split across your two monitors. I have this working fine on multiple machines with the open source radeon drivers. The only hiccup from compiz is that if your total screen size if bigger than the maximum texture size of your card, you get some strange artifacts in the extra screen area. It's still quite usable, and a reasonable workaround is to just stick some window there pinned to all workspaces (I use an Eterm tailling /var/log/messages pinned using devilspie).

Right...compared to Windows, where all I've ever had to do is plug in my monitor. I'm a linux newbie, and while I understood the basics of what you typed, I can't believe you tried to justify that explanation with "It's not that hard". You're a very funny person.

Re:Newbie Question

[mechsoph]

Right...compared to Windows, where all I've ever had to do is plug in my monitor.

And installing a USB-serial adapter in linux is as easy as plugging it in while I still haven't figured out how to make it work in Windows. And the gnome NetworkManager applet puts wireless configuration in Windows (at least XP, I've never used Vista) to shame. Some things are easier under Linux and some are harder. Surprising huh?

I'm a linux newbie.

Back when I was a Linux newbie we had to manually edit our xfree86.conf files to get X working at all. Uphill. Both ways.

I can't believe you tried to justify that explanation with "It's not that hard".

Compared to how things worked a couple years ago, it's a piece of cake. The number of things that "Just work" under Linux is making very rapid progress, but if you want a machine that requires the least fiddling (and you can stomach Jobs-ian aesthetics) the answer is still to fork over the cash for a Mac.

Also, this is slashdot. If adding one line to a config file and typing one command sounds hard to you, you should probably be reading 4chan or commenting on youtube videos.

Re:Newbie Question

[Samah]

The solution is to add 'Option "twinview" "1"' (or whatever it is) to your xorg.conf...

...and this is why I don't use Linux. It's not that I don't know how to do it, it's that I shouldn't HAVE to. Any operating system that requires fiddling around in config files to make something work is just not "good enough". Hell, if there were an option somewhere in Gnome/KDE to enable that flag with a checkbox in a nice GUI window (there may be, I've never looked), that would be perfect. Just because your semi-tech-savvy user knows how and where to edit a config file doesn't mean your "I'm sick of Windows and want to try this Linux thing" user will know how.

I love Linux as much as the next guy, and I use it on my server, but I just can't bring myself to switch my main PC over. Not because I need to know how to edit config files, but because I shouldn't have to. That and the fact that I'm a gamer and Wine just doesn't cut it in my opinion.

Re:Newbie Question

[Eythian]

I'm not sure that any config file editing is necessary with intrepid. I haven't removed that line from my xorg.conf to see if it still works, it's reasonably possible (given what I worked out of the failure mode previously) that it does.

The nvidia control panel thing does allow you to save the changes to the xorg.conf, and I presume it turns that on. I've never used it, I prefer to do things by hand.

Your 'not needing to edit config files' thing is a bit short-sighted. Whenever I find myself on a windows machine for any length of time, I have to make changes to the registry to have it behave in a useful manner. That, and installing a whole host of third-party programs to make it able to do anything at all. Windows is just not really ready for the desktop.

And, the only games I play are the HL2 series. They work just fine in Linux. Last time I tested it (and it was a very long time ago) I was getting a better framerate in Linux under wine than Windows (98, to give an idea of how long ago that was).

Re:Newbie Question

[Eythian]

Twinview actually handles different res screens alright, that's how I use it 95% of the time. It's not totally perfect, but it's good enough. Windows maximize within the visible space, and so forth. Some misbehaving programs (firefox is one) will sometimes have menus going off the bottom of the shorter one, but that's about it.

Re:Newbie Question

[Samah]

I'm not sure that any config file editing is necessary with intrepid.

Fair enough, that would be nice.

Whenever I find myself on a windows machine for any length of time, I have to make changes to the registry to have it behave in a useful manner.

Define "useful". It's rare that I had to touch the registry in XP, and I haven't had to at all with Vista 64. Once you disable UAC and the annoying red shield in the systray (neither of which require editing the registry), Vista is actually pretty good.

That, and installing a whole host of third-party programs to make it able to do anything at all. Windows is just not really ready for the desktop.

This is because Windows is an operating system, not an OS+apps package. That's like saying Linux isn't ready for the desktop because you need to install other programs (ie. OpenOffice, etc.) It's rather unfair to compare raw Windows to Ubuntu. That's like comparing an apple to a fruit salad. You need to be comparing Windows + third-party apps vs Linux kernel + third-party apps (ie. Ubuntu).

And, the only games I play are the HL2 series. They work just fine in Linux. Last time I tested it (and it was a very long time ago) I was getting a better framerate in Linux under wine than Windows (98, to give an idea of how long ago that was).

Windows 98 never ran anything decently. :) The main game-related reason that I won't switch over is that it's ridiculously difficult to get WoW + Ventrilo/Teamspeak working with push-to-talk. Having to wrap wine with aoss is just silly (I tried alsa, it just wouldn't bloody work). Having said that, the actual game itself ran very nicely, even with Beryl. Of course I had to run it in OpenGL which was a bit of a disappointment. :(

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a graphic artist.

You are either a troll or haven't used Windows since the 9x series.

In Windows I can plug in a new device, it pops up a message saying it found new hardware, installs the proper driver (if needed) and it's ready for use within just a few seconds. In Linux if you plug in a new device, the system could freeze (USB devices in particular), it won't see it or it will want you to download and compile a driver along with every single dependency that driver needs.

I don't have time to tweak my OS or find some alternative OSS software replacement that only offers a small subset of functions that its commercial rival has. I need it to just work. Windows does that, Linux does not.

Re:Newbie Question

[westyvw]

You dont install it on every piece of hardware I can imagine. That would be here: Many Archs

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

That's still more than it should be. It should just work out of the box, no typing necessary. It's a small inconvenience, yes. The small ones though make the OS less polished however.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I, in the past, have had similar complaints. I must say that when I installed this latest version of Ubuntu today, it worked quite well. Two monitors took me five minutes to set up, and I've still not even looked at xorg.conf.

I do still have one complaint, though. If I don't adjust the resolution before I play a fullscreen game, the game fails to start the video properly. I found a workaround, but it's a nuisance. I look forward to what X is becoming, though

Re:Newbie Question

[xouumalperxe]

You are, of course, absolutely right. The problem's in the drivers, and you can't fault the OS for it. However, from a purely utilitarian point of view, people want their computers to work, so "my nVidia card works in Windows but not in Linux" ends up putting Linux under the "doesn't work" header, even if technically it's not a Linux problem.

Re:Newbie Question

[ReinoutS]

the latest version of Mandriva will neither logout nor shutdown, instead choosing to hang indefinitely.

It's unfortunate that it doesn't work well for you, but it works fine for many other people. Have you filed a bug already?

Re:Newbie Question

[Bootarn]

(Like my Windows XP disc.)

That's interesting, because in all my XP setups I've done for friends on their fairly recent machines, I have to spend about half an hour or more to browse around downloading drivers for pretty much everything. That is, if the ethernet card works. Otherwise I have to get my USB key and use another computer to download the ethernet drivers and transfer it to my friend's computer.

For instance, I built a computer for my brother a couple of weeks ago. He wanted to run XP, but also wanted to try out Ubuntu (8.04). We installed windows first, to avoid the MBR hassle. The windows installation, including downloading drivers, took about two hours. SP3 download/install took about another hour. The Ubuntu installation took 45 minutes including downloading software updates, because it had support for ethernet, graphics etc. out of the box.

So, what's the point of this post? It's to inform you that in many cases Ubuntu is *easier* to install than XP from scratch. However, if your computer manufacturer sent along a "System Restore CD", you'll probably have drivers for your ethernet card etc., so then it could be as easy to install XP on your particular machine (if not easier in some cases).

Re:Newbie Question

[Bootarn]

Barring that, I'd like to see manufacturers start offering Ubuntu pre-installed on computers. Surely somebody can make a buck from it, even if it's just some little company.

I run a small computer business. While I offer XP installations, I recommend Ubuntu, and my customers usually think it's a good idea. That said, I offer to install any operating system per request, but I always recommend Ubuntu due to it's simplicity.

Re:Newbie Question

[Chutulu]

5) You get to the desktop at which point you have to put in your Microsoft Office disk
6) Follow the installer to get Microsoft office installed
7) Run windows update to install important security updates for Microsoft Office and Microsoft Windows xp

What???????? You are imagining things you freetard.

Re:Newbie Question

[ubrgeek]

Not sure what you mean. I installed server and only got the bits I needed. Installed Samba after as it wasn't part of the default package because they don't know if you'll want it, so they leave it up to you. Same with other components.

Re:Newbie Question

[DaVince21]

Really? I remember it installing some software most people wouldn't need some time ago... Must just be me.

Re:Newbie Question

[Risen888]

Actually I had the annoyance of using Windows XP just yesterday. But I wasn't aware it came with any graphic arts programs. Do you do everything in Paint?

In Windows I can plug in a new device, it pops up a message saying it found new hardware, installs the proper driver (if needed) and it's ready for use within just a few seconds. In Linux if you plug in a new device, the system could freeze (USB devices in particular), it won't see it or it will want you to download and compile a driver along with every single dependency that driver needs.

Yeah, just like that except exactly the opposite. No wonder you post AC.

Re:Newbie Question

[Nesman64]

In all fairness, XP/Vista don't always work well with dual monitors. Sometimes I don't want to use the second monitor in Vista, so I disable it and turn the CRT off. Few minutes later the "found new hardware" sound is playing the Mexican Hat Dance.

Also, don't assign your external monitor to be primary for a laptop with Intel graphics. It will forget to fire up the primary and then you're pretty much boned. The login prompt and panel to fix this will only open on the disabled side of your desktop.

Re:Newbie Question

[Rennt]

Nuts. When you're wrong you're wrong.
Sorry for the late reply, but I only just noticed your post.
Slashdot being what it is, all posts are permanent, so I just wanted to go on record to say you are right and I fucked up.
Cheers.

Re:Newbie Question

[chrb]

I have the same setup. The virtual desktop works fine - somehow Xorg figures out that half the virtual desktop is a different resolution and does the right thing. I have taskbar pop up on 1400x1050 screen, can't remember why.

Same virtual screen ('Virtual 2800 1050' in xorg.conf), in /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsetup :

xrandr --output VGA-0 --mode 1280x1024
xrandr --output VGA-0 --right-of LVDS

There's probably a better way to automagically do it, but this works great for me.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

The main reason I'm using Ubuntu right now is because the Windows XP installation won't recognize my sata disks. I reallly don't want to go through the effort of getting a floppy disk, finding another computer with a floppy drive to download the drivers (my laptop doesn't have a floppy drive either), then obtaining and connecting a floppy drive to my computer JUST TO REINSTALL.
The live cd installation is a brilliant idea because even if you have some sort of new alien technology connected to your computer, you can download the required drivers and stuff prior to installation.

Re:Newbie Question

[Falstius]

Same virtual screen ('Virtual 2800 1050' in xorg.conf), in /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsetup :
xrandr --output VGA-0 --mode 1280x1024
xrandr --output VGA-0 --right-of LVDS

I had seen similar advice before but assumed since my monitors were different resolutions it wouldn't work, but it works fine (except that suddenly my title and desktop fonts are twice as large). Cool.

ThinkWiki has a good writeup of the steps to automate this, and tie it in to your function keys:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Xorg_RandR_1.2

Re:Newbie Question

[Klucki]

I have a xp system here , that the base install is at least 4 years old. ALL of the software thats running on it ( that I know of ( cant discount the fact that it MIGHT have a virus ) ) was installed right after the os install.

Why would a system that isnt fucked have its boot time increase ??

The whole 'boot in an hour' thing was an exaggeration (obviously). Actually re-reading that post I must have sounded like a troll.

The point was, in my own experience windows gets quickly fucked when you add/remove lots of programs and games, something that is inevitable over so much time.

If you dont install stupid shit on your system , it will boot just fine.

True, but your average Joe Dumbshit has iTunes, Quicktime, Nero etc, doesn't defrag and would have no idea what msconfig even is.

Re:Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that hard. You just add one line to your xorg.conf (something like "Virtual 2048 768" to the Display Subsection of your Screen section). Then you do a `xrandr --output VGA-0 --left-of DVI-0'.

Of course!

