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Most Hackable Coupon-Eligible DTV Converter?
An anonymous reader writes "So I've finally gotten my DTV coupons, now I have to choose a converter before the analog signals go dark. I'd like to get one that is hackable, but haven't had much luck finding information about the internals of the units available. My question is: What chipsets do the different coupon eligible converters use, and which one is the most hackable? It'd be great to be able to send my own MPEG stream and have it displayed, or to grab the raw stream out of the device."
They are just going to extend the deadline again; might as well wait a few more years. Hopefully by then the devices will be even more hackable.
There's really nothing on.
It's kind of impossible to get a useful answer to your question on Slashdot... You see, if someone gives you a valid link to something that is actually useful, it gets modded up. It will immediately sell out, and you're back to square one. :-)
WHY would you want to waste your time even doing that? What's the point? There are DTV tuners on USB sticks that are likely easier to hack than some single-purpose hardware like these converter boxes!
So I've finally gotten my DTV coupons
If you're so hard pressed for cash that you had to get a coupon for a converter unit then MPEG streaming should be the least of your concerns.
I thought that's what the coupons were for, poor disadvantaged people who couldn't otherwise afford them. Not slashdot hackers looking for some free stuff to mess with.
Not quite what you asked for, and I don't know if you can use your coupon (I'm guessing not)... but the HDHomeRun allows you two capture MPEG streams. It integrates well with MythTV. It has an open source library. Pretty sweet little device in my opinion.
perhaps you should throw out your coupon or give it to someone who can't afford to purchase one and missed getting a coupon. If you're looking to hack something you should use your own money to buy one and not mine.
Thank you.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Why is this tagged republicans? Did I miss something?
Why bother hacking one when you can get an HDHomeRun that has dual-tuners and it is networked across ethernet! Now it won't directly hook up to any TVs or what not, just computers. MythTV and other favorite software suites works with it just fine. It does have a $180 USD price tag though last I checked of which makes it out of your reach if you're having to get a coupon for a DTV converter box...
This space is not for rent.
nformation on this will most likely be hard if not impossible to find. You are looking for a group of people tech savvy enough to have media streaming from their pc, yet ones that have televisions old enough that they do not have a digital receiver. (Unless, of course, your TV does have a digital receiver, and you are just grabbing coupons, helping the government run out, and therefore delay the switchover... but I digress) While this is the internet, and there is probably a google group dedicated to this, I can't imagine there will ever be a significant percentage of the population that would do this; Either go all the way with a (relatively) new TV, or give up.
Unless of course you are trying to put linux on one of these.. then by all means, go right ahead.
Tivax makes a converter box which is only about $15 with a rebate card and has a serial port on the back. I got two of them with my coupons. You can control the unit through the serial port (turn on, change channel, zoom, etc). You don't get access to the digital signal, what you get is a good quality analog picture at standard resolution, which your analog PVR can record. For me this was what I wanted; the HD stream itself is a deluge of data; you really don't want to capture it at full-res if you'll be watching on an SDTV. (In fact my old PVR box isn't fast enough to replay full HD video streams, it requires considerable CPU). I am using wish scripts to send the serial commands. Perhaps somebody has written code for MythTV to use it by now.
There was a limit of two (2) per household.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
For the chipsets used, you can check the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units .
But as to hackability, I seriously doubt that ANY of these unit are sophisticated enough to run a real OS with some hacking potential. If you're a hardware wizard, you might be able to do something, but I don't see the value in spending lots of time trying to hardware hack a box which costs $10-$20 out-of-pocket.
The FCC took in 19.6 billion for the 700 mhz spectrum auction selling an asset of the US government...which last I checked is every US citizens.
The little Apex 502 is one of the few coupon eligible converters with S-video out.
If you have a TV or monitor with S-Video inputs, you'll get a better picture than using RS170 composite video (and much better than CH3/4 RF)
1. In the US the spectrum is already sold
2. I highly doubt that we'll be seeing DRM on broadcast television any time soon.
As far as using the output, there are ATSC converter boxes that can interface with the TiVo Series 2. Likewise, they could interface with anything that can accept composite or S-video and output IR signals.
