Slashdot Mirror
Switching To Solar Power, One Year Later
ThinSkin writes "Slashdot readers may recall Loyd Case's series of articles illustrating his experiences after switching to solar power for his family home. Loyd shared his one month update, a six month update, and now finally concludes his series after one year of solar power. Despite the $38,000 initial cost for the setup, Loyd is very optimistic after a $3,000 savings in one year, meaning that in about 12 years he will break even — though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors. Other reasons such as feeling 'green,' increasing the property value of his house, and the 'spousal acceptance factor' all support Loyd's decision on why he'd do it all over again if he had to." The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.
ROE is a much better way of calculating economics than "payback time," by the way
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
So maybe it'll pay for itself in 12 years, but how long before those panels need to be replaced? That's what we really need to know in order to decide if he's actually saving money.
Doesn't the panels degrade over time, and produces less electricity as they age?
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
The whole solar argument still has to grapple with its high up front costs. Doing calculations on money savings with such a long time to "break even" means that you need to take into account the time value of money. Even using a small interest rate such as 4.5% as an example (which is the cost of capital of a bank's home equity loan that I saw advertised recently near my house) means that he won't break even in over 19 years. Over 50% longer than the statistic the summary uses.
not getting a higher bill when you forget to turn off the lights every time you leave a room.
He sums the article up by claiming that his return will be sooner than 12 years based on changes in his electricity usage (like his daughter leaving for college). This is bad math. He would have changed his usage either way, so he can't really count those watts as impacted by his investment in the solar panels. Overall though it seems like he's getting a decent return on his investment.
Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90% of peak power at ten years, and 80% of power at 25 years. Yes, he's saving money.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I don't think return on investment is measured in the units you think it is measured in.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Given the instability of electricity prices I'm not sure that his experiences are going to be very representative for the next few years. Most people suspect that electricity prices will increase and if that occurs then solar power will make even more sense. But there's no hard guarantee. If the economy remains stagnant then electricity cost from the normal grid will likely remain near in cost to where it is now.
Because the money spent needs to be factored as, how much could he have made investing it and provided he didn't take a loan to get it all change the equation.
Throw in, what is the change in insurance cost, maintenance of said units, and then determine true savings. I think he will find it will not pay for itself within ten to fifteen years.
I also think that to speed up his return he needs an energy audit to find out how he is wasting electricity. Perhaps 4k to 5k power bills are the norm, but it seems excessive. I power a nearly 4000 square foot home in Georgia and through purposeful management of electricity and gas I might peak at 3600 if I get silly but tend to be below 3k for the year. My expensive months are winter months where I have to heat the place as gas cost me more than electricity I need to cool the home. Think, ceiling fans, zoned heating/cooling, and tolerance for 78 for summer temperature inside and 68 during winter. I also exploit cool nights with a box fan or two.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing. You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years. The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows. (His initial investment / Life time of the panels). If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example, he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh. He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day. One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.
Sorry, the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance. Here's the cold hard reality: until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, alternative energy sources will never gain traction.
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
Not being able to get online because you used up all the power by forgetting to turn off the lights every time you left a room.
Just another ignorant American.
Futhermore, Wikipedia has this to say about Solar Panels and how efficient they are at a certain time frame:
Solar panels must withstand heat, cold, rain and hail for many years. Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90% of rated power output and 25 years at 80%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_module
Looking back at the 6-month summary and seeing how drastic the difference is, I think that's all that's worth it, isn't it? Summer is when we run our air conditions (sigh) most and therefore, is typically the season when power grids are under their greatest stress. So even if the price goes up a great deal in the winter (and still considerably less than without the panels), I would think that this is still a great resolution to the problem.
Now the issue is just getting out the $$$ to pay for it up front and waiting for the investment to come back. You're not earning interest on that money....
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
Most of the time, if you care for your family, that's the #1 factor in your decisions. Unless your ambition is one of those short-lived, Hollywood marriages.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Affordable solar for little money down
If you live in CA, MA, or AZ, and have a roof with decent sun exposure, please check SunRun out.
