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Why Games Cost $60

eldavojohn writes "Crispy Gamer is running a very interesting article on why games cost $60. Many games start out at this retail price — but why? Did the makers of The Beatles Rock Band game just happen upon $59.99, as did the makers of Batman Arkham Asylum? After all, those two titles surely took different amounts of man hours to develop, and result in different averages of entertainment time enjoyed by the consumer. They interview a director at Electronic Entertainment Design and Research, who breaks down the pie as $12 to retailer, $5 to discounts/returns/retail marketing, $10 toward manufacturing costs and shipping. That leaves $30 to $35 in the hands of the publishers. Though lengthy, the article looks at three forces of economics on why game publishers continuously end up in lockstep for pricing: sensible greed, consumer stupidity or evil conspiracy. When asked about the next step up to $70 or $80, Hal Halpin (president and founder of the Entertainment Consumers Association) says, 'I'm not sure that we'll see a standard $70 price point at all. To my mind, emerging technologies, subscriptions and episodic and downloadable content should all enable price drops — increasing accessibility to a much wider audience.'"

536 comments

  1. Its justified price by sopssa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Many games start out at this retail price â" but why? Did the makers of The Beatles Rock Band game just happen upon $59.99, as did the makers of Batman Arkham Asylum? After all, those two titles surely took different amounts of man hours to develop, and result in different averages of entertainment time enjoyed by the consumer.

    It's the same thing with movies and music. There's a certain "standard" price everyone goes with, because if they didn't, it'll affect their sales. Going a bit over the standard decreases sales, going a bit less than the standard can increase them. You have to find the fine line.

    And to be honest, they $60 price isn't that much if it's a great game. You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies, probably even more if you make a night out of it. You might spend the same amount in bars too. Both of those give only a few hours of entertainment value, and to be honest aren't all that fun all the time. Good games give a lot more entertainment and fun hours. My stats for Left4Dead show 947 hours and I've probably spend *a lot* in WoW too. And dont even get me started on the civilization and settlers series.

    That being said, I would probably try more games if they were cheaper. But I still will get the games I want.

    $10 go toward cost of goods sold, which includes manufacturing the game disc, shipping the games to the store, and anything else directly related to production and delivery of the game package.

    I think digital delivery is something that can bring this price down a lot. Yes, bandwidth does cost, but its nothing like producing tons of dvd's, packaging them, sending them all over the world and delivering to stores. And the user experience is usually a lot nicer, you can easily buy it without walking to store.

    And to be honest, game development is no cheap business and it's getting even more costly all the time. Yeah you could argue that theres great indie games that have been developed at cheaper budgets, and you're right; there are. But their budgets also are $10 000 - $100 000. It means you have to get lots of sales. And indie developers really cant produce the games like Call of Duty series (specially the modern warfare ones!) and Left4Dead and Half-Life 2. There is place for indie developers, but you need professional commercial game developers too.

    1. Re:Its justified price by omgarthas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, Batman is a very nice game, I enjoyed it, but after 10 hours, I'm done with it and it offers no replayability (sorry spelling), on the other hand, other games (specially RTS or Tycoon series), cost 45$ and I would spend my entire life playing those if I could

    2. Re:Its justified price by skeletor935 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The thing I hate most is that for xbox360 (sure it's the same for PS3 but I don't own one so I don't know) every game is $60. Some games definitely deserve it like the huge RPG games with fantastic stories and voice acting and emersive worlds, the great multiplayer FPS games, and so on. Then there's the other games, which probably spent a quarter as much time in development than the much better games, and all of a sudden the developer is like "hurr hurr it's in high def and on the 360 it's worth $60" Games based off movies come to mind first-- usually terrible mock ups hashed together for insta-profit from the movie's success. Some cartoon graphic puzzle games next. And some blatantly terrible games.

    3. Re:Its justified price by LordPhantom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Frankly, to some degree I think the current cost of games is a bargain, especially if you compare the price point versus development costs of games of even 5-10 years ago. Paying $60 for a 40-100 hour RPG experience complete with full score, FMV and incredible rendering that took thousands of man-hours to produce is actually pretty cheap.

    4. Re:Its justified price by Mex · · Score: 1

      Wow! Except for your personal experience on L4D (which I hear is a pretty good game), you kind of summarized exactly all the topics the article covers. Someone only read the summary ;)

    5. Re:Its justified price by SensitiveMale · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies, "

      I don't. Matinee prices for me or I wait for the DVD.

      I won't pay $70 for a game either. I got burned by immediately paying $50 for the unplayable Splinter Cell Double Agent PC game and I swore off paying those prices. Saved me another $50 when Wolfenstein turned out to be sucky as well but for different reasons.

      On the other hand, I paid $20 for Killing Floor and I've put hundreds of hours into that game unfortunately. I'll get Left4Dead when it hits $20 as well.

      You suckers keep paying $50 and $60 for games and the prices will only go higher.

    6. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that I think your point is wrong, but I'd point out that WoW is not the best example to use here. Not only does WoW cost LESS than the 60 dollar price point - but it brings in $15 dollar a month subscription fees, as well as multiple other fees they collect (for character transfers, faction swaps, etc.)

      I'd avoid the games that have monthly fees when talking about this subject - they are a whole different beast. Yes, you can make the point that they provide continued free content and host servers for their game, but there is a reason that WoW is one of the most played (and most profitable) games out there - and it isn't because of a 60 dollar price point.

    7. Re:Its justified price by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      It's the same thing with movies and music. There's a certain "standard" price everyone goes with, because if they didn't, it'll affect their sales. Going a bit over the standard decreases sales, going a bit less than the standard can increase them.

      That's close, but I think the second part of that sentence is "...and there's no reason to go less, since consumers are willing to pay $60."

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    8. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My stats for Left4Dead show 947 hours and I've probably spend *a lot* in WoW too. And dont even get me started on the civilization and settlers series

      You need to get out more.

      I know I know, I must be new here.

    9. Re:Its justified price by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Going under the 'standard' price can also decrease the sales since gamers will think the game isn't worth the higher price simply because you didn't try to get it at launch. There's so much momentum for that price point that it's hard to break it unless you're a blockbuster hit, which is how we got from $50 to $60 not long ago.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    10. Re:Its justified price by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      Who spends $15 to go to the movies? All the theaters here are $8.75 for a ticket, or less if you have a student id and go on an off night.

    11. Re:Its justified price by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Actually you can get left4dead for 18e ($26) from http://www.g2play.net/store/Left-4-Dead/ . It's a little over your $20, but close enough and its a great game (yes its a legit store, as confirmed by EA staff here )

    12. Re:Its justified price by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies"

      I pay 8-9 dollars and that is in a new cinema.

      Yes, I will spend more it it's a night out, but not more on cinema ticket.

      I don't go to bars. Boring places full of boring people most of whom are vapid.
      At least that was my expedience when I was a bartender, many decades ago.

      Of course you are basing the starting point for your argument on a false dichotomy. That video games are camparable to a night out.

      You should be comparing video game price against developments and other prices in the same field.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why I pirate all my games. Yaarrr! http://www.demonoid.com/

    14. Re:Its justified price by sopssa · · Score: 1

      I'm not from US so I dont know the exact price (8-9e here), but going to movies is not the only expense. You usually buy candy/popcorn and lemonade and other things too. Maybe even pay the ticket for your date. (btw, watching a girl you're dating playing a game is a lot more fun :)

    15. Re:Its justified price by sexconker · · Score: 2, Informative

      A movie ticket costs me $6.75 at the matinee.
      That's not $15.

    16. Re:Its justified price by Avalain · · Score: 1

      He's probably making that false assumption that guys on /. have girlfriends.

    17. Re:Its justified price by Flentil · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, we've all heard that argument before. Minute for minute versus a movie ticket. It doesn't matter. $60 is still too much for them to continue charging as they lower costs through direct downloads and other means. Yes, it costs a lot to produce the original, but then you see, they make virtually limitless copies of that original for pennies each. They could sell these games for $20 and still reap huge profits.

    18. Re:Its justified price by sexconker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Tetris was free with my Game Boy.

      Best game ever.

      Not best video game.
      Best game.
      Ever.

    19. Re:Its justified price by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only thing though, its a $60 risk. Even great studios have turned out crap games. I remember really liking Yoshi's Island and when a "sequel" came out (Yoshi's Story) I ran out to buy it for around $60, it was a terrible game, I finished it in about 2 hours and ended up trading it for like $15 to a used game retailer. There have been games that have been critically acclaimed but I simply can't get into them. Sure, $60 is a bargain if you get a truly epic game, but at least for me, I only get one "epic" game per console and the other games on the system simply aren't worth $60. If every game was a great value as, say, The Orange Box, I would have no problem shelling out $60, but you have crap games mixed in. Other times, yeah, you pay $60 but the game is so crippled that you end up paying $40 in DLC to get the "full" game.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    20. Re:Its justified price by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Since when was 30% over asking price "close enough"?

      And who in their right mind would buy L4D with L4D2 coming out so soon?

      Valve seriously dropped the ball / got greedy with L4D. We were promised tons, and got shit. But hey, we should all go out and buy the sequel which promises the exact same things!

    21. Re:Its justified price by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Don't you also have XBox Live Arcade for some cheaper games (don't have xbox so wouldn't know personally)?

    22. Re:Its justified price by dougisfunny · · Score: 1

      With a name like sexconker I'd expect you'd enjoy something along the lines of strip poker better.

      --
      This is not the funny you're looking for.
    23. Re:Its justified price by kalirion · · Score: 1

      And who in their right mind would buy L4D with L4D2 coming out so soon?

      And by the time L4D2 hits @$20, L4D3 is coming out. If you're looking for close to bargain-bin prices, you give up the expectation of playing games during their "prime". Which is perfectly fine for single-player games, but your online mileage may vary.

    24. Re:Its justified price by CyberLord+Seven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And to be honest, they $60 price isn't that much if it's a great game. You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies, probably even more if you make a night out of it. You might spend the same amount in bars too. Both of those give only a few hours of entertainment value, and to be honest aren't all that fun all the time. Good games give a lot more entertainment and fun hours.

      When was the last time you got laid taking a chick to a video-game?

      Value is where you find it, my friend. :)

      --
      We have always been at war with Eurasia!
    25. Re:Its justified price by nomadic · · Score: 1

      And to be honest, they $60 price isn't that much if it's a great game. You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies, probably even more if you make a night out of it. You might spend the same amount in bars too. Both of those give only a few hours of entertainment value, and to be honest aren't all that fun all the time. Good games give a lot more entertainment and fun hours. My stats for Left4Dead show 947 hours and I've probably spend *a lot* in WoW too. And dont even get me started on the civilization and settlers series.

      And though some of you may be too young to remember this, games today cost only slightly more than the games of $20 years ago; yet they cost a lot more to make (though this is offset by efficiencies of scale). An A-list retail computer game in 1989 could easily cost 40-50 dollars.

    26. Re:Its justified price by ReverendLoki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some of us have wives. They still make you buy a ticket for her to get in.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    27. Re:Its justified price by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      That's what some of us call being cheap. Enjoy though.

      I often am too, I don't like spending the money on new games at full price, but I sometimes do because I know they're worth it.

      I bought Burnout Paradise on the first day, and I've been playing it ever since. I completed it and wiped out my saved game to challenge myself to do it again faster. Could I have waited till it was $20? Sure. Was it worth the extra $40? Definitely.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    28. Re:Its justified price by Guitool · · Score: 1

      Wahoo... my call girl request 150$ for only one hour... but my dreams are wet and longer than with Rock Band ! Hopes the digital call-girl version will be cheaper !

    29. Re:Its justified price by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Download it first. If you like it, pay for it. If not, delete it.

      If the game doesn't allow for that (say an online game with no free tryout period), then don't buy it. If the game is good, they'll want you to enjoy a free trial. That'll be their best sales tool, if it's good. The only reason to prevent you from trying before buying is because they know it sucks and you won't buy it unless it's a "pig in a poke"...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    30. Re:Its justified price by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Lets not get into this l4d2 discussion again, but I'm actually quite happy with them. There's a few DLC's coming for free in just 4 days, and they're improved the game a lot during its process. Introduced new gameplay modes and similar, thats not so usual. And the fact l4d is a great game and I've spent pointless hours on it.

      It can be great thing for the community too. l4d2 takes a bit different approach and those updates really wouldn't fit the original game. With it's multiplayer system I'm sure you'll find people playing both games all the time too. l4d2 is so different from the original game that it's good they've made it another game - and the amount of time and fun I've got from L4D, I'm sure as hell gonna buy the second one too - and still play first one aswell.

    31. Re:Its justified price by shentino · · Score: 1

      Consumers are only willing to pay 60 dollars because they have little choice other than to do with out.

      Besides, if consumer willingness to shell out the dough was a reasonable standard, then why do we even need competition in the first place?

    32. Re:Its justified price by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      buying candy and popcorn and Soda at the theater is a horrible idea, because it's outrageously priced. Buying a ticket for your date is a good idea, but that would be like buying a second copy of the game for her to play, so the ratio of movie-price/game-price stays pretty close.

    33. Re:Its justified price by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      ... I usually buy candy/popcorn and lemonade and other things too. ...

      Note the correction, turning a false and ridiculous statement into a true one.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    34. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you have actually been there in a while...

    35. Re:Its justified price by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      I should note that I'm not arguing that a game isn't worth more than a movie, I'm just pointing out that the price ratio isn't quite as close as you might think.

    36. Re:Its justified price by coldmist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And, how much does it take to make a movie? $50 million? $100 million? And, how much does that DVD cost? $20, or even $10 at Walmart?

      --
      Don't steal. The government hates competition.
    37. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $60 is excessive. Much like how online game subscriptions used to be $5 and now are $14.99 or more, it's the reason why people pirate so much. Or did you not read the old pirate/developer interview about that?

      Think of the people who have 10, 20, 30 games. at 60$ a piece, that's an excessively expensive collection for something that's going to be obsolete in 2 years ish. Original nintendo games were $39.99 and plenty of people balked at that value.

      This is both a: collusion, b: greed, and c: moving people way from gaming in general. It's also why steam does so well, because you can actually get games in the $20-40 range.

      I have a $2400 computer, believe me I can handle expensive games. However, at least I can do a hell of a lot more with the PC such as watch bluray without having to buy a player (thanks again piracy).

      Oh hey ,here's a simple summary. Why do games cost $60? DRM.

    38. Re:Its justified price by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      here's a special trick you can do: don't give people money until they are only asking for an amount you're willing to spend. I just picked up Mirror's Edge AND DC vs Mortal Kombat for a total of £10. From a major retailer.
      If you don't want to spend $60 on a game, don't do it. Don't even complain about it. Just don't do it.

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    39. Re:Its justified price by EvanED · · Score: 1

      An A-list retail computer game in 1989 could easily cost 40-50 dollars.

      Yeah... that's the surprising thing to me. I remember bugging my parents until they got some SimCity 2000 collection, and that was ~$50. Later when I bought games, they were often around $50. So I don't see $60 as unreasonable. I just don't buy many games.

    40. Re:Its justified price by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      A free trial can be very misleading though. For one, it doesn't really show the difficulty of the game or how short/long its going to be. I've played many games with a good idea, good plot, and fun gameplay but either had badly balanced difficulty (randomly became too easy or too hard), games that either have been too tedious (run back to the area a long ways away then run back), too short or had other features that made the game stand out.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    41. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not different from other mediums. Hollywood, literature and the music industry doesn't produce less crappy titles compared to the games industry. At least you can try the demo, before you buy, when games are concerned.

    42. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Not to mention, they only cost $60 if you buy them right after they come out.

    43. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could pay very little more and get a lot less shady deal off Amazon.

    44. Re:Its justified price by GigG · · Score: 1

      Most none /.ers take a date.

      --
      Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
    45. Re:Its justified price by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      If you actually used Demonoid, you would have known the site has been down for more than a week.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    46. Re:Its justified price by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Some of us have jobs that make matinees all but impossible on weekdays, and matinee times fall during the best times to do work/cleaning around your house/apartment.

      Further still, some of us have wives, girlfriends, fiancees which basically require 2 tickets.

      On top of that, movie popcorn is just so damn good.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    47. Re:Its justified price by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      And if you play a videogame for a week, you'll probably also in that time have a six-pack of soda, various snacks, several full meals, etc, so really that means that even if a game seems "cheap" compared to a night at the movies, the full "Video Game Experience" will end up costing you nearly $200!

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    48. Re:Its justified price by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can rent just about any new DVD for $1 a night and get the full enjoyment of the movie. On the other hand about the cheapest place that I know to rent games costs $7 for about 3 nights and you can't experience the entire game. When I walk into Barnes and Nobel if I feel like it, I can sit down in a chair and read the -entire- book, not just chapters one and two. You can type in almost any song into YouTube and with enough searching you can find it, listen to it and listen to it over and over again. With games you are limited to a demo where the creators have picked a few parts of the game that may or may not really represent the game.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    49. Re:Its justified price by bickle · · Score: 1

      I think digital delivery is something that can bring this price down a lot.

      Digital delivery will never reduce the price to consumers. As we have seen time and time again, the consumer price says the same and the extra profit goes to the companies. Just look at the new pricing model for games for the PSP Go. Sony just announced that the cost of games on UMD's and digital delivery will be the same.

      If anything, it will cause prices to increase in the long term. Digital delivery makes episodic content more viable, and the combined price of episodes is almost always higher than a single game.

    50. Re:Its justified price by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      More recently than the last time I got laid after going to a movie

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    51. Re:Its justified price by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      What the industry really needs to normalize is the "secondary" market. Instead of preventing used game sales, take a hint from the book publishing industry and _promise_ a price cut by releasing a "paperback" version (maybe downloadable?). Not only does it service people like yourself who are willing to wait longer to pay less, you get a second wave of hype for the title - "now in 'paperback'"

    52. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong about 1 particular point. I spend $1 to go the movies because I wait a month after movie release, see it at the discount theater (even if I didn't wait, I can still see a matinee for $6, not 15!), and am too cheap to pay $5 for popcorn. It can take far longer than that to see any kind of pricedrop in games.... But overall I agree, $60 is a very fair price for a quality game. Especially when you consider that the prices of everything else have gone up must faster, food and fuel (and therefore shipping/distribution) being obvious examples.

      And as for the article's talk of same price for different games with drastically different production costs. Remember, we vote with our dollars. So it's thanks to the idiots who have more money than they have sense that we ever see a low quality game, or a cheap casual game, go for the same price as an epic accomplishment in entertainment that took hundreds of people several years to produce.

    53. Re:Its justified price by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't. Matinee prices for me or I wait for the DVD.

      Indeed. It seems like every time anyone quotes the price for a trip to the movies on the internet they just have to go to the most expensive theater in town, at peak times, and just have to order the obligatory 64oz overpriced fountain drink and 1 gallon bucket of popcorn, leading to the exaggerated prices on the web.

      When I go to the movies it's often earlier in the day at the cheaper theater in town. No food - I'll go out to eat afterward (there's a nice sushi place 2 spots down from the theater that some friends and I like to go to). Tickets are $2.50 each and I can watch anything I want as soon as it's released.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    54. Re:Its justified price by Jerry+Smith · · Score: 1
      Note the correction, turning a false and ridiculous statement into a true one.
      I guess he's from abroad, he might even be Dutch. *cough* What you wrote was what he meant to say, so the 'false and ridiculous' statement was more a 'strange and improvable' statement. There. Now get back on topic please.

      ;o)

      --
      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
    55. Re:Its justified price by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I blame frat boys. $60 copies of Madden and Tiger Woods every year is a hell of an income stream, and they're too stupid to realize they're simple rehashes of the old games with slight graphical tweaks.

    56. Re:Its justified price by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Consider it a licensing fee for the player data/stats, the game tweaks are free! How much did you pay for that licensed jersey?

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    57. Re:Its justified price by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, but the publishers are the problem. You think they're just going to let any company kick them out of the loop?

    58. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The physical DVD may cost $10, but all the work behind it surely doesn't. You don't think all the soundtrack, sound effects, artwork, maps and level design, physics, storyline, game engine, online servers, etc falls from the sky, do you ?

      You know that real people with real jobs working full time produce this kind of stuffs after countless hours of work, right ?

      JFYI: It is said that during the 5 years period it took to complete Killzone 2 the total budget was around $60 million

    59. Re:Its justified price by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Go to your local library if they do this: $2, 1-week game rentals. That would help you out a lot.

    60. Re:Its justified price by COMON$ · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Exactly, I will rent many games because the rental times now are so friggin long that I can get my enjoyment out of them in a week or two.

      However, there are certain games where I have more than gotten my money out of them, namely, Zelda Ocrina of time(still have no clue why I am compelled to play this game start to finish every year or 2), 007 Goldeneye, Mariokart 64 and wii, Starcraft, Warcraft III and baulders gate II (even though only played through once, the hours discussing, playing and thinking alone have put pennies on the dollar for enjoyment.)

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    61. Re:Its justified price by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Those Hollywood figures are including actors, sets, effects, and the fact that they are the publishers, so there's a step less in the chain that needs to reap profits. You didn't even bother to mention developer costs for games, or the cost of having the companies deal with publishers, and publishers deal with retailers, so your argument is null and void, sir.