Blonder Tongue makes ATSC demodulators that can work via Web or RS-232, but I doubt they're coupon-eligible, and like any professional AV equipment, the stuff is heavy, rack-mountable, heats up like a kiln, and will cost a li'l bit.
Your best bet is probably an ATSC capture device that works with MythTV. I won't begin to name any, since there are plenty out there. :-)
Check out the Dish Network box. I admit, I haven't had a chance to actually try to use one of these, but the video I've seen of them in use looks really similar to their set top box firmware. Could just be some sort of theme though...
I'm the happy owner of an HDHomeRun. It's a fantastic device, and I highly recommend it, but it's not a coupon-eligible converter. Normally, I would say to chuck the coupon aside and get it anyway, but the reason why the HDHomeRun isn't coupon-eligible is its lack of an RF output. You have to get the stream off the network, you can't connect it straight to the tv.
Now, I have a mythtv box connected to my TV, so that's not an issue for me. If you have a computer serving as a media center I most definitely recommend it, but if you just want the streaming as a bonus, and still want RF output, then it's not for you.
Again, this is not a criticism of the device. I absolutely love mine, and I highly recommend it to anyone looking for a way to stream unencrypted HD to their computers. Silicon Dust also has excellent forum support to help you set it up if you need it. However, if you want a converter box to hook directly up to your TV, this is not the device for you.
The Samsung SIR-T165 has a Firewire output that you can use to stream from your TV broadcast to your computer. However, later models have a lot more to offer in terms of stability and menu speed. A lot of these early models are slow and prone to locking up. They also don't receive channels nearly as well as the later models. But, if hacking is what you really want, go for the SIR-T165.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Just make sure you get a converter box with Component Video out (also called YPbPr). Then you can use the Hauppauge HD PVR http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html to capture the hi-def video to a hard drive.
This is a solution that works for any HD settop box no matter what copy protection it provides, so long as it outputs component video.
Well, there's this, but I think you'll need a few more coupons! If it's raw stream data you're after, you probably want one of the USB dongle tuners. I think there's a KWorld one out there for around $50. IIRC, their satellite DVB tuner cards were popular with the hacking community.
Dish Network makes one of the better reviewed analog to digital converters that is eligible for the coupon sales.
No offense, I think hacking a DTV converter is a neat idea, but I think you've unwittingly highlighted a major problem with the DTV coupon program. I think the program was generally intended to ensure that people in fixed/low income situations would be able to receive television signals after the transition. Instead, the majority of coupons have been redeemed by early adopters/geeks who generally do not need a dtv converter in the first place or would have been able to afford one without a coupon. In my experience, most of the people I know that need a converter did not even know about the program -- the only ones who knew about it were fellow techs who haven't had an analog TV in years.
Now we have people (most notably the Obama administration) stating that the DTV deadline because the coupon program is out of funds and those very people that program was designed for *still* do not have a coupon or a converter.
So my question is: if this is just some "for the fun of it" lark that you're going on with these DTV converters, don't you feel like it was at least slightly unethical (or at least a violation of the spirit of the program) to get a hand-out from the government?
The "republicans" and "democrats" tags appear at random on slashdot. Most complaints are about the "republicans" tag however.
Some people have been mentioning DTV tuners with Firewire other outputs. Under the law that enabled the coupons, only RF, composite, and possibly S-Video output is allowed on subsidized converters. See #54 here.
i don't like the idea of you trying to tinker with our tax payer funded devices so you can go and accidently break it and waste our tax money. all so you can brag to your buddies that you -can-
Ok, seriously slashdot, why does stuff like this keep getting tagged 'republicans' or 'democrats'? It's starting to get really annoying.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Why assume that just because someone is interested in hacking a DTV box they are well-off? Last I checked you can get a beige box for pretty cheap these days and a GNU/Linux iso for nothing...
