BlizzCon Keynote — New WoW Expansion, Diablo 3 Details

BlizzCon kicked off this morning with a keynote address that brought some major announcements for some of their games. First, World of Warcraft's third expansion, Cataclysm, was officially revealed. It differs from the previous expansions in that they will not be creating an entirely new continent for players to explore. Instead, the two huge continents from the original game will be going through a literal cataclysm, causing some zones to be destroyed, new ones to become available, and existing ones to be entirely revamped. Big news came for Diablo III as well, with the announcement of the Monk class and a trailer showing how it plays. More details for both games as well as StarCraft II will undoubtedly become available over the next few days, but read on for more about what we already know. If you have any questions, don't forget to post them here. Cataclysm will also be different due to the fact that the new level cap is 85 — a five-level increase, as opposed to the ten-level increases from previous expansions. That's not to say there is less content, but the idea is that each individual level will be more meaningful. There will be two new playable races for this expansion: Goblins for the Horde and Worgen for the Alliance. The disaster apparently strikes the Goblins hard, forcing from their lands and into conflict with an "unknown enemy," which the Horde helps them with. Meanwhile, the Greymane Wall has broken open, revealing the kingdom of Gilneas, the residents of which were turned into the werewolf-like Worgen, but were able to keep their human minds.

The revamped Azeroth will include updated dungeons — heroic versions of Shadowfang Keep and the Deadmines — as well as entirely new dungeons for leveling and endgame. It's not yet clear whether the old version of the damaged zones will still be around in some form, but look for an explanation in the next few days. Players will be able to use their flying mounts in the new Azeroth. The dragon Deathwing is making a return, and will serve as a major villain. In addition to the damaged zones, some will change in other ways — Desolace, which is currently a barren wasteland, will find new life from the water of the tidal waves, turning the land green. The more damaged zones will feature lots of lava and broken terrain. There will be new Battlegrounds, new Race/Class combinations (we saw a Troll Druid, Tauren Paladin, and Gnome Priest), a new profession called Archaeology, a guild leveling system, tons of new monsters and quests, as well as a new "character progression" system called "Path of the Titans."

From the Diablo III Monk trailer, you can see that the class seems to have an area-of-effect swing of his weapon, a way to reflect spells, and an attack that sprints between a bunch of enemies, hitting each of them. The monk also seems to be able to make enemies explode quite easily. And messily.

Comments

Huh?

[Misanthrope]

"Cataclysm will also be different due to the fact that the new level cap is 85 -- a five-level increase, as opposed to the ten-level increases from previous expansions. That's not to say there is less content, but the idea is that each individual level will be more meaningful. "

What does that even mean?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It means that you'll be spending an excruciating amount of time grinding to level cap, with less to show for it than before.

Re:Huh?

[flitty]

It takes 2x as much xp to level as it would have. So, it's Twice as meaningful. we all know it doesn't matter, since most time will be spent at 85 anyway.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It means Blizzard doesn't care about WoW anymore and it's chugging along on fumes.

WoW is pretty much dead as a game now, and really has been since WotlK imo, no idea why I played through Ulduar...

Can't wait for SC2/D3 though!

Re:Huh?

[SatanicPuppy]

Coupled with the whole "Path 'o Titans" thing, I imagine the levels will be different from your standard "1 more level, 1 more talent point thing."

There are a lot of things you can do with leveling outside the standard "grind xp until you puke" methodology...Maybe they're experimenting in that direction.

Re:Huh?

[aztektum]

They've come up with a way to make gaining 5 levels take as long as it took to gain 10 levels in the prior expansions.

Re:Huh?

[ZenDragon]

I think what they are saying is that they are focusing less on leveling past 80 and more on the character dynamics past 80. One thing I think would be very cool would be at level 85 or something, allow characters to train one extra profession, I think that would certainly renew some interst in some of the origional professions while allowing a new dynamic of character combinations. It would also probably help to bring auction house prices down as many people wouldnt have to buy everything they cant currently gather. I dont play much anymore, these days only to join my son who plays. I played pretty hard core for the first 3 years however so I saw a lot of content and level caps come and go. The only thing I disliked was that it always seemed like a race to level and gear up. Im hoping that announcement means that they have given that some thought.

Re:Huh?

[Trails]

Actually, leveling in WoW was never really the problem (well, the 30-40 stretch in the pre-expansion game was kinda a drag). It was once you hit the max level that you learned what grinding really means. Grinding rep, grinding raid instances, grinding for items, blech. Chased me away from TBC.

Re:Huh?

[brkello]

It means that each level will probably give each class major new abilities. In the original WoW, large changes came every 10 levels or so. They will just make each level give you something cool rather than spreading them out over multiple levels.

Re:Huh?

[pha3r0]

Holy crap again? I still havnt regained my soul from the 60-70 grind!!! Blizzard stop the insanity only you can release SC2 please save us from our endless struggles!

Re:Huh?

[SatanicPuppy]

Agreed, though the addition of repeatable daily faction quests and tabards and crap dropped that to a more bearable level.

The end game is where you get to stop pretending that casual gamers have a role in the game at all...Grinding faction is about the only way to get gear for the casuals, but it takes so much time, only hardcore people do it.

Re:Huh?

[teg]

Coupled with the whole "Path 'o Titans" thing, I imagine the levels will be different from your standard "1 more level, 1 more talent point thing." There are a lot of things you can do with leveling outside the standard "grind xp until you puke" methodology...Maybe they're experimenting in that direction.

Maybe they want to repeat the success of Trials of Atlantis in Dark Age of Camelot?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

By only adding 5 levels they leave room for more expansions. I am going to take a stab in the dark and say that level 99 will be the max eventually. 85+5+5+4, so 3 more expansions at a minimum.

Re:Huh?

[gknoy]

Some of the nice effects:

- Good gear: Your T8-grade gear, which many seem to have access to now, will make great leveling gear. I'd be surprised if you couldn't do l85 dungeons in a lot of them. (except as a tank, I imagine)

- Alternate rewards: While leveling, they can give rewards in terms of things other than gear and XP. They could give Marks of Whatever to let you BUY good gear (rather than receiving 15 different pieces of crap that you sell to a vendor), or give you plain money, or consumables, etc. (That reminds me ... make flasks for leveling. ;)) They could give you things/points/etc that would help you on this mysterious alternate leveling system, which I suspect will reflect role (healer, tank, melee dps, ranged dps) rather than class.

Talent trees, and the role of individual talents, seem to be changing, so I expect it won't be as simple as taking your current talents and adding 5 points to them. (In some cases, that makes for effects like "5% more damage", but other times it's something powerful like being able to get two powerful cooldowns or talented abilities which were previously separated by a lack of points.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

What it really means is that blizzard can't balance their talent trees for pvp/pve if they keep giving more points.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

- Alternate rewards: While leveling, they can give rewards in terms of things other than gear and XP. They could give Marks of Whatever to let you BUY good gear (rather than receiving 15 different pieces of crap that you sell to a vendor), or give you plain money, or consumables, etc. (That reminds me ... make flasks for leveling. ;)) They could give you things/points/etc that would help you on this mysterious alternate leveling system, which I suspect will reflect role (healer, tank, melee dps, ranged dps) rather than class.

So they're taking the rewards system from the City of Heroes architect missions and calling it their own? Nice Blizz, way to be an innovator.

Re:Huh?

[gknoy]

I don't know WHAT they aredoing; I merely said it was something they could. Not being at blizzcon, I can't really add new info to this. Sorry for the confusion.

Re:Huh?

[Daswolfen]

There were some Lv70 trinkets and other items that were good till you started doing heroic dungeons. I know I didn't replace some of my sunwell stuff until close to if not at 80.

Re:Huh?

[Foo2rama]

It means that Blizz is finally realizing that they have issues with levels... In order to make the levels better then the previous they have to have massive item inflation. In order to go to 90 weapons would have to start having plus 500 stats before buffs. This is not helped by the item stat inflation caused by arena seasons.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

each individual level will be more meaningful.

What does that even mean?

You mean how can you assign even more meaning than before to a few bits being changed on a server somewhere in reward for sitting performing repetitive actions for weeks on end? I'm with ya.... 2 x 0 = 0.

Re:Huh?

[Jurily]

- Good gear: Your T8-grade gear, which many seem to have access to now, will make great leveling gear. I'd be surprised if you couldn't do l85 dungeons in a lot of them. (except as a tank, I imagine)

Nope. Instances will still be designed with a minimum gear requirement in mind. It doesn't matter what tanks you have if the healers are weak, and there isn't enough DPS to beat the enrage timer.

Re:Huh?

[bonch]

Nope--there are no new spells for the classes.

Re:Huh?

[dAzED1]

I think it was lvl75 before I replaced my first item I had pre-wrath on my spriest, if I recall correctly. I had half the t6 set still at lvl79, and did just fine. Of course, I was leveling tailoring at the time, and made several 80 purples once I hit 80...

Re:Huh?

[SL Baur]

One thing I think would be very cool would be at level 85 or something, allow characters to train one extra profession.

That's an interesting idea, especially since I didn't read anything about raising the professional skill cap, which should come at level 80.

Probably the usual set of whiners would complain that it is forcing them to go back to low levels to skill up yet another profession. OK, not probably.

Re:Huh?

[SL Baur]

I am going to take a stab in the dark and say that level 99 will be the max eventually

Miss and you are likely to be eaten by a grue. The maximum level is apparently 255.

Re:Huh?

[oddfox]

The thing was just recently announced, today. How about we let some time pass before we try to definitively state what is and isn't going to be added or removed? It's not entirely unlikely that during the course of development new spells abilities and talents will be fleshed out.

Re:Huh?

[Gravatron]

Not really, your coul get tier gear from tokens. A heroic droped a fair number of them, so you had gear in no time. Raids still gave you better gear, but you could gear up enough from tokens to do pretty much any PUG raid or instance.

Re:Huh?

[fractoid]

Odds are it will take you much MUCH longer to get from 80-85 than it did to get from 70-80.

Why would you think this? It's been pretty constant at 80-100 hours or to reach the new level cap for the last two expansions. (60-70 and 70-80 both took ~8-10hours a level if you were doing it for the first time without using a mod such as QuestHelper). They've also sped up the low levels each expansion to keep it a pretty close to 240 hours (10 days played) to level a new character from scratch to level cap.

What I'm interested in is whether they'll just whack item level 300 gear on level 85 quests, or whether they'll come up with some new stat to invalidate all our current level 80 gear. Stat scaling certainly feels like it's getting a little out of hand, with tanks in full best-in-slot gear approaching 50000 hitpoints already. I guess they could just divide everything by 1000 and put a 'k' after it (like they're doing with the health displays on raid bosses).

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

. They will just make each level give you something cool rather than spreading them out over multiple levels.

HUH?

Re:Huh?

[l0cust]

I am both sad and happy that I have no idea wtf you are talking about.

Re:Huh?

[cml4524]

WoW is pretty much dead as a game ... I played through Ulduar...

And so did ten million other nerds with nothing better to do with their time, and ten million nerds will do it again with Cataclysm, which is exactly why it's not dead and exactly why Cataclysm will continue to suck the cash out of people's pockets for another year or two.

Re:Huh?

[achacha]

I think the problem is that people are always trying to reach the max level without actually having fun and when they get to max level people complain that there is nothing to do. 60-70 are very interesting levels if you spend time on the Outlands, there are like 10 zones with hundreds of quests that have a lot of story behind them. I did 6 levels in 2 zones by turning off the XP bar and actually reading the quest text and trying to have fun doing quests rather than just trying to get 70 so you can move to northrend and repeat.

The grind is your choice, try to stop and smell the flowers, there is a lot more to WoW than getting to max level in the shortest possibly time.

Re:Huh?

[digitalunity]

Exactly. Players with multiple characters race to the max level as quickly as possible and ignore the most fun aspects of the game.

I myself was victim to this with several characters during Burning Crusade and by the time my 3rd character reached level 70, the game was losing it's allure.

Since I have not played in over one year, I'm so far behind now that I have little desire to purchase any forthcoming expansions. Diablo 3 sounds very exciting and I will be sure to purchase that.

Re:Huh?

[sopssa]

I'm actually pretty tired of that, but the problem is that theres no fun content for lower level players either. I hate the 1-10 lvl grind, and its specially bad because there's no instances, dungeons, battlegrounds or arena teams for us still at that level. Not everyone has the time to play World of Warcraft 24/7, so we could we get something too?

Re:Huh?

[rcuhljr]

Nice and subtle, if I had points you'd get +1 Funny :)

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Holly shit .. lvl 1 -10 is like an hour or two for someone thats played before .. perhaps 5 hours for a newbie over the age of 12 ..

fucking ijit

Re:Huh?

[ottothecow]

spot on.

leveling and progressive questing was fun. once you hit the cap, you know that you have more content to experience (raids/heroics/whatever) but you can't get there as part of a story line as you level...you get there by grinding for rep, money, and consumables (most of which entails repeating the exact same thing every day rather than moving to a new zone as you progress). Stop with the expansions and make a WoW 2 already (or a WoS or WoD)

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

+5 insightful? that is not insightful. where is there insight in asking, 'what does that even mean?' informative at best. the responses to this question .might. be insightful, however.

/. should release an expansion where there are more expressive ways to mod a post and a new level cap of +7 so that each level will be more meaningful.

balls.

Re:Huh?

[Massacher]

same here. it was a race, but being a warlock it only took half the time plus until Wrath and even early Wrath we could solo pretty much everything, except some elites and bosses of course.

Re:Huh?

[ildon]

- Good gear: Your T8-grade gear, which many seem to have access to now, will make great leveling gear. I'd be surprised if you couldn't do l85 dungeons in a lot of them. (except as a tank, I imagine)

You mean like how I was still wearing T6 when I started raiding Naxx25? You mean like how people in T2.5/T3 were still wearing it when they started raiding Karazahn?

Not to mention that if the Trial of the Grand Crusader gear is any indication, we're already in the middle of the most ridiculous gear inflation in the history of WoW. "Valorous" T8 to "Heroic" T9 gear is a bigger gap than even T4 -> Sunwell gear.

