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Looking Back At Far Cry 2
Gamasutra has an interview with Ubisoft's Patrick Redding about the development of Far Cry 2. He explains his team's reasoning behind some of the decisions they made while trying to innovate in the very well-established first-person shooter genre. Ubisoft is also trying to crowdsource a guide for the game.
"We don't want to be necessarily spoon-feed everything to people, because that gets insulting. It's also tiresome if you're constantly interrupting them to remind them things about that system. I like to learn things through trial and error, and I know a lot of players are like that. But accessibility isn't just about it being easy to pick up the controls. It's also making sure that you're supporting a certain kind of readability, giving the player a certain kind of feedback. Maybe the way to put it is that it might be less a function of the kind of low-level mechanics of the game at the control level, and more about how you're using the output of the game as good feedback for the player, so they at least are clear on the causal link between what they're doing and what's happening."
Wait. Let me understand this. They want a bunch of people to help them write a strategy guide, then they want to give it for free on the web ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H publish a book and make everyone (including those who contribute content) pay for it. Wow -- that's brave. I'll file this in the same place with folks who have a $100 logo contest. (of course, a professional would charge you more than $100 to produce a logo, but who's counting the dollars?)
Basically you drive around a lot and ambushed at every intersection.
That's the whole game, and you also look for diamonds.
they should instead be thinking about how to patch it so as to make it not so absolutely aggravating to play. no amount of explanation and hints can change the fact that this game is a dog.
I only managed to read the first few pages, then I had enough of the fawning, adulating questions like "How did you manage to make this game so awesome, when other games currently on the market are so much worse? Is it because you are so incredibly innovative, because you had so many great ideas, or is it just because this game cures cancer by being in the same room with it?"
I played Far Cry 2, and apart from pointing everyone I know at the Zero Punctuation review of the game, I have a whole litany of criticisms and bad design choices:
But it wouldn't be so bad if at least not EVERY FUCKING PERSON ON THE WHOLE PLANET hated your guts and went into murderous overdrive each time they caught sight of a pixel of you; which brings me to the enemies.
And because the clipboard is opaque you have a situation not unlike the latest Doom game: you can either see what you're shooting at or where you're going, but not both. Not to mention that, as soon as you use the ineffectual "sprint" mode, the character moves his arms at his sides and takes the map out of the viewfield, making it impossible to see where exactly you are trying to sprint to! Man, I can't tell you how often I had looked at automaps or HUDs in other games and thought how they were much too convenient and useful!
This game sucks, and the designer should IMHO spend as least five of the six pages of an interview apologizing for that giant piece of crap that is Far Cry 2...
-- Language is a virus from outer space.
I'm really curious what the opinions on this game are. If you look on metacritic there is an incredible divide between so-called "professional reviews" and the reader comments - with professional reviews having a far more positive opinion than the readers. That does not often happen, so I'm curious what happened.
So what is the reason? Were the professionals all handsomely paid off? Did some readers just not "get it"? What do other /.'ers think about it?
Made me cry it was so beautiful.
This made me think of something. In order to support open source, and if people agreed as to the method ( a very large if ___ fi ), It would be interesting to see a book called SmashDot that took all the best of /. and incorporated it into a book. I would really like to have a reference to some of the [bash, net, encryption] savvy that is available here in the comments ( beyond Googling and finding it ). Certainly the collective understanding of the /. has some value. Just think of a Beowulf cluster of frosty postmen.
That quote made absolutely no sense to me. It's a fucking video game. Not a new method of subconscious mind warp.
Do we really need to look back at Far Cry 2? I didn't even look forward to it, but aside from that, what are we looking back at? They innovated in the department of system requirements, but is it really innovation if they've done it once before already? I guess the thing is pretty and got good reviews, but so what? Where's the insight, the brilliance, the revolution? It's not Doom or Quake or Half Life or Counter-Strike or Natural Selection or System Shock or anything remotely like any of those - there's nothing to see here, move along.
Also, I think it's been three months since release - is it really the time to compile a detailed introspective and take a time out to survey the ravaged field of their accomplishments, or are post-Christmas sales merely slumping? Surely the legacy of their awesomeness will need a bit more time to accrue.
Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!
From the interview:
The reality is that we certainly have struggled with accessibility issues with the game because the openness of it made us take a much more systemic approach, for one thing. But also, it has a rhythm -- the rhythm associated with the game is really different, because of the amount of objective-to-objective movement, and the way the player is invited to use the training, use the landscape as kind of a game ingredient.
The game is not open at all. It's frustrating because it pretends to be open, but isn't... it's actually linear (albeit with more lines from one point to another than some FPSs). I hated Crysis the first time I played it. The second time I played it, I had a lot of fun. I could go just about anywhere I wanted, climbing difficult mountains for awesome sniper positions etc. In Far Cry 2 you can go hardly anywhere you want; even places that look like you should be able to go.
And then there is the repetitiveness of FC2. All the missions are the same. You eliminate a guard post and 5 minutes later all the guards are back. The AI is crazy. You can be standing there with an (AI) opponent facing away from you and you can still be taking damage from him. Not to mention the AI are DUMB. "Huh, where did he go?" when one second before they've been shooting you and you have not changed position at all. Not to mention that sometimes the AI has super vision, spotting you 1km away even though you're wearing cammo and are fully prone and not shooting. And yet the same dudes will be unable to spot you 5 metres away.
I tried to like the game, I really did. But it's just not fun.
How convenient; just today I whipped up a professional artistic rendering of the much hailed "50 sq km" (which seems to be frequently confused with 50^2 sq km). http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2576/artistrenderingue2.gif Africa is really just one big canyon -- with savannas and jungles side-by-side in its interior -- otherwise surrounded on all sides by desert.. didn't you know that?
Second time I've seen the word "crowdsource" in story summaries, in the same day. Anyone care to enlighten me as to what the hell this means? Is it some "Web 2.0" spinoff bullshit?
Fatal parse error in article: Innovate and 1st person shooter in same sentence.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
From Page 1 :
What you're describing, that sense of being in the environment and letting the environment kind of drive the experience, is a function of us building that foundation. We needed to build an infrastructure, a framework for supporting the player moving around the world kind of at his own will and using whatever resources he wants -- whether it's vehicles, boats, on foot, or what have you.
What the hell game is he talking about? The travel system they've implemented somehow creates all these magical stories out of nowhere?. The environment is basically empty outside of about three different types of checkpoints and maybe two types of safe houses. And nothing ever happens in the game without your influence. And even then, you don't actually have influence, basically you turn up somewhere, and people shoot at you. You run into people in cars who shoot before even getting a chance to identify you, or, you approach a checkpoint, and you will get shot at by before they even get a chance to identify you. All the main missions involve shooting guys that are in between you and the other thing you have to shoot, and every single assassination mission and gun running mission, which are the only two types of side mission, are the same. You shoot a truck or a person, either of which are running tight circles. It would have been interesting to see this endless repetition and respawning addressed.
They hear there are factions in the game -- that immediately implies a different kind of dynamic, right? They're like, "Oh, why is everyone shooting at me?" [laughs] Well, it's still a first-person shooter.
As if somehow the two are mutually exclusive? The reason that people question this is because yes, the inclusion of factions does imply a different kind of dynamic. But it's completely ignored; in every. fucking. mission. you are told that you are working on the sly and that even the guys who you are working "with" will shoot you because they don't know you. But it's all a moot point, because for the vast majority of the game YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT ANYONE EVER SHOOTS AT. There are factions? You could have fooled me, I've never seen two people from opposing factions run into each other and start a fire fight. I've never seen someone from faction A approach a checkpoint of faction B and get shot at. I find it hard to believe there is even faction related code in the game so far. Either that or no faction member has ever encountered It's given lip service in the intro, and mentioned by the mission descriptions, which are little more than first person, in engine cut-scenes.
I like to question some design elements. Why can't I run while reloading? Or at least interrupt the reload by running so I can reload again when safer. Why can't you interrupt the animation to yank out a bullet? The most frustrating way to die is to stand stock still and start pulling out a bullet only to realize you aren't quite as covered as you thought and then hammering everything trying to move away to cover.