I've got nothing to do with them; I just think they have a winning method of making the cash flow of solar very attractive.
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know. If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years. Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.
Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90% of rated power output and 25 years at 80%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_module
Now I read his initial article close to a year ago, so I don't remember what type he got, or if it even specifically mentions it. However his panels are rated to last 30 years. I imagine the warranty specifically mentions how much they will output as their life increases. It should be fairly obvious to see if it's putting out what it should be in those 30 years. If they don't, well, his warranty will cover that.
If solar technology and price were close to being competitive with conventional energy (coal in my case) then you would see many small solar deployments by consumers as well as large solar deployments by businesses and even power utilities themselves.
By being an early adopter, Loyd also helps the technology to gain acceptance, which helps everybody who chooses solar later on. Acceptance = economies of scale = lower price. Assuming energy prices stay roughly where they are or rise, people who come after Loyd will reach their break even point much sooner, even assuming further innovation doesn't cut the price of solar even more.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
This guy is happy his wife doesn't understand numbers and is pleased with a 10 year ROI?
... if the company in question is still around to stand behind it. I get a laugh out of roofers that offer 50 year guarantee on roofs when they know full well they themselves are unlike to be around by then. A lot can happen in 30 years.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
There always seems to be new breakthroughs in solar technology all the time. I wonder how much the cost of his original equipment is going to go down over the new few years. How much his original setup cost today?
He is obviously an early adopter, so I also wonder if he'll continue to just upgrade his equipment before getting a return from his investment. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but the person who might best benefit from this experiment is his neighbor (assuming they get any old equipment).
High start-up costs, VERY specific location prerequisites and 10 year ROE window?
Plus, it is not a commercial-sized solution, but a family home solution. No one said you can just scale it up.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The system would need to be 100% maintenance free to have a 12 year break-even. And, no on-the-grid based innovation can show up that provides less expensive power in those 12 years for the case to be valid. Still, the feel-good, do-good and be proud of what you accomplished factor make this interesting and satisfying.
Based on his power bills on all times other than the summer, it seems like he should have installed another panel or two. He could potentially have sold back the power during the summer months and had less utility bills during the winter. Since his energy pricing is tiered, it would make sense to knock off the high-end of use as much as possible.
If he's spending $3000 a year on electricity, I imagine there are lots of better ways to save money and conserve power. That's $250 a month. Even a small grow operation, electric heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer doesn't come close to that.
I've written a blog on my solar water heater which covers about the same year period as Loyd's solar panels about 100 miles north of Sunnyvale. Loyd's story is very useful to me as I've been debating if solar panels would improve the efficiency of the solar water heater. I'm still not sure this was a wise financial investment, but I do like how I get free hot water when the sun is out and the hot water never runs out (like with a tankless). Anyway, for those interested in solar water heating: http://suburbiasolarwaterheating.blogspot.com/
Check into your state and local programs. I live in Texas and there are some very significant incentives available. I copied this from http://www.solarpowerrocks.com/texas/
EXAMPLE 3kW SYSTEM HOME INSTALL IN AUSTIN TEXAS
So, if you were to install a 3 kW system that would be about $27,000 ($9.00/Watt x 3,000 Watts). In this example youâ(TM)d be in line to receive the maximum incentive of $13,500. The Fed offers a 30% incentive in the form of a tax credit with no cap. Assuming you have the tax liability, youâ(TM)re in line to deduct another $8,100 (30% x $27,000). Now, youâ(TM)re at a net cost after year 1 of $5,400. This is a lot more palatable. Just think, this energy upgrade is also property tax exempt and youâ(TM)ll realize an immediate property value increase of 20 times your annual electricity bill savings. In this example, a 3kW system will increase your property value by about $9,600 ($40/mo savings x 12 = $480; $480 x 20 years = $9,600).
I live in the US and just experienced my 3rd major hailstorm in 5 years (I consider golf-ball size and larger as major). My guess is that any of the 3 would have significantly reduced the 'return on investment'. It's kind of hilarious, because after the last hailstorm, SEVERAL HUNDRED new roofs are being installed along a 3 mile stretch. If all of those were solar, that would be SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$30,000 instead of SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$5000.