In other words, high end raiding gear was already "great leveling gear", so your statement is pretty meaningless to begin with, and secondly, gear scales however they want it to scale because they can just do massive item level jumps whenever they feel like it. The first item you get from the first quest in Cataclysm could be 10x as good as the best item from Arthas' 25 man Heroic mode loot table, if they wanted, just through simple item level inflation, because item levels are not at all tied to player level.

"Only 5 levels" is literally meaningless for "how useful your current gear is for leveling". It's however useful they decide to make it (which historically tends to be pretty good if you're doing the very high end stuff). Period.

Re:Huh?

[mwvdlee]

It's just a number. For some reason everybody seems to look at it that can only ever be expended to 100 and no more. What would be wrong with a level cap of 200 in the future, instead of 100? Ideally (IMHO) the level numbers should be mapped to some sort of predictable "power" scale; i.e. if level 70 is N% more powerful than 60, then 80 should be the same N% more powerful than 70.

Re:Huh?

[Rakarra]

While the above poster is incorrect that there are no new spells, they went over in the game systems panel that the talent trees will not be extended this time. Your end-tree 51-point talents now will continue to be your end-tree 51-point talents in the expansion. They did say they want to add new talents in the thick of the trees to make them more interesting, and almost all of the old +stat talents are being removed.. that is the talents that were no fun to have (like +5% crit, +5% hit, etc) that people felt that they HAD to take. The first tier Fury warrior talent cruelty is going away, because it's boring and every warrior HAS to take it -- there are almost no builds that don't have it.

Instead, every talent tree will have a passive bonus granted to the character depending on how many talents are taken in that tree. A rogue with lots of talents in assassination would get a passive bonus to poison damage (just an example) while combat might have a flat damage increase or an increase in crit or hit.

Re:Huh?

[Rakarra]

Not to mention that if the Trial of the Grand Crusader gear is any indication, we're already in the middle of the most ridiculous gear inflation in the history of WoW. "Valorous" T8 to "Heroic" T9 gear is a bigger gap than even T4 -> Sunwell gear.

Just to nitpick, the T4 gear ranged from ilvl 115 to 125, while Sunwell gear was ilvl 159-164, a gap of 34-45. Valorous T8 gloves are ilvl 219, while the top hard-mode T9 is 258 a gap of.. 39. So actually you're pretty close now. I don't know if it's fair to compare hard-modes to regular gear though. The regular 25-man T9 is ilvl 245.

Re:Huh?

[ildon]

Nitpicking your nitpick: Icecrown is still coming, and 3.0 raiding starts at ilvl 200. We're already at a 58 ilvl gap, and that ignores the hard mode, no wipe chest rewards from Trial of the Grand Crusader. Assuming those are an outlier, if we use Ulduar -> ToC as a guide for ToC -> Icecrown, we're still going to see 26 more ilvls (at least) for 84 total. Even if we say 3.0 raiding starts at ilvl 213, that's still 71 ilvls for this expansion vs. 49 last time.

It's moot anyway, because like I said, they can just arbitrarily set the 4.0 max level tier wherever they feel it needs to be.

New 3D engine?

[Krneki]

I love WoW and always will (even if I don't play it now for 6 months), but the 3D engine is getting old. It doesn't matter if you have a new PC, it will still lag when too much players are in the same zone. I'd go back, but I need some new mind blowing sound and 3D experience, after all this is why we like PC games, always delivering top technology.

Good luck WoW.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Darkness404]

WoW survives for 2 reasons, one is the same reason as social networking, you have some friends on WoW who might only play WoW, so to move to a different game would mean losing them, and the other is time, there are people who have devoted nearly years of their life to WoW, even with a better MMO people will still play WoW because they are the top level, have good weapons, etc. they don't want to go back to level 1 and no items even if the game is more fun.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Krneki]

Maybe it's me or maybe it's the RP server where I used to play. But "stuff & level" means jack shit. I guess it's like real life, kids and dump people value material stuff, while other value the meaning of actions and words. And I don't want WoW to die, just to update the engine to properly use 2 cores. Right now the 2nd never goes above 15%.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SomeJoel]

after all this is why we like PC games, always delivering top technology.

Speak for yourself. I'd rather have superior content than high-end graphics. PC games have much more memory and disk space to use (in general) than console games, so they could theoretically offer far more depth. However, since so many people think like you do, we are force-fed inane games that are very nice to look at but very little fun to play. WoW doesn't need a graphics overhaul. It needs a content and game-mechanics overhaul. The reason most people quit isn't because it isn't pretty enough, but rather they've run out of "meaningful" things to do. This expansion appears to be an effort to address that, but I think it is probably too little too late for most jaded players.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Ardaen]

I agree on the pretty graphics front. If we continue to expect newer and better quality graphics all we do is push the development costs and end-user hardware costs up to the point we get nothing but recycled sequels with no real content while paying rediculous sums of money. I'd rather fun games with old school graphics over super-pretty games that you forget in 2 weeks because they are hollow shells. I don't buy that a game is good because its super pretty, I say its good if people still play it 5 years later.

Re:New 3D engine?

[myowntrueself]

I love WoW and always will (even if I don't play it now for 6 months), but the 3D engine is getting old.

Be careful what you wish for.

A lot of games with 'high end' graphics like Crysis or Age of Conan for example, have APPALLING color depth. These games really may as well be using 16 bit color.

Age of Conan, the one I'm (shudder) most familiar with makes my eyes hurt after just a few hours play due to its lack of contrast, everything being colored with the same few shades of brown, green or grey.

At least with WoW they have highly colorful, contrasty graphics that make the world easy to see and separate one thing from another.

Re:New 3D engine?

[X0563511]

Dammit, Low/unsteady framerate IS NOT LAG!

Lag is network latency!

I am so sick of seeing this! It ranks right up there with people calling their whole computer the 'hard drive.'

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW doesn't need a graphics overhaul. It needs a content and game-mechanics overhaul. The reason most people quit isn't because it isn't pretty enough, but rather they've run out of "meaningful" things to do. This expansion appears to be an effort to address that, but I think it is probably too little too late for most jaded players.

You couldn't be more correct. After years of playing WoW, I finally quit recently out of sheer boredom. With the latest patch the prospect of grinding the same boring crap over and over again just to keep my gear up to date was too much tedium to consider. I can keep in contact with the friends I've made there via e-mail and regular social networks without paying the $15 monthly WoW tax.

It's true that Blizzard might've been able to entice me back with the introduction of Goblins as player characters (I always wanted to play one), but most of my friends are Alliance, not Horde, and for the last year or so those friends were the only thing keeping me playing.

Which leads me to another gripe: Considering Goblins have been a neutral faction in the MMORG up to this point, making them Horde-only just because they are getting help from the Horde seems completely silly considering all the help they've received from Alliance players via quests over the years. Not to mention that the closing off of a significant market that going to war with Alliance would represent also seems out of character for the Ferengi-like Capitalists.

Perhaps they do a good job of explaining this, but I've no more interest in investing my time in the game to find out. I've lost faith in Blizzard's ability to entertain me via WoW; especially since I've had the growing impression that all their good game designers have either left WoW for newer/greener pastures or have completely lost interest in what they are doing.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Ardaen]

At least some use the term "framelag" which, while still somewhat questionable from a technical perspective, does indicate there is a distinction. What always amazes me is the number of "experts" you run into in online games that lecture you incorrectly about the technical details of any issues occuring in game. I wish people would learn enough to know how ignorant they are or are not before making assertions as an "expert".

Re:New 3D engine?

[milkmage]

you sure the lag isn't your network? what difference does the zone make if the players aren't on your screen?

Blizz is keeping the hardware requirements low so the game is playable by as many people as possible. I'm sure they could make it look cutting edge, but their subscriber ship would drop

Re:New 3D engine?

[MaWeiTao]

I agree, and another problem I have with better graphics is that developers inevitably use them to try to achieve photo-realism. This means we get stuck with bland, uninspired art where, in fantasy games anyway, everything looks like an Oblivion clone. The in-game characters look like second-rate actors from b-movies and monsters are unimpressive to say the least. It looks particularly ridiculous when you've got realistic looking characters performing cartoonishly unrealistic actions.

Some people don't like the cartoony look of WoW, but I can appreciate it for it's style and personality. It's colorful and fun. There are certainly other styles which take a more serious tone, but far too often developers go for "gritty" realism.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Yvan256]

Can a slashdot administrator make an exception for the comment above and mod it "+9000, informative"?

Re:New 3D engine?

[PBoyUK]

How lucky for us that you have taken it upon yourself to provide straitjacket definitions for commonly used words and impose them on the rest of us.

Newsflash: lag is not just network latency. It's a catch-all term, which if I had to summarise, I'd say would be best described as a failure in terms of performance to maintain expectations. You know, like, jet-lag, or a runner lagging behind the pack. In the case of the GP post, it was the failure of the 3D engine to maintain the framerate at an expected level. Hence, lag. As a term it does of course have implications in the speed of a network also, but that's hardly all the term is limited too.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

lag is latency

Re:New 3D engine?

[Prien715]

While hard drive is a technical term lag is not. At least, not yet. And even in hardware, I would would describe it as layer agnostic.

In the old days, I hooked my PS1 up to a TV tuner. There was a ~500 ms lag between the sound/controls and what I saw on the screen due to the hardware/driver layer it went through. The term lag is also used in film to describe when sound/video aren't synced.

I think lag being an agnostic term describing a temporal disconnect between the controls and reaction on the screen. There's also the term "lag spike" for when you temporarily lose control of the game.

Whether the cause is sudden increase in network latency, packet loss, or your graphics card overheating is irrelevant for the usage of the term (but you can't find the cure without describing the symptoms.)

Re:New 3D engine?

[Dealer MacDope]

The network is the computer

Re:New 3D engine?

[Monkeedude1212]

But the system is down! Its not letting me check my mail on the world wide internet!

Re:New 3D engine?

[Alarash]

It doesn't matter if you have a new PC, it will still lag when too much players are in the same zone.

Yes it does matter. On my medium configuration (4 Gb, Core 2 Duo @ 3 GHz and GTX 260 - yes it's a good configuration, and above average, but it's not "high-end") I always have a high frame-rate. What does happen is the zone server in high-population areas (major hubs such as Dalaran) are struggling. It could be a network bottleneck in the data center (throughput is saturated) or a hardware limitation of the said zone server (the piece of software running on it takes too much resources). One could argue that, therefore, in doesn't matter if you have a new PC (and by that you must mean a high end PC), because when you reach a certain threshold where the graphics are not the limiting factor, you reach another limit over which you have no control since it's in Blizzard's hands. But saying that the engine could sort of 'cap' your frame rate is just plain wrong.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Chromium_One]

Have you verified that WoW is properly detecting the number of CPU cores you have? I've seen it be stupid and keep setting itself back to using only one core.

You can try setting the number of cores manually:
http://www.wowwiki.com/CVar_processAffinityMask

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the monitor is the computer!

On the flip side, this general mistake produces opportunities for the attentive to score decent, cheap LCDs when friends/family/craigslisters get tired of their 1 year old malware-infected Dell and buys a new one - including a brand new monitor - and sells the old one cheaply (or throws it out!).

Re:New 3D engine?

[brkello]

That could be said of any MMORPG. But WoW was able to grab the players from all the existing MMORPGs at the time and grow as big as it is today. So there is more than just those 2 reasons. They actually made a really good game. You could argue that it was because it catered more to a casual crowd (which is true), but they actually did a really good job to appease the more hardcore as well.

I actually think it would be fun to go back to level 1 in a new game...and a lot of people in WoW feel the same. We all jump to the new MMORPG, see that it just isn't as good, and then come back. So I think the real reason people stay in WoW is that no one can make a game at launch that can beat what WoW offers. It may be able to beat it down the road, but by then it is too late. I really wonder what can ever beat WoW. Each expansion shows more polish than the next. Almost seems like Blizzard is the only company that can beat Blizzard.

Re:New 3D engine?

[brkello]

I know, it is shocking, people get tired of playing a game for 3 years straight. Oh wait, actually, that is normal.

I am sure there are a lot of people like me out there who play when an expansion comes out. Do all the content, get in to a few raids, and then quit again because I don't really have the time. And every expansion does show an overhaul to game mechanics along with graphics. This is a way to expand that back to the original content...which is really a great idea.

Re:New 3D engine?

[daVinci1980]

I don't suffer the lag you're talking about. I run a gtx260+ at 2560x1600 with 8xAA and every option turned up. I'm usually at 60, and never below 30.

I don't get network lag either, except when my cable is acting up. I run 25-mans and have no problems in Dalaran even when it's packed.

Moreover, I find the graphics and effects in WoTLK to be quite good. Sure they're not EQ2, but that's not the art style they're going for, so that's fine with me.

Shrug, to each their own I suppose.

Re:New 3D engine?

[StikyPad]

Yeah, that's what EQ thought too.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it when they call their computer "the CPU".

Re:New 3D engine?

[StikyPad]

PC games have much more memory and disk space to use (in general) than console games, so they could theoretically offer far more depth.

The depth of a game is not limited by memory or disk space, even on a console, but by the imagination of the designer and the time allotted to implement their design. In fact, the processing power of the computer, especially in online games, is just about worthless for anything but the graphics, since it is literally the front end -- the client -- and all of the AI, and most of the game mechanics are handled on the server.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true that Blizzard might've been able to entice me back with the introduction of Goblins as player characters (I always wanted to play one), but most of my friends are Alliance, not Horde, and for the last year or so those friends were the only thing keeping me playing.

They're allowing you to switch factions. Even on pvp servers where you can now play on both factions.

Which leads me to another gripe: Considering Goblins have been a neutral faction in the MMORG up to this point, making them Horde-only just because they are getting help from the Horde seems completely silly considering all the help they've received from Alliance players via quests over the years. Not to mention that the closing off of a significant market that going to war with Alliance would represent also seems out of character for the Ferengi-like Capitalists.