In early discussions the game was touted as being in specific development for PC. Yet while you can save anywhere in the PC version, the little save boxes that are console-specific are still there. The field of view was the console style nose-against-the-screen crap that makes it hard to play for PC snobs. There was no out of the box widescreen support, why is this still happenning? Why does the game have a seemingly endless supply of mercenaries that are restocked magically every 5 minutes, yet approximately 14 zebras for the entire world? Did they ever consider implementing dangerous animals? Anything at all interesting outside of empty savannah?
He is right though, the game is a first person shooter. Of the most generic kind. It's just that they spread the limited variation of the design incredibly lightly over a large, primarily empty game, gave the impression that it was going to be an interesting adventure, and then made every one simply shoot at you.
It's a Far Cry from a classic (boom tish), and given the brilliance of the first game (ending area of that game aside), it honestly didn't deserve the Far Cry name.
> professional reviews having a far more
> positive opinion than the readers.
Could be an age thing.
I'm an old fart. When I started playing Far Cry 2 and found out that everyone in the game wanted me dead I thought, "so that's the logic of the game. Well, after all, this is a shooter, so I guess they must shoot at me and I'll shoot back".
I can well imagine thinking differently when I was 12. "This is SOOOO unreal! People don't do that in the real world! This isn't REAL! LAME! LOSE! WHINE!"
My beef with the map implementation is that the designers pretend to make something more realistic (it's not a glowy floaty map but a real, wood-and-paper object!) but then remember that they need the unrealistic component (hey, the character (as opposed to the computer AI) can't see through the dense jungle - we need to give him location markers for the bad guys!) and just slap that on, resulting in something like that magical map from Harry Potter. Why couldn't they have done it completely realistically, with a non-scrolling top-down map with the general topographical features and maybe a separate motion tracker gizmo with the enemy positions on it? Why did they have to significantly downgrade the usability of a feature and use the excuse of "realism"? It's this pretense that really bothers me, the arbitrariness that serves as an excuse to make the game unnecessarily complicated.
-- Language is a virus from outer space.
It would be interesting to see a book called SmashDot that took all the best of /. and incorporated it into a book.
Slashdot doesn't have (or even claim to have) copyright to the comments. Any claim that they have an implied license to publish them in a for-sale book would be extremely dubious. So "best of" would be out of the question - maybe a much more limited collection of comments they managed to get permission to reproduce would be practical.
This and Fallout 3 came out around the same time. Initial reviews for both were very positive.
This was £25 and Fallout 3 £30, so I went for this. Boy do I ever regret it.
Makes me think all the reviewers ever did was play the intro drive and be wowed by the graphics (which are incredibly detailed and well done). After that, it becomes a big ball of suck.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the comments already made about the retarded auto-respawning checkpoints, murderous AI who home in on your exact position if they catch sight of one pixel of you, etc there are some positives in the game.
Firstly, it looks great. As a showpiece for the DUNA engine it excels admirably. Whilst there will be some who debate about whether Crysis looks better, personally speaking I found Far Cry 2 to look just as good in "high" settings, at twice the FPS and at much higher resolutions. I can comfortably run the game in 2560x1600 on an almost bleeding-edge system and see things like this whereas in Crysis I could only run it in a much smaller resolution. In that respect, as an engine, it is a great technological accomplishment.
Secondly whilst the core AI had its faults there were aspects of it which made me ponder its deeper aspects. I came across one guy who was stuck inside a rock (not a great advert for AI granted) who I heard say "This is crazy I can't see anything from here". Another time, later in the game, I encountered two guys who whilst chattering made reference to a mercenary (me) who was "killing people from miles away". One of them remarked "you'll never see him coming, you'll just end up dead". Throughout the game I had been focusing on killing from afar with sniper rifles, very rarely bothering with CQC. Now, you could argue that this was just a coincidence but the accuracy of what they were saying was uncanny.
All in all whilst the core AI (checkpoints, zeroing in on fleeting targets, etc) seemed dumb, there were nuances to it which made me think there are layers under the surface and intrigued me enough to warrant completing the game.
yeah, this game is hard for vista that i used, bad in graphics and story. ubisoft must learn from Electronic Arts (EA) about good combining between sound and real graphics. i must setting back my videocard (geforce 7200GS) on control panel to have good performance for this game. and memory used make me sick. maybe ubisoft must restructurized the people behind the game.
