Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Asks For a Refund From Laid-Off Workers [updated]
An anonymous reader writes "The large print giveth, the small print taketh away. Microsoft, which recently laid off 1400 employees, is now claiming that some of those lucky schmoes were inadvertently overpaid on their severance package. A letter from the company, which was subsequently circulated on the internet, states: 'We ask that you repay the overpayment and sincerely apologize for any inconvenience to you.' Microsoft has confirmed the authenticity of the letter, but it's not known what the amounts in question are, or how many of the 1400 were affected." Update: 02/24 14:00 GMT by T : VinylRecords writes "Well, now Microsoft has recanted, saying that the situation has resulted in unfortunate amounts of bad press and public relations. 'This was a mistake on our part,' said a Microsoft spokesman in an e-mailed statement. 'We should have handled this situation in a more thoughtful manner.'"
There's nothing at all accidental about it. It's a cruel joke perpetrated by cruel people.
What if they agree to use their severance to buy Vista: Ultimate Edition?
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
"A letter from the company, which was subsequently circulated on the internet, states: 'We ask that you repay the overpayment and sincerely apologize for any inconvenience to you.' Microsoft has confirmed the authenticity of the letter, but it's not known what the amounts in question are, or how many of the 1400 were affected."
How's that any different than when the government overpays you?
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
then we understand.
Keep up the good work Balmer and Billy!
Microsoft follows the same policies that any publicly traded company would. Are we suppose to be shocked? You know, they do have an obligation to the shareholders, don't you?
Why are people so lunkheaded about this?
there is NO WAY I would consider paying that back until I get a letter from a lawyer.
You mean like this one?
I'm not a Microsoft employee, but I'm friends with many - and I've intern'd there a number of times.
Microsoft doesn't treat their employee's like "cogs".
As a OSS zealot, I expected to hate my time there - but they really do treat their employees well. Just because they had their first-ever layoff doesn't mean that they treat their employees badly.
Even though they have tons of cash in the bank, they risk bad publicity to get the overpayment back
Instead of declining comment, they admit the letter is valid, thus proving a general lack of confidence
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
IANAL but i'd expect the fees related to going after individuals who refuse to give back the money probably costs more than just letting them keep it. they'll probably just write it off and note that ex-employee's name in the HR database as a "do not hire"
Or better yet: "Dear Steve Ballmer, Please accept this drawing of a 7-legged spider..."
If one such laid off worker decided to keep the money Microsoft is asking back for, do they have any legal reasons to get this money back? Does he/she actually owe Microsoft this money?
I understand completely then. Sometimes I find Excel gives me non-trivial rounding errors too.
I guess you must have some unique skills, or are a leader in your field, or your resume is so good that it would also open doors and guarantee you a new job without references. Pretty confident for this economic environment, huh?
My previous employer overpaid quite a few people a few years back, and the worst that happened to people who didn't offer to return the money was that they had to pay income taxes on it. Although the total amount was about $80k, it was divided among so many employees that taking legal action against any one employee was not worth it.
You'd be surprised how much zealotry you can accomplish at Microsoft :) There's opportunities everywhere!
There's at least one large product with decent Unix support thanks to my efforts (unrelated to my internship, even).
My point was this: Microsoft does evil things, but we all know that. But no one ever said they treated their employee's evilly.
You don't have to be blind to be a zealot. I prefer to think my zealotry is based on reality.
You probably have some things to learn about zealotry. In a case like this, you should jump at the chance to not come to microsofts defense, Anonymous Coward. ...if that even is your real name.
Zealot is not synonymous with bigot.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
That is funny, i have friends that will say just the opposite and the place is a 'code mill' where people are expendable at the lower levels.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
When you train the people in payroll to keep clicking "Allow".
In the past, Microsoft has settled fines by giving away the fine value in money-off vouchers for schools to buy cheaper copies of Windows (in areas where the schools had tended to use the competition's systems, naturally).
These workers should do the same thing. Print up a few dozen vouchers for $100 off a week's contracting rate.