    62. Re:Its justified price by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      I don't know about DC VS Mortal Kombat, but Mirror's Edge didn't sell too well. It's easy to get games that tanked for really cheap after at least a couple months.

    63. Re:Its justified price by blackraven14250 · · Score: 4, Funny

      and I've spent pointless hours on it.

      Learning how to survive with 3 other people against a horde of zombies is NOT pointless.

    64. Re:Its justified price by PenguinBob · · Score: 1

      $15 for a movie ticket? Where are you going? It only costs $7.50 for me.

    65. Re:Its justified price by demonbug · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree - I refuse to pay $60 for a game, so I don't. For my PS3 I've bought all of my games used (see, game publishers? Instead of getting a reasonable amount from me, say $40 - $45, you get nothing!), or waited for the price to come down.

      That said, when Gran Turismo finally comes out I'll pay full price (although I have the nasty feeling they are going to jack up the price on it - hell, I stopped by a GameStop the other day and they were charging $35 or $40 for GT5: Prologue). There is an occassional game I'm willing to pay that price for, but I would consider it a very special, once-per-system kind of price for a game.

      Fortunately PC games haven't quite gotten to the same price point (yet).

    66. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      every game is $60. Some games definitely deserve it like the huge RPG games with fantastic stories and voice acting and emersive worlds, the great multiplayer FPS games, and so on. Then there's the other games, which probably spent a quarter as much time in development than the much better games, and all of a sudden the developer is like "hurr hurr it's in high def and on the 360 it's worth $60"

      The thing is that if we use the numbers of the article (a bit simplified) and say that 30$ goes to development cost and 30$ goes to retailer, etc. to which developer can't affect that much... Developer shouldn't ever put a smaller price tag.

      If developer lowers his profits by half, the game only loses 25% of the price. That is unlikely to double the sales regardless of the quality of the game (especially as people are used to paying 60 for each game) so the developer nearly certainly simply loses money if he puts a lower price tag. If he could halve the price by halving his profits it would be a really good idea: Sell many smaller games instead of a few larger ones. That just isn't an option available for a developer.*

      In fact some people might instantly associate "It's cheaper than usually? It must be a bad game..." which might be true but it still makes the developer lose the little extra profits that lowering the price could grant him.

      (*At least not with the traditional methods. Other option is for the developer to sell games online but that has it's own problems. Getting to the retail area means that a company can no longer simply concentrate on developing games but must begin dealing with all sorts of totally different stuff such as customers returning their product, etc... Or offer their games through third party's system such as Steam which again has it's own issues...)

    67. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "$12 to retailer, $5 to discounts/returns/retail marketing, $10 toward manufacturing costs and shipping" I dont belive those nombers, its less! thats why a poor guy from Argentina like me need to do piratery!

    68. Re:Its justified price by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      The most recent game I bought on the basis of a free demo was Crysis. I am glad I did but I paid far less than half price as a I bought it off a friend who had it sitting around as unwanted gift.

      When I completed it I do remember thinking it was pretty short and I would have been a bit disappointed if I had paid full price, especially when you consider they did not bother with the expense of a testing team :)

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    69. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why Games Cost $60

      BECAUSE: that is what the market will bare.

      TFS makes it sound like price at retail is a function of cost of production. It's not. It's a function based on how many units they can sell at what prices. Costs only factor in to decide if they are going to make them at all.

      Stop paying 60$ and they will stop costing 60$.

    70. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And to be honest, they $60 price isn't that much if it's a great game.

      Hahahahahhahah!

      How long you been in that pot, mr frog?

    71. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      947 hours for Left4Dead? You sir are the biggest loser.

    72. Re:Its justified price by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Who spends $15 to go to the movies? All the theaters here are $8.75 for a ticket

      The kids, teens, and other young people who make up most of the moviegoing demographic, that's who. Factor in ridiculously sized and even more ridiculously overpriced soda and popcorn and $15 might be on the low end.

      Same thing with games, the people buying most of the games have a lot of income that is disposed of on entertainment because they have much more time and much fewer financial obligations than many of us. I have more money than I did back when I was buying a new game every week, but I also am willing to spend less per game now. In retrospect, several of those games I paid $50 or $60 for I wouldn't have bought for $10.

      The bigger commodity for at least me though is time. I typically have less than 10 hours a week to play games in. When I was in college, if I bought a crappy game I'd eventually play it because I ran out of good games. Today I don't even get to most of the games I'm very interested in. Left 4 dead seems fun. Maybe a few years from now, after I finally beat Fallout, Bioshock, and Rock Band, I'll think about getting it. Anyway, lack of time means I'm more discerning. I dont' want to pay $60 if there's a good chance I'll only play it for an hour before getting more interested in Fallout, and the new game will sit on my shelf for a year.

      So I blame the kids that make up most of the entertainment industry's profit. They're the ones who have poor tastes, too much money, and too much time. High prices and low quality are partly their fault.

    73. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The are downsides to 'digital only' is console locking, pc locking, user locking. Also what if the company that distributes it goes out of business? I can still play games from 15 years ago. Would I still be able to play those if it was a digital copy? Maybe if I was good about my backups and the installer didnt do something weird. Would I be able to still play say Star Trek Judgment rights if Interplay had been digital only? I doubt it.

      I have also noticed that a year after release some games the prices are still 'high'. That is not normal with games. Is the demand really there that they can justify the prices? It usually is this way because lets face it most games are crap. Then there are the mediocre ones, then the 'must haves'. Prices usually stay high for the 'must haves'. Then the mediocre ones nose off pretty quickly. The crap ones just disappear. Instead I am seeing 40+ on games that really should cost a LOT less at this point in their life cycle.

      Also the physical part is 1/6th of the price at 10$ for s&h&packaging. Not exactly a large component of the price. Digital is about cutting out the middle man and control of how you use your software.

      If I want to give a game away to someone it is easy. Here is a pile of cds and the boxes/books. With digital there is a hassle involved and you need a 3rd party to 'authorize' it for you.

      My 360 recently ate itself. I have 4-10 games that are 'digital only'. I probably can get them back if I buy another Xbox. But what if MS turned off the spigot? It does happen. Also another interesting side effect from the 360/wii is the use of 'points' to buy games. That is a marketing scheme to make you not think about points as money. The ps3 uses money. But I could see them going to points in the future too.

      Digital only games are going to happen in a big way in the future (you can say now with some games). But I am saying there are downsides to not owning the physical game.

    74. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only difference is that movies are released to theaters first, which is where they earn back the production costs. The DVD sales after that are just to get extra profit. Games are released straight to dvd, you don't have to go to a "Game" theater to play it for the first time.

    75. Re:Its justified price by Phoenixlol · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      One person simply not buying a game may not do much to bring down prices. It takes complaining sometimes to get others on your side and assist in a boycott; which may or may not get results.

    76. Re:Its justified price by sopssa · · Score: 1

      I'd know it'll get back to me, but i actually meant countless :) Damn no editing button.

    77. Re:Its justified price by scribblej · · Score: 1

      I bought LittleBigPlanet -- I play it together with my girlfriend. Believe me, it's gotten me laid plenty. Excellent investment.

    78. Re:Its justified price by rainmaestro · · Score: 1

      I never quite understood why it tanked like it did. I enjoyed Mirror's Edge. Granted, it was pretty short, and really relied on you falling to your death a lot to reach a reasonable play time.

    79. Re:Its justified price by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Actually you can do what I do.

      Video Movie rental stores also rent console video games. You can rent the game for under $5 to see if you like it. Then in three or six months you can buy it used from the Video store or Game Stop for $30 or less when people who didn't like the game sell it to the used game stores. If you wait 1 or 2 years, you can get it for under $10 used.

      But it still sells for $59.99 new, unless the store has a sale. Used games are the ones that get discounted. Just get Skip Dr. or some other DVD repair kit to repair the scratches, and even if you don't the Video rental stores will fix scratched disks for like $2 each.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    80. Re:Its justified price by kaffekaine · · Score: 1

      > Some good points deleted....

      I think digital delivery is something that can bring this price down a lot.

      The downside to Digital Delivery is that for most devices this gives the hardware manufacturer a "lock" on distribution to completely control price (witness Apple, although they've been smart about it and not gouged). There is no longer any competition (except between H/W manufacturers) they can set the price on stuff and there is no competition among content producers or used markets, or retailers, anymore, once established, the manufacturer can completely dictate retail prices to the developers.

      So, the cynical side of me suspects that system providers will simply use the lack of physical media to boost profit margins and pocket the difference rather than significantly dropping the "standard" price for goods once consumers are locked in. I would imagine the millions of copies that console games sell allow a significant economy of scale for manufacturers.

      You'll also probably see more of this trend where the initial game is half complete/low content and then you buy the rest of it in bits and pieces via DLC, too. We'll see if they drop the price in that scenario, so far the track record has not been good.

      I agree about development costs going up for developers.

      It seems that if the manufacturers are eliminating manufacturing and distribution costs for the publishers, that just leaves marketing as their only really useful function (assuming they are decoupled from the "studio").

    81. Re:Its justified price by swimsaturn · · Score: 1

      Good point, though I can imagine that your average movie outsells your average video game by a factor of 3-6 (plus video games don't have box office profits).

    82. Re:Its justified price by 7Prime · · Score: 2, Informative

      From what I heard, it promised A LOT more than it delivered. I remember friends raiving about it for months like it was going to be the second coming of Jesus. The trailers even had me peaked. But I hear that the control system was messy, the game was repeatitive, and short. Marketting hype can often backfire on you if you're not careful. That's a big problem. It seems that it sorta deserved its tank.

      --
      Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
    83. Re:Its justified price by Gravatron · · Score: 1

      Also remember things like the lower buying power of the dollar compared to when we were younger. I remember $80+ SNES games, a HUGE sum in today's money. Relative costs of games have actually dropped quite considerably, even compaired to 10 years ago.

    84. Re:Its justified price by Exception+Duck · · Score: 1

      Yes, bars are always filled with boring people...

      Get a life....

    85. Re:Its justified price by wipeMyButt · · Score: 1
      It's one thing to be a cheap bastard, but to be so self-righteous about it is really something kind of special.

      Matinee prices for me or I wait for the DVD.

      These are also subject to the same kind of fixed price points as regular priced movies and video games. The point is, there are prices the market generally comes to accept as "reasonable and standard" in everything. Movies, music, games, doctor's appointments, etc. Stick close to that price point and people will accept the cost as "that's what x costs". Start to exceed that level and you stand out as overpriced.

    86. Re:Its justified price by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be the "Greatest Hits" or "Game of the Year" edition?

    87. Re:Its justified price by russ1337 · · Score: 1

      So, the cynical side of me suspects that system providers will simply use the lack of physical media to boost profit margins and pocket the difference rather than significantly dropping the "standard" price for goods once consumers are locked in.

      I recently heard a different theory (on This week in tech), where we're actually paying for FORM, not CONTENT.

      The price is based on the method we receive the content, not the 'value' of the actual content itself.

      e.g: Songs. $15 for a CD no matter how good/bad the music is. 99c for download no matter if it's a latest track or an old one. (Exceptions are the bargain bin with old stock).

      The theory appears to hold relatively true with exceptions of course. And there has recently been efforts to try to break the mold by having music priced on popularity (i.e the content itself) but these structures are still only emerging.

    88. Re:Its justified price by genericpoweruser · · Score: 1

      Where do you live!? I only have 2 theaters to choose from here: the good one, $8.25 per viewing, anytime; and the cheap one, $6.50 matinee/$7.50 regular, takes about 2 months to get new movies, and only has one screen.

      --
      A fool and his lamb are worth two in the bush.
    89. Re:Its justified price by MoriaOrc · · Score: 1

      Yes, we've all heard that argument before. Minute for minute versus a movie ticket.

      Yes we have, and I'll admit to being more then a little tired of it (especially in discussion about MMOs and monthly costs). However, if you look closely, the person you replied to said that the increase in development costs of a game today compared to a game one or two console generations ago has been much higher then the increase in the retail price of the same game, which is a completely different statement.

    90. Re:Its justified price by Geoff-with-a-G · · Score: 1

      [facepalm]
      He's not talking about a boycott. He's talking about simply not buying games that cost more than you're willing to pay for them. Let's say you only kind of want Modern Warfare 2. But they're charging $70, ZOMG. Do you:
      A. Buy it, but complain to all your friends about how expensive it is?
      B. Organize a boycott, in an attempt to let them know you really love the game but think they're evil facists and it's your RIGHT to have their game for $50.
      C. Simply not buy it, until the price comes down to $30. If the price never comes down to $30, never buy it. After all, you only kind of want it. If you really, really wanted it, then it would be worth $70 to you.

      The answer we're looking for here is C.

    91. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cost/"Value add" chain

      Developers/Artists/motion capture hardware -> Game design company -> publishers -> retailers
      Actors/Set/Effects -> Movie Producers -> Film "Distributors" -> Movie Theaters
      A/S/E -> Movie Producers(DVD) -> wholesalers -> retail vendors

      Sorry, your point was? If you'd tried to point out how movies have two channels/experience models for recuperating their costs, you might have had a point. However the length of the supply chain is usually at least as long for movies as it is for computer games.

    92. Re:Its justified price by vertinox · · Score: 1

      It's the same thing with movies and music. There's a certain "standard" price everyone goes with, because if they didn't, it'll affect their sales. Going a bit over the standard decreases sales, going a bit less than the standard can increase them. You have to find the fine line.

      If you a monopoly or a cartel, you can set the price to whatever you'd like and people will still buy it because either they do with it or do without.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    93. Re:Its justified price by nobodyman · · Score: 1

      You suckers keep paying $50 and $60 for games and the prices will only go higher.

      While I'm in the same boat as you (I just bought Bioshock for $5 through D2D), I wouldn't necessarily label people who pay full price as suckers. They're paying a premium to play right away and that's their prerogative.

    94. Re:Its justified price by NeoThermic · · Score: 1

      Then there's the other games, which probably spent a quarter as much time in development than the much better games, and all of a sudden the developer is like "hurr hurr it's in high def and on the 360 it's worth $60"

      Clearly you've never seen the requirements MS throw down to even get your game on the 360. It's not just a case of 'get SDK, make game, sell it'. There's controller conventions, UI considerations, bug testing (and jesus, even insane you-would-never-do-these-action bugs still need fixing), etc. Hell, to put it into perspective, the GAME, not the console, has to deal with a memorycard being removed during the write process.

      It's never a case of 'hurr hurr high def 360 == $60".

      --
      Use my link above, or to view my server, NeoThermic.com
    95. Re:Its justified price by hysma · · Score: 1

      Tuesday nights or weekend matinees are just $4.25 here. $6.25 for regular priced showings :) Oh, and that's in Canadian dollars, too. Screw paying $12 at Cineplex when local competition blows them away.

    96. Re:Its justified price by gknoy · · Score: 1

      So true. One of the best dates my wife and I had was when my mother in law watched the baby, and we went to In-N-Out (~$10), and then to the theater, where we spent ~$3 on our tickets. We both laugh about it being a cheap date, but we both think it was pretty awesome.

    97. Re:Its justified price by cowscows · · Score: 1

      The only problem with your argument is that you're wrong. Every game isn't guaranteed to earn piles of money (except for a handful of very popular franchises). Sure, they can print as many copies as they want without spending any more, but unfortunately for them, pressing discs doesn't make them any money. They have to sell all those copies before they get paid. Many games don't even earn back their development costs. That's why developers/publishers go out of business all the time.

      Company A might make $150 million dollars selling a game that cost $100 million to make, but then on the other side of the balance sheet is a game that aslo cost $100 million to make but only brought in $60 mil in sales. There are still people making big piles of money, but it's not as cut and dry as saying that ooh Microsoft sold $300 million dollars worth of Halo 3, it cost $100 million to make, so that means Bill Gates has $200 million more in his bank account. Much of that extra money goes to help pay for games that didn't earn their costs back, or in the case of someone like MS, to pay to repair all those broken 360's.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    98. Re:Its justified price by Shane+dot+H · · Score: 1

      Wait, you're saying that because more types of people are involved in making movies than video games, there's a step less in the chain? I'm not following. Besides, many movies are published, marketed, and distributed by companies that played no role in the creation. Not every studio is owned by a huge, vertically integrated media corporation.

      So which is it? Do movies cost more or less to bring to market? Is it more or less complicated? And does that explain why movies can be sold for $10-20 (or $20-30 for Blu-Ray) while games are sold for $50-60?

      Alternatively, we can go with the explanation that nothing you mentioned is relevant to pricing, and that your post's parent was right.

    99. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Kinda what I do. I just picked up Bioshock (new, not used) for 20$(for the PS3 - not the PC one, I know that's a good deal cheaper). I don't "need" a game right-away, I'm willing to let the price come down. Good games endure the test of time anyway. When it launched I know I was going to want to play it, but not at 50+$. The one game I have made an exception for is the Beatles Rock Band. /shrug - every now and then, there's a game that's truly worth the extra cost.

    100. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone paid well for a chance to boost his karma! Next we're gonna be calling you Eldavo!

    101. Re:Its justified price by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      .There is place for indie developers, but you need professional commercial game developers too.

      Please note that "indie" is not synonymous with "!professional"...

    102. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Did somebody say strip poker?

      Here you go. Some classic games you ought to check out: http://girls.c64.org/ (NSFW)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    103. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most games will drop to $20 in 6 months time (usually after Christmas). Even the greatest hits eventually drop to that pricepoint, so I wait until that happens. One of the best games I ever got was Space Channel 5, parts 1 and 2 which for some reason Sega released at only $10 per game. Nice bargain.

      Don't pay $60 for your games. Don't even pay $40. That's too much.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    104. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I *love* short games. They are the kind I can play over and over, like Resident Evil 2 or Eternal Darkness. Those 50-hour marathons drive me nuts because they move so slooooow. That's why I've only ever played FF7 twice in my life - it's a good game but just too darn long.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    105. Re:Its justified price by Sancho · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For multiplayer games, time can be a dealbreaker. When it came out, Little Big Planet was quite successful. Lots of people bought and played it. All of my friends did, that's for sure.

      Now that it's cheaper, I was considering getting it. However, since my friends have all finished with it, a large part of the enjoyment will be gone. Even if I get someone to help me through the puzzles that require a second player, they'll probably just be directing me through them.

    106. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Paying $60 for a 40-100 hour RPG experience complete with full score, FMV and incredible rendering that took thousands of man-hours to produce is actually pretty cheap.

      Yeah.

      Too bad most of those RPGs are dull and I quit after only 10 hours. So that's what? $6/hour. About double the cost of a movie (~$3.50/hour) and 3 times more than a TV show (~$2 per hour) but not as entertaining as those other formats. This is why I prefer to wait until RPGs and other games drop to a reasonable pricepoint of $20 or less.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    107. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In College Station, TX, the matinee prices for movies are pretty cheap, too. Two theaters in town:

      http://pccmovies.com/theater.php?rtsID=22759
      ($4.50 matinees)

      http://www.cinemark.com/theater_showtimes.asp?theater_id=182
      ($3.50 matinees)

      Parking is free and abundant at both, though driving is somewhat mandatory due to the lack of public transportation and the fact that both theaters are pretty far away from most residential neighborhoods.

    108. Re:Its justified price by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Well done, sir. Not specifically on the content, but on knowing the correct spelling of prerogative.

      When most people use the word, they forget that it has two 'r's. Or they never knew.

    109. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that's AFTER a theatrical release, Pay-per-view Release and selling the rights to some broadcaster. Not to mention money from tie-in products.

      And even then, the volume is completely different.

    110. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>I remember $80+ SNES games

      Nintendo was just greedy. (Sorry if that offends you, but it's just opinion.) Back when Atari ruled as the #1 console (1977-84) the games cost just $30 brand-new; $20 if they were older catalog titles. The most expensive Atari cartridge I ever bought was Star Raiders for $40 but it came with a free controller, so it was worth it.

      Then along came Nintendo with their NES in 1985, and they charged twice as much as Atari had charged. I never could figure that out. It's one of the main reasons I stuck with 8/16-bit computer gaming where prices were reasonable (or even free).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    111. Re:Its justified price by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 1

      At least that was my expedience when I was a bartender, many decades ago.

      Maybe if you took your time you would have enjoyed your patrons a little more :-P

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    112. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, you could also take this article's thrust the other way, and go "Why movie tickets cost 12$?" when clearly, games offer so much more.

    113. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Correction: "I stuck with 8 and [32] bit computer gaming". I've never owned a 16-bit machine, since I skipped over that generation of computers.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    114. Re:Its justified price by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you got laid taking a chick to a video-game?

      Value is where you find it, my friend. :)

      To be completely fair it's not likely he would get laid taking a chick anywhere. In fact, this whole "taking a chick somewhere" premise seems to be a bit shaky.

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    115. Re:Its justified price by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>bought all of my games used (see, game publishers?

      The game publishers are working to close that door. That's why they are pushing downloadable games so hard - you can buy or sell them on the used market.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    116. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Check the inflation rates. $30 in 1984 money is roughly $62 in today's money.

    117. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the size of the market, though? I would wager more people have DVD players than X360/PS3.

    118. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much does it take to make a movie? The cost of the camera, and the tapes. How much are they willing to pay to make a movie? That's a different story.