This is a specific branch of goblins, not the entire race. In the same way you can't just say "White People" when talking about Europe, you can't say "Goblins" when talking about the goblins.

Perhaps they do a good job of explaining this, but I've no more interest in investing my time in the game to find out. I've lost faith in Blizzard's ability to entertain me via WoW; especially since I've had the growing impression that all their good game designers have either left WoW for newer/greener pastures or have completely lost interest in what they are doing.

Perhaps all the good designers have been working their butts off on the expansion seeing as it's a near complete revamp of the game? Just a thought.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like you might be wrong

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lag

The word lag was around before computers. If my graphics lag or my network lags it is still lag. I know where you are coming from but the word works either way

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

The word "lag" existed well before the the concept of network latency and applies to a wide variety of things:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lag

A low / unsteady framerate is actually a very good example lag. It pisses me off that people ignorantly upmod your flawed nerd rage.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Dutch Gun]

Look at the new Star Wars MMO, or check out the trailer for Guild Wars 2 (released the other day). Neither of those is really a photo-realistic look.

When graphics hardware reached a threshold level, people naturally wanted to see if they could recreate worlds as realistically as possible. Now that we've seen that we can, we realize it's not always desirable. I think game designers are realizing that there's more stylistic choices than 'realistic' as well, and we'll be seeing those results in upcoming MMOs.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

the 3D engine is getting old. It doesn't matter if you have a new PC, it will still lag when too much players are in the same zone.

The graphics look improved in the trailer. The basic feature that WoW has always had is that it doesn't require a constantly updated gaming box to play. The handful of wankers who do things like that like always jump to a new shinier game anyway, so I'm not sure there's too much point in trying to aim for that market.

This stuff was leaked on mmo-champions earlier in the week (to the usual cacophony of QQing). I was rather shocked by it at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.

The #1 thing people whined about when TBC came out was lag in the single zone that everyone jumped to when the expansion hit.

The #1 thing people whine about now is "Dalalag" as it called on my realm.

This expansion seems set to both update old areas (which are larger in size than Outlands and Northrend combined) and to spread players out. It seems to me that that can be a big win.

I, for one, will probably welcome my new Archaeologist Overlord and skill that up on my main before I level to 85.

I'd go back, but I need some new mind blowing sound and 3D experience

Play on a Mac. When I switched from Microsoft Windows to Mac for playing, I could hear the snow crunching beneath my hooves in Winterspring and could almost feel the cold (I play Draenei).

I'm not a WoW addict. I can quit any time I want, except that now is kind of a bad time - it's guild raid time. Got to go.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

Almost seems like Blizzard is the only company that can beat Blizzard.

I think so too. I'm not about to jump to a different game because I enjoy playing WoW and have plenty of options in the game to keep me interested. Not to mention all the time I've invested to date getting oddball achievements and equipment.

If there is a WoW-killer, it will be Blizzard's mythic upcoming MMO and that, like Microsoft Windows Vists -vs- Microsoft Windows XP, will have only an alternate product by the same company as serious competition.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

The reason most people quit isn't because it isn't pretty enough, but rather they've run out of "meaningful" things to do. This expansion appears to be an effort to address that, but I think it is probably too little too late for most jaded players.

If they've already quit, then this is a means to entice older players back. If they're still playing, maybe they are not quite as jaded as you think.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

Which leads me to another gripe: Considering Goblins have been a neutral faction in the MMORG up to this point, making them Horde-only just because they are getting help from the Horde seems completely silly considering all the help they've received from Alliance players via quests over the years. Not to mention that the closing off of a significant market that going to war with Alliance would represent also seems out of character for the Ferengi-like Capitalists.

While I really hate QQing, I guess I'm going to do some myself. :-( I agree fully. I very much would like to play a Goblin, but not enough that I want to roll a Hordie.

Every toon that I've leveled has gotten to Honored with the Steamwheedle Cartel.

I've run drugs http://thottbot.com/q1116 killed your competitors (Venture Co.), killed your enemies (the Bloodsail pirates), and run countless other errands for you and you are going to abandon my faction for the Horde? Booty Bay is my favorite city in the game. I cannot believe that I'm going to become KOS there.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

Newsflash: lag is not just network latency. It's a catch-all term

I would agree, but hey, I play (and like) WoW so that makes me a moron.

The WoW graphics engine makes it very difficult to distinguish between the two. The engine appears to be getting "smarter" with regards to Newton's laws of motion. I've been noticing recently that in times of extreme network latency (I'm in San Jose, a decidedly 3rd world city now) that I can punch the keystrokes to kill something, have nothing happen, see the monster contine to move across the screen and then warp back to the place it should have been had my keystrokes been processed in something closer to realtime and die.

I've had an easier time playing in Manila, remarkable as it may sound.

Re:New 3D engine?

[MBGMorden]

Indeed. I haven't canceled my subscription or officially quit, but it's been almost 6 weeks since I logged into WoW. It wasn't some big decision or thing where I was like "OMG WoW is ruining my life I must quit!". I just got to a point where I was tired of the current content and didn't want to run it again, so I found myself not logging in. Before I knew it a month had passed.

If Blizzard introduces some interesting content though, I'll likely play again. And the way it sounds just leveling a new character might be fun again. All the old world stuff is getting shifted about, the new races will have all new stuff, etc. I just wish they were introducing a new hero class as well. Not having that really sucks. The only classes I never played much were rogue and warrior. I supposed I could level a Worgen Warrior, but the reason I never leveled them to begin with is I dislike melee classes, so those two haven't ever been high on my todo list. I would have loved another caster of some sort, or a caster/rogue-type hybrid (I'd kill for a Bard class). Oh well, we'll see.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

The only classes I never played much were rogue and warrior.

Yeah, I'm not one for melee either, but ...

Rogue is pretty cool. Who can resist running around almost invisible, coming up behind someone then robbing and killing them?

When I apply for a job as an IRS agent next month, I'm going to put in my job qualifications section Level 80 Rogue in World of Warcraft.

Re:New 3D engine?

[GrumblyStuff]

Low framerate isn't (or shouldn't) be called lag. It should be called "my computer is being a piece of shit again".

When my computer lags, everyone around me seems to pause then, when my computer gets all the data regarding their actions, I see that, people rushing around, spells I used all on cooldown at the same time, etc. I was behind on data but then I got it eventually and caught up.

When my computer is a piece of shit, I still see what happens. ...one frame every five seconds. It doesn't wait to render everything and play it back at 30fps.

I don't know what word or short phrase I'd use to call that but I gotta agree with the GP about the use of lag.

Re:New 3D engine?

[samexner]

Another reason so many people keep on playing is that they feel that pressure to play a lot, because they are paying monthly for the game.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well technically it is:

Definitions of LAG on the Web:

        * hang (back) or fall (behind) in movement, progress, development, etc.
        * slowdown: the act of slowing down or falling behind

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd really like to see spell effects completely overhauled and deepened. The graphics arn't that bad, but casting the same fireball for 85 levels is pretty lame.

Re:New 3D engine?

[erlkonig]

Newflash^2: Lag is explicitly network lag for any online game unless otherwise specified, since online lag completely overshadows almost all other types of local-to-host delays. If you're talking about a solo, unnetworked game, sure, "lag" might mean something else.

Now, of course, if you're talking to complete duffers, who will complain that their computer's slow when a remote webserver is slow to respond, and that the Internet is slow while their disk drive I/O light is solid on, and in almost all other ways have no idea what causes delays, then sure, "lag" could mean anything.

Re:New 3D engine?

[X0563511]

That's what I said. Second line of my comment.

Re:New 3D engine?

[X0563511]

But it's not graphics lag. The graphics is still realtime, even if it's a slideshow.

If, for some reason, you have graphical lag... something is seriously wrong - and you would have other signs as well, like a 'lagging' mouse feedback, desynced sound, etc.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which leads me to another gripe: Considering Goblins have been a neutral faction in the MMORG up to this point, making them Horde-only just because they are getting help from the Horde seems completely silly considering all the help they've received from Alliance players via quests over the years. Not to mention that the closing off of a significant market that going to war with Alliance would represent also seems out of character for the Ferengi-like Capitalists.

Steamwheedle Cartel is the neutral faction, not "goblins." Getting upset about this is like getting upset with having to fight against humans in deadmines. WTF, why am I killing humans? Stormwind is full of humans and I'm allied with them!

Re:New 3D engine?

[zigurat667]

Lag is not only network latency!

Lag means all the way from your input to latency introduced by input handling, rendering graphics and networking.

I am so sick of seeing this! It ranks right up there with people calling their whole computer the 'Garry White of Albania'.

Re:New 3D engine?

[mikael_j]

Which leads me to another gripe: Considering Goblins have been a neutral faction in the MMORG up to this point, making them Horde-only just because they are getting help from the Horde seems completely silly considering all the help they've received from Alliance players via quests over the years. Not to mention that the closing off of a significant market that going to war with Alliance would represent also seems out of character for the Ferengi-like Capitalists.

I was sort of hoping for a twist on the whole faction thing with the goblins, like being able to actually play as a neutral (able to communicate with both alliance and horde as an added perk while having other drawbacks like say, much harder to gain reputation with either faction). It would have made for some interesting gameplay.

/Mikael

Re:New 3D engine?

[Dr. Impossible]

Maybe it's me or maybe it's the RP server where I used to play. But "stuff & level" means jack shit. I guess it's like real life, kids and dump people value material stuff, while other value the meaning of actions and words.

Yes, surely anyone who collects items in a computer roleplaying game must be a dumb kid! What sound logic! I'm going to go play through Baldur's Gate II right now with a naked and unarmed Fighter just to show everyone what a smart adult I am.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Dr. Impossible]

Have you actually played Crysis or seen what it looks like?

Re:New 3D engine?

[Nefarious Wheel]

WoW survives for 2 reasons, one is the same reason as social networking, you have some friends on WoW...

That's it, I think. WoW is a chat group masquerading as a game.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya What he said;)

Re:New 3D engine?

[Draek]

Crysis looks like ass because they spent too little on art designers, not because they spent too much on 3D engine devs.

Team Fortress 2 has highly colorful, contrasty graphics yet looks *much* better than WoW: yes, it's an FPS so the engine doesn't have to draw as much stuff as that of a MMO so its not a 1:1 comparison, but it does prove it's possible to maintain the artistic style while improving the engine itself.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Anonymous Coward]

I play (and like) WoW so that makes me a moron.
Never have truer words been spoken. At least you realize that the waste of time MMO you play is designed for mentally-challenged elementary school kids. I know a six year old who has a level 80. Tell me with a straight face that anything in WoW requires skill.

Keep sinking your money, retard. Maybe if you stopped playing, XEmacs wouldn't have fallen so far behind GNU. I doubt it though, since there's like 12 people using xemacs.

Re:New 3D engine?

[SL Baur]

Keep sinking your money, retard. Maybe if you stopped playing, XEmacs wouldn't have fallen so far behind GNU. I doubt it though, since there's like 12 people using xemacs.

Ah, nothing like fan mail. Email me your address and I'll send an autographed copy of the GPL either version 2, or (at your option) any later version.

Re:New 3D engine?

[CyberLife]

I agree. Lag is a general term, applicable to a wide range of things.

I've heard it argued that ignorance of existing, non-computer terminology and the failure to distinguish between the application of a word and its definition are big problems plaguing the computer industry. This particular exchange would seem to support that assertion.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Krneki]

I understand what you are saying and I do agree with you, but a nice 3D engine can't hurt. I love certain WoW views, hell often I just stood there admiring the view. But when the game is lagging at 20FPS on a 3Ghz dual core CPU, it stops to be fun.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Krneki]

Lag used to describe network latency, as you are pointing out. But today "LAG" can be used to describe all kind of delays. Input, client side, server side or network problems, all can be called LAG. Of course they are different, but this is what they cause, LAG.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Massacher]

yes, this is the reason i like PC games, the superior graphics and top tech. WoW looks too dated now. even the "re-vamping" they are doing looks dated. it's too little too late.

Re:New 3D engine?

[MaskedSlacker]

Yeah, no its not. Sometimes it is, but it can also be 'user-interface lag,' which is going to be the one people are more concerned about (and in some cases will include network lag). I press button Z, and get no feedback for...1...2...3...4...5...ah there it is!

That is user-interface lag, and it doesn't matter if it is caused by network latency, paging memory into (or out of) RAM, or waiting on the processor to stop fscking a daemon so it can calculate your damage roll.

Re:New 3D engine?

[vorwerk]

You bring up two interesting points:

- WoW's graphics look dramatically out-of-date (after all, the game was released in 2004, with comparatively minor updates done over the years, and the polygon counts are simply too low)
- zones appear to be completely unable to handle a load of, say, more than ~40 players actively engaged in close-quarters PvP combat (witness the 'Wintergrasp' zone)

  That said, it is unlikely (in my opinion) that the lag you experience in WoW when there are many players in a zone has much to do with the graphics engine, and probably has much more to do with Blizzard's "backend". From what I have personally experienced as a WoW player (and as an experienced software developer), I suspect that their database server isn't able to keep up with the massive number of queries/inserts/deletes that are required during active PvP. This doesn't necessarily point to a problem with the DB engine itself -- it usually arises because of poor database layout (there is a certain "art" to database design, balancing normalization vs. redundancy to reduce query frequencies, setting up indices, and so forth), poor SQL (it never ceases to amaze me the kind of queries that some people write), and poor overall use of the system (meaning, the server is simply processing so much information that it gets bogged down). I think that this is a fundamental issue with the WoW server/backend which has existed in the game from its inception, but which had been cleverly hidden in most regular play scenarios (e.g., generally by imposing a 40-man cap in the instanced dungeons/battlegrounds/etc.).

Given my conjecturing, I didn't find it at all surprising that Blizzard has a job open specifically focused on "performance implications of database architecture choices". But of course, this is all an opinion & speculation, so who really knows.

Re:New 3D engine?

[vorwerk]

A lot of games with 'high end' graphics like Crysis or Age of Conan for example, have APPALLING color depth.