Generally you do have an obligation to return someone else's property that accidentally came into your possession. You'd be guilty of theft if you knowingly kept it despite knowing that it came into your possession by accident; if you had reason to believe it was legitimately yours, you could plead not guilty to theft, but would probably still have to return it if a court determined it wasn't rightfully yours (i.e. not paid as part of a legitimate contract, or given as a gift). In this case if the employees had signed paperwork specifying a particular amount of money, and they got a larger amount, they would have trouble arguing that they believed it to be anything but an accidental overpayment. I guess you could try arguing that it was a legitimate gift from Microsoft, but I doubt that would succeed.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It might be bad PR, but why is it bad morals?
If you accidentally overpay someone, you shouldn't ask for the money? I'd argue that if you know you've been overpaid, keeping the extra money is bad morals.
The letter asks for repayments to be sent to Fargo, North Dakota. If I got a letter purporting to be from my former company asking me to send money to a totally different state from that where I had worked and that where the company was based, I'd be more than a bit suspicious. This is apparently legit, but I wonder if any employees thought it was a scam (a scam by other than Microsoft, anyway)...
No wait that's IBM.
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
You probably can't blame ol' Billy or Stevie for this one. The refund was probably asked for by an accountant who made a mistake when giving out the severance package.
Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
I agree. This happens all the time. Accountants and HR people are just human, and they make mistakes. Sure, the systems are mostly automated, but when there are exceptional events or conditions change (this WAS Microsoft's first massive layoff), mistakes happen, and people pay it back all the time. The same way if they underpay you, they'll give it back.
Now, the only difference is those are people who got fired...so unless there's a legally binding agreement over this package (like, if something was signed...which it probably was), they have no reason to pay back, and they're probably not in the mood to do so. But again, if they signed papers, they don't have much choice.
Also, MS has offered to help some of these people to get new jobs, and even may hire some of them back in the future. Thats typical in IT in general. So unless some of these people REALLY hate Microsoft to the level of an average slashdotter, its not in the former employee's best interests to screw their former employer over. May cause issues getting references too, if t he direct supervisors catch ear of it.
To somewhat quote the late Charlton Heston, "Corporate American can have my money back when they can pry it from my cold, dead hands!"
No one was over paid more than Steve Balmer. If you are working for a company started by one of the world's riches men (Bill Gates), you should be paide more than the average salary.
The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
For those that don't get it (like me):
http://www.27bslash6.com/overdue.html
and then it "sold" on ebay.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
Being a cog doesn't mean you are not treated well. I change the oil in my car regularly, and yet it is just a cog in my life, easily replaceable. The reason Microsoft treats its employees well isn't because they actually care about their happiness, it's because it makes better business sense for the employees to be happy. They work harder that way. Cogs in a wheel.
A good company will be one that treats me as a partner, not as a coding machine. Such companies exist, and I've worked for them, even if they are rare (but becoming less so!). Even in manufacturing, companies like that exist. One example is Springfield Remanufacturing Corporation. It is an employee owned company. The management doesn't consider itself better than the rest, they work as a team, and they don't have layoffs. They have an open system, where the employees actually understand what management is doing, instead of just being told to do it. If someone is having trouble doing they job, instead of firing them, they get taught how to do better. Maybe they don't have free massages for the workers, but the workers are treated like human beings, who have judgement and capabilities, and they get their fair share.
I suggest reading "The Great Game of Business." Although the book is targeted towards management, it completely changed my idea of what a company can be, and it's not a free xbox.
Qxe4
And when a large group of us applied for unemployment, we got more than we should have.
After a few months, we all got a letter from the unemployment office wanting the extra money back. Good luck with that, except I still owe them money and the debt never goes away.
If I ever get laid off again, I can't draw a penny until the original amount is paid off out of what I will draw if I end up unemployed again.
When it was all over, the unemployment office sent me a postcard asking what I thought about my experience with them. I sent them a postcard back that was just short of having a federal marshal knock on my door. If I was at home right now, I would post a copy of it. It was a laugh riot.
transporter_ii
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
References are people you know who have agreed to do just that, not random people at places you used to work.
Because of the fear of lawsuits, the standard policy at almost every company (and 99.9% of large companies) is that the only question they will answer is "when did ____ work at ____?"
In addition, if this sort of overpayment did bring legal action against the ex-employee, any mention of such a matter to a new prospective employer would really open up the old employer to nasty lawsuits.
Dear Microsoft,
It has recently come to my attention that I have needlessly paid licensing fees for multiple OEM licenses relating to use your Windows computer operating system (hereafter referred to as "malware").