The really frustrating thing about Far Cry 2 was the hype beforehand. I read a very interesting article before the game was released, where the developers talked about the amount of effort they'd put in on the narrative flow of the game, to make the storyline truly dynamic, allowing the player to influence the plot. Thanks to this, I was expecting a lot from the game.
What I actually saw the first time I played was a sub-standard FPS, with some very bad design decisions, and literally zero noticeable innovation. I gave up after a few hours play. I was extremely glad that I played it at a friend's house, I would have been most annoyed to pay good money for it.
Maybe it's a reasonably fun game once you get into it, but I was expecting so much from it that I was bound to be disappointed. This kind of hype does no-one any good in the long run.
How about a mental one? Not top-down, really, but sort of a mental overlay ghost image as if it's a programatic way of hearing the antagonist think to himself:
"I remember the camp was just round the corner of that cliff edge, and there was a boat next to it and I could see 5 people armed in it. There was a lookup post that could see it too further up the cliff and another station that is just this side of the top of it, I can see it just there."
You can't do that without implants into your brain and a lot better computer, so you have to guess a visual way of doing it.
Automaps do this no problem. As far as realism goes, it's too accurate and too often updates in real time accurately too.
And the XRay vision was the huge problem for me in MOH:AA. You'd be deep in the bushes and you can't see the smoke of the sniper, but HE can see YOU. Or a sniper in the building around the corner, snipes AS SOON AS you come into view. You never catch him smoking a fag eating his dinner or just looking around, do you. 100% on guard 100% the time, ALWAYS looking through the scope.
Far Cry 2 is a first-person shooter rendition of Jagged Alliance 2. Technically innovative - yes. But there are no new ideas in it.
Hi, I bought a PS3 and together FacCry2 and Resistance 2 (without know anything about Resi2). Here in the UK FarCry 2 was OVER-advertized, so I thought, "must be at least a good game". Guess what, luckyly I had Resi2 to play during xmas holidays, that was a great game. I'll try to resell FarCry 2 asap. Even if I get 10 quids out of it I'll consider myself lucky. The graphics SUCKS (at least compared to Resi 2 and/or Haze and/or Force Unleashed), the gameplay is worse and the story is pathetic! Really worst game ever....and ask yourself why there's piracy...this is rubbish game. Kudos to the devs that managed to get a free trip to Africa with the excuse to make a (supposedly) great game. I'm disgusted,
Jon Katz didn't have a problem re-publishing slashdot columbine comments in dead tree format without permission.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
"Innovation" doesn't mean squat if, at the end of the day, you produce an annoying, tedious grindfest.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Yes, this game is truly dreadful. I kept hoping for a special mission that deviated from the norm.
You know--take out the helicopter...or get IN a helicopter! Being able to buy a helicopter just to get from one end of the map to the other would have been a nice touch.
But the pure repetition of this game is what made it so dreadful. If you complete ONE mission in this game, you know exactly what the next dreadful remaining hours of this game will be like.
Oh, and I hated the fucking diamond search. You realize how pointless it is after spending too much time doing it. OH LOOK a diamond is close by. Stop the jeep, get out and track to it. Just to find a single diamond, when the most basic mission gives you at least 10!
Never have I despised a game so much for wasting my time.
was the best part IMO. Being able to mould the ground any way you want, change from day to night instantly, draw on foliage etc....it's great fun for a geek like me. I made a kind of tropical Endor-like island with hills, forests, buildings, vehicals and suspended wooden walkways and huts, all in a few hours. After spending a while using it I was struck at just how dull the actual game was and how easy it would have been to make it more interesting.
Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
It's completely possible to innovate in an FPS, it just doesn't sound like FC2 does.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Yeah first person shooters are totally overdone, and third person shooters are starting to. Someone should create a second person shooter for a change.
Mada mada dane.
Yawn.
One of the things they were pimping about the game was the buddy system. All I got out from it was that it was just an extra life system. Make a buddy and get killed? They'll miraculously find you and take you to cover.
