Apple Rejects Nine Inch Nails iPhone App

jarrettwold2002 writes "Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails announced via his Twitter account today, 'Apple rejects the NIN iPhone update because it contains objectionable content. The objectionable content referenced is "The Downward Spiral."' The initial NIN Access iPhone app garnered much fanfare (Wired article, Guardian article) and was approved by Apple. The update has been rejected due to an album reference. If Nine Inch Nails is having problems with censorship and approval what kind of problems are you having with the iPhone app approval process?"

Comments

Gee.

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at his Twitter feed, who woulda thought that Trent would be such a boring twit?

Oh, so THAT'S how it got its name.

Re:Gee.

[libkarl2]

Q: Who spends +mod points on AC trolls?

A: Sock puppet retards.

Re:Gee.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to also have a jab at top posting.

A: Sock puppet retards.

Q: Who spends +mod points on AC trolls?

Re:Gee.

[Anonymous Coward]

omg, so witty. who'd have thought someone would be clever enough to use sarcasm in comments?

iStroker

[ifeelswine]

does this mean that they're likely to reject my stroker port from the commodore 64? http://www.lemon64.com/?mainurl=http%3A//www.lemon64.com/reviews/view.php%3Fid%3D142

Re:iStroker

[CountOfJesusChristo]

And it's ideas like this that make you realize just how useful the accelerometer can be

Re:iStroker

[ifeelswine]

i was modded as a troll for pondering the disposition of the app i've been working on for 2 years -- as soon as i heard about the accelerometer i knew of a killer app. i have visions of tens of thousands of people shaking their iphones up and down... up and down... up and down.. and i started working. now i'm getting discouraged. should i just give up on my dream? go back to masturbating the old fashioned way? after all, my penis Just Works.

Apple's prerogative

[runlevelfour]

Hey if Apple wants to reject a killer app from one of the most popular contemporary artists I guess that is their prerogative. Pretty stupid effiing move, and I guess Trent will have to take his application (and devoted money spending fans) elsewhere I guess...

Re:Apple's prerogative

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell him to develop an app for the Android platform.

Re:Apple's prerogative

[pHus10n]

I'm not sure I would classify NIN as "Contemporary" in the same manner as say, Amy Grant :)

Re:Apple's prerogative

[Anonymous Coward]

... Or write his app for the #1 selling phone ?

The Blackberry Curve

TFA?

[LaskoVortex]

Which of those links has TFA in question? 140 bytes of twitter? A you tube video. WTF is so bad about "downward spiral"? I'd RTFA if there was one.

Re:TFA?

[mikesd81]

Yeah, I never saw the "much garnered" fanfare of the first app, so I wanted to see what it was about. I guess the Guardian and Wired links are about the first version of the app.

Re:TFA?

[kingturkey]

I'm guessing the problem with Downward Spiral is that it has the song "Closer" on it, which contains the lyrics "You let me penetrate you... You let me violate you" and "I want to fuck you like an animal"

Re:TFA?

[LaskoVortex]

I'm guessing the problem with Downward Spiral is that it has the song "Closer" on it, which contains the lyrics "You let me penetrate you... You let me violate you" and "I want to fuck you like an animal"

Before I perfected my skills as a Casanova, I tried to sing this song as a ballad to the object of my unrequited love. Needless to say, it didn't have the effect I hoped for.

Re:TFA?

[jrumney]

I thought so too, but then I looked up the lyrics for the title track, and thought it could just as easily be the song "The Downward Spiral" rather than the album which is being referenced.

Re:TFA?

[kingturkey]

Haha nice work. I have a friend whose ex-boyfriend told her the song "Choke Me, Spank Me (Pull My Hair)" reminded him of her. My favourite bit is:

I don't want to love, you
I just want to fuck, you
You should bring your friends, through
I'll fuck you and them, too

Re:TFA?

[Sebilrazen]

I actually find those words to be some of the least problematic. People make a big deal about Closer because it was on the radio.

My favorite offensive lyrics on the disc(s) are:

• held against your forehead,I'll make you suck it,maybe I'll put a hole in your head,you know, just for the fuck of it
• Basically all of Heresy(my favorite)

Re:TFA?

[Mr Z]

The whole album has lyrics and themes that justify a mature content label. It's not just "Closer." And don't forget, they actually played Closer on the radio.

Re:TFA?

[drinkypoo]

And don't forget, they actually played Closer on the radio.

Not really. They played some other song on the radio. I know it wasn't 'Closer' because the lyrics were different.

I wanna — you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I wanna — you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to —

Just doesn't have the same ring to it. But maybe you can't tell the difference?

Why do we consider an edited song to be the same song? When I hear edits, I change the station... to the USB stick plugged into my stereo. Reject edited music! Reject censorship! TURN OFF THAT RADIO. TURN OFF THAT BULLSHIT.

Re:TFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's probably the lyrics to "Closer" that they find objectionable: "I want to fuck you like an animal." Of course it mostly depends on the animal in question.

Confused!

[Vincent West]

Confused! Why would they ban the app because of a reference to his most famous album?

What the fuck

[Jrabbit05]

WTF is that shitty summary. "If Nine Inch Nails is having problems with censorship and approval what kind of problems are you having with the iPhone app approval process?" That's the entrance fee to the walled garden of the App Store for iphone/ipod. You trying to subvert apple is just another punch in the face. So they care more about the bigger/popular apps and how they fit their rules. That's kind of their job. It's not free stop expecting it to be.

Re:What the fuck

[Waffle Iron]

That's right.

iPhone : computer :: Disney World Main Street USA : real town

App Aproval? I'm still waiting for iPh

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting since April 14th just to be accepted into the iPhone developer program as a business developer. I've been a Mac user since 1985 but this is just about enough for me to say goodbye to the Apple. The more I hear about slow customer service and delayed payments to developers make me seriously consider not participating(if I ever am approved) in the App Store. I may just have to go with a mobile framework like Rhomobile's Rhodes.

Re:App Aproval? I'm still waiting for iPh

[Anonymous Coward]

that's odd. I signed up a few days after 3.0 beta was released (when they would have had a huge influx of sign ups) and got approved the next day. perhaps you should give them a call and see what the hold up is

No problems at all

[Anonymous Coward]

With jailbreaking it, I don't have problems at all. I can write my own programs using free software, upload them without paying $150 to access my own device, and share them with my friends. I can do a lot more than Apple would let me in their walled garden. The only question is how soon untill mainstream companies/groups like NIN release their promotional apps on the distribution channels for jailbroken iPhones.

Re:No problems at all

[The End Of Days]

It'll happen as soon as jailbroken phones stop being a niche market, so probably never.

Re:No problems at all

[Firehed]

Actually, last I checked, Qik is only available on jailbroken phones, and they're... I wouldn't say mainstream but large enough to at least make it noteworthy. In their case it's because they had to hack some sort of crude video functionality into the built-in camera which you can't do through Apple's APIs rather than censorship.

Re:No problems at all

[Anonymous Coward]

Another way to avoid problems with censorship is to buy and support devices that are not broken by design, or ones that are less broken by design. If there is demand for phones that function normally out of the box, then there will eventually be supply of such phones.

The question is how soon will other phone makers decide to let their best teams design a non-broken phone. And the ultimate test is if you can run any VoIP client with no extra fees, apart from the usual monthly fee and the usual data rate to the network provider company. Such VoIP clients would quickly be developed to be as good or better than the native phone app. Network providers would then eventually only be able to charge for network access and for data.

A more interesting question

[AnalPerfume]

Now Trent has publicly stated the reason for it's rejection, does that not break Apple's NDA rules on "don't talk about rejection"? Will Apple throw more PR petrol on themselves by fighting Trent with a lawsuit instead of trying to let the embers die out?

Is anyone really surprised with another Apple rejection on dubious grounds? Perhaps the real message is that Apple design their products for good church going people who would rather vote Democrat than see anything with a little adult content. The way I see it, is that there are a LOT more "adult" users who would rather have the choice of content, even if they wouldn't consume it themselves. This means that Apple are seemingly intentionally cutting themselves off from that spending power.

We complain rightly about government treating us like children, making our decisions for us with little right of reply, yet it seems if you stick a flashy interface on it and apply some PR brainwashing it's all good and dandy.

For the Apple fanbois, feel free to mod me down for speaking ill of the almighty......the power of Jobs compels thee.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

He wasn't really specific about the reason. He said it was because of inclusion of "The Downward Spiral". If he wanted to be more specific, he could have said it was because of the song "Closer", or to be even more specific, the lyric "I want to fuck you like an animal" (among others in that song that could be considered offensive by some uptight individuals in Cupertino).

Re:A more interesting question

[samkass]

Your first two sentences were interesting. The rest of your post was flamebait... what does voting Democrat and going to church have to do with this, and why is it "PR brainwashing" and why is anyone who disagrees with you an "Apple fanboi". IMHO, any post that uses the word "fanboi" should instantly be auto-modded flaimbait.

So anyway, if you're modded to -1 it won't be because you spoke ill of the almightly. To the contrary, it's very popular to bash Apple on Slashdot and your post will most likely NOT be modded flamebait even though it is. Enjoy your free karma.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

"Perhaps the real message is that Apple design their products for good church going people who would rather vote Democrat than see anything with a little adult content."

??? Uh... right, because there's nothing Republicans love more than adult content, or hate more than church going people. What color is the sky on your planet?

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Your first paragraph asks a very good question. I do wonder what will come of it.

The rest of your post danced a bit with the idea of substance, but ultimately was nothing but troll. Too bad, I think maybe you had something to say.

You've just gained a freak, so rejoice in that.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

I would not be surprised if large portions or the entirety of Apple's NDA for application developers is invalid within the state of California.

Re:A more interesting question

[paralaxcreations]

I have mod points, and was going to mod this down as flamebait for the last line, but found the rest of your post interesting/insightful...but felt it more appropriate to mention each - you don't seem to be at a shortage of modding on this post anyway ;)

Re:A more interesting question

[Daniel Dvorkin]

good church going people who would rather vote Democrat than see anything with a little adult content

Come on, at least get your stereotypes straight! It's good church-going Republicans who want to burn the vile pornographers and fornicators at the stake to please Jesus Christ Our Lord And Savior. Democrats hate porn because they're all secret Muslims who are paving the way for President Hussein's upcoming declaration of sharia law ... or because they're under the thrall of the Godless man-hating hairy-legged feminists, I can never remember which.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

Word.

Re:A more interesting question

[ieatcookies]

Now Trent has publicly stated the reason for it's rejection, does that not break Apple's NDA rules on "don't talk about rejection"? Will Apple throw more PR petrol on themselves by fighting Trent with a lawsuit instead of trying to let the embers die out? Is anyone really surprised with another Apple rejection on dubious grounds? Perhaps the real message is that Apple design their products for good church going people who would rather vote Democrat than see anything with a little adult content. The way I see it, is that there are a LOT more "adult" users who would rather have the choice of content, even if they wouldn't consume it themselves. This means that Apple are seemingly intentionally cutting themselves off from that spending power. We complain rightly about government treating us like children, making our decisions for us with little right of reply, yet it seems if you stick a flashy interface on it and apply some PR brainwashing it's all good and dandy. For the Apple fanbois, feel free to mod me down for speaking ill of the almighty......the power of Jobs compels thee.

Wasn't apple lambasted for allowing a "Baby Shaking" app into the App Store? What church going crowd appreciates that again?? Having just come off some publicity for being a little too liberal on their app approval I'm sure they're just knee jerking and Trent gets the shit-end of the stick.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

First, we're basing this off a vague message from the person whose app was rejected.

Assuming it was about the lyrics, there are two likely causes. The first is simply that the person doing the reviewing made a mistake. The second is that it's fallout from the baby shaking app getting released and then having the wrath of the politically correct police come down on them. The problem is that the PC brigade is hyper-vocal and they are good at getting media outlets to carry their stories, thus they're really good at shitting on other people's parades. The people reviewing apps for release almost certainly are now erring on the side rejecting too many apps for content. You can buy The Downward Spiral from iTunes, so it's not as though Apple has a general policy against explicit lyrics.

Apple's initial reasons for rejections were generally either "this copies our own software" or "you need to fix this and this and this", which are both terms I find acceptable (even though the first one is undesirable, especially to me as a full-time iPhone developer). With the exception of the app that charged thousands of dollars simply to show a picture, Apple has not been about censoring content (and that was one probably more about the high rate of returns). I think it's going to be a while before Apple comes to a reasonable solution to the baby shaking fallout, although the PC police have definitely tainted the App Store forever.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. It's Apple's gig, I guess they can use their own discretion. Anyone familiar with NIN's work knows that some of it is really, really extreme ('Broken' anyone? The film, not the album). I am a big believer in freedom of expression, and I don't fault someone for making their work, but it goes both ways: if you deal in extreme, unsettling material, you might have to accept that some people are going to take issue with it. Reznor CAN take it elsewhere if he wants, there are other options; given Apple's very public stance on things like porn on the iPhone, is this really a surprise?

Re:A more interesting question

[Man On Pink Corner]

Wasn't apple lambasted for allowing a "Baby Shaking" app into the App Store? What church going crowd appreciates that again??

The 54% of church-goers who approve of torture?

Re:A more interesting question

[Toonol]

??? Uh... right, because there's nothing Republicans love more than adult content, or hate more than church going people.

I generally vote Republican, and certainly love adult content and hate churches. I think I'm the only one, though.

Re:A more interesting question

[jamonterrell]

If we keep feeding the monsters, this is the kind of garbage we have to put up with. There are clearly enough of us that want to be able to buy a device and actually own it and be in control of it that we should be able to get what we want. We're pretty close with the android dev phone (not the one from t-mobile, it's still locked down). Now we just have to win over the networks so that we can actually use the damned thing. I'm holding out for a device that will work on a network that has 3g in my area (St Louis). Though I'm still annoyed with the whole 5GB limit on EVERY 3g plan. I have high hopes for 4g (WiMax/LTE) but I know I'll be disappointed. I have slightly higher hopes for WiMax because the ones pushing that aren't quite as deep in bed with the content providers... so it's a possibility that they'll only cap if the network requires it (which it likely will early on, but shouldn't after a few years). Though time warner has a big stake in clearwire now, so who knows.

Re:A more interesting question

[onefriedrice]

For the Apple fanbois, feel free to mod me down for speaking ill of the almighty......the power of Jobs compels thee.

Why would you get modded down? Putting up Steve Jobs in the supposed light of divinity as seen by "Apple fanbois" is a common, subtle straw man used to get modded up around here.

I'm guessing you already knew that.

Re:A more interesting question

[DarrenBaker]

There's quite a few more lyrics on that record that could be considered offensive... For example:

Heresy: "Your God is dead, and no one cares - and if there is a hell, I'll see you there"

Reptile: "She spreads herself wide open to let the insects in... Seeds from a thousand others drip down from within"

Then there's the fan favourite, "Big Man With a Gun", a song with lyrics so offensive and puerile that Trent Reznor himself said that he wished he'd left it off the album.

Re:A more interesting question

[stephanruby]

Is that song on iTunes?

Re:A more interesting question

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

He was saying that church going people who normally are strong republican voters would rather violate that preference than see any adult content. There was nothing wrong with the grammar or logic in that sentence, though a bit stereotypical in nature.

Re:A more interesting question

[AnalPerfume]

If it's simply a case of adult lyrics, mark the content as such and allow it. Let the people decide for themselves if they want adult content or not. They do already have an "explicit" tag in iTunes.

Re:A more interesting question

[tsa]

It seems like something a serial killer might think.

Re:A more interesting question

[Snocone]

This conservative mindset ... seem content to have all their censored for their own good

Indeed.

OK, let's put "The Greatest Nigger Jokes of All Time.app" up on the store and see how cool liberals are with it.

Oh, wait, the liberal mindset "like to live in a bubble where the real world does not enter" and "seem content to have all their censored for their own good" too?

Funny, that...

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

^fanboi

Re:A more interesting question

[yamiyasha]

First, we're basing this off a vague message from the person whose app was rejected. Assuming it was about the lyrics, there are two likely causes. The first is simply that the person doing the reviewing made a mistake. The second is that it's fallout from the baby shaking app getting released and then having the wrath of the politically correct police come down on them. The problem is that the PC brigade is hyper-vocal and they are good at getting media outlets to carry their stories, thus they're really good at shitting on other people's parades. The people reviewing apps for release almost certainly are now erring on the side rejecting too many apps for content. You can buy The Downward Spiral from iTunes, so it's not as though Apple has a general policy against explicit lyrics. Apple's initial reasons for rejections were generally either "this copies our own software" or "you need to fix this and this and this", which are both terms I find acceptable (even though the first one is undesirable, especially to me as a full-time iPhone developer). With the exception of the app that charged thousands of dollars simply to show a picture, Apple has not been about censoring content (and that was one probably more about the high rate of returns). I think it's going to be a while before Apple comes to a reasonable solution to the baby shaking fallout, although the PC police have definitely tainted the App Store forever.

Uh, They used this excuse to ban the South Park Studios Application to view clipped content way before NIN and baby shaker

Re:A more interesting question

[someonehasmyname]

Wow, I thought I was the only one!

Re:A more interesting question

[atraintocry]

It's really, really sad that in this country refraining from calling people niggers is a thing that automatically makes you a liberal.

Re:A more interesting question

[atraintocry]

Wait, Steve Jobs personally rejected the NIN app? Do you have evidence for that?

Re:A more interesting question

[Trahloc]

How is that surprising? Your talking about folks who threaten Hell left and right if you don't agree with them. Heck torture is mild compared to that.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

"...good church going people who would rather vote Democrat..."

Bwahahaha!

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, uncensored.

Re:A more interesting question

[AnalPerfume]

I dunno, I'd rather be sentenced to something non-existent than something which actually does exist.....and hurts.....a lot. Personally I want my coffin packed with marshmallows just in case I'm going somewhere with a lot of fire.

Re:A more interesting question

[shutdown -p now]

to be even more specific, the lyric "I want to fuck you like an animal" (among others in that song that could be considered offensive by some uptight individuals in Cupertino).

Considering Apple's reputation on such things, I bet they considered it offensive because of animal cruelty issues. ~

Re:A more interesting question

[funkatron]

Those aren't adult lyrics. They're teenage at best. Still brilliant tho.

Re:A more interesting question

[damburger]

I got a macbook pro without being a fanboy. I'd used macs because I worked in the print industry and someone offered to buy me a laptop, so I just went for an apple. I think apple are incapable of distinguishing between their fanboys and their user base. Shit like this is going to alienate casual apple users and they are going to dip down to 1% market share again.

Re:A more interesting question

[damburger]

No they can't. I know plenty of black people cringe at rap music for that very reason.