How long are these solar panels supposed to last? Does their efficiency fall off with age?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
He could've spent a fraction of that $38K to reduce his power bills to something closer to $100 per month. Better insulation, more energy efficient PSs in his computers, not leaving electronics on 24/7, change out to CF bulbs, and so on -- seriously!
He's going to hit Jevon's Paradox and end up not actually saving anything, IMO.
I'm more in support of community solar (have the HOA do it, or in a park, etc) which is more beneficial and lower cost. Mass solar.
While I am impressed at this project, all it proves to me is that solar is a LONG way off from a practical, cost effective implementation. Take a look at how much electricity was generated out of his system each month. He says numbers anywhere from 258 KWh (Dec) up to around 1100 KWh (July).
Last month (May), I used about 2500 KWh in my 2000 sq ft home. Yes, I am sure I can be more energy conscious but as you can see, the solar panels would hardly make a dent in my electricity bill compared to the initial investment cost. And what if it's cloudy like the recent 25 straight days of rain we had in May? Heck, 2500 KWh is not even my worst month. We still have July and August coming up. I can easily hit 3500 KWh during those months.
What that tells me is this: No matter how you slice it, the electric company in my area produces cheap electricity a LOT easier than I can on my rooftop.
The other two things I noticed are: 1) he consumes an unusually low amount of energy and 2) PG&E is screwing it's customers with those rates he lists. Wow. Go build some power plants, people. Your NIMBY attitude is making it more expensive.
Our family has PG&E and our monthly average for electricity is $60 or $720/yr.
We use less without solar panels.
WhatMeWorry!
I deployed solar panels when I replaced my roof in 2004; the total out of pocket cost after state rebates and federal and state taxes was $14,612. The system generates about 15 KwH on a good day; I live in a tract home in Mountain View, CA. So far, the panels have generated 19,225 KwH, which reduced my energy bill by $10,392 as of May, 2009. I've not seen the expected degradation in the power production, but it's difficult to measure due to changes in the weather -- it's entirely possible that 2004-2005 were cloudier than 2007-2008, or something like that. In any event, the system has delivered between 3819 and 3930 KwH every year. I'm extraordinarily happy with the way this has worked out.
I noticed that they put the solar panels on rails on top of his roof. What happens when he needs to redo his shingles? This needs to be done every 10-15 years (at least in Toronto, where my parents live).
Who takes the panels down, the rails and then re-installs the whole thing? Or does the fact that the shingles get less exposure to the sun and snow mean that they won't have to be redone for a longer period of time? (which would be another savings)
m
What the hell has he in that house?!!?
Last may I consumed 111kWh!! And that man 302kWh only from the grid, not counting the solar panels!
There are state program, federal incentives.
SO thre are avenues, but yes, they'll cost you money. Shocking.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What type of cells are these? Are they already these new super-cheap printable ones, including the lenses on top of them, and the higher efficiency types?
I will switch my car and house energy to 100% solar, in the next 10 years. No doubt about that. So I hope I will get these new cells. I mean think of a price of $3800 instead of $38000, and double the efficiency. Anyone not buying them would be stupid, because it would be the cheapest energy you could get.
I just hope they will print those cells on the cars too. In case you are far away from home, your batteries are empty, and maybe there isn't even a solar-powered power outlet in the area...
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Tax free municipal bonds currently pay around 4-5%.
So no...taxes aren't the problem. GP post still stands. Compound interest must be considered.
During his peak month (Dec) he used 1369 kw/hr, costing $333.96.
My peak month was July 08, using 3586 kw/hr, costing $368.53. (Pool and A/C in Oklahoma)
My total cost for the last 12 months was: $2393, his was $1460. And he has solar panels, and I've got a 28 yr old house...
Sadly this indicates how incredibly cheap energy is in some parts of the country. However much I'd love to have Wind power or Solar power (I've looked into it more than a few times), it makes no economic sense until the cost of energy goes way up, and the cost of the technology goes down...
I also live in Sunnyvale and my power bill is even less than his post-solar level. The reason is that I live in a small apartment instead of a house!