Re:Newbie Question

[skiman1979]

The entire Ubuntu installation, configuration, and applying all updates takes less then 1/2 hr (no, I'm not exaggerating, try it) and is finished while Windows XP is still formatting the disk.

Absolutely. I play a windows-based MMORPG called Silkroad Online in Linux. About a month ago, I was trying to get Silkroad to run in Gentoo, but I was having difficulty. So one morning, I decided to try Ubuntu. The whole process took about 90 minutes: 1. log into Gentoo 2. Browse to ubuntu.com 3. Download Ubuntu ISO 4. Burn Ubuntu ISO to a CD 5. Reboot to that CD 6. Install Ubuntu in a separate partition (keeping Gentoo) 7. Update Ubuntu 8. Install nVIDIA drivers 9. Install WINE 10. Configure WINE 11. Install Silkroad and update it. 12. Log into Silkroad. Not a single reboot required. I know Windows would have taken a LOT longer with all the reboots and everything required.

Lots o' New Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

But nobody would mistake this for a lean mean Linux machine. It's Vista Lite

kubuntu?

[RiotingPacifist]

and what about kubuntu users?

most of the features seam gnome centric. use KDE fans make up ~30% of the *buntu userbase

Re:kubuntu?

[Kjella]

KDE4. No more KDE3, if you want that stick with hardy. So if you have already made the jump with KDE4 packages on hardy I'd guess "not that much", if you haven't well better read up on all the news in KDE4.

Re:kubuntu?

[kesuki]

kubuntu 8.10 is coming along too, i've got the beta running, because the 8.04.1 update hosed my system. broke the x.org server, sigh.

8.10 kubuntu although still in beta has been pretty stable, there was one program that crashed on me, but didn't affect me, and there is an annoying bug with trying to configure the ethernet manually using the 'tray icon' (it won't ask for a password, and the ethernet can't be configured without a password) although, it seems like that icon is mysteriously gone today (there were some 27 updates today) plasmoids are really cool, they let you put useful widgets anywhere on the desktop, on the system bar, etc. but there aren't very many plasmoids right now.

Re:kubuntu?

[marco.antonio.costa]

plasmoids are really cool

Man I totally agree. Incinerate and Hypnotize Big Daddy are my favorites, what's yours? :)

Re:kubuntu?

[Artifakt]

I'm running in Kubuntu 8.04 - I just added what KDE4 files I could using adept literally yesterday, and rebooted to it to try it out, then went back to 3.5.
Biggest issues I saw:
1. When you say there aren't many plasmoids yet, its an understatement. A lot of the useful desktop applets, i.e. local weather, haven't been added yet. There's just about nothing in the way of marginally useful but neat applets such as moon phase converted to plasmoids. You could use a third party applet program until more stuff gets integrated in KDE, but you can do that with 3.5, and there's already at least 2 good ones to choose from.
2. Dual desktop support is limited - I couldn't extend the taskbar across both monitors. Having more applets/plasmoids might drive this feature, and having more space available in the taskbar might drive the plasmoids feature. (Although as I understand it, the real point of plasmoids is to be able to put these tiny programs anywhere and not just in the bar, so maybe not). Not having either just yet makes me think it might be quite some time before there's progress.
3. A lot of the fine tweaks are disabled. If you like being able to do things such as independently set the width of your taskbar hiding buttons and whether there is one at each end of the bar or not, again you'll have to wait and hope somebody gets to that, or bone up on your coding. I don't see all of the fine tweaks making it into the next 6 monthly release, or even a year out.

Re:kubuntu?

[Risen888]

With regards to #1, you can run SuperKaramba applets and Screenlets as Plasmoids. The weather and moon phase Plasmoids do exist but you have to go to kde-look.org and install them yourself. But I must say that I am distressed by the lack of enthusiasm that applet developers have so far displayed toward Plasma. You're right that that list isn't as long as it should be.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

This forced upgrade to KDE4 caused me to abandon KDE altogether, unfortunately KDE4 is just too much of a regression to KDE2 for me to continue to bother with it.

Re:kubuntu?

[quantumphaze]

I'm running in Kubuntu 8.04

Unfortunately 8.04 uses KDE 4.0, which is the one people complained about for being buggy and lacking basic features. I installed it too and the desktop itself is glitched up with the lower 3/4 of the background covering the icons.

Try KDE 4.1 that is on the 8.10 RC. It should be a lot more usable. Better yet try out another distro that is more KDE centric like Mandriva or OpenSUSE who implement many tweaks to better the KDE experience.

Re:kubuntu?

[EvilIdler]

Yeah, KDE4 still lacks a lot of features to be considered complete. A friend of mine is bitching about plasmoids he wants to use, but are not in any public SVN. Not all the great software has been recompiled for KDE4 (and it will take some rewriting to work).

KDE3 is a more complete desktop. If it's been forced out, Kubuntu is no longer usable.

Re:kubuntu?

[fwarren]

Just as well clue everyone in. PearsonComputing are hosting their own deb repository for KDE 3.5 in Intrepid.

I fully expect the slashdot effect to kick in by November 1, 2008. I am positive that the repository will shit the bed when thousands of Kubuntu users who finaly see that their cam is supported in Intrepid running a 2.6.27 and still want KDE 3.5. Hardy won't cut it or them. Ubuntu will not have published a 2.6.27 Kernel for Hardy. They will still want 2.6.27 AND KDE 3.5.

I am set, already have my wifes Acer One on Intrepid in Xubuntu and KDE 3.5 added. As for me, it does not matter I run fluxbox or xfce. Besides, I am alrady running 2.6.27 with Hardy.

I will further add. When I do switch to Intrepid in a few months. I will probably use Linux Mint's Fluxbox or XFCE edition. Gives me a better looking desktop and I don't even have to spend an hour downloading codecs to get video codes, mp3 and flash working.

Re:kubuntu?

[CyDharttha]

Here's your best bet for KDE4.1.2 on 8.04.1:

http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.1.2

Real painless, and a great desktop experience afterwards (IMO).

Re:kubuntu?

[westyvw]

I would forget Ubuntu if you like KDE. I would go with Sidux. Its a faster install, and a faster platform as well. You will be getting Debian Sid, but using the SMXI script to do the updates (as often as you want to), its been fairly painless, and is fun to get new stuff daily.

Re:kubuntu?

[Artifakt]

Thanks for the tip - it might speed up my going to KDE4.

print me

[Anonymous Coward]

print me

http://www.maximumpc.com/print/4018

Re:print me

[Whiteox]

Thank you AC for being ontopic.

PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[Doc Ruby]

We can also expect the PowerPC distro to fall further behind, unless the outside community helps the ubuntu-cell project, which has taken over from the main Ubuntu project (run by Canonical,Inc) in maintaining that architecture's distro. Which means not just PS3 Ubuntu, but also PPC ubuntu on other platforms, including rack servers and workstations, and embedded PPCs that might use a stripped-down downstream distro (but benefit from Ubuntu's APT repos), or any other Cell machines, from workstations to supercomputers.

If you've got a PPC machine, please try installing the current ubuntu-cell snapshot, as the project explains. At the very least you can file bug reports. If you can, you can patch some bugs. That's why the source is open, after all. And what the community is really for: not just getting free SW, but giving something back so everyone can get some free SW, including you.

Re:PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[JackieBrown]

Not be be a fanboy, but you can use Debian for a PPC supported distro.

Re:PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[Tubal-Cain]

Here

Re:PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[Doc Ruby]

As I said, PS3 Ubuntu is a community distro. There is a more recent version than the 07.10 version, but they're all community now, which is why I'm promoting the community here. Just pointing people at the binary that the community is maintaining is a circular null reference.

Re:PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[CronoCloud]

Sorry Doc, I got YDL 6 on my PS3. I came "this close" to choosing PS3 Ubuntu, but decided to go with the one that was Redhatty (since I had used SCEfoo's wacky kondara-ized RedHat on the PS2), and that had corporate backing. Now if I ever get another PS3, I'd probably try out PS3 Ubuntu on that.

Are the PS3 Ubuntu forums getting a lot of folk who are new to Linux? (heck might as well check myself) Looks like it.

I'm a moderator over at the YDL forums myself. I Ought to sign up to the psubuntu forums, looks like there's some nice newbie information we can borrow. :-)

Re:PowerPC Ubuntu Help

[Doc Ruby]

I'm not so sure about the Ubuntu.com PS3 forums' median experience level. But beware the PSUbuntu.com forums: they're really "Ubuntu is a free PS3 game to collect" bunch.

If you can help get a 2.6.27 kernel to boot Ubuntu on PS3, you could drop a line in the Ubuntu.com PS3 forums, or that ubuntu-cell maillist, and return the favor of "collaborating" on PS3 Linux.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you've found a bug. Did you report it? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/

Been usin'

[jadedoto]

I've been running Intrepid for a while... There are some things (such as the lack of a patch for ASUS laptops with >3GB RAM + NVIDIA cards) I'm missing... But otherwise, the Darkroom theme is pretty nice (I actually ditched my custom theme for it), and I love the new Network Manager. I think it's a nice step forward. Plugdev seems to be a little buggy, as the Anonymous Coward stated, but that's not necessarily an Ubuntu problem (nor is that patch in the kernel...). But Intrepid is a nice release already.

What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[jdb2]

I recently upgraded my Kubuntu 8.04 install to 8.10 and although there are many new features, specifically the main one being KDE 4.1.x, I experienced constant segfaults, lock-ups, and crashes, mostly associated in some way with KDE4 . Also, there were the "little" bugs , a multitude of minor but very annoying UI glitches. So, I went back to my old 8.04 install. I don't see how they could have managed to fix all the above problems in just a few weeks.

I'm sticking to 8.04 until I hear otherwise.

jdb2

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[jdb2]

For the grammar Nazi's ;) : s/are/were/ ; s/bugs ,/bugs :/

jdb2

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[kesuki]

weird, i've only had one application crash on kubuntu 8.10 beta, then again i only installed it on wednesday.

and there are tons of updates every day, something like 30 or so a day minimum. if you've got systems that are crashing, you should at least find a scratch drive, and report all the bugs you can find. they can't make it better if people aren't reporting bugs.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[RiotingPacifist]

I tried the alpha to test it but i was told it was too buggy to bother reporting stuff and the only fix i found was pointless because they couldnt update the versions of anything after the feature freeze.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are using Kubuntu, not a serious distribution.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Anonymous Coward]

The grammar Nazis would also mention that you don't use apostrophes to create plurals.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Daengbo]

For the real grammar Nazis: s/Nazi's/Nazis

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Jon_S]

Yeah, I'd really like to stick with KDE 3.5 KDE 4 just doesn't seem like it offers enough to risk the hassles of such a huge change.

Now Ubuntu 8.04 is a LTS release, but Kubuntu 8.04 isn't, and I understand why (KDE 3.5 support from KDE will be nonexistent 3 years from now). I can't seem to find any info as to whether it will be possible to continue to grab 8.04 updates through 2011 while sticking with KDe 3.5. I mean, most of the distro is *not* the desktop environment stuff. It is the kernel, GNU utils, X server, apache, samba, etc. etc. Stuff that has nothing to do with the desktop environment.

Am I going to be able to get all the updates to these non-KDE applications through the LTS period of 3 years?

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[anon mouse-cow-aard]

I upgraded my myth server last week and my laptop this morning. It works very well for me. nothing crashes. everything works better than before. got wobbly windows (KDE 4.1) which seemed pointless to me, but I actually really like it. looking forward to 9.04 having the cube and cylinder effects.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Bambi Dee]

We're using the same repositories as non-K Ubuntu 8.04 so I'd think so. Of course "all the updates" will be bug/security related except for what makes it into the (unsupported) backports. So I've started poking around getdeb.net more (and the Intrepid repositories for some stuff). Can't really go to 8.10 if there's no real-time kernel. Not interested in destroying everything in a patching adventure right now.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[jdb2]

LOL. I didn't even see that. ( Damn my fingers! ) Seems the communications uplink from my eyes to my brain and the communications downlink from my brain to my fingers are malfunctioning. ;) ( I swear my hands have a mind of their own... hmmmm..... that could be a multiple entendre)

P.S. You missed s/4\.1\.x,/4\.1\.x \./ ;)

jdb2

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[jdb2]

And Captain Obvious would mention that your statement is indicative of a Troll as you'd have to be a moron to think I didn't know such a basic thing, not to mention your ignorance of the other the 99% of my prose that contains correct grammar, and the fact that this was obviously a typo. Get a life. And by the way, one of my areas of study is Linguistics.

jdb2

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[_ivy_ivy_]

It's almost like it is still in beta, and not due to be released until the end of the month...