Re:A more interesting question

[infinitelink]

Church goers I know have moral objections to Apple, over, you'd be surprised, things like this. They often think of Apple as a stiffling, greedy, arrogant, lying, nasty little entity and often refuse to buy from it. I'm not saying this is always the case, nor dogmatized about, just saying that's a commonality among people I know and know of. On the other hand, having a company with some sense and having some ability to ensure things are made in such a way people would actually want to use them makes sense, see here for continued thought, http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1220281&cid=27805087

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

and isn't that a good thing...? Does anyone seriously doubt that apple make better mp3 players than computers anymore?

anyone that is apart from thick musos (logic) or video editors (FCP) both of which don't have any choice

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

"a song with lyrics so offensive and puerile that Trent Reznor himself said that he wished he'd left it off the album."

Oh, that's hilarious. It's so offensive that Reznor himself questioned including it, but "Big Man With a Gun" isn't labeled "explicit" in iTunes! WTF?

And it's not a question of The Downward Spiral alone. Most of Reznor's albums have at least one and sometimes a few tracks with pretty explicit/offensive lyrics.

Heh. I noticed "Starfuckers, Inc" isn't labeled "explicit" in iTunes either.

Re:A more interesting question

[Snocone]

It's really, really sad that in this country refraining from degrading women to objectified targets of men's lust, validating rape and violence against them, is a thing that automatically makes you a conservative

See? Keep going, friend, every stereotypical liberal piety like yours has a conservative counterpart.

Re:A more interesting question

[tepples]

It's really, really sad that in this country refraining from calling people niggers is a thing that automatically makes you a liberal.

Chris Rock explained that niggers are people who choose to underachieve. By far, not all black people are niggers.

Re:A more interesting question

[dwpro]

That is patently not true and it is a non sequitur from the argument presented. One on the other side could just as easily say "it's really,really sad that not wanting children to be bombarded by sex and foul language automatically makes you a conservative" and be equally as wrong.
 
Don't use these false dichotomies to rationalize your own viewpoint's shortcomings.

Re:A more interesting question

[maztuhblastah]

It's really, really sad that in this country refraining from calling people niggers is a thing that automatically makes you a liberal.

No, it's not just that many modern "liberals" abhor the use of racial slang. It's also that these "liberals" decide to attempt to punish those who use it. While libertarians tend to believe all speech, even if it is personally offensive, is protected speech, many modern "liberals" seem to believe in free speech only as long as it doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities.

I refrain from calling people "niggers", but I'm by no means a liberal -- at least not in the modern sense of the term. Of course I also would oppose the censorship of an app such as the parent poster described. Would I buy it? No. But that doesn't mean that censoring it is the right thing to do.

*That* is what the parent poster was playing at. (I think...)

Re:A more interesting question

[Eryq]

It's really, really sad that in this country refraining from degrading women to objectified targets of men's lust, validating rape and violence against them, is a thing that automatically makes you a conservative

Actually, refraining from degrading women and refusing to validate rape and violence against them automatically makes you a feminist.

It's the "freaking out about depictions of sex" that automatically makes you a conservative.

Nice try, though.

Re:A more interesting question

[ToasterMonkey]

Church goers I know have moral objections to Apple

I would say religion is bad for society here, but in its defense instead I'll say it's just a symptom of a much worse problem plaguing people's minds.

They often think of Apple as a stiffling, greedy, arrogant, lying, nasty little entity and often refuse to buy from it.

To continue this pattern, religion is a stifling, greedy (helping vs. spreading), arrogant, lying, nasty entity and I refuse to buy any of it. It's all true, but a very childish thing to make summary judgements based on a personification of something so complex. A person could easily be all those things, but something more complex could even easier be described as multiple things yet not all at once. Only a fool would argue all the above points as a whole, and those are still not valid reasons to ignore something that benefits other people in ways we cannot see, while not really affecting us. I understand this about religion, and your churchgoers should understand that in regard to corporations.

Re:A more interesting question

[Snocone]

Actually, I was more just mocking the self-righteous leftie view that THEIR censorship is uptight and evil, while OUR censorship is noble and justified.

Everyone's in favour of some level of censorship, after all. Or, if you claim you're not, how about an app that displayed pictures of children being raped? You cool with that up there on the store? Thought not. (Or, my congratulations if you are, very consistent principles indeed, but that makes you decidedly non-mainstream...)

Re:A more interesting question

[atraintocry]

For evidence of what I posted, look no further than the comment I replied to. He very clearly equated avoiding racial slurs with liberalism. You can't have it both ways. If people are going to turn everything into a political debate, then they need to be ok with the effects of that false dichotomy.

I wasn't equating conservatism with racism or anything as outlandish as that. I was saying that there is unfortunate connection in people's minds with empathy and liberalism, probably as a result of this need to draw party lines across every issue, combined with the conservative talk radio tradition of insulting anyone and everyone under the veneer of "telling it like it is."

You've really never heard the term "PC left?" How about "bleeding heart liberal?" Well, just so you know, they exist and are commonly used as insults here. Just like "feminazi" and "welfare queen." It's a non sequitur, sure. But are you really going to accuse little old me of being the originator? I'm just telling it like it is!

My viewpoint, FWIW, is that censorship is wrong in all cases. Also, that it is up to a store to decide what they want to sell, just as it is up to the individual to decide where to shop. It's only censorship when the government does it, or if the company in question is a monopoly. Apple is not.

What sort of language is foul depends on who's listening, and ear plugs are cheap, so this is a non-issue to me. But I'm happy to experience life unfiltered, so to speak.

Re:A more interesting question

[AnalPerfume]

So you can use other app stores with your iPhone? Developers have the choice of different outlets to sell their iPhone applications if Apple reject them? Does the iPhone need to be jail-broken to access these other stores? Have Apple suddenly decided to "live and let live" with the people who assist users to defy the Apple lock in to their revenue stream?

To my knowledge Apple have done everything possible technically (DRM) and legally (EULA) to ensure that NO competition to iTunes and the app store is available to Apple gadget users. This kinda defines "monopoly" to me. This also extends to the applications you are allowed to use to interact with the gadgets YOU own. Every time another software project finds a way around Apple's lock-in, Apple release an update and break it again.

Microsoft are rightly deemed to hold a monopoly in several areas, when they control more than say 85% of the market share. Does holding 100% of the market share suddenly trigger some hidden clause in the definition of "monopoly" which renders it non-applicable?

I'd be curious to hear of the alternative outlets iPhone users & developers have.....the ones Apple have not issued a C&D order too or are not currently in legal proceedings against.

Re:A more interesting question

[atraintocry]

Apple has a monopoly on iPhones, but it is a product that they developed, and that is how IP works. They do not have a monopoly on the cell phone market or the MID market, which are two of the most saturated spaces in the history of consumer electronics history.

The iPhone developers are generally crying out for more DRM, not less. They have plenty of platforms to choose from, but the iPhone user base is too large and tuned-in to pass up. And the closed nature of the platform is seen as a plus to many developers. They don't need your sympathy.

I like my devices and platforms open as well, and I'm happy to vote with my wallet. But I don't think Apple is any more wrong to close off their platform than, say, Nintendo. That is to say, maybe a little wrong, but it's their prerogative since they aren't breaking any laws and consumers are happy with it and know what they're getting.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like saying "I know I'll get modded down for this" is a golden ticket to +5 informative. I wish people with mod points would catch on and start modding down people who use that phrase.

Re:A more interesting question

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadder still that not only do some of my fellow conservatives assume I'm an angry bigot; they like me more because of it.

Re:A more interesting question

[atraintocry]

I should clarify: when I say makes I don't mean in the sense of creation or being, I mean it in the sense of being labeled as something. I can see why people got pissed off now. It was a bad choice of words.

Mistake on Apple's part

[rob1980]

I'm not really into NIN but I watched the Youtube video explaining what the app is. This is something Apple should be promoting because it does a pretty good job of taking advantage of the platform's capabilities - not suppressing because it contains a reference to a 15-year old album.

Re:Mistake on Apple's part

[m.ducharme]

I don't think the app contains "a reference" to the album, I think it contains the actual content of the album, explicit lyrics and all. If you pay attention to what the app is capable of, one of the big features is access to instant streaming video and audio, and there's a lot of it. We're not talking about 30 second teaser clips here. nin.com offers re-mixes, concert videos, maybe older videos done for mtv. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get all of The Downward Spiral in one form or other directly off the site (and therefore through the app).

Now I'm not in favour of censoring explicit lyrics, but unfortunately, many people in the US are so inclined, and many of those people purchase products from the Apple store. Presumably Apple is thinking of those people.

None at all.

[koterica]

"If Nine Inch Nails is having problems with censorship and approval what kind of problems are you having with the iPhone app approval process?"

None at all.

Why? Because I don't develop for the iPhone. Because I don't have an iPhone. I *think* OP is trying to troll, or start a debate, or seem insightful. Or something.

Also: a twitter entry does not, by itself, constitute a TFA

Re:None at all.

[onefriedrice]

I'm having a hard time reading your comment. It looks all... slanted.

Re:None at all.

[windsurfer619]

His is fine, but you and the rest of Slashdot are all crooked today

Re:None at all.

[koterica]

Absolutely. Its not like I missed a / in a tag somewhere.

Been waiting since April 14th

[kraln]

I've been waiting since April 14th for my latest application to be 'approved'. It's called iTakeCredit, and I submitted it around the time that those new appstore ads (with the credit card terminal) went live.

My page for it is here: http://www.soulstrewn.com/itakecredit

It's not that complex an application, and my games and other stuff have gone through in the past much more rapidly. This is getting to be just silly.

Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve...

[syousef]

Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve content. (In this case that means fuck Apple, which immediately means I get modded up and down until the fanboi zealots are the only ones modding and I end up with a -1).

We've seen open platforms dwindle in past years. PC gaming is in decline. Most consoles need all manner of hack and mod to run home brew content. Hell even GPS APIs (like TomToms) have been discontinued on newer models. We've gone from a society of tinkerers where the best idea wins to an increasingly IP law based profit model that stiffles innovation.

Hell I don't even understand why objectionable content needs to be censored like this. For the most part don't buy it if you're offended. For the truely heinous stuff like that shake a baby to death iPhone app that was in the news lately, existing laws should be brought to bear if applicable. ...and you know what? I say this knowing that I fucking can't stand NIN music. As far as I'm concerned the only thing close to being any good they ever did was Closer, and that sold more on novelty and shock factor (and as a shagging song) than anything else.

Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[DirtyCanuck]

TODAY, my GF called Apple support, it said call back in 15 mins and automatically hung up on her.

2 days ago we tried to get a replacement on an Ipod 8gb Nano and despite having an extra 59$ service plan we were told we had to go through apple. Apple informed us that shipping was 39$ Canadian plus 10$ for insurance.

Apple seems to want to turn its back on it's customers, even if they are gods like Trent Reznor.

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,
They do this because you, as a loyal Apple customer, will continue to request (and consume) big servings of shit when you continue to buy their products.

I have an iPhone (issued one at work) and they ain't all that, at least for me. Some nice features, pretty pictures, etc, etc, but the others in that very competitive market are catching up.

Boot Apple back to the 1% market share they deserve. Clearly, anything more than that and they can't handle the demand.

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[greyhueofdoubt]

Where did you buy the service plan? From the big box store where you bought the ipod? If so it sounds like you got ripped off. Unless I misunderstood you- if you buy applecare for any device, the device gets sent to apple for repair. They send you a box (free), you throw the ipod in it and mail it out, and in two or three days it comes back fixed. For free. Minus of course the $39 applecare fee (That is how much the real applecare fee costs for an ipod nano).

So to me it sounds like you bought a bogus 'service plan' that had nothing to do with apple and now of course apple is treating you like any random stranger off the street. To them, you bought a product but no service plan and now you're looking for service. Try taking your car in to the dealer for repairs after it's out of warranty.

-b

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[DirtyCanuck]

Ya the service plan was bought at Best Buy. I was not even dating the girl when it happened and used to work for them so I figured spending 38% of the unit cost on a service plan should warrant a new unit on the spot. The thing is defective why should she be out of a unit for weeks (months?). Clearly a money grab at both the retail and the distributor level. My big problem that was the manager lied to me about the policy which I called her out on and she weaseled into the background. Next time I go in there my phone will be recording everything. Bottom line both her and her sisters ipods have failed (scroll wheel is garbage, battery, freezing) that laptop she was gonna buy for 2 g's won't be coming from them, nor will anything ever again as long as she lives. I personally never liked Apple but couldn't relate as I never bought a product, but now I am convinced these guys are just as sleezy as anybody else.

Good Day.

P.S ya that laptop she is buying it's a PC (HP TX2) I hope jobs dies and stock drops and Apple scuttles back into the pile of shit it was birthed.

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>I hope jobs dies and stock drops and Apple scuttles back into the pile of shit it was birthed.

LOL. I don't really care either way- I sold my stock a year ago and bought a house with the earnings. Anyways, if Apple does go under, another company will fill its niche pretty quickly.

And for the record, my next purchase will be a small netbook, probably Asus.

-b

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[koko775]

I think you're looking to the wrong people. No offense, but Best Buy is the sleaziest computer store I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with. In contrast, I had an iPod where the scroll wheel would work about half the time. I brought it in to an AppleStore, and even though *I couldn't reproduce the bug*, they trusted me, and swapped it out for a refurbished iPod. Similarly, when my power adapter gave out after two years of constant abuse, I just scheduled an appointment, came in, and swapped it.

Take my anecdotes how you will, but Best Buy is the one with the record of cheating its customers, not Apple.

Re:Sounds similar to the trend with everything PR

[DirtyCanuck]

I live in Northern Ontario so the nearest Crapple Store is 450km away. And I work for a different retailer that rhymes with horse, and the policy is pretty much the same, first year you deal with apple, after that you deal with the store (granted you pay for a PSP). The employees should have an obligation to inform people of this, I in particular make a point of noting that if the Ipod becomes apple sauce then you have to deal with Apple. That way I don't have some pissed off customer thinking I ripped them off with a service plan. They still buy the service plan because it is cheaper then Best Buys.

RTFA...

[Anonymous Coward]

...oh wait, TFA only has a maximum length of 140 characters anyway, so why bother?

twatter n. chatter chopped into slices too small to be practically informative

Enough Already

[CSMatt]

I am sick and tired of articles like this, where the developing community has surrendered to Apple the rights to veto apps, for pretty much any reason, that they no doubt worked hard on, as well as giving Apple the ability to retroactively change their minds and kill apps on paying customer's phones. Why is is so acceptable for Apple to do this, when it clearly is not acceptable in the PC* world? Why do developers put up with this kind of draconian control by a third party over their own apps?

I for one can't stand it. To all developers of the iPhone, please stop developing for the iPhone. Hit Apple where it really hurts and develop for Android (not on the Market), the Freerunner, or pretty much any other platform instead, where you don't have to appease some entity that really needs you more than you need it. Don't just make an app that needs jailbreaking, as this still targets the iPhone and consequently still gives Apple more revenue and more power to control developers. If Apple insists on this kind of control, let them get their comeuppance.

*Note by "PC" I mean microcomputers, not Windows machines.

Re:Enough Already

[SensitiveMale]

"Why do developers put up with this kind of draconian control by a third party over their own apps?"

Because iFart apps make people millionaires. Because some teenager can whip up a limited app that looks cool and fills a very specific niche and generate hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The is an absolute shitload of money to be made with apps on the iphone and shitloads of people are making that money.

Re:Enough Already

[kraln]

Maybe if those other platforms you mentioned had sdks and documentation nearly as nice. I've developed for blackberry, and for android, and it's a crapshoot.

Re:Enough Already

[chonglibloodsport]

It's simply, really. A few of the developers who do play ball with Apple tend to make a shitload of money. Everyone else sees that and scrambles to cash in.

People are willing to abandon far more important causes in exchange for money, why expect anything different here?

Re:Enough Already

[ducomputergeek]

Currently iPhone accounts for 73% of our mobile hits followed by Windows Mobile and Blackberry with about 12 percent each. We've registered a grand total of 4 hits from android phones. We see about 600 unique mobile visitors per day.

If we had a lot of people using Android, we'd develop for it. But so far, it's available from one carrier, that doesn't even compete in our local market.

Re:Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is is so acceptable for Apple to do this, when it clearly is not acceptable in the PC* world?

Because the PC world belongs to everybody and nobody at the same time, while the Apple world belongs to Apple. Just like the Nintendo world belongs to Nintendo and so on.

What amuses me most, and I say this as the owner of both a PC and an iMac, is the "Think Different" slogan. Yeah right, as long as "Different" fits rigidly inside of what Steve thinks is kosher. Does anyone remember that 1984 Mac commercial? Apple has turned into the totalitarian monster they were supposed to be the answer to. A small (by percentages) totalitarian monster, a really cool totalitarian monster, but totalitarian nevertheless.

Think Different My Ass.

Re:Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the problem: The iPhone is the most attractive, lucrative platform I can find for me as an independent developer. Millions of users with the willingness to shell out cash. The platform itself is limited - meaning most traditional apps won't directly port - and uses Obj-C, which is a nice OO language I know and most others have to learn. The App Store provides an easy means for releasing software with no-fuss protection against illegal copying, which is important to me as both a developer and a customer. (I do wish they'd improve their searching and such, but hopefully with time.)

What's more, I love my iPhone. Love, love, love it. I started writing for it because it's a really solid, powerful platform for the things I want. I watched the Google demo vid for Android and I wasn't impressed; similar features, but more awkward and uglier. If I'm not a fan of something, there's got to be a compelling business case for me to develop for it. I don't see that with Android at this point in time, though I'm more than willing to have people cite articles comparing its market with the iPhone's.

The openness of Android is a major failing point as far as attracting me as a developer. Given the choice between a platform that's open to anyone and one that has some hurdles I know pass but others won't, I think I'll take the one with the small hurdles. Why would I want more competitors? I'm trying to make a living here and, frankly, Free Software doesn't mean as much to me as getting paid for my work -- or even as much to me as enjoying the platform I write for. Another problem is the people who are major proponents of Free Software also tend to go with free software or get illegal copies of non-free software. Maybe that's not as applicable to cell phones, but I suspect the spending habits of Android customers are probably not as rewarding as those of iPhone customers.

Really, though, feel free to point me towards articles comparing the markets for Android or other open platforms' applications in comparison with the iPhone app market. If I saw real opportunity, I'd be willing to go with a platform I don't like as much -- or at least port the code over.

Re:Enough Already

[AnalPerfume]

While Android is irrelevant right now in terms of user base, remember that it's still a very new project and is still building mass. Give it a couple of years, when several phone manufacturers have Android OS on their models and in most stores. At that point the iPhone balance will be seriously cut back. The more Apple restrict while Android is open, the more it will turn some people towards Android. Some will always stick to Apple, that will only change if Apple go bankrupt.

Re:Enough Already

[Vitriolix]

This is such a farce, you need to read a little deeper than the glossy "gold rush" articles. there have been a very *small* number of people who got lucky and struck it rich, but as in all gold rushes, there are now so many people trying to get theirs, that the app store has become a wasteland clusterfuck of shitty me2 apps. Now, like everywhere else in life, you have to a) have a good application b) have good marketing c) have some luck to make money with iphone apps.

