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Two Big Tests For Personal Rapid Transportation

Al writes "A novel kind of transit system, in which cars are replaced by a network of automated electric vehicles, is about to get its first large-scale testing and deployment. Two of these Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) systems are being installed this year, one at Heathrow International Airport, near London, and one in the United Arab Emirates, where it will be the primary source of transportation in Masdar City, a development that will eventually accommodate 50,000 people and 1,500 businesses and is designed to emit no carbon dioxide. The article examines these two systems and includes video that includes an animation of the PRT system in action."

299 comments

  1. This will revolutionize transportation... by oodaloop · · Score: 5, Funny

    just like the Segway did!

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    1. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Endo13 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Mall cops use Segways you insensitive clod!

      (The funny thing is, they really DO, around here.)

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    2. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PLEASE tell me they also say "Look at me! I'm the bum of the future!"

    3. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...just like the Segway did!

      Nice segue.

    4. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I saw a cop on a Segway at the airport a couple of weeks ago and for the life of me I couldn't understand what benefits such a clumsy way of moving around might have over walking. Save some of the calories from donuts? Employ disabled cops? I don't get it.

    5. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by jo_ham · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Speed. You can cover a lot of ground without expending energy over the course of your long shift in the huge terminal you're patrolling, and when you step off it you're not "tired out" from getting to where you're needed.

      (assuming the cop in question actually does maintain a fitness regime commensurate with a job where being grossly unfit would be a severe hindrance - I know some cops who do, and some who don't - in the former case, the Segway is just a tool for the job, in the latter case, it is a crutch to overcome being breathless right before an arrest.)

    6. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "assuming the cop in question actually does maintain a fitness regime commensurate with a job where being grossly unfit would be a severe hindrance"

      You know, I've often wondered if Police depts around the country actually have minimum physical standards that all street cops have to pass. If they do, how freakin' low are these minimums?

      I mean, I see a LOT of officers that could not run a block without heart failure, and with guts so large, they have a hard time fitting under a steering wheel of a car.

      I think if anything, we might want more cops walking a beat again....to keep them in good physical condition.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by sir_eccles · · Score: 1

      I've seen a couple of cops on segways in an outside environment that makes me think a bicycle would be a better option.

      My main beef with them is that you are no longer talking at eye level. They are raised up above you. The cop doesn't step off the thing to talk to you, they talk down at you then trundle off.

    8. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by ethana2 · · Score: 1

      Only if they patentmonger it.

    9. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by furby076 · · Score: 1

      So it's your own semi-personal (probably 4-8 people) mono-rail car? Big whoop?

      Though the submission post sounded like something the patent office would take and patent, even though mono-rail has been around for quit sometime.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    10. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Zencyde · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean they'll have to redesign cities?

      Oh wait, they actually might.

      --
      What day is it? Could you please tell me?
    11. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by gnick · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They typically (always?) have to meet a set of minimum physical standards to get hired. However, they are not often required to maintain those standards once employed. Professional firefighters, on the other hand, typically have to meet a much stricter set of standards to get hired and maintaining their health is certainly a condition of employment. I know a cop here (captain now) who tried for about a decade to get into the fire department but, once he finally passed the physical entrance screen he was so close to retirement that he decided to just stick it out with the police force. (The guy's in incredible shape - I don't know what they put the firefighters through, but it must be rough.)

      That said, I can think of a bunch of good reasons for cops to walk a beat rather than patrolling. If not just for health, just to lower the barrier a little between them and the rest of us grunts - For their sake and ours.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    12. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      Cops cannot bring in revenue by walking a beat.

      Aside:
      But sometimes they get ridiculous. I was ticketed for not having a bell on my bicycle while riding on a path that excludes motor vehicles; by a cop driving a car on the path (taking up the whole path and forcing walkers, runners, and cyclists off into the woods).

      He wrote me up for a vehicle and traffic law violation; the VAT does not cover the type of path I was on.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    13. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by geobeck · · Score: 1

      The guy's in incredible shape - I don't know what they put the firefighters through, but it must be rough.

      I knew someone who trained as a firefighter once. He told me one of the requirements was to be able to carry a 200 pound person down a steep ladder (can't remember how high).

      As for me, I could make sure a 200 pound person got to the bottom of the ladder--but they might be a bit flatter after the trip.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    14. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Funny

      As a big plus, hacking the automated navigation on these will also revolutionize the kidnapping industry!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    15. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I saw a cop on a Segway at the airport a couple of weeks ago and for the life of me I couldn't understand what benefits such a clumsy way of moving around might have over walking. Save some of the calories from donuts? Employ disabled cops? I don't get it.

      The height is a significant advantage.
      The ability to cross an airport quickly without expending energy is another.

    16. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My main beef with them is that you are no longer talking at eye level. They are raised up above you.

      The height is an advantage. Its not a 'birds eye view', but it gets them up over the crowd a bit, which is enough to make a big difference.

      And of course they can cross an airport quickly without expending energy which can come in handy in an actual emergency.

      The talking down thing is sort of a bonus, because its a 'position of power', while its annoying if you are just chatting, in theory it the height advantage might be useful for directing crowds and issuing instructions in an emergency. The height would give them a bit more authority and make them more visible... both which would make them more effective.

    17. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by EricTheMad · · Score: 1

      Not sure about the requirements for other fire, but this is pretty close to what is required by our local department. Of course, the guy in the video is doing it in about half of the required time.

      --
      -- Remember, we're not happy until you're not happy. -- Local FAA Inspector --
    18. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      As for the height thing, many cities still use horses in dense urban areas (though I've never seen them at an airport). It gives the cop a major height advantage, as well as the speed to chase down a suspect (though it's probably a little slower getting off a horse than a Segway).

      Personally, I like the horses better. Nobody asks if they can pet the cop's Segway.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
    19. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      As for the height thing, many cities still use horses in dense urban areas (though I've never seen them at an airport).

      I'm not sure a horse would work well in an airport. They are too big for a lot of areas... and they periodically need to relieve themselves.

    20. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Patch86 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well its not rally a monorail, since it doesn't involve any rails (not even the one). The vehicles have rubber wheels like normal cars, and the "track" is just a piece of concrete with any electrical paraphernalia that might be needed to feed the vehicle.

      Thats actually a pretty big advantage. Its really really difficult to build switches for monorails, meaning they're mostly limited to just a single simple circuit. Switching on trains is obviously plenty doable, but its complicated and expensive. Having "tracked" vehicles working on normal rubber wheels means you can do away with rail switching altogether, which is exactly what makes it possible to have 100's of little vehicles using the the same track at the same time, heading in different directions.

    21. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by glittalogik · · Score: 1

      Nobody asks if they can pet the cop's Segway.

      Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

    22. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. I was written up for riding my dirt bike on an eight foot wide sidewalk with no pedestrian traffic when I was about 12 years old. The alternative was to ride my bike on a six-lane state highway during rush hour that didn't even have a real shoulder much less a bike lane.

    23. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by instarx · · Score: 1

      I saw a cop on a Segway at the airport a couple of weeks ago and for the life of me I couldn't understand what benefits such a clumsy way of moving around might have over walking. Save some of the calories from donuts? Employ disabled cops? I don't get it.

      Height: A cop on a Segway stands taller than the crowds and has excellent visibility of the area and people. I also saw an officer directing traffic at a polling place during the election using a Segway. He was clearly visible from a distance and it greatly helped his directions to be understood.

      And like the other reply: speed. I;m sure the cop you saw at the airport was moving slowly, but that doesn't mean he has to.

    24. Re:This will revolutionize transportation... by bandmassa · · Score: 1

      ...and they DO emit CO2. CO2 is emitted during manufacture, and with 80% of the world's energy being carbon-thermal, any such system is going to be responsible for at least some increase in CO2 emission. The only truly sustainable urban transport model in the current energy network is the bicycle.

      --
      "I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
  2. What is really wrong with trains? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These pods look cute and all, but do they really do anything that trains and buses don't? The trains at SFO and SeaTac do a great job.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      Trains need a driver. And drivers cost money!

    2. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They leave at the second you want to leave and can probably stop exactly where you want to stop.

      Instead of trying to speed up and slow down an entire train every 1/2 mile you're only accelerating and stopping these once per passenger.

      I didn't RTFA, but the systems I've seen in the past have little 'bypasses' at each stop. You get in and punch in a destination. If you're at your destination you get off. If you're not you keep on whizzing by. It's faster so people would be more apt to use it. (You're not going to waste 3/4 of the trip slowing down and speeding up to somewhere you're not going.)

    3. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Uttles · · Score: 1

      Does IP do anything that Tokenring doesn't? Come on man, really. I've been an advocate of PRT's for a long time, I really hope they show their worth.

      --

      ~ now you know
    4. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Trains only need one driver for potentially hundreds of people. Although it is funny to think that it is possible to make a taxi with no driver, but a train needs a driver even though it runs on a track.

    5. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "These pods look cute and all, but do they really do anything that trains and buses don't? The trains at SFO and SeaTac do a great job."

      I dunno about that, but, one thing they do have in common, is that neither will get you door-to-door travel, and won't generally be as fast or on your schedule.

      Man..I hope I don't live to see the day when this kind of thing is forced on us where I live. I like my independence to come and go exactly when I please.

      And if it is a nice day...I like taking my motorcycle.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but count tonnage per passenger and I think you'll find the cars are a lot worse for efficiency, so the accelerating and stopping per passenger is a lot worse for the personal vehicles.

      These are convenient only for places they go, as well. They either need to be as big and safe as a car, or they need tracks like a train.

      As far as I can tell, the only thing they have going for them is being electric instead of fuel, and being so ugly nobody would try to steal it.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    7. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2

      Yea, but it loses the efficiency of scale. A bus only needs 1 engine, for this you need 1 engine for every 1 or 2 people. A bus would use the same amount of energy to stop and let 10 people off, as it would to stop and let 1 off.

      Given a source of cheap clean energy, I can see these being cool. Otherwise, some larger system would be more efficient.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    8. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Toe,+The · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it scales up, it then can be compared to cars, not trains.

      The benefits a system like this has over cars are:
      - Vastly reduced fatalities to occupants (though perhaps pedestrians can still be struck by them)
      - Vastly reduced production resources - instead of everyone having a car, you just "call a cab"
      - Vastly reduced pollution - since you can centralize the power source, instead of having cars spewing everywhere
      - Vastly reduced parking resources - these can just roam or idle in compact storage, instead of requiring parking spots at every house and every destination
      - Vastly reduced traffic congestion - since traffic is controlled by robotic overlords
      - Get as drunk as you want while you "drive" - or alternately, work, play, etc. while you are transported

    9. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And they work all night around. A blame I hold against most mass transit systems.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    10. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trains and buses can't go everywhere cars can and these things can. That's the point. When was the last time the train or bus came to pick you up at your house or work or the mall?

    11. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      By all means, trains will still be used, but i can see the benefit in NOT paying 1000+ taxi drivers and having them unionup on your ass any time they feel like it!

    12. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Kozz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've got no concrete info to back this up, only my gut -- but I wonder if providing small, relatively private transportation pods could backfire (as much as I would like it to succeed).

      People may feel like the pod they're currently in is "theirs". And we've seen what people do in their own cars and how they can treat them: eating, smoking, littering, f#%&ing, you name it. Then consider also what people do in/on city buses and subway systems. After a pod has been in service for the first 48 hours, will it be clean/sanitary enough that others will want to use it?

      I certainly wouldn't want to find people's stale McDonald's french fries, mysterious sticky substances on the seats, etc. At least on mass transit, you're sharing the space so there's a certain social pressure to respect others to some degree, but would this evaporate in the privacy of "your own pod"?

      --
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    13. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trains do NOT need a driver:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

    14. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Trains don't need drivers. Trains are functionally equivalent to horizontal elevators. Close the doors, travel to next stop, open the doors, lather rinse repeat. The driver can be replaced with a dollar's worth of electronics.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    15. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A bus would use the same amount of energy to stop and let 10 people off, as it would to stop and let 1 off.

      EXACTLY. Why run an enormous diesel (or electric, or CNG) motor to move around an entire bus, if the payload that needs to be transported is only a single person?

      The PRT approach allows the energy expendicture of system to scale almost exactly with demand, albeit with a larger overhead at peak usage than traditional mass transit.

    16. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by midnightkiller · · Score: 0

      They won't smell like crap (unless you are a slob)

    17. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by qbzzt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Otherwise, some larger system would be more efficient.

      More energy efficient, but less time efficient. It depends on the relative value of people's time vs. energy.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    18. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Then consider also what people do in/on city buses and subway systems. "

      Never been on or seen one (especially a subway)....please elaborate, what do people do on them?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    19. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Gospodin · · Score: 1

      Trains are functionally equivalent to horizontal elevators. Close the doors, travel to next stop, open the doors, lather rinse repeat. The driver can be replaced with a dollar's worth of electronics.

      Partially true. But it's much less likely for stuff to fall on the "tracks" of an elevator (since they're both vertical and enclosed). I want a driver who can stop a train if there's damage ahead or a cow lying on the tracks. Granted, you can design systems to automate this checking, but they cost more than a dollar.

      That said, we have a monorail on Newark Liberty Airport that has no drivers. Works fine. I don't know if they have sensors or if they simply do periodic inspection - for such short lengths of elevated track the chances of something dangerous falling on them is probably small.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    20. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Kagato · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's right on. If you do a lot of travel you see several peak times during the day, and a lot of off peak times. it's not uncommon to see a train/tram/whatever running fairly empty. That's a lot of wasted energy.

      The real question of these systems won't be if they can save money per passenger, it's can they spin up and handle the load at peak times.

    21. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by eobanb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would imagine that a PRT system like this would work best in conjunction with other mass transit and personal transit systems, preferably integrated into one overall system. Just like the only way to replace fossil fuels is with a combination of renewable resources, the only way to really replace cars is with a combination of transit systems. On really heavy, major routes, I would think that trams/trains/buses would be the best. On lighter routes, (especially flowing out from urban to suburban areas), PRTs would be best, with dozens of small branch lines to take people within just a block or two of where they live.

      This is how cars will eventually be replaced.

      --

      Take off every sig. For great justice.

    22. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ForrestFire439 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's just me but I'd rather drive. I'm the type of guy that prefers a manual to an automatic. I certainly would prefer driving to being shuttled around by some computer. I guess it might be a good alternative to subways in cities where the roads are already too congested but for the most part I'd rather drive- even if it means paying more and being more dangerous. Also how are they going to deal with broken down units? I think flying cars are the future. People like having control.

      --
      "Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure." --Robert Heinlien
    23. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Except when everything is tied to the same grid you can use one big 'battery' at the end of the line. Every time a vehicle brakes you can dump the energy back to the grid. A huge underground flywheel would be ideal. If every car tried to accelerate at once you could dump it out of the fly wheel and vice versa (just make sure you size your power lines to handle the load).

      For aerodynamic efficiency you could easily pair one or two pods together to go a long distance. If I'm going across town and there's a personal pod coming up that is going to the similar location the system could sync our vehicles up for the longest portion of the drive.

    24. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by nyctopterus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also a large part of the London Underground network runs without drivers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLR

    25. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I want a driver who can stop a train if there's damage ahead or a cow lying on the tracks.

      And I want to get rid of the drivers, who don't exactly have a great "track" record.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    26. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by nyctopterus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Generally, nothing. People love going on about this, but in every city I've lived in (Canberra, Sydney, Toronto, and London )the public transport has been clean. You're much more likely to run into disastrous misplacement of bodily fluids on the street.

    27. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Instead of trying to speed up and slow down an entire train every 1/2 mile you're only accelerating and stopping these once per passenger.