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Anonymous Coward]

I upgraded to 8.10 and had my KDE3 replaced with KDE4... My experience was similar to yours, I hesitantly decided to drop KDE altogether and try to make a go of using Gnome. I'm not happy with it compared to my old KDE3, but since that's not a viable option anymore its what I'll have to use going forward. KDE4 is not ready for the masses who used KDE3, probably won't be until KDE5 the way things look.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why upgrade a stable installation? Test whatever you have to using desktop virtualization like virtualbox before making the switch permanent.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[wild_berry]

If your video device can support it, the graphical glitches can be helped a lot (but not entirely cured) by adding a line:

Option "AccelMethod" "EXA"

to the Devices section of your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file. Or you can go through SystemSettings -> Desktop to disable Desktop Effects

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[dotancohen]

Also, there were the "little" bugs , a multitude of minor but very annoying UI glitches.

These tons of "little things" add up fast, which is why I am sticking with KDE 3.5 (and therefore Ubuntu 8.04) as well. Here, just the bugs that I am involved with:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kdebase/+bug/258609
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kdebase/+bug/258609
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kdepim/+bug/258613
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/200158
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/124406
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-meta/+bug/150333
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-kde4-meta/+bug/229804
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/232046
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-kde4-meta/+bug/257681
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meta-kde4/+bug/244228
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/+bug/258611
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdeutils/+bug/258612
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meta-kde/+bug/289440
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-meta/+bug/281834

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[CyDharttha]

I haven't been able to try 8.10 yet, but thankfully this didn't happen to me on 8.04.1 + KDE4.1.2. It's running on my desktop at work, where I don't logout or reboot for weeks, possibly months.

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[not-my-real-name]

For the real grammar Nazis: s/Nazi's/Nazis

For the regular expression Nazis, you missed the closing "/"

Re:What about Kubuntu 8.10?

[Daengbo]

Hehe. Indeed.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[jadedoto]

That doesn't make sense... To resize a partition it needs to be unmounted... Are you sure you're doing it right?

Windows apps

[zymano]

Should include Wine. People want their games and some apps to work on linux.

I am more a small kernel fan like minix. Linix kenel is way too huge.

Re:Windows apps

[PunkOfLinux]

What the fuck does that have to do with WINE? O.o'

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[rugatero]

Personally, I've never liked installing from a liveCD. Not sure why - maybe I somehow feel that it's more 'complete' - but I've always preferred a dedicated installer disc.

I think it was a troll for the moderators.

[khasim]

#1. As you mentioned, you need to unmount a partition to modify it.

#2. "...the garbage the LiveCD left on your drive."
But the LiveCD does not leave anything on your drive.

#3. "...because the liveCD requires the NTFS partition to be mounted..."
But the LiveCD does not require that any partitions be mounted.

I think that it was just a troll and one of the moderators did not know any better and mod'ed it up.

Re:I think it was a troll for the moderators.

[mackyrae]

Bullshit. Neither Ubiquity (the actual installation application) nor the live cd need the NTFS drive to run.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[Kjella]

If I've understood it correctly (I didn't use that option) it'll mount the file system, move the data on the filesystem together, shrink the filesystem, unmount the filesystem then shrink the partition. You can't just go chopping off a part of a partition, everything would break.

What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[Anonymous Coward]

It broke my sound settings and bluetooth settings. Some Python libraries started to fight and it broke pgdesigner/gambas.

Upgrading Ubuntu is far from as safe as upgrading with a windows service pack.

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[ricegf]

I never upgrade Windows OR Linux - I reinstall both on a clean partition.

I have two partitions, for the current and previous install respectively. When it's time to upgrade, I copy my user data from previous to current; reformat previous and install the new OS there; and flip partitions in the boot loader.

That way, if the new install isn't all I'd hoped, I can easily boot into the previous partition from the grub menu. And I don't have to worry about a Windows or Linux upgrade almost working (yes, I've had problems with both).

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[aronschatz]

Hmm...

I have /home on a separate partition and I always do a clean Linux install.

I don't wipe my /home partition and once everything is installed, all my settings and data are there with a brand new shiny system.

Don't get me wrong. I've gone through plenty of fresh installs and now certain things don't work correctly and I'll have to flush out my /~ dir soon enough :(.

My way is much easier than yours. You can easily go back to the old version by installing it again.

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hardly compare upgrading to a new Ubuntu RELEASE with "upgrading with a windows service pack."

A service pack is a set of Operating System updates. XP SP1 was not a new release of XP.

You might be better off, for instance, comparing upgrading Ubuntu to, say, upgrading from Win2k to WinXP, or even WinXP to Vista. Oh, btw, those are riddled with problems much greater than "broke my sound settings and bluetooth settings".

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[azgard]

Is that wise? What about the configuration files? You will configure every program again?

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[laddiebuck]

Not to be a fanboy, but upgrading is quite painless with Debian. It's one of the project's goals.

When I switched to Linux, I tried out various distros for about a year to see which one I liked. When I switched to Debian, I didn't look back -- I now use it for all my hardware.

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[CSMatt]

Why not just have a separate /home partition and store your personal stuff there? Use partimage on a LiveCD to backup the root partition, install the new OS, and keep the compressed image around if the new OS doesn't work well. Unless you have a small amount of data, I can't see how two megapartitions where both software and data are stored could possibly be convenient.

Re:What I noted about upgrading from 8.04 to 8.10

[ricegf]

Well, I've replied to this twice, and both replies were lost. I hate being away from home and a good Internet connection.

Your suggestion is a good one, of course, but it has some downsides. One is that an application whose configuration data is not backwards compatible will be unusable should I boot to the previous OS. Another is that, to boot to the previous OS, I would have to compress the current OS and reload the previous OS; with my preferred approach, either image is just a grub option away. I also view each 6 month's OS upgrade (I use Ubuntu) as an opportunity to try new configuration settings; and re-installing applications in Linux is so trivially easy, I rather enjoy it.

But I do appreciate the suggestion on a very reasonable alternative.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[LingNoi]

Unless there is a rootkit in an ubuntu or debian package you're not making a lot of sense.

Even if there were you got the name and email address of the people who made the package and also the people who were responsible for checking the package.

You can even take that package and compare it to the original upstream version using diff.

You are just talking bullshit. Hence why you're probably posting anonymous, because you know you're talking nonsense.

The new wallpaper

[Anonymous Coward]

makes it look like someone has headbutted their monitor.

The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Cordath]

Proper Bluray media support.

I don't care if I have to pay for it. I just want to be able to play all Bluray media, including stuff with only HD audio codecs that are currently unsupported in Linux.

Now, I know some of you think this is unnecessary fluff. However, if Linux wants to compete with Windows it has to tackle the crucial stumbling blocks that force people to continue using Windows. Linux has lots of great home theater software and many aspirations towards filling that niche, but they amount to a hill of beans without support for all HD media.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care if I have to pay for it.

Heretic!

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Mascot]

I see a few stumbling blocks between Blu-ray and Linux being licensed to play it.

1. The distro would likely have to rewrite most of the driver architecture to support the required media path protection.

2. It would almost certainly have to go closed source.

Somehow I don't see that happening.

Personally, I'm not touching Blu-ray with a ten foot pole due to the DRM. DVDs were bad enough, but at least they would never tell me "sorry, I don't like your TV so I won't let you watch me". Once region free DVD players became the norm, I was ok with spending money on them. As for Blu-ray.. Until they are willing to sell me a product I feel comfortable buying, I'll enjoy HD content via mkv on my Tvix.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Kjella]

It's a problem, but I'm not sure it's a technical one. Even though AACS is trivially broken by AnyDVD, Cyberlink probably doesn't get a HD license for Linux because of piracy BS. They do sell a regular DVD player in the Ubuntu Store if you didn't know. On the open source side there's some progress going on, but it's slow work and to be honest I don't think there are that many Linux PCs with a Blu-Ray drive. But there are interesting developments going on, hardware acceleration is coming soon to ATI cards. If we want to talk multimedia, I'd much rather get rid of flash.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[/dev/trash]

you said Ubuntu and then went into a rant about Linux. Troll much?

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Directrix1]

Does VLC not support this yet?

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Jorophose]

If you don't mind making backups of your bluray discs, I think K3B et al can burn BD-Rs.

In that case, get yourself a copy of SlySoft AnyDVD HD. I'm hoping SlySoft will eventually work with Wine to get this running on linux (I don't think they'll make a real port any time soon) because it's totally worth the money. A buddy of mine bought it a while back after buying AnyDVD. Stuff's great; especially AnyDVD, because some DVD players are peculiar (although, I think it's more because most people have started using DVD+R and that might be the real problem...) but it seems to work with them anyway.

AnyDVD HD won't let you play blu-rays straight, though. I don't think anything will at this point. However, I'm hoping that if you broke the encryption, you can play them straight off the disc with mplayer. With ATI hopefully bringing a working UVD2 with the next catalyst release (or mplayer/ffmpeg/gstreamer/? patching, because they might have released already), things are really rocking for linux. Then it's just a matter of getting the PVR-2250 to work for Linux, and you've got a Godly mythbox =).

(DumpHD works great and is Java but you need the keys. They can be found, but yeah you're stuck looking for them when newer discs come out. However, might beat paying/cough for SlySoft's AnyDVD and then the HD upgrade (sadly HD doesn't come seperately). I think it can do BD+ just fine. And it's Java so it works for linux right now...)

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[catxk]

I recently bought my first* and last 3 DVDs ever and when I popped in Boondock Saints in my laptop connected by HDMI to my HDTV, VLC crashed, MPC went black and Windows Media Player said it couldn't play the movie on this device.

But it's ok, I got good speeds of the Bay that night.

*Why I did this is another story

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of support for playing high-def DRM'ed content is what's going to end up killing MythTV (and linux based solutions in general) as a viable HTPC setup.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, Sony, Microsoft, the DMCA and the RIAA and MPAA make that pretty fucking difficult.

It's time to ask for some changes in law. You shouldn't be able to keep people from watching the movies they've bought on whatever they please.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It doesn't.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[EvilIdler]

The problem with AnyDVD is that it's more of a driver-level solution, so I don't think it'll work very well with Wine. There would have to be support from the Wine folks to make AnyDVD run, not the other way around, just like Transgaming have their own closed-source patches to support various forms of copy protection which works at the lower levels in Windows.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[jvkjvk]

Proper Bluray media support.

I don't care if I have to pay for it. I just want to be able to play all Bluray media, including stuff with only HD audio codecs that are currently unsupported in Linux.

Now, I know some of you think this is unnecessary fluff. However, if Linux wants to compete with Windows it has to tackle the crucial stumbling blocks that force people to continue using Windows. Linux has lots of great home theater software and many aspirations towards filling that niche, but they amount to a hill of beans without support for all HD media.

Agreed. This is actually a pointer to a serious problem. It is the year of the linux desktop, except it's two years ago's desktop. Does Blueray "just work" on Windows XP (well, apart from the DRM...)? Mac OSX? There will be another update to some other subsystem. Let's hope it has a standard interface or Linux will once again be struggling to be able to use the tech. It's not likely at this point to be open hardware or specs, but royalty encumbered. I read another poster saying that no one on the linux side could even buy a license to distribute. Perhaps in 10 years it will be different...

I hope this doesn't sound like a troll, because It's not meant to be. I run a raid backup server at home using ubuntu atm and i've used linux for a while now, but my interfaces at work are windows and at home mac now.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[bvimo]

You shouldn't be able to keep people from playing the games they've bought on whatever they please.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[rzei]

According to Wikipedia's page it'd seem the following codecs need to be supported:

• mpeg-2
• mpeg-4 avc
• vc-1

VC-1 is Microsoft's shit all over again, and I don't remember libavcodec supporting it yet, if ever.

Even when you've got support for all the X codecs required by BD you'll still have to crack the encryption (you bought it right? ... instead of downloading a hdrip).

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

HA!

