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Student Satirist Gets 3 Months; the Judge, Likely More

ponraul writes "When Judge Mark A. Ciavarella Jr., 58, sentenced Hillary Transue, 17, on a harassment charge stemming from a MySpace parody of her high school's assistant principal, Hillary expected to be let off with a stern lecture; instead, the Wilkes-Barre, PA area teen got three months in a commercially operated juvenile detention center. In a reversal of fortune, Ciavarella and his colleague, Judge Conahan, 56, find themselves trying to plea-bargain an 87-month sentence in Federal correctional facilities relating to a kick-back scheme that netted the pair $2.6 Million and PA Child Care 5000 inmates." True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

689 comments

  1. 3 months for satire? by wjh31 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    im suprised myspace isnt filtered in china

    1. Re:3 months for satire? by internerdj · · Score: 1

      And apparently 3 for you for a humourous (and sad) comparison.

    2. Re:3 months for satire? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't buy it. You can't really "satire" your high school principle; they're unlikely to meet the "public figure" criteria that would protect the person who is making fun of them from legal repercussions if anything strayed over the line.

      That being said, the sentence in this case was wildly inappropriate. The page could never have been mistaken for real libel due to the inclusion of text explicitly stating that the page is a joke. On top of that, jail time? For a juvenile?

      Amusingly, it's high profile, geek-enraging cases like this that probably got him caught. If he'd kept sending kids to juvy for misdemeanors, it wouldn't have been covered so widely, and we wouldn't have given a damn.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    3. Re:3 months for satire? by mgiuca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't buy it. You can't really "satire" your high school principle; they're unlikely to meet the "public figure" criteria that would protect the person who is making fun of them from legal repercussions if anything strayed over the line.

      I doubt she was doing it for a public satire. Just an in-joke with her school.

      Maybe that doesn't hold up under the legal definition of satire, but that's what the social reasoning is behind creating a page like that.

    4. Re:3 months for satire? by Pictish+Prince · · Score: 1

      im suprised myspace isnt filtered in china

      How in the name of all things reasonable is this off topic?

      --
      Only his tendency toward a dazed stupor prevented him from screaming aloud.
    5. Re:3 months for satire? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree. But when people say "satire" in this case, they're trying to link it to certain protections satire traditionally enjoys in our legal system, and I was making a point that it's really unlikely they would apply here.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:3 months for satire? by Gilmoure · · Score: 4, Insightful

      C'mon, binding/imprisoning people for profit?

      And they said slavery was dead.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    7. Re:3 months for satire? by lowflying · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apparently neither of us is a lawyer.

    8. Re:3 months for satire? by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can't really "satire" your high school principle; they're unlikely to meet the "public figure" criteria that would protect the person who is making fun of them from legal repercussions if anything strayed over the line.

      Really? A public-school principal works for the government, in a position of authority, and has broad discretionary power over the students under their charge. They are well-known in their community and frequently act as the public-face of their organization. Certainly, a high-school principal is not as famous as, say, Barrack Obama but it is quite arguable that he is a bona fide public figure for the purposes of satire.

      --
      Who did what now?
    9. Re:3 months for satire? by someone1234 · · Score: 1

      Philadelphia is geographically far from China.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    10. Re:3 months for satire? by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      they're unlikely to meet the "public figure" criteria

      They get paid by tax dollars, they're a public figure. I don't know what other criteria to use.

      How public do they have to be? Do they need to represent a hundred citizens? A thousand? There are some schools that have twice that population, and there are some cities that don't.

    11. Re:3 months for satire? by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't really "satire" your high school principle; they're unlikely to meet the "public figure" criteria that would protect the person who is making fun of them from legal repercussions if anything strayed over the line.

      Of course the principal is a public figure - especially in the "world" of the high school students who were the intended audience of the satire.

    12. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Amusingly, it's high profile, geek-enraging cases like this that probably got him caught.

      Nope. Somebody involved turned everybody in.

    13. Re:3 months for satire? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      Principals are not elected, they are hired. That is a big component of what it takes for federal or state employees to be considered "Public Figures" in my mind.

      Besides this guy wasn't event the Principal, he was the Assistant Principal. That makes him even less important. Prior to this case, I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the parents of children at that school could actually have told you this guys name off the top of their head.

      Also, calling someone a Douchebag (which is what she did) != Parody.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    14. Re:3 months for satire? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Principals are not elected, they are hired.

      No different from actors.

      Also, calling someone a Douchebag (which is what she did) != Parody.

      Nonsense. Many parodies are inherently offensive - see 2 Live Crew's "Harry Woman".

    15. Re:3 months for satire? by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Also, calling someone a Douchebag (which is what she did) != Parody.

      You obviously missed quite a few SNL broadcasts!

    16. Re:3 months for satire? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      The judge was looking to support the economy. Our jails aren't full enough so we need to increase the population to offer more spending. Also, sending a 17 year old to juvi - where violent offenders reside - is a sure way to rehab her into a responsible citizen. It will also help her get into a good college and a wonderful job. I hear McDonalds isn't hiring anymore, but I am sure she can get paid as a prostitute..a skill she may pick up in juvi. See the judge cares and you are all callous.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    17. Re:3 months for satire? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1
      Yes, but actors jobs are to stand up in front of people in public and perform. That is not part of the job description of the average Assistant Principal. They do not perform their jobs in front of an audience, and do not have to get into the public eye in order to get the job.

      Besides, all she did was call them douchebags and tell other to harass them with the contact information she provided. It's not that what she said was offensive, but that she made no effort to dress it up above the level of 4th grade name calling that makes it not parody. According to the dictionary on my computer the definition of Parody is:

      parody |ËparÉ(TM)dÄ"|
      noun ( pl. -dies)
      an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect : the movie is a parody of the horror genre | his provocative use of parody. See note at caricature .
      â an imitation or a version of something that falls far short of the real thing; a travesty : he seems like a parody of an educated Englishman.

      verb ( -dies, -died) [ trans. ]
      produce a humorously exaggerated imitation of (a writer, artist, or genre) : his specialty was parodying schoolgirl fiction.
      â mimic humorously : he parodied his friend's voice.

      No attempt at humor, no attempt to do anything other than lash out at the administration because she was angry. And she was angry b/c she wasn't getting her way.

      I'm glad that her behavior was ultimately punished (although I do agree that prison time is overkill) and I'm also glad that corrupt officials are also being punished. One has nothing to do with the other.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    18. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously missed quite a few SNL broadcasts!

      scharkalvin, you ignorant slut!

    19. Re:3 months for satire? by tsm_sf · · Score: 1

      They do not perform their jobs in front of an audience, and do not have to get into the public eye in order to get the job.

      You're wrong on both counts. Wildly wrong. Were you homeschooled?

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    20. Re:3 months for satire? by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      Prior to this case, I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the parents of children at that school could actually have told you this guys name

      What the parent knew is irrelevant. The target audience was the students at the school, who knew who he was, thus making him a public figure for the purposes of this case.

      Agreed on the "douchebag" thing, but I didn't see the page, and so don't know the context. John Stewart calls people "douchebag", and the Daily Show is still satire.

    21. Re:3 months for satire? by Autonom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, I remember some guys doing this to our principle back when I was in High School and it was hilarious. Of course, that was back in the days before you could be charged for and labeled as a sexual offender for peeing in public. I don't even want to think about what type of puritanical influence it took to make that a reality. It's too bad there few or no laws in local legislation to protect against obvious cases of abuse of power/position like this one.

    22. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The case isn't about tort defamation. She was found guilty of criminal harassment. Hustler v. Falwell is irrelevant. (I think)

    23. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go ask someone with a sense of humor to read the OP, and have them explain it to you.

    24. Re:3 months for satire? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      No, I went to a total of 7 different schools between kindergarden and my senior year of HS (My family moved a lot). At none of those schools was the Assistant Principal a job akin to that of an actor where they get up on stage and perform. Their job is largely administration and clerical work. None of the administration members were elect to office so they never had to grab the general publics attention as a routine part of their job.

      Where YOU homeschool? You've got the manners of someone that lacked socialization. If you think I'm wrong you don't just say "WRONG" you also give evidence of how I'm supposedly wrong.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    25. Re:3 months for satire? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      That's not how it works.

      Everyone I work with knows my boss, but that doesn't make him a public figure. I bet everyone in her school knew who she was, but that wouldn't excuse the Assistant Principal calling her a bitch.

      Besides, your definition of "Public Figure" is irrelevant since calling someone a douche bag is not Parody, it's juvenile name calling and is the textbook definition of libel. IIRC that's what she was convicted of

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    26. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      calling someone a douche bag is not Parody, it's juvenile name calling and is the textbook definition of libel.

      Bullshit. That would fall under "vulgar abuse"; that's not equivalent to defamatory.

    27. Re:3 months for satire? by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      But politically they are certainly in the same ballpark.

      -Resident of Philly

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    28. Re:3 months for satire? by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 1

      Maybe to you or I the high school principle is not a public figure, but to all of the current students and probably a reasonable number of former students the principle is. Presumably the fake myspace page, whilst being publicly viewable to anybody, was targetted at getting a laugh from this specific group of people.

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    29. Re:3 months for satire? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Why not? Where does it say in the law that to be satire person has to have been on TV or be at least a c-list celebrity? To the kids at that school that person is seen every day, just like your nightly news anchor. So why should they be off limits? I mean my old boss could do a damned good impersonation of me stumbling in to work in the morning(I'm pretty much a zombie bear before my coffee and cigarette) and it was pretty damned funny to those that knew me. So I should be able to sue for libel now?

      Frankly we just have too many damned lawyers and too many damned laws. I think everyone should lighten the fuck up and stop taking themselves so damned serious. And I hope that assistant principal has some serious guilt, getting a kid thrown in juvi for three months over a freaking joke. Quit taking yourselves so damned serious and lighten the fuck up already.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    30. Re:3 months for satire? by Gorobei · · Score: 1

      No attempt at humor, no attempt to do anything other than lash out at the administration because she was angry. And she was angry b/c she wasn't getting her way.

      So she's stuck in a situation she can't walk away from. I'd be inclined to give her infinite free-speech points, and let the administration sever the relationship if they can't deal.

      I'm glad that her behavior was ultimately punished (although I do agree that prison time is overkill) and I'm also glad that corrupt officials are also being punished. One has nothing to do with the other.

      Yeah, expel her if you can't deal. For the last two thousand years, this has been the traditional punishment for students who wage non-violent campaigns against their tutors (beatings also factor in, but they are rarer nowadays.)

      That said, I hope the judges involved enjoy their time in federal rape-me-in-the-ass prison because understanding what it feels like to be powerless in the face of arbitrary authority is something a judge would be better off for understanding.

    31. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You Americans' self-righteousness is astonishing. No students would get jailed for satires on school principles in China, unlike in America.

    32. Re:3 months for satire? by Smitty025 · · Score: 1

      I think he/she does have to get into the public eye to do his/her job, just by virtue of what his/her job is. He/she is responsible for the day to day affairs of the education of the children of the community. Since the taxpayers of that community, by virtue of paying for that education, have a vested interest in its outcome, they therefore the actions of an assistant principle should be under the public's scrutiny. As it turns out, such a system for public review of the school (and yes, it's employees) exists. We call it the board of education.

    33. Re:3 months for satire? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Principals are not elected, they are hired. That is a big component of what it takes for federal or state employees to be considered "Public Figures" in my mind.

      In the school community they're a public figure. They're like the CEO of the organization.

      If you work for Microsoft, and you make a satire of bill gates, you might get fired or punished within the organization, but you haven't broken any laws by creating a satire of authority, you have exercised your free speech right in opposition to (or in resentment of) that authority.

    34. Re:3 months for satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummmm - at least in some jurisdictions - incorrect.

      While individual teachers are not public figures Principals may be the officially designated spokesperson for a particular educational institution.

      Since their position makes them a public spokesperson -- they are a public figure.

    35. Re:3 months for satire? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1
      My understanding of the AP's job is to be the Principals assistant. That's like saying Steve Job's Secretary is a public figure because her boss is a public figure.

      If this was about some legitimate satire or parody of say, the Superintendent then I would agree that the person involved is a public figure. However, even if we disagree on whether or not the AP is important enough to be considered a public figure is irrelevant in this case. Calling someone a name b/c you are frustrated != satire or parody. Look them up in the dictionary.

      parody |ËparÉ(TM)dÄ"|
      noun ( pl. -dies)
      an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect : the movie is a parody of the horror genre | his provocative use of parody. See note at caricature .
      â an imitation or a version of something that falls far short of the real thing; a travesty : he seems like a parody of an educated Englishman.
      verb ( -dies, -died) [ trans. ]
      produce a humorously exaggerated imitation of (a writer, artist, or genre) : his specialty was parodying schoolgirl fiction.
      â mimic humorously : he parodied his friend's voice.

      satire |ËsaËOEtÄr|
      noun
      the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. See note at wit .
      â a play, novel, film, or other work that uses satire : a stinging satire on American politics.
      â a genre of literature characterized by the use of satire.
      â (in Latin literature) a literary miscellany, esp. a poem ridiculing prevalent vices or follies.

      Calling someone a douchebag is not the exaggerated mimicry of parody, or the humorous pointing out of flaws seen in satire. It is a teenage being frustrated and resorting to 4th grade level name calling.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    36. Re:3 months for satire? by russotto · · Score: 1

      1) You don't need to be considered a "public figure" to be the legitmate target of satire. The "public figure" part of libel means that a "public figure" must prove that the defamation was actually malicious. Satire is not defamation for reasons other than lack of actual malice.

      2) Calling someone a "douchebag" isn't defamation because it's a meaningless insult. No reasonable person would believe that the person being called a "douchebag" was, literally, a feminine hygiene appliance, so there's no false statement of fact.

    37. Re:3 months for satire? by Neuroelectronic · · Score: 0

      A judge getting kick-backs? In my Amerika?

  2. Poetic justice? by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 5, Insightful

    True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

    Also operated on commercial grounds? Because the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

    --

    People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    1. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Then check this out: http://www.againstpuryear.org/

    2. Re:Poetic justice? by sesshomaru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

      Welcome to 21st Century America... get ready for a bumpy ride!

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    3. Re:Poetic justice? by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also operated on commercial grounds? Because the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

      It seems like something out of a particularly prescient sci-fi novel, to me.

      We the People of the United States have allowed our allegedly-elected representatives to reinstitute slavery.

      In any case, we already have slavery by proxy in this country, because we import literally tons of goods made with slave labor in China.

      If you think we did away with slavery in the USA, think again.

      As a related but not identical issue, disenfranchisement of felons means that you don't have to care how many of them you have - they can't vote, so even if you assumed that your vote counts, they would have been prevented from changing the system.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Poetic justice? by Fallingcow · · Score: 2, Informative

      Stephenson's Snow Crash had 'em in 1992. I'm sure he was far from the first.

    5. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison. The problem is that the payment structure was set up in such a way as to benefit the operator for an increased number of incarcerations. It shouldn't just be illegal, it should be unconstitutional for any contract or law to provide benefit to one party when another is found guilty of a crime.

    6. Re:Poetic justice? by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Slavery is a terrific way of doing business! That is unless you are the one made into a slave, in which case it is brutally unfair and inhumane.

    7. Re:Poetic justice? by Tiger4 · · Score: 4, Informative
      No, something out of the Eisenhower Administration. Yes Ike, the guy that lead the Allied Forces to victory over the Nazis.

      Back when he was President, the Office of Management and Budget first cam up with Circular A-76. It describes what is, and is not, an "inherently governmental activity". If it is inherently governmental, then an actual government employee must do it. Things like signing contracts, signing checks or handing out money, formally making arrests, sentencing convicts. But other than those kinds of things, a contractor can be used, since the work is essentially just administrative and not decision making. It is a bit of a slippery scale, and politics jumps in there too, but that is the basis for it.

      Usually A-76 is just used to decide if a US government agency should be closed, downsized and contracted out. But the flip side of it is that if an agency wants to expend, they can use it for justifying hiring a contractor to do the extra work. Ever since Reagan this has been the preferred way to do any sort of new work in the US government. The Iraq War took it to new levels, with paid contractors being deployed to do as much work as soldiers, marines, and airmen.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    8. Re:Poetic justice? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They corrupted the judgment system and left psychological scars on 5000 people, and they did it for profit.

      They should be executed. If they are not executed by the system, then they should be executed by the people, lynch mob style.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    9. Re:Poetic justice? by spydabyte · · Score: 1

      While an excellent book, the first modern thing that came to my mind was Death Race, the recent motion picture.

    10. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Isn't that the whole point of damages?

    11. Re:Poetic justice? by Scrameustache · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison.

      It is the sole duty of the operators of a commercial prison to maximize revenue for the shareholders.

      That is at odds with the purpose of the law, which is (theoretically) to uphold justice.

      As long as there is money to be made from incarcerating people, you WILL have sentences that will send people to prison who should not be there. Corruption is inevitable when the incentive exists.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    12. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous+Codger · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have a relative serving time in a commercially-run prison. Besides this being a totally repugnant concept to begin with, the way the prison corporation profits off the inmates and their families is unreal. For example, inmate phone calls to family are charged at $16 per half hour. Inmates must buy their personal supplies through a commissary run by the corporation at horribly inflated prices. Luxury items like TVs or guitars, and school supplies must be purchased through a special catalog, again at inflated prices.

      You might say, "oh, they're criminals, they deserve to be soaked." But in reality it's the families who are being soaked, even though, in many cases, they are the victims of the inmate's crimes, or are suffering from lack of the inmate's income or parenting or whatever.

      It's a completely immoral way to make a buck. The owners and executives of these prison corporations are no better than the inmates they are incarcerating.

      --
      No sig? Sigh...
    13. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fortress wasn't "really bad"!

    14. Re:Poetic justice? by Tiger4 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      No damages are a civil tool to compensate one person when another has injured them (or their assets) in some way. No one goes to jail over damages. Unless they fail to pay them, in which case that person has insulted the court, which would be criminal contempt.

      Damages, on the other hand, is an excellent excuse to see Glenn Close and Rose Byrne in action. Legally flimsy, but cute nonetheless.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    15. Re:Poetic justice? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most states contract out almost all of their juvenile detention facilities to counties or private contractors. Very few states actually maintain centralized direct control over their juvenile justice facilities. I'm proud to say my state of South Carolina is among them (one of the few things we do right). In SC only a couple of wilderness camps and two small pre-trial detention facilities are not under direct control by the state. This has allowed the state to maintain a record of no juvenile escapes from long-term facilities for over 6 years and no allegations of abuse or lawsuits in any facilities since 2003 (very few juvenile justice systems in the country can claim a record of over five years without even an ALLEGATION of abuse or mistreatment).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    16. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like the California Correctional Officers Union? ;)

    17. Re:Poetic justice? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      I once worked at a privately run non-profit institution. I think the key is that it is non-profit, and most of the board members were also city leaders. None of the board was paid for their services, aside from a good meal a the board meeting once a month. From a money standpoint it didn't matter how many convictions there were, there were always plenty of inmates to go around, the city and state contracts simply specified how many we would get.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    18. Re:Poetic justice? by WoRLoKKeD · · Score: 1

      "Welcome to Central Industrial. Part of Correctional Services' rapidly expanding network of new-generation facilities dedicated to the future of humane containment!"

      --
      Immolation is the sincerest form of flattery.
    19. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      watch it, the slashdot libertarian crowd is going to hammer you.

      Didn't you know, privatizing always makes everything better.

    20. Re:Poetic justice? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      What difference does it make who runs the prisons, so long as they don't also run the courts?

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    21. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      it's a prison - their job is to lock people up - how do you make a private prison without paying them for locking people up? and before you say flat fee - what happens when the prison is full and you need another one?

      The problem is most certainly that it was commercially operated. Prisons are right up there on the list of things that should never be privatized with soldiering and compliance auditing.

    22. Re:Poetic justice? by Alinabi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison. The problem is that the payment structure was set up in such a way as to benefit the operator for an increased number of incarcerations

      How could you set up a commercially operated prison such that the operator would not benefit from an increased number of incarcerations?

      --
      "You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
    23. Re:Poetic justice? by akboss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wow are you behind the times. Corrections has always been looking for a way to shave a penny here and there. Inmates are routinely charged for incidentals like soap/toothpaste/toothbrush/etc. Commissary goods usually by law have to be sold at the prevailing rate that they are sold outside the walls. Luxury items like tv's...hmmmm when was the last time you saw a clear case TV? Radio? Of course they cost more. Where a privately run prison makes it money is 1)lower staff pay,2)no bennies for staff,3)streamlined operations,and 4)large numbers of inmates. Private prisons are not where a contractor walks in, kicks all the state workers out and takes over a prison. They build them from the ground up using their cash. Some to the tune of 10's of millions of dollars. Then they proceed to penny pinch everything from staff to food to which inmates they will accept from which states. They like states that pay them high $$ and shun those that dont.

      --
      "Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
    24. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice strawman. Why don't you open a book once in a while and actually learn about the ideas you're trying to discredit rather than trolling on slashdot?

    25. Re:Poetic justice? by Spatial · · Score: 0

      What's the point of that?

      Maybe you'd have a point if the public had to intervene - if there was no other recourse - but as is stands the damage is done and they've been caught. None of it will be fixed by killing them in some brutish rage.

    26. Re:Poetic justice? by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      What difference does it make who runs the prisons, so long as they don't also run the courts?

      The people running the prisons might give kickbacks to the people running the courts.
      You know, like what happened in this story you're commenting on.

    27. Re:Poetic justice? by level4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that will undo everything, will it? All those kids will be A-OK again?

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      This is a terrible crime against society, I agree, and the punishment should be banishment. The system we have for that is called prison, and they should be going there for a very long time.

      While they're there, society should find a way to make sure that such a thing never happens again.

      This is the proper way to do things. Merely calling for the guilty parties' deaths is a simplistic, brutal way to conduct proceedings that should be nothing but a memory of the dark ages.

      --
      Let my new 7-digit UID be a lesson to all - write down your passwords.
    28. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I consider myself mostly libertarian, and I find myself in complete agreement with drinkypoo. The privatization I mostly see is one where the profits are privatized, but the costs are spread to the taxpayer. Privatized prisons are a horrific idea. If we make incarceration profitable we will get more of it. Prisons should be costly, ugly, and damaging to communities so that perhaps we consider a little more carefully if a person really needs to be locked up.

    29. Re:Poetic justice? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I don't think your experience is unique to privately-run prisons. I heard (from someone who worked with prisoners) that state prisons near me have similar arrangements -- the prisoners and their families are forced to buy phone cards, and items to be sent to the prisoner from companies that are owned by the prison officers.

      Essentially, the prisons are not run for correctional purposes, but rather to benefit the "corrections officers" and their families.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    30. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

      Also operated on commercial grounds? Because the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

      The Visitor wasn't science fiction - they did a pretty good job of portraying a real commercial prison.

      Welcome to the U.S. of A. land of the fee, home of the depraved?

    31. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1, Insightful

      sorry AC, have you seen some of our Austrian school commentators around here? Does the phrase laissez faire mean anything to you? Nothing is sacred in (some) libertarian circles, from justice to environmental controls, everything can be done better privately than publicly. Hell, private soldiering is blasé now.

      Besides, the ideas have done a great job of discrediting themselves over the last 6 months - I just like to poke at the hopelessly naive and the dangerous ideologues from time to time.

    32. Re:Poetic justice? by BigZaphod · · Score: 1

      Is it better when they are limited by the books they read?

    33. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's the point of that? Maybe you'd have a point if the public had to intervene - if there was no other recourse - but as is stands the damage is done and they've been caught. None of it will be fixed by killing them in some brutish rage.

      In a system that doles out capital punishment, I think the broken cogs in that system could use some strong incentive to behave properly. If (when?) there's profits to be made in execution, the wronged will be more than emotionally scarred.

    34. Re:Poetic justice? by DeadChobi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd rather have them put down because they're expensive to keep and likely to perform similar crimes in the future. Plus, I'd be more inclined to accept your point of view if 87 months weren't a little over 7 years. Considering the life-changing impact that being a ward of the juvenile penal system has, 87 months is a tiny little sliver of their lives. In a perfect world they would have to spend the rest of their lives making restitution. I suppose being in with the adult criminals is as good as being in with the juvenile criminals, though. Either way they get to see what kind of culture they've exposed their "charges" to.

      In an ideal world perhaps every judge should spend a night a month observing a jail so that they understand better the environment to which they're sentencing people.

      --
      SRSLY.
    35. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison. The problem is that the payment structure was set up in such a way as to benefit the operator for an increased number of incarcerations. It shouldn't just be illegal, it should be unconstitutional for any contract or law to provide benefit to one party when another is found guilty of a crime.

      Should be illegal - yes, might be made illegal in the next decade, yes. Might be implemented before we are all dead? Doubtful.

    36. Re:Poetic justice? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is the sole duty of the operators of a commercial prison to maximize revenue for the shareholders.

      Sigh... I keep seeing that sentiment here, and it still remains untrue.

      Most corporations operate this way in spirit, but not all. By nature, public corporations act this way... but prison corps (even when publically held) are not as sensitive to market forces (and therefore maximization of profits), since their survival (and thus profits) comes from exclusive government contract, not from a free market.

      The truth of the matter is that corporations are free to act in whatever way they choose wrt profit, as long as it is established in the corporate charter. Public companies act to maximize profit because to do otherwise spells D-O-O-M for their stock. But there are some very visible counter-examples, such as 'green' corporations who make exceptions to profit-maximization in order to be environmentally responsible... and since it's in the charter, no shareholder can take civil action against them for failure to make decisions in the interests of the shareholders.

      We need to expect more from the corporations that have so much influence on our government, and part of that is expecting them to see beyond this quarter's profits, and part of it is having them recognize the value of acting responsibly. This last part can be done in two ways -- reward them for responsible behavior, or punish them for irresponsible behavior. Only when they factor in this additional cost/revenue can we have faith in them to act responsibly.

      In this case, the prison company should be forced to make restitution to all people sentenced in this kickback scheme, and to the public for the cost of incarceration, as well as the additional costs we'll bear as a result of the incarceration. Ideally this would bankrupt the company, so another one would get to fill the spot (with hopefully more responsible decision-makers).

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    37. Re:Poetic justice? by edbob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, but it would act as an actual deterrent to future judges that might get similar ideas. The problem with capital punishment is that it is applied incorrectly to act as a deterrent. If someone thinks that the world would be better off without someone in it, one might think that it would be worth one's own life to rid the world of such a person. I doubt that many people would think that it would be worth risking their own lives to receive a kickback. Public officials need to be held to a higher standard. While I don't normally believe that the death penalty is effective, perhaps it should be used for public officials who abuse their authority.

    38. Re:Poetic justice? by pherthyl · · Score: 1

      >> This is a terrible crime against society, I agree, and the punishment should be banishment. The system we have for that is called prison, and they should be going there for a very long time.

      And that will undo everything, will it? All those kids will be A-OK again?

      Don't pretend that prison is an answer here. Same as capital punishment it just "feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge." Let's toss them in prison and throw away the key! Not much different really.

      >> While they're there, society should find a way to make sure that such a thing never happens again.

      Well the first step should be to abolish commercial prisons, but of course we can't do that because we need them all to house the people we just tossed in there right?

    39. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is that the perversion of our criminal justice system is so great a crime that it warrants us perverting the criminal justice system to punish it?

      Did you work for the Bush administration?

    40. Re:Poetic justice? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice strawman. Why don't you open a book once in a while and actually learn about the ideas you're trying to discredit rather than trolling on slashdot?

      Libertarian ideas are toxic to well organized minds. Nobody sane wants to damage their brains that badly. Also, as libertarian ideas do not have any credit to begin with, there's nothing to discredit. But a lot to make fun of, kind of like making fun of people who believe other incredibly dumb things, like creationism, the moon landing was a hoax, or the earth is flat.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    41. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How could a commercially operated prison _not_ benefit by increased incarcerations? Likewise how can any commercial benefit from imprisonment or prisoner's labor not be expected to lead to bribery and corruption as a side effect?

    42. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the sole duty... _where consistent with ethics_, a responsibility owned by everyone, operator or shareholder, regardless of whether the other party thinks so.

    43. Re:Poetic justice? by phulegart · · Score: 1

      Prison Guards benefit from having a job, because someone was found guilty.
      Victims benefit from knowing justice was served in a case where someone was found guilty.

      Oh, you don't mean that... you mean the OTHER people that benefit...

      --
      "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -D. Adams
    44. Re:Poetic justice? by zehaeva · · Score: 3, Interesting

      you know that makes me think, why dont we do old fashion banishment anymore? just kick them out of the country "We'll send you to any country of your choice with just the clothes on your back, and you can never set foot here again on penalty of death(or whatever)"

    45. Re:Poetic justice? by TarnVeda · · Score: 0

      I find that tag intriguing - where is it from?

    46. Re:Poetic justice? by securitytech · · Score: 1

      I disagree that it should be unconstitutional for incentive based investigation/prosecution in all cases. One of the better suggestion on how to restructure the SEC was to give incentives to investigators for each big case they successfully prosecute. Without this, we will never see SEC investigators constantly willing to take down billionaires like Madoff due to the consequences/blacklisting they face from doing so.

      But I do agree with prohibiting it in cases like these, or even in most cases. I also agree that these judges should never see the light of day again.

    47. Re:Poetic justice? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      The point is not to undo anything. Nothing can be undone. The point is to permanently remove malignant antisocial entities from the society with assurances that they will not resurface.

      To allow a system which is corrupt to deal with its own corruption fixes nothing. The people must deal with the system with their own hands, they must be connected to the events. They must grow up and take responsibility for their society, or they will continue to be trampled by it.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    48. Re:Poetic justice? by drew · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, the accused judges shut down the original county run detention center, and argued that their only remaining option was to use the newly built private prison. It sounds as though it's doubtful that the commercial center would exist at all if it wasn't for the actions of these men. So while I agree with you that paying them in a way that benefits the operator for in increased number of convictions is not a good thing, I don't think that was the only problem here.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    49. Re:Poetic justice? by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What's the point of that?

      Well, it'd serve as a pretty stern warning to any future malfeasance.

      There are a few crimes that directly attack the structure of our democratic system. For regular citizens, it's treason. This behvavior is tantamount to treason for a sitting judge. Ciavarella directly undermined and knowingly contradicted the justice system for his own personal gain. Under these circumstances, I don't think execution is that outrageous a suggestion.

    50. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Essentially, the prisons are not run for correctional purposes, but rather to benefit the "corrections officers" and their families.

      There is a word for that: Corruption.

    51. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But commercial hospitals are ok? I mean why cure them when your paid by patient. Its the shareholders/companies fundamental right to maximize profit.

      I don't get America.

    52. Re:Poetic justice? by gurps_npc · · Score: 2, Insightful
      First, I agree that capital punishment is not a good idea. Second, your statements are NOT insightful, they are rathan balan and would convince me to be in favor of capital punishment if I did not know more about it.

      1. You make the typical, rather foolish and blatantly wrong argument that "capital punishment solves nothing." No. It solves several problems. It punishes the guilty, prevents them from re-offending, and reduces our overpopulation problem. What you MEANT to say was that "it is not more effective than prison at preventing crime". As long people foolishly exxagerate the minor problems of capital punishment, you undermine our case. The problem with capital punishment is NOT that it is infective. It works, but not well.

      2. The problem with Captial Punishment is two fold: A. Our legal system is imperfect and routinely convicts innocent people. DNA evidence indicates that around 5% of convictions are false. Killing the innocent means we get no opportunity to correct our mistakes. B. It is INSUFFICIENT penalty for the worst crimes. I want the SOBs that rape and kill children to be permenatly locked in prision and PREVENTED from killing themselves.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    53. Re:Poetic justice? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Because the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

      It's true that bad (or at least low-budget) science fiction movies seem to have be the best predictor of contemporary America. See Tim Krieder's commentary from a few years ago:

      Death Race 2000 has proved to be startlingly prescient, not just in its premise that the nation's masses are obsessed with a spectacular and violent car race but down to the throwaway joke that all our problems, from terrorism to the economy, are blamed on "our enemies, the French." Aaron and I were reflecting that all those dystopian science-fiction films of the Seventies prepared us well for the day when we would grow up to live in one. Always in these films everyone except the hero accepts the oppressive and soulless society in which they live as inevitable and right, an obvious improvement over the messy old world of poverty and struggle--as Jonathan E.'s wife says in the best line in Rollerball: "comfort is freedom." And always, too, there's a scene in which the hero asks, "Were things always like this? How did they get this way? This isn't how people should live!"

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    54. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Libertarian ideas are toxic to well organized minds. Nobody sane wants to damage their brains that badly. Also, as libertarian ideas do not have any credit to begin with, there's nothing to discredit. But a lot to make fun of, kind of like making fun of people who believe other incredibly dumb things, like creationism, the moon landing was a hoax, or the earth is flat.

      Speaking of strawmen...

    55. Re:Poetic justice? by edward2020 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Also, this is one area where deterrence could actually work. Since deterrence requires a rational actor, it is ludicrous to imagine that, for example, cracked-out purveyors of street crime would modify their behavior b/c of the death penalty. But... these "gentlemen" are rational actors and those in the same position as them are as well. These types do respond to deterrence.

      Responding to level4 - criminal justice is not about making it right for the victims (that's what their civil cases will be about). You say that society should come up with a way to eliminate these things from happening in the future. Now, a little thought experiment; assume that executing these judges would deter other judges from doing the same things. Shouldn't we hang them then? I'd argue that if in their deaths, they deter this behavior in the future, that this is probably the only redemption they'll ever get (the rat-fink-fucking-bastards).

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    56. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't agree with capital punishment, but in cases like this, I'd make an exception. Any government official, be they a cop, a politician, a prosecutor, or a judge, found to be, in any way, abusing their power, should be sentenced to death. And no appeals either. They go straight from sentencing to the execution chamber. No waiting. Furthermore, I'd seize ALL of their assets and turn them over to the people they have wronged.

      I'd start with these judges. And add on kidnapping charges, just to make it worse.

    57. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll send them back. There are no more penal colonies.

    58. Re:Poetic justice? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      No no no. You are presenting rational and well-thought out libertarian ideas. Slashdot prefers the dyed-in-the-wool batshit crazy kind since this makes them feel both superior and special.

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    59. Re:Poetic justice? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      I'm constantly amazed at the number of Americans who do not understand the difference between criminal and civil law. Public education, anyone?

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    60. Re:Poetic justice? by TarnVeda · · Score: 0
      Okay, I'm not American, nor am I fully versed in American law, jurisprudence or Constitution. But isn't it written somewhere in your constitution that no person shall be denied life liberty etc, except by due process of law.

      In this case, the due process was tainted by the judges payback from a corporation to send victims^H^H^H^H^H^H convictees to their facility for their own profit, and the judges profit as well. Having received 2.6 million in payback indicates that he sent a LOT of children there.