 
"High-end" graphics has nothing to do with colour depth, per se. I think that it has much more to do with:

(1) the "photo-realism" effect that those games were aiming for (as opposed to the "fantasy" setting of WoW); for better or worse, Age of Conan was aiming to be "dark and gritty", for instance; and,

(2) laziness on the part of the developers. For example, I think that both Age of Conan's and Crysis' opening levels were fairly colourful, but the colour tended to wash away as the game wore on, suggesting that the graphics artists spent more time at the beginning than the ending.

(In contrast, I was fairly impressed by a recent Star Wars: The Old Republic walkthrough video which showed a really vibrant, interesting universe.)

Re:New 3D engine?

[myowntrueself]

Actually I had thought it might be a performance thing; having to render less color depth.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Rophuine]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "few". CGA is "a few" colours". VGA is a "few" shades of a "few" colours. 16 bit is rather more than this. I suspect AoC suffers more from artwork issues.

Re:New 3D engine?

[robo.cowp]

Very true. Economists talk about lag all the time (which they often measure in months btw) and it has nothing to do with network latency.

Re:New 3D engine?

[The Slashdot Guy]

Why would you assume that? I pay monthly for cable, yet i don't feel pressured to watch a lot of television.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Rakarra]

Be careful what you wish for.

A lot of games with 'high end' graphics like Crysis or Age of Conan for example, have APPALLING color depth. These games really may as well be using 16 bit color.

16-bit? I was thinking more like 4-bit. As David Wong put it, Call of Duty has four colors: brown, grey, black, and muzzle-flash.

Re:New 3D engine?

[Prien715]

Aren't most lag spikes caused by server glitches (including too much going on)? Or is that called the "server is a piece of shit"? And how are you supposed to tell the difference without access to said server?

Re:New 3D engine?

[MrPeach]

You seriously need a new graphics card if you are only getting 20 FPS. I get that on my crap Intel laptop chipset.

My dual core Athlon 64 desktop gives me 30 easy, even though it's on old motherboard with a PCI video card.

Re:New 3D engine?

[GrumblyStuff]

I'd put "server is a piece of shit" under "company is a piece of shit" which also covers "code/coding/software is a piece of shit" which may or may not be the cause of said server glitches.

Some times games get ahead of the average technology. In WoW before they changed Wintergrasp, you could have any number of players there. Since battles were timed, you'd have many, many, many players there during the day. All that info coming in, who's shooting whom, calculating splash damage, players and vehicles and pet positions.... My computer can barely render it so I can only imagine what the poor world server is getting hammered for in terms of computer resources.

I guess you couldn't figure out where the source of lag comes from. Could be the server being maxed out, could be the local area internet tubes being maxed out, could be (if using wireless) stuff blocking the signal momentarily, could be porn torrents, could be the CIA or little green men....

Re:New 3D engine?

[Prien715]

Exactly! That's why I think lag is a descriptive term. You could be killed by a lag spike in wintergrasp, but it's much more difficult to determine what it's caused by. I can't do 25 man raids for example because I disconnect due to lag. I can't tell if it's my CPU (quad-core core 2 duo), GPU (Nvidia GTX 260), memory (4 GB), network connection (100 Mb/s private LAN), OS (WinXP 32 bit), or maybe even my detail level (maxed out everything on a 1920x1200 monitor).

But I can play on a TF2 server with 32 people and 60 FPS.

I'm happy to say it's lag, but until I experiment a bit more, I can't tell you what's causing the lag.

Changes to old zones

[Vohar]

I read elsewhere that the changes to old zones are likely to be done with their 'phasing' method used in some zones of the current expansion. It kind of splits the zone into parallel versions, and what a player sees (and what other players they see)will be different depending on what quests they've done. What they've done with it so far did a great job of giving the illusion that players were making a difference in their world.

It makes sense that they would do this with the old-world areas rather than just replace them; low-level characters still need places to hunt and quest.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Krneki]

I read elsewhere that the changes to old zones are likely to be done with their 'phasing' method used in some zones of the current expansion. It kind of splits the zone into parallel versions, and what a player sees (and what other players they see)will be different depending on what quests they've done. What they've done with it so far did a great job of giving the illusion that players were making a difference in their world.

It makes sense that they would do this with the old-world areas rather than just replace them; low-level characters still need places to hunt and quest.

Dude, if you want to see other dimensions, just use less tobacco. :)

Re:Changes to old zones

[Vohar]

Dude, if you want to see other dimensions, just use less tobacco. :)

...Tobacco? Seriously? I mean, I see what you were trying to do there. But tobacco??

Re:Changes to old zones

[Krneki]

You sound exactly like my friend, but you know a join is like a coffee, somebody like it strong other with some milk. :)

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

In Europe they usually cut the weed with tobacco and put a little piece of rolled up paper at the end for a filter when they roll joints. Just sayin'.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

I like joins, especially inner joins, though nested inner joins require the hose.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Vohar]

I have truly been informed by your post sir.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Mascot]

It won't be phased. They specifically stated they have reworked 1-60 leveling completely, including examples of the reworked flow between zones while leveling up.

Re:Changes to old zones

[BarryJacobsen]

They stated during the events that the redesign itself does not use phasing to accomplish the change - the new "old world" will be that way for everyone, even those that don't buy the expansion.

"Will I need the expansion to be able to experience the Cataclysm changes? When the Cataclysm occurs, it will occur for all players, whether they have purchased the expansion or not--you will no longer be to play in the original version of Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms. However, certain features such as the new zones, new races, and new level cap will only be accessible to players who purchase the expansion."

From the faq: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/cataclysm/faq/

Re:Changes to old zones

[X0563511]

A join? Since when do you smoke SQL?

Re:Changes to old zones

[bdenton42]

That's ashame. It would have been nicer on the PvP servers to no longer have the 80+ crowd hanging around in lowbie areas ganking you. But on the plus side the new reworking might make leveling a new alt bearable.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Martin Blank]

I'd like to see servers that allow for older content, especially in light of events like this. Blizzard could start new servers that are further back in the storyline, allowing players old and new to (re-)experience what it was like before, and then put the servers on a storyline rotation, where every six months or so the storyline is advanced. In order to simplify the maintenance, new realms would all come up at the same time, and would thus advance at the same points.

There would probably have to be some balancing, of course, but level caps could still be enforced specific to the content.

Re:Changes to old zones

[zero0ne]

They actually use hash most of the time instead of "weed" (the leafy kind)

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect. They are changing the content of the old world even for people who have not purchased the Cataclysm expansion, so no phasing will be required (it also means you will never be able to experience the old Azeroth after the Cataclysm release date, expansion purchase or not). Read www.mmo-champion.com for more information. Makes me wonder if my lvl 30 perma-alt sitting in Stranglethorn is going to drown in a horrible flood...

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

Just assume he's from europe... European don't smoke much straight MJ, they either mix it in with tobacco or more usually, sprinkle shavings of hash in.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Spacelem]

Not necessarily, I've seen a lot more weed in Scotland than I've seen hash.

Erm, so I hear.

*shuffles away*

Re:Changes to old zones

[drsquare]

So, if it's all phased, why not just play a proper single-player RPG? Unless I'm missing the point of what an MMO is suposed to be.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe in spain but not in the rest of europe !

i see hash maybe 3,4 times a year, i see weed weekly

Re:Changes to old zones

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but it gets weird if someone in your party isn't phased the same as you - you go into an area and they disappear and the party is effectively split.

Also, there are a lot of changes that will happen globally, i.e. Darkshore will be flooded. Not sure if that means that a bunch of quests will no longer be possible to get or complete or if they'll just take the same quest and modify it somewhat for the changed circumstances. Having come late to the game, I miss that I never saw some of the areas the way they were originally (e.g. Dalaran, where it used to be is now a big crater).

I'm also wondering what happens to things like the World Explorer achievement once there's new content to discover - I'm guessing that anyone who already has the achievement will keep it, though there will still be new areas to explore, and anyone who hasn't gotten it at the point they add the new content will have a more difficult time of it.

There are some areas of the game where having ever higher level caps changes things completely for lower level players, specifically PvP elements where there aren't level exclusions (everything other than the tiered battlegrounds, where it still only makes sense to try when you're in the last 2 levels of the tier; it's supposed to balance sides based on level and gear, and now it also does it based on whether you have experience turned on (which twinks will almost certainly turn off, they want to stay at the highest level of a tier), but that balancing doesn't seem to work very well in my experience). So, Wintergrasp will no longer be very playable once enough people get to 85 unless you're at 85. I'm just barely able to be useful at level 78 right now, if there were mostly level 85 players I wouldn't even bother until I was 82 or 83. Back when the level cap was 60, I imagine that getting something like Arena Master or Grand Master was a lot more do-able at 60 then than it is at 70 now, since then you didn't have to fight anyone much higher level than you. Doing the various Outland PvP tasks (or even things like Silithus, if anyone still cared) is something you can't really do well for another bunch of levels. If you're playing on a PvP realm, it makes it even more of a disparity.

I think it's unfortunate that so many people seem intent on leveling as fast as possible to get to end-game content, I've really enjoyed playing through the story line, exploring everywhere, marveling at some of the really cool visuals they've created. Then I get into an instance with a group and they want to just run it as fast as possible, because they've run it 20 times already, boom boom boom, I have no idea where I am, what the place looks like, get a chance to stop and look at anything. Boom boom boom.

Re:Changes to old zones

[Rakarra]

A join? Since when do you smoke SQL?

This would really explain some of the database designs and interfaces I've seen.

Setting a good example!

[space_jake]

Recycle, reduce, reuse! Go Blizzard.

Re:Setting a good example!

[Krneki]

Recycle, reduce, reuse! Go Blizzard.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

But I agree, I want something better now, ffs! :)

Re:Setting a good example!

[Arthur Grumbine]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

It seems to me that this is a case where "breaking" it (Azeroth) is actually going to improve it, by offering new places to go, things to do, etc.

Re:Setting a good example!

[Rakarra]

Whew, have you been to Desolace? Talk about a zone that's currently broken. :( I'm looking forward to the new, lush, tropical Desolace!

Monk Class

[Anonymous Coward]

Blizzard: Do you have a special name for the female version of the monk class? Like nuns... or something?

-SanguS

Re:Monk Class

[Anonymous Coward]

uh... Fail? Can women not be doctors?

Re:Monk Class

[Entropius]

A majority of the premeds I teach are, in fact, women.

Re:Monk Class

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on the breasts size and the hair color.

Re:Monk Class

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they still women after they become meds/postmeds ?
Have you actually ever checked ?

Re:Monk Class

[Supurcell]

Would that make male Witch Doctors Warlock Doctors?

Re:Monk Class

[Shinhan-sama]

Yes, yes indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Witch_Komugi

Re:Monk Class

[sixsixtysix]

womonk, femonk, monkette, monkress

How Many More Expansions?

[Anonymous Coward]

At some point, Blizzard is going to reach (or has already reached) the point of diminishing returns with expansions. How many more random elements can be added to WoW (wow, another 5 levels and another two classes!)? And, as other posters have said, the game continues to suffer from the limitations of its years-old graphics engine. At some point (hopefully, sooner than later), the answer has to be a complete reboot / new game. At least that would help get some of the casual gamers back into things too. I played the original WoW for a while, but I'm not about to buy three different expansions to get back into things.

Re:How Many More Expansions?

[Real1tyCzech]

It's not like they couldn't simply use the same gameplay engine and provide multiple graphics engines. I would love to see engines designed specifically for low-end (netbook), mid-end (workstation), and high-end (Sli-rig), all optimized and tuned to give the very best of each (performance, balance, quality).

They've got plenty of funding, developers and experience to get this done.

Wha?

[TheRealMindChild]

From the Diablo III Monk trailer, you can see...

No I can't! The only link in the article is to the "Ask Blizzard people something or another"... and every other comment seems to be a bunch of WoW zombies.

Re:Wha?

[Maniacal]

Egg Zachery!! Fsck WOW. Gimme some Diablo III scraps

Ok. I'll feed myself. Oh, and you.

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Monk

Re:Wha?

[Dremth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFGXKV_45HQ

Re:Wha?

[TheRealMindChild]

Actually, there is quite an ingrained story, but you wouldn't know that by the screenshots. Is this the most you have played of the game? Screenshots?

Mindless hack and slay, you say? Like WoW? Like Left 4 Dead? Like countless-other-games-you-can-overgeneralize?

Re:Wha?

[ShakaUVM]

I love the thousands of people cheering on the ads that they paid hundreds of dollars to get to BlizzCon to see.

It's stuff like that that confirms my faith in the intelligence of humanity.

Re:Wha?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonder why they decided to go the route of making the obviously Shaolin inspired monk a white dude.

Re:Wha?

[mog007]

That's a really good point, but don't forget that Ozzy is performing also.

Re:Wha?

[Rakarra]

I love the thousands of people cheering on the ads that they paid hundreds of dollars to get to BlizzCon to see.

It's stuff like that that confirms my faith in the intelligence of humanity.

Hey, I had a blast while I was there. Chatted about my favorite games, hung out with guildies who came from around the country, went to an Ozzy show, played advance copies of fun games, went to art panels, and then went to Disneyland across the street.

But oh yeah, that's all corporate and thus stupid, right?

Re:Wha?

[ShakaUVM]

>>But oh yeah, that's all corporate and thus stupid, right?

To each his own, man. I went to Comicon instead, got to hang out next to Adama and Tigh for a couple hours at a BSG concert, found that a friend of mine is Felicia Day's personal assistant, got signatures from a lot of my favorite book authors, attended some interesting panels, talked with Stephen Martiniere for a while (who also sketched me a neat drawing for free), etc.

I have played canned demos by Blizzard before and don't trust them further than I can throw their bolted-to-the-ground kiosks.

But yeah, Ozzy's neat (even though he doesn't actually play WoW) and I'm all for meeting up with guildies, so I'm not disparaging you. I just think the entire idea of BlizzCon is such that Blizzard ought to be paying people to watch, not the other way around.

Yes, but...

[NecroPuppy]

Will this expansion be the one that finally makes Engineering something that people actually want to level for something other than toys?

Re:Yes, but...