My personal opinion of the game is that for something that took four years to develop, the game world is pretty empty.
DJCC
I didn't like the game either, even after playing through 52% of the game. I couldn't even get the game to run with any stability - I would be playing a mission and it would instantly crash to desktop with no error window, no explanation of any kind of what went wrong. At the time I had at least 3 other "recently" released mainstream games on my machine (Fallout 3, Crysis, HL2:EP2) and none of them crash instantly to the desktop. I emailed Steam support asking them for a refund. They said it was against their policy to issue a refund, but they gave me my $49.95 back anyways as a "one time customer service gesture" At least there was that silver lining - as far as I'm concerned the people at Steam support are great.
We don't want to be necessarily spoon-feed everything to people, because that gets insulting. It's also tiresome if you're constantly interrupting them to remind them things about that system. I like to learn things through trial and error, and I know a lot of players are like that.
I haven't played the game, don't plan to. But the attitude in the quote above just totally pisses me off?
Spoon feeding? Interrupting them?
It's called a manual you twat. Things worth having generally come with one. OK well girlfriends don't. But almost everything else does. Cars, television, cellphones, kitchen appliances, and yes, not coincidentally, computer games.
I'm not asking for the Bradygames Strategy Guide hold-my-hand walk-through when I buy the game. But one thing I do like to have is a manual that tells me how things generally work. Games have rules. Helps if you tell the players what they are.
Can you imagine buying a game in the store, opening it up and not finding any rules? Monopoly would be a blast without any rules wouldn't it? Or Scrabble? Or Boggle? Just make 'em up as you go along. Wouldn't that be fun?
I think the point of the game is to keep you moving. You can fight people everywhere which will sap your meds. The more effective strategy is to blow through guard posts and then stop to mop up any pursuers.
The map isn't really that big, so there isn't all that much traveling. If you use the bus stops and cars and boats you can get to any mission area within 5-10 minutes. That isn't so long.
The enemies are low tech but numerous. That seems pretty realistic to me. It is often hard to identify where enemies are firing from. Since you are in a bloody jungle that also seems fine.
My favorite shooting game of all time is Operation Flashpoint on computer. It was endlessly expandable and editable, and engagements took place over much more realistic distances(50-100+ yards). In that game you'd creep into place over half an hour and the fight would be done in a few minutes. Far Cry 2 rewards that kind of stealth play, without completely forcing you into it.
It is nice to see a non-linear battle game that isn't set in a GTA style city. Enemies shouldn't shoot that well, or pursue that ruthlessly; that is not a situation unique to FC2 though.
Full marks.
It sounds to me like you'd rather be playing Metal Gear Solid. Then again, you'd probably gripe about the long cutscenes and the bizarre bosses.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Sure a pro would charge more than $100, but someone who isn't a pro, would not get anything normally, and this is a chance for them to get $100 for a simple design.
You need to look at the big picture, and both sides of the coin.
How about 3.11 person shooters for workgroups? I think I'll just wait so that when that gets old 4th person shooters?
Anybody else think the weapon statistics were complete bullshit?
Choose between an AK47 or a Makarov 9mm handgun - choose the handgun because it actually jams less, more accurate, and you can find so much ammo you can snipe people by unloading 3 clips.
Shotguns do next to zero damage unless you're point-blank and even then half the time when its the Striker semi-auto.
An M79 grenade launcher classifies as a pistol? So you mean I can take a grenade launcher, M249 LMG, and whatever else? Those annoying ass cars that keep running you down? It's ok, just jump outta your car and blow 'em to hell, not with your 100rnd LMG, but with a pocket sized rocket launcher!
Which brings another point - choose from M79, Bulldog cylinder grenade launcher, RPG7, or Carl Gustave rocket launcher? Again, the M79 - the RPG misfires, breaks, or veers off, the Gustave is even worse, and the MGL is pointless since being it's supposedly the most powerful weapon in the game, yet it jams every 2 shots and is better to take an LMG or even striker.
Choose between the already shitty AK or the even worse CAR-15 knockoff that's too underpowered to do anything.
Multiplayer was 4x times worse because it's just spray and pray tactics, unless you're playing on a map where people are using sniper rifles...
</rant>