EU Commissioner Wants Standard For Mobile Phone Connectors

Jantastic writes "European Commissioner Günter Verheugen wants manufacturers of mobile phones to come up with a standard connector for chargers and microphones. If companies fail to do so, proposed legislation should speed up this process. In theory, this could improve competition, while enabling longer life cycles for these devices."

Comments

USB?

[Toe, The]

You mean like USB and, I dunno... maybe mini-USB?

Re:USB?

[internerdj]

So every phone from your cell provider has a USB or mini-USB connector for charging? Must be nice.

Re:USB?

[neokushan]

I'd love for all future phones to be connectible via USB. No doubt even if some kind of legislation passes, the phone companies will pawn a crippled bluetooth implementation as being the "universal connector" while still making you shell out £25 for a stupid cable that just so happens to do something the bluetooth can't.

Re:USB?

[masmullin]

You can get cells with their own special USB connectors (like iPod/iPhones). You can get cells with micro USB, you can get cell phones with mini-USB.

You can get cells with 2.5mm headphones, you can get some with 3.5mm headphones.

Its all rather annoying.

Re:USB?

[compro01]

Sounds like a good idea. You just need to get the manufacturer's to do that.

Which is never going to happen without regulation, as they make a decent amount of money selling magical cables and power bricks.

I have only seen one phone with a real standard (not "let's put 2.5V across the data lines for incompatibility purposes" or "requires a special driver on the computer to bestow it's blessing to charge the phone" or other such nonsense) USB connection.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia already made the switch.

Most of the new phones have mini-usb already. Instead of having two connectors, one for power and one for data, they can now have just one on the phone. Also, mini-usb is quite convenient for the other end's requirement and cheap to implement.

Re:USB?

[MightyMartian]

I've seen two LG phones now that have some sort of pseudo-mini USB which will not fit a standard cable. It's a scam to force you to buy overpriced cabling from them.

Re:USB?

[hags2k]

So every phone from your cell provider has a USB or mini-USB connector for charging? Must be nice.

I think the GP meant to suggest that usb and mini-usb might be a good candidate for a standard charging interface.

Re:USB?

[Midnight Thunder]

You mean like USB and, I dunno... maybe mini-USB?

Yup, that would be good, or at least require them to include an adaptor in the box. The other thing that they should sort out is getting these phones to be able to recharge with any USB power plug. The iPhone and the iPod are guilty here, requiring you to buy special 'iPod' capable power adapters. Then again it could be the plug manufacturers for not wiring all the lines up in the USB portion of the plug.

Re:USB?

[Captain Splendid]

Mod parent up. My camera USB cable works great on my wife's nokia and the latest Motorola phones. Not only did I not need to buy a cable, I reused it for two new applications!

Re:USB?

[plover]

It is very nice. Motorola standardized on the mini-USB connector back around the time they introduced the RAZR. Every Motorola product I've bought since about 2005 uses a mini-USB jack for power and charging. This includes a Bluetooth stereo adapter, a couple pairs of Bluetooth headphones, a Bluetooth handsfree ear-bud, and at least five different models of cell phones.

And I have never had to buy a separate cable to connect my Motorola phones to my PC when it's time to upload new content. That's not true of my Sony-Ericsson or Nokia phones.

And because they're all the same, I have several identical power bricks, which is ideal for having one at work, a couple in different rooms at home, my wife has one, and our car chargers are all interoperable.

It's one of those levels of convenience that seems stupid and shallow (and probably is), but it definitely drives me back to Motorola as a customer.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, the same cable online for $0.99 and $1.50 s/h. It is a dumb wire with two different ends. :/

Re:USB?

[Cillian]

Well, if enough manufacturers start doing it, people will get pissed off when their standard charger doesn't work. So you don't need to force all manufacturers to do it, if you can convince a lot to do somehow. The somehow, being the question. Though I can't see it being a major choosing point in me buying a future phone, it'd definitely be a nice thing to have if it becomes common. And I'm all for it being mini-USB, since there are already cables abound for powering it from the wall, computers, batteries, and solar panels. (Not to mention it'd be pretty neat to standardise an accessory port. I'm currently considering paying 30 quid to nokia for a decent headphone adapter thing because I have to use the shitty pop-port on my n73. And that's on top of the 15 quid I'll be spending to actually get a decent set of headhones)

Re:USB?

[Andy Dodd]

The problem is that there is no way to charge phones in a standard way with USB.

USB dictates that a device is only permitted to draw 100 mA unless it has negotiated a connection with a host AND that host has given it permission to draw more.

As a result, any device that charges from USB must either:
a) Limit itself to 100 mA or less (not going to happen)
b) Limit itself to only charging when it enumerates with a PC (see the "special driver" scenario, although there are admittedly better ways to do this - behave as a "standard" device for which all modern OSes have drivers, but still this is a very restrictive approach as it doesn't allow for "dumb chargers".)
c) Have some sort of method to signify the presence of a "dumb charger" to the device. THIS IS NOT COVERED BY ANY CURRENT USB SPECIFICATION. As a result it is at best covered by "de facto" standards. For example, mini-USB connectors have an additional pin not found in normal USB connectors. (Why, I do not know, I'm guessing "future growth" for later USB revisions). It is defined as "not connected" in standard USB, but it's a "de facto" standard (adopted by Motorola, Blackberry, HTC, Holux, and quite a few others) to signify a "dumb charger" by grounding this pin. (Unfortunately, most devices will fail to operate as a data device when this pin is grounded.)

Sadly, Apple does it in a different manner with weird resistances and voltages.

Unfortunately there's no way to standardize this without somehow incorporating it into USB 3.0. I sort of recall that this might have actually been taken into account for USB 3.0, but if not, it's too late for the EU - USB 4.0 is a looooooooong way away.

Re:USB?

[Kokuyo]

Ah, you mean like the N95 8GB that lets me connect with a standard mini usb cable but will not charge over the same?

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problems with using the USB standards for this purpose are:

1) Unnecessary dependency on the USB standard: what if a future USB standard introduces a new connector? Then we're back to... now. And hopefully, nobody decides to charge a fee per port like Apple tried with Firewire. The USB committees won't want their hands tied by folks who just want to charge a battery.
2) The market has been free to do exactly this for years. It has not. There must be good reasons why; these I would like to hear.
3) The USB connector is big compared with almost all charger plugs. The mini-USB plug is about as big as the 5.0 mm DC adapter plug, but it's still too large for many applications.
4) USB is only available in 5 V 500 mA at best. Also, in order to get that from a standard USB port, you need to have some kind of chip to identify to the hub and ask for that power. Unnecessary complexity.

The real need is for a standard set of connectors where a specific connector type maps to a specific voltage, polarity is standardized, and things don't get wonky in undercurrent and overcurrent conditions (mostly, make sure the adapter doesn't overheat if it's not strong enough for the load). Universal adapters have numerous connectors, and a switch to set voltage and polarity. Failing to set these right usually results in the device not operating or being destroyed.

I've lost track of how many people have complained to me that they shouldn't have to worry about such things, that they should be able to plug it in and it should work, just like everything else they own. I've also heard lots of people respond with the usual "learn2charge" and such. I also remember hearing that same things back when people complained about command lines, and how, even so, GUIs just came in and took over. There is a market for a lower-risk, more-standard means of interfacing DC power to loads, but none of the actors right now see a financial incentive. Props to the Europeans for trying to get the ball rolling.

Re:USB?

[Kokuyo]

My ex HTC P3300 charged just fine over USB.

Re:USB?

[corsec67]

Then again it could be the plug manufacturers for not wiring all the lines up in the USB portion of the plug.

All 4 lines have to be wired up, or many things would fail to recognize/use the USB port.

The issue with Apple is that the device being plugged into the port is only supposed to draw 100mA (1 "unit"), and can request more, but shouldn't draw the extra power until being told it is "ok". So it seems that instead of just drawing 100mA, the iPhone draws either 500mA with authorization or none without.

Many devices just grab 500mA without authorization, (like USB vacuum cleaners, lights, etc.), so in this case Apple is actually correct. I think the issue is that the computer OS doesn't authorize the extra power draw if it doesn't have a driver for the specific device that was plugged in.
(More here)

Re:USB?

[__aagctu1952]

You mean USB with its maximum power draw of 500 mA @ 5V? No thanks. Charging takes too damned long already.

Re:USB?

[compro01]

Must be something odd about my laptop's cooling pad as it can draw roughly 400mA without any driver stuff. the data lines are open circuited, with the Vcc to the fan motors and the ground through a switch to same.

Re:USB?

[BESTouff]

There just needs to be a standard way of asking for more current than is currently available (when following the USB spec) for charging. For example, the Openmoko FreeRunner can consume 1A over its USB plug, and even if most USB hubs can satisfy that, it's impossible to ask formally over the wire.

Re:USB?

[argent]

It's getting that way, but if the legislators get hold of it they'll probably define yet another new and unnecessary standard instead of something sensible like that.

Re:USB?

[Ironsides]

In at least a mild defense of apple, they use their connector for a variety of things, not just data. That connector is used for analog audio, analog video and for accessories. USB wouldn't allow them to do that, unless they added a 2nd connector (which they are loathe to do). In fact, if all the phone manufacturers standardized on USB, they would also need a 2nd connector for the wired microphones and headsets as the USB port would not accept it. Well, unless they came up with yet another standard or used the really expensive USB headphones.

Re:USB?

[qw0ntum]

Was it a microUSB port you saw? That is what my LG phone has for connecting to my computer and charging. It's definitely not non-standard, although it was the first device I got that used the micro.

Re:USB?

[Zocalo]

The ones that I'll even consider buying any more do. The same goes for any another gadget with a potential for connection to a PC and a realistic expectation that USB will be capable of providing enough juice to charge it up. Heck, even some of my devices (a desktop fan and a *toothbrush*) that have zero real need for a PC connection use a Mini-USB socket for their power needs. Being able to go away and only pack one wall wart, plus have the confidence that even if you lose it you can get a local replacement without any hassle at all is about as good as it gets for portable devices.

Also, can anyone *please* explain what possible reasoning might lie behind EICTA's Tony Graziano statement that Verheugen's demand is "legally and technically impossible" due to differences in voltage and battery requirements within the European Union? Seriously. Inquiring minds want to know! I have a USB wall wart with a modular mains connector that you just snap the appropriate plug onto and that handles just about any input voltage you care to chuck at it and it has the EU stamp of approval on it, so I think it's absolutely legally and technically possible.

Re:USB?

[argent]

It could be Mini-A instead of Mini-B, or it could be Micro-A or Micro-B, or maybe USB-OTG Mini-AB or Micro-AB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Mini_and_micro

Re:USB?

[MightyMartian]

It's definitely not a micro-USB. I used a standard one to fiddle around with my wife's old Motorola, but both my junky LG Keybo (anybody installed Linux on that yet????) and my daughters' LG have non-standard USB cables.

Re:USB?

[Tacvek]

All HTC phones phones have real standard USB connections.

Now, there is something special about drawing more than 1/2 amp (maximum allowed by USB standard), as the charging station can distinguish between the supplied 1 amp charger, and other power sources (real usb, or smaller chargers).

This much I do know:
It will charge at at least 1/2 amp from dumb chargers, or will charge at whatever current it can negotiate from a usb host. It will charge at one amp with the provided cable. It might charge at 1 amp with third party chargers, or might stop at 1/2 amp. It might be willing to use more than 1/2 amp if a usb host provides it.

Any which way, half-amp is still a decent charging current, unless you are trying to place a call while charging.

The downside of HTC phones is that many of them use a very non-standard headset connector. (An extension to the mini-usb port).

Re:USB?

[JohnAllison]

This was one of the reasons I purchased my SLVR years ago.

I later discovered that I can not charge the phone, and use the audio out at the same time. (Think cross country road trips) Other than that I do like the idea of a singular connector to charge.

As devil's advocate, let's look at the iPhone, because I have one and am familiar with it. Two connectors, one for audio/mic, another, the proprietary dock connector.

I assume Apple and those with other proprietary connectors would have to retool how they output video, audio, line out, control, in/out, PWR, GND, and anything else over USB. Annoying, but possibly worth it to consumers.

However, how much competition are we losing by specifying which connectors or what interfaces should be mandatory. When the tech industry shoots past this legislation do we really want devices tied to legacy connectors?

Should the government regulate or is this an area where the speed of the consumer to adapt to the market will better provide the winners and losers of an industry?

I'd like to see what the industry has to offer before I call for regulation

P.S. I hate mini-Displayport.

Re:USB?

[commodore64_love]

+1 insightful.

Here in the U.S. the legislators forced Digital HD-VHS to conform to Firewire connections, in order to stop piracy. That would have been okay, but they mandated a bastardized version with only 4 prongs instead of the usual 6, and finding a Cable or TV tuner box with that special connector is nigh impossible.

If D-VHS had been able to capture signals over RF connectors, like analog VHS does, the standard would have been successful for recording HDTV as early as 2001, rather than being non-friendly and scaring off consumers.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

    You mean like USB and, I dunno... maybe mini-USB?

This is exactly how I buy phones. If it doesn't have a USB connector then I won't buy it.

I'm also completely against the government passing this stupid requirement and as a techno-savvy gadget buyer you should be, too.

• I'm more than capable of making this decision on my own without the government's "help"
• What happens when there's a newer connector that's better than USB or mini-USB? No one is allowed to use it because of the existing requirement?
• What happens if the power-draw of your gadget is greater than what USB can provide?
• What happens if the communication rate of your gadget is greater than what USB can handle?
• What happens if there is a limitation or flaw in the USB standard that prevents the use of it with some new and creative gadget or application?
• What happens to all the competing data connection solutions? What if someone wanted to put Firewire/IEEE-1394 connection on a phone?
• What happens to the holder of the USB patents now that all the phones must have one? Is every manufacturer required to license USB regardless of the cost? That takes away freedoms from phone manufacturers. Is the USB patent holder required to provide USB solutions at a reduced price or for free? That takes away freedoms from the patent holder.

Government is much slower moving than technology. It's a bad idea to use government to mandate technology - it's much better to use your own decision making process and buy what's best for you.

Re:USB?

[Lord Ender]

Actually, mini-USB type B is becoming the de facto standard for mobile device power and data cables.

Personally, I won't buy any device that doesn't use it. This makes my life much easier, as I only need one charger/data cable when I travel.

I expect this will be the standard until it is replaced by magnetic chargers for power with bluetooth for data. That's a consumer's heaven: 100% cordless everything!

Re:USB?

[petermgreen]

The somehow, being the question
By issuing an ultimatum.

When you remove the sugarcoating the european commisioners message seems to basically boil down to "we can do this the easy way or the hard way, agree a standard among yourselves or we will come up with one and ram it down your throat"

Re:USB?

[tlhIngan]

Yup, that would be good, or at least require them to include an adaptor in the box. The other thing that they should sort out is getting these phones to be able to recharge with any USB power plug. The iPhone and the iPod are guilty here, requiring you to buy special 'iPod' capable power adapters. Then again it could be the plug manufacturers for not wiring all the lines up in the USB portion of the plug.

Actually, that is the problem. A USB charger doesn't just supply 5V on Vbus and that's it. A USB device that's properly spec'ed can't draw more than 500mA from a USB port, but given some USB devices, that could mean it takes days to charge via USB, or even, it doesn't charge at all. (There are devices out there that draw more than 500mA when busy, so it's actually possible to drain the battery while in use.)

To cope with this, there is a "USB Charging Specification" that specifies how to identify the charger, so devices can do a quick detection, and if it is a charger, start drawing 800mA, 1A, 2A or however much they want to to ensure a fast charge, or even slow charging while busy. This is done via a specially selected set of resistors hooked to Vbus and ground to the D+ and D- lines. The charger itself shorts D+ to D-, and whe connected, instead of the idle state that is expected (D+/D- low - pulled by weak pulldowns from the host), it detects a "1" state on both pins. The device then knows it's safe to draw whatever it wants.

Oh yeah, unconfigured USB devices can only draw 100mA for a limited time - long enough to charge its battery so it can identify itself, at which point it must disconnect, boot up, and identify itself, at which point, it can draw 100mA or 500mA from the port (depending on what the bus can supply).