[Krneki]

Dude, Engineering is for fun and I hope always will. You totally missed the point.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Never been on a raid eh?

Re:Yes, but...

[NecroPuppy]

No, I don't think that I have.

I've played an engineer in WoW since the first day I created my toon.

Engineering items fall into a few categories. (Note: I haven't played in a few months, so it is entirely possible that some of these -might- have been addressed... but I rather doubt it.)

Vanity: The Hog, and similar items. To be honest, I wouldn't trade my Hog for any other land mount out there, but it doesn't offer anything that other land mounts don't. Admittedly, I liked it better when I could fall from any distance on without anything happening... But hey.

Single user items: Aka, the teleporters. I used them all the time when I was in the appropriate areas / level range, but they don't make the profession, in and of itself, worthwhile.

Explosives: Largely bloody worthless.

Scopes: Useful, but so flooded on the market that you don't really have to worry about making one yourself; just hit up the AH.

Item "enchants": Never used. Seriously, there's no point to them, everyone would rather have a real enchant to their items rather than something with a short use, long cooldown, and questionable utility (especially in raid). Boots? Enchant. Cloak? Enchant. Belt? Put the belt buckle on there and socket a gem. Etc.

Helms: Most engineers would greatly prefer if they could make them for non-engineers. It would actually be a moneymaker.

The problems with engineering could be solved in a few ways:

1) Recycling: Let engineers turn gray/white items into metal scrap which functions similar to ore, but you can't get gems from it.
2) Let them make items for non-engineers: Engineering is the only profession where the majority of the actual items (not parts) can't be used by non-engineers.
3) Give engineers a bonus on mechanical mounts. Bonus speed / damage. It wouldn't even have to be much of a bonus. Say, skill/75 as a percentage.
4) Give engineers something that actually makes them useful on a raid... other than repair bots. Yes, I recognize that there are certain things that are useful with single bosses (the Shadow Reflector for Twin Emps was one), but I'm looking for something with the more constant utility that enchantment or alchemy (flasks) provides.
5) Lower the failure rate. Engineering doesn't work like that; it's actually genuinely reliable.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

my hand mounted pyro rockets for burst damage are bad for a raid compared to other hand enchants... how?
my parachute cloak for the explody fights is bad.... how?

or.

I'm sorry minmaxer, what godspec do you want us mortals to spec to today?

Re:Yes, but...

[Idiomatick]

Hand mounted pyro as of 3.2 are the higest dps chant, and parachute cloak gives as much agi as the enchant.... Also bombs generally raise yours dps if you use them and saronite bombs are pretty much free...

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

And let us learn our teleporters so they don't clog our bags.

Re:Yes, but...

[theurge14]

Tailors should be able to repair their own cloth gear.

Blacksmiths should be able to repair their own mail/plate gear.

Leatherworkers should be able to repair their own leather gear.

We shouldn't have to plunk down 15g per death in Ulduar to some stranger to fix a crafted item WE CREATED.

Sigh.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a moron. Why the fuck are you still an engineer if you hate it so much?

There are plenty of people (like me) that love being an Engineer, and find it to be a great profession. Not everything needs to be a copy of Jewelcrafting or Enchanting.

No one is forcing you to keep Engineering, that's a decision that you're making for YOURSELF.

1) Vanity Items like Jeeves are a huge bonus for anybody that doesn't have a stick up their ass. This is a VIDEO GAME, it's SUPPOSED to be fun.

2) Teleporters are immensely handy for getting to those zones without a portal that leads to them, and there are more reasons than just leveling there to go to Tanaris or Area 52 (see Cataclysm).

3) Explosives are fine in any situation other than Arena (because they're disabled there). Just because YOU don't use them doesn't mean they don't give you an advantage

4) Item Enchants should ALWAYS be used. They are without question at least as good as any enchant that can be used in that slot.
Cloak enchants: slightly more stats than a far MORE expensive cloak enchant, and FREE slow fall every 60 seconds.
Boots: could go either way for PVE. 24 crit rating when most people use 12 hit 12 crit is worse, but rocket boots can save your ass in new content when you're not paying attention. They can also get you to your new position faster, meaning more DPS. In Battlegrounds the rocket boots are far and away the best boot enchant you could have.
Belt: you seem to be gravely misinformed here. The belt enchant STACKS WITH THE BELT BUCKLE. There is absolutely NO DOWNSIDE to enchanting your belt, you lose NOTHING. And you gain a free grenade every 6 minutes. Handy!
Gloves: As long as you use the engi only enchant (Haste or Pyro Rocket) off of cooldown, it's at least as good as 44 AP or 28 SP in PVE. No one's forcing you to use it in PVE though, it's your choice. It's GODLY in PVP compared to those enchants, WAY more versatile, and I'm glad that my profession allows me to customize my gear in this way rather than just adding MORE attack/spell power.

(Have you never gathered one of the 3 mechanical bosses in Ulduar? Hellooooo free gold!)

---------

Overall your post is extremely disrespectful towards my favorite profession (and no, I'm not one of those idiots that's "been an engineer since day 1") and I seriously think you should check out the other professions. You'll find them lacking in comparison. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Update your information about the profession and your attitude and try again.

Re:Yes, but...

[myrdos2]

I find gnomish engineering offers a distinct advantage in PvP. Most especially, the net-o-matic projector, the invisibility device, the poultryizer, the extreme rocket boots, the sonic noise machine. I also quite like the parachute cloak and hand pyro-rockets. The other gnomish trinkets are useful when you first get them, but don't scale with level.

I used to kill people with these items. In PvP, it's not about doing more damage, it's about stopping them from hurting you. Just when that warrior thinks you can't possibly fear him anymore, you hit him with the net. Is he still coming? Rocket boots away! And did you know you can mount while invisible? The sonic noise machine makes it hard to dismount you too. And those hand-mounted pyro-rockets are great for finishing people off when they're running away. Warning: Mages get mad when you polymorph them.

I love all my death-toys like they were my children, but that net is by far the best, especially if you do ranged damage. I love how they turn their character from side to side, in helpless frustration. Those moments are sweet to me. And yet, I have never seen even ONE other person use any of these trinkets. Not once. I feel Blizzard conditions people to want incremental improvements to their stats, to the point where they are unable to think clearly about anything else.

It's just a shame the good ones don't work in Arena. Even in warsong gultch, the rocket boots now make you drop the flag. That is so lame. YES, engineering gives me an unfair advantage, that's why I picked it.

Re:Yes, but...

[KamuZ]

I agree but to add some balance (i think) it should cost you materials.

Re:Yes, but...

[SL Baur]

Engineering got a metric butt ton of TLC in the 3.2 patch.

Re:Yes, but...

[SL Baur]

Ah good point. You're both right. A tailor should be able to repair her own gear, but has to pay for the thread.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

So evidently you never played arenas...

"Item "enchants": Never used. Seriously, there's no point to them, everyone would rather have a real enchant to their items rather than something with a short use, long cooldown, and questionable utility (especially in raid). Boots? Enchant. Cloak? Enchant. Belt? Put the belt buckle on there and socket a gem. Etc."

"Helms: Most engineers would greatly prefer if they could make them for non-engineers. It would actually be a moneymaker."

Before the recent nerffing (okay, not recent. I quit like 3 months ago), engineering _dominated_ in arenas. (especially for rogues ^_^)

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, who gives a shit? Why am I reading this again?

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Engineering always has been, and I personally hope always will be, the PvP profession. Back before the honor system came out, people were leveling it for grenades and the reflectors (I ground to Rank 14, as did a huge number of people in my guild, and basically every single toon had engineering). In BC, it was toned down a bit since you couldn't use the grenades in Arena, but it was very strong in Season 1 and arguably in Season 2, although by 3 and 4 PVE gear was much more of a dominant factor. Still, Rocket Boots won more matches for me than I could count. Obviously, in WotLK it's more important in Arena than ever, and actually has some use in raids - the glove enchant is really strong for certain classes.

It may not be the niche you want, but I'm pretty happy with it, and most of the serious PvPers I know feel the same way. Oddly, it's also the one profession that's also heavily geared towards RPers and the type of player who aren't really concerned with min-maxing as well; hardcore PvE types have all the other manufacturing professions, including the Uber Pair of Blacksmithing/JC or Tailoring/JC (for DPS casters). Engineering is fine, leave it alone.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

And replacing material, so essentially the costs of repairs could be (for a broken item) about 75 to 80+% of the cost of crafting a new item. The npcs might be cheaper.

Re:Yes, but...

[theurge14]

Frostweave drops off of dead mobs by the bucketloads.

End level content is where the game is at

[Shivetya]

What is means is that Blizzard recognizes that people don't like to wait to do end game content. While I expect the time requirement between levels to be higher I fully expect that they merely compressed eight to ten levels into five. It also is probably a method to bring back WOW from the rampant gear inflation it is suffering. Both expansions seriously ramped gear up to major importance over the previous. It is nearly monty hall in effect.

The level of 85 also makes it possible to increment levels between expansions. They can slowly add a level or two requiring play to reach newer raids and gear. Right now the problem is that all top end gear is level 80. This means each new raid just expands on level 80 gear making the game solely revolving around gear. The problem is that "why hate gear X at level 80 when gear Y is there as well?" It invalidates similarly level gear and the content that provides it. Will they do this? Who knows, but they have headroom to act should they choose.

Plus redoing the old world allows the overcome one major problem people had with it, no flying.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[myowntrueself]

It is nearly monty hall in effect

nearly???

Have you seen the new instances? 'Trials of the Crusader'?

That place is literaly *a* monty hall! Its pure cheese.

(yeah I know, Monty Hall was a person not a place).

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[gknoy]

Speaking of talents, does anyone know of a talent calculator that lets you un-cap the max level? Wowhead's and MMO-champion's both were capped at 80 when I looked earlier today.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you clarify what you mean by "It is nearly monty hall in effect"? The only place I know the phrase from is in the "monty hall problem" which generates endless arguments with non-mathematicians. Would be interested to know what it means in this context.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Anonymous Coward]

refering to the rpg Monty Haul effect...As in Full Monty = everything under the sun

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Chyeld]

TVTropes to the rescue!

Monty Hall (note the lack of a "U") was the host on the game show Lets Make A Deal, which was cancelled before some of you were born. The show could give away massive amounts of prizes to the lucky (or cunning or destined-to-win or however they pick winners on game shows).

A Monty Haul campaign (with a "U") was the generic label for a Game Master (and his/her campaign) who would run adventures that were like game show giveaways, except the questions weren't as hard. Players would end up staggering under the loads of gold and gems (except the encumbrance rules often were ignored as well) and cherry-picking which magic items they wanted to keep because they had so many to choose from. Think of Conan The Barbarian with a Star Wars Star Destroyer.

Also, in the first and second editions of Dungeons And Dragons, you got experience based on how much money you looted, one to one. So the Monty Haul characters would also end up with stratospheric levels, which led to situations like characters assassinating ''gods'' like Thor to gain their nifty weapons.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[spacefiddle]

which led to situations like characters assassinating ''gods'' like Thor to gain their nifty weapons.

...which is basically the endgame of WoW.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Ohrion]

Yes, actually. Mod parent up!

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[SL Baur]

Plus redoing the old world allows the overcome one major problem people had with it, no flying.

Point taken, but I think there was *a lot* more whining about doing the same quests over and over again to raise up different toons. That's really what they're changing. Flying is just a bonus.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Snaller]

"Plus redoing the old world allows the overcome one major problem people had with it, no flying."

Yeah but flying over the old world, not a thrashed one.

Plus the bastards make you wait until the last level to get your flying mount back.
I wish they'd get some better designers!

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Rakshasa Taisab]

A monolith built too high is bound to fall... Blizzard have dug their own grave and are now too deep in to fix it.

Re:End level content is where the game is at

[Supurcell]

I don't see why you would want that. Other than making a theoretical, super character with all the talents maxed, there wouldn't be any point. It won't do you any good for preparing for the expansion either, because Blizzard will surely add new, and revamp old talents before it releases.

well...

[Anonymous Coward]

... it beats 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons, that's for sure.

**sigh**

[swanzilla]

This is all I will hear about at work now. At least Avitar had a two day run as top conversation topic...

Just when I think I'm out...

[greymond]

THEY PULL ME BACK IN!!!!

Damnit, I'm about to login to WoW to prepare for the expansion again.

Re:Just when I think I'm out...

[An ominous Cow art]

I haven't played WoW in 3 months, but I'll probably start up again when this expansion comes out.

Re:Just when I think I'm out...

[imunfair]

No hurry, you've got a good six months at least - they still have to release Icecrown, and I'm sure they'll delay the expansion a few times "until it's ready".. figure maybe a year from now. They're just letting you know ahead of time that everything you do for the next year will be obsolete in the near future.

Re:Just when I think I'm out...

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't played in 2 months and I hope I can stop myself from getting this expansion. Damn addiction wastes so much time...

Anybody want to buy a lvl 80 warrior tank?

Re:I have a life

[edremy]

Which you spend posting on Slashdot on topics you don't care about?

Must be some new definition of the word "life" I'm not familiar with.

More info...

[H0p313ss]

... here!

Blizzard is brilliant

[brkello]

I am always impressed on how much Blizzard really "gets it" when it comes to making a game. Having the cataclysm occur on the original continents allows them to update those areas so that all areas can allow flying mounts. Due to the way the game was originally written, flying mounts are not allowed in the original content. This allows them to update and improve those zones while also making all the newbie quests better and more interesting. They learned a lot since it first came out, and you can really see that with their latest expansion. Quests are grouped together better and closer to the quest giver. They are more interesting (at least to me) than the original content. They use new game mechanics like vehicles. Now all that can be seen at level 1. Smart move.

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[geekoid]

every online game that did this failed soon after.
Blizzard isn't the first.

It's also been in many fantasy games.

Of course, based on history, Blizzard will pull it off. This doesn't make them brilliant.

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

So... every other game that's done this has failed. And you think Blizzard will pull it off. But even if they're finally able to do something that *no other* game has ever managed to do, you're insisting that doesn't make them *brilliant*.