    119. Re:Its justified price by Pay1day.com · · Score: 1

      Agree. The amount of time it takes to produce top notch games like Call of Duty, GTA, Batman, etc. all deserve the $60 we throw thousands of hours of our time playing on our entertainment systems. Cheap games are usually not fun.

      --
      www.pay1day.com
    120. Re:Its justified price by sexconker · · Score: 1

      They can't buy their own ticket?
      Popcorn at the theaters is fucking trash.

      Either way, with blurays, surround sound, an hdtv, a hot air popcorn popper, and a goose-down couch, I go to the dentist more often than I go to the theater.

    121. Re:Its justified price by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Getting a Tetris is very sexual.
      (It's where you jam the long 1x4 piece into the slot, and clear 4 lines at once)

    122. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Further still, some of us have wives, girlfriends, fiancees which basically require 2 tickets.

      So make them lose some weight until they fit into one seat.

      Or don't be so polygamist.

      Whichever.

    123. Re:Its justified price by Xugumad · · Score: 1

      > And the user experience is usually a lot nicer, you can easily buy it without walking to store.

      I have to disagree. For any recent game, it's just too big. I picked up FEAR 2 on Steam yesterday (it's half price this weekend), and rapidly discovered that actually downloading it will involve tying up my Internet connection for a significant number of hours. Given I sleep in the same room as the computer (and therefore am not leaving it on overnight), what this amounts to is that it will take me significantly longer to download, than if I'd just had it posted to me.

    124. Re:Its justified price by Starayo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      USD$60 is a reasonably fair price for games. I would pay it happily and indeed I do on steam for PC Games.

      Now somebody explain to me why games in Australia cost up to USD$95.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    125. Re:Its justified price by Avalain · · Score: 1

      Which is why the Grandparent said it cost $15 instead of $7.50.

    126. Re:Its justified price by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      I thought it was actually really good - unique controls and movement ability, which really wasn't messy once you get used to it, an interesting and well-constructed environment, and it's very stylish overall, in a good way. I'm guessing it wasn't liked by a lot of people because it *is* so different from typical games. Most people probably passed on it when they got confused by the controls and didn't give it a chance, and others when they realized it wasn't a run and gun game (you can play the whole game without firing a single shot if you're good).

      It didn't promise more than what it delivered, but I think the hype may have misrepresented what it was going to deliver because people were expecting something else. Basically, the people who didn't like it were not expecting something that was so unlike typical FPS games. Those who understood what it was trying to do and were hoping that it was actually different from typical FPS games, like myself, were pleasantly surprised with how good it actually was.

      It is a little repetitive, but actually, it is less so than most any other recent FPS I can think of. The puzzles are all based on running and jumping, yes, but because the movement mechanics are unique and the puzzles are always set in different environments with multiple possible pathways, it never felt like I was just doing the same thing over and over.

      It was kind of short, but it was satisfying. And you know what? Gears of War was shorter, and far less satisfying, and that was a huge hit (and not just for the multiplayer, which I didn't think was very good).

      I feel silly defending a game like this, but I really did like it, and since it's so cheap now ($20 or so at most stores) it's definitely worth giving a chance if you haven't.

    127. Re:Its justified price by Time_Warped · · Score: 1

      Hmmph, It has to be one heck of a game for me to shell out that much cash, and that was before the economy went south. Typically I won't bother with anything over $40 unless it has absolutely top reviews and these days I seldom consider anything over $30. For every "keeper" quality game like "Civilization", I have at least 2-3 that I played a few times and then got bored with. Board games are a better value for the money than many computer games, and I hardly ever play those anymore. OH yes, I EXPECT the game to be BUG FREE if you want me to pay big bucks for it. I don't recall ever needing a PATCH for a board game.....

    128. Re:Its justified price by herojig · · Score: 1

      Ha, it's been up a lot longer that that though... and a great place for gamers, as reviews are posted immediately so u can find out if the game is any good even before you bittorent it. What I don't get is why games are so cheap for the iPhone (albeit they are also "free" on appoulous).For example, Maddon NFL 10 is 9.99 on that platform but much higher on the others, and just as fun.

      --
      I think therefore I can't be ~TTNH
    129. Re:Its justified price by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      I realize I'm no average woman, but for what it's worth, I'd rather play a video game with a guy than go to a movie with one. It's more personal and you get to be more involved. I also happen to think if you're going to play a video game with somebody, the Wii is the best choice cause you get way more physical than you do with the other systems.

    130. Re:Its justified price by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Sounds just like every commercial software project I've been involved with over the last 20yrs?

      Without knowing the effectiveness of MS's xbox method I can certainly understand any branded console maker wanting to filter out crap from their title list, even a casual observer will see that the brand will live and die by the software it runs.

      While I'm an O/S agnostic I do think that since the advent of XP, MS are incorrectly blamed for what are essentially application faults and malware infections inadvertantly installed by a faulty chair to keyboard connection.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    131. Re:Its justified price by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      You pay atleast $15+ to go the movies

      Where the hell are you going to the movies at? Friday night movies in downtown Philly cost $10 max and I'm sure that's high compared to most places.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    132. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's probably a zelda phenomenon. i played a lot of games since the c64, and zelda - a link to the past is the only game i keep coming back to every couple of years (start to finish, all heart containers).

    133. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In NZ some are hitting US$100 new now

    134. Re:Its justified price by StreetStealth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whenever a post like this shows up, I always have to check to see if someone actually modded it insightful as well.

      You guys never disappoint.

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    135. Re:Its justified price by plilov · · Score: 1

      ... and I've probably spend *a lot* in WoW too.

      You can type /played to see how much you spent on a wow char btw :)

    136. Re:Its justified price by BurningFeetMan · · Score: 1

      Well, they forgot to mention the "shipping down under" piece of the pie, obviously.

      Steam is your friend.

    137. Re:Its justified price by grumbel · · Score: 0, Redundant

      It's easy to get games that tanked for really cheap after at least a couple months.

      It doesn't have all that much to do with a game tanking, the prices of all games fall drastically over time. The highly successful ones for example turn into platinum/classic editions or are easily available used. If you can wait half a year you can get most stuff for half the price or less, sometimes even quicker. I haven't bought a single game for full price in a long long while, as there just isn't much need to get a game on launch day with prices falling so quickly.

    138. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Just for comparison, what are rental prices and times for where you live? In my town it's 1.50€ per day.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    139. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I remember friends raiving about it for months like it was going to be the second coming of Jesus.

      I've noticed that more and more games get hyped up to that level. Maybe that's what the industry is producing now, hype. Once the hype wears off the game's value hits rock bottom and you can get it everywhere for cheap. There's got to be SOME reason why the dirt cheap games don't destroy the market for 60$ games.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    140. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      And they're going to lose sales over that. The customer decides where the market goes, not the companies and there's a lot of evidence that even the silent majority isn't going to accept this whole digital distribution crap.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    141. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Because you peckers will buy them at that price.

    142. Re:Its justified price by Anti-S · · Score: 1

      I wish games were that cheap here in Norway. We also pay close to a hundred USD for a game :(

    143. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      In Europe prices go above or below 100USD depending on the currency fluctuations. Today it's above. To be fair Wii and PC games are significantly cheaper (73 USD today).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    144. Re:Its justified price by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Games that tanked go for much cheaper than successful games, and they generally get a price reduction more quickly. These days I don't see classic/platinum editions anymore. At least not of console games. And I was only referring to new games.

      For example, after half a year, successful games get reduced to about 30 euro, while games that have tanked go for 20 euro, 15 euro or even 10 euro (if it really tanked badly and they need to get rid of their stock).

    145. Re:Its justified price by Cyanara · · Score: 1

      Wow. Your local computer store is pretty cheap. EB out my way generally charges about $110 for any new title. I don't think they sell COD4 for less than $100 yet. Initial price seems to be on the rise too.

    146. Re:Its justified price by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Don't even complain about it.

      Marketer parasites just love it when uninformed consumers make decisions based on incomplete information with the only information available being marketing propaganda and not other consumer opinions. Ignore marketers completely. They're just trying to manipulate you.

      Purchase is only one market signal. Consumer opinion is another.

      Complain to high heaven. Again and again. Whenever you feel like it. It is almost your duty in a free society to express your opinion, positive or negative. Whatever the propaganda merchants might try to tell you.

      It tanks a product? Good. Maybe next time they'll try selling a quality product that self-sells by word of mouth instead of attempting to market camouflaged drivel like a lot of consumer junk today.

      BTW, ignore the astroturfer propaganda here about "the price being reasonable". No price is universally "reasonable" or "unreasonable".

      ---

      I own it therefore I get to decide what happens to it is a meaningless tautology. Ownership by definition is the right to control. The more interesting question is who owns it?

    147. Re:Its justified price by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      I bought a Yoshi's gameboy cartridge one time for $20 (1993-ish). I took it back to the store I bought it from the same day. I had completed the whole dang thing in a few hours. I didn't think that was worth $20.

      Strangely, I'm still looking at the $15-$30 price point as my sweet spot. I had to control my wrenching when my wife picked up The Beatles Rock Band for full price. (Great game, but $60?!) All of the PC games I own have never been more than $30 for a single title. I picked up the entire Valve catalog for ~$90, but that included over 10 games. I also picked up a decent combopack of Popcap games through Steam for around the same price. Repeating this theme, I also got TF2, Portal and Half-Life 2: Episode 2 as a pack for a decent price. Valve Software is just one example, but I could name the Blizzard packs that I pick up.

      Also, only rarely, will I pick up a first release game. I was a year behind on Oblivion... this was partially due to my inadequate rig at the time, but still. I got it at a better price point.

    148. Re:Its justified price by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Possibly for the same reason I pay about 50-60 Euros for games as well, with an exchange rate of 1:0.66 now. Surprisingly, it was the same when exchange rates were more like 1:1.6.

      That simple fact tells me that game prices are set arbitrarily. They cost 50 Euros, they cost 60 Dollars. And there's nothing exchange rates, reality or whatever may come could do about this.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    149. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I wish one of their requirements was making the text readable without eyestrain even at SD resolutions.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    150. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      What I buy is not a great score, great FMVs, great graphics, etc, what I buy is entertainment. There may be a lot of technical content in a game but if all that effort produces just a 4 hour experience that's the same as every other game (including the ones for 10$ in the bargain bin) that's not a lot of value for me. If it produces an 80 hour game that bores me to death within 4 that's not a great value either. On the other hand a cheaply made game that lasts 3 hours per playthrough and costs only a tenner or so while providing great fun and surprises in that time, well, that's way more value than any epic cinematics can produce.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    151. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      But we're reaching the limits of those dev costs, while the cost increases exponentially the value for the customer just approaches the optimum asymptotically. Many of these investments produce results that do nothing to increase the value to the customer and thus could have been cut, producing a cheaper game that still has the same appeal to the customer.

      Besides, the retail price has nothing to do with fixed costs like dev costs anyway, it's just to maximize profits and with its stagnating customer base HD gaming needs to increase prices to see growth.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    152. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Being a bit smarter about what to make, how much to allocate to it and how to maintain your brand image (i.e. don't release overhyped garbage with your name attached, people remember that) can greatly reduce the number and impact of the money losers. Companies like EA seem to produce a lot of loser games while e.g. Nintendo hardly incurs losses from any game. With enough skill you can predict what's going to sell and what's not so you can cut the unprofitable projects before they're done. Inept managers instead cut stuff that doesn't fit some simple pattern and end up with a lot of stinkers (new ideas are not always risky, it's riskier to take a massive incumbent head-on than to try something new because fighting a massive incumbent requires massive investments and failure means massive losses but not every new idea is worth anything either).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    153. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. Games have significantly higher retail prices than movies despite not being made on larger budgets. What does drive the price of games up is their limited appeal, many more people buy DVDs than videogames.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    154. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I still haven't seen a game that's worth 70€ though.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    155. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the best games I ever got was Space Channel 5, parts 1 and 2 which for some reason Sega released at only $10 per game.

      And now see how much that goes for on ebay. Games that were only produced in a very limited quantity make waiting for price drops a dangerous game.

    156. Re:Its justified price by westlake · · Score: 1
      Back when Atari ruled as the #1 console (1977-84) the games cost just $30 brand-new

      That $30 Atari game from 1977 would cost $108 in 2009 dollars.
      The $80 NES game from 1985, $120. Inflation Calculator: The Changing Value of a Dollar

    157. Re:Its justified price by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      I paid $10 extra for my copy of Resistance 2 to get the collector's edition with the booklet of original artwork as well as a second "making of" and online strategy videos. It also came with an action figure but I didn't really care about that.

      In those cases, for a game I spend 50 hours or more on, I can see the price being justified, to me.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    158. Re:Its justified price by xkcdFan1011011101111 · · Score: 1

      What does Madden and Tiger Woods have to do with frat boys? All my fraternity brothers played Halo, Goldeneye, FFVII, etc. Fuck you and your bias...

    159. Re:Its justified price by Slavik81 · · Score: 1

      Oh the other hand, community-created content is a huge part of Little Big Planet. At launch, there wouldn't have been nearly as much great user-content out there as there is now.

    160. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, if somebody wants to spell it with one 'r' that's their, well, you know.

    161. Re:Its justified price by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      "many more people buy DVDs than videogames" Really? This slashdot article back in 2004 says the game industry is bigger than hollywood, and this year it's arguable that the game industry is bigger than the movie industry worldwide:

      http://www.google.com/search?q=gaming+industry+vs+movie+industry

    162. Re:Its justified price by dillcol1 · · Score: 1

      I feel that no matter who comes out with a game it will always be $60 until companies start making the normal starting price cheaper...

      would be fantastic if games came out cheaper when they first come out but the reality is that companies need to make their money so they sell games for $60 until the demand for the item is too low in which case they will lower the price. At that point it opens the door top many more people who would be willing to buy the same game for $10 cheaper.

      On the other hand though there are a lot of people who will know about the game when it first comes out and then forget about it by the time the price drops.

      It is really a question of are you willing to sacrifice the extra $10 to get the game as soon as it comes out or save $10 after a few months or by buying used copies.

    163. Re:Its justified price by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      In revenue maybe, not in customer numbers. I'd also like a comparison of the average revenue per product because it looks to me like vastly more videogames hit stores than movies.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    164. Re:Its justified price by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      At $50, 10k is only 200 copies. $100k is only 2,000 copies. I've never released a piece of software that didn't sell 2k units and my software sucks.

      Its not a justified price in the least. At $50/unit, HalfLife 2 would need ~800k copies to break even ...

      Obviously they did FAR better than break even on that alone. Then couple in all the other games that will use that same code base and some of the same assets developed for it.

      If you think $60 is fair for a game like HL2 then you've been warped into getting ripped off and liking it.

      All you are doing is padding the pockets of presidents, officers and VPs of companies like Valve and EA.

      Do yourself, and everyone else a favor next time, do the math on your numbers then come back and tell us about how its justified that they have made several times their cost back in the first few months of hitting the shelves. A game with the press and notoriety behind it like HL2 can pay for its entire development cycle in pre-orders.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    165. Re:Its justified price by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't brag about getting ripped off on Steam, it doesn't make you special, just ignorant. Not only are you paying far too much for to exchange some electrons with them, you're also locked into not being able to recoup any of your cost on the game since you can't move it to another account. Way to go, might as well go lease a car while your at it.

      You pay more in Australia because they keep raising prices and Australians keep playing it. They stop raising prices when the number of people that no longer will buy it after a price increase means they make less money total. Once you learn to stop buying things for rip off prices, you'll stop getting ripped off.

      Don't buy based on 'what value you get out of it', you'll lose because they'll convince you its valuable to you. Buy based on paying a fair price for the effort put into what you are buying. Everyone will still get their fair share, and you won't be padding the pockets of some exec in an office somewhere that doesn't actually contribute anything to society.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    166. Re:Its justified price by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      www.gamefly.com

      $8.95 and you can keep it for as long as you want. No reason to go to some silly place like blockbuster.

      I am of course assuming you are in America and can deal with waiting a couple days for the game to ship to you.

      I used the two game play for a long time, have on game playing, and one game in transit.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    167. Re:Its justified price by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      So your suggestion is, rather than spending $5 to own a game after a couple of months, I should spend $5 the moment a game is released to "see if I like it" (because knowing whether I like something the moment it comes out, whether or not I am able to act on that knowledge, is somehow important, AND one should expect to pay money for the privilege of such knowledge?) Then spend an additional $10-$30 for no reason?

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    168. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot and you should feel bad about yourself.

      You have the definition of "astroturfer" right there. You linked to it. Presumably you know what it means. Someone who disagrees with you is automatically someone who has been PAID to disagree with you? What the fuck kind of sick delusion of a world do you live in?? When I delude myself, it at least involves attractive women wanting me to touch their breasts, not some stupid conspiracy about people I don't agree with being somehow under the employ of an agency dedicated to thwart my opinions.

      Sometimes people disagree with you. You, more than anybody, should know that by now. Don't manufacture a shadowy corporation and their legion of slashdot posters as an excuse. You just don't have very good opinions. If you had opinions which were more in-line with the realities of the situation, people would agree with you more often. Try eating a fucking pizza with god damned meat on it for a change, you hippy. It's delicious. Yeah I know that one is nice too, but that's not the point. You order that one every time, and variety is the spice of life. I'm just saying that if you weren't constantly stuck in this monotone rut of a life, you might be more open to new ideas, and in general you'd be less of an asshole.

      But as it stands, you are a bad person and you smell like beets.

    169. Re:Its justified price by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      I'm near Charleston, SC. The theater I usually go to is an older one in a small town outside the main city. The theater is smaller and older (which is why they can't charge the same premiums that newer theaters do), but it's still a nice experience and it's not usually too crowded. Prices are $2.50 before 6pm and $4.50 after that. They operate on a normal released schedule (as compared to some theaters that are even cheaper that get the movies a few months behind the mainstream theaters. there was one nearby that until about 3 years ago sold tickets for $1 day time and $2 night for movies that had already been out 2 months or so).

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    170. Re:Its justified price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy, this is an excellent use of mod points. If ever there was someone who needed put in their place, it was this guy. Can we someone mod him down more please? He's a real offtopic asshole.

    171. Re:Its justified price by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      I used my blockbuster pass, runs about $20USD a month for unlimited DVDs and 2 in store games. I know there is a game pass but I don't know what that costs.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    172. Re:Its justified price by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      I just realized you said 1.50 a day...holy crap. Looks like it is about $1 a day here for a week, but there is the no late fees deal now so it is more like 14 days so .50 a day.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    173. Re:Its justified price by Alarash · · Score: 1

      The real question is not why games cost $60, it's why they cost the same price digitally than retail. I wonder what their rationale is for that, and that sure ain't the bandwidth price.

    174. Re:Its justified price by Zxern · · Score: 1

      He must have played it at least 3 hours a day ever day since it was released to get that many hours.

    175. Re:Its justified price by mivanc · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. LBP is great for guys and their gals!

    176. Re:Its justified price by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      WooosH He was stating that on the same budget, a movie sells for a third of the cost. You reiterated the same cost for making a game, and expect that $60 is reasonable for a game?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    177. Re:Its justified price by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Downloading a free trial doesn't help if the trial is fine, but the full game is buggy. I got caught paying for Medieval Total War - crashes all the time, and I've tried on several different computers. The demo was fine though.

    178. Re:Its justified price by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      $60 games rarely come down to $5 used after a few months. More like $30 or $40.

      You don't know if you like a video game if you have never played it. Buying it used for $30 to $40 and then finding out you don't like it is wasting your money, isn't it? The $5 rental is good enough to figure out if you like the video game or not. You could go through a lot of rentals and weed out the bad video games and only buy the ones you like, or the alternative is to keep buying $30 to $40 used video games without trying them out first and then selling them back for pennies on the dollar as the Game Stores are rigged to buy the games cheap and then sell them for more than that.

      You rent 10 games, costing $50 and then you buy 3 of them for $90, it would be cheaper than buying 10 games for $30 each and then discovering that you only like 3 of them but hate 7 of them. $140 spent my way, $300 spent your way. Which one would you rather do again?

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  2. Price Drops by T-Bucket · · Score: 1

    There is no way that price drops are going to happen... The companies see it as having two options, they could drop the price, or keep it the same and make more profit. Which do you think they're going to choose???

    1. Re:Price Drops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      dropping the price could bring in more buyers.

    2. Re:Price Drops by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Informative

      What TFA didn't mention is that the $60 price point goes all the way back to the NES days.

      I specifically remember My family shelling out (thanks!) the sixty apiece for SMB 2 and later SMB 3 and Megaman 2 when they were new. I think that the less popular or complex games costed less, but there were some real turds like Legacy of the Wizard which also went for the full sixty.

    3. Re:Price Drops by chill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Drop in at your local community college and take a course on statistics. Pay close attention to the "profit maximization" section. It'll explain the math behind the relationship between unit cost, units sold and total profit.

      Fascinating stuff. If nothing else, it'll teach you to never spend more than $2 on lottery tickets, if you spend anything at all.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:Price Drops by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and it's quite interesting thing. You can count the lesser userbase as one of the affecting factors why the games did cost so "much" then, but the entertainment value and playing hours weren't even close to what they are now with the same prices, while development costs have skyrocketed from those days. Considering some games take years to develop with multimillion dollar budgets, $60 isn't really that much now a days, considering how much entertainment some games now a days give and how much hours you can spend with them.