Cheap devices can use just 5V on Vbus and charge. Proper USB drives that pass USB certification can't, and if they attempt to draw more than 500mA from a host port on a PC, it's a fail. Hence schemes like these so they can pass certification, but still be able to "fast charge" properly. It's surprisingly difficult to do USB power "properly."

USB 3.0 devices can have 150mA unconfigured or 900mA (I believe) configured.

Re:USB?

[petermgreen]

d) ignore the USB spec and pull 500ma whatever the host does.

Re:USB?

[jimicus]

You can get cells with their own special USB connectors (like iPod/iPhones).

Then it's not a USB connector, is it?

It's just a random proprietary connector and you just happen to get a USB lead with it.

Re:USB?

[icebike]

> n fact, if all the phone manufacturers standardized on USB, they would also need a 2nd connector for the wired microphones and headsets as the USB port would not accept it.

What an odd statement. My Razr came with a wired mic/headset. Plugs into the same USB port.

Care to rephrase?

Most of this stuff is moving to Bluetooth anyway.

Re:USB?

[jimicus]

Quite common amongst lawmakers, especially recently.

The UK has done something similar with ISPs regarding filesharing.

Re:USB?

[djupedal]

In 2006, China govt. mandated that all mobiles manuf. after a specific 2006 date had to follow a standard charging connection configuration. Works for me :)

Re:USB?

[nschubach]

Why couldn't the dumb device emulate a PC and just agree to give the phone what it wants?

Re:USB?

[MBGMorden]

What I don't get is why they go through the trouble in the first place. You can get a dirt cheap charger for virtually any phone for less than $5 off of ebay (or many other sources - hell I got a car charger for my Nokia a few years back from the friggen dollar store - it worked fine for as long as I had that phone). Those aren't made by the OEM, and no proceeds go to them. The only thing they seem to be doing is forcing me to rebuy the cheapo chargers every time I buy a new phone.

Re:USB?

[Obfuscant]

c) Have some sort of method to signify the presence of a "dumb charger" to the device. THIS IS NOT COVERED BY ANY CURRENT USB SPECIFICATION. As a result it is at best covered by "de facto" standards.

Here's a pretty reasonable "de-facto" standard that says you are talking to a "dumb charger": if there is no data on the data wires and nothing connected to them at the other end, you're talking to a dumb "power only" supply.

Manufacturers could easily adopt this outside the USB spec, since there is nothing preventing them from doing so. They must follow the spec when attached to a real USB source, but if there are no termination resistors on the data lines at the other end, then they aren't talking to a USB source and can do what they want.

In fact, there is already a (pseudo?) standard for how to connect earphones/handsfree hardware using the same mini-USB connection, apparently based on the ability to detect the difference between handsfree hardware and a true USB source.

Most of the devices I now have have mini-USB for charging and communication. The Sansa MP3 player I have has some oddball connector, so it's the odd man out.

BUT, the Sony PRS-505 I have, even though it has a mini-USB connection for data, is, IMNSHO, broken because it will only charge via that connection IF is it connected directly to a primary USB host adapter and can enumerate itself on the bus. No hubs. No "dumb power supplies". Even if the hub is externally powered -- no charge! It will actually DISCHARGE the device completely in such a situation, because it will stay powered on attempting to communicate with the USB host while it is not charging from the USB connection, even if there is no USB host to talk to.

So, count me in the camp that considers mini-USB to be the defacto standard for connecting anything to anything, and that manufacturers that require proprietary cables for simple things should buy a clue.

Re:USB?

[Zackbass]

You sure? My LG Keybo (aka enV2) most definitely has a standard USB micro B. I'm looking at the cable right now.

Re:USB?

[smoker2]

My ex HTC P3300 charged just fine over USB.

As does my P3600. In fact I use a motorola 12v car charger too.

Re:USB?

[Obfuscant]

Being able to go away and only pack one wall wart, plus have the confidence that even if you lose it you can get a local replacement without any hassle at all is about as good as it gets for portable devices.

Belkin even makes a three outlet surge protector with two USB charging ports in a small form factor for travelers. Unfortunately, it appears to support only 120VAC. All the USB wall warts I have otherwise are 100-250VAC units.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same problem with the E70 - It lets me connect which is great, but the USB actually makes it go flatter faster, so I basically have to connect 2 wires and my cute little phone looks like a borg with multiple cables coming out of it! Ick!

Re:USB?

[duguk]

I have a HTC too - the O2 XDA Exec. The mini-usb is awesome, and charges (albeit) slowly on my PC - faster by the plug, probably due to the reasons you mentioned.

As a lot of people have negated to mention (you haven't) - the headphone/microphone ports are *as* important as the charging socket.

My HTC uses a slightly non-standard 3.5mm socket, with 4 pins. A normal set of headphones works great in it, as does 3 pin mono-mic/stereo headphones provided.

Why can't more companies keep to this or a very similar standard? 0.5 amp is plenty to charge with generally, and 3.5mm or even 2.5mm sockets don't use up that much space onboard, do they?

Re:USB?

[duguk]

Most of this stuff is moving to Bluetooth anyway.

Now the only problem is how to charge your Bluetooth headset up? :o)

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont konw, I can plug my htc mogul/touch/diamond/touch pro in to any standard desktop or laptop and get it to charge..... no magic cables just mini usb. No drivers. (and yes it works in linux as well) Heck I can even be in the computers bios and still charge my phone.

Re:USB?

[Johnny2225]

Some of the newer nokias also allow charing over Mini USB. Think the N96 does.

Re:USB?

[QuantumRiff]

But your looking at it from the wrong side. You did not need to purchase two additional cables that cost a few pennies to make, and sell for $10-$25, in addition to car chargers, international chargers, etc. That's why the industry is dragging its feet.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

htc touch pro. mini usb connector (mostly) works for power, headset, video, stereo headset. All with a plug that will take a standard $2 mini usb plug.

Re:USB?

[QuantumRiff]

FYI, the newest Motorola's seem to have moved to a Micro-USB connector. While you can find adapters from mini-USB to Micro-USB, they are about the same price as buying a new cable.

Re:USB?

[vux984]

It's one of those levels of convenience that seems stupid and shallow (and probably is), but it definitely drives me back to Motorola as a customer.

Agreed.

That said Motorola's Razr2 and V750 are both micro USB instead of mini USB. I can't blame them -- a minu usb wouldn't fit on the phone. And you can get an inexpensive adapter. (my razr2 even came with one). But its still a minor annoyance.

That's the problem I see with the EU forcing a standard... how will they balance that with the march of progress?

Re:USB?

[chriso11]

But the point of the article is that the industry DIDN'T offer any uniform solution. How much longer should we have to wait?

Re:USB?

[kybred]

Why couldn't the dumb device emulate a PC and just agree to give the phone what it wants?

You mean have the dumb device emulate a smart device? What a great idea!

Re:USB?

[makomk]

From what I've heard, the Motorola mini-USB chargers aren't compatible with mini-USB ports on non-Motorola phones - supposedly, they can even destroy some other devices. Likewise, a lot of stuff with mini-USB ports used for charging can't actually charge over USB.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, there is a specification from the USB Implementers Forum (USB-IF) for battery charging at up to 1.5A. You can download the specification ('Battery Charging Spec v1.0 Spec and Battery Charging Adopters Agreement') from their website.

You're right that USB charging is pretty badly standardized at the moment though. For instance, neither my iPhone nor my Garmin Nuvi will charge without their special cables with magic resistances. I used to be able to charge an iPod off a USB cable I soldered onto a 5V supply, but not so with the iPhone.

Re:USB?

[Archimonde]

Those are actually Micro-USB connectors.

For example Nokia E71.

You can read more about those types of usb connectors here.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, Firewire was invented precisely for this scenario. It's peer-to-peer, so there's a bit of overhead implementing a hardware host on each device, but that costs a big fat $0.05 per device to do. The benefits far outweigh the drawbacks in that the bus carries 500mA for any device that wants it and can connect to the power pins. Mini-FW connectors lack those power pins in some cases (but not all).

So,
Pros: designed to do this task, cheap to implement, not restrictive and poorly designed like USB, way the hell faster than USB for data transfer (not that anyone seems to care anymore)
Cons: not as cheap as USB, not as universal as USB (dumb people will try to cram the connector into a USB socket, just watch), requires a slightly rarer connector to be "mini" and still carry power (but it's still in the spec)

Re:USB?

[rjstanford]

Yup. Of course, it also carries line out signals as part of it, which means that with a single connection non-digital docks can pull sound from the iPod/iPhone. At some point, this won't be as big of a deal, but right now its still actually pretty useful.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Conspiracy theory time: who owns the cheapo charger sellers?

Re:USB?

[nedlohs]

If nokia does it then everyone will...

Every nokia phone I've had has had a different charger connector that didn't work with the other nokia phones. Every non-nokia phone I've had (OK, with the exception of one sony/erikson one) has used a mini-usb connector for both data and charging.

Re:USB?

[kzieli]

I Hartley agree. To enhance things further my Motorola phone even gets detected by Linux as a standard usb hard drive. No need for any custom synchronization software or windows lockin.

This does not seem to be uniform across models however my Wife bought her phone a little before me and her's is not detected as a removable disk by linux, (has no SD card so this might be related). Also her's does not charge from a standard USB cable while mine does, even though both came with exactly the same power brick.

Re:USB?

[plover]

No, I agree that it would be bad for a government to regulate this as a standard, because most governments have proven to be spectacularly poor with most standards. Strangely enough, this is a place where the United States actually does OK, I think. Rather than try to create industry standards, they will usually pass standards applicable only on federal government purchased products, such as with Defense department contracts or GAO purchases. If any manufacturer wanting to sell 100,000 phones to Uncle Sam is required to use mini-USB for charging and headphones, the chances are good they'll put mini-USB on their consumer models as well, as a part of the economies of scale.

But I do think this is a case where the free market just isn't working. For example, me. I'm buying Motorola products partly because they follow a useful (to me) standard. That's exactly how the free market is supposed to drive decisions like this.

The bigger problem is I'm backing a dying horse. Motorola has been struggling as a mobile phone maker ever since the RAZR lost its dominant seat. Mini-USB connectors aren't enough when the rest of the features are blown away by the iPhone, Android, or Symbian offering, or by some other manufacturer's lowball pricing. And quite frankly, the Motorola apps are pretty awful (except for the MOTOMAGX linux system, and even that has bugs.) There's a giant pile of competing features and attributes, and connector standardization just isn't going to be the deal breaker for most people.

Re:USB?

[Koivuniemi]

My Nokia 6500 classic has only a micro USB connection, which is used for charging, PC connection and handsfree/headphones. Charging the phone is possible using the data cable, and this will also work on any PC without installing drivers. The phone shows up like a memory stick when connected to a PC without the drivers.

Re:USB?

[roc97007]

...Also some Motorola phones, and Blackberry. (My Bold and daughter's Curve will charge with a standard USB cable.) Dunno, other than the high price of cute white interface cables, Apple hasn't changed over to mini-USB. Their current products already charge and communicate over USB, just with a proprietary connector at the device end.

Regarding headphones, I've noticed that the headset that came with my Blackberry (with microphone and mute switch) works in Daughter's Curve and (oddly enough) in her iPod Touch. Here's the really interesting thing -- when used with the Touch, she can get it to do various things by clicking the mute switch quickly one, two, three times. Like start over, go to next song, etc. Pretty amazing for a peripheral not made by Apple.

And yet... Speaking of headphones, if I could go slightly off-topic, if Apple supported A2DP, like Blackberry already does, you wouldn't have to mess with funky, hardwired adapters. It'd just start playing when it got in range of the headset or the radio, as my Bold already does when I get in the car. That's such an elegant solution I'm astonished that Apple didn't think of it first (and patent it).

Re:USB?

[Midnight Thunder]

With what you are saying would this suggest that many USB power plugs simply provide 100mA and provide no support for drawing more? If this is the case, other than selecting those plugs marked as 'iPhone' ready, is there any other way of knowing if a plug is capable of providing the amount of current needed?

The other thing that I find curious is the Sony Ericsson phone I had would only charge if there was a driver for it installed on the Windows PC. I would have thought this was simply a hardware negotiation?

Re:USB?

[damaki]

Yeah, and nokia sells USB charging cords for N95. These are around $25.

Re:USB?

[dov_0]

hasn't Motorola been using mini USB for years?

Re:USB?

[Techman83]

Do you mean like the one pictured on the left here

If so I'm afraid that's a pretty standard lead, that you'll find on most video cameras, some notebooks and many of the off the shelf PVRs I've seen. You can even buy a 4 pin to 6 pin cable without looking too hard (I have several in my box of tricks).

Re:USB?

[dov_0]

Apple will always use proprietary connectors etc. They're worse than Microsoft in regards to copyright and patents. If they'd loosened up 15yrs ago they could have beaten the pc as well as trampled whatever other market they chose to step into.

Re:USB?

[damaki]

My N95 had an USB charger which worked perfectly fine, with no detection. So yes, it already happens.
And if one USB plug is not enough, how about using two? I have already seen USB hubs plugged in two ports on the computer. It's not really a problem.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Although a lot on the budget end a lot have mini or micro usb and a seperate power connector (+ usb charging is not enabled)

Re:USB?

[Aphoxema]

My RIZR charges off USB, and it even connects to the handsfreemobobber through it. When I was picking it out, most of my choices on the T-Mobile site were USB.

Re:USB?

[Patch86]

I've not found that to be true myself. I've used three generations of Motorola phone, a COWON audio player, and a couple of other odd devices with the USB>mini-USB cable that came with my first Motorola phone, and nothings exploded on me yet.

For mains adapters, always cast your eye of it's specs to make sure they match, but I wouldn't have thought this would have been a big problem with USB, being a standardized connector.

Re:USB?

[Ironsides]

Is it a standard USB port following the USB standard or has it been modified in some way to also provide analog audio? Last I checked, USB was a digital connector only and headsets required an analog signal. Unless they decided to get expensive and sell you a USB microphone/headphone.

Re:USB?

[Muros]

Quite common amongst lawmakers, especially recently.

The UK has done something similar with ISPs regarding filesharing.

The UK has demanded a standard set of filesharing protocols? News to me.

Re:USB?

[ottothecow]

They have definately made strides in the right direction but they are still holding on to a desire for the replacement charger revenue...

My razr can only charge from its own charger or off-brand chargers designed for it. If I try to use my blackberry charger with the exact same usb plug, it says something about it being an invalid charger. Both phones charge just fine from a USB port so they are definately using standard voltages. The razr however needs a driver to be installed on windows before it will actually charge (sucks if you don't have admin rights) but this may be a windows issue rather than motorola.

Re:USB?

[Ilgaz]

Nokia always used 2 standards before totally moving to USB on new models. Why 2? Because the older one was too big for new fashion small phones so they used 1 smaller form factor. On the other hand, besides their greedy charger prices, Nokia always used a very standard charger compared to others. It is just 3.7 Volt which seems similar to battery voltage.

See Samsung and Sony older models about the real evil stuff especially Samsung. At least Sony had decency to keep one charger format.

I think they already stabilized on USB except Apple but Apple has a very nice excuse as iPod connector is open and really popular and USB based anyway.

Re:USB?

[Ilgaz]

Do you have clue about how many iPods exist on planet? Nearing what? Hundreds of millions? Why should they use plain USB when they have a device combining an ipod and some kind of smart phone? If they came up with plain USB connector or some kind of iPhone connector, that would be really evil considering amount of iPod connector enabled devices (even cars!) people already have.

I think the spec is open anyway.

Re:USB?

[Hognoxious]

Despite what it's called, is it a standard USB? I have an E71 and I don't have anything else that has the same fitting.

And it doesn't charge via that, rather by a very small (almost a needle) coaxial.

And it has a non standard headset fitting.

So a half out of 3 when it comes to standardization.

Re:USB?

[dov_0]

Do you have clue about how many iPods exist on planet?

You actually prove my point. One of the few times Apple loosened up (by licensing a spec to 3rd party manufacturers), the basic quality and design of the product (here the ipod) is allowed to tramp all over the competition. Imagine what could have been in the sphere of personal computing if they'd allowed Mac clones to continue...