Re:Enough Already

[shutdown -p now]

Maybe if those other platforms you mentioned had sdks and documentation nearly as nice. I've developed for blackberry, and for android, and it's a crapshoot.

How about Windows Mobile?

Re:Enough Already

[dunkelfalke]

Actually, developing for Windows Mobile is nice. You have the option of using C, VB, .NET compact and also open source development kits like Lazarus.

Re:Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this a troll? Because I prefer the iPhone to Android, but I'm open to the possibility of developing for Android (or what-have-you) if someone can show me the business case for it?

Re:Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

WinMob needs a userbase... what version are they on?

WinMob needs a unified delivery system.

Re:Enough Already

[IamTheRealMike]

Interestingly, it does exist in the PC world ... on Linux.

-- signed, guy who had his LGPLd software rejected from the ubuntu repositories because it did not align with their technical goals

Re:Enough Already

[infinitelink]

On the other hand, I've seen very few nerds (read, programmers) that have any sense of what people, rather than machines, want and think like: seriously. Even the ones who know this weakness often still don't get why in general people don't want to think in heuristics, developing artificial machine-like "perfectly logical" language. I know CEOs who hire people who understand technology and people, who are good communicators, but strive to ensure they're not developers, just to smack their developers and say "stop trying to do ten things, JUST MAKE A FRICKIN' BUTTON". These types find devs to be idiots with people, with little common sense about things like interfaces; not everyone is technical: Slashdot's community hates MS, perhaps, but all those I know do everything they desperately can to avoid things like Linux like the plague: it's ugly, backwards, unusable, the user-friendly version (/Ubuntus) are now buggy and becoming just as slow as MS anyways (and why aren't there any linuxes as functional, with GUIs, and easy to use, demanding as much or little hardware, and as fast as Win 2000? In general people LOVE Win 2000 still). The FOSS community just doesn't have a frickin' clue, and those who try leading it who do...are non grata. FOSS's idea of computer freedom is code--Joe the Plumber's is "click the .exe, don't have anything to worry about regarding a config file or fixing the stupidly obvious should-be-there bug due to some left-out lib or broken API, DRM, whatever, (not even understanding those terms), and get to work unimpeded with a familar interface and workflow". That's why people pay exhorbitant fees for MS Office: with integration they get *#)* done; that's why they pay the way they do for Adobe, for...you name it on PCs. Like the recent commentator somewhere one here "why would you want vendor lock-in" which someone pointed-out "when you use FOSS you're still relying on somebody", and in a sense you're locked-in: if you haven't spent years learning code, who gives if it's FOSS? Last time I checked FOSS is no more likely or reliable to fix problems and bugs anyways--they're not purviewed to devs working on the next iteration of the spinny cube.

And you know what? I use Linux: *buntu user for years. Have liked it, but it's starting to get waaay too time-consuming to coax the dang box into working with it. More regressions, even slower, no quality controls...I also met one of the former *buntu loco team heads, a programmer, and he quit the promotory efforts: "they're idiots, they don't get it 'just needs to work'", at least the nerds he was involved with: guys like Mark seem to understand--but the devs are another story. Why is it, for instance, that when NTFS is shut-down improperly either on MS or Linux so that Linux says "it's locked, I refuse to do anything", that the devs don't go (like the rest of us), "well duh, use the built-in FUSE to change the affected variable". Do they even think they should actually do the work of making the system fix its crap? NOOOOO. Everyone knows the answer will be "boot into Windows and shut-down the device properly". What if I'm not using Windows, I'm using Linux, and the external HD, to be compatible, has NTFS for portability, Hmm??? This and a billion other things are, just, just obvious: and one knows this when they have a bunch of specifically written-up error messages addressing these kinds of things. If you have a specific error message for some problem that's obviously something you should fix, you're not doing a very good job. Anyway, except for the language, the Linux Hater's blog is recommended to all: sadly the Linux community takes a look and laughs at it, "great criticism", then ignores it...

Re:Enough Already

[shutdown -p now]

WinMob needs a userbase

You're kidding, right? WinMo is 2nd largest in terms of worldwide marketshare, after Symbian.

WinMob needs a unified delivery system.

Yup, and it's here, today.

Re:Enough Already

[AnalPerfume]

I know, you shouldn't feed the trolls, but I'll bite for now.....

"when you use FOSS you're still relying on somebody", and in a sense you're locked-in: if you haven't spent years learning code, who gives if it's FOSS?"

If the maintainer decides not to do it anymore, that person you're relying on vanishes. If you're not a programmer you're screwed right? Wrong. You can hire someone to work on that code if it's vital to your business. Chances are that most mature FOSS projects will have plenty of transient developers so that will never be an issue.

"FOSS's idea of computer freedom is code--Joe the Plumber's is "click the .exe"

Yep, click the .exe to enroll in our botnet.....in fact, we'll use a dipshit filter on your OS to make it even easier and click it for you, can't say fairer than that can we?

"I use Linux: *buntu user for years. Have liked it, but it's starting to get waaay too time-consuming to coax the dang box into working with it."

"why aren't there any linuxes as functional, with GUIs, and easy to use, demanding as much or little hardware, and as fast as Win 2000?"

Maybe it's time you upgraded it, or better yet.....wipe it and do a fresh install. If Ubuntu is getting slow (I sympathize btw) then extend beyond the poster child and learn how to be leaner. Plenty of distros cater to just that, by leaving out stuff you don't need it will be faster and snappier. You've been running it for "years", you should have learned something by now. Since you're trolling for suggestions (you're not really but since I said I'd play along it only seems fair) try Wolvix, Puppy, DSL, Debian, Slitaz etc for fast lightweight distros. All it needs is eyes, a few blank CDs and some patience and you'll find them.

Incidentally, why are we comparing OS's you can't buy now? Where can you buy Windows 2000? Where can you buy XP for that matter? Sure if Microsoft feels your company are in danger of switching to a malware free platform they'll allow you to spend extra to get Vista downgraded to XP but it still counts as Vista. A fair comparison should be on OS's you can get NOW.

A FOSS project / OS lives while people are willing to code for and use it, proprietary projects die when the vendor decides they die.

The concept of "just works" is an illusion. You're gonna have issue no matter what OS you use. Apple do have less excuses in that they control both the hardware AND the software, so when it don't work you have incompetence. Both Windows and Linux have to deal with a HUGE range of hardware. When the vendors decide to abandon some hardware in Windows, the FOSS / *nix open source version of the driver lives on, which means it's gonna be working in Linux, not in Windows. This is against the backdrop of vendors intentionally trying to lock Linux out (often at Microsoft's bidding) or just staying VERY proprietary and forcing the Linux device driver coders to reverse engineer everything, where the Windows drivers are done in-house by the same people who make the device.....and often their drivers are buggy as hell, despite the advantage they have.

Apple control EVERYTHING, their revenue stream is all about giving you a seamless experience as long as you buy ALL Apple products and use them in a way they see fit to their revenue stream. Try using non-Apple products on an Apple, see how it "just works". Try using Apple products outside OSX, see how that also "just works".

Final thoughts.....have you submitted bug reports of your issues? I'm guessing not.

Re:Enough Already

[AnalPerfume]

Technical goals are not licensing goals, yet the implication is that it was the choice of license that got it rejected.

Re:Enough Already

[Wulfstan]

I don't believe a word of it. Generally speaking the only way that WinMo could be calculated as second largest worldwide is on some perversion of "shipping devices" - just because there are 50 devices available which run WM doesn't mean anyone is buying them. RIM is the second largest smartphone platform and if Apple isn't now third (ahead of Windows Mobile) I'll eat my hat.

This may have been true some time early in 2008 but I call bollocks on this.

Re:Enough Already

[blackest_k]

Your NTFS comment really shows a lack of understanding on your part.

Windows has a flag which basically says I need to check this, Linux see's this flag and says Windows needs to check this and tells the user. Now you have been warned by Linux that Windows thinks there is a potentially a problem with this disk. You the user can as root force Linux to ignore this warning and mount the drive anyway, and it gives you the instruction you must issue to have this occur.

Now you have made a deliberate choice to mount this drive and should be clear that the only safe actions would be treating the disk as read only.

NTFS isn't an open format its been reverse engineered, reverse engineering the drive checking routines is perhaps a work in progress. Now Microsoft has all the necessary information about NTFS to create a file system check for NTFS that works from Linux, well maybe, because they don't have any control over the Linux environment, so the best and safest solution Microsoft can give is mount the drive in Windows.

So while you can mount NTFS with this flag raised , you do so at your own risk if you lose data it's your fault and nobody elses. If you want this drive safe and valid you can do two things, if you dual boot, boot windows, or as you say this is a portable drive presumably USB connected you could boot a windows image in virtualbox and pass the physical drive to the guest windows install (2000 makes a great guest os). you might even reserve a small fat32 partition on the drive for holding the windows image.

You could share a drive with a different format Fat32, ext2/3 or even hfs+ or just accept that 5 minutes spent booting windows and shutting it down again is better than a reverse engineered validation program running on Linux, why would someone bother writing such a thing? your free to develop such a thing yourself you have as much access to the resources you would need (outside of Microsoft) as anyone else.

 

Re:Enough Already

[greyhueofdoubt]

Yeah, and don't have kids until we have 100% of birth defects figured out. Don't buy a car until it's 100% safe. Don't work for ANY company, since they all have some skeleton in their closet. Don't vote for any popular politician, since they're all shills. Etc.

Face it, the iPhone is an insanely popular platform *despite or because of* Apple's meddling. It's impossible to say. And it's a private company, so it doesn't work for you to compare Apple to the PC market unless you only talk about Windows and other for-profit OSes.

Or in other words, I don't think you should bash development on the iPhone until the simplest game on the iPhone isn't light-years ahead of open source games in polish and functionality. I'm talking real free open source games, not Quake for linux.

-b

Re:Enough Already

[shutdown -p now]

I don't believe a word of it. Generally speaking the only way that WinMo could be calculated as second largest worldwide is on some perversion of "shipping devices" - just because there are 50 devices available which run WM doesn't mean anyone is buying them. RIM is the second largest smartphone platform and if Apple isn't now third (ahead of Windows Mobile) I'll eat my hat.

Your main mistake is that you only consider the U.S. / North American market, not worldwide. iPhone wasn't exactly a raging success outside of U.S., and it outright flopped in many regions (e.g. in Russia, where I've seen more HTC Touch than iPhones).

Re:Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

or how about this-- SHUT THE FUCK UP. stop speaking for all of the developers, stop imploring them to do anything. developers know full well what they're getting into when they join the development program and submit their app. THE DEVELOPERS CHOOSE THE POISON, no one force feeds it. in conclusion, you're a neck-beard.

Re:Enough Already

[mjwx]

Your main mistake is that you only consider the U.S. / North American market, not worldwide. iPhone wasn't exactly a raging success outside of U.S., and it outright flopped in many regions (e.g. in Russia, where I've seen more HTC Touch than iPhones).

True, Asia however is the best yardstick. Asia is the largest consumer of mobile devices, Japan especially and right now NT&T is having to give away iphones to get rid of them. To the Japanese the iphone is slow (capped at 3 Mbit) and crippled as it requires a computer to be utilised fully and many Japanese use mobile phones as their main computer. This is a trend that is following throughout Asia (Korea, Singapore, Malaysia and so on as we go down the economic ladder of Asia). On my trip to Thailand in February I see plenty of people with N series Nokia's but almost no iphones despite the iphone being available in Thailand since its release (albeit not legitimately).

Re:Enough Already

[Wulfstan]

Japan is doing fine with the iPhone - not a runaway success but the articles claiming that it was failing there were exposed as wrong. The Japanese love things Apple.

Regarding Thailand, there's a good reason the iPhone isn't popular there - I don't believe it has Thai language support.

Re:Enough Already

[mjwx]

Japan is doing fine with the iPhone

Not really fine enough, NT&T cant sell them so they've been forced to give them away (I.E. take a loss on them). Australian Telco's took a serious loss on the iphone, but this is mainly because the Telco's made a deal with apple that fixed the prices and gave them razor thin margins, then the mining boom ended and the AUD lost 20-30% of its value and they couldn't renegotiate the price of the unit nor reneg on their advertised prices. That and the advertising didn't bring in expected sales numbers, Optus who sold 60-80% of Australian Iphones depending on who you believe took a loss of A$44 Million due to the iphone and that's with the iphone customers paying more for the subscriptions then non-iphone customers.

Re:Enough Already

[drinkypoo]

-- signed, guy who had his LGPLd software rejected from the ubuntu repositories because it did not align with their technical goals

Ubuntu provides functionality for you to put their software into a PPA without cost to you. I have packages for micropolis, qgtkstyle, and gpointingdevicesettings in mine, rather than my own software, since I don't write any. If the Ubuntu USERS want your package, then it will make it into Ubuntu. If you can get Debian to take your package, that will also get it into Ubuntu. (With that said, the owner of the bug for "package gpointing-device-settings" hasn't bothered to notice that I've packaged it... whatever.)

Re:I own a record store.

[Kotoku]

If I had mod points I'd mark you a troll. You put a lot of effort into that if it's not just copypasta. Nice OC though, the world deserves to see it. I suppose I might give you a +5 funny instead. ;)

New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[TiggertheMad]

I guess Trent will have to take his application (and devoted money spending fans) elsewhere I guess...

Or he will write a song about Apple. Knowing Trent's material, Apple better hope he just moves on, because I doubt they will want to license it for a commercial...

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[Anonymous Coward]

No problem. Microsoft will.

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[MsGeek]

Trent Reznor has been a Mac user and evangelist for the better part of two decades.

His use of Macs go back to "Pretty Hate Machine" and an old Mac Plus.

"I made Pretty Hate Machine using a Mac Plus, an Emax keyboard and a Mini Moog," says Reznor. "That set up was cool because it was so limiting that it forced you to get the most out of what you had to work with. It was just basic MIDI, with no digital audio. But I knew the three pieces of gear I had inside and out."

And now they've pissed him off. Bad idea. Steve, get well soon so you can bitchslap whoever made this boneheaded decision.

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[amRadioHed]

He didn't already write a song about Apple? I wonder what "Happiness in Slavery" is really about then.

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[Xtravar]

It's about my job as a software developer.

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[telax]

.. with Microsoft Songsmith.

Re:New NIN single: Steve f*ckers, Inc.

[Anonymous Coward]

nah - that's about his record deal with interscope or whoever it was. the whole of 'broken' is :)

Re:I own a record store.

[enrgeeman]

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that troll was a copy/paste from around a year ago. It stopped being used, and I was somewhat surprised to see it again. Some trolls are like that, I just wish more would stop being used so often.

Re:I own a record store.

[Mike Savior]

Oh boy, the one day I wish I had mod points to use.

Why not block it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, the "Downward Spiral" is with the morals of the average American. Good for Apple, it's one step towards morality...unfortunately, we've got millions more to go...

They rejected my app

[Anonymous Coward]

iGoatse. I'm not really sure why. Once I had submitted it, it was like my application disappeared into a black hole, and I had to do a lot of digging to find out where it had disappeared to. Apple needs to pull their head out of their ass.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck any platform ...

... like an animal?

No censorship on andriod.

[headhot]

I wouldn't mind having the app on my gphone.

Re:I own a record store.

[MeatBag PussRocket]

... and get off my lawn! seriously though, i'm all for folks like you trying to make a profitable business but frankly, you (and the rest of the industry) need a better business model. let me make analogy from your time period you're selling horses and but steve jobs is really henrey ford, and itunes? well, you can call that the assembly line. what you offer is obsolete.

should artists get paid for what they do? sure, but everyone wants to eliminate the middleman. if you cant find a good reason for people to buy CD's rather than download music (legally or otherwise) you need to stop being a middleman- produce something. the industrial revolution left a lot of people crying the same sob story you are.

sure you can argue that digital distribution is often illegal, but frankly the law is whatever people make it. the law in this case actually makes it harder on the artist. if the lawmakers werent at the beck and call of their corporate constituents the whole RIAA DRM crap would be ancient history, much like retail CD stores. now i know that last sentence may look kinda "conspiracy theory" but truthfully, someday the law will represent the will of the majority and when it does, artists will make music, put it on the tubes and i'll buy it directly from the artist and the RIAA, the record label, and you, will all be unemployed. so do yourself a favor, like i said before, go do something productive, dont be a middleman.

Re:I own a record store.

[CSMatt]

I bought the store about 12 years ago. It was one of those boutique record stores that sell obscure, independent releases that no-one listens to, not even the people that buy them. I decided that to grow the business I'd need to aim for a different demographic, the family market. My store specialised in family music - stuff that the whole family could listen to. I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of.

When they came to the counter to make their purchase, I grabbed the little shit by his shirt. "So...you're going to copy this to your friends over The Internet, punk?" I asked him in my best Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry voice.

"Uh y-yeh." He mumbled, shocked.

"That's it. What's your name? You're blacklisted. Now take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store - and don't come back." I barked. Cravenly, they complied and scampered off.

Great job. Your physically forceful demeanor and choice of words just single-handedly destroyed your business in ways that the Internet never could.

Explicit Content

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me, or is this very same album available on the iTunes music store? How is it that you'll be rejected on the App Store for referencing an album you can buy on the Music Store?

Re:Explicit Content

[Allicorn]

Left hand... meet right hand.

Common scenario when your thumbs are stuck in a wide variety of pies.

Re:Explicit Content

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not strange that it's rejected on the App Store, but available on iTunes. It is rejected _because_ it's available on iTunes. Apple gets a much bigger cut of the iTunes sales.

Re:Explicit Content

[R3d M3rcury]

Simple:

If you look at the album in iTunes, you will see certain tracks marked as "explicit." At the moment, Apps cannot be marked as "Explicit."

If you look at iTunes preferences, you will see that it is possible to block downloading music with explicit lyrics. However, it is not currently possible to block downloading applications which link to music with explicit lyrics.

Will apple starting filtering porn next?

[erroneus]

Will your next update to OSX on your laptop scan your drives for porn and then delete it?

The iPhone is "your gear" and they are making judgement about the appropriateness of the content that you, personally, would like to have on it.

Nice move Apple, ya bunch of Nazis.

Just more proof...

[Ogre332]

that no matter how hard Apple argues it, they're just as bad as Microsoft.

Re:Just more proof...

[perryizgr8]

can you tell me one place where ms rejected apps developed for winmo or windows?
right, you can't, because ms never tried to control the market as tightly as apple want to.

Re:Just more proof...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll show you one when show me pornography sold through Microsoft's online store.

Re:Just more proof...

[atraintocry]

On the other hand, I don't know of any Apple analogues to the Halloween documents. Everyone's evil in their own special way, I guess.

Re:Just more proof...

[atraintocry]

Yes but can't you install software without going to through the store? I'm not really sure since I've never had a WinMo device but I was under the impression that the store was a brand new thing designed to compete with Apple's setup.

Re:Just more proof...

[dunkelfalke]

There is a Microsoft store for Windows Mobile apps now?
I had Windows Mobile devices for years, but never heard of that one - always downloaded WM apps from the author's sites or WM app sites.

