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DTV Coupon Program Out of Money
Thelasko writes "It appears that the US Government's digital converter box program is running out of money. If you sign up after the program runs out of money, you will receive your voucher if the program receives more funding. Older analog televisions will no longer work without a converter box after February 17."
pork pork pork needs more pork ^_^
captcha: retyping
New TVs are not that expensive. Even pensioners could buy a new one. I don't think the government should be paying for any of this.
The converter boxes aren't that expensive, about as much as a new game, sure it sucks to be forced to buy new equipment but there are other things one can do besides watch TV if they are so unwilling to suffer the cost of the boxes.
The converter boxes aren't that expensive, about as much as a new game
Tell that to someone living on $500 a month.
For a sec there I read "DTV Coupon Program Out of Memory".
>_>
This is just another item in a long list of stuff that I'm happy to be rid of. Just canceled my cable TV, and no intention of watching shows anymore. I'd rather buy DVDs/BluRay or rent new stuff from Netflix, etc. I can say that I'm quite happy to get rid of the cable box. I've still got broadband, and that's all I'll need.
"The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
You only need a converter box if you get your television via over-the-air broadcast and don't have a digital tuner built in. If you get your television via cable (with a cable box or no), satellite, FiOS, U-Verse, etc., you don't need a dtv converter box. On Feb. 17, nothing will change for you. If you get OTA broadcasts, and you're unsure if your television needs a box, if you have the ability to type in a hyphen or decimal point in the channel number on your TV, you hava digital tuner. Fo example, in the Los Angeles area market, if you can type in 11.1 (11-1), you will get Fox in both digital and HD via OTA broadcast. Your best bet if your'e unsure, however, is to look up if your TV has a digital tuner online on the equipment manufacturer's website.
In many ways this program is a disaster - it would be nice to see a Washington Post story about the tens of thousands of individuals like myself who are essentially being DENIED COUPONS because the FCC refuses refuses to let us get back in line after our initial coupons either never arrived, or expired due to lack of available converter boxes early in the program.
The FCC has never offered any reasonable justification for this abusive policy which runs contrary to the very intent of the program. Every coupon is numbered and they can tell whether coupons sent to a home expired without being used. There is no reasonable justification for denying people a second chance now that reasonable converter boxes are now available. This is government arrogance by a handful of petty bureaucrats at it's worse.
They will work fine for Cable TV, and as monitors for video games, DVD's, VCR's etc. The only thing that happens on 2009-02-17 is that the local broadcasters will stop providing an analogue signal for these sets to pick up via antenna.
I'm worried now. Before the switch to digital signals it was easy to sway the unwashed masses to any message you broadcasted. We even went so far as to buy the poor digital converters because we knew they couldn't afford the brainwashing tool for themselves. Put the terrorist threat up to red until we get more converters.
This summer, Congress will conduct hearings on the massive waste and fraud in the program surrounding scores of bogus vendors each selling tens of thousands of fictitious boxes, all with "valid" coupons.
Ibid.
REALLY!!?!?! This is the first I've heard of that!
Why hasn't anyone told me???!?!?!?
Actually, I want to know why my cable company is so anxious to tell me through ads on cable channels. If I have cable, and can see the ads, then the change DOESN'T AFFECT ME. Has no one ever heard of the concept of "Target Audience"?
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Older analog televisions will no longer receive over the air transmissions without a converter box after February 17. If you have analog cable, it will continue to work as long as the cable companies use analog.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Let's listen to what Commander Data has to say on the subject:
"That particular form of entertainment did not last much beyond the year Two-Thousand Forty."
Let's just move the clock back a couple of years and be done with it.
The converter boxes aren't that expensive, about as much as a new game, sure it sucks to be forced to buy new equipment but there are other things one can do besides watch TV if they are so unwilling to suffer the cost of the boxes.
This is true, my grandmother bought one for $30. Not too expensive. However, when I came home for Christmas, she asked me to hook the box up. She needed the TV to record soap operas on her VCR while she was at work. That is all she used it for (we're talking technologically inept middle of nowhere country folk here). Ok, so I run the coaxial cable into the back of the converter, then put the RCA cables into the input on the back of the VCR (which then turned into a coaxial cable to the back of her TV as her TV is 20 years old and that's all it has). Everything is working fine but as a side result, she can't program different channels because the converter box determines the channels. Ok, not a big deal to her.
... I tried a few other VCRs at my parent's house and they all seem to do it.
But then we record something and I notice a very peculiar thing with the color. I seem to recall that if you had put a DVD signal through a VCR, the color would modulate so that people couldn't dupe videos (or maybe there is a technical restriction). Anyway, she said she would put up with it but after watching 10 minutes of TV I wanted to throw the damned thing through the window.
So tell me, how do you record on these things to a VCR with no color modulation
My work here is dung.
Does anyone know do these converter boxes work for cable operators who don't provide an analog signal, specifically verizon fios?
New TVs are not that expensive.
New TVs are expensive. If you're living on less than $800 a month, that $100+ is going to be felt. Trust me. This is obvious to anyone who hasn't had money supplied to them by their parents for their entire lives...