Living green is nice, but living small is far better.
Now I don't want to criticize to harshly, but I think he could have done been much more green for less money. Now the obvious thing he could do would be to downsize his house once his kids are a ways. How big of a house do two people need.
Apart from that there are several other cheaper things you can do. I have tried to "Green" up my house a lot too, however I live in Minnesota so solar panels are even a worst investment. But here goes.. list of cheaper green things that I do.
1. When a bulb goes out I replace it with a CFL. hen can be expensive so when I see them on sale for a $1 each I grab a few. I do not recommend replacing all you light bulbs at once because that gets expensive, but when one goes out, go for it.
2. New windows - this was my most expensive energy improvement. $9,000, but it did make my house quieter and drop my heating bill by 45%... My old windows will really bad.
3. My furnace and A/C.... probably don't need that efficient of a furnace where he lives, but in Minnesota, I am rocking the 95% efficient furnace. The furnace and new windows dropped my worst heating bill (January) from $240 to $105. I save between 500 and 600 a year in heating. (Again my windows were REALLY bad)
4. Whole House Fan.. I got one from http://www.airscapefans.com/
You turn off your A/C at night, and pull in fresh air. It uses much less power than you A/C, on low the smallest model only uses 38 watts. And for a cost between $500 - $1300, they do not hurt the wallet too much.
Well anyway..
Low up-front in MA, AZ, CA: SunRun
Bulk purchase groups: 1BOG
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
The power output on this is still pitiful. His system is supposed to give him 8,721kW hours per year (see his installation article). So that means the numbers work out like this if you wanted to know how much you could power from such a setup.
(((8721 kW) * 1 hours) / (365 * 24hours)) = 995.547945 watts.
That is less then 1 regular circuit (8.2962 amps on a 120 volt load). That is just about enough to power your fridge given that it cycles on and many times a day. 38,000$ is a lot of money to spend running your fridge.
The real reason this works for him is that he was taking it in the hoop from the power company and he has that "green mentality" where quality of life can be compromised in favor of "being green." He would have probably saved more in the long run if he invested the money (some where that didn't tank in the past year) and just turned off lights and switched to lower power devices. For the average geek power consumption of desktop PCs routers, battery changers and home entertainment equipment exceeds the the total amount of power generated over the year, its just not worth it for the average person.
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
So where did that $38,000 come from? Did it just drop out of the sky?
Assuming you have to borrow the money, you have to subtract the interest costs from whatever savings you get.
If the loan was for 8%, he's losing money.
And don't forget that he probably took advantage of some state or federal rebates. That only works well for the individual iff only a few people take advantage of it.
Overall, the numbers don't look very promising.
These questions have already been asked like 50 bajillion times.
That aside... His panels are insured for 30 years. Typical panels are guaranteed to operate at 90% efficiency after 10 years and 80% efficiency after 20-25ish years.
The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.
Things like that is why I have Repaginate installed, and for sites where I use it regularly, I keep a special style in Stylish that removes the redundant information. So far I just use that for Amazon.com when looking through upcoming DVD releases by date, identifying what classes to suppress using CSSViewer.
Before using Stylish, I used EditCSS + CSSViewer to build the rules I needed. It's been awhile since I've needed to build new rules.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Solar panels on the roof are great, and if I lived in a hotter climate I would probably look into buying some, but please not use this story as support for "we don't need centralized energy generation". I'll show you why. Look at the chart "monthly output" on this page: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2338837,00.asp
In December, the panels generate only about 20% of what they do in July. A five-fold variation is a BIG one. He obviously could not disconnect himself from the grid - he had to rely on an external power source during the whole winter. There is no storage technology to alleviate this - right now you simply cannot store large amounts of energy for 6 months with anything resembling decent efficiency. That's why we need a mix of energy sources, and it's rather unlikely that we will ever be able to satisfy our energy needs with 100% renewables.
Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
If he had put $38,000 in the market 12 months ago, it would be worth a lot less.
He has a near guaranteed rate of return of 7.8% which is the average for the stock market.