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[CSMatt]

Let me know when you've managed to talk Sony into releasing BD+ for Ubuntu.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[guruevi]

Why exactly? I haven't seen a single computer with Blu-Ray movie support and even when assembling a new computer, the upgrade costs 250 or more to add on. There aren't very consumers that want it and even less that use it.

It would of course be nice for Linux to support all types of media but I am pretty sure you can read the data of the discs already with the current implementation. HD media on most (if not all) blu-ray discs is encumbered with DRM anyway which is illegal to play. The only signal to give to companies distributing such media is to NOT BUY IT in order for better/free open source programs to support it.

There is several HD media supported for Linux, use it instead.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when you've managed to talk Sony into releasing BD+ for Windows and OS X.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Proper Bluray media support...
Now, I know some of you think this is unnecessary fluff. However, if Linux wants to compete with Windows it has to tackle the crucial stumbling blocks...

We'll get right on that, Mr. Kutagari.

Re:The one Ubuntu feature I want most:

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you build computers? Walmart? Maybe not that many Walmart customers want Bluray...

It's illegal to circumvent AACS to play Bluray in the U.S.. Not where I live. Why should I have to abide by U.S. laws if I'm not a U.S. citizen, especially when they're retarded laws?

Finally, last I checked nobody was selling legal copies of movies in a true HD format that Linux could handle. (i.e. You can keep your icky "HD"-on-demand overcompressed crap.)

hopefully 3d acceleration on the 945gm

[Anonymous Coward]

because it was seriously fucked in hardy with the ubuntu forums confirming it.

yea, i ended up going back to XP.

Re:hopefully 3d acceleration on the 945gm

[mackyrae]

Uh, what? 3D has almost always worked fine on 945GM. Intel started making 945GMs with a different PCI ID early this year, and those didn't have 3D in Hardy until I think June, maybe July, but a simple one-liner update fixed that.

Re:hopefully 3d acceleration on the 945gm

[anon mouse-cow-aard]

my 945G based laptop runs fine under kubuntu8.10
using KDE 4.1 with fully wobbly windows. I tried
glxgears and got 736.569 FPS, which doesnÂt wow me, but it seems to work OK.

Re:hopefully 3d acceleration on the 945gm

[schnikies79]

I never could get it to work on my dell e1405.

The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[Anonymous Coward]

...someone's in the process of cleaning dog shit from a floor.

Re:The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[Daimanta]

and have the dog shit coincidentally spread out in the form of an (intrepid?) Ibex.

Re:The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu Christian Edition will feature dog shit spread out in the form of Jesus.

Re:The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[TheQuantumShift]

Which kind of describes the feeling I just had trying to get my wifi working (the trick to getting atheros wifi working is to disable support for atheros wifi apparently) Of course i was bound to be irritated as I had to hold down the spacebar for 20 seconds during the boot process to get it to work (It has something to do with those awesome drivers for atheros) I didn't do any investigation, but I have a feeling the old madwifi and the new madwifi (now in the kernel) are both attempting to work out of the box. I didn't bother finding out, and wiped the partition. The wifi trouble along with the nvidia trouble (never was before, but now it just doesn't work) along with the pulse audio tomfoolery make me long for plain old debian. Or I could just run the os that came with the laptop and not have to tinker. But alas, I'm a geek, and a tinkerin' I shall go...

Re:The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[kv9]

and have the dog shit coincidentally spread out in the form of an (intrepid?) Ibex.

more like Intrepid Goatsex if you ask me.

Re:The 8.10 wallpaper looks like...

[AttillaTheNun]

Insert obligatory Elvis sighting here.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[F1re]

No point. I have posted about 5 bugs and nothing gets fixed.

Ekiga isnt new

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect information up there, they seem to have not noticed Ekiga has been included for a long time!

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[kesuki]

there are rootkit detectors, like http://www.chkrootkit.org/ which is in the synaptic's database, but not the adept one, because the adept installer is still beta quality. at least syanptic is in the adept db because it would be a pain to get software in linux if i had to use adept from kde4... *cough* i was forced to go kubuntu 6.10 beta by the 8.04.1 patch that hosed my x.org config.

as far as credit card theft goes, there are some major issues now, because for 2 some years, 'debian' and thus ubuntu, had a nasty flaw in the 'secure' connection software, so bad they made a wireshark plug in that lets you decrypt secure transmission to any affected debian/ubuntu system. the flaw is patched in debian an ubuntu, but there are still could be compromised servers running on the net. especially if a server wasn't hardened but was feature frozen based on the effected versions. if the company that had the servers set up as a one time deal, they might not even know they're affected.

New wallpaper

[guyminuslife]

Is it just me, or does the new Ubuntu wallpaper look like a skull?

Disclaimer: I give really messed up answers on Rorschach tests.

Re:New wallpaper

[mackyrae]

I thought it was a splotch at first, but it's the ibex's head and horns

Re:New wallpaper

[L0stm4n]

I thought it looked like a coffee stain at first. Then I realized it was a stylized ibex

Re:New wallpaper

[moonbender]

Yep, I thought it looked a bit like a skull, too. And with a look of dried (coffee? blood?) stains on a floor. Really creepy wallpaper.

Bluray == laserdisk.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just download 720p / 1080p divx like the rest of the universe.

Re:Bluray == laserdisk.

[Anonymous Coward]

divx lol
l2x264

Very little apparently

[dlevitan]

I'm using Kubuntu 8.04 right now. The article claims "The last six months of development have brought tons of new functionality that make running Linux easier for all users". I hardly see anything awe-inspiring. Here's my perspective as a current KDE user:

1. GNOME: I see nothing revolutionary or even exciting here. Ekiga is their picture for this. That's definitely a niche app. Better bluetooth support and resolution controls are good I guess. I've had the on KDE for a few years now I believe.

2. X.org: Hotplugging mice/keyboards "works now"? Well, it works now for me with 8.04. They must've had to dig deep to find something like that. So does resolution switching and xrandr support for multiple displays (which is a huge deal, but has already been around for a year).

3. New kernel: always good for my laptop which typically get a few more things running more smoothly with each kernel release

4. Network manager: Anyway who has a 3G connection probably has a laptop. And laptop's need network profile. I need one for work and one for my apartment. Ubuntu doesn't support these and this article doesn't mention anything new. Everything listed is minor improvements. Personally, I have to use wicd, which is decent, but isn't quite as well integrated as networkmanager.

5. Guest account: I see no point for this. Either you trust the person or you don't. And you can create your own guest account if you really want to and switch to it. At least I can do that from KDE. I suppose one click is nicer than click, type in guest/guest, and log in. So maybe a worthwhile feature, though hardly earth-shattering

6. Flash video: Eh, what was stopping things from working before? I assume this just means version 10 is supported. Which is great, but 64 bit support is still lacking so I'll still have problems with it. No, not an ubuntu problem, but I can complain anyway.

7. Secret hidden folders: Just use truecrypt. This doesn't even encrypt your home directory based on the article. And you need to go to the terminal to set it up?

8. Config-less x.org: Now this is nice. Hopefully it'll work well. I haven't had to use an xorg config file for a few years now beyond the default, though to support multiple monitors I've had to include a virtual screen line. Hopefully this will fix that problem.

Personally, I'm more intereted in Kubuntu dropping KDE3 in 8.10. KDE4 can be set up well, but it certainly doesn't support everything that's in KDE3 and still isn't quite as smooth (though I actually like it a lot).

Re:Very little apparently

[Chlorus]

2. X.org: Hotplugging mice/keyboards "works now"?

What's truly sad is that Windows 98 had that feature, and it took the Xorg people so long to implement it. Its XFree86 all over again.

Re:Very little apparently

[MenTaLguY]

It's XFree86 still. XFree86 left the codebase and architecture in such a mess that it's taking this long for Xorg to get this stuff straightened out in the codebase they inherited.

Re:Very little apparently

[mackyrae]

TrueCrypt makes an encrypted OS, though, doesn't it? eCryptFS lets you just have one encrypted directory. The way it's being used is that people can put their ~/.evolution as a symlink to one inside ~/Private/ so most things aren't encrypted (thereby using less resources) while the necessary things are. Hardy had config-free X too. Don't know what you mean about network profile. NM does 3G now though. Supposedly it works (but I don't have the hardware to test). The guest account is generated each time it is called with a temporary drive, so the current guest can't see what the last guest did, and so on. There's also no password, and it keeps you from having an account sitting around. It's not a good idea to have a guest account sitting there, because usually the password sucks (guest, password, password01) more than "real" passwords, and so it becomes an easy entry point. Once an intruder is through that door, they just need local privilege escalation--something much easier to achieve than getting into the computer when a strong password is used for every user.

Re:Very little apparently

[ethana2]

7. Secret hidden folders: Just use truecrypt. You don't think we've tried that?! This feature literally had me dancing for joy. I had to look really gay, but it was worth it. I've been wanting an OS with this feature as long as I can remember, even back when I used windows.

Re:Very little apparently

[dlevitan]

TrueCrypt makes an encrypted OS, though, doesn't it? eCryptFS lets you just have one encrypted directory. The way it's being used is that people can put their ~/.evolution as a symlink to one inside ~/Private/ so most things aren't encrypted (thereby using less resources) while the necessary things are.

Truecrypt creates a file somewhere on your drive. It even offers the feature to forget where it is. When you want access, you open truecrypt, point it to your file, and it mounts it onto a directory you select. Not as easy as an automaticly opening directory, but different. Also more secure.

Don't know what you mean about network profile. NM does 3G now though. Supposedly it works (but I don't have the hardware to test).

Network profiles means I come into my office, plug in my network cable, tell my laptop I'm in my office and it sets up the appropriate static IP address and the like. I go home, plug in my network cable, tell it I'm in my apartment and it looks for a DHCP server. Ideally, this would be extended to wireless networks as well i.e. I could tell the software "When if office mode, connect to wired network with this IP address, or if that's not available, then connect to this wireless network or this one" and when I'm home "Use dynamic address with wired network, or use this wireless network"

Re:Very little apparently

[mackyrae]

Ah ok, kind of like the thing in Network-Admin that sort of half-worked and took about 3 minutes to change locations?

Re:Very little apparently

[Seraphim_72]

Here's my perspective as a current KDE user:

Would a KooKie and a glass of warm milK make you feel better?

;)

Re:Very little apparently

[RiotingPacifist]

4. Network manager: Anyway who has a 3G connection probably has a laptop. And laptop's need network profile. I need one for work and one for my apartment. Ubuntu doesn't support these and this article doesn't mention anything new. Everything listed is minor improvements. Personally, I have to use wicd, which is decent, but isn't quite as well integrated as networkmanager.

A brainstorm suggestion regarding that it seams to be getting positive votes but not enough to get anything done yet.

shameless plug: other ideas of mine: GUI to show failed log in attempts renice the active program GUI tool to restart subsystems (make /etc/init.d/* easy for new users)

Re:Very little apparently

[Daengbo]

I wrote an article in April on Gnome's relative stability and lack of any real change. The road map for 2.26 looks even less Earth-shattering. The stuff that was actually really pretty new in 2.24 didn't make it into Intrepid, though. Empathy isn't the default IM client. Ekiga is at 2.0 instead of 3.0.

I think it's safe to say that we won't see anything really new until 3.0, and the developers are talking about making even that just about changes in the APIs.

The guest account, though, is pretty neat since it doesn't write anything to disk, unlike the guest accounts you and I have used for years. Log off, and it's gone. I don't even need to write a post-session script.

Re:Very little apparently

[dubz]

I agree. Kubuntu 8.10 will be better off with KDE3 as the default. But they should provide a readily accessible, one-click-away, KDE4 installer so that those who want to try bleeding edge can do so without too much trouble. Freedom of Choice is what makes Open Source what it is.

Re:Very little apparently

[bendodge]

7. Secret hidden folders: Just use truecrypt. This doesn't even encrypt your home directory based on the article. And you need to go to the terminal to set it up?

I wonder if this can be turned off. Perhaps it's just me, but this sounds almost like a ready-made rootkit for malicious programs/people. Visibility of everything is one of my top reasons for using Linux; I do not want binary hives of junk or folders of invisible stuff.

Re:Very little apparently

[jnnnnn]

Flash video

This actually makes Youtube usable. Flash before version 10 did not seem to use hardware acceleration on linux, making the video very choppy, even on good hardware.