      But of course you have to run the huge train or bus off-peak, too. Otherwise, people won't be able to depend on mass transit and will drive. So as a result, even the vaunted NYC mass-transit system isn't - on average - that much better than if people were just being hauled around in individual cabs.

      Some mix is probably the right thing to do. Peak hours run a combination of express and local trains, just like today. But then switch over to these little personal cars on the same tracks during off-peak times. You simply can't beat a train for passengers per hour.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    28. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Bruiser80 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My understanding is that it's an automated taxi, essentially.

      It's true that the traveling range and the grid that they work on is an issue.

      As for theft, there is no ability to steal the car. It's connected to a grid, with no means of driving it off the grid. It has no use outside the grid, making it pointless to steal.

      Vandalism on the other hand... :-)

      --
      Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the engineer enjoys it.
    29. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by superdave80 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A bus only needs 1 engine, for this you need 1 engine for every 1 or 2 people.

      Yes, but what happens when that bus has only 1 or 2 (or zero) people? You waste a lot of energy moving around a heavy, empty bus.

      A bus would use the same amount of energy to stop and let 10 people off, as it would to stop and let 1 off.

      And it would use the same amount of energy to stop and let zero people off, which it does many times a day. This is a waste of energy, and a waste of time for the people on the bus.

      Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. It seems that the best way to make use of the two systems is to have scheduled bus service only during peak hours to make use of the efficiency of a fully loaded bus, and have the automated system to handle off-peak traffic. This would avoid the waste of large empty buses wasting energy.

    30. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Spatial · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Control" and "Flying car" are mutually exclusive, I suspect. People are bad enough at driving in two dimensions, let alone three.

    31. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      You could take pictures of the people in the pod to help police find vandals. To get really Orwellian, you could even require a fingerprint for entry so that you could lock them out of the system if they caused trouble in the past.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    32. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Toe,+The · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sure; most people love driving. It has become part of the "American way" for some reason.

      But how does "liking" something compare to killing tens of thousands of people each year, causing massive destruction of ecosystems, causing other vast climactic changes, draining natural resources, and destroying watersheds (with pavement)?

      Is a little enjoyment really worth all that? Can't you go drive bumper cars or play a driving game or something?

      Heck, lots of guys enjoy having sex with lots of varied women every day. But something prevents them from grabbing the nearest hottie and having their way with her. I think it has something to do with... social responsibility.

    33. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People like having control, sure. People who are as pathological about it as you are are called control freaks. It costs more to you and to everyone around you and you acknowledge it's more dangerous to life and limb, yet you still insist on manual control of 1-2 tons of steel, including dependence on a primitive manual transmission lever you have to flip with your own hand?

      Wanting to drive for fun is one thing. Wanting to drive for control is nuts. Driving in any large metro area is nothing but an exercise in frustration anyway, if your goal is control. You're surrounded night and day by hundreds of other vehicles and you don't control a single one of them. You're forced to proceed at the pace of the vehicle in front of you and no faster, many times. You're forced to stop repeatedly at stop lights for other vehicles, or even for nothing at all, because the light will turn red regardless. Doesn't sound like you have much personal control over the experience at all, if you ask me.

      And flying cars, if they ever exist in the numbers that automobiles exist today, will be computer controlled and it will be criminally illegal to fly on manual over a metro area. Bet on it.

    34. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

      Not at SFO, they don't (and not on the DLR, as mentioned below).

    35. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by gnick · · Score: 2, Funny

      As for theft, there is no ability to steal the car. It's connected to a grid, with no means of driving it off the grid. It has no use outside the grid, making it pointless to steal.

      You just summed up the single failing point of the Great Bumper Car Heist of '97 that I organized... Man, did we have a tough time explaining that one to the cops.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    36. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      I also prefer driving a car with a manual transmission, good road feel, and limited computer intervention. I prefer driving just about anything to taking the bus.

      So I started biking to work. Ten miles each way. I am in control. Plus, I get exercise, fresh air, and a better view.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    37. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After a pod has been in service for the first 48 hours, will it be clean/sanitary enough that others will want to use it?

      So give people the option to reject the pod as being unsanitary. Then it goes off to the depot and if somebody checks it out and it's really gross the previous person gets a fine of some kind. Sure somebody might get a pod, dump trash in, then reject it, but presumably a good bureaucracy can account for this.

      This creates a balance between 'clean enough' and waiting for another pod.

    38. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by D+Ninja · · Score: 1

      I'm looking forward to a flying car that travels through time. Four dimensions, baby!

    39. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Dmala · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Another huge benefit: no schedule. A bus or a train with a fixed schedule can make it very difficult to be flexible with work hours. Stay 10 minutes late, and you can spend hours waiting for the next bus or train or making other arrangements if you miss the last one. The idea of being able to just show up at a station at any time, hop in a pod, and head directly to my destination is very appealing.

    40. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by number17 · · Score: 1

      I would mod you up if I had points. Some people just don't know how to clean the inside of their car. I've smelt far worse cars then subways, and seen so much more trash in the back seat than a bus.

      The inside could not have any fabric and be entirely stainless steel with a drain in the centre so that it could be powerwashed easily.

      People will do all of the things mentioned because nobody is there to stop them. Any damage was 'done by the guy before me'. Security cameras might deter it (cover it up), and credit card purchase could track the user. Now think of the possibilities of tracking where people go.

    41. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      they didn't appear to be owned by a person. appears (in the video at least) they plan a smart phone type app. So you you key in when/where your going, they choose the closest "connect" to get you moving in the correct direction. If the app chooses the train as part of your route, your smart car drops you off at the train, but you know you'll have a smart car at the other end of the train as well. If you got room in your car on the way to the train, it will pickup anyone else heading the same direction.

      Basically it should leverage not having to have as many stops on the train, IE if all traffic is reduced by a smart system, you can exit the train to waiting shuttles smoothly. So you don't need a close train stop, and you don't have the Taxi problems of having a extra person always driving, and you know ahead of time who else can leverage the same car.

      so fewer cars means less traffic, less stops, fewer ugly roads, thus better efficiency in the vehicles...

    42. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by geobeck · · Score: 1

      Trains do NOT need a driver:

      See also: SkyTrain

      However, automated light rail isn't necessarily cheaper than piloted light rail, depending on the technology used.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    43. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Dmala · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love driving, too, but for my daily commute I'd just as soon be shuttled around. Creeping through traffic and trying not to get hit by bozos on cell phones is not what I consider "driving." Let the bus driver (train engineer, pod computer, etc.) deal with it while I relax. I usually get another 20-30 minutes of sleep a day just dozing on the bus.

    44. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by smitke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The beauty of these "pods" is that one is at the station waiting for you whenever you show up. You don't have to match your schedule to the train/bus schedule.

      The issue is integrating the tracks into current urban settings so that you only have to walk a couple blocks between the station and your destination. Elevated or submerged tracks and stations seem like the only feasible solution but both have enormous investment costs.

      These pods will never work over longer distances which might be what you are referring to with door-to-door travel. But people would be far more likely to take a train from LA to SF or NY to DC if they could count on a pod being ready at the station to take them to within a couple blocks of there destination within the city.

    45. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by smitke · · Score: 1

      Detect vandalism and other "unapproved" activity and take the accused directly to a transit station or worse a police station for processing. They aren't driving so "big brother" can enforce a disciplinary detour to discourage unwanted activities.

    46. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by rpunit · · Score: 1

      I will second that. Here is a nice video from google tech talk that explains it all. like many new ideas, we may never know how good it is till its been tried out at some scale. I am pretty sure metro rail had its share of skeptics with the idea was first floated.

      --
      It's my sick-nature you know !! http://techrc.blogspot.com
    47. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by thewils · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some trains don't need any drivers at all. The "Skytrain" system in Vancouver is driverless.

      --
      Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    48. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by russotto · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does IP do anything that Tokenring doesn't?

      Comparing a network layer protocol to a physical and data link layer one? That's good for a 6-month suspension of your geek card... turn it in, right now.

    49. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by catbertscousin · · Score: 1

      It's pathological to like driving your own manual transmission car? Does that mean I'm pathological for liking my fully manual SLR film camera because it gives me better control of the image than a little point-and-click?

      I don't care what cameras other people use, it's a free country, they can even use a camera phone if they want. I just like using my manual film camera because I like the pictures I get. Not because I have to control every detail or I feel insecure, but because I like fiddling with settings to get the best image I can. What's pathological about that?

      --
      No good deed goes unpunished. - Avon, Blake's 7
    50. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Hanyin · · Score: 1

      People may feel like the pod they're currently in is "theirs". And we've seen what people do in their own cars and how they can treat them: eating, smoking, littering, f#%&ing, you name it. Then consider also what people do in/on city buses and subway systems. After a pod has been in service for the first 48 hours, will it be clean/sanitary enough that others will want to use it?

      I imagine that there's a simple solution to this, for the food and vandelism you could identify the culprits with the payment method (like a rechargeable card that linked to your ID) combined with videocameras. The cameras would also prevent most people from having sex in them if the videos are played on TV like they do in Spain ;-). Of course, the thing I dislike about this is "they" could find out exactly when and where you go any time you use this service.

    51. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The beauty of these "pods" is that one is at the station waiting for you whenever you show up. You don't have to match your schedule to the train/bus schedule.

      The issue is integrating the tracks into current urban settings so that you only have to walk a couple blocks between the station and your destination. Elevated or submerged tracks and stations seem like the only feasible solution but both have enormous investment costs.

      These pods will never work over longer distances which might be what you are referring to with door-to-door travel. But people would be far more likely to take a train from LA to SF or NY to DC if they could count on a pod being ready at the station to take them to within a couple blocks of there destination within the city."

      Well, when I say door-to-door, I'm literally talking about this for any destination in my city, for example, New Orleans. Not a huge town by any stretch, but, with the suburbs of Metairie and Kenner...it is spread out a decent bit. (Nothing like this nightmare would be in say, Houston).

      But I don't see walking a few blocks from my house, to a station, and from station to final destination would work for me at least. The winters are fairly mild, so not that big a deal in winter, BUT, come spring and summer...we get LOTS of rain. And as low as the city is, a good hard rain for an hour or so, well some streets flood..so, you'd have to be wading through water...or when the humidity starts in earnest (my airconditioner comes on in late April and stays on 99.99% of the time through end of Nov.)...well, you walk a block and your are sweat soaked. Neither of these are really great for a business environment.

      My thoughts also...with regard to pods or other public transportation that people keep advocating here is...how the hell do you shop?

      Me? I like to cook...weekly I scan through the sale ads of the various grocery stores in the area. I find what's on sale at each store, and plan my meals around that. To get the best deal on things, most of the time I hit 2 maybe 3 stores. When things are on sale, I like to buy in bulk, such as last weekend when bone-in rib roasts (choice grade) was only $3.99/lb. I bought a $70 roast, cooked half, froze half.). Now, how am I to do all my shopping and carry that stuff around between stations even on the nice days? On any given weekend when I buy food...I'm easily spending $120-$200 avg (it is a bit higher when I buy booze/beer/wine too) and it takes me 3-5 trips to the car to unload it. No way can I cart all that around on public transportation, and I'm only a single guy, I can't imagine how families would do it?

      I've heard it put forth...to shop a little all week, well, that isn't really working. I usually spend my Sundays cooking...3-5 main dishes and sides. That way I can take my lunches all week to work...I can leave work and hit the gym straight off...and when I get home about 7pm...I can warm up food for dinner and actually have a couple hours to do stuff at home before bedtime. I can't do all that and be shopping and cooking every night.

      Those are just two big time impediments in my life which make me wonder how people that don't live in a hugely densely packed urban city (like NYC) can live on a public transpart scheme. It is a completely different lifestyle outside that type of environment. I'll not even get into people needing to haul things (wood, boats, a friend of mine runs pinball machines all over)....how are you going to do that without door-to-door transportation 99% of the time?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    52. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by atamido · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The idea that I've seen put forth is that the tracks can be much smaller than a regular train as the pod is very light (only need sitting room for 3 people). This means you can easily and cheaply (relatively) build elevated tracks above sidewalks or roads, so you can put a train stop just about anywhere. Because of decreased expense, you get more tracks and more stops, increasing their usefulness.

      Normal trains require quite a bit of space and expense to build a track.

    53. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      These pods look cute and all, but do they really do anything that trains and buses don't? The trains at SFO and SeaTac do a great job.

      I think the main point of these is that the pod goes straight to the destination station without having to stop at every station in between, meaning much shorter journey times with a finer level of control over scheduling.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    54. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by atamido · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It should be trivial to use a small webcam to record video of trips. Then if someone reported damage to the vehicle, you check the video of the past user to see if they caused the damage, and automatically charge their account.

    55. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cencithomas · · Score: 1

      ...wait, what? SFO BART trains absolutely *do* have drivers. I live here and ride it daily.

      --
      ...'tis easier to blame than to improve.
    56. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      Your link shows a total of two serious accidents (in April 20007) since 2000, and none since then. If that's really all there was, then that's a pretty good track record I'd think, given how extensive the NYC subway system is.

    57. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, it's because she has a can of mace.

    58. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trains are boring.

      Buses suck, they're too small and roll/pitch/yaw too much.

      Lightrail/tram and metro/subway are great because of their dynamics, usually fare evasion is simple and at every stop a fresh load of girls pop in.

    59. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can always pass on the cab you get and hope that the next one is cleaner.
      Alternatively, if bad treatment becomes a real problem you might put a button in the cab which reports a "dirty" cab. If that button was abused, a simple identification of the reporter shouldn't be too difficult (you might have a debit/credit card scanner which would send your name with the report, or implement it in any other way).
      That might cause some privacy concerns (big brother watching where you go) in which case you can always just walk, or buy a bike, or use your car.

      So, simply put: this shouldn't have to be a problem.

    60. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by slim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course you can retain your fleet of buses, and only run them at peak times, letting the PRT system handle the road the rest of the time.

    61. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      If making a small simple mistake with your camera killed people and you were using it in densely populated areas, then yes, you would be pathological for liking your fully manual SLR film camera.

      I get that SOME people actually like driving cars frequently. I would say that most people enjoy it at least a few times. That doesn't mean that people should be doing it in densely populated areas. Lots of people like swinging baseball bats, but trying to do it in a crowed is crazy. If you want to swing a baseball bat, you go some place where you are not going to kill someone, and swing away. There are race tracks all over the country that let private individuals drive their personal vehicles on them. On a race track, the only people you are endangering are the people who have decided that the risk is worth the enjoyment of driving.

      That being said, this system has the same fatal flaws that other "replace the car" schemes have.

      1) It is not a personal unit. You can't leave your jacket in the car while you spend the day in 80F weather, and then run out to the car when the night air starts to give you a little chill. You cannot just head down to your local big box store and get a 50" TV, as you won't be able to get it home. In fact, it would force an entire cultural change dictating that you can only bring what you can carry. Good luck with that. It also means that you get to sit in the piss that the last person sprayed all over the vehicle while reading all of the graffiti that is carved into the walls. Think of the most disgusting public bathroom that you have been in, and that is what you will be faced with when you hail one of these automated cabs.

      2) City living is not a good thing for everyone. I know that there are lots of people that like living in super high density cities, but it is simply not good for everyone. I know that I like the fact that my kid can go outside and actually play in something other than hallways and streets. For a "replace the car" system to work, the personal vehicles need to be able to travel everywhere that cars currently publicly travel. In theory every public street in the nation could be replaced to handle these vehicles, and ATV/Golf Carts could be used for the off road uses that might be needed. But the transition time would be a killer.

    62. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I just happen to think that an automated system would have fewer accidents, and at reduced cost with higher throughput. Compare, for instance, Singapore's system where all of the accidents bar one were people on the tracks. The single train collision was caused by a human operator.