    5. Re:Price Drops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't recall ever paying more than $40 for a new NES game. I do remember paying $80 for Street Fighter 2 when it first came out for the SNES.

    6. Re:Price Drops by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      This has pretty much been proven by Valve through their sales on Steam. They found that if they take, say 20% off the price of a game, it sells in great enough quantity to more than make up for the drop in price.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    7. Re:Price Drops by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Option 1. Drop the price and sell more games (more people buying less expensive games).
      Option 2. Keep the price the same and make less or equal profits (the same or less people buying 60$ games, budgets are getting smaller, videogames are the first luxury items to go IMHO, it's not like your old games stopped working anyway).
      Option 3. Increase the price and make less profits (less people buying more expensive games). ...

      Option 4. Sue Activision Blizzard into oblivion so that people stop playing WoW and paying monthly fees and and start paying and playing other games again.

    8. Re:Price Drops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spending money on lottery tickets is based upon the hope that you'll be an outlier.

    9. Re:Price Drops by phantomlord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I seem to remember paying about $30 for most of my NES games. I never would have been able to afford games on my allowance otherwise. SNES I seem to remember being in the $50-60 range (at least for ActRaiser and Pilot Wings), which is why I bought fewer games for it. Most of my PC games in that era were in the $30-40 range too (in fact, I abandoned the SNES and switched over to PC gaming exclusively sometime around 1995, largely due to price and depth/replayability)

      The Wii suckered me back into console gaming when it came out and that seems to have a mix of $30 and $50 games, depending on the title.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    10. Re:Price Drops by NoYob · · Score: 2, Informative

      That was taught in Micro Economics, actually.

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    11. Re:Price Drops by Burning1 · · Score: 1

      Fascinating stuff. If nothing else, it'll teach you to never spend more than $2 on lottery tickets, if you spend anything at all.

      I'd hope it would teach you not to spend money on lottery tickets at all. :)

      Seriously though, that's no surprise. I used to set retail pricing in a Martial Arts school. My favorite items to sell were the weapons, which we could buy at $5-$10 a pop, and sell for $20-$30.

      Small ticket items with a good markup usually brought in more profit than big-ticket items with a small markup. Even if the per-unit profit was the same, parents were generally as happy to buy 2-3 $20 items as they were a single $50 item.

    12. Re:Price Drops by natehoy · · Score: 1

      The answer is much more complicated than that. There's the concept of price resistance.

      Say the publisher gets $30 for a copy (to keep the economics simple). That means that there is $30 profit and $30 overhead per unit. Call sales 1000 units for simple math, and they make $30,000.

      If the manufacturer decides they want more money, they charge more. If they bump it up to $70 they'll get $40 profit per unit However, at $70, there are fewer people who are willing to buy the game. So they might get $40 per unit, but if they sell 30% fewer units, they make less money in the end. $28,000 to be precise (700 units at $40 profit).

      At $50, they might cut their profits down to $20 a pop, but if they manage to sell twice as many, they make a lot more money. 20,000 units @ $20 profit = $40,000

      With a lot of consumer goods, the price has little to do with the cost. The price is whatever the seller thinks will optimize profits, and there's practically a whole branch of mathematics and voodoo to determine that price point. Voodoo math that is full of experimentation with prices, surveys, feedback, and gobs of good old historical data.

      These numbers also drive another important factor - the cost of development, which has to be taken out of the per-unit profit until it's paid for and actual profit starts coming in, at which point the game developer considers it a success. The price point of the game is often set before the game goes into development, and in some part determines how much money goes into development. So the tail wags the dog, in a way. A well-run company will set a budget based on how many units they think they'll sell, and that will determine the effort that goes into making it.

      Digital distribution changes a lot of things on the surface, but doesn't really change the calculations - only the numbers that go into them. It allows the price point to be set based almost solely on development costs. Those costs are not zero, of course, but it allows per-unit profit to start paying for development almost immediately. And the price point changes depending on people's perception of the advantages of holding a shiny box in their hands (or, for some, how fast they can get the game - a download model can have its own perks for users, which they will pay for).

      I can see manufacturers going for a three-tier model in the near future:

      1. Prerelease download - game is sold as a download the instant the game goes "Gold" and is released to manufacturing. Higher price point, but early gamers will want this (RTM to Retail can take several weeks), so they'll pay. This will be the most expensive version, and the most profitable, but will appeal only to a small subset of customers.

      2. Normal release - game is sold at retail outlet. Today's model, at today's prices.

      3. Download Edition - game is sold as a download, bypassing the printing and manufacturing costs, with a somewhat reduced price. Captures those who don't quite want it at the retail price point, and are willing to sacrifice printed materials and a CD to lower the price. You'll siphon off a few "Normal release" customers at this price, but these sales may actually be more profitable due to the reduced manufacturing cost.

      Basically, #1 replaces the long lines at retail stores and people paying thousands of dollars for a resale version on eBay. The manufacturer would get to capture all that demand for maximum profit.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    13. Re:Price Drops by chill · · Score: 1

      Hmmm...I can believe that. It was in my statistics class, though. Something about bus routes, cost of tickets, ridership gain/loss vs price and the maximization of the area under the curve. I never took Micro Economics.

      Thanks, though.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    14. Re:Price Drops by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      This has already happened. Capcom are leading the trend. Street Fighter 4 came out at 45 euros over here, compared to the usual 60. So did Bionic commando and few other Capcom titles. They sold out in several venues.

      That 15 euros/dollars makes all the difference. Right now, buying a video game is still a gamble. You really don't know how much you will like a game or how long it will last. 60 euros is a lot to risk on a game you may only play for six to eight hours or so (Uncharted, I'm looking at you). Sure, you could find the odd 200+ hour gem, but it depends on your taste. It was LittleBigPlanet for me, but you must remember that some people hated that game, as will happen with every major title. A good 60 euro purchase is worth it. A bad one is a serious burn. A 45 euro purchase can still fry you, but really you're only coming away mostly singed.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    15. Re:Price Drops by natehoy · · Score: 1

      >>>Say the publisher gets $30 for a copy

      Clarification: Say the publisher gets $30 PROFIT for a copy by selling the unit at $60 with a $30 overhead.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    16. Re:Price Drops by quantumplacet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      anyone remember the Virtua Racer for the Genesis? First time we ever got real polygon's on a home console, cost $100 when it was released.

    17. Re:Price Drops by sexconker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      No. No. Horseshit.

      Everyone says this. It's bullshit.

      ANY GAME for the mainstream consoles (fuck your Jaguar, 3D0, whatever bullshit) was $50.

      If you paid more you were an idiot.
      Just read the ads in the Sunday paper.
      Some store invariably advertises the game you want at $50.
      Price match at local store of choice.

      It's no wonder these same people accept the $60 (+$DLC, +$Subscription, +$Collector's Edition) price. They didn't give a shit back then and are all too happy to continue not giving a shit today. But now, they love to chime in and say "I paid $80 for Chrono Trigger!" when they could have had it for $50 at Toys R Us.

      Development costs rise, sure.
      But the video game market as a whole has grown too. A lot.

      $60 is bullshit for 99% of games, yet publishers people wonder why 99% of games don't turn a profit.

      Games need to be priced individually, according to worth. If the average retard thinks your $40 game is shittier than the $60 copy of Madden 2010 because of the price, then fire your marketing team.

    18. Re:Price Drops by chill · · Score: 1

      Are there no video game rental places in Europe?

      I've relegated all my game purchase, what few they are today, to sub-$10 or rental first. A few exceptions are made for games with good, playable demos that I like. No game company is getting $50+ of my money based on advertising and hype alone.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    19. Re:Price Drops by NoYob · · Score: 1

      I wish I took the Stat class you had. It sounds like it was more fun and practical. :)

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    20. Re:Price Drops by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      You took the wrong lesson on lottery tickets.

      You should never spend anything on lottery tickets.

      The initial payout is too little when you plug it into the reward/risk equation. But it grows over time. Rational players would avoid betting anything at all until the risk/reward is over unity, then it's rational to buy all of the tickets.

      Except it isn't, because the "pot" get split in the event of collisions. Taking pot-split into account makes the math much more complicated, since your chance of getting over unity payout ratio depends upon how many other people are betting.

      and all of that is irrelevant. Because even if you win, most lotteries are run by or at the pleasure of state governments who, of course, take a large share of the skim. No matter who wins, everyone loses by virtue of the state having more money to screw you with.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    21. Re:Price Drops by shentino · · Score: 1

      Price changes usually have their biggest impact when you don't have competition.

    22. Re:Price Drops by chill · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. But it was a statistics class and not a class in ethics, government or economics. :-)

      Thus, the main lesson was on odds and how bad you're on the receiving end of them. The take away was "only suckers play, but if you must be a sucker, buy $2 worth because it is the biggest odds decrease you get. Beyond that is diminishing returns on the odds, cutting them by half."

      We actually had homework on getting purchase numbers based on payout, then showing why it was a poor idea to "buy every combination" on a big jackpot play. We also found out in the Florida lotto there were something like 2,000 people who played the numbers 7-14-21-28-35-42 (lucky sevens) every week. Think of the poor sap who plays those and thinks he wins the $100,000,000 jackpot only to find out his share is $50,000 as an 30-year annuity, before taxes, after dividing it up with everyone else. Talk about a let down!

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    23. Re:Price Drops by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      I have purchased new games in the past, and the most I've ever paid was $40. I have purchased new games recently, and the most I've ever paid was $40. In the past, I purchased more games, mostly new and mostly in the $20-$30 range. If there were a few extreme examples in the past, that's irrelevant. I can go to the store now and find four $60 at the front. If I went to the store five years ago, I'd need to look to find anythi"You know, you may say that ng over $40.

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    24. Re:Price Drops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Option 1. Drop the price and sell more games (more people buying less expensive games).

      This only yields more profit if the number of additional sales is sufficient to cover the "losses" of the lower price.

    25. Re:Price Drops by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Colorado's state lottery profits go to support the parks system. I'll drop a fiver every couple weeks on a couple losing tickets knowing that the profits are at least going to a good cause, and that I have a one in ten quadrillion chance of winning something for my effort.

    26. Re:Price Drops by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      It also depends on the game, how many they expect to sell to begin with, and the starting price point of the game. It's not just a cut -and-dry, 20% as a magic number, type of deal.

    27. Re:Price Drops by Langfat · · Score: 1

      Are you American? Because Americans aren't the only ones who use dollars for their currency. It's very possible the grandparent is Canadian or Australian. As a Canadian myself, I remember most new games being around the $60 price-point, even in the NES days...

    28. Re:Price Drops by debrisslider · · Score: 1

      I bought Final Fantasy 3 and Chrono Trigger at Toys R Us. $69.95 and $79.95, and never lower, trust me. I was a 12 year old kid and those extra 30-40 bucks I paid stung like hell. They were that expensive because they used a 24 and 32 megabit cartridge, respectively, back when most games were 8 to 16 Mb, very few even reached 24, and those were big sellers like Super SF2 and Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3. Since they were cartridges the doubling in size was the primary factor in driving the costs up, along with the fact that the games were not produced in massive quantities (the American versions sold about one-tenth as well as the Japanese did, we're talking around 100-200,000 in America), resulting in (a) an inability to lower the cost to make it up in volume, and (b) a scarcity that didn't allow supply to outstrip demand even months later, as indicated by the fact that used copies were still $20 more than most other games' used copies, which I also remember, having unfortunately sold both of my copies before they became collector's items.

    29. Re:Price Drops by scott2181 · · Score: 1

      Star Fox came out over a year prior on the SNES, if you lived outside Europe. Fantastic reinvention and evolution of the rail shooter, complete with flat-shaded polygonal 3D goodness.

    30. Re:Price Drops by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Drop in at your local community college and take a course on statistics. Pay close attention to the "profit maximization" section. It'll explain the math behind the relationship between unit cost, units sold and total profit. Fascinating stuff. If nothing else, it'll teach you to never spend more than $2 on lottery tickets, if you spend anything at all.

      You needed that to figure out that if we pool our money, spend some on overhead and profit for the lottery and return the rest as prizes, then the prizes will be less than what we started with? By the way, you can say the same about fire insurance on your home - the insurance company is collecting a nice profit on your risk adversity. In both cases, you have to introduce a utility function to get sensible results. Your house burning down leaving you with nothing is much worse than paying a little each year - not in terms of expected outcome (cost of x*probability of x) but the mere possibility of you being in economical ruins.

      In the same way, you're buying hope when you buy a lottery ticket, so you could be worth x+2$ this week and the next, big whoop. But if you buy a lottery ticket, there's a small chance of winning. So you stick it out this week because next week you might be a millionaire. Didn't happen? Well there's no reason to give up, you put down another 2$ and hope another week, and another, and another. Sure if you put those 2$ each week in a fund with compund interest and blah blah blah you might be a little richer in 20 years. It's not what people want, they want the possibility for radical and sudden change for the better. Some reason to see if the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is right around the next bend.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    31. Re:Price Drops by shirotakaaki · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I also remember getting a check for $5 from a class action lawsuit brought against Nintendo for price fixing (third paragraph).

      That story took some real digging btw. For a minute I thought I had dreamed it up.

    32. Re:Price Drops by Phil06 · · Score: 0

      The price has nothing to do with the cost, it is entirely based on what people will pay. Lottery tickets have a return of about 50 cents on the dollar whether you buy $1 or $2 or $100

      --
      "...and yet, I blame society" Duke - Repo Man
    33. Re:Price Drops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, nobody buys lottery tickets if they have taken any math that included probability, expecting to win. But as RAH said, "Of course the game is rigged, but you can't win if you don't play" (paraphrasing). In the grand scheme of my life, buying a dollar lottery ticket every time the jackpot exceeds $100 million USD is not a "bad" investment. If I never hit any numbers, I might be out of $3000.00 over the course of my entire life. If I get lucky and hit any prizes over $3000.00, I have broke even at least, and if I win the big one, I have really gotten a hell of a payoff. The point is do the basic math, figuring the ROI, on an investment that only occurs a few times a year, of $1.00. It is a laughable ROI.

    34. Re:Price Drops by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      SMB2 did NOT launch for 60 bucks, you are mistaken.

  3. Which is why by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I stopped going to Retailers for PC games, and started using a downloadable system (Steam).

    And when I want a 360 game - I'll either Rent it, or one of us in our group of 5 friends will buy it and we'll rotate our games around, or on the odd Chance that it has great addictive multiplayer (Halo 3, Call of Duty, etc) We'll all buy it ourselves. But with episodic content (Like ODST) its cheap enough that we all can grab it, IF we really want it.

    1. Re:Which is why by Saint+Stephen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I like Steam because I feel too ridiculous buying a game in a Best Buy in my late 30s :-) Really, Steam is like a brown paper wrapper for Half-Life and Crysis :-)

    2. Re:Which is why by mcsqueak · · Score: 1

      It could be "for the kids"! but I understand. I'm in my lake 20's a feel weird now going into a gaming store, but I only do so once or twice a year for the really hot Wii titles, like Metroid or Super Mario Galaxy.

    3. Re:Which is why by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Most of the Wii games I buy cost like $50. Not $60. Or I get used ones for $15.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:Which is why by Sparton · · Score: 1

      Eh, you gotta be careful with Steam. Sometimes, the prices are equivalent or actually higher than what you'd find in Gamestop/etc.

      For example, two of my friends have gotten Team Fortress 2 for $10 at Electronic Boutique (a Gamestop owned store in Canada), but the Steam price was $20 at the time. And that game is made by Valve!

      That said, Steam still has lot's of sales and deals they do, but it's still not always the best choice for the frugal customer.

    5. Re:Which is why by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      I'm in my early 30s and have Avoidant Personality Disorder with an increasing amount of agoraphobia. Oddly, gaming stores are one of the few places I never feel weird going to. Maybe it's because they generally deal with enough misfits, that I feel like I'm normal in comparison there. In fact, I buy the vast majority of my games in person.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    6. Re:Which is why by Jeoh · · Score: 0

      Steam is pretty good, besides completely disregarding currency exchange rates. Trying to circumvent those will get you banned as well.

    7. Re:Which is why by gencha · · Score: 1

      There is this always Amazon.

    8. Re:Which is why by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      You might not feel so weird if you weren't buying Wii games, you know. ^_^

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    9. Re:Which is why by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Funny

      I like Steam because I feel too ridiculous buying a game in a Best Buy in my late 30s :-) Really, Steam is like a brown paper wrapper for Half-Life and Crysis :-)

      Damn, dude, I'm 57 but I'll get off your lawn anyway.

    10. Re:Which is why by geekoid · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't have gamer shame!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:Which is why by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'd even paid more if I didn't have to walk to a store to buy the game (and deal with people :). It's a lot more convenient to buy it from steam and start playing it soon, and removes the hassle with dvd's etc.

    12. Re:Which is why by sopssa · · Score: 1

      That's not Steam or Valve's fault however. Publishers wanted different prices between regions.

    13. Re:Which is why by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      All my games are "delivered" via Steam. I have ONE optical drive, it is to install operating systems on my systems, and does not stay in the case for long. Steam works better for Valve games and independent games; I bought SF4 (street fighter 4) with the hopes that it would sync up with my steam buddies list so I could "fight" them or challenge them right from the chat box. It will install through steam, but it (sadly) still uses windows live or whatever M$ calls it as a crutch. So I have the game, and online play, but it's not integrated in the same way that say, TF2 or L4D is. Once you have the ability to join someone's server, or invite them to your server, right from the chat box/in game overlay, it's hard to use something as kludgy as windows live.
       
      But I mostly play TF2, CSS and DoD:S. And steam works brilliantly for that.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    14. Re:Which is why by Carra · · Score: 1

      Every single, new game that's released on steam is a lot more expensive then I can find them at a retail shop (play.com). If you save $10 on shipping costs you can damn well make your downloadable game price match a retail version.

    15. Re:Which is why by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Steam is not magical, they're like any store. They have on average better prices than Brick and Mortar places, but if your local game store has a sale on some particular game or they're just trying to clear out their backstock then it wouldn't be hard for them to beat Steam.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    16. Re:Which is why by pegasustonans · · Score: 1

      But with episodic content (Like ODST) its cheap enough that we all can grab it, IF we really want it.

      I don't understand what you mean here. ODST is $60 at retail, which is, as mentioned previously, the cost of a full game. As you say, it's episodic, and this is why it's controversial to sell at the price of a full game.

      --
      And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
    17. Re:Which is why by The+Moof · · Score: 1

      If you're in your late 30's and feel self conscious about buying games, claim they're for your kid/nephew/niece/whatever. You could also just use Amazon.

      My biggest concern with Steam is I don't get a physical disk for when I want to play the game years down the road. Once in a while, I still like pulling out the old Duke3D or Doom disk from 13+ years ago, installing it, and giving it a whirl. With Steam (and XBLA, and any other digital distribution), that option depends on if they feel like supporting it or not. And that's only if they're still around.

    18. Re:Which is why by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I go in wearing my office button-up shirt and slacks once a month or so when I want to pick through the used games, or reserve some new AAA title (new Ratchet and Clank coming out in October... whee!)

      Life's too short to worry about what people think about you. Especially kids. Lead by example ;)

    19. Re:Which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about the purchase price of games though, not Steam's inflated rental price.

    20. Re:Which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I stopped buying games, music, movies, etc and just started using the internet. Some real nice people from reloaded give me most my games.

      Seriously though very few games a year are worth buying or playing. Last PC game I bought was Rise of Nations, last console game I bought was Grand Thief Auto IV.

    21. Re:Which is why by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I refuse to buy via Steam. Unless a distributor gives me the right to keep it in perpetuity or sell it, I'm not willing to be locked in. Worse is the ability of Valve to deactivate entire accounts because they feel like it without paying the customer back for basically stealing their money.

    22. Re:Which is why by tyrus568 · · Score: 1

      I'm also in my early 30s and wouldn't have replied if you hadn't brought up social disorders (it's 7am here and I've been up all night again dealing with a problem related to this).

      I also have Avoidant Personality Disorder (along with the usual tag-alongs: generalized anxiety disorder, substance abuse disorder, generalized depression, drug dependence) and have known (as I bet you did also) since I was young (~13 years old).

      I'm only affected in certain situations; I'm fine in a gaming store, or any store, or the mall, or baseball games or something. I mean, mostly fine. I mainly have problems now like if any friends come to visit, relatives visit, if I have to use the phone for ANYTHING, if I have an appointment (dentist, etc), going on any sort of trip away, and of course I don't have a job partly because of it. It makes things very stressful; anytime I'm with anyone I'm constantly monitoring them and myself and making sure everything is "perfect" or, rather, I feel like the slightest thing will humiliate me, you know.

      Just curious if you are similar. If a well-known friend (known for 17 years) comes over, I really need to self-medicate with something (joint, opiates, something) or it's fucking hard, and it shouldn't be hard at all, it should be really easy and friendly.

      Alcohol hasn't helped me much; long-term use of opiates has only left me with dependency and PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome) and every day is sheer agony. every hour, really, but that's just picking nits.

      I'm basically a social outcast who doesn't do anything that can't be done at home. Things have been really difficult for me this year.

      Maybe you might reply?