Re:USB?

[querist]

The Mini-USB has been the standard in China for a while now according to my friends who live there. It's really nice, because it makes finding chargers and ear-phone adapters easy, unlike here in the USA.

Re:USB?

[Hognoxious]

The empty set is still a set.

Re:USB?

[Wyatt Earp]

Like the USB they standardized on back in 98? Or Firewire?

Re:USB?

[Hognoxious]

In at least a mild defense of apple, they use their connector for a variety of things, not just data. That connector is used for analog audio, analog video and for accessories.

I'm not a messy eater, I just use my fork as a soup spoon, bottle opener and tire iron.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, let the free market decide whether the handset manufacturers have to adhere to standards. If it doesn't work out, someone else can just start a new, better alternative cell phone company.

What's that you say? I can't start my own cell phone company unless I pay some cell phone carrier company millions of dollars? All of the cell phone carriers are government regulated monopolies?

That is what is wrong with the mobile market today.

Re:USB?

[p0tat03]

Blah blah blah. Yes, chargers are expensive, but there's no need to get into the "pennies to make" argument, because you simply haven't given anything to substantiate that argument.

I've worked in manufacturing, and for a while was in charge of plastics. Consumer-grade plastics are *really expensive* to mould, and that rubbery stuff that cables are made from? Even more so. So yeah, a charger might not be a bargain at $30 a pop, but it cost a lot more than "a few pennies" to make.

Re:USB?

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Have some sort of method to signify the presence of a "dumb charger" to the device. THIS IS NOT COVERED BY ANY CURRENT USB SPECIFICATION

You mean, like, the Battery Charging Spec v1.0 Spec and Battery Charging Adopters Agreement.

USB-IF solved this one in 2007.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

"we can do this the easy way or the hard way, agree a standard among yourselves or we will come up with one that nobody likes and costs too much and ram it down your throat" (like the IEC309 high power connectors--big, clumsy, and cost too much!)

Re:USB?

[Supergibbs]

Please mod parent up "insightful", this is my biggest problem with Apple. They are just as bad if not worse at locking out competition than MS, but for some reason they have a crapload of support.

Re:USB?

[digitalchinky]

It's not flamebait you retards, it's a "JOKE", laugh already. I live in Asia.

Re:USB?

[plover]

What's that you say? I can't start my own cell phone company unless I pay some cell phone carrier company millions of dollars?

Actually, no, that's not what I say at all, nor is anyone else saying it. I'm not exactly sure what you're trolling for here, but you're perfectly free to manufacture all the cell phones you want. You'll have to pay the government for an FCC certification since you're selling RF transmitters, and you will likely have to license a few patents, but other than that knock yourself out. You can make and sell phones, and the carriers cannot stop people from using them on their networks.

You don't have to pay a cell phone carrier a single dime for the privilege.

However, you might not sell too many if you don't enter into some kind of agreement with a carrier to stock them in their retail stores. But that's a problem common to making any product. For example, you could make completely unlicensed and unregulated leather cell phone pouches, but that doesn't mean AT&T stores are going to carry them in stock without a contract.

Re:USB?

[plover]

Nope. The cell phone industry doesn't make money on wall warts. Only the wall wart industry makes money on wall warts. If the cell phone manufacturers had their way, mini-USB chargers would be so ubiquitous they wouldn't have to include them with the phones, saving them a few dollars per unit in costs and cutting their shipping rates in half.

Anything that a manufacturer has to buy from someone else that they don't make themselves usually costs more than they're worth. They're a necessary evil, not a profit center.

The aftermarket wall wart business is very lucrative, however. Replacement chargers go for stupid high amounts. And they stand to make more profit from a wider variety of chargers. But they are tiny businesses that have no leverage. They have no say in what standards the cell phone manufacturers will use.

I think Motorola made their decision just to keep costs down. If they can include the exact same charger with every item in their product line, their inventory and manufacturing costs for chargers drops significantly. It just happens to work to our benefit, too.

Re:USB?

[demonlapin]

Thank you for pointing this out, as it resolves a question I've had for quite a while - my old iPod nano has a totally dead battery, and I couldn't figure out why it went into reboot loops when plugged into USB but ran just fine when plugged into a car charger that used the Firewire lines. (I've ordered a replacement battery.) Damn Apple and their specification-following ways!

Re:USB?

[SoCalChris]

So why can I buy one from an overseas seller for less than $3, with free shipping? Are they taking a loss on each one?

Not only did the last charger I bought cost 1/10th the price of one bought from the Verizon store, but it's build quality actually felt better than the name brand one. So far, it's lasted longer also.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

5 cellphones in 3 years?. man when are they going to start the you're a waste of space and oxygen tax.

Re:USB?

[danger zone]

In China, USB charging has been mandatory for new mobile phones since 2007. By and large, phones will also sync using standard USB cables. However, I have noticed that my smartphone will actually drain the battery when "charging" if I have WiFi turned on... I guess there's just too much power drain when powering a GSM, bluetooth, and WiFi radio simultaneously.

http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199800238&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS

--s

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you could just look at the USB Battery charging spec.... http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_0.zip

Re:USB?

[techdojo]

I don't know that legislation is the answer, but you are SO RIGHT about mini-USB. At least my Nokia phones all had the same charger between models OR a mini-USB jack. I have one Samsung phone and my wife has another. Instead of using mini-USB, they use some crack-whore flat-style connector. The kicker? THEY'RE DIFFERENT BY 1/16th OF AN INCH.

You look into the connector and see an array of 10 to 20 pins. Mysteriously enough, there are FOUR on the other end. EVERY TIME. It doesn't matter if you put 100 pins on the end of the cable, it will STILL BE FOUR ON THE OTHER SIDE. If there is circuitry you have to put in the cable that modifies the signal and splits it out, you need to fit that in the phone itself.

AGH!

_______________________________
http://techdojo.org/

Re:USB?

[DavidD_CA]

You mean like USB and, I dunno... maybe mini-USB?

.. or did you mean micro-USB, or mini-USB, or mini-B, or micro-B, or AB ...

While the number of Micro-USB components I have is a pretty good percentage, it's still far from "universal" as far as the connector itself is concerned.

And even when they fit, they still might not work. I can't take my laptop and plug it into a Motorola phone to charge it, but that works fine with my HTC phone. Not to mention the proprietary USB connections that HTC has for audio/video.

Oh, and USB 3 is coming out, too.

Re:USB?

[tazermaceface]

I am so tired of hearing this from Motorola phone owners/groupies.

I've had several Motorola phones (and headsets), and I've used the same Motorola cable to connect said hardware for power or data transfers. I have the Motorola cable because any other standard USB cables I've used have not worked for power or data with the US V360, EU V360, or US W490 model phones.
I remember how betrayed I felt when I discovered this little 'feature' on my phones, not to mention the other non-standard standard features.

Plover, why don't you try your amazing array of Motorola gear with a non-Motorola cable and tell me if it works.

Re:USB?

[frieko]

I was in the Verizon store the other day. Looks like most/all the new phones are USB. My LG env2 syncs and/or charges with a $3 generic cable.

Re:USB?

[shawb]

My guess would be that a significant portion of that battery drain comes from bluetooth. My phone can go about a day and a half with normal use without recharging. When bluetooth is on, the battery drains to the point that the phone turns off in 3-4 hours with no use.

Re:USB?

[Builder]

Are you batshit insane or something? The same manufacturers that make the iPod make all the other shit that is lost in the bottom end of the MP3 player market.

The iPod won because of the design of the device and the ease of integration with iTunes. May geeks may hate iTunes but every single regular user I've spoken to (construction workers, dinner ladies, etc.) love the fact that they just plug it in and their play list appears. They don't like having to drag and drop.

Besides which, Apple have pretty much all of their products made by 3rd party manufacturers. But as with the iPod, the design is done by Apple.

Do you honestly think that any of Apple's manufacturing partners have any input into the actual design of the product? Do you really think a high-volume fab in China made any improvements to the design supplied by Apple? If not, what value do you think they added here that makes the iPod special ?

Re:USB?

[Signius]

Why don't you ask him and let us know if you get a sensible reply. Contact him at tony.graziano@eicta.org

Re:USB?

[Archimonde]

Despite what it's called, is it a standard USB?

Wikipedia says so though.

I've got 6500classic and that is the only connector it has. So the transformer has the same connector for charging and data cable has the same connector. But contrary to E71 it does charge via this data cable too. I don't know if E71 would charge if you were to connect this transformer with micro-usb connector though.

I'm quite puzzled though because e71 is a newer model than the 6500c but the former has the older charger (AC-5) while the latter has newer (AC-6). Maybe they wanted to preserve some kind of backward compatibility as this is business phone and people probably already have car chargers with those round connectors.

As for the small (2.5mm?) audio connector, that completely sucks I know because I have first gen iphone which has recessed audio jack so only apple headphones go in. Sure there is an adapter to buy but I can't find it anywhere. So I'm in the same situation as with my nokia. Usb connector ->nokia headphones, iphone v1 -> apple headphones. I hate those non standard things (but which are not better in any way).

Re:USB?

[Fjan11]

(mini-)USB is not very good as a general consumer standard. It only provides 5v, it is a relatively expensive plug (many pins) and it is hard to plug in for older people.

There is a much better idea to have a plug with one extra pin that determines the voltage, that would cover 80% of all devices instead of just phones. It's called UniCharge and consumer electronics companies have been looking at it for years but balked at the switchover cost. Cost after switchover would be much lower because you can simply leave the adapter out of the box and sell them separately just like they do with batteries.

A bit of a push from a government might actually help here.

Re:USB?

[jacquesm]

there is a blonde joke in there somewhere...

Re:USB?

[bentcd]

So why can I buy one from an overseas seller for less than $3, with free shipping?

They stole it? :-)

Re:USB?

[bentcd]

It's one of those levels of convenience that seems stupid and shallow(...)

Unfortunately, compatibility is much underrated. Compatibility makes everything easier for everyone. It is certainly neither stupid nor shallow.

Re:USB?

[RichiH]

> If the cell phone manufacturers had their way, mini-USB chargers would be so ubiquitous they wouldn't have to include them with the phones, saving them a few dollars per unit in costs and cutting their shipping rates in half.

If only those poor sods were not forced, at gun point, to not use USB in their _own designs_ by the evil overlords of the wall wart industry.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never Going to Happen?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/17/universal-mobile-phone-charger

Re:USB?

[RMH101]

WTF has Firewire got to do with anti-piracy? No DRM there.
FW cables and connectors come in two sorts: the full-fat, standard 6 pin one (4 pins for data, two for power) and small form-factor 4 pin (4 for data, no power). The latter is designed for use where space is an issue - e.g. on handheld camcorders. They are electrically compatible: i.e. cables with 4 pin on one end an 6 pin on the other are commonplace - you'll have got one in the box with your camcorder. (Passive) adaptors are freely available.

Re:USB?

[RMH101]

As did my P3300. A year or two back, when I was actively involved in xda-developers.com I do recall certain firmware revisions where charging was *not* supported when connected to a dumb charger like a car cigarette lighter->USB lead. The software in the phone does make a difference as to whether it wants the "dumb pin" connected.

Re:USB?

[RMH101]

And HTC also have a connector that's very similar, but not identical to, mini-USB. This allows both a standard mini USB cable to sync and charge, and also a not-so-standard version with an extra couple of pins to fit which covers headset functionality.

Re:USB?

[RMH101]

I'd put money on the reason Apple have done this (and the charging "OK" signal for the iPhone 3G is not just a wired data pin, it's quite a complex spec of resistance over multiple pins) is because the Macbook Air would spontaneously catch fire or something if you tried to pull >500ma out of its sockets...

Re:USB?

[aliquis]

I read earlier on dapreview or anythingbutipod how Sony asked upwards $100 or something such for a charger cable for their NWZ-series of mp3 players... Better not lose that one ...

And yes, it may be USB to whateversonyconnection but it still cost a shitload.

If it had been regular USB it would cost less than 10 dollars, and most people would already have a couple.

I assume "really expensive" is / metric ton or kg and not per 5 gram plastic mold?

Re:USB?

[dave420]

I think this is exactly where the government should step in - it's just another way for handset manufacturers to make money, at the expense of the public (as in we don't actually get any added value - just a bunch of different chargers).

Re:USB?

[Elektroschock]

not for my phone

Re:USB?

[aliquis]

Which as we all know is the same with speaker cables, sure they may actually look somewhat better or have more exotic materials but still the material cost vs price of the cable will be rather fucked up as soon as you leave the budget cables. And it's rather useless to.

Same with runner shoes to, cost to the worker is probably less than $1, guess that may not include materials but it's not like there will be a huge difference in manufacturing a shoe for $50 or $300. And the workers probably get less than 1/100 in all cases

Re:USB?

[aliquis]

Except, like, you know, when the accessory maker also sell the chargers / cables, which most often is the case.

Look at the comments on amazon for the magsafe loader for Apple Macbook / Macbook Pros, someone had replaced theirs 8 times in a year. Sure it may suck and get lose but since it's Apple the design is patented so good luck not getting a new one from them, again, and again, and ...

The cable at the wall end is replaceable so you can switch to different connectors, the cable part to the laptop is not so you need to get a new charger and not only the last piece of cable to.
But then again, you have probably scratched up the precious plastic piece which was the side of the charger and had an embossed Apple logo so better replace it for style anyway ...

Re:USB?

[commodore64_love]

Okay.

Now show me where I can buy a 4-prong Firewire-equipped HDTV or Cable tuner box that will run video into my D-VHS unit.

Re:USB?

[AmericanInKiev]

Certainly mini USB for power - indeed I believe My phone has that.

For headphones/microphone, a phono plug of some dimension is already standard.

Fair to note that Apple exposes every trace of its circuit board out the bottom - which while being overkill, has also made it trivial to build feature-enhancing cradles with dumb signals like audio and power, while also providing for smart features like in-dash display, and steering wheel buttons.

One could reasonably propose the apple standard as the long form, and USB as the short from.
The EU commissioner would probably tolerate two form factors, particularly if one was required (ie mini USB).
A nice plug feature would be expandability on a simple standard - ie a miniUSB, but with extra pins somewhere that allowed for dumb signals.

Re:USB?

[commodore64_love]

>>>WTF has Firewire got to do with anti-piracy?

I don't know. I didn't say it was a logical choice, after all, we are talking about politicians here. Nevertheless, effective antipiracy or not, they mandated that only Firewire may be used. The D-VHS won't record high-def from any other cable.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the cell phone manufacturers had their way, mini-USB chargers would be so ubiquitous they wouldn't have to include them with the phones, saving them a few dollars per unit in costs and cutting their shipping rates in half.

...so, they largely aren't doing it what? What? They can't afford licensing costs of mini-usb adapters? USB 2 doesn't have high enough power ratings?

You come out and make an unsupported statement about what the cell phone makers want to do, and then show no reason at all why they haven't been doing for years, even though they are the ones making the decision.

That's not even decent rhetoric, much less a logical argument.

Re:USB?

[plover]

Plover, why don't you try your amazing array of Motorola gear with a non-Motorola cable and tell me if it works.

They work just fine. I've never bought or owned an actual Motorola mini-USB cable. I've been using the mini-USB cables that came with other equipment, including a Canon camera cable and a cable that connected a cheap 12-in-one SD/CF card reader. I do use the Motorola wall warts, though, and aftermarket car chargers that specifically said "Motorola" on the package, so I don't know if they'll recharge without a special power supply.

This has been true and has worked for me on each of these phones: RAZR V3, V550, KRZR K1, and ROKR Z6, plus another model I bought for my mom to replace her stolen V550 that I can't remember. (By the way, I thought it obvious that these phones and all that gear are not just for me but for the rest of my family, too. Only two of these were personally mine. I just plug the others into my computer and upload ring tones and pictures for the rest of them, and tweak the occasional SEEMs. :-)

Where I've had no end of problems has been with finding Windows XP drivers, and getting the phone to talk to the computer without the phone crashing and burning. It was really awful for the first year or two, but over time new releases of drivers seem to have improved the stability of the connection. On my Vista machine they seem to work pretty reliably. But I've never blamed the cables, as they work fine on the other peripherals.

