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Poll Finds 23 Percent of Texans Think Obama is Muslim
A University of Texas poll has found that 23 percent of Texans are convinced that Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama is a Muslim. Only 45 percent of the people polled correctly identified Obama as a Protestant Christian. Nationwide, the number of people who believe in the "Secret Muslim Conspiracy" is about the same as those who believe that the moon landing was faked (5-10 percent), which makes the high numbers in Texas unusual.
That doesn't make sense.
-- Proud Texan
A second poll found that one if four people are complete fucking idiots.
Texas is a whole 'nother country.
They have great ice cream (Blue Bell), great water parks (Schlitterbahn), nice lakes and neat caverns. But they also have a lot of insular communities in the country (I grew up in one...not fun if you disagree with the pack/herd).
I m
What does it matter you bigoted, hateful bastards?
Wow, go Texas! Represent yourselves!
It has been well known among those close to Obama, although a tremendous effort has been made to obscure the fact. And who better than Obama's good friend Louis Farrakhan to know the truth. Farrakhan, the leader of the Nation of Islam says B. Hussein Obama is a Muslim, and that is sufficient enough evidince of the fact that Obama truly IS a Muslim.
Stop the judgment bus there buddy!
I don't like Muslim *ideology*.
I don't like the idea that I must submit to Allah. Does this make me hateful? A bigot?
The President has the ability to veto and make decisions, and these in turn affect me, you and the world. What is his or her ideology? Are they pro women's rights? A Muslim, holding to Sharia law, sees women as less-than-human.
I can't support such an ideology.
Yeah, let's talk religion.
Poll of only 550 voters? That's a pretty small sample to draw such a cruel conclusion about a large group of people. I used to live in the Bible Belt and I dislike it as much as the next guy, but the article is guilty of the same sort of bigotry of which it accuses Texans.
He also said anonymous cowards are all muslim, by your logic YOU are now muslim, moron.
The tide is turning. I've been a Texan all my life. Conservative talk radio dominates the AM dial and like they say...garbage in...garbage out. I'm constantly amazed how blindly my neighbors follow the party line. Lies and innuendo are accepted as fact. I hate to admit it, but the Christian Conservative movement has turned the whole fight into an us-against-them battle and it's impossible to make rational arguments when it's gotten to that level. There are those of us here that see the absurdity and will be voting for Obama. I don't agree with everything he stands for. Illegal immigration is a huge issue here. We don't really understand why politicians don't stand up for the American worker. Our jobs are being de-valued by workers who come here and will accept a non-living wage for most Americans. Our federal government hands out money hand over fist for welfare, health benefit and education to people that have no legal right to be here. Other than that, I agree with Obama's plans completely. The myth that the market will take care of itself has finally been debunked and hopefully we will get some sane regulation put back in place. I hope we can bring our troops back home and balance the budget. I hope we can do something about health care. I hope we can do something about our reliance on foreign oil. I hope we can help the unfortunate here at home that have slipped through the cracks due to our own selfishness. I believe that Obama is our best hope for a better future...and as a native Texan...he has my vote.
The question was what religion they believed him to follow, not "what church does he attend". Many people know what church he has attended in the past and still believe him to tend towards Islam.
I dream of the day when an atheist/agnostic person can be elected to the presidency; when a candidate's religious orientation does not matter; when we can truly have separation of church and state.
As long as the sample is representative, the margin of error there is only about +/- 3.5%. (Sample Size Calculator)
Most national polls use sample sizes of 1000 or less, chosen from a population of 300 million. The whole point of polling is that you don't need to talk to a huge percentage of the population in order to be confident in your results.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
So if Osama Bin Laden said McCain was a terrorist then he's a terrorist? Or if the Pope were to say McCain is a Catholic he's a Catholic?
You seem to have the detective skills of the fictional Scotland Yard detectives in the Sherlock Holmes stories (and that's being generous).
A Muslim no but I will pick the other corporate favorite because of their respective political views not because of any of the mudslinging either way.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz
He looks so sweet in that dress.
Vote for him!
Forms Republic of Dumbfuckistan
Anybody want my mod points?
What is the number of people in Texas who believe the moon landing was fake? Some states might have a higher ratio of crazy conspiracy theorists than other states, so I'm just gonna say Texas is one of those states.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
shouldn't it be "was"?
Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barack Obama, Sr) passed away when Barack Obama II was 21.
He might up there with the 72 Virginians having a beer and discussing his son's political career.
If the "bailout bill" hadn't passed, there still would have been a stock market correction, and we taxpayers would still have our $700B instead of it being used for executive retreats, shareholder dividends, and mergers.
23 percent of younger voters think Obama is actually Jesus.
It's not any better on the other side... :(
I don't remember anyone asking me what I thought.
UNIX is truth, the Console is life. Use Evolution to send e-mail and not virii.
The only problem with that statement is that it isn't true.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
23% were unable to find their asses with the aid of a flashlight. On the upside, many holes in the ground were discovered.
What is wrong with being a Muslim? Why do people from blue states enjoy red wine? Just a few questions this Halloween Eve.
Paragraphs.
And this proves it, in the worst, saddest way. :(
He's a believer in Black Liberation Theology, which is far worse.
Some of the tenants of BLT: ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.
Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community
If nothing else, this year's campaigns have shown me how easily manipulated the general public is. It's not just people in Texas, but close friends of mine. I can't even vocalize how shocked I was to have someone I always believed to be an intelligent person confide in me his belief that Barack Obama is a "secret Muslim".
I can't believe how often and with how much confidence I see pundits, news anchors, editors, and journalists make claims about one candidate and simultaneously brush off exactly the same claim about their favored candidate. I mean to watch Bill Kristol essentially say, with a smile on his face, "It's only socialist if a Democrat does it." or "They're only radical associates if we're talking about Barack Obama." and then brush off the entire conversation the moment Palin's associations are mentioned.
It makes me think of one of Dr. Phil's favorite phrases "Right Fighters". They don't want to do what works, they want to be right. 95% of the people in this country wouldn't care if the candidate they've chosen blew up the whole fucking world, they'd never admit to being wrong. They'd just smile as their skin boiled off and say "Yeah, well your guy would have been worse."
I'm ashamed to even participate in this process. I'm ashamed to be saddled with the burden of even having to share a species with Sean Hannity. I don't want the other species of the world to make the mistake of thinking we've got anything in common. More than anything else, I think this election has just made me feel hugely ashamed. It doesn't matter who wins, humanity already lost.
The political interests now directly control the media. Journalists aren't even reporting or investigating anymore, they work for lobbyists and politicians while pretending to be informing the people. It's sad that comedians like Jon Stewart are so much closer to reporting reality than Fox News or CNN. As I'm sure everyone has now watched, they discussed Marsha Brady on CNN like she's a real person. That's what this whole thing is about. People who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy. Of course so many people believe Obama is a secret Muslim, anyone who thinks the Brady Bunch is a documentary is prone to believe anything.
No, he's not Muslim, but his attending a rather radical black theology church with a rather strange pastor combined with other "interesting" seeming Muslim-sympathetic beliefs or actions do seem to point to a non-full disclosure of his beliefs, etc.