      Go back further than 2000, and NYC has had many human-operator caused accidents - some quite serious.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    63. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      The NYC experience would also seem to address the shopping/hauling point you raise. In NYC, everything, including groceries and restaurants, delivers. I don't see any reason in a city where this system is rolled out why we couldn't adopt the same method, even if it is less dense.

      Main problem with rolling it out is that people love to have costs of things hidden from them. It may be difficult to convince people to agree to a 5-10 dollar delivery fee, even though they are saving 100s or 1000s of dollars in maintenance, fuel, and amortization costs of a car.

    64. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Notice though the whole city has to be designed around this concept.

      --

      ----
      Go canucks, habs, and sens!
    65. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I prefer a manual too, but you're nuts if you think flying cars will ever work. Most people are so stupid they can't even drive properly without causing accidents. Private aircraft have accidents all the time, and those are piloted by people who have actually taken a lot of time and money and gotten professional training to fly their planes. Putting flying cars in the hands of the masses would result in destruction on a ridiculous scale. The only way that would ever work is if they were all computer-controlled.

      Besides, while I like driving my manual-transmission car in places like rural areas and on road trips, driving in the city just plain sucks. I'd happily take a automated personal rapid transit vehicle to work every day if that option existed. It has so many advantages: less stress (by not having to worry about all the other idiots running into me), higher speed (no stop lights, no crashes to drive around), less pollution and energy usage, etc. As long as the system works as designed, who cares about control? I can keep my regular car for trips to the mountains.

    66. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      it is funny to think that it is possible to make a taxi with no driver, but a train needs a driver even though it runs on a track.

      The Vancouver Skytrain and the Copenhagen Metro are driverless trains. I haven't been to Vancouver, but in Copenhagen the Metro is quite efficient with lots of trains, also in the nights after thursday-saturday.

    67. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      A better comparison is public toilets. Reasonable amount of privacy, and occupation can be one down to one. They've been pretty much removed from all places, including Paris, because they essentially became cheap brothels and drug stations. With enough glass on the car, privacy could be removed, but it's still more of an issue than generalized public transportation - and people work very hard to keep those clean.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    68. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by snarfies · · Score: 1

      A good thought. Singapore came up with a solution that could apply here.

      For some reason there was a big problem with people in Singapore urinating in elevators. Don't ask me why. It was a big enough problem that they came up with the following solution: They installed detectors that automatically shut elevator doors when a puddle forms on the floor. The doors close and an alarm goes off. The door STAY closed until the police arrive - and if they find urine, you will at very least be fined.

    69. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      I'd guess that in a production system there'd be a method of 'report this pod for inspection' which will take it out of service after a few consecutive reports, or which will automatically take a pod out of service every 24 hours for a quick visual inspection from which the operator can either say 'keep in service' or 'clean'.

      The big benefit is that if there are surplus pods taking a few offline at any time to clean won't have a huge impact, unlike taking an entire 'shuttle' train offline.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    70. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      What about the fact that you get your own private seat. To me that's a win in it's own right. No having to smell the person who didn't shower or listen to the over loud iPod two seats down or the chatty people sitting behind you. You could concentrate on a book or something else without interruptions.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    71. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by powerlord · · Score: 1

      Why do I see some "kids" pulling a prank by throwing water balloons into elevators and running away?

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    72. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your point on the Jacket, I disagree with you on the TV.

      Something like this would be perfect for light cargo transport. Why own an inefficient truck for the two times a year you need to haul something big? Instead the system would have a small number of cargo vehicles that would have all the capacity of a small truck. When you buy a big TV the store would call one to the loading dock, and when you get home you'd find it parked near your house. They could put a nice hand truck or something like that inside which you'd return on deposit by putting it back in the vehicle when you're done hauling it home.

      This kind of system could almost completely replace freight delivery as well. Sure, the largest part of freight would work just as it does today, but the last mile could be serviced by vehicles like PRT. Freight could get so cheap that it would replace most baggage on flights. You could send your bags to your hotel the day before you depart and expect them to be there the next day. You'd just carry personal items on-board most of the time.

      And there are solutions to cleanliness. Cameras would certainly work (perhaps without long-term storage for privacy concerns). People could report a dirty car, and as long as use isn't anonymous it would be difficult to vandalize these things.

      What vandalism that does happen would probably be cheaper to keep up with than maintaining car-based transit systems. Would we have to spend billions on wars in the middle east if we didn't consume so much oil? And think of how much land is covered with parking space!

      A PRT network offers all kinds of possibilities. It essentially turns transportation into a packet-switched network, with all the benefits that entails. Where other forms of transport make sense a PRT could interface with them.

    73. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by molo · · Score: 1

      Try New York City. Its not clean by any stretch. A good amount of it is due to homeless people.

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    74. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, I want to trade my all-leather cow interior for a stainless steel seat and an open drain.

    75. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ForrestFire439 · · Score: 1

      But how does "liking" something compare to killing tens of thousands of people each year [dot.gov], causing massive destruction of ecosystems, causing other vast climactic changes, draining natural resources, and destroying watersheds (with pavement)?

      Death is part of life. The way I see it you can live a sheltered little life and possibly squeeze out a little bit more time on earth but you're not really living life to its fullest. I enjoy driving. I feel as though I'm an exceptional driver and I feel safer when I'm in control. I don't like being coddled by automagic systems. I'm not alone either. Pilots, for instance, use auto-pilot for the more monotonous parts of flying but when it comes to the real trick part - landing - they go manual. When you go out on the road you accept the risks involved. Hell, build the system for people who don't want to drive and for places where its too congested. But me, I'll be driving.

      Some people are more promiscuous than others. That's their right. It's really none of my business.

      As for the other other concerns, they can be addressed through alternative energy systems. There's nothing inherently more eco-friendly in riding a rail than driving on a road.

      No, I don't think every decision a person makes should be measured by what's in the "public interest."

      --
      "Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure." --Robert Heinlien
    76. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Main problem with rolling it out is that people love to have costs of things hidden from them. It may be difficult to convince people to agree to a 5-10 dollar delivery fee, even though they are saving 100s or 1000s of dollars in maintenance, fuel, and amortization costs of a car."

      Well, back again to my example of grocery shopping.

      The delivery thing wouldn't work for me....as that "I" like to be able to physically look over the quality of produce, get the best I can get, and also with things like meat, etc...I look for the best cuts with good marbling, etc.

      I wouldn't trust some store worker to take the time and consideration picking my stuff out, at least the fresh stuff, and that's what I buy mostly. I cook from scratch, none of thie pre-made stuff for me...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    77. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      In NY, you can go to the store, pick out the stuff you want, and that's the stuff they deliver.

      Or you can do like you suggested, and have the store people pick it out for you so you don't have to go.

    78. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "But how does "liking" something compare to killing tens of thousands of people each year [dot.gov], causing massive destruction of ecosystems, causing other vast climactic changes, draining natural resources, and destroying watersheds (with pavement)?

      Is a little enjoyment really worth all that? "

      In one word, yes.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    79. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ForrestFire439 · · Score: 1

      If making a small simple mistake with your camera killed people and you were using it in densely populated areas, then yes, you would be pathological for liking your fully manual SLR film camera.

      Driving an automatic is no safer than driving a manual. I'd say it's the opposite. When you drive a manual you get the sense that you're really *operating* the car. You tend to focus more. That's how I am anyway. I already mentioned that mass transit makes sense in areas that are already too congested (ie big cities). Would flying cars ever really work on a large scale? I don't know.

      --
      "Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure." --Robert Heinlien
    80. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

      It is also worth noticing that current urban investments in car infrastructures are staggering. Not that it wouldn't be a major undertaking to convert to personal transit... but considering how many billions are currently poured into automobiles, it may be cost-effective.

    81. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Vienna is one of the few city's that has this bit right. The underground runs till 12:30 and then a bunch of extra night buses start running. I get 24/7 transport from anywhere to anywhere within city limits. They are now trying to get the waiting time down to 5min or something for the main areas for the night buses.

      But last time i was in London, and i tried to go home after a party at 2am... Dam the taxis are bad... Cost me more than the beer and food for the night!!

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    82. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

      Not BART, Airtrain:

      http://www.flysfo.com/web/page/atsfo/airtrain/map/

      Some way up the thread someone said "trains at SFO and SeaTac", which I presume implied airports.

    83. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      You could always join a racetrack... Its more fun that not being able to drink at parties too.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    84. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yes, except that there was a "discussion" with the train drivers' unions when they brought that in to operation, with the result that there's no driver, but there is a union DLR employee manually operating the automatic doors for "safety".

    85. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      I haven't noticed a problem in New York, though I confess I've only been there a few weeks in total. I suspect these incidents are few and far between.

    86. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you're clever about light rail system you'd run both PRTs and regular bus-style tram cars. On peak demand hours, you'd make riding the PRTs more expensive. This way you can keep demand up for tram-style cars which are more cost effective when fully used. But during off-peak hours, sideline all the trams and run nothing but PRTs at tram car pricing.

      Also a good design incorporating PRTs + trams should have a dual sideages setup. That way a backlog of either at any of the stations wont tie up the works, and things should keep flowing well on the main line.

    87. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by glittalogik · · Score: 1

      Speaking as a Sydney commuter, I wish the lathering and rinsing was repeated a bit more often. Sweat and weird rubber smells have their place, but a train ain't it.

    88. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Quikah · · Score: 1

      Bah, trains at SFO don't doo a very good job if you are trying to go to the southbay.

      --
      Q.
    89. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Is there any reason one couldn't have it called to your front door? That seems to be most people's (other than you Sir Toe, The) sticking point. Instead of buying a $18k+ car you buy ~$1k controller.

      There is the problem of changing to this type of transport; no one wants to be first as it won't go everywhere.

      I don't understand why it can't be coupled with the light post and reflectors we have around our streets now. Each device gets its own number, (encrypted, ipv6 perhaps?) which is held correlates to a central map server. Pranksters could change the poles/reflectors/posts around, but they would have to change every one for x distance to fool the vehicle. New developments and upgrades give preference to these systems till you need to have an exception to drive on the public roads without a computerised driver. (I'm thinking delivery vehicles, emergency services.)

      Damn it Rudd! Spend our investments on this! not on painting schools!

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    90. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      The auto-photo system that Australian (Qld?) taxi's have would work for this. Basically all angles including approach of doors of the vehicle are covered and snapped every 3-5 seconds. Nothing reported, no one sees the video. Holds 48 hours of data (easy enough to get more), unless there is a report/emergency button push activated. Then it is stored for up to 5 days.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    91. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ctrahey · · Score: 1

      Yes, but count tonnage per passenger and I think you'll find the cars are a lot worse for efficiency, so the accelerating and stopping per passenger is a lot worse for the personal vehicles.

      So, we should look for something that weighs about as much as a bicycle?

      These are convenient only for places they go, as well.

      So, we should look for something as nimble as a pedestrian?

      the only thing they have going for them is being electric instead of fuel

      The only thing better would be if it used some energy source that was already in use all around, maybe it could even tap into the extra calories Americans consume everyday and help us keep healthy? And, as long as we're dreaming, it should cost $0.00 for infrastructure. Damn, if only such a solution was realistic. Anyway, I gotta go, I've been looking forward to my bike ride home all day. Maybe on my way I can try to solve this dilemma.

    92. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Subways are cleaned every 24 hours (at least they are in my town).
      Why would these be any different?

    93. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      That's what they do here, where I like. I see a huge buss with maybe four people riding. Then it stops in a traffic lane and backs up traffic foor blocks as one person gets off at the stop. Then not only the bus but 25 cars in back of it all have to speed up again.

      Busses have to be sized for the maximum load but the agverage load must be much smaller so much of the time they are a waste

    94. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is how cars will eventually be replaced.

      No. Cars will evolve into PRT systems. What is lacking is automated drivers. Once a car can drive itself you can do many great things like have then hook up into trains or one car can tell other cars that it needs to change lans and the others move out of the way.

      Little by little cars will gain "smarts" at first with automatic braking then steering controls to follow a lane and so one until maybe 50 years they no longr need a driver at all -- great for kids and old people.... and drunks

    95. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you change the number of train cars being hauled at a given hour to better match the ridership, thus eliminating a lot of wasted energy of empty or half-filled cars?

    96. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by BinaryPower · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think our transit system has more to do with government funding than consumer likes/dislikes. Can you imagine what would happen if we didn't have government roads? There would probably be a natural push for mass transit systems like these PRT systems (although, they are probably also government projects), as these seem to be more efficient.

      --
      Patience is a virtue. Acquire it as fast as you can.
    97. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck, lots of guys enjoy having sex with lots of varied women every day. But something prevents them from grabbing the nearest hottie and having their way with her. I think it has something to do with... social responsibility.

      I think it has something to do with... there being no hotties hanging-out inside your average slashdotter's grandmother's basement.

      There. Fixed that for you.

    98. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      There are quite a few car sharing or car pool systems which work. All of them have solved this problem.

      I cannot see why this could not.

    99. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I want a driver who can stop a train if there's damage ahead or a cow lying on the tracks.

      Never hear of a cow catcher? Besides, a cow isn't going to do any serious damage to a train anyhow. Oh, and where are you that you'd have cows lying on the tracks of a commuter train anyway?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    100. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by mfnickster · · Score: 1

      > Trains don't need drivers. Trains are functionally equivalent to horizontal elevators.

      Now you're talking. I want a crosstown elevator system!

      --
      "Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
    101. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Splintax · · Score: 1

      I feel as though I'm an exceptional driver and I feel safer when I'm in control.

      Most people think this, regardless of how good they are at driving. However, even if you are an 'exceptionally' good driver, there's only so much you can do to protect yourself from other people's shitty driving. And of course, everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

      It'll take a long time for people to give up driving, but I think eventually we'll have cars that can drive themselves more safely than humans can. Once those cars are standard, it won't be too long before you're not allowed to drive on public roads - if you still want to drive for pleasure, take it to a track.

    102. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you find the pod unclean, hit the "clean" button and it will rush off to the closest cleaning station. You then get on the next one. Simple.

    103. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      The next step is separate carriages like this only mag-lev and running in near vacuum. LA to New York in 2 hours. "Trains" were efficient only because the first car broke the wind for the rest of the train. But in near vacuum, you don't need trains, so you can hang on to all the advantages the article's system describes, only for continent spanning travel, eliminating a huge portion of air travel and all it's environmental costs.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    104. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by Heddahenrik · · Score: 1

      You don't need any flywheel. If the system is connected to the main power grid, there will be no problems even if there is the unlikely event that the system should generate more energy than it produces for a while.

    105. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by dugeen · · Score: 1

      True, after all I used to enjoy smoking but that didn't mean it was beneficial to me, or anyone else in the same room, in the long term.

    106. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1
    107. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by master811 · · Score: 1

      You do realise right that London has night buses as well?

    108. Re:What is really wrong with trains? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you could - but they would still waste a lot of energy starting and stopping at every station unnecessarily. Even a bus is so inefficient off-peak that it completely wipes out the efficiencies during peak hours, even in a heavily-used system like New York's. I've been completely alone on a double-car bus on numerous occasions.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  3. In my day, we called these cars by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Troll

    You want to talk about automatically-piloted vehicles. Shit. This morning I was driving through the downtown area and this Chevy Blazer comes flying around a corner, tires squealing and horn honking. I take a look and (obviously) it was a woman driving. Or should I say "sitting at the wheel", because her hands certainly weren't on the wheel.

    Now, I'm the first one to argue that you don't need both hands on the wheel at the same time, but at least you need to have one hand on it to consider yourself driving! Jabba the Hutt in the Blazer was putting on makeup and eating a Ho Ho while careening around 2nd Ave at 30mph with no hands on the wheel. I can only assume she was navigating with her belly, because that's the only thing that could possibly have been touching the steering wheel at the moment.