      All of this judges decisions need to be reviewed, to see how many children were sent to these facilities unnecessarily, such as the student in the article. The children should be recompensed for their suffering and unconstitutional abridgment of their freedom for what is generally considered a misdemeanor, resulting in either warnings or community service, not incarceration.

      Do it for the children!

    61. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      There is a structural problem with libertarianism in that the downside risks will never justify the potential upside gains. Every single time there is a financial crisis, you hear the same refrain, "too big to fail, too big to fail," and that's how profit is privatized and debt nationalized. Maybe in a cottage industry setting where we didn't experience cascading failures we'd pay more attention to libertarian ideas (but even then you still have those pesky workers rights issues) but in the modern global economy libertarianism is hazardous to our health, wealth, and life.

      Again, those still espousing those ideas are either hopelessly naive, or are positioned to end up in the top 1% with the inevitable stratifying of wealth that accompanies execution of libertarian ideas.

    62. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.
      It is EVERYWHERE.

    63. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kind of like the competing interests in the health care system. Insurance companies can't maximize profits for shareholders when they're paying out on pesky claims for their paying customers. There is a competition of interests at play. The health insurance company has to balance the service they owe to their customers by contractual obligation as well as the fiduciary responsibilities they have to shareholders.

      And not only that but most hospitals are now privately held, rather than charity operated. And physicians want to make money too. All this profiteering just makes things so complicated.

    64. Re:Poetic justice? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Commercial prisons, just like Military Contractors/Security consultants. Are a great Scapegoat for politicians. If the plan work and it is a success then they get the credit for the Success. If it failed and bombs or something horrible happens then they blame the evil corporation for the problems.

      And why do they go back to the same companies when something goes wrong... Because for the most part the Companies did what they were told, and are willing to be the Evil Corporation just as long as the bills are paid. While Politicians need to look clean and flawless.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    65. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might say, "oh, they're criminals, they deserve to be soaked."

      No, I wouldn't. Considering how many US inmates are locked up for victimless crimes -- meaning crimes against government, not against any actual human being -- I certainly wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption.

      The US now has the highest incarceration rate (per population) in the entire world, and it's climbing every year. Either there's an ridiculous disproportion of bad guys in the US compared to the rest of the world, or the power pyramid is making billions per year on the business of law enforcement. Guess which is more likely.

    66. Re:Poetic justice? by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 0

      If the Commercially run prison can have no influence on who or ho many people are sent to jail or to which jail then they can operate commercially and have no effect on the justice system

      If they have the ability to influence the judges in their sentencing or influence where people are sent then they should not be run commercially .... ...this is another argument for old fashioned British judges who were always laughed at for being out of touch ... but it made them very hard to influence

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    67. Re:Poetic justice? by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      It is bad. The Wyatt Detention Facility in Central Falls, RI is a privately owned and run correctional facility used mostly for Federal inmates. Well, that was before they let a guy in their custody die. Now it's shut down, not a soul in there.

    68. Re:Poetic justice? by Spatial · · Score: 1

      Well, it'd serve as a pretty stern warning to any future malfeasance.

      So is the loss of career and freedom. Do you feel that's only getting off lightly? It's life-ruining, a terrible thing to inflict. That's why we're all pissed at the judges in the first place, because they did such a severe thing to others wrongfully.

      I think it's enough of a deterrant. It's a big deal, it's severe, it hurts like hell for a long long time. Killing them is a step too far away from necessity, in my eyes, a step too far into the barbaric.

    69. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually A-76 is just used to decide if a US government agency should be closed, downsized and contracted out.

      A US government agency being closed?!?

      Now that's something out of a science fiction novel.

    70. Re:Poetic justice? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'd rather have them put down because they're expensive to keep and likely to perform similar crimes in the future.

      You should read some statistics. Turns out, between the appeals processes necessary to hopefully ensure you don't accidentally murder an innocent person, and the costs involved in actually killing them, it ends up costing *more* to execute someone than it does to just imprison them for life. And, as an added bonus, there's no take-backsies if it turns out you fucked up somewhere along the line.

    71. Re:Poetic justice? by NinjaCoder · · Score: 1
      When are you against capital punishment then? The strongest case against it has always been the 'killing the wrong guy' issue, imho, and this would seem to still have that possibility. Maybe even more so, since it's likely a paper-trail that gave him away. (ie could be forged).

      Just curious.

    72. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then check this out: http://www.againstpuryear.org/

      Nice. He'd fit well in a distopian SF movie.

      Put him and the story about the convicted judge together, and you'd have a movie script that nobody would believe.

      What's next? Privatised police force? Privatised military? (Well, there's Blackwater.) Voting machines are already produced for profit. I guess privatised Congress is next?

    73. Re:Poetic justice? by ShadeOfBlue · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I agree Libertarianism can be taken too far, that doesn't mean free market principles are inherently so terribly misguided.

      Take a look on youtube at guys like Peter Schiff - who nailed the current economic collapse years in advance based on free market principles. The fact is Bush et. al. weren't even remotely interested in running a true free market, and in trying to quiet the economic grumblings following the dot-com-bubble-bursting set the stage for an even bigger crisis.

      The failure of a shitty implementation of an idea by a government only paying lip-service to the idea and known for not letting go of power is hardly an indictment of the idea itself.

      The other side of the coin is that a free market does need to prevent fraud, but again the government seems only weakly interested in such things. People had been trying to blow open the Madoff scam for years, but for some reason the SEC didn't want to pay attention

    74. Re:Poetic justice? by mea37 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, because you fear that a judge might corruptly impose a death penalty some day, we should treat these judges as proxies for your hypothetical judge and punish them more severely than their actual crimes merit?

      Of cousre, these judges wouldn't be handling death penalty cases. (Not to mention death sentences are generally handed out by a jury, not a judge.) And although they've shown the moral flexibility to either convince themselves that imprisoning these kids was ok, or to not care if it was ok, that's not enough to infer that they would send a person to death.

      A person is not the system of which he is a part. I agree with those who think a judge should be held to a high standard -- that he or she accepts greater responsibility in exchange for his or her authority. However, a judge is still a human with basic rights. The punishment has to fit the crime actually committed (not the worst-case scenario that we can somehow call similar), and while this crime was severe, it does not warrant a death sentence.

    75. Re:Poetic justice? by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      Maybe some people just think that feeding and supporting people who commit crimes for the rest of their lives is not really efficient. Instead of lifetime prison there should be just quick painless death, for example by suffocating them with pure nitrogen (it's CO2 which makes you gasp for air).

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    76. Re:Poetic justice? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      Because we don't have penal colonies.

      If we don't want them, why should someone else?

    77. Re:Poetic justice? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      If you think we did away with slavery in the USA, think again.

      I'm thinking...I got nothing.
      Where do we have slavery in the USA?

    78. Re:Poetic justice? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Really? And which libertarian/Austrian concepts led to our current predicament? The ones seeking a strong and stable money supply that can't be manipulated by politicians? The ones that would clamp down on fraud, both in the financial sector and in governance? Or the ones that would not prop up failed businesses at the expense of everyone else?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    79. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm certainly not arguing for a control economy - but what we need is effective (not necessarily more, not less) government oversight. The whole idea is that if we think that e.g. the banking sector is so indispensable that it must be propped up at all costs (which it probably is) we damn well ought to be making sure they don't do objectively stupid things like leverage themselves 40:1 - and paying themselves billions for driving the company into the ground. There's little mystery why the W administration was only weakly interested in such things - they didn't think government could work.

      Why people would continue to vote for candidates who's position is that the office they're running for is ineffective is beyond me.

    80. Re:Poetic justice? by DeskLazer · · Score: 1

      clearly, you haven't heard of canada. or australia ;)

    81. Re:Poetic justice? by spun · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to conflate relatively sane beliefs like 'the moon landing was a hoax,' 'God buried dinosaur bones to confuse us' or 'the earth is flat' with completely insane beliefs like 'an unregulated market is the best for everyone.'

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    82. Re:Poetic justice? by Mannerism · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A most American sentiment, and not surprisingly endorsed by feedback. First: the rest of the world is not a sort of circle of hell into which sinners fear to be thrown. Many of us are quite happy to live here, thank you, and so presumably would be your criminals. Second: the rest of the world is not available for the free use of America. Your suggestion assumes that your exile's "country of choice" would accept him. I rather suspect they'd put him on the next flight home, with an order via diplomatic channels for America to solve her own problems in her own land.

    83. Re:Poetic justice? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      This begs the question: Who would accept them?

    84. Re:Poetic justice? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you feel that's only getting off lightly?

      Their failed justice sent undeserving people to PMITA prison and their butts with the Constitution. They abused their authority over the lives of their subjects for nothing but money. In this case, yes, I think prison is a light sentence for them.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    85. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      Fixed fees.

      More prisoners, same dollars.

    86. Re:Poetic justice? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      They corrupted the judgment system and left psychological scars on 5000 people, and they did it for profit.

      Agreed. Maybe now you understand some of the many problems with the criminal justice system in the US, it's too easily circumvented and can lead to innocent people being imprisoned or executed.

      They should be executed.

      OK, guess you missed the point. Yes, these two are (allegedly) bad apples and need to be punished (if they are convicted). But you obviously missed the fact that there are 5000 people who were innocent of a crime and were imprisoned. It takes more than just two people to manage something like that, it takes an entire system built on a faulty premise in the first place. Killing these two losers won't solve that, and empowering the state to take their lives (or anyone's, for that matter) would only make things worse in the long run.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    87. Re:Poetic justice? by doug · · Score: 2, Funny

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      I thought it reduced the rate of recidivism and repeat offenders.

    88. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      One of the better suggestion on how to restructure the SEC was to give incentives to investigators for each big case they successfully prosecute. Without this, we will never see SEC investigators constantly willing to take down billionaires like Madoff due to the consequences/blacklisting they face from doing so.

      Letting guilty people get away with it is preferable to giving prosecutors incentive to take down innocent people. This is one of the founding principles of our government.

      What you have listed isn't one of the "better" suggestions. It's unconscionable.

    89. Re:Poetic justice? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      That could happen just as easily in government-run prisons, though. The problem of court corruption is a separate matter.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    90. Re:Poetic justice? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      No, why would I want to go to a X-pen-
      Ohhh.

      Fine, I guess I should have said, we don't STILL have penal colonies.
      Or. How would you feel if another country started shipping its criminals to you.

    91. Re:Poetic justice? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 3, Informative

      clearly, you haven't heard of canada.

      Canada ***NEVER*** was a penal colony. And especially not during the french regime: every colonist had to show a certificate of morality signed by the priest and the lord in order to be allowed on the ship.

    92. Re:Poetic justice? by mbone · · Score: 1

      Ideally this would bankrupt the company

      That, IMHO, should be required in this case, not a possible side effect.

    93. Re:Poetic justice? by DeadChobi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh, okay, well there goes that part of my argument. One could argue that there is no take-backsies if you fuck up and imprison someone for a good part of their natural life either, but that's immaterial, considering that my principal argument is about money. Due process is important to me too, so I can see your point.

      --
      SRSLY.
    94. Re:Poetic justice? by rtechie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      What is the point of prison? This is a philosophical question and the answer to this determines whether or not you think the death penalty is a bad idea.

      One view is that prisons are "banishment" as you describe. The purpose of prison is, in theory, to simply separate the criminal from the rest of society with the primary goal of protecting the society from the criminal. No attempt is made to change the criminal in any significant way. This is the European model.

      Another view is that prison is punishment. Criminals are intended to suffer while in prison. Society is protected by deterrence, knowing the punishment that faces them criminals will be less likely to offend or re-offend. In such as system corporal punishment, especially execution, is preferred because it has a dramatic impact and it's cheaper.

      The American system combines both aspects. Criminals are separated from society for very long periods in jails where they're tortured. We, as a society, have decided this is the way to go.

      There are numerous other theories. Prisons were originally designed around the concept of penance. A prisoner would be confined with the Bible and required to take religious instruction. It's assumed the prisoner will eventually repent their sins and adopt a virtuous life whereupon they are released.

      Now, if you don't believe that deterrence works on criminals (Either it works or it doesn't, you can't say that "fear of jail" works but "fear of death" doesn't) then you shouldn't support the death penalty because it won't deter criminals.

      This is completely separate from questions on the application of the death penalty. Namely that only extremely poor mostly non-white men are executed in the USA. These judges DO NOT meet that criteria, which is why they can't get the death penalty. Even if they committed mass murders on national TV.

    95. Re:Poetic justice? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Is there a version of that website before a tornado hit it? Like one that starts out describing its point?

    96. Re:Poetic justice? by Alinabi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then the govt. would have an incentive to send as many people as possible to the joint, to maximize their bang for the buck, so we end up with the same result. You've only shifted the incentive from one side, to the other.

      --
      "You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
    97. Re:Poetic justice? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sure they lose their career, but they lose very little freedom. And lets face it, they were pulling in millions of dollars. 3 years in prison isn't much deterrent when the payout reaches millions of dollars.

      What if they stashed the money away (It doesn't sound like they are paying it back). I'd LOVE to be fired and still be sitting on 500k-1million dollars.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    98. Re:Poetic justice? by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >>>So is the loss of career and freedom. Do you feel that's only getting off lightly? It's life-ruining, a terrible thing to inflict.

      Not really. The Illinois Governor was impeached, but he's still sitting fat & happy thanks to the wealth accumulated. These judges will get off just as lightly. The only proper punishment for a politician who abused the trust of his employer (the People) is what happened to the French King circa 1790 and the Italian Dictator circa 1945. Death.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    99. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      Prison Guards benefit from having a job, because someone was found guilty.

      That's an indirect benefit. Much different from a contract that essentially says "you get paid $x * number of prisoners" or "you get promoted if you prosecute x number of cases that hand down a guilty verdict" or even "You have a quota. Hand out x number of speeding tickets this week or you're fired". There's no way for an individual guard to know that they're going to benefit from an incarceration without conspiring with a third party.

      Victims benefit from knowing justice was served in a case where someone was found guilty.

      Last I checked, we had a criminal justice system, not a criminal vengeance system. The feelings of the victims should never be taken into account in the prosecution of a case. The courts should do what is best for our society, and apply the laws of the land. In a criminal case, if they're taking anybody's feelings into account, they're doing it wrong.

      Oh, you don't mean that... you mean the OTHER people that benefit...

      You don't need to put words in my mouth just because you can't comprehend that I actually meant what I said.

    100. Re:Poetic justice? by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Concept? Reality. It's called outsourcing or privatization, and the trend has been going on for years. We're all getting screwed by it three different ways all at once. Sounds like sexy fun, but it's not.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    101. Re:Poetic justice? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge

      Yes. If I was victim of one of these corrupt judges and had to waste several months or years in the hell called "juvie", then yes I'd want my revenge. Death to the Tyrants. Same thing that People have done to kings and dictators for years. They deserve it.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    102. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the ones that called government "interferences" like regulating CDSs and MBSs abhorrent obstructions to delicate market signals.

    103. Re:Poetic justice? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      This begs the question: Who would accept them?

      Israel is pretty a good choice when it comes to injustice.

    104. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the only way to strike fear into this sort of person is to hand out sentences where they are temporarily stripped of their assets and forced to live on minimum wage for the length of their sentence. That should go for pretty much any white collar crime.

    105. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison.

      It is the sole duty of the operators of a commercial prison to maximize revenue for the shareholders.

      Even if that were true, if revenues and profits for the company running the prison weren't linked to the number of prisoners, then there's no conflict of interest. In fact, if the contract specified a fixed fee for running the facility, the company would have incentive to keep people out rather than trying to get more people in.

    106. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      it's a prison - their job is to lock people up - how do you make a private prison without paying them for locking people up?

      Flat fee.

      and before you say flat fee

      Too late.

      - what happens when the prison is full and you need another one?

      Open bidding on a new contract for another one. There would never be a guarantee that getting your facility to overflow would net you another contract.

    107. Re:Poetic justice? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It only takes the cost of a few bullets if the execution is performed by the People. "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." -- Founder of the Democratic Party, Thomas Jefferson, to James Madison, January 30, 1787. "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787

      Judges and other government employees who abuse the trust of their employers (the People) deserve only one outcome. No "golden parachutes" or other means of escape.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    108. Re:Poetic justice? by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      While there is some truth to your point as it would apply to corporations in general, I don't think that makes a very good case that privatizing what have long been considered core government functions is a good idea, which is how I read the GP's post.

      I (and, I suspect, even the majority of free market proponents) would not like the idea of privatizing the police or courts. Indeed, I think even publicly-run police and courts using fines and forfeiture as revenue tools has been an unduly corrupting force on our justice system. If privatizing the police and courts is not a good idea, why would privatizing the prison system be?

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    109. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I don't know -- some of those other countries get pissy about the death penalty.

    110. Re:Poetic justice? by McDutchie · · Score: 1

      Because we don't have penal colonies.

      You could have fooled me...

    111. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, FAIL.
      In almost every state, once a felon has served their time, they can vote again. The few exceptions are for state elections only, they cans till vote in federal elections.

    112. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      maximize their bang for the buck

      You must live under a different government than me.

    113. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital punishment solves nothing

      On the contrary, it permanently removes a (proven by action to be harmful) threat from society, and it also serves as a deterrent against the crime (so that other threats are less likely to arise).

      I would further argue that the inclination to seek revenge is a valuable instinct which gives a survival-advantage. Failing to "strike back" will invariably result in continued and increased suffering on the part of the victim. Knowing that the victim is likely to strike back (with potentially lethal force) makes the perpetrator think twice before committing a harmful act.

      Maybe it is base, but it is also quite practical when properly applied. I, for one, refuse to reject millions of years of survival wisdom just because it doesn't suit your sensibilities.

    114. Re:Poetic justice? by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Capital Punishment is a deterrent, nothing more.

      It does nothing to rehabilitate the accused, doesn't reward or "pay back" society for any injustice. It's just the biggest stick that you can use to say "Don't Do that"

      Anything other than being "for it" or "against it" is simply splitting hairs. If you agree with capital punishment, then you have to accept the possibility that it could happen to you. If you don't, then you have to accept the possibility of higher crime rates.

      Either way, it doesn't bring back anyone from the dead. Victims or criminals.

    115. Re:Poetic justice? by Phred+T.+Magnificent · · Score: 1

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      There's a lot of truth to the saying, "Stone cold dead cuts recidivism by 100%".

      --
      Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
      Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
    116. Re:Poetic justice? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Because it's not generally considered a terribly good idea from a diplomatic point of view to say "Here, take our criminals".

    117. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      So, if someone wrongly incarcerates 5000 people for 3 months each, does it follow that they should be incarcerated themselves for 1250 years? Would that be the punishment fitting the crime?

    118. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital punishment does work when you show it to others. So do other publicly humiliating punishments.

      Take a look at theft rates where they chop your wrist off for it.

      Such is human nature, it's much worse to be publicly punished, than privately. That's why it's been done for thousands of years that way. Physical punishment will never be as effective as both physical and psychological combined.

    119. Re:Poetic justice? by Envy+Life · · Score: 1

      When I first learned of privatized prisons I was flabbergasted. There is no logical rationale for doing this, and this story is a perfect example why.

      Privatization of such has been bleeding into mental institutions, garbage collection, etc., and all have had problems that are as bad as or worse than the problems they were supposed to solve.

      Think long and hard to decide whether it makes sense for any of the 3 I mentioned to be for-profit companies: prisons, mental institutions, garbage collection. If you agree they make sense then I have to assume you're a politician on the payrolls of these corporations.

    120. Re:Poetic justice? by sandysnowbeard · · Score: 1

      Revenge never seeks to nor is able to rectify the damage done. A rational way to deal with these corrupt judges is to ask what example could be made of them that would best deter similar crimes in the future?

      Within the bounds of humane treatment (i.e. no torture), what would people who would unjustly sentence children to prison fear most? Death? Jail time? Public humiliation, such as forced resignation from the bench and bar? I'm not saying the answer is simple, but it's important to think before calling for blood. Also, these criminal trials won't begin to address the flaws in the justice system that allowed these men to suckle from the tits of depravity, nor the emotional scarring done to the kids locked up. There is much to be done.

    121. Re:Poetic justice? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      You could have fooled me...

      Then it looks like I did; try looking up the definition of a penal colony.

      In a penal colony, prisoners do work to sustain the colony.

      Guantonomo is/was? a prison.

      You don't let prisoners whom you want to torture for information do anything (let alone work), because then they might get a feeling of accomplishment. If they feel accomplishment, then they might feel happy/rewarded. You can't break a prisoner that smiles.

    122. Re:Poetic justice? by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      There is a point to excessive violence toward an oppressive system.

      It worked for the French (Bastille Day) and for the USA (Independence Day)

      If judges were in fear for their lives, I bet they'd straighten up and follow the law a little more closely.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    123. Re:Poetic justice? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      just kick them out of the country "We'll send you to any country of your choice with just the clothes on your back, and you can never set foot here again on penalty of death(or whatever)"

      Cute. But that would suggest other countries will not get pissed about us dropping of all our criminals there. I bet even Australia would oppose this behaviour these days :-)

    124. Re:Poetic justice? by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      That is not necessarily true:It is a well established fact that human beings are motivated by the consequences of their actions, be that positive of negative consequences. I am sorry that I am putting it in such high-level form, but it's for brevity.

      Awareness of a certain punishment (whether death is the worst punishment or not, is an argument I won't get into) has an effect on the actions of individuals - the effect of negative consequences of certain actions is such as to decrease the motivation of individuals to perform such actions.

      While there may be a desire for revenge on the part of a victim's family and friends, that does not change the fact that a negative consequence associated with a crime, has a deterrent effect.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    125. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And which country will accept these banished criminals? Maybe the UN can start up a criminal exchange program. Who wants to trade one corrupt judge for two Ecstasy dealers? (And I don't think countries would be "giving away" "desirable" criminals like nuclear physicists caught selling plutonium.) Banishment would encourage international corruption- criminals making deals with poor governments for pleasant relocation after "banishment". It's like the flip side of extradition.

    126. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your argument is that it is grounded in your beliefs. You are blinded by bias.

      Anything short of execution will not deter future corruption. A few years of jail time is considered the price of doing business if caught by criminals of this type. Execution however will more likely deter those already with means from exceeding their office.

      Execution of these assholes would be no more brutal than their greedy contempt for one of the most important pillars of democracy, at the expense of thousands of children's lives none the less.

      Delusional to the last.

    127. Re:Poetic justice? by Essellion · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. I can't help thinking of a quote:
      "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

      As for what would be just in this case, I don't know. I've seen the justice system do some amazingly right things, and heard of others that were terrible and a betrayal of public trust.

      Sadly, it depends on the quality of the judge involved. And a criminal judge can do horrendous damage, both to the people involved, and the justice system itself.

    128. Re:Poetic justice? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I would support capital punishment as a deterrent, but statistically it doesn't actually deter anyone. So no matter how much we hate these people, it's a waste of time. Nothing we do, no matter how vicious, is going to give those 5000 people their time back. All the criminal justice system can do is keep criminals out of circulation, it can't undo the damage.

      From what I understand:
      • The judges involve get disbarred (cannot practice law again).
      • The judges lose their PA state pension for being convicted of a felony.
      • The judges' financial assets are up for grabs in 5000 civil lawsuits from the families and friends of 5000 poor, abused kids.

      These guys, hopefully, will get out of prison in their mid 60s with no job skills they can use, no money, and nothing but Social Security to depend upon. That's probably the best justice we can get. If you believe in God, hope God pays them back.

    129. Re:Poetic justice? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      If you don't, then you have to accept the possibility of higher crime rates.

      That's just it, capital punishment has not been statistically demonstrated to reduce crime rates. Capital punishment deters sane, reasonable people - which aren't the kind of people that commit capital crimes.

      If someone raped or murdered a member of my family, I would be frothing at the mouth screaming for his or her death, and more than willing to personally kill them in retaliation. But it won't undo trauma or bring back the dead.

    130. Re:Poetic justice? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's my understanding from some friends in the Scranton area that the judges are now open to civil lawsuits. So they have 5000 potential plaintiffs who can sue them for damages.

      They also lose their state pensions, and I believe Pennsylvania has a law on the books preventing them from earning any profit from a book deal.

      I hope they end up without a penny.

    131. Re:Poetic justice? by Cat_Byte · · Score: 1
      --
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
    132. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Personal exile isn't nearly as effective a punishment these days. In the middle ages, banishment was a handy tool for eliminating political rivals, preventing them from organizing against you or achieving martyrdom. It was also essentially a death sentence unless the individual in question had powerful allies abroad they could flee to: castle-town dwellers were rarely able to be self-sufficient and the majority of exiles were to remote or wilderness territories.

      Now, banishment in the form of permanent disbarment is both reasonable and expected in this case. I shall be very disappointed if these individuals are ever again permitted to act as a judge in any district.

    133. Re:Poetic justice? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I agree with you 100%... Unfortunately, though, that's not the reality we have to deal with now. We have to make the best of what we have.

      If we're going to discuss an ideal world where public services aren't privatized, we might as well go all the way with the idealism and say there would be no crime :)

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    134. Re:Poetic justice? by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      That can happen no matter who runs the prisons. If you think there's some general method of preventing corruption in human institutions, you're fooling yourself. Badly.

    135. Re:Poetic justice? by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      This is a terrible crime against society, I agree, and the punishment should be banishment.

      And that too would undo everything? You're more reasonable than the GP, but the logical progression would be to inflict no harm on even these (possibly corrupt) judges - the best would be to sack them maybe so they can't cause any more misery in that field. Whatever action is chosen as 'punishment' should never be done for the reason of revenge, but instead as a preventative measure for others not to follow their path.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    136. Re:Poetic justice? by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Prison makes someone go away. If you want them gone away forever, might as well execute them. Depending on their age and life-expectancy, the difference can rack up close to a million in taxpayer dollars, for someone we don't want to ever come out of there anyway.

      Yeah, it's borderline sociopathic, but how is that any different from what they've done, and what prisons are ?

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    137. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the RIAA use that kind of math to justify a theory of damages, they're monsters. But when it's a cause the slash-think likes...?

    138. Re:Poetic justice? by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      And what country would be stupid enough to offer nationality to the prison population of another country. It's not like, say, the USA would offer that to another country like, say, Cuba. You betcha that wouldn't happen no sir-ee

      --
      Nullius in verba
    139. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you expect? They've got a captive audience.

    140. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent UP

    141. Re:Poetic justice? by tengwar · · Score: 1

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      I am reluctant to argue for capital punishment, but I take issue with your word just. I believe that our form of law is a covenant between the state and the people. The people consent to be governed, and to give up certain rights of self-protection and retaliation which they believe themselves to have, in exchange for the protection of an equitable system of law. If the law ceases to satisfy its side of the covenant, the people will believe that the right to revolt, and the rights of self protection and retaliation revert to them.

      Yes, stringing them up would be a simplistic, brutal reversion to the dark ages. But maybe that is the point? These people undermined the law itself, and I believe that is as serious as treason. While I would not sentence them to death myself, I wouldn't shed a tear if their heads ended up on spikes outside the county court.

      Hmm, I'm getting depressingly right-wing in my senescence.

    142. Re:Poetic justice? by Galactic+Dominator · · Score: 1

      let's start with your math:

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=87+%2F+12&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

      Now if that sentence is handed out, the federal minimum is 85%

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=(87+%2F+12)++*+.85&btnG=Search

      and now on to your deterrent statement. While there may be a few exceptions as with anything, most people would rather pay a few million than spend a year, three, or 8 incarcerated. A ten year maximum sentence vs a five year one isn't really going to stop anyone from proceeding with their crime.

      --
      brandelf -t FreeBSD /brain
    143. Re:Poetic justice? by Galactic+Dominator · · Score: 1

      Works great for China, there's no corruption over there.

      --
      brandelf -t FreeBSD /brain
    144. Re:Poetic justice? by McGuirk · · Score: 1

      "Capital Punishment is a deterrent, nothing more."

      Incorrect. It also removes those individuals who are deems too big of a threat to society to be allowed to roam free. People like the pot farmers in Newton County, Arkansas who cut up unlucky travelers who stumble upon their fields and put them in whiskey barrels to hide them. Some people can't be rehabilitated.

      Some don't even need rehabilitation; these are the kind of people who do not have mental problems, but genuinely do not care about others at all. These are the people that prison/rehabilitation won't help. They'll serve their time and go right back to what they were doing. If they've been shown to not have qualms resorting to killing people to achieve their goals in the past, they should not be allowed back into society.

      I feel for people who end up like this, I can't imagine what kind of hell made them that way as a child. Like the dogs who are raised to fight, and beaten by people, and therefore hate people and cannot be adopted after they are rescued. Sometimes you can't help people.

      Capital Punishment is not just a deterrent, it is a last resort precautionary measure. For those out there that cannot be rehabilitated (and commit crimes that would warrant it), or committed too heinous of a crime to ever be trusted again, they must be removed from society permanently. Anything else would be irresponsible.

    145. Re:Poetic justice? by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Well written and I agree completely. It's easy to overreact to situations where a lot of wrong clearly happened and instead we should focus on helping the kids that were wrongly imprisoned in addition to whatever punishment is deemed fit for the judge which appears to be substantial jail-time. Seems pretty tempered to me.

    146. Re:Poetic justice? by Eil · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that it was a commercially operated prison. The problem is that the payment structure was set up in such a way as to benefit the operator for an increased number of incarcerations. It shouldn't just be illegal, it should be unconstitutional for any contract or law to provide benefit to one party when another is found guilty of a crime.

      I don't think most people realize what a huge money-making industry the prison system is. Not only is there a very strong commercial sector built around incarceration, but states and local governments receive loads of funding for every prisoner sent their way.

      A few days ago I read this story of a kid (18 years old) who got sent to prison for a couple months. He and his friends were on a road trip and got pulled over. They weren't speeding or anything and the cop wouldn't tell them why he pulled them over. Near as they can surmise, he only pulled them over because they looked young and had out-of-state plates. After not finding anything wrong with the license or insurance, he orders them out of the car and starts searching their belongings. (Without a warrant, but are you going to challenge a cop when you're a thousand miles from home?)

      So the cop finds drugs in the backpack of one of the friends. The driver had no knowledge of the drugs and barely knew the guy carrying them. Cop arrests all of them. The other passengers were all eventually let go. The druggie turned in his dealer in exchange for probation. The driver, however, got prison. Because having drugs in your car is illegal whether or not you know about them, he got convicted and sent to prison for (I think) around 3 months. This kid was a straight-A college student with ZERO criminal record. The court-appointed lawyer told him that the only way to avoid a prison sentence was to plead guilty, which he did, and still got the prison sentence.

      How's that for a justice system?

    147. Re:Poetic justice? by machine321 · · Score: 1

      Welcome to 21st Century America... get ready for a bumpy ride!

      Please don't say "bumpy ride" and "prison" in the same thread...

    148. Re:Poetic justice? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      according to my broker, I will need roughly 2 million in savings to maintain my current salary upon retirement (not counting SS, which, frankly, I don't)

    149. Re:Poetic justice? by Galactic+Dominator · · Score: 1

      So when many families suffer catastrophic financial difficulties due legal fees and lack of income due to incarceration that's not a consideration? Poverty goes hand in hand with crime and violence and putting family member including young children behind the statistical 8-ball sure isn't helping the overall crime rate. Rehabilitation is a far better option in nearly every circumstance.

      --
      brandelf -t FreeBSD /brain
    150. Re:Poetic justice? by ca111a · · Score: 1

      What country? There isn't that many countries left who will allow immigrants with nothing else but close to just come to live there. On the other hand - if one considers Antarctica to be a country - that could be a reasonable compromise. The prisoners might ask for more close than usual though...

    151. Re:Poetic justice? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding from some friends in the Scranton area that the judges are now open to civil lawsuits. So they have 5000 potential plaintiffs who can sue them for damages.

      They also lose their state pensions, and I believe Pennsylvania has a law on the books preventing them from earning any profit from a book deal.

      I hope they end up without a penny.

      As do I, what they did offends me on almost every level. Corruption and greed that funded itself based on sending people into incarceration sickens me.

      However, my post was made on the premise of stashed money. What civil suit can keep them from going overseas and cracking open their hidden savings?

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    152. Re:Poetic justice? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      In grade-school there was a school aid (Mrs. Moses). Her son was on death row. I found this out watching the news. After sitting in jail for about 5 or so years the person who comitted the crime came forth. Mrs. Moses son was in jail, wrongly. It's a shame he had 5 years of his life taken away (the gov't just says "sorry pal, goodluck" and kicks you out of prison). It would have been a greater shame if they killed him. Honestly I am for capital punishment...but they better be 110% sure the person did the crimes (e.g. video).

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    153. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the problem IS that it was a commercially operated prison.

      Think about it: people are profiting from putting people in jail. If that's not a direct setup for corruption then I don't know what else could be. Commercial prisons should be forced to operate at a loss and the highest paying job there should never exceed $50,000/year. Yeah, I know that is going to invite corruption from the gangs, etc. but that's FAR better than corruption from the government that puts people there in the first place. You may not think so until you are forced to spend a few weeks there against your will.

      I've already been to prison(when I actually was NOT supposed to ever go there...yeah, the system sucks fucking ass) and can tell you all the problems with the system inside and out because while I was there I was fascinated with the whole ordeal from a sociological view. I know every point for corruption in every prison and can tell you without question, there's no way to operate a for-profit commercial prison without inviting an economic slavery system; we almost have such a thing without commercial prisons.

    154. Re:Poetic justice? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      How is the above moded Interesting? Come on. Nobody here realizes the inherrent issues with this? First - You are letting a criminal get off scott free. Yea nothing but clothes on their back - they will find a way to survive (mug someone from another country). Second - what country will take them? Even if we managed to keep it a secret at the start of the program other countries would eventually realize what we are doing and would shut down their borders to us for any passenger.

      The above should be modded /funny, not /insightful. Hmm...maybe I should mug someone and then ask to be deported to some exotic country of my choice...I hear spain is gorgeous, so is Micronesia. Ok SIGN ME UP!

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    155. Re:Poetic justice? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      However, a judge is still a human with basic rights. The punishment has to fit the crime actually committed (not the worst-case scenario that we can somehow call similar), and while this crime was severe, it does not warrant a death sentence.

      Are you Jewish or something? Eye for an eye?

      That's bullshit. There are certain standards that a person must meet to be a person, and not a dangerous wild animal in our midst. If they don't meet them, they should be shot down like a dog and removed from society. If their violation is such that it doesn't render then dangerous to the group, then they should be given no punishment at all, but rather assisted to meet the standards.

      If a bear mauls someones face, we don't cut the bear's muzzle off... we kill the bear and we bury it. Same thing.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    156. Re:Poetic justice? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, if someone wrongly incarcerates 5000 people for 3 months each, does it follow that they should be incarcerated themselves for 1250 years? Would that be the punishment fitting the crime?