Re:Just more proof...

[Anonymous Coward]

that no matter how hard Apple argues it, they're worse than Microsoft.

FTFY

Re:Just more proof...

[jcnnghm]

They're worse. I've never had to wait for weeks to be given the privilege to develop software on a cellphone that I own. I can't speak to the application approval process, since I've been waiting for weeks just to get my developer account approved. It's absolutely pathetic.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[Anonymous Coward]

For the truely heinous stuff like that shake a baby to death iPhone app that was in the news lately, existing laws should be brought to bear if applicable.

As far as I know, there aren't any laws that would apply. Nor should there be-- it's a pretty slippery slope from "egad! this is a baby-killing trainer" to "egad! Quake is a Columbine trainer"... ...and honestly, aside from satisfying some darkly twisted sense of humor (although I've seen far worse from Spike and Mike), is anyone REALLY going to confuse an iphone with an actual baby? ...and if they have an real-life psychopathic inclination to shake babies, I'd rather see them work it out on a accelerometer.

Apple has every right to remove it from their store. Which is why I exercised my right and bought a G1. Cupcake is awesome, btw.

So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

iTunes sells Trent Reznors Music but wont distribute his App?

HUH?

Shouldnt Apple be giving the big "DUH" on this. What the fuck is Apple thinking?

I thought Apple was the "artist" friendly computer platform. You know that image they try to sell us on, using that hip "Mac guy"...

BEGIN SCENE

MAC GUY: "Hey PC, I'm a MAC, I dress like an artist, but really I'm just another fake image driven sock puppet for an evil corporation"

PC GUY: "Boy, I sure know how what it feels"

FADE TO WHITE

Apple.. Think What We Allow You To.

END SCENE.

Apple really has changed over the years. Its a very snobby platform for so called "artists". I find it histerical when I see college students thinking they MUST get a MAC if they will ever be an artist. Its just embarrasing. As if a platform makes you talented... If only it were that easy.

Image is everything, and Apple really needs to change direction and stop censoring song titles on itunes, and stop censoring applications. Simply have parenting mode settings in Itunes. Thats all you need. Let the parent decide what is right for their children. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY... Let us ADULTS choose what is right for us.

Oh and btw to you snobby college students that think you're artists because you just bought a Mac. You're wrong :) 95% of todays blockbuster films are made with windows pcs and linux pcs running various kinds of special fx software. Photography is done on both platforms but windows users out number mac users by a far.

Music? Sure... Protools for the Mac... of course! No wait... How about Nuendo for the PC? :) Far better.

Final Cut? ok you got us. :P

Hey will still have avid though... and the entire 3d animation industry.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Swizec]

Oh and btw to you snobby college students that think you're artists because you just bought a Mac.

I bought a Mac because at the time it was the most powerful machine packed into the thinnest and lightest package (so it fits in my backpack nicely) with the longest batter span.

That was two years ago. Nowadays I'd buy a Mac because having dropped it a lot I've come to appreciate the aluminium case and I do believe it's still the best battery life for a laptop with a graphics card that has its own memory ... plus the touchpads are just bloody awesome.

Art has nothing to do with it, it's just a better (portable) computer

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[atraintocry]

Artist friendly because originally the best software for art & music ran on Macs first. Or Amigas, for that matter. Obviously that stopped being the case by the time XP came out, since PCs had caught up in terms of hardware and the Windows audience was over 90% and certainly not worth ignoring.

But you know that Pro Tools is released for PC as well, right? And that Adobe, as well as everyone else, treats the platforms more or less equally these days?

These are platforms that people get actual work on, this isn't XBox vs. Wii vs. PS3. You're not on SomeRandomGameNewsForum. And your only experience of Macs seems to be their TV ads. Seriously, get that teenage pissing contest shit out of here.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then that makes you the smart buyer, theres nothing wrong with macs, (I personally think they are great laptops, just massively overpriced), what the parent was attacking is these stupid college students motivation for buying a macbook over another laptop.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I agree.. I was alive and lived through it :)

I just have this ridiculous hang up about when i see no talent hacks who think their computer makes them an artist. They always fail to realize that a Mac is an intel PC now. Its silly.

Adobe actually doesnt treat the platforms equally. Adobe yanked premiere pro from Mac because Final Cut is kicking their ass.

I like Macs... beleive it or not :) I JUST HATE when i run into snobby kids who think you're a caveman for using a PC.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[atraintocry]

I was a bit too hard on you and I apologize.

But I still think you're falsely associating the product with who it's marketed to.

I have a MacBook Pro and I have Logic Pro and Adobe Creative Suite. The Adobe stuff I use in my job. But before I had a Mac I was using Cool Edit Pro for my music needs and the same Adobe products on Windows.

Adobe and Apple do have a sort of back-and-forth relationship AFAIK but CS is released on similar schedules for Windows and Mac platforms. I'm sure Premiere makes them some money but I have to believe that Photoshop and Illustrator are their bread and butter.

Also I used to go to college and I was always pretty normal. And at the time I had an AMD with Windows & Linux. I have been around a lot of computer platforms met a lot of people and I can't say I've discovered any correlation between the system and the type of person who uses it.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Pro Tools is more stable and handles multiple audio interfaces very well on Mac OS X, however systems such as Avid Unity just do not work on a Mac. It's a difficult one to judge which is best if your a large production house.

Final Cut, it's cheap, but boy is it unstable and clunky. Give me my Avid Symphony with Pro Tools HD 2 any day. Just do not get me started on how file managements sucks with Final Cut.

Do not forget Logic Studio 8. A good contender for music production. If only Apple sorted out Final Cut, and then made them work together like Pro Tools and Avid.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[drinkypoo]

Apple really has changed over the years. Its a very snobby platform for so called "artists".

What, are you New?

I remember when my mom got her Mac IIci... 24MB or so RAM, 80MB disk, two page mono display. She knew an Apple employee so she got this machine for a mere five thousand dollars. MSRP on all that shit was over eight thousand. Building a comparable PC? About four thousand. To be fair, at the time it was Windows NT or WfW 3.11 and either way neither Photoshop nor Pagemaker could be counted on to run for more than a few minutes at a time... But if you think that being a snobby platform for so-called artists is a change you need to start thinking harder.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[drinkypoo]

Nowadays I'd buy a Mac because having dropped it a lot I've come to appreciate the aluminium case and I do believe it's still the best battery life for a laptop with a graphics card that has its own memory

Nope. A MacBook is now a bog-standard Centrino PC with EFI booting. It differs from the PC offerings only in the case department.

It's especially pathetic that Apple can't seem to bring out a Quad-Core MBP; A Q9000 has only 2W more TDP than chips they've actually put in them. I figure sooner or later they'll bring out a quad laptop and claim that it was just never time to do it before, in spite of all the PC manufacturers successfully building them.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[drinkypoo]

Obviously that stopped being the case by the time XP came out,

Actually NT4 was more or less the time when you'd have less crashes running Adobe stuff on Windows than on MacOS. I know because I was there doing it :P

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I agree with what you're saying except for the experience in college ;P

I see it all the time. Not in college tho. i'm 32 now, and have worked professionally in NY since i was 20 (and i've been doing graphics since the commodore 64, apple 2e, first mac etc. I have run into my share of "newbie kids" who are just getting into art that ask me for advice and turn around and say "and you dont use a Mac?". A lot of people fail to realize that most studios are running windows workstations. You generally see the Macs being used by Final Cut guys, while 3d animation, fx guys etc are still all windows.

I have a friend who's girlfiend now thinks she wants to be a photographer and thinks she needs a Mac because "all photographers use Macs". She can barely use a camera, and I have published studio fashion photography that i've done... He told her to ask me about learning photography and what she needs to do. She never asked and just kept insisting to him that "photographers use macs, i need a mac". So instead of using the PC she currently has which is perfectly fine, she has this idea that she needs to spend more money to buy a machine that will supposedly turn her into an artist. It's sad.

I see it a lot though. It stems from the old days where it was once true that a Mac did do desktop publishing well and was the dominant platform in the field. But those days are long gone, just like the old days of "must have an SGI workstation to do 3d animation" :P

Apple has this image that people tend to think makes them better or into something they want to be. Its a bizarre thing. I'm not saying its unique to Apple, but I do think Apple plays it up and promotes the idea.

There is a lot to say for branding when it comes to tricking people into thinking they need brand X to be something they're not. Its funny to me.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[atraintocry]

I get what you're saying. But for every Mac user who is biased against Windows, there is a Windows user who is afraid to look at a Mac because they afraid it won't do everything a PC can do.

I will say that having a faster & less buggy PDF support built into the OS made things that much easier, and the color management in OS X is better, at least compared to what your usual graphics card's Windows driver provides. And there's support for many RAW formats out of the box (I think with Vista it's an add-on but I use XP so I could be wrong). So there are some slight advantages but it's not like I didn't get by on Windows, and Microsoft is definitely trying to expand what they offer photographers and graphic arts people.

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

both platforms have their zealotry but there is a strange perception that artists use Macs and not Pcs.

Its so strange that i just saw that microsoft made a tv advertisement where they let a girl buy any laptop she wants, and she's supposedly a "film maker" and she needs to "cut movies on her laptop"... and she passes up the mac book pro in the commercial and picks up an HP laptop with Vista. The commercial is shot like its a documentary, but its clear that its all bullshit.

At the end of the commercial it ends with something like "I'm an artist and I'm a windows PC". Obviously Microsoft sees the same nonsense that i'm seeing. But whats insulting is that they have to try and pretend that they (Microsoft) are now the "artist platform". Its so silly.

Reality would clealy state she would probably like the mac book pro better because she could run final cut :P after all she said she is a "film maker" (which i doubt is real, and if it is... shes the youtube kind).

btw as far as color management. Vista now finally has universal color management throughout the os. I run keep my monitor's profiled all the time in vista with an eye one.

As for PDF support. I've witnessed how much better many "format" things are on a mac. They're more natively supported with in the OS etc. Its something that i wish microsoft would learn. Hell We FINALLY got tiff support with Vista. How absurd is that?

Frankly Microsoft sucks at formats. They dont support many natively... certainly none that us artists use. the media player on windows is a peice of shit compared to how well quicktime is integrated on a Mac. Its a shame that quicktime on a PC still sucks for the most part.

Like i said, I'm not one of those people that have a problem with Apple. I like Apple, and I plan to buy a Macbook soon myself. However what i dont like is that whole "the machine makes me an artist" attitude that a lot of untalented, in experienced people tend to use to make themselves feel like they are an artist or can be a professional. That zealotry can be PC, MAC, app etc... It's just silly. But my point is i tend to see it come from Apple more, and i tend to see more inexperienced people think they need a MAC to be an artist.

Perhaps that's because Vista has such terrible file support and image ;) And I'm not even a vista fan myself personally.

BTW MS has no idea what to do with a RAW format :P They never will and they never will make software for raw conversion that comes anywhere close to adobe's lightroom or apple's aperture. Thats one of the major problems with Microsoft from my point of view. MS just does not make software that is usable by profesionals. They make clunky, half featured programs that are for grandmother. This is where i give apple a lot of credit, they tend to provide more advanced tools, where as Microsoft has no itnerest in providing software for anyone above a BASIC level. Its sad.

MS makes a decent OS from time to time, but its all of the great software that makes windows a very useful platform.

Microsoft seems to just get in the way. :P

Re:So much for that Hip "artist" Apple Image.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

No I'm not new. I remember when photoshop came to windows. My point was... back then you could make a case and say Apple was for artists. It was a valid statement because it did really have a good hold on publishing and so forth. John and Thomas Knoll were strictly Mac at the time. Its was a reality that Apple provided tools more commonly used by artists. NOW thats not true. Both platforms are used by professional artists... and In my experience, more artists use the PC. There's more software.

The difference now is that Apple still holds on to this "we're the artist friendly platform, and you need a Mac to be an artist". It still holds on to that, and its not true. So thats the change that i meant. It's not based on reality anymore, its now just a "lets be snobs about it" thing.

Re:I own a record store.

[Swizec]

How did it? Seems to be working wonders for the MAFIAA, they're making more money than ever.

Time to shift to jailbroken software

[Anonymous Coward]

He should switch his app distribution mechanism to cydia, which will let him publish anything.
On his website, he could post links to the now, easy jailbreaking software, along with some destructions.

Re:Time to shift to jailbroken software

[themusicgod1]

Wouldn't that violate the DMCA?

Re:I own a record store.

[Snarky McButtface]

Oh my. The Christians are pirating music?

So wither the EU?

[cstec]

When I see stuff like this, I wonder where our EU champions are? You know, the folks who decided that having software development components of Internet Explorer like internet access that people use to add connectivity to non-Microsoft code constitutes illegal tying of Explorer to Windows.

Well, if even a universal networking component in Windows is illegal tying, what is Apple's deciding what we can think, say and use? Apparently the EU is all good with that.

And besides, far easier to bust an American company on foreign soil in kangaroo courts, than to bust Nokia/Symbian for the -40 PAGES- of hoops you have to jump through to get signed for their platform, for which they charge you big bux. And then can pull your auth at any time for any trivial reason, and charge you again.

No, when I see stuff like this, I remember the golden rule. He with the gold, makes the rules...

What the hell?!

[Man On Pink Corner]

Apple sells The Downward Spiral on iTunes!

Apple is starting to sound like Sony, where two (or more) competing ideologies threaten to drag the entire company down. Jobs needs to issue a set of objective, fair guidelines that apply across ALL content Apple sells on ALL of its storefronts. And yes, those guidelines need to come from His Steveness Himself, so that random lackeys in the App Store aren't left making judgment calls on the company's strategic direction.

This really is pretty outrageous; if you've seen the advance publicity for the NIN app, you'd probably agree that it was looking impressive as hell.

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Starting? Apple has always been a DRM peddling big-media supporter, it's just that the honeymoon period they had with fanboys distracted everyone from this fact. Now that the novelty of shiny white gadgets is wearing off, perhaps we'll start seeing a bit more objectivity and a little less worshipful adoration from Jobs' zealots.

Re:What the hell?!

[retchdog]

iTunes has some songs tagged as adult content; I'm sure Spiral qualifies. On the other hand, the app store doesn't which explains this "paradox" up to first-order.

The obvious question is why the app store doesn't have an adult content section. The answer is pure politics; just calling something "adult software" (or even admitting you stock such things) has a stink of "low-art" about it: crude S&M games or masturbatory aids. On the other hand, "adult content" in music typically just means that you maybe don't want a 12 year old listening to it. Your adult friends typically wouldn't hide their NIN, but they'd hide their copy of rapelay.

And, an accurate label like "non-adult software containing/accessing music which would be labeled `adult content'" is too risky for Apple to feed its users, who might well just read it as "adult software". Sad but true: 90% would, left alone, ignore it; 5% would be in the niche; and (of course) 5% would raise holy hell about how Apple is going to start selling porn-games and rile up the 90%. It's more un-Apple than putting EQ levers or a microphone on an iPod; just icky and won't happen.

Re:What the hell?!

[palegray.net]

This really is pretty outrageous; if you've seen the advance publicity for the NIN app, you'd probably agree that it was looking impressive as hell.

One might be inclined to believe it's the beginning of another downward spiral on Apple's part in terms of commitment to recognizing the actual wishes of their customers...

Re:What the hell?!

[Suiggy]

Tagging it as "rated mature" is a little easier for people to digest, while still allowing Apple to reject apps with overly sexual or extremely violent themes. While not perfect, Apple should adopt something similar to the ESRB rating system for games for it's app store.

Re:What the hell?!

[retchdog]

It's still just not worth the risk to Apple. You're talking about enforcing a very vague and fine line, and what would they get out of it? The margin off 100k downloads a year? Even 500k? Or a million? Their download rate so far has been 1.3 billion per year. Although this has nowhere to go but down, it'd take a long time for mature games to be worth it.

Re:What the hell?!

[AHuxley]

The only paradox is how Apple will protect its revenue stream.
If every band or artist can just make a ssl like front end on their 'web page' in the phone, then its pure profit back to them.
Its like a concert in your pocket, small payment out for software, music as content back. The fans love it as *every* cent goes back to the person they adore. Exclusive content and a degree closer to the band.
Apple then becomes a packet pusher that can be replaced with any device with a chip.
A netbook in your pocket.
A 16:9 lcd, an audio chip, some encryption and networking?
Very easy to find, then add Linux or some other off the shelf OS.
The final step is to get the artists to build their own plugin gui.
Out source that to the fans calling it a 'contest' with great prizes :).

Re:What the hell?!

[retchdog]

That novelty band, Presidents of the United States of America, already has a streaming music app: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/02/bands-bypass-itunes-by-streaming-music-through-iphone-apps.ars

Most fans don't care about where their money goes; have no inclination to design artwork for you; and might be a little confused about why your app wants their credit card number.

Re:What the hell?!

[Firehed]

They have complete control of the App Store. There's absolutely nothing stopping them from forcing developers to rate their apps for intended audience, much like the TV ratings (Y, Y7, 14, MA, with the D,S,L,V flags) or video games. It allows them to still disallow outright porn while flagging potentially-offensive software appropriately.

Re:What the hell?!

[Brian Gordon]

Exactly.

"I want to fuck you like an animal / I want to feel you from the inside" is deliberately one of the most inflammatory chorus lines ever seen in the mainstream.. moms seeing those slick iphone commercials and thinking of buying one for christmas might freak if they heard about that song being "promoted" on the app store that their kid will be browsing innocently..

Apple just cares about the cost of implementing an age restriction more than some band's app (a bad idea anyway).

Re:What the hell?!

[Plunky]

"I want to fuck you like an animal / I want to feel you from the inside" is deliberately one of the most inflammatory chorus lines ever seen in the mainstream.. moms seeing those slick iphone commercials and thinking of buying one for christmas might freak if they heard about that song being "promoted" on the app store that their kid will be browsing innocently.

Um, how do you suppose they got to be moms in the first place?

and, I don't understand how its 'inflammatory'? It is crude but hey, thats what immature is all about..

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

This one title they are refusing alone is probably well over a million lost.I don't understand what you mean by risk - do you think anyone would seriously boycott Apple over a second nine inch nails album?

Re:What the hell?!

[Jerry Smith]

"I want to fuck you like an animal / I want to feel you from the inside" is deliberately one of the most inflammatory chorus lines ever seen in the mainstream.. moms seeing those slick iphone commercials and thinking of buying one for christmas might freak if they heard about that song being "promoted" on the app store that their kid will be browsing innocently.

Um, how do you suppose they got to be moms in the first place?

and, I don't understand how its 'inflammatory'? It is crude but hey, thats what immature is all about..

Hopefully they got to be mom when they we're adults, and that's the point here.

Re:What the hell?!

[tjonnyc999]

...Most fans don't care about where their money goes; have no inclination to design artwork for you;...