Um, you haven't read his book, have you? The first one, titled "Dreams from my Father", describes in detail how he was referred to Rev. Wright's church and what it meant to him, and described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system. The second one, "The Audacity of Hope", was named after the name of the first sermon he heard at Rev Wright's church and discusses the progression of his thinking and approach to government and belief. He may be accused of a lot of things, but lack of full disclosure CAN NOT be one of them. His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them. He especially values differing opinions, which I like as something that will help prevent any "failures of imagination" in his administration. Rev. Wright to him was a focal point for many disparate beliefs and influences, and despite some incendiary language helped him see many issues more clearly. In other words, Rev Wright was more of a lens than the source of light for Obama (at least that's my impression from his books).
I think this is why McCain has rightly shied away from challenging Obama's beliefs. Because they actually are one of Obama's strengths, especially compared to McCain's own.
E pluribus unum
Jeez, even when trying to clarify you get it wrong.
I'm sure if he was Catholic you people would be saying or implying he was a child molester.
It's fine for someone to go to a church, practice ritual cannibalism, look at some guy nailed to a cross, but not fine for this other church to spout off crazy talk.
I mean really, you are all crazy.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Maybe there IS some kind of crazy connection between the moon hoax idiots and the twits who claim Obama is a "secret muslim". People have been making the same claims about Neil Armstrong for years...
http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2006/09/16/was-neil-armstrong-the-first-muslim-on-the-moon.htm
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
I always wondered why the camera work was so bad...
I lived in Texas and in those days wrestling (pronounced wras-lin) was almost a religion and any suggestion that it was anything but real was considered complete heresy.
So, no, this comes as no surprise.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
How many of the 23% think that him being a Muslim would be a problem? There is difference between being uninformed and being a bigot.
but he's certainly NOT Christian. My guess would be godless socialist who has used his "Christian church" as cover for his run for President. And I'm not too sure about his church, either.
So what? Last I checked the United States of America was a country with a clear separation of church and state. Why do you CARE if he is a muslim, a christian, a jew , a hindu or an athiest? All you should care about is if he is a good president. Don't give me the hogwash about his religion influencing his actions. Do not vote for a president because he is swayed by his religious beliefs, NOT because he belongs to a particular religion. Don't vote for him even if he is a christian.
Don't vote for barak obama because he is black either, just as you wouldn't want someone to not vote for him because he is black. Either way its racism. Race, religion and sexual orientation are all irrelevant to his ability to run this country. But no. thats too much work for you isn't it? Its much easier to be ignorant and prejudiced than to be informed and fair.
Will he be a better president and have better policies than John McCain? That's what you should be thinking about. That's it. NOTHING else. So what if Barak Obama is a Gay, Muslim, Black man? If you think any of those three inherently affects his ability to run this country, then you are ignorant and frankly shouldn't be allowed to vote.
- Tempestdata
Not sure why it's so surprising. If someone's last name was 'Goldstein', would you make the assumption of Jewish when asked the question? There's a long history of names and ethnicities being directly associated with religions.
To pretend otherwise is just looking to prove yourself some kind of superior. What do most of the Obamaites know about McCain's religion if asked? Is he Episcopal or Baptist?
Also, do muslims regard Obama as a muslim?
This is entirely irrelevant unless you yourself allow religious people to rule over your life. The catholic church claims that everyone who is baptized cannot "really" leave the church. Well, I was baptized, I left the church, and I am not a christian whatever the pope may think.
Muslims claim that [...] if you leave the muslim faith, sharia law demands your execution.
Some muslims believe that apostasy must be punished. Admittedly, they are currently in some powerful positions, but the situation would be better if the US governments hadn't put them into power all the time.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
No, there were Islamic influences in his schooling and upbringing but it simply not correct to state that he was raised as a Muslim or that he went to an Islamic school.
Getting back to the original question of whether "Obama is Muslim", a big part of the problem is lack of quantifiers. Being Muslim is not a black or white distinction.
Obviously Obama is not a full Muslim. If he were, he would be praying five times a day (Salat) and would have been fasting during the day for most of the month of September (Ramadan) - that is, people would have noticed.
On the other hand, if the implied quantifiers are "Obama is [slightly more] Muslim [than he has admitted on the campaign trail]", then there might be a small sliver of truth in that statement. Obama is probably quite a bit more sympathetic to the Islamic religions than most Americans.
So, what are Obama's real beliefs? Basically, he's a college professor (in constitutional law) who believes that one of the many reasons that people are poor is that society is structured in such a way to not provide them adequate opportunities. That is, he believes that the incidence of poverty can be reduced by improving opportunities available to poor people (for example, improved educational opportunities).
Basically, Obama doesn't care really about religion or "God" or any of that. What he cares about is trying to improve the structure of society to provide poor people with improved opportunities. He doesn't choose a religion or a pastor based on their theological claims, to the extent that he associates with religion or religious people it is because they share his interest in improving the opportunities available to poor people.
23 percent means that 77 percent either don't know or know he isn't a Muslim. Lets get real here, you can find a surprising percentage of people that think Elvis is still alive, Aliens from outer space are among us, or a thousand other bits of nonsense. And before you go knocking those people you're one of them. We all are... most people believe or think a few stupid things. Almost everyone. It doesn't matter if you've a PHD is astrophysics or are among the foremost brain surgeons in the world. You probably believe at LEAST one thing that's crazy or stupid. I'm sure I'm no exception. So 23 percent believe Obama is a Muslim? How many people in think 9/11 was a plot by the "jews"? You'll get embarrassing numbers from any of these queries until you realize the following point. Everyone believes crazy stuff. What's actually important is how respected that point is within the culture. How common it is and how credible it is...
23 percent is not a credible figure. Embarrassing? Sure... but no where near a plurality. I'll even relate it to matters of taste. You'll get a surprising fraction of the population that thinks no matter how bad was . It does not matter how horrible it was... how little sense it made... or how little the writers, directors, actors, producers, etc think of their audience. A lot of people will drink that puke up and ask for seconds. And again, I'm probably one of those idiots from time to time. Maybe it was so bad that I enjoyed it. Maybe I interpret it in an implausible way that makes it better then it actually is... The point is that something that almost everyone thinks is horrible gets a good rating from some people... all the time. Ever wonder how horrible musicians, writers, etc pay their rent? It's very simple... someone out there buys their crap and likes it.
The same holds true for everything which is why the two party system is probably better then a multi party system. No matter how bad the dems or reps get, at the very least you're not putting complete fridge nut jobs in power. Sure, your third party aren't fridge nut jobs "to you" but to the majority they'll be perceived as crazy people. And before you claim that's unfair, tell me the other third parties that you don't support are not nut jobs? Because that's how this game works. You'll see your own pet group as the "enlightened" and everyone else as crazy whack jobs... not realizing that you are in turn perceived as a whack job by the other factions.
So... to finish this rant 23 percent is meaningless. This article is meaningless... and I'd LOVE to see a poll of crazy ideas among the slash dot community. Doubtless 23 percent of us believe all sorts of stupid crap.