      That would depend on your belief system of justice.

      Garibaldi: I'm an eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth kinda guy, Ambassador.
      Delenn: So you support a system that would leave everyone blind and toothless.
      Garibaldi: Not everyone; just the bad guys.

      But then, do you divide that 1250 years up amongst the co-conspirators, or do they each get the same sentence?

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    157. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP's argument is actually what turned me against capital punishment. Besides, I'm pretty sure jail sucks more than death.

    158. Re:Poetic justice? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      I didn't know this. That is criminal. Incarcerated criminals should be given:
      Education materials
      Access to only education/news tv (e.g. MSNBC, CNN, Discovery...not Fox or NBC or HBO), NEWSpapers
      Clothing/cleaning material
      Medical care
      Food
      Facilities to keep healthy (we don't need more fatties as that increases healthcare)
      Ability to speak with family (come on, it does us no good if they can't have some kind of positive reinforcement)
      Religious services (if finding spirituality helps them reform then I am down for this)
      Access to lawyer/anon complaint line to report abuse in jail

      I have never been, nor do I have family in prison so I have no sympathetic bias towards inmates. But I am a human and I do not believe in torture

      Prisons should be run by gov't, not private owner.
      Really the above is my opinion, if someone is looking for a debate (e.g. capital punishment is torture) then don't bother - I don't care and won't respond to that - it's an opinion.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    159. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather have them put down because they're expensive to keep and likely to perform similar crimes in the future.

      If they get the opportunity. They won't be working in law anymore, and I hope government in general won't hire known corrupt ex-judges.

      Of course there will always be demand for corruption in organised crime and big corporations.

    160. Re:Poetic justice? by zehaeva · · Score: 1
      I was asking an idle question, why don't we do it anymore. I am glad that a few people put thought into it and gave reasonings. Though only reasons against, nothing for which makes me wonder what would be some good reasons to banish people.

      a few people mentioned penal colonies and i was thinking more along the lines of when machiavelli was banished from venice, not sending people to an island to work or australia.

      One AC mentioned some of the reasonings behind the old banishments being more politically motivated etc. I was quite interested in that, sadly he did post as an AC

      I am thoroughly entertained that such a question has provoked such a response.

      also would you really be okay with being forced to leave your homeland, never being able to go home again just to go micronesia or spain?

    161. Re:Poetic justice? by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      It also prevents us having to spend tax dollars for years and years feeding and housing these criminals, paying for their "rehabilitation treatment" that won't work, etc. Reason number one that I'm for capital punishment: I don't wanna pay for these wastes of flesh.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    162. Re:Poetic justice? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      CDSs and MBSs are fake, paper wealth, that could not have been developed without a central bank artificially creating a market for them. In fact, the entire real estate bubble and resulting mortgage frauds could NOT have happened without government backing, especially through the use of fiat currency to artificially inflate the value of real estate and make mortgages cheaper than they should've been.

      Sorry, but you don't get to blame laissez faire when the problem was caused by a distinct lack of laissez faire in the first place, comrade.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    163. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purposes of laws are dictated by those who write them. Judging by what I have seen of the federal government I would have to say that the purpose of most laws is to maximize revenue for the shareholders.

    164. Re:Poetic justice? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Capital Punishment is a deterrent, nothing more.

      So, by that logic, if I pick a few specks of dirt out of my bowl of rice, I'm not actually removing the dirt, I'm just creating a deterrent to future specks of dirt.

      You are an idiot.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    165. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is true, at least it is in the U.S. and has been since 1919. Read up on a Dodge v. Ford.

      Dodge v. Ford Motor Company, 204 Mich. 459, 170 N.W. 668. (Mich. 1919), was a famous case in which the Michigan Supreme Court held that Henry Ford owed a duty to the shareholders of the Ford Motor Company to operate his business for profitable purposes as opposed to charitable purposes.

      So you see, corporations are in fact *not* free to act in "whatever way they choose wrt profit". They have to maximize their profits for the benefits of their shareholders who may or may not buy off their conscience by giving a pittance to charity.

    166. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      It costs more to execute them than to just feed and house them for life. Unless you also favor eliminating due process. In which case, it'll be cheaper and only cost the lives of innocent people instead of tax dollars...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    167. Re:Poetic justice? by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      You mean the due process that they would have to go through to be convicted regardless of the punishment being capital or not? Maybe I'm just ignorant, but where would the extra expense come from that would cost more than years of food and shelter?

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    168. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Are you Jewish or something? Eye for an eye?

      I think you mean "Protestant". Those are the people who are always quoting Old Testament like it's the Word of God Himself, rather than a collection of stories written down by old rabbis who happened to be fallible humans. Certain extreme orthodox people aside...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    169. Re:Poetic justice? by NinjaCoder · · Score: 1

      Capital punishment deters sane, reasonable people - which aren't the kind of people that commit capital crimes.

      What the judge at the centre of this article isn't sane or reasonable?

      I know, I know, you're not the one arguing he should be executed. Some people, eh?

    170. Re:Poetic justice? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Lets assume that the average length of theese corrupt sentances was one month (I would bet it was longer). Thats a total aggregate bogus sentance of several hundred years.

      IMO people who's crimes do a large ammount of total damange but spread it accross a large number of victims get off WAY to soft in most western legal systems.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    171. Re:Poetic justice? by NinjaCoder · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. It also removes those individuals who are deems too big of a threat to society to be allowed to roam free.

      I don't think anyone suggests people who commit horrible crimes of murders etc should be allowed to roam free.

      Not executing != roam free

      But it at least locking 'em up for 40+ years allows for the possibility of miscarriages of justice being rectified.

    172. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      ... likely to perform similar crimes in the future.

      Um, I'm having trouble picturing this. You suspect that after they're disbarred, they'll be hired in some other country or something? With this on their records, and being practically at retirement age already (They will be once they serve 87 months somewhere.)

      I think it's pretty damn near impossible for them to perform similar crimes in the future.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    173. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      It would not act as an actual deterrent. Most people who commit crimes do not believe they will be caught, so what the punishment is is utterly irrelevant. The ONLY way to change that is not by changing the punishment but by changing the system in such a way that getting caught is more likely. Increased monitoring, auditing, etc.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    174. Re:Poetic justice? by bipbop · · Score: 1

      Doubling the number of privatized prisons in his state was one of Bush's main achievements as Governor of Texas. This is not a new thing.

    175. Re:Poetic justice? by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      likely to perform similar crimes in the future

      They'll probably be disbarred, and effectively banned for life from working anywhere in public service. They won't commit "similar crimes" because they won't have the opportunity.

    176. Re:Poetic justice? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Because we don't have penal colonies. If we don't want them, why should someone else?

      You can send him to North Korea and tell them that he's banished for struggling against capitalism.

      If they are still not convinced, I'm sure they always need more hands at their labor camps anyway.

    177. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I dunno..... Pay them a flat yearly fee, regardless of how many inmates are in the prison?

    178. Re:Poetic justice? by Tycho · · Score: 1

      Was the system of government that came immediately after mob rule in those cases very good? No, in nearly every case the governments were weak and replaced with a usually much more brutal form of government. The French Revolution and the subsequent government of Napoleon were not known for a general improvement in human rights.

      I could add more instances, but instead I will say that the government formed by the Articles of Confederation which came immediately after the American Revolution was unstable and things could very well have gone downhill quickly. Fortunately, a number of people concerned with the stability of the government under the Articles of Confederation had a constitutional convention. Together these people drew up the current US Constitution, which did solve the immediate stability problem. However, they left many other problems unsolved so that a compromise could be achieved. With the nonviolent mechanisms provided, nearly all of the remaining problems were solved, in time. Violence, for the most part, was only used when absolutely necessary.

      --
      Impersonating Tycho from Penny Arcade since before there was a PA.
    179. Re:Poetic justice? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      A most American sentiment

      Not at all. Banishment was actually the highest legal penalty on the books in Soviet Russia / USSR during the first few decades of its existence - it was supposed to be even worse than execution, and it was used in practice, albeit sparingly.

    180. Re:Poetic justice? by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      I agree with you 100%... Unfortunately, though, that's not the reality we have to deal with now. We have to make the best of what we have. If we're going to discuss an ideal world where public services aren't privatized, we might as well go all the way with the idealism and say there would be no crime :)

      What this says to me is that unless I think *no* public service can *ever* be privatized, then expediency dictates that I should be willing to accept the privatization of *any* public service. Sorry, I can't accept that.

      There are varying degrees to which any public service can be thought of as a core government function. For instance, proposing to privatize the post office or road maintenance are entirely different propositions than privatizing the military, justice system, or international diplomacy, where the former group could be reasonably envisioned but the latter would be perceived to be recipe for untold corruption by virtually everyone, regardless of political ideology. In my view, prison privatization makes no more sense than privatizing the police, courts, military, or State Dept., and I think this very case clearly demonstrates why that view is based on realistic, not idealistic, concerns.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    181. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      And if you don't believe in God, but want to see them punished, you must prefer this to "capital punishment". Unless you think someone is going to burn in hell, "capital punishment" isn't punishment. It simply eliminates people. They don't end up suffering punishment in any way. You have to be alive to suffer anything. If they'd be miserable for the rest of their lives (due to being old with no job skills or pensions), you'd actually be doing them a favor...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    182. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      No no no. You are presenting rational and well-thought out libertarian ideas. Slashdot prefers the dyed-in-the-wool batshit crazy kind since this makes them feel both superior and special.

      Ha! Thankfully, intelligent libertarians are extremely rare, so we don't have to worry about it too often...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    183. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scum always rises to the top...
      capitalism for the rich.
      socialism for the poor.

      What is even more interesting though is how backwards our institutions have become. Government takes your freedom. Banks take your wealth. Religon takes your spirituality.... well you get the point. Welcome to the New United Union of America.

    184. Re:Poetic justice? by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      Rehabilitation is a far better option in nearly every circumstance.

      So it magic fairy dust that makes everyone kind to each other, but that doesn't exist, either.

    185. Re:Poetic justice? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      What this says to me is that unless I think *no* public service can *ever* be privatized, then expediency dictates that I should be willing to accept the privatization of *any* public service. Sorry, I can't accept that.

      No, that's not what it says. That's your inferrence.

      What it says is that, regardless of your personal opinion of privatization, a lot of services have been privatized, and you should act accordingly.

      Sorry if you want to keep on setting up straw men... I'm not interested in debating them any further.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    186. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      bullshit.

      MBSs in particular are backed by real tangible property. It's just slit and re-bundled so many times no one knows what anyone is buying. Having a gold standard wouldn't do a damn thing to fix derivatives. Similarly, CDSs are a form of insurance - can insurance exist under a gold standard? If so, so can CDSs.

      Bubbles don't require fiat currency, one of the most famous was the dutch tulip bubble - while the Netherlands was on the gold standard. You Austrians crack me up - if only we went to gold all the worlds problems would magically go away... Never mind that the price of gold itself is volatile and linked more to psychological effects than even paper currency. If fiat currencies suddenly collapsed all the gold hoarders in the world would feel real smug for about 2 weeks, until they figured out that they can't eat the stuff, and no one is going to trade useful goods for a shiny hunk of metal.

    187. Re:Poetic justice? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      I know of at least one convicted and disbarred lawyer who works in a law firm as a paralegal. We need rules which prohibit practicing attorneys from hiring disbarred attorneys. While these bastards won't be judges - they may still be able to eke out a living in the legal field.

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    188. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      *nods*

      Private firefighting doesn't work because the blazing building threatens the entire city, not just the poor sod who didn't buy a firefighting contract. At the very least, some regulation must be done to prevent fire hazards in the first place, because we all pay the costs if your warehouse isn't safe, so if we all have to be responsible for it, we all have some right to say what you can put in it. Likewise, we all have to pay the firefighters, because we all lose are homes if we don't, even if it wasn't our firetrap that was responsible for the blaze. Some tasks require everyone to pay in to be fair, whether they want to pay in or not, and everyone to obey certain regulations, whether they want to or not. A lack of taxes is fundamentally immoral, and a lack of regulation is fundamentally stupid.

      But fires aren't the only threat to people today. Especially in our interconnected global economy. The sad but true fact is, some regulation is required to protect us all, because it's not just the bad investors who lose, and some money is required from us all, because we all have to pay to fix things and we all benefit when they're fixed.

      Reasonable libertarians acknowledge this much, just say we should keep it at a minimum. But far too many are the "out there" ones who insist there should be none at all. That just ignores the reality of things.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    189. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Public education, anyone?

      It only works if you're paying attention. IIRC, 90% of my classmates weren't...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    190. Re:Poetic justice? by mea37 · · Score: 1

      "Are you Jewish or something?"

      No, but since that's the conclusion you jump to I have to ask: are you anti-semitic or something?

      "Eye for an eye?"

      And where exactly did I say that?

      "There are certain standards that a person must meet to be a person, and not a dangerous wild animal in our midst"

      The Constitution is specifically designed to protect the rights of criminals. Our system of government is based on the premise that they are, in fact, human no matter how strongly you disagree with their actions. They do have basic human rights, and those rights can only be limited in accordance with due process of law -- which includes the premise that the punishment must fit the crime.

    191. Re:Poetic justice? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Nice selective quoting there. Why don't you provide the contextural details from my post that contravene your point (specifically, the references to chartered exceptions)?

      Are you trolling, or is your idiocy purely accidental?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    192. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      Intelligent libertarians are the one's that never liked Regan's social agenda and have since realized that his economic agenda was smoke and mirrors. Now they're plain old liberals (although most are still afraid to call themselves that).

    193. Re:Poetic justice? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      You can be against capital punishment without accepting the possibility of higher crime rates.

      The only way to prevent crime is to make everything legal. Or kill everyone.

      I vote for the latter.

    194. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Corruption is inevitable when the incentive exists.

      Congratulations! You comprehend human nature! Don't engage in political conversations, all political theories are based on the notion that men are angels. Even the ones that start from the point that they aren't. Those merely say some men aren't angels, then set up corruption-prone systems to deal with the devils, counting on the fact that the men running their governments are angels. The crowning irony of the Bush years was the party of people who believe government is the enemy supporting giving broad power to the government to deal with its enemies... XD

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    195. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      whew got a little carried away there...

      Let me clarify - I understand the argument that gold is a good choice for the basis of trade because it's somewhat rare, and can't be conjured into existence at the whim of the government. It's just that the argument is bunk. When even Milton Friedman's is more moderate than you, it's time to re-examine where you stand. Inflation may be a stealth tax, but that doesn't make it a bad thing - if the FED were even to hint that it was going to hold the amount of currency in circulation static (to curb a hypothetical inflation problem) you'd see everyone with capital go into full blown hoard mode - and the economy would grind to a halt.

      Now extrapolate to gold - every time there was a hint of a problem at a mine (which are almost all inconveniently located in third world countries) and the economy would stutter. Or in other words, stability wise, the price of bread would look like the price of oil - how do you budget for that?

    196. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd really like to see that, but it'll never happen.

    197. Re:Poetic justice? by illegalcortex · · Score: 1

      Hold your knee for a minute. Yes, there are some people to whom your comments apply. But let's be intellectually honest here - this is not a "most American sentiment", in that it's not specific to America.

      Throughout human history, banishment has always been a severe punishment. This is because it cuts you off from you friends, family, job and other societal supports. The only cases where it isn't something to be feared is when the place you are being banished from is a hellhole, and even then if you can't take family with you it may still be undesirable. On top of all this, there is an aspect of public humiliation when a society as a whole tells you they do not want you.

      I know a guy who has been, in effect, banished from India for the last ten years due to immigration problems. If he leaves the US, he has to start his whole immigration process over. I suppose the only thing keeping him here is the economic opportunities (he's a waiter at a restaurant - a struggling restaurant at that). For him, being "banished" from India to the US is quite a hardship. You could replace "the US" with Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Russia, etc. and it would be just as true.

      So if you're being honest, you will admit that banishment is indeed a punishment given that you aren't being banished from an extremely troubled country.

      Now, as to whether it's realistic in this day and age, I don't necessarily agree. You would need to work out an "exile exchange program" with other countries so you could swap exiles. So then you're getting rid of your undesirable only by accepting someone else's. While it might still be a punishment to the exile, it won't necessarily help society with their crime problems. As such, I would say it's probably not effective.

    198. Re:Poetic justice? by I'm+not+really+here · · Score: 1

      Why not, as a nation, simply buy some island from Mexico (and make it a "prison state" and treat it like it's not a state at all) somewhere near Texas, dump people there, and revoke their citizenship. They cannot legally enter the rest of the US again, they cannot legally enter Mexico, which is nearby, and they have lots of other angry, deadly people to worry about, not to mention survival, so that should take care of those who are most dangerous and cannot ever be returned to society. Rehabilitate the rest (don't jail them, rehabilitate them!)

      If we ever find that we screwed up and sent the wrong person there, go back and pick them up (assuming they survived).

      --
      Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
    199. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      You know, I agree with all that. The problem is, unless all people have access to these things, you incentivize crime. Right now, if I get sick, my best option might be to go rob a drugstore. Not for the drugs, but to be arrested so that I can actually get health care...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    200. Re:Poetic justice? by quantaman · · Score: 1

      In any case, we already have slavery by proxy in this country, because we import literally tons of goods made with slave labor in China.

      Really? I wasn't aware of slave labour being used in China. Do you have any examples?

      --
      I stole this Sig
    201. Re:Poetic justice? by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      That is, in all sincerity, ridiculous. NOBODY is going to willingly go to jail just to get healthcare and a free TV. The only reason I can see someone going to jail willingly is if there is some threat to their life on the outside that they will be protected from on the inside. Even then, 99% of people would probably try to flee from whoever is threatening them and hide rather than going to jail for protection.

    202. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you nuts! Do you really think that a glorified 'time-out' will change anything.

      Public execution of all the parties involved will send a definite message that no 'time-out' will ever come close to.

    203. Re:Poetic justice? by chgros · · Score: 1

      No damages are a civil tool to compensate one person when another has injured them (or their assets) in some way.
      Well, that's compensatory damages, but then there's punitive damages (which I don't understand why they're paid to the plaintiff (and their lawyer) instead of being a fine to be paid to the state)

    204. Re:Poetic justice? by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That can happen no matter who runs the prisons. If you think there's some general method of preventing corruption in human institutions, you're fooling yourself. Badly.

      Perfect... enemy... good...

      You can't make a system corruption-proof, but that doesn't mean all alternatives are equally bad. All human institutions are corruptible, but some are more susceptible than others.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    205. Re:Poetic justice? by erudified · · Score: 1

      And that will undo everything, will it? All those kids will be A-OK again?

      Nope. It won't undo anything. But it'll make me feel way better. And the next time a judge thinks about pulling some shit like this, maybe he'll recall this guy hanging from his neck until dead.

    206. Re:Poetic justice? by erudified · · Score: 1

      Yes, stringing them up would be a simplistic, brutal reversion to the dark ages. But maybe that is the point? These people undermined the law itself, and I believe that is as serious as treason. While I would not sentence them to death myself, I wouldn't shed a tear if their heads ended up on spikes outside the county court.

      Yup, that is the point. To put it simply: fuck these people. They imprisoned children for profit . Hang 'em.

    207. Re:Poetic justice? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      I've often felt the same way about monetary fines. When it becomes profitable to the municipality to issue speeding tickets, for example, an incentive is created to issue as many speeding tickets as possible. We've seen this discussed on /. before in the cases of municipalities shortening the length of the yellow light to that below the legal limit in order for the cameras at those lights to "auto-catch" more people running reds.

      There is something to be said for the argument "should the public be forced to pay for the crimes of an individual?". I've reflected on that question and have come to the conclusion that "yes, they should". Laws are a set of rules that will always oppress those who do not agree with them. We can, do, and should justify them by various means. However, in order for us to enforce the rules we need to be prepared to pay a certain cost. Whether it's the cost of building prisons, hiring and training police officers and of administering the punishments themselves it must cost society. It the cost of dealing with those people who do not wish to play by our rules. In other words: it is the cost of the game itself.

      If the profit is liberty, peace and civility then ultimately the cost is worth it. Trying to make attaining those ends profitable, or at the very least non-costly, is trying to attain something for nothing. It becomes pure oppression for the benefit of others. Crime becomes a net gain rather than a loss. The incentive is created to make as much a crime as possible.

      Thus I feel that there should be a supreme law that prevents rule-makers from administering punishments that result in a transfer of wealth to anyone involved in the legislative, judiciary, enforcement and penal processes.

    208. Re:Poetic justice? by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      That's okay. "The modern global economy" will cease to exist within the next few decades as rising energy prices, the probable death of the world's reserve currency and other factors will cause a vast change in the way we live, and libertarian ideals will become viable, even preferable again.

      Not that I'd expect you to consider any of this; I'm not one of the top 1% and so must be hopelessly naive. If by some off chance you're up for looking at some information that might challenge your global economy viewpoint, check out the link in my sig.

      I didn't quite follow your second sentence. Are you implying that libertarian ideas are what got us the companies who are "too big to fail," or are you just saying that that's the way it is and that epic failure must always be nationalized?

      Now that I've opened my big mouth, I might as well give a response to some of the things you mentioned in earlier posts. This will likely get unwieldy, so I apologize in advance for the length. I should also say that I lean libertarian but am not married to all of its concepts, and anything I write reflects only my own point of view.

      Nothing is sacred in (some) libertarian circles, from justice to environmental controls, everything can be done better privately than publicly.

      I have always understood libertarians to believe that justice is one of the few roles that should and must be undertaken by government, so if you believe you've heard otherwise I'd like to hear your evidence. Regarding environmental controls, a number of libertarians (including Ron Paul, who colors many of my views) believe that they can be handled adequately through private property law. In other words, if a factory nearby is contaminating your water supply, you sue the factory for damages and cleanup. This is an area where I have little expertise, and it's low on my radar so you won't find me out advocating it. I like it in principle because government only gets involved when a suit is filed (fulfilling its role as purveyor of justice).

      [continued] Hell, private soldiering is blasé now.

      I don't support the US government's use of private security forces (i.e. mercenaries) and I think you'll be hard-pressed to find any constitutional libertarians who do.

      And which libertarian/Austrian concepts led to our current predicament?

      the ones that called government "interferences" like regulating CDSs and MBSs abhorrent obstructions to delicate market signals.

      You're missing the point here. Nobody was calling for regulation of these "financial instruments" until the damage was already done. Regulation is always, always, always reactionary. What's the point of adding regulation when the cat's already out of the bag? Once people are made aware of the risks with these instruments, they'll either stay away or realize they are taking a gamble. This is known as due diligence, and should be practiced by any investor. Regulation creates a false sense of security that results both in cases where a) illegal activity goes on despite ostensible regulation (such as in the Bernie Madoff with all my cash scandal), and b) new schemes are devised that look fine under current regulations and are allowed to continue until they blow up (such as in the CDS/MBS/CDO fiasco).

      The whole idea is that if we think that e.g. the banking sector is so indispensable [...] we damn well ought to be making sure they don't do objectively stupid things like leverage themselves 40:1 - and paying themselves billions for driving the company into the ground.

      You're illustrating my point. 40:1 leverage is as far as I can tell something that was so ridiculous that nobody thought to make a law about it, and now that it's grown up and crashed you won't find anyone reputable doing it anymore. Such an insane environment can only be formed under the guise of regulation: if it's not illeg

    209. Re:Poetic justice? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps this quote from the article will cheer you up "No charges have been filed against executives of the detention centers.". Now if that is not a 'WTF', I don't know what is, after to all, they were just giving the judges a percentage of the profits and, it was their idea and they were the ones who corrupted the system.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    210. Re:Poetic justice? by wahsapa · · Score: 1

      in american - you are shot for treason and i would say this judge is a traitor.

    211. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      You don't need a general revolution to kill a couple of judges.

    212. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Whatever action is chosen as 'punishment' should never be done for the reason of revenge, but instead as a preventative measure for others not to follow their path.

      Care to explain why punishment should never be motivated by revenge? It seems to me that the idea is that we forsake personal revenge in favor of the courts implementing revenge with the goal of a more impartial and proportionate revenge than tends to happen otherwise.

      For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Revenge carried out proportionally and impartially is also known by the name "Justice". The fifth definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=justice "the administering of deserved punishment or reward." Having a court system rather than personal revenge doesn't make justice not revenge, it is simply a method of trying to ensure that the "deserved" requirement is properly met.

    213. Re:Poetic justice? by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      I wasn't setting up a straw man, that's how I read your post. I apologize for that, but you're not exactly being clear.

      What does "act accordingly" mean? Sounds like "shut up and bend over" to me, but I certainly don't want to misinterpret your meaning. But if you "agree 100%" with my apprehension about privatizing the criminal justice system, I'm not sure why you'd characterize opposition to that as some kind of starry-eyed idealism along the lines of imagining a world with "no crime". There has never been "no crime" anywhere, but privatized prisons is a quite recent phenomenon and again, this story shows us why it's a bad idea. I'm not sure why you seem to have an issue with saying so.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    214. Re:Poetic justice? by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      "there's no take-backsies if it turns out you fucked up somewhere along the line."

      That statement means something completely different in prison, or so I hear...

      And I don't believe that is in any way an excuse not to execute someone. If the prosecution maliciously puts an innocent man on death row and he is executed before he is proven innocent, then they should be subject to punishment. It's not ok to say that you weren't aware of the man's innocence when your objective was to win, not to seek justice. There has to be a deterrent.

      Putting people in jail has only served to reward serial rapists with free victims. It is NOT a solution.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    215. Re:Poetic justice? by Repton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      An idea I had:

      The government pays the prison a fixed fee per prisoner, based on the crime committed. The prison is free to do with the prisoner as they wish, including releasing them whenever they want. However, if the prisoner commits another crime within some specified period, the prison has to pay a large penalty fee.

      (all fees would be negotiated, or perhaps the prisons would specify them in their tender for the contract and the government would choose)

      The idea is that prisons have a financial incentive to turn prisoners into useful members of society as quickly as they can.

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    216. Re:Poetic justice? by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 1

      I don't really care if it's commercial or not, so long as it's a prison. And I think they should get a one for one sentence; for every month they sentenced a youth to prison for money, they should serve a month. Hard labor, with any proceeds going to a fund for counseling for the teens. Scumbags.

    217. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I actually approve of what the Chinese businessman who allowed lead paint on millions of toys did to attone for his transgression (suicide). In reality, he probably got off light when you consider that there are at least hundreds, if not thousands of children with significant lifelong neurological disorders as a result of his greed and/or sloth.

      On the other hand, he was likely silencing himself to avoid exposing other conspirators, probably in his family...

    218. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      If fiat currencies suddenly collapsed all the gold hoarders in the world would feel real smug for about 2 weeks, until they figured out that they can't eat the stuff, and no one is going to trade useful goods for a shiny hunk of metal.

      Interesting theory, historically wrong, with no reason to believe that has changed. Gold and silver do not require government force to be accepted as currency for trade. As for your assertion that gold is useless, that is flat out wrong. Gold and silver, properly shaped and used as adornment possess a mystical quality that causes them to act as a catalyst to prepare women for sex. Due to this mystical quality there will likely always be almost universal demand for gold and silver.

    219. Re:Poetic justice? by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have them put down because they're expensive to keep and likely to perform similar crimes in the future.

      Hold on.... that doesn't even remotely apply in this case. Do you really expect the government to let them back on the bench after they're released?

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    220. Re:Poetic justice? by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      I agree, the punitive damages should not necessarily go to the plaintiff. Certainly not straight to their pocket. Maybe to a pool for all the people ever damaged by the defendant in that way, like a proto-class action payout.

      In any case, punitives are very rarely ordered. the behavior would have to be very outrageous and repeated.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    221. Re:Poetic justice? by OzoneLad · · Score: 1

      Damn, my moderation points ran out yesterday. Mod parent up!

    222. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Where do we have slavery in the USA?

      Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes
      Despoticall Dominion, How Attained
      Dominion acquired by Conquest, or Victory in war, is that which some Writers call DESPOTICALL, from Despotes, which signifieth a Lord, or Master; and is the Dominion of the Master over his Servant. And this Dominion is then acquired to the Victor, when the Vanquished, to avoyd the present stroke of death, covenanteth either in expresse words, or by other sufficient signes of the Will, that so long as his life, and the liberty of his body is allowed him, the Victor shall have the use thereof, at his pleasure. And after such Covenant made, the Vanquished is a SERVANT, and not before: for by the word Servant (whether it be derived from Servire, to Serve, or from Servare, to Save, which I leave to Grammarians to dispute) is not meant a Captive, which is kept in prison, or bonds, till the owner of him that took him, or bought him of one that did, shall consider what to do with him: (for such men, (commonly called Slaves,) have no obligation at all; but may break their bonds, or the prison; and kill, or carry away captive their Master, justly:) but one, that being taken, hath corporall liberty allowed him; and upon promise not to run away, nor to do violence to his Master, is trusted by him.


      The word slavery applies to prisoners, although it is not commonly used that way anymore. In fact, the 13th amendment does not abolish slavery completely, being written in a manner consistent with the use of the word "slavery" in Leviathan.

      Amendment 13
      1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


      While the amendment restricts slavery to those convicted of crimes it does not expressly forbid that slavery to be in service to private interests provided the requirement of criminal conviction is met. This is the situation in the US right now.

    223. Re:Poetic justice? by largesnike · · Score: 1

      hear, hear, as an Australian, I can say that even *we* have standards!

      --
      "Laugh while you can a-monkey boy!" - Dr Emilio Lizardo
    224. Re:Poetic justice? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      Did you quote something from before the USA existed when I asked "where does there currently exist slavery in the USA".

      I get it, prisons equal slavery to you.

      For it to be slavery, they have to be forced to do work. I don't claim to have a lot of knowledge about the prison system, so correct me if I'm wrong: I thought prisoners had the option of doing work to earn money / privileges.

      This is like may party of the social contract I've grown up with. We don't have the right to drive a car, we earn the privilege. Just like prisoners have severely restricted rights, and can get some privileges by working / good behavior.

      If I were to make a top 5 list about the prison system, the "work system" wouldn't be on it.

    225. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And especially not during the french regime: every colonist had to show a certificate of morality signed by the priest and the lord in order to be allowed on the ship.

      Those priests and lords probably would have been quite happy to falsify them by the thousands in order to get the undesirables out of the country.

    226. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called "setting an example". More of something that really needs to be done.

    227. Re:Poetic justice? by buggerybox · · Score: 0

      > And that will undo everything, will it? All those kids will be A-OK again? Yes actually, to a large degree. The victims will feel vindicated and that justice had been done, and their ordeal had been fully recognized and dealt with by the community. That goes a very long way towards making people "A-OK again". Contrast that with letting these creeps off the hook or a wrist-slap- This sends the message that the victim's ordeal meant nothing and should be just dismissed.

    228. Re:Poetic justice? by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 1

      I heard that it costs around US$20 million to execute someone, whereas to imprison them for life averages out to only something like US$6 million. On the other hand, I know a guy who can execute someone for only US$10,000 - though it's a little extra if you want to make it look like an accident.

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    229. Re:Poetic justice? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      They should go to a nice little state pen, and room with a guy called Bubba, who likes to drop the soap in the showers.

    230. Re:Poetic justice? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      I hear there is some real estate opened up in cuba that might be suitable.
      Nice detention yars, lots of guards with dogs, and very little access for the inmates to representation or trial. That would be a great place to send Judges who are bent.

    231. Re:Poetic justice? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Now I think for a commercial prison, should be paid a base rate for each prisoner, slightly below the cost of their upkeep, but paid a bonus well in excess of this for prisoners who are returned to society and show a very low rate of return.
      This would promote profit in rehabilitation, not bums on benches in the prison mess.

    232. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and criminalizing behaviors associated with unpopular social, cultural, or political positions also has the potential effect of removing a perhaps significant number of supporters of the social, cultural, or political position in question from the voting population

    233. Re:Poetic justice? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      So why aren't the crims out there breaking rocks and making licence plates instead of curling up in front of the TV with a guitar? It's prison, for crying out loud, not a holiday camp.

    234. Re:Poetic justice? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      There should be no luxuries and no wealth earned except for demonstrated good behaviour, or participating and completing successfully further education, or correctional programs for drug abuse etc.

    235. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have *NO* idea! They've been doing this for at least a decade. Wiki. Note the "cheap labor" angle. Chances are the last time you got customer service over the phone and it was an American speaking, you were talking to a prisoner.

    236. Re:Poetic justice? by Spatial · · Score: 1

      Is the money not going to be taken away? Considering how it was attained, that's pretty stupid if it's true.

    237. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital punishment solves nothing, and just feeds the basest desire of humans for revenge.

      So? What's wrong with that? Isn't it funny how we all--every human being on the planet--has that "base" desire? Do you think that's an accident? Do you not think it served a vital purpose to our ancestors? Do you think we're significantly different from our ancestors?

      I'm not even sure why you call it a "base desire." It's not like fight or flight. It's not like breathing, eating, drinking, or pooping. Those are base: Every animal does those. But what other animal besides human beings seeks revenge?

      Besides all that, it's disingenuous to say "capital punishment is revenge, but banishment is not." ANYTHING we do to worsen the lives of the guilty because of what they did is revenge. Justice is revenge. Revenge only ceases to be just when it is out of proportion with the crimes committed. In this case--ruining well over 100 man-years summed across 5000 people--I'd say that capital punishment is WELL within the bounds of justice.

      Will it STOP future crimes of this sort? No. No punishment will stop everyone. There will always be people who think they're too smart to get caught; no gravity of punishment will deter those assholes. What it will do is give their victims and society piece of mind--it'll let us rest easier knowing that the people who screw us over will not get away with it, nor will they get away with a "cost of doing business" slap on the wrist. It won't erase the scars, but it'll alleviate the pain.

    238. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Did you quote something from before the USA existed when I asked "where does there currently exist slavery in the USA".

      Yes, giving context to the use of the word slavery in the 13th amendment to the US Constitution, a document I assume you will agree has some relevance to the current situation in the USA (although not as much as we might hope). Leviathan is a very useful book for understanding english usage that is now out of date because it defines so many terms. A good example is the section "Not All Rights Are Alienable". Some people seem to have difficulty comprehending how you can acknowledge an inalienable right to life and liberty and still have prisons and capital punishment, a misunderstanding that could be addressed by reading that section. Slave was a word used to describe prisoners at the time of writing Leviathan and it appears to me that usage must have been still current when the 13th amendment was written.

      For it to be slavery, they have to be forced to do work.

      That would seem to be the current use of the word, but it is the use of the word in the 13th amendment I find interesting.