Very true, but keep in mind that although 99% of fans/users/viewers don't contribute a damn thing, it's the 1% "heavy contributors" that create the bulk of user-gen content.
Nielsen 2006, also common sense. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.useit.com/alertbox/imbalanced-contributions-pyramid.gif&

For every Slashdot poster, there's 1,000 lurkers.
For every 1,000 fans who won't lift a finger, there will be 1 who will contribute.

Re:What the hell?!

[Plunky]

Hopefully they got to be mom when they we're adults, and that's the point here.

I don't see how its at all relevant

You need to be an adult to sign the contract for your shiny new iPhone, also to have a credit card to pay for things at the App store, and to top it all, this app is presumably only of interest to Nine Inch Nails fans who, get this, already listened to their explicit music which is in fact available from iTunes?

Actually, I have no idea if any of that is true since I don't have an iPhone and am not able to run the software to access their marketplace..

Re:What the hell?!

[DMalic]

I see this as a "risk" to the public of locked down devices. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it still pisses me off.

Re:What the hell?!

[amRadioHed]

Just label it as "adult language". That's unambiguous and doesn't imply anything else adult.

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, should a 12 year old kid really own and use an iPhone, or any other cell phone ?

Dunno, seems a bit early for me, at that age I practically didn't use my house's phone, except for the occasional "Hi, grandma!". So I can't really see how it would be useful for them now.

My kids sure won't get one 'til they're at least 16.

Re:What the hell?!

[Goldberg's Pants]

Don't have to be 18 or older to buy an iPod Touch though.

I am a big NIN fan, and it pisses me off to see the lyrics of "Closer" taken completely out of context of not just the song, but the entire album. (Which like Pink Floyd's "The Wall", which inspired it, is a concept album.)

It's fucking stupid though. Not just the music they sell but some of the podcasts they list. Actual recordings of people having sex. And not just regular sex, but master/slave stuff etc...

And yet somehow something in the NIN app is offensive.

Idiocy.

Re:What the hell?!

[kingturkey]

I don't think that would help much in this situation, I think "You let me penetrate you... You let me violate you" and "I want to fuck you like an animal" would fall within the "overly sexual/ violent" category.

Re:What the hell?!

[ImYourVirus]

Adult content for music? wtf, when did parental advisory get pushed aside? Which if I'm not mistaken means 'typically [...] you [...] don't want a 12 year old listening to it' what happened to that? They've been using those labels as far as I can remember...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_Advisory

Re:What the hell?!

[cdwillis]

That novelty band, Presidents of the United States of America, already has a streaming music app: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/02/bands-bypass-itunes-by-streaming-music-through-iphone-apps.ars

The Presidents of the United States of America isn't a novelty band.

Most fans don't care about where their money goes; have no inclination to design artwork for you; and might be a little confused about why your app wants their credit card number.

Most fans. Nine Inch Nails fans are not most fans.

Re:What the hell?!

[Sebilrazen]

For every Slashdot poster, there's 1,000 lurkers. For every 1,000 fans who won't lift a finger, there will be 1 who will contribute.

Your image link is broken, here's one that works.

I think your conclusions from the image are off by a couple of orders. The image states 100% of content is from 10% of users, that implies for every 1 poster there is 9 lurkers. Unless my maths are wrong, which could be the case at this terrible hour.

Re:What the hell?!

[damburger]

As I am just about to head to the apple store to demand a replacement for my fire hazard of a power adaptor (rather than pay £60 for a new one), I am inclined to agree. Once the shininess has worn off Apple products the fact they are shamelessly milking you for every penny they can is obvious.

Re:What the hell?!

[inasity_rules]

You're talking about enforcing a very vague and fine line,

I was with you until I got to this point in your post. I'm not sure which you mean...

Re:What the hell?!

[Sebilrazen]

Parent is correct about NIN fans.

Nine Inch Nails fans have allowed Trent to leave the studio system behind, some of us even pay for the free content, like Ghosts I-IV and The Slip.

I do it because if I like an artist I want what the artist comes up with, not what the studio says the artist needs to produce to make something marketable. Hell I do it even if I normally don't like the artist because I want the artists to move to self production and dissemination. Jill Sobule and Saul Williams have released Studio-less discs.

Re:What the hell?!

[MrPhilby]

"It's like a concert in your pocket" ... erm I don't think so. How about actually go to a concert and save your telephone for something else.

Re:What the hell?!

[rivetgeek]

Yah... cause we all know that lyrics make kids go out and have lots of promiscuous sex.

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's not crude. It's in-your-face, but there's a difference there.

If you'll allow an art analogy (sorry, can't think of one involving cars), take a painting by Jackson Pollock and compare it to accidentally dropping a bucket of paint.

The latter is crude (although this is probably not the best analogy insofar as that it's not intentionally so): devoid of artistic ability and merit, without any kind of statement - in a word, just boring.

The former, on the other hand, is anything but. It's in-your-face if it's in the room, you can't look away. You're drawn to it; it excites you (either because you love it or because you hate it). It polarises; it shatters artistic dogma, it makes you question assumptions. I don't want to say it represents a paradigm shift, but it at least tells you that the current, traditional paradigm isn't the only one possible.

Same for "Closer" and other NiN songs. They're blatant, but they have to in order to overcome the sleep-inducing lovey-dovey valium pop of the 80s. They startle you, but they have to; and they don't use words like "fuck" and sexual expliciteness just for shock value but rather to get rid of all cruft and crustiness in music, or at least make people realise it exists in the first place.

Because of that, they're important. If you think they're immature or crude, you've missed the point entirely.

Re:What the hell?!

[thetoadwarrior]

Starting? Apple has always been a DRM peddling big-media supporter

Apple was one of first companies to push for DRM free music so your claim is full of shit.

Apple doesn't like competition but that is something completely different to DRM.

Re:What the hell?!

[AHuxley]

I was thinking in terms of revenue back to the artist vs more traditional models. Apple wants to stay the drug dealer. The kids are learning to cook meth at home....

Re:What the hell?!

[kklein]

It is crude but hey, thats what immature is all about..

That is not a song about sex; it is a song about alienation and loneliness, and using sex as a replacement for real spiritual closeness, even when we know that's what we're doing.

Sorry. Rabid NIN fan. And I am an adult. Speaking from the standpoint of someone who (unfortunately) has a BA in literature, and therefore has spent a lot of time pulling art apart, I would suggest that the reason for Reznor's continued success and dedicated fanbase spanning a couple generations now is that his work very well may be crude, but it is always honest, and is never immature. To be honest, his lyrics are kind of flattening out (while his music gets better and better--normal for pop musicians, I think), but the guy knows how to express himself poetically.

Back to the topic at hand, however, I understand Apple's position to a certain extent, after the whole baby-shaking incident, but... come on. This is one of the most successful bands of the 1990s, which is still touring sold-out arena shows today. He's pretty mainstream at this point, especially since most of us who got into NIN in the early 90s have kids of our own now. I don't, but if I did, I'd be stoked if he/she got into NIN when he/she was old enough to get it. With my luck, and the way kids turn out, though, they'd probably get into Phish or something (shudder) --oh well, at least Phish knows how to play and does a great show.

Re:What the hell?!

[AikonMGB]

Just being a touch pedantic here, but Trent does indeed record his music in a recording studio -- it's just probably one he built himself, such as Le Pig Studios. What he doesn't have any more is a major record label -- he now releases under his own label, The Null Corporation.

Aikon-

Re:What the hell?!

[Ihmhi]

No, but NIN might not distribute their next album on iTunes.

Re:What the hell?!

[Nerdfest]

I would guess that they sell gangsta rap content about "shootin' cops and beatin' ho's". Why draw a line here?

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse than that. Yes, The Downward Spiral has some pretty explicit stuff in it, but I'm not sure there is a NIN album that doesn't have some pretty explicit stuff in it. Putting it another way, how could you have a reasonably representative NIN catalog of any kind and not run afoul of this issue?

The labeling is not even consistent in iTunes. Let's see. On iTunes I see the track "Closer" from The Downward Spiral is labeled "explicit". But so are 16 other tracks from at least 3 other albums (some of them are duplicates). And the list is not complete. There are several I know are quite explicit that aren't labeled as such. The most obvious example is "Starfuckers, Inc." Go figure.

Anyway, there would be a lot of bands in a similar situation besides NIN if they decided to release an app built around their music. It's the inconsistency between iTunes music and the App Store that is the real problem here.

Re:What the hell?!

[tepples]

Don't have to be 18 or older to buy an iPod Touch though.

You have to be an adult to pay $500 per year for high-speed Internet service in your home to download songs and apps from Apple's store.

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I have no idea if any of that is true since I don't have an iPhone and am not able to run the software to access their marketplace..

You are right, in that you don't know about the ipod touch. I've seen (rich) kids as young as about 12 with apple's touch screen ipod.

Re:What the hell?!

[greyhueofdoubt]

Hey, do you like the rolling stones? Ever listened to the words from "sparks will fly" (I know you'd recognize it, it's on the radio all the time)?

"You'd better grease up
I'm coming back
You're going to catch fire
(....)
You'd better grease up
I'm coming back
You're going to catch fire
(...)
When I finally get myself back on you, baby
I'm gonna step on the gas
I want to get there really fast
I want to fuck your sweet ass"

Never noticed that a popular classic rock song is about anal sex? Pay more attention. Rock and roll is ALWAYS about sex on one level or another.

Relax. If you want to go after someone, go after Britney or the dozens of singers *explicitly packaged for children* but with songs about lust and fucking. That is, to me, way more screwed up than NIN. How are you supposed to keep that Disney sex shit away from your kids when it is blasting on the media meant for kids? Ask any parent if they know the lyrics to any flo-rida song.

-b

Re:What the hell?!

[tepples]

I've seen (rich) kids as young as about 12 with apple's touch screen ipod.

Without the debit card that comes with a checking account, how do they pay for store purchases?

Re:What the hell?!

[AlamedaStone]

I don't think that would help much in this situation, I think "You let me penetrate you... You let me violate you" and "I want to fuck you like an animal" would fall within the "overly sexual/ violent" category.

Sounds like exactly the right amount of sexual to me. And I don't see anything about violence in the lyrics you quote. Puritan!

  =^-^=

Re:What the hell?!

[Sebilrazen]

Thanks for the clarification, that's what I meant. Not being in either industry (music/movies), and not a huge fan of the conglomerate nature of either one, I confuse the terminologies.

sebilrazenPost.replace("studio","corporate record label");

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Why would anyone hate on a protocol sublayer? It just doesn't make sense.

Re:What the hell?!

[AlamedaStone]

I was thinking in terms of revenue back to the artist vs more traditional models. Apple wants to stay the drug dealer. The kids are learning to cook meth at home....

This metaphor pleased me immensely, and then I noticed your handle.

Well-played sir, well-played.

Entertainment is the modern mass-produced drug and has been for at least a generation or two. And it's getting more potent.

Re:What the hell?!

[AlamedaStone]

Don't have to be 18 or older to buy an iPod Touch though.

I am a big NIN fan, and it pisses me off to see the lyrics of "Closer" taken completely out of context of not just the song, but the entire album. (Which like Pink Floyd's "The Wall", which inspired it, is a concept album.)

It's fucking stupid though. Not just the music they sell but some of the podcasts they list. Actual recordings of people having sex. And not just regular sex, but master/slave stuff etc...

And yet somehow something in the NIN app is offensive.

Idiocy.

If this is a subtle slashvert, you have my attention.

Re:What the hell?!

[c_sd_m]

You don't need to sign a contract for an iPod Touch which can also access the App Store. You can buy stuff from iTunes with a gift card so you don't need a credit card (at least in the US). I was a 13-y/o NIN fan, though my parents probably figured out I was listening to the loud music I was playing. Someone's older brother would burn a copy for you if you couldn't get it yourself.

Apple could just let parents do the parenting (or wait for the US gov't to do it).

Re:What the hell?!

[AikonMGB]

No worries =P

Aikon-

Re:What the hell?!

[kingturkey]

Violation sounds a bit violent. I'm a fan of NIN, Closer was my favourite song for a while, so I'm no puritan, I just think that's how Apple would classify it.

Re:What the hell?!

[pxlmusic]

+1, sir.

Re:What the hell?!

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

f you'll allow an art analogy (sorry, can't think of one involving cars), take a painting by Jackson Pollock and compare it to accidentally dropping a bucket of paint.

Actually, I did and fail to see the difference.

JP may have /thought/ he was making great art, but mostly he helped to ushered in a new age of people slathering paint randomly on canvas and calling it art. Personally, I think he did it for the sheer amusement value involved in watching people trying to figure out what the heck it "meant".

This isn't to say that I disagree with your point on the subject at hand... I don't. Just suggesting that Jackson Pollock may not be the best example to make that point...

Re:What the hell?!

[nabsltd]

Yes, after years of selling you DRM-infested music, Apple was one of the first* to ask to be able to sell without DRM so that they could re-sell you the same music, thus milking you for every penny as the GP said.

*By "one of the first", I mean "third or fourth out of the six or seven large downloadable music stores". EMusic, Amazon and others all offered DRM-free music before the Apple iTunes store.

Re:What the hell?!

[milkmage]

yeah, but the album has that EXPLICIT sticker on it, so everything's OK, right? If the app has the lyrics in the code, then the chorus "I want to fuck you like an animal" probably triggered the bad word alarm and the app got immediately rejected on that basis alone. i don't think there's competing ideologies here. the presence of the explicit label 'protects' Apple from any legal backlash from selling such "subversive" content. until there's a rating system in place for software other than games, i can see why they err on the side of caution. Music, movies and games are rated by a committee, there's no such committee for generic software. apple can't establish a widely accepted rating system on their own - they'd need the blessing and input from the "dontcorruptmykids.org" zealots. do you really want every single app to go through committee to see what rating it's going to get - approvals take long enough as it is. one solution that would probably work is for apple to extend the OSX parental controls to the phone OS. Apple or the devloper can flag apps as explicit, and a new setting on the phone lets the user decide if they want to prompt for 4 digit numeric code to launch the app - similar to the parental controls on your cable/satellite box. parental controls = porntube.app coming to a phone near you!

Re:What the hell?!

[the_wesman]

Parent is correct about NIN fans.

... and wrong about the presidents band

Re:What the hell?!

[Naturalis Philosopho]

As a avowed Apple Fan (TM), I call WTF? It's a computer for cripes sake! What do people expect, a magic box? Computer's have problems; yes you should get a new power adapter for free if you haven't abused it and it's under warrantee, but, really, why are you upset about it? Are there really people who look at something that you buy from any company as more than a, well, a thing? If the Apple fit and finish are worth it to you, then pay for it. If not, then don't. It's not like anyone forces a Lamborghini owner to pay $15K for an oil change, and no one forces anyone to pay for shiny iPods or other items. Maybe that's Apple's biggest problem right there; people do expect it to be more than a thing, and folks are disappointed when they find out that that is just what it is.

Re:What the hell?!

[tjonnyc999]

Well, none of those statistics are exact (and should be taken with a shaker of salt even if they do promise to be exact), but the point is something along the lines of "99% of user-gen content comes from top 1% of users, while the other 99% of users just consume and never generate anything."

Thanks for the link fix... weird, worked on my system.

Re:What the hell?!

[carou]

No - Amazon weren't first.

Don't confuse the recent "everything is DRM-free" move with a much earlier deal with EMI to offer most of their catalogue DRM-free. Albums were sold at the same price as before. That was available well before the Amazon store came online.

Yes, emusic was earlier, but a few people do occasionally want to buy major-label music...

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Naah. The point is people with a hypermoral sense that compels them, beyond all reason, to want to control other people. In Apple's case, they are probably just afraid of the PR noise that would be generated by moral minority types.

Get this: Before rock-n-roll, teenagers fucked before marriage. And, after rock-n-roll, teenagers continued to fuck before marriage.

Isn't that astounding? What's even more astounding is that people never learn.

Re:What the hell?!

[R3d M3rcury]

That's sort of the problem.

iTunes allows parents to prevent their children from buying music with explicit lyrics. However, applications do not have the same capability.

So the problem is, if Apple allows the application and children buy it for their iPod touch, the immediate reaction is "Why did Apple allow my child to buy this song when I said that it shouldn't allow my child to music with explicit lyrics?!"

Yes, Apple should add an "explicit" tag to the application if it accesses music with explicit lyrics. They haven't done it (yet).

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a thing called an mp3 player.. it has rechargeable batteries. If I replace the batteries it does not void the warranty. Can you say the same thing of Iproducts?

Re:What the hell?!

[BoothbyTCD]

They are only a 'novelty band' if their novelty is being awesome!

Re:What the hell?!

[hesiod]

Have they claimed their products have user-replaceable batteries?

Re:What the hell?!

[Brian Gordon]

If he was using it to try to make a point then it's Art, whether or not you can tell it apart from spilled paint. Beethoven's romantic music is just as legitimate an interpretation of the world as Cage's dissonant music.

Re:What the hell?!

[Meski]

And that is an answer to the parent's question? To use a car analogy, car manufacturers do not claim that you can refill their cars with fuel, either. I think people would be somewhat annoyed to find no fuel filler on them.

Re:What the hell?!

[hesiod]

Admittedly, I like car analogies as much as the next Slashdotter, but in your case (as much as I hate to admit it) it is not applicable. Your analogy suggests that you can't "refuel" the Apple "gas tanks"... but you can. Sure, they may eventually fail... but so does your fuel filter.

Re:What the hell?!

[Meski]

Actually, my analogy was more for the claim - car manufacturers don't sell cars with a refuelling feature (or diety preserve us, an optional extra), you assume that you can. Likewise, you buy an electronic appliance, you assume you can replace the battery even though this is not stated.

Re:What the hell?!

[JebusIsLord]

Great album, but if you're going to quote lyrics, go for the really shocking ones:

I am a big man
(yes I am)
and I have a big gun
got me a big old Dick and I
I like to have fun
held against your forehead
I'll make you suck it
maybe I'll put a hole in your head
you know, just for the fuck of it
I can reduce you if I want
I can devour
I'm hard as fucking steel, and Iâ(TM)ve got the power
I'm every inch a man, and I'll show you somehow
me and my fucking gun
nothing can stop me now
shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot
I'm going to come all over you
me and my fucking gun
me and my fucking gun

Regarding the topic at hand, Apple says they will be taking resubmissions soon, once the app store implements content ratings.

Re:What the hell?!

[telax]

What apple needs is an "PARENTAL ADVISORY explicit content" -application icons.

Re:What the hell?!

[hesiod]

Likewise, you buy an electronic appliance, you assume you can replace the battery even though this is not stated.

Perhaps that's where the misunderstanding arises. I don't assume that anything has replaceable batteries unless it says so on the package: "requires 2 AA batteries", "batteries included!", etc.

Re:What the hell?!

[Tokerat]

It doesn't take a /.er of even average intelligence to see that your argument makes you just as bad as the fanboys, just in the opposite sense (which is not exactly the place you think it is).

"I don't like it because it's Apple and they make expensive stuff and they listen to companies they want to partner with, and make compromises based on listening to the terms their partners want to set!" Oh fuck, not that!