I have upon many occassions purchased a computer from a vendor who is in the unfortunate position of being a Microsoft partner. Microsoft has continually discouraged its OEM partners from shipping "naked" (sans operating system) PCs. This has led to the situation where I, as both a consumer and business purchaser of laptop, desktop and server class computer hardware, often find it difficult to avoid paying licensing fees relating to your Malware when I order a new system. This is troubling since I neither want to run, nor to purchase a license enabling me to run your malware.
Furthermore, I have suffered financially for many years as a result of your Malware being installed on the majority of desktop computers. Many of my web site customers are infected with a specific bundled component of your malware ("Internet Explorer"). Supporting this doubles the development and maintainance cost of my companies web site.
I ask that you refund my overpayment on unwanted licenses for your malware and make a further payment in respect of losses incurred by my company due to the "Internet Explorer" component of your malware. The net amount you owe to myself is $60,000 payable by check or money order within 14 days.
Thanks,
Anonymous Coward
c/o slashdot.org
I've interviewed dozens of people, and never once did I call someone for a reference. It just didn't seem like it would be important or useful. Other companies might be different, but I'm sure I could get a job without a reference from my most recent employer.
Incidentally, you don't actually need to be at the top of your field, you just need to be able to produce enough to be worth what you want to get paid. If you can do that, then you will have no problem finding a job. Why would anyone want to pay you more than you are worth? Lots of people will be willing to pay you less than you are worth, and some people will be willing to pay you exactly what you are worth.
Qxe4
When I quit at Amazon, they actually offered me a legal document (optional, of course) promising them that I wouldn't sue for giving references. If you sign it, they'll allow your manager/coworker to give references, if not they only gave name, rank, and serial number. If you think the references would be good you sign it, if not you don't. I expect to see more companies doing that in the future.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
It wasn't their first-ever layoff. Just the first that ever made such a huge media splash.
Either by cost, value, or reference, all versions of windows were overpaid by consumers... what about returning those overpayments? Probably that will put around enough cash to end the current world economy problems, as a bonus.
Why do you think the people in payroll screwed it up on purpose? They got to see some of their own names on the list of the soon-to-be walking dead while they were making up the pay.
So they zuned Microsoft back while they still could.
A good case against automatic deposit. Also, a good time to get a lawyer.
It looks like your trying to reclaim an overpayment. Shall I :
- Appropriate an arbitrary amount?
- Send out a legal notice?
- Leverage it as a condition of potential re-employment?
If they just mailed $X with no solicitation, then sure. But it looks like this was an agreed compensation payment, with the check written for the wrong amount.
Similarly, if I mailed Safeway a $74 check without them soliciting it, they'd be in their rights to cash and keep it. But if I accidentally wrote them a $74 check on a $47 grocery bill during checkout, I'd be within my rights to go with the receipt and ask for the accidental $27 overpayment back.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The way a court would view this would have almost entirely to do with what had (or hadn't) been agreed on beforehand. If their employment contract or severance paperwork specified a dollar amount either explicitly or implicitly as a percentage of salary, then they'll need to pay the money back. It is clearly an error in that case, and you agreed to a different amount. It'd be no different than if in a store you accidentally hand a cashier a $100 bill instead of a $10 one for a $10 item. They don't get to keep the extra, they need to give you back $90.
Now if there was no agreement on amount, then MS is probably SOL. If they just said something like "You'll get a severance bonus upon termination," without bothering to state the amount, then the employees can keep what they got. MS will only get it back if the employees are nice about it. However, this situation isn't real likely.
My bet is that they probably did have an agreement in place before hand, most of the time when there's something like this there is a preexisting agreement. In that case, the employees are going to have to give the money back.
I guess Bill Gates finally paid someone for forwarding that email to 10 people, and they want it back? I've lost all faith in chain mail.
"I'm sorry sir, but when we attempted to verify your prior employment they said they never heard of you."
... Holiday pay charges you!
I over-pay my bills all the time, but that's because I have a continuing relationship with my internet, cell phone, and utilities companies, so I like it that every few months I get a bill that says "this is a credit, don't pay it!"