Re:Very little apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

re: Flash, no 64-bit version is kinda lame, but Flash 9 crashed about 4 times a day (for me), inevitably taking the browser of choice with it. Flash 10 has removed this "feature", which is to say it actually works, which is to say I can safely enable it and Flash sites are now functional on Linux.

But I would be remiss if I didn't make a snarky comment on the following:

Does Nautilus still not have a "list view" option? Also, does it still (Thunar does this too, admittedly) hemorrage at random moments when confronted with NFTS partitions? Will gnome-power-management actually work this time, or will I have to once again remove it and install xscreensaver so my screen powers off after X minutes?

But I guess they're making progress, so they'll eventually get there. I await the new network manager with baited breath and with a pre-typed rant against it already copied to the clipboard.

Re:Very little apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

5. Guest account: I see no point for this. Either you trust the person or you don't. And you can create your own guest account if you really want to and switch to it. At least I can do that from KDE. I suppose one click is nicer than click, type in guest/guest, and log in. So maybe a worthwhile feature, though hardly earth-shattering

The reason is that so if you leave your desktop locked that someone else like a friend can still use it even if you are not around. It makes it so you can still leave your computer locked but still let others have limited access without needing to give them an account and another password to remember. I've made my own guest account for my roommates to use.

As for the question of why I lock anything at all... I don't want friends inadvertently stumbling over any financial stuff I leave open.

Re:Very little apparently

[EvilIdler]

Hotplugging keyboards and mice has worked fine for me as long as I've used Ubuntu. Has it really been a problem for that many until recently?

Re:Very little apparently

[EvilIdler]

Mac does network profiles one step better, though, so that's what Ubuntu should strive for (if it doesn't already - I don't have it on a laptop to test). Visit new wi-fi area, say yes to making an access point one of your preferred points, done. Next time you visit, it tries the last key automatically.

Re:Very little apparently

[jopsen]

It's an incremental upgrade...

4. Network manager: Anyway who has a 3G connection probably has a laptop. And laptop's need network profile. I need one for work and one for my apartment.

I think gnome's default network settings enables network profiles... But I certainly don't see a need for it... I just add the wireless networks I wan't to connect to and only one of them will be available at a time, problem solve... More complicated features would probably confuse endusers anyway...

8. Config-less x.org: Now this is nice. Hopefully it'll work well. I haven't had to use an xorg config file for a few years now beyond the default, though to support multiple monitors I've had to include a virtual screen line. Hopefully this will fix that problem.

Absolutely a nice feature... This have been scaring normal users for a long time. Now people doesn't have to touch it anymore...

Re:Very little apparently

[Eythian]

Does Nautilus still not have a "list view" option?

You mean that thing where you click on the menu that lets you pick the view (to the upper-right of the nautilus window) and choose 'view as list'? I presume they haven't taken that away.

Re:Very little apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

4. Network manager: Anyway who has a 3G connection probably has a laptop. And laptop's need network profile. I need one for work and one for my apartment. Ubuntu doesn't support these and this article doesn't mention anything new. Everything listed is minor improvements. Personally, I have to use wicd, which is decent, but isn't quite as well integrated as networkmanager.

As a laptop user with wlan, lan at multiple sites as well as a built-in 3g module, let me tell that the new network manager is absolutely perfect. It automagically configures everything for me, once properly setup (I bridged my wlan and ethernet connection by forcing the same MAC at one site where only one MAC can be assigned to me, and with 30 seconds of configuring it now works flawlessly). It might be that wicd works equally well, but I think the main point here is that now it's included by default. This network manager is really well made; only caveat is that I have yet to find out how to automaticly establish a VPN connection from selected sites.

5. Guest account: I see no point for this. Either you trust the person or you don't. And you can create your own guest account if you really want to and switch to it. At least I can do that from KDE. I suppose one click is nicer than click, type in guest/guest, and log in. So maybe a worthwhile feature, though hardly earth-shattering

I believe the point here is that you now don't have to do that manually. The feature comes from the SELinux world where the account is virtually created, heavily locked down (usually only allows a browser to run) and then removes all trails of the account once the guest logs out. This is a feature that would almost make me safe enough to use another Ubuntu user's laptop to pay my bills.

Personally, I'm more intereted in Kubuntu dropping KDE3 in 8.10. KDE4 can be set up well, but it certainly doesn't support everything that's in KDE3 and still isn't quite as smooth (though I actually like it a lot).

Yes, this is the exciting part of the Intrepid release. The betas have been buggy and many features lacking, not to mention the very sluggish performance. Gnome currently has a major lead to KDE4, enough to make me as a steady KDE user for 8 years make a temporary switch to gnome because stuff simply work better with gnome currently. It will be exciting to see what KDE4 brings when it becomes more mature and the performance issues have been resolved.

Re:Very little apparently

[phorm]

Just use truecrypt

Not sure about others, but I've never had much luck getting it to compile on either Debian or Ubuntu...

Re:Very little apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

4. Network manager: Anyway who has a 3G connection probably has a laptop. And laptop's need network profile. I need one for work and one for my apartment. Ubuntu doesn't support these and this article doesn't mention anything new. Everything listed is minor improvements. Personally, I have to use wicd, which is decent, but isn't quite as well integrated as networkmanager.

Network Manager 7 is in intrepid and does indeed support profiles. It can even do them based on the mac address that it connects to in a fully automatic way.

Re:Very little apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

8. Config-less x.org: Now this is nice. Hopefully it'll work well. I haven't had to use an xorg config file for a few years now beyond the default, though to support multiple monitors I've had to include a virtual screen line. Hopefully this will fix that problem.

Hardy's X.org already has this too. Saved my arse more than a few times...

Re:Very little apparently

[mr3038]

7. Secret hidden folders: Just use truecrypt. This doesn't even encrypt your home directory based on the article. And you need to go to the terminal to set it up?

At least the alternate install CD asked if I wanted to use "Private folder" and it was automatically setup by the time I logged in for the first time. The difference compared to truecrypt is that you don't need to decide the partition size or anything. The encrypted file system is mounted at $HOME/Private and it's actual contents are in $HOME/.private. Only the contents of the files are encrypted so the names of the files are readable always from the raw file system. The encryption is per file and seems to cause quite an overhead for small files. A text file with only a few bytes requires about 12KB of storage which has about 12KB of overhead. The real point is to have encryption for the contents of the files without needing to specify partitions before using the storage space.

Eclipse

[epine]

I wish Ubuntu would get their act together on Eclipse.

From http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/1265/

msarro wrote on the 25 Mar 08 at 01:50

This has almost 550 vote ups, more than just about anything else on this place, and yet according to launchpad this isn't even supposed to make the hardy release? C'mon guys, 3.3 is a year old, and 3.4 will be in testing shortly after hardy. Some of us like to have a scripted install so we can get ubuntu installed, run our shell script, come back an hour or two later and have everything installed. Yes, it can be downloaded and run from a folder, but we can do that with everything. So if that's the retort people are going to keep kicking back at us why are we even bothering to include apt?

My attempt to run Ganymede from a folder was unsuccessful. Maybe it was the AMD64 thing, I never figured it out, and I don't want to.

Ibex appears to be stuck at 3.2.2. That's Callisto from July 2006. If Jaunty remains stuck at 3.2 in April 2009, I'll begin to seriously wonder about things. Does July 2002 to June 2005 ring any bells with Ubuntu management?

I've read other threads which suggest that Fedora enjoys a small monopoly on the developers who are proficient at packaging Java applications.

[[Had some problems posting from a public terminal. Sorry if my repost ends up becoming a dup.]]

Re:Eclipse

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm running Ubuntu 8.04 AMD64 on a 4 GB Dell D830 laptop for work (company laptop), and successfully running Eclipse Ganymede from a folder. Only thing you need to do is use the correct Java 64bit version to run it - use the command line options, and manually set your command line in the desktop launcher.

Re:Eclipse

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing that is nice about gentoo. They put in the package ebuild (recipe) as soon as they can, but mark it MASKED (equivalent to testing, not save yet for the average user). If you need the new version desperately, you can override the blocking and install it anyway.

Re:Eclipse

[cr_nucleus]

In my experience, eclipse 64 (both 3.3 & 3.4) is so buggy and crashy that i reverted back to using 32 bit eclipse on a 32 bit jdk.

Glad to hear that it works for somebody.

BTW what jdk are you running it onto ?

Re:Eclipse

[tangent3]

I've been running Eclipse 3.4 no problems. When it comes to Eclipse, screw the repository. You will need to change your JVM from gcj to sun-java6-jdk, details here, then download the package from Eclipse, untar.gz and run the executable.

Re:Eclipse

[PunkOfLinux]

no. This changed a LONG time ago. It took *weeks* for KDE 4.1 to be in portage, and even then it was *still* masked.

I miss the old Gentoo, for the adventurous fucker in everyone :(

Re:Eclipse

[Anonymous Coward]

On AMD64, don't use either the sun-java JVM, or GCJ. Use OpenJDK. That will make the spontaneous Eclipse crashes stop (at least it did for me.)

Re:Eclipse

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys got Eclipse 3.3? Lucky bastards. Debian unstable is still on Eclipse 3.2!

Re:Eclipse

[Gazzonyx]

If you had problems, it might have been that you were running gjc. I always forget to rip out gjc when I do a centos install and I always realize it the first time I fire up Eclipse, it pegs the CPU and lags KDE. Same goes for the Java EE Red Hat/Centos/Fedora directory server. If you attempt to run any slightly complex Java apps on top of gjc, it *technically* works... but it doesn't, really.

< rant > This is another area where I like being a Slackware fanboy; RHEL/Centos/Fedora/SUSE all integrate the gjc sdk libs right in to the /usr hierarchy (and split the over the /usr/share, /usr/lib/, /etc) by default and leave you to try to use alternatives as a front end to your directory tree. They've got it setup as a symlink farm so that you can't really just relink without still having one pointing to the wrong library. I'm always a fan of putting stacks in /opt with a single symlink to each part of the stack - it just makes these issues that much more bearable when you come up against these issues.< /rant >

FWIW, I'd give 64 bit Eclipse a shot under a Sun or IBM JRE/SDK/JDK.

Re:Eclipse

[CBravo]

I had the same problem with java 6. I had to add some lines to my eclipse.ini:

-XX:CompileCommand=exclude,org/eclipse/core/internal/dtree/DataTreeNode,forwardDeltaWith
-XX:CompileCommand=exclude,org/eclipse/jdt/internal/compiler/lookup/ParameterizedMethodBinding,

Google some more if you want to find out why (I forgot).

Re:Eclipse

[thetoadwarrior]

Eclipse runs like a tired old pig anyway. Get Netbeans.

Re:Eclipse

[Anonymous Coward]

um.. I have 3.2, 3.3, and 3.4 lving happily on my amd64.

I then created a soft link from /usr/bin/eclipse to /usr/bin/eclipse-3.4

It's not that hard

=====================
3.4
#!/bin/sh /usr/lib/eclipse-3.4/eclipse

=====================
3.3
I copied the script that starts 3.2 and changed the paths to point towards 3.3's directory and changed the last block of code to:

exec "$INSTALL/eclipse" \
        -install "${INSTALL}" \
        ${CMDLINEARGS}

capcha: grandpa

Re:Eclipse

[fortuna]

I wish Ubuntu would get their act together on Eclipse.

watch this space:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eclipse/+bug/123064

Re:Eclipse

[moonbender]

I use both dozens of hours a week. They're pretty much eye to eye whilst slouching towards some common goal. Both really good IDEs, too, wouldn't want to work without them.

Re:Eclipse

[shutdown -p now]

Hm, maybe that's why Ubuntu is on 3.2, too?

Re:Eclipse

[lwsimon]

They renamed it "ArchLinux" :)

Re:Eclipse

[rzei]

Why don't you just go ahead and install the minimum java support (sun-java6-jdk i believe is the package's name)?

After that you can download eclipse binaries from their website, and run the binary from the directory! That's at least how I been doing my Java development on linux (kubuntu) for the past year.

Agreed, those packages don't work, but those seem a bit redundant. Eclipse does have it's own upgrading and addon system, there's really no need for a system wide installation!