    You want to credit Heathrow and freaking Arabs with driver-less cars? How about the United fucking States of goddamned America? We've been pioneering this shit since London's been overrun by Asians.

    1. Re:In my day, we called these cars by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      Wow, you've really got a knack for bad analogies. First the coffee-heat-and-laptop remark, now this. Great choice picking out a username.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    2. Re:In my day, we called these cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      his username is like a car

    3. Re:In my day, we called these cars by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      ...comes flying around a corner, tires squealing and horn honking

      ...putting on makeup and eating a Ho Ho while careening around 2nd Ave at 30mph with no hands on the wheel

      Consistency check..................fail

  4. "Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Zondar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm assuming the system is electric, but it could only meet the "no CO2" if the electric power is nuclear, hydro, solar, etc... If it's traditional electric power, it's just moving the source of the CO2 and perhaps the efficiency.

    1. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moreover, what about manufacturing emissions?

    2. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming the system is electric, but it could only meet the "no CO2" if the electric power is nuclear, hydro, solar, etc... If it's traditional electric power, it's just moving the source of the CO2 and perhaps the efficiency.

      Note the wind turbines in the background of the video.

    3. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by nametaken · · Score: 1

      The video makes it look like it's solar.

    4. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Rolgar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why does that have to be a downfall of this system? The people that build the transportation don't have any power over what the city or power utility has decided to use for electricity any more than you or I, so it's out of their control. Is it the fault of somebody that lives in an apartment that the apartment has electricity from a coal plant instead of a wind farm since solar and wind are probably not feasible on site?

      This is a better option, because of efficiency, than other options, with a chance to being upgraded to renewable sources when it is feasible. Many places in the US already are moving toward more renewable sources, but do you expect even them to all scrap any investment they'd already made in carbon based electricity before renewables became viable options?

      Do what works but campaign for improvement in the next upgrade.

    5. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i think the gist is that being electric, the vehicles are therefore power-source agnostic, in terms of it being easy to get the power from renewable sources. You can just change the input and the output is fixed. With gasoline powered cars, thats not the case.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    6. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by slackoon · · Score: 0

      For your information, based on TFA, the zero carbon emission is for the WHOLE city. There will be come components of the city that emit / produce carbon and others that absorb it. The idea is an OVERALL zero emission.

    7. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      It will be powered by 30,000 guest workers from India an treadmills, and thus will be truly "no CO2"... well, except for the C02 that the guest workers themselves emit, but we're working no that.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    8. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by 0123456 · · Score: 0, Troll

      "Note the wind turbines in the background of the video."

      Brilliant; a transport system that only works on windy days.

      Why not just stick a sail on top of your car and cut out the middleman?

    9. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it would be moving the source of the CO2.

      But I'd think that a central power plant would be far more efficient (>90% ?) than many individual car engines (18-35% ?)

      Next to that, filtering CO2 in a single location instead of in millions of cars sounds way more practical.

    10. Re:"Designed to emit no carbon dioxide"? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Your idea is correct, but your numbers aren't. Individual car engines are probably in the 5-15% range, while fossil-fuel power plants are probably in the 35% range. Nothing based on a thermal cycle can exceed 40% efficiency by Carnot's Law.

      And yes, fossil-fuel power plants are far less polluting than millions of variably-maintained car engines.

  5. Heathrow by lelitsch · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh the delicious irony of using "Heathrow" and "rapid transit" in the same sentence.

    1. Re:Heathrow by drsquare · · Score: 4, Funny

      You'd be surprised how rapidly your baggage ends up 5,000 miles away from your destination.

    2. Re:Heathrow by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I tried to move quickly at Heathrow, but there were all these stupid NIMBY protesters in my way, slowing things down.

      Yes, Boris, I'd love to build an airport in the Thames estuary, I'd also like a gold plated toilet seat, but it's just not on the cards now, is it?

    3. Re:Heathrow by slim · · Score: 1

      Ah, it's funny because the Terminal 5 launch was a fiasco.

      But I've travelled from Terminal 5 since then. The system for collecting your belongings from the X-ray was poorly designed, but other than that things couldn't have been smoother.

  6. Very popular in Dubai by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

    It appears people abandoning their cars to use this new system! http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/09/dubai-airport-clogge.html

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    1. Re:Very popular in Dubai by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      It looks like the designers just watched "The Incredibles"

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    2. Re:Very popular in Dubai by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, other way around. This design existed before "The Incredibles".

    3. Re:Very popular in Dubai by eXFeLoN · · Score: 0

      I'll see your article and raise you this one... http://www.gulfnews.com/nation/Police_and_The_Courts/10282898.html

      --
      My other sig is a knife wound.
    4. Re:Very popular in Dubai by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      Thanks. The truth probably lies somewhere in between, and likely closer to the article you linked. I was doubtful about the large numbers of cars being abandoned. If for no reason than the owners would at least sell them very cheap to friends who were staying. But I had just finished reading the article I linked to and the combination seemed amusing.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  7. Good idea, but... by Reason58 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems as if something like this would attract vagrants, significant vandalism and just plain disgustingness. Would be pretty cool though if major cities were only filled with people like the scientists and engineers would designed it.

    1. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coming in Q4 2009 ... a site devoted entirely to porn movies shot in the PRT pods.

    2. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the added benefit of not being able to switch seats when someone has pissed in it, or worse.

    3. Re:Good idea, but... by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      I really wonder where this bizarre notion comes from. Do people piss in the corners of light rail cars? No. Is there always a conductor in light rail trains? No. So there can easily be a lone unattended passenger. Yet it doesn't happen with any significant frequency. Why would it be more frequent in a PRT pod that's so small you get your feet wet if you try it?

      It will be easy for anybody deploying a PRT system to keep it clean and safe and unvandalized. Even in the piggy US of A. All it takes is transit cops on platforms. Lots of them. Come down on violaters like a ton of bricks, ALWAYS, and word will quickly spread that it doesn't pay to screw with the PRT in a city. Have uniformed personnel visible on random platforms throughout the night. Keep a flying squad at a base somewhere. It's really easy to get them to a trouble spot: put them on your PRT and send them to the destination, with priority in the system. Get in REALLY good with the local cops and prosecutors. Use some of the system revenue to pay special assessments to the city, earmarked for security. Convince the city to assign actual city cops to keep an eye on things. And put cameras at every platform (which most people would think of doing without even blinking, in today's world). I'm an engineer, not a sociologist, and I can come up with this stuff.

      In short, there's a simple, human solution to the apparent simple human desire to be a slobby vandal. Get over it.

    4. Re:Good idea, but... by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It seems as if something like this would attract vagrants, significant vandalism and just plain disgustingness. Would be pretty cool though if major cities were only filled with people like the scientists and engineers would designed it.

      I don't know the particulars of this system but I can make a couple of assumptions on how this can be handled.

      1. You pay for your trip via credit card.
      2. A vehicle arrives for your use. If it is unsanitary, you press a button and it routes back to maintenance for cleaning.
      3. Any vehicle flagged for maintenance will have its passenger log reviewed. Any passenger racks up 3 sanitary flaggings by passengers using the vehicle after him will be banned from the service for a month.

      I'm less enthusiastic about putting video cameras in the cab to directly record vandalism, it could just as easily be abused as any other reasonable control people think of, but I think the flagging system should be relatively abuse-resistant. And I'd feel very pleased to see punks suffering the consequences of their actions. I for one am sick of going into a nice business and seeing the restrooms vandalized by stupid rich white kids who think they're ghetto because they listen to M&M.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    5. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems as if something like this would attract vagrants, significant vandalism and just plain disgustingness.

      So choose the pod that doesn't have the vagrant in it.

      More seriously, though, while vandalism might be worse, risk of minor crime and disease could be lower depending how the system was designed. When you're on a bus or subway, you have little control over whether someone sits next to you and sneezes a bunch of virus particles into your face or whether some street gang types start making lewd comments or worse.

      It all depends on how the system is designed. A well designed system could eliminate the key drawback to public transportation (having to deal with the other passengers).

    6. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you wrote doesn't sound simple or easy at all.

      It sounds like some sort of fantasy movie involving numerous large committees that work together efficiently towards a common goal. BWAHaHahaha

    7. Re:Good idea, but... by lagfest · · Score: 2, Informative

      Considering that it is built in the UK, I'd be surprised if every cab didn't have a surveillance camera.

    8. Re:Good idea, but... by characterZer0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bonus: You get to track exactly where everybody goes.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    9. Re:Good idea, but... by ubercam · · Score: 1

      Seems that you aren't ghetto enough.

      It's Eminem, not M&M. That said, I'm not a fan of that clown either. No offense to clowns...

    10. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so how do you deal with people calling a pod, de-sanitizing it using their method of choice, and then sending it back, just to mess with the person who had it last?

    11. Re:Good idea, but... by lelitsch · · Score: 1

      Apart from the abysmal track record of the BAA, here are a number of reasons why it won't work.

      -Demand at airports is not smooth. Imagine two 747 and one 380 arriving simultaneously. There is no way to get 1200 passengers smoothly into individual pods. And if you want them to use credit cards, walking out a fire door, getting arrested by airport police, 3 hours of interrogation and getting taken to your departure gate in handcuffs will get you on your next plane faster. For added hilarity, add a few wheelchairs to the mix.

      -Ripple effects...if any of the pods breaks down, traffic stops. Even if they had the same MTBF as trains, the system will break 500 times more often. By the way, trains are a well understood technology after 150 years, this isn't.

      -Goofing off. It doesn't have to be vandalism, but will the pods work with 25 college students packed into one?

    12. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a wonderful idea! Let's burn and kill ever non smart guy out there (and rape their wifes!) and live in a scientist city without stupid morons to ruin our lifes!

    13. Re:Good idea, but... by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      > would attract vagrants, significant vandalism and just plain disgustingness

      Yes, like all public transport does. But that's a social problem, not a transportation/energy one...

    14. Re:Good idea, but... by Ragzouken · · Score: 2, Informative

      The pattern would point to the desanitizer, not the random victims.

    15. Re:Good idea, but... by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Won't happen much if you chop left foot and right hand of the offender (prescribed Islamic punishment)

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    16. Re:Good idea, but... by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      Besides which, if this is supposed to be some type of a replacement for a lot of car flow, then it'd be a simple matter of reallocating the police and resources that were dedicated to patrolling the streets to patrolling the mass transit.

    17. Re:Good idea, but... by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      Variable demand, with 1200 passengers arriving at once at the airport, and each needing their own personal vehicle. This sounds like a problem that has already been well-characterized and solved in the past. It's called a parking lot. Only this one would be more efficient, because you could practice flow control to avoid so much duplicated functionality in the form of there being more cars than the system's maximum flow rate/capacity.

      Ripple effects, where one breaking down is a PITA. Yes, if one breaks down, traffic stops. I believe this is also something of an understood problem, I deal with it on my morning commute every day on the highway. Sucks, life isn't perfect. If anything, I imagine this is much easier, since if a pod breaks down, you simply have a provision for it where it's pulled off the track and the passenger stuffed in the next available pod, with the broken pod to be dealt with at leisure. Remember, there's no reason there should only be a single track between any two given places, the same reason there isn't only one lane on the road.

      Goofing off: Sounds like any other type of vandalism to me. If they intentionally create problems for the system, make part of the system penalizing people who do so.

    18. Re:Good idea, but... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter. If the social problem is ignored, then enough people simply won't use public transit, and it will fail, or be condemned to decades of being propped up by government subsidies and low ridership while problems caused by cars continue to increase.

    19. Re:Good idea, but... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I for one am sick of going into a nice business and seeing the restrooms vandalized by stupid rich white kids who think they're ghetto because they listen to M&M.

      You must be the oldest, grumpiest, whitest guy around. It's spelled Eminem.

    20. Re:Good idea, but... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Actually, if one breaks down the only people stuck would be those who don't have a route back onto the grid (such as if the line ends in a dead-end and they're on the wrong side of it).

      If the broken car is in the middle of a grid somewhere everybody else can route around it. Cars adjacent to it will just reverse back onto the grid (going the wrong way on a track isn't an issue if computers are running the show and direct traffic accordingly).

      Yes, a breakdown could make parts of the system inaccessible. However, it wouldn't bring the whole thing down. If routes had multiple tracks it might be handled very smoothly.

      You could also have tow-cars of some kind that would be auto-dispatched to get the stuck passengers to a terminal and a new car very efficiently. It would be far less inconvenient than a car breakdown (where you're not only waiting for a tow to inch through the jam you just caused, but you then have to actually deal with your car). The broken car could systematically end up in a repair yard with no human involvement at all.

    21. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, I could hear the *whoosh* from way over here...

    22. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm less concerned about what might happen on the bus than what might happen while waiting for it.

    23. Re:Good idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good old M&M, how I love their music. It's so sugary and sweet. Much nicer than the music by that rapper Eminem.

    24. Re:Good idea, but... by syousef · · Score: 1

      2. A vehicle arrives for your use. If it is unsanitary, you press a button and it routes back to maintenance for cleaning.

      3. Change of government means the system is no longer maintained

      4. After flagging down your fifth vehicle and finding it's the fifth one in a row that's unsanitary, you give up and catch the bus.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    25. Re:Good idea, but... by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      Commenting just on vandalism in restrooms -

      I agree it is ridiculous how much exists. However, if you look at it, it's actually kind of interesting. If I'm utilizing a public stall I make it a point to read most of what's written (there is just about always stuff written unless it was just cleaned/repainted) and it's kind of a fun hobby.

      I'm assuming it's less of a problem in offices and places like that where people have "real jobs", but as an undergraduate previously at one school and now a master's student at another, I have found that university bathrooms are among the most interesting. These are the bathrooms I, and obviously a lot of other people, spend a lot of time in while "working", but are still for the most part public (unlike at an office building.)

      As there are very few public restrooms without graffiti, even at upscale businesses, one might as well take some enjoyment out of it. Marvel at the idiocy of the people who write it (it's really quite astounding sometimes), wonder if anyone really comes at 10:30 on Monday and taps their foot for a blow job, and - best of all - be amazed by the 1 out of 1000 piece of graffiti that is clever and makes you laugh.

      Now, the funniest (though not surprising) part - you mention any of this to a female, and they will have no idea what you're talking about. Apparently there is little to no graffiti in even the most public of the public women's restrooms!

    26. Re:Good idea, but... by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      If you don't think this is already happening, you're mad.

      Currently all the major city rail stations I've visited in the UK either have upgraded or are planning to upgrade to magstripe ticket gates (with RFID readers already in place for the next ticket version). Buying a season ticket requires a photocard, which requires ID including your address. It would be a fair assumption that the tickets have a unique serial number.

      Most of the current generation of trains have onboard CCTV, and specifically placed facecams at the doors. The stations have camera saturation, will many units aimed at face height.

      Presently, they don't catch people who buy day tickets with cash, but there are still many correlations you can apply to the data.

    27. Re:Good idea, but... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You've also banned a whole lot of people from using the system. Lots of people don't have credit cards, for various reasons. Some are young (although old enough to use public transportation), and don't have steady incomes. Some have bad credit. Some have found they can't trust themselves carrying a credit card, but are otherwise good citizens. I knew one woman who considered credit cards immoral (and later became a nun).

      Not to mention the potential problems with identity theft. If somebody steals my credit card, they can easily lock my out of the transit system for a month. Sure, I can appeal, but that's going to take a week to resolve, even at ludicrous speed for a bureaucracy. (I can dispute unauthorized charges, and not pay the bill, so if they buy stuff with my card I'm only slightly inconvenienced. If I need to drive and pay for parking for a week or a month, I'm seriously inconvenienced.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  8. where's mr. pointy? by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Funny

    So an entire community that emits no carbon dioxide. What are the inhabitants, vampires? Zombies? Undead "not otherwise specified"? This "green movement" is getting out of control when we turn to the dark powers.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:where's mr. pointy? by dkf · · Score: 1

      So an entire community that emits no carbon dioxide. What are the inhabitants, vampires? Zombies? Undead "not otherwise specified"? This "green movement" is getting out of control when we turn to the dark powers.