That's different from the situation of the former employees, There's no ongoing relationship, they probably figured any overpayment was for other stuff that they were owed (vacation pay, etc), and that they had a legit right to it. They've probably also budgeted consequent to the revised amount, and are now doubly screwed. If it's a few hundred or thousand, microsoft should have written a nice letter stating that they have paid them an additional amount as a onetime assistance benefit because of the inconvenience of the layoffs, and gotten a pr boost. After all, if you can't fix it, feature it, right?
If it's in the tens of thousands (or more) per employee, then it shows just how out-of-whack Microsoft is.
Also, now that these are FORMER employees, maybe they should send back a demand letter for their back-pay for uncompensated overtime.
I think MS got what they deserved here.
Should the employees give it back?
Yes. Anyone who keeps something that doesn't belong to them is an honorless cheating scumbag.
Will they?
Probably not. What possible leverage does MS have to make the employees do what they should? The ex-employees have no reason, other than honor, to give it back. MS has no leverage, they shot themselves in the foot.
Personally, I think that all the workers who don't cough up the dough are just exploiting microsoft's blunder to advantage themselves.
However, since MS has exploited weakness to make itself stronger and stabbed its competitors in the soft underbelly (netscape anyone?), I think this is nothing more than a bit of bad karma biting them in the arse.
They really have no choice but to write it off as a blunder. Expecting the ex employees to be honest? Hah, they're lying cheating human beings! What do you expect them to do?
The only way I see MS coming out ahead is by taking people to court over it and tacking on punitive damages for a breach of constructive trust. Knowingly keeping or disposing of property that isn't yours is called conversion.
MS screwed itself over and needs to let it go because of the bad PR that fighting karma will create. But those folks who kept the overpayment for themselves are a bunch of dirty rotten cheaters and should be ashamed of themselves.
And the nincompoop in the payroll department? A ripe target for both a canning and a negligence suit owing to breach of fiduciary duty. This is really the only person I see MS able to go after without a major karmic backlash. If the action was deliberate, then it's embezzling and he/she deserves jail time.
But they overpaid them by giving them copies of XP.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
True, excess gov't can also be ugly, but lows are less low.
Heh. Looks like someone needs to study some history.
This sort of thing happens all the time, banks overpay, payroll overpays, people overpay. It happens, if you get called out on it, you are legally and morally obligated to return the money(personally I tend to point out the mistake if I see it being made as well, but that's me).
Is it a little petty to be going after terminated employees if the amounts are fairly trivial? Yeah. Do we know that the amounts are trivial? No. Remember an average of an extra grand per employee is 1.4 million dollars, not exactly pocket change, even to Microsoft.
Companies do this all the time, it's part interacting with human beings who can and do make mistakes. If anyone other than Microsoft had done this, the article wouldn't have been written.
I'd call you an honorless piece of scum exploiting a blunder on MS's part to keep money you have no legal right to, and sneering with a protruded tongue at the fact that MS can't do squat about it now that the ship has sailed.
Shame on you, because honest people don't need to be leveraged to do what's right.
The affected employees should repay Microsoft in the form of coupons that Microsoft can exchange for their services in the future.
How bizarre. My last 2 jobs wanted references. This wasn't something where the HR department would call the HR department - that's "a background check" not "references". A reference check is when the hiring company asks for a direct contact number for a former co-worker and a former boss. A senior manager or VP calls the numbers you provide directly, and chats with your reference. At my current job, the CEO wanted at least one reference that *he already knew* so that he could be sure my references were real (for a senior-ish role at a 300 person company).
The whole thing's a sham, of course. You only give numbers of people who'll say that you walk on water - but if you can't provide the number of a former manager who will at least *pretend* that you were great, you'll have a hard time gettin hired in Silly Valley (at least, hired by a smaller company).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
We regret to inform that we did not intend to pay you a severance package of $30,000.
We meant to give you a severance package of 30,000 MS points. Please give us back $29,850 then proceed to spend the remaining $150 on movie rentals, game addons, and desktop backgrounds for your xbox.