      Amendment 13
      1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


      Note that it specifies two things separately, "slavery" and "involuntary servitude", so it seems likely that "slavery" referred to the forcible loss of freedom without regard to work requirements. Also note that slavery is not banned outright, it is specifically allowed on the condition of criminal conviction following due process. Since no country protects criminals rights to liberty after conviction, this applies to every country and is not considered by most people to be unjust (although they may be uncomfortable using the word slavery to describe it, just as you seem to be, even though the wording of the 13th amendment emphatically states that slavery is an acceptable punishment for crimes).

      It is not debating the meaning of words on this issue that is the problem, however, it is the fact that people being punished by slavery, as allowed by the constitution, instead of being held by the government are now being held by private corporations with a profit motive to keep as many people incarcerated for as long as possible. As TFA indicates, this has led to people being incarcerated purely for profit motive when it was unnecessary for punishment purposes. Effectively what has happened is a state sponsored kidnapping and slavery business has grown within the system. The fact that the corporations profit comes primarily in the form of government contracts rather than the slave picking cotton has little relevance.

    239. Re:Poetic justice? by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      their survival (and thus profits) comes from exclusive government contract, not from a free market.

      But their government payments are proportional to the number of inmates. It is in their best financial interest to have all available rooms occupied.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    240. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the jail time, suspending licenses, fines and impounding cars won't stop a certain segment of drivers from behaving like a two year old behind the wheel. (If you're subject to "road rage" when passed, you're not mentally competent to be along in public, let alone driving. This is nothing but immaturity to an insane degree.)

      There's a number of the above actually risking the lives of others every day. Why isn't this taken more seriously? Certainly if we're going to encourage capital punishment, we should start with those who regularly endanger the lives of others. (I don't mean every speeder or person who misses a turn signal, but the idiot who zooms behind you at 90 on a 55 mph road, then with a handful of carlengths between you and the exit, passes you on the left, nearly clipping you, pulls in front of you again nearly clipping you and finally slams the breaks in front of you on their way to USE the exit they saved at most 1-2 seconds getting to by cutting you off.

      As for this case, it's bad on several levels. Lives may have been ruined, people who needed a foot in the door before the economic collapse didn't get a chance, and while the complete lack of faith in government . Even with these people caught, how long will it be before many of these students are released?

      This CANNOT be allowed to be a slap on the wrist, but I grew up hearing of the problems with people getting off life sentences with "good behavior". With our justice system, "death" often means "life w/o parole", "life w/o parole" means "life w/ parole" and "life w/ parole" means "out in 5 years".

      Modern prisons lack the public humiliation needed to stop this sort of thing, and often sufficient punishment. Why do so many large corporations openly disobey laws? The penalty for doing so is less than the benefit gained from breaking them. A corporation is owned like anything else. Perhaps if the primary owners, those exerting the most control had the chance of losing their shares if they didn't keep the top execs honest there would be less corporate crime.

      Finally, is the death penalty necessarily barbaric? What makes the human life sacred? (Especially given that we haven't proven that anything truly sacred exists.) There are certain crimes so bad, we can never allow the people responsible to have another chance to continue them, and we can never trust the sort of person who committed them to truly be reformed as opposed to pretending for the sake of getting out. Is a life sentence worth living? You will accomplish nothing, and if you did, it would be to no benefit. The 2 outcomes:

      Life in prison: essentially a death penalty (you still die in the prison) but you spend a lot of time suffering (or not so much if you get books, TV, conjugal visits)

      or...

      Escape planned during the newly found free time. Once escaped, these people have connections formed with other criminals they met in the jail, they're hardened from what they've been through and probably have quite a chip on their shoulder.

      Perhaps a life sentence could be ok if the person was crippled in some way that left them unable to repeat their crimes. If you're going to spend the rest of your life in jail, do you NEED your legs? The problem is the person framed, going through torment for no reason.

      Still, the death penalty is not typically an evil thing that blindsides a jaywalker. This penalty is typically reserved for the most heinous of crimes and if you're up for it, you willingly decided to risk it, knowing what would happen to you if you were caught. We don't inflict the death penalty randomly for trivial offenses, we put it on the table and people in effect grab it for themselves. If what it takes to get the penalty is a deliberate gruesome murder, or mass murder, can ANY charge be "too harsh"? You don't do these things accidentally... So even if the punishment was 20 times worse than what they did, if what they did was utterly unthinkable and unforgivable, you can't blame anyone but the criminal himself,

    241. Re:Poetic justice? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      That's what I don't get...capital punishment ain't really a punishment. You flip the switch and they are dead. And before that they are sitting in a nice comfy cell. You want someone to get punishment? Send them to AR, we got you covered. We have had escaped cons run with the car shooting flames and three tires blown just to get across the TN border to get away from the hoe squad. Now THAT is punishment.

      Now what is the hoe squad? Simple. We haul your ass out of your bunk at the crack of dawn and throw you out in a field hoeing and digging up rocks and pulling weeds and generally working your ass to the bone until noon, then we give you a sandwich and a drink of tea and as soon as that is over your ass is right back in the lovely 110+ degree Ar weather busting your ass until the sun goes down. Then you get supper and a shower and come morning you get to do it all over again! Doesn't that sound nice? Keeps the taxpayers from having to pay for veggies for the prisoners most of the year too.

      So send that crooked kid abusing bastard to us. Spoiled little judge, used to sitting in his comfy chair with his whiskey highball.....yeah, I'd bet he really do good on the hoe squad. Be a damned good lesson to the corrupt too. No more club fed for you! The only club you going to get is the guards to your back if you don't get off your ass and get to work! Now THAT is punishment!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    242. Re:Poetic justice? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Others have responded well. I describe it with "Well, if the government takes 10 years away from someone in error, they can never give the person's time back, but they can set them free. However, if the government kills someone in error, there's no recourse."

      Swift justice might be acceptable for stimulus packages and copyright extensions; it should never be applied to irreversible processes, like ending a life.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    243. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You couldn't. So what does that make everyone who was involved in implementing that scheme?

    244. Re:Poetic justice? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Those priests and lords probably would have been quite happy to falsify them by the thousands in order to get the undesirables out of the country.

      No.

      Why do you think the french revolution was so savage and furious against the nobility and the clergy? Because they had pretty radical means to deal with "undesirables"... Being scatholics, during the "old regime", the french never had any puritan notions of body integrity.

      And don't forget that by being the largest european country, France did not need to ship-out "indesirables"; it had plenty of room to keep them under check.

    245. Re:Poetic justice? by Yuuki+Dasu · · Score: 1

      This is a terrible crime against society, I agree, and the punishment should be banishment. The system we have for that is called prison, and they should be going there for a very long time.

      I agree that prison is the right solution for this, but 87 months seems far too short.

      Let's review these 5000 cases and total up all the unjust time these judges sentenced students to. Basic sentencing guidelines should make this easy to establish a rough figure, if the example from TFA is in any way representative.

      It seems fairly accepted in our society (the RIAA's twisted logic notwithstanding) to impose punitive damages of 3x the offense.

      Back-of-the-napkin math gives 2500 youth per judge, at a lenient 1 month unreasonable time sentenced per youth, times 3, divided by twelve, gives us a 625 year sentence for each judge.

      That sounds reasonable to me.

    246. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahaha. Oh, you're serious. Darwin prison (Top End of Australia) sees a swelling prison population in the months leading up to the Wet Season. Why? A lot of aboriginal men committing petty crime to avoid being outside when the Wet Season hits. I know because they told me when I was in there. Back then they got free tobacco once a week, too.

    247. Re:Poetic justice? by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      Best method of execution would be to have them lie face down, tie their legs together, jab a canula in the base of their skull and vacuum their brains out.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    248. Re:Poetic justice? by loraksus · · Score: 1

      Capital punishment might not be be a great deterrent for crackheads who rob liquor stores, but I can assure you that if rich white men started dying for perverting the US legal system, there would be changes.

      Doesn't matter though, it will never happen. It's not like this is the first case of corruption and judicial malpractice that we've seen. Judges and prosecutors are effectively immune from any sort of ramifications for their actions because the culture of corruption is so deeply entrenched.

      This guy just got greedy and failed money laundering 101. Still deserves to dangle from a lamppost.

      --
      1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcfv gbhnjmk,l.;/
    249. Re:Poetic justice? by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      Now, if you don't believe that deterrence works on criminals (Either it works or it doesn't, you can't say that "fear of jail" works but "fear of death" doesn't) then you shouldn't support the death penalty because it won't deter criminals.

      Sure we can, because we understand the probabilities of death and incarceration.

      The death penalty isn't an effective deterrent in the US because it's so rare. 37 people were put to death in the US in 2008, which means that even if you commit murder AND are caught and convicted, the odds of getting the death penalty are around 1 in 500.

      If you want the death penalty to be an effective deterrent, we need to start executing more people.

    250. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people of China are not slaves. They may work in sweatshop conditions without our concepts of labour rights or a decent wage, yet the tons of goods made still use voluntary employment not slavery.

    251. Re:Poetic justice? by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      Except now to maximize profits they have an incentive to keep people out of jail, not in. Corruption would have the guilty men go free instead of the innocent locked up, a preferable solution in my book.

    252. Re:Poetic justice? by ekhben · · Score: 1

      Debarring them, stripping them of their pensions, and sending them, judges, to jail... should be deterrence enough. You think a pair of judges are going to have a good time in jail? I would imagine they'll be spending all their prison time living in fear of shivs, right up until the point that fear proves to have been justified.

    253. Re:Poetic justice? by ekhben · · Score: 1

      Yeah -- the American penal population is over 10% of the total Australian population, we'd oppose needing to feed that many new mouths!

    254. Re:Poetic justice? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      As other posters have noted - the judges wouldn't be thrown into the general population. Doing so would be a death sentence. Surely you're not suggesting that when the government kills people, that a better policy is for them to do it on the sly and not take responsibility for their action.

      The fact is many judges have been convicted and have served time. While no doubt that does deter criminal behavior from other judges, for truly heinous acts which act to subvert our very system of justice a stronger (more lethal) message should be supplied.

      I am, however, well versed in cynicism and doubt that such a sentence would be given. Unless it was just to throw suspicion...

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    255. Re:Poetic justice? by cas2000 · · Score: 1

      The fact is Bush et. al. weren't even remotely interested in running a true free market,

      you know, apologists for the magical free market mythology sound almost exactly like apologists for communism when they say that you can't blame the theory of communism for the distortions and abuses of it in the soviet union and china.

      and in trying to quiet the economic grumblings following the dot-com-bubble-bursting set the stage for an even bigger crisis.

      oh, is that what they were doing? silly me...i thought they were lining their own pockets and looting the treasury for themselves and their investors & business partners while they had the opportunity.

    256. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Either it works or it doesn't, you can't say that "fear of jail" works but "fear of death" doesn't)

      I dunno, I fear federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison way more than I fear death.

    257. Re:Poetic justice? by EvolutionsPeak · · Score: 1

      "effective government oversight" is close enough to being an oxymoron that it is not even funny. You can either have idiot bureaucrats that know nothing about what they are overseeing, or you can have industry people that know what they are doing but may have conflicts of interest. Pick your poison.

    258. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Commercially operated prisons are just plain dumb. So dumb it shouldn't even need an explanation. Just ask yourself what options are available for a prison operator to grow revenue or reduce costs and you will see that the incentives are perverse.

    259. Re:Poetic justice? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing 'hands off' about the Bush Administration.

      The largest inflation adjusted increase in government expenditures in history. The largest expansion of government power in history. The largest expansion of government debt in history.

      The Republicans are worse socialists than the Democrats.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    260. Re:Poetic justice? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      I've been doing more research into this, and I have to disagree with you on one point.

      Recessions are cased by the end of bubbles which are caused by markets finding the value of their assets. Austrian business cycle theory correctly identifies credit as a major source of this instability, but there are other factors.

      The 1857 panic was caused by a similar bubble caused by the federal government selling incredible amounts of land. This led to a speculative frenzy almost identical to the current housing bubble. The cause of the upset was twofold: First, credit was far too loose, so banks were very fragile at the time. They lent far more than they had, resulting in bank runs when the bubble burst. Second, the market didn't know the value of the land yet. Since people had never been burned by a bad land deal during this time, they assumed it was impossible until the crash. No other panic had the same issue, because banks and investors alike realised the value of the land.

      Similar conditions caused the 2000 bubble. Y2K caused a huge influx of capital into tech markets, which, paired with the famous availability of easy credit under Alan Greenspan, caused the market to stop knowing what the true value of tech stocks was. This led to a bubble for the same reason that nobody ahd gotten burned, until the crash. Today, investors are far more careful with tech stocks, because they know they can get burned.

      This causes problems in some cases because deregulation always causes the markets to go through a bubble/burst cycle to find the true value of assets. Energy deregulation in California, for example, caused an energy bubble which burst with the collapse of Enron. This gives the socialists things to point to "See? The market doesn't work! We deregulated and there was this crash!", not realising that it's a simple function of the business cycle.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    261. Re:Poetic justice? by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      I looked for one and it doesn't look like there is :(

      CCA is the Corrections Corporation of America, they run something like 60 prisons and I think they really represent the move toward privatization in this area. Puryear was appointed to a federal judgeship by Bush in the district that they are based out of, and in which many suits against them are currently filed. But he works for CCA. This on top of the fact that the appointment was extremely political, since it's obvious from his history that the guy is a bad and inexperienced lawyer.

      Don't bother reading CCA's wikipedia article, half of it sings the praises of private prisons and the other half describes their facilities as something close to a spa. The history page tells a different story, but from the looks of it no one's been able to get any mention of controversy (or a spam tag) to stick.

    262. Re:Poetic justice? by atraintocry · · Score: 1
    263. Re:Poetic justice? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they get off easy. Every single one of their judgements should be recalled (undone) and reviewed, their profits should be confiscated, with 100-fold penalties and fines thrown in on top, and required to pay reparations to each of the 5000.

    264. Re:Poetic justice? by Wes+Janson · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's why ammunition is getting so expensive these days...?

    265. Re:Poetic justice? by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      My feeling is that it's hard for the death penalty to be a deterrent in this day and age, since it gets done behind closed doors. The trend over the years has been towards making executions more private, more efficient, and less painful.

      Another reason would be that people usually expect to get away with whatever they're doing.

      A third would be the complete lack of statistical evidence supporting even a *correlation* (between violent crime rates and # of executions), let alone a demonstrated causal relationship. If anything the numbers go the other way. In areas where there's more violent crimes, there's more capital punishment. Probably because there's more people to punish.

      For the most part we know how terrible it is to give the state control over life and death, and have adjusted the process accordingly. But (in some states) we're just not willing to let go.

      How about they have to wear handcuffs for the rest of their lives? I'm cool with that.

    266. Re:Poetic justice? by julesh · · Score: 1

      Then the govt. would have an incentive to send as many people as possible to the joint, to maximize their bang for the buck, so we end up with the same result.

      Not really, as it makes no difference to the government how many people it imprisons. If it feels it will benefit from imprisoning them, it will feel free to do so.

      Besides, in most civilised countries it's the judiciary that decides whether somebody goes to prison, and they are independent from the administrators who would have arranged to pay for the prison, so there should be no pressure like this. It wouldn't be worthwhile for those administrators to bribe judges because, frankly, they wouldn't care.

    267. Re:Poetic justice? by Max+Threshold · · Score: 1

      I think a symbolic death sentence commuted to life without parole would be more fitting.

    268. Re:Poetic justice? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      I happen to know someone who spent twenty-odd years on Death Row. Despite serious flaws in his case, it took that long to get to the point where a plea-bargain was accepted and he left the country. Despite the fact that he will never now have a real life again as you or I know it, he's still quite grateful not to have been killed for something he didn't do.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    269. Re:Poetic justice? by AttilaSz · · Score: 1

      ... the very concept of a commercial prison to me seems...something out of a really bad science fiction movie....

      Or a really good satirical novel, like Vonnegut's "Hocus Pocus".

      --
      Sig erased via substitution of an identical one.
    270. Re:Poetic justice? by WNight · · Score: 1

      Actual Damages multiplied by Counts... Seems fair to me. You must have missed that the RIAA was hideously inflating the damages. Typical troll, too stupid to know the subject matter.

    271. Re:Poetic justice? by WNight · · Score: 1

      It becomes less of a simple corruption case and closer to slavery.

      Personally I consider slavery to be roughly treason against the whole human race.

    272. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You act like the choice is death vs life-in-maximum. In fact these guys will be out in a few years.

      What would some massive punishment do? Maybe restore the victims' faith in our society's justice.

      Worse, these judges will have all kinds of contacts and be able to avoid the worst of the prison experience. They won't experience a single minute of the terror of someone falsely sentenced, or prison rape, or any of the other joys they subjected people to. I've heard Russia has some nasty prisons, I say we send them there. Let them experience prison as they inflicted it on others.

      For a bonus - film it. I bet at least 5000 people would buy the DVD...

    273. Re:Poetic justice? by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

      Oh, I dunno..... Pay them a flat yearly fee, regardless of how many inmates are in the prison?

      That would give them an incentive to keep real criminals out of prison with a few bribes.

    274. Re:Poetic justice? by Quantumstate · · Score: 1

      This would exaggerate the problem rather than decrease it. The people who you sent to prison for minor offences would surely be less likely to re-offend and therefore be more profitable.

    275. Re:Poetic justice? by arkhan_jg · · Score: 1

      One view is that prisons are "banishment" as you describe. The purpose of prison is, in theory, to simply separate the criminal from the rest of society with the primary goal of protecting the society from the criminal. No attempt is made to change the criminal in any significant way. This is the European model.

      Uhh, no it isn't. The European model combines detention with rehabilitation. The idea is that you keep the prisoner away from society both to protect society during his incarceration, and to punish the inmate by taking away his liberty.

      You then also use that time to try and solve the problems that caused the prisoner to commit his crimes in the first place. Many property criminals are so because of poverty and/or illiteracy. Crimes of violence are sometimes due to treatable mental illnesses. Training in usable skills and therapy are used to help the criminals have at least a chance of making it outside without resorting to further criminality; especially given they may get parole for the last third or so of their sentence. This system doesn't always work, and it's often not as well funded as it should be, especially in overcrowded institutions. But it's better than the alternative -

      the american federal system; chuck them in a cage for a few years, treat them like a rabid dog, abuse the hell out of them, and then chuck these broken men back out into society and assume that they will not commit any more crimes due to fear of going back. Ignore that they have no legitimate work skills, few people skills, are virtually unemployable, are barely eligable for state help and have no vote to try and get better representation - and overall have no visible method of supporting themselves except by going back to committing crimes.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    276. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incarceration is essentially the product of a prison, so the payment structure you describe is essentially inherent to the fact that it's a for-profit prison.

    277. Re:Poetic justice? by bakwoodz · · Score: 1

      Actually, all the talk of capital punishment is a bit misdirected in one sense. Capital punishment makes sense in cases where the individual is a proven threat to society while alive. Charles Manson comes to mind. But in this context, it should be remembered that life can be way worse than death. Take the kids that suffered at the hands of these two, for instance. They may well have to go through life with a criminal record, and the trauma of going to juvenile hall. Basically these were normal teenagers put into the pen with actual degenerates, and that is going to have some serious psychological effects on them. So no, killing these two is just a bad idea. They have been removed from power, so they pose little further threat to society. I say let them live the life they set for the kids they wrongly convicted. Convict them of the charges, send them to prison, sue them so they no longer have access to wealth, and if they make it out of prison alive make sure they are destitute enough that they have to seek a menial job to make it week by week, and all the while they have the convictions on their record. Again, living can truly be worse than dying.

    278. Re:Poetic justice? by sac13 · · Score: 1

      How could you set up a commercially operated prison such that the operator would not benefit from an increased number of incarcerations?

      You can't. And, you can't create a system where people won't break rules unless you don't have any rules.

      I see many posts on this topic saying (not referring to yours) that we need to eliminate commercial prisons and set things up where this can never happen again. Well, acccording to the current system, this was illegal. You can pass all the laws you like, but corrupt people will always do corrupt things.

      We don't need to eliminate commercial prisons if they make economic sense as a way to manage the justice system. What we need to do in this case is to make sure the law says that any judge that does this sort of thing is disbarred and thrown in prison for life. Anyone involved in paying bribes on the prison side should also receive a stiff sentence. AND, their company should lose ALL present and future contracts NATIONWIDE. The victims should also receive IMMENSE damage payments.

      Make the costs so high for being corrupt that the companies themselves will make sure it isn't happening. Otherwise, they lose their ENTIRE business. They'll choose smaller, legal profits over none ever again virtually every time. There may still be the occasional idiot, but they'll be out of that business soon enough.

    279. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      The whole point of Keynesian economics (not socialism) is to moderate the business cycle. Boom/bust cycles are extremely damaging and we'd be better off with out them (note: this is not a goal to be achieved by all means necessary - some market volatility is both unavoidable and probably even desirable.) So yeah, boom/bust cycles are natural phenomenon in an unregulated market, but the market exists to serve us, not the other way around - so we regulate and try to shave some of the extremes off the business cycle.

      I'm trying to figure out what your point is... free markets are good and Enron is an example of that? In all of your examples, with the possible exception of the tech bubble which may have been unavoidable, the public would have been better served by simple and effective regulations.

    280. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      Effective government regulation... Ever been hunting of fishing? Ever tried to get a CDL - or been run over by an unlicensed truck driver? Has your building ever burned down or collapsed because it wasn't up to code? Do you get better or worse gas mileage than you did in 1970? Is the air you breathe and the water you drink more or less poisonous than it was in 1970? Here's the kicker - most of that happened IN SPITE of chief executives who think less regulation is better - and wouldn't have happened without regulation.

    281. Re:Poetic justice? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Really? I wasn't aware of slave labour being used in China. Do you have any examples?

      Clearly, your brain was produced by someone not interested in doing a good job.

      Go rent What Would Jesus Buy, and watch the extras. You will get as much evidence as you can stomach. Synopsis: A Chinese woman gives an account of how she was tortured, imprisoned, and forced to make Christmas lights for the crime of being a Christian.

      This sort of thing is status quo, but if what you want is an eyewitness account, it's not hard to come by.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    282. Re:Poetic justice? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      No, that would promote incarceration of innocent people even more than the current system. People who never committed a crime in the first place are certainly less likely to do so when they get out than actual criminals.

    283. Re:Poetic justice? by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      So it is proper to act like barbarians? Keep in mind it wasn't only the French King who lost his head, but thousands of innocents, since there was not system of civilized justice.

      The same thing happened with Mussolini. It wasn't just him killed, but dozens of others killed without trial.

      So do not reference these events as 'justice' for there was none.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    284. Re:Poetic justice? by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      to add to my point, those who killed Mussolini became as guilty as he was.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    285. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      This reply may too become unwieldy, so thanks for your patience.

      I didn't quite follow your second sentence. Are you implying that libertarian ideas are what got us the companies who are "too big to fail," or are you just saying that that's the way it is and that epic failure must always be nationalized?

      What I'm saying is that institutions that are "too big to fail" will naturally arise without draconian (and undesirable) controls. It's the dark side of economies of scale. When these institutions run into trouble, which they inevitably will, it is in societies interests not to let them fail - because they can literally take society down with them. Therefore, libertarianism can only exist on the boom side of the cycle, and will always yield to nationalization on the bust side. In this way, libertarian and free-market ideals serve to privatize wealth and nationalize debt. Failing the nationalization of debt the middle class evaporates almost overnight, the lower class is cast into abject poverty, and the wealthy become every wealthier off the backs of the peasants in a neo-feudal system. Just take a look at some of the chicago school experiments in latin america to see what I mean.

      Alright, it's some of the more wing-nutty libertarians who propose privatization of justice, but they do exist, I'm not going to bother telling you why it's a bad idea - just know there are people who advocate private police forces that protect and serve by contract, complete with a bounty system. It's crazy I tell you.

      As for the libertarianism and the environment... The problem is that one individual, and certainly one company can do orders of magnitude more damage than their life is worth. Let's say I own union carbide and I accidentally poison your village killing everyone. Oops, time to file for bankruptcy. You can even liquidate the shareholder and executives assets and throw them in prison for the rest of your life, and not even come close to being able to repair the damage to property - to say nothing of the loss of life. And even that example is localized - what do you do when a company decides it's worth the risk of being caught pumping tons of CFCs into the atmosphere because it saves them a couple cents per widget - you will never be able to repair the damage. That's why we have the superfund now. Again, libertarianism is all about privatizing profit, and nationalizing downside damage.

      About the follies of the banking industry over the past 5+ years. You're wrong that no one was calling for regulation, you're wrong that no one thought 40:1 leveraging was a bad idea, and you're wrong that no one saw the impending collapse. The main stream media sure didn't tell you about it, and the (anti-regulation) government sure wasn't listening, but the dissent was there. Warren Buffet's private wealth was all in treasury bonds before the collapse - because he saw it coming. Paul Krugman warned about the property value collapse in his previous book (even if he got some of the details wrong). Bernie Madoff was investigated - the SEC just abdicated their responsibility. Financial wonks new what was going to happen in September in January Plenty of people saw this coming, and if we had actual accountants checking actual books for the last eight years, perhaps we could have softened the blow.

      You're generalizing

      You're right I was. The problem stands that no one should be running for president of the united states, who thinks the position is incapable of action. If libertarians and republicans want to run for congress, governor, or state assembly, more power to them, they can try to reduce executive powers from there. What we absolutely cannot afford is to have power concentrated in the executive branch that is not used for ideological reasons. In a larger sense, the problem with the libertarian, states rights agenda

    286. Re:Poetic justice? by ShadeOfBlue · · Score: 1

      oh, is that what they were doing? silly me...i thought they were lining their own pockets and looting the treasury for themselves and their investors & business partners while they had the opportunity.

      Yes, that too, and that fits in with my point which I guess I never explicitly stated. Free-market-as-the-neocons-deem-it is a joke, but, there are free market economists who have been making very accurate multi-year predictions. To ignore the economists because of the neocons feckless behavior is poor judgment.

      I had actually thought of mentioning the parallel with communism; I don't see that it opens any logical flaws in my point. In any event, it seems failures in Soviet Union communism arose both through abuse of power and through inherent flaws in communism - disincentivizing hard work.

      Finally, I don't consider myself a 100% gung-ho free-marketer. I'm actually *gasp* undecided on how much of a role I think the government should play in the market. So, I'm taking data now to form a stronger opinion - I'm listening to predictions (not postdictions) from guys like Peter Schiff, and comparing them to the Obama crew's, and holding onto my fiscal-butt for a few years while we see who was right, or righter.

      It also occurs to me that free market ideas may be a useful tool to analyze the market but have no good, practical way to implement. I'm trying to keep an open mind regardless of who is popularly associated with an idea.

    287. Re:Poetic justice? by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Not our problem. Solution is to make good use of international waters.

    288. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't just lose their career. They took a big, steaming shit on it and wiped their ass with Benjamins. That said, I'm also against killing them. Though I do think the local Juvenile Detention Center could use a new punching bag.

    289. Re:Poetic justice? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      I'm saying it's a natural process, unavoidable. Bubbles are axiomatic to capitalism and a free market. Somebody losing a fortune on something they should have known wasn't worth what they paid for it is the way prices are set.

      Trying to prevent bubbles in a capitalist system would require elimination of the capitalist system. We're actually seeing that now.

      The housing bubble was a result of simple changing economics of cities. Populations boomed, and a bubble was formed. A second bubble was created with the deregulation of the energy energy in 1996. Another bubble was induced by the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. A fourth bubble was induced by the high spending of Y2K readiness causing a re-valuation of tech stocks.

      Bush helped create a second credit bubble by trying to ensure availability of cheap credit, and it actually worked pretty well, as far as temporarily inducing bubbles go. That bubble burst badly in early 2007, and it took until the election for anyone to realise what had happened.

      The current troubles are caused by a number of bubbles bursting at once. The housing, Glass-Steagall, and credit bubbles all burst at once, and now investors are drained from all the unsustainable spending that kept them all going.

      Understanding this, assuming my hypothesis is correct and bubbles can be predicted, the next step is to decide the role of bubbles in your economy.

      Better planning would help reduce the impact of bubbles. Half the major bubbles that collapsed in the past decade were created by government. Instead of arbitrarily deregulating any number of big things over a period of time, introducing uncertainty to multiple areas of the market as the Bush and Clinton did, it would be more responsible to deregulate something, wait for the bubble and collapse, then deregulate something else. This would prevent the cascade bubble effect that caused the insane wealth of the late 90s and the insane economic decline of today.

      Regulation will always come after the bubble ends and will be useless in mitigating it, while the free market won't allow a repetition. It's mostly useless.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    290. Re:Poetic justice? by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Really? I wasn't aware of slave labour being used in China. Do you have any examples?

      Clearly, your brain was produced by someone not interested in doing a good job.

      Cool, thanks for keeping the discussion civilized.

      Go rent What Would Jesus Buy, and watch the extras. You will get as much evidence as you can stomach. Synopsis: A Chinese woman gives an account of how she was tortured, imprisoned, and forced to make Christmas lights for the crime of being a Christian.

      This sort of thing is status quo, but if what you want is an eyewitness account, it's not hard to come by.

      There's certainly instances of slave labour by individuals, though I don't know how endemic it is and even in the US there have been instances of what could be considered slavery with immigrants. As for the government workcamps I don't know a ton. I'm not 100% certain whether it should be called slavery as they are prisoners (how valid those sentences are who knows) and the US has used prison work gangs in the past (I don't know if there's any form of compensation for the Chinese prisoners).

      Basically when I see made in China I want to know if all the labour involved was voluntary. Certainly it's a higher probability than from western nations but I still don't get the feeling that it makes a significant contribution to the final product (I could be wrong of course).

      --
      I stole this Sig
    291. Re:Poetic justice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second that motion, only because the people creating these atrocities are not being punished and setting a presidence for more of the same crap.

      1st Example: Madoff (spelling?) stole 50 Billion, and gets off with a slap.

      More examples: Bill Clinton was not impeached for perjury, because arguably it wasn't truely politcally related. Albeit, it /was/ still perjury. What did that get us? Blagojovich (spelling?) and his sidekick thinking they can commit perjury with no reprocussions whatsoever, even if their outcome wasn't what it was expected. When people will see others get away with murder, well hell, why can't they?! It needs to end somewhere.

    292. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      You're telling me we can predict bubbles but are still powerless to mitigate their effects?

      Look someone could have looked at a chart of median home prices vs. median salary, realized the price of housing was unsustainable, and put the brakes on things like liar loans and ARMs. If we had simply restricted the issuance of ARMs the entire housing bust could have been avoided.

      You want to know what the next bubble to burst will be? Consumer Credit. You want to know how we could fix it today? Stop issuing new credit to people who have maxed out credit cards in excess of 25% of their adjusted gross income. There might be an immediate increase in the number of bankruptcies, and the credit providers will have to write down some losses, but it is better than having VISA go to congress in 5 years asking for a multi-billion dollar bail out. That's the trick with financial regulation, you need to step up and take the bitter medicine now so it doesn't explode in a couple of years. Call it the Volcker school of disaster avoidance.

    293. Re:Poetic justice? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      They corrupted the judgment system and left psychological scars on 5000 people, and they did it for profit.

      They should be executed. If they are not executed by the system, then they should be executed by the people, lynch mob style.

      Nah, execution wouldn't be right. Neither would a mere 7 year in prison. They need to sum up the sentences of all the teens wronged, and let that be the judges' sentence. And not in a white-collar resort prison.

    294. Re:Poetic justice? by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the great response.

      Your point about the environment is a good one. I am having trouble seeing how public environmental controls would prevent the accident in your first scenario, unless you mean something like safety standards, but I'm assuming in the second (CFC dumping) that factories which produce harmful chemicals would have audits and reporting requirements. That makes sense. Again, the environment is something that would be low on my radar to "libertarianize," because I am unaware of many problems with current and proposed systems, and don't know what set of advantages and disadvantages a libertarian policy would bring.

      We are in full agreement that private police forces and the like are a bad idea.

      Re:banking. I can accept that I was wrong about the calls for regulation, but I must not have been clear regarding leveraging and the crash. I know that some people thought 40:1 leveraging was bad, insanely so, and did not mean to imply that nobody saw the impending collapse. Indeed, Peter Schiff and Ron Paul (both free-market economists) had been predicting the housing bubble's crash for years before it happened. It's important to keep in mind that the banking crisis is rooted not in CDSs and MBS but in the inability of people to pay their mortgages--the problems with those financial instruments began there. (And the reasons for the housing boom which led to the bust run straight to the Federal Reserve.)

      I want to briefly address your assertion that "libertarian and free-market ideals serve to privatize wealth and nationalize debt" because it rests on a huge assumption that you've made explicit several times; the notion that there are institutions who are too big to fail. This is not a notion that AFAIK any libertarian accepts, and for good reason! Such institutions do not fail in a vacuum--there will be someone else who thinks they can better manage the assets of the failed institution, and they will buy up those assets and life will go on (indeed, we saw a perversion of this when Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch with taxpayer money). It's not fun for those involved, but they chose to be involved with (for example) that bank, and they chose to trust that said bank was acting in their best interest without bothering to examine the bank's practices. It is far more fair that those involved pay the high price of failure than for everyone in the nation to suffer some smaller amount.

      I understand that you believe that these institutions are too big to fail without catastrophic effects, and working with that premise then yes, libertarian principles in every other area save for letting large institutions fail would serve to privatize wealth and nationalize debt. However, I don't think it's fair to characterize the libertarian system of thought as such while you refuse to allow the system to handle failure in a manner consistent with itself.

      In a larger sense, the problem with the libertarian, states rights agenda (aside from the racist dog whistles) is that it rests on the assumption that people will physically move to the state that best provides for them. That's just not true - there's a tremendous amount of inertia involved in moving humans, and companies can and will exploit that. We, as citizens, are best served by the broadest possible minimum workers rights and environmental regulations in order to prevent a race to the bottom. In today's world, that means they should be national.

      They can certainly be national, it's just that the barrier for entry is higher, requiring a constitutional amendment. It pisses me off that so much is done in this country that goes flatly against our founding charter. And yes, it's hard for people to pack up and move to a different state, but with strong states' rights the option is there. If you take the long view, then giving states the freedom to experiment is a better way to find out what works and what doesn't, and the nation as a whole will be better off for gai

    295. Re:Poetic justice? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      MBSs were backed by overvalued real estate; real estate that would not have increased in value so greatly in the first place if the Fed had not pursued a loose money policy when it comes to credit. Again, it had nothing to do with Austrian economics or libertarianism, it had to do with a central bank trying to manage the economy. Which as we (should) have learned, doesn't work.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    296. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      On the environmental front - recognizing that you're not really fighting me - (government) controls and audits are an absolute necessity for anyone who produces toxic waste.

      On the current financial crisis - the root of the problem is indeed bad mortgages, but the total value of the US mortgages is somewhere around $2 trillion. Compare that to the total value of CDSs, which was at one point around $30 trillion. If the problem were confined to the mortgage business we would have already bought ourselves out. The largely unregulated financial institutions have compounded our problems many times over.