      Can't be zombies. You'd get methane off them as they decompose and that converts fairly rapidly to CO2.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    2. Re:where's mr. pointy? by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      So an entire community that emits no carbon dioxide. What are the inhabitants, vampires? Zombies? Undead "not otherwise specified"? This "green movement" is getting out of control when we turn to the dark powers.

      Undead critters emit carbon dioxide as they rot. No green here, just greyish/purplish.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    3. Re:where's mr. pointy? by EZLeeAmused · · Score: 1

      You mean werewolves:
      one at Heathrow International Airport, near London,
      and mummies:
      and one in the United Arab Emirates

      --
      Some see the vessel as half full; others see it as half-empty; We pour it out on the floor and laugh
    4. Re:where's mr. pointy? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Skeletons don't, their flesh has already decayed off.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:where's mr. pointy? by MaxwellEdison · · Score: 1

      I saw a PRT drinkin' a pina colada at Trader Vic's...Its paint was perfect.

      --
      -=Bang Bang=-
  9. I wonder in 20 years... by Ian_Bailey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder in 20 years how these "networks" will compare to the Morgantown PRT.

    1. Re:I wonder in 20 years... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, the Morgantown system is nothing more than a light rail system with extremely small vehicles.

      It's also extremely small, compared to what's being attempted.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:I wonder in 20 years... by AndrewNeo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article (yes, I actually read it) actually compares the system to Morgantown's and why it should work better.

    3. Re:I wonder in 20 years... by eheldreth · · Score: 1

      It's not just a light rail system. The Morgantown PRT system runs in two modes. The first used on nights and low volume weekends (Read no football games) is basically a light rail system like you said. The second mode used during the week and other peak times is truly a PRT. Cars are dispatched as needed and go directly to the destination station. I believe it cost $.50. I will grant the tech is outdated and this version will most likely be superior but give credit where it's due. WV has very few things we've been ahead of the curve on. At least things that didn't involve bare foot pregnant teens who drink too much or combustible living room furniture.

      --
      The perversity of the Universe tends towards a maximum. - O'Toole's Corollary
  10. What's the Point? by lobiusmoop · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Individual transport within an airport - an environment designed round mass transport?

    The Heathrow video claims '50% lower carbon emissions than buses or trains' - is that per passenger though? In a busy airport like Heathrow regular trains would be more efficient than individual transporters surely.

    --
    "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    1. Re:What's the Point? by JustinOpinion · · Score: 1

      In a busy airport like Heathrow regular trains would be more efficient than individual transporters surely.

      Are you sure? Airports are often busy, to be sure, and there are lots of times where the intra-airport trains are packed full. But there are also times when those same trains are relatively empty (but still have to run). It is not fuel-efficient to move an entire train car for one or two people.

      So maybe it actually is more energy-efficient, averaged over a year of typical usage, to use small 1-4 person vehicles rather than larger vehicles designed to move 15-50 people at a time.

      Without doing a relatively detailed calculation, I can't say which one would actually be better. My only point is that it's not obvious (to me at least) which one would be more efficient.

    2. Re:What's the Point? by slim · · Score: 1

      This seems to be for replacing the shuttle buses that take you from the car park to the terminal. The stops are sprawled out too widely to make a train service work.

      My experience of these buses is that you wait a long time for one, yet when it comes it's nowhere near at capacity. Then they have to take a suboptimal route, in order to pass a load of other stops, most of which have nobody waiting.

      It does seem to me that from a customer satisfaction perspective, and an efficiency perspective, reducing the MTU in this way is an improvement.

      The only thing that bothers me is what happens if a unit breaks down and blocks the track. Hopefully someone's thought that through...

  11. Just to clarify by slackoon · · Score: 0

    Go to: http://www.masdaruae.com/en/Menu/index.aspx?MenuID=69&CatID=38&mnu=Cat It says that they are CONSIDERING using the PRT system. They are also considering Light Rail (LRT) or a combination of both. No matter what form of transportation is sounds like a leap inot the future!

  12. bass ackwords by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1
    From TFA:

    [Personal Rapid Transit] systems are supposed to combine the convenience and privacy of automobiles with the environmental benefits of mass transit.

    I was under the impression these things never caught on was because they did the opposite of the above claim: they combine the environmental detriments of personal automobile use with the inconvenience and delay of mass transit.

    The reason I say this is that if you have to build one car per person and maintain the cars and the system for the cars, that's a huge environmental impact. Even if the cars are "green" and run on lead-acid batteries, there's still a lot of resources that go into building them and you lose all the energy efficiency of moving large numbers of people at one time. For inconvenience of mass transit, having your own personal automobile is convenient, if wasteful. You can take it anywhere you like at any time you like and can maintain it as much as you wish, with a public transit system that you must give up, but in sharing your transit device, you are consuming less resources per capita.

    --
    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    1. Re:bass ackwords by JustinOpinion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason I say this is that if you have to build one car per person and maintain the cars and the system for the cars, that's a huge environmental impact.

      But in a shared-car system you don't need one car per person: you just need as many cars as are required at peak usage. For any given hour of the day, many cars are actually just sitting parked.

      With fewer cars in total, it becomes more practical for those cars to be well-maintained, energy-efficient, and so on. (Convincing everyone to buy new energy-efficient cars is impossible. Migrating a communal fleet of vehicles to a new greener technology is more practical.) And if well-managed, there is no reason that such a fleet could not be just as convenient (in terms of getting a car as soon as you need one) as owning a car. (In fact there may be added conveniences like not having to worry about parking.)

      In a sense it's not too different from mass-usage of taxis (as seems to happen quite a bit in New York City, for instance), of rental vehicles, or car-share services (e.g. zipcar).

      (That's the theory, at least. I'm well-aware of the practical problems of any such system, such as people not keeping the communal vehicles clean, the dangers and inefficiencies of the added bureaucracy, being reliant on someone else's (mis)management, etc.)

    2. Re:bass ackwords by cliffski · · Score: 1

      the real killer is that my government taxes me for just OWNING a car. As a result, I feel almost obligated to get my moneys worth and sue the fucking thing all the time.
      Any system that puts fixed costs of ownership on polluting vehicles is mental. it should be all about the marginal costs, that way people would think before using them. Where I live in the UK, not owning a car is a nightmare, so once you've swallowed the up front cost, you use it all the time.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    3. Re:bass ackwords by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Even if the cars are "green" and run on lead-acid batteries, there's still a lot of resources that go into building them and you lose all the energy efficiency of moving large numbers of people at one time.

      In this case, they're even "greener" than that. They run on electrified tracks, not batteries, so there aren't substantial amounts of lead involved and there are no losses going to and from chemical electrical energy storage. In addition, all stations have bypasses and all vehicles are computer controlled. That means there's zero stop-and-go traffic, which drastically improves efficiency. In cities, an enormous amount of the energy involved in automobile transportation is used up in the task of repeatedly accelerating from a dead stop. Hence the different in fuel efficiency between highway and city driving. As for delays, PRT systems with vehicles designed for occupancies of 4 passengers or less have average wait times for boarding of less than a second. Most of the time there's a vehicle waiting. Since it's electric, it incurs zero energy usage and zero maintenance (no extra hours on an operating engine) while sitting and waiting.

      The only inconvenience is when the system doesn't go where you want to go. That's a downside of every non-automobile system today, but I think it's much less of an issue than people think. I wouldn't have the least problem if a PRT system ran down the main access road of my subdivision. The vehicles are electric, so they'd be quieter than half of the vehicles that currently use that road. Nearly every serious design puts them above grade, so there are no safety issues with pets and children, and no delays from anything being on the guideway. Having stops in the commercial districts I want to go to is a no-brainer. If a system is being seriously deployed, the local movie theater would demand to be included in the network. Likewise the local grocery and the local Home Depot. There are a lot of upsides and relatively few downsides compared to every other attempt to replace the automobile. Small footprint because they're elevated (unlike light rail and the sunk cost of the roads taxis use), quiet (unlike buses and light rail), no waiting (unlike buses, taxis, light rail), rarely having to share a pod unless I want to (unlike buses and light rail), and no human driver, so they're cheaper to operate (unlike buses, taxis, light rail).

      I'd definitely ride one if one was built in my area, if only to be able to sit back and relax and put my feet up and not have to deal with my stinking commute every day. Just sit and ride. Sounds nice...

    4. Re:bass ackwords by maxume · · Score: 1

      That typo is awesome and I am now considering litigation against several of my possessions.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  13. Naming the individual vehicles... by AioKits · · Score: 1

    I propose we call them Super Hurried Individual Transports.

    --
    "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    1. Re:Naming the individual vehicles... by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

      Quick, someone legislate this. We need to get this S.H.I.T. on the road right away!

  14. Wild Guess by FireStormZ · · Score: 1

    Because I did not RTFA I have to guess the power (at least in Saudi Arabia) is coming from burning oil...

    --
    "Ahh! Arrogance and stupidity in the same package, how efficient of you!" --Londo Molari
  15. The UAE? by absurdist · · Score: 1

    I've been to the UAE. The problem there is that even though they hire the best engineers in the world, the laborers building these projects typically had never seen the business end of a hammer six months before being hired.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  16. Hardly new by Hans+Lehmann · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Morgantown, WV, has had something similar for the past 30+ years.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  17. Designed by Disney? by shogarth · · Score: 1

    This looks like the old Disneyland PeopleMover to me just with the cars separated. Hopefully the PRT will be a bit more reliable...

  18. interesting concept by jollyreaper · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm still a big fan of skytran. I don't know if the political and financial support is there but the economics seem reasonable and I think it's certainly an engineering possibility, not relying on unobtanium or anything wild.

    The link to the website goes into far greater detail but the nickel synopsis is this:

    1. Two passenger monorail cars using a computerized rail system to rapidly route passengers to destinations, avoiding the stop and start of traditional subway and light rail. (Monorail, yes monorail! Your simspon reference is weak, shut up.)
    2. Cars, rails and towers are designed to be light so the footprint on the ground is about the same as a telephone pole.
    3. With all the rails in the air, real estate on the ground can be used for pretty much anything, avoiding the disruptive problems and huge expense of running traditional light rail lines.
    4. Because the lines are cheaper, a grid can be laid over a sprawling metropolitan area lacking the high population densities required to make traditional mass transit viable.
    5. The goal is to have stops spread about everywhere so that where you want to go should be no more than a 15 minute walk after arrival. Current mass transit can leave you with miles to go to your destination.
    6. Since the cars are electric and make no more than a whooshing line when going overhead, they would not be as disruptive as a conventional light rail train or a city bus.

    The goal with skytran is not to replace cars but to take commuters off the road. Anyone as a single occupant in a car going places could be in one of these and free up the roads for people whose trips cannot be accomplished via skytran.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTran

    Of course, the real problem we're looking at here is that zero thought has been put into sustainable urban planning. We tend to ad hoc and half-ass everything together and end up with designs that are simply unworkable. But hey, that's the human way. Maybe the energy crunch can force a reevaluation of that.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:interesting concept by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      With all the rails in the air, real estate on the ground can be used for pretty much anything

      Can be, but would it? Almost all of the passenger rail service in Manhattan was moved underground in the first half of the 20th century because of the effects the elevated train lines were having on the communities below them: the avenues were constantly dark, dirty, noisy, and unpleasant. If you've ever been under the remaining elevated lines in the outer boroughs, or in Chicago, or under Seattle's monorail, you'll understand how elevating the transit system may solve some of the problems of building at grade, but also introduces many new problems of its own.

    2. Re:interesting concept by jiteo · · Score: 1

      5. The goal is to have stops spread about everywhere so that where you want to go should be no more than a 15 minute walk after arrival. Current mass transit can leave you with miles to go to your destination.

      I dunno about where you live, but here a lot of buses have stops literally on every corner, and there are subway stations where you can see the next station through the tunnel. And it was built in the 60s, when walking 5 minutes wasn't en epic undertaking.

    3. Re:interesting concept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Berlin the elevated U-Bahn (there's a contradiction in terms) tracks typically run above the median of a street. You can see it eg, here. It's quite pleasant actually, as the area underneath is then a nice covered walking path.

      This would be a big problem in space-starved Manhattan, but fine most anywhere else.

    4. Re:interesting concept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Two passenger monorail cars...

      Three passengers, you mean. That's the smallest number at which a group can break up so nobody has to sit alone.

    5. Re:interesting concept by burning-toast · · Score: 1

      These cars and lines are small enough and light enough to be attached to buildings or even run through the buildings themselves (no emissions, minimal vibrations due to rubber tires, etc.)

      Elevating one of these things could cast about as much shadow as a telephone pole if the power lines made a solid surface. (maybe a foot or two high (sans car)).

      Elevating a multi-ton train, even light rail, requires a lot of clearance and a robust track. The elevated train in Chicago takes up a 4 lane street worth of space (huge platform) for the multiple tracks in some places downtown. PRT would not have this problem since the individual cars can be simply attached to the buildings, or could be elevated on a track not much wider (or heavier) than roller coaster tracks. Additional tracks like the "through" lanes on freeways could be added for additional capacity with a very minimal outlay in ground clearance. A couple of telephone poles in the shape of a triangle with a brace is about as much support these would require (in general).

      These cars are powered by electric induction motors (think of the old track cars toys from the 80's but with better motors, rubber tires, and enclosed tracks), there is very little impact footprint involved with them in total. (and the tires would last quite a while due to not being used much for sudden stops / starts / slips on asphalt / concrete.

      My father has been working closely (and is an investor) in one of the PRT systems called taxi2000 (not sure how active the project is at this point) and the vast vast vast majority of their issues getting these systems installed, tested, and in-use on a wide scale is political backrubbing by existing transit authorities attempting to extoll the "virtues" of their systems. There is a phenomenal amount of money wasted in light rail / bus line funding.

      I don't remember the exact numbers but the "track" these cars operate off of is a magnitude cheaper than even light rail, and has a necessary minimum clearance in the measure of inches instead of yards for passing around or through obstacles. The light rail in Minneapolis that was laid down recently is a perfect demonstration of cost overruns, schedule overruns, interrupted service (and road travel), etc. inherent in the sort of ridiculous attempt at installing rail.

      More information on the system (with included videos and such) is found at: http://www.taxi2000.com/

      The basic gist here is that the PRT / taxi2000 systems could very well actually MAKE money for a city employing such a system since it has such cheap operational costs. No other mass transit system could claim to get anywhere even close. All other mass transit systems widely in use are publicly subsidized all of the time in some manner.

      - Toast

      P.S. My last light rail travel (on that newer light rail line in Minneapolis) was quite unpleasant; loud (screeching metal) tires, crowded (and hot) train, lots of stops for bridges / ferries / traffic intersections, infrequent stops (because train platforms are freaking huge and cannot be placed frequently along the route), etc. I hope the idea that light rail is "green" for anything other than point-to-point mass transit for high volumes (between cities, or between airports / stadiums / downtown areas / other mass transit hubs) dies like the horrid idea it is. Light rail is really not light at all compared to these PRT systems.