Love,
Microsoft
It might be bad PR, but why is it bad morals?
it's a slippery slope. one day you're overpaying employees you've fired, the next day you're stabbing hobos to death.
were one of the unlucky ones laid off from work, I would really like to say the words, "So sue me," and not return the money. But, to take the ethical high ground and pay back the money is really the best course of action because it makes you look like the good guy. You will be more apt to be considered for rehire. I dislike M$ intensely but I won't stoop to ethics violations .... including pirating M$ software. Returning the money only makes you smell like a rose. I know that those laid off are suffering, but, at least you aren't alone. The suffering is widespread and getting worse by the week. The only silver lining to this cloud is that the government needs to pay attention to the plight of the working class and middle class because the adverse economic conditions are so widespread. The unemployed are no longer a statistical minority, and while sad, will actually help in the long run.
I wonder if they actually call the references they asked for? The organization I work for is small to mid-sized (roughly 1000 total employees), and I'm pretty familiar with the HR department. While we ASK for references on our application, as rule we don't ever actually contact them. All they normally do is contact the last 1 or 2 employers to confirm that they were indeed an employee there, and they contact educational institutions for degree verification.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Mistakenly overpaid severance to 1400 laid off workers? Definitive proof that the Microsoft accounting department really does use Microsoft software! And it may have even used old Pentiums for the floating point calculations!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
At least how many digits we're talking about...
Most fonts keep numbers monospaced. Other characters in the fonts may have variable widths, but almost all fonts keep numbers the same width. This has to do with lining numbers up in columns when doing reports.
I measure about six pixels per number. The zip code is about 30 pixels wide (6 pixels x 5 digits = 30).
The blanked out area is 42 pixels wide. Now some of that is two spaces and a decimal point. Spaces look about 4 pixels and a decimal point is probably 2 or 3 pixels (it's hard to tell since the document was scanned in anti-aliased). That leaves 42 pixels - 3 pixels (decimal) - 8 pixels (spaces). About 32 pixels, or about 5 digits. Put 2 on one side of the decimal, and that leaves a number between $100 and $999 as an overpayment.
Actually, this sounds about right for a math error of this type, and isn't too unusual based upon the complexities of this type of payout which includes includes considering the base salary, bonus payouts, unused vacations, unused sick leave, years in service, ranking, etc. Add in some government specific stuff, 401K vestments, stock plans, and who knows what else, and you can see how complex this can get.
Still, it's hard to understand all of this: Microsoft laid off 1,400 people. If each of them received what seemed to be about $1000 in overpay, you're talking about $1.4 million dollars at the very most. If the average mistake was $300 and only 1/2 the people got that, you're talking about $200,000 (a more likely, but still quite large sum).
Heck, the paper work alone to send out these letters and to track them probably costs Microsoft more -- not to mention the bad will and publicity it'll generate.
To Microsoft:
I think you are mistaken.
You can claim bail package from Government and NOT from your former employees.
Cheers,
Mahadiga
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
For Microsoft's payroll system.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I personally know six people from one of the top CS universities in the world who interned at Microsoft. And they all refuse to go back.
...you can bet Accounting will blame IT.
...YOU pay Microsoft severance!
unfortunately, not everyone can be taught. lots of people are just duds, the GFC has been great at showing most of them.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Wow... Government spending equals concentration camps?
- These characters were randomly selected.
In my book, "Honor" includes defense of the weak, or at the very least, refraining from morally condemning them for the crime of being at the wrong end of the stick.
Microsoft is a successful player in a punishing system designed to keep people over-worked and needy. People are going to starve over the next couple of years directly as a result of predatory business practices and what those practices have collectively done to the economy. Stealing from thieves is not a crime as far as I see it. It's just deserts. Because at the end of the day, the corporate behemoth cannot suffer or die. The humans that beast was supposed to serve, however, can suffer and die, and that trumps moral obligations to a paper monster. Social responsibility should be reserved for people, not heartless machines.
But guilt and self-flagellation have been taught well to the slaves whose livelihoods depend on how high they jump when commanded.
Is it legally right to keep an over-payment? No. But the social contract I 'signed' upon my birth is not one I have willingly agreed to. Born into bondage means, to me, an unspoken right to kill the slave master and escape whenever I get the chance, and I will certainly not feel guilty about doing that. In a system designed from the ground up to enslave the population of the planet through debt, the system as a tool of the enemy. I will never defend the enemy no matter what crimes are done to it. I will cheer.