Whether or not the coupon program is for the needy or not is another issue but in any case, why assume that only grannies and dull-wits should be the ones using the coupons?
Everyone is getting it for the fun of it. No one needs to watch TV.
Sigh. Not your fault, but yours is the first post I've seen that actually tries to answer the question. To find your post I had to skim past 100 posts that say things like:
I swear, Slashdot conversations get more and more solipsistic every day.
If he has an Analog TV, then he is entitled to a coupon.... actually this statement is not true. If he has an Analog TV and he has not purchased a replacement TV with a digital tuner (and for a 27" SDTV at Walmart, expect to pay around $200) because of his CHOICE... then he is not entitled to a coupon. People who cannot afford the switch over to digital are who are entitled to these coupons.
I hear a lot of people saying this, but I don't know where they're getting it from. The GP is correct: if he has a TV with only an analog tuner that he is using to get OTA signals, he is entitled to a converter box, regardless of whether he also has another (or eight other) TVs with digital tuners, and subscribes to cable, satellite, etc.
If you don't believe this, go to the DTV2009.gov website and read what it says. If you tell the script you have a TV with a digital tuner, and you watch OTA television, this is what it says:
You do not need a TV converter box for this TV set. Your TV has a digital tuner already built in and will likely continue to receive TV programming as usual after the transition on February 17th, 2009. If you have another TV set in your household that does not have a built-in digital tuner, you will need a TV converter box for this TV to continue to receive your programs after February 17th, 2009.
The correlation everyone is making between poor people and those needing converter boxes isn't necessarily true. My parents live in a rural area, and have two analog-tuner televisions they use to watch OTA signals. Cable is unavailable, and they do not want satellite TV. They aren't exactly "poor", but they are entitled to two boxes (which they applied for and got months ago).
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
BG isn't OTA unless I missed something.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I got a Magnavox from Sears. I have it plugged into a TV/VCR/DVD combo set. My wife watches American Idol on FOX WFLD Chicago. Last night she was going to be home about a half hour after the start of the show so I popped in a tape and hit record. After the show she wanted to watch the beginning so she rewound the tape and pressed play. The picture was B&W with lots of static the audio was fine until the TV screen turned black and text came-up that said to clean the heads, then the tape stopped playing. This was a brand new VHS tape. Just a few days before I recorded a program from WTTW 11 PBS (I tried both 11.1 and 11.2) and the inauguration partly from from NBC and CBS earlier that morning. All of that worked properly. My wife told me about it and I thought something was wrong with the tape, I rewound it, and successfully recorded a portion of Leno.
Today I am going to try FOX again. If this is the broadcast flag, I am displeased. I thought an agreement had been reached to not use it. Who are people that I should contact about this? Also are there any boxes that ignore the broadcast flag? My brother had no problem recording American Idol from Comcast cable with his Comcast DVR the same night.
I believe that this is macrovision. I made a comment a while back that I did not think what someone saw was macrovision, but now I am not sure:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=-1&mode=nocomment&commentsort=3&op=Change&sid=1081977&cid=26344959&pid=26344959
What I saw was not the color oscillation he/she saw, nor was it like what I have seen with macrovision before, but the audio was perfect so that is very strange if it was something like a cable. My wife said it looked fine when she was watching the second half live. I am going to experiment more tonight.
what are you, some kind of terrorist?
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
Just make sure you get a converter box with Component Video out (also called YPbPr).
The submitter was looking for a Coupon Eligible Converter Box.
CECBs are prohibited from having a Component Video output - only RF, Composite Video or S-Video outputs are permitted.
Putting moderation advice in your
I think the best use the geek can make of these boxes is to give then away to those who need them - the poor, the elderly, the disabled -
and perhaps donating a little of his time to help install them.
I use a Neuros OSD and the cheapest DTV converter box I could find. If you can, find a converter that the Neuros OSD universal remote understands.
-ghostis
Computer Science is all about trying to find the right wrench to bang in the right screw. -T.Cumbo?