Further, he doesn't have to pay taxes on that return (it's money not spent, not money earned).
When he retires, he won't have to take $4,900 a year out of his 401k/ira (and pay $900 in income taxes) to pay his power bill. (and that only gets higher going forward-- 50% income tax is possible as we struggle to pay for social security in 15 years).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I takes about as much energy to produce a solar panel as it will generate in it's lifetime. It's not "going green" at all, just an intelligent way of passing off an expensive product to a populace that doesn't understand. Shielding from heat while generating power with solar panels in the summer makes great sense, but that is a niche solution for one energy problem.
All I keep seeing around here is the depreciating power generation of solar panels... blah blah blahh...
It takes maybe an hour of your time, and ~$100-200/panel to replace 20 panels.
If in 15 years, he buys new panels, with better efficiency, for 4k, and an hours worth of his time, he's just reset his investment with a MUCH better payoff. The cabeling, and inverter will not fail that fast. The inspection won't change for a replacement. There'll be virtually 0 costs.
I have 600w of grid tied, net & production metered solar on my house. The coolest part? I did it for almost nothing. Bought everything on E-bay. Hardest part was complying with code, which looking back was really just a mere nuisance.
This isn't rocket science. If you pay someone to do it, they have to charge a ton because they are
1. Licensed electricions,
2. It's a business
3. they require certain bonds and insurances.
If you do it yourself (can you understand parallel & series circuits and do you know how to count, add, multiply, etc volts, amps & watts? you're qualified!) to your own house, you can get a system for MUCH less than 50K. bonus as your ROI is better, even better is that it makes more extreme lattitudes viable.
It's not ton's of $, but it does keep the house cool.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Firstly, like Gospodin (547743), I looked at the headline story and smelled a rat in the methodology. Internal Rate of Return (IIR) (aka "Time Value of Money") works to 'normalise' the figures to "today-dollars". Not only is there an efficiency reduction, the value of $3,000 now is reduced by the rate of inflation over the period, which on face value was not counted by the article's author with the effect that the pay-back period is lengthened. I'll accept the figures by Gospodin (547743).
Secondly, I'm in Australia, where the Federal Government has just abruptly cancelled two rebate schemes and thereby markedly increased the cost of solar systems to consumers. There is some politics involved, but the consumer who was having a system installed in the last few weeks suddenly has a very significant real cost increase on the systems, and prospective customers are cancelling in great numbers. Great outcome!
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
It may have been a great investment. Lets see, he could put in a MM account and be getting 1% or he could have had it in the market and lost 30%. Timing is everything (Or he may have had it with Bernie and lost 100%)
Real men and women (and little fuzzy creatures from Alpha Centauri) use household fuel cells! :)
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
I had a solar water heater on my previous house. It was a huge waste of money. It added to my home insurance bill. It cost extra when I had the roof replaced. I had to have it serviced every few years (replace the anti-freeze). When I sold the house, I had it serviced and the bill was $250.
I knew I couldn't have been the only person here who thought that way.
From the original article about the installation itself, they use 17,400kWh per annum - about 47.7kWh per day. This is a staggering amount, even considering that they do work from home as well and have two teenage daughters living at home. By their own figures, their $38,000 solar installation only covers half that electricity (although about three quarters of the bill). As I'm sure NuShrike wondered, what the hell are they spending that electricity on? Do they run the air conditioner all the time? If so, wouldn't they be better off buying ceiling and wall insulation and some decent curtains?
My housemate has been considering a photovoltaic installation at home. (Since the Australian federal government suddenly pulled the rug out from underneath the $8000 rebate, I don't know whether he's still considering it.) By my measurements, he'll waste at least half of the electricity they generate on standby power for the computers and such, and nearly as much again on halogen downlights for the main living area. He's just not in the mindset that having PV power means being more responsible for electricity use. In other words, I suspect he believes that it will give him more electricity to spend as he pleases (invoking Jevons' Paradox, as NuShrike suggested), whereas the sibling post by hoojus shows how easy it is to develop the mindset of having less and using it more efficiently.