In any case many of these people are bigots, but bigotry is not socially acceptable, so they come up with other reasons to justify their fears. You want to attack Arab people, say their religion is denerate. You don't want Arab people in your work place, say that prayer is bad and planning life around worship rather than profit is bad. You don't want to vote for a black/asian/american male, then say he is not christian. Of course the man that divorced his wife to marry a prettier younger and wealthier woman is.
If this is not enough, say he associates with terrorists and his wife hates america and his pastor hates amerca. Of course the candiate that actually courts terrorists organization, and goes to a church that believes witches are the cause of all problems, and whose husband was a member of an organization that has publicly stated that america is bad and has damned everything about amerca, and the candidate herself comes from a state where right now they are damning the america judical system, is irrelevent. Because these candidates are not dark skinned
To be fair not all republicans are bigoted christian rednecks. Many are quite rational. But enough of them are that the RNC has been the primary force behind the use of white supremacist rhetoric to mobilize the masses, re McCain and Palin inciting persons at their rallies to scream "Terrorist, Kill Him" at rallies.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Don't mess with Texas, its not nice to pick on retards.
...is the fact that in an interview Obama made a reference to his "muslim faith" then said "oh, that was a slip, I meant to say christian faith". I've known many people who converted from one religion to another (including Muslims who became Christians) and have never before heard someone "slip" like that. It's like someone "accidentally" saying "I'm a republican.......oh that was a slip......I mean, I'm a democrat".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Modded down = Obama fanatic lashes out.
he was raised as a Muslim
[citation needed]
and studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia.
No, he didn't. He studied at a school in Indoneisa, but calling it an "islamic" school is like calling all schools in the US "christian".
he had no problem with going to a church with an hateful racist pastor
Uhh, if you check, you'll find that he *doesnt* go to that church anymore, which kind of implies that he *does* have a problem with it.
Perhaps you need to catch up on your propaganda. I think you're supposed to be calling him a Marxist now.
Moreover, if fundamentalist muslims want him dead for his supposed attempts to leave the muslim faith, that kind of puts a point as to how trivial it would be, it doesn't make him still a muslim (and again, that's assuming he ever was, which he wasn't).
And, once he does die, he'll probably be baptized by proxy into the mormon church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead) so really who is to say what religion he is? Is he all three? Absurd.
Studies have shown time and time again that throwing money at public education doesn't produce better students if the kids don't want to learn / have parents who will make them do the work. We've also seen through the last century how stealing money from people who work and giving it to people who are too lazy to work / won't put out the effort required to get a well paying job ends up dragging everyone down. If Obama really cared about helping poor people he wouldn't be saying "I'm going to steal money from the evil white people and give it to you!" he'd say "The only person who can really help you is yourself. You have to decide that you REALLY want a better life and work for it. Sure, you may need help from friends / a church / a charity to get you started, but the vast majority of it is purely on you" and point to countless examples of people who had a bad life, were born into poverty, and then chose to make something of themselves instead of just staying where they were because it required less effort.
Obama will only drag the country as a whole down and help keep the poor poor (which has long been a tactic of the Democrats since then they can always blame the evil white Republicans and keep getting the same people to vote for them). I can't wait to laugh when Obama gets elected and the stock market doesn't magically change, people don't magically stop doing crack and start going to school, etc. Maybe that's the wake up call this country needs though, for everyone to put their blind faith into their messiah and when he fails to bring about the utopia they believe he will, they will realize that socialism is NOT going to make anything better. -- only hard work (and being able to receive the benefits if your hard work) can make things better.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The problem isn't that he is or isn't Muslim, but rather that it appears by all accounts that he was at least for a time raised Muslim, and then turned his back on the religion - an apostate, and the worst kind, according to the Christian Science Monitor, because he was "gifted by Allah" to be born a Muslim, and then renounced the religion. I think the real fear with if he is/was Muslim at any point during his life is if the Muslim community considers him an apostate, it could give them another reason to attack the U.S. if Obama is elected.
Catholics gave up crusading a few centuries ago. Islam seems to be getting into that "phase" now, which makes sense to me, as Islam started several centuries later.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
For what it's worth, I had a Muslim friend who was going to a catholic school because his parent thought the education was better in that particular school. He's still a Muslim even though he has been tutored by catholic nuns. I also met a couple of people who were born and raised catholic and turned to Islam when they grew older. Religion is about what you believe in, not really what school you attended. There's a good verse in the Coran (or was it an Hadith) that say something along the line of "If someone calls himself a muslim and you call him an infidel you are in fact the infidel" (because it's for god to judge who is a pious man and who is not etc.. etc..).
I was forcefully baptized when I was 2 months old and my parents dragged me to sunday school and forced me through 1st communion.. I don't consider myself a catholic, most of it sounds like crap to me. Which matters? That I was forced to say a few ave maria and our father or that I really can't give a damn about it thirty years later?
Only 45 percent of the people polled correctly identified Obama as a Protestant Christian.
Excuse me, /. editors, but your hubris is showing.
What makes you so cock-sure that the Big O is a Christian?
Muslims all over the world believe that he is a Muslim. Louis Farrakhan says that he's a Muslim. Muammar Qadhafi says that he's a Muslim. Even Obama himself said on national TV that he is a Muslim.
Consider this: Muslims in America are going all-out for him with fundraisers, rallies, etc. Yet according to the Koran, he's an infidel and must be killed, because he was raised Muslim but is now a Christian.
Unless, of course, he really IS a Muslim and he's hiding something from the rest of us that the Muslim world already knows.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Obama is a college professor (constitutional law). Strictly speaking, he doesn't believe in throwing money at public schools: he believes in throwing money at college professors to design better public schools. That is, he would say that the existing studies are inadequate and we need more studies.
Actually, the USA did quite well in the mid part of the last century when the income tax on very rich people got as high as 90%. Not to mention that, when a couple died, the government got 50% twice (once for each person's death) so that the government ended up taking 75% of the accumulated wealth at each generation.
I think he'd disagree with the "only". What Obama would say is that careful design of a society to offer easy opportunities can increase frequency with which people lift themselves out of poverty.
Well, to borrow a phrase from the Republicans: "If you don't like it, you can leave." If you really think that society takes more from you than it provides for you, you can always buy a houseboat and go live out in the middle of the ocean. Strictly speaking, if you want to avoid stealing from previous generations, your houseboat shouldn't contain any technology developed by previous generations - just a few logs lashed together with vines and a pointy stick to spear the fish.
Its KINGDOM of Dumbfuckistan!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I must have caught the Islamic school from a bad source, then. As for that church he attended, he was fine going to that church for as long as he did. He only denounces it because it's bad press. It either means that he agreed with the pastor or he he's a dispassionate Christian. Either way.
Still, we should choose our leaders. If I don't believe somebody is righteous, I will not follow them.
It wasn't long ago that Kyle stated 1/4 of Americans are retarded. Perhaps what Kyle meant was that 1/4 of REAL Americans are retarded.
It's a poll of 800 people, and they don't tell you a damn thing about the demographic makeup of the poll. Is it possible that 23% of East Texans think Obama's a Muslim? Sure, but like 98% of East Texas has 11 fingers and toes anyway, so who cares.