As it happens, the system is currently self-destructing. Good. It was inevitable. The only bad part is that people will suffer, but that too was pre-planned by those who invented fractional banking and the idea of the interest bearing Federal Reserve note. Population control was always the goal. --Hopefully whatever system replaces it will actually serve humanity. If that ever happens, then theft from the collective wealth will then truly be theft from the people, and then I might start to care and call names. But right now, the downtrodden slave is not my target of ire.
-FL
My job before Amazon (HP) actually told managers that they couldn't give anyone references for anything- including grad school. Although I'm quite sure any halfway decent manager ignored them.
Its quite possible with that waiver they'll also provide performance reviews and other information. Or not, I don't know. I did sign the waiver, so I guess I could call them myself and see if they'll tell me anything, but I'm not quite curious enough.
I agree that its all a game though- you don't even need the number of a former manager. Use a former coworker. Or a friend or family member and have them lie. Unless the reference is mutual it doesn't mean jack. But the business world is too big for you to luck into someone you know mutually most of the time, so you get the game instead.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Prove it!
Let Microsoft prove it in a court of law that it overpaid them.
Just because a BIG corporate demands money from you doesn't mean you have to bend over.
If i claim Microsoft wasted my money due to faults in its XP, would Microsoft bend over and pay me? NO
They will regretfully inform me of their inability to pay and thank me for my comments.
So, i have to sue them.
Similarly, each such employee should send a simple regret letter expressing their deep regret at microsoft and stating clearly their personal policies prevent them from paying. Neither confirm nor deny you owe them money. State POLICY.
Simple.
Microsoft will spend 10x times the money on lawyers to recover the money from you.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Nope, anyone can be taught, and I have the studies to prove it. They have to want it though, if they don't want to learn, of course they won't be able to. GFC just means if someone wants to be an idiot, they can be that, too.
Qxe4
There's a difference. As an intern, you responsibilites end at the end of your internship. So no one is cracking the whip over your head or forces you to come to work on Saturday (otherwise you won't want to join after you graduate). Once you become an FTE (full-time employee) all of that will change. For one, there will be "stack ranking" where you're ranked against your peers according to the perception that management has of you. If you don't pay attention to "visibility" -- you won't get promoted, no matter how much of a genius you are. You will learn this in about a year or two. Another killer thing is that nowhere does the TEAM performance come into the equation. You're competing solely with your peers for a fixed size pie. The problem with this is that someone has to get a shitty review score in order for someone else to get a good review score. If all members of your team are good, you may have to whore yourself to the management in order to get promoted. But that won't be easy either, because your team members are not stupid, and they're doing the same thing.
This is how FTEs are forced into overtime, ridiculous schedules, and other unreasonable demands. Needless to say, this shit doesn't work on interns, since they couldn't care less if they get a promo.
After about 2 or 3 years there I figured things out and started acting accordingly. I maintained a reasonable, albeit not outstanding, promotion velocity while flat out refusing to work weekends and overtime (except in the final stretch of the shipping cycle). I did good work, I kept my manager (and skip-level manager) informed, and I set the expectations beforehand with each new team I moved to.
That said, the endless fucking performance review cycle did me in and I decided to go somewhere where I'd be actually focused on my job, not on keeping everyone informed.
I did learn a TON, though, both about software engineering and about corporate life (or, shall we say, warfare). I can't recommend Microsoft highly enough for someone who's just out of college, if only for 2 or 3 years.
Don't make a mistake of staying longer. The compensation system is engineered in such a way that you really start liking the numbers in your paycheck at around 3 or 4 year mark. Stash away some cash and move on.
No idea. I thought Microsoft was a public company mandated to create profit.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Bad PR?? Lack of morals???
hey, we are talking about Microsoft here!
Template of a sample Letter to be sent to Microsoft:
Sir:
Sub: Refund of "overpayments" supposedly made by Microsoft, Corp to XYZ bearing SSN 000-00-0000
This refers to your letter dated xxx-nn-yyyy bearing reference number: bbbb/nnn stating that you have "overpaid" me an amount of $nnnn and demanding a refund of this excess amount.
I regret to inform you that my policy prevents me from discussing this further until you agree to my following contract conditions:
1) My "record retrieval fee" is $100 for every hour i spend on retrieving my records pertaining to this supposed "overpayment" as you claim.