    6. Re:interesting concept by atamido · · Score: 1

      I prefer the similar system Skyweb Express (Taxi 2000). It uses a 3 person car, which is the minimum that with any sized group of people >1 no one would have to travel alone.

      http://www.taxi2000.com/

    7. Re:interesting concept by atamido · · Score: 1

      Very good point. But there are three differences that they are counting on:

      1. With smaller/lighter vehicles and newer building techniques, the rails would be thinner and quieter.

      2. Switching a small vehicle between tracks is easier, so there would be less tracks needed to cover an area.

      3. These pods would not be using iron wheels on iron tracks, which is the source of the iron dust that darkens everything around traditional train tracks.

      I don't know if it would make enough of a difference, but it is worth investigating.

    8. Re:interesting concept by David+Greene · · Score: 1

      These cars and lines are small enough and light enough to be attached to buildings or even run through the buildings themselves (no emissions, minimal vibrations due to rubber tires, etc.)

      No one has ever addressed the additional infrastructure you need around these wonderful skinny, light-weight tracks. Thinks like escape routes and ADA compliance. They don't end up being so skinny and light-weight after all.

      My father has been working closely (and is an investor) in one of the PRT systems called taxi2000

      Ah, that explains it.

      and the vast vast vast majority of their issues getting these systems installed, tested, and in-use on a wide scale is political backrubbing by existing transit authorities attempting to extoll the "virtues" of their systems. There is a phenomenal amount of money wasted in light rail / bus line funding.

      Oh really? I wish it were true. Our transit agency is being killed by budget cutbacks. The transit authorities extoll the virtues of their systems because they really do have virtues! The primary one is "field tested and proven to work."

      The light rail in Minneapolis that was laid down recently is a perfect demonstration of cost overruns, schedule overruns, interrupted service (and road travel), etc. inherent in the sort of ridiculous attempt at installing rail.

      Ok, now you're just spewing misinformation. The Hiawatha line was on time and under budget. It has already surpassed ridership predicted for the year 2020 and that predication included population projections of one million new people in the Twin Cities by 2030. LRT has proven itself to be very effective in the Twin Cities.

      PRT / taxi2000 systems could very well actually MAKE money for a city employing such a system since it has such cheap operational costs. No other mass transit system could claim to get anywhere even close. All other mass transit systems widely in use are publicly subsidized all of the time in some manner.

      I've got news for you. All transportation is subsidized. It always will be. That's a good thing. Transportation is a public good and as such is should be funded publicly. There is absolutely no reason to require transportation systems to make money. In fact, it's not even wise to do so.

      Please look into the money Taxi2000 has received from the state. PRT is just as subsidized as any other form of transportation.

      My last light rail travel (on that newer light rail line in Minneapolis) was quite unpleasant; loud (screeching metal) tires, crowded (and hot) train

      So your major complaint is that lots of people actually use LRT and it can get a bit noisy?

      lots of stops for bridges / ferries / traffic intersections

      What are you talking about? We don't have any ferries in the Twin Cities anymore. They've been gone a long time now. There are no LRT stops for bridges (I don't even know what that means) and stops for intersections happen downtown and are the same stops any car would have to make.

      infrequent stops (because train platforms are freaking huge and cannot be placed frequently along the route), etc.

      Hiawatha stations are about a mile apart. Too far, I agree. Most LRT systems around the country have stations every 1/2 mile. Federal Transit Administration rules are changing such that we should be allowed to build more stations for Central Corridor and other lines.

      I hope the idea that light rail is "green" for anything other than point-to-point mass transit for high volumes (between cities, or between airports / stadiums / downtown areas / other mass transit hubs) dies like the horrid idea it is.

      I've never heard any serious transit advocate say LRT should be used for anything else but a high-volume central transitway. That's what Hiawatha is. That's why it's so crowded in that train. We still have buses (though that system is shrinking thanks to Governor Pawlenty) because we use the right technology for the right job.

      --

    9. Re:interesting concept by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

      I couldn't find any explanation of how switching happens. I could speculate, but does anybody know?

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  19. I, too, have a Personal Rapid Transportation. by Grimbleton · · Score: 1, Redundant

    It's called a sportbike.

  20. Heathrow might work by Animats · · Score: 1

    The Heathrow thing might work. It's like the little tracked automated trams many airports have. The vehicles have some modest automated driving capability, so they don't have to have railroad switches, and they can do some passing at stations. They stay entirely on their own dedicated guideways, though; they never mix with other traffic.

    It's not really "personal". It's more like an automated bus system. This works for airports because the number of destinations is so limited.

    The Dubai effort is less likely to happen. Dubai is having a major recession. The extravagant construction projects that aren't well along are being scaled back.

  21. I wish this would get better and widespread. by ElSupreme · · Score: 1

    Personal Mass Rapid transit is really cool. It just needs to be setup in a way that it is analagous to a computer driving your car. With our current technology I have no idea whay this isn't being supported and promoted everywhere. Sure you have a vandal/vagrant problem, but you have that with all Mass Transit. And with some good engineering and problem solving those problems can be kept to a minimum.

    --
    My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
  22. Rumpty tumpty time by jonnyj · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We almost bought one of these systems in Cardiff, Wales a few years back. Then the local press started speculating that the pods would be a great place for couples to indulge themselves on the way home from the pub. Thoughts of grafitti-covered pods full of condoms, used syringes and vomit killed the scheme dead in its tracks.

    This might be OK in an airport. In an inner city it would be a disaster.

    1. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the local press started speculating that the pods would be a great place for couples to indulge themselves on the way home from the pub. Thoughts of grafitti-covered pods full of condoms, used syringes and vomit killed the scheme dead in its tracks.

      There's a bit of contradiction there. How is a pod full of condoms, syringes and vomit a "great" place for couples to indulge themselves? Maybe I just didn't date the right girls back in the day but the girls I dated would have had a strong preference for "home" over "pod full of condoms, syringes and vomit".

      More broadly, I imagine that a pod wouldn't be any more private than a public park but, if a couple could find a way to do it in a pod without getting caught, then so what? Sure, you wouldn't want a used condom left on the floor - but, except for the extremely rare couple that somehow enjoys leaving used condoms out in public, just put a little trash container in each pod and the problem is solved.

    2. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong on all counts. The Cardiff scheme was killed because of EU procurement rules: at the time, there was only one provider of the technology -- Bristol-based Advanced Transportation Systems (http://www.atsltd.co.uk/) -- and EU procurement rules disallow sole-source contracts from public agencies.

      As for the "grafitti-covered pods full of condoms, used syringes and vomit" -- there is every reason to believe that incidences of vandalism, assault, and general mischief in PRT vehicles will be vastly lower than in any other form of public transit. There are several reasons for this.

      First, most incidences of assault etc. occur when service levels are reduced during off-peak hours, and people are forced to wait, often alone and in the dark, for long periods of time. This creates obvious vulnerabilities and potentials for mischief. However, this scenario will NEVER occur in a PRT system. During peak hours of operation, when all of the vehicles in a network are in use, there may be occasions when lines form at stations and people have to wait a few minutes to get a vehicle. During off-peak hours, however, the majority of vehicles will be parked *at* the stations, and anybody who wants a ride will be able to get one immediately, with zero waiting. This fact alone eliminates the majority of the situations in which problems can occur.

      Secondly, the vehicles are heavily monitored with CCTV systems and other sensors to detect trouble, as well as emergency buttons that can put one instantly in touch with an operator. Of course buses and trains have CCTV too, but there's a critical difference: when a problem occurs on a bus or a train, the operator has two choices: either stop the bus and wait for the police to show up -- inconveniencing everybody else who is depending on that service -- or ignore the problem and hope it goes away. Neither is a very good option, obviously. CCTV monitoring is mostly used to act as a notional deterrent, and to provide material for the very occasional prosecution.

      In contrast, the options for dealing with trouble in a PRT vehicle are far more effective. If the panic button is pressed, the vehicle is instantly diverted to the nearest depot / security station. If the CCTV operator detects trouble (such as somebody vomiting, applying graffiti, etc.), the vehicle is instantly diverted to the nearest depot / security station. (In addition to random human spot checks, automatic image-monitoring routines can detect things like violent movements, loud noises, weapons, graffiti, etc., and alert a human CCTV observer for confirmation). If the CCTV images go black because somebody applied a bit of spray paint, then the vehicle is automatically diverted to the nearest depot / security station. And so forth.

      In other words, if you cause trouble on a PRT vehicle, you will immediately find yourself delivered into the hands to the nearest cop. You will not pass go; you will not collect $200. With that in mind, there is reason to believe that a PRT vehicle will be the *last* place on earth that anyone would be inclined to make trouble.

    3. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't be too difficult to deal with. You just need to make sure people don't feel too private or anonymous when traveling in the pods:

      1. Require an ID card to open the pod; this can double as the ticketing mechanism.
      2. Put large, clear windows in each pod, to reinforce the fact that the interior is not a private space.
      3. Put cameras in each pod, prominently indicated, which record the last few days' video to local storage.

      That last part is tricky; we wants the pods to be seen as "in public", and we need a way to identify the source of any vandalism, etc., but at the same time we don't want to create a situation where users are under constant surveillance. By keeping the videos local to the pods, and limiting their storage capacity, all these constraints can be met.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    4. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by jonnyj · · Score: 1

      You don't work for the manufacturer, do you? If you lived in Cardiff, you'd remember the scorn and ridicule that the Echo, Western Mail and local free press poured on the idea - not least becuase part of the proposed route was through an area of the city traditionally associated with prostitution. The political risks of the project were simply too high; the procurement rules issue was a convenient excuse.

    5. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by D-Cypell · · Score: 1

      Speaking as somebody who has spent more than his fair share of time out and about in UK cities in the hours after pub closing times, you would might be surprised at exactly how unimportant the feeling of privacy or anonymity is to certain types of drunken couples (or even strangers) when it comes to such activities.

      At least in the US, you need a major sporting event before you see tits and blow jobs en masse, in UK cities, all that is required is a couple of Vodka redbulls and a railway station bench.

    6. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      As long as they clean up after themselves, who cares?

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    7. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by powerlord · · Score: 1

      You don't work for the manufacturer, do you? If you lived in Cardiff, you'd remember the scorn and ridicule that the Echo, Western Mail and local free press poured on the idea - not least because part of the proposed route was through an area of the city traditionally associated with prostitution. The political risks of the project were simply too high; the procurement rules issue was a convenient excuse.

      So, what's the problem? Either way the project was jettisoned due to issues with Procurers. ;)

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    8. Re:Rumpty tumpty time by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

      Well, that's a stupid objection. Presumably there is a supply of pods. If one comes along that is objectionally dirty, you press the "this pod is dirty" button, it goes off to the cleaning shop and you get a new one.

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  23. Do I get to be the first one to say it? by Dodder · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Well I, for one, welcome our new PRT Overlords!

  24. Morgantown WV had a PRT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I grow up in Morgantown, West Virginia home of WVU and it's Personal Rapid Transport system. The Morgantown PRT was the first ever built, and it sucked. Very few locals or students used it, it was often just empty cars moving down rusting rails.

    PRTs don't work. They offer the inflexibility of trains, with capacity of cars. That's not a winnings solution.

    1. Re:Morgantown WV had a PRT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The wiki article you linked has an article from the Daily Athenaeum in 2007 that says it moves 16,000 a day with 99% being students and 2.25 million a year. That seems like a lot more than "very few locas or students" using it.

      Besides, the article for this story compares these new PRTs to the Morgantown and why they are better.

      http://www.da.wvu.edu/show_article.php?&story_id=31053

    2. Re:Morgantown WV had a PRT by hrieke · · Score: 1

      Also having grown up in Morgantown, I can say that the student body did use it, specially those who lived at the tower dorms and had classes downtown or who where just to lazy to walk to the Engineering school nearby.

      Also, what do you mean by the inflexibility of trains? the PRT would send a car to where you'd want to go directly, where as a train has fixed stops. Yes, the PRT is on a limited track, but it covered the campus well enough, plus down town. On the plus side you didn't have to deal with parking, which as anyone knows who's been to Morgantown, the parking just plain sucks (even worse than Boston or New York).

      --
      III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIIIV IIVIIIIIIVIII...
  25. Mod parent up ^^^^ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod that up. I want this now.

  26. Another Stupid Warmed Over Futurist Rehash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This POD nonsense is just stupid, someones been watching Sleeper.

          They should be perfecting the Orgasmotron instead!

    What kills this everytime, the need for individuals to maintain control and comfort over their transportation arrangements i.e. car rentals

    More space, power, privacy and range and mostly safety

    The POD will end up at Eurodisney and Amerodisney and if you grew up in the 60's like me, you have seen this all before with a HAL as the dashboard voice which turned out to be a Johnny Cab in Total Recall

    Someone has too much time and money qnd is obviously better at making a video presentation than coming up with something original

    cue the monorail

  27. The big picture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This could fundamentally change cities. Taxi rides at bus prices. Reduce emissions, no more need for parking meters, reduce ramps, gas stations, garages and lots. In busy areas at busy times you can even automate carpooling reducing traffic. Cities could be much more liveable and efficient.

  28. A 40+ year old pipe dream by migurski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    PRT's are not novel, they've been an engineering pipe dream for at least 60 years. There was a similar design effort in the 1970s in Paris that was the subject of an excellent book by Bruno Latour called Aramis. TFA says that PRT have been previous unworkable for "a variety of reasons, including the cost of the initial systems and the difficulty of integrating them into existing cities". The Paris project got all the way to physical prototypes, built sections of track, etc., and one of Latour's conclusions is that the PRT concept is itself unworkable. It lives in an inflexible no man's land between private vehicles and mass transit: passengers can't go where they want because the system has tracks and shared "pods", and engineers can't scale it how they want because the vehicles don't have flexible open space inside to cram in more passengers during busy times. Lose-lose, all around.

    1. Re:A 40+ year old pipe dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree it does live in an inflexible land between public and private, that niche is pretty large. Mode-split modeling is good at predicting travel behavior (when done as a comparison between scenarios) and these models have predicted heavy use of PRT in several cities where the modeling has been done, with an overall decrease in transport costs. The niche of the high demand corridor will still exist, and that is better served by metros; the niche of the private will also still exist and that is better served by cars.

    2. Re:A 40+ year old pipe dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ideally the PRT system would accomodate "hybrid" vehicles : halfway car, halfway pod. You provide a standardized vehicle to your customers, who can keep them at home at night. Then in the morning they drive them to the nearest station where they integrate the grid, full-speed towards downtown. Arrived at their downtown station they leave the vehicle which can then be used by other customers. There is also a charging system in place that can recharge the car's battery while it is running on the grid. Best of both worlds.

  29. Simple by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One big train or bus logically can only come by every so many minutes. You don't want to wait 15 minutes. Plus it can only follow a specific route.

    For example, my office is 10 minutes away by car. Yet if I were to ride the bus that goes there it would take 1.5 HOURS because first I have to wait 15 minutes for it to show up, then I have to ride downtown to a central station, wait another 15 minutes for the bus going to where I want to go, and then ride that bus. All the way these buses are starting and stopping and go maybe overall 1/2 the speed of a car.

    I don't have 1.5 hours of free time to spend commuting. Judging by the ridership, nobody else that is gainfully employed does either.

    Now, if we had say smart electric taxis that would show up when I need my ride and go directly there at speed, it would be basically a no-brainer. I'd be on it in 5 seconds. Even if it DID go half as fast as a normal car, so what? I can live with 20 mins if it will save me money. I might even do it if it cost the same.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    1. Re:Simple by David+Greene · · Score: 1

      One big train or bus logically can only come by every so many minutes. You don't want to wait 15 minutes. Plus it can only follow a specific route.

      And PRT can only follow a limited number of routes as well.

      For example, my office is 10 minutes away by car. Yet if I were to ride the bus that goes there it would take 1.5 HOURS because first I have to wait 15 minutes for it to show up, then I have to ride downtown to a central station, wait another 15 minutes for the bus going to where I want to go, and then ride that bus. All the way these buses are starting and stopping and go maybe overall 1/2 the speed of a car.