Right.

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[SL Baur]

Due to the way the game was originally written, flying mounts are not allowed in the original content.

Strictly speaking, that's not correct. Flying is just an on & off switch that was apparently misset at one point in a TBC beta (there is video on youtube). The problem is with the graphic models. They were not designed to be seen from all angles and so in the places where it was "impossible" to see them, they didn't implement anything.

Given how *big* the old world is and how much time it took them to get Outlands correct, I'm not surprised that the developers have been kind of quiet. They are working their asses off.

Oh and for you "PvP" griefers who like to gank n00bs, expect the starting zones to be no fly areas like Wintergrasp. My prediction.

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[brkello]

Um, yeah, the way the original game was written (i.e. the graphic models), they did not allow flying mounts. I already knew this, but I didn't think the reason why they didn't allow them mattered, more that now they could be allowed. I never said it was technically impossible, so way to nitpick something that actually wasn't incorrect. I bet you are real fun at parties.

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[SL Baur]

Puhleeze. The only problem with your posting is that it is +4 insightful, when it should be +5 insightful. I agree completely with your conclusions.

There, better now?

I should have made this clearer, but there was a lot of confusion on mmo-champion when this stuff was first leaked a week ago. It's a data issue not a coding issue and for someone like me, that makes a difference.

Blizzard is doing so many things right in the expansion, as you pointed out, that they might be shooting themselves in the foot with regards to their planned next-gen MMO. Its biggest competition is going to be WoW, although with the battle.net changes, that may not matter so much if you can chat with your WoW guildies on the new game.

Pedantically yours,

Re:Blizzard is brilliant

[Rakarra]

Oh and for you "PvP" griefers who like to gank n00bs, expect the starting zones to be no fly areas like Wintergrasp. My prediction.

And Wintergrasp is no longer a no-fly area. :) You can fly over it, but once you land and start fighting, you can't mount up again.

Troll Druids?!

[MalleusEBHC]

I don't play anymore, but seriously, a Troll Druid? Is nothing sacred anymore? I can only imagine what kind of piss-poor retcon that will involve.

Re:Troll Druids?!

[rehtonAesoohC]

What were you expecting?!

In the first expansion, they put into the game space-faring goat men who, although crash landing in an interstellar spaceship, end up walking around whacking things over the head with a wooden club.

It's not like they have Tolkien working their lore department...

Re:Troll Druids?!

[Entropius]

Wait, what?

Is that something out of Scientology lore?

Re:Troll Druids?!

[EXTomar]

In this particular case, Druids probably do need to be opened up to more races but there are some strange combinations that are even worse "piss-poor retcon". This makes me wonder if this is "necessary" why bother having factions at all? Is it crazier to have Tauren Paladin and Human Hunters or just have Human Paladins grouping with Tauren Hunters?

Re:Troll Druids?!

[Achoi77]

it's a reference to the Draenai - an alliance race that was introduced in the first expansion.

Re:Troll Druids?!

[Domini]

My 2 lvl 80 night elf druids are turning over in their account-expired graves.

Re:Troll Druids?!

[SL Baur]

I like playing Spacegoats, you insensitive clod!

Re:Troll Druids?!

[SL Baur]

Is it crazier to have Tauren Paladin and Human Hunters

Human Hunters are already in the game! I saw it on TV!

Re:Troll Druids?!

[Rakarra]

Why not? Every single troll instance we've been in have involved trolls invoking the gods to empower them to change animal forms.. ZA, ZG, etc were full of that sort of thing. Druidic powers have never meant that the druid must be a worshipper of Elune or the Earthmother. There are all sorts of ways this could be done without any lore-twisting.

Cataclysm Trailer

[rehtonAesoohC]

For those interested, the trailer is on YouTube already: here.

What to do...

[Monkeedude1212]

See I quit WoW before WotLK because I knew it would mean that Burning Crusade Endgame would be pointless, much like Onyxia and MC and BWL and AQ and Naxx became pointless with the release of Burning Crusade. See I didn't have a problem with Vanilla Wow for that manner, you had to get attuned for Onyxia to get the gear good enough to go into Molten Core. You needed the Gear from Molten Core to progress to Black Wing Lair. So on and so forth (AQ could be argued though).

Anyways. So I was upset that all this really well generated Content was completely ditched with each new expansion, being that if you told someone about a 45 baron run and how pulling it off was the shiz, nowadays they'd either laugh at its easy sauce or just go "Whats a stratholme?"

And like mentioned in some other comments in other articles, their new leveling system makes it easier to level up, and actually bypass alot of the content along the way. If I can get my lvl 30 - lvl 40 sprint in 1 or 2 zones easily accessible to the alliance, why would I go to Desolace, why would I explore Mauradon or whatever?

So I quit Wow. It was TOO easy to progress to endgame, and everyone and their mother could epic themselves with little to no effort. Dropping the regular raid size from 40 to 25 made Raiding seem more casual, which it shouldn't have turned into. Make the raids 25 man accessible? Sure, but why drop 40 mans? Apparently they made a comeback in WotLK so I'll quit my bitching.

Anyways, so NOW they're re-introducing Azeroth, bringing it back. This is what I would want to see. Especially with Deathwing being prominent again, he's probably my favourite Warcraft Villain. For whatever Reason Arthas didn't seem all that badass to me because its really Ner'zhul controlling him.

So what do I do? Do I return to WoW, try to pick up all the complex and convoluted new additions, like new talent trees? Do I go back to WoW to see if they'll turn Gnomer into an actual city? (Prays). Do I Spend a good chunk just to get back into a subscription video game?

But what about the old stuff? If zones are changing, wouldn't that mean some of the old content is gone and lost forever? To live only in my memory? Will Black rock Depths be wiped out with a volcanic eruption?

I... I feel so torn...

Re:What to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

my best guess is that the changing zones will use the phasing they already use in the northrend zones ... read up on it if you dont know what I mean

Re:What to do...

[Seakip18]

It's like an abusive relationship.

I can't help but remember the good times and I keep hoping that if I come back, I'll get that sense of wonder when my toon took it's first steps into BRD. I remember the first time my toon helped drop Rag and Onyx....and then that big night when Nef died for the first time in our guild. The next week the expansion came out and it all went downhill from there it seems.

After that, nothing really seemed all that special. There was nothing like that first scholo or dead mines run.

I think Blizz should just slow down and release things slower so folks can actually enjoy the lead up grind. Let the game mature with each expansion rather than keep pouring on content faster than folks can wring the last drop of the last.

Re:What to do...

[pauls2272]

"But what about the old stuff? If zones are changing, wouldn't that mean some of the old content is gone and lost forever? To live only in my memory? Will Black rock Depths be wiped out with a volcanic eruption?"

If they use their "phasing" technology - both zones will exist. Pre-80 you will see the old BRD and post 80 (the Cataclysm event), the wiped out one. This allows them to have their cake and eat it too...

Re:What to do...

[imunfair]

I loved BC, but quit recently because 2/3rds of WotLK endgame content has been partially or totally rehashed art and combat mechanics from BC or before. Why should I pay a company money months on end if they can't actually manage to produce new endgame multiplayer content.

Examples:
Naxxramas (exact rehash)
Colosseum daily quest patch before instance (yay grind content!)
Colosseum (uninspired instance using old models)

That leaves us with 5 man content, a couple 1 boss instances and 1 full raid (Ulduar) in 10 months (since November 13, 2008). They just did a gear reset with the last patch, so now everyone gets to grind old content for a few weeks to pick up enough badges to buy a full new set of gear. Basically they've also just told you that once you manage to get the bosses down in Icecrown you can quit until the next expansion. No reason to grind it over and over when your gear will just be replaced at the next level cap.

I haven't played Guild Wars, but I'll admit that Guild Wars 2 looks tempting. After dealing with Blizzard I'd appreciate a game that could offer a lot of new content in a timely fashion.

Re:What to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

They won't use phasing. They confirmed during the information panel that they've reworked leveling 1-60, and that the world will be changed even for people without expansion.

Re:What to do...

[Mascot]

As has been mentioned a few times in the thread now, this will not be phased. The Old World will forever change. Leveling 1-60 will be a new experience, regardless of whether you have expansion or not.

Re:What to do...

[Timex]

From the FAQ:

Will I need the expansion to be able to experience the Cataclysm changes?

When the Cataclysm occurs, it will occur for all players, whether they have purchased the expansion or not--you will no longer be to play in the original version of Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms. However, certain features such as the new zones, new races, and new level cap will only be accessible to players who purchase the expansion.

So... Yeah, the "old way" will likely only live-on in our memory.

I'm personally very curious to see how this will work out. If nothing else, this will basically make it a whole new game-- for a while at least, starting a new character will mean not being familiar with the lay of the land, regions will have to be re-learned, etc...

I'm excited to see this.

Re:What to do...

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

It was TOO easy to progress to endgame, and everyone and their mother could epic themselves with little to no effort.

I'm sorry, but this reminds me of all the bitching and moaning that went on when they started letting people buy epic PvP gear with battleground honor....all the 1337 arena dudes were angry that their mighty e-peen wasn't guaranteed to be at least twice the size of everybody else's any more. For a couple of months it seemed like every time I set foot in a battleground, there was some wanker going on and on about "welfare epics" and how lame those of us were that were wearing them.

It also reminds me of the whinging about "ZOMG THEY BROKE TWINKING" recently, when all they've done is make twinks play other twinks. I guess it's no longer fun when you might have to win based on your skill and ability to work as a team instead of having the auto-win guarantee of twice the health, armor, and dps of your opponents.

For the raiding folks, I don't understand why this matters to you at all...so what if that other guild made up of stay-at-home-moms can gear up with little to no effort? Does that somehow diminish the fun you have playing the game?

Re:What to do...

[juuri]

But they did make it too easy. WoW was never a really hard game for 95% of the content after the first level of "nerfs". Some of the original content was quite hard in 5 man groups (This is before MC). I tried WoW recently with the free 10 days to see how it was... every class has strong components of the others, so generic. It's so mind numbing easy that I was surprised after nearly a year off that the learning curve to get back in was basically 15 minutes on any of my 70s. Don't get me wrong I am all for casual content but not at the expense of all of the content.

The OP was right about one thing, there exists *nothing* like the original 45 minute baron run, especially for those who weren't in high tier raid gear. Towards the end of my BC time, even without raiding anything other than the one 10 man, my characters, even my tank were running *very* fast paced heroics of all the 5 man content. We're talking running around from group to group, 3 manning lots of the content. Was it hard? No, gear inflation made it just too easy. There was no real sense of accomplishment anymore.

Re:What to do...

[bonch]

I'm sorry, but this reminds me of all the bitching and moaning that went on when they started letting people buy epic PvP gear with battleground honor....all the 1337 arena dudes were angry that their mighty e-peen wasn't guaranteed to be at least twice the size of everybody else's any more. For a couple of months it seemed like every time I set foot in a battleground, there was some wanker going on and on about "welfare epics" and how lame those of us were that were wearing them.

Those people were right. Arena gear purchasable with honor caused a huge wave of AFKers sitting out in battlegrounds for free gear, and it affected PvE because people would just skip dungeons and get the easy PvP gear instead. Classic battlegrounds like AV became a mindless 10-minute match as Blizzard further streamlined it by removing various NPCs.

Re:What to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm personally very curious to see how this will work out. If nothing else, this will basically make it a whole new game-- for a while at least, starting a new character will mean not being familiar with the lay of the land, regions will have to be re-learned, etc...

I'm excited to see this.

I'd be interested if they fix the problems with loot. HEY, BLIZZARD- if I have a quest looking for horse hooves, and I kill a horse, I SHOULD GET 4 HOOVES! WTF is up with getting only one?

If you're looking to 'stretch' the grind, then at least make it make sense. If I'm a fire-specced mage, have questgivers (sometimes) ask for "un-singed" wolf pelts or whatever, thus making me not use my primary spec. For a warrior who uses a sword, have the NPC ask for "whole" or "un-cut" pelts, etc. This makes the player have to either broaden their skill base (which takes time), or fight using non-optimum weapons/spells (which slows them down and takes time).

Also, if I kill a horse, I should get *4* hooves. Maybe one (or more) are damaged, but there should be 4 of them.

They should try, at least with Critters, to make the spawns a little less... jarring. Nothing ruins the moment more than standing in a field and having a mob just... phase in... right in front of you. Critters should spawn in nests or dens, ie: in a wooded area, there would be rabbit holes near bushes. Rabbits spawn in the holes (or at least in the bushes), and players only see them when they emerge. None of this 'appearing out of thin air' crap.

Of course, one of the main issues is the size of the virtual world- depending on the exact method you use, the "continents" of Azeroth are each about the size of the isle of Manhattan. You can run for 30 seconds and go from burning desert to snowy wasteland. WTF is up with that? At least make the size a LITTLE more realistic. Then, you can have the mobs spaced a little better. In some places, you have dozens of predators in sight... with no prey. Or dozens of prey animals in a few acres. I know you need to have mobs for players to farm, but it often gets freaking ridiculous.

Lastly, permanent changes should be possible. I should be able to burn down buildings (or forests!) with fire magic, accidentally or on purpose. Etc.

Re:What to do...

[oddfox]

That gear you're complaining about, the previous arena season gear, is not only complete crap for PvE (Compared to gear you can get as drops in instances) but it doesn't even cost just honor points. Lots of these items are purchased with tokens and badges or require a minimum amount of rating. You get what you pay for, and if you think you're hot stuff in your easy PvP gear, well, have fun getting owned.

As far as what's happened to AV, AV has been the way it's been since what, the release of TBC? To call it mindless is a bit of a stretch, though a lot of the time it does come down to a match to see which team can manage to b-line to the other factions bosses. AV is still fun, I don't see what your objection could be, and there are plenty of other battlegrounds with differing playstyles. Personally, I thought the old, original AV was just about the most boring thing ever until they streamlined it.

P.S. -- "huge wave" of AFKers is a bit of an overstatement. I hardly ever see this problem, maybe it's just because I'm lucky to be in the Cyclone battlegroup.