Because the Cable company also owns the Cable here. AT&T and Verizon own 100% of the market share of the 700mhz band and may intend to use it for new iPhone and blackberries. Recently however, Obama has called for Congress to delay the DTV transition because it "Presents a conflict of Interest to the Wimax Carrier [Insert Company name]" -- MSNBC
DRM?
iTunes plans to remove DRM controls.
Microsoft now has a Unlimited subscription plan.
RIAA, according to a CNET post named "RIAAs year end turnaround" and it's respective tags, with stop prosecuting small-scale filesharers.
Always ahead of things? I don't think so. I hear Japan and Europe has shady deals phone companies.
Digital Artefacting?
That's because TV isn't a packet switching network. You know how many times I've stepped on a Fiberoptic cable and it's corrupted the streaming feed to the recorder. And then they transmit it wirelessly. SMART.
You have nothing to fear except the free market controlled by commodities, stocks, and bonds economy that has gotten us to this point in civilization.
OK I'll probably be getting a Tivax box for the DVR (it has an HD TV Wonder and an Analog card.)
Have anyone seen an ATSC tuner box for an "HD Capable" TV though? I've got one of those LCDs with 1080i support and an NTSC tuner. I keep looking for something with DVI or VGA output, but no joy.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
If you're that concerned about dicking around with your DTV receiver, then why bother at all ? Grab your shows via BitTorrent and do whatever the hell you want with the files. You can build yourself a MythTV box or some random Korean pirate-friendly media center box.
The longer you play the networks' game, the more restrictive their offerings will become. DTV will be harder to hack, and the next iteration will be even tighter, because these cartels are obsessed with one thing: controlling their market, leading to heightened profits. Having a receiver that lets you do what you, as a hacker, want to do, is directly against their goals.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
All you have to do is build RGBHV separator, put a resistor on the green channel, and bam! The picture is yellow! You can imagine that everyone is Asian!
Yeah, the government program-approved DTV boxes are super bare-bones and not really something worth hacking on. The most featureful one available at this time is made by Scientific Atlantic. I saw a very nice feature comparison of all the available coupon-redeemable boxes on AVSForum not too long ago. Might wanna have a look over there. Secondly, don't count on your coupons actually working. That program's outta money and the last couple of folks I've seen try to redeem their coupons at stores were SOL.
The set top boxes contain an 8VSB tuner/decoder with an analog out. It demodulates the desired sub-channel out of the 19.39mbs stream and converts it to analog and spits it out the back-end. There is nothing to gain by 'hacking' this ASIC. You cannot inject another mpeg stream into anything in the box. it will work only for over-the-air- broadcast signal. It will not even work on your cable HD. That uses a different modulation scheme.
With the ever changing landscape. What would be a good worldwide capture card that would work for all standards both terrestrial and satellite that uses the PCIe x1 slot?
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
A rep from Channel Master has indicated that they would be releasing firmware enhancements for the CM7000 STB after the coupon program is over. They wouldn't elaborate on what those enhancements would be, but most likely it would be the activation of QAM demodulation mode for cable HD reception. NTSC demodulation is also a possibility, since LPTV stations will continue to use this mode.
Most of the STB chipsets in use support these modes.
Also Closed Caption doesn't seem to work right on DTV (both direct to the tv or w/ the box). It always runs 15 seconds behind the actual dialog or is to garbled to read.
There are two modes in closed captioning: scroll mode and double buffer mode. Most shows that use scroll mode are live shows, and live shows' captions run several seconds behind whether you're in digital or analog. Shows with captions prepared in advance tend to use double buffer mode, where the captions just pop onto the screen after each sentence. I get PBS Kids where I live, and every show I've seen on PBS Kids uses double buffer mode.
The greatest number of analog channels I've ever had that have been watchable has been 5-6. Using a digital converter, that number has jumped to about 20 or 30
That's an awfully wide range. Is it 20 or 30?