      That's a symptom of an underfunded transit system, not a problem with mass transit per se. Most U.S. residents don't have a clue what a real transit system looks like because generally, we don't have them.

      I don't have 1.5 hours of free time to spend commuting. Judging by the ridership, nobody else that is gainfully employed does either.

      Oh really? Here in Minneapolis, with one of the worst transit systems in the country in terms of fare cost vs. level of service, 40% of the people who work downtown use transit to get there. That's a lot of gainfully employed people.

      It's easy to fall for the anti-transit ideaologues' argument using gross averages of ridership rather than looking at the areas transit is actually targeted to serve.

      Now, if we had say smart electric taxis that would show up when I need my ride and go directly there at speed, it would be basically a no-brainer. I'd be on it in 5 seconds. Even if it DID go half as fast as a normal car, so what? I can live with 20 mins if it will save me money. I might even do it if it cost the same.

      What you're describing already exists: streetcars and Light Rail Transit. LRT is generally faster because it has its own private right-of-way, just like PRT.

      --

    2. Re:Simple by dasunt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For example, my office is 10 minutes away by car. Yet if I were to ride the bus that goes there it would take 1.5 HOURS because first I have to wait 15 minutes for it to show up, then I have to ride downtown to a central station, wait another 15 minutes for the bus going to where I want to go, and then ride that bus. All the way these buses are starting and stopping and go maybe overall 1/2 the speed of a car.

      I don't have 1.5 hours of free time to spend commuting. Judging by the ridership, nobody else that is gainfully employed does either.

      It's called a bicycle. Get some fenders, a good lock, and add a pannier or two for your work clothes.

      Travel slowly so you don't sweat (say around 10mph or so).

      If your office is 10 minutes away by car, odds are it is within two or three miles, should be easy to reach it within 20 minutes or so.

    3. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously have never lived in texas, or any of the larger areas of the U.S. Out here, I live 15 minutes from work, means you most likely live 5-10 miles from work. And the roads here are not bike friendly. Hell, I ended up selling my motorcycle after moving here because of all the trucks not being able to see me.

    4. Re:Simple by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 1

      And PRT can only follow a limited number of routes as well.

      Yeah, maybe right now today. There are already places that have buses that can drive themselves on marked routes. There is still a driver, but that seems to be more due to liability concerns than necessity. If a PRT system was built like that, then MOST roads could be properly marked, and at that point it is quite a bit more convenient than a bus.

      That's a symptom of an underfunded transit system, not a problem with mass transit per se. Most U.S. residents don't have a clue what a real transit system looks like because generally, we don't have them.

      No, the problem really is that unless the density of people is fairly high the required amount of funding PER POTENTIAL PASSENGER is far too high. Ridership is too low, the system cannot realistically be funded well enough to get more people to ride, thus ridership stays low, etc. When the system here was started it was actually profitable, but increasing operating costs have done for that.

      More to the point, I am not suggesting all such systems are not economical or don't work well, just giving an example of why it typically fails in many places. Not all that many people actually work downtown here proportionately either. It may work fine in Minneapolis (or at least it DOES work).

      What you're describing already exists: streetcars and Light Rail Transit. LRT is generally faster because it has its own private right-of-way, just like PRT.

      I am sure I didn't describe this well. OK, you could say 'streetcar', but what I'd like to be able to do is call up a 'streetcar' and have it show up, like a taxi, and it can simply carry me, like any car does now. The advantages are still large, if you don't need a driver. Far less parking required, much cheaper and thus better vehicle efficiency and maintenance, and given that it is a light vehicle not much waste on dead heading.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    5. Re:Simple by David+Greene · · Score: 1

      No, the problem really is that unless the density of people is fairly high the required amount of funding PER POTENTIAL PASSENGER is far too high. Ridership is too low, the system cannot realistically be funded well enough to get more people to ride, thus ridership stays low, etc

      That's a common misperception. Reality tells us that you don't need all that much density to make transit work. What you need is reliable and frequent service. That's where the funding usually falls short.

      When the system here was started it was actually profitable, but increasing operating costs have done for that.

      Why is profitability even a concern? We're talking about a public good here.

      Not all that many people actually work downtown here proportionately either.

      It's true that job growth is generally in the suburbs these days. And I agree that we need to provide transit service to those areas. However, the generally sprawled construction of suburban areas argues against fixed-guideway transportation. You really do need buses to get around out there. You use rail to provide high-capacity transport between employment and residential centers and buses to get around once you hop off the train.

      Something that would work well in a lot of areas is an LRT or similar rail system running alongside freeway beltways to get from one suburb to another and buses to shuttle people to/from the rail ring. The problem is political will and commitment to funding. Other countries build systems just like this.

      I am sure I didn't describe this well. OK, you could say 'streetcar', but what I'd like to be able to do is call up a 'streetcar' and have it show up, like a taxi, and it can simply carry me, like any car does now. The advantages are still large, if you don't need a driver. Far less parking required, much cheaper and thus better vehicle efficiency and maintenance, and given that it is a light vehicle not much waste on dead heading.

      I understand the dream and the appeal of it. But there are a few problems. There's more vehicle weight overall to move around when you use single-occupant vehicles. Dead-heading desn't actually cost that much. I'm remembering this off the top of my head but my recollection is that it takes somewhere around 5 passengers for a bus to recoup operating expenses. That is, there's an efficiency savings moving 5 people in a bus vs. moving five people in individual vehicles. Again, here in the Twin Cities there are very few buses running around with less than five people. And any that do make up the overhead when they carry more than five people, which is quite a bit of the time. There's really not much of anything more efficient than a bus, except rail.

      --

    6. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome. You obviously live in an area close to the city and where it's basically flat. Almost no one I know is in a position to do that.

      I can tell this because, 10 minutes by car to you means 2 or 3 miles, this means you live in a densely populated area with heaps of traffic.

      To give you some idea, travelling for 10 minutes depends on the direction I'm going. If I'm going towards the center of the city in 10 minutes I will cover 15km (9 miles). If I'm going away from it (where my work is), I'll travel about 25km (15 miles).

      This is in peak hour.

      Additionally, it's really hilly where I live, so only the most fittest riders do it, and they are usually professionals.

      Even Lance Armstrong found it hard.
      Lance Armstrong 'disappoints' at Tour Down Under as Allan Davis wins stage four

    7. Re:Simple by Arterion · · Score: 1

      You live in Nashville, too?

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    8. Re:Simple by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      I was about to ask you if you live in my neighbourhood, but then I noticed a detail: you wait 15 minutes for a bus. In my neighbourhood I would have to wait an average of 35 minutes, if I'm not lucky. Sometimes (specially in the weekends) the time between 2 busses can be up to 1:15h!

      --
      So say we all
    9. Re:Simple by jitterman · · Score: 1

      An idea many of us would embrace here in south Louisiana - if my office had a shower. I live literally and exactly 3.6 miles from my office, but would smell something awful if I cycled (pedal or even motor) to work.

      --
      For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
  30. Hanggliders by PinkyDead · · Score: 1

    Why do videos like this always show people hang-gliding as if that's a sure sign of 'The World of Tomorrow'? Is there some key indicator of technological advancement that is based on unpowered flight? Or are they trying to appeal to the niche sportsman?

    Also I'm glad to see all those women in the video were well covered up. Good to see that the envisaged middle east of the future still holds onto its core misogynistic values.

    --
    Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
  31. MOD REDUNDANT Re:Hardly new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You moron, the article mentions Morgantown quite explicitly and this has been mentioned by a hand full of articles already. Can you even read? Moderators, mod this retard accordingly.

  32. No no no by Kamineko · · Score: 1

    Is it easy to get out of one of these things? I can imagine somebody getting in one, picking a destination, being told that they're 'suspicious' (or the thing just breaking down) and being trapped inside one. This is not going to help anybody who has nightmares about Johnny Cab from Total Recall.

  33. You might think so, but... by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 1

    You have to account for a lot of other inefficiencies in a mass transit system, for instance

    http://www.templetons.com/brad/transit-myth.html

    This is certainly not the last word on the pluses and minuses of mass transit, but it certainly illustrates that mass transit systems are by NO MEANS de-facto more energy efficient than personal transportation.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  34. Blockage by tom17 · · Score: 1

    So, I understand that you have the main loop and then off ramps for loading/unloading passengers.

    1. So I assume they drop people off in one area and then move along to the pick-up area. Hopefully there is a pool of pods waiting in the pickup area further along the off ramp section otherwise people will be waiting for their ride if there are none available.

    If there are none available, will there be a 'pool' of pods at every loading/unloading location to call one from (if no travellers are currently due to arrive at this location) or will there be empty spares wasting time on the main loop, reducing throughput?

    If there is a pool, and it fills up as not enough people are calling a pod, I guess the computer can just send some pods off without passengers to a different pool or a central storage depot if there is no space in any other pools. This would be needed to prevent a backlog which could prevent people from getting to the unloading area.

    2. People unloading. Come on, we all know how hopeless the masses are, the scenario is Easter weekend or xmas or newyears or some other high throughput day at Heathrow. A gazillion numpties want to get to T5. Then the gobshites can't get out in time and start causing an 'unloading' backlog. This backlog backs up along the off ramp until it reaches the main loop. The main loop clogs.

    Looplock.

    Nice

    Tom...

  35. did I watch the wrong video? by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

    I think out of the whole video I saw about 10 sec of what might have been one of these things. I mean, It was some nifty graphics and all. But where was the demonstration? Maybe the idea was to see how much cleaner and less crowded the city will be with these?

    --
    Mod points: Guaranteed to remove your sense of humor.
    Side effects may include gullibility and temporary retardation
    1. Re:did I watch the wrong video? by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      You are correct. It's basically a promo of the city with a glimpse of an artist's conception of the johnny cab, but nothing in-depth.

  36. Trains v2.0 inventing a better wheel. by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

    but do they really do anything that trains and buses don't?

    Yes they have much more utility than trains and buses. Any given train or bus carries a large number of people and there is NEVER a case where every rider on a given train or bus has the same pick-up or drop-off location. Thus, users must wait for a train/bus to arrive at their stop, and then when on-board have to wait at stops at regular intervals throughout their journey.

    The "PRT" consists of autonomous "pods" that hods a small number of people, so they have the flexibility of a car. There can be a pod ready to go at a station at the exact time you need it and it can navigate itself to the "collector route", possibly joining up to a train of pods, then disengage from the train to a siding/turnout at the destination, and so the journey is non-stop without disrupting the journey of other commuters.

    Part of this flexibility also means that public transit can be designed more efficiently, as right now bus and train routes have to be designed to handle "peak load". You cannot easily shrink or grow a train or a bus, so for a lot of the time you see big vehicles and trains carrying few or no passengers. If you had a PRT consisting of "pods" that could "connect" and/or operate as a train then you could have pods available for public service 24/7, even in relatively low-traffic areas, at a much lower expense and environmental impact.

    Transit authorities tend to be closed-shops, so union guys don't like to hear this, but an automated PRT would save a lot of costs of hiring drivers, and eliminate human error factors. Vancouver, BC's "skytrain" is not a PRT but is automated (no drivers) and has the best on-time and reliability of all public transit systems on the whole continent. The skytrain is much safer than most LRTs not only because it is largely not at-grade, but because there are no drivers and the computer system is not able to bypass interlocks (ie. they are not able to speed or run through signals like human drivers have done at times to maintain schedule).

    After seeing the video of the proposed Heathrow system's test-run in Cardiff there is another benefit--with today's technology you could modify existing road infrastructures much cheaper than building tracks or monorails. The Heathrow system looks like it operates on what is basically a narrow road with high kerbs. Extending trains can be complex, especially when you have to route tracks underground, above-ground or parallel to roads where existing buildings may need to be demolished.

    Also, both at-grade trains and buses must contend with regular traffic. Buses are at the mercy of congestion and traffic lights, and at-grade trains must wait at intersections with the cars at times. Likewise, these systems disrupt regular road traffic.

    The future of "PRT" systems might be in "transit lane upgrades". Many cities have transit-only lanes, and implementing an effective PRT might be simply a matter of upgrading physical barriers, over/underpasses at selected intersections and signal wiring/sensors/wireless comms to facilitate automated operation.

    Holds a lot of promise if you ask me...

  37. Thanks but I wll be keeping my internal combustion by I_Can't_Fly · · Score: 1
    Two Cool Cars.

    This PRT stuff won't fly, and besides I already have my PRT shown in the link above!

    I don't mind hybrids, but pure electric would be fun, and also don't forget biobutanol, and biogasoline as drop in replacements for dino-juice.

    --
    Is this thing on? Check. Check.
  38. Other possibilities by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

    I thought of a way to make these PRT vehicles both anonymous and to solve the vandalization problem.

    While there would be multiple fare options, there would be the option of paying for a transit card using cash - but, you have to put down a $50 or so deposit.

    Each car would have a camera that photographs the interior once the occupants exit it, but the camera would have an obvious motorized shutter that would be closed while the car is in route. So you would know you had privacy.

    Obviously, if it turns out you vandalized or left some kind of mess, you lose the deposit.

  39. Fault with trains and busses by WebCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A bus would use the same amount of energy to stop and let 10 people off, as it would to stop and let 1 off.

    You refuted your own argument here. This is exactly why buses and trains are inefficient. During peak hours they are great--a full bus has dozens of people being carried by a single vehicle, but half the time buses are LESS than half full. Buses are very large and consume a lot of diesel, so if you can't run them full ALL the time they approach the efficiency of a car.

    The "peak load" problem can be solved by either closing or merging routes during non-peak hours (at the expense of customer service/utility of the system), or by running smaller buses and vans when demand is lower (reducing efficiency, increasing capital costs and lowering equipment utilisation)

    Also, public transit vehicles have to stop much more often than PRTs--there are a lot more energy savings in a non-stop route. There is no idling, no stopping and no acceleration to waste energy.

    Keep in mind that these new PRTs would be automated, which means there is more opportunity to employ energy-saving ideas that cannot be safely done with personal cars driven by humans. For example, pods can follow very close or even join into trains on-the-fly, and can separate on-the-fly as well. If pods are joined into trains, some or most of them could reduce or even shut down power and coast as they cruise--then you get similar or equal efficiency to a bus or train and better flexibility.

  40. Wonderful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the more reason to never live in a city!

  41. Another older example by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

    Cabintaxi had a novel approach. Pods on top of the track went in one direction, suspended cars hanging underneath went the other direction. From the linked article:

    Cabintaxi, a joint venture of Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Blohm (MBB) and Demag, has been the only group in the world to build a small-vehicle PRT system (referred to by some as a "true" PRT). A large test track facility was built in Hagen, Germany, that was used for an extensive testing program conducted from 1973 to 1979. The Cabintaxi technology logged over 400,000 miles of vehicle testing and operations from 1975 to 1978. In 1977 the system completed, fleet operation endurance testing, of 7500 continuous vehicle hours, and again in 1978, of 10,000 continuous vehicle hours, for a total of 17,500 vehicle hours of fleet endurance testing. The fleet was made up, at its maximum in this time period, of 24 operating vehicles over two levels. The Cabintaxi endurance tests are the only fleet endurance test of these magnitudes ever carried out successfully with vehicle separations under 3 seconds.

    The German Government considered this PRT development effort successfully completed and ready for urban deployment , but a planned application in Hamburg was terminated for budgetary reasons in 1979. With the termination of the Hamburg project, the participating companies withdrew from the field.

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
  42. Rapid Transit Tricks by icepick72 · · Score: 1

    Just before exiting the small car let a huge ripper for the next guy who steps in.

    1. Re:Rapid Transit Tricks by Theoboley · · Score: 0

      I wish I had that kind of control.