    23. Re:Which is why by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      I didn't know exactly what I had until a couple years ago, but I've been aware of the feelings since my early teens as well. I can trace the roots back to even before I started school.

      I quit my restaurant management (small locally owned restaurant, not a chain) job a couple years ago, though not because of AvPD. I put up with a ton of abuse from the owners there for about 10 years and didn't quit BECAUSE of my AVpD. As bad as the abuse was, it was a known quantity. Since then, my avoidance has increased dramatically. Whereas it was only dominant in social situations, especially if I was around someone I was attracted to, it has now invaded every facet of my life. After being rejected a few times (because I take care of a disabled parent), I can't bring myself to even apply for jobs anymore. I'm having a hard time going to the store during hours that normal people go, so I'll go in the middle of the night to avoid the pressures (monitoring, anxiety, etc) that come from being around other people. Much like you, I have issues with the phone - I switched from Dish to Cable a few years ago and it took me more than a month to call and cancel Dish because I didn't want to deal with their retention tactics.

      I'm fine as long as I remain in my comfort zone - hanging out with people I know, going to the same restaurants and stores I always go to, etc. As soon as something or someone knew is introduced into the equation, I begin to shut down, though it does help if I'm experiencing it with a close friend (say, going to a new restaurant with my best friend).

      I have a number of family members with other issues whom self-medicate with alcohol and narcotics. All that has done, is turn them into alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. It lets them hide from their problems, but at the expense of never resolving the problems and compounding new ones. As such, I don't do either (4 years since my last drink and I've never touched a non-prescribed narcotic). I know that I'll get addicted to whichever I'd self-medicate with and an addiction isn't the answer. Losing myself in EverQuest for a couple years destroyed enough of my life (I was our guild and raid leader and nothing makes you feel better than everyone looking to you as their personal hero).

      Some healthier recommendations that might help you cope with your AvPD:
      1) Check out Painfully Shy by Drs Barbara and Gregory Markway (ISBN: 0-312-31623-2). Barbara has an anxiety disorder herself and has a number of ideas on how to help yourself try to adjust to society. This will probably be the easiest thing for you to do, since it requires no input from outside yourself.
      2) Join an AvPD mailing list. Talking with others about your condition will help you understand it better, can take the edge off since you'll realize a lot of other people feel the same way you do, etc. Even if you don't write to others (I don't), just reading what others are going through themselves makes you feel like less of an outcast and more like a normal person. I belong to the Avoidant Sanctuary mailing list under an alias
      3) See a shrink that specializes in anxiety. Most regular shinks have never even heard of AvPD, so their ability to understand and treat it is diminished. The doctor may prescribe some anti-anxiety meds to help take the edge off, will prescribe a plan to help condition you to not be afraid of others (we're much harder to "fix" than your static phobic types since ours is a more dynamic phobia) and can get you into a support group which can help you diminish your fear of rejection and trust issues. This is the hardest one for avoidants to do and I've never done it myself.

      If you'd like to chat more off Slashdot, the email address attached to my account is valid.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    24. Re:Which is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      check your spam folder if you haven't, I sent you an email reply

  4. ...only in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Try shopping for games in Europe. I can't speak for the other european countries, but at least here in Germany prices get converted from $US to â 1:1. We pay around 59â for most game titles, which is over $US80. It's the same for music, movies, and consumer electronics, by the way. Sucks to pay off your ass. :P

    1. Re:...only in America by omnichad · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's to cover the costs of editing out textures and censoring.

    2. Re:...only in America by Sparton · · Score: 1

      I wish I had funny mod points for you.

      Sad thing is that even after the self-censoring, developers still sometimes get hit, and have to choose between stopping sales or spending more to fix the fix.

    3. Re:...only in America by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I forgot the article link.

    4. Re:...only in America by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Of course, we don't have VAT tax in the US, either.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    5. Re:...only in America by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Only in Germany however (and probably in UK soon). The another thing that brings the price up is localization to different languages for countries that still cant understand English. And since publishers usually package couple of countries at time, the countries that dont even get localization pay for them who do.

    6. Re:...only in America by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      So you're saying the Europeans are even more divorced between their money and the value they get from it? No wonder half of Europe is on the dole.

    7. Re:...only in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      59 euro is kinda cheap. Here in Belgium Uncharted 2 for example will cost 80 euro, thats 120 dollars.

      The taxes argument is also bogus. Taxes here are 21%, not 100%.

    8. Re:...only in America by zoney_ie · · Score: 1

      Not entirely true - as you can order online for cheaper, particularly from the UK (even before this year, the exchange rate made it quite favorable - but now if you are in the Eurozone you can buy from the UK for silly cheap prices).

      For cheaper games (not the focus of the article I know) you can get them even cheaper as you can buy from outside the EU (Jersey) and pay no VAT or import duty as long as the price is below something like 20 - which means that with the £/ exchange rate, a game at the equivalent of 20 from Jersey online retailer might still be 45 in the shops!

      I don't know how popular it is in continental Europe, but UK and Ireland people are more and more buying DVDs, CDs, Games and even all kinds of other cheaper items from these online retailers, who mostly have no shipping charges either.

      --
      -- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
    9. Re:...only in America by Ifandbut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Minor correction, The Witcher had to be retextured to remove all of the nudity before it was released in the USA. Thankfully the developers finally released their official uncensor patch.

      USA has proublems with nudity and sex. EU has proublems with violence. Germany has proublems with Nazis.

      It is a shame that in this day and age a creator must be forced to change his work in order for it to be publicly viewed. Hell, even da Vinci's Vitruvian Man had to be censored in the Assassin's Creed 2 trailer.

    10. Re:...only in America by omnichad · · Score: 1

      The US doesn't censor nudity and sex, it's just that the ESRB labels it as Mature. Not the same thing.

    11. Re:...only in America by chicane · · Score: 1

      It doesnt need to if the ratings model is similar to films.
      Demographics dictate that the product is cut to meet a wider available certificate rather than exclude potential sales

      BD E1 D1 , BD E1 AC - My Fave opcodes, What are yours?

    12. Re:...only in America by Caetel · · Score: 1

      New console releases in the UK are typically £40, which after taking into account VAT end up being less than $60 at the current exchange rate.

    13. Re:...only in America by Ifandbut · · Score: 1

      No, it is the ESRB that rates it AO and then it does not get sold in stores.

  5. Thread with free & open games by Haxamanish · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is more fun to create a game than to play them, and a lot more fun than wincing about how much the commercial games cost...

    Some place to start: Python games community

    1. Re:Thread with free & open games by sopssa · · Score: 1

      While I agree myself that it's fun to create games and play around with them (man did I have some great ideas and projects at teenage years!), but it's not at all for everyone. I like sandbox type games and I like messing around in games to see how the environment and AI responds to it. But my programming oriented mind probably affects a lot into that too.

      However, most people just want to play a game.

    2. Re:Thread with free & open games by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      See, that's what a friend of mine did, he used one of the online free game systems and put up a Steampunk game (it's on FB) - and then people like me have been creating episodes and items for it.

      My faves are my rocket skateboards and old style WW I bikes repurposed, but my son did this cool laser attack goggle device that kicks my ass every time.

      Price: free.

      Developers/artists/creators: free (I did it for fun and so did Ian).

      Distro cost: free.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Thread with free & open games by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      If you made movies, would you stop watching movies that weren't your own?

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    4. Re:Thread with free & open games by Haxamanish · · Score: 1

      While I agree myself that it's fun to create games and play around with them (man did I have some great ideas and projects at teenage years!), but it's not at all for everyone.

      Well, this is slashdot after all :P

      I like sandbox type games and I like messing around in games to see how the environment and AI responds to it. But my programming oriented mind probably affects a lot into that too.

      I understand that, until recently I was playing Eve Online. I still think it is a great game, but I stopped playing because I wanted to do something more creative. Not paying my subscription has proven to be a good way to force myself to do something else.

    5. Re:Thread with free & open games by Haxamanish · · Score: 1

      Co-incidentally, I do not have a TV and it has been years since I've been to a movie theater - I did create a couple of animation movies in that time tho, but nothing good enough to show off.

      But you do have a point: of course you can both play games and create games.

    6. Re:Thread with free & open games by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Link, or it didn't happen ;)

    7. Re:Thread with free & open games by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      You mean Steampunk Wars ... like I said it's on FB and it's free.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    8. Re:Thread with free & open games by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Yeah. But the link makes it a lot easier to find... there are a bunch of results when you search for Steampunk on Facebook. More than one when you look at the apps.

    9. Re:Thread with free & open games by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      I know, but only one has cool missions that I made (grin).

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    10. Re:Thread with free & open games by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Oh give the man credit-- would *you* want to post a link to facebook on slashdot?

      --
      +1 Disagree
  6. Let's be honest here. by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Games are $60 because enough people are willing to buy games at that price to justify it. Like many other products, if games don't sell at $60, the price drops. If they thought people would be willing to buy games for $50 but not $60, games would be $50.

    1. Re:Let's be honest here. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      And guess what it is not evil or excessive greed. Especially for VIDEO GAMES if you can't afford it then don't buy it, you won't be harmed from not buying such a product. Now if it is a product that people need to function in modern society and the price is too high then there is a problem. But if it isn't let it be priced as high they think the market can bare.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Let's be honest here. by tholomyes · · Score: 1

      Further evidence of this is when some high profile titles don't sell all that well, the price can come down to $50 or less within a month, whereas some games take forever to come down in price because the demand is still there. The original Gears of War is a good example of the latter scenario, where it wasn't sold for less than $55 or $60 until maybe three months before the sequel finally came out.

      --
      When did the future switch from being a promise to a threat? -C. Palahniuk
    3. Re:Let's be honest here. by PRMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, the article has it completely wrong. Beginning with the NES, companies pay very high licensing fees for games ($20 per game). I have friends that used to work at Interplay and they told me that the cost is up to $25-$30 per game sold.

      This is actually surprisingly easy to confirm. To find the console license fee, subtract the PC version price from the console version price.

      For instance, at launch, Lego Star Wars for consoles was $59. For PC, $29. Every other cost is the same in making the different versions. Marketing, packaging, distribution, advertising, etc. So what is different? The console maker's tax.

      That means that console makers are taking 50% of the cost into their pocket, even though they didn't do anything in the development of the game at all.

      This is why they can eat $150 on the price of a console system with a mere 4.5 game average attach rate.

      Personally, I buy PC versions whenever possible. The experience is usually equal to or better than consoles and I save 50%.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:Let's be honest here. by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Any company making money is evil and excessive greed, from evil big oil, to the evil health insurance companies, to the evil greedy bankers, all are evil for making money or at least trying to make money. So it now time to take down these evil video game companies that are teaching the children to be violent and making profits.

      Barack Hussein Obama! He said we must be clear today! Equal work means equal pay! mmm mmm mmm!

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    5. Re:Let's be honest here. by bigmaddog · · Score: 1

      parent: insightful++

      Alas, there never are mod points around when I need them. But yes, surprisingly enough, prices are set by what people are willing to pay,** not by cost of the thing you're selling. The difference between [price x volume] and [fixed + variable costs] merely determines how successful you are as a business. There's no conspiracy, move along.

      ** Prices are also signals to consumers about other things. If the market charges $60 on average at release and you release for $30, people might be inclined to think that your product is not as good, or something like that.

      --

      Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!

    6. Re:Let's be honest here. by c0d3g33k · · Score: 0, Troll

      Like many other products, if games don't sell at $60, the price drops. If they thought people would be willing to buy games for $50 but not $60, games would be $50.

      No. When games don't sell because the price is too high (or because the game is mediocre), the game developers and publishers blame illegal copying rather than adjusting the price. So the message sent to them by the market isn't being heard - they are too busy worrying about why they aren't getting the price they feel entitled to.

      I stopped buying new games when they hit $40. If I buy them at all, I wait until the price drops enough to land the game in the clearance bin, or until a pre-owned copy turns up (don't download them either, to nip that criticism in the bud. I just don't buy and don't play). I would buy a lot more games new at retail if the prices were half of what they are now (and DVDs, and books, and comics). I can't believe I'm in the minority.

    7. Re:Let's be honest here. by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, what the publishers typically do in order to maximize revenue:
      Release day price: $60
      6 months after release: $55
      1 year after release: $45
      2 years after release: $30
      3 years after release: $15
      4 years after release: $5

      That way, they get the early adopters paying $60, and also get the people they just priced out of the market with their 3-4 year old titles. That's because the timing allows market segmentation, which allows them to capture a greater portion of the consumer surplus.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    8. Re:Let's be honest here. by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      They do adjust the price. There's entire sites dedicated to price drops. In essence, the games are priced at 60 dollars because someone is dumb enough to pay it. They might blame piracy, but only to keep their cash cows ignorant of their discounting practices. Game companies have almost every incentive to charge everyone the highest price they'll pay. I say almost, because it's discriminatory to charge Bob Megabucks $60 and Jimmy Cheapskate $30 for the same product, and generally illegal.

      So instead, they use discounting to create a legal price discrimination. Games cost 60 dollars at release, and the people willing to pay $60 complete the transaction, they reduce the price and capture the next bucket of consumers. The cost accounting "oh well, retailers get a cut, and so does " is a sham, a cover for this truth of the industry. Think about it: if retailing took a $12 cut per game, and production cost $10, Platinum Hits games shouldn't exist in the market place at $20. And yet, even though they have the same retail margins, the same marginal costs of manufacture, Gears of War, Mass Effect and Forza 2 are all sitting there at $19.99. I'm glad at least that the "high game budgets cause high prices" canard has been dispensed with. Fixed costs like game programming and design determine whether the project is done at all, not the price point that maximizes revenue.

      The only reason game companies don't adjust the price starting higher is the fear of consumer backlash: if you price a game higher than the norm at launch, you risk fewer sales before discounting starts, and possibly fewer sales a month later when the price drops. Retailer purchasers get antsy about a high price point unless your game is destined to succeed. Additionally, many games today exhibit "network effects"; high sales of Halo 3 cements demand for Halo 3 via network multiplayer. It might be worth skipping a higher MSRP to capture bigger multiplayer audiences.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    9. Re:Let's be honest here. by Carewolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For instance, at launch, Lego Star Wars for consoles was $59. For PC, $29. Every other cost is the same in making the different versions. Marketing, packaging, distribution, advertising, etc. So what is different? The console maker's tax.

      What is different? The competition. PC has more piracy, contrary to the whining of CEO's; piracy forces down prices by providing competion.

    10. Re:Let's be honest here. by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      Call of Duty 4 is another good example. Even when Call of Duty 5 came out, you could still find COD: 4 for the same price brand new. A good game with high demand will take forever to drop in price.

    11. Re:Let's be honest here. by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      There's an article I can't now find that has a dev stating it's £7 on the 360, i.e. ~15% (closer to 50% for XBLA and whatever, but then they're basically taking over the retailer's cut). I assume it is the "anything else" making up a big chunk of the $10 in TFA.

      This makes some sense since you can buy lots of things in stores that obviously cost a lot more to produce (more complex, more materials) for much less than $10, in fact I buy my DVD's from a store that sells about 1/3 of DVD movies for half that or less. It may be reasonable for the article to do this because apparently royalties are charged on manufacture rather than on sale like most industries, and since it's quite hard to confirm what the royalty actually is, I'm guessing console makers must be very protective over it.

      The console manufacturer's licence fee would appear to be a good deal for developers and publishers: they are moving towards consoles in droves.

    12. Re:Let's be honest here. by UnrefinedLayman · · Score: 1

      That means that console makers are taking 50% of the cost into their pocket, even though they didn't do anything in the development of the game at all.

      Yeah, they didn't custom build the hardware, write the API, create the SDK, or write the standard for titles on the system. I definitely agree with you: the console makers had nothing to do with the development of the games.

    13. Re:Let's be honest here. by demonbug · · Score: 1

      Still waiting for CoD5 to drop in price...

    14. Re:Let's be honest here. by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      You missed the point, since people are aware of discounting. It's the price of *new* media that is overpriced and people who might otherwise purchase are staying away in droves. Sell those $60 games at $30, and you might see a lot more purchases taking place during the initial weeks of release when excitement about a new game is high, rather than months or years later when it becomes an impulse buy. I used to be a gaming enthusiast until pricing moved me into the 'casual gamer' category. Maximizing the number of gaming enthusiasts might be a better long term strategy than milking the small pool of hardcore gamers for all you can.

    15. Re:Let's be honest here. by mqduck · · Score: 1

      Exactly. (Nearly) freely-replicable commodities, where the cost is in the initial development but not reproduction, break supply and demand. Supply becomes unlimited. Value becomes fictitious. Development still costs money, but the logic of capitalism starts to become outmoded once universal replicators enter the picture.

      --
      Property is theft.
    16. Re:Let's be honest here. by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      Before the advent of CD based consoles the manufacturing costs for the cartridge based games were more significant. There is significant overhead in producing masked ROMs just on their own. Then you add in the tendency for added costs for features like battery backup and more support chips to supplement an aging console design. All of a sudden you have a cartridge that represents a significant investment just to make and the retail pricing has to allow for that. The switch to CDs allowed for much more profitability by keeping the old pricing model for a product that can be mass produced for pennies. The only benefit here is the possibility of rolling back prices for popular "classic" games that have been out for some pre-existing amount of time. This allows the publishers to rake in more cash by appealing to both the hardcore players as well as the cheapskates.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    17. Re:Let's be honest here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem for the publisher is that, once people discover how to buy used games online, the games reach the 2 years after release price within 6 months to one year after release.

      Let's just look at Star Wars, the Force Unleashed for PS3.

      I forgot what exactly the launch price was, but looks like it was selling used for ~$45 in September 2008, about a year later now and it sells for ~$16 used. Looks like it's actually $25-$30 brand new right now. Hey that means if it did in fact launch at $45, then your price predictions aren't off at all.

      On the flip side, I do like how the games get down to $5. I have come to the conclusion that the PS2-Dreamcast-Xbox-Gamecube generation of consoles offers above acceptable graphics for me. My dad's got a wii and my younger brothers got a PS3. The wii is fun, and the PS3 is great on the HDTV, but I don't have an HDTV at my house, and it seems like most of the "good" wii games are mario games. Anyways, the point is, I got a lot of classics / great games to go through in the older generation system. And nearly all of the games for those systems can be had for $10 used including shipping.

      Also if the next console generation comes out 5 years after this generation, like all the other generations before have done so, that would then mean around November 2011 I would be able to snag all the current gen systems for around $100 each and the games for around $10-$20 each. Though with this gen it seems like the tech is there to make their cycle last a little bit longer than 4 years.

    18. Re:Let's be honest here. by Turiko · · Score: 1

      huh? Over here, it doesn't matter what you buy it for - the biggest price difference i've seen lately is â5, and that was in favour of the consoles rather then pc.

    19. Re:Let's be honest here. by Turiko · · Score: 1

      i only recently bought halo 1 for pc (i ran a pirate version before that) and i had to pay â15. Halo for pc was released in what, 2002? 7 years, still not â5.

    20. Re:Let's be honest here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about:
      8 years after release: $62.71
      http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Starfleet-Command-Expansion-Pc/dp/B00005JD51

      You'll be hard pressed to find a better price on a new copy of a game with such huge replayability and moddability.

  7. Cut Out the Middle Men by lobiusmoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "That leaves $30 to $35 in the hands of the publishers."

    So why can't we just download games for about half the street price?

    --
    "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    1. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by qoncept · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Because no one is going to sell a game to you for $35 when people are obviously buying it for $60.

      Oh, and what a waste of breath that article was. Summed up, "$60 because that's what they charge."

      --
      Whale
    2. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by cowscows · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because people will still pay $60 for them? But mostly because if the retail copies of your game are $60 but you're selling them on your website for $30, your retail partners are going to get pissed off because you're undercutting them so much. Digital distribution is definitely becoming a big thing, but there's still enough money to be made in retail that you don't want best buy refusing to stock your game.

      As retail becomes increasingly less important, I think we'll see an increase in the amount of games that you can download for cheaper than the usual retail price. It'll never drop down to $30-35 for a brand new AAA game, but maybe closer to $45 or so.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    3. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by omnichad · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because the retailers say "Please don't do that or we won't sell your game." And you won't sell as many if it's only available online. So we're stuck with matched pricing.

    4. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Sparton · · Score: 1

      So why can't we just download games for about half the street price?

      Without those middlemen, many of the projects you'd want to buy won't be funded, and wouldn't exist.

      We game developers need money too, you know. Somebody has to take the risk and pay us, and with AAA titles, you're not going to see many self-funded indies.

    5. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "That leaves $30 to $35 in the hands of the publishers."

      So why can't we just download games for about half the street price?

      Supply and Demand.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    6. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Because they still need to pay the distributer (D2D or Steam, for example), marketing costs, and just a smaller amount of distribution cost. Remember that this $30-35 needs to pay the developers as well, so it's not like that cash is all gravy.

      But if you watch Steam's pricing, they frequently have games half-off for a weekend.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    7. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Burning1 · · Score: 1

      Besides that, there's really no benefit in it for the publisher.

      If you bring in $30 gross selling online, or through a retailer, it doesn't matter where you get your sales.