If you screw something up, you just do a fresh install (unpack the .tar.gz). If you want to back up, or even better, transfer your whole eclipse distribution, you just tar your eclipse installation directory.

APT and dpkg are great tools, but as eclipse moves on with continiusly higher pace, and it's you the developer who wants to use it I believe you should be able to find a way around all the shelly stuff. Otherwise you could consider changing from Java to for example Visual Basic.

Not true- quit spreading rumors

[Anonymous Coward]

PowerPC releases from Ubuntu are continuing as normal. Get the latest here:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily-live/current/

Re:Not true- quit spreading rumors

[bobbocanfly]

As said above, these are community supported, so if you buy a Canonical support contract and use a PPC box, you won't be getting any support from them, you'll have to go hunt it down on the web.

Another big difference is that canonical maintained ports are *much* more of a priority when it comes to things like packages failing to build. If a package fails to build on i386 or amd64, it is classified as quite an important bug and normally fixed very quickly. If it fails to build on ppc or hppa, it will be shoved to the bottom of the queue, for the community $ARCH development team to pick it up. This happens with most of the obscure-architecture specific bugs, which often leads to them taking a *long* time to fix.

No Joystick Support

[Chlorus]

8.10 won't support joysticks, because of yet another bug in Xorg. http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?p=49721 But hey, we don't need that feature! We should just buy consoles anyways, because PCs aren't for gaming! Right? Guys?

Re:No Joystick Support

[Anonymous Coward]

correct, they are business tools.

Re:No Joystick Support

[bobbocanfly]

No, 8.10 will support joysticks if you either:

1) Work around it by editing xorg.conf: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=6023212&postcount=5

2) Wait for X.org to get their act together, fix *their* bug then the Ubuntu guys either backport it, or release it as an Intrepid update. Infact, the bug in Ubuntu is targetted to the "intrepid-updates" milestone, so as soon as Xorg manage to fix the bug, it will be a top priority to get uploaded to intrepid-updates

I've seen multiple people, in multiple forums jump on the bandwagon complaining that it should hold back the release, not bothering to read the guidelines on what makes a release critical bug (it cant be easily worked around or documented, which this most definately can)

Re:No Joystick Support

[LingNoi]

There's a fix on the thread you gave. I don't understand why you even posted the this because you must have already known there was a fix.. wtf is that about?

Re:No Joystick Support

[Chlorus]

There's a fix on the thread you gave. I don't understand why you even posted the this because you must have already known there was a fix.. wtf is that about?

Because, the question becomes, why the hell wasn't the fix integrated to begin with? Do they really expect casual users to figure that out?

Re:No Joystick Support

[gregbot9000]

your a business tool.

Re:No Joystick Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Ubuntu 8.10 is beta and they are in fact fixing your issue..

5)...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Find out that the resolution is wrong (Intel open SW controller!) and your Realtek GigE NIC does not work.
6) Spend few hours trying to resolve it.
7) Pop in a SUSE disk.
8) GOTO 1

No Exchange 2007/MAPI Connector

[devman]

While only tangentially related to Ubuntu. I've been following the OpenChange project and there work developing a MAPI plugin for Evolution. Unfortunately it has been pushed back to the GNOME 2.26 release which we will probably not see until Ubuntu 9.04.

This makes me a sad panda as one of the only things in the way of moving my workstation over to Linux is exchange access.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[kesuki]

whoops, meant '8.10' not 6.10 sigh.

True: Get a Clue

[Doc Ruby]

As I said, the Cell arch port is a community supported port of Ubuntu, not an officially supported one from Canonical:

We need developers! It's very early days for this community supported port and we need all the hands we can get to physically make the port stable and current.

The community is a real one that develops the port available from the ubuntu.com website. But it's community supported, not by the Canonical team, and they need developers. Just like I said.

So, Anonymous FUD Coward, take back your attempt to monkeywrench this community effort and scare off needed developers. You're exactly the opposite of what FOSS projects need.

LiveCD does not leave anything....

[snikulin]

Why, it does!
I like my systems text-only, thank you very much. All Linux Live CDs known to me insist on installing all that clickity-click crap. Then I have to spend hours removing all traces of X11 and such.

Re:LiveCD does not leave anything....

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a troll or a total retard. Linux LiveCD's don't install shit on your hard drive.

Trade in your computer for a Hello Kitty douche bottle. You'll get more use out of it.

Re:LiveCD does not leave anything....

[RiotingPacifist]

wtf you talking how does a liveCD install shit anywhere? only if you choose to install stuff does it touch anything or install anything thats why its a fucking LIVE cd

Re:LiveCD does not leave anything....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you like your systems text only why didn't you use the ubuntu-alternative (server) cd?

Re:LiveCD does not leave anything....

[Daengbo]

That's why they make the server install disk. You can have a nice, text installer and come out with whatever level of system you want. The live CD is for desktop installs.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Goaway]

Because nobody ever broke into a Linux machine over the net. Especially not because Debian left security holes big enough to drive a truck through open for years.

...there are many others that do [like it].

[snikulin]

Brown is a new White and MS has Zune to prove it!
But seriously, I always was perplexed by brown Ubuntu background. With so many arrows in the back of Zune... Or was it Shuttleworth first and MS a copycat?

Re:...there are many others that do [like it].

[rugatero]

Warty Warthog was released in October 2004. Microsoft first announced the Zune in mid-2006, releasing in November of that year.

Re:...there are many others that do [like it].

[mcvos]

But seriously, I always was perplexed by brown Ubuntu background.

Is it really brown? I thought it was some hip shade of orange.

Re:...there are many others that do [like it].

[SpiderClan]

Indeed. Brown is the hippest shade of orange.

The article is... not so great

[jonaskoelker]

X.Org 7.4 [...]. Hotplugging support for input devices actually works now, so you can plug in mice and tablets and use them without having to reboot.

Having to reboot? Wouldn't that be a kernel issue and not an X.org issue? I can imagine why you'd have to restart the X server, but the kernel? Haven't the kernel had hotplugging support with hotplug or udev for a few years now?

Improvements to X.Org also allow for the easier to manage display control panel, which allows users to adjust resolutions and screen placement for single and multiple monitor displays easily.

This is next to this image: http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u7/resolution.jpg. Who wants to bet that the control panel is part of GNOME, not X.org?

The new Network Manager is a great improvement over the previous release. It allows your Ubuntu machine to connect to the network before a user logs in.

Still no easy bonding? I submitted a request for that [/me feels indignant].

A bit seriously though: bonding rocks. Wanna pick up your laptop and not break the sshfs connection to your file server? Sure. Wanna have bandwidth that doesn't suck while you're tethered down by the ethernet cable? You can have that too.

But not with NetworkManager unless you hack some of its dispatcher scripts. Only for the techies.

Better Support for Web Video and Audio
Ubuntu now supports the high-quality setting in YouTube! We shall celebrate by watching videos of other people's animals at a better quality level. Additionally, now Ubuntu users can view the programming the BBC puts online in Totem. That's right, you can enjoy fine shows like Scotland Outdoors and The Archers from your Linux PC.

Cool! Uhh... what was updated again? Firefox? Flash? GStreamer? Totem? firefox-gstreamer-totemish-flv-plugin?

Type ecryptfs-setup-private in the Terminal, and you can hide and encrypt a folder in your Home directory. [...] This folder gives a secure location that you can use to store sensitive files, without paying the performance penalty that full-disk encryption incurs.

I wouldn't trust that. Applications may not know to keep data secret beyond umask, and so will store stuff in /tmp. Or your secret data will be put on the non-encrypted swap partition. And in my experience, full-disk encryption works fine, very little is noticable; a few .5s-delays when saving in emacs.

Config-less X.Org

Awesome!!1!

No seriously, I really think it is. Not much use to me now, but it'll probably be in the future.

[I'm still going to have an xorg.conf because it's a great place to cast spells that makes my trackball kick ass. EmulateWheel springs to mind, which is really a must with a Logitech Marble Mouse that has scroll _buttons_ instead of a wheel; no repeated scrolling otherwise, but with EmulateWheel I have it, and I have horizontal scrolling. Check out Battle for Wesnoth with horizontal scrolling, I wrote that :)]

Not the greatest written article. But I look forward to upgrading. Last time I did that, though, something broke. My plan is to pick a new package each day [or maybe every eight hours or so] and upgrade just that one. Then, when something breaks, I can limit it to one package plus dependencies, instead of all $BIGNUM packages.

Has it been half a year already? :)

-- Jonas K

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[LingNoi]

Because nobody ever broke into a Windows XP machine over the net. Especially not because Microsoft left security holes big enough to drive a truck through open for years.

Some negatives, too

[splict]

Unfortunately there are a few negatives, too. Thanks to the new kernel there is no realtime audio support for my Ubuntu Studio install and my laptop nvidia drivers would get switched to the non 3d open source nv drivers.

8.10 Release notes

So neither of my personal computers are getting upgraded which is unfortunate. I was looking forward to the Gnome updates and the newer officially supported apps.

Re:Some negatives, too

[fwarren]

I am running the nvidia 3d drivers on Hardy with the Intrepid 2.6.27 kernel. I had to download the nvidia-177-kernel file and patch. I then ran envy-ng and then manually ram the NVIDIA-setup in the nvidia-177 file.

incompatibility with hardware.

[Anonymous Coward]

What I can expect with Ubuntu 8.10 is incompatibility with hardware.

I can't use my Nvidia graphics card with my tv tuner card. And like most OSS zealots, they blame nvidia driver. But since it works in Hardy but not Intrepid, it's Ubuntu that is broken and blame falls squarely on OSS Developers

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[Kjella]

No point. I have posted about 5 bugs and nothing gets fixed.

1. Have anyone been able to confirm the bugs?
2. How serious?
3. How long have you waited?

My experience with any software, open or closed source is that it doesn't happen nearly as fast as you'd like, there's no army of bugfixers waiting for you to have a problem...

Not so biased...

[Junta]

The windows partition step is accurate for retail disks of XP. The steps aren't complex, but they require user to be explicit. In the Ubuntu case, it does indeed default/suggest formatting that you can just accept, for the most common case.

I accept that the poster was describing the retail packaging from microsoft. Comparing OEM 'convenience' roll-ups of software to direct OEM-independent media isn't fair either. As such, Windows XP is not useful in and of itself, and Office and numerous other pieces of software must independently installed to have a useful system. Note, a company in a monopoly admittedly can't win on this count, on one hand they ship a less useful product, go the other way and they abuse their position.

The point of 'installing more files' steps is not that Windows puts in more files (I would wager far more files in aggregate are copied to disk by Ubuntu. Think the point is that Windows installation of XP requires a handful of reboots to navigate. Sometimes these are petty to count, sometimes you have to be careful about controlling the boot device depending on the system/setup.

Windows update, with XP is similar to the partitioning step. You had to seek it out and do it, whereas in Ubuntu, it suggests the update process.

Note that XP was released in 2002. Linux distros of 2002 were no where near this level. It is to be expected that progress would be made. Comparing a distribution packaged in 2008 that can bundle with impunity to a platform that couldn't bundle at the time in 2002 isn't surprising that Ubuntu comes ahead. Vista may be different, I'm unsure. Even today Ubuntu and other distributions can bundle with impunity which will continue to give them a competitive edge in out-of-the-box experience without needing to resort to OEM prepared images.

Re:Not so biased...

[kaens]

In the Ubuntu case, it does indeed default/suggest formatting that you can just accept, for the most common case.

I do wish that that default formatting put /home on a separate partition, though.

Um, no. Flash works with 64 bit Firefox

[melted]

Um, no. Flash works with 64 bit Firefox. I don't know if it did before, but it most certainly does work now through nspluginwrapper.

Re:Um, no. Flash works with 64 bit Firefox

[moonbender]

It worked the same way in 8.04. I guess it's more stable these days or something. If Flash crashed, reloading a page brings it back, which is nice. On Windows I had to restart the browser.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Goaway]

You're the first person to bring up Windows. What exactly is the relevance?