Re:What to do...

[SL Baur]

So what do I do? Do I return to WoW

Butters, go to the store, buy the online sensation, and install it on your computer before we all murder you. (Unless you really like playing Hello Kitty! Island Adventure better).

Re:What to do...

[Archimonde]

I'm sorry, but this reminds me of all the bitching and moaning that went on when they started letting people buy epic PvP gear with battleground honor....all the 1337 arena dudes were angry that their mighty e-peen wasn't guaranteed to be at least twice the size of everybody else's any more. For a couple of months it seemed like every time I set foot in a battleground, there was some wanker going on and on about "welfare epics" and how lame those of us were that were wearing them.

Completely agreed.

The players who profited the most with pvp gear was the ones who started arenas (5's mostly) immediately after they were introduced. Then just had to ride the wave and they always had the best pvp gear in game and with little effort. Those guys who started a bit later with arenas just got completely destroyed and that is mostly because of gear imbalance. Then I had to go back in battlegrounds to get some gear and then that epic gear through honor was introduced. But still it would be a total lie that type of gear was easy to get. It wasn't. It required a hell of a bg-time and tons of honor which was difficult to acquire if the opposite faction was winning almost every game. So after a few months almost any serious pvp-er outside of arenas had epic gear (which was still quite significantly worse then arena gear). But then those pvp seasons ruined almost all because they went by faster than I could get gear from battlegrounds, so it was perpetual grind and a big lag behind to get better gear. That was the reason I quit because I hated that grind and I hated the 4 battlegrounds which I visited 40million times.

Re:What to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Will Black rock Depths be wiped out with a volcanic eruption?"

Fuck, I hope so. I ran that terrible instance so many times for different reasons (from January 2005 to until LAST MONTH for the alts of friends) that I know every single pull and patrol. It's probably the longest and most annoying of all 5-mans in WoW, maybe with the exception of LBRS. A volcano erupting and melting that whole goddamn place down to lava sounds delightful to me.

Re:What to do...

[jo_ham]

It's a bit of a vicious cycle unfortunately. People say that they want brutally hard 5 man instances, but when something that isn't facerollingly easy, they complain bitterly.

Just consider that if the heroic daily is Occulus, people moan and moan about how it's a pain in the ass and too difficult, when it really isn't.

My favourite instance was Scholomance, back at 60 - it was hard. It was unforgiving, and the rewards were good if you could complete it. No 5 man is like that any more - I think Arcatraz was the last of its kind, and people never went in there, except to get the key fragment.

There are still some challenges in the game that are not just gear checks (Firefighter, Knock Knock Knock, One (or Alone!) In the Dark, but they are all raid-based.

Re:What to do...

[skrolle2]

...which is why there are hard modes for the raid content these days. The 45-minute baron run was their first attempt at a hard mode, and it could be overcome with good gear. The new Ulduar hard modes are certainly not easy, and they cannot be overcome with good gear. Gear helps, but ultimately you need very good coordination and execution to succeed. Let me tell you that pulling those off still feels like a great accomplishment.

As for dungeons, there is an almost exact equivalent to the baron run, which is the Cleansing of Stratholme run, also timed, and actually pretty demanding even in good gear. If you want different kinds of challenges in the 5-man dungeons, there's the achievements, some of which are pretty hard to get.

Re:What to do...

[Rayonic]

See I quit WoW before WotLK because I knew it would mean that Burning Crusade Endgame would be pointless, much like Onyxia and MC and BWL and AQ and Naxx became pointless with the release of Burning Crusade. See I didn't have a problem with Vanilla Wow for that manner, you had to get attuned for Onyxia to get the gear good enough to go into Molten Core. You needed the Gear from Molten Core to progress to Black Wing Lair. So on and so forth (AQ could be argued though).

So... you would have preferred that the level cap never be raised? That all of Burning Crusade have been level 60 content, with its raids being a continuation of difficulty from the old raids? So Karazhan would have been a harder 40-man than lv60 Naxx, and so on? That sounds like it would be a shitty game.

The whole point of playing the game is to play the game, and perhaps have a good time with other people. I don't remember people complaining that the Deadmines became obsolete by level 25.
 

So I quit Wow. It was TOO easy to progress to endgame, and everyone and their mother could epic themselves with little to no effort. Dropping the regular raid size from 40 to 25 made Raiding seem more casual, which it shouldn't have turned into. Make the raids 25 man accessible? Sure, but why drop 40 mans? Apparently they made a comeback in WotLK so I'll quit my bitching.

Grrr... those dirty pubbies are killing my bosses! They're getting my epics! Do you realize how silly you sound?

40-man raids were a huge pain in the ass to organize, and I'm glad they didn't make a comeback in WotLK.

Re:What to do...

[brkello]

I guess I just don't get it. Old content is old. The people who have been playing the game for years ran all those thing a thousand times. The new content is where everyone wants to go. Will new players miss out on that content you hold dear? Yes. Should you care? No. You still experienced it. You still can relate it with other people who experienced that stuff. You guys can reminisce about it while all the new players are confused.

It is funny, because you sound like an old person. Afraid of change and wanting everything to be like it was. But if it was like that, the game would be dead. It has to evolve and live to keep people playing. I don't think negatively of you, I just don't understand it. The changes they have made are largely good. Embrace the change and you can have new experiences. Living in the past is never healthy.

Re:What to do...

[Monkeedude1212]

I do feel old, at 21. Because the best time spent gaming was when I was 17 and 18 playing World of Warcraft with my buds.

However, we've all had our falling out with WoW because of various reasons. Money, wow-addiction, girlfriends, etc etc. Now that we've all matured enough to decide what we want to do, we can't seem to get back Into WoW because of what its become.

I may sound conservative, but I know alot of people who liked Burning crusade but think WotLK kinda bombed. I think I'd also fall into that crowd.

WoW zombies

[geekoid]

Grinds...Griiinds..

Re:WoW zombies

[oracleofbargth]

Grinds...Griiinds..

Holy cow level. Modded flamebait, but funny too.
I just wish I was quick witted enough to make it sound more like porn.

Blizzard is slipping.

[ddt]

Compare this Diablo 3 Monk Trailer that just came out in 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFGXKV_45HQ

With this Warcraft 3 trailer that was released back in 1999:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOdTeT1xUQQ

Pretty wild. A 10 year difference, and the WC3 trailer still looks better to me.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Shadow of Eternity]

cinematics vs supposedly actual engine footage. Although still D3 looks barely better than black and white 2 crossed with WoW.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this rated interesting? The Diablo 3 trailer is in-game graphics while the Warcraft 3 is pre-rendered. Apples and oranges.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[chrisG23]

Apples and Oranges buddy. The difference is the Diablo 3 trailer was not using pre-rendered graphics, instead was on display was using the in game engine. (Or the worst. graphics. renderer. ever.) The Warcraft 3 cinematic you linked to is a pre-rendered movie saved as a movie file that is played using whatever the WC3 movie player is.

Pre-rendered cinematics are nice, especially the ones made by Blizzard, and there will probably be some in the game, but I expect Diablo 3 to continue the trend that they used in WC3 to tell as much of the story with scripted cinematic events that make use of the game engine and don't have to break the contnuity of the game. And save money on production costs.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[felipekk]

Agreed. That Monk trailer wasn't impressive at all.

I'd rather have seen some gameplay videos from D3, which look a lot better than that trailer.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Annwvyn]

No kidding... even the original D2 cut scenes are comparable to (if not better than) the new D3 Monk Trailer. I'm not impressed... With some of the cinematics that they are putting out for WoW (like the WotLK trailer a year ago, which was purty) I had expected more. And looking at the web site... it just looks like they aren't putting a lot of effort into the game (or publicity)--at least not nearly as much as SC2 and WoW. Losing their touch... "...too little butter spread over too much bread." -B.B.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe because the D3 trailer obviously uses the ingame engine?

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Slayblaze]

You're right it does look a LOT better. It's all pre-rendered though, the D3 trailer is done all in-engine in a similar way to how they've done the last few WoW trailers. They don't look nearly as good but are still fairly impressive seeing as they are basically machinima using the game engine except its produced in-house at Blizzard.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Annwvyn]

True, the video is not pre-rendered... but the unimpressive graphics aside, the trailer just wasn't interesting to me. Trailers of previous games would show cool characters doing awesome stuff with nifty plot hint narratives and battles and big beasties, and the sweet pre-rendered graphics was what brought it all together as a bonus. This... it could have had awesome graphics and I still don't think I would have been very impressed. The CONTENT of the video was pretty meaningless/lack-lustre.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Anonymous Coward]

...the WC3 trailer still looks better to me.

But see, where the W3 clip was actually a cut-scene from the game, the D3 Monk clip was showing actual gameplay. To me, that was impressive.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[MaWeiTao]

You're comparing a pre-rendered trailer to a video made from actual in-game assets. Keep in mind that those graphics in Diablo 3 are not viewed so close up during gameplay. But if you're going to make this sort of comparison you should be showing an in-game cutscene from Warcraft 3.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Anonymous Coward]

Warcraft 3 was pre-rendered, Diablo 3 is ingame footage.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[ddt]

Not just talking about the graphics. The writing, voice-over, camera direction, and art direction on the 1999 cinematic is better, too.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[zaffir]

Even ignoring the graphics, the trailer is just crap. It made me less interested in Diablo 3 than I was before seeing it.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[TheThiefMaster]

What's with all the colour banding? Compression problems?
It was almost painful to watch because of it.

The rest wasn't bad for realtime.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[chrisG23]

That I agree with. Also the style and character of the Starcraft 1 cinematics to me were a highwater mark. This is just a demo presentation of a game that probably wont be out until 2012 so I will reserve critique and judgement a little bit.

Re:Blizzard is slipping.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the WC3 one is used as the opening cinematic for the game. The Diablo 3 one is just a trailer for a new class, of course they're not going to put the same amount of effort into it.

what it all means..

[otopico]

Another $45 to play new content for a game you already bought and pay $15 a month to play.

Hey Blizz, how about not charging for this one, say, maybe as a thank you to the suckers like me that have played for years and already bought the two previous expansions?

Re:what it all means..

[kitsunewarlock]

You didn't buy a game. You bought a temporary license that grants you an account on their servers. Its like bribing the bouncer at a club to get in. Then finding out the drinks are pricier than most and if you don't buy them continuously, you get bounced. Furthermore, you can get bounced for any reason, including drinking out of glasses the bar offers to its guests only to trap them. Finally, after you get in and drink a few drinks you learn what you've been drinking has been watered down. Real drinks require another bribe into a special part of the bar. That's the expansion.

WoW is like a Linear form video game. Except you have to pay $15 a month to keep playing. And there is no ending. And if you take too much time off to play something else, your accomplishments become meaningless or no greater than a "title" that can be obtained by a "normal" player in a matter of an hour or two.

Re:what it all means..

[otopico]

Good points.

Re:what it all means..

[zero0ne]

Wait? If I wanted to pick the game up again (sold the old account a long time ago), I would be required to buy the original game, plus the two expansions, PLUS this expansion when it came out?

What a joke...

Re:what it all means..

[centuren]

Wait? If I wanted to pick the game up again (sold the old account a long time ago), I would be required to buy the original game, plus the two expansions, PLUS this expansion when it came out?

What a joke...

You could buy a lvl 80 account, which is already authorized for all the current expansions, and download the necessary installers. Not exactly a Blizzard-supported option, but neither is selling one's account.

Re:what it all means..

[Anonymous Coward]

For those really into gaming $15 a month and $45/yearly saves money rather than spending $60-$90 on crappy games that rarely deliver as interesting content as WoW.

Re:what it all means..

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Considering that I don't think anything of paying $45 to go out for a nice dinner, and going to two movies per month costs me more than $15, I don't see how they're really busting my balls considering I get just as much entertainment out of playing WoW every month as I get from dinner and a movie. Hell, I spend at least five times the price of the WoW subscription just to have cable, movie channels, and high-speed internet available.

It just doesn't seem like it's worth griping about, to be honest.

Re:what it all means..

[juuri]

You don't think the 180 you are paying them a year should cover the expansions? What if you had played the original game for years? Considering Blizz sells the expansions to stores for much lower than the $40 you end up paying... it just seems quite petty to me. Where's the loyalty to your customers?

Re:what it all means..

[LiquidFire_HK]

To be fair, the original game is now dirt cheap, and so is TBC. I imagine TBC and WotLK will drop in price further when Cataclysm is released so the full thing will probably not cost significantly more than a standard game. Plus you get a free month with the game.

It's still expensive, of course, but not as much as it sounds.

Re:what it all means..

[Bacon Bits]

So quit. I don't see no gun to your head. Go play Runes of Magic or Oblivion.

Re:what it all means..

[Anonymous Coward]

Another $45 to play new content for a game you already bought and pay $15 a month to play.

Hey Blizz, how about not charging for this one, say, maybe as a thank you to the suckers like me that have played for years and already bought the two previous expansions?

Just because you bought "World of Warcraft" doesn't mean it's the same game. Plenty of development time will go into creating this expansion that it will be worth $40-50. How many hours do you play all the console games that you payed $60 for? Comparitively, how many hours of content has WoW given you for $50 + subscription fee? Don't forget that online multiplayer has a subscription fee on some consoles!

Because I bought Halo 1 should I get Halo 2 and 3 for free because it's a "game I've already bought?"

Poor reasoning.

Re:what it all means..

[jo_ham]

Because it's free to print and distribute the install discs and documentation and box art right? And the rent on the store, and the wages of the retail employees?

The subscription you pay covers the servers, bandwidth and network techs... which are also free right?

Loyalty only extends so far - there are several businesses involved at all steps on the chain.

The download client (complete with "CD" serial key) costs the same as the retail box, which I admit is a little off, since the distribution costs are hardly the same, although the various development costs with the art team and developers etc are rolled in with the expansions I am assuming.

Re:what it all means..

[mrchaotica]

Does the total (original game + TBC + WotLK + Cataclysm) cost more than $50? If so, it's too fucking expensive!

Re:what it all means..