Re:USB?

[plover]

I'm saying that mini-USB wall warts cost them in terms of purchasing them from a supplier, and cost them in terms of shipping weight, extra assembly steps, and packaging. Those costs are passed on to the end user, but do not make them money because they have to pay for them. The phone would be cheaper to make if they didn't have to include the wall warts, increasing their profit margins.

But because there is no standard for chargers, they are forced to include one with every phone. Customers today would scream bloody murder if they shipped phones without chargers.

If a standard does eventually come around for chargers, some day it may be assumed that every household will already have one or more, so they'll be able to sell phones or other devices without chargers. It's also likely that if that day ever comes they'll keep phone prices the same as they are now, but they'll add a premium for phones that include chargers.

Does that make what I was trying to say any clearer?

Re:USB?

[hedwards]

So why is it that Motorola uses a proprietary cable? You can make a USB charging cable, but if you want it to charge with anything other than their charger you have to alter the cable. It definitely can be done, but it's not a standard mini-USB charger.

Re:USB?

[hedwards]

That's not true, it's because Motorola uses a non-standard USB cable. I think the official line is so that they can connect the head set up to the port, but you have to physically mod a cable if that's what you want to do.

The _only_ thing standard about those is the fact that they have the mini-USB jack.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, so because the "free market" (let's just forget for a second that cell phone manufacturing is not a free market) does not serve YOUR needs, therefore it must "not be working." There is no chance, of course, that it's simply not profitable to serve YOUR specific needs.

Re:USB?

[Techman83]

Not knowing what D-VHS unit your using I couldn't tell ya, at the end of the day it really depends on the cable box and the D-VHS unit. Say combine this, this and for $3 probably one of these you then end up with a story like this (Which was in August 2005, Knoppmyth has since matured significantly!)

And if you want a bastardised 4 pin cable, then here is your answer. And if your D-VHS unit or Cable box doesn't support what you want to do, then I'd hazard a guess that the cable is probably the least of your worries ;)

Re:USB?

[plover]

Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was implying the free market isn't working "to create a standard."

I'll go pray 10 "Hail Ayn Rand, full of Objectivism"s now. Will that make it better?

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

d) ignore the USB spec and pull 500ma whatever the host does.

That's pretty hard when the hosts cuts the power, which is standard when a USB device draws too much current.

Re:USB?

[smoker2]

Now the only problem is how to charge your Bluetooth headset up? :o)

My Motorola HT820 bluetooth headphones charge through a mini/micro usb port. Looks like they're no longer available (in the UK) but the S9 is a newer version.

Re:USB?

[deltav9]

This is quite true, I am presently designing one of these universal charger, following USB Battery charging specification, and guess what, most phone don't even comply with the so call "dedicated charger" most of them won't even charge with the 2 15K to ground. It is a nightmare design. You don't happen to have any experience with this?

Re:USB?

[plover]

Correction: I just remembered the V550 did not have a standard connector, so I did not have a cable for it. I had to set the ring tones and pictures via Bluetooth.

Re:USB?

[Andy Dodd]

Then that cooling pad violates the USB specification.

Re:USB?

[Andy Dodd]

Clarify. Just fine when connected to a PC?

Just fine when connected to a "dumb charger" that did NOT have the extra pin on the miniUSB plug grounded to signify a dumb charger?

Nearly all HTC devices use the same "de facto" dumb charger signaling standard as Motorola/Blackberry, as I said in my previous post. It is also the same charging scheme used by TomTom and Holux for their GPS units.

Re:USB?

[petermgreen]

Afaict the vast majority of hosts just have dumb overload protection set at just over 500ma not fancy protection against a device drawing more than it has permission for..

Re:USB?

[eugene ts wong]

I bought a N96 from China, in Sep. or Oct. 2008. The Mini USB doesn't charge, as far as I can tell. I have a seperate hole in the phone for charging. It can be connected to the computer's USB port, but the phone's Mini USB port doesn't allow charging as far as I can tell.

By the way, my N96 doesn't have Wifi. I don't think any of the Chinese Nokia phones do. Can somebody confirm this?

Re:USB?

[duguk]

It was a joke :o) - Mine (and most I've seen) charge via USB already. Guess they don't need as much power.

Re:USB?

[TravellingMan]

Yes, I found that problem, I also have a Mitac Mio A701 which uses the microUSB for both charging and connecting to PC, and it will charge when connected to the PC

Re:USB?

[TravellingMan]

Well the USB charger that I use for my Mitac Mio will not charge MY N95-2, unless Nokia are using different pins for the charging, and if that's the case then maybe things should be standardised. I just remembered when I had a RAZR that wouldn't charge using the Mitac charger, so maybe it is the MITAC one that is not standard. :-(

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Regulate the bastards.
After Nokia changing their adapter for the third time, and I can not see how this benefits the consumer. But can easily see how this increases adapter sales.

Re:USB?

[pilkch]

Why don't we vote with our feet and only buy mini-usb phones, duh.

Re:USB?

[Tacvek]

Most of the new HTC phones use ExtUSB for the headphones. The older ones use a four contact version of the standard 3.5 mm headphone jack, where that forth pin is used for the microphone (if a compatible headset is used, for regular headphones the microphone feature obviously does not work.). MY understanding is that the 2.5 mm headsets are highly standardized, but I'd need to check the wiki to confirm that.

Re:USB?

[Tacvek]

Having worked with such devices, I can tell you that the 2.5 or 3.5 mm jacks do take up significantly more device space (especial pcb surface area) than flat connectors like usb mini-b, which is (part of the reason) why many devices do funny things with the headphone jacks. Nintendo used the power jackl to double as the headphone port on the GBA-SP. Many phone companies are doing the same thing, but since the USB port is often the charging port that is what they mess with.

I personally don't find the headphone port nearly as important as the power port, so the use of the extusb connector does not bother me too much. (Although having a sperate port would not bother me any either, and it can be nice in the rare event I want to use wired headphones).

Many people use Bluetooth headsets or no headsets at all, similarly, many handsfree kits are using Bluetooth now. So the way the manufactures see it, very few people would miss the headphone jack. (Not to say that they are right, but that seems to be a good chunk of the logic behind it.)

I've also come to the conclusion that 1 non-standard connector is still less expensive than 2 standard connectors, which gives manufactures even more incentive to supply only one nonstandard port for all of charging/data/headsets.

Re:USB?

[compro01]

And apparently so do both of my laptops for allowing it.

Re:USB?

[roc97007]

One of us is not understanding the original topic. My understanding is that we're talking about the connector on the device end, not the connector that plugs into the computer (or the wall, for that matter). The issue is charging and/or data cables, and in some cases headphone/microphone cables that have proprietary connectors, will not interplay, and can only be purchased from the device manufacturer at huge markup. The iPod/iPhone products fall into this category because, despite connecting to vanilla USB or Firewire ports, they have a proprietary connector on the other end, which means the cable will always be cute and stylish and contribute to the overall visual user experience, and you'll never have to see a potentially ugly (but much cheaper) third-party cable hanging off your iPod like a malignant growth. Or something.

Besides that, yes, all ipods will plug into usb or firewire, but some refuse to charge on firewire, and some refuse to charge on usb, depending on the generation of the unit, and I seem to recall that the Touch won't even sync on Firewire, so even that level of compatibility is not ubiquitous amongst Apple devices. So, for instance, I standardized on stylish white Firewire cables for the 3rd generation ipod, and then had to buy stylish white USB cables to do the same thing for the Classic and Touch.

Parenthetically, does anyone remember the Apple "USB" (quotes deliberate) keyboards that had an extra ridge on one side of the otherwise standard USB connector, so that only stylish white Apple USB cables would fit?

Re:USB?

[petermgreen]

hmm I always throught the things were quite a sensible design. Cable to cable coupling is neat and inline, the cover doubles up nicely as a retaining clip so they don't get pulled out by accident and they can deliver reliable and safe service in a wet and rough environment.

Also I wasn't aware of them being rammed down companies throats. I would be quite interested if you have evidence that they were.

There's nothing more frustrating...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then going to your friends house, realising your phone is flat, and they don't have a charger to fit your phone. Mind you, most phones (that I've come into contact with) use the standard mini-USB as their charger input. The only problem with this, is when you get devices that use a handsfree hit that use their own plug, for example on the HTC Touch Dual. The handsfree kit uses a slightly modified version of the standard mini-USB (square edge on one top corner instead of both slanted in).

So what I'm trying to get at, is let's just use mini-USB for charging and syncing, and the standard headphone jack for audio. This allows hooking you PDA for a presentation to the PA system in the theatre, mind you, why the hell are you using your PDA in the first place?

Damn, after that last line, -waits for redundant score-

Sounds good to me

[VampireByte]

Any reason why we (consumers) should be against this?

Re:Sounds good to me

[eln]

Any reason why we (consumers) should be against this?

Well, since this is the government, they'll inevitably come up with a standard where the connector is 6 inches long and 3 inches wide, has 874 tiny easily breakable pins, and requires a power brick that weighs 20 pounds. Also, the chargers will cost $438,000.

Re:Sounds good to me

[CannonballHead]

I think so. It's just another instance of regulations of consumer products. It does generally sound good, but what about regulation of other parts of the phone? I see no reason why I can't make a phone that uses whatever charger I want (presuming I'm a cell phone company). So what if nobody uses it, that's not the government's business. Or, in this case, the EU.

Next, let's regulate how much bandwidth any given individual can use at any given period of time. It will make it more convenient for anyone sharing the bandwidth. Or, more similar to this case, let's limit the amount of bandwidth a company can *give* so that it levels the playing field, creates more competition, etc. That way, small company can offer just as good an offer as big company! Better competition! All we need is the EU to regulate that, and boom! Hm. Because we have seen how effective the EU is at stuff like that (like... regulating browser packaging?)

Re:Sounds good to me

[Vectronic]

Currently, no...

And for the foreseeable future, probably not as well, however, I think that any "Standard" that is implimented should have a lifespan, of say no more than 5 years, where it gets brought up again for evaluation, just incase there is a new developement/technology that could be more useful (smaller, faster, more durable)

Although, as far as wires go, mini/micro USB is probably all that will ever be needed, until both charging and updating can be done internally, or wirelessly.

Re:Sounds good to me

[gandhi_2]

Because when you give your government precedent to expand beyond it's social contract of protecting life, liberty and property...even on your behalf, then you give it permission to expand to ALL facets of life. It isn't a government's proper role to tell a private company what features it can/cannot sell. If company A finds a market demand for connector X, company A is free to build for that market. It is free not to. It's what we call a free market, which is to say, the market system of free people. Otherwise, you are trading freedom for convenience.

Re:Sounds good to me

[0racle]

I see no reason why I can't make a phone that uses whatever charger I want

You (as the company) think this way because you see a charger that only you can provide as a method to increase your profits with no drawbacks. However everyone else (the government, 'society') has to deal with things like waste, or put another way the drawbacks of the companies wasteful choices.

There are many things that the government shouldn't stick their noses into, but there are also things they should because the average person and company can not see past the end of their own nose. Reducing unnecessary waste is something that would have to be regulated as the companies producing all these redundant parts see no need to reduce the amount of waste they produce on their own.

Re:Sounds good to me

[icedivr]

Sure... it stifles innovation. What if a manufacturer wants to create a phone with new features or hardware expandability? Do they have to include USB atop the bus they've already created for their hardware? The connector on the bottom of the iPhone carries power and USB data, as well as audio and video out, Firewire and lines to identify the type of cradle it's in.

Someone considering a new phone really ought to factor in the cost of required accessories before making a purchasing decision.

Re:Sounds good to me

[cyber-vandal]

So what you're basically saying is that consumers should continue to be ripped off because it's the right of the manufacturer to do so?

Re:Sounds good to me

[tvjunky]

[...] Because we have seen how effective the EU is at stuff like that (like... regulating browser packaging?)

I could be mistaken, but I think that the US legal system failed to deliver more than a firm slap on the wrist for microsoft, while we have indeed not yet seen how effective the EU is at stuff like that.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

10 years from now, when the technology landscape has changed, do you really want it to require government intervention before the cellphone manufacturers can switch away from previously mandated, obsolete technology?

Re:Sounds good to me

[cfulmer]

No drawbacks? How about people don't buy your product because you have some screwy power adapter?

The cell-phone market is hypercompetitive -- there are dozen and dozens of cellphones out there with all sorts of choice. If you don't like how one phone charges, nobody's forcing you to buy it -- pick a different one.

This is one market where you don't really need to worry about standards evolving -- the cell phone market has standards for applications, wireless headsets, configuration, telephone communications, etc..... Why does anybody think they won't direct their energies to standardizing chargers? (It could be that they've been focusing their efforts on things that consumers care about a lot more).

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be more reasonable to pass legislation which would require all government purchases of cell phones to be of models which include standard charger X. This would provide incentive to the market to produce a standard charger, and save the government (in the form of any piblic servant with a state or federally funded cell phone) the additional cost of maintaining so many different types of chargers.

The government can and should regulate what they purchase with tax payer money, even if it would perhaps be unreasonable to force a particular charger upon the entire market.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Spy Hunter]

Different phones have different requirements for things like voltages, amperages, connector size, and other features of a charging interface. Forcing a standard would reduce the number of power bricks a consumer would need, but it would constrain phone designers as well. Phones with unusual requirements would be basically outlawed. Imagine a great new battery technology requiring high voltage to charge; it wouldn't work with the government standard low-voltage connector. Or imagine a phone with wireless charging; it would be forced to also include all the hardware for a government standard connector, increasing size and price and ruining aesthetics. Or how about a waterproof phone, or a super-rugged phone? It's quite unlikely the government standard connector would be ideal for waterproofing or functioning with dirt rubbed into it or whatever. What about a tiny wristwatch phone? The government connector would likely be too large. How about a netbook with phone features? The government connector wouldn't provide enough juice.

I'm sure it's easy for you to dismiss every example I gave above, saying "oh, the regulation will include a special case to fix that problem." These examples are things I came up with in 5 minutes of thought, but the real problem with regulations like these are the things nobody has thought of yet. Every market regulation is a constraint on future innovation. We can't know yet why the government standard connector might be bad, because we don't know how technology and the cell phone market will evolve in the future. Innovation moves fast and the government is far too slow to keep up.

Re:Sounds good to me

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It's just another instance of regulations of consumer products. It does generally sound good, but what about regulation of other parts of the phone?

We already have tons of regulations about other parts of the the phone from the standard phone jack to 911 capabilities to FCC allowed frequencies. It seems to be helping.

I see no reason why I can't make a phone that uses whatever charger I want (presuming I'm a cell phone company).

It's that parenthetical that makes me disagree with you. As an individual you have the natural right to make any kind of phone you want. You could even argue that as a small business you can apply those individual rights... provided you don't take advantage of any of the benefits the government confers to small businesses. As a corporation, however, you have no rights beyond what are granted by the government for the good of the people. As a corporation, if you're not benefitting the people when we see fit to regulate you, what incentive to we have to allow you patents, trademarks or copyrights? What incentive do we even have to have the police investigate if people break into your office and take your corporation's possessions? How does spending those tax dollars and inconveniencing citizens help us at all?

Next, let's regulate how much bandwidth any given individual can use at any given period of time.

You see, there you're touching upon individual rights. As a person, you have unalienable, natural rights the government is restricted from messing with. Businesses, especially corporations, however, are not individuals (no matter if they manage to get laws granting them some similar rights).

Or, more similar to this case, let's limit the amount of bandwidth a company can *give* so that it levels the playing field, creates more competition, etc. That way, small company can offer just as good an offer as big company! Better competition!

I think you've completely failed to understand how competition is beneficial and why it is often touted as important to the economy.

All we need is the EU to regulate that, and boom!

In principal, there is no reason the EU should not regulate how much bandwidth a company can offer, assuming they see benefit to society in so doing. I just don't see such benefit and I doubt they do either.

Because we have seen how effective the EU is at stuff like that (like... regulating browser packaging?)