Of course, if you can save that amount of electricity, but without solar panels and for a fraction of the cost, it hardly seems worth bothering. You can still have both, though, even if it means a few new habits towards cleaning up after yourself.
Oh, and NuShrike, the idea of scaling renewable energy, rainwater catchment and the like for a community is a fantastic idea and one I have been hoping would see a bit more support. Let me know if you've got any ideas.
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
$3000/yr in electricity? That seems excessive to me. I live in the SE USA in a 3500 sq ft home and my annual electricity for the last 12 months was ... $955. That's with 2 servers with external arrays and monitors running 24/7 in addition to a few big screen TVs, and all the other household appliances running. BTW, those servers run 6 VMs each.
Only nuclear power makes sense in my region. Not enough wind or sunshine to support either of those methods. Good thing power is cheap here. Rock on COAL!
I guess Loyd lives in Cali? Only there is spending your money and government money considered a "savings." Going with solar water heating would probably make more sense.
Here's another way to view this. Take the simple fact that we "need" electricity and will pay for it one way or another. We can pay for generation by fossil fuels, or we can pay for it in investments in renewable energy. It's not so much how long it'll take to pay back, it's that since the money will be spent on electricity anyway, might as well put it towards solar or wind based electrical generation. At some point in time the financials break even, so you've spent money more wisely. You're also not entirely at the mercy of the utilities (read: rolling blackouts).
There's alot of factors at play here. For example, it takes energy to make solar panels. From what I've read though, the total energy output of modern solar cells far exceeds the energy needed to manufacture them. [Sorry don't have a link, but Google reveals all]
"To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing. You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years [when zombies rule the Earth]. The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows. (His initial investment / Life time of the panels)." This is very important when the zombie hordes attempt to take over your home... his solar powered electric fence is all that keeps them away from his family, except for his daughter who had the misfortune of going to college where the zombie infestation started in the first place. Anyhow, it is highly suggested that you reinvest the money saved back into an electric fence and expanding the entire solar panel installation along with a full and essential hydroponic system to keep fed during the long decades that it will take for a typical zombie infestation to work itself out. You'll need to expand the battery capacity at least ten to fifty times to make it though the nightmarish doldrums of winter months [fortunately the zombies move much slower then] and a ten fold expansion of the solar panels will increase the power generation then to the minimum needed to power the electric fences. In the summer the extra energy can be used to power a laser system to cut off zombie heads with corpse cleanup during the winter months. In The End Solar Panels can be a life saver.
Because investing BEFORE a stock market crash is a "representative time frame" too. The fact remains that over a long term investing in the stock market will give you 5% or more if you actually let it sit as a long term investment. On top of that it's capital gains so it's not taxed as highly as normal income.
If Cap-and-Trade is passed, Lloyd should expect it to by paid off in 3 years tops - and the rest of us are royally screwed.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This guy has fiddled with the numbers, and I would go so far as to say he did it deliberatly to make it look good. He makes no attempt at all to acutally work out how much he saved. He just takes last years power bill and this years power bill and says look I saved $3,000, that only true if he used the same amount of power both years. I doupt he did, I bet everyone in the family was conserving power, even subconsciously.
According to his own graphs he generated 8686 kilowatt hours of power, which he claims saved him $3,000. This comes out to 34.5 cents per kilowatt hour. So we are meant to believe that all his power was at top tier usage? If so he has the most expensive power company in the western world - 35cents US per kilowatt hour! God lord, I thought it was bad when my power went up 16% this year from 9c to 10.5c per kilowatt hour.
Sure solar might have saved him $3,000 but he could probably save $2,000 just by changing his power company or tariffs.
My stepdad set up Solar to heat the water in our house many years ago, and he's since recently improved it with newer and more panels and I still take cold showers every day.
I'm tired of this shit. The print version of sites was reliable for a long time. I wonder how many morons actually printed shit out though it was useful if you didn't want to keep clicking every two minutes.
The content just isn't good enough to for me to pay 2 cents for or spend 3 seconds clicking on a next link every 3 minutes fuck you, I'm not visiting that link at all.