My Experience

[spandex_panda]

I would like to add my 0.02. I installed Ubuntu 8.10 about a month ago due to getting a new pc with an intel ich - 10 (or whatever) chipset where hardy (the great stable one) wouldn't recognise my hard drive (pain in the arse).
So I installed intrepid and in the beginning there were constant application crashes, nvidia issues, then my wireless card stopped working and I couldn't even compile serialmonkey's drivers!
But now I am siting pretty, new vlc, new gnome, new gimp, open office 3.0 (from a ppa repo), new deluge ... its all great. Nvidia drivers work flawlessly and I even got 2 screens working (a 22 inch samsung and a CRT TV) without manually editting xorg.conf!! (amazing!). Virtualbox runs in seamless mode so I can use the few windows apps I can't live without (mostly for Uni) and ... its really great!

So in conclusion, if you want the latest and greatest free software then I highly recommend that you try Ubuntu 8.10, it works fabulously for me. If you want a super stable free software OS then use 8.04.1.

Re:My Experience

[QCompson]

I would like to add my 0.02. I installed Ubuntu 8.10 about a month ago due to getting a new pc with an intel ich - 10 (or whatever) chipset where hardy (the great stable one) wouldn't recognise my hard drive (pain in the arse). So I installed intrepid and in the beginning there were constant application crashes, nvidia issues, then my wireless card stopped working and I couldn't even compile serialmonkey's drivers! But now I am siting pretty, new vlc, new gnome, new gimp, open office 3.0 (from a ppa repo), new deluge ... its all great. Nvidia drivers work flawlessly and I even got 2 screens working (a 22 inch samsung and a CRT TV) without manually editting xorg.conf!! (amazing!). Virtualbox runs in seamless mode so I can use the few windows apps I can't live without (mostly for Uni) and ... its really great! So in conclusion, if you want the latest and greatest free software then I highly recommend that you try Ubuntu 8.10, it works fabulously for me. If you want a super stable free software OS then use 8.04.1.

Wow thanks for the tip, Captain Obvious! To sum up your experience, the new Ubuntu release in pre-beta state is unstable and has some bugs, while the older officially released Ubuntu is stable and reliable. Shocking!

Re:My Experience

[domatic]

I've got a configless X.Org on my EEE701. There is still a very sparse xorg.conf that is heeded. So the X will do 95% of the work of setting itself up and if you still want some special tweaks then just chuck them into that minimal xorg.conf and they'll be picked up. I put a few things in there to un-braindamage the overfeatured trackpad.

Why Is Everyone So Blue?

[Prototerm]

What's with all the blue color schemes, anyway? Personally, I hate the blue desktops a lot of people seem to favor, finding them cold and lifeless. At least the browns are refreshingly different. Personally, I customize mine to use shades of tan and light brown with a splash of deep emerald green.

Different drummer, and all that.

Re:Why Is Everyone So Blue?

[Lavene]

What's with all the blue color schemes, anyway? Personally, I hate the blue desktops a lot of people seem to favor, finding them cold and lifeless.

Blue? You think we'll use any random shade of blue? Of course not.

Re:Why Is Everyone So Blue?

[thetoadwarrior]

It's everyone trying to express freedom by implying their system is as open as the sky.

The sky is a pretty good representation of computing. From a distance it looks very free, fun and exciting. Then you actually get up there and find it full of limits, might possibly give you brain damage and makes some people sick.

Re:Why Is Everyone So Blue?

[TempeTerra]

It's a colour association thing designers use. Blue is authority and trustworthiness - policemen, banks, lawyers. Red and yellow are tasty food - McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, probably any other chain food outlets in your locality. Green is healthy and natural - Subway, organic shops, BP wishes they were.

Corporate OSes want to position themselves with business and authority, so blue and grey is the style.

I don't know if there's any standard association with brown. It seems fine to me as long as it's a good mix of browns and golds with some decent graphic design and not ugly wood veneer or dirt.

Re:Why Is Everyone So Blue?

[DustoneGT]

I don't do blue, I use as much transparency as possible. That way my desktop background dictates the look.

Well...

[jd]

It's not from a shortage of software that COULD be in Ubuntu (or Debian), and it's not from a shortage of updates available that supply lots of goodies not in the versions provided. I've often wondered about either running a repository for Linux software or even setting up my own distro, but the latter seems unnecessary given the number of distros out there, and the former is only going to be any good if I fork out a fair bit for space on a provider. I was actively considering that prior to the economic collapse, but right now I have neither the time nor the money to do a decent job of such a repository. Even when it was under consideration, the sort of scale I was thinking of was really beyond anything one person could do, I'd have needed help. Maybe when things improve, I might be able to tempt some fellow Slashdotters into jointly running a decent-sized repo. (By decent-sized, I mean something that satisfies a reasonable subset of the cravings of specialist users of Linux, such as astronomers, mathematicians, physicists, gamers and software developers outside of the C/C++/Java cabal.)

Re:Well...

[volkris]

Check out the launchpad PPA system.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[Daengbo]

Ubuntu has a serious problem with bugs (i.e. they don't fix very many). In my experience (quite a few bugs over several years), they just wait for upstream to fix the problem.

For example, hubackup has been broken and completely unusable for about two years. Istanbul (screencasting) suffers from bad video flickering and has since Feisty. Several bad strings in Gutsy never got fixed. Even when patches are provided, bugs often remain unfixed for months until they are closed due to inactivity or marked "invalid" for no apparent reason during one of Ubuntu's famous "five-a-day" drives.

WRT the article, I can't believe that MaximumPC is claiming Ekiga as a new feature. It's been in Ubuntu for as long as I can remember. Heck, Gnome 2.24 got Ekiga 3.0, but Intrepid is still shipping 2.0 (which is the same version that's in Gutsy and Hardy).

Simultaneous Multiple Mice/Keyboards

[brentonboy]

with MPX!

Re:Simultaneous Multiple Mice/Keyboards

[williamgrant]

Not quite - input hotplug is separate from MPX. We might not even see MPX in 9.04, but we'll see how things go.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Daengbo]

OK "Little Monkey" (LingNoi in Thai),
That's not an effective argument technique. Just because everyone else is main-lining heroin, does that mean you need to?

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Evil Pete]

Ahem. How often does this happen? Breaking into an up to date linux system is much harder that cracking the typical windows box. Sure it happens, because no OS is invulnerable but is it worth their effort, and there are always counter-measures. High profile targets will draw some talented attempts of course (Redhat I'm looking at you).

Another thing that is nice about gentoo ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing that is nice about gentoo ...

Everything is nice about Gentoo. Even the fact that the social meme surrounding it is to laugh at the crazy techies who want to extract the last bit of performance ... (Not so, we just want an easy life, and for the computer to do the hard work while we rock to the music. Post-installation, Gentoo is the most user-friendly distro by far, and I've tried them all.)

At the end of the day, who cares what the disparaging sheep think. It's their loss.

Just when did Linux get 'normal' users?

[johanatan]

Linux has normal users now? That's too bad.

Re:Just when did Linux get 'normal' users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well there is always BSD for you elitists, you can bitch all day about how unfree Linux is, just like the old days eh?

Avoiding Windows installation ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you invest in some imaging software for a hard disk instead of installing the OS each time?

So what you're saying is, why not avoid the extreme hassles of installing Windows by not installing it at all, but replicating pre-installed images?

Thanks for validating exactly the point that the parent made.

Windows installation is an utter disaster suitable only for OEMs to carry out. Even the most obfuscated Linux installation process is a walk in the park compared to the "user-friendly" (HAHAHAHA HAHA HAHAHA <gag>) Windows install.

The only reason Windows made it big is because it came pre-installed on everything. It wouldn't have become even a niche O/S if users had had to install it themselves, including all drivers and normally expected packages. Not even the dumbest moron wants to spend three days rebooting the system every few minutes just to reach a rudimentary base level.

They still get to manually edit their xorg.conf!

[sqrt(2)]

My resolution wasn't detected correctly by default and the resolution I needed to set it to (1440x900, a very common wide screen format) wasn't available in the change resolution settings. I installed the ATI driver (it's an x800), rebooted and got a black screen with a nice "Signal out of range" message. Excellent work, guys. The correct screen resolution is just something that has to work right the first time. There should at least be a way to add new resolutions without having to open up a root terminal.

It's still beta, so maybe this will be fixed before release or in an update but I'm not expecting it to be resolved.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[dominique_cimafranca]

I'll second that. When I install Ubuntu, I prefer using the Alternate Install image. That's because the machines I'm running on just cover the minimum memory requirements (256MB). Plus, it also allows me to do a minimal command-line only install (other parts to be added later.)

Completely broken windows share browsing

[Hohlraum]

Just because your OS uses a piece of software does not mean you should immediately upgrade subsequent versions of said OS with that software.

By Ubuntu's own admission the number one bug in tracker is that Microsoft has more market share. It helps if you don't blindly release a new desktop where one of the primary functions (its not just smb issues, they run the gamut) of that desktop is broken.

GVFS is total junk right now. It has to be the single worse regression in GNOME history. Now Ubuntu is using another new version of GNOME with the same regression that was in place with the last LTS release.

What about Bluetooth

[dubz]

the new Network Manager (manage wired, Wi-Fi, VPN, and cellular broadband connections in one place)

What about Bluetooth?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

WifI

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point, all I want from Ubuntu is for it to remember my wireless network WPA key so I don't have to set it every time I login. I understand that WiFi is a cutting edge technology but please, fix this and maybe ordinary users will bother with it. [/sarcasm]

Re:WifI

[SwedishPenguin]

NetworkManager has remembered WPA keys about three or four releases back by now.

Re:ubuntu release coincides with election.

[PunkOfLinux]

I don't think -1 Troll is good enough. We need to give this guy a -5 Asshole Racist.

I is not for me! I will stay with H.

[Jane Q. Public]

I am not interested in upgrading to Inebriated Impala. I am going to stick with my current favorite, Horny Housewife. From what I have read, it is pretty apparent that this version has not gotten the attention it deserves. Amazingly, the interface actually becomes friendlier the more you use it.

Admittedly, it does get a little needy at times... phoning and emailing me at work, and so on. But overall, I am quite satisfied. 3 or 4 times a week anyway.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[ricegf]

Dedicated installer disks are available, too. On the download page, click the "Alternate Desktop CD" checkbox just below "Start Download". No liveCD - just a nice, clean text-based installer like Grandma used to make. :-)

They still haven't got the Wifi Fixed...

[Anonymous Coward]

So now my Broadcomm 1395 chipset would get detected, but it wouldn't still connect to any WPA/WEP networks.

It is really painful, makes me switch back to Vista on my dual-booting Dell laptop!

Out-of-the-box is overrated

[GFree678]

One thing that a lot of people seem to enthusiastically remind others about when it comes to Ubuntu or Linux in general, is how good it is at supporting drivers "out of the box". Yes that's nice, but what I've found is a lot of those drivers lack functionality that I can immediately access in Windows after installing the drivers manually over there.

For example:

* I have a crappy Canon inkjet printer, but it still works so I keep using it. Both Ubuntu and Vista detect it and support it out of the box, however Vista is able to show extra details such as the ink levels, as well as allow me to perform deep cleaning/head alignment operations on the printer if required. I don't have any of that functionality in Linux - as far as the hardware support goes it just allows me to print, and that's pretty much it.

* My laptop uses an Intel X3100 integrated graphics chipset. Nothing fancy, but it works quite well. Ubuntu has an advantage where it correctly identifies the chipset, and not only enables the 3D stuff immediately but also correctly sets the resolution. In Vista/XP I'm required to install the drivers manually. However, in Ubuntu I'm unable to do things such as force the screen to keep its aspect ratio when running in a 4:3 resolution on a 16:10 screen (which is kinda important with games which don't have widescreen support for example). I don't have any ability to rotate the screen, which is easy to do with the Intel control panel in Windows, but none exists in Linux. There's probably a way via Xorg or xrandr but goodness knows I can't find it. Also, the OpenGL extensions aren't fully supported in Linux, which means certain games won't even run there but they will in Windows. Again, not a big deal for a laptop which isn't really designed for games, but there you go.

* The power settings available in Vista is incredible. It allows for very easy to tune control over how the machine powers down elements to save power, plus overall I can keep my Vista system running longer with Aero running than I can in Linux with Compiz.

Those are my experiences, and of course others will vary. Having said that, I'm sure there are people who don't care about such features with their computers, and in such a case, having minimally supported features on hardware is probably OK to them. To me, I want to have EVERYTHING the hardware can do.