So the FCC made around 20 billion dollars auctioning off the spectrum, but only allocated 1.3 billion for the coupon program? At $40 /coupon, that's around 32 million coupons. I'm guessing there's more non-cable televisions than that. Something seems quite a bit wrong with the amount allocated.
AccountKiller
So...is there a way I can *return* my voucher? I ordered one, thinking I was going to use it for my old tv, but then I went out and actually bought a nice new tv for which I don't need the converter box. I'm sure only a precious few people would actually bother to return the voucher once they discover they aren't going to use it, but it seems there ought to be a mechanism in place. I don't want to tie up this money indefinitely, even if it is just a drop in the bucket.
-G
Their may be a grammatical error, misspeling, or evn a typo in this post.
Kinda puts a damper on the "One Cent Digital Converter" promotions we're now seeing. I just got one from TigerDirect this morning as a matter of fact. If they were smart they would offer them as rebates instead of coupons, then they wouldn't have to pay out nearly as much.
Oh no! It's the end of the world. Every one run and scream and holler for more money!
O.k. I got it out of my system. We don't have DTV and aren't planning on buying a new TV any time soon. We get all our TV on DVD. We purchase entire seasons of shows and then just watch them over and over again. Heck, our movie collection is all DVD and I have no plans on buying a next gen movie player or movies either.
This isn't for any *wired* connection. It's for over-the-air broadcast you get from an antenna. All tvs (that I am aware of) should allow for multiple inputs sources though not much point if you are already paying for better service.
For what it's worth, this is what the site reports when you try to sign up.
We have determined that your household is eligible to participate in this program. However, at this time program funding is not currently available to fulfill your request. Your application has been placed on a waiting list. You do not need to apply again. When and if funds become available, coupon requests will be fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis.
It's not about being affordable. It's about the government mandating broadcast companies move to a digital medium for no apparent reason. If I had rabbit ears I'd want them to reimburse me too for any money spent since it was their idea.
Instead of doing this, why not push for fiber to the home so we can run TV, Phone, and Internet all over the same line?
I ordered my coupons January 1st 2008, the first day they became available.
I have been using my boxes now for 10 months.
Some people are just stupid.
or people will start to read books.
If the converter box coupons help keep perfectly good CRT TVs out of the wastestream it sounds like money well spent.
(Relevent report on that from 60 Minutes)
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
The bad part about digital TV is the method of transmission they used is inferior in some ways to analog TV. It requires a very strong signal to get any video at all, and it's very suspectible to multipath interference. Analog TV would degrade gracefully, so that if you didn't get a strong signal you could at least hear it, and see black and white video. Digital TV is all-or-none. Also, portable TV antennas no longer work (at least, not while you're moving), so you can't stick one in your car or your Sony Watchman. Digital broadcast TV is a pain at this point...
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Last year when this was first announced, I applied for my coupons on 1/1/08. I've been blogging about this for a year and a half at http://williambryson.blogspot.com/ (shameless plug), it's no surprise.
WTF! What you're describing sounds like Macrovision ACP, I hadn't known that this was part of ATSC but I guess I'm not surprised.
ATSC hands MPEG-LA the patent rights to all broadcast TV video, and Dolby Labs the patent rights to all broadcast TV audio channels. For legal means to achieve what you want, you are likely screwed. The soap opera rights-owner is having the TV broadcaster set a "not allowed to be recorded" flag.
If you wish to potentially break the law (consult an attorney), you may be able to put an 'image stabilizer' or other device inline after the box.
This program needs a BAILOUT. Rush it through the congress.
I wonder if this has anything to do with it?
Scammers Exploit DTV Coupon Program
I'm glad I got my converter box before this happened. It's nice having a clear signal :]
The DTV coupon program must have have some scratches or a little interference and now it's locked up.
(Seriously though, the inability of most digital signals to absorb minor interference is an annoyance and a concern of mine. What used to be a minor distortion in the video or audio - a scratch or some fuzziness - now usually results in locking up or severe mangling of the output.)
I know what they are intended for, but not all cable operators still provide an analog signal even on a wired connection, I was wondering if these boxes would convert a wired digital connection, probably not.
Btw a troll mod was a bit harsh
Gawd, I can't believe people still get this wrong after all the publicity on this. No wonder they are running out of money, they are probably sending coupons and rebates to people not using antenna reception when they don't need to.
FYI, if you subscribe to a cable service, they are not going to stop sending you the RF-over-cable/analog signal. They may try to nudge you to move to a digital converter box but even then, they will provide the digital conversion and you don't need to pay $40+ for one the government is rebating.
Is our education system that screwed up people don't understand this? FYI, that's a rhetorical question, I know the answer.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
The application process was way too lenient. I applied for and was determined eligible to receive one of these coupons and it's supposed to arrive this week or next. I indicated on the form that I do have satellite tv service for my household, but I couldn't indicate on the form that the converter would just be for my crappy garage TV that actually does get an analog feed from my dual-tuner satellite receiver, and I only need the converter for the rare case where I may want to switch to local channels from my rooftop antenna if someone else is already watching something on the 2nd tuner that I don't care to watch. I can definitely afford the converter box without the coupon, and I anticipate that I will rarely use it, but that won't stop me from redeeming the coupon unless maybe if I can get a tax credit for donating it back :)
...landfills from discarded CRT tubes with mercury from our CFL-backlit flat panel displays instead.
Mercury is much spiffier than old fashioned lead anyway.
You have a good point.
After getting my first computer, I watched TV less. Nowadays, I only watch 3 hours per week - mostly cartoons.
Maybe some people will find that they don't really need TV in their lives.
Thanks, I forgot to mention that in the summary. There are a lot of myths surrounding the transition and I don't want to inadvertently start any more.
Posting as AC as I am a mod today,
Thelasko
as soon as the coupons dry up, the $50 converters will drop to $9.99. The coupon program was one of the early bailouts.
There's always radio. Works pretty well for emergency broadcasts. In fact, thinking about it, there seemed to be this "emergency broadcast system" a ways back. Wonder if it still works.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
We hear Europeans complain about funded mandates because they are jealous that our government is paying for legislation they decided to enact, rather than requiring us to buy new televisions. Or are we hearing how spoiled they are with "New TV's aren't that expensive!" ..Fucking hypocrites.
one of these converter boxes could be used with cable to down-convert the digital channels to analog without monthly rental fees.
True. But, that would be good for the consumer, and in the event that you were not aware, the Internet Services dept. of your local cable company isn't the only division that's trying to fuck the customer every way possible.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
I waited a while to get my converter boxes, specifically so I'd be able to get one with analog pass through. Do the coupon eligible boxes on the market now have any other features worth wanting? S-video perhaps?
The Insignia box I have has a "zoom" button on it for changing the cropping. Strange thing is, I can only select between a full screen mode that is cropped on the left and right and a letter boxed mode which has black bars around all four sides. Clearly, that's ridiculous.
The proper thing to do is to have the letter boxed fill the screen up from left to right, and only have black bars on the top and bottom. I imagine this is just some ridiculous bug that snuck in in the rush to get the box on the shelves at Best Buy before all the coupon money ran out. Has anyone bought one of these recently and observed correct behavior?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
How much does the program need and how does it stack up against the cost of a single cruise missile?
I guess the government ain't really about giving out any of the billions of dollars it's going to get from selling off parts of the Spectrum so that the poor people they're pulling the rug from under can still watch TV.
Woo and yay!
If the FCC allowed the television broadcasters to sell/use that spectrum for something other than analog TV the transition would have already happened. This is a very valuable slice of the spectrum and there is tons of market demand to make it available for other use. People may not care about DTV in and of itself, but they definitely care about what the transition will pave the way for, and it is absolutely in the public interest to do so.
Furthermore, the broadcast flag was shot down in court and each time it went to congress. It is not required for converters to implement the flag and AFAIK none of the current crop DTV converters do. The two that I own certainly do not. The horse is already out of the gate here, and Hollywood is going to have a very hard time implementing the broadcast flag now that everyone owns a non-compliant converter.
they came up with this converter box to pay for their hidden agendas.
The best part, I think, is that most converter boxen are $20 after coupon.
How much you wanna bet that, were the coupon $30 instead of $40, most of said boxen prices would still be $20 after coupon?
The whole thing's a money grab at the consumer, and for someone like me who welcomes the change, even I feel a little screwed for two reasons (phrased as questions for emphasis):
This transition is better than nothing, but in classic litigation by lobbyists style, it's riddled with crap beyond belief.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
I assume that they will do what they have done for generations. Have it printed in a newspaper.
There is a lot of confusion about this, but as far as I can tell, your analog television will work *just fine* if you subscribe to cable TV (or at least as well as it always has). This only affects people using over-the-air broadcasts (you know, with rabbit ears and such).
Eventually, cable TV providers will be allowed to drop their analog programming, but some cable companies have already stated that they consider it a competitive advantage that their customers can hook up an extra TV in the garage, bedroom, etc. and get most of the basic channels without having to purchase/rent an expensive digital tuner. For some people, this is an advantage over the satellite option.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
If your TV is so old it doesn't have an RF cable input $5 at Radioshack can give you an adapter to plug the cable connection to the screws for the antenna terminal.
I certainly didn't want digital tv. It just gets worse range and has crappy square things instead of fuzz. Like digital cable it just sort of sucks. Of course I tried to order by converter boxes anyway as I figured I might as well since they were free. DirectTV took the order for the converter boxes, took the coupons, and then canceled the order and never sent me anything or returning my coupons to working condition. The whole thing is one big fuck up IMO.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
The truth of DTV is that it's an excuse to force most of the population to cough up $500-$900 in a short period of time. It creates an artificial demand spike so that a select few corporations can profit from mass-exploitation. The fact that the vouchers are running out just confirms that people don't care about the Great New Wonderful High Definition Quality Orgasmic Display Technology Of Much Goodness BUY IT NOW. And why did it run out of money? Because they told the FCC that everyone wanted new TVs... I mean, who'd want to be saddled with last year's technology, right? Well, that would be us poor mother frackers who don't care to spend that much money for some passive display tech when we could just as easily go and buy a laptop and watch videos on THAT instead. And, big surprise, what's the major advertising point right now on a lot of laptops? Multimedia and a DVD drive. Go. Figure.
I hope television dies right here and now and consumers start downloading massive quantities of video online, choking the crap out of our ISPs and prompting a digital crisis as the commercial infrastructure of the internet burns. Those same corporate interests then will be scrambling to explain to congressional oversight committees why everything went to hell. And the beautiful part is that by strangling the internet, it'll force companies to compete for a limited resource -- they won't be able to ally themselves against consumer interest anymore.
The digital transition means less for television than it does for the future of the internet. Interesting, isn't it? Maybe they'll make a song about it -- "Internet Killed the TV Star?"
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I disagree 100%. Over the past 70 years, the NTSC standard has evolved from a mono sound, black & white picture to include color, stereo sound, second audio program and closed captions. These non-trivial changes were done without breaking backward compatibility with the original standard, not because of government protection, but because of market forces. No reasonable business wants to tick of a large installed base of users, even if starting fresh with a new standard would have been cleaner and easier. That's why Microsoft and Apple try to maintain backward compatibility with each new OS version, even if it means creating an emulation layer. They aren't mandated by the government to do it, they do it because of market forces.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Where the Romans became lax in their greatness, the US gov. is more becoming that which they overthrew.
The pigs are walking upright... Four legs good, Two legs better.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
They never intended for the program to last anyways...they thought it would make the bill pass faster if there was some sort of compensation, and when it was passed,....like all politicians promises....the program vanishes into thin air, and we are left with having to upgrade all our tvs, radios, computers, cars...etc....the big consumer machine continues to grow.
Now maybe my whole take on this is wrong.. but..
Anyone with satelite or cable already is fine. The only people who are going to have issues are those with analog antennas. The converter box or a digital antenna will cost about $30.
I understand $30 is still too much for some people, which is why the government had a program to assist. The problem is the doomsday scenario the media made it out to be that probably caused tens of thousands of people to request a voucher without actually needing it. It took over a year for me to convince my grandmother and my parents that their cable was already digital and they would have no issues, even if their TVs were 8-10 years old. Hell, even people selling TVs a year or two ago were providing confusing information.
Maybe not all cable is digital yet.. I guess I assume since my area has been digital for the past decade+ (small town ohio) that just about everyone should be.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I received my coupon and was prepared to buy a receiver, then I found the antennaweb.org signal tool. It turns out that I, like most people, am not capable of receiving digital TV without a rooftop antenna. Since digital is all-or-nothing reception, you're just left with nothing. I guess I'll be watching absolutely everything on xvid now.
About a month ago I bought a $40 Airlink Analog-To-Digital convertor from Frys, absolutely free with the $40 coupon, not even taxes. It wasn't fancy, but it did the job and our channels came in with absolutely no snow, noise, etc.
Recently I went back to Frys to purchase another for my sister. Well, they didn't have the $40 box in stock, only a $60 box. I asked a Frys employee if they had any $40 boxes and he said no, the manuf. had discontinued that version.
So then I asked, what feature did this box have that I had to pay $20 extra bucks for? Well, it passes the analog signal through, so that if I want to watch analog TV, I can just turn off the converter and flip the channels via the TV instead. Of course, this $20 feature is almost useless right now, since I could just plug the antenna back into the TV instead and every analog channel shows up with noise anyways, and it will be completely useless after February 17th when all analog television broadcasts are shut down.
Yay capitalism.
Also..what are the better brands/models to get?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It seems the new channels you get with DTV are, um, boring. Isn't one of them a weather station, the others being just more PBS programming? No, I didn't expect Comedy Central, etc, but it seems there's no fun incentive to upgrade to digital. You know what, I won't even call it "upgrade". I'll just call it "switchover".
there seemed to be this "emergency broadcast system" a ways back. Wonder if it still works.
The Emergency Alert System has superseded the EBS, and it remains functional in the world of DTV. Ironically though, much of the system depends on analog broadcast radio stations to get messages to television stations. There is work underway to provide emergency messaging by XML.
We have determined that your household is eligible to participate in this program. However, at this time program funding is not currently available to fulfill your request. Your application has been placed on a waiting list. You do not need to apply again. When and if funds become available, coupon requests will be fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis.
Guess I can not watch TV anymore.
That's the exact one we got at radio shack, with the coupon then another 25 bucks. Works a charm, albeit I literally had to duct tape the antenna rabbit ears in the precise location that works right to the wall to keep the signal. Besides that, it's great, best picture ever on this old 19 inch set we have. We picked up a few more channels than what we were getting before with the antenna (we live out in the country), and now we can get PBS! We couldn't before. Besides falling into the "working poor" class that people up and down the thread are commenting on and raging about, (our combined income is around 700/month, we are both sort of semi retired now, living frugally but happy on a farm), we don't watch that much TV, but it's nice to have sometimes and we knew we would need the converter. I certainly don't want to have to pay for a satellite dish and there is no cable out here. My one real extravagance is this dialup network connection, but it isn't that much more to add on to the normal phone bill anyway. What work we do is hard outside work and it is nice to relax in the evenings and having the internet is not only fun but I use it to look up stuff all the time, it helps with our work and lifestyle immensely.
I have no problems with either the digital change over or the coupon deal. I can see freeing up spectrum is a good idea, and making it so the people who still use OTA TV and older sets can still get a signal seems to be one of the more fairer deals the government has done lately for the "people" in general, what with them throwing trillions in bailout money around.
This drives me fucking batshit insane (I work for a small cable co)... I hate these fear mongering pieces of shit for not clarifying this better:
The last sentence should read: " Older analog televisions will no longer work without a converter box OR CABLE TELEVISION after February 17. "
Can all fish swim?
I work in technology in the advertising industry. Every agency demands every campaign is now cross-platform, which means I sit in briefing sessions with the print, out-of-home, and TV people on a regular basis.
The TV people are scared because the desirable demographics, middle- to upper-middle 18-45 yr. olds, are abandoning TV for online. Young males are increasingly losing interest in TV and sports and spending more of their time gaming. The only demo TV has left in substantial numbers are the Baby Boomers.
On top of that, TiVo and other DVRs have been putting a lot of pressure on the TV crowd for several years now, which is why they've started running those annoying banner ads at the bottom of the screen during the program, and have turned every program into a running string of product placements.
Now they're dropping analog signals altogether and forcing everyone to buy converters. A younger person can probably handle the assembly, but why bother when you can watch the episodes you want online or download them via P2P anyway? The Baby Boomers, however, will either balk at the installation (most of them never figured out how to program their VCRs either) or their kids will turn them onto P2P or online video.
I believe that this foolhardy move will be the beginning of the end for television as we know it. Time and demographic change would have done so eventually anyway, but that would have taken another 20 years. It appears that the TV crowd have decided they can't wait that long to shoot themselves in the foot.
I speculate that the only way video will survive in the end is if it becomes interactive on some level, in a choose-your-own-adventure sort of way. It will involve more plot branching and shooting more scenes, and a lot of thought will need to go into it to avoid being too burdensome on the audience, but it will also have its own economies of scale (trunk plot line footage can be re-used many times without losing audience engagement, because the story may take unexpected turns down rabbit holes) and it will be something that you can't pirate because it's real time development.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
With a $40 government subsidy, the cost of converter boxes was guaranteed NOT to drop below $40. If you make the boxes, why leave that sweet government money on the table?
Now that the program money has dried up, maybe we'll actually see $10 or $20 boxes.
We may actually see converter boxes with more features as well. To qualify for the coupon, the boxes had to fall within a minimum/maximum spec set by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration. If you made a box with too many features, then your box was not eligible for the coupon.
-ted
Or perhaps web blogs. Brilliant.
*Go outside* brainwashing foiled.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Curse you Perry the Platypus.
I look forward to February 17, the day they canceled TV.
The top shows I will miss the least:
- that celebrity stalker show where the guy sips from his empty cup and they laugh at gary coleman.
- that show where several groupies whimper for the attention of some guy that wants to find his soul mate on a tv show.
- those medical shows where they discover new permutations of who can sleep with who.
Even if the coupon actually allowed the purchase of a digital converter with digital outputs (digital outputs are prohibited in the program), I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.
All the websites say that if you have an analog tuner you'll need a converter box, but if you have a digital tuner with an antenna you're fine. Well, how the heck do you tell if you have a digital tuner? If I can change stations with a remote control rather than turning a dial, does that mean I have a digital tuner?
I have a 32 inch tube Toshiba that I bought new 2 years ago. So confused...
I have a hard time believing that they are short on money to insure our daily brain washing ;)
Why would they drop the price if, without a converter box, you will be cut off from television? People would pay $100 for a converter box if that was the cheapest available. They know that, because all us analog TV owners will be dead in the water come February 14th, they have us by the genitals.
I wonder what they're really running out of? $40 coupons or money used by redeemed $40 coupons.
When this whole coupon thing first came out, I jumped on it quickly to get my two coupons for two of our four TVs. Unfortunately when my coupons arrived no one was yet selling the things. My coupons expired before I could find a vendor and _they won't issue you any more, even if your's have expired_... so I'm SOL. Their solution for that is "Ask someone else to give you one of theirs". GENIUS!!! Aren't they tracking assigned coupons and whether they've been redeemed or have expired? It would seem simple enough to re-issue expired, non-redeemed coupons.
All of the commercials are paid by your local stations on the channels they own. Haven't you noticed they're all unique?
Oh that's right, you just felt like making another anti-government post.
Our government sucks, but the DTV transition is probably one of the few things which they have mostly gotten right.
Over the air digital converters will NOT work with digital cable.
OTA digital broadcast in the USA uses Vestigial Side-Band modulation, where cable uses Quadrature Amplitude Modulation. Not compatible.
YIAABE - (Yes, I am a broadcast engineer)
When I was home for Christmas, my octogenarian Mom asked me about the converters. She has two TVs already on cable, but uses an old color OTA set in her kitchen. I helped her apply for a coupon. But when I looked at the info about the box, it seems that it only had composite video outputs, I didn't even see a coax connection, so I told her it probably wouldn't work with her set which only has a 300 ohm "rabbit ear" antenna connection. So does this mean that she'd also need an RF modulator as well?
Older analog televisions will no longer work without a converter box after February 17.
This is untrue. They will no longer be able to receive broadcasts over the airwaves. They will still be able to work with most cable services and such, game consoles, etc. I use my TV set with my Xbox Media Center and PS2 exclusively, and if i want television I'll order cable, which the vast majority or television users have.
You need to get a VCR with an ATSC tuner:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-DVDR3545V-37-Upscaling-Built/dp/B000N81C42/ref=pd_sim_e_5
http://www.amazon.com/JVC-DRMV100B-Upconverting-Recorder-Built/dp/B0015IL57I/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1231275255&sr=8-24
They're $200, but it's worth it because you can set up timed recordings on whatever channel you want, and they also include a DVD player.
Hands in my pocket
I suspect that many/most of the people that are getting these boxes don't need them. The only setups that will go black are TVs made before 1997 that use only OTA signals. I have seen MANY advertisements that say ALL people with OTA will go black. I guess they figure that it will confuse people to say that if they have a set that is less than 10 years old they will be fine.
i still have my old small sets in my rooms used for gaming. only reason i got a new tv that is a hdtv was being i got a large set for my living room. would i toss mt old still used sets for buy 3 new tvs hell no. the only good that will come of this is if the fcc passes that free nation wide broadband using part of the spectrum . they are making mobile digital sets now and theirs even battery powered converter boxes for rvs and campers. or your mobile set that's still anlong. but they are still quite large i think once the coupons dry up we will see more advanced and cheaper boxes.
People will just start reading more books again, won't they? ;-))
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
From this site: http://www.ncta.com/Statistic/Statistic/Statistics.aspx
US Television Households (September 2007) 112,275,000
Basic Cable Subscribers (December 2007) 64,800,000
That leaves 47475000 using broadcast.
They have 1340000000 dollars in funding.
1340000000 / 40 per unit = 33500000 units.
They are short by at least 13975000 units. Or, 559000000 dollars, assuming no overhead.
They assumed that a lot of people that would need them wouldn't use the coupons, because they would want fancier boxes that the coupons were valid for. They probably underestimated the number of "rich" people satisfied with the basic boxes, using the coupon to get a cheap ones for their secondary TV (kids room, cabins, boat, whatever), or simply being greedy...
I'm sure I read somewhere that they had issued a bunch of coupons that were almost certain to never be redeemed and that if they could just factor that into their calcualtions, that they woudl be free to over-issue coupons knowing that they are very unlikely to bust their budget.
It does not seem like too much of a stretch to me to leave their budget as it is, to over-issue coupons and to accept a small risk that more coupons than expected are redeemed.
Nullius in verba
Becasue you ahve removed an artificial property into the market. As soon as that goes away, the price should drop do to competition.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The plans started in 1996 and it was the House and the Senate that created the converter box subsidy program...not the "Bush admin controlled FCC..."
from http://www.dtvprimer.com/timeline.html
"1996 -- Congress passed Telecommunications Act of 1996 which established December 31, 2006, as the end of the transition to a new ATSC digital television standard. On that date authority to broadcast via the old NTSC analog standard would end."
"November 1, 2005 -- The Senate and the House of Representatives each pass their own version of a new digital TV transition bill. The House version would end the transition on December 31, 2008, and the Senate version would set that date as April 7, 2009. Each would have a subsidy for digital-to-analog set-top-boxes. "
also...
"February 8, 2006 -- Digital TV Transition Act of 2005 signed into law, establishing February 17, 2009 as the last day for NTSC/analog TV broadcasts. "
The government shouldn't spend money on this. Most of the civilized world has cable. For those that don't, either buy the converter or get news from the net.
Where do you want to be, What are you doing to get there.
That's what I get for waiting until the last minute *grumble*
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
[nt]
Soory, forgot one more thing. I suck Ballmer's twinkie at least once a month.
Once again posting as AC as I am a stupid fucktard,
Thelasko
How can they run out of money when they "sold" the spectrumfor untold billions, while supporting consumer electronics industry by FORCING people to "upgrade" to "HD"?! Yay for fuckwit bureaucrats insanely out of control! Woot!
Probably everyone smarter than myself knew this already, but I didn't figure out till I stumbled across a site (Not antennaweb, but darned if I can find how I stumbled across it now) that not only gave locations and power, but cross-referenced actual broadcast frequency versus the 'virtual' channel numbers - virtually all of which were actually in the UHF spectrum (or, in one case, will be after Feb 17th).
Which obviously explained much about why my attempts to get better reception were actually making things worse - knowing what was actually going on I went back to the old 1980's corner yagi, corrected a few things, and, with one exception (VHF Channel 8, broadcasting it's HD signal on Channel 9), I'm getting excellent reception across the board.
Of course, we pretty much only watch PBS, but hey, I get lots of it - {G}.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Actually, there are lots of rural viewers who get over-the-air TV from repeaters on mountaintops, who will continue to be able to use those analog repeaters. They won't be affected by this change, it is an exception. Which makes me wonder when that spectrum will be opened for use by rural internet users like me.
When I first moved in to my apartment which has free basic cable I hooked the Comcast cable to the back of the TV and got nothing. Not wanting to deal with them I tried the Digital tuner box I had purchased when we didn't have cable and viola it worked. Got up to channel 120 very clear until my wife called to have a second room setup and they helpfully switched us to analog(big difference very fuzzy). I know this isn't the same situation but maybe this helps.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz
While technically true, that statement shows a complete ignorance of the reality.
A short while ago, converter box prices bottomed out at $50, and that was before the Yuan/Dollar exchange rate turned to crap. Now just a few no-name boxes are just barely able to squeeze in at that $40 price point. It is absolutely amazing that any companies are able to make an HDTV converter for $40. Just decoding the MPEG-2 video at 19Mbit/sec takes more horsepower than a 2GHz Intel/AMD CPU can manage. And good luck finding a video card with hardware decoding (eg. XvMC) for under $40.
And that's just decoding. The cheapest PCI HDTV capture card for PCs goes for $50 right now... No coupons for them, so don't bring it up. And how about downscaling to NTSC resolution, and video output? What's the cheapest you can get a device that can do 1080i decoding and output to a TV? D-VCRs, HD-DVDs? Definitely not under $40.
DVD players are ancient, low-end tech by comparison, yet they rarely make it to market under the $40 mark. What makes you think an HDTV converter possibly would?
They're really scraping the bottom of the barrel to get down to $40... The coupon makes a decent quality ceiling as well. Trust me, you really, really don't want to see an HDTV converter box that costs less than $40.
The only real limitation on the converter box program is that it can't have high-resolution/digital outputs (they didn't want to subsidize HDTV purchases) and it can't be some multi-function device like a DVR (they didn't want to subsidize Tivos).
If you want either of those, shucks, you have to pay the extra $40 yourself. You don't seriously think that nobody is making HDTV receivers anymore because of the coupon program, do you?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I can buy a UK box for about £17 from Asda (=Walmart), which is about $25 at the moment. Minimum wage is currently £5.73 per hour.
We use DVB-T, but the technology is similar (MPEG-2 etc).
Incidentally, Asda also sell a DVD player for £9 (=$13).
To be fair, the coupon program created the market for cheap converter boxes. Before that, it was often difficult to find converter boxes, and the prices were much higher.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
A short while ago, converter box prices bottomed out at $50, and that was before the Yuan/Dollar exchange rate turned to crap. Now just a few no-name boxes are just barely able to squeeze in at that $40 price point. It is absolutely amazing that any companies are able to make an HDTV converter for $40. Just decoding the MPEG-2 video at 19Mbit/sec takes more horsepower than a 2GHz Intel/AMD CPU can manage. And good luck finding a video card with hardware decoding (eg. XvMC) for under $40.
Who mentioned anything about HDTV? The converter boxes I am talking about do not support HDTV. As a matter of fact, decoding and outputing an HDTV signal made your box ineligible for the coupon redemption program.
What I am talking about are dirt cheap digital TV converters for standard definition televisions. Your CPU example is poor. A general purpose CPU will always have more overhead than a dedicated ASIC. There are a TON of companies that make MPEG-2 decoders that are dirt cheap (infact, they are found in $20 DVD players).
These boxes have already started dropping in price:
Here is a zenith for $29.00
http://www.consumerdepot.com/products.asp?id=DTT901R&referer=google
You can now buy 22 inch LCD TVs with ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuners built in for $299. It's not hard to think that stand alone ATSC tuners will go for less than $40 now that the subsidy is gone.
-ted
No, it sure as hell isn't...
DVB-T is just standard definition. Meanwhile, ATSC converter boxes have to decode HDTV signals. A world of difference there.
Much wider channel badwidth, many times the amount of data to do signal processing and error correction on. Not to mention the massive 19Mbps 1920x1080i MPEG-2 video.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I did, because I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Really? So when you try to tune in NBC's digital channel, which is broadcasting only a 1080i HDTV signal, your magical converter box does WHAT?
Outputting highdef makes a box ineligible. You can't possibly NOT decode the full HDTV signal. That's what it's converting FROM, anyhow.
"Overhead" is nonsense. And I didn't just mention CPUs, I also included video cards with hardware MPEG-2 decoding.
No, it's not. First, you can't buy it, so it's a lot of nothing... Secondly, the price on that page doesn't include shipping and handling, which I have no doubt they jack up to high heaven to cover their low list prices... And finally, loss-leaders, and other products being sold at a loss for whatever reason, really don't change what it costs to make the thing. Depending on store sales isn't a viable economic strategy.
Well, since 22" LCDs go for well-under $200, retail, that would put the tuners at well over $100.
If you're completely ignorant of a topic, it's not hard to think magic pixie dust will fix everything...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
DVB-T is just standard definition. Meanwhile, ATSC converter boxes have to decode HDTV signals. A world of difference there.
Oh, OK. Presumably many channels are still broadcast in standard definition though. Are there boxes available that do SD ATSC but not HD? That would be good enough for many (most?) televisions that need a converter. Certainly here, most HD TVs (and most TVs purchased in the last few years) here will have an integrated digital tuner, most converter boxes are connected to secord/third/kids TVs that don't benefit from HD anyway.
(Similar: the cheap box here won't support encrypted channels, but the better ones will have the required smart card slot etc.)
Sure, the boxes decode an "HD" signal. Yes they scale the HD signal down to 480i. You are right about this.
You are wrong about future pricing of these boxes - history is on my side here.