2) My "billing fee" is $250 per hour for the time i spend on handling this supposed "overpayment" case. This includes waiting time for you to receive this letter sent via First class Post, and to receive a written, signed response from you. This excludes all taxes, surcharges and other charges including but not limited to telephone charges, postal charges, fax charges, stationary supplies, medicare and others i may deem necessary.
3) All legal disputes arising out of this and subsequent related disputes may be pursued only in the County court of Keene, NH
4) This does not construe a legal contract and the terms & conditions specified herewith may be changed by me without notice to you at any time.
If you agree to above specified terms & conditions, kindly send across a signed contract signifying your acceptance along with a payment to the tune of advance 8 hours of work.
If you fail to respond within 48 hours of receipt of this letter, i shall assume that your query has been answered to your satisfaction and no further communication or correspondence shall be entertained.
If you refuse to accept these terms & conditions, kindly signify the same in a signed, written letter stating your response clearly and legibly in English.
Your refusal to accept these terms & conditions shall in no way mean i have accepted your demand, nor shall your acceptance of terms & conditions mean i have accepted your demand to pay.
In the absence of your refusal to accept these terms & conditions, i regret to say my personal policy prevents me from taking any action on your demand.
Thanks
XYZ
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Nope.
People may pay back all the time. Corporates don't pay back. If an employee disputes a settlement and demands the correct amount, a corporate WILL NOT pay.
It will just sit on the letter, and send back a regret response, leaving this poor guy with no recourse but to sue them.
Same should be applied here by employees.
Just because a LARGE corporate demands money from them, they should not poney up.
After all, legally, it makes no sense, and in a way amounts to RICO charges.
If i were such an employee, i would sit tight and send a regret letter informing them of my policy that prevents me from paying without substantial proof.
I will also let them know that by opening my letter they have agreed to sue me if necessary ONLY in my home town's county court.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
The rot sets in from the top. Any other company, with this many blunders, the CEO would be invited to fall on his sword, or step down to "spend more time with their family."
People are insecure enough at their jobs already; telling everyone that there will be another round, with double the head loss, sends the "work even harder and maybe you'll be safe ... for now" message. Not "we've made some hard decisions, lost some good people, those of us who are left have a job building the future of our business."
You don't get good work out of a demoralized, insecure workforce who are spending more time worrying about their resumes and performance reviews than actually producing value. Worse, people will hunker down and "not make waves" - for example, pointing out flaws that need to be fixed in processes - for fear of getting the "not a team player" black mark.
Balmer's office has to be ReZuned. Going forward, Microsoft would have been better off if the DoJ *had* split them into 3 or more companies. It's not like they would have to keep what's left of the former Entertainment Division alive. The XBox continues to bleed money (price cuts to move units, billion-dollar warranty recalls), while Nintendo continues to sell Wiis at their original price point.
Rumour has it that the 360 is the last Microsoft game console. The Wii still has lots of life in its' current incarnation, and the next gens' upgrade path is rather obvious - hi-def output (it's currently POTV - plain old TV). The 360 is already at 720p minimum for all games, so there's no "headroom" to grow a new "wow - this is NEW" factor.
I got my redundancy payment and other such formalities done and dusted one week after I left.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Corporations have a legal obligation to make a profit. They do not have a legal obligation to do the right thing.
Where, please pray tell, is this so?
Companies face a barrage of legal requirements (the right things to do) which they are *legally obliged* to obey.
It is the damned law for grace sakes...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... but most companies I know about have a strict policy of not hiring people that have worked there before.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Just think "Child Tax Credits".
When I read that title I momentarily envisaged Microsoft employees as dead hard drives.
- Dan
If there was a contract, i agree it has to be repaid. But if no contact, Microsoft ( or any company ) can lump it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
About 90% of the (Anonymous) commenters at MiniMSFT. - The notorious bitchy insider blog.
As expected in a company that size, at the lower levels one is expendable, and any higher up one's energy is entirely consumed with political survival.
This may help explain the quality of the product, management and strategy that we have been seeing for the last few years...
you had me at #!
Wow. Where do you work? I need a job like that.
10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
20 DRINK COFFEE
30 GOTO 10
Two wrongs don't make a right in my book either, and the whole logic of "the pot calling the kettle black" doesn't make the kettle any cleaner.
Do you "Turn the other cheek" and "Forgive and forget" as well?