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    2. Re:Rapid Transit Tricks by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      That works for elevators (lifts to you limeys) too.

      Got a buddy at work that way - better yet he was in the elevator with me, and I ripped a huge one equisitely timed as I was stepping out smiling at him and the doors closing behind me.

      I can recall him shouting "you bastard! I'll get you for this!" - but in a tone that implicitly acknowledged he'd been pwned. :-)

  43. this is old technology by Irasburger · · Score: 1

    I lived in Morgantown WV (USA) for a year. Morgantown is a small city of about 50,000 people which has had a PRT system since the 1970s. It's the same exact thing, small electric vehicles with a max capacity of 12 people that don't have drivers but are controlled from a central station that monitors/controls all the vehicles on the system. They even call it the "PRT". It's a terrible form of transport, no different than any other public transit.

  44. Parking lots by tknd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with the US is suburbs and city planning around automobiles. Go on Google maps, look at Los Angeles. Next to every large building you'll see giant parking lots. Next to many homes you'll see driveways and/or roads wide enough for street parking.

    Now go to a large city in Europe or Japan. You'll still see parking lots and roads. But you'll find that there are fewer parking lots and the roads are narrow. If you have street view you'll see the buildings are taller and less spread out.

    All I'm pointing out is car culture leads to less density. This leads to poor public mass transit systems because they need a high level of ridership to be viable. But we may never get that because everyone is too convinced they need a car and a place to park it everywhere they go.

  45. This down not work for general transportation by David+Greene · · Score: 1

    We've had to deal with this PRT nonsense in Minnesota for the last 30 years thanks to the fact that a former U of MN professor came up with the idea.

    The truth is that PRT is often an excuse for anti-transit idealogues to delay any real investment in public transit. I've seen good projects delayed and killed due to some legislator bringing up the hairbrained idea of PRT.

    Why technically competent people fall for this pipe-dream is beyond me. Here's just a short list of the technical issues I've not seen addressed by anyone:

    • How do you get people out of elevated pods in an emergency and still claim the low design and construction cost?
    • I have no confidence we know how to write distributed software to manage even a moderately large deployment, much less a medium-sized metropolitan area. Distributed software is hard and it has to be real-time too, which is also hard.
    • The elevated guideways will be an eyesore, especially with the infrastructure needed to handle emergencies (see first bullet point).
    • Oil and other fluids will leak and drip to the ground below. Mitigation will be even more of an eyesore.
    • The passenger throughput claims are outrageous. They rely on little to no headway between pods and perfect behavior of people. The thought that PRT can handle close to as many trips during congested times as a good LRT system is laughable.

    If you read the PRT literature, the argument is not based on technical merit, it's based on fear. All sorts of propaganda about scary bus people and having to ride with strangers (oh no!) gets spewed by PRT supporters.

    PRT supporters talk about "new technology" and how rail is "19th century technology." As computing professionals, we know that "old" does not equate to "outdated." In fact it's often just the opposite. "Old" means "proven in real-world situations."

    No, PRT is just another way to continue our addiction to single-occupant vehicles and oil. It's another way to kill any real investment in public transit.

    --

  46. Still takes too much energy by snakeboat · · Score: 2

    Why should I need a 1,000lb machine to move me from place to place? I have, right now, in my garage, five machines which weigh less than 25lbs each and will take me (with a lil effort) to within 5 feet of my destination ant the exact time I wish to depart, at any time of day. Of course, they require a small expenditure of energy, 1,000 calories per day usually does it, but that keeps the beer from gathering round my middle. What's more, I can ride two of 'em on trails for huge fun. Oh, and the skinny tired one can hit 60 on a straight stretch here in CO... PRTs my butt. Guess someone's gotta sell somthin somewhere, eh.

  47. Uh... 100 years behind? by fugue · · Score: 1

    What's wrong with bikes? If you've got the cash to put up the infrastructure for these things, why not lay down some bike paths instead? Bikes are far safer than anything that weighs 500kg and moves (if you question the safety of bikes, look it up before making a fool of yourself), cheaper, simpler, have vastly fewer toxic nasties floating around in their power cells, can be parked without causing urban sprawl and massive parking infrastructure costs, and incidentally would eliminate about 85% of the health crisis within a year.

    But I suppose nobody is interested in solutions that have been around for a century.

    --
    "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
    1. Re:Uh... 100 years behind? by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only real problem with bikes is weather. If it were up to me, I'd ride my bike every day. But when there's a few inches of snow on top of ice, it's nearly impossible (at least for me) to get anywhere without falling over ever 20 feet.

      I guess they could start salting the bike lanes, but then you'd still have the problem if being very, very cold when you tried to get to work.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
  48. Cars don't scale by Phoenix666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    well in dense urban environments. NYC would have to turn the entire island of Manhattan into a 10-story parking garage to accommodate the millions of people who commute in on subways and buses everyday. Also, the traffic would be a Dantean nightmare, as opposed to the nightmare it already is with a tiny minority of commuters *cough* Jerseyites *cough* driving in.

    Mass transit is also much faster and vastly cheaper. Driving from Brooklyn to the Upper East Side would take about 90 minutes with traffic. Subway gets you there in 45 minutes or even 35 if you catch the transfers right. And an $84 monthly pass lets you ride as much as you want, whereas the same money are what it costs you to fuel a Hummer for a couple weeks. But then you also have to pay for parking, and insurance, and tolls, and maintenance....

    Last but not least, my subway pass stays in my pocket and somebody else watches the trains. As opposed to leaving $100,000 worth of my personal property on the street where some jackass can mess with it or steal it.

    So really, at the end of the day getting on your city's back to get them to build out a better transit system is a much better transportation solution than keeping running on the car and oil industries' hamster wheel.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
    1. Re:Cars don't scale by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 1

      Ah, but that is the difference between NYC and Burlington, VT. Believe me, I've spent plenty of time in NYC and Boston as well. I have a pretty good idea of what a transit system is and why it is beneficial there. It is just not the same type of story here.

      Eh, really I think the whole debate about mass transit in this country is pretty much moot anyway, we're already toast. Stick a fork in the US, she's done.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    2. Re:Cars don't scale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last but not least, my subway pass stays in my pocket and somebody else watches the trains. As opposed to leaving $100,000 worth of my personal property on the street where some jackass can mess with it or steal it.

      You drive a car worth $100,000? Holy toledo, batman. Can we carpool?

  49. Watching the animation by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 1

    Without reading TFA left me confused. Either these new transit things are personal gliders, some sort of space age street-cars, taxi-cabs out of Total Recall or massive egg shaped ships.

    Personally, I'm hoping for the latter.

    --
    The Internet is generally stupid
  50. Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2, Informative

    I CAN and have, and do bike it, but that works only from May to September in Vermont. Right now today the roads are entirely impassible to bicycles.

    In any case, the commute time argument still holds, 10 miles is a good 45 minute ride. Less than the bus, but it is requiring a certain degree of commitment of time.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    1. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      you do know you can get studded tires for bikes as well right? With some good nokian on an mtb you can ride pretty much anywhere at any time even with snow/ice/...

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      -- the cake is a lie
    2. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ah, maybe you haven't experienced Vermont. Yes, you CAN to a certain extent do that. However, riding on icy roads in the dark in the dead of winter is not highly recommended. On good days its somewhat feasible.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    3. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by 2short · · Score: 1


      I have "experienced Vermont", central Maine (which was worse), and currently Colorado. All have produced weather I would not feel safe driving in, so I'm glad I ride a bike.

      Ice is a non-issue with studded tires. Deep enough snow will stop you, but that's considerably deeper than a car can handle. There is no weather where you can drive but not bike.

    4. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      50 below wind chills (That's Fahrenheit; about -45 C) or worse? You can do it if you're well prepared, and you're willing to risk serious injury if you get your clothing wrong.

      You sound like the guys who code server-side web apps in assembler. Sure, it's possible, but it's far too much work and fuss for most people. You're advocating that people get special tires, special protective clothing, get into top physical shape, and take extra commuting time so they can use a bike rather than a car. You're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of roads are bicycle-hostile, by design and drivers' attitude, or sometimes by law. You're ignoring the fact that, if you're biking when it's unsafe to drive, some people are going to be driving, and if they happen to skid and sideswipe you they'll feel bad but you'll feel a whole lot worse. (I have been injured while being in the right legally. It ain't worth it.)

      Bikes have their place, sure, but they aren't a panacea. I've had precisely one job where commuting by bike made any sense; the others I either rode the bus (and sometimes walked on nice days) or biking was impractical. (There's places in the suburbs that are basically accessible by bike-unfriendly roads, and I live in Minnesota.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by 2short · · Score: 1

      Nah, I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying you should not ignore the possibility of biking because you live in a place with bad weather. I'm saying biking is generally a much more viable option than most people give it credit for, that it is not as much fuss and work as is generally assumed.

      Is biking a good option for you? I have no idea; I don't know you. For a lot of people, it is, in my opinion, a better option than they assume it is. Note that:
        - the special tires (that you need in conditions well past when cars need snow tires) cost $20;
        - I didn't buy any clothing I didn't need for going outside generally,
        - Top physical shape? I wish. You'll want to quit smoking; not that you'll have to, but you'll want to. Unfortunately, you can stay fat.

      "I've had precisely one job where commuting by bike made any sense; the others I either rode the bus (and sometimes walked on nice days) or biking was impractical."

      You walked on nice days but biking was impractical? I must be misreading you.

      "There's places in the suburbs that are basically accessible by bike-unfriendly roads"

      This is true. Personally, I will not live in such a place. In any case, the guy I replied to is within 10 miles of Burlington VT, and (based on my knowledge of the area) should not have that problem.

    6. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I was apparently unclear on the part about my jobs.

      I've commuted to jobs either by the bus system or by car. Some of the ones accessible by bus were within walking distance, and on nice days I might walk instead. Most of the car commutes I've had were because the jobs were much to far to bike to practically, and often on bike-unfriendly routes. (In fact, the streets where I live are fine for cyclists, but this is not necessarily true of where I've worked.) There was one job I held for two years that would have been within biking distance, on acceptable roads, but the bus system didn't provide a practical way to get there. I probably should have bought a bike.

      I may also have been oversensitive. I've seen too many bikers take a doctrinal approach, implying that if I'm reluctant to bike 23 miles each way in a blizzard, or strong wind at -20F (c. -30C) I'm doing things wrong. I'm glad to find you aren't going to be like that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:Yeah, maybe 10 miles. by 2short · · Score: 1


      I don't think anyone should bike 23 mile each way in a blizzard. I just think they should move. :)

      Seriously though, I know some of the bikers you refer to, who's attitude is "I bike everywhere because I'm so hardcore. Everyone should be hardcore like me and bike everywhere." In contrast, my position is "I bike everywhere, but honestly, I'm not all that hardcore; it's just not as hard as you probably think."

      I only have to go a a few miles, but I actually look forward to snowstorms; snow biking is fun (for short distances).

  51. Ultra uses only 40% of the energy of buses/trains. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1
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    Deleted
  52. Welcome to Jonny Cab! by Aereus · · Score: 1

    Where would you like to go?

    =)

  53. It scales better than buses or trains. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Yea, but it loses the efficiency of scale.

    No. it doesn't.

    It's electric. It doesn't have to stop till it reaches the destination. The bloody things are 2kW. That's like a hairdryer.

    A bus has to stop at every bus stop and then accelerate a 30 tonne vehicle back up to 30mph. As does a train, except that's 45 tonne vehicle.

    Now think about the nature of a 45 tonne train accelerating and decelerating.. You can only afford to run it at peak times. At other times you have to reduce the schedule, which means people waiting longer. Which means poorer performance.

    Now think of the infrastructure required to support a 45 tonne (per carriage) vehicle . It has to be big. That means expensive, and both big and expensive mean that it can only be run to the areas of highest demand. The truth is that trains do not scale. Buses scale better but have even poorer performance characteristics.
     

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    Deleted
  54. PRT: The Phlogiston theory of mass transit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PRT is a beautiful device that combines the pathetic capacity of the Automobile with the high infrastructure costs and lacking agility of the Tram/Metro/Railroad train.

    Combining PRT with other systems is a big no-no. You're better off trying to solder your cat to your PC's mainboard.

    Your average metro service should be able to handle one train every three minutes. With a usual capacity of 1000 people each, a single metro station should technically be able to receive 20k people per hour and direction. I foresee that a PRT unit would be about as crowded as an automobile during rush hour, i.e. 1.1 people/unit. A metro to PRT exchange should therefore be designed to shift some 36K PRT units per hour, ten units per second. If we assume a speedy ten seconds for exchanging passengers and entering a destination, we would need 100 platforms to service this metro. (And of course whatever support tracks imaginable.) 100 PRT platforms actually take space.

    Then there are simpler issues. What do you do with the drunkard who took a nap in the PRT unit of your choice? Or what if he decided to decorate the intricate fabric pattern of the seats with his half-digested kebab? PRT units will require constant surveilance by cameras and odor detectors.

    Nah, off to the Gulags with the PRT and Automobile lobbies I say.

  55. burkas in the video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find amusing how the women in the video are dressed in burqas.

  56. There is no bad weather, only bad clothing. by fugue · · Score: 1

    In the flatlands, velomobiles are pretty sweet when it's cold and windy. I don't ride my bike when it's below -5C, personally, although I have friends who do (all I'd really need that I don't have is overboots). Ice is another barrel of monkeys entirely, although tricycles (velomobiles) with studded tires are probably about as agile as cars and of course safer due to lower speeds. But they're heavy, and so a pain if it's hilly; and they're big, so they're not as easy to park as bikes; and they're expensive. The alternative--warm clothing--is easy, cheap, versatile, and completely up to the job, if you don't feel threatened by the fashion police for biking in ski gear.

    In these parts, they do maintain the bike paths almost as well as the car paths. I was assuming that if the subjects of the article had money for infrastructure for neosegways, putting some into path maintenance would be reasonable. And of course adding bike paths to the normal city snow removal budget shouldn't make much of a difference. In an ideal world...

    --
    "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
  57. It should be exceptionally spectacular by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

    I absolutely think personal transit should be door-to-door. And I think it would be cost-effective.

    Around 1990, Mark A. Delucchi at UC Davis did studies on the social costs of automobiles . These include things like health costs from accidents and air pollution, taxes for highway maintenance, time lost in traffic jams, and so on. His calculations showed Americans were spending somewhere between $1.6 trillion and $3.2 trillion each year for highway transportation. (Even counting just the actual direct monetary costs, he counted between $1 trillion and $1.5 trillion.)

    Now I understand that there is a lot of profit too, like all the money doctors, insurers, etc. are making off this stuff, but nobody argues we should encourage smoking so doctors can get richer (and who makes money from a traffic jam?).

    I think we can use those trillions much more effectively than having combustion vehicles careening all over the place.

  58. 20 years too late... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  59. hehehe by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 1

    Burlington VT. Much smaller than Nashville ;)

    What really kills the bus system around here in a sense is that geographically it makes no sense to have routes that go from one edge of town around to the other, yet that is realistically the only way to efficiently get to a lot of places. So unless you're going directly DT any bus you take is at least 2x the distance of driving, and on slower interior roads + making stops. So the time difference is just drastic.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  60. your statement only proves your privileges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your observation of public transport only proves that you observed said transport during the 'good' hours. You are probably a white privileged office worker, that catches the train or bus at 9 to 5.

    Ever caught it outside those times?

    Ever caught a train at 6AM on a Saturday morning? What about at 10PM on a Thursday night?

    I doubt you have. You live in a safe little cocoon.

  61. dyslexia... or jungle fever? by junglelf2k · · Score: 1

    I could have sworn the heading read: "Two Big Breasts for Personal Rapid Transit"