Actually, the EU's competition laws have done a great deal of good in recent years and is a heck of a lot nicer to get a cell phone and plan there than in the states. Your comment about regulating "browser packaging" however makes me lose what little confidence I had in your ability to understand economics or law. The EU has never regulated browser packaging nor proposed to do so. The EU is prosecuting a criminal where as part of the punishment that criminal may or may not be ordered to change how it packages its browser. That's "browser packaging" regulation in the same way that sending a thief to prison is "housing regulations".

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Then just deliver an adapter that can fit that awesome output of the iPhone and where you can plug in your general charger/data cable. The other cables can still be proprietary then, as long as the standard charger can be connected (with an adapter).

Re:Sounds good to me

[PitaBred]

We regulate what voltage and frequency electricity goes to homes at, the formulation of gasoline, the size of roads and tunnels and so on for a reason. For interoperability, and to make the market MORE competitive. Charging devices should be a similar boat... right now we have little islands of compatibility and competition, but there's a large cost to switching to a different phone because you'll have to re-buy all your accessories. The companies profit, the consumer loses out for no good reason other than pocket-lining.

Re:Sounds good to me

[PitaBred]

You don't have a free market without complete information. Do you know ahead of time that the phone you're buying is incompatible with all your current accessories? If they don't make that clear to consumers, then it's a FAILURE of the free market. If it happens too often, then regulation is quite reasonable. Or do you not like having the government regulate that power coming to your house be compatible with almost any electric device you can buy, and in side cases (stoves, dryers, etc.) it's clearly marked and understood to be different?

Re:Sounds good to me

[agm]

Yes. This is removing the freedom of private companies. It's not a primary function of government ensure we can easily charge our mobile phones.

Re:Sounds good to me

[poetmatt]

So how again is someone unable to add other connectors to a phone for other features? What magic "stifling" of innovation occur?

The G1 carries power, data and audio as well. If they needed a connector for something else they'd build it in. It's not like cameras for example have only one connector. They have like 4, 1 being supplied.

Re:Sounds good to me

[El Cabri]

Government regulation is like poison. Most of the time you're better off without taking any and then you find yourself in circumstances where it's actually better for you to take some and you call it chemo.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

I see no reason why I can't make a phone that uses whatever charger I want (presuming I'm a cell phone company). So what if nobody uses it, that's not the government's business.

I see on reason why I shouldn't be able to advertise my new smartphone, then sell boxes containing nothing but small rocks. So what if people are disappointed that their new phone doesn't work the way they expected? It's none of the government's business, with their silly 'truth in advertising' regulations.

Seriously: sometimes it's useful for the government to define rules of the marketplace, so that competition can act in full. The natural state of a marketplace without regulation is not always a free market.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Once a large part of the world mandates standard connectors - the rest of the world will eventually inherit this decision. The only question is will it be designed by Europeans or not.

Re:Sounds good to me

[rjstanford]

Don't forget to make sure that - just like the stupid 4 pin USB standard - its unidirectional but in such a format that it will encourage symmetrical external cases on the connectors. That's always fun.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Kamineko]

A lead hedgehog?

Re:Sounds good to me

[damaki]

Wake up, the average Joe doesn't care. If he loses the dedicated charger, he will buy another one.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Shihar]

You probably don't want the government setting the standard. Governments are notoriously bad at setting standards. That said, it doesn't mean that the government doesn't have a role in setting the standard.

The best thing governments can do is threaten to set a standard if industry doesn't do it themselves. Industry has an incentive to make crappy non-standard devices. By threatening to pick a standard if they don't pick one themselves, you get the best of both worlds. You get a universal standard and you get a good standard. You want device designers and engineers to pick the standard, not bureaucrats and academics.

Think of industry as lazy roommates who keep not buying toilet paper. Think of government as the guy who is threatening to wipe his ass with the roommates towel if they don't buy some toilet paper.

Standard setting is good in many cases, you just want to make sure that the right people set the standard. The government role in this should be prodding the right people in the ass to set a standard.

Re:Sounds good to me

[damaki]

Regulation can be good, especially EU ones. The last good that comes to my mind is the one about phone roaming costs. Mobile phone companies used to screw europe-wide traveling people with incredibly high roaming costs. Now there is a law fixing the maximal price per minute. About competition, it also seems that European Commission goes more often after monopolies than its US equivalent. Some (*cough* W Bush *cough*) US governments just did not want to trouble their beloved lobbies.

Re:Sounds good to me

[RMH101]

...and build that adaptor into the iPhone, so you don't have to carry another adaptor. You could have it accessible via a socket on the base. Oh, wait...

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

True. You americans should all get given all the lead toys you can eat from china. That way, only the children smart enough to carry around a lead-testing laboratory with them will survive to future generations...

Re:Sounds good to me

[Hognoxious]

This is removing the freedom of private companies. It's not a primary function of government to ensure that bread is made with flour and not sawdust, ground chalk and white lead.

If you're going to be a libertarian bigot, at least do it properly rather than stopping halfway.

Re:Sounds good to me

[cfulmer]

If the average Joe doesn't care, why should the EU? I would rather have the industry put their effort into, say, extending battery life, than dealing with a common phone charger. Why does the EU think its choices about what should be in a product are better than my choices?

Imagine if this happened in the computer industry -- consumers are concerned about faster processors, more RAM, price, monitor size, etc.... and then the EU comes along and says "Oh, by the way, every computer has to have an external fan that the user can redirect to cool himself off if he gets too hot while using the computer."

The problem is that the fan, and the common power adapter, are not free. The computer maker has to increase prices or reduce other features in order to have the fan, and the phone maker has to make similar trade-offs. Why do the EU regulators think that they know more about what's good for consumers than the consumers themselves?

Re:Sounds good to me

[damaki]

The average Joe does not care because he cannot care. Is he going to check every mobile phone connectors and force the seller to unwrap every box when he choose which free one he is going to take with his subscription? No. He is just going to complain because he has another adapter.
We are talking about mobile phones. If these have non standard connectors, it's mostly because it brings more money to do so. Do not bullshit us with a "it was the cheapest design". The cheapest design would be to use of the shelf components and to assemble these, not to create ultra specific stuff.
If you let companies do, these do not choose the cheapest options, only those which maximize profit. The consumer does not get many choices in the end. Should we not reduce car emissions because the consumer does not systematically buy the cleanest car?
Furthermore, standardizing connectors can also standardize recycling of these and reduce useless production.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the EU not the US.

Re:Sounds good to me

[cfulmer]

Uh... I don't know about you, but when I buy a phone, there are usually a ton of display models. It's real obvious which ones use which connectors.

I never said "it was the cheapest design." My point was that these switches are never costless -- the consumer is going to have to give up something else. It may be a company will determine that by increasing the charging voltage beyond what the EU specification says, they can charge the battery faster. But, by forcing the EU spec, the consumer will never get that benefit. Instead, they're forced to have the standardized charger.

If the industry determines that consumers care about this, then they'll make the change. In fact, it appears that it is already doing so: http://www.pcworld.com/article/159630/universal_chargers_to_finally_become_a_reality.html

Why would they do that? Is it because of the EU? I doubt it -- this standard has clearly been under development for a while. Instead, it sounds like they're responding to what consumers want.

Car emissions are a different beast -- they're a negative externality, a cost that's imposed on everybody else. And, regulation makes sense in that situation because the car consumer can make a choice that's bad for everybody else. But, there's no externality in cell phone chargers, apart from the very, very minimal cost of disposing of old chargers.

Re:Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

...and the RIAA will get a cut.

Re:Sounds good to me

[agm]

Selling bread that knowingly harms people would be illegal and knowingly harming people is the sort of thing the state exists for to prevent. But ensuring we can easily charge our mobile phones? No. That's none of the governments business.

Sounds like a great idea...

[Crashspeeder]

No more "Anybody have a Nokia?" in the office

Restoring the balance

[heretic108]

This is a typical case where pure laissez-faire capitalism can go against the best interests of the consumer. It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s, dominated by proprietary, overpriced, non-interoperable components. IBM moved in with its PC and blew the field wide open, paving the way for today's mix-and-match technology.

Today, we need the same thing for cellphones. Given manufacturers' unwillingness to standardise on a connection interface, and given the lack of a massive IBM-like industry giant willing to push an open standard, there is a case for legislative intervention to come up with a freely published and accessible interface.

The cellphone industry would soar ahead if there was an ISO standard for connection of peripherals, power sources and accessories.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

The cellphone industry would soar ahead if there was an ISO standard for connection of peripherals, power sources and accessories.

Then why don't they do it without legislation?

Re:Restoring the balance

[compro01]

Creeping along is more profitable than soaring ahead.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Fallingcow]

Prisoner's dilemma?

Grok that idea + the tragedy of the commons and you'll understand 99% of the problems with capitalism.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Creeping along is more profitable than soaring ahead.

So you want the government to force them to make less money? How would you feel about mandating a 1% profit margin?

Re:Restoring the balance

[wiredlogic]

Then why don't they do it without legislation?

Because the profit margins on accessory power supplies are huge. By constantly reinventing the wheel the phone manufacturers ensure constant demand for these products. In recent years, however, this proprietary game has become somewhat of a losing battle for them now that there dozens of Chinese companies putting out off brand supplies with compatible connectors.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Cillian]

Other than forcing it through regulation (Which I'm not for), what incentive is there for them to? It basically means they'll probably never sell another charger again, they probably can't add much value (price) to the phone through it, and 99% of people are not going to buy a phone because of it.

Re:Restoring the balance

[mobby_6kl]

No, there's no case for legislative intervention here. There's a shitload of phones with mini-USB/3.5mm connectors to choose from, so get any one of those models and the "problem" suddenly disappears. However, it's not going to fix itself if nobody cares or just ignores it a la DRM: "DRM sucks!" *buys ipod, iphone, Steam games because they're shiny and have auto-update*.

Re:Restoring the balance

[jgtg32a]

Because Cell phones are cheap and easy to replace.

Re:Restoring the balance

[icebike]

Quote:
  "This is a typical case where pure laissez-faire capitalism can go against the best interests of the consumer. It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s, dominated by proprietary, overpriced, non-interoperable components. IBM moved in with its PC and blew the field wide open, paving the way for today's mix-and-match technology."

Skuze me?!?!?

Wasn't that a clear cut case of laissez-faire capitalism to the rescue? Did some government body force IBM to open their platform?

If you are going to rant against a particular system (what ever it may be) don't use a crowning example of the success of said system in the same paragraph.

Re:Restoring the balance

[NewWorldDan]

Umm, to correct your history, the PC market didn't open up until Compaq clean-room reverse engineered IBM's bios. Also, IBM was kind of cheap in how they built the PC and used a lot of commodity components making it particularly easy to clone aside from the BIOS. But let's not let reality cloud your analogy.

As it is, the cell phone industry seems to be largely gravitating to a micro-USB style connector. The last time we bought new phones at work, we gave our vendor an ultimatum: they all had to use the same charger so we wouldn't need to stock more than one kind. It took away a few options, but the bulk of the phones they were pushing used a micro-USB charger. (Or is it mini-USB? I can't remember which is which). Lazy manufacturers and angry customers seem to be bringing about convergence.

As for your claim that the cellphone industry would soar ahead if there was an ISO standard... The cellphone industry is still very much in a wild west environment right now. Lack of a standard charger hasn't really stopped anyone from buying a phone. There is plenty of incentive on the manufacturing front to create standards without intervention. Customers want things to just work and too many standards raises overhead. Given time, natural standards have, and will continue to, arise.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Toonol]

Now, we need to work on teaching you the problem with government

Re:Restoring the balance

[firewood]

This is a typical case where pure laissez-faire capitalism can go against the best interests of the consumer. It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s,

That's right. Think how much better off we would be if the government standardized on the S-100 bus, CP/M, and Z80 CPUs for all future PCs. Or, for even more compatibility with all the existing software at the time, systems based on IBM's new 360-on-a-chip.

Re:Restoring the balance

[TubeSteak]

Wasn't that a clear cut case of laissez-faire capitalism to the rescue? Did some government body force IBM to open their platform?

When IBM moved in, computers were an immature and small market.

Cellphones are already a mature and wildly successful market.
There is zero competitive force that will push them to standardize their connectors.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

I think an environmental surcharge / recycling levy for non-standard chargers (maybe $10 ?) would be the best way to go. It would give companies the freedom to use whatever charging methods they choose, but if they ship a non-standard one they'll have to pay a levy which in turn will cause many/most consumers to go for the cheaper, standard option. It's nice to give them company the freedom, as they may want to design a cellphone that would be too small to incorporate a mini-usb charger for example (think cellphone thin as paper?), or one that uses more power that standard one could provide.

Re:Restoring the balance

[beelsebob]

Because you know... iPhones are tied to DRM... wait... no, iPhones play bog standard mp3s and AACs, and get their music from a now (nearly) DRM free store.

Re:Restoring the balance

[ignavus]

It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s, dominated by proprietary, overpriced, non-interoperable components.

That reminds me of Microsoft right now. Seriously.

Re:Restoring the balance

[NullProg]

This is a typical case where pure laissez-faire capitalism can go against the best interests of the consumer. It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s, dominated by proprietary, overpriced, non-interoperable components

Um, no. The industry was new and every company had a different approach as to how a personal computer should work (I/O, memory, bus etc). Overpriced, hardly, the C64 is still the single best selling computer model of all time. Apple components worked in Apple computers, Commodore components worked in Commodore computers etc. My Epson dot matrix worked with all the different models and I'm pretty sure the power cables were interchangeable too. For future reference, proprietary companies don't supply users with internal schematics, ROM routines, and instructions on how to modify/enhance their products (Apple, Sinclair, and Commodore did).

IBM moved in with its PC and blew the field wide open, paving the way for today's mix-and-match technology.
From the company that brought us Microsoft, the PS/2, and Micro Channel. Talk about proprietary.

You can thank Compaq (now HP) for the open standard of todays PC "Clone" market.

Enjoy,

Re:Restoring the balance

[Fallingcow]

Sometimes, they most certainly do.

Occasionally in a "best for the company's bottom line" sense. Check out the role of government in Japan's recovery after WWII; their corporations won big, and a lot of that was due to government-encouraged (or enforced) cooperation and collaboration. The Ministry of International Trade and Industry was the key player, if you're interested.

More often, a government knows better in a "best for the consumer and general welfare of the economy" sense, or in a "best for encouraging competition" sense. Standardization of things like this greases the wheels of the free market, and brings its mechanisms to bear on the products and corporations in question. After all, what's the point of free-market capitalism if not using the power of competition to improve our lives? Standardization of common parts like this removes inefficiency from the system, encourage competition, and brings down prices. Not exactly a controversial concept.

It's not so much that the government knows better, as that they have different priorities and the power to mandate that those priorities are respected. I'm sure many of the people in the corporations know that these things are possible, but they don't care to do them on their own for various reasons.

Re:Restoring the balance

[jrumney]

In Japan the networks have forced standard connectors on the manufacturers. There are 4 types of connector available in Japan (which is really annoying when you travel there and forget your charger) - NTT Docomo/Softbank 3G, Softbank 2G, KDDI 3G and KDDI 2G. It means that every convenience store can offer mobile phone charging points as part of its service, because the number of connectors is vastly reduced compared with the manufacturer and year specific connectors found elsewhere.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Fallingcow]

Didn't say government doesn't have problems.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

Are you on drugs? All they're doing is saying that their stuff has to be interoperable.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

Not if the profit margin for non standard connectors make that market much nicer to be in.

Re:Restoring the balance

[__aabvlw4075]

The consumer benefit of standardization is in having all (or most of) the cell phone manufacturers using it. Your reasoning works for situations where one manufacturer can, working on its own, meet consumer demand -- e.g. if people want purple polka dot cell phones, someone will come out with purple polka dot cell phones. In other words, producers have incentive to give consumers what they want in these typical cases. The adapter plug standardization in question is different, because each individual producer has incentive to create incompatible plugs.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

How exactly would defining a standard connector like mini-USB hurt cellhpone investment o.O? It's just such a mindboggling leap of logic.

Re:Restoring the balance

[MooUK]

Only if they perceived the benefits of standardising to be greater than the benefits of not doing so. They make a lot of money from charger sales, as has been stated repeatedly throughout the replies to this newspost.

Also note the word "perceived". What companies think is best for them might not be.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it means the consumers currently have no choice because they are generally not made aware of it in the first place. Also because they are essentially caught with that non-standard connector once they have the phone, and this connector this is not widely advertised either.