Re:What the hell?!

[Engine]

You do know that the batteries are rechargable? Your analogy is just stupid. Car manufacturers do not claim that you can replace the fuel tank. Under normal usage the batteries degrades significantly, long after the warranty has expired anyway. I'm still using my ipod mini that's about 5 years old with the original batteries. Of course the battery doesn't last as long as when the ipod was new, but long enough for many hours of listening during the day. On the other hand, the fuel consumption of my 15 year old Camry is significantly higher today than it was when it was new.

Re:What the hell?!

[Anonymous Coward]

and you called your first post pedantic...

*rolleyes* nerds...

Re:What the hell?!

[S-4'N3]

Also, apparently Steve Jobs was pretty vocal about the uselessness of DRM for a couple of years before Apple dropped it. Unfortunately, since Apple doesn't own the music, it wasn't their decision.

Re:What the hell?!

[Meski]

What, rechargeable? And here I've been buying new ipods when the batteries run down. :^) [1]

The analogy is the part where there is no claim by car manufacturers that you can refill them, not that you can replace the fuel tank.

[1] obligatory irony emote, in case you don't understand irony in the same way you don't understand analogy.

Re:What the hell?!

[Engine]

I'll explain it slowly for you. Your analogy is stupid and irrelevant. If you insist on using a car in the analogy, refueling the car would correspond to recharging the iPod, not replacing the battery. Replacing the battery would correspond to replacing e.g. the fuel tank. No buyer of a car would expect that it would be easy and cheap to replace the fuel tank.

Big Deal

[LittleStone]

Next, sex toy manufacturers announced that Walmart rejected them as suppliers.

Re:Big Deal

[SUB7IME]

More like: sex-toy store rejects new sex-toy videogame.

iPhone devs dirty little secret...

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a big deal, and it happens all the time, and every developer tries to use it for marketing leverage.

Basically, when you submit your app, you have to indicate what inappropriate content it contains. If you don't flag it appropriately, or go way over the top in any of the categories (ex. baby shaker), you get rejected. The content areas you flag automatically 'calculate' the age rating for the app.

In this case, the dev probably forgot to flag/was too lazy to flag the correct areas, and it got 'rejected' the second time around because a better reviewer noticed.

If you don't believe me, idle in #iphonedev on Freenode. It's very common, and really not that big of a deal unless you misunderstand the issues.

The real evil here is the soccer moms that get to run social policy nowadays. Not the companies that have to kowtow to them in fear of negative publicity from the mindless media.

Re:iPhone devs dirty little secret...

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>The real evil here is the soccer moms that get to run social policy nowadays.

Businesses exist to *make money*. That is their ONLY purpose! Why do slashdotters expect companies to give stuff away or be "considerate" of their competitors or place the needs of non-paying critics above the needs of their core market?

And it's especially funny to read stuff like that on a decidedly 'libertarian' website... LOL. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

-b

Re:I own a record store.

[HungryHobo]

A sob story from the same people who brought you "help the electric light companies are putting my candle store out of buisness" and "Oh no! Why does nobody wants to buy betamacs any more!"

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[ieatcookies]

Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve content. (In this case that means fuck Apple, which immediately means I get modded up and down until the fanboi zealots are the only ones modding and I end up with a -1).

We've seen open platforms dwindle in past years. PC gaming is in decline. Most consoles need all manner of hack and mod to run home brew content. Hell even GPS APIs (like TomToms) have been discontinued on newer models. We've gone from a society of tinkerers where the best idea wins to an increasingly IP law based profit model that stiffles innovation.

Hell I don't even understand why objectionable content needs to be censored like this. For the most part don't buy it if you're offended. For the truely heinous stuff like that shake a baby to death iPhone app that was in the news lately, existing laws should be brought to bear if applicable. ...and you know what? I say this knowing that I fucking can't stand NIN music. As far as I'm concerned the only thing close to being any good they ever did was Closer, and that sold more on novelty and shock factor (and as a shagging song) than anything else.

Becuase you then lose all your pre-15 market due to having uncensored material available on your device.. It's business sense to moderate the content on your device as they go hand in hand when it comes to product acceptance.

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

funny story. obviously fake, but there's a huge flaw in the logic here.

the kid buys the cd, the kid has every right to let his/her friends listen to it. if it's in his house, it's his property. i don't see people going back to get legalities over people who made mix tapes way back in the day.

holy shit, revelations.

Trent's philosophy doesn't match with Apple's

[mister_playboy]

Trent Reznor is the artist with the most tech savvy attitude on the planet, at least as far as popular acts go. He currently has no record label contract and surely will never again have one, he has released music for free (as in beer), and has released music under the CC license, allowing fans to freely share and remix it. He has leaked his own material (the Broken Movie and the Closure DVD) to The Pirate Bay to overcome legal entanglements, because he wanted his music out there for people to hear. Like his music or not or not, you have to give him some credit for breaking out of the mainstream and proving the old record label system of doing things is not a necessity and can be overcome.

His attitudes resonate with a lot of us here on /. and I wouldn't be surprised if he is a member of this site.

Apple should reconsider... Trent has probably made the majority of his music on Apple computers, so he is a highly visible user of their products, not just "some musician". They should have embraced the marketing opportunity presented here.

I hope Trent shuns them for this... Apple's control freak attitude does not match with Trent's embrace of freedom, in both the monetary and the speech sense of the word. I say he is a trailblazer, the first big artist of the post RIAA/copyright dominated world. The first artist of the 21st century and the digital information age.

Re:Trent's philosophy doesn't match with Apple's

[ghighi]

As far as i know, TR is the first artist ever credited with having used a Mac in the actual recording process (citation needed). He allways has been a great supporter of apple products, and it looks like a major turn down. I wonder if he will make the move to open source software? He's a geek for sure but not the kind to enjoy hacking into JACK all day long.

Re:Trent's philosophy doesn't match with Apple's

[Atrox666]

Trent also was instrumental in giving a voice to a lot of artists the big companies were shutting out of the market.
Trent is like an iceberg..the part you see is fairly small.
Real art could happen on the iPhone but real art is confrontational, real art challenges.
Art approved by corporate edict isn't art..it's just fancy telephone wallpaper.

Re:Trent's philosophy doesn't match with Apple's

[Anonymous Coward]

I would also like to point out, his last album to be released was not just available in a crapp 128Bit MP3. It had a number of options, the best of which was 96KHz PCM WAVE (thats vastly higher quality than a CD).

Re:Trent's philosophy doesn't match with Apple's

[xant]

The worst part is this should have been an absolute no-brainer. Trent Reznor fits their marketing approach: that to be hip, artistic, alternative, young and cool, you need Apple products. But they've started to eat their own bellies on this one. They are so concerned with having total image control, that they are now excluding things that match their own image.

The more they tighten their grip, the more (handheld operating) systems will slip through their fingers.

Re:I own a record store.

[MichaelSmith]

This is an old boilerplate troll.

This is art

[Anonymous Coward]

This is art. Someone home at Apple?

At any rate, it illustrates the slippery slope Apple's going down. All sorts of people will feel invited to seek attention for their agenda now.

Re:I own a record store.

[Kotoku]

Ah, some copypasta then...in that case Troll...troll..troll your boat.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[robably]

Becuase you then lose all your pre-15 market due to having uncensored material available on your device..

...and all your post-15 audience due to them seeing the app store as being filled with an ocean of peurile and flaky apps. Not a professional image to present to your customers.

Re:I own a record store.

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

In your world 1 year is ten years long?

seems to be a common story

[Trepidity]

There was a piece on G4TV a while back about a game parodying airport security policies. While you might think Apple objected to the concept itself, they rejected it instead for "inappropriate sexual content", without telling the developer what specifically they objected to, leaving him rather confused since the game wasn't sexually explicit at all. It turned out, after some months of guessing and resubmission and trying to contact people, that what had offended Apple was the inclusion of items like underwire bras (which are notorious for setting off metal detectors).

Re:seems to be a common story

[Blue Stone]

I hope Apple realises that whereas it has tried to portray itself 'Apple' as hip and cool and trendy, actions like this are portraying it as something entirely different.

I mean, can you imagine the hip dude from the 'I'm an Apple' adverts rejecting or refusing to play a game because it has a reference to "underwire bras"?

Apple is declaring that it isn't in fact that person at all.

Re:seems to be a common story

[drinkypoo]

If you really believe that app was pulled for sexual content, there is nothing anyone can do to help you. Please think before you post. Here, let me help you: after some months of guessing and resubmission and trying to contact people, Apple finally came up with a bullshit excuse.

Re:seems to be a common story

[Trepidity]

They actually accepted it after he removed the supposedly sexual items, though, which makes that explanation strange.

Censoring in the name of

[Anonymous Coward]

F*&^& you I won't do what you tell me!

Re:Censoring in the name of

[mister_playboy]

That's Rage Against The Machine... not Nine Inch Nails.

nin: access available in iTunes.

[emeade]

Just "bought" nin:access for free on iTunes.

What kind of problems am I having?

[Anonymous Coward]

None

Lack of guidelines

[Digital Pizza]

Apple's management really need to gather up their courage and actually establish some guidelines for approval. It seems apparent to me that such guidelines don't exist at all, even inside Apple, so the staff responsible for approval of apps have to make their own guess. Whether your app gets approved depends on the personal opinion of whichever random Apple staffer it was whose desk it came across, which would be why Apple's policy seems so inconsistent.

Four Things

[gyrogeerloose]

1) The poster should have waited until he knew what the actual story was before he made his post

2) A lot of people are making comments here without knowing the whole story either.

3) Trent Reznor is a musician, not the actual developer of the app and likely doesn't know the whole story himself.

4) It's probably going to turn out to be a mistake/misunderstanding on someone's part, either the developer or someone at Apple and that the app will be approved eventually. It won't be the first time this has happened.

Re:I own a record store.

[enrgeeman]

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/23/0114225 This story came up on a quick google search.
Sure looks like about a year ago to me. http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=531448&cid=23169104
Looks like google proves my memory isn't all that bad yet.

The role of the gatekeeper

[AnalPerfume]

I understand why Apple want to be a gatekeeper for their gadgets but they use it as an excuse for blocking competition and censoring what it's users may or may not want.

I see only two legit reasons for the role of gatekeeper.

1 - Prevent any application with malicious code finding it's way onto a users unit. ie if it invades someones privacy, data or security it's out.
2 - If it's written to interfere with other competitor applications

Preventing customers from using applications which compete with your in-house ones is NOT a legit reason (AKA anti-competitive practices). Preventing applications which don't fit your views on morality is NOT a legit reason. Preventing applications which block or circumvent your revenue streams is NOT a legit reason.

While the iPhone has a substantial lead, the Android will catch up and overtake the iPhone primarily because of the open and uncensored development model. At which point Apple will have to make a decision; either continue to be an exclusive niche option, or start giving their users and developers more freedom to use the gadgets they bought as they see fit.

Re:The role of the gatekeeper

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there is another reason, which they just choose to ignore though.
There have been more than a few apps obviously including e.g. FFmpeg without adhering to the license.
That would be a good thing to look after, after all Apple is distributing it so they are the ones liable for copyright infringment...

What kind of problem are we having?

[Hurricane78]

None.

We don't use that piece of shit. At all.

Amazing....

[Eric Freyhart]

I have been a developer for over 30 years. My first application (we called them "programs" back then) was on the TRS-80 microcomputer sold by Radio Shack. In all this time I have seen a very disturbing trend towards closed operating systems and platforms. If the automotive industry operated the same way, you would be forced to only buy service and parts from "authorized" centers and distributors. This was long ago outlawed by state and federal regulations. If Microsoft were to only allow "approved" applications on their OS (computer or mobile), the federal government would be looking at a major case against their anti-competitive behaviour. Is there really a clause in the TOS for iPhone developers that they cannot say anything about a rejected application? Wow. I cannot understand how any company in todays market can get away with that. Well, lets see... Microsoft: open and free development for their platform, and will run on multiple hardware configurations. Google: open and free development for their platform, and will run on multiple hardware configurations. Apple: closed platform with final say of any application developed, and with a percentage of all applications being paid to Apple Corp. Can someone tell me again why I should by an iPhone? Can someone tell me why Apple has not been taken to court? Can someone explain to me the hype on why Apple is so much better than MS?

Re:Amazing....

[perryizgr8]

Can someone tell me again why I should by an iPhone? Can someone tell me why Apple has not been taken to court? Can someone explain to me the hype on why Apple is so much better than MS?

rdf

Re:Amazing....

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys are clueless! Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony all operate with the same system for their videogame consoles. Nintendo for years ban any game that had red blood.

And as for the "What gives Apple the rights..." The fact that they are providing you with the delivery mechanism for your applications. Also they verify that your app won't take down the device every few minutes. Look at everything negative about Palm OS and it's usually due to crappy 3rd Party developer code. Except for Treo 700p that was a POS straight out of the box.

Re:Amazing....

[MrSteveSD]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's quite outrageous that a company should have control over what applications we are permitted to use. We should boycott all closed systems. I steadfastly refuse to buy any consoles because of their closed nature.

Re:Amazing....

[Christian Henry]

If the automotive industry operated the same way, you would be forced to only buy service and parts from "authorized" centers and distributors.

The industry *still* operates this way. Ever attempted to have an independent repair shop perform an OBD-II diagnostic test on a higher-end automobile?

Oh sure, there's nothing preventing the independent shop from retrieving the codes from an OBD-II tool, but without the necessary manuafacturer documentation, good luck determining what the codes mean.

Re:Amazing....

[AnalPerfume]

Apple do need to be hauled through the same anti-competitive regulators as Microsoft and Intel on several issues. Microsoft need to be hauled through on many more counts than they currently have been. Until the US regulators start doing their jobs, the only people I see willing to take a stand is the EU. We need BOTH sides to slam them, not just one. It is shameful that this tends to be US companies doing the dirty, while the US regulators turn a blind eye.

Re:Amazing....

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a reason for locking down the app store, so nothing on there will crash your phone. For "normal" people, they don't want their phone to crash ever.

Apple has control over everything, and for a mass-market cellphone, this is normal. And remember, even though Apple "claims" it's illegal under DMCA, you can jailbreak, letting you do whatever the hell you want, even if it kills your battery in 30 min.

Re:Amazing....

[drinkypoo]

The industry *still* operates this way. Ever attempted to have an independent repair shop perform an OBD-II diagnostic test on a higher-end automobile?

There is no such thing as an "OBD-II diagnostic test". OBD-II has "monitor" tests, which are performed automatically. If the monitor fails then the emissions light is lit. OBD-II error codes are industry-standard, but the OBD-II connector is also used to alter settings and these days even to reflash the PCM, and THIS is the data that is not provided by automotive manufacturers.

There are non-standard powertrain codes, but in practice you will never see them. If you are competent you do not need them, either. I didn't get the ASE certification (I was broke and couldn't afford to take the test) but I did get the A in my six-unit automotive electronics class.

What you can't do is reprogram the car for high altitudes or whatever. Way to misunderstand the issue entirely.

Re:Amazing....

[drinkypoo]

If Microsoft were to only allow "approved" applications on their OS (computer or mobile), the federal government would be looking at a major case against their anti-competitive behaviour. Is there really a clause in the TOS for iPhone developers that they cannot say anything about a rejected application? Wow. I cannot understand how any company in todays market can get away with that.

And as for the "What gives Apple the rights..." The fact that they are providing you with the delivery mechanism for your applications

Well, you totally missed the actual issue. What gives Apple the right to prevent me from installing an app on my iPhone that didn't come from the App store? Next time, try to stay on topic.

Re:Amazing....

[Anonymous Coward]

The irony is that 30 years ago, the Apple II was much more "open" than the TRS-80 ever was. What happened to you Apple?

Re:Amazing....

[worldthreat]

thank you, Eric. as a technophobe until 2002, and starting on a Mac, I've developed a similar philosophy as you... I am unable to understand how well Apple markets itself as the hip, free and un-evil (in contrast to windows)"alternative" when all their software is proprietary to it's hardware and vice vera.... well... i'm a digital-artist, programmer and video editor and i'm a PC....(linux is great for running servrs! or sabayon, locally) PS finally... botnet for apple! out NOW!!!

Re:Amazing....

[telax]

Can someone explain to me the hype on why Apple is so much better than MS?

For the same reason that MS-users hype that MS is better than Apple. The correct answer is really: Because what I own is better than what you own, if they aren't equal.

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here. YHBT. YHL. HAND.

Right hand, meet Left hand

[Servo]

If the Downward Spiral is too objectionable for the iPhone App Store, how come they still have no problem selling the Downward Spiral on the iTunes Music Store, so you can listen to said album on your iPhone? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Apple makes some great products but every once and a while they make some ass backwards decision that just can't be described.

Re:Right hand, meet Left hand

[Stuart Gibson]

Because the music store has the option to mark content as explicit, giving parents the ability to block that content from being purchased in iTunes.

AT THE MINUTE, only games on the app store have ratings and can be restricted from download.

With the 3.0 OS, this will change and ALL apps will be given content ratings, so this sort of thing should no longer be an issue.

I'm surprised that for such a tech savvy community, no-one in this thread has mentioned that as the reason.

Man up and treat Apple like the bitch it is

[hyades1]

It's 'way past time that we stopped allowing corporate blowboys with the moral and ethical standards of a crack whore to be in positions where they get to decide what's acceptable in the area of grassroots-level communication. People need to either jailbreak their toy or throw it in the garbage. This kind of censorship is completely unacceptable, and I hope enough of the marching morons who accept casual abridgment of their rights finally start to get a clue.

This reminds me of when Disney used to fire people who didn't smile all the time. As the old saying goes, "The floggings will continue until morale improves."

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so that's why open platforms are losing. They can't hold the pre-15 market. Great, glad we got that one sorted out.

[OT] PC Gaming: Growth==decline?

[Anonymous Coward]

PC gaming is in decline

NPD Data
Retail sales in the PC game software industry showed signs of growth, with revenues up one percent, exceeding $970 million in 2006

That doesn't include digital download sales:
There's twenty million people on Steam now [Feb 2009]. That's 100% year on year growth since 2004.

And none of these numbers include the countless indie developers.
I know it's trendy to bash PC gaming but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Re:[OT] PC Gaming: Growth==decline?

[perryizgr8]

PC gaming is in decline

NPD Data Retail sales in the PC game software industry showed signs of growth, with revenues up one percent, exceeding $970 million in 2006

That doesn't include digital download sales: There's twenty million people on Steam now [Feb 2009]. That's 100% year on year growth since 2004.

And none of these numbers include the countless indie developers. I know it's trendy to bash PC gaming but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

crysis ftw!
only on pc

Rejected because our template looked like Polaroid

[preaction]

We made an iPhone app to post images to a WebGUI photo gallery, and we were rejected because the template for our photo gallery looks remotely like Polaroid pictures. Because. Our. Template. Looks. Like. Polaroid. Pictures...

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[Anonymous Coward]

PC gaming is in decline.