Re:Out-of-the-box is overrated

[ePlus]

The extra options which you require that are on Windows but not on Ubuntu are available from the drivers which are released by the manufacturers.

If the manufacturer does not provide similar drivers for Linux that are also in Windows, then it is nothing the Linux developers can do. Reinventing the wheel won't help either.

The more people contact the manufacturers asking for better drivers for their Linux distribution the better.

Compatability with Core 2 Duo chipset

[assassinator42]

Users can hopefully expect computability with the ICH9 SATA controller in IDE mode. At least, it wasn't working with any of the 8.04 kernels when I used it and was working last I tried 8.10. Please tell me that this wasn't broken again.

Re:They still get to manually edit their xorg.conf

[Jamie Lokier]

In most cases, the resolutions available are returned by the monitor itself, over the DDC channel (on VGA, DVI and HDMI cables). The information block is called EDID.

Usually, if the monitor's native resolution and timing aren't in the detected list, it's because the monitor itself is sending faulty information, or because of using an old VGA cable which doesn't have the wires for DDC.

PulseAudio

[Anonymous Coward]

FIX PULSEAUDIO!

Ekiga

[RAMMS EIN]

``audio and video compatible SIP client''

Hasn't Ubuntu had that for ages? As far back as I can remember, Ubuntu has always included Ekiga.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[LingNoi]

It's relevant because the thread started by the AC was about viruses, rootkits and Linux not having them opposed to windows.

You then went on to describe the irrelevant Debian security holes (which have been fixed), at which point I counter argued that windows has the same flaws.

If you can't follow the thread then what are you doing here?

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[LingNoi]

Nonsense, you should already know yourself that the Debian/Ubuntu exploit was fixed months ago. My point is that even Microsoft has these problems, not that it's ok to have exploits because windows has them too.

Why the Halloween logo?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so a screaming skull is appropriate for Halloween, but is there a different logo for the other 11 months of the year?

I'd just be happy if Debian legacy support worked

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Lenny I can use my HP 1100. Hey, about 3500 copies per cartridge. Every new laser printer it seems they make the cartridges smaller and charge the same to close the ink gap. Hardy Heron, their cups is broken crap and remains broken crap. Just Google it.

2. Dell Inspiron 1100 video. Strictly VESA, baby, with Hardy. Hell, Fedora or a Knoppix disk can do better.

Long Term Support is a joke if Shuttleworth's vision is only directed into the _future_.

I'm sticking with the one and only original Debian. Ubuntu is just skin deep pretty.

 

Ubuntu is good, but cannot replace other distris

[cjmdaixi]

Linux's rapid development plays an incredible role in today's OS fields, which may astonish Microsoft and Mac an etc. The innumerable varieties of distribution, of course, enhance this spreading trends, perhaps is the most irreplaceable aspect. Ubuntu is just one of the massive distribution of Linux on desktop. However, nowaday Ubuntu becomes an alias of Linux while other organizition for Linux have been ignored, which may do a lot of harm to the future Linux development, I think.

Re:Check the author's name

[Tatsh]

"Will Smith" has been an editor/writer for Maximum PC for some time. It is obviously not the same Will Smith, but your post made me laugh. :D

Persistence?

[fatp]

According to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD/Persistence/, persistence has stopped working since 6.10 (tried 7.10 and did not work for me...). Does it work on 8.10?

Personally, I use Ubuntu as LiveCD when I need Linux on a computer which I don't want / don't have right to install Linux. Otherwise, I install the 'standard' debian. As a result, persistence is an important feature for me. And that's why I am still running 6.06.

WHY HAVEN'T THEY FIXED WINDOWS NETWORK BROWSING??

[Computershack]

Windows Network browsing is STILL BROKEN in Nautilus. They fucked it up in 8.04, as it was working in 7.10, and they've still not fixed it.
Also, the hard drive load cycle bug has only been half fixed. Why? They know how to fix it - people have submitted full fixes in bugtraq.

Fuck Ubuntu. Getting a bit pissed off with the shitty quality control they now have due to being hellbent on releasing every 6 months on the dot despite all the show stopper bugs.

tag: openmoko?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont suppose someone could explain why this is tagged "openmoko"? what the hell does ubuntu 8.10 have to do with that miserable failure?

Schwing

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, yes, naked people who look better than I do...

Vista vs Ubuntu

[tjstork]

If you are a geek of any kind, just driven by curiosity and a sense of just getting into the hardware, you really just have to use Linux. I honestly think Vista is a better operating system on the desktop than Linux is, but I still love Linux more. Maybe its being able to fix up a blown up boot menu by editing a text file. Maybe its being able to stare at a bazillion boot messages and suddenly realize that a dodgey nvidia driver isn't loading and that's what's screwing up your X. Maybe its the happy installation process or maybe its the gratification that 64 bit linux has been running on your hardware for three years now going back to suse 10, and Vista still won't install 64 bit on that. Or perhaps its the builtin Latex, the better integrated graphics thumbnail viewers, and the better package installer and the better add / remove programs... but in my case it was the happy discovery that under Linux if you want to see more columns in your text display you can resize the window but in windows you have to do the stupid properties thing.

I like Vista in a lot of ways, and it is a lot of ways better than Linux, but its not better in -every- way and a lot of the ways where linux is better happen to be pretty important. 64 bit versus 32 bit, a text window (bash and gnome terminal) that doesn't suck, a file system that's maniacally organized... I like Vista more than Linux, but I'll never really love it the way I love Linux. It's just a better culture... like, the way I like American cars... and yeah, the LSx series of V8s are pretty damned good engines, and Linux is a pretty damned good operating system.

Network Manager

[paedubucher]

The new Network Manager is the most important change for me. Now it works perfect with my WLAN network at home, at least with my notebook. I hope it will work that fine with my PC too, so WICD will not be needed anymore...

Re:They still get to manually edit their xorg.conf

[cool_arrow]

That's interesting. My monitor's resolution seems to never be correctly detected. Guess I should try a newer VGA cable.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[EvilIdler]

I have (critical and serious) bugs dating back to 7.10, possibly older, still open in Launchpad. Confirmed, long threads, no fix in sight. At least one is easy to fix, and a permanent solution exists..the devs just don't feel like implementing it.

What about SD cards?

[thetoadwarrior]

Surely they've fixed the read-only problem with the current version?

Can anyone confirm this?

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[Anonymous Coward]

If you make a statement like this it would be really good if you could post links to your bug reports. This helps to allow those who want to fix the problem to identify it. It helps those of us who are deciding which distribution to look at how the distribution handles problems. It takes away the feeling of criticism without evidence. It allows us to judge whether the distribution may have a real reason not to fix your bugs (sometimes the case). If you don't want it associated with your slashdot account post anon.

972 Votes Now

[Flammon]

972 votes now. Thank you Slashdot. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/1265/

Usability

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish Ubuntu is easy to use as ATM machines and Cell Phones.
I believe xPUD is working on this http://xpud.org/

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[moonbender]

I don't think it'll shrink drives by itself. At least I did it manually when I installed 8.10 alpha 5. I was fairly certain it'd work, but it was still scary.

They can also expect...

[isecore]

that Logitech (and many other brands) of Webcam stops functioning, and that the CD/DVD drives inexplicably keep injecting immediately upon ejecting a disc.

That's two of the minor annoyances that I discovered the other day when I upgraded Hardy to Intrepid. One of the major bugs still is the poor I/O-performance that occurs at intense disk-usage.

And this is of course provided these bugs don't get fixed.

Good!

[Bootarn]

(manage wired, Wi-Fi, VPN, and cellular broadband connections in one place).

This is great news! I for all have had trouble setting up VPNs in an easy fashion without using command line tools. While I have no problems using the command line, most users do. This is a highly anticipated feature.

Also, it's great with a network manager that can set up cellular broadband connections. In Sweden we have a technolygy store that incorrectly states on it's web page that Linux doesn't support cellular broadband, and therefore recommends customers to set up Windows XP on the Asus Eee PC they sell, in order to use cellular broadband. This is ignorance at it's worst, and I for one think it's a welcome addition to Ubuntu to support this type of connection in its graphical network manager. It might just be enough to kill this myth.

... a system lock-up if you invoke NVIDIA drivers?

[pterandon]

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/288726

____________
SLASHDOT BUG: I hit "Get 376 More Comments, but only got five more.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Goaway]

It's relevant because the thread started by the AC was about viruses, rootkits and Linux not having them opposed to windows.

It was about how Linux does have rootkits.

You then went on to describe the irrelevant Debian security holes

"Irrelevant"? That was a reply to your post where you assumed that the only way that rootkits get on a machine is when the user installs them as part of other software. I pointed out that most Linux machines get rooted through remote exploitation, and as an example pointed out that the Debian OpenSSL hole made it trivial to do just that.

If you can't follow the thread then what are you doing here?

I'm not sure you're in any position to accuse others of not following the thread.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Goaway]

Ahem. How often does this happen? Breaking into an up to date linux system is much harder that cracking the typical windows box.

It happens quite a bit. Disregarding whether it is easier to break into a modern Windows or Linux system (Windows certainly hasn't been standing still in terms of security, so it's not quite as easy to make that claim as it used to be), many Linux machines get rooted through insecure applications running on them (such as badly written web apps on web servers), or through dictionary attacks. Or, for that matter, through the Debian OpenSSL hole I alluded to earlier.

Re:I love the antivirus tag, so funny!

[Goaway]

Nonsense, you should already know yourself that the Debian/Ubuntu exploit was fixed months ago.

And before that, it was open for years. How many machines might have gotten rooted in that time?

Also, the real kicker with that security hole is that patching it doesn't actually close it! It just prevents it from happening again. To actually close it, you have to delete all keys generated with Debian over the last two years. The patches try to do that for the machine they are installed on, but that won't affect keys which were transferred elsewhere.

And of course, all machines do not get patched in the first place.

Dual monitors

[phorm]

Been awhile since I've tried it with Nvidia (plenty of machines with NV cards, but not with NV cards and two monitors), but with the ATI card it was pretty easy. The little manager icon it adds to your "K" menu (I use KDE) worked nicely. With my laptop I just tell it to add a new screen... in expansion mode... to the left of my current screen, just a few clicks needed.

My work machine also has dual monitors, which work but I've noticed two points of weirdness which seem related to GL or the ATI card itself:

a) Icons and window shades tend to get all-black borders at times, and look asstastic.

b) When coming out of "lock" mode with a GL screensaver, the lock dialog is hidden behind the paused screensaver so I can't actually see if it's working.

Invest in Clonezilla

[symbolset]

It's free and it's the best there is.

Re:ubuntu release coincides with election.

[PunkOfLinux]

My, how wonderfully mature.

Repressed homosexual urges, my friend?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Ok...

[thexile]

So what abnormal users can expect? Non-brown desktop?

try again

[Anonymous Coward]

The PowerPC / Cell ports releases linked above ( http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily-live/current/ ) get all security and package updates the same as x86 and x86_64 from official Ubuntu repos.

All isos, packages, security updates, etc are made by the Canonical team. Not the community. Feel free to ask on irc if you need clarification.

The only difference is that you cannot pay Ubuntu for commercial support for PowerPC.

Re:try again

[Doc Ruby]

Beginning with Ubuntu 7.04, the PowerPC edition of Ubuntu will be
    reclassified as unofficial. The PowerPC software itself and supporting
    infrastructure will continue to be available, and supported by a community
    team.

Full decision:

    The Ubuntu Technical Board has decided to reclassify PowerPC as an
    unofficial architecture, rather than a fully supported architecture, for
    Ubuntu 7.04 and subsequent releases. This means that packages and ISO
    images will continue to be produced, but releases will not be delayed due
    to problems which are specific to PowerPC, and the quality of the PowerPC
    release itself will depend very much on the extent to which members of the
    Ubuntu community drive PowerPC testing and bug fixes.

In other words, Canonical is hosting the Ubuntu on PPC community, but the community is doing the development. And if a PPC port is broken at Ubuntu release time, it ships broken. Canonical might possibly do some PPC patching task, but there's no guarantee. That's why the community needs developers, and why I'm promoting it.

Re:Total system freezes, for one

[shish]

my pet bug, been waiting for over two years for someone to rename a symlink, currently the system hangs on shutdown / reboot (very annoying on the desktop, you'll need to call tech support on a server)