[skrolle2]

TBC was, in its time, the fastest-selling video game. Two years later, WotLK beat the record and became the new fastest-selling video game of all time. A lot of people whine about the expansions costing money, but if they can put full retail price on those and STILL sell millions over the first weekend, why wouldn't you? It shows that the whining is empty, people are still willing to put down the money for the expansions so it makes perfect business sense to charge for it.

Re:what it all means..

[skrolle2]

Ok, bye bye. The 11 million current players apparently disagree with you, and they're a pretty compelling reason for Blizzard not to lower the price since it makes absolutely no business sense for them to do so.

Re:what it all means..

[Anonymous Coward]

> "Where's the loyalty to your customers?"

They have it and are exploiting it, but not beyond a threshold the market will not bear.

Re:what it all means..

[Draek]

Or what, you'll cancel your account? as if.

There's no harm in asking, I know, but unless you provide an incentive for them to do so I don't see why they would just give it away.

Re:what it all means..

[otopico]

Blizzard never purges character information, so you would only have to pay for the expansions you didn't previously pay for. And in the case of the most recent expansion, the DVD (or download) will install the client for the player based on if they 'upgraded' their account to either expansion. So, if you stopped before Burning Crusade, you would have the updated version on the lvl 1-60 game installed.

Blizzard got this part very right. Just because you leave a game, there isn't an absolute need to erase your character data in case you come back.

Re:what it all means..

[otopico]

More people should understand this simple fact. Good job AC.

Re:what it all means..

[tuxedobob]

I know of someone who's sold his account three times over. It works like this:

1) Sell account.
2) Call Blizzard.
3) Account is transfered back to original owner.

I really hope someone he scams calls Blizzard to report it.

Re:what it all means..

[SwabTheDeck]

You don't think the 180 you are paying them a year should cover the expansions? What if you had played the original game for years? Considering Blizz sells the expansions to stores for much lower than the $40 you end up paying... it just seems quite petty to me. Where's the loyalty to your customers?

Welcome to the free market. If you think the pricing structure is unfair, don't buy it. If enough people feel the way that you do, they won't buy it either and Blizzard will change the pricing structure. I'm tired of hearing this ridiculous argument. If people are willing to pay, then the price is fair! That's how this system works.

Re:what it all means..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, a company actually receiving money for their product is a terrible thing. McDonald's should give out free fries to everyone who orders a burger, too. I mean, I'm sure they're still making money either way. Where's their customer loyalty?

Re:what it all means..

[Rakarra]

Does the total (original game + TBC + WotLK + Cataclysm) cost more than $50? If so, it's too fucking expensive!

By what metric? You'll get far far more to do, far more content, especially for new players, than any other game you could get at that price range.

Re:what it all means..

[mrchaotica]

Yeah, except that the content's value for WotLK and especially TBC would have depreciated due to age, and apparently the original game's content is going to be removed altogether.

The jokes become reality....

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Really, I was just joking all those times I said "LFG heroic Deadmines" in trade chat...

And here come the militant uncaring...

[Jeian]

Every time someone posts something about Blizzard or WoW, there's always someone (usually a pathological WoW-hater, it seems) who jumps in to tag the article with "whocares" or post something to that effect.

Sorry to break it to you, but one of the biggest companies in computer gaming announcing an expansion to the most successful MMO in history (not to mention the SC2/D3/unnamed-new-franchise stuff)... is news for nerds.

Re:And here come the militant uncaring...

[bonch]

And Britney Spears albums sell more per year than Mozart concerts. So what?

Re:And here come the militant uncaring...

[oddfox]

WHOOSH!

Re:And here come the militant uncaring...

[SL Baur]

My wife likes Britney Spears. I am not going to hold that against her.

If you enjoy your mother's basement, fine, but maybe you should get outside more often.

Re:And here come the militant uncaring...

[Anonymous Coward]

/trade qq more nub lol

Two-Thirds My Ass

[Stu Charlton]

Between Malygos & The Nexus, Obsidian Sanctum, and the fact that Ulduar is , er, quite huge, I think there's some sour grapes there.

The new Colesium 10/25 raid has some quite fun encounters; Faction Champions in 25 is a fun grawl, and Twin Val'kyrs has a unique twist. Of course, this is all to get people to gear up for Icecrown, so there's not another Sunwell debacle where most people don't get to see that content.

I don't get the bitterness about grinding, it's inevitable that something new will always be added - you never will "win" the game. The only reason there is to go hardcore or to grind it out is to be "first". And with the achievements / title system, you get to brag about it afterwards, if that's your thing.

Re:Two-Thirds My Ass

[imunfair]

I'd break down the WoW players into a few catagories based on what they enjoy:

1. Exploration
2. Challenge (raiders)
3. Grinding (collectors/professions/achievements)
4. Rewards (loot/gold)


I find the challenge aspect of games fun, as well as the exploration. Aside from Ulduar the exploration aspect after you hit 80 is done, so you're left with 2,3,4.

Ulduar itself is a hollow shell of what it used to be. My guild wasn't hardcore raiding, but we managed to get the first bosses down before any nerfs happened. Now XT is a joke compared to what he used to be - hard mode is slightly easier than normal mode used to be. Colosseum is a joke difficulty wise, so #2 is out the window.

#3 will always be around, and loot used to be based off raiding, but now they've made it based off grinding instead. So if your reasoning follows mine the question comes down to - do you enjoy grinding for items that will be obsolete in the next patch or expansion at the latest? Is doing that really more fun than all the other possible games out there?


Now as far as the 2/3rds number:

EoE(Maly)/OS/VoA are good for maybe 30 minutes of playtime each max per week if you actually know what you're doing. (Not sure why you mentioned Nexus since it's a 5 man) Even counting those though you're looking at 19 Naxx bosses + 5 Col bosses Vs. 14 Ulduar + 4 Other. So 57% rehashed endgame content.

I'm not even sure if it's fair to give them credit for Naxx in the 8 months count since it was released with wrath, as was a lot of the other content. If I don't count it that means they've only released a major raid every 4 months - which is really slow, especially for one of the raids being a 5 boss room basically. I don't think an average of a new boss per week is too much to ask - of course that's assuming they would actually make the boss hard enough so you could spend a night or two of attempts on him.



TLDR:
WoW has turned into a "hurry up and wait" of getting your gear in a couple weeks and then paying blizzard to not play for a couple months until they give you a new tier.

Re:Two-Thirds My Ass

[DarkBlackFox]

If you're going to complain about the challenges in WoW, please tell me you've done all the hard modes in 25 man Ulduar, including Mimiron (Firefighter), Freya +3 Elders (Knock, Knock, Knock on Wood), Algalon, and Yogg-Saron with 0 keepers up.

Unless you are/were in a top 100 guild, you don't have Algalon or Yogg+0 down in 25 player mode, because they are exceptionally challenging, and dare I say, fun encounters that actually require a raid with some semblance of skill/attention/situational awareness.

And for Colosseum, they're only releasing one boss per week on the normal (easy) difficulty 25 man. Once all the bosses are out, and it's been cleared, the Heroic 25 man (hard mode) difficulty unlocks, and until you clear that, there is no room to complain about challenges.

I'm sure Icecrown will be the same- an easy 25 man mode so the casual players get to see content, and a heroic 25 man mode for those looking for a challenge and better loot.

I do find it funny when people complain about content being too hard (OMG NERF!), and when Blizzard releases easy modes for new encounters, those same people complain about things being too easy. Can't have your epic cake and eat it too.

Re:Two-Thirds My Ass

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'd find it more enjoyable to have equipment that you continue to upgrade, rather than continually replace stuff. You simply can't GET higher level gear until you get lower level gear, and any extras you put on the lower level gear get carried over as you progress (perhaps even scaling the way the heirloom items work, only scaling with the item level rather than your level). That way I wouldn't see it as a waste of gold to enchant an item that I may well replace soon (all depends on how lucky I get in dropped loot or what I get from a quest - I'd prefer that I don't have to know everything about every quest and instance etc. before I do them because if I don't I can't make optimal gear choices and if I don't make optimal gear choices I can't compete in PvP and no one wants me in their group ("must be geared!"), etc.) So some way of having my gear level with me rather than simply getting replaced continually and allowing investments I make in upgrades to carry over.

I basically have no intention of spending lots of gold on gear or upgrades until I get to 80 - and if instead the cap was 85, then I wouldn't bother until then as well.

What better MMO?

[Stu Charlton]

Srsly. I'd like to know.

I've tried Conan, LOTR, Warhammer, and Eve. Eve was cool but different playstyle. Warhammer was also cool but the social aspects were botched IMO and it's too PVP focused (though I still have an account). LOTR is pretty close, admittedly. Conan didn't click with me.

The only MMO that looks like it might really give Blizz a run for their money is Bioware and the Old Republic.

Re:What better MMO?

[BollocksToThis]

Warhammer was also cool but [...] it's too PVP focused

Yes it's irritating, based as it is on a tabletop game of compelling story and roleplay.

Tauren Paladins

[CFBMoo1]

The wise Sir Moodemir was the first to join Thrall's Tauren Paladins, but other illustrious names were soon to follow:

Sir Mooselot the Brave; Sir Moolahad the Pure; and Sir Moobin the Not-quite-so-brave-as-Sir-Mooselot who had nearly fought the Dragon Onyxia, who had nearly stood up to the vicious Chicken of Felwood, and who had personally wet himself at the Battle of Hillsbrad; and the aptly named Sir Not-mooing-in-this-expansion. Together they formed a band whose names and deeds were to be retold throughout the forums, the Moos of the Round Stolen Table From Silvermoon.

Re:Tauren Paladins

[OnomatopoeiaSound]

I'm sorry, but I can't hold it in any longer. I've been reading and reading the thread and I haven't seen it yet. Tauren Paladin? HOLY COW!

Re:Tauren Paladins

[otopico]

WIN

new races non-alliance or horde?

[dAzED1]

In World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, players will be able to play as two new races -- goblins and worgen -- as they explore newly revealed parts of Azeroth and re-experience familiar zones across Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, areas rewrought by the cataclysm and filled with new opportunities for adventure.

Well, so - what do we know about those two races? Goblins are already all over, and thus have places they can be already. Booty Bay, K3, blah etc. What's important about these places is that they are neither alliance nor horde; in fact, alliance and horde players can use auction houses in goblin areas to buy from each other.

Worgen are killed equally by both horde and alliance. There are a few town-esque areas already established for them.

So...is blizzard going to keep the theme those two already have, and have 2 new player races that aren't associated with a faction? Seems like it be hard to do the group thing at that point...

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[Anonymous Coward]

So...is blizzard going to keep the theme those two already have, and have 2 new player races that aren't associated with a faction? Seems like it be hard to do the group thing at that point...

Huh? Why not just ask "are they going to have Laser Guns?" I'm not sure what mind would conceive of adding races that arent associated with a faction when

A. There's no specific reason they wouldn't be.
B. Blizzard stated they will be.

Wtf is wrong with you.

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[SL Baur]

So...is blizzard going to keep the theme those two already have, and have 2 new player races that aren't associated with a faction? Seems like it be hard to do the group thing at that point...

I'm wondering about that too. I have Ambassador of the Alliance on two toons. I also have Goblin rep to honored with all of my toons leveled far enough to get to STV.

The expansion mostly sounds cool, but I will be seriously bummed if they take away Booty Bay from Alliance.

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[HoppQ]

Booty Bay and the rest of Azeroth's goblin towns are part of Steamwheedle Cartel, while the new horde-joining goblins are from a different cartel, so from a lore standpoint there wouldn't be any reason for Booty Bay to change into Horde hands (in fact, it could theoretically be more hostile to the new goblins from a lore point of view, but it'll probably stay the way it is).

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[Archimonde]

It is easy to answer, those already present goblins/worgen will get different tribe names (some of them already have). There will be quests to explore why you have to kill them by the thousands (probably some eeeevil magic or potion or whatever). It is not a difficult thing to solve actually.

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[SL Baur]

That's what I would have thought, however, the Goblin sequence in the trailer looked suspiciously like Booty Bay getting trashed and the hordie Goblins were fleeing from there.

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I read that the new goblins are not the Steamwheedle Cartel and therefore the addition of the new race will have no effect on the existing goblins in areas such as Booty Bay/K3 etc.

Re:new races non-alliance or horde?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple;

Goblins - Not all Gobs will join the Horde, only the ones that got their home blasted.

Worgen - These are special Worgens, in that they kept their Humanity or something.

/ A. Cowardson

Old versions of the zones

[VGPowerlord]

It's not yet clear whether the old version of the damaged zones will still be around in some form, but look for an explanation in the next few days.

Really? The FAQ over on the Cataclysm page is quite clear about this:

Will I need the expansion to be able to experience the Cataclysm changes?

When the Cataclysm occurs, it will occur for all players, whether they have purchased the expansion or not--you will no longer be to play in the original version of Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms. However, certain features such as the new zones, new races, and new level cap will only be accessible to players who purchase the expansion.

Phasing in WoW:C...

[antdude]

Phasing idea sounds awesome and complex, but how will this work with low levels players vs. the high level ones? Will they be able to see and interact each other in in a shared area like Stormwind, Kalimdor, etc.? Or will they be kept separated?

Re:Phasing in WoW:C...

[Hashey]

There will be no phasing in the old world. Azeroth changes for *everyone*. Read, FFS.

Re:Phasing in WoW:C...

[brkello]

They will be able to interact normally in the cities if it is similar to how it is now. Just certain zones people will not be able to see each other if they are in different phases of the game.

Re:I have a life

[letsgetsilly]

Sir, we are dealing with people here who have absolutely no life. Even though my existence is tenuous as I post mildly referential material on slashdot topics, I just can't give up on the World... of Warcraft...

Planetside

[Spedge]

A Cataclysm changes the maps into something they weren't before? Shame the idea's already been done in Sony's Planetside - and it didn't go down all that well. If you wreck the good bits, replacing it with bad - there'll be a backlash...

Diablo: Hellfire

[brilanon]

The forgotten expansion pack by Sierra for Diablo 1 also added the Monk class. Which was OK