WAT? Citation needed. PC gaming is larger business THAN EVER.

Our problems with the AppStore

[Anonymous Coward]

We've released 14 apps now to the AppStore and I could go on forever about our problems with it. And yes I'll remain anonymous, I fear google indexing and Apple's wrath.

Problem 1: They rejected our apps that had cartoon drawings of the possible future presidents in it, it was meant to be a silly app, yet was rejected because it "Defamed a public figure". We in no way depicted the potential presidents in any way.

Problem 2: Two of our apps, after about 1 week after submitting them for approval we received a email which said "It may take longer than expected to review your application". We determined this was because our application wasn't a "high priority" application. I think submitted apps have a process in which they first order them by apps which they think are of more benefit, or higher quality, or from big name publishers, and put them in a "order to review". These two apps took over 5 MONTHS to approve. So much for their one week turnaround. F**kers. One of our apps was time-sensitive, and well, after 5 months it was basically useless.

Problem 3: When the AppStore first launched, I made the mistake of saying "upload later" and invoking a bug with their Application Loader. Their application loader was too simple and would allow me to upload .apps and say they were uploaded properly, but not show them in the iTunesConnect website. I also got no errors or details about why not. I also was unable to get support from Apple. I went to two Apple Store's, emailed every iTunes and Developer support email I could find, and nothing. Two weeks went buy and we just figured it out, our version string wasn't properly formatted to their standards. They never got back to me on this issue at all. (not to all, do not "Upload later")

Problem 4: The "What's new" string on their web interface had a bug where you could only type in 64 characters even though the error said (too long, limit it to 4000 characters). Bug reported. Took them 4 weeks to fix this.

Problem 5: Early on there was NO information for developers. At least for small ones. We had NO information about how many sales, how the whole process worked, anything. If I would have known 1 week after our game was released it did so well, we would have started kicking ass on new games. Instead we have to wait a month+ to get any data.

There were a lot more things we ran into and Apple has kept updating things. But man... it was a very very rocky process. And very in the dark. I couldn't get support for shit. Every single beta update broke the app we were creating. Then even their updates all broke our app. Very limited backwards compatibility, and many undocumented new/changed features left us with a very bad taste in our mouth. Though they are finally up to date on most of the docs, it just took them 6 months or so to get there.

Re:Our problems with the AppStore

[perryizgr8]

so what do apple get from you for this behavior? yes, you continue to develop for the iphone and provide value to their product and their store. so why would apple or any other company not do the same thing they did?

Re:Our problems with the AppStore

[greyhueofdoubt]

And yet you wrote *14* apps for the iPhone.

Get a fucking grip. It's either worth it for you or it's not.

Put your money where your mouth is and develop for other companies.

-b

Re:Our problems with the AppStore

[Anonymous Coward]

We've released 14 apps now to the AppStore and I could go on forever about our problems with it.

Really slow learner, huh? I'd have thought that after being screwed around with once or twice you'd have gotten a clue and developed for another platform. Or are you some sort of masochist?

Re:Our problems with the AppStore

[Kartu]

So if I develop for Windows, I dare not criticize Microsoft?

Sony.

[SmallFurryCreature]

Sony, the VCR company. Sony, the music company. Sony, Portable Music Player Company. Sony, the DRM making copying to other formats impossible company.

Seems Apple has fallen into the same trap, to many divisions, to many competing ideologies.

iTunes sells music and it would be silly to exclude a popular band. iPhone sells apps and apparently wants them censored. For whatever reason they seem to think it is more important to keep the iPhone market appearing wholesome then it is to offer the customer what they want.

Just wait till you see the sidesplit that occurs when Apple realizes that their MP3 players with the biggest storage (which they make a huge profit on) are the ones filled with the least music bought through iTunes (do the math, who has the money to fill 30+gb through iTunes?).

There is a reason Philips sold its music division. To much conflict of intrest. If you just produce the hardware, you got no reason to limit it. Just look at those ISP's who have forgone the idea of having their own portal and selling content. They are HAPPY to advertise their fastest connections as the best and cheapest way to download music and movies. I very much doubt they are reffering to iTunes and the like for their customers.

Re:Sony.

[perryizgr8]

yeah you're dead on about sony. i mean on any sony ericsson phone, while listening a song, you can click options and send. its that easy. you can use bluetooth, email, ir. and the cds sony sells we know how fucked up they are with anti copying mechanisms.

Re:I own a record store.

[VoltageX]

This troll pops up once in a while.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[dunkelfalke]

In terms of turnover, maybe, because current games are almost like movies. But neither in terms of game amount nor in terms of game studio/publisher amount.
Remember the rate at which games came out 15-20 years ago.

analog was special

[jipn4]

We've gone from a society of tinkerers where the best idea wins to an increasingly IP law based profit model that stiffles innovation.

Analog was really special that way, and it may not come back: open interfaces defined by physics, plus the ability to plug components together anyway you like.

Re:analog was special

[drinkypoo]

We didn't go Digital because it was inferior or to institute a system of control. We went digital because we want computers to give us back yes/no answers. You can't do what we do today with analog. Then again, there's things that are hard for us to do because we try to do everything digitally... but there are compensations for it.

Re:I own a record store.

[libkarl2]

That would make a good Chick publications cartoon tract!

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[IamTheRealMike]

We've seen open platforms dwindle in past years. PC gaming is in decline. Most consoles need all manner of hack and mod to run home brew content. Hell even GPS APIs (like TomToms) have been discontinued on newer models

That's an exagguration. For one, "most consoles" do not need hack and mod to run homebrew. You can write your own games, TODAY, for the Xbox 360 using Visual Studio, and upload them to Xbox Live where you have access to a huge market approaching the size of the iPhone market. There's minimal screening done on these apps beyond basic "does it crash when I play it" type checks. One "community" game as they call it on the x360 is based around farting. The PS3 has Linux.

The GPS thing is entirely about revenue streams ... it costs a ton of money to create digital maps, and TomTom like devices are a significant source of the revenue for them. Providing open APIs to do turn by turn GPS directions isn't going to happen whilst these devices pay the bills at the data providers.

Finally, that said, the App Store model for the iPhone is the Wrong Way(tm). Look at Android. I've been very happy with the 1.5 cupcake update. It resolves a lot of the problems the platform had.

Hey Trent...

[Legion303]

Release the app along with jailbreaking instructions and links to tools like quickpwn.

Decenting to corporate evilness

[el_jake]

The Apple has begun to rot. And remember corporations are far from democratic and humane.

Isn't Prohibition Great!

[Bones3D_mac]

It's nice being able to sleep at night knowing that we're all protected by a vague code of ethics, all selectively enforced by a group of people whom we've never met.

gPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the exact reason why i got a G1 instead of iPhone. Why would anyone defer his right to decide which application is ok to install on HIS phone to some clueless corporate moloch?

No parental controls on the app store.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a guess here, without doing deep research into it.

"The Downward Spiral" album is marked explicit and download can be restricted in iTunes' parental controls.

The app store as far as I've noticed doesn't have explicit markings, thus not blocked by parental controls. Therefore any kid with access would be able to download something with objectionable material. So the app update may have been rejected based on that. However doing a quick search right now, I see there are free apps based around alcohol (recipes, games, locators.)

Just another reason to avoid Apple like the plague

[Snaller]

Want censorship? By all means go with them. Otherwise: Byebye!

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[syousef]

How can you so confidently be stating things when you're do damned incorrect it's paintful to read?

That's an exagguration. For one, "most consoles" do not need hack and mod to run homebrew. You can write your own games, TODAY, for the Xbox 360 using Visual Studio, and upload them to Xbox Live where you have access to a huge market approaching the size of the iPhone market. There's minimal screening done on these apps beyond basic "does it crash when I play it" type checks. One "community" game as they call it on the x360 is based around farting. The PS3 has Linux.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Development_Kit
"Only developers that are licensed by Microsoft may compile code and release binaries (.XEXs) of their software with the XDK, any software released using the XDK by developers that aren't licensed is illegal."

My understanding is the cost is prohibitive unless you're selling in large volumes.

The GPS thing is entirely about revenue streams ... it costs a ton of money to create digital maps, and TomTom like devices are a significant source of the revenue for them. Providing open APIs to do turn by turn GPS directions isn't going to happen whilst these devices pay the bills at the data providers.

TomTom USE to provide an SDK. It wasn't about providing a way to circumvent buying the expensive mapping. It was about adding applications like a music player or tying into the GPS software to do things like add a track log. It has since been removed. So not only could it happen it did happen.

I know this is /. but you should seriously consider having some knowlege on a topic before writing about it.

Finally, that said, the App Store model for the iPhone is the Wrong Way(tm). Look at Android. I've been very happy with the 1.5 cupcake update. It resolves a lot of the problems the platform had.

If the best thing you can say about software is release 1.5 fixes bugs, I wouldn't be so terribly happy. Unfortunately it seems the standard these days.

Well, stop submitting for a week

[cheros]

Let's face it. You write apps for the iPhone ebcause you like the product and want to get in front of that iPhone audience. For that, you will have to follow the dress code of the theatre (obligatory roll neck sweater joke omitted).

In turn, Apple now uses the presence of so many apps as an extra argument to buy a product that is at best described as an intelligent phone for beginners (I don't like Windows, but HTC has IMHO done more to clean up that interface than apple, and they have at least an OS that knows vaguely about multitasking. In other words, you are helping them sell, and are mistreated as thanks.

If you really, really want to fix this you should organise yourself and NOT upload apps to Apple for a week. Just don't. It's only a week's wait, but the marketing impact on Apple would be large enough (immense, I would imagine) for them to start paying attention - I cannot imagine anyone in th press miss an opportunity to write about Apple. Anything less will just drown in the background noise or won't penetrate the famous Reality Distortion Shield.

So do something or stop whining.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[ChienAndalu]

For the truely heinous stuff like that shake a baby to death iPhone app that was in the news lately, existing laws should be brought to bear if applicable.

GTA?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[toriver]

I can buy Blownload's "Ultravulgar" from iTunes. All songs are, naturally, labeled Explicit in red letters, warning me the lyrics may be objectionable.

Why couldn't the exact same system be applied to the App Store?

But microsoft is evil?

[thc4k]

Imagine Microsoft selecting what apps may be installed on a windows computer. Sure, the scale is much bigger and smartphones are tied very tight to a particular os, but the essence is that Apple can decide what apps can be installed on hardware you've bought ... i think Microsoft got sued for *alot* less. Has really nobody sued them over the appstore yet or did i simply miss it?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[jez9999]

I completely agree with this. I seriously wish the iPhone would die a horrible death; it is mildly popular (in some geographical regions) despite being horrendusly expensive and locked down, because it looks flashy and 'cool', and is marketed a lot. People need to stop getting distracted by that.

What you have to realize is that Apple came into this mobile market pretty late. There were already a few contenders, most notably Nokia, that had been producing quality devices for quite a while. But the first thing that most probably went through Jobs' mind when he envisaged an Apple mobile device was not, 'how can we make it best for customers and developers?' It was, 'how can Apple make the most profit out of this with the least effort?' He came up with the idea of the iPhone app store. Promote the iPhone a lot, sell it for a fortune to cover those costs, force people to release apps with Apple's blessing through their app store, and sit back and wait for the profits. Oh, and as a side benefit, Apple can censor what apps they want, as part of their lust for control. (Yes I do have a problem with a company controlling even their own hardware when you've paid to BUY it.) Worse, they actually promote their 'app' model as being some kind of a virtue, as if other sophisticated devices can't do apps. They can, and they don't have to go through a fucking Apple website.

Me, I'm hoping that the Nokia N97 is a real iPhone-killer. Quite similar to the iPhone in many ways, has a touchscreen, a ton of functionality, Flash Lite 3 can be embedded in the browser so you can do interactive apps and streaming video/audio WITHOUT spending big time.resources to learn the specifics of the particular mobile platform being targetted (dumbass iPhone-specific apps), runs Symbian, and it's by Nokia, who don't have such a megalomaniac interest in locking the thing down so you have to go thru them for everything. And it even looks quite shiny, too. Buy Nokia, people! (the only wish I have is for it to have a stylus with it, but I guess you can't have everything)

And before you mod me down, think: is anything I've said here untrue or illogical?

Studio != studio

[tepples]

Just being a touch pedantic here, but Trent does indeed record his music in a recording studio -- it's just probably one he built himself, such as Le Pig Studios. What he doesn't have any more is a major record label -- he now releases under his own label, The Null Corporation.

In movies, "studio" means something close to what "label" in music means. What music and TV call a "studio" is closer to what film calls a "sound stage". The phrase studio system made me think Sebilrazen just slipped and used movie terminology.

I think the restriction is going to help and hurt

[rdean400]

Parents who don't want their children having easier access to objectionable content will find this move desirable. If the kids want it bad enough, they'll find a way to get it, but there's no reason to make it easy.

On the other hand, for those to whom this reeks of censorship, this is going to drive people to competing platforms, like Android and webOS, whose App Stores are permissive in their policies. NiN could set their own App Store up for Pre.

We're shakin' a baby now

[tepples]

I understand Apple's position to a certain extent, after the whole baby-shaking incident, but

Does this mean "Twist and Shout" by the Beatles, with lyrics misheard as "We're shakin' a baby now", won't go on iTunes Store?

NIN vs. Outhere Brothers?

[tepples]

"I want to fuck you like an animal / I want to feel you from the inside" is deliberately one of the most inflammatory chorus lines ever seen in the mainstream

But how does it compare to "Fuk U in the Ass" by the Outhere Brothers?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[syousef]

Unfortunately while Nokia does do some stuff very well their quality has been going down of late and they have a habit of ruining device with stupid design decisions. (eg. 8GB built in RAM and no card slot on the n95 special edition, but only accessible via USB 1.1. What the fuck????). Another example. I love my 6220 classic (despite the stupid reuse of model numbers - the 6220 without the classic in the title is a much older phone). However it likes to randomly reboot on occassion. Sometimes while in mid conversation.

Also both Symbian (which requires signing of apps in it's latest editions) and Nokia do in fact like to lock things down.

Still better than Apple.

Cry Babies

[Anonymous Coward]

You people need to quit crying and deal with it. If Apple owns it and has rules and maybe a few morals so be it. If you hate apple so bad quit using their products. You're just a bunch of PC loving loser's. Go back to using windows crap.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[tepples]

Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve content.

Then which computing platform with SDTV output as a standard feature should not be fucked?

Decline in number of players per PC

[tepples]

I know it's trendy to bash PC gaming but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

PC games used to support one player on a keyboard and one player on a joystick. Examples included Wacky Wheels and Atomic Bomberman. Nowadays, even with the ability to connect eight or more USB joysticks, major PC games tend to support only one player per machine, using a keyboard and mouse, expecting other players to buy separate PCs and plug them into a local area network. I know a lot of families with a PC and a TV who would rather buy one game console and three extra controllers than three extra computers for players 2-4 and three extra copies of each game.

Re:Decline in number of players per PC

[drinkypoo]

Nowadays, even with the ability to connect eight or more USB joysticks, major PC games tend to support only one player per machine, using a keyboard and mouse, expecting other players to buy separate PCs and plug them into a local area network.

No, they expect other players to have other PCs.

Remember, video games are sold to people with money, and people with money have a PC per member of the household. People without money aren't interesting to video game publishers.

Clearly, there is a market for both. Oddly, many of us own both.

Personally I have console games because of the used console game market. But YMMV. I HAVE seen moms buying their kids a console for the same reason.

Re:Decline in number of players per PC

[tepples]

People without money aren't interesting to video game publishers.

Then why do video game publishers produce E-rated video games based on a television series that's rated TV-Y or TV-Y7? By law, kids under 13 have almost no way to earn money.

I HAVE seen moms buying their kids a console for the same reason.

Then how should independent video game developers gain access to the market of moms?

Re:Decline in number of players per PC

[drinkypoo]

People without money aren't interesting to video game publishers.

Then why do video game publishers produce E-rated video games based on a television series that's rated TV-Y or TV-Y7? By law, kids under 13 have almost no way to earn money.

If you don't know the story of Barbie and advertising to children, you are unqualified to contribute to this discussion in this way. If you do, then you are trolling.

Then how should independent video game developers gain access to the market of moms?

I don't know, I've been trying to get access to the market of moms for ages.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[janopdm]

as well as giving Apple the ability to retroactively change their minds and kill apps on paying customer's phones

This is intended only to stop exploits. Apple didn't nuke any application so far, even those that have raised hell with telcos like Netshare (which I bought and still use).

Why do developers put up with this kind of draconian control by a third party over their own apps?

Apple decided to keep the Appstore at PG-13 rating. Is that draconian control? The list of rejected applications is fairly small (iPhone Graveyard lists only a dozen), and relates to copyright infringements, offensive stuff, or deal breakers for telcos. Even when rejection rules are unclear (which yes, it's utter bullshit), the Appstore is great in terms of revenue and meritocracy marketing. That and that developing for one phone is better than trying to fix your program for a dozen J2ME & Android profiles (it may be standard but you are developing for phones with different capabilities).

Not much gets done in the real world if you don't accept some kind of compromise.

Community Games vs. App Store?

[tepples]

For one, "most consoles" do not need hack and mod to run homebrew.

My source says Wii is just 2.6 million consoles short of outselling Xbox 360 and PS3 combined. And there is no official Community Games or Linux program for Wii; warioworld.com says you need a corporation, a leased office, and a previous title on another platform to qualify.

You can write your own games, TODAY, for the Xbox 360 using Visual Studio

If you buy a computer capable of running Visual Studio. The hardware has to be new enough, and the operating system has to be Windows. (XNA Game Studio is based on Visual C# Express, which fails in Wine.) The iPod Touch has the same restriction: you have to buy a Mac for $600 and a USB KVM switch for $60, even if you do get Xcode at no additional charge. In addition, as I understand it, if you've already written a PC game in C++, you have to rewrite all the physics and AI in C# because it's difficult to make C++ code meet the "verifiably type-safe" bar that XNA's use of the CLR requires. Rewrites introduce bugs.

and upload them to Xbox Live where you have access to a huge market approaching the size of the iPhone market. [...] the App Store model for the iPhone is the Wrong Way(tm).

The model of Creators Club (a $99 per year certificate to run homebrew) plus Community Games isn't too much different from the model of an iPhone SDK certificate plus the App Store.

The PS3 has Linux.

And, I'm told, less graphics performance than a PlayStation 1 due to the RSX lockout. Or has OpenGL on the Cell materialized yet?

The GPS thing is entirely about revenue streams ... it costs a ton of money to create digital maps, and TomTom like devices are a significant source of the revenue for them. Providing open APIs to do turn by turn GPS directions isn't going to happen whilst these devices pay the bills at the data providers.

How does Google Maps pay the bills?

Release same app on Symbian, J2ME, WinMO, Android

[Ilgaz]

If the application was released in ALL mobile platforms except iPhone/iPod soon as weeks, Apple would sure get the message.

I love developers whining about iphone app store and not sending out this message by releasing it to all competing platforms.