You're assuming the individual consumer has much more power in this than they really have: cellphone oem, companies and governments are essentially giants in this and we are for the most part gnats as individuals.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Chris Burke]

Wasn't that a clear cut case of laissez-faire capitalism to the rescue? Did some government body force IBM to open their platform?

Well, in a way... when IBM lost their copyright infringement lawsuit against Compaq for reverse-engineering and clean-room-reimplementing the IBM BIOS. That's not so much a government body saying "You must open your platform" as "you can't stop others from opening your platform for you as long as they abide by the law."

You better believe IBM didn't want anyone else to be able to make compatible hardware. But there was a huge financial incentive for anyone interested in making clones to make compatible hardware, and the law just happened to be on their side. I actually shudder to think what would have happened if the legal environment then had been like it is now.

So it kinda is still a bad example. IBM was forced against their will to open their platform, but this was actually a result of a weakness in the anti-laissez-faire monopoly granted by copyright law.

The problem in this case, is that just about nobody has an incentive to make compatible chargers. At least not phone makers. Why, when they can charge extra for proprietary cables? I really couldn't say if there's any patent or copyright related protection makers of these proprietary chargers could claim, but it isn't clear it would matter either way.

Re:Restoring the balance

[don.g]

Wasn't that a clear cut case of laissez-faire capitalism to the rescue? Did some government body force IBM to open their platform?

Actually, yes. IBM got sued for antitrust violations in 1969, and according to a documentary I saw on TV once, was a major factor in their decision to release the PC with a manual that included full BIOS source code and circuit schematics.

Re:Restoring the balance

[fractalrock]

That was his point. Woosh.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

The cost of making a mini-usb connector is most likely trivial compared to the rest of the phone, we're talking about a dumb interface here not a high end processing chip. Your argument has no grounding in reality.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

The entire point is that they're willing to accept MORE EXPENSIVE non standardized connectors, the prize would be forced to become LOWER due to more competition. The problem is based on the fact there is no choice, you can't buy model A with a standard connector and model B with a proprietary one, if you want a certain brand of phone you usually have to deal with their crappy proprietary connector.

The entire purpose of using non standard connectors is to lock out competition so you can charge a premium, there doesn't exist any realistic scenario where a reasonable(keyword, don't fantasize about potential horrors) standard can be bad for the consumers.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Fallingcow]

I wonder- what priority of government are you referring to that is different than serving the demands of the public?

OK, I'm going to ignore the "have you stopped beating your wife?"-esqueness of this question, though rest assured I had a nice counter-snark prepared involving post-Reconquista Spain, among other things :)

Rather than respond in kind, let my attempt to address this head-on:

I don't think you're looking at the whole picture; the actions of a bunch of individuals within a system (their generation of a certain kind of economic demand, for instance) do not necessarily reflect their actual desires--they reflect their (hopefully rational) reactions to the circumstances they are placed in. This is precisely what the story of the Tragedy of the Commons is about; obviously, anyone in the story who realizes that the commons is being ruined will want use of it to be regulated, however, in absence of regulation their best choice is to go ahead and use it as much as they can. The details of the story itself are obviously poor analogues to what we're talking about, but the core idea of desires running counter to economic actions is exactly the same.

It is entirely possible that the vast majority of people want standardization of the chargers, but are lacking an economic incentive to make an individual choice supporting standardization. Especially given that much of the benefit of buying a phone that uses some kind of standard charger style is absent without widespread or universal use of said charger, this strikes me as being very likely. Will the market sort it out eventually despite this? Maybe. But we can certainly sort it out now.

A more serious discussion would be one over whether this is the proper role of government or not--and on an example this trivial, the argument against it would not be without reason. Arguing that that governmental intervention in business must necessarily be contrary to public desire (as surely people would have simply "voted with their dollars" if they wanted otherwise), on the other hand, is more than a bit silly, as I suspect (and hope) you knew when you asked the above-quoted question.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma means that it's really bad economically to be a pioneer when it comes to standardized connections since you lose out a lot of the profits from the proprietary ones, however once EU have forced them all to use a standard (Either one they come up with amongst eachother, or if they fail at playing nice, the one EU comes up with)then they can just move the profit margin from the connectors to the cellphone.

The market thrives on the concept of tricking consumers into a cheap sample (usually the cellhpone) and then onces they're locked they have no choice but to pay for the very expensive accessories. I would prefer the market to be honest and open with the consumers about the real cost of the cellphone.

Market theory is after all based on the fact the consumer is informed.

Re:Restoring the balance

[gad_zuki!]

>This is a typical case where pure laissez-faire capitalism can go against the best interests of the consumer.

Whoa. Are friggin chargers such a hardship on you that you are criticizing the whole system? I have a few chargers here and its pretty easy to keep track of things. Having the government mandate connectors isnt a great idea:

1. USB is mature. Its too late to change it.
2. USB power isnt magical. Its a mess actually.
3. USB mandates mean slower adoption of competitors or elimination of competitors.

Imagine is the government mandated rs-232 serial connectors on phones in the 80s. There probably wouldnt be a USB today. People would be clammoring for rs232 because "thats whats on all my stuff. A 480mbps connector that can charge? Who cares if it doesnt work with my rs232!!!!"

The real problem is that the cell phone industry for men is like how shoes are for women. Its all about style and showing off. The system doesnt cater to sane demands because sane demands arent made for it. Is anyone not buying phones thus voting with their dollars over connectors? No. Is anyone not buying an xbox of a wii because replacement controllers are expensive? No.

I wouldnt mind seeing a new spec, but shoe-horning USB, which has been polluted with proprietary crap isnt the way to go. Perhaps EU would have better luck addressing its concerns with the USB 3.0 spec then trying to turn 2.0 into something its not. Or, heaven forbid, looking outside the box to create a simple yet powerful universal DC connector that'll work on more than just phones (think laptops, AA batteries, game controllers, mp3 players, automotive batteries, emergency equipment, etc).

Re:Restoring the balance

[gad_zuki!]

>here is a case for legislative intervention to come up with a freely published and accessible interface.

Oh, there was no new legislation for the PC case. Apples and Oranges. The government didnt step in a pass a "FREE THE PC BILL" on a whim. It was a simple trial, like any other. If you honestly think you are wronged by having different chargers, please file suit with an attorney. I'll be waiting.

Re:Restoring the balance

[BeanThere]

The cellphone industry would soar ahead if there was an ISO standard for connection of peripherals, power sources and accessories.

What? Haven't you been paying attention? The cellphone industry HAS soared ahead (and at an incredible pace - I can only imagine stifling regulations would slow it down) how much faster do you want it to go!? The market just isn't demanding standardised connectors *all that hard* after all (if it was, the providers would've offered it already). Of all the things I long for in cellphones, I seldom wish for 'more standardised connectors', they usually come with all the connectors I need (and they're no doubt quick and cheap for the manufacturers to make because they're not slowed down by silly government procedures). This is one of those things that a few people sometimes SAY they want, but when push comes to shove, it turns out they don't really want it that badly at all, since they look at other things as more important deciding factors when they actually make the purchase. And you BET that cellphone companies ARE looking at what customers think are important deciding factors - there is already a lot of competition in that market, and in case you haven't noticed, there's an incredible range of sophisticated products available at pretty decent prices. How often have you REALLY heard of someone walk into a cellphone store and say "I'm mainly looking for a phone that has standardised connectors please" - come on, nobody cares, they say "I need 3G" or "it must have a camera" or satnav or whatever. (And even without standards, there are already plenty cheap knock-offs of every type of connector or whatever that you could want.) Forcefully regulating a market in a direction in which it wasn't naturally inclined is not to anyone's benefit, it'll slow it down and it'll create greater market entry barriers to potential competition.

And IBM didn't "move in and blow away" anything with an open platform - they moved in with a CLOSED platform, which was only opened when it was reverse-engineered by - you guessed it - another private company engaging in healthy free-market competition. And IBM didn't succeed at all, they failed and basically lost that market due to the flood of cheap 'IBM compatible' clones.

Re:Restoring the balance

[BeanThere]

Hardly. Imagine the enforcement. Effectively it would be against the law to manufacturer a cellphone device not complying with the standard regulations. Do you not see the huge implications? There'd need to be some kind of government body overseeing all cellphone manufacturing. Checking every cellphone manufactured. Imagine the paperwork that would need to be done, and the pointless jobs for lawyers that would be created. The extra delays and hurdles in getting products out, since every one would need to be checked. You'd probably need to 'register' as a 'cellphone manufacturer' and need a special license, to prevent just anyone from coming in and offering cheaper phones that bypass the regulations. It's such a stupid idea it's beyond belief. Ironically it's probably the major cellphone manufacturers who would benefit most by way of reduced competition, because complex regulatory frameworks and hurdles create onerous market entry barriers that make it *harder* for small, nimble newcomers to enter the market, but that large established players can afford. That's why industries often lobby for this kind of nonsense, in the name of protecting consumers from semi-imaginary problems.

Re:Restoring the balance

[BeanThere]

And actually, not just policing manufacture, but all imports/exports of cellphones too, since different companies would have different regulations and different levels of enforcement. And all this paid for by taxpayers. It's frankly preposterous.

Re:Restoring the balance

[BeanThere]

Sorry, correction, "different companies" -> "different countries".

Re:Restoring the balance

[NullProg]

In any case, the market standardized on its own in response to consumer demand for interchangeable parts.
No it didn't. the market standardized on PC clones around 1994/95 to 1998 because Apple (Mac) was too expensive and everyone wanted on the internet. Apple dropped the Apple ][ line in 1990 and both Atari(ST) and Commodore(C128/Amiga) went Tango Uniform because of management mis-management. Compaq, Dell, NEC, Packard Bell, Gateway etc. killed off Tandy with their PC price points being lower. Consumers only had two choices to get on the internet in 1994, Apple and PC clones. Guess which one was cheaper.

Regular consumer users don't care about standardized hardware, ask any laptop/netbook owner. Out of necessity, I just bought my wife a eMachines desktop computer that doesn't accept any hardware from her old computer other than the keyboard, mouse, and speakers. I guess that would be zero demand for interchangeable parts on my part.

The government had nothing to do with it.
Your right. Thats the way it should be.

Enjoy,

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

Have you been living under a rock? Standards are being enforced all over the place without any of these issues.

Re:Restoring the balance

[m50d]

Wasn't that a clear cut case of laissez-faire capitalism to the rescue?

More like sheer luck. IBM didn't open it up as a selling point, they did it because they'd been caught on the hop and didn't have time to retool their factories.

Re:Restoring the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on. The industry has been able to produce air interface standards and standards that allow core network elements to be mixed and matched. (Even though our american friends try to mess up there with all kinds of proprietary stuff in the name of free economy.)

You are blaming the manufacturers to be not flexible and good players because of missing power socket...

Re:Restoring the balance

[Zironic]

You're obviously living in a fantasy world.

For example there's massive amounts of regulation in the food industry but I don't see people having any problems trying to bring new products to the market if they think it's cheaper or better.

And the way regulation works isn't that you need a license, lots of paperwork or anything that. How it works in the EU is generally like this.

To be allowed to call your product for X your product has to fulfill certain criteria and if a sample doesn't fulfill it then you'll be fined and disallowed to sell your product as X.

There is afaik already lots of standards a cellphone is legally required to follow, mostly to do with the broadcasting and the battery.

Re:Restoring the balance

[poot_rootbeer]

It reminds me of the personal computer industry of the early 1980s, dominated by proprietary, overpriced, non-interoperable components. IBM moved in with its PC and blew the field wide open, paving the way for today's mix-and-match technology.

Your memories of that period in computing history don't jibe with mine.

What I remember is a market with no clear leader: Apple, Commodore, and Tandy had substantial slices of the pie, with at least a half dozen more just behind them. Most platforms were "open" in the sense that anybody could build and sell a peripheral, or write and sell a software program, but because each system did things differently you probably had to do two or three versions in order to recoup your development costs.

The IBM PC and its clones unified the market, yes but did not open it any more than it already was.

Sad! Another misplaced priority

[bogaboga]

While I will not under estimate the problem this proposal would potentially solve, I thought the honorable commissioner should have started with file formats.

The issue of file formats has been around longer. We as users continue live with the consequences of what the commissioner does or does not do on this front.

Am I being unreasonable?

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[Caboosian]

What file formats are you talking about? I've never ran into (or even heard of) that problem, but then again, maybe I'm just uninformed (if so, please, enlighten me). However, the issue of dozens of different charging connectors is one that almost every phone owner has run into. Ever forget your charger when you're leaving on a vacation? You're SOL. Need a quick charge at your friends house? Better pray his charger is compatible with your phone. Furthermore, it essentially forces you to purchase chargers from your phone company, who often charge ridiculous prices for the things.

Personally, this is a problem I've wanted to see solved since I first began using cellular phones. It's just stupid that there isn't a standard for this.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[imbaczek]

you are not unreasonable, you are off topic. standardized connectors are badly needed.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[discord5]

File formats don't have consumer watchdogs up in arms. Their MS Office works just fine unfortunately.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

But it's about votes. Everybody has a phone. Nobody has a file format. Really. Ask your neighbour.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[bogaboga]

Hey man, I would like to open MS Office 2007 documents with any office suite of my choice with 100% fidelity. Got it?

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[duguk]

Hey man, I would like to open MS Office 2007 documents with any office suite of my choice with 100% fidelity. Got it?

Then use RTF! :o)

File formats are complicated problem, what with patents and copyright, etc.

Let us just concentrate on getting our mobile phones to all use the same power socket first, and then we can save the rest of the world.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[Muros]

Off topic, but I do agree. However, if standards are to be imposed on technology, I believe they should be imposed first on the physical side of things. People will always find ways around artificial software/data restrictions much more easily.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[p0tat03]

Good luck. Even completely open specifications like CSS don't have uniform implementations across the board.

Re:Sad! Another misplaced priority

[bogaboga]

Did you understand my comment? I know you did not. So let the standard be there for everyone to implement according to their abilities...but what Microsoft does, is to hide everything and put us on an upgrade treadmill. That should be illegal.

Re:In theory, this could improve competition

[Anonymous Coward]

Communism works, but is not escalable to more than one person.

"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Apart from different connectors, different models of phone also need different voltages and current ratings. I have 3 Nokias that don't interoperate with each other's chargers.

Same deal here. The connector isn't enough. There has to be standardised voltages and currents to make the scheme work.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[Cillian]

I've only ever seen two nokia charger types on phones made this century, and my new phone came with an adapter for the old charger, as well as a new charger, so I'm pretty pleased with them. But miniUSB would rock.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[Crashspeeder]

Half of the consumers don't know or care about their model numbers and use adapters interchangeably as long as they fit. I've seen it and it's scary. I've had people say to me a few years ago "You don't have a VX9800, you have 'The V'!" or "How do you remember all these model numbers?"

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[petermgreen]

Afaict there were two voltages of old style charger, the standard charger and the travel (fast) charger.

The e65 at least will not work with an old style standard charger and a charger adaptor (it will work with an old style travel charger and a charger adaptor)

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[jimicus]

I've only ever seen two nokia charger types on phones made this century, and my new phone came with an adapter for the old charger, as well as a new charger, so I'm pretty pleased with them. But miniUSB would rock.

Right now there is the small connector and the larger, older connector for Nokia.

But the larger connector has in the past been used with phones that required a different charger - different voltage/current specs.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[Cillian]

Both the travel and ordinary old charger worked with my 6210/6310/6310i, and I know the ordinary old charger works with adapter with my n73.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[c]

> The connector isn't enough. There has to be standardised voltages
> and currents to make the scheme work.

Approach it from the other direction. Make it illegal to ship a power brick which doesn't provide standard mini-USB power. Proprietary connectors would still be legal, of course, but if you had to provide mini-USB and you built a device which could operate with that kind of power you'd have to be pretty dumb to add the extra expense of a proprietary connector...

c.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[petermgreen]

I'm just saying that there is at least one case (old "standard charger" and nokia e65) where the adaptor doesn't work.