      I'm not arguing that nationalizing debt is a facet of libertarianism, I'm arguing that it it it's fatal flaw. I know that libertarians don't accept this argument, but the citizenry doesn't have the patience to watch things play out. In this interconnected economy there are cascading failures that we cannot abide.

      Remember when the bailout was first being pitched back in September and ashen-faced congressmen on both sides left a meeting with Hank Paulson, stepped up to the podium and said that this is something we must do? Well, apparently Paulson, a regulation-is-always-bad child of wall street, literally said that martial law could result without a bail out. Now maybe that was a bit hyperbolic, but at a minimum the credit markets would have completely seized. Meaning no loans for anyone. Businesses would be unable to make payroll, retailers couldn't acquire inventory, people would be unable to access their money. There is no libertarian solution to such a problem. Let them fail doesn't cut it. There isn't an investor in the country with access enough liquid capital to snap up failed banks at fire sale prices, make good on their obligations, and avert disaster. Wall Street was largely unregulated and it drove this country to the brink of financial ruin. The proof is in the pudding, when push comes to shove, it's better to nationalize debt than have people take to the streets.

      Last thing, a big reason for the tenth amendment's inclusion was slavery. Libertarian arguments that the states should be allowed to do whatever they please because of the tenth amendment fundamentally rests on a phrase included in a document that allowed local governments to trump human rights. I'm a huge fan of the constitution, but I'm under no illusions that it's perfect - we should be able to amend it to fix these problems, but the political reality of the day is that we're not going to be able to modify the bill of rights. The exploitation of the commerce clause is far from ideal, but it does make a certain amount of sense.

    297. Re:Poetic justice? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      That's simply not true. The fed did take too loose a monetary policy, so they're not completely off the hook, but it was the banks that were handing out free money with time bombs attached - they should have known better, and more to the point we should have been paying attention and not allowed them to plant mines across our country.

      The real estate wasn't overvalued by the fed in the same way dutch tulips weren't over valued by gold ingots. People are quite capable of blowing up a bubble on their own.

    298. Re:Poetic justice? by spuzzzzzzz · · Score: 1

      We'll take the ones that know who Don Bradman is.

      --

      Don't you hate meta-sigs?
    299. Re:Poetic justice? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      If you eat, you can predict that the food will turn into poop, but once you've eaten, the transformation into poop is simply what happens.

      If you disrupt the market, you can predict that a bubble will be created which will burst and result in the new market value, but once the market is disrupted, the bubble and bust is simply what happens.

      VISA is much different than mortgages. High failure rates are built into the price of the card. Having had a brief run-in with VISA, trust me -- they make their money. If you don't pay your bills, you end up paying through the nose.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    300. Re:Poetic justice? by BlueLightning · · Score: 1

      Simply pay the commercial operators a fixed fee negotiated based on the capacity of their prison. This effectively means they make less profit the more prisoners they have to incarcerate. Of course, you'd have to get them to agree to those terms, and if you assume some level of corruption will always occur then it might result in larger prisons being built than necessary. It would lessen the likelihood of people being sent to jail unnecessarily as a result of corruption, however.

    301. Re:Poetic justice? by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      I agree with you apart from one major thing. One should be against the so-called 'justice' bit as well. Society (whether individuals or the courts) should strive to better people, educate them, feel sorry for these people, yes even respect them as human beings. Even if they do awful things, it's not necessarily going to do any good to simply lock them up.

      The exception as I said earlier is if the 'locking up' part is because the amount of misery the criminal would otherwise cause (to others) by not being locked up outweighs the amount of misery to the criminal. I'm not so sure about the notion of "setting an example to others", because I've often heard how the threat of punishment does nothing to help prevent criminals doing it in the first place.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    302. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you apart from one major thing. One should be against the so-called 'justice' bit as well. Society (whether individuals or the courts) should strive to better people, educate them.

      Justice is an absolute necessity, even if it can't be perfectly implemented. As the definition I quoted states: "the administering of deserved punishment or reward." On what basis do you claim we should withhold deserved rewards from people? I know you haven't actually made that claim, but it all falls within the scope of justice. On what basis do you claim we should routinely withhold deserved punishments?

      The idea you propose is to allow people to live without regard to causality, which is to say, without regard to reality. That's ok, by the way, right up until other people have to bear the negative consequences of your actions. Those consequences should be visited upon you, as fully and quickly as possible. Anything else is simply making the victims take the consequences of someone else's evil, which is far more unacceptable than punishing the offender.

    303. Re:Poetic justice? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      But then, do you divide that 1250 years up amongst the co-conspirators, or do they each get the same sentence?

      I'd divide it up, but then, there were only two co-conspirators. Do you think their descendants should pay too?

    304. Re:Poetic justice? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Do you think their descendants should pay too?

      Only if it were a matter under copyright law.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    305. Re:Poetic justice? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      Not sure where the confusion is... to clarify, I wrote that we must accept the fact that some "should-be-publicly-operated" services are privatized, whether or not we accept the premise by which they were privatized.

      In short, I agree that privatization of the prisons is a bad idea... but since they have been privatized, we (as a society) need to deal with the realities, and figure out how to make the best of a bad situation... I don't think it's likely that we'll be able to socialize the prison system again (no matter how much it makes sense).

      but privatized prisons is a quite recent phenomenon and again, this story shows us why it's a bad idea.

      Only recent in the US. Britain had its share of private prisons over the centuries, before the practice was ended due to the conflict between profit and human rights. For that matter, most prisons in colonial America were private enterprises, though allowed only by grant of the Crown. Even in the young Republic, prisons were often run as loosely for-profit enterprises (Auburn plan prisons)... while the concept was that prisons be self-sufficient by enforced labor, the truth is that many prisons enriched greatly those who ran them (or their friends, who benefited from prison labor in private industry). Enough so, that in the 1850s, completely private enterprises loudly complained of the unfair competition from nearly-free labor.

      At any rate, abuse of the prison system for profits has long been around. At least now it's very clear who's making the money.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    306. Re:Poetic justice? by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Sorry for the slow response...

      On what basis do you claim we should withhold deserved rewards from people? I know you haven't actually made that claim, but it all falls within the scope of justice. On what basis do you claim we should routinely withhold deserved punishments?

      Punishments are in general negative, and rewards are positive. If we want to maximize happiness/contentment/well-being (which isn't a zero-sum game of course), then we should discourage punishment which is basically 'revenge' disquised.

      The idea you propose is to allow people to live without regard to causality, which is to say, without regard to reality. That's ok, by the way, right up until other people have to bear the negative consequences of your actions.

      As I said before, it's not going to make things better because those who commit stupid crimes would do so anyway. Punishing them degrades us and them. It would be sufficient for society to frown upon their actions, and plea with them not to do so (before and after the crime). But to punish them encourages a cycle of hate.

      Anything else is simply making the victims take the consequences of someone else's evil,

      No the victim would be traumatized either way. Encouraging people to forgive the offender would be far more constructive, otherwise the victim has the anguish of the crime itself, *and* of the bitter resentment they feel towards the offender. Don't you agree? No, I'm not a christian in case you ask.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    307. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Punishments are in general negative, and rewards are positive. If we want to maximize happiness/contentment/well-being (which isn't a zero-sum game of course), then we should discourage punishment which is basically 'revenge' disquised.

      Positive results are obtained through positive action. Negative results are obtained through negative action. Behaviourism, while not good as a total philosophy, has certainly been well demonstrated to be effective. If you wish to promote the greatest happiness etc, you implement a system of punishment and reward to encourage positive action and discourage negative action.

      As I said before, it's not going to make things better because those who commit stupid crimes would do so anyway.

      Nonsense. A portion will, but many people will moderate their behaviour based on expected outcomes, including but not limited to punishments. You clearly have not done even the most cursory research of this topic. Granted, punishment is not enough to stop a behaviour given strong enough reasons to engage in it, but in general it is very effective. I've been told by people who have been to countries with Sharia law that you can leave your wallet on the bonnet of your car and it won't be taken. That's not meant to be an endorsement of Sharia but the claim that punishment doesn't discourage the targeted behaviour is not true.

      Punishing them degrades us and them.

      According to whose value system? I would say that allowing doers of evil to roam free while the rewards of peoples labor is given to those who didn't work for it degrades us.

      It would be sufficient for society to frown upon their actions, and plea with them not to do so (before and after the crime).

      Plea with them? HA! You think force won't stop them but asking them nicely will? That has very limited practical application. Don't you think that many of the victims of violent crime beg for mercy if they have the opportunity? There is a reason that armed self defence is less likely to result in injury to the intended victim than passivity. It has to do with criminals finding overwhelming force more persuasive than pleading.

      Encouraging people to forgive the offender would be far more constructive, otherwise the victim has the anguish of the crime itself, *and* of the bitter resentment they feel towards the offender. Don't you agree?

      I'm well aware of the benefits of forgiveness. However forgiveness, like sex, is wonderful if you choose it but a terrible injustice if it is forced on you. I'd no more have a state enforced system of forgiveness than I would state enforced sex.

    308. Re:Poetic justice? by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      How do you quote by the way? I use bold/italic at the moment... Positive results are obtained through positive action. Negative results are obtained through negative action. Behaviourism, while not good as a total philosophy, has certainly been well demonstrated to be effective. If you wish to promote the greatest happiness etc, you implement a system of punishment and reward to encourage positive action and discourage negative action.

      Okay, as far as it stops future crimes, I'm happy with that. As long as it's done for that reason.

      Nonsense. A portion will, but many people will moderate their behaviour based on expected outcomes, including but not limited to punishments. You clearly have not done even the most cursory research of this topic. Granted, punishment is not enough to stop a behaviour given strong enough reasons to engage in it, but in general it is very effective. I've been told by people who have been to countries with Sharia law that you can leave your wallet on the bonnet of your car and it won't be taken. That's not meant to be an endorsement of Sharia but the claim that punishment doesn't discourage the targeted behaviour is not true.

      Well you're right about the research thing to an extent. However, people on here have said that punishment and/or prison doesn't drop the crime rate one bit. I think they mentioned studies too - who do I listen to? Any peer reviewed studies out there? But great news - I agree with you if it really does help prevent crimes.

      Plea with them? HA! You think force won't stop them but asking them nicely will?

      I'm talking about for the cases where they are even starting to think about what they've done. Obviously there will be many people who can't be helped, and I suppose a livable prison is the only answer here, since the damage they will cause outside prison is greater than the 'punishment' for that criminal in prison.

      but a terrible injustice if it is forced on you

      Well of course, but I mean it's not really the kind of thing that can forced anyway (easy to hide, but the bitterness can still be hidden inside). It's up to each person. I'm just speaking ideally...

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    309. Re:Poetic justice? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      How do you quote by the way?

      <quote></quote>
      See the Allowed HTML section when posting. Otherwise if you see formatting you want to use, open that post in a new tab and view the source.

      Well you're right about the research thing to an extent. However, people on here have said that punishment and/or prison doesn't drop the crime rate one bit. I think they mentioned studies too - who do I listen to? Any peer reviewed studies out there? But great news - I agree with you if it really does help prevent crimes.

      It is one of the mainstays of how you train pets and children. It is applicable to our everyday life all the time. It is even contained in your own ideas, although you want to replace harder punishments with societal disapproval (which is a necessary part of the whole system, I will acknowledge). It is not enough by itself, so watch out for that in any study. Punishment can do a great deal to reduce theft, but not if people are hungry, for example. Just look to any country where people do not expect to be punished for a given crime, then at instances where people do expect to be punished. When, for example, did discriminating against people based on sexual preference become less likely to occur? When people/corps started getting punished. Do people expect to be punished for smoking marijuana? Generally no, and it is widespread. Do harsh penalties for drug dealing stop it? For people with no other viable source of income, no, for people who think they will get away with it, no. Personally though, I know people who have no objection to marijuana but won't get involved in the trade simply because it is illegal and carries punishment.

      However there is another side to it also, that if the justice system does not punish, sooner or later individuals will take that into their own hands. A refusal to punish creates vigilantism. I don't have a specific study to point you to but the whole idea that government is necessary at all is that you need an organisation capable of enforcing law, law predominantly being a set of rules designed to protect us from each other. If disapproving of people and asking them to stop was enough, the court system would never have come about.

      Well of course, but I mean it's not really the kind of thing that can forced anyway (easy to hide, but the bitterness can still be hidden inside). It's up to each person. I'm just speaking ideally...

      Ideally, yes, you are right, everyone should forgive and people would be eager to do good to each other and not evil. However I don't think we should base our court system and laws on that since it isn't real.

    310. Re:Poetic justice? by rtechie · · Score: 1

      The death penalty isn't an effective deterrent in the US because it's so rare.

      This doesn't follow at all. Yes, executing MORE people would generate MORE fear would would generate greater deterrence. But it does not follow that there is NO deterrent effect from executing a smaller number of people. According to your reasoning if US executes 100 people in 2009 the death penalty "works" but if the US only executes 25 people the death penalty DOES NOT "work". And the exact number of people executed in the US is hardly common knowledge so I fail to see how this would have an affect on perception. On top of all that, a death sentence, even if you're not executed is in itself a more sever sentence than a life sentence due to segregation and special restrictions on death row inmates.

  3. What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So do all the kids still have these marks on their records?

    If so then these judges did permanent damage to these individuals. The judges should be charged with much more serious crimes. One count for every person they fucked over. Judges especially need to be held to higher standards, put them in prison for life.

    1. Re:What about the kids? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      So do all the kids still have these marks on their records?

      Juvenile records are sealed when you reach the age of majority (18), and can neither be looked at (theoretically) nor used against you (again, theoretically) as an adult.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:What about the kids? by unitron · · Score: 1

      The judges should be charged with much more serious crimes.

      I'm thinking it would be lovely if they could be charged with kidnapping in each instance, with sentences to be served consecutively. They should definitely be convicted of federal felony charges. Speaking of federal, I wnat to see the IRS all over this. There's bound to be some tax evasion going on in connection with that front company.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    3. Re:What about the kids? by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's not really the point. All of these kids should have their convictions vacated, and the DA's office should determine which of them, if any, they want to re-try.

      The records may be sealed, but they still exist, and they can still be accessed in reality. Furthermore, the kids still have the feeling that they've been railroaded by the system. Doing the right thing here could at least give some of them the impression that the system is capable of doing more than unjustly imprisoning them. Carrying around a chip on their shoulder that the system is out to get them will greatly impact their direction in life.

    4. Re:What about the kids? by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Juvenile records are sealed when you reach the age of majority (18), and can neither be looked at (theoretically) nor used against you (again, theoretically) as an adult.

      That may be true in some places, but it's not guaranteed to be true - even in the US. I talked to a court clerk in my hometown about this (no, I don't have a record myself), and was told that if I did have a record and wanted it sealed, I'd have to appear before a judge to request the sealing.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    5. Re:What about the kids? by ThogScully · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Putting them away for life just makes them a taxpayer burden. They aren't a threat to the public in any way. Instead, they should be punished appropriately. Obviously, disbarred, fined heavily since they likely aren't scraping for cash after all those kickbacks, lots of community service, loss of retirement/pension income, and a nice big felony record that will keep them from ever getting a decent job again.
      -N

      --
      I've nothing to say here...
    6. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The judges are one problem, and I'm glad they're getting what they deserve; my only hope is that the fuckers running these prisons and profiting off of it (keep in mind, they probably pulled in far more money than the judges did) have to get butt raped in big boy jail.

      Note that in some of these cases, the profit came right out of the pockets of the people that got fucked:

      As a result of the judges' corruption, parents were forced to pay for the "wrongful incarceration" of their children, the suit said. Some parents had their wages garnished, public assistance benefits taken and social security benefits seized.

      (Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h88VgykKcn87UozOYaETJS6yufvgD96B0ID01)

    7. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is correct. If a cop is found to be dirty later, every person that they arrested and put in jail can get their conviction vacated. Why not the same for the judge? It should be since they have much more control. They can easily "railroad" a trial.

    8. Re:What about the kids? by m0s3m8n · · Score: 1

      Judges especially need to be held to higher standards, put them in prison for life.

      Amen to that Brother.

      --
      Conservative, mod down for violating /. political norms.
    9. Re:What about the kids? by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      They may be sealed, but most official documents where they want to find out your criminal history will ASK you to provide any criminal history, whether or not it was sealed, under penalty of perjury.

      This goes for government jobs and firearms licensing.

      The only place where sealing a record may protect you, is when it comes to superficial background checks by non-government employers.

    10. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So do all the kids still have these marks on their records?

      Juvenile records are sealed when you reach the age of majority (18), and can neither be looked at (theoretically) nor used against you (again, theoretically) as an adult.

      So wait, if they're sealed to never be looked at again... why aren't they destroyed instead?

    11. Re:What about the kids? by BigGar' · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While I agree that all the kids should have their convictions vacated & do not think it's a reasonable use of resources to retry any of them with the possible exception of a kid convicted of a violent crime who's sentence would be shortened by the vacating of the conviction. Pretty much all, if not all, of them should get a pass on this, the state had their shot & the state f'd it up through the corruption of the person presiding over the trial for personal gain.

      --


      Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
    12. Re:What about the kids? by good+soldier+svejk · · Score: 1

      According another article I read, the state is expunging the records of all of these kids. IMO they should be compensated as well.

      --
      It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

      -James Baldwin
    13. Re:What about the kids? by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      The FBI and the US Military can see those records. Most likely other agencies as well. Not sure about this one but I think that in at least California the seal has to be requested.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    14. Re:What about the kids? by good+soldier+svejk · · Score: 3, Informative

      Unless your Mayor is Rudy Guilliani. He will take your sealed record and expose it on TV, claiming the cops had a right to murder you after you refused to sell them drugs, because when you were a kid you once got is a fight over $.25. Then he will say you are "no choirboy," even though you in fact were a choirboy.

      --
      It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

      -James Baldwin
    15. Re:What about the kids? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's a myth. Most states got rid of those kinds of expurgation laws back in the 1980's. A felony conviction will still follow you, juvenile or not (unless you get some sort of gubernatorial pardon maybe).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    16. Re:What about the kids? by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Because the government doesn't like to get rid of things. They archive old records and mothball old equipment but almost never actually destroy anything.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    17. Re:What about the kids? by Br00se · · Score: 1

      I believe a re-trial would violate double jeopardy. Someone should look at the cases one and a time and look for abuses. There are bound to be a few cases where the kids were actually guilty of something worth punishing them for. The hard part will be determining what is fair.

      So does anyone know if the judges are immune to civil actions? What would it take to strip them of that if they are?

    18. Re:What about the kids? by mea37 · · Score: 1

      TFA only says that the sentencing was corrupt. I've never seen a criminal record (certainly not a juvenile record); does it actually reflect the exact sentence, or just the conviction?

    19. Re:What about the kids? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      putting someone in prison also sends sends a message - and IMO in this case it would be very appropriate.

      Let's imagine you're a judge of not particularly strong moral fiber and offered kickbacks, are you more likely to take them if the possible penalties involve (a) community service, or (b) hard time?

    20. Re:What about the kids? by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      What if it was a chip IN their shoulder?

      Actual permanent damage done to the kid as a result of being wrongfully jailed. Not just being chipped, but maybe subsequent assaults, or injuries picked up in the jail, or medical situations that arose there.

      These judges need to be burned three different ways.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    21. Re:What about the kids? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Further, they should be put to work getting those kids' education back on track, including assisting them in every possible way to get into college. They should also be paying a huge damages award for each kid sentenced.

    22. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Force them to register as sexual predators...

    23. Re:What about the kids? by mike2R · · Score: 1

      Putting them away for life just makes them a taxpayer burden. They aren't a threat to the public in any way.

      But containment is only one reason to imprison criminals. The others are rehabilitation, deterrence and retribution. Dunno how rehabilitation plays here, but I think deterrence requires them to be punished severely as an example to other judges who might consider doing something like this. And as for retribution...

      Shit, this story on slashdot is the first I've heard of this and I'm genuinely shocked. These kids got put into prison by corrupt judges, they have a right to see these criminals punished in the same way they were, and the state has a duty to do so, both to these kids and to justice itself.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    24. Re:What about the kids? by timpintsch · · Score: 0

      There is currently a case in front of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court brought by the Juvenile Law Center of Philadelphia surrounding Juveniles sentenced by these two judges who did not have and were not permitted adequate legal representation. This is a far bigger situation then just this one person sentenced for a MySpace flame, other kids were given harsh sentences above and beyond prosecutor recommendations in appropriate sentencing. This is really a big deal for our area, and the Feds are still digging for more.

    25. Re:What about the kids? by norminator · · Score: 1

      Tell that to Dwight Schrute! He'll find out if you went to juvy!

    26. Re:What about the kids? by braeldiil · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can't go after a judge for anything he does in court, except to impeach him. He could declare you guilty, pull out a gun, and shoot you mid-session and the only remedy would be impeachment. No criminal or civil penalties could apply. In this case, they can hit the judge for taking bribes, but there's no way to hit them for the over-sentencing.

      While annoying in cases like this, this is actually an important feature of American jurisprudence. The only real way to guarentee judicial independence is to grant it to them unconditionally. If you leave a loophole to go after abuse, it will quickly be used to squelch unpopular decisions. Unfortunately, that means you occasionally have to live with the side effects.

    27. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Putting them away for life just makes them a taxpayer burden. They aren't a threat to the public in any way.

      Arguments could be either way as to whether these judges continue to be dangerous.

      The broader point, though, is that people don't get locked up to make it physically impossible to commit more crimes, people get locked up as a deterrent (punishment). Under the current system, all kinds of violent criminals are back out on the street after a couple years.

      There is certainly a case to be made for trying to craft a justice system that is more about rehabilitation and less about deterrent (punishment) but that's not the system we have now.

      Speaking of deterrent, what these judges are alleged to have done is, IMHO, about the worst thing a person can possibly do; worse than child molesting, serial killing, etc. Generally, I'm opposed to the death penalty but in this case, while I wouldn't be in favor, I wouldn't be particularly opposed either. If the allegations are true then, at the very least, these judges need to get life without parole.

    28. Re:What about the kids? by pluther · · Score: 2, Informative

      Double-jeopardy doesn't apply to someone found guilty. Re-trying them would probably be the same as if they filed an appeal, which happens all the time. Even for those who actually were guilty of something, the sentence will likely be found to far outweigh what's appropriate for the crime.

      Also, I believe that a judge is immune to prosecution for actions undertaken as a judge. However, courts may rule that accepting bribes to damage children for his own profit may be outside the scope of this duties, thus opening him to civil liability.

      Of course, IANAL, so this is just a (semi-educated) guess, not a legal opinion.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    29. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, putting them away would be a burden to the taxpayers. But there would be less corruption if abuse of this kind were dealt with harshly. Disbarring and a fine? BFD. Throwing them into the same place where they got kickbacks from sends a message to them and others of their ilk that that sort of behavior is unacceptable and there are dire consequences for screwing up people's lives for a buck.

    30. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I see it, each and every case that these judges presided over from 2002 (when this started) needs to be revisited. Rest assured that lawyers are already working on this on behalf of some of the victims of this gross fraud.

      It is likely that every conviction is now unsafe and will need to be retried or just wiped out.

      In each of these cases, the people who were wrongfully jailed will be seeking compensation. Let's say that averages out at $25,000 per case.

      So besides the cost of retrying the convictions (if they do that), that's probably a good $125,000,000 that should be paid out in compensation for wrongful imprisonment. Consider that even in the cases where the person should have been sent off, there is a strong chance that their sentences were lengthened.

      Or will all the convicted people be kept in jail/institutions regardless of the unsafeness of the convictions? Morally and ethically this would be wrong, but morals and ethics don't seem to apply to justice and the law.

      Regardless, those private institutions that got involved in this fraud should be shut down immediately.

    31. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A firing squad would be punishing them appropriately, and send a much better message to the next guy.

      Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison makes a nice second-best answer.

      IMO.

    32. Re:What about the kids? by tixxit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Prison is about more than just keeping threats away. They also act as deterrents for people not in prison, a source of retribution for the victims, and rehabilitation for the inmates. What he did was utterly despicable. The article said the average rate of sending youths to juvie was 1/10, and the judge was sending them at a rate of 2.5/10. That means approx. 3000 youths were sent to prison that should not have been. 3000 people had their lives affected by this. What's 3+ months of your childhood worth to you? Multiply that by 3000. The judges should be locked away for life.

    33. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You mean,

      Juvenile records are supposed to be sealed when you reach the age of majority(18), ...

      FTFY

      The courts DO NOT work the way people conceptually think they work. They are prone to, and even more subject to, error and corruption just like every other industry.

      Have known, and know several people who are in their late 20's who have been burned cause their juvenile records, WERE NOT, as you say "sealed". And, they were looking at $10,000+ in legal fees, and 100+ hours of their own time to get their records sealed. Something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    34. Re:What about the kids? by hattig · · Score: 1

      It seems that they will lose their pensions.

      All of the money they received in kickbacks should go towards a compensation scheme.

      Then we can start talking about applying fines, on what they have left afterwards.

      Imagine if they had only done it for half of the cases they actually did it for. They might never have been found. Greed made them take risks, instead of sending down 1 in 8 (a small fraction more than usual), they sent down 1 in 4, an astounding fraction that should have been noted far far earlier and acted upon.

    35. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are also the other long term side effects of the imprisonment. I doubt that they minors had access to the same level of education that they received while not in prison. This would have a long term affect on their ability to get into college and impact their ability to earn a decent wage. Even if the records are sealed what are you supposed to put on that college submission. Yeah graduated from Blah Blah Corporate Prison system?

    36. Re:What about the kids? by hattig · · Score: 1

      Oh that's just doubly scummy. I truly hope that the parents don't leave it at that, but fight to get their money back, and compensation on top. It'll probably cost the better part of a quarter of a billion to the taxpayers of the state to set this all right. That should be factored into the sentencing for the judges, and the business owners involved. Hopefully all the fees for the wrongfully imprisoned will be extracted from these businesses because they were illicit earnings.

    37. Re:What about the kids? by claar · · Score: 1

      You can't go after a judge for anything he does in court, except to impeach him. He could declare you guilty, pull out a gun, and shoot you mid-session and the only remedy would be impeachment.

      Is this true? I can see how it could be, but I'd like to mark this comment: [citation needed]

      --
      I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...
    38. Re:What about the kids? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      Appeals are made after the trial and are not concerned with fact-finding (what the trial does) but with procedure and law. Anyway, I'm sure that these trials (whether they are thrown out or not) are res judicata. If they're not though, I doubt that any DA would want to deal with this can of worms anyway since they're elected officials.

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    39. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's complete baloney. Remember the "penis pump" judge? He was convicted on four felonies for his vulgar behavior while on the bench.

    40. Re:What about the kids? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They aren't a threat to the public in any way.

      No. This is collusion to commit kidnapping for profit.

      Someone with this little regard for the basic human rights of others is the worst threat to the public. They need to be forcibly segregated from the rest of us, in a place where they can receive whatever treatment is necessary to fix their broken brains, until such time as they are capable of treating their fellow humans with at least the minimum level of respect necessary to trust them to roam free among us.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    41. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my friends tell me to apply to take the bar exam that - 1 the bar has access to records otherwise not normally available and 2 you have to provide them the details of any past trouble regardless of status (such as expunged, occured while a minor) as well as consent to them obtaining original records themselves. if you mess up any of this and they find out, you probably can't take the bar. if you tell them the truth, you may not be accepted. I imagine the same is true for other things like certain law enforcement agencies, political jobs, sensitive positions requiring special clearances, etc.

    42. Re:What about the kids? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      That's a myth. Most states got rid of those kinds of expurgation laws back in the 1980's. A felony conviction will still follow you, juvenile or not (unless you get some sort of gubernatorial pardon maybe).

      Oddly enough, I can't find any evidence to support your statement unless you're restricting your definition of "felony conviction" to "violent crime felony conviction".

      Even in that case, your statement only applies if the crime was tried in adult court (some states do, some don't), and if a Court Order is obtained granting access to the records. Or if the conviction was in Tennessee (which pretty much makes violent crime felony convictions by juveniles over 14 publicly available information).

      And even in the restricted sense of violent crimes, I can't find any evidence that "most" states do this. Some states, yes, but not most.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    43. Re:What about the kids? by ikarous · · Score: 1

      At the very least, these kids will have learned not to blindly trust authority. Most of my friends had more prosperous childhoods than did I, and it is amazing to me how many of them honestly believe that all policemen are incorruptible, that the justice system is never wrong, and that large corporations always have the peoples' welfare at heart.

      That said, these kids have been used as cash cows. Their sentences should be nulled and their records cleared. The state will probably try to avoid it, though, since re-trying them would cost a lot of money. Gotta build those football stadiums, ya know.

    44. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False.

    45. Re:What about the kids? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      That's where lynch mobs come in as an important component of our justice system.

    46. Re:What about the kids? by azakem · · Score: 1

      Retribution and deterrence are two of the fundamental purposes of criminal law. These two judges have irreparably harmed their victims as well as the justice system itself. They were given positions of public trust and abused their power for monetary benefit at the expense of faith in the judiciary. If ever there were government servants who deserved life in prison for their offenses, it is these two judges.

    47. Re:What about the kids? by sexybomber · · Score: 1

      Also, I believe that a judge is immune to prosecution for actions undertaken as a judge.

      Not if they've abused their discretion, IIRC. That's very hard to establish, but certainly not impossible, and pretty clearly demonstrated in this case.

      Also, these fuckwit judges are facing a couple Federal charges for their actions, tax evasion among them. That's how they got Al Capone, remember. They'll be very, very lucky to avoid time in Federal PMITA prison. Not because the justice system itself would demand it, but because the presiding judge in the case would be run out of office by the community if he let them go free.

    48. Re:What about the kids? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      They are public officials, acting in the public capacity, severely harming thousands of citizens.

      That may be criminal confinement. That may be bribery. That may be kidnapping.

      But that is also treason. And treason carries one punishment for those found guilty.

      Execution.

      --
    49. Re:What about the kids? by squidinkcalligraphy · · Score: 1

      Kickbacks. Give em kickbacks. Lots of kicks in the back. That would be (the very beginnings of) some poetic justice.

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea" Gandhi, on Western Civilisation
    50. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but: Citation need. This post is not informative at all.

      As far as I know, in the state of Washington, no, convictions, felony or not, do not "follow you around" when you get them as a youth. They do indeed expunge.

      Mod this guy down unless some real information can be linked to.

      I really should stop surfing Slashdot...

    51. Re:What about the kids? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      But I bet it is damned hard applying to Harvard when your return address is Cell-1a, Juvenile Detention Facility, Pennsylvania.

    52. Re:What about the kids? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      The article said the average rate of sending youths to juvie was 1/10, and the judge was sending them at a rate of 2.5/10. That means approx. 3000 youths were sent to prison that should not have been. 3000 people had their lives affected by this.

      Worse than that. Even the 2000 people that would have been sent to juvie by other judges were given longer sentences than their crimes called for.

    53. Re:What about the kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that is also treason. And treason carries one punishment for those found guilty.

      Execution.

      Last time I checked capital treason is only available in time of a war or acting on behalf of acknowledged enemy of the USA. Otherwise the sentance ranges from 15 years to natural life in a Federal prision. So unless someone has evidence of links to international terrorists execution is probably off the table.

  4. No... by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TRUE poetic justice would see them incarcerated in the juvenile detention facilities themselves, surrounded by the very kids they sent there.

    1. Re:No... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      But still, if it sticks, the judges go to prison, lose their job, their legal and judicial career, and their pensions.

    2. Re:No... by ForrestFire439 · · Score: 1

      Judges? Convicted of throwing people in jail for money? These guys wont last 24 hours in a federal penitentiary. They're as good as dead.

      --
      "Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure." --Robert Heinlien
    3. Re:No... by mikesd81 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They'll plead to a minimal security facility and won't be in gen pop, much like cops are when they go to jail.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    4. Re:No... by MoeDrippins · · Score: 4, Funny

      TRUE poetic justice would see them incarcerated in the juvenile detention facilities themselves, surrounded by the very kids they sent there.

      ...with the kids reading poetry, preferably of Vogon origin, to them.

      --
      Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
    5. Re:No... by ccool · · Score: 1

      Actually, TRUE poetic and FAIR poetic might be a little dissimilar, because I would prefer that every case of juvenile incarceration done by these judge be reviewed.

      While this is happening, many kid may have been incarcerated with no real base... who knows

      I do believe that "judge corruption" is one of the worst crime ever. Whitout "clean judge" there is no justice. I also believe everyone, judge and whoever tried (and actually did) to corrupt the judge should be in prison and have some severe impact on everyone.

      In one way, no judge should feel to be "over the law" and they should be scared to be judge... Anyway, I must be day-dreaming again, because this kind of thing won't ever happen. I have never seen any judge be hard on their colleges/peers.

    6. Re:No... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Seems the normal ratio was 10:100 (10 to detention out of 100 defendants), he sent 25:100, so that's 3000 extra juveniles?

      Imagine 3000 youths (and their friends, parents, relatives) feeling like this:

      "I felt like I had been thrown into some surreal sort of nightmare," said Hillary, 17, who was sentenced in 2007. "All I wanted to know was how this could be fair and why the judge would do such a thing."

      Y'know the "child abuse"/"protect the children" card is popular nowadays, if he really wrongly sent juveniles to prison, then he's practically a serial child abuser.

      --
    7. Re:No... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Just depends on how handsome they are. If they look good enough, some prisoners might want to keep them alive, for their personal enjoyment...

    8. Re:No... by QuietR10t · · Score: 1

      Hollywood style poetic justice would name a justice Tango and the other Cash.

    9. Re:No... by Alinabi · · Score: 1

      They'll plead to a minimal security facility and won't be in gen pop, much like cops are when they go to jail.

      Why aren't cops in gen pop when they go to jail? They are no longer cops at that point, so they deserve no special treatment.

      --
      "You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
    10. Re:No... by splatter · · Score: 1

      because even crooked cops are still protected by that thin blue line.

      God forbid they have to have to go to jail like all the others they put there some with no merit, but then again god forbid they actually uphold the law not just enforce it.

      --
      "(I) have this unfortunate condition that causes me not to believe a single thing any politician says when a mic's on.
    11. Re:No... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Because they will live approximately as long as a snowflake in Hell.

      Actually, if they do last longer, it's because the inmates took the time to do a little torture.

      I'm not saying cops are special, but they do also have special population centers for gays and other people likely to be targeted by the general population.

      The state can be sued for negligence and quite possibly manslaughter if they are putting anyone that they know will get killed into a position where there is almost a 100% chance that they won't last a year. After all, unless you have a death sentence, you are expected to walk out of the prison at the end of it and the state is expected to make sure you are still there to walk out the door, within reason.