Instead of attempting to convert sunlight to electricity. Simply use the heat.
Install a Heat Store or Heat Bank and use Solar thermal panels as a heat source for the store. You can also then add wood, gas, electric, whatever as heat sources to supplement the solar thermal panels.
For cooling. Use evaporative cooling, its 3-4 times more efficient than air conditioning.
The ROI and EROEI for solar thermal is far higher than for photovoltaics. Typically 5-7 year payback without subsidies.
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The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.
my tags
ExtremeTech always has that sucky layout, but I'm proud to mention that they are closing their doors in a week or two. This will mean the end of one of the many sites that spew 20-page articles that could have easily fit on two pages (and I never bother visiting).
Hopefully, the author of this article will find gainful employment at a site that DOESN'T hate it's users. The fact is, he's the only reason I've bothered reading an ExtremeTech article in years.
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.
cause the last I checked, my money deposited in "risk-free" accounts is getting somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5% interest in these days of rampant money printing. A 5%, tax-free return on a solar installation is looking like a mighty fine return right about now.
http://www.shadowstats.com/
As soon as any of the indicators go up (these are pretty reliable predictors of activity), the FED simply filters the money out of the banks, rates go up for daily business paper and money is more scarce.
ITYM the FED causes a recession.
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Timers make all the difference.
Last year my home used 622 kWh for the June bill.
This year June was down to 392 kWh!
I haven't noticed a thing.
My computers are on timers... The OS shuts them off before the timer does... then I have to use a timer since the bios doesn't have a wake at time feature... But I set them to power on after power failure.
I put a lot of things on timers now. I just wonder if I am actually wasting electricity putting a CFLs and particularly LED lights on a timer, suspect on the lower wattage ones the timer and the light may be about the same. But with lighting I just want it on without thinking about it.
But basically it's a 37% difference in kWh.
I did this after switching to the 3 tier time-of-use plan and last year's bill was $80.69 and this years was $36.20 for a 45% savings.
And no I'm not an environmentalist, I'm just so cheap I squeeze a quarter 'til the eagle screams
House is 7200 cuft (200 M^3) main floor. Full basement, located between Chicago, IL and Milwaukee, WI USA (42.7` north lat)
See the Pictures of the Flood of '08
I too have a solar hot water system. Mine uses evacuated tubes which are more efficient at capturing heat than your flat plate collectors (from what I can tell in your photo).
With the heavy amount of sun in TX, the solar thermal collector provides 100% of our hot water for about 8 months of the year (Apr - Nov). The coldest 4 months average about 50% of our hot water supply. In the summer the tank easily exceeds 170 deg F. As comparison, scalding temp is about 120F and most hot water heaters are set to 120-130F for energy conservation purposes. Don't worry, a thermostatic valve mixes in cold water at the tank's exit point so that the superheated water doesn't reach the faucet. Based on my rough calculations, the system will pay for itself in 6-7 years which is pretty good. After that it's money in my pocket!
Solar thermal has its optimal and sub-optimal locations, as with any resource. Northern states would not benefit as much due to the colder climates. I am always surprised in the winter when the system can get the water up to 90F when it's 35F outside (on a sunny winter day). But with lower temps and more overcast days in some northern climates, solar thermal would take alot longer to pay for itself. Now if they can just figure out a way to extract energy from snow...
Oh yea, my system is extremely efficient, when the sun is out. In the winter, if it's a clear day, the tank will easily get up to the cap of 165. The main issue is our location, about 30 miles east of bodega bay. In the winter there's just not much sun out. Still, even on a cloudy day, the tank will get up to 125-130. The flat collectors in the the picture have the copper tubes inside of them filled with glycol which cycles down to the water heater. I got this system specifically because I liked the look of the panels when compared to the alternatives. It's great to hear other's experiences with solar hot water. I'm expecting this year will be much more efficient than last year since I now know how to dial in the system a bit better.
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Yeah, try bending and routing that bigger wire. It's all fine and dandy, untill you thread it through conduit. Then it's CRAZY hard to put it in the shape you need it, so you either need to have bigger conduit, or smaller wire.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.