It depends in part on the definition of "watchable". For example, plenty of liberals find FOX News unwatchable, as with conservatives and MSNBC. Likewise, people of atheist faith tend to find Christian ministry channels unwatchable.
More likely, grandparent may not have been posting from home.
It's an American conversation about an American problem. Begone, you limey, or frog, or whatever you are.
Thanks!
Kid-proof tablet..
Just get an HDMI or S-Video cable and connect your PC up to your television.
SDTVs can take composite or S-video input. But I didn't see a single desktop PC at Office Depot that had S-video output. What do you recommend to connect a PC with VGA or VGA+DVI out to a TV with composite or composite+S-video in?
The Feds have a WHOLE system set up that does means testing.
First, thank your neighbor, who paid for your coupon. Good looting.
In case any of you are interested, I took photos of my teardown of the Zenith DTT900, one of the first available DTV converters, available here: http://nuxx.net/gallery/v/acquired_stuff/zenith_dtt900/.
Does everything have to be hacked?
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
(1) In these booming economic times, I'm sure we'll see plenty of new cell phone companies going into business as a result of the increased spectrum availability (NOT).
(2) ABC already turned on the broadcast bit "accidently" for a number of shows in the SF Bay area, freventing them from being recorded by DVRs, last August.
-- Terry
when the government tries to force the hand of the free market. They shouldn't be forcing digital broadcast on anyone (especially stations), but they are. So to say that they should be making converter boxes available to everyone is absurd. It is really amazing that anyone expected this program to go even remotely well and then to retort, "The government should have done it this way or that". What everyone needs is not a converter box, but rather for the government to butt the hell out and stick to building our roads and keeping us safe from enemies. We'll do the rest, thanks. /rant
In the language of the eligibility requirements for the DTV coupons, it has language that strictly limits the feature set of the DTV tuner boxes. I believe there aren't any hidden features put in by manufacturers for fear of running afoul of the rules and being disqualified from being eligible for the coupons. Of course, risking disqualification from the program means significant revenue impact.
If you can afford to buy/pay the electricity to operate many TV sets, you can afford to buy a box without a coupon.
I think I'm a little lost. From what I've read trying to understand this topic, it seems that digital TV is only available via Satellite or cable in the US. Is that true? No terrestrial broadcasting?
I hear that the digital broadcasts give better signal.
I have never had the chance to play with one and I get analog signal with 18-20 channels. 3-4 of them are some times a tad snowy! does that mean thous 3-4 channels will be not reach able?!
now if this technology is better the fact that I can even get a some what watchable channel means I get signal, so does that mean i will get a clear channel cause i can get signal or does that mean it will just be a dead cannel to me.. no one is clear on that !!!
also intrested to know if my analog amp is amping the right frequencies that digital uses or should i have anouther amp for this sort of thing?
I am thinking of building a myth box to grab the news and crap.. but really is it better for someone like me who can already get alot of channels fairly clear?
Could a kind-hearted Slashdotter please help clear my confusion about whether I need a converter box? I suspect I'm not the only one with this question.
We bought a LCD TV half a year ago. By all rights it looks like it should be able to handle digital TV, with HDMI inputs, component inputs and all. Its VGA input even lets it function as a computer monitor for my laptop. I'm sure that the digital *capability* is there.
But we live in an apartment building with all the units just sharing the usual antenna from which we receive 3 or 4 semi-fuzzy TV stations. It comes in to our home through coax and we are able to hook this up to the RF input on the LCD TV to watch semi-fuzzy shows, just as we did with our old conventional TV before we got the LCD one.
Once, we saw a news station broadcast a signal saying "If you see the word PASS on your screen, you are receiving the digital signal and you're ready for the transition." We saw the word FAIL appear. I knew that already, anyway, since the picture was semi-fuzzy like a typical analog signal.