      If they want to have bad cops pay with their lives for being corrupt, then that needs to be legislated. Administrative executions are not the way anyone wants to go, I hope.

    12. Re:No... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Reality.

      Do you want to make every prison sentence for cops also a death sentence?

    13. Re:No... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      TRUE poetic justice would see them incarcerated in the juvenile detention facilities themselves, surrounded by the very kids they sent there.

      ... who then would educate the judge about their evil ways through rhyming couplets, rapped to them hip-hop style.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    14. Re:No... by Alinabi · · Score: 1

      The state can be sued for negligence and quite possibly manslaughter

      The state should be sued for criminal negligence every time someone gets killed or raped in prison.

      --
      "You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
    15. Re:No... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      It's very likely a prison rape for most who enter, and murder for others. And the cop chose to do X and be found guilty by a group of his "peers", whoever that is.

      Yeah, to General you go.

      --
    16. Re:No... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Sued is usually a response to a tort claim.

      I believe you're looking at jailtime for criminal negligence. And that person who is responsible is the prison warden.

      --
    17. Re:No... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, every prison sentence for corruption, sure.

      The only thing worse than a corrupt cop is a corrupt judge. A death sentence it too lenient. The prison population will work out something far more cruel, though death will follow in good time. That seems totally appropriate. A criminal that I'm not legally allowed to defend myself against deserves the very worst that can be devised.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    18. Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like they'll have their sentences suspended and retire to their mansions. They might lose their country club memberships though.

  5. Recourse by zaffir · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What sort of recourse does the girl have? Are there protections preventing her from suing for having three months of her life wasted?

    --
    "Upon attaching the waterblock to my penis, I began to notice that I know nothing about computers." -- JRockway
    1. Re:Recourse by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 5, Funny

      She obviously spends a lot of time on MySpace, so she's probably already wasted a lot more than three months anyway.

    2. Re:Recourse by wwwillem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For her this will be much worse than just three months wasted. I guess she will now have a "criminal record". Which means that the rest of her life she will have problems getting visa's, she will have rather tough job interviews, etc. Because often enough there is the simple question "were you ever.....". And those questions aren't distinguishing between what the conviction was for, and how long ago it happened. Very sad....

      --
      Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
    3. Re:Recourse by mikesd81 · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    4. Re:Recourse by afidel · · Score: 1

      3 months = misdemeanor = little problems. Also she is a juvenile so getting the record sealed will be easy.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Recourse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What sort of recourse does the girl have? Are there protections preventing her from suing for having three months of her life wasted?

      Whatever it is, it would have to be class action. Probably against the state for employing corrupt judges. But they're elected down there aren't they? So I don't know what kind of liability the state faces in this case, since the judges represented the will of the people. (Obviously the judges failed in this regard, but the people chose them).

    6. Re:Recourse by mikesd81 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Could it be I just got home from working all night and I was typing fast and every other fucking time I wrote suit in a comment in this story I got it right? Go away.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    7. Re:Recourse by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Or, are most users these days actually unable to tell the difference between SUIT and SUITE?

      With the judge throwing 5000 kids in the slammer on their parents' dimes for his own profit, the lawyers were not going to fit everyone into a single or even a double, so they had to get a suite to be sure they had enough space.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    8. Re:Recourse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but "I was tired and in a hurry" is no excuse. Preview your post and correct it before submitting.

      No, you go away. It's not my fault that you appear to be unable to spell, I just pointed it out.

    9. Re:Recourse by Doc+Daneeka · · Score: 1

      Once the record has been sealed or expunged, it no longer exists and cannot be used against you for civil or criminal reasons. If your (future) employer asks one of these "Were you ever ..." questions about your criminal record, you may give a truthful response, "Yes, ...", or a lawful response, "No, ...", because all that matters is what is on record. Of course, I need to make the disclaimer IANAL, etc.

    10. Re:Recourse by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      All the mistakess in this post are because I waz straining to take a crap at the same tyme.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    11. Re:Recourse by redxxx · · Score: 1

      What sort of recourse does the girl have? Are there protections preventing her from suing for having three months of her life wasted?

      There is a class action lawsuit in progress against the judges, and like 16 other parties. I don't know if this girl is part of it.

    12. Re:Recourse by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      I'm not speaking of laws here, but I don't think it should matter. The state is a representation of the people as well and should be held accountable. If they have to raise the taxes by $106 for each household to obtain the $500 million to get each of these kids $100k, I consider it fair(of course I doubt every child would get $100,000.)

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    13. Re:Recourse by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      This is America we're talking about. They won't raise taxes, they'll just take out debt.

      In America, it's a not a matter of whether we're going to fuck our kids. It's just a matter of when.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    14. Re:Recourse by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Little problems? You realize what almost certainly happened to her in there, don't you?

      It's only "hot" in those old women's prison movies. Not real life.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
  6. justice business by gowtah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what you get for setting up a privately-owned for-profit detention system.

    1. Re:justice business by fermion · · Score: 1

      This is what you get for using euphemisms like detention centers instead of jails, prisons, or punishment centers. What most kids do not realize is that life is unfair, and those that do engage in random foolish activity have every right to complain that they are unfairly punished, but that does not get their life back.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  7. worst scum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These two scumbags are in my state. And I'm in law school, so they also represent my profession. I've of course been following this story on the local media.

    They sent kids to privately owned and operated juvenile detention facilities in exchange for kickbacks. They ruined the lives of children for money.

    Hangings too good for 'em.

    1. Re:worst scum by sexybomber · · Score: 1

      These two scumbags are in my state. And I'm in law school, so they also represent my profession. I've of course been following this story on the local media.

      I am too. This, in a nutshell, is why people like you and me need to stick it out, pass the bar, and begin practicing; so worthless pricks like this get swiftly and brutally brought to justice.

    2. Re:worst scum by mikesd81 · · Score: 1

      The Standard Speaker and Pottsville Republican had some really good articles on this the last few days. I live in Schuylkill County, they're the best papers we have.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    3. Re:worst scum by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      if I were every to support a death penalty (which I don't) it would be exclusively for war crimes, and judicial/police/political corruption.

      Murderers sure suck, but they aren't rational decision makers to begin with, so the deterrent factor doesn't matter. Corrupt government officials wield the full power of the state and are truly hideous individuals.

    4. Re:worst scum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hanging's too good for 'em. Burning's too good for 'em. They ought to be cut into little pieces an buried alive. I'll kill 'em!!!!". There, fixed that for you. Courtesy of "Heavy Metal".

    5. Re:worst scum by RemoWilliams84 · · Score: 0, Funny

      How about this one:

      Biker 1: "I say we kill 'em."
      Biker 2: "I say we hange 'em, then we kill 'em."
      Lady Biker: "I say you let me have him first."
      All Bikers: "OOOOHHHHH!"

      Pee Wee's Big Adventure

      --
      "I don't have to think. I only have to do it. The results are always perfect, but that's old news." - Meat Puppets
    6. Re:worst scum by gr8_phk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So is anyone going after the people at the corporation? Clearly they bribed a judge right?

    7. Re:worst scum by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      I am too. This, in a nutshell, is why people like you and me need to stick it out, pass the bar, and begin practicing; so worthless pricks like this get swiftly and brutally brought to justice.

      Rock on! \o/ Best of luck, both of you...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    8. Re:worst scum by RuthlessMinx · · Score: 1

      Hangings too good for 'em.

      As another PA resident I whole heartedly agree. These were kids who made one mistake and are going to feel the repercussions for years throughout their college and professional lives.

      All of the cases this man judged will have to be examined to see whether the punishment fit the crime.

      As a law student do you know what will happen to these kids? Will their sentences stand? Will they have a note added onto their record to show they may not have deserved Juvee?

    9. Re:worst scum by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Offering a bribe shouldn't be illegal, accepting a bribe should be. This lets us test officials every now and again without being implicated.

      sidenote: Anyone here remember a Stephen King/Peter Straub book called "The Talisman"? My memory could be failing me, as I read it in 1986, but ISTR a similar setup there ... corrupt cops, court officials and childrens sanctuary, but I always thought "Nah, that could never happen". When did horror novels become state official instruction books?

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
  8. Satire? by wmbetts · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I didn't see the myspace page or know anything about that case, but he should have been disbarred for that ruling alone if it was strictly satire.

    --
    "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
    1. Re:Satire? by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

      Students don't have those kinds of rights, at least I'm sure that was the argument used.

    2. Re:Satire? by molog · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Students do have those rights. They should not face punishment from the government for their exercising free speech. The school, however, can punish them in the form of detention, suspension or expulsion.

      Molog

      --
      So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
      The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
    3. Re:Satire? by fosterNutrition · · Score: 5, Funny

      ... should have been disbarred for that ruling ...

      Dismembered. The word you are looking for is dismembered.

    4. Re:Satire? by mikesd81 · · Score: 1

      Well the Public Defendant or Lawyer could have appealed the sentencing.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    5. Re:Satire? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Can't be "strictly satire" in this case. You can make fun of your principal, but if you make actionable assertions, there is nothing to protect you from getting charged with/sued for libel.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:Satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which is generally a civil and not criminal matter, depending on state and jurisdiction. I'm guessing that there was absolutely no reason, if slander/libel was actually being charged, that it should have resulted in a criminal conviction.

    7. Re:Satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I can't figure out is why someone would be sent to what is essentially jail for the civil matter of defamation.

      It makes no sense. Obviously these guys are crooked but why the hell was any of this allowed in the first place?

    8. Re:Satire? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      There actually is such a thing as criminal libel, even in the US.

      According to Libel and the First Amendment (by Richard Labunski) "...judges in Pennsylvania were left substantial discretion to punish criminal libel because the (state) constitution left unresolved a standard for determining what publications were proper for public information (pg. 55)" (parenthetical notation on /., fuck yea).

      Sounds like that judge could do pretty much whatever he wanted. Newspapers are the ones who put backbone into first amendment law; they have money, and they have self-interest at stake. Without them threatening (or MySpace doing it) there would be no reason why the judge couldn't sentence her.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    9. Re:Satire? by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure a civil conviction for libel wouldn't get you thrown into juvie.

    10. Re:Satire? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Yea, I guess I should have posted a long-winded, well-sourced explanation of criminal libel 15 minutes before you posted your comment...Or something.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    11. Re:Satire? by tixxit · · Score: 1

      FTA: Only half the kids had representation. An appeal likely would've taken about as long as their sentences, but cost the parents a significant amount of money.

    12. Re:Satire? by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      Nobody has those rights of satire against what is considered a private individual.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    13. Re:Satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Into how many pieces?

    14. Re:Satire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree this is almost unthinkable, but it would still be interesting to read this "satire" (there are good jokes and bad ones). Have I missed the link or isn't the myspace-text available?

  9. Might as well paint a target on forehead by nobodyman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

    I dunno, man. I'd imagine that being a former judge in a prison is right up there with being a former prosecutor. I wouldn't be surprised if they have to keep him on 24-hour isolation and/or suicide watch. He deserves much worse, but I suspect this will not be a cakewalk for him either.

    1. Re:Might as well paint a target on forehead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't be surprised if they have to keep him on 24-hour isolation and/or suicide watch. He deserves much worse, but I suspect this will not be a cakewalk for him either.

      Depends on the type of prison he ends up in. I don't think he'll be going a Federal PMITA prison. Probably a nice resort with fences instead of bars.

    2. Re:Might as well paint a target on forehead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yea he should be helped with his suicide rather than prevented from it

    3. Re:Might as well paint a target on forehead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sentence the bastards to serving the remaining days of their lives in the Public School System - essentially the same as the prisons, just more weapons.

    4. Re:Might as well paint a target on forehead by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      He should be executed, seeing as how when the next president rolls in, he'll probably get a full pardon for political favors.

      You're looking for a silver lining in a pit full of razorblades.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
  10. One simple question sums it up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    1. Re:One simple question sums it up by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 1

      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
  11. Only 87 months? by pluther · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1. PA Child Care should be shut down. If their business model depends on crooked judges, their business model is wrong.

    2. Now every single case that ended with juveniles sentenced there should be reviewed. (Looks like they're only looking at the one judge's 5000 cases. They need to look at all of them.) The former judge should be billed for all expenses.

    3. Whoever paid the bribes, and whoever authorized them, and whoever knew about this business model and kept quiet, also need to be tried.

    4. An appropriate punishment would be a month in jail for every month spent in the facility for every inmate he wrongfully sent there.

    5. No profit.

    --
    If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    1. Re:Only 87 months? by mikesd81 · · Score: 5, Informative

      2. Now every single case that ended with juveniles sentenced there should be reviewed. (Looks like they're only looking at the one judge's 5000 cases. They need to look at all of them.) The former judge should be billed for all expenses.

      They are all being reviewed.

      3. Whoever paid the bribes, and whoever authorized them, and whoever knew about this business model and kept quiet, also need to be tried.

      They are actually the ones that turned them in.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    2. Re:Only 87 months? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      on (2), the state needs to pay out compensation for those wrongly imprisoned, and bill the ex-judge to make it back. The kids (and their families) should not have to go without actually recieving due compensation because the ex-judges clearly won't have enough assets to compensate all of them.

      --
      FGD 135
    3. Re:Only 87 months? by afidel · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm sorry but we are so worried about child molestors but realistically what these guys did is probably worse to the long term welfare of these childrens mental health. In this case I would say the corporate death penalty for PA Child Care is appropriate and RICO charges against all involved parties.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:Only 87 months? by Perl-Pusher · · Score: 1

      And every dime made should go to the kids who's lives were ruined. I would make those judges pay the 2.6 million and the company running the center 10 times that.

    5. Re:Only 87 months? by boombaard · · Score: 1

      Those black folks who are released after 25+ years in prison because they are somewhat belatedly found innocent (and who got there through sheer negligence/racism) never get any government compensation either. why should those kids get anything?
      AFAIK the state cannot be sued, and cannot/need not admit guilt if they do something wrong. All they are required to do is release you [and perhaps say "oops"].

    6. Re:Only 87 months? by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Even in the current "mortgage fraud isn't a crime" and "CEOs looting their companies isn't a crime" environment, bribing a judge is still going to be treated as seriously. You can't ignore corruption that is that blatant.

      2. will happen no matter what, since every single such juvenile just got grounds for appeal, and it'll be great case history material so someone will represent either for a cut of any settlement or pro-bono for the civil liberties defender types. The state might try and recover costs, but it won't be by sending a bill it'd be plain old suing.

      It sounds like a "we can prove they got paid, proving it was a bribe is harder, so charge them with tax related offenses on that income" case. Which depending on what the plea bargaining gave them might leave open bribery related charges later - those are always going to be hard to prove though.

      I would expect prosecutors to go after them for everything they possiblt can. Corrupt judges destroy all faith in the legal system, it's the worst case scenario for the legal system and so the all sides will want to clean house.

    7. Re:Only 87 months? by espiesp · · Score: 1

      2.6 Million / 5000 = 520

      Pretty sad that one persons freedom is only worth $520.

    8. Re:Only 87 months? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      Wait, so you don't actually have the right to not be wrongly imprisoned?

      --
      FGD 135
    9. Re:Only 87 months? by mazarin5 · · Score: 1

      The difference being that the state can say "Whoops! You shouldn't be in jail," but in most cases you'll have a hard time convincing anybody that they did it on purpose. With these judges, we already know they did.

      --
      Fnord.
    10. Re:Only 87 months? by phorm · · Score: 1

      Whoever paid the bribes, and whoever authorized them, and whoever knew about this business model and kept quiet, also need to be tried.

      I'm not sure how it started, but it sounds like the judge was demanding kickbacks, and possibly also applying pressure to the lawyers supplying them as well.

      âoeAs a lawyer, Bob Powell knew better than most the consequences of his silence, but as a lawyer, was also particularly vulnerable to the pressures that these Judges could bring to bear on him and his clients.â

      I wonder if this is a convenient excuse, or whether the judge was actually threatening the lawyer(s) as well?

    11. Re:Only 87 months? by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      At least it's not England. If you are found to have been wrongfully convicted in England, you have to pay the government back for every month you were in jail, since you were there eating their food and using their shelter under false pretenses.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    12. Re:Only 87 months? by edward2020 · · Score: 1

      You can sue states - you just need their permission lol.

      --
      Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon.
    13. Re:Only 87 months? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It says that Powell, a lawyer, was one of the co-owners of the detention facility? And he's claiming that "as a lawyer [he] was also particularly vulnerable to the pressures that these Judges could bring to bear on him and his clients"? As a lawyer, he's an officer of the court, he shouldn't have any business being that and simultaneously owning any part of a prison. It's a fairly obvious conflict of interest. I'm sure that, of course, he would have argued, and many would have agreed, that there wasn't a conflict of interest. But, now that he's obviously made some sort of deal to save his skin, all of a sudden he was "particularly vulnerable" in his position. i.e., a massive conflict of interest existed. Gee, what a shock.

    14. Re:Only 87 months? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Those black folks who are released after 25+ years in prison because they are somewhat belatedly found innocent (and who got there through sheer negligence/racism) never get any government compensation either. why should those kids get anything?

      Did it ever occur to you that we should have both? Compensation for innocent men released after a couple decades in prison AND kids who were wrongly sent to juvi for a few months?

    15. Re:Only 87 months? by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      Even if all of the Judge's assets are seized, he'd never have enough money to pay for five thousand trials.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    16. Re:Only 87 months? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Based on the rate he sentenced kids to serve time vs. the average for the county and 3 months each, he should be done paying for his crime in 187 years or so.

    17. Re:Only 87 months? by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      All the 5000 cases are being reviewed, but the GP was wanting every case that ended with a child sent to this facility to be looked at, not just the ones by the judges in question. We know the prison was giving kickbacks to one judge, we should assume it was giving them for every prisoner it ever received, and review every case and every judge that ever went near the facility.

    18. Re:Only 87 months? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      Well, yes, but at least that's about a 10% deduction from a payment which is made. I think I'd rather get some money for loss of earnings and loss of liberty, and then have it deducted for room & board, than just be given nothing, and told to suck it up.

      --
      FGD 135
  12. There is actually by mikesd81 · · Score: 4, Informative

    A class action lawsuit being brought against the judges. Here is a link to the local paper, The Standard Speaker, about the pleas.

    The judge has has his pension and pay terminated. I'm from around that area and it's actually big talk. If you search through the Standard Speaker site you'll see some comments from kids that were sent there.

    An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

    --
    That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    1. Re:There is actually by jimbobborg · · Score: 0

      Since they are juveniles, their records are wiped when they turn 18.

    2. Re:There is actually by JohnFluxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      You're making the assumption that even though the sentence was wrong, the judgement was not. You're assuming that a 'non-corrupt' judge would have also found them all guilty.

    3. Re:There is actually by YouWantFriesWithThat · · Score: 1

      these judges would sentence defendants outrageously to make a buck. how can you blindly trust the verdict that they pass or the instruction that they give a jury (if applicable).

      corrupt judge = new trials, or there is no justice to be found in the courts.

    4. Re:There is actually by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      At least in the case of Hillary Transue there was no crime, satire is constitutionally protect free speech. The judge was obviously making up crimes so he could sentence more kids to jail. Every one of the cases this judge had will have to be reviewed and retried, or if that's too expensive, they'll just have to expunge the records of everyone.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    5. Re:There is actually by mikesd81 · · Score: 1

      The proper sentence in this case should have been an ARD program and probation. In PA ARD (Accelerated Rehabilitation Disposition)will allow you to expunge your record if after probation if it's your first offense.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    6. Re:There is actually by oboreruhito · · Score: 1
      "An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids."

      IANAL, but juvenile disciplinary records are sealed in most/all states, and tough to open. Turn 18 and most people won't know you ever went unless you commit a crime or they, um, have access to a corrupt public official. Like this one.

    7. Re:There is actually by aquabat · · Score: 1

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      Doesn't mean the crime was committed either. Since the judge didn't get paid unless the kids got sentenced to PA Child Care, the judge's rulings on the cases are suspect. He had a personal motivation to find them guilty. At the very least, the rulings should be discarded and the kids should be given new trials with a new judge. IANAL; can a lawyer sharpen this argument up for me?

      --
      A republic cannot succeed till it contains a certain body of men imbued with the principles of justice and honour.
    8. Re:There is actually by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Informative

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      Yes but in these cases, a judge had the choice for leniency especially when the offender had no records. In the article, the judges sentenced juveniles to harsher penalties than even the prosecutors wanted in some cases. Satirizing your school principal shouldn't get you 90 days in a center. Getting into a fight at school was also 90 days. In both cases neither defendant had previous records.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    9. Re:There is actually by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 1

      First of all, thanks for posting those links - it was nice seeing more information about this case.

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      You make a good case that just because the sentencing was wrong, that it doesn't mean that the crime wasn't committed. However, I feel that in a situation like this, the whole process is tainted. As another poster pointed out in response, are we sure that another judge would have sentenced them to the same? If all of these cases were tried before a jury, then that's one thing, but you really need to have a clean judge to ensure that something in the process does not influence the wrong decision. Still, most of the cases are being reviewed, which I think is the proper thing to do.

    10. Re:There is actually by pdabbadabba · · Score: 1

      Although, there is the little known fact that when doing things like applying to law school you are still expected to disclose (and explain)d prior convictions even if you were a juvenile and your record was expunged. I imagine the same is true when you apply to the Bar. I went through this process and was surprised to find this wording on many schools' applications.

      I'm sure they will have no problem explaining this away given how much attention the situation has received, but it will still be a nuisance.

    11. Re:There is actually by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      That's just sick, dude. If the judge was getting kickbacks for sending people to prison, then that casts a huge doubt on the guilt of the defendent. Release or re-trial. Either way is better than an automatic assumption of guilt.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    12. Re:There is actually by mikesd81 · · Score: 0, Troll

      But you have to remember that a cop has to press the charges to be heard before the judge, and a prosecutor argue the case. So I would think if the case was worth trying or pressing charges, then the crime did happen.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    13. Re:There is actually by yashachan · · Score: 1

      As said here, the sealing/wiping of records is all "theory"; the records can still be viewed by some government agencies and can prevent you from getting some government jobs (or security clearances).

    14. Re:There is actually by mikesd81 · · Score: 0

      I get the Standard Speaker and the Pottsville Republican every day on the way to work, they have good articles about this. If you want more information from a local paper here try scouring The Morning Call.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    15. Re:There is actually by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      My understanding is that jury trials in juvenile court are rare, with both the verdict and the sentencing normally being determined by a judge.

      I don't know if there was any malfeasance involved in the verdicts of these cases, but I wouldn't rule it out yet.

    16. Re:There is actually by Ken+D · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Um..... WHAT?!

      So you're position is that if a cop and a prosecutor think you are guilty, then you must be guilty and we should just skip the whole "fair trial" thing?

      it's a sad sad world when people don't understand the point of checks and balances.

    17. Re:There is actually by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 2

      please, do us all a favour, if you ever get called up for jury service, find a way to get out of it.

      --
      FGD 135
    18. Re:There is actually by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Informative

      So I would think if the case was worth trying or pressing charges, then the crime did happen.

      Prosecutors can be full of shit too. It was only recently that the Supreme Court ruled that if a prosecutor had evidence proving that the victim of their railroading was innocent, they had to turn it over to their defense. Not drop the case, just turn over the evidence.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    19. Re:There is actually by deraj123 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But you have to remember that a cop has to press the charges to be heard before the judge, and a prosecutor argue the case. So I would think if the case was worth trying or pressing charges, then the crime did happen.

      Really? REALLY?

      Well, if that's the case, why do we even have trials? Seems pretty pointless...

    20. Re:There is actually by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Saying what he posted during voir dire will keep him off any jury.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    21. Re:There is actually by Ice+Tiger · · Score: 1

      But you have to remember that possibly trials lead to people being found to be innocent of the crime they are accused of.

      --
      "Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
    22. Re:There is actually by chaboud · · Score: 1

      Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      When the police fail to properly preserve the rights of a defendant by violating due process, the fruits of that violation are unavailable to the state in the prosecution of that defendant. When a judge violates due process by being corrupt, the fruits of that corruption (read: incarceration) should be unavailable to the state as well.

      The state's penalty for allowing corruption within its ranks should necessarily be enormously high, strongly favoring the accused, because the state should be strongly compelled to operate constitutionally, ethically, legally, and morally.

      More than just reviewing the cases to determine which should be retried, each and every conviction by this judge should be overturned, and the end effect will be that some rather unpleasant persons get a break. On balance, the societal cost of correcting a mistake (letting these kids out) should always be significantly higher than the individual cost of making the mistake (sending decent kids to prison). This motivates our society to avoid these mistakes in the first place.

    23. Re:There is actually by radtea · · Score: 1

      A class action lawsuit being brought against the judges

      The class action ought to be broader than that, although sovereign immunity makes it tough.

      Anyone who knows anything about legal history knows that mixing private and public sector functions in this way creates a certainty of such kick-back schemes. The system has conflict of interest designed in, making it inevitable that someone will take advantage of it, people being what they demonstrably, empirically are.

      When you pay a private company to supply a public service to deal with a social problem, you create a pecuniary interest in having more of that social problem, or at least the appearance of it.

      For example, back in the days when the Poor Law was administered at the parish level in England there was a system of private coaches that was used to transport indigent people back to their home parish. This immediately resulted in a scam whereby poor people colluded with coachmen by declaring themselves to be indigent and from a distant parish, and then splitting the prescribed fee with the coaching company.

      These kinds of scams are incredibly common throughout history, and anyone creating policy for such government services ought to be aware of that, unless they are wilfully dedicated to remaining ignorant of any and all empirical facts that are relevant to doing their job.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    24. Re:There is actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incorrect. They are sealed, not wiped. All those hidden transgressions are still accessible by Uncle Sam, like when she tries to get a federal security clearance.

    25. Re:There is actually by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      The article said that in some cases, the penalties were harsher than the prosecutors wanted. For example for one teenager he got into a fight at school. The other kid got a black eye. The defendant wasn't a troublemaker and didn't previously have a record. The prosecutor wanted probation which is appropriate for a first time offender. So the teenager and the prosecutor agree to deal. The teen pleads guilty in exchange for probation. However, the judge overrules the prosecutor's request for probation and orders the teenager to be sent to a center. Now it comes out that the judge had a financial deal that gave him incentives to send every teenager to that center.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    26. Re:There is actually by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Don't you watch NCIS? Even if the records are expunged, McGee can just hit 6 keys to hack the DOJ firewall with a logic bomb and recover the deleted files with an inverse DNS C++ script trojan horse. Then you just use an NAT perl worm to get it back to you. Don't forget to encrypt the datastream and piggyback it on a VOIP signal, though, or they might notice!

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    27. Re:There is actually by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      But you have to remember that a cop has to press the charges to be heard before the judge, and a prosecutor argue the case. So I would think if the case was worth trying or pressing charges, then the crime did happen.

      I think you're mixing up with what you say to the attorneys to get out of jury duty with real life.

    28. Re:There is actually by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      During primaries lasty year, I had 2 votes: One in primaries and on in the jury box. And I consider my jury box vote so much more worthy than a primary vote.

      We saw a case where a guy was charged with a DUI. Defendant took stand and said he was going to a Sundance festival which they hold around here. He was stockpiling alcohol for the parties. He parked and started to drink, cause it was too late for pitching the tent. Cop playing rent-a-cop was watching over the festival. He claimed that he saw defendant driving erratic.

      Problem:
      1. radioed for help to an on-duty cop. aww shucks. no logs
      2. main cop said one thing in deposition. said something else in open court. lied.
      3. log books not filled out. shucks.
      4. timing on cops story didnt work out. there was an hour of unaccounted time. defendant explained what happened and made sense timewise and reasonwise.
      5. main cop was just smarmy on stand. there was stuff he was hiding and the defense attorney found it.

      Yeah, took us 5 minutes for a not guilty verdict. Took us longer to get the attorneys re-convened. However, considering the opinion in the jury room, we would have tried the cops for perjury. But thats not how our systems works :( Corrupted officials keep their jobs. hurray.

      --
    29. Re:There is actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got into a fight in high school circa 1981. The school bully was picking on skinny/nerdy me for some reason. I told him to shut up. He forcefully pushed me into the lockers. I came out swinging and landed a very lucky punch square to his nose.

      It bled like a fire hose.

      He went to the principals office. The English teacher bought me an ice cream from the cafeteria.

      What is wrong with kids fighting in high school?? It is going to happen.

      90 days in prison? Something went very wrong with that decision.

      Nathan

    30. Re:There is actually by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      I can't find any actual links on the subject, but it seems from a few other posters that satire only works against a public figure and this vice principal wasn't considered an applicable target for satire.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    31. Re:There is actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear anonymous cowpat, great quote, from the best political comedy ever but it is missing the word "tell" before parliment.

      For those who dont know the Tv show was Yes minister/Yes Primemininster.

    32. Re:There is actually by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      At least in the case of Hillary Transue there was no crime, satire is constitutionally protect free speech. The judge was obviously making up crimes so he could sentence more kids to jail.

      Judges don't file charges, nor do they make arrrests. It takes a pile of people working together to get someone in front of a judge. And judges don't get to make up any charges. However, maybe you are on to something. What if they were also bribing prosecutors to file "questionable" charges, knowing they'd get a conviction from the dirty judges?

    33. Re:There is actually by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      But you have to remember that a cop has to press the charges to be heard before the judge, and a prosecutor argue the case. So I would think if the case was worth trying or pressing charges, then the crime did happen.

      Ever have an on-duty cop come talk to you about a crime? I've had it happen a couple of times. First thing I learned is that you can recognize when an on-duty cop is lying: his lips are moving. Second thing I've figured out is that cops are horribly bad at figuring out who committed a crime, but they're all quite sure they're very good at it. This is, of course, why it's so easy for them to lie, cheat, fake evidence, or do whatever else they choose to do to get a conviction. They're sure they're right, so if a few fabrications here and there help them get the job done, it's all for the greater good, right?

      I'm sure there are honest cops out there, but they're probably back at HQ filing reports. You're unlikely to actually meet one on-duty. Most criminals I've met were more honest than most cops. And poorer liars when they weren't -- they probably don't get as much practice.

      Bad cops are corrupted by the desire for money. Good cops are corrupted, ironically, by the desire to do what they believe is for the greater good. But either way, they tend to be corrupt. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions about anyone based on what a cop's willing to testify about them. It's meaningless...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    34. Re:There is actually by lgw · · Score: 1

      But why should it ever be a crime to say bad things about someone? It absurd. A tort, sure, if it were libel (I believe the page self-identified as a joke though, so no libel). If the only harm was "hurt feelings", both criminal and civil actions are absurd. What have we come to?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    35. Re:There is actually by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      I wasn't getting into the argument of why, haha.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    36. Re:There is actually by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      The law actually is far more extreme as it applies to children than it is as it applies to adults.

      For example, a grown man molesting a child won't be forced to head to a 1930's style reprogramming center where inhuman nazi-esque reconditioning techniques are used to "cure" them. A child who molests another child will. (ethicaltreatment.org documents this well)

      We treat our children horribly. We fuck them by running up the debt, we fuck them by punishing them more than we punish adults, we fuck them by overreacting over 'warning signs' that they're school shooters, we fuck them by forcing discredited experimental treatments on them, we fuck them by allowing judges disproportionate powers to sentence them, as in this case.

      We're a nation of closet pedophiles, considering how much we love fucking our children.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    37. Re:There is actually by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      An AC says before if these marks are still on the records for the kids. Well why wouldn't they be? Just because the sentencing was wrong doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed.

      It's called a mistrial. You can bet that anyone who was convicted by this judge and has enough money to hire a lawyer is preparing their appeal right now. The ones with really good lawyers are going to get a lot of money for wrongful incarceration. Just because an injustice was done in the past doesn't mean you can't get a new trial in the future.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
  13. Dont worry by paulgrant · · Score: 1

    I hear judges don't do to well in prisons.

  14. Law? by archieaa · · Score: 1

    To paraphrase the movie Braveheart, The trouble with law, is that its practiced by lawyers.

  15. America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahh, the sweet sound of justice. Too bad it happened this late, after these two retards had been living "the American Dream" and doing it "the American way" for that long...

    1. Re:America by pyster · · Score: 0

      One thing china has right, you screw up like this and they put you right to sleep. Justice would be the public execution of any official who breaks the public trust. These people ruined the lives of others and in my opinion have forfeit their their own. One can only hope they are shanked in prison by someone who has elected themselves the karmic enforcer.

    2. Re:America by cluke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the "justice system" can't be trusted to correctly hand down minor sentences, why on earth do you think they would be able to adminster the death penalty appropriately?

    3. Re:America by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Precisely the point, well played!

      The death penalty is never justifiable, as long as it is applied by an imperfect legal system.

      That said, the case of the young lady is particularly bad, what happened to the much vaunted
      freedom of speech of US citizens?

  16. USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Most prisoners are in for minor drug offenses. When will people realize that THE MAJORITY of judges are corrupt / receiving 'kickbacks' from the corrupt system, in which they get paid more and are employed longer for the more people the lock up.This not only goes for judges but for everyone employed in corrections, including the police and prison guards, the prison industrial complex, etc.

    With the states, the federal government, running massive deficits w/ no end in sight, how long can we afford to wait?

    Legalize and regulate, no person should be a criminal for voluntarily putting a substance in his own body, no matter how harmful the substance is, so long as they don't put any other individuals at risk (eg, permit sale, possession, and use, but still prohibit driving under the influence of anything and giving these substances to minors). Anything short is anti-free-society.

    1. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Chemicalscum · · Score: 1

      It's the Amerikan Gulag

    2. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most prisoners are in for minor drug offenses. When will people realize that THE MAJORITY blah blah blah no longer paying attention [...]

      When will people realize that starting statements with the phrase "when will people realize" is one surefire way to get rational people to dismiss the rest of the statement as the product of a paranoid, whackjob mind (much akin to a mad scientist screaming about all the "fools" who tried to stop him, wondering when they'll realize he was right all along), regardless of how true and/or insightful it is?

    3. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Who gets sued by the parents of a team that ODs?

      While I agree with you on principle.. make every person responsible for their own actions.. that isn't how our society is any more. The lawyers run this country, do you think they would create laws that limit the lawsuits that can be created? If everyone took responsibility for their own actions, most lawyers would be out of jobs.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    4. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by TarnVeda · · Score: 0
      interesting statistics - where did you get them from? We do not take such uncorroborated statements as fact - especially politically motivated ones.

      ps: I agree with the sentiment

    5. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. That mirijuana and pyschedelics are illegal is especially appalling considering they are less addictive than a beer. We are not living in a free society when we have a big brother nanny state ordering our daily lives and with insane laws as such we live in fear even though we are doing nothing to harm anyone else. Psychedelics like mushrooms are not addictive at all truth to be told, and mirajuana not close to tobacco. These should be completely legalised, as the evidence of severe physical addiction, does not even exist. Cocaine and Heroine are quite dangerous and create physical dependancy, but instead of criminalisation we should focus on treatment programs and regulated sale to eliminate the black market, which propogates these items.