Mind programming comes in all kinds of easily consumed sound-bitten little packages. Predators love people who roll over so nicely. It might be wise to re-think a few things before you end up being somebody's dinner. --You've already got the chops; we need more people who prize honor and courage, but unless one strips away the gunk on the machine, then even people with the potential for good remain part of the problem.
-FL
IANAL, but I believe that regardless of the letter though, they're not allowed to lie in giving a reference.
I wouldn't test things if you *knew* you were let go because you pissed up somebody in upper-admin, but if they told your inquiring employer-possible that you slept on the job, sexually harassed your co-workers, showed up drunk, and and etc etc (and it wasn't true), they'd still be on the line for slander.
You hear a fair bit about the bad PR here, and to be fair I definitely heard a lot of badmouthing vista even among the non-IT crowd, but I still hear a lot of positive things just based on the size of the company etc.
Adding to that, and there's been a lot of good spin around Windows 7 these days, so it seems that their image is improving in that regard. Not many people remember ME, after all.
Yup, they call. Not every company, of course, but more often than not. Of course, you don't expect to hear anything useful, and I wonder what purpose it serves, but management acts like it's more than a background check.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
My industry is actually pretty small - I've been surprised how few degrees of seperation I have from other random senior people, especially since I didn't spend my whole career in Silly Valley. Usually we have multiple common acquaintances.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
As a windows license victim forced to buy windows licenses, and never able to obtain my legal refund for the unused product I here by relinquish the money owed to me by Microsoft to the former employees.
Living in Chile
But no one ever said they treated their employee's evilly.
If you write in C like you write in English, no wonder Microsoft's products are so buggy!
Free Martian Whores!
...and if the payment was given to the (ex) employee via direct deposit, MS can very easily retract the deposit, and then issue a second one in the 'correct' amount. Or not. Overdraft after the retraction? Sorry, not our problem. That's part of the fine print of the direct deposit agreement. They can effectively make withdrawals too...
BTDT. I had a final paycheck retracted after they decided to re-calculate my vacation day balance and needed to subtract a day. Caused all sorts of havoc.
Perhaps, if you only want jobs in one small subsector. Or if you have a very specialized degree like aeronautical engineering (there's only so many places that make planes and plane parts). It's a pretty wide field out there for other degrees like CS or CompE- my last 3 jobs have been printer firmware, back end ecommerce web services, and mobile phone software. Not quite planning on leaving yet, but when I do my next job will have no relationship to any of those. It'd be boring doing the same thing for all of my life.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
I've found that moving around like that makes it too hard to get jobs above the "senior dev" level. For manager/team lead jobs companies seem to prefer those with many years domain experience, and above that level they insist on it. I've worked on a wide variety of products, but always as the expert in my problem domain.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I wouldn't take a manager job if you paid me (ok, I would, if it was 7 figures. Not for 6. Basically enough so I could retire in 2-3 years of it). I'd be utterly miserable. I'm a good dev and I enjoy development, you don't make enough extra money to put up with the politics and bullshit of a management job. But yes, if you want to climb the corporate ladder like that I could see it being useful. I'm just not sure how you can deal with the double boredom there- dealing with the same stuff for the next 30 years, plus the endless meetings and bullshit of management.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
It's always been the case Microsoft is asked for a refund. Look who is laughing now!
Now Microsoft is admitting their mistake and telling the workers they don't need to return the overpayment. Great way to handle this situation -- you don't recover the money you mistakenly overpaid, plus you still manage to shoot yourselves in the foot in public relations! I think MS needs to lay off a few more people -- namely those who screwed up the severance pay in the first place, plus those who made the Custer decision to ask for the overpayments back!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
We have definitely different experiences here. I worked for 11 different companies in the last decade, and many of them made mistakes, and aside for one shitty 1 man consulting firm ran in a basement, I was always paid back pronto, and usually, before I even noticed the mistake. Large corporations never failed in that regard.
This is why I do the technical track, not the management track. I've managed groups before, and it was indeed dull (and quite time consuming). The politics and bullshit doesn't bother me much (all it takes is realizing that the success of your career is only loosly coupled with making your current management happy), but I really don't like project management. Fortunately, even smaller companies in Silly Valley have a technical track for developers these days.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.