In nokia's defense they didn't say the adaptor was compatible with my phone so I guess it's partly my fault for assuming that was just an ommission and buying the adaptor anyway.

Re:"Anyone have a Nokia" is not enough

[Anonymous Coward]

All that would need to be standardized is Voltage and Peak Power (Watts). The devices will only draw as much current as they require to charge the battery... You can't "push" current, you insensitive clod. I for one, welcome our standardized USB-connected overlords...

I suggest...

[gandhi_2]

...they could go with this.

Re:I suggest...

[Jesus_666]

Bad idea. That's a whole new port we'll have to add to our PCs. I just don't see that port in my future.

How about Centronics?

Re:I suggest...

[pedestrian crossing]

Good old V.35, now that brings back some memories!

USA Competition!

[glassware]

Man, it's a good thing here in the U.S. we don't have any overzealous regulator deciding what kinds of power adapters we should have on mobile phones. Here in the U.S. every vendor decides to make their own unique adapter, with their own unique configuration, and their own labelling, and their own connector, so that we have to have the latest power adapter for every phone every time we upgrade.

Looking over the dozens of adapters I've had to buy over the years, it's great that I can have such a variety of choices. Each of these dozen products clearly demonstrates competition at work. In fact, some companies compete so hard they don't even put the name of the phone on the power adapter, so even though the connectors look alike I have to doublecheck all their UL listings to see which one applies to each phone so I don't burn it out every time I plug it in!

What's great is that, now, some vendors are even creating better lock-in techniques. Some USB adapters I have work on some phones and some devices but not on others. Some old adapters fit perfectly but produce error messages on other devices. As a result I have an awesome drawer filled with tons of high-end technology and I get to sift through it to find the advanced technology I need to run my phone.

The best part is that, if I forget my adapter, the company makes tons of profits on selling after-market power adapters! They make so much money on those $30 aftermarket adapters that they can afford to drop their prices elsewhere! That's why I pay $150 per month for my cellphone service when most poor Europeans pay a few dozen Euros each month for their highly regulated mobile phones.

Living without regulation is really the best way to go. I mean, my mobile phone company charges $15 per month for unlimited text messages, and their profits are so good I get all sorts of benefits from working with them! So many benefits that I can't list them all here.

Re:USA Competition!

[Toe, The]

The best part is that, if I forget my adapter, the company makes tons of profits on selling after-market power adapters! They make so much money on those $30 aftermarket adapters that they can afford to drop their prices elsewhere!

This also means they are helping out the economy, and so, by your participation, you are helping the economy.

Without this sort of lock-in price-gouging, the U.S economy could be in real trouble. It could even go into a deep recession.

Re:USA Competition!

[freedom_india]

Your sarcastic comment would be funny, if it weren't sadly true.

Re:USA Competition!

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, you have the pleasure of paying for *incoming* calls and texts. Gotta love it. Definitely none of this Euro-cretin crap where there's never a charge for incoming SMS, even if you're halfway around the world. Good, cheap prepaid providers? Pfft. Just let Virgin Mobile nickel and dime you to death, *and* send you annoying spam.

Re:USA Competition!

[Saroset]

I seriously had a bag full of chargers here. Probably 15 chargers, only two of them were the same. Did any of them fit my friends phone when she lost her charger? Nope.

Re:USA Competition!

[Anonymous Coward]

Phones should use the common 5-15R connector and ship with a cord that has a 5-15P on each end. Sorry it has been a long day.

Re:USA Competition!

[Archimonde]

Europe is far away from dreamland though.

Every manufacturer has its own transformer and connector so you can't interchange them. Nokia itself changed almost a dozen different types of connectors in the last 10 years (as did others too). Finally they settled (I hope so) on micro-usb connectors for charging and computer tethering. But they only did this because Chinese authorities decided that all mobile phone connectors should be micro-usb. As the Chinese market is too large to ignore, Nokia had to change their connectors to micro-usb.

Re:USA Competition!

[snsh]

an american standard exists already link

Re:USA Competition!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're seriously paying $150/month for a typical cell phone plan (not a plan suited for salesdrones who are on the cell for 12 all-peak hours every day), then you must enjoy being dry-raped. Shop around.

- T

Re:USA Competition!

[DNS-and-BIND]

You realize that the average person has 1 phone at 1 time? So much for your box of connectors, you're very atypical. Oh wait, you despise average people and wish them every affliction in the book.

Re:USA Competition!

[Zebedeu]

You owe me a new sarcasm detector.

Didn't China already do this?

[spyfrog]

Ok, I might be wrong but didn't The Register run an article for quite a while ago that China was going to enforce legislation on all mobiles sold in China that they needed to use a standard contact for the charger?
If so, isn't this really only a way to follow Chinas decision?

They need to do this for auto components

[Maxo-Texas]

There is no reason there are more than 5 or 6 models of A/C units, alternators, etc.

There should be a standard light duty, medium duty, heavy duty model and standard connection brackets.

Re:They need to do this for auto components

[PitaBred]

Yeah! And while we're at it, let's let the electric companies provide power at whatever voltage and frequency they want. I mean, it's not like your different alternators all provide 12V current, right? Wait... they do? So all your electrical accessories in your vehicle can expect to get a 12V electrical supply? And you can buy any automotive battery that supplies 12V and it works? Damn.

The reason alternators aren't standardized is because you rarely have to work directly with them. If you had to replace your alternator and battery if you wanted a new radio head unit, you better believe people would be up in arms.

Re:They need to do this for auto components

[Saroset]

I partially agree with this. Some auto parts should be standardized, but going to far will kill competition which in effect might kill research that could lead to cleaner/more efficient engines.

Re:They need to do this for auto components

[Maxo-Texas]

I think you are missing my point.

I own a car, model "E". It has an alternator different not only from cars made by each of the dozen or so other car makers, but also different from the other cars by that manufacturer and ALSO different than previous years for the same model.

Why in the world does the manufacturer do this?

We pay a lot of money to have a lot of different alternators when there could be a few standard ones. I can't see how an alternator is different than a "Screw" or "Nail".

There are lots and lots of custom parts. Why are we still doing this? It would be like computers having custom fans instead of just a few kinds of fans (and I know some that did customize back in the late 90's and when the part broke, you were just hosed.)

Re:They need to do this for auto components

[PitaBred]

I don't miss your point. The problem is that an alternator is almost never replaced. Designing the alternator for where it fits in the car is much more important than a standard alternator mounting because you should never really have to touch it. Same with a cell-phone battery. No need for a standard size battery because you never really need to deal with it. The charger is a connection you deal with daily, in multiple different places. It's much more important that the charger be standardized, just like the automobile voltage is standardized.

If we didn't have custom parts for cars (taking it to the logical conclusion), they'd all look like Toyota Corollas. We wouldn't have any sports cars, we wouldn't have any trucks. Or we'd have one almost identical design of each "type". A Ford Mustang wouldn't much different than a Chevy Trans-Am.

Longer life?

[icebike]

How would a standard connector promote longer life?

Who trades in a phone just to get a different connector?

Re:Longer life?

[vlm]

Who trades in a phone just to get a different connector?

When your ultra-proprietary custom charger breaks, if the phone is no longer a recent "hot" model the charger will no longer be available, you have to buy a new phone as you will never be able to charge your old phone again.

And believe me, the company knows this and encourages it.

Re:Longer life?

[nschubach]

Longer life cycles for chargers, car interfaces, headphones and devices that connect to the portable. I for one support the initiative. I'd love to see more cars come with built in charging docks that allow the radio to stream music from my phone or other portable device.

Re:Longer life?

[Toonol]

Have you ever lost a proprietary charger? Sometimes it's as cheap to buy a new phone as it is to replace the charger.

Re:Longer life?

[icebike]

Really?

Name one cell phone for which you can't buy a charger but which has not yet been made obsolete due to other situations (such as the dropping of analog).

Seems like fud to me.

Re:Longer life?

[aXis100]

It's not just 1 charger - I like to have several around home and the office. Plus the cost of headphones, car cradles etc all adds up and the redundant items you accumulate during upgrades are just sheer waste.

Re:Longer life?

[Max Littlemore]

How would a standard connector promote longer life?

I read of a study once that frequent anger is a higher risk in heart disease than smoking or drinking excessively.

Sometimes I'm out, my Nokia needs a charge, I ask someone "anyone got a Nokia charger?" and someone says "yes".

Now I get really angry when I find out it's for an older model and wont fit. Really pissed off.

I get pissed off that every time I buy a phone, I get new headphones, new wall charger, new car charger. Every time. That pisses me off even more.

A move like this could add 50 years to my life.

Conflicted goals?

[macraig]

I don't get it... how can the same commission that calls for doubling copyright to a ridiculous 95 years also recommend a good-for-the-rest-of-us standard like this? It seems like this commission has some rather conflicted or confused goals and motivations.

Re:Conflicted goals?

[Anonymous Coward]

Either (a) the cellphone-makers' lobbyists haven't greased enough palms, or (b) the commissioner is using this as a distraction.

Re:Conflicted goals?

[Muros]

I don't get it... how can the same commission that calls for doubling copyright to a ridiculous 95 years also recommend a good-for-the-rest-of-us standard like this? It seems like this commission has some rather conflicted or confused goals and motivations.

Its a political entity. For some things, people get bribed, in other cases a thing is obviously in everyone's best interest. Seriously, if you were willing to spend $600 on the latest and greatest phone, with custom charger, what is the difference between that and spending $600 on that new phone with no charger, but already having 3 compatible chargers collecting dust in your cable bucket?

Re:Conflicted goals?

[Phroggy]

I don't get it... how can the same commission that calls for doubling copyright to a ridiculous 95 years also recommend a good-for-the-rest-of-us standard like this? It seems like this commission has some rather conflicted or confused goals and motivations.

It's quite simple, really:

1) Nobody has bribed them to keep mobile phone connectors proprietary and incompatible with each other.

2) Politicians use mobile phones themselves. A lot. They're personally annoyed by having to keep track of the different cables and connectors. They're not annoyed by having to pay a bunch of money to buy copies of 90-year-old works, because they have a bunch of money and aren't interested in doing any of the cool things that can only be done with works in the public domain or released under a free license (Creative Commons etc.).

Re:Conflicted goals?

[Anonymous Coward]

nah... it's just plenty enough of members got pissed by forgeting their charger at strange apartment after a night out while being a foreigner in Brussels...

Guenter is an attention whore

[Kabada]

As spiegel.de, where I first read about Guenter Verheugens plans, says: "It's a nice idea, but 7 years too late, and your doing it for publicity only!" This commissions' term is nearly over (or at least close enough to being over for this plan to not have a rat's asses chance of being implemented while Guenter is still in office). Thus I can only agree with spiegel's assessment: Verheugen wants to go out with something attentiongrabbing (hereby accomplished) and those plans will be put back into a drawer once he leaves office.

Re:Didn't China already do this? - Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a way for the EU to get the same standard that the Chinese government forced the mobile industry to adopt into the EU

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Re:Too Bad

[Aladrin]

Indeed.

Cellphone Maker: But our product doesn't need a charger. It's magic.
Govmt: Sorry. It's the law.
CM: Seriously. There's no point.
G: It's the law.
CM: We can make them 1/10th the size and cost without a charger port.
G: It's the law.

Oh you americans

[AlmondMan]

and your egotistical, belly gazing, freedom loving hypocrisy....

The Nokia connector

[Zouden]

All the comments about "just use USB!" miss one important point: it's not necessarily the best form-factor for a charger. If anything, the Nokia charger is.

-it's tiny and cheap to make: just a 2mm barrel.
-rotational symmetry, unlike USB, so you can plug it in while talking.
-low friction, so it won't damage the phone if the cable gets pulled.

I think the best solution would be to make the Nokia charger plug into a standard, as part of the EIAJ barrel connector standards. Those plugs are already just a series of different-sized barrels, so the Nokia connector would make sense there, at the small end of the range.

This doesn't solve the problem of a data connection. But as far as simple charging goes, nothing beats the Nokia connector.

Re:The Nokia connector

[smoker2]

Do you know how many different charging and power devices use that style connector ? Putting out 12 or 24v in some cases. Plug 12v in your phone and watch that lithium fly !
At least USB has a spec.

Re:The Nokia connector

[Zironic]

USB is imo a neater solution since that means that it handles everything with one connector, you use the same connector for charging as you do for connecting to the computer(which will charge the phone at the same time) as you do for your headset.

Re:The Nokia connector

[Muros]

Actually, on the topic of what kind of chargers SHOULD be made universal, I really like mac laptop chargers. Obviously a bit on the big side for a phone, but I have to say I like them. I'm not a mac fan (well, haven't used them lately, they look pretty damn nice these days, but they sucked IMO compared to linux back in the early-mid 90's, maybe cause i was a broke student) but the power connectors on other laptops these days are one of the banes of my life ATM, with people expecting me to fix their broken power connectors (It costs about the same to buy a new laptop as to pay for someone to strip a laptop down, de-solder connector, find connector of same type, solder on, and put back together. For some reason, people have no problem paying a plumber, washing machine repair man, plasterer, carpenter.... etc. that rate, but educated techies obviously should be paid peanuts)

Re:The Nokia connector

[sabster]

It is definitely not the best connector. My wife uses one for her phone and I have a Micro-USB for mine. I have been using mine for 2-3 years and it works fine. She had it for just a few months and the pin is bent!. Not sure how long before I have to get a new one.

The Nokia charger is far from the best connector.

Buying adapters separately

[Anonymous Coward]

if this did happen, then it could also mean that mobile phones wouldn't have to be sold with a charger. Instead, the consumer could just buy a charger separately if they need one, and this probably wouldn't be the case for most people since they'd already have a charger from a previous mobile. In turn, this would lead to reduced costs for shipping mobile phones. Imagine the savings!

Apple adapter

[chelsel]

Apple will probably require the purchase of an adapter to make their device compatible with the standard.

Re:Apple adapter

[Archimonde]

...and the adapter won't be fully compatible with the device. Cough, display cough port cough adapter

just when you thought...

[roc97007]

...that mini-USB was becoming de-facto, how much you wanna bet that the EU will require some funky, blocky connector nobody has ever heard of, like, I dunno, SCART. And then cell companies will have to support two versions of everything -- the rest of the world, and Europe.

The EU could adopt mini-USB for charging/data and 4 conductor mini-TRS for mic/audio, but I for one would be surprised.

Re:just when you thought...

[xaxa]

Everyone in Europe has heard of SCART. Every DVD player, VCR, satellite box, DTV box, and TV I've ever seen in Europe has a SCART socket (or multiple). What's the problem? It's only like requiring a standard kind of socket for the 230V outlets in your room.

I'd be surprised if the EU doesn't adopt mini-USB.

If they do, there's no technical reason not to do the same for the rest of the world.

Re:just when you thought...

[unitron]

...and 4 conductor mini-TRS...

Wouldn't that make it a 4 conductor mini-TRRS?

Of course if they made it TRRRS it could be quadrophonic! :-)

Re:just when you thought...

[Jesus_666]

...that mini-USB was becoming de-facto, how much you wanna bet that the EU will require some funky, blocky connector nobody has ever heard of, like, I dunno, SCART.

You mean a ubiquitous jack a tiny fraction the size of the device that allows daisy chaining, is easy to correctly plug into and is compatible with virtually every single piece of equipment you can buy in Europe? Yeah, that would suck.

Re:just when you thought...

[oilfinder]

No they haven't.... The french have only heard of 'peritel'
Fortunately it's the same connector, it's just the french being the french had to come up with their own name for it ;-)

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so, do not buy from the cell phone place

[Anonymous Coward]

If you do not mind getting things from China, try cellphoneshop.com

The car chargers are like $3. Verizon wanted $20. I bought 3. One I broke (stepped on) after 6 Months. Second has been working for over a year. The third is still in the box. Biggest issue was if your phone just came out, it might not be there. The second was the shipping is high if only getting one item. I usually see if a few people are looking for things and make a bigger order. Same shipping cost for 2 items as 15.

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Too many stupid extra cables

[hellfire]

If anything that the last 30 years of failed american de-regulation have taught us, is that not all government regulations are bad. The mantra that government regulations are bad because they are from the government is silly. You can have smart government, just like you can have dumb government. You can have a smart company, or a dumb company. Regulations aren't there to promote smart or dumb companies. They are just there to encourage companies to be good, while not allowing evil companies to take advantage of consumers, resources, and labor for gains that hurt the populace as a whole.