    6. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Who gets sued by the parents of a team that ODs?

      The coach, the physio and the club owner, not necessarily in that order.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:USA: 5% of worlds pop., 25% - worlds prisoners by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      It's true. U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations

      For references, from wikipedia: The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 (as of 2005).[16] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison.[9] The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.[6]

  17. They got off easy by hamburgler007 · · Score: 1

    Little over 7 years seems hardly enough considering the scope of their crimes.

    1. Re:They got off easy by Steauengeglase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you were a judge would you heavily sentence another judge? (Not that I know this is the case, there could be maximum sentencing guidelines at work here.)

    2. Re:They got off easy by hamburgler007 · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. I put this on the same level as politician receiving bribes to pass a piece of legislation. It is the willful corruption of a fundamental cornerstone of American government, and IMO should be given life. If I were a judge I would be pretty pissed that another judge was threatening the legitimacy of my job. While their might be some backlash, I don't think it would be on the level of an officer breaking the blue wall of silence.

    3. Re:They got off easy by Zerth · · Score: 1

      For a non-work related crime, not really. For accepting bribes to change how people were sentenced? I'd pile it on to the legal maximum, if any.

      A review board should be on a doctor taking bribes to prescribe someone an unneeded drug, or IA on a cop taking bribes to deliberately ticket somebody. It makes your profession look bad, so you should smack it down.

    4. Re:They got off easy by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      If you were a judge would you heavily sentence another judge? (Not that I know this is the case, there could be maximum sentencing guidelines at work here.)

      Hell yes, if he's guilty of a crime, he made my job ten times harder because the trust in judges in general is tainted. Unfortunately, I think the sentence length is a part of the plea bargain and the case will never see real prosecution.

    5. Re:They got off easy by lgw · · Score: 1

      The guilty judge overrode the sentence length of plea bargains for these kids. The same should certainly happen to him! Plea bargan for 87 months, accept his guilty plea, then have the judge change it to 87 years, plus castration (just for fun).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    6. Re:They got off easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep I would, and I'd make sure the prison's operators gave me a healthy kickback too.

    7. Re:They got off easy by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      Oh, that was a tidbit I wasn't aware of. In that case, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead! Sentence him to the max allowed after accepting his plea!

  18. Some things should not be run for profit by NoNeeeed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are some things in this world that should never be run by private companies for the purposes of making a profit.

    Prisons are one of them. The idea that people can make a profit by locking people up is repugnant. Much in the same way that mercenary forces are generally a bad idea. The last people you want are those that *want* more war because that way they make more money.

    The profit incentive is fine in most cases, and generally I'm pro the free market, but there are some things we don't want to be encouraging.

    Paul

    1. Re:Some things should not be run for profit by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately we've created both of those situations in the US. The Iraq war has/had hundreds of billions of dollars going to paid mercenaries. Blackwater (one of the mercenary companies) has recently had plans of expanding their business to INSIDE the united states.

      --
      AccountKiller
    2. Re:Some things should not be run for profit by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      mercenary forces are generally a bad idea. The last people you want are those that *want* more war because that way they make more money.

      It's time you read up on the Eisenhower quote about the military-industrial-congress complex. The revolving door between military service (where you spend military budgets), industry (where you profit from military budget) and politics (where you decide the military budget). Look at the life of Donald Rumsfeld, he's a perfect example of that.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    3. Re:Some things should not be run for profit by physicsphairy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, it is not just private prisons, state run prisons are subsidied based on their populations as well, and also charge inmates for their stay, as well as for stationary, envelopes, food, a few other things the inmates can have. I don't know how much that goes for, but if someone is greasing the fund it could be the same problem. And if traffic tickets are any indication even municipalities can be swayed by profit motives.

      Then of course there are those big juicy lawsuits which come through. Sometimes just by suing for a big enough number people 'legally extort' a nice settlement. And look how much we pay big name lawyers... is that how much justice costs?

      It would be nice in fact if the justice system could be entirely divorced from any personal transfer of money. Punitive damages should go to charity via some third party apparatus rather than being split between plaintiffs and lawyers. Positions such as warden in prisons and elsewhere should be constantly swapped to prevent the creation of any long term scams. And if governments 'make money' fining people for crimes, or locking them up, they should not be able to keep the excess, lest that create an incentive for them, but instead should have to return it to the taxpayers in general.

    4. Re:Some things should not be run for profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever hear of Haliburton...?

  19. Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by resistant · · Score: 1

    We desperately need a special police force and judicial system that has the power to arrest, try and jail or execute *only* public officials, with no power over ordinary citizens. Seeing a few hundred corrupt judges and prosecutors and police officers and government employees hanging from yardarms or rotting in prison will do wonders for shaping them up.

    --
    A truly excellent pizza parlor is a delight unto the heavens. Treasure the sauce and the toppings!
    1. Re:Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by Nexus7 · · Score: 2, Funny

      And of course, a special police force and judicial system to watch over this special police force and judicial system.

    2. Re:Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by mgiuca · · Score: 2, Funny

      Who will police the police?

      Police police police police!

      But who will police the police police?

      Police police police police police police!

    3. Re:Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... and Chuck Norris to watch over them.

      --
      FGD 135
    4. Re:Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by good+soldier+svejk · · Score: 1

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      --
      It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

      -James Baldwin
    5. Re:Need Special Police Force and Judiciary by dcollins · · Score: 1

      And of course, a special police force and judicial system to watch over this special police force and judicial system.

      And then have branch #1 watch over branch #3, in some kind of constant checks-and-balances loop. Who makes this stuff up?!

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  20. Nice by someone1234 · · Score: 1

    We are just one step from similar judges sending people to slave camps and another to a soylent green processing plant.

    --
    Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
  21. horrible yes...but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why is this a slashdot story?

    I'm from there and this is only the tip of the iceberg of corruption.... but why is this on slashdot?

  22. Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by wurble · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I will preface this by saying I don't know what charge they "convicted" the teenager of.

    1) Isn't satire completely protected under the first amendment, ESPECIALLY if it is explicitly stated that it is satire? The page she created had a disclaimer on it.

    2) The assistant principal is a public figure, and thus, under Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, can't even sue for emotional distress, let alone have someone convicted of a criminal offense.

    The sentence needs to be immediately overturned, the record expunged, and the family should have the right to sue at least the judge, if not the state.

    1. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by SkeezerDoodle · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. Once you are placed in the public eye, you open yourself up for satire. It comes with the territory. While it is fortunate that the records of these children will be "locked away" once they turn 18, those records are still there. They aren't wiped off the face of the Earth as some may think. It is a process of appealing to have the record expunged which may be costly (as nothing in the court system is ever free.) Furthermore, if one of these children is released prior to turning 18, they still have that mark on their record should they apply for a job. This is truly sad that justice is for sale...even when children are involved.

    2. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by EasyTarget · · Score: 1

      I will preface this by saying I don't know what charge they "convicted" the teenager of.

      It's given in the article; Harassment

      --
      "Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
    3. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by wurble · · Score: 1

      Ah, I just noticed that. Missed it on my first skim through the article.

      My statement remains valid. Under Hustler Magazine, Inc. vs Falwell, a public figure cannot sue for emotional damages. Harassment, a more serious charge, but stemming from the same core action, thus cannot be the resultant sentence for her, even if she hadn't put in the disclaimer. With the disclaimer, this even more blatantly is protected under free speech.

    4. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for taking the time out of your day to make complete rationalistic sense in this incresingly mind boggling CRAZY SHIT that is occuring today. Holy FS*K!

      1) Children (WRONGLY) sent to prison, and their adult life ruined by a permanent record (the expunged at 18 is bullshit), just for some money (assumed less than $100K)! (WTF #1)

      2) The entire congress passes a bill within 6 hours of it being written and only submitted to them in hardcopy form. They had not idea what they were voting on. (WTF #2)

      3) People are begging our current president for handouts such as a kitchen, bath, and even benefits as if he were our king! See this link. (WTF #3)

      4) ....the list goes on, but it only encompasses the past 6 months. I'm moving to Canada if shit keeps up like this.

    5. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      as much as I'm a fan of free speech, I'm not so sure we should be calling high school vice principles "public figures." I don't know the details of this particular case, but a student most certainly can harass a school official, and that is something that (IMO) should be illegal.

    6. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The family has always had the right to sue the judge and the state, that last bit of the First Amendment makes that perfectly clear.

      "...and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    7. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They would sue the state... the judge was within the Scope of Employment.

    8. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by IchNiSan · · Score: 1

      See ya, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

      Say hello to Stephen Baldwin for us when you get there!

    9. Re:Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell et al. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Web pages != harassment.

  23. Seriously: Execute them by wytcld · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Judicial corruption should get zero tolerance. For each of the 5000 kids sent to these private prisons for the profit of the judges, the judges should have an equal number of months to the kids' sentences removed from their lives. The punishment must fit the crime. Clearly, for the aggregate theft of life from children, these judges deserve death.

    What these judges have done, in terms of total injury to others, is far worse than a single murder. They have also undermined the faith of the public in the justice system. This faith can only be restored by reforms to the justice system so that punishments truly fit the harms caused by the crimes.

    Until we have a justice system in which men such as this face a sentence of death, we really don't have justice. Similarly, why is Bernie Madoff still walking around free? Steal $50 from a liquor store, go to jail. Steal $50 billion, and you're treated far better. And what about Dick Cheney? Our system is about punishing the poor and minorities in order to enforce a class system, not about really going after the psychopaths who are pushing our civilization over the edge.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Seriously: Execute them by db32 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you sure you really want the death penalty? You are advocating for a system where the government can execute its own citizens. How many trials are conducted almost soley in the court of public opinion these days through the use of the media? Do you understand how painfully easy it would be to start executing citizens in kangaroo courts while the populace cheers the delivery of justice due to biased media coverage? Not that I disagree with you on the core of the problem such as liquor store robber vs Maddoff type problems, but I think your solution is a little frightening.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    2. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Hodar · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your accessment on the judge (we can measurably determine how much time he sent 5000 teenagers to jail, we can measurabley access the fiscal kick-back), he should have his day in court. And if he is indeed found guilty, and we are relatively sure this will happen, he should be held accountable.

      For the reasons you gave - I agree that a capital punishment should be pushed for. How many lives is a man placed in a position of authority allowed to destroy? He took an oath of office, and he raped pretty much every principle of office he swore to uphold. There are consequences to actions, he knew this and chose to abuse his authority for personal gain - so his life should be forfeit.

      Same things with Bernie Madoff. Give him his day in court, treat him like any other robber or con-artist, scaling the magnitude of the crime to what a candy-bar thief would get. If stealing a $1.50 snickers means 1 day in jail, then $10 Billion should be a lifetime.

      What has Dick Cheney been charged with? Exactly, what did he do wrong? This seems more of a political stab at someone, rather than one based on an actual charge. If you can produce a charge, then give him his day in court like everyone else.

    3. Re:Seriously: Execute them by MythMoth · · Score: 1

      Similarly, why is Bernie Madoff still walking around free?

      Because he has not been tried and found guilty of a crime. He is charged with a crime, yes, but that is not the same thing, and he is judged not to be a flight risk, which is the pertinent factor in deciding whether he should be held on remand.

      Justice is not about punishing people who you think are probably guilty of a crime, or look guilty of a crime, or that someone told you was guilty of a crime. It's about checking the facts in a court of law and handing out the punishment if and only if the accused is proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty of the crime.

      Too many people wail about a lack of justice when they actually are complaining that the court is being properly impartial.

      --
      --- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
    4. Re:Seriously: Execute them by dcollins · · Score: 1

      I basically agree. If there's a death penalty, I think it should only be in cases like this of high governmental corruption. Good post.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    5. Re:Seriously: Execute them by dada21 · · Score: 1

      I made the same call: Judges Mark A Ciavarella, Jr and Michael T. Conahan should be legally put to death.

      Honestly, violating the oath of office is the only proper way to find someone guilty of treason. Common citizens don't take oaths of loyalty, public servants/slaves do. We need to hold ALL public servants to their oaths, by punishing them to the fullest extent of the law that they supposedly uphold and delegate authority over.

    6. Re:Seriously: Execute them by $1uck · · Score: 1

      THIS. Seriously, I'm almost 100% against the death penalty but I believe in exceptions for those who hold government offices and betray the trust of those they are supposed to serve. I'm not sure if these Judges were Politicians (elected) or appointed, but if they were appointed who ever did it is also culpable.

    7. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Make no mistake: we have two justice systems. One for "us", and one for "them".

      As much as I wish it weren't so, it always has been and always will be that way.

    8. Re:Seriously: Execute them by radtea · · Score: 1

      The punishment must fit the crime. Clearly, for the aggregate theft of life from children, these judges deserve death.

      Other than your deep and deranged feelings, can you articulate why you think that killing these people would constitute "justice"? Or what dimensions you are measuring "fit" along such that somehow locking innocent kids up "fits" with being killed?

      Just to get one thing out of the way, killing people does not reduce the crime rate. For example, North Dakota has never had the death penalty and has one of the lowest murder rates in the US, whereas Texas has the death penalty and kills people pretty regularly, and has one of the highest murder rates in the US.

      Anyone with a shred of humanity would look at this and say, "Obviously we need to figure out how to make Texas more like North Dakota in some non-facetious way." But I see no end of people who seem to think that it means Texas isn't killing enough people, although they are never able to explain why this will help other than to mutter violently that murderers, corrupt judges, or whatever "deserve" to die.

      No one has ever been able to explain to me what "deserve" means, other than "I really strongly feel it should be so."

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    9. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Spatial · · Score: 1

      Judicial corruption should get zero tolerance. For each of the 5000 kids sent to these private prisons for the profit of the judges, the judges should have an equal number of months to the kids' sentences removed from their lives. The punishment must fit the crime. Clearly, for the aggregate theft of life from children, these judges deserve death.

      Your judgement is warped by anger. They didn't kill anyone, so if the punishment is to fit and be mathematically determined as you said, they should be imprisoned for X years. Killing them doesn't enter the equation.

      If you could actually change the system so that punishments existed or were effective in those situations, why not change it for the better without killing people? The bloodshed is unnecessary, imprisoning them for some years and forcibly ending their career would be enough. That's devastating, prevents further damage, and serves as sufficient deterrant also. That's justice.

    10. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      The death penalty should only be used in cases in which a public servant (who makes an oath swearing to uphold) destroys plunders the people.

      If they're caught, fine. Have a real public trial. If found guilty, execution. Considering how many thousands of lives a public servant can affect, the crime would scale properly.

      And he said nothing about death penalty applying to citizens. I dont think it should, or at least not ones that arent public servants.

      --
    11. Re:Seriously: Execute them by db32 · · Score: 1

      Ok...let me give you a fun scenario. First we start with a President and his supporters with a quote of "No I don't think atheists should be considered as citizens..." -- George H.W. Bush.

      Now...let us throw in a few religiously charged cases like prayer in school, intelligent design, and so on.

      Now...keep in mind there is a large section of the populace that supports this type of fundamentalist religion and continues to elect public officials to that end. So some public servant decides to rule against them. Now, what would happen if they finally get enough power to declare that as oppression against their religion and undermining society and yada yada yada...

      It isn't like there hasn't been loads of historical examples of people getting put to death for disagreeing with the ruling religion.

      That is only even touching one tiny aspect. What about a judge that rules against warrantless wiretapping or some of the other terrorist hunt things? He is guilty of endagering the public and aiding the enemy!

      Then we have countless examples of people that have already been put to death because of an overzealous/corrupt prosecutor and/or police force. What about all of the people that were pardoned when later evidence showed that they were innocent?

      I'm not against life imprisonment because it at least offers the chance that new evidence could undo false convictions or that the political winds could change and political prisoners could be released.

      China has even gone so far as to build mobile execution chambers. You can talk about public trials until the cows come home, it only convinces me you haven't been paying attention to what kind of record the public actually has at accomplishing anything in a sane fashion.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    12. Re:Seriously: Execute them by brizzadizza · · Score: 1

      Why is he not deemed a flight risk? He has enough money to buy off everyone between him and safe haven. Its a class argument that suggests Madoff will honorably stand trial while a lower class criminal will just run away.

      The sickening fact is what Madoff did is probably not illegal right now. He was operating a black box investment fund. No one knows what was going on inside his scheme, and if the prosecution can't prove he was running a Ponzi scheme, Madoff is under no obligation to incriminate himself.

    13. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1

      I agree. Also should be applied to police who abuse their authority, imo.

      If we can't trust our judicial system, the entire belief in this being a country of laws breaks down. As that goes, nothing else can be trusted.

      --

      --
      $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    14. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Madoff has not been convicted of a crime, so he is not incarcerated. If he were deemed a danger to himself or the community, he would be in jail pending trial. Since he is not, he is out on bail. However, he is not just walking around free. He is on house arrest, which means he is not free to do as he pleases. Once he is convicted and not in jail, then you can bitch all you want.

      dom

    15. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Talk about a load of hogwash.

      The news isnt some made-up "I hate your religion because Bush made me do it". It's corruption at its plainest. And this corruption was a "treatment center" paying for convictions and assignment at said area.

      It has nothing to do with Bush, Atheists, religion, or Chinese death carts.

      Judges and other governmental figures make a public oath that usually affirms to uphold the state or national constitution. Accidental violation is one thing, and possibly overlooked. However, when one uses State power to make money by harming, in this case, thousands, would indicate that there is an active treason going on. All we need now are 2 witnesses or confession in open court, according to the US Constitution.

      The answer to being found guilty of treason in a federal court of law is death.

      --
    16. Re:Seriously: Execute them by db32 · · Score: 1

      I don't know why you think anything I said had anything to do with the case being discussed. My point is that there are a huge number of ways that have been repeatedly employed through history to justify a government killing it's citizens. This is the type of case used to raise the rally cry to get otherwise really bad ideas through, then they are applied to different cases. This is the same exact mentality that has convinced people to cheer the government on as they take away civil liberties because we need to be protected from terrorists. Shall we talk about how fine of a job we have been doing upholding the US Constitution as of late without warping and twisting it to meet rather disturbing agendas?

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    17. Re:Seriously: Execute them by MythMoth · · Score: 1

      {quote}Why is he not deemed a flight risk?{quote}

      Consult the court documents if you actually care. Since he's not yet fled, shows no signs of fleeing, and is currently under house arrest it seems to have been a reasonable decision.

      Get back to me when you can cite the court documents rather than angrily telling me how unjust it is without any supporting evidence. I have more respect for courts than you do.

      --
      --- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
    18. Re:Seriously: Execute them by k-macjapan · · Score: 1

      I agree with your month for a month plan. But would add that they should also be tried for any injustices that the children suffered when they were imprisoned. ie: child was assaulted by another inmate judge is charged with assault, child was raped, child was murdered, child commits suicide...

    19. Re:Seriously: Execute them by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      Throw executions around like candy and they'll be turned against you.

      What you are proposing is a thousand times worse than what they did and opens up the bag of human barbarism that we have so long fought to close.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
  24. Just in case no one else has done this ... by DikSeaCup · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Non-NYTimes link:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008739323_judges13.html

    In case you hate being asked to log in to read an article.

  25. Politically correct name? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    commercially operated juvenile detention center

    A Mall?

  26. Now a new motion picture! by gardyloo · · Score: 1

    Starring Adam Sandler

  27. Why? by Dripdry · · Score: 1

    My first thought (maybe not my best one) in this case is "Why?"

    Why would the judge get kickbacks for jailing juveniles (or others)? Where is the money to be made by the detention center?
    Is this obvious evidence of a system of what amounts to forced slave labor?

    If that is the case, then this whole "rights erosion/surveillance state" gets scarier by the minute. If you can be jailed by a corrupt (kick-back $)system that can deem almost anything a crime and which is watching many actions you take outside your home and online suddenly the system can arbitrarily harvest enough (slave) labor to do what it wants. Dystopian corporate future, anyone?

    I know it's just one judge, but how many more of them are there? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee, but this is a little scary.

    Am I missing something?

    --
    -
    1. Re:Why? by Hodar · · Score: 1

      There is no slave labor - that is illegal (unfortunately), the inmates are not forced to do anything but serve their time.

      The state pays $x/inmate that is sentenced to prison. This cost includes the cost of the prison, food, medical care, guards and administrative costs. If a commercial interest comes forward and says that they can provide a facility that meets state requirements with regard to living space, food, access to medical care and guards - but can do it for some cost less than what the state pays for a state owned and managed institution, then the state can opt to send inmates to the commercial entity. Given the established effectiveness of a commercial entity compared to a state managed entity - it's not uncommon to find commercial enterprises that can run a profit, and provide better care than the state.

      That said, the commercial entity found it in their fiscal best interests to pay the judges over $2.6 Million to send them juveniles (innocent or guilty .... the pay is the same) from their court dockets. So, how many kids who committed very minor crimes, or committed no crime at all - were sent to prision so the judges could make an extra $2.6 Million?

      I think a judge should spend the rest of his life in jail for this atrocity; and everything he owns should be confiscated and sold, with the proceeds given to the victims of his corrupton. I would personally jump at the opportuntiy to spend 17 months in jail for a $2.6 Million payoff. I could comfortably retire on $2.6 Million! Consider, just living off the 7% interest rate would be a cool $182,000 a year for life - without ever touching the principle. Heck yeah! Where do I sign up? Throw me in the slammer for 18 months, say nasty things about my mommy, make me watch cable TV and lift weights. That would be the easiest money I've ever made!!

    2. Re:Why? by espiesp · · Score: 1

      The parents are liable for expenses related to the detention of the minors. So the for-profit commercial detention center gets money for everybody they hold. It's pretty clear here.

    3. Re:Why? by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing the privately-run detention centre gets revenue from the government in order to run the facility. Take away the inmates and no more revenue. So it's in their commercial interests to have inmates.

      No conspiracy / slave labour theories -- OR SO I AM GUESSING.

    4. Re:Why? by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Where is the money to be made by the detention center?

      Fat state contracts.
      They get X dollars for every person/day of incarceration.
      Being a business, their goal is to have all their rooms occupied at all times, in order to increase shareholder value.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    5. Re:Why? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Why would the judge get kickbacks for jailing juveniles (or others)?

      Because apparently in PA, these prisons have the right to bill the family for the cost of imprisonment, according to this AC.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck yeah! Where do I sign up? Throw me in the slammer for 18 months, say nasty things about my mommy, make me watch cable TV and lift weights. That would be the easiest money I've ever made!!

      On the downside you probably would not find "But I poop from there" funny after 18 months of "Not right now you don't!"

    7. Re:Why? by hattig · · Score: 1

      Um, have you seen interest rates recently?

      If you are under 35, then you can uncomfortably retire on $2.6 million. I think to comfortably retire, you need $5m. Unless you want to live in some outback hick town, or are happy to still have to worry about money. Never mind monetary devaluation, when the government prints more money to fix its problems.

      I wouldn't say no to it however. A good means to bring retirement forward to before 50, or to take a year off work every 3 years, or to work on what you really enjoy doing. Also you'll have decent cars and a decent house, no mortgage (and this is why you can't live off of interest on the remaining money, the things you buy immediately reduce your cash a lot).

  28. Re:Think of the children by Metapsyborg · · Score: 1

    The judges should be locked up for at least 20 years. When an individual picks up the mantel of public protector the laws that govern them should be much harsher than for normal citizens; they are given authority over us "normal" people and should be punished in the harshest manner if they abuse that trust. The same goes for pigs, soldiers, etc.

    --
    (\(\
    (^.^) INFECTED
    (")")
  29. above the law by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    judges go to prison

    You're so naive. It's cute!

    The poor judge will have to spend time at home.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  30. Why Did It Take So Long? by yakmans_dad · · Score: 1

    This had been going on for YEARS! Did nobody notice that 2 Judge Roy Beans had been putting kids in jail for trivialities? Did these bozos just sit on their kickbacks, saving them up for their retirement?

  31. Re:worst scum: how about Protecting the innocent? by bubbaD · · Score: 1

    It would be better for all of us if you were motivated to proactively protect the innocent. Making an example of the judge won't help Hillary now.
    I mean, apparently it was people who thought "we need to bring scumbag kids like Hillary to justice!" which brought kids like her before the judge in the first place... I don't see more of the same sentiment as being very helpful

  32. Anybody remember the First Ammendment? by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    If satire and parody constitute harassment, shouldn't the entire cast and crew of Saturday Night Live be in jail now? Those guys even harass the President!

    Note to self: If you're going to make fun of someone on MySpace, do it under an alias. Like "Bill Gates" for instance.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  33. This seems a little light for the judges by das3cr · · Score: 1

    They should have to serve 2 days for every single day of confinement they sentenced their victims to.

    And one day for each dollar they gained from it.

    I wonder if the people they sent to jail will have some sort of recourse available to them.

    --
    Hurricane Island Outward Bound
    OB
  34. This isn't just "juvi" by mlwmohawk · · Score: 5, Informative

    This sort of thing happens all the time. I did a technology contract for "Servo-lift Eastern" who is a big vendor for the prison system.

    Privately run prisons are a big business in the U.S.A. Why do you think we imprison more of our population than any other western country? Because the good 'ol boys make money in jailing poor people who can't defend themselves.

    Hey, I understand politics. I don't expect human beings to be pillars of integrity, everyone is corrupt on some level. However, if you are willing to knowingly cause material harm to another human being for money, you need to die.

    1. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Privately run prisons are a big business in the U.S.A. Why do you think we imprison more of our population than any other western country? Because the good 'ol boys make money in jailing poor people who can't defend themselves.

      Prison Labor is big business

      As one of the snippets from Google's results says:
      "Prison labor is every US Corporation's dream: cheap labor, no sick leave, no time off, no holidays and employees that can be easily replaced ..."

      "Made In The USA" isn't always what its cracked up to be.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Privately run prisons are a big business in the U.S.A. Why do you think we imprison more of our population than any other western country?

      That and the Selective War on Harmless Drug Users.

    3. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      That and the Selective War on Harmless Drug Users.

      Cause and effect.

    4. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by houghi · · Score: 1

      Why do you think we imprison more of our population than any other western country?

      If that would be true, it would be good news. Unfortunatly it is much, much worse. 25% of all prisoners worldwide. Much more then China that has more people.

      There is a link to http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=allp">a NY Times article in there as well. 751 per 100.000 or 1.000 per 100.000 when only calculating adults. That is 1% of the population. UK is 151, Germany is 88.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      "However, if you are willing to knowingly cause material harm to another human being for money, you need to die."

      If I am willing to cause material harm to those judges, but I will do it for free, where does that put me?

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    6. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      Hey, I understand politics. I don't expect human beings to be pillars of integrity, everyone is corrupt on some level. However, if you are willing to knowingly cause material harm to another human being for money, you need to die.

      I don't know that they need to die, but IMO, the punishment for abuse of the public trust by somebody like a judge needs to have a damned harsh punishment. I'd say public stocks for shaming and humiliation. But, the public can do whatever they want to the judges to harass them while on display. Like gang rape. And beating. And, for this sentencing stuff, I'd say that the minimum time served needs to be *higher* than the total time of all the convictions the judges made. Note, that's not a starting point -- I'm talking legal minimum would be something like 2x. I'd expect something more like 10x, and eligibility for parole not before ~5x.

      I don't like harsh punishments in general, but when somebody takes on an extr authority, they take on an extra responsibility. Cops, judges, legislators, etc.

    7. Re:This isn't just "juvi" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you think we imprison more of our population than any other western country?

      You don't need to qualify that statement by tossing in adjectives like 'western'. The US locks up more people than any other nation in the world whether you measure by total people incarcerated or on a per capita basis. It is a rather ironic statistic for the land of the free.

  35. No allegations? by pluther · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not even an allegation of abuse?

    That seems awfully unlikely. Even if none at all were going on, there are some kids who would claim it was, if for no better reason than to fuck with the administrators, or even just to get attention.

    And the percentage of kids who would make something like that up is probably higher among those that end up getting sent to a juvenile detention facility than among the general populace.

    To go five years without even a single accusation (even if it's proven false) makes me think that complaints are simply ignored and no records kept.

    --
    If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    1. Re:No allegations? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      No allegation of abuse that resulted in any lawsuit. Of course kids probably still make up allegations that turn out to be BS in individual facilities, but none that have resulted in a lawsuit (an extraordinary thing in an age of ambulance chasing).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:No allegations? by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      If you don't teach them to read, write, or use a telephone, they can't really complain effectively, can they? And anything they say on visiting day is monitored by Big Brother. No problem.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
  36. Close to home... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, never thought Id read the local news on /.

      "True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants."

    Actually, Ive been to this facility, and it is rather nice. They should really be sent to Guantanamo or Auschwitz (sic?). These two are really pieces of crap, so are all the sleazy lawyers who were helping them out, to date I think there are 9 or 10 involved.

  37. That isn't a kickback by zogger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is *slavery* for profit, human trafficking.

  38. Poetic Justice? by jjohnson · · Score: 1

    rue poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

    That's not poetic justice. Putting them in a juvie facility would be letting them off easy. Judicial corruption should get the supermax treatment.

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  39. "outsourced" prisons are common by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Same reason you'd outsource anything else - constrain costs and not be stuck with inventory. These are usually for non-violent, or low-violence crimes.

    In some states like CA and TX, prison spending is higher than school spending. One percent of the US population in the justice system at any time.

    1. Re:"outsourced" prisons are common by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same reason you'd outsource anything else - constrain costs and not be stuck with inventory.

      I thought the usual reason was to shift away responsibility, benefit your friends and/or receive kickbacks.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  40. Uuummmm.... by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

    ...when are those responsible for supplying the bribes going to be punished. I suspect there should be at least a dozen people who knew of said scheme, and did nothing to stop it, and another dozen who instigated and profited from it directly. Ship them some KY, they're gonna need it.

  41. I hope Hillary sues. by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    file an appeal, and a civil suit against the state. This is an unacceptable situation.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  42. not enough by sribe · · Score: 1

    True poetic justice would be for these corrupt, callous judges to serve their sentences in the same kind of environment to which they were happy to dispatch juvenile defendants.

    No, true justice would be the normal minimum-security adult prison, but for life, no possibility of parole. This is such a foul perversion of the system that anything less than a life sentence would be offensive. (Obviously I'd settle for 6 months per kid, to be served consecutively, as it would have the same effect.)

    1. Re:not enough by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I'd settle for a week per kid.

      52 kids/year
      520 kids/10 years
      5200 kids/100 years
      and minus a few.

      Honestly, I'd drain them and their related family of all ill-gotten gains, drain every penny from them, and make them live on subsistence welfare and lead a poor life. May they never taste the fruits of success for the rest of their life.

      --
  43. What about the vice principal? by pluther · · Score: 1

    I haven't seen any mention of the vice principal who brought the charges in the first place.

    True, he was just a fuckhead, not a corrupt criminally greedy fuckhead, but still, what kind of person presses criminal charges against someone for making fun of them on myspace? Is this guy still employed by the school? And, if so, why?

    --
    If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    1. Re:What about the vice principal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were her family, I'd sue the FUCK out of the vice principle. Even if I didn't win, I wouldn't rest until he'd lost EVERYTHING, and wound up living in a cardboard box under a bridge somewhere. Then I'd find him, beat him to within an inch of his life, and then burn down his box.

      Sorry, I'm a vindictive person

  44. Not an annoyance any more thanks to... by bornagainpenguin · · Score: 1

    ..the magic of "Bugmenot.com" which via an extension in Firefox allows me to go right in many many more sites than just the NY Times.

    --bornagainpenguin

    --
    Have a Virgin Mobile USA smartphone? Give VMRoms.com a try!
    1. Re:Not an annoyance any more thanks to... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Now the only annoyance is the people that don't use the subject line for subjects, and instead start the body of their posts there.

  45. typical of north alabama... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    aka: pennsylvania between pittsburgh & philly;-)

  46. We shouldn't need commercial prisons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the state-run prisons are overcrowding, solve the problem, don't just throw more resources at it.

    my suggestions:
    1. wtf is up with life w/o parol? this should be death.
    2. death should be delivered swiftly and cheaply...bullets are very cheap...firing squad.
    3. 1st degree murder = death
    4. those with death sentences get 1 year to appeal to a deity, no appeals to court.
    5. after conviction of 3 violent crimes (mame, torture, kill, non-statutory rape, child molestation), sentence is death.

    That should alleviate prison populations a great deal and save tax-payers a ton of money. If prisons are full of white-collar criminals, then who's running the country?

    1. Re:We shouldn't need commercial prisons by SABME · · Score: 1

      > If prisons are full of white-collar criminals, then who's running the country?

      The white-collar criminals who are able to exonerate themselves and their friends?

  47. Freedom Period! by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    How long will it take to make absolute our right to free speech. In this case a local judge, now found to be a crook, has sentenced a young person for the high crime of satire. Satire is not harassment. The only way to stop these violations of free speech is to stop these cases well before they appear in court. In other words no case involving speech should ever be allowed in a court of law.

    1. Re: Freedom Period! by Hodar · · Score: 1

      "Satire is not harassment"

      Tell that to your boss when you make a 'satire cartoon' of him available on the internet. I'm almost certain he'll consider 'your' rights as he exercises 'his' rights to re-evaluate your employment.

      A doubt a High School Principle can be considered a 'public figure' as he is not a celebrity, he does not hold press conferences, appear as a public spokesman, present himself as a public figure, nor is he employing any public relations agencies. He's merely filling a required managment position. He is in a position of authority, over a group of immature children/teenagers.

      Now, as to the punishment; that was absolutely out of bounds. A stern talking to, maybe a day or two detention and an apology were all that was warranted, IMHO. If the child refused to apologize, I can grant that the Principle would be within his rights to tell the student that he is not welcome to return, and must go elsewhere to further his educational goals. This would set the tone that the school has rules, and other students would learn a lesson vicariously. Learn to respect those in positions of authority while you are in school; and when you join the workforce the chances are that you'll not be fired for talking back to a supervisor. (You wouldn't believe the attitudes we see coming into the workforce!)

    2. Re: Freedom Period! by jolson74 · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy. Do you think that in addition to being fired that a person should also be convicted of harassment and sentenced to jail time if they create a satirical cartoon of their boss? Probably not. But that is basically what happened to this girl. Had she been simply been expelled (which while a bit harsh, wouldn't be an entirely unexpected outcome), then your comparison to being fired would be (more) accurate.

    3. Re: Freedom Period! by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Firing you for making fun of your boss is not the same as putting you in jail for making fun of your boss. That is the critical difference between this case and your scenario. The kid was essentially jailed for making fun of her boss (the Vice Principal is effectively her "boss" while she's in school).

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  48. anonymous coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    tax fraud the 2.6 mil is already gone
    every case they have ever touched should be thrown out completly they had the right to an impartial judge and jury this was not provided hence mistrial the kids should be off now(retrial would be double jeopardy) but most of them already served there sentence all those sentences should be accumulated and given to these two and of course they should be disbarred and have there pensions taken

    ianal but isn't that how it's supposed to fall i guess the accumulated sentences being dumped on them might be a bit eye for an eye this doesn't look legaly complicated at all other than the legal system might not like the implications?

  49. Re:Bad science fiction movie... by just+fiddling+around · · Score: 1

    Something with Christopher Lambert in it, maybe?

    --
    You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
  50. Checks, Balances and Juvenile Court Administration by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    The administration of juvenile courts, including probation and detention facilities, is commonly run by juvenile court judges. This is different from the way most everything else is run in the USA. In most other scenarios, the legislature decides what the show is, the executive runs the show, and the judges resolve differences of opinion.

    In the juvenile courts, judges get a budget and very little oversight. They're not just judging--they are contracting (sometimes on a big scale). This presents a fertile ground for corruption.

    From what I've read, it looks like this corrupt judge was outrageous for years and that still a snitch was necessary to secure his prosecution. This doesn't bode well for catching other bad judges.

    Why not separate judges from the contracting process?

  51. Betrayal of trust by RatPh!nk · · Score: 1

    This person needs to be jailed, fired, drawn and quartered, and disbarred. This is 7th level of hell kind of betrayal of public trust. Yet another reason the for profit prison industry is a bad idea. IMO.

    --
    Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
    1. Re:Betrayal of trust by icepick72 · · Score: 1

      Hey RatPhink there you are! ..Did you just get out of juvy?

  52. Go after the detention center management and owner by The+Second+Horseman · · Score: 1

    They haven't done that yet, as far as I know. Hope they nail them - they're just as bad as the judges. This is what allowing incarceration to generate a profit brings to the criminal justice system.

  53. Wouldn't want to be them inside by mbone · · Score: 1

    From my (limited) understanding, people like this tend not to do well inside. They are too likely to meet with prior acquaintances who bear grudges.

  54. Local history of Judge Mark A. Ciavarella Jr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the current story is interesting, it's even more interesting to read the history leading up to it, including this story detailing his earlier resignation and the responses of locals.

  55. For profit run criminal justice by wfstanle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's just a bad idea to have any for profit company running criminal justice operations such as prisons. I remember a story about one of the companies running many Texas prisons. The law forbids them from lobbying about laws increasing the penalties for crimes or making new criminal laws. Although they were prohibited from outright lobbying they were found to be using "back door" means to influence the state legislature. Some of the things they were doing is to form "community organizations" which they then funded heavily.

    The profit motive in criminal justice should just be eliminated. Criminal justice should be run entirely by the state. We should still have prisons just stop having private companies operate them.

    1. Re:For profit run criminal justice by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 1

      The profit motive in criminal justice should just be eliminated. Criminal justice should be run entirely by the state. We should still have prisons just stop having private companies operate them.

      +1000

      I've been totally against privatizing the prison system ever since it started gaining acceptance over 25 years ago for those very reasons. Anyone with any sense should have been able to predict that there would be no way to prevent this industry from influencing the laws capable of taking all your freedoms away, and that the situation should be avoided at all costs. Pretty much all my worst fears about it have come true.

      I keep hoping that one of these fucking years I might actually be able to use the phrase "Only in America" in a good context again.

  56. Shocking by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

    Since when is it illegal to parody? I am sure its rude of course. But this is ridiculous and downright frightening to throw someone in jail for something they said. Reading that headline was a shocking moment. This is not a free society and the first amendment has been trampled with we have things such as this. have we lost all sanity?

  57. Libel Lawsuit vs. Criminal Case by billstewart · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The issue of whether somebody is a "public figure" affects libel lawsuits - if the principal were suing her, it might have some relevance.

    This is a criminal case - the principal was alleging "harassment" or some similarly bogus charge.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Libel Lawsuit vs. Criminal Case by I'm+not+really+here · · Score: 1

      Harassment is not a crime, it is a tort, so something doesn't seem quite right with the summary... but this is slashdot - who'm I kidding?

      --
      Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
    2. Re:Libel Lawsuit vs. Criminal Case by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Not only that, the point of this entire thing is that the judge was involved in a kick back scheme in which he collected money for sending juveniles to a privately run detention facility.

  58. Juveniles Right to Counsel by chicago_scott · · Score: 1

    One of the many interesting things from this article is this paragrpah:

    "The United States Supreme Court ruled in 1967 that children have a constitutional right to counsel. But in Pennsylvania, as in at least 20 other states, children can waive counsel, and about half of the children that Judge Ciavarella sentenced had chosen to do so. Only Illinois, New Mexico and North Carolina require juveniles to have representation when they appear before judges."

    I'm surprised there was even an argument about juveniles having the right to legal representation and that the argument wasn't resolved by the Supreme Court until 1967.

    You can almost guess how the prosecutors and/or judges got these kids to waive their right to an attorney: "If you get a lawyer it will look like you're guilty to the judge and that you have something to hide. So you'd be better off waiving your right to counsel."

  59. Surround them with naughty 17 year old girls? by Biff+Stu · · Score: 1

    Isn't this supposed to be a punishment?

  60. Re:worst scum: how about Protecting the innocent? by sexybomber · · Score: 1

    It would be better for all of us if you were motivated to proactively protect the innocent.

    Oh, don't you worry, I am. My goal is to have DAs (and judges with this type of attitude) shit themselves when they see my name listed as defense counsel.

    However, when proactive protection of the innocent fails, crucifying judges like these is the next best thing.

    (And yes, I do think they should be, literally, crucified. Saltire style. In front of Independence Hall. On national television.)

  61. Lots to see here by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    I smell a movie - where's Michael Mooore ?

    --
    Nullius in verba
  62. Social institutions or commercial ones? by Rudisaurus · · Score: 1

    I think any proposal to farm out a social enterprise to private interests is a very bad idea because the motives which create the impetus for the social structure are then changed -- and not for the better!

    The justice system, the military, emergency services (fire, police), primary education, and the demonstrably even the medical system are all examples of structures which have been established in society for the mutual benefit of all. Most of these have been maintained in the public sector (would you really like to see a privatized police force in your locality?) because we all benefit from being able to grow up, live in peace, and raise our children -- hopefully without having to stress over whether we're going to be able to pay for them if/when disaster strikes.

    When such institutions are privatized and commercialized and the profit motive takes over, suddenly the benefits to society and its individual members are no longer the overriding concern and the primary motive for providing the service. I'm not talking about the motivation of the individual service provider here; I'm talking about the motives which drive the people who direct, manage, and run the institution.

    And when the bottom line becomes all-important, that's when an institution becomes callous and uncaring about the individuals who are dependent on the service that it provides and that's when the door of opportunity is kicked open for corrupt practices such as the ones we're reading about here.

    (Mods: I'm really just posting here to reverse a mod accident, so please don't slam me too badly.)

    --
    licet differant, aequabitur
  63. I know it doesn't matter... by allaunjsilverfox2 · · Score: 1

    I'm not trying to be emo here, but I'd like to share a point of view. I commited some serious crimes, nothing as light as parody. BUT the Juvenile Correction Facilities I was sentenced to were no better then unregulated pow camps. I'd go to bed listening the screams of my fellows, Some deserved the tackle, others were merely pissed off and ended up pissing off the "counselor". And fyi, you don't need anything more then a high school degree to become a counselor, you take a few classes and your done. Sure, you can try to report abuses, but you run the risk of retaliation. My first visit to the "control room" still haunts me to this day. Getting your head slammed repeatedly into a cement floor with a wax finish isn't something your easily forget. The tiles probally still have my sweat stains, it took about a hour to subdue me. Roughly 5 guys, I was pretty messed up at that time. I'm not sure if this is the exception rather then the rule. I was at a nice facility before that, Less restricted. But I met others where chemical control was distributed because you refused to call someone sir. Coming out of that, i was completely messed up. It's taken years for me to recover, I'm still haunted by nightmares occasionally. So, next time you assume its all join a circle and share your feelings, consider the alternative.

    --
    Restore the madness of youth's lechery
  64. There is slave labor, actually. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thirteenth amendment says:

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    People seem to forget that one of the big excuses for slavery throughout history has been that the slaves were criminals, sentenced to slavery for their crimes. Some of the time, it was even true. Mostly it was just a lie, unless you consider being captured by a raiding party to be a crime. So, after the thirteenth amendment, a lot of slave-labor dependent plantations re-opened as prison work camps, using former slaves sometimes arrested legitimately, but mostly not. Naturally all sorts of new laws were enacted effectively criminalizing being black in the south.

    Prison chain gangs, although supposedly done away with in the 1950s, still exist in the US today, although generally only under mental cases like the megalomaniacal Sheriff Joe Arpaio who uses the disgustingly sadistic attitude many in the US have towards prisoners to keep getting elected. Supposedly, his chain gangs are voluntary, but of course, those who volunteer get special treatment. Since the standards of treatment are generally considered to be inhumane in his prison, that means that they get to choose between inhumane treatment or chain gang labor. Aside from chain gangs, in prisons overall, there is plenty of factory and service work being sold. The prisoners do get paid, but usually at very low rates, in some cases, as low as 40 cents an hour. In some cases it's voluntary (of course, in some prisons, you need the money to buy extra food to meet basic nutritional requirements), in others it is forced. They don't actually have whipping posts anymore that I'm aware of. Instead they just use standard prison punishments for misbehavior: loss of privileges, solitary confinement, extra time added to sentence, etc. As an example, rapper DMX is currently in the jail of the aforementioned Joe Arpaio and is currently in solitary confinement and on a diet of bread and water after a "verbal altercation" with guards after he refused to report for work. Now, whatever you may think of him as a person, and whatever excuses they can come up with that his punishment is for a "verbal altercation" rather than for refusing to work, I think it's pretty clear that the choices are work or be punished. The severity of the punishment in that case depends a bit on how long it lasts. Bread and water for a short time isn't a problem, if it lasts for months it will take years off your life as the body digests its own organs for nutrients.

    So, in conclusion, there is officially sanctioned slave labor in the United States. It's also growing as an industry. Whether kickbacks like the ones in this case are the cause of the huge growth of the US prison population is unknown, but it is a possibility. Whether or not it's an ethical problem is a certainty.

  65. Re:worst scum: how about Protecting the innocent? by roguetrick · · Score: 1

    Interesting angel, if a small bit sappy.

    --
    -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
  66. Re:worst scum: how about Protecting the innocent? by roguetrick · · Score: 1

    *angle, keerist.

    --
    -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
  67. You're falling for Perot and Picken's line... by jeko · · Score: 1

    "It is the sole duty of the operators of a commercial prison to maximize revenue for the shareholders."

    No, no it's not. I was around back in the 70's and 80's when Ross Perot, T. Boone Pickens and Carl Icahn started spouting this crap, and they go laughed out of the room at first. Even Wharton business professors gave interviews saying those corporate raiders were out of their mind with that argument.

    Pick up any macroeconomics textbook. The purpose of business is the efficient distribution of goods and services throughout society. It is in pursuit of that goal that private profit is justified.

    Look at any corporate charter filed with the state. In each one, the explicit promise is made that if ou grant us the legal fiction of personhood, shield us from liability and offer us tax considerations, then we will benefit the people of this state.

    Think about that. Why would We the People ever grant a corporate charter if the stated goal was "To have no other obligations other than making our owners rich?" Why would we agree to shield the owners from liability? Why would we grant that deal the legal fiction of personhood? Why would we agree to tax the owners at a lower rate then they could find in a partnership or sole proprietership?

    A lot of kids respond to me these days, "Well, if we didn't, we wouldn't have businesses." Sure we would, but they would be partnerships, taxed at normal rates and liable in court for the damage they do.

    I invite you to join me in correcting this dangerous PR line, that a corporation has no duty but to enrich the owners. A corporation's stated, admitted, confessed duty in black and white is to benefit the people of whatever state they were incorporated in. If the men behind that corporation want to pursue their own enrichment above all else, they are free to do so, but they must do so under the legal strictures of partnership, not corporation. They may then pursue as much profit as they wish, but they will be taxed at normal rates and be liable for their actions in court -- just like the rest of us.

    As far as privately-run prisons, we used to have them in this country in the years between the Civil War and the Depression. They led to such horrors and scandals they were eventually outlawed. Unfortunately, like a lot of other cockroaches, they crawled back in during the Reagan years.

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
  68. W Pa Child Care's $2.3 Mili. of odd expenses... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    February 12 Wilkes-Barre's "Time Leader" newspaper article:

    "Limos, new suit part of $2.26M juvie costs eyed"
    By Jennifer Learn-Andes
    Luzerne County Reporter

    The state has identified $2.26 million in questionable expenses at the western Pennsylvania juvenile detention center involved in Luzerne Countyâ(TM)s public corruption investigation, according to a draft audit obtained Wednesday.
    Read more Luzerne County Judges articles

    Those expenses include limousine rides to the King of Prussia Mall and NCAA basketball tournament, a fishing trip on Butler Township attorney Robert Powellâ(TM)s yacht and a $3,500 custom-made suit for former Hazleton Mayor Mike Marsicano, the audit said.

    The state Department of Public Welfare launched the audit to determine if Western Pa. Child Careâ(TM)s costs were accurate and âoereasonableâ because those costs drive the amount of state reimbursement given to Luzerne County and other counties that lodge youth there.

    Two Luzerne County judges â" Mark Ciavarella and Mike Conahan â" are set to plead guilty today for receiving $2.6 million in kickbacks in exchange for favorable rulings and other actions that led to Luzerne Countyâ(TM)s use of Western PA Child Care and the PA Child Care detention center in Pittston Township.

    In response to the findings, the state plans to reduce the facilityâ(TM)s allowable costs from $7.4 million to $6.1 million, which will reduce the daily rates that will be used for state reimbursement.

    Construction costs also play a role in the reimbursement formula, and the state plans to knock $1 million off the recorded $14 million tab to finance the building.

    The reason: The audit found that the facilityâ(TM)s owners â" Powell and Pittsburgh area attorney Greg Zappala â" withdrew $1 million of the construction loan proceeds as âoeconsulting feesâ paid to companies they owned. Half went to Powellâ(TM)s company, Vision Holdings Inc., and half went to Zappalaâ(TM)s company, Consulting Innovations and Services Inc., the audit said.

    Zappala last year bought out Powellâ(TM)s ownership stake in Western PA Child Care.

    Dan Fee, a spokesman for both juvenile facilities, said Zappala received the audit report after it was posted on media Web sites. He said Zappala will review the report and issue a public response in the near future.

    Powell could not be reached for comment.

    Luzerne County Commissioner Chairwoman Maryanne Petrilla said the information in the audit is âoeshocking and indefensible.â

    âoeHowever, itâ(TM)s marked draft, and the owners will have a chance to respond. These expenses, if charged to the state, are inexcusable,â Petrilla said.

    Minority Commissioner Stephen A. Urban said he âoestrongly recommendsâ that federal authorities investigate the audit findings as part of the county corruption probe.

    The $1 million in withdrawn construction proceeds was part of $2.26 million in questionable expenses.

    The remaining $1.26 million in questioned costs were singled out because of lack of evidence that they were necessary, reasonable and competitively procured, the audit said.

    According to the audit, those expenses include:

    â $533,125 in unsupported âoeadministrative feesâ paid to the center owners.

    â $202,746 in payments to individuals or companies connected to the owners for management services, rent, office expenses, legal expenses, marketing and employee background searches.

    â Costs associated with meals, travel and staff vehicles that were not adequately supported with appropriate documentation.

    â Reimbursement for golf outings and donations.

    â $64,686 in mortgage interest paid on construction loan funds misidentified as consulting fees.

    â $51,482 in interest paid on a line of credit. The state questioned the need for this credit when company funds were loaned interest-fr

  69. Recidivism rates? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just wonder what the recidivism rates for these "harshly penalised" offenders are?

    Anyone who has had any dealings with the juvenile justice system knows that they treat the offenders very, very softly. It takes many, many appearances before the court before they will be incarcerated. Far more so than for adult offenders.

    All a kid learns from that is "the hot stove doesn't burn" and the offending behaviour is too ingrained for the kid to change and they continue to offend, often into adult life.

    Perhaps "three strikes and you're in" is a good thing for juvenile offenders. Harsh penalties act as a deterrent. Maybe soft penalties act as an encouragement?

    How much graffiti do you think you'd see if the kids who did it (and got caught) were sentenced to imprisonment for their third offence?

    I'm not saying what these judges did is right; far from it, they sentenced on the basis of how much money they'd be getting, not on what was in the interests of justice. But, harsh penalties should be the norm, not the exception.

    To quote Syrus (from his maxims). "Fear, not kindness, restrains the wicked."

  70. Some related Civil cases arising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    February 13 article in Wilke-Barre's "Time Leader" newspaper:

    Class action lawsuit filed against Ciavarella, Conahan, others

    WILKES-BARRE - The first of what may be several class action lawsuits filed in response to the alleged juvenile detention scandal was filed in federal court late Thursday.

    Two lawfirms - Cefalo & Associates of West Pittston and Caroselli, Beachler, McTiernan & Conboy in Pittsburgh - filed the lawsuit on behalf of hundreds of children and their families who were impacted by Luzerne County Court of Common Pleas judges Mark A. Ciavarella Jr. and Michael T. Conahan.

    Ciavarella, 58, and Conahan, 56, pleaded guilty in federal court on Thursday to conspiring to impede the Internal Revenue Service in the collection of federal income taxes and with having devised a scheme to defraud the citizens of Luzerne County of their right to honest services, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Middle District of Pennsylvania.

    Federal authorities alleged Ciavarella and Conahan accepted more than $2.6 million from January 2003 to April 2007 from the construction and operation of juvenile detention facilities, including PA Child Care in Pittston Township. They have agreed, according to federal court documents, to serve 87 months in federal prison.

    According to a joint news release from the two law firms, the civil complaint alleged Ciavarella and Conahan - acting under the cloak of the court - willfully and knowingly engaged in racketeering activity and deprived the children of their civil rights.

    "At the hands of two grossly corrupt judges and several conspirators, hundreds of Pennsylvania children, their families and loved ones, were victimized and their civil rights were violated," Attorney Michael J. Cefalo said. "It's our intent to make sure that the system rights this terrible injustice and holds those responsible accountable."

    In addition to Ciavarella and Conahan, the civil complaint lists defendants as:

    Robert J. Powell, The Powell Law Group, P.C. in Butler Township, PA Child Care., LLC, Western PA Child Care, LLC, Robert K. Mericle, Mericle Construction, Inc., Gregory Zappala, Pinnacle Group of Jupiter, LLC, Barbara Conahan, Cindy Ciavarella, Beverage Marketing of PA, Inc., Vision Holdings, LLC, Mid Atlantic Youth Services Corp., and an unnamed attorney.

    The news release from the law firms alleges the defendants in the civil case participated in and benefitted from the criminal activity engaged by Ciavarella and Conahan. Powell allegedly conspired, according to the news release, with other defendants as far back as 2003 to arrange millions in payments to the judges and then further conspired to conceal the payments.

    Powell also benefitted from the illegal activity, the news release from the law firms alleges.

    "The one place our kids should absolutely feel safe is in our system of justice, but in this case, the system served injustice," Attorney William R. Caroselli said.

  71. Judge withdrew pension fund in January 2009!!! by ivi · · Score: 1

    February 14 Wilkes-Barre's "Times Leader" newspaper article:

    Conahan got cash from pension fund
    Records show he withdrew $302,777 from pension account when he retired.

    By Terrie Morgan-Besecker ... Law & Order Reporter

    Luzerne County Judge Michael Conahan withdrew $302,777 from his pension account when he retired in January 2008 â" an action that allowed him to retain nearly $94,000 in interest that might otherwise have been forfeited based on his guilty plea Thursday to federal charges, according to state pension laws.

    Conahan opted to take the lump sum payment, which constituted $208,964, in contributions he made plus $93,812 in interest, in lieu of a higher monthly payment he would have been entitled to had he left the funds there, according to Robert Gentzel, spokesman for the State Employee Retirement System.

    The action ensured Conahan collected the interest payments, which he would not have been entitled to recoup if he had pleaded guilty prior to his retirement and that plea resulted in the forfeiture of his pension, according to the stateâ(TM)s Pension Forfeiture Act.

    That act states that any person convicted of a crime that is considered a âoeforfeitable offenseâ is entitled to recoup only the money he or she paid into the retirement system, Gentzel said. They cannot collect interest, which accrues at a rate of 4 percent annually.

    That did not impact Conahan, however, because he retired on Jan. 15, 2008 â" just more than a year before the U.S. Attorneyâ(TM)s office filed fraud and tax charges against him and a co-defendant Judge Mark Ciavarella.

    Conahan and Ciavarella pleaded guilty Thursday to charges of tax evasion and of defrauding the public of their honest services in connection with a more than $2.6 million kickback scheme.

    In addition to the lump sum, Conahan has been receiving a monthly pension payment of $8,073.87 since his retirement. He would lose future payments if his guilty plea is ultimately deemed to be a forfeitable offense, but he would not be required to pay back the past monthly payments.

    Thatâ(TM)s because forfeiture affects only money that is paid after a conviction has been obtained and the person has been officially sentenced, Gentzel said.

    âoeThere is not a way we can reach back and recover prior payments. Forfeiture is prospective form the date of conviction,â he said.

    The stateâ(TM)s forfeiture act requires the forfeiture of pension benefits for anyone convicted of certain crimes that âoebreach the memberâ(TM)s duty of faithful and honest public serviceâ if the crime was committed through the personâ(TM)s public office.

    Given that definition, itâ(TM)s anticipated the offenses Conahan and Ciavarella committed will be considered forfeitable offenses. That determination has not been officially made yet, however.

    Gentzel said the retirement system generally does not conduct that analysis until after a conviction has been obtained.

    Conahan and Ciavarellaâ(TM)s plea agreements call for them to serve 87 months in prison and to pay an amount of restitution that has not yet been determined.

    Federal forfeiture laws permit the government to seek a wide variety of assets, including pensions, to fulfill restitution orders. Whether Conahanâ(TM)s lump sum pension payment could be subject to forfeiture was not immediately clear Friday.

  72. Judge's juvenile cases to be reviewed by ivi · · Score: 1

    February 12 Wilkes-Barre's "Times Leader" newspaper article:

    Judge picked to review Ciavarella juvenile cases

    By Terrie Morgan-Besecker ... Law & Order Reporter

    The state Supreme Court has appointed a senior Berks County judge to review potentially thousands of cases that were handled by Luzerne County juvenile court judge Mark Ciavarella dating back to 2003.
    Read more Luzerne County Judges articles

    In appointing Senior Judge Arthur E. Grim, the high court said it wanted to ensure a thorough review is conducted of all cases to determine whether a âoetravesty of juvenile justiceâ occurred under Ciavarellaâ(TM)s tenure, and, if so, to take whatever action is necessary to provide relief to the affected juveniles.

    That relief could include holding new hearings, filing petitions to expunge their records or to vacate their adjudications entirely, the court said.

    The court was prompted to act following the filing of criminal charges on Jan. 26 against Ciavarella and Judge Michael Conahan that alleged, in part, the judges profited from Ciavarellaâ(TM)s sentencing of juveniles to detention centers once owned by Butler Township attorney Robert Powell.

    Ciavarella and Conahan are scheduled to plead guilty today to charges that they accepted more than $2.6 million in kickbacks in exchange for rulings that benefited the detention centers.

    âoeWe are very pleased and applaud the court for taking the step of appointing a special master,â said Marsha Levick, an attorney with the Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia, the agency that filed the petition that led to the courtâ(TM)s action. âoeJudge Grim is an excellent choice. Theyâ(TM)ve granted him broad discretion to fashion relief for thousands of kids, which is a critically important step in the process.â

    The law center asked the court to review Luzerne County cases after data showed that more than 50 percent of children who appeared before Ciavarella in 2005 and 2006 were not represented by an attorney. The countyâ(TM)s juvenile detention placement rate was also significantly higher than the state average.

    The Supreme Courtâ(TM)s order directs Grim to identify juveniles who were not represented by an attorney and those who were committed to the Pa. Child Care and Western Pa Child Care detention centers. Grim will then recommend to the court whether a child should be granted a new hearing, or whether to grant a petition to expunge their record or vacate their adjudication.

    In deciding whether to a recommend a new hearing, the court directed Grim to consider whether the youth is still subject to jurisdiction of the juvenile court.

    Levick said she expects most cases will be resolved by filing petitions to expunge records, because the vast majority of affected youth are no longer under the jurisdiction of the juvenile court.

    District Attorney Jacqueline Musto Carroll and Luzerne County President Judge Chester Muroski vowed they will provide âoecomplete cooperationâ to Grim. Muroski said arrangements have been made for Grim to occupy a chamber in the Penn Place building to ensure he has full access to all files he needs.

    3 Reader Comments

    D R Lunsford said...

    This is epic sociopathy. A country where this can happen can't possibly live very long. Who knows what mountain of corruption in American justice underlies this tip of the iceberg? One looks at his neighbors and wonders - who are these people? What sort of country do I live in? Is anything real? Is there any level of depravity unexplored by modern Americans? -drl

    February 12, 2009 at 4:36 AM

    sunlight said...

    clean their records? ha! get the check book out how about that?

    February 12, 2009 at 6:38 AM

    concerned resident said...

    While I applaud the decision of the State Supreme Court in/re to reviewing previous sentencing of our county juvenilles, I am wondering: just where do the funds come from to cover Judge Arthur E. Grim's salary and related expenses for this project. Will Luzerne County be liable for any of these expenses?

    February 12, 2009 at 12:43 PM

  73. PA Child Care -not- being investigated!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    February 14 Wilkes-Barre's "Times Leader" newspaper

    Juvie centers not target of ongoing probe
    Letter from U.S. attorney to lawyers for juvenile centers states no indictments coming.

    By Jennifer Learn-Andes ... Luzerne County Reporter

    U.S. Attorney Martin Carlson has advised attorneys for PA Child Care and Western PA Child Care that their corporate clients are not the target of a corruption probe in Luzerne County and will not be indicted by a grand jury, according to letter sent to the attorneys.

    The document was obtained Friday by The Times Leader. When contacted, Dan Fee, spokesman for the detention centers, confirmed that it was authentic.

    Carlson declined to elaborate, saying he does not comment on âoeprivate correspondence.â

    The brief Feb. 12 letter, addressed to attorney Donald J. Golberg of Ballard & Spall in Philadelphia, says:

    âoeMy purpose in writing to you is to advise that your corporate clients, PA Child Care and Western PA Child Care, are not targets of the federal grand jury investigation into judicial corruption in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, and, based upon the information before us, will not be indicted by the grand jury.â

    Fee declined to comment on the letter.

    The facilities, currently owned by Pittsburgh area attorney Greg Zappala, figured prominently in federal charges against former Luzerne County president judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan.

    The men pleaded guilty Thursday to tax evasion and devising a scheme to defraud the public of their honest services. Federal prosecutors say the men received more than $2.6 million in kickbacks in exchange for favorable rulings and actions that led to Luzerne Countyâ(TM)s use of both detention centers.

    The federal charges detail payments made to the judges by two men, and one of them was indirectly identified as Butler Township attorney Robert Powell, who co-owned both centers with Zappala. Powell sold his shares in both centers to Zappala last year.

    Powell has claimed through his lawyers that he âoenever offered to pay a single pennyâ to the judges and was instead a âoevictim of their demands for payment.â

    The Western PA Child Care facility made headlines this week because a state welfare department audit identified $2.26 million in questionable expenses at the facility.

    Those expenses include limousine rides to the King of Prussia Mall and NCAA basketball tournament, a fishing trip on Powellâ(TM)s yacht and a $3,500 custom-made suit for former Hazleton Mayor Mike Marsicano, the audit said.

    The state Department of Public Welfare launched the audit to determine if Western PA Child Careâ(TM)s costs were accurate and âoereasonableâ because those costs drive how much state reimbursement is paid to counties for youths who are lodged there.

    In response to the findings, the state plans to reduce the facilityâ(TM)s allowable costs from $7.4 million to $6.1 million, which will reduce the daily rates that will be used for state reimbursement.

    Construction costs also play a role in the reimbursement formula, and the state plans to knock $1 million off the recorded $14 million tab to finance the building because the audit determined that Zappala and Powell withdrew $1 million of the construction loan proceeds as âoeconsulting feesâ paid to other companies they own.

    Fee said Friday that Zappala is still reviewing the audit and will publicly comment in a few days.

    The audit also questions Luzerne Countyâ(TM)s decision to reserve nine emergency shelter beds at the Western PA Child Care facility, resulting in the countyâ(TM)s payment of $73,920 for beds that were never used by county youth.

    Commissioners did not renew that contract last year, and county Acting Probation Services Director Mike Vecchio said the county has not sent youth to the facility since April 2008.

    According to the county controllerâ(TM)s office, the c

  74. List of Articles on corrupt Judges, et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Other newspaper articles - many related to this matter - have links at this page:

        http://www.timesleader.com/news/hottopics/judges

  75. Total illegal BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This judge should be horse whipped for violating the civil rights of an American Citizen.

    Firstly, the principle is a public figure. Secondly, parody is protected speech. Thirdly, any American citizen has the right to freedom of the press with no restrictions. It is a constitutional guarantee.

    More than likely this judge gets a kickback for everyone they lock up, the same as those other judges.

    We need to preemptively investigate and prosecute every judge that has taken a single red cent in kickbacks.

    Anyone who is such a traitor to the constitution deserves to be hung from the neck until they are dead, if found guilty by a jury. Hopefully a jury made up of members of the community they have harmed.

  76. Nah... by thebigbadme · · Score: 1

    It'd be much worse to send them to a federal prison, but not grant them any extra protections when inside... you know, let the populace deal with them

    --
    "It's the Law of the Universe, and I'm the sheriff." Slash-cott 2/10-2/17
  77. Reminds me of my judge by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1

    Judge D. Lowell Jensen of the Federal Court of Northern California sentenced me to nine years in Federal prison (this was back in 1993).

    Guess what? I'm sitting in the Federal Transit Center in Dublin, California, when another inmate clues me in on the INSLAW scandal, where the Justice Department defrauded a case management database software company, nearly driving them to bankruptcy, so they could steal the software and sell it all over the place.

    Turns out my judge was involved in that when he was at the DoJ and was rewarded with a Federal judgeship as a result of his corruption.

    In other words, my judge should have been in Federal prison right next to me, according to the opinion of two Federal judges who looked at the INSLAW case and concluded there was clear evidence of DoJ fraud.

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  78. For all judges by Myrkridian42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For years I've said that prior to being allowed to sit on the bench, a judge should have to spend a week in jail. How can one "fairly" give out punishment when they have no idea what said punishment is like?

  79. RE: US Justices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow!

    A corrupt Federal Judge.

    Imagine that!

    Guess this Judge, should have payed more attention to Hon. Mr. John Roberts.

    Then again, perhaps no.

    In as short as 24 months there could be a gallos errected on the Capital Mall.

    And on the platform, will stand the Hon. Mr. John Roberts, Fmr Supreme Court Head Justice.

    Having faced an international war crimes trial, the Hon. Mr. John Roberts was found guilty on all charges, steming from the Fmr President George Walker Bush's "War of Terror." The charges included and were not limited to, Wire Fraud, Extortion, Murder, Kidnapping, Impersonation of a Federal Official, Grand Theft, Abdication of the US Constitution and Abdication of all States Constitutions, and Abdication of All States Laws, and Abdication all international laws and Treaties.

    During the trial, Fmr President Geroge Walker Bush was shot dead by Mr. Richard Cheney.

    What a lot!

    On the faitful day on the Capital Mall, 24 months from now, the Hon. Mr. John Roberts will be seen trembiling, sweating buckets, shitting-pissing in his pants, and crying.

    Perhaps he, in his last ignominous moments of his ignominious life, will think back, back to his youth, of shop-lifting, of raping school girls and boys, of being a bully.

    And then, as the platform falls, the rope tightens round his neck to break, the Hon. Mr. John Roberts will think back to 01-20-2009, when he chocked on the "Oath of Office" in his "service to the new President," Mr. Barak Obama; shall we say, a Fruadian Slip.

  80. Who says slavery is dead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    C'mon, binding/imprisoning people for profit?

    And they said slavery was dead.

    Just go to the middle east and how much. You will have your slave in a matter of days. The african continent has been perfecting the slavery market for 500 years or more.

    You can also go to parts of the old USSR and find yourself a slave though usually female only are of value. They are still working out the kinks. They will probably have to go to africa or find an arab to figure out how to do slavery efficiently.

    Slavery has been around since the dawn of time and every race and culture known has engaged in it (either buying or selling or both)

  81. A what? by jandersen · · Score: 1

    commercially operated juvenile detention center

    It is truly sad to see how judges and police in the States are willing - eager, even - to squash the lives of a young person who has done something stupid. There is definitely something wrong with the minds of people like that. But what really startled me was the phrase "commercially operated juvenile detention center"; to me that sounds like something out of a medieval horror movie - in effect, a company that on one hand receives public funding, and on the other hand has access to slave labour. I can't begin to express how deeply that disgusts me.

  82. You're forgetting by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    You're forgetting

    4.99) No ???

  83. Software developer responds by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Whoever said slavery is dead?

    You must be one of those MBA people who think unpaid mandatory overtime is a good thing since that's when you're at a tropical "retreat" doing "team building" while sipping drinks with umbrellas. Or at a trade show where you've hired a model to stand next to a product and pretend to be interested in your gizmo she doesn't understand.

    We programmers do the mandatory overtime locked in dungeons where our only reward is free low budget coffee.

    1. Re:Software developer responds by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      I'm chained to the help desk.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  84. why not imprison ALL of SNL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and all other shows like that? i mean, this is MYSPACE for christs sake. at least that grrls gonna get rich. get out and SUE! unjust sentencing n all that.

    that judge shouldnt be on the bench after he ADMITTED that lil get rich quick scheme.

  85. Equal Justice by talldean · · Score: 1

    "Equal justice" would be giving the judges the combined sentences of everyone they unfairly sentenced. Save voter fraud and treason, this seems the greatest possible corruption of our government.

  86. Anyone else reminded of 'The Talisman'? by Chordonblue · · Score: 1

    Was anyone else reading this article reminded of 'Sunlight Gardener's Home For Wayward Boys' from 'The Talisman'?

    In Stephen King's book, the lead character and his friend are picked up by the cops for no other reason than walking through their town, and then the Judge sends him off to the 'home' to be 'rehabilitated'.

    The Judge and the cops get a kickback from the home, and it's clear that there are many boys there who don't belong there... Just like this story.

    I was kinda hoping this was more fictitious than fact, but I guess this story shows it does indeed happen. Sad.

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."