But, the real point is that this is a bullshit poll, and nothing can be drawn from it. It's like polling prisoners at Attica and then putting out a report saying "85% of New Yorkers like to fuck little boys in the mouth".
why doesn't cmdrdildo just put up the obama for president theme and be done with it?
... an open book that his worshipers deny. Racist mentors, Chavez's speeches, stealing from the future to buy votes now, just an extention of crooked Chicago politics. The only new thing about Obama is that he's a very gifted public speaker.
Do you believe everything you read?
Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
You mean the book someone else wrote for him?
"Most people opposed the $700 billion bailout."
That's because no one laid out what they were going to do with it.
I wouldn't give my daughter $20 without her being able to explain what she was going to spend it on, but I am supposed to trust the same guys who got us into the economic mess with another $700B?
And how many of those economist that you spoke of were in favor of deregulating the market creating the mess? How many could tell us the likelihood that they'll be back asking for another $700B?
I am just counting down the days until we get the stories of how the corrupt lenders who got us into this mess will profit massively from this transfer of wealth.
I'm amazed even 35% of the people were in favor of it.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
How long did he attend this "church" ? Did he bring his family? Would you allow your family to listen to any type of hate speech without leaving! Perhaps you need a reality lens. Judge a man by his actions! Not by his prose.
If you live long enough, you will discover the truth.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2336
"The Closing Argument"
By John Perazzo
October 31, 2008
Now that Barack Obama has delivered his nationally televised "closing argument" summarizing the supposed justifications for electing him to be the next President, I present this compelling argument against such a vote. It is an argument based on a thorough analysis of Obama's record vis a vis the votes he has cast, the positions he has taken, and the promises he has made during the course of his entire political career--eight years in the Illinois state senate and four years in the U.S. Senate (of which the last two years, incidentally, were spent almost entirely on campaigning for the presidency rather than on attending to any legislative duties--as evidenced by the very large number of votes for which he was not present during that period).
I will look also at several of Obama's alliances that are of immense significance, examining the nature of those relationships and the reasons why they are so important.
If you, the reader, are already aware of the considerations discussed herein and you intend nevertheless to vote for Barack Obama, your decision is to be respected. In the marketplace of ideas, we are not all required to select items from the same shelves.
But perhaps you are an Obama supporter who is unaware of many or most of the things discussed in this document. It is for your consideration that this is written.
You may approach this document in either of two ways. You may, as is recommended, start at the beginning of the narrative and read it through to the end. But if you prefer, you may also click on those particular subheadings that most interest you, and read them in any sequence you wish.
Table of Contents:
Obama's Major Alliances, Affiliations, and Influences
* William Ayers: "Someone Who Lives in My Neighborhood"
* Bernardine Dohrn: Another ex-Terrorist. Marxist Political Ally
* Pro-Soviet Political Ally: Alice Palmer
* Attending the Socialist Scholars Conferences
* Saul Alinsky: The Marxist Who Was Obama's Strongest Enduring Influence
* ACORN: Socialists and Criminals with Longstanding Ties to Obama
* Fannie Mae and Obama
* Endorsement by the Democratic Socialists of America
* Alliance with the Marxist "New Party"
* Alliance with Carl Davidson, Marxist
* Obama Cites Arafat/PLO Supporter, Rashid Khalidi, As Voice of Reason
* Obama's Pro-Arafat Political Advisor
* Another Obama Associate Who Sees Israel's Creation As a "Catastrophe"
* Obama's Alliance with Multi-Billionaire George Soros, and Why It Matters so Greatly
* Louis Farrakhan
* Rev. Jeremiah Wright
* Rev. Otis Moss
* Rev. Michael Pfleger
* Cornel West (Marxist) and Obama's Black Advisory Council
* Rev. Al Sharpton
* Khalid al-Mansour
* Political Alliance with MoveOn.org
* Political Alliance with an Advocate of Reparations for Slavery
* Obama's Lies about His Muslim Upbringing As a Child
Issues and Perspectives
* Redistribution of Wealth
* Abortion
* Immigration
* Energy Policy
* Taxes
* Foreign Policy
* Homeland Security / War on Terror
* Should Terror Suspects Be Tried by Military Commissions (or by Civilian Courts)?
* Habeas Corpus for Detained Terror Suspects?
* Military / Missile Defense / Weapons Systems
* The War in Afghanistan
* The Iraq War
* Education
* Busing and Race-Conscious Admissions Policies
* Affirmative Action
* Constitution / Supreme Court
* Environment
* Same-Sex Marriage
* Racial Gerrymandering of Voting Districts
* Welfare Reform
* Earmarks
* Criminal Justice
* Gender Discrimination
* Foreign Aid
* Foreign Contributions to Obama's Presidential Campaign
* Obama Likens Aspects of America to Nazi Germany
Conclusion
Obama's Major Alliances, Affiliatio
Have read Obama's books?
Only the informed are qualified to make a decision.
If the man can't pass a background check to become an FBI agent why would I want him calling the shots for the free world?
Native Texan voting for the alternative to Obama.
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." - G W Bush (Sept 21, 2001)
Given that many Americans are completely unaware of what Roe Versus Wade is, who the president is at any given time, or how many justices sit on the supreme court, this result is not terribly shocking. It's easy to pick on Texas but It's sort of silly. All you've discovered is that a more rural state is about 10% off of the mainstream.
Holy dog****!!! Texas, only steers and ***** come from Texas Private Cowboy and you don't much look like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down...
Gunnery Sargent Hartman
I must have caught the Islamic school from a bad source, then.
You mean the Republicans?
As for that church he attended
Ahh, so.. he claims to be a christian, goes to a christian church, (ostensibly) believes in christian ideology, but he's not a christian because of something that *someone else* says?
Whatever your "bad source" is giving you, you need to either up or cut the dose.
Catholics gave up crusading a few centuries ago. Islam seems to be getting into that "phase" now, which makes sense to me, as Islam started several centuries later.
Actually, if you consider the Jihad against the Crusaders (one of the catalysts for the Second and Third Crusades) as a crusade itself, then the Muslims have had some practice already. They were a lot more disciplined then than they are now, though, although they were just as fragmented.
I was forcefully baptized when I was 2 months old
That's 100x better than being forcefully circumcised, you should be grateful..
Studies have shown time and time again that public education produces people who say things like "studies have shown time and time again" without actually ever referring to a single such study.
What interview? I think this is another talk-radio generated lie.
One's religious beliefs are a state of mind. It is not possible to observe this state unless you are the observer. Unless you are Barack Obama, you cannot possibly know whether Barack Obama is a Muslim, a Protestant Christian, a Zoroastrian, or an atheist. What he claims or outwardly practices is irrelevant, as is what anyone in Texas thinks of him. You don't know. I don't know. Only he knows. And the exact same thing can be said for every other human being alive, including John McCain.
This is why religious beliefs are irrelevant when choosing leaders. You just can't know.
73% of Texans believe the government blew up the twin towers and that the whole muslim and planes thing is just a cover story.
So it all evens out.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
If a man is offered a fact which goes against his
instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless
the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to
believe it.
If, on the other hand, he is offered something
which affords a reason for acting in accordance
to his instincts, he will accept it even on the
slightest evidence.
The origin of myths is explained in this way.
The only 'religious' thing he's done is attend the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years, who he now disowns for political reasons. Obama's mother was atheist. He never knew his father. His step-father was muslim.
So many KKK members support McCain.
Maybe just maybe one might have went to his fundraiser and speeches... gasp! Wow McCain is a radical biggot who hates all black people!
Guilt by association was tried in the 1950's and most Americans except those on the far right do not care. Its MCarthy -ism at its finest.
http://saveie6.com/
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=74635 It was a televised interview on ABC.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Looks like you failed the Texas Citizen IQ test (scored way too high). They are going to kick your eeee-leee-tist butt right out of there. So, from one former Texan to a future former Texan: congratulations.
Obama is a lawyer and a politician. Two of the worst profession a person can have. I don't trust politicians, most of them will either lie or bend the truth to suit their needs. Lawyers are even worst. They either don't have a belief system or they are taught not to. Their belief is whatever is expedient for them to win or to shine the best light on them.
If you trust whatever comes out of the mouth of a lawyer and politician that much, then I have some beach front property I want to sell you.
Don't trust what they say. Look at what they do.
It fascinates me how blindly people will follow a politician as if they actually thought the politician was really looking out for their best interest. The only thing I know for sure about politicians is that they are only looking out for their best interest, not yours. It's getting very disappointing to have to pick from the lesser of two bad candidates each election. Too bad good ones only come every few decades.
His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
If you bought those books (both literally & figuratively), then I've got a couple bridges you might be interested in.
(FWIW, I don't support either Obama or McCain.)
Stick to the tech stuff. If I wanted the opinions of a bunch of borderline-retard 15 year-olds, I'd go to Digg.
With the low-fat mayo, which is why he hasn't gotten massively lard-assed fat like 40% of Texans.
Anyway, my AC-homie, why are you playing around with this crazy (and wrong) theological statement? Come out and say it, loud and proud: "he's worse than a Muslim 'cuz he's an UPPITY NEGRO!" You're already got the white hood on, a'int nobody know who you are no how....
There was a great deal of concern that, being Catholic, JFK might take his orders from the Pope, instead of enforcing the Constitution. Until he was elected, it was widely believed that only a Protestant could be elected President.
It all turned out to be bunk. Kennedy's religion did not dictate his policies, and neither will Barack Obama's.
The rumor of 'secret Muslim' is untrue, but more importantly, it's already been proven that his religion is irrelevant. Only his ability to "uphold the Constitution" and do what is best for America is important.
Those who religion is the relevant criterion seek to undermine the Constitution of this country.
Just read what Mike Hucakbee has to say about it:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/15/579265.aspx
Seriously, our Constitution avoids the mention of God for a freaking reason. The founders had a big problem with the head of the Church of England.
--
Toro
just, really, really, really, really, really opinionated
He's a member of a bigoted, ethnocentric, racist CHRISTIAN church.
-Styopa
BTW, even if you ignore all the connections to a religeon that is hostile to our form of law, that's some serious foreign influence. It's pretty bad having a president who has unusual personal feelings toward some other part of the world.
"Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them."
Is that the euphemistic version of "he never takes a stand on anything?"
I'm not a McCain fan, but it makes me wonder why when Obama is wishy washy, his zealots say he just has the great ability to discuss ideas without adopting them, but when McCain says it, he's now a "Old man without a plan."
I don't care who you bag on, but come on, give equal air time, and call a spade a spade regardless if a Christian Fundamentalist is holding it or a Muslim is hold it.
If you were really fair, you'd be like me, an equal opportunity hater.. I stand up for what is right, not what the TV talking heads or Apple commercials tell me to do.
He's also a college professor (constitional law) and a community organizer.
I get a different read off Obama. Some people judge their success by how much they can do for themselves other people judge their success by how much they can do for others.
McCain, the read I get off him is that he's doing it partially out of force of habit and partially because he likes being the big dog in the room. Obama, though, strikes me as different. I get the sense that he judges his success based on how much he can do for others.
You may be right that Obama will turn out to be just like every other politician but I get a different read off him. I get the sense of a sincerity and seriousness that has been lacking in pretty much every politician I've ever listened to from Reagan, through the Clintons and Bushes all the way up to McCain and Palin.
With Obama, I get the sense that he tailors what he says to the voters but that there is an underlying substance. With McCain, for example, I get the sense that he's saying what will get votes without regard to any underlying truth or substance.
I get the impression that Obama understands that just keeping poor people fed and sheltered isn't going to solve the problem: that, ultimately, advances in both science/technology and our understanding of society will be required to solve the problem of poverty.
Obama, the college professor, want to find new solutions to problems of poverty because Obama, the community organizer, judges himself on the basis of how much he can do for others.
Unlike most people, I dug up the entire reverend wright sermon and watched the whole thing rather than just selected sound bytes. I don't really get the indignation that everyone seems to be suffering. I found the monologue to be interesting and entertaining. I'm a white, 30 year old male and I thought he was more entertaining and approachable than most of the preachers I've met.
23% of the Texas population are morons.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
I have a feeling that about half of these Texans are well aware that he calls himself a Protestant. It's that they don't believe him. It's not as if Nation of Islam and other Muslim organizations don't have footholds among African-American communities.
Not to say that I think he's a Muslim, mind; I just see why they're suspicious.
Protestants hunting down Catholics and Catholics hunting down Protestants.
Africa. 52% of it's entire population Christian.
you're full of shit, boy.
Bah. This is just another one of those polls they do so people on the coasts can get their USRDA of smug. First of all, it's a self-selected internet-only poll, which tells you right off the top we're not dealing with science here. It oversamples young people, Democrats, hispanics, and people without a college education. Also, it doesn't make the distinction between people who just don't know anything about him and people who think he's lying.
"Obama is a muslim" could be a brand new movie from the same crew who filmed "Weapons of mass destruction in iraq".
The government has to subsidize farmers, pay them NOT to grow food, and store the excess, including cabbage, because the prices are so low.
If the farmers had to pay a living wage to the food pickers, the price would naturally elevate to the point the government might not have to subsidize them anymore.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
You can thank Fox News[youtube.com] and John McCain[youtube.com] for this
Easy mistake to make since his father was a Kenyan Muslim.
Nothing wrong with that, but if you make a big thing about people mistakenly believing Obama Jr. to be Muslim then you need also to explain why that's a problem. Are you saying there's something wrong with being a Muslim? If not, then this whole story is a waste of everyone's time.
I'd say 100%.
The best public high school in Illinois (ask Newsweek), New Trier in Winnetka has the highest per pupil spending of any school in Illinois. The city and downstate schools can't match that, plus they have to deal with problems New Trier doesn't:
Kids who's parents can't afford computers
Kids whose parents can't afford breakfast
Kids whose parents have problems paying for school supplies
Kids whose parents public and school libraries can't afford books.
New Trier has a fencing club...fencing, at a public high school. They have a radio station, they have a newspaper. They got all kinds of shit that gives them HUGE advantages over kids in poorer schools. Don't believe me? Head to the Universities
Take a look at who works on the Uni newspapers or uni radio/tv stations, or is involved in student goverment It's the kids from places like new trier. The first thing a Uni newspaper/radio station/tv station will ask someone who wants to write/work for them is "what did you do at your schools newspaper/radio station/tv station"
Hell even when it comes to computer programming or IT, those New Trier type kids are ahead. Remember Robert Tappan Morris, his daddy got him a shell account as a kid, so by the time he hit MIT he was years ahead of say some poor kid from bumfuck Illinois who might not have ever touched a computer and had no Dad that worked for Bell Labs or something.
"described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system"
Yeah, but WHAT belief system?
Obama is seldom consistent on anything (ex: tax policy, first its 250k, then 200K, then 150K, etc), other than his desire for power. Its the one consistent thread in his political career.
Furthermore, 20 years of sitting in a hate-preaching church without finding it objectionable calls into question Obama fundamental judgement, or else Obama's cynicism (it was politically convenient for him to attend that church for "street cred" after being an Ivy League lawyer and now living in a 1.6 million dollar mansion while his brother lives in abject poverty in Africa and his aunt whoim he mentions in his book is on welfare in Boston).
He has had questionable associations with many questionable people throughout his career, adding up to questionable judgement for somone being elected to the highest executive office int he government. Its worrisome that he may come into office with the shadiest cast of characters since Nixon.
Obama's cynicism is especially evident in the way he treated Rev Wright in the campaign by "throwing him under the bus". This leads one to beleive that either Obama is embarassed by the exposure of his true beleif (bad core beliefs), or more likely, that Obama will do whatever is expedient to get elected (no core beliefs other than his will to power).
Perhaps if you'd quit buying the hype and look at actual words and deeds (Not the promises, and "inspirational delivery" and the grand "idea" that he represents), you'd not excuse the man so much - he is extremely flawed, and will be harmful to the US
McCain is flawed too (those are off topic in this discussion, but are numerous and readily available on the internet), and likewise, McCain if elected will be harmful to the US.
I find it sad that these two are the "best" our political apparatus can come up with.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
Rev. Wright is a black supremacist. No amount of dumocrap propaganda can get around the fact. And had the repub's rev been a white supremacist, the media would not have allowed a reply.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Darn right, I was circumcised as an infant and turned out to be hypospadic (with meatal stenosis). Hypospadic boys should never be circumcised as it prevents the most effective fixes to the problems involved. Apparently the doctor didn't notice, though I suspect what he did was use the circumcision as cover to try to fix worse hypospadias that my parents didn't notice. My circ is unusual.
And the doctors never actually gave my parents information on what was going on. When problems cropped up they just said things, like oh we need to operate or we need to regularly dilate. I only found out shit as an adult
Fuckers, which is why I am opposed to circumcision (though I'm not a member of those no-circ groups)
Um, you haven't read his book, have you? The first one, titled "Dreams from my Father", describes in detail how he was referred to Rev. Wright's church and what it meant to him, and described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system. The second one, "The Audacity of Hope", was named after the name of the first sermon he heard at Rev Wright's church and discusses the progression of his thinking and approach to government and belief.
Are these books written just because he felt the urge to write multiple autobiographies by the age of 47 or because he might have had some political objectives (such as improving his electability) in mind when he wrote them?
It's hardly a far fetched idea that politicians tend to write autobiographical works only for the sake of building the kind of public persona that they can sell to the public at election day.
He may be accused of a lot of things, but lack of full disclosure CAN NOT be one of them.
Only if publication of some hollow and lousy excuses qualifies as full disclosure. At some point he was comparing the public comments of his pastor to the comments that his white grandmother allegedly made in private. Quite a lousy excuse, I would say.
His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
You are making the rather bold assumption that he is being honest. To me it's like believing that a commercial you have seen on TV-shop is full disclosure. Politicians are in general are not very honest, especially when they are campaigning. I don't think that what they say on the campaign trail or write in their autobiographies should be taken very seriously.
IMO, the best way to judge a politician is by their their associations and their past decisions and votes, which I think places Obama firmly in the radical camp.
My perception of him is that he is the kind of "pragmatic" politician who says (and even writes an autobiography or two) what's necessary to get elected. He knows very well that if he starts to honestly tell the public how much he agrees with Wright, then his electability goes down to zero. IIRC, even his former pastor noted that he is just saying what's necessary to get elected.
If Obama gets elected, then it will be very interesting to see to which degree he will act out on his radical beliefs. Especially interesting is what kind of judges he will appoint, since that is one of the few things that might reveal a president's true beliefs, especially if his party get a filibuster proof majority in the senate. My conjecture is that if he gets a chance to nominate someone to SCOTUS, then that person will have a belief system that is rather similar to his former pastor and church.
Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them.
Why is this? Is it only because liberals are never found guilty by the media elite because of an association?
Are Obama also engaging in discussions with the extreme right or is it with the left side only?
Can a white republican freely discuss with white racialists without being tarnished by these associations? Just as a friendly exchange of ideas between people of very different beliefs?
He especially values differing opinions, which I like as something that will help prevent any "failures of imagination" in his administration.
He seemed to have a quite sensitive skin when Don Imus said something "incendiary".
Rev. Wright to him was a focal point for many disparate beliefs and influences, and despite some incendiary language helped him see many issues more clearly.
What incendiary language? To me Wright's language seemed to be completely in line with the church's BLT teachings. The church has also had at least ano
Artificial Intelligence? Certainly not. Artificial Ignorance? Most likely.
While your spelling is spot-on (with the exception of "mathmatically" and...wait, I just reread your post and your spelling sucks as bad as your logic), your word choice betrays that you are not human but a (poorly coded) attempt at artificial intelligence. A short list of your word misuses:
As if you're rational enough to understand the true explanation for why "some people are dumb enough to think a half-million-dollar mortgage only costs $1600 a month", here goes: some really greedy people in congress (barny frank, chris dodd, nancy pelosi, and some other demons who sit quite near them) thought it would gain them a lot of votes if some of the poor people they've enslaved with their "depend on us for everything and we'll take care of you from cradle-to-grave" political strategy of the last three decades were able to buy a house five or six times bigger/nicer than they had any reason to think they would EVER be able to afford (and yes these people are stupid, having gone to (and in many cases dropped out of) the schools that were spawned by the aforementioned political strategy.) The short-term goal of this "strategy" (read scheme) was to make gullible voters they could "buy" with these gifts more likely to vote for them and their evil ilk, but the long-term goal of these machinations was to completely level the socioeconomic structure of the United States and bring down the "rich, greedy capitalists" they so hate (ignoring the irony of how rich they are themselves.)
And there you have it. You won't believe it (hell, you won't understand it!) but there it is.
Is the real story here that 77% have it wrong. Two muslim fathers. Grew up in Indonesia. At the very least he has mulsim roots. Looks like a duck, talks like a duck, must be a duck.
Black Liberation Theology has only been brought up in the right wing blogs and talk radio. So no, there hasn't been a shred of full disclosure in that regard. I haven't read the part of audacity of hope where he talks about believing in a god that participates fully in the destruction of the white enemy. Maybe you have a page number for that? or maybe that is only found in Cone's work on Black Liberation Theology and not in AoH, nor any of Obama's speeches?
That is the lack of transparency and lack of REPORTING by journalist that is poisoning this election. The hard left simply equates Obama's BLT beliefs with what they deem to be equally radical positions on the right and gives him a pass. THe difference is, the "equal radical positions" on the right are things like opposing partial birth abortions, or being Catholic, or being basically any practicing Christian. These are not views that are supported in equal numbers by the populace, and I doubt you would get any serious debate that BLT, especially as preached by Rev. Wright, equals any practicing Christian.
These belief systems are not equivalent. Every religion is not the FSM, Scientology, etc. There are meaningful differences and the Daily Kosdot ought to be intelligent enough to realize this.
Well, he's got more than just a bunch of Texans fooled; moamar kadaffi thinks so too! But as one local fellow I heard put it so succinctly (but with a Southern accent, so your kneejerk opinion of him is certainly that he's a fool): "A man doesn't forget what religion he is."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I (note: this is the "long" version, and the YouTube poster attempts to assert that BHO's statement immediately after being corrected by the interviewer (at time index 1:23) indicates he was being "sarcastic" -- but anyone who has ever heard a human being speak before would have to agree that he was backpedaling rather than being glib (it's clear from the amount of studdering and stammering he's doing in the interview that the entire topic makes him EXTREMELY NERVOUS!!)
While I don't think he's a "practicing Muslim", I'd frankly much rather he were that than what he appears to agree with based on the lunatic rantings of his "religious mentor" IRreverend wright.
Oh, and here's one I've somehow missed up to this point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF3OzyywY9Y
Obama was born a muslim. according to Sharia law that means he is still a muslim.
For starters, if you're a christian, and actually follow the ten commandments, you avoid the pledge of allegiance altogether since it's obviously a form of idolatry. Remember all that stuff in ancient rome with the christians being thrown to the lions? One of the chief causes of conflict was the fact that the early christians refused to observe the state and emperor in their prayers. US christians of today mostly seem to have some sort of amalgam religion that conflates patriotism and piety.
As for the flag lapel pins, etc., they're a ridiculous example of peer pressure. Why do politicians wear them? To show their patriotis? They're public servants of the United States of america at the highest level and, in controlling its government, in a very real sense they _are_ the USA, patriotism should be implicit. Where are the rules that they need to wear a flag written? They're not. A group of them started doing it, then the rest copied them, and they keep doing it because they'd be looked down on if they didn't. White shoes after labor day ridiculous high-school nonsense!
You mean like "we'll tax 5% of the people and give it to the other 95%" class warfare thing?
I'm interested. Other than a potential tax credit for the poorest a lá Milton Freaking Friedman (socialist if there ever was one, right?), can you point to any kind of program where anybody in the 95% will get direct cash disbursements?
I'm also not aware of any tax proposals from Obama where 95% will escape paying taxes.
If you want to argue against progressive taxation, that's one thing. But these other things look like hyperbole or sloppy generalizations to me.
Tweet, tweet.
Yankees just don't much about the rest of the world. That insularness extends to their regions.
It is good that there aren't any embarrassing videos of Sarah Palin and a pastor asking to protect her from witchcraft or that she at least used to go to a church that believes in speaking in tongues or anything. I would find that a lot more disturbing than anything I've heard Wright say.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
> 23 percent of Texans are convinced that Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama is a Muslim. Only 45 percent of the people polled correctly identified Obama as a Protestant Christian
There is a wile logical fallacy in this sentence. Yes, 23 percent of texans think Obama is a muslim and they are right, because that is what they are thinking and saying and they are free to do so. In contrast, it is per definitionem impossible to "correctly identify" Obama as a protestant christian, because there is absolutely no way to tell if a person's professed religion is his or her true religion he or she holds in the mind (provided the person actually belives in any kind of utmost being, which is not a given nowadays)!
To accept that Obama is a protestant christian just because he publishes so would be equal to thinking that Joe Stalin was the greatest stratagem of all times, because he used the title "generalissimus" in the soviet press.
Every politician is a liar per definition, therefore their words and statements have a value of exactly nil. If we think McCain is an american patriot and a person under God, a heir of Reagan, that's because of his actions, not because of his words. He flew many combat missions in US Air Force, which is a behaviour traditionally associated with american patriotism and he endured years of torture at the hand of moste brutal communists and such moral resistance is traditionally associated with a grace of God for the righteous.
Where are the actions from Obama? What has he done for USA, acts, great deeds that could prove he enjoys the grace of God, as expected from a true adherent?
Poll finds 23 percent of Texans are fucking idiots.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp
The context makes it clear. This was nothing like what is being suggested happened.
Braindead morons at slashdot care!
No, Islamic crusades have already happened - in fact, "crusades" were the first thing that happened, starting with Muhammad times. Don't expect the development of Islam to parallel the development of Christianity - they're vastly different religions, and, probably even more importantly, they have developed in very different political and social environments.
Right or wrong, they'll all be drowned in the sea in a short while!
-- thinkyhead software and media
...so we'd have even more unskilled people who would have to do those crap jobs!
-- thinkyhead software and media
People latch on to things that reinforce their beliefs and attitudes. The cultures and personalities that are attracted to Fundamentalism or Objectivism, or any prepackaged Ism are simply looking to obtain easy authority, a sense of superiority, and divine (or metaphysical) justification for their untenable attitudes.
Of course, what's good or not is ultimately justified by one's peers - if those around you think it's okay, it's okay - if they think it's bad, it's bad. Socially-dependent people adapt their attitudes to suit the culture they find themselves in.
To get beyond the literal interpretation of scripture or the rigid structure of a philosophy takes some real brains and experience, and a sensitivity to subtlety which most people seem to lack - perhaps because they're too downtrodden to rise above. To interpret something like Genesis (which is such a simple and obvious allegory!) as if it were the literal truth is just plain intellectual folly, and frankly... it harms the mind and poisons the heart.
But it goes on and on, because ugly hearts are oppressing good hearts by way of mob oversight.
-- thinkyhead software and media
To disagree with all your points would require a lot more clarification that I have to go on, but I do disagree with your use of the term religion and whether the beliefs rather than the statements of belief matter.
Religion is a general term that refers to a set of beliefs and practices, which may include having spiritual beliefs or faith in something bigger than yourself. Having faith is also generic, however, and has to do with trusting rather than believing. Both terms are too generic to condemn or condone alone. Arguing that "People who have religion don't have faith; they just have religion" is an exercise in semantic debate rather than addressing the real points.
Based on his statements, Obama does not hold the same beliefs as the majority of those who call themselves Evangelical Christians. Very few would say the same for McCain.
What someone says they believe isn't as important as what they actually believe, because while statements may convince enough voters to get someone elected, they don't necessarily reflect what someone will do after they are elected. To take a couple of examples:
Obama questions which parts of the Bible should shape public policy by pointing to Leviticus as "suggests slavery is okay" when most Evangelicals would view the same book as dealing with those in authority under non-applicable Old Testament law and not as an endorsement of slavery at all. If he disagrees with the majority of Evangelicals on that, questioning what he believes about the rest of the Bible is a legitimate issue for many, particularly where it concerns the central text of their belief and what legislation he might support, justices he might appoint and what he might veto
In the end, it is the beliefs of the candidates that are absolutely critical to voters, rather than the statements they make for the sake of getting power. Disputing based on terminology, particularly religion as opposed to faith, does not further the discussion.
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
If you go through it, your link shows the exact same transcript of the relevant portion of the interview as mine did. The difference? Your source makes assumptions about why Obama said what he said, because of course the Messiah could never, ever lie, make a mistake, or mislead anyone at any time, ever. That would be blasphemy. Instead, it must have just been that the evil white interviewer was forcing words into his mouth.
I get why some people would think that it was a misunderstanding and not a slip, but if it wasn't a slip, he would have said something along the lines of "John McCain has never alleged that I was / am a Muslim" not "has not talked about my Muslim faith".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The Evil Xenophobes Are Stupid. Fair dinkum. I mean: a) he's not, and b) even if he were, who cares?! For fuck's sake, 23% of Texas, grow the fuck up.
Athy, athier, athiest.
I believe Obama is Christian. Because I heard him say he is.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Can the parent be modded up any higher? How about a new category, like "Perfect Post". I'm really glad I scrolled down far enough to see someone else who's actually read enough about Barack Obama, including his own words, to form a valid opinion here. That seems to be severely lacking here in America, even here in Slashdot, as evidenced by other posts in this same thread.
One of the biggest problems with American democracy is the perpetuation of the fallacy, that one can form a valid opinion on any subject, without any research into that subject. Most of the time, what you have is NOT a valid opinion -- it is merely an agreement with someone else whose opinion you may trust, good or bad. Research references are one thing, but wholesale agreement with a random "expert", whose background and research you are not familiar with, is just ignorance with a better label.
I can say one thing in the favor of quoting random "experts". Consistently agreeing with ignorant knee-jerk bigots, like certain Texas pastors, or Fox News, clearly identifies you as a bigot. I am familiar with a variety of bigot media, unfortunately because my own racist family members quote it to me all the time. So, when you quote the bigot media, even without proper attribution, I can easily identify you. Thanks for the self-labeling!
If you haven't done your own research, please don't vote. The other fallacy of American democracy is that every vote, no matter how backwards or ignorant the voter, should count equally. In other words, if you can fool most of the people, just long enough for a single voting period, you should win. You can clearly see the results of this fallacy in all elections involving George Herbert Walker Bush. Drink beer with him as he watches Dick, or now Palin, push the button. I'm sure you'll have a great time, with the last beer ever.
Except there is no basis for believing that he is a Muslim at all. It defies all sense unless you have a sense of reality that is a cross between The Manchurian Candidate and Austin Powers.
Do you really think he would have been able to come all this way as a crypto-Muslim? Fooling his own grandparents at the age 7 and beyond? The so-called slip is a basic subjunctive tense.
It has nothing to do with being a messiah or such. I have disagreements with Obama, particularly on his health care plan: I actually think that both HRC and JM are, in their own ways, more right than BO is (HRC is right that BO will not insure everyone; JM is right to seek to uncouple health insurance from employment.) That the main reasons people like you come up with for not voting for Obama are tinfoil-hat material is what is really at stake.
My main reason for not voting for him is that he's a socialist / communist who'll do irreparable damage to our country. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to live in the Soviet States of America.
The Muslim part is just a matter of "seriously, how can you trust this guy?" on the side. And "Fooling his own grandparents at the age of 7" -- who says they were fooled? Do you really think that they couldn't be lying too? And yes, it does say in the Qu'ran that it's ok to lie if it furthers the cause of Islam . Is he a terrorist plant? I doubt it. COULD he be? Yes.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
His white, Kansan grandma might secretly be a subversive Muslim communist collaborator?
Good God, you've lost the plot.
I said he's probably NOT a terrorist agent. However, he knows as well as everyone else that a Muslim has less chance of becoming president of the US than a hobo who never made it past the 3rd grade. Perfect reason for friends and family to lie, so that he can get elected. Politicians lie all the time to get elected.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
20 and 30 years ago you could make a decent living building houses, among other things. Today, only a few skilled trades (plumbers, electricians) on all the home construction sites I've seen in the last 15 years even speak english. Wages are down, profits are up (or at least were up until the sky fell recently), and the home buyer didn't get a dime of benefit from all this. I had friends and neighbors who had to leave the building trades 20 years ago since they could no longer make a decent American-standard-of-living income at it.
I know where to buy a driver's license (on DMV stock and anti-counterfeit laminate) and social security card for $300. We just hired house painters and were told by the contractor the actual workers were all legal -- bullshit, not a damn one of them spoke english. But their papers were in order.....
I know street corners you can still drive by today, with a lot of the illegals gone back to Mexico, where you pull up in a pickup and tell 2 0r 3 or 4 or whatever to hop in and off you go to the jobsite. This isn't stoop labor!!! It is simply taking jobs American citizens actually used to do.
Agricultural labor is different and always has been mostly non-native, whether legal or illegal.
Stack overflow.
My question to you is - have you read about what the church he attended for so many years actually believes? One usually does not attend a church for 20 years unless you actually believe some of what the church holds to.
Secondly, I find it interesting that you basically are willing to accept whatever Obama says in his book or says on the campaign trail. Have you ever considered looking at other sources of information other than an autobiography? For example, if McCain wrote an autobiography or two, and I cited that as my main source of information about why I thougth McCain was such a great guy, would that be credible? I kinda doubt it.
Whether or not McCain shied away from challenging his beliefs is, IMO, irrelevant. I am honestly not a fan of McCain, other than the fact that he did go through some very hard times for his country, and that is to be respected (interestingly, Obama appears to have no respect for anything - not McCain's beliefs, not McCain's age, not McCain's life, not McCain's bipartisanship [something that annoys me - McCain is too liberal for me], not even McCain's servitude of his country. Why can't Obama respect something other than himself?)
His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
You state that as if it means something.
An open book . . . written by him, about him. Nope, no bias or the possibility of lying there.
Do you believe everything that easily? Or just the stuff from the people you decide to like?
Troll? You /. kids have lost your fucking minds!
(THAT is a troll)
Not a single thing said there is untrue. And it is sad that third party candidates get no consideration even when they are far superior to the two sub-standard politicians the big parties have delivered.
"I'm sure if he was Catholic you people would be saying or implying he was a child molester."
Only if his particular Catholic church actually had that in their theological statement. Have you read the theological statement of the church? Have you heard anything Wright has said? Or are you just going based on what you see or read in the media, Obama's words/books/ads, etc. If the latter, you're only getting one side (the Obama side). If the former, I would be interested to know your take on the church's theological statements. (Wikipedia has information on it, even, it's not that hard to find).
0% of that 23% got around to registering to vote.
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
i love how a valid opinion in your mind is simply one that agrees with yours. i guess you take a lot of shit for granted and i'm thankful that people seen through your shit and didn't mod you up. of course, all republicans are psychopaths and retards and your little messiah is going to set everything straight and every word out of his mouth is honorable.
oh, what's that? he's already backing down from his campaign promises and he hasn't even taken office yet? that's a damn shame. i hope you remember your own down shit next election about who does what and why. you're going to have a real eye opening over the next four years. hope you enjoy it, bitch.