The rights of a company should not outweight the rights of a consumer when it comes to choice. Right now, I have no choice. If I want a new phone, almost invariably I have to pay for new cables. That has never not happened. I had a cheesy crappy nokia back in 1998, then the palmphone and two treos, and finally an iphone. Even when switching between treos I had to get new cables, phones from the same damn company! That's not a choice, that's a lack of a choice.

Also, considering all those extra cables take up resources to make, and people are probably not properly recycling them, I have an interest in keeping those extras out of landfills. Companies in the US haven't done a good job of telling me where I can recycle them for free.

Of course, there are counter arguments to this, but there's no reason to be dismissing this as "regulation=bad". That era is dead, let it go. The only reason why we aren't in a full depression now is because of government regulations and programs enacted after the great depression which benefit consumers and US citizens.

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It's for *mobile* phones.

[DrYak]

maximum power draw of 500 mA @ 5V? {...} Charging takes too damned long already.

Huh... sorry, what do you plan charging that requires 10A on 5V ? A (non-netbook) laptop ? A portable oven ? An arc welder ?

Read again the title.
They want standard data & charge for *mobile* cell phone. For these small candy-bar sized electronic device, which can charge at 500mA for a couple of hours, and which consider 1A as "mad lightning fast turbo charging OMGBBQFTW !!!"

Most phone are quite happy with 500mA and provide 1A only as a convenience for super-impatient users.

If your current monster requires 5A to be able to charge in less than 2 days, maybe you should try considering buying gadgets which are a little bit more energy efficient. The environment will be grateful.

Re:It's for *mobile* phones.

[Cederic]

Hmm. I get 2kW through the mains and you want me to charge my phone with a mere 2.5W?

Why wait a few hours when the technology and the power supply permit charge times in minutes? My current monster doesn't even have that large a battery and still takes longer than I'd like to charge on the 1A 'dumb' power supply. (Incidentally, it also charges from USB in the same socket).

Maybe you should try considering buying gadgets that give you all the technical capabilities you need on a single device instead of buying several, spare batteries for them, and making your friends wait while they all charge. The environment will be grateful.

I will noy buy anything !=USB charger

[Bearhouse]

Mod Zocalo way the f*ck up, please.

I got so sick of carrying multiple chargers and cables all around the world. What a waste of resources, too. I'm sure I'm not the only one with literally dozens of incompatible chargers, PC-cables and headphones rotting in a cupboards.

Plus he's right - the better (Moto, BBerry) devices come (in Europe) with multi-plug transformers that dole out plenty of charging juice on anything from 100 to 250 volt.

Re:I will noy buy anything !=USB charger

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus he's right - the better (Moto, BBerry) devices come (in Europe) with multi-plug transformers that dole out plenty of charging juice on anything from 100 to 250 volt.

Blackberries in North America come with the same charger and all the travel prongs you need.

Thinking ahead...

[rickb928]

How about a spec that includes something smarter in charging?

- Like signalling the charger to come out of ultra-low-consumption sleep mode and deliver current?

- And permit a near-contact solution, be it a mat with large contact pads, or inductive?

- Even prioritized charging, telling the device how much current it will get, so the device can be smarter about power use and maybe shut off the 'unnecessary' devices to accelerate charging?

My G1, for all its faults, charges pretty quick. I don't notice it charging slower on a PC, though when I plug it into my Ubunbtu box it gets connected, the SD card need only be mounted on the device, and Ubuntu is ready out of the box to swap files and be nice to it. My XP box wants to treat it like a USB stick alsl, but one of my desktops doesn't want to charge it unless a driver is installed. The others are happy just the way it is.

I don't much care what the connector is, except we should be looking past USB I think. While non-contact charging is all the rage for the future set, an inductive gizmo would be sweet. I wonder how lossy, that's all.

ps- when I realized that my G1 is essentially a really tiny netbook with a phone and GPS in it, I got over the battery life problems. It does as well as any standard netbook, and I can hide it in a glove. Yes, the keyboard doesn't compare, but hey, we manage...

Re:Thinking ahead...

[Ilgaz]

As everyone seems to standardize on USB and USB is in fact intended for universal communication, the thing you say can be easily done over USB 1.1 with almost zero bandwidth (even for that standard).

It could be done with industry standard format such as XML (non MS bastardized) too. In fact that is what that EU commission should come up with.

It's started with miniUSB(Nikon, HTC, TomTom, etc)

[adrew]

The first mini-USB device I bought was my Nikon D50 back in 2005. Then I bought a T-Mobile G1 in November and got a TomTom nav system for Christmas.

They all have mini-USB and it is so convenient. I can use the same car charger to power the TomTom and charge my phone, and I can use the same cord to connect all three to the computer. The G1 will also charge from any USB port so that is handy.

IBM interoperability?

[tjstork]

Boy, IBM was cooler in the old days of the PC, but let's recall that IBM's vision for the PC was with an IBM Token Ring Lan adapter connecting to an IBM Mainframe, and the PC would run either IBM DOS or IBM CP/M, and then later, IBM OS/2. We would all e-mail each other with IBM Lotus Notes, using IBM SmartSuite for OS/2 for productivity apps.

If anyone really forced the issue of interopability in the PC space, it was Compaq first making a hardware clone, and then, Microsoft being willing to sell them their operating system. Then Microsoft went to all the hardware players and promised them a way that they could keep their products secret, but still deliver the illusion of commoditization that consumers desired. That practice is just now ending for the last holdout, graphics cards.

Then, once Microsoft got entrenched, some Finnish guy got his nuts all twisted up and said, "if those idiots can make a PC operating system, then so can I".

The rest, as we say, is a history of flamewares on slashdot.

Re:IBM interoperability?

[RMH101]

I still have to mail everyone using Lotus Notes, you insensitive clod!

Re:IBM interoperability?

[compro01]

Don't forget that IBM tried to sue Compaq (for copyright infringement on their BIOS, I believe) and lost.

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The USA already has a standard connector

[Anonymous Coward]

We already have a standard charging connector
link

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IBM PC compatible

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM moved in with its PC and blew the field wide open, paving the way for today's mix-and-match technology.

No they didn't.

IBM created the PC architecture and tried to keep it secret and proprietary. It was several competitors who reverse engineered the system and started clones that were "IBM compatible". This is how Compaq got its start.

If IBM had its way things would have continued to be locked down (with huge profit margins for themselves).

Laptop batteries

[multi io]

This is just more proof that the EU has a talent for demanding irrelevant stuff. If they must force companies to come up with a standard, then why not one for mechanical and electrical dimensions of laptop batteries? Rechargeable high-power batteries are real high-tech wear parts, so opening the market there and enabling battery manufacturers to sell their stuff directly to end users might actually stimulate competition and lower prices, right?

Re:Too Bad

[Jesus_666]

Cellphone Maker: But our product doesn't need a charger. It's magic.
Govmt: Sorry. It's the law.
CM: Seriously. There's no point.
G: Then where does your product take the energy from?
CM: Thin air.
G: Give us a couple of these things to confirm that and we'll license them for use as power plants.
CM: Nice. If you buy them by the million we give you a custom ringtone for each of your plants.
G: It's a deal. Now you'll have to excuse me, I have to catch a broom.
Broom: You'll never catch me, haha!

...well, okay. The broom thing probably wouldn't happen like that. Except in the UK; I hear it's a rather silly place.

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Not standard chargers, change the building codes

[mbstone]

Change the building codes so that next to the Edison power outlets in your home there is an outlet for filtered +24VDC at 2A using a female round barrel connector. Devices would then incorporate a voltage regulator IC to get the 24VDC down to 19 or 12 or 5VDC or ± 12 or whatever. The standard charging cord would, therefore, be a male-to-male round barrel cord.

If only the EU

[ClosedSource]

mandated this years ago, we could be using a DB25 connector on our cell phones today!

Re:If only the EU

[sac13]

mandated this years ago, we could be using a DB25 connector on our cell phones today!

This should be modded insightful rather than funny. Once you REQUIRE a standard, there's nothing to improve because you can't sell anything better. Sure, it's a bitch to have to buy a new charger when you change phones. But, it'll be a bigger problem people will be whining about when new X power/data interface is created, but you can't get it on your phone because they are legally required to stick with micro usb or whatever the "standard" is.

Is this a problem? Sure. Is the answer to lock down choice? If you never want to change your mind, sure. But, what if you do? Change the standard? And, who decides?

Re:If only the EU

[greed]

Well, actually, that is where the DB25 is funny and the USB mini- and micro-connectors aren't. There's room on a cellphone for, say, the USB micro-B connector _and_ Samsung's whatever-that-thing-is-for-I've-never-done-anything-but-charge-the-phone-through-it-thing.

Apple can keep their dock connector and fit a USB micro-B on there, too. Motorola can keep their USB mini-B connector and... uh... job's done there.

But a DB25 wouldn't leave a whole lotta room; for a dock connector and DB25, you'd have to have them at opposite ends.

Apple, at least on my iPod Classic, already does part of this: I can plug a standard 3.5mm stereo headphone into it. But the audio is also presented on the dock connector. (Which is accessible to headphones with the Wired Remote Control, which works surprisingly well even when exposed to rain on a motorcycle.)

The most important criteria of all

[XB-70]

There is one standard interface that needs to be legislated above all others: automobile hands-free and voice-recognition standards.

Get in your car, drop your phone into a charging slot and it should integrate with your car's audio system. Yes, Mercedes (and others) already have this feature - but it's built in and with no interface/blue tooth standards.

Let's start lobbying and make this happen. It will save lives.

I wish they would do the same for batteries...

[WoTG]

I hate the battery situation for cell phones.

Since there aren't standard sizes, the only non-OEM ones are the incredibly cheap fakes. They'll probably hold a charge, but are they safe? People should not fool around when it comes to Li-On.

After a couple years, a new OEM battery costs more than the cellphone is worth... so, the only practical thing to do is get a new phone. That isn't good for the planet or my wallet.

If they could standardize on a half-dozen cellphone battery sizes, hopefully Energizer or Duracell would come out with non-OEM batteries for say, $20. I would trust them.

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Re:Too Bad

[Ksevio]

At that point they just need to add the velco attached port to the phone.

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Hmmmmm....!

[Anonymous Coward]

What a statesman! I want to be EU commisioner. That way, I can stop P&G from making those band-aides that are packaged with those stupid little red strings that don't work! Well, that and f*** up the lives of millions of people with the wave of my hand.

It would be the manufacturers' fault.

[jotaeleemeese]

They have used this as a cash cow for no good technical reason.

Re:It would be the manufacturers' fault.

[argent]

The manufacturers seem to have decided to go with micro-USB.

What about charging WIRELESSLY?

[lewko]

The new Palm Pre has inductive charging called "Touchstone".

Connector conschmector!

Re:What about charging WIRELESSLY?

[dave420]

Try using that when you're making a call and your battery is nearly dead :)

Not enough, but necessary.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you know you are going to have a certain connector in the phone, then 3rd parties can step up to the challenge and build the chargers (since the other side of the power cable is already standardized up to a practical point: it wasn't always like that).

Re:Didn't China already do this? - Yes

[Max Littlemore]

Or perhaps it's a chance for the EU to fragment phone charger standards. Think NTSC vs. PAL vs. SECAM

USB is the way to go

[tanveer1979]

I have a mio GPS, and the charger is a standard USB port. This means every time I connect it to my comp, it gets charged. any time I can't find a charger, all I need is a USB cable.

The downside is that companies cannot charge 50$ for a charger that costs 1$ to make. I know you can order chargers from dealextreme etc., for 5$ a piece, but frankly speaking a large percentage of the users won't go that route. Besides that there is also an issue of "warranty FUD".

So if it takes a legislation to do it, well so be it. However I sincerely hope that they do not come out with some new standard called Universal cell phone port.
USB is cheap, easily available, and almost everybody has a USB cable lying somewhere!

Re:Too Bad

[polar red]

Let the best man (company) win.

epic FAIL. currently, the customers are being screwed.

Yeah it is SO hard.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is SO hard to standarize on mini-usb as a storage format that for instance the MP3 player industry hasn't been able to do it. Oh wait.

Go check it out, try to find an mp3 player that does NOT charge via USB. Only Apple insists you buy their cable (and that still hooks up to USB).

My iRiver had no problem with the apple charger with a regular USB->mini-usb cable in it.

So if MP3 players can, why can't mobile phones?

GreenPlug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Green Plug could be an answer to this, it's connector is USB like too I think.

Standard connector for laptops?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! I want a standard charger/connector for my laptop!!
Preferebly with magnetic holder like the one by Apple!
This is unfair competition!!!

Update: already decided

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aGO.cUEBPwps&refer=europe

Theory and practice

[RMH101]

In theory, theory and practice are the same thing.
In practice, they're not.

Micro Channel Architecture?

[zerofoo]

IBM was hardly a proponent of an "open architecture". As others have said here, their loss in court to Compaq forcibly opened the architecture.

Remember Micro Channel Architecture (MCA)? It was a proprietary bus developed for the PS/2. IBM was the KING of vendor lock-in, at least before Microsoft perfected the process.

-ted

easy fix

[RobertLTux]

have the phone show up as (among other things) a "mass storage device" then you could

1 get full power from the port
2 do stuff with the the data on the phone
3

Good idea; this is what a government is good for

[golodh]

Seriously, this is one of the (not very many) things a Government is good for in a marketplace: to force parties to agree on a common interface, or a common plug.

While the inconvenience isn't all that great, there is no sane reason why all the plugs on cellphone loaders should be different. One single plug (and one single voltage) will do nicely.

However, despite the fact that it's a good idea in and by itself, one wonders that the EU has the time for this sort of thing. This EU commissioner really couldn't find anything that needs more urgent attention? Am I the only one who thinks that he must have licked all the problems in his department then, and that his department can now be safely downsized?

As long as it takes or can take 5V

[Anonymous Coward]

All you need is a bender from the USB style into the plug for the old kit.

And why is the amperage a problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're just charging the fecking thing. Charge overnight. How many ampere-hours is it at 100mA over 8 hours??? Plenty.

Or you can have a wall wart that does 1500mA and charges ANY phone in 1/10th the time. The phone has to be able to handle 100mA from the USB port and 1500mA from the wall wart but with that done, no problem.

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Re:Too Bad

[Aladrin]

Actually, inductive charging does indeed work like this. You just get the item near the charger and it charges. No port necessary.

Consumers decide

[Jason1729]

The last few phones I bought, I made sure they used a mini-USB connector to charge. It makes things a lot easier than having yet another adapter. Even my Motorola blue tooth headset, uses the same charging interface.

Re:Too Bad

[Jesus_666]

However, inductive charging as the only option is also rather unlikely as I think it's a rather bad choice for a data port - and every mobile phone has one of those nowadays. A mobile phone without a data port would have to rely on Bluetooth for data transfer; however, not every user can be expected to use a Bluetooth-capable computer. Also, entirely inductive charging makes it harder to charge the phone on the go (say, in the car or on a plane).

Most importantly, if the law blocked an inductive charger it would do exactly what it was intended to do: Keep manufacturers from forcing proprietary chargers onto the customers. An inductive charging option in addition to a standard port is a nice thing and would probably fly but it's fairly safe to assume that inductive chargers would be incompatible between manufacturers and thus unsuitable as the sole way of charging the phone.

If there is an industry-wide push for a generic inductive charger it should be fairly easy to inform the Commission and ask for an amendment to the law that allows it.

Re:Too Bad

[writerjosh]

What's up with this "Troll" flagger? Got nothing better to do, eh? Jeeze. Get over yourself.

With it's own label ?

[freaker_TuC]

You have to know, I've got a crate full of those adapters; If they only wore a label for which purpose they were when I've put them together!

It's nice on the other end to have a type of adapter for any current/voltage...

If I only knew for which purpose they were!

This is utterly ludicrous.

[capn0jack]

What next? Legislate that auto manufacturers have to make transmissions parts interchangeable? That would be in the consumers' best interest, right?