So it looks like a digital signal is already being broadcast. What does it take to get the digital signal? Do I have to hook up the coax to one of the other inputs on the TV? If so, is it just a coax-to-HDMI adapter? (Not sure how that would work.) Or would I have to change the antenna itself to be capable of receiving a digital signal? (In that case, wish me luck --the building management will get around to it after my grandchildren retire.) Or will it actually be fixed with a converter box that takes RF input from coax and output it to some digital form with some compatible connector?
Thanks for clarifying this. Sorry that this is slightly OT, but I wanted to harness the collective wisdom of the Slashdot community.
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
Magnavox tb100mw9. Quick run down, now has voided warranty, power supply contains painted traces, no good. analog tv side is surprisingly well labeled, agc, sub-chan, aud-in, aud-out, agnd, vmute, etc etc. rf is standard sealed unit, well labeled, all pins. digital board is disappointing, unknown chips, strange "firmware load cable", an assumption and really small traces, wizard soldering skill only need apply. Possible to attache 30g wire to every other pin, does have unmarked breakout's though. All and all the analog side is quite hackable, I think I'll add an s-vid and spdif jack to mine. One of our local channels was at least attempting to broadcast music on a sub-channel (is that the new term for it?). Hope this is helpful.
I think I just cashed out all my cool points.
If you damage my car, you're obliged to pay my repair bill even though I could easily afford it. This program is compensation for making working TV sets useless, not welfare for entertainment.
I will admit that since everyone believes that S-Video is better that some engineers may have put more effort into routing this connection but from an analog perspective there really is no difference.
Black-and-white broadcast video has a bandwidth of 4.2 MHz. (Below this is vestigial sideband; above is audio.) In composite video, only the bottom 3.0 MHz is clearly luma, and the rest is overlapped luma and chroma. There are various ways to separate the two, such as passing the signal through a comb filter bank involving band-pass and delay line stages. But this separation does involve blurring the luma to hide dot crawl, and a 1.2 MHz band for chroma muddies color boundaries. In S-Video, on the other hand, the luma can even exceed 4.2 MHz to the full 6.75 MHz of Recommendation 601 (and thus DVD-Video) for both luma and chroma.
Thanks for that info; you have already helped me partially. I guess that's the information I need to go checking around.
We bought a 37" LCD TV from Vizio. I'm actually not sure which model it was. Their web site shows three such 37" TV's, which all resemble ours but not exactly. It was a bargain price, so the cheapest is the most likely of the three, but I suspect that it is actually a discontinued model. Wish we could locate the instruction manuals, but I am beginning to think that for some reason it never came with any.
http://www.vizio.com/productCatalog.aspx?id=1506
If it has ATSC tuning capability, does it necessarily follow that it will be able to do that for the RF coax input? It wouldn't have ATSC for some other input but not the coax connector, right?
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
I checked the back of my TV, and the RF coax is labeled "TV/DTV", so it should be digital ready. Now my question is: how come I'm not receiving any digital signal from my antenna? Is it that any old antenna from decades ago is capable of receiving digital signals? Or do I need to tell building management to get off their duffs and think about upgrading the antenna?
Thanks.
(this is my second reply to your response; I posted a first response before I was able to verify that my TV was indeed digital-ready)
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
Thank you very much for your info and clarification! Also many thanks to Quikah for making this comment.
Armed with the knowledge that, yes, digital TV signals really are already present in the air, and yes, an ordinary antenna can receive those signals, and, yes, my TV can receive digital signals, I went to get an ordinary antenna with loop for the UHF band and rabbit ears for the VHF band. I got the cheapest one available. It cost $10 and looked like an ugly piece of garbage sitting atop the sleek LCD TV.
But when my wife hooked it up, lo! and behold --suddenly instead of 4 analog channels from the crappy building antenna, we got 23 analog channels and 41 digital channels! Channels that we never knew existed suddenly appeared. This included multiple channels of minority language programming that we had originally been thinking of subscribing to. And instead of the crappy signal, these came through crystal-clear. So we saved having to pay for not only the specialty cable channels that we had originally wanted, but also the basic (but worthless) cable package that they force you to get in order to get the additional specialty channels.
Thank you, Slashdot!
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]