Their development tools are harder? Well, they are real smart phone operating systems with multi tasking and various other stuff not found in Apple's fake smart phone. In case of Symbian we talk about thousands of different models from many manufacturers. Needless to say, capable developers already release apps with features iPhone can't even dream off, without breaking system stability and battery. Fring, Opera, CorePlayer etc.

Nine Inch Nails - the music

[rs232]

That would brings back memories - if I only had any :]

another hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

The Iphone app for craigslist won't show photos from certain areas but you can see them using the iphone web browser.

Sure they aren't watching?

[Ilgaz]

I guess you changed it and posted it back getting approval.

What makes me wonder with such draconian app store policy, some idiots sitting there behind iMacs and give it ''pass'' ''go'' is: Isn't iPhone developers afraid to tell their mind on slashdot etc? How much of bad feedback we can actually hear from them?

I mean that idiot put in charge of allowing your app or not, from random pool, could read your comment and say ''Ha! Bastard, let me put you to waiting game a bit'' or find a issue which he wouldn't find if he didn't look that closely. If there was a (c) regarding polaroid paper, we would sure hear it as it is almost classical thing in movies, several apps, intros and some Apple iTools as far as I remember.

Such policies made me keep my Symbian devices and reject a free iPhone 3G. With 3 macs at home, I am free of iphone installing whatever .sisx I wish to Symbian.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[ghmh]

The app's existence is flawed... (according to Apple)

List of rejected apps and reasons why...

[janopdm]

Here is the (probably incompleted) list of apps rejected by Apple so far.

• Circumvent carrier policies: NetShare, CastCatcher, 0870
• Trademark conflict: BoxOffice*, Tris, Shaker
• Scam: I am rich
• Non PG-13: Slasher, Murderdrome*, Pull My Finger*, Knnife Music*, Prohibition 2*, Booty Caller, Tweetie*, NIN iPhone
• Duplicated functionality (aka killing the competition): MailWrangler, Podcaster
• Use of undocumented API: Peeps
• Defamatory: Obama!, Obama Trampoline
• Not standard UI: The odyssey
• Unknown reasons: Voice Notes, iFartz, Teto

Those marked with an asterisk were reinstated or modified to fit Apple policy. For NetShare and "I am rich", I'm guessing the reason since no explanation was given by Apple.

If you know a rejected App not listed here, notify Peter Hosey at the iPhone Application Graveyard .

They reject everything for stupid reasons

[PlainBlack]

We were rejected because somehow Polaroid might object to our online photo sharing application. All Apple would say was:

"WebGUI Gallery appears to include features that associate with POLAROID or resemble Polaroid photographs. Polaroid has previously objected to other applications that include such features and believes that they infringe its rights."

We don't mention Polaroid, we don't produce physical pictures. The only thing that could be construed as being related to Polaroid is the template that we used on the web site, which has a white border around the photograph. So if now all white bordered photographs resemble Polaroid's IP, I think that the whole world is in trouble.

Re:Studio != studio - Color me offtopic

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear tepples,

It's nice to see someone trying to bring people together, instead of the usual flaming / pissing contests.

I wish we had more people like you in the world.

Peace,

Mr AC, from sunny Mtl.

Visual Studio paid edition required

[tepples]

How about Windows Mobile?

How about 1. the fact that you need the paid (not Express) version of Visual Studio to target Windows Mobile, and 2. networks that lock their phones so that you can't run any app that isn't signed with a Mobile2Market certificate?

Re:Visual Studio paid edition required

[shutdown -p now]

How about 1. the fact that you need the paid (not Express) version of Visual Studio to target Windows Mobile

Yes, and what about it? It's a one-off price, not a yearly subscription or any other similar scheme to relieve you of your money on a periodical basis. The price is $250, which isn't exactly cheap, but if we're talking of any kind of commercial application development here (which, I believe, was the context originally), then it's cheap enough.

networks that lock their phones so that you can't run any app that isn't signed with a Mobile2Market certificate?

Networks do such things with all kinds of phones, unfortunately. The best I can advise is 1) find one which doesn't, and if that fails then, 2) move to a place/country where such exist. Judging by this comment, I'm assuming that you're in U.S. - in which case it's no surprise that you're getting screwed, and at that point, frankly, the OS on your mobile is the least of your worries. Or you think they aren't going to lock Android? Ha...

Re:Visual Studio paid edition required

[R3d M3rcury]

Good point. It's not like you have to pay anything to develop for the iPhone.

The objectionable content...

[Anonymous Coward]

is Nine Inch Nails.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[friendofthenite]

Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve content.

If Apple's app store rules bother you then don't buy an iPhone; why do you need to whine about it?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[0xdeadbeef]

To convince other people of what a mistake it is to support Apple. Is that the part you don't like, fanboy?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[Anonymous Coward]

You actually think that TomTom creates its own maps? Google*? Microsoft? Its all licenced content.

* Exempting Streetview, of course.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[WNight]

Apple decided to keep the Appstore at PG-13 rating. Is that draconian control?

Um, yes. Considering they lock the phone down so that you can't go anywhere else.

If they just didn't want to sell certain apps then more power to them, but when they set themselves up as the monopoly dealer things that would otherwise be acceptable aren't. Now it's not that the iPhone is a cool device and Apple is just a family-friendly place to get one, but that the iPhone is itself crippled because of Apple's excessive market control.

Behind the times

[Anonymous Coward]

Recently I have had an increasing number of different people tell me that I should tap out some software and submit it to the Apple AppStore. Everyone claims that this is going to make me rich, famous, and surrounded by ridiculously beautiful women. However, I find all this confusing- what's the big deal with this AppStore? Why is everyone jumping on board? Many of the linux distributions have had an equivalent of 'AppStore' for many decades- such as the "apt" system in debian, or yum and yast among others. What more, the software in those repositories tend to be free, and those that aren't "free" are just licensed 'nonfree' and don't actually cost anything for an average user, so what difference does it make to them anyway? Is there something I'm missing?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[friendofthenite]

No, I don't own an iPhone personally; the part that bothers me is the endless parochial moaning on this site about proprietary technology. If open platforms are as much better as you seem to think, then Android or something else would be cleaning up. The reason they aren't cleaning up is that, like a lot of open source technology, they simply aren't as good as the proprietary alternatives.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[0xdeadbeef]

I never said anything about what is better or worse, according to any criteria. What I said is that people should not support Apple. You and your ilk fixate on popularity, and it bothers you that there people who don't like what is popular, for reasons completely orthogonal to what makes it popular. You would like us to shut up, to stop providing evidence that contradicts Apple the brand: Apple the renegade, Apple the artistic, Apple differently thinker. Because, who knows, if people recognized Apple as a censor and ham-fisted control-freak, it might undermine the marketing message. That endless, obnoxious, marketing message. How dare we counter a billion dollar ad campaign with our "parochial moaning". Don't we know that commercial speech is reserved for corporations?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[metamatic]

Yeah, speaking as a Mac user for decades, I agree: fuck the iPhone.

Deliberately crippled locked-down hardware is not appealing. I'm sick of people choosing to develop for the platform, and then whining when Apple screws them over. Hey, answer the cluephone: never develop for a locked platform unless you like greasing up and bending over.

I hope something kills the iPhone. Either Android, or the Palm Pre, as it doesn't look like BlackBerry are going to manage it.

Either that, or I hope Apple opens up the iPhone like it ought to be, so they can sell a ton more. But I can't see that happening either. They'd rather have total control over a niche product, than open up the platform and take over the market. It's 1984 and Mac OS all over again, in fact. You'd think Steve would have learned by now, but apparently not.

I hate to say it...

[flyneye]

I really hate to say it now that I'm older and less prone to strongly opinionated slogans and more open minded. But,...
"Friends don't let friends drive Mac"
          Let's examine this thought a second before casting it away as drivel.
          As long as I can remember Apple/tosh has had an iron grip over what its users can or can't do (for their own good).
        It makes me think of buying a car with a governor set at max speed limit and the hood locked shut forcing me to get mechanical work done at their special approved store. While this may be fine for someone who can afford not to think about DIY ,it is too pricey for me and insulting to my intelligence as an entity able to think and act on his own behalf. I could see how this might appeal to masochists and those needing a strict overlord so it surprises me to see crApple censoring NIN sado/maso over its own rather than embracing Reznors distinct example of "Think Different" .
          Hmmm.., "Think Submissive", perhaps..
I guess my problem is failing to understand why anyone would put themselves through this for what will quickly be surpassed as last seasons fashion for more friendly ,less expensive competing hardware.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[friendofthenite]

People liking non-mainstream products doesn't bother me at all; I'd be thrilled if free software like Linux or Gimp were viable alternatives to the expensive industry standards. Part of the reason these products fail to match up, though, is the type of attitude I described before -- open-source fans are too preoccupied with their disapproval of large corporations to understand what's actually wrong with the open-source offerings. I'm not trying to flame, but I think your comments typify this kind of attitude -- you dislike Apple and their marketing strategy so much that you can't appreciate that, for all their censorship and iron-fisted control, they offer some extremely good products.

USA is 2/3 of Anglophonie

[tepples]

Your main mistake is that you only consider the U.S. / North American market, not worldwide.

I'd consider it a forgivable mistake for developers and analysts whose first language is English. Three out of four people who live in English-speaking developed countries live in Canada or the United States, whose combined population handily beats those of New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, and the UK combined. Or are you talking about India, which uses a very different Hindi-influenced dialect of English?

Re:USA is 2/3 of Anglophonie

[shutdown -p now]

I don't think it matters that India has their own dialect of English - English-language products are still sold and widely used in India, in pretty much all European countries, Russia, and half of Asia. In other word, the market for your English application is much larger than those people whose first language is English.

And in Europe in particular (and that's 400+ million people, remember), the numbers are already very different from U.S./Canada.

Become an expat (not the parser)?

[tepples]

if we're talking of any kind of commercial application development here (which, I believe, was the context originally), then it's cheap enough.

Requiring that all application development be 1. commercial and 2. performed with one specific tool published by a convicted monopolist is "appeas[ing] some entity that really needs you more than you need it," where "some entity" is Microsoft. Or what would you recommend for development of Free or non-commercial applications for Windows Mobile?

if [finding a network without a lockout chip business model] fails then, 2) move to a place/country where such exist.

To what country would you recommend that an English-speaking U.S. citizen move?

Re:Become an expat (not the parser)?

[shutdown -p now]

Requiring that all application development be 1. commercial

It is not required. It was (I believe) the context in which the discussion took place, but there's nothing in VS license that prohibits you from making free-as-in-beer, or even FOSS, applications. For that matter, a lot of Win32 FOSS apps are compiled with VC++.

2. performed with one specific tool published by a convicted monopolist is "appeas[ing] some entity that really needs you more than you need it," where "some entity" is Microsoft

As opposed to appeasing a different entity, namely Apple? At least MS won't restrict what you can write for their platform and how you can distribute it. And WM development certainly not any less documented than iPhone SDK.

Again, I think you've missed the original context. You might want to look at the first post in the thread, and at one of the replies, which spawned this thread. So the OP doesn't want to use iPhone SDK because of all the restrictions, but finds Android to be poorly documented. In response, I've named one particular platform which, to the best of my knowledge, is documented just as well if not better than iPhone, but is much less restrictive otherwise.

To what country would you recommend that an English-speaking U.S. citizen move?

Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, to name a few nice places. Of course, nothing stops you from learning another language, either - plenty of immigrants to U.S. do just that ;)

Re:Become an expat (not the parser)?

[tepples]

there's nothing in VS license that prohibits you from making free-as-in-beer, or even FOSS, applications.

Nothing in the license, other than the fact that I failed to think of any way to recover the $600 cost of said license.

Again, I think you've missed the original context.

The context is that someone recommended Windows Mobile, which has "only" the Java trap, compared to the iPhone that has both the lockout chip and the Java trap. Sure, I get your point that a Java trap alone is preferable to a lockout chip, but both get in the way of porting free software to a platform.

Re:Become an expat (not the parser)?

[shutdown -p now]

Nothing in the license, other than the fact that I failed to think of any way to recover the $600 cost of said license.

"It's about freedom, not about price", right?

Of course, if it's actually about price, too, then you can always try CeGCC.

The context is that someone recommended Windows Mobile, which has "only" the Java trap, compared to the iPhone that has both the lockout chip and the Java trap. Sure, I get your point that a Java trap alone is preferable to a lockout chip, but both get in the way of porting free software to a platform.

If your goal is running a platform exclusively (or even just mostly) with free software, then, apart from OpenMoko, I don't really know any options. All others are proprietary, and closed-source to lesser or greater extent. I don't see a big difference between, say, Symbian, WinMo, and Android in that respect. At least you can actually write your own apps, and run them freely, without "jailbreaking" on all of them - which is about as good as it gets presently.

And, of course, we all know what OpenMoko turned out to be...

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[syousef]

you dislike Apple and their marketing strategy so much that you can't appreciate that, for all their censorship and iron-fisted control, they offer some extremely good products.

Nope. They offer good marketing. The perception is that their products are good. Take a look at the reviews and you quickly realize that their products have all kinds of issues and aren't that great. I bought 2 iPods a few years ago and they've been nothing but trouble. One's got a crappy click wheel. The other scratches if you look at it. I rarely buy Apple but each time I have, I've regretted it.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[syousef]

If Apple's app store rules bother you then don't buy an iPhone; why do you need to whine about it?

Because last I checked, this was an Internet discussion board and if I don't like something and wish to discuss it I can?

I could throw your own weak logic back at you: If you don't like what I'm saying, don't read my posts. Why do you need to whine about it?

Of course the same applies. You can express your opinion just as freely as I can. Does that not suite your little sheep like censorship infested mind?

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[friendofthenite]

I realise this is an open discussion board, but it would be nice to read comments with a bit more value than 'fuck Apple'.

Apple is known to be uneven with approval

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is one pretty clear example:

http://www.iphonedevsdk.com/forum/business-legal-app-store/16314-apple-playing-favorites-developers.html

dictionary rejected for defining words

[Anonymous Coward]

My dictionary app got rejected on a bug fix point update because it defines curse words. Nevermind every version before it did that, and nevermind the fact that dictionay.com app does the same thing.

I now have a app that has about a months worth of work in it, and it is completely uselss. I can't use the code anywhere else, and have deemed iPhone development a waste of time.

Lesson learned.

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just respond to a copypasta?

Oh, rhetorical question.

Apple sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

I know Trent Love Mac. But, they are a control hungry company. They like to tell you what you can and can't do with your own devices. The iPhone would be a great thing if they would just give the user the freedom to do what they want with it. But, they think that the user is to stupid to make decisions themselves and they want to nickel and dime you to death.

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Threaten Customers
2. ???
3. Profit

Only he forgot to fill in (2) with 'take money from them'

I bet he won't.

[InvisiBill]

Trent didn't release the last album on iTunes. Or the one before that.

Re:I bet he won't.

[InvisiBill]

Bah, I see The Slip there now when I click on Artist - NIN, but it doesn't bring up any songs in the results when you search for "Nine Inch Nails"...

So? Release it anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why doesn't he just release it anyway, bypassing Apple?

That way everyone with jailbroken phones can still use it and he can give them a nice big middle finger.

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

off topic, but if my kid went to a "family friendly store" with lots of Christian Rock and the owner threatened him and called his friend a "little bitch" -- I wouldn't be sad to see that store go out of business. I don't want your family to starve, but I wouldn't want mine treated this way either. Maybe there's more going on than just piracy?

Just a thought.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[crafty.munchkin]

There were already a few contenders, most notably Nokia, that had been producing quality devices for quite a while.

Clearly your experiences with Nokia phones are nothing like mine. The last three Nokia's that I had were so fucking awful I swore I'd never use them again and go out of my way to make sure no one else does either.
Not that I'd use an iPhone either, but my wife just got one and she loves it. The reasons it's so cool are all the reasons I don't want one. Try explaining that to her though...
As for the NiN app being rejected, well, I have to wait till I go home to watch the youtube video and find out what is said by Trent. Whilst I've been a fan of NiN for many years, I do think his last few albums have been of significantly less quality than his early work. YMMV.

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[syousef]

I can't help that you become fixed on 2 words in a post that had many more.

Re: Already decided to shine on platform

[Douglas Goodall]

In regard to the question of why a developer would put up with Apple's desire to censor apps submitted to the app store, I for one have put my foot down. Although I signed up and learned what I needed to to write an app, I decided I was unwilling to invest the time to design and develop a piece of software when it could be arbitrarily denied. I am not a hacker, and the time it takes to use due diligence in the creation of software is non-trivial. If I invested 3-6 months of my time at normal software engineering pay rates on an app, and Apple denied it, I would be so mad it would be bad for my heart and blood pressure. "That's the breaks", would not do it for me. I cannot stomach the business model. I love my iPhone because of what it does, but as a platform for development, it is not for me. Apple has been a huge disappointment to me where the iPhone is concerned. I bought mine with development in mind. I will develop for the Apple Mac instead. I dislike Microsoft mored than Apple though.

Re: You forgot opera

[Douglas Goodall]

One of the more obvious ones was the opera browser which competes with safari. Apple wants to compete with Internet Explorer on Windows by porting safari there, but is unwilling to allow alternative mail or browsing programs. Since AT&Ts TOS only allow email and browsing and Apples developer license doesn't allow you to compete with programs they already supply, just what are you supposed to write that uses Internet or GPS?

iPhone app censhorship problems?

[Anonymous Coward]

None! Haven't written any for it. Don't plan to. It's very easy that way.

Oh dear. I hope Trent isn't driven to cutting

[SteeldrivingJon]

OT: After hearing Cash's version of 'Hurt', Reznor's version just sounds like a whiny little emo twerp.

Re:Oh dear. I hope Trent isn't driven to cutting

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep shitting in your own mouth.

Kind of sad

[telax]

I've been thinking this a lot. I think the americans are quite sad people with things like nudity and cursing being so big things. Everybody knows what comes out of a persons mouth if you *bleep* them. And everybody knows that Janet Jackson has boobs. Making them big things just makes them even bigger. (Plz, don't feed the troll :) Good thing finnish people aren't like that.

Re:Kind of sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off, asshat.

Politically correct version

[telax]

Do like they do on the discovery channel for every platform?

Can't Trent just change the lyrics?

[commodoresloat]

It should be a song about cooking rather than alienation...

"I wanna wok you with some vegetables!!
I want to taste you in a stir-fry..."

Re:Fuck any platform where the vendor must approve

[m.ducharme]

It gets me farther from Jobs?

Re:I own a record store.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sob-stories and melodramatic Orwell quotes aside, maybe your store is failing because everyone finally figured out that you sell shitty music.

Apple has no monopoly on PDA phones

[tepples]

Developers have the choice of different outlets to sell their iPhone applications if Apple reject them?

Yes. It's called porting to Google Android, or porting to J2ME+MIDP, or porting to J2ME+BlackBerry, or porting to Windows Mobile. Apple has no monopoly on PDA phones.