      But consumers are used to paying $59.95 for games. So, why not sell them for $49.95 online? Consumers don't pay manufacturing costs, so they save a little money. The publishers can cut the retailers out of the picture, and make nearly 60% more gross income, which can significantly improve their per unit profit. From the publisher and consumer perspective, it's win/win.

    8. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by alen · · Score: 1

      the publishers have to pay the developers as well

      even with Steam and D2D developers still go through publishers. Reason is that publishers have the employees to sign deals with the companies selling you the games. developers will then have to hire people to sign and manage these deals. and publishers usually lend devs money. unless you have games being sold then you aren't making any revenue while developing the next game. but you still have to pay salaries, bills and pay for licenses of dev software kits.

      i forgot the term but it's taught in finance 101. even companies like best buy have to borrow money to buy inventory. reason is that they never have enough cash on hand to cover all their expenses so they have to borrow short term and the price you pay reflects that. same with devs. even if you have revenue coming in from games being sold, it might not be enough to cover the dev expenses of the next game.

      same concept why bands need LiveNation to go on tour. someone needs to lend them the money to be able to pay the start up costs

    9. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by omnichad · · Score: 1

      But they still want the retailers to carry it. Grandma's not going to buy GTA for her 8-year old grandson online. Wal*Mart, for one, probably demands that the publisher doesn't compete on price.

    10. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Becausethen you would need a developer that thinks this way:

      1. People are willing to buy a game for $60, but 50% of that goes to publishers.
      2. I've got it! Offer it online and cut out 50% of my costs!
      3. I will then pass along that 50% to my customers who are fine with paying twice as much! Won't they be happy! I won't make any more money off of it, either!

      In reality, I doubt most developers... most people... are like that. If people are willing to pay $60, I doubt many people will sell it for $30 just because they don't have to go through a publisher...

      I know some indie and small dev companies do that, but other than that... Steam games didn't go down much in price just because you cut out the retailer/packaging/whatever costs ,did they?

    11. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      The reason companies like best buy have to loan money to buy stock is due to poor business practices and over-extending their credit to the absolute max to continue steady unsustainable growth to appease shareholders and for their own performance bonuses. I.E. a poor, short sighted business plan. The CIO of home depot saw they were doing the same thing, reined in their spending and are now cash flow positive with very little debt. Apple and IBM follow similar strategies and have plenty of cash in the bank to fund purchases.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    12. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      From the console standpoint, fear of piracy means you can't download - the CD is essentially a dongle you need to have in order to make it go.

      They could unlock consoles and sell games for $10 or $20 using a P2P like system, and I bet they'd overall sell more games. More revenue, lower profit margins, more money overall spent to fund future games.

    13. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      The pirates aren't buying the games for $60

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    14. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the publishers are generally the ones who pay for the development of the game?

    15. Re:Cut Out the Middle Men by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      I use steam and got L4D for $29.95 and GRID for $9.95 they are in a computer game shop near here for $59.95 & $89.95 respectively. When I bought FarCry2 I went to a store called Harvey Norman and it was on the shelf for $129.95. i went to the game shop 30 meters away and it was $59.95 (glad I checked the other shop because I swear it's not worth the amount I paid for it).

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  8. New games cost $59.99 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they have always cost $59.99

    1. Re:New games cost $59.99 by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I remember Super Mario Bros. 3 was only $49.99 MSRP.

    2. Re:New games cost $59.99 by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      What is this, the Hygrade Wieners defense?

    3. Re:New games cost $59.99 by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      Were you not here for the previous generation of consoles (Xbox, PS2, Gamecube)? Game were only $50 then, which most PC games have stuck with.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    4. Re:New games cost $59.99 by bornyesterday · · Score: 1

      Thanks to the prodigious efforts by Big Brother and increased production rates, next year the price will drop to $69.99!

    5. Re:New games cost $59.99 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had consoles since the original atari. Not sure what those games cost, since I was about 10 years old. But since buying my own consoles, NES, PS1 and so forth, games have ranged around $50-60 when they first come out. A PS1 or NES game was usually around $50 and but that was anywhere from 10 to 20 years ago. $50 in 1989 dollars is more than $60 in 2009 dollars. Game prices have always been in a similar range.

    6. Re:New games cost $59.99 by religious+freak · · Score: 1

      And that was expensive at the time! IIRC, (and it was a long time ago), the standard before that was $10 or $15 cheaper. Those prices seems to keep up at right about inflation...

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    7. Re:New games cost $59.99 by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2, Insightful

      49.95 in 1990 dollars is $72.95 in 2009 dollars.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    8. Re:New games cost $59.99 by Carewolf · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, new games cost 39.99 unless you are an idiot who bought an artificially limited platform, then you pay 59.99. The extra 20 dollars or euroes is a surchage for you accepting to get screwed.

    9. Re:New games cost $59.99 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember Super Mario Bros. 3 was only $49.99 MSRP.

      Mom bought SMB3 for me the week it came out from Shop-Ko. It was $59.99. I remember being astounded that she actually shelled out $60 for a non-xmas/non-birthday gift.

  9. Huh? by Etrias · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To my mind, emerging technologies, subscriptions and episodic and downloadable content should all enable price drops--increasing accessibility to a much wider audience.

    Oh yeah. Just ask EA how well that's going. How much has their episodic content come down?

    1. Re:Huh? by zerocool^ · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the nickle and dime to death that you get as an owner of, oh, i dunno, Little Big Planet, or Guitar Hero.

      The Rock Band Beatles doesn't come with Help! or Let It Be or Eleanor Rigby - but they'll be released later in downloadable content.

      Don't believe them for a second when they're like "prices are going down" or "prices are not going up". What's happening in the future is that you are paying $60 for the game now, but soon you're going to be paying $60 for "most of the game", and it's going to cost you another $60 to get the whole thing.

      ~X

      --
      sig?
  10. Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by tacokill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why do games cost $60? Because that is what the market will pay.

    Does this even need to be discussed? Are we really that retarded with our understanding of economics? Do we not understand the very simple concept of supply and demand?

    ...sometimes I wonder

  11. We're already there ... by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 4, Informative

    "subscriptions and episodic and downloadable content" already drive the cost (to the consumer) of games to $70-$80. My kid gets an XBOX game for $60. Plays it. Finishes it. Pays $5 -$10 for points to download an add-on pack, or 2 or 3 or more, and next thing you know, he has invested $70 - $80 in the game. I already assume when he buys ODST, it will cost $80 before it's all said and done, and to me, that's the real cost of the game.

    I think they have to keep the initial price at $60 for now because that's the point above which more consumers would say "screw it, I'll get something else". I'm pretty sure downloadable content will soon be (if it isn't already) about the only way game makers profit.

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    1. Re:We're already there ... by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      You should get ODST for him at Toys 'R Us then. You get a free $20 gift card, which you could use to pick up some marketplace points, thus absorbing the cost of additional content.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
  12. This is news? Sounds more like normal inflation by SierraPete94 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Surprisingly enough, game software really isn't that much more expensive today than it was 20 years ago. Seems like I plunked down $40 or so for Zork I way back in the day. So $20 increase in 25 years... 50%--hell, I'd challenge you to find many industries that are even close to that number.

    --
    Starting next week, all passwords will be entered in morse code.
  13. entertainment hours per dollar by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Online multiplayer games are probably the best value in entertainment. Example: The Orange Box was $50, and contained four games. Just one of those games, TF2, has given me over 500 hours of entertainment in the past two years. Compare that $50/500hr expense to a $10 2hr movie, and you can see that almost any price could be "justified" for certain games. $60 is likely selected because it's about as much as many people can drop on an impulse purchase for a purely luxury item.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah and I got a Tetris clone free from Apple's App Store, and I've probably played 500 hours of it. At home, in my office, in meetings, on planes, cabs, trolleys, trains, in a helicopter once, on a boat, sitting under a tree outside....

      I think I got a better value than you did. Apple is right that the gaming market is going to move toward cell phones as a platform, and they are in perfect position to intercept a whole lot of users, once again.

    2. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      This philosophy completely leaves "hardcore" gamers behind. We don't want to play Tetris for 500 hours; we want to capture flags, shoot aliens, and throw fireballs.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    3. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by Nukenbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, but there are also plenty of $60 games that I have played for about 90 minutes, and then never again..

    4. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by cowscows · · Score: 1

      I've been playing free solitaire games on various computers for like 20 years, and I can still kill time today playing it on my iphone. That doesn't mean that I got ripped off because I paid 40 bucks for civilization 2 and only got 100 hours of playtime out of it.

      I guess my my point is, what exactly is your point?

      While there will always be people writing little games as a hobby, I don't think the game industry is going to shift primarily to free mobile phone games. Sure, there's a lot of users there, but it's hard to make money giving away all of your products.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    5. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Compare that $50/500hr expense to a $10 2hr movie, and you can see that almost any price could be "justified" for certain games.

      Compare that to even a minute spent playing freeware games, and you'd never pay for entertainment of any sort again, right?

    6. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by Hatta · · Score: 1

      You have to adjust hours/dollar by a quality factor. An 8 hour beautiful and compelling game is worth more than a 40 hour grind fest.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    7. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by evilWurst · · Score: 1

      Yes, risk vs impulse buy is probably the major issue here.

      The thing is that, additionally, this game purchase decision is not made in isolation, but in context of our total gaming budgets.

      In other words: what are prices X and Y, such that most people would buy one game at X, but would but two at Y, even though 2Y > X? Wouldn't the game industry like to know that! They'd want to price games at the highest Y that works.

      IMO, the main logic was probably that since the 360 and PS3 cost more than the last generation, their owners have a higher game price threshhold too. In other words, they'd buy 2 games at $50 each but they'd still buy both at $60 each, so might as well charge $60; more expensive extra controllers were probably reasoned through in the same way. I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to whether this was correct, but, note the Wii pricing model and the Wii's success...

      It would seem to follow from this that, as the consoles are older now and the console prices are dropping, the game prices will also slip, otherwise the game sales won't keep pace with the console sales. Or in other words, the lower console price will mean a larger market, but the new owners are the ones more sensitive to prices, and now all the $60 games are really competing with the previous year's games that the new owners haven't played and which have been discounted to $40 (or are easily found used)... the new owners might buy two games at $50, but only one at $60.

    8. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      see my previous post, and fuck you

    9. Re:entertainment hours per dollar by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Want my $60? Publish a grand strategy, turn-based hex map game with a great AI.

      War In Russia was great. East Front / EF2 / Panzer General / PG2 were mostly excellent. I really enjoyed Fantasy General and wanted *much* more like that.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  14. All my online games are free by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    And many games for the iPhone are pretty darned cheap.

    At some point, game producers will start cranking out cheap English mods of Bollywood dance games and Chinese puzzle and combat games and take over the US market with games that sell for $10 a pop total.

    Barriers exist to crumble.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:All my online games are free by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      And many games for the iPhone are pretty darned cheap.

      At some point, game producers will start cranking out cheap English mods of Bollywood dance games and Chinese puzzle and combat games and take over the US market with games that sell for $10 a pop total.

      Barriers exist to crumble.

      That won't satisfy the large demand for other games.

      $10 games have failed to kill $50-$60 games for well over a decade.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:All my online games are free by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Failed to kill?

      Um, worldwide, most RPG game players pay a fraction of what we do (China, India, S Korea).

      News flash: the US has very few people compared to them.

      It depends on what your definition of Is Is. Most definitions are based on market capitalization, so 500 million people paying $60 a game will always "beat" 5 billion people paying $2 a game.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:All my online games are free by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Failed to kill?

      Yep. See the $60 games on shelves?

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    4. Re:All my online games are free by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Dude, most people worldwide buy their games at stalls from boxes. In fact, the first game software I ever bought was when I was traveling to Australia and NZ and such places.

      Not everywhere is like us.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    5. Re:All my online games are free by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Dude, most people worldwide buy their games at stalls from boxes. In fact, the first game software I ever bought was when I was traveling to Australia and NZ and such places.

      Not everywhere is like us.

      I never suggested otherwise. There's nothing new going on here, either. The US (and Japan) has plenty of access to super cheap games since the whole thing began, yet demand for the expensive ones is still high. Trust me, you're not looking at New Zealand or Australia and seeing the future of video gaming.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  15. HD assets aren't cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The answer is incredibly simple, actually: Since developers are mainly working on HD games that end up on the PS360, bypassing half the market (the Wii), they've got a smaller pool to fish from. Add that to the fact that the cost of HD games have skyrocketed since the last generation, and can run away in spectacular fashion if not monitored carefully (example: Grand Theft Auto IV cost $100 million, while Halo 3 cost $30 million to develop and $10 million to advertise a year before that). The obvious result of being burned at both ends financially in this scenario is that the audience will have to pay more to make up the difference. Whether such a model is sustainable remains to be seen, though.

  16. artificial price point by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why does the CD soundtrack to a $150 million movie cost $17.50 and the DVD goes for $14? It's because those are the price points they got the public to swallow. VHS movies back in the day used to go for $75 or some ridiculous number and only the video stores bought them -- who would have thought private individuals would want to own movies? But eventually the price points dropped and there you are.

    Back in the day, Sierra games came with order forms for other Sierra games. Those crappy little DOS games were selling for $79.99. The stores typically had the prices lower but not by much. The entire time I was growing up, the price points for AAA titles for the top systems would be anywhere from $40 to $60. Usually $50 was the sweet spot. I recall Street Fighter having some of the most insane markups. I think SFII topped out at $80 for the SNES. Then you could also pay another $100 a piece for the special controllers.

    The two things that strike me now are 1) games were really goddamn expensive back in the day and 2) I'm surprised that they haven't been able to jack that price harder considering inflation and all.

    I agree with the article about how crazy it seems for simpler games selling for the same price as ones you know have to be ridiculously expensive to produce.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:artificial price point by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Why does the CD soundtrack to a $150 million movie cost $17.50 and the DVD goes for $14? It's because those are the price points they got the public to swallow."

      actually, that's becasue of contract negotiations with the performer and/or producer. the music in a DVD is seldom the full track.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:artificial price point by timster · · Score: 1

      Sierra games ... Those crappy little DOS games

      Hey, those "crappy" games were what we had back in 1992, and dammit, we LIKED them!

      In any case, the Sierra direct catalog was always seriously overpriced to avoid competing with the retail channel, as shelf-space was essential for their business back in the days when Internet access was rare. If you couldn't find them cheaper you were shopping at the wrong store. And the $80 Street Fighter had an unusually large ROM, making it expensive to manufacture at the time, so it wasn't all due to markup.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    3. Re:artificial price point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I believe that $75 for video stores was actually including some kind of rental licensing fee, not something consumers would be paying if they bought their own copy.

    4. Re:artificial price point by rm999 · · Score: 1

      "I recall Street Fighter having some of the most insane markups. I think SFII topped out at $80 for the SNES."

      This price point was an anomaly that signified the death of the arcade.

      My friends and I used to play Street Fighter in the arcade all the time - at 50 cents a game (after the first game winner plays for free), we realized it made more sense to just buy the game for the SNES. Capcom realized that the SNES would cut into their lucrative arcade sales, and jacked the price up; it was still worth it for us to buy the game at 70/80 dollars (which I think is like 200,000 dollars in today's money).

      Eventually, arcades starting going out of business, and the prices had to fall back into line with what people would pay. While I think 60 dollars is a bargain for an infinitely repayable game like SFII, I don't get why people pay that much for games that take 10 hours to beat.

    5. Re:artificial price point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was still worth it for us to buy the game at 70/80 dollars (which I think is like 200,000 dollars in today's money).

      I know it was a joke, but I was curious. It's $150 in today's money.

    6. Re:artificial price point by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      The two things that strike me now are 1) games were really goddamn expensive back in the day and 2) I'm surprised that they haven't been able to jack that price harder considering inflation and all.

      They probably don't really need to. Look at the penetration of gaming systems and PCs back in the 1980s and compare it to now. They make up the difference in volume many times over.

    7. Re:artificial price point by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >They probably don't really need to.

      Of course "they need to." But you're looking at it wrong. They *can't* because of a number of reasons, mostly related to competition in the marketplace.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    8. Re:artificial price point by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      >They probably don't really need to.

      Of course "they need to." But you're looking at it wrong. They *can't* because of a number of reasons, mostly related to competition in the marketplace.

      True; poorly phrased on my part. I meant: they're able to make an increased profit on the same price, based strictly on volume.

  17. Serious answer by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Informative

    Like any other retail product, the price is a function of what the market will bear.

    There are some interesting social phenomena that affect the demand curve, that allow (or even *require*) a product to be priced arbitrarily higher than the marginal cost of production and distribution, because in some marketplaces, lower priced goods are regarded, probably unconsciously, by consumers as inferior.

    It is also the case that when pricing a product with respect to a competitor's product, it is advantageous to price the product at the highest price possible while still being perceived as a better value than the target competition. I've seen reproducible studies that show the same product from the same supplier, if priced significantly lower, can be less popular.

    Retail pricing is a bizarre non-linear non-deterministic function. It boils down to: If you aren't willing to pay the retail price of a product, and aren't able or willing to negotiate a lower price from a given supplier, then don't buy it.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    1. Re:Serious answer by Jaqenn · · Score: 1

      I've seen reproducible studies that show the same product from the same supplier, if priced significantly lower, can be less popular.

      I worked at a small-time web hosting company for a while, and we ended up learning that exact lesson. We provided a lot of custom tools to help small business owners set up an online storefront, and found that more people wanted our services at $79/month than $19, $29, $39, etc.

      Its the same thing you probably do when shopping for anything you don't have particular expertise on, say, carpet shampoo: sort by price, assume the bottom third doesn't work well, assume the upper third is overpriced, and pick something from the middle third that has an attractive label.

      --
      You are awash in a sea of fiercely stated opinions. Obvious exits are: 'File->Quit', 'Reply', and 'Page Down'.
    2. Re:Serious answer by geekoid · · Score: 1

      But it's data, so retail sales need to negotiate against there competition.i.e free.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Serious answer by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >We provided a lot of custom tools to help small business owners set up an online storefront, and found that more people wanted our services at $79/month than $19, $29, $39, etc.

      Yes. I'm sorry if you had to learn this by trial and error, but you might not have believed it if a business consultant had told you directly.

      The price point must be the highest price while remaining a better value than your target competition.

      There are a whole lot of tenets in marketing that turn out to be important but so counter-intuitive, especially to us computer geeks, that I no longer have any doubt that marketing salaries are justified. This is just one in a LONG list of jaw-dropping realizations that I have learned over the past few decades that I would NEVER have accepted without seeing the results for myself.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  18. Re:This is news? Sounds more like normal inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you missed the giant elephant in the room there.

    What about computers and videogame consoles? My first PC, 8086 8MHz, 640KB RAM and 80MB hard drive cost me above 3000$CAD. My first console, Intellivision, was nearly 600$CAD if I remember correctly.

    We've seen the price of the hardware go down by more than 50%, not up.

    The fact that games have increased in price makes no sense since there's more gamers than ever before. It's just that companies like to waste their money on movie franchises and other such nonsense that make up a huge part of their so-called development costs.

  19. What about inflation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was thinking about this yesterday: When I started gaming on Nintendo almost 20 years ago the games cost $50. I am surprised the price has _remained_ at where it is currently.

    1. Re:What about inflation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are so many variables going into game profitability.

      On the cost side: games take much more time to produce, salaries keep going up, and general costs involved in manufacturing and delivering the product (worker salaries, fuel, etc.) are all going up. Nowadays, you need development kits for all the consoles too, on top of licensing fees.

      On the savings/profit side: computer games can come out on disc instead of eight floppies. Console games come out on discs instead of cartridges (which must really have cost a bit.) Computer games rarely have printed manuals anymore, and DLC/expansion packs have taken over. Also, many games can be released cross-platform, and the gaming base is huger than it was in the Nintendo days.

      So I guess it wouldn't surprise me that much if somebody said they were still capable of making a killing at $40/50 for games on release given the new market efficiencies. On the other hand, there's so much more competition for attention amongst games now, maybe the advantage in the bigger gaming base isn't so much...

  20. A better way to manage downloaded games? by 2obvious4u · · Score: 2, Informative

    I got turned off to downloading games after I downloaded Castle Crashers for the XBOX 360 and then got the red ring. Now the only person who can play the full version of the game is me. I bought the full game for my kids to play not for me to play, but they are locked out. I've tried unlocking it but nothing works.

    Until the DRM is removed from downloaded games its not practical. Any of the kids can pick a game up off the shelf and play it, but if I'm not logged in my kids can't play the games I've bought for them. I don't want them to mess with my account and I don't want to pay to download the games again. I really don't want to spend hours on the phone with tech support to "reunlock" a game I already bought and paid for.

    1. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      This was the state of affairs last year, unless you called customer service and waited about 3 weeks for someone with the power to make those changes to come back to you. Since, they've released an a license migration process that will make that work:

      http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/

      You can only do it once a year, and it's a bit of a hassle, but it should help you out with Castle Crashers.

    2. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      Why not just let them sign into your profile?

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    3. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by timster · · Score: 1

      You could also pay $50 in a store and get a bad DVD of the game. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and contact support.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    4. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by CaseM · · Score: 1

      So you got a new 360? Use Microsoft's license migration tool, which you can do once yearly to fix the exact problem you're having.