Here is a press release for a Microtune MT2131 chip that integrates analog NTSC, DTV, and digital cable reception capability onto a single chip:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6311888.html
The chip's cost: $2.40 per chip (and this is from 2006 - they are probably cheaper now). No "magic pixie dust" needed.
Here is an HDTV decoder chip from 2004 that cost $18 back then:
http://www.st.com/stonline/press/news/year2004/p1494p.htm
This article details entire system on a chip designs that fell to $15 at the end of 2007.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_/ai_n25455222
Don't you think chips like this will enable set top converters for less than $40?
Technology history is full of examples of expensive stuff becoming really cheap, really fast. Why would DTV set top boxes be any different? You'd be a fool to believe otherwise.
Do you honestly believe that prices will go lower than $40 if the government is giving away that amount of money for each box? No businessman with a brain in his skull is going to charge less than $40 until the money dries up.
My post was meant to illustrate that this commoditization process can now occur naturally since the artificial prop holding up pricing has now been removed.
-ted
I would dare say 80% of ATSC channels are broadcasting their primary signal at 1080i, with no SD version. Many do have SD sub-channels, that show weather info, and other specialty programming, but you'll miss-out on just about all the main channels.
I am not aware of a single one. They may not even be legally able to call themselves digital TV converter boxes of any kind if they can't decode the full set of broadcast content.
It doesn't work that way. Unlike DVB-T, ATSC had no (standard definition) intermediate step. We've gone directly from analog, to HighDef digital. That's why it has taken so long for the analog switch-off...
As another bit of trivia, the US has been going through the process of broadcasting in highdef ATSC digital, before any regular DVB-T broadcasts began (eg. in Europe). The much higher hardware requirements just meant the price was prohibitive, and it took quite a while longer of a transition time before a substantial number of homes had capable equipment installed, and convert boxes dropped below $100USD.
There is no provision for OTA protected broadcasts in ATSC. That goes directly against the concept of TV spectrum being handed out in exchange for the public service provisions included in broadcast station contracts with the FCC. There's no specific prohibition on it, and they can technically use spare capacity for anything they want if that doesn't impact the main channel, but I certainly haven't even heard of distant future plans to do anything like that.
Of course, it could simply be that there's much, much more money to be made by selling advertising on an unencrypted (FTA) channel than there is in selling subscriptions to a small number of premium channels. Between the cable companies in every city, the phone companies installing fiber optic cables that also provide TV service as well as phone and internet, and the multiple satellite TV services competing with one another, I'd say it's an over-served market without broadcasters getting in on the act.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
As another bit of trivia, the US has been going through the process of broadcasting in highdef ATSC digital, before any regular DVB-T broadcasts began (eg. in Europe).
The difference is just 17 days!
(Digital terrestrial television launched in the UK on 15 November 1998, The American Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) HDTV system had its public launch on October 29, 1998, during the live coverage of astronaut John Glenn's return mission to space on board the Space Shuttle "Discovery". Though, the UK will still have analog broadcast signals in some areas until 2012, mostly because broadcast TV is very popular, and relatively few people use cable or satellite TV.)
There's been unofficial digital HDTV test broadcasts from the BBC for some time, but I don't know when that started. People don't seem to care that much, probably because PAL isn't quite as bad as NTSC.
The much higher hardware requirements just meant the price was prohibitive, and it took quite a while longer of a transition time before a substantial number of homes had capable equipment installed, and convert boxes dropped below $100USD.
Initially (i.e. 1998 to 2001) a UK company used the revenue from subscriptions to premium channels to provide "free" converter boxes. But, they went bust in 2001, about the time the boxes became cheap enough that people were willing to pay for them to access the better-quality free channels.
Of course, it could simply be that there's much, much more money to be made by selling advertising on an unencrypted (FTA) channel than there is in selling subscriptions to a small number of premium channels.
This would seem to be the case in the UK also. There are only a few premium channels (4.5 channels-worth of them, but broadcasting in lower quality is possible to allow for more than that), and I've yet to meet anyone who pays for them (apparently, there are 300000 subscribers, which is 100000 less than a year ago, out of 30,000,000 digital TV receivers)
Just a minor point. I compared the quality of my cable company (Comcast) digital images with OTA. It wasn't even comparable. I unhooked the cable and will use the $12 antenna.
Don't forget all those VCRs with built in non-digital tuners.
I'll be tossing a lot of electronics in the trash come February.
It wasn't a "My System is Better Than Your System" boast. I've had conversations with lots of confused people here on /. some even apparently Americans, who have been panning ATSC over the years for being somehow "behind" because other (DVB-T) countries shut off their analog signals quite a bit sooner. Just thought I'd preempt that.
*sigh* You just proved the my point...
PAL has a 20% higher resolution than NTSC, yes, but it pays for it with a 20% lower frame-rate... It's a flickering mess, frankly. Even if you have a 100Hz TV, you still get much worse motion. And films sped-up by 4% just drives me insane. How is any of that better?
Yes, HDTV is only 5X higher resolution than PAL, rather than the 6X higher versus NTSC, but again, the refresh rate is 20% slower, which looks particularly terrible on sports, if nothing else.
But I digress. Use whatever makes you happy. I certainly love having HD.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant