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State Secrets Defense Rejected In Wiretapping Case
knifeyspooney writes in with an Ars Technica report that a federal judge has issued a strong rebuke to government lawyers attempting to invoke the "state secrets" defense to quash a lawsuit over warrantless wiretapping. This is not the high-profile case the EFF is bringing against the NSA; instead the case is being pursued by an Islamic charity that knows it had been wiretapped. "At times, a note of irritation crept into [Judge] Walker's even, judicial language. At one point, he described the government's argument as 'without merit,' and characterized another as 'circular.' He also seemed impatient with the Justice Department's refusal to provide any classified documents addressing Al Haramain's specific claims for review in chambers. 'It appears... that defendants believe they can prevent the court from taking any action under 1806(f) by simply declining to act,' wrote Walker."
C-C-C-Combo BREAKER!
fucking finally
It appears... that defendants believe they can prevent the court from taking any action under 1806(f) by simply declining to act,' wrote Walker
Unless he's willing to put the attorneys in jail for failure to comply (and end up gitmo'd), there's not a lot that he can do.
I still have my fingers crossed, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Haramein
If so I can see why the government would want to wiretap them.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
Its good to see checks and balances, checking and balancing.
Just the fact that things are being reviewed does the constitution good.
Think Deeply.
The Justice Department has repeatedly sought to block the suit by invoking national security concerns.
I really don't feel secure from so much government secrecy, seems like it's their argument to everything for the past few years.
It's like saying Windows is secure because it's running secret proprietary code under the hood.
Do you D?
I think it has more to do with standing. These people know that they had been wiretapped (apparently the feds accidentally gave them a copy of the call logs, lol). The EFF doesn't know who has been wiretapped, I'm not sure they have direct proof that anybody has been, so their case is much more difficult.
The enemies of Democracy are
I bet the judge is going to be wiretapped now.
... so first we have a president whose second name is Hussein, and now Muslims are bringing freedom to America?
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Remember all you folks who argued for greater presidential powers: Every power you gave Bush is a power Obama now has. And ditto for you Obama fans who will be arguing the same in the next few years for your guy. Eventually there will be someone you don't like in office. There's a very good reason for limiting the power of government: malchiks and nitwits frequently find their way into office.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
An abandoned warehouse in San Francisco, kitted up as for a rave, electronica playing at 15db louder than "my ears are bleeding and I'm developing an aneurism" volumes and the windows all painted over black so that the strobe and spotlights and lasers can be seen better. Computers, mainly made of whatever stuff has been exchanged for crack or scavenged from dumpsters behind dot-bombs, are scattered around on whatever furniture is available, which also consists of whatever stuff has been exchanged for crack or scavenged from dumpsters behind dot-bombs. There's no break area, but you may be able to bum a beer (or more likely something harder) off of one of the developers hanging around, and they will probably be too jacked up on X, coke, acid, heroin, ether or all of the above to notice that you've taken anything.
Development strategies are generally determined by whatever light show happens to be going on at the moment, when one of the developers will leap up and scream "I WANT IT TO LOOK JUST LIKE THAT" and then straight-arm his laptop against the wall in an hallucinogenic frenzy before vomiting copiously, passing out and falling face-down in the middle of the dance floor. There's no whiteboard, so developers diagram things out in the puddles of spilt beer, urine and vomit on the floor.
At the end of the day - whenever that is since an equal number of programmers will be passed out at any given time - or really whenever someone happens to think of it (which is rarely), someone might type "make" on some machine somewhere, with mixed results. Generally nothing happens, so he/she shrugs his/her shoulders and wanders off to look for someone who might have more pink/black-striped pills. Once in a great while, generally in the unpleasant time between the come-down from the last thing they took and before whatever it was they took just now comes on fully, someone will tar up a bunch of random files and post it on a website someplace it as the next GNOME release, usually with a reference to some kind of monkey.
GNOME developers rarely live past 25 and prefer "alternative" art - generally stuff made of feces that's "too edgy" for most people to "understand" or "like." Core GNOME developers are heavy Ketamine users. The bodies of GNOME developers can often be found in dumpsters or floating face-down in any sufficiently large body of water.
The cloud of suspicion, and the chilling effects that follow have affected everyone in the United States. We all have standing.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
If the liberals of this country made it possible for Islam to spread and then take over the USA, then watch all of their progress evaporate as women are disenfranchised, then kicked out of their jobs, abortion is banned, homosexuals are stoned, writers are jailed, directors shot, dancers raped, just like, well, every other country where Islam has taken over.
This is my sig.
the state of confusion/internal 'terrorism' (criminals in charge of the lockup) interferes with/prevents a valid defense for US.
Probably when they send their terrorist training film in to be made into a DVD.
All three of your points depend upon the terrorists being so stupid that they're discussing their plans on a phone system, in the clear, which is tapped.
The government isn't at any risk from losing "intel" on those cases.
Intelligent terrorists (the kind that could actually carry out an attack) would be using encryption and anonymous email accounts.
Is it just me, or does
"women are disenfranchised, then kicked out of their jobs, abortion is banned, homosexuals are stoned, writers are jailed, directors shot, dancers raped"
sound like a conservative wishlist? I swear that Jerry Falwell was on my TV asking for these same things. Hmm..
I don't trust either parties, they just feel like two different ways of getting to the same common goal. It's just a coin toss that says tails I win and heads you lose.
They both give us a hundreds different brands of cereals to eat but only 2 political choices, how's that freedom?
Do you D?
Fail.
"But this one goes to 11!"
Check out the cartoon at http://www.xkcd.com/525/
...this judge suddenly starts finding all his mail opened and sloppily glued back shut, hearing strange clicks and tones in all his phone calls, and black suburbans with deep tinted windows filled with square-jawed men in sunglasses and expressionless faces following him and his family members everywhere they drive.
.. or is he an elected judge?
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
They both give us a hundreds different brands of cereals to eat but only 2 political choices, how's that freedom?
The funny thing about that is that 50% of those brands of cereals tastes like sticks and twigs, but 100% of the political parties taste like sticks and twigs.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
FYI, Al-Haramain and both the EFF wiretapping cases (the class action against AT&T, and the new suit against the government) are currently before the same court and judge, Judge Vaughn Walker. All the cases are continuing.
No one should have the powers that Bush/Cheney seized or created. Not them, not Obama, (probably ;) not even me.
But if you can't tell the difference between how Republicans do wrong and how Democrats do wrong, you're not comparing Nixon/Reagan/Bush/Bush to Kennedy/Johnson/Carter/Clinton. You're saying something lazy and ignorant that equates extreme bad with merely not good.
--
make install -not war
Boy, you sureley are a retard.
Did you bother to read the judge's logic as to how indefensible the claims of state secrets were? Or did you just dismiss the judge out of hand because you're a simple-minded brain-washed ex-military troll?
That need-to-know crap is just bullshit. Unless the agency in question can demonstrate the need for secrecy, then the documents in question should be made public. There needs to be an authority which can determine if there really are state secrets that shouldn't be exposed... and guess what? The judiciary IS that authority.
If anyone's an asshole, it's you -- for supporting an executive that need answer to no one.
*DAMN* I forgot not to feed the trolls...
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Yea, those Muslims keep getting preferential treatment these days. Damn them and their powerful lobby groups.
I hate printers.
They both give us a hundreds different brands of cereals to eat but only 2 political choices, how's that freedom?
The funny thing about that is that 50% of those brands of cereals tastes like sticks and twigs, but 100% of the political parties taste like sticks and twigs.
All US brand cereals that are sold in Sweden taste like sugercoated suger. Is that the other 50%?
I think I would actually prefer sticks and twigs. Swedish children is getting more and more obese. Sugarcoated cereals, Cola and American style fast food is the main cause.
Not to mention that having a case pending in court should grant you a need-to-know for any evidence that happens to be classified.
What about the H-bomb case where they had 2 hearings, one public and one in camera?
They gave the defendant's attorneys in that one a security clearance.
I dunno...having a pending court case would sound like need to know for me
The really truly terrifying thing is that you seem to believe this. Tell that to the Muslims who just got kicked off a plane because one of them said, Oh, look, we are next to the jets. Their preferential treatment included missing their flight and several hours in detention.
Let's first remember that Bush installed John Yoo in this office, author of the infamous "the President can torture anyone he wants" memo.
In contrast, Johnsen, a law professor at Indiana, has been an extremely harsh and very outspoken critic of the expansion of executive power under Bush. Writing for Slate, she said:
And here is what she had to say about Bush's violation of FISA:
Given this I am fairly optimistic that we'll see at least some reversal of the executive power grab that took place under Bush.
All US brand cereals that are sold in Sweden taste like sugercoated suger. Is that the other 50%?
Probably. It seems that the cereal for kids are all sugar-coated sugar. When I was a kid, though, I loved Grape-Nuts (which have neither grapes nor nuts) when I could get my parents to buy them (being "healthy", they were more expensive than frosted flakes, and came in a much smaller box). Now that I spend my own money, I buy the generic brand version.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Those are details though, you're missing his point about strategy. Regardless of the technology used, knowing which sections of your communications have been compromised lets you immediately fix those leaks and furthermore make some inferences about what methods your opponent is using. If a 'charity' knows that their conversations with churches, public figures and a foreign extremist religious group have been tapped but certain other conversations with a chemical supplier and an arms dealer have not they have a lot of information about what the Feds know about them and which of their contacts are compromised.
I vaguely recall (wikipedia does not quickly confirm or deny) that when the Allies broke the enigma code in WWII they didn't act on all the advance warning they had of German attacks because it would be too obvious that the German commmunications had been intercepted, and the Germans would change their code. Or maybe I'm confusing Cryptonomicon with history, I hate it when that happens.
.evom ton seod gis eht
No, no, you got it all wrong. 50% of the political parties taste like sticks and twigs. The other 50% taste like twigs and sticks.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what Obama and Biden do. Their successors could easily reverse it. We could have had the toughest anti-executive legislation in the world in 2000, and the Bush-friendly congress would surely have hacked it to pieces at the first opportunity. A constitutional amendment would have been ignored, just like the other inconvenient parts of the Constitution. Can you think of a set of checks on executive powers that would have prevented Bush and Cheney from doing what they did?
I don't mean to sound cynical, but we need to remember *how* Bush and Cheney managed to grant themselves such sweeping powers. No legislation or constitutional amendment could have stopped them. Only a speedy judicial process with real teeth could have nipped it in the bud. And then we have to pray that the judiciary hasn't been completely stacked with party loyalists.
The only compromise that is reasonable is a limited government.
And who has the power to impose such limits? Only the government. Damn.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Republican politicians love this rhetorical trick because they know you will compensate for lack of nuance with an abundance of outrage, thus they just have to employ the term and the details about its referent become unimportant to the talking point.
Before you rage on me for calling you stupid (I didn't, stop being so defensive) think about how politicians direct hate towards videogames or internet piracy and how much it pains you that the stupid sheeple don't see through the snow job.
So please, check the rage (it never helps your argument) and be critical of your own rhetoric (lest others do it for you).
that when the Allies broke the enigma code in WWII they didn't act on all the advance warning they had of German attacks because it would be too obvious that the German commmunications had been intercepted
You are indeed correct. And even when they acted on the advance warning they had to take precautions. Example: During the campaign in Africa we used our code breaking abilities to locate German supply convoys. Before attacking them the Allies would arrange for a scout plane to "discover" the convoy in question. The Germans took the bait and assumed they were located via aerial reconnaissance.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
No, the people can limit the government. But it takes an informed people willing to get off their butts and stop it. Yeah it's difficult, maybe even impossible, but it's still worth attempting.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
He likely considers keeping people from praying to the wrong invisible sky-wizard
Actually, no. My point is more like, anyone with half a brain should fall in line with a sky wizard to worship and get on with the program. Sky wizard is going to win. Of course, I'd like it to be my christian sky-wizard, because I like my culture and want it to dominate, but ultimately some sky wizard is going to win and secular liberalism is going to lose.
Historically, organized religion has a pretty strong tradition of triumphing over other cultural systems. Male domination may not make the women happy, but it is pretty damn good evolutionary trait. Darwin doesn't care if women like their babies or not, only if they have them.
And logically, too, what's really to lose in following a sky-wizard. If there is no God, as you allude, there's nothing wrong with it, and its just evolution, so anything you can do for your culture to triumph is really on the table. If there is a God, then God sanctions your behavior with his Sky-wizardful mercilessness, and there's still nothing wrong with it.
What you don't get is this. Freedom comes from an ideology, yes, but it is also based on wealth. We are entering an age where people are going to be poorer, long term, because well, there's a cap on natural resources, soon to be caps on energy consumption, and, there's just going to be less and less to go around. For a time, you can make this argument that we should all equally accept less, learn to share, and what not, so that we can all put up with each other, but at some point, Sky-wizard is going to come along, and say that's a bunch of crap, let's just wipe out everyone who doesn't believe in our sky wizard, however many billions that is, and have the whole planet to ourselves, in much richer fashion.
Oh, and please, go on and bleed your heart about how terrible christianity is because its adherents do not follow the teachings of christ. There's plenty of "christians" that are more pagan now anyway - the old Catholic habit of making pagan gods saints to introduce people to christ has now the effect of people of christ being introduced to pagan gods. And I'll tell you, the pagan sky wizards have no "turn the other cheek" stuff to slow them down.
It will be just like Roman times, where Empires are made and formed with all the religious zeqal but without the judeao-christian conscience.
This is my sig.
Amusing, to see someone who defends government agencies that ignore individual rights and Constitutional protections post anonymously.
( They can follow the electrons in Anonymous Coward home, you know.)
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
Frankly, I'm a little surprised the EFF hasn't dropped its case and prodded Al-Haramain to let it take over their case.
The EFF is very well equipped for this type of suit. Also, standing to bring forth the suit is a huge advantage. I certainly believe the probability that the wiretapping program intercepts communication between US citizens should be all the standing thats needed. Judges may not agree however.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Hey Rob, where's the "Irony" mod?
Cheers,
I don't trust either parties, they just feel like two different ways of getting to the same common goal. It's just a coin toss that says tails I win and heads you lose.
They both give us a hundreds different brands of cereals to eat but only 2 political choices, how's that freedom?
Trust me, more political choices doesn't make any difference. In Sweden we have 7 (?) major political parties, that align up in two political blocks (left and right) that share the power, so no matter who you vote for, you still end up voting for one of two options.
The problem is at the core representative democracy, and not how many representatives you have to choose from.
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Let's all rush those fuckers and see who wins.
I blame sugar coated sugar cereal in part for the chronic constipation of America. People need to learn to eat their shredded wheat damnit.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be looking. -- H.L. Mencken, "A Mencken Chrestomathy"
Wow, the motd is just too appropriate on this one...
I'd trust Bush with them more, any day of the week. That's the whole point.
It's wise not to trust anybody with those powers, but to trust Bush more than Obama proves you to be a fucking moron. Hot tip, Sparky, there is no speculation whatsoever. We know Bush abused those powers for his own gain and to the detriment of the nation. With Obama it's only speculation. Therefore, you are proven by your own words to be a fucking moron. There is no possible way for you to contradict that.
I mean you'd have to be dumb as fuck to be a Republican ever since Nixon since they've gone completely downhill from there in every way, but damn you are way fucking stupider than even that.
Pull your head out of your ass and look around just for a second. I mean you're not even sounding remotely sane. "Durrr I'd pick the proven traitor over somebody I speculate might be one".
Seriously, you're such an extremist partisan hack and douche that you fail to grasp the pure insanity of that statement. You, and the rest of the fucking douchebags who treat political parties like football teams are the primary problem with this country.
Go die in a fire you stupid scumbag piece of shit.
People need to learn to eat their shredded wheat damnit.
For that there's Frosted Mini-Wheats (Which I do admit to eating when I want something sweet. But... what the hell is a mini-wheat?)
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Standard shredded wheat used to come in huge pieces and you were supposed to break them up. Thus the mini-wheat is a bite size version of this.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.