    5. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got turned off to downloading games after I downloaded Castle Crashers for the XBOX 360 and then got the red ring. Now the only person who can play the full version of the game is me. I bought the full game for my kids to play not for me to play, but they are locked out. I've tried unlocking it but nothing works.

      Until the DRM is removed from downloaded games its not practical. Any of the kids can pick a game up off the shelf and play it, but if I'm not logged in my kids can't play the games I've bought for them. I don't want them to mess with my account and I don't want to pay to download the games again. I really don't want to spend hours on the phone with tech support to "reunlock" a game I already bought and paid for.

      Microsoft allows you to transfer those licenses to your new Xbox so everybody can play again without you having to be signed in to Xbox Live. It is a simple automated process that you access from their website.

      http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/default.htm

    6. Re:A better way to manage downloaded games? by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      Because they are 6-8 years old. And they wiped my characters...

  21. There's an easy answer by g051051 · · Score: 1

    They cost $60 because that's what people are willing to pay. Supply and demand at work. However, I personally don't care what new games (and other forms of entertainment) cost. I refuse to pay more than $30, and that's only for items I really want to play. I usually won't even consider buying a game for more than $20. It's just not important to me to play a game on the first day it's out, or even the first year it's out. If the price never comes down into my range, I simply won't ever buy it.

  22. No $70 standard pricepoint? by meerling · · Score: 1

    He obviously isn't listening to what the boss at EA has been saying about pricing...

  23. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    Do you understand the concept of supply? We're talking about data here. You can't apply supply and demand concepts when the supply is practically infinite.

  24. In Game Ads. by jameskojiro · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If every instance of an ad in a game would cut 25 cents from the consumer cost of the game, I would say got for it!

    It would be nice to see if Sargent Johnson drinks Coke or Pepsi and if Gordon Freeman likes McDonalds or Wendy's.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  25. Because they can by winkydink · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's the same underlying reason why male dogs lick their balls.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    1. Re:Because they can by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No thumbs?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Because they can by navygeek · · Score: 1

      Survey says.... "Because they can!!" Hell, if I could, I'd never have to leave the house.

    3. Re:Because they can by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      I thought they were just checking if they were still there.

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    4. Re:Because they can by SoCalChris · · Score: 1
    5. Re:Because they can by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Scabies?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  26. The Left-Digit Effect by Triela · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I think $59.99 may be a cap price for a while.

    The left-digit effect: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090223221526.htm

    Although arbitrary, I'd say it's common for consumers to think of "round" price points like $50 and $100 when it comes to entertainment (games, a night at the movies, dinner out, etc). The left-digit effect would make $59.99 the highest price to still "feel" like it belongs to $50, whereas the left-digit change of $60.00 would remind consumers they're "approaching" what they might consider an off-putting number.

  27. Always been this way by D3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Relative to the 1970's and 80's the prices now are a real bargain. I recall Pac-Man for the Atari 2600 being something like $50 at first.

    --
    Do really dense people warp space more than others?
    1. Re:Always been this way by MaineCoon · · Score: 1

      I remembering buying some SNES carts for $60 to $70 (like Killer Instinct) 15 years ago.

      The article also doesnt cover the fact that Microsoft and Sony have licensing fees and development costs are higher (expensive devkits and software required in addition to regular hardware and software). These are the reasons why PC games are $10 cheaper.

      As the move to downloadable games, you wont see significant drops in prices - hosting and bandwidth costs to deliver the goods still exist, and inflation continues. Additionally, market exposure is significantly less, so sales will be lower on digital-only titles. This means $50 will be the new 'cheap' (from the developers perspective) even for downloadable-only titles.

      --
      Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
    2. Re:Always been this way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It cost a lost more to product a ROM cartridge than a 5 cent DVD. Try comparing to games on the C64 or the ZX Spectrum.

  28. They cost the same back in the 70's and 80's by Kagato · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Back in 1979 Atari was selling games at the $45+ price point. Same thing with Sega and Nintendo in the 80's, $49-59. In the 90's, $49-59. Today? $49-59.

    1. Re:They cost the same back in the 70's and 80's by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Makes sense. You demand has gone up, and many costs have gone down.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  29. Price Inflexibility by EXTomar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What is killing console games is the inflexibility in pricing structures. Although AAA release game is okay at $60, a game like "Darkest of Days" is not. But since they are stuck in the same distribution channels they are forced into this pricing structure that doesn't make sense for the game.

    This is why online stores like Steam have taken off. "Plants vs Zombies" is a hell of a lot of fun and would have died at the fixed $60 price. A developer may notice their game sales are slowing down so they do a price cut weekend which is impossible to do with the classic distribution chain. Even in the citation, half of the cost instead of being consumed in the distribution chain just putting disks on shelves can be put elsewhere. I don't have much illusions the big boys with the big games will pass the savings on to us but having the flexibility is at least a start.

    1. Re:Price Inflexibility by sexconker · · Score: 1

      "A developer may notice their game sales are slowing down so they do a price cut weekend which is impossible to do with the classic distribution chain."

      Because price drops, sales, coupons, and other promotions/incentives don't exist.

    2. Re:Price Inflexibility by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      Although AAA release game is okay at $60, a game like "Darkest of Days" is not.

      That is what makes things like Xbox Live Arcade and Steam great. I've bought a few $10 and $20 games that were worth between $5 and $60 IMHO. Use downloads for "snack" games, and use the $60 discs for "epic" games.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    3. Re:Price Inflexibility by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      This is mostly a Western thing. In, say, Japan, there are flexible pricing structures. The latest blockbuster RPGs cost $80 while the rest of the games cost $50. Mind you, this might seem like a lot of money, but the economy there is different.

    4. Re:Price Inflexibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mind you, this might seem like a lot of money, but the economy there is different.

      Because everyone is given an $80 (equivalent in yen) government stipend every week to buy RPGs and manga? Because RPGs are packaged with food over there to divert money from more vital goods? Because people there are more obsessive with their games that they're willing to forego other things we in our primitive Western cultures would pay money for?

      Can you explain "but the economy there is different" in a way that justifies a 33%-100% markup on games relative to our piddly Western sentiments (assuming around $60 for a AAA title and around $25 for a not-AAA title, and for the sake of simplifying the argument ignoring $5-$10 Steam, XBLA, WiiWare, etc games)? Or at least in some way that doesn't sound like you're handwaving away a significant price increase for some reason?

    5. Re:Price Inflexibility by clodney · · Score: 1

      "A developer may notice their game sales are slowing down so they do a price cut weekend which is impossible to do with the classic distribution chain."

      Because price drops, sales, coupons, and other promotions/incentives don't exist.

      They do indeed exist, and can be done quickly by a retail store. But for a publisher to do a price drop/coupon/promotion, push it out through the distributor and have it go into effect in the stores is something that takes weeks to months.

    6. Re:Price Inflexibility by nobodyman · · Score: 1

      To be honest, the fact that all console games start out at the same is not so much of an issue for me (after all, we don't pay less for bad movies, and good and bad CD's generally open at the same price point). The price will drop over time (especially for unpopular content). I simply think that the initial price point is too high and ends up hurting the industry as a whole.

      Let's see how much "Darkest of Days" costs in two months.

    7. Re:Price Inflexibility by khchung · · Score: 1

      What is killing console games is the inflexibility in pricing structures. Although AAA release game is okay at $60, a game like "Darkest of Days" is not. But since they are stuck in the same distribution channels they are forced into this pricing structure that doesn't make sense for the game.

      Where have you been for the past ~2 years?

      On the PS3, I can buy and play lots of cheap games. For just ~$15 (or $10? I forgot) I bought Battlefield 1943, and I must have enjoyed hundreds of hours of play already.

      --
      Oliver.
    8. Re:Price Inflexibility by JayAEU · · Score: 1

      Indeed, those small games really are lots of fun. Recently, I've even found myself enjoying them more than the "big" games I paid lots of money for.

    9. Re:Price Inflexibility by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Even in the citation, half of the cost instead of being consumed in the distribution chain just putting disks on shelves can be put elsewhere

      Bullshit. Producing the DVD, the case, the cover art, and shipping it to the stores takes pennies on a large scale. In 1996 it cost approximately $1 via Sony to press 1000 copies of a disk and have them mailed to individual addresses. That was at 1k copies, the highest price tier, lowest volume they would deal with. It goes down drastically from there.

      Way to fall into their bullshit.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  30. DVDs by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

    $12 to retailer, $5 to discounts/returns/retail marketing, $10 toward manufacturing costs and shipping. That leaves $30 to $35 in the hands of the publishers

    So why can I buy DVDs from $5 to $20? manufacturing and shipping costs for these two items should be the same. And I've never seen a game at discount, have you? Nor have I ever seen a game as heavily marketed as a DVD.

    1. Re:DVDs by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 1

      The profit for the retailer and the amount going to returns and discounts is a percentage of the price, so for a lower base price item, they'll be commensurately lower. The cost of manufacturing and shipping, as well as the profit for the publisher, is higher per unit because they sell less units. While the best selling Xbox 360 game and best selling movie (Halo 3 and Spiderman) are close in sales volume (8.1 million vs. 12.7 million), by the time you reach even the tenth spot on the list (Marvel: Ultimate Alliance vs. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets), the game is only selling 2.1 million copies, while the movie is at 7.9 million (and I suspect a lot of popular movies sold similar numbers). Keep in mind, little additional work is needed to make the DVD; the costs are often recouped during theatrical release, so the DVD profit is just a bonus. The game needs to make its entire profit on sales to consumers.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    2. Re:DVDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that's an ignorant comment. Why don't you take into account the money made on box office sales and made on the DVD's and Blu-Ray the first few weeks they are released. I can't recall the last time I heard about a game making 200million opening weekend or whatever stupid amount new movies make. The money to cover the movies is all front loaded. By the time you are digging through the bargain bin for movies with your mom, they have made their money.

    3. Re:DVDs by Yosho · · Score: 1

      And I've never seen a game at discount, have you? Nor have I ever seen a game as heavily marketed as a DVD.

      Are you serious? Walk into a GameStop or Best Buy and look through the game aisles -- there are rows of older games that have been discounted from the initial price. Check out http://www.cheapassgamer.com/, they have deals on games all the time.

      I find it hard to believe you've never seen a game as heavily marketed as a DVD, either. All of the really big games have huge advertising campaigns -- Rock Band, Grand Theft Auto, Final Fantasy... I use MythTV to skip over commercials when watching TV and I still catch bits of game ads all the time.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    4. Re:DVDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've never seen a game at discount you've never looked in a real store.
       
      And any movie worth the time made back it's money at the theater. And the long tail of a movie is much much longer. A game has about 18 months to make any real money, after that it's just trying to make the money back that you put into the physical product. Fucking Jaws still sells at over 10 USD and has for over 20 years between VHS and DVD. Find me a game as old as Jaws that's still on the shelf let alone a steady seller. Find me a game more than 5 years old that is even on a game store shelf.
       
      There are tons of 5-10 dollar games... on Steam. The new long tail of the game industry is the download distribution method. Expect more of this in the future.

    5. Re:DVDs by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      I think what he may have been saying is that games don't "go on sale" as often or in the same way as DVDs. For example, the first week they come out, new release DVDs are often discounted $5 or so (~25%) at most brick-and-mortar stores. Can you imagine this being the case for games? If in the first week new release games were $45, and then they went up to $60 after that, first-week sales volumes would be huge. That's dangerous, of course, because depending on the game sales the first week are probably huge anyway, and if the game actually sucks then no one's going to be suckered into paying $60 for it after the word gets out after the first week. You'd have to decide carefully if your game is good enough to pull such a thing off.

  31. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by WeatherServo9 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why do games cost $60? Because that is what the market will pay. Does this even need to be discussed?

    I would think yes; yeah, we all know basic economics, but from someone not working in the industry how much do we know about how this price point was reached? Was this found by trial and error? Market research? Both/other? To what extent have there been deviations and what were the results? To what extent do Nintendo/Sony/MS play a role with "suggestions" about pricing? How does price set expectations about quality? What about the impact of historical prices on the perception of current prices? And whatever else I forgot...There's probably a lot of detail that can be explored about the topic that goes beyond just saying "that's what the market will pay". The article isn't great though it mentions a few points but could have been more detailed and researched.

  32. Same reason by kmac06 · · Score: 1

    It's the same reason every movie at a theater costs the same, regardless of the budget.

  33. Huh? by Bluesman · · Score: 1

    Games are $20. You just have to wait a few years. I'm just now enjoying Final Fantasy X, but still. The only way I'd pay $60 for a game is if the title starts with Starcraft.

    --
    If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
  34. This sounds familiar by shoptroll · · Score: 1

    Haven't read TFA but this stood out at me from the summary:

    "'I'm not sure that we'll see a standard $70 price point at all. To my mind, emerging technologies, subscriptions and episodic and downloadable content should all enable price drops -- increasing accessibility to a much wider audience.'"

    Well if it worked for AT&T and Apple, I'm sure it'll work for the games industry. Decrease the initial investment cost, charge a regular subscription fee (DLC can serve this purpose too) and profit. No ???? needed.

    Of course, it should be pointed out that PC and Wii games have stayed at $50. Just sayin'.

    --
    Insert Sig Here
  35. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

    It's more than just data that we're talking about here. Supply also includes the money and man-hours that go into developing the games. According to your statement, with a "practically infinite" supply, publishers should be able to make profits while selling their games for $1 a piece. Obviously, that is just not true.

    --
    Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
  36. Article seems like BS justification to me. by Marful · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article's pricing justification seems like complete BS to me. Just looking at the claimed "retail + shipping" costs tell me that the values are completely inflated.


    $10 to manufacture and ship? WTF?

    It costs approximately $0.75* to manufacture the DVD, print it's label, print the wrap that goes in the amaray case and package it. The packaging is approximately $0.55-$1.50* more (depending on how much junk / crap they stuff inside plus the manual).

    Then once packaged the product gets bulk shipped. Claiming $7.75 for shipping per product would mean that a case of 20 unites would cost $155 to ground ship. That's a pretty absurd number. $7.75 is the cost to me if I were to ground ship each package individually to a different location.


    No, this article is nothing but BS justification for game prices. The real reason why games cost exactly $59.99 has nothing to do with costs or logistics and revolves entirely around price point.

    $59.99 is exactly the price point that industry wants per game, regardless of actual cost/development.


    *Note: I work for a company that replicates DVD's and print the packaging and assemble. Thus I know the real costs for the packaging.

    1. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by Marful · · Score: 1

      $7.75 is the cost to me if I were to ground ship each package individually to a different location.

      Just checked my UPS rates... It's actually less that $5 to ground ship a software box or game title from San Diego to New York City...

    2. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      You honestly think it takes $1.50 to ship the various parts from the various manufacturers (sorry, one factory doesn't produce DVD, manual, box, and so on) to a central facility, where they're assembled into units, then to ship to regional warehouses, then to individual vendors?

      Come on.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    3. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, 10$ was for cost of goods. So, that includes making the disc, but probably includes the fee paid to the console maker, probably distributor profit and a bunch of other stuff to.

      Saying that $59.99 is the price point that the industry WANTS is the price fixing argument. I am sure if that was the case, the industry would want a lot more.

      Anyway, if this is the price the industry wants, why do they want such a weird price, and why don't they want a bunch of price points on the console. I think you missed the point.

    4. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by stonemetal · · Score: 1

      Yeah it cost 2 bucks to manufacture but MS\Nintendo\Sony get 5$ a box.

    5. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by thanq · · Score: 1

      Agreed in terms of cost of goods, but do not forget that there is time involved in grabbing a box, putting the game in a box, putting packaging material in, printing packing slips/labels, sticking on the labels... then there is the cost of tools to make this process more effective, cost of management, and there are also minimum wages to pay for the person who does this work.

      Also, there are days when there is only one order per day and the person may not pay for his/her time by packaging the boxes.

      SO - for a small operation, I would generally agree with you that difference between actual ship cost and charged shipping is profit. For larger operations (hundreds or thousands of daily packages/orders) often only fraction of the difference is profit.

      Note: I work for a fulfillment company that packages and ships goods.

    6. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by Marful · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, my work has 2 CD lines and 2 DVD lines (machines that make the discs from raw plastic pellets). We also have x3 40" offset sheet fed presses, x3 40" die-cutting presses, x3 40" UV coating screen presses and x2 Straightline folding carton gluers as well as a stitcher trimer for saddle stitching booklets.

      We are not unique. We have a lot of competitors. So yes, there are in fact companies that do everything in one place. The customers like this because they do not have to buy out each part of the process at a different location and coordinate things. The $2.25 per unit does in fact include local shipping via our trucks to any local destination (within 50 miles).


      So considering the $2.25 cost for each unit, there is a heck of a lot of profit to be had by reselling it @ $59.99.

    7. Re:Article seems like BS justification to me. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Great, what's your capacity? I need 1,000,000 units of Batman: Arkham Asylum. Three separate discs, six separate covers. They need to be shipped to various points from Texas to Alaska, and various points in Canada. Here are the gold masters, I expect every to be ready to sell in stores within 10 days. Can do?

      Actually, it just occured to me that various stores get customized covers and inserts. So factor that in.

      Oh,and in five days, you'll be getting an even bigger order for the next big game.

      What's that? My entire shipment is delayed because your offset printer broke down? Well shit. If only we'd been smart enough to farm each item out, individually, to several manufacturers.

      I find it interesting that you mention 'free shipping within 50 miles' and then use that to imply that there'd be no extra shipping costs, for example.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  37. Re:Taco Theme by oldspewey · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    One time many years ago, a bunch of us were hanging out at a friend's place watching movies, drinking beer, cracking jokes, shooting the shit, and just chilling out. This was back when most of us were still living with our parents, and the guy who's house we were at - I didn't really know anything about his family or anything.

    So we'd been there for a couple hours when all of a sudden his younger brother - who I didn't even know existed until that very moment - comes tearing into the room and starts running around the furniture in circles. He's panting and making really strange guttural sounds and every now and then he'd blurt out random words. It was all just really mentally jarring after the relaxed, sociable time the bunch of us has just been having.

    The guy who's house we were at stood up after probably 30 seconds, scooped up his little brother by the waist - not in a pissed off way but in more of a fun, playful way - and hauled him out of the room. I heard voices in another part of the house then a minute later the guy came back, sat back down and said "sorry about that guys, Kyle has downs syndrome."

    I nodded and tried to turn my attention back to the movie, but part of my brain was still going "what the fuck was that?"

    The above post left me with the exact same feeling.

    --
    If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
  38. Re:This is news? Sounds more like normal inflation by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

    I believe the giant elephant you are seeing is in fact just a sofa. Even with game costs the way they are now, most games will not actually show any profits, because commercial games cost a LOT more to develop than they did back then.

    --
    Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
  39. most games == Pussycat Dolls by thule · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Trent Reznor feels the same way about many games these days: Joystiq interviews Trent Reznor

    A timeless game is well worth $45 or more. I have been finding old GBA carts that are selling for more than $45 if they are in good condition. Many of the "hardcore" games on modern systems are not nearly worth that price point. Wait a year and you will see how much the game is *really* worth.
    It is amusing that game companies want to shut down used game sales. Maybe they should work on making timeless games with good content.

    1. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by WagonWheelsRX8 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for posting that link...that was an awesome interview...

    2. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "It is amusing that game companies want to shut down used game sales. Maybe they should work on making timeless games with good content."

      The truth is games are over produced, and those that are produced are produced by companies that are driven by the demands of shareholders for short term profits.

      You can see this with EA's pushing out Need for speed every year, I feel sorry for blackbox I bet they were forced to release NFS carbon before it was ready. Most wanted was excellent but carbon was so obviously pushed out, and/or the key people responsible for most wanted left.

      I agree making good games works but not all godo games sell, there are lots of good games that failed financially.

      Planescape torment and Freespace 2 come to mind, FS2 is hailed as one of the best space sims of all time yet it flopped finacnially and volition went to making FPS games for consoles to keep itself alive.

      Timeless game does not always equal financially successful. We see this time and time again with companies making me too clones of FPS, RTS and racing every year.

    3. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like the part where he threatened to beat up Coldplay.

    4. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Games that don't have other human players bore me quickly. OTOH I kept a win98 machine alive for 8yrs just to play a particular version of Delta Force that I had lost the keys to. The CD died in an unfortunate accident during my last house move and the machine is now a linux sandbox. Perhaps one day I will shell out another $60 for an new title.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But timeless games cut into the sales of future games

    6. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by Supurcell · · Score: 1

      Ah, Freespace 2. I wonder if the guys who planned the viper dogfights in the new Battlestar Galactica ever played this game. They used that awesome maneuver where you get up to speed, then cut the engines, flip the fighter around, and fly backwards while shooting bogeys. I did that a million times in that game, because it just made so much sense, yet most games that came since made your ship slow down when you turned off your accelerator in the(not so) frictionless outer space.

      I'm surprised there haven't been any 3D space shooters for the recent consoles. Those double joystick controllers, along with a large view screen would be perfect for piloting a sleek space rocket in three dimensions.

    7. Re:most games == Pussycat Dolls by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      They used that awesome maneuver where you get up to speed, then cut the engines, flip the fighter around, and fly backwards while shooting bogeys.

      I remember the Wing Commander Academy manual actually explaining step by step how to pull off a similar manoeuvre, where you'd fire your afterburners, turn slightly to one side, cut the engines, and then turn hard to the other side, so you'd effectively slide past the bogey, always facing it.

      I did that a million times in that game, because it just made so much sense, yet most games that came since made your ship slow down when you turned off your accelerator in the(not so) frictionless outer space.

      Well, it seems to make sense, until it hits you that, without thrust or friction, your fighter can't actually turn in space either :)

  40. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Do you not understand that supply and demand is just one part of a larger formula?

    You really need to get your head past Econ 101.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  41. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by geekoid · · Score: 1

    The supply isn't the game, the supply is the people who can create a game.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  42. Guy needs to take an economics class by gurps_npc · · Score: 3, Insightful
    1. Prices are controlled by supply AND demand, not just supply. This young ignoramus exaimed supply only and forgot to consider demand.

    2. The truth is that supply side pricing is pretty consistent. He listed out the costs to deliver to a store. That is a solid $27. You need to throw in at least $5 for development and another $5 profit. OK, so the minimum price is $37 for a new game. But $5 profit out of $37 is a low margin on. Clothing is about as high as it gets at x20 cost for high end. Food goes for about profit margin about 5% at a grocery store (less than x2). But the truth is people LIKE making games. We do it for free. So they can't really raise the profit up to that high x20. They can't even get it above x2 for $74.

    3. If you can wait a year, you can get the game for $20. Pretty much all games.

    4. Games are priced at $60 not because of an evil conspiracy but because that is how much we budget for NEW games. It is the demand that is setting the price, not the supply. When supply sets prices, it varies more.

    5. The real problem is that of difficulty in accurately measuring the pleasure provided by the new game. There is no simple way we can get an accurate worth on the product to us, in the short time that the game comes out. The best we can do is read articles, which by the time they come out, the item is already priced.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  43. Right after they kill the secondhand market by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    That's when we'll see $70 games.

  44. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i think that tacokill gets it but Yvan doesn't.
    supply and demand can still be applied when supply is "practically infinite" and demand is finite. demand dominates the governing equation.

  45. What a joke of an article. by tengeta · · Score: 1

    10 dollars to manufacture a disk, manual, and case? No. Never.

    --
    "They confiscated everything, even the stuff we didn't steal!"
  46. ob xkcd by geekoid · · Score: 1
    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  47. Because they can by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they can. Don't pay more than 59.99, or the prices will go up. Simple economics.

  48. How come nobody ever just looks at the books? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The latest stock info for ERTS (aka EA) seems to show that they are losing plenty of money.

  49. Someone has to license that anti-customer malware! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The situation goes like this:
    The publishers have wet dreams about making customers pay again and again for the same content when the customer's CD/DVD wears out. As a result, several parasite companies have sprung up to sell the publishers "protection software". As you can imagine, this malware costs money to develop and license. This is where they screw the buying public over twice. First, you have to indirectly pay some parasite corporation to hide software in your own machine. Second, the publisher and the malware vendor are in cahoots to turn your purchases into rentals. We are seeing this with games like GTA4, which have to be activated.

  50. It actually is cheaper. by NoYob · · Score: 1
    According to this website (in the bar on the right), $49 in 1979 is the same as $143.90 in today's dollars or $49 is $16.69 in 1979 dollars. The price has actually come down in terms of real dollars.

    But, that's what the economists say. They're also saying the economy is getting better and we should be happy.

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    1. Re:It actually is cheaper. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      According to this website (in the bar on the right), $49 in 1979 is the same as $143.90 in today's dollars or $49 is $16.69 in 1979 dollars. The price has actually come down in terms of real dollars.
      But, that's what the economists say. They're also saying the economy is getting better and we should be happy.

      Some economists are saying that there are high-level leading indicators that the economy is pulling out of a recession.

      And even most of those that are saying that aren't saying "we should be happy"; quite a lot of economists (though far less of the people that report on the economy in the media) know that aggregate improvements in the economy don't necessarily mean most people are experiencing better conditions (I suspect that economists are the profession most likely to be aware that even during an economic expansion, its quite likely to see the conditions for most people get worse while the benefits all go to a very small elite; indeed, they are also probably the group most likely to be aware that there is evidence that that is what occurred in the expansion preceding the current recession.)

    2. Re:It actually is cheaper. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But manufacturing costs per unit have come down much faster than inflation has gone up, and the total volume of games sold has gone up (by a lot: the game market has increased at a higher rate per year than inflation). Such that total profits have gone up the entire time. Such that I don't recall anyone in the industry complaining about inflation; it usually only ever comes up, oddly enough, when apologists start trying to retroactively justify price increases. What the industry itself usually says is something like "we think this game is so awesome it's worth X" or sometimes the more cynical "we think people will pay X for this".

    3. Re:It actually is cheaper. by Kagato · · Score: 1

      According to an Atari employee back in 1979 it cost $5 to make a cartridge, including the $100,000 to develop it. Atari took a lot less in profit back then because the wholesale was a little over $20. However, they didn't have to subsidize the console cost like they do now.

      Still, at only $5 a game it isn't like there was much cost to reduce in the first place. If anything I would guess the costs savings in physically make the product are offset by development costs.

    4. Re:It actually is cheaper. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >$49 in 1979 is the same as $143.90 in today's dollars

      This is rarely the clean, simple linear relation that it's made out to be.

      $40 computer game dollars are not strictly equivalent to $40 gasoline dollars or $40 milk dollars.

      I once made a hobby out of saving things like old grocery ads, because I found it amusing to find cheaper
      prices in the mid 1980s than ad prices literally in the same store from the mid 1960s. An economist can say whatever he'd like about inflation and so on, but I will still say it depends on your universe of discourse, once you move past the academic abstractions.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  51. Question - Why? by Evil+Shabazz · · Score: 1

    Answer - Economics 101

    But, just to add something interesting (at least to me), have a gander at this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

    --
    Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
  52. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by tacokill · · Score: 1

    The article asked why games cost $60. It did not ask "what considerations do publishers go through to arrive at the $60 price point?". At the end of the day, when you cut through all the marketing BS, ALL pricing is established by the market. There are no exceptions, even for monopolies, because people always have the right NOT to buy a product. So even monopolies have to be responsive to the market when they set their prices.

    I do, however, find it hilarious that the marketing droids of the world have somehow convinced everyone that it is more complicated than supply and demand. I understand that companies want to try to affect the price point - and they can (through quality or other criteria) - but at the end of the day, the fair market value of their widget (ie: the price) is established when you have a willing buyer and a willing seller. Everything else is 100% superficial and nothing more than an emotional attempt to sway the price at which you are willing to buy.

    Here, let me quickly run down your list:
    market research -- yep, everyone does it. It is surely a factor.
    Trial and error -- yes, a little bit of trial and error too. It is surely a factor.
    Deviations? -- yes, there is a "grey" market and the publishers don't like it. They are surely a factor.
    Sony/MSFT -- they play a large factor because they are large suppliers in this industry
    Price/quality -- ok, this is legit. This would be a good study and worthy of further effort. Perhaps this is what the article should have been about
    Historical pricing -- doesn't really matter. Past history is no indication, etc, etc



    Again, the article asked, "Why are games priced at $60?". Answer: because that is all the market will pay for games. If the market was willing to pay more, then publishers would surely increase prices. And if there were more games at $70 than people wanted/needed...then the price would come back down to $60. Supply and demand.

  53. Re:Someone has to license that anti-customer malwa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i would think that if you wear out media than you're getting your money's worth out of it. either that or you're just careless with your stuff.

  54. I used to make this same exuse... by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...for myself as to why $15 per month was not an unreasonable WoW fee. Then I stopped paying for monthly subscriptions and reunited my life with the real world. I learned something when I did that. WoW and video games in general, as much fun as they are, shield you from the joys of reality. Granted, the fees being paid are less than those you would pay for going to the movies or going to the bars, but you don't actually get to meet people face to face in WoW or Halo 3 online. Frankly, if I don't play WoW all day, I probably will get bored, get outside, and might just meet someone. Suppose I ask that someone to come hang out and watch a movie with me. Well now I just made a friend and watched a possibly decent movie for $15. I would say that having a pal to go run amock with rather than spending my afternoons and evenings in front of my computer was well worth that $15.

    In fact, you can also find fun things to do in the real world that are cheaper than WoW AND movies. Imagine that. For instance, suppose again that I don't play video games all the time and instead walk down to the beach every so often instead. After awhile, walking alone might get boring so I start swimming, skimboarding, surfing, or playing volleyball there. Now not only have I saved myself the cost of the video game, but I have started learning a new skill, which in and of itself is a much more rewarding experience than epic loots. On top of it, I'm at the beach, even if I don't meet anyone I can gawk at all the cute girlies in bikinis. Priceless.

    Don't live by the beach? Make for a mountain hike, or go explore a forest, or go buy a $15 bike off craigslist and start mountain biking...the possibilities are endless really.

    I suppose what I am getting at is that this mindset of "Either video games or drinking or movies..." is really stifling. For some reason we think it makes sense to pay a crapton of money for eye-candy which really just paints a picture of what's already alive and well in our own imaginations when, in fact, we could be going out and living our own adventures.

    Do yourself a favor...just say no to video games (mostly, I do admit that I still play Halo regularly and own both Mass Effect and Fallout 3).

    1. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by sopssa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't need to be either that or this. You can enjoy both worlds, just as long as you don't take gaming too long. I enjoy traveling, going out and hanging out with my girlfriend. On the other hand I enjoy sitting on computer, coding, gaming, writing on slashdot. As long as you balance them both good, it's great. Or even mix them; I like watching while my gf plays gta or some other games and drink a beer while she does so. And I like it when I play Left4Dead till 4am at night and she wakes up and comes sitting behind me to watch me finish it and convinces me to get to sleep then.

      You dont need to choose either one, you can do both as long as you balance it.

    2. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Ohio you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by gclef · · Score: 1

      Do yourself a favor...just say no to video games

      Heretic!

      Seriously, though, I grew up playing video games. Renouncing them would be like renouncing a part of my childhood...one that brought me a lot of joy. So I'm really not likely to do that. I suspect (but obviously have no hard evidence) that a lot of the folks here are similar...telling us to "go outside and get a life" is not really the best tactic.

      (And let's be honest: I hate hiking.)

    4. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      What is this "beach" you speak of? Is it a dark place?

    5. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Ifandbut · · Score: 1

      Then I stopped paying for monthly subscriptions and reunited my life with the real world. I learned something when I did that. WoW and video games in general, as much fun as they are, shield you from the joys of reality.

      Some of us want to be shielded from reality. For some of us, before we discovered MMOs our reality was filled with disappointment, loneliness, sadness, and a utterly pointless grind day after day from which we can see no escape.

      I used to think about killing myself just about every day. I did not understand how people could go to the same job and do the same thing every day. Then, my company offered a voluntary layoff. I did the math and realized I could live for more then 6 months off my savings and the money they would pay me. I jumped at the chance.

      Now, even though my life is no more fulfilling then it was when I was working at least I now have the flexibility to jump from distraction to distraction when my mind feels like it instead of being forced to sit in a 3.5 wall card board box 8+ hrs every day.

    6. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hold up- you turned to MMOs to escape utterly pointless grinds?

    7. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    8. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I suppose what I am getting at is that this mindset of "Either video games or drinking or movies..." is really stifling.

      So is "either video games our going outside" - it's quite possible to enjoy a few hours of gaming and a few hours of biking a week. There are plenty of choices, and very few are a hard "either/or."


      ...but holy shit my WoW addiction is cheaper than my mountain bike addiction :(

      --
      +1 Disagree
    9. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      I like how I got modded funny....I was actually trying to be serious....maybe it was the irony of the last sentence that did it... >

    10. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by D+Ninja · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's where you have to go to collect 36 Murloc Eyeballs. Duh.

    11. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While that is true, it's not really sustainable. Seek help, please.

    12. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by ADRenalyn · · Score: 1

      That's nice that the "games wreck your life" attitude works for you.

      I was once able to spend hours every day trying out all the new games or grinding away in EverQuest or WoW, hiding from "the real world" behind my computer screen or television. Then I let my friend talk me into dropping my games to get socially involved. I met a great woman, we hit it off and eventually started living together. Skip ahead in time a bit, I now have two kids, a job, and I am going back to school full time. We travel every weekend to see family or visit "fun" places for the kids. There's so much "life" going on that I have little to no time for gaming anymore.

      I'd give anything to go back in time and kick my friend in the teeth.

    13. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your personal experience (and the methods through which you derive happiness) are yours, and nobody can tell you those are wrong.

      Similarly, you cannot tell me that because I don't enjoy the outside, I am wrong.

      We simply derive happiness different ways. I'm glad you found yours. Don't project yours onto mine.

    14. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by tyrus568 · · Score: 1

      Seriously, though, I grew up playing video games. Renouncing them would be like renouncing a part of my childhood...one that brought me a lot of joy. So I'm really not likely to do that.

      Heh. Try picking up a narcotics habit. Seriously, go take oxycontin, fentanyl or heroin for a few years. You'll find out (after the agonizing, suicidal withdrawal) that you will basically never have fun with anything else ever again (anhedonia) even from stuff you grew up with, games and people that you know you should enjoy. Not that I'm talking from bitterly personal experience, or anything.

    15. Re:I used to make this same exuse... by dodonpachi · · Score: 1

      I earned friendship with 3-4 people during my 3 years playing Final Fantasy XI. Had very good times with it/them. But I must agree the game was masking a "real" life I wasn't enjoying. I dunno if playing the game was the reason (one of them) I was in bad shape (body, mind, life in general) Or maybe the game was just a symptom something was going wrong (with or without game). And I'm sure I don't regret having played all those moments. But I agree with this comment in a first person view. Life is so great, so beautiful. The small things and the big ones. There are so many, and so little time, that I prefer to avoid somehow those that tends to alienate me from others (some drugs, some games...) I played WoW for 12 months later. But from another point of view. I've enjoyed it a lot too. Trick was giving to all activities higher priority than WoW's. No matter if it was just a beer with a friend who wants to talk about his job. No matter, it takes priority. No weird excuses. You put on your clothes, walk/drive to him and enjoy. WoW, raids and bosses will be there later... You just have real things on that exact moment. I plan to play Final Fantasy XIV the same way next year. I'll only permit this kind of games to enter my life on "lonely sundays evenings"... And only if it rains !!!!! I've discovered I like to walk !!!!! ^_^ PD: Maybe I'haven't expressed myself correctly. English is not my first language -_-

  55. Supply and demand by mrlibertarian · · Score: 1

    After all, those two titles surely took different amounts of man hours to develop...

    That has nothing to do with determining the price. All that matters is how much consumers are willing to pay, and that is determined by supply and demand.

    ...$12 to retailer, $5 to discounts/returns/retail marketing, $10 toward manufacturing costs and shipping.

    Costs do not determine price. It's the other way around: Since retailers know they will be able to sell a game for $60, they are willing to pay $48 to stock it on their shelves. And so on down the supply chain.

    Suppose that consumers were suddenly willing to pay $70 for games. Because retailers know they can charge more, they will probably be willing to pay more to stock the game. In other words, costs will rise if consumers are willing to pay more.

    But, on the other hand, rising costs do not necessarily lead to price increases. For example, if $15 was charged for manufacturing costs and shipping (instead of $10), games might still go for $60, because consumer demand has not changed. The price of games would only go up if the increase in costs caused the supply of games to decrease (or if the market anticipated a decrease in supply).

    So, why do most games cost $60? It's all supply and demand. Gamers, in general, are not willing to pay more than $60, no matter how much time and money was put into a game. On the other hand, if a game costs less than $60, less games may be sold, because many consumers believe (rightly or wrongly) that a lower price indicates lower quality. In time, games will probably cost more than $60, because the federal reserve is increasing the supply of dollars at a much faster rate than the supply of games.

    1. Re:Supply and demand by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The retailer is in a suprising amount of control over the price as well. They can tell the publisher they are more than happy to pay $48 to sell a game at $60, thereby making $12 per game. Should the publisher come in with a game with an MSRP of $50 the retailer will often say it is a dead price point because everything else on their shelf is $60, so why not make the price $60?

      At the same time, a $50 game might be sold to the retailer for $40 with them only making $10 per sale. They might say no thanks they can sell every $60 on their shelf so why throw $2 away. There is only a finite amount of shelf space and the retailer wants to make all the money they can from filling it intelligently.

      The same goes for online retailers in a different way. The "shelf space" may not be limited in the same way but the amount of attention products get and how they are promoted is finite.

      What it all comes down to is that without the retailer, the game isn't going anywhere anyway except as a niche product that only a few people know about. So you have to work with the retailer and what the retailer wants.

  56. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, except that there's been approximately zero effort put into price discovery on the part of the sellers. The market will pay $60 (apparently)... but when was the last time you saw a game priced at $70 to see if the market would pay that? What about $50 to see if it would increase sales? Are you getting the same quality play experience out of every game on the shelf? No? Then why does the market tolerate a fixed price for different-quality games?

    It's not so much a question of "why is the price fixed" but "why is the price fixed at this particular point." That's the interesting part.

    --
    Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
  57. timeless games by thule · · Score: 1

    They spent all that money to make all the awesome graphics for a game that many people play once and sell it back to Gamestop. Then the publisher complains about used game sales.

    If game companies made games that last as long as say, Pac-man or Super Mario Brothers, then people will not only willing pay $60, but they will hang on to the game forever.

    Trent Reznor gets it: Joystiq interviews Trent Reznor

  58. It's what the market will bear. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    Why do PC games still cost $40 to $50? I've always heard the excuse that they're paying for licensing. While I accept that's true to some extent the reason console games are so expensive is because that's what the market will bear. From everything I've seen console gamers are less discriminating. Even when they feel they've been wronged by a developer or publisher they'll go right on buying those games. I suspect console gamers skew younger which means they're often not spending their own money and if they are, gaming is still a very important thing to them. Look at the lengths people are willing to go to in order to get a game the day of release. Like you're somehow getting a better game because you're first in line.

    I'd say PC gamers tend to more cost-conscious and shop around for deals. However, probably more importantly, there are fewer people buying PC games which means publishers need to work harder to entice gamers to buy a new game. This is why I can walk into a retailer and find a brand new PC game on sale but with console games how quickly the price is dropped is dictated by the popularity of the game.

    If the vast majority of gamers stopped buying games in protest of their pricing I guarantee you within a couple of weeks prices would drop dramatically. Unfortunately people value entertainment more highly than they do principles.

  59. Rent instead. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    That's fine. I bought a PS2 and only purchase used games, or the 3-packs for $20 at wal-mart. If the rest of you would join me, we can have a big downward pressure on prices. I'm playing a $3 game this week.

    Or you can rent new games instead of buying - then the price doesn't matter to you at all. In fact, given that some games have 20 hours or less of gameplay, it makes sense to rent it for a week and forget about owning it. Then you would buy only the games which have good reply value, or are intended for mostly online play.

    Above all, everyone needs to realize that if they pay $60 for a game, they are allowing the games to stay that high. It would only take a few weeks for game places to see zero sales, shit themselves, and drop prices.

  60. Games in Finland cost more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yup, it's nice that you get games for 60 dollars, it's 100 dollars in Finland (about 70 euros per game). And yeah, 70 euros is a lot for a game.

  61. Anchoring by alphabetsoup · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We all know the supply and demand thing, but the question the author asks is, games don't inherently have a value, so how does the market determine its price to be $60 ? That is, why isn't the market clearing price not $30 or $90 ?

    In addition to the points the author mentions, another explanation is in the phenomenon of anchoring. Humans inherently do not know the value of any good, so the first price they see for a product stays in their mind and they compare all prices for that product off that anchor. We have grown used to seeing $60 as price for games - it has become an anchor - so all new games are priced at that.

    A brilliant example of anchoring is given in the book "Predictably Irrational" by Dan Ariely. He gives an example of Tahitian black pearls. When they were discovered all pearls used to be white, so black pearls had no market and no value. But a very clever marketing campaign was launched to *anchor* the black pearls with very expensive jewellery, and hence there value became very high.

    Economics assumes that people are rational. However, people are often irrational. There is a subject called behavioural economics which studies irrational behaviour of people and the limits of normal economics.

  62. No, they are not much more expensive by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Inflation from 1990 to 2009 : inflation. OK it is Maine, ok it is not an official nubmers, but from 130 to 215 it is a 65% increase of cost of living. So at least for Maine, game are actually LOWER in cost than they were 20 years ago. In my experience it is the same in Europe.

    --
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    visit randi.org
  63. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    Do you understand the concept of supply? We're talking about data here. You can't apply supply and demand concepts when the supply is practically infinite.

    Your statement would only be true if every single game for sale was identical. Supply refers to providing things that people want, it's not limited to just how many copies of a game you can sell.

    Supply and demand still apply, here.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  64. Re:Why by FCAdcock · · Score: 1

    Because God loves the infantry! Now you STFU.

    --
    --Forest C. Adcock--
  65. it's value, not cost by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Games cost $60 because some of them are worth it to the consumer. What makes a game worth $60? It can be any number of things: Many hours of interesting gameplay; unique game design; impressive graphics; a chance to revisit a favorite movie universe or play a favorite comic book character; a social experience with friends; a perfect progression of challenge.

    Of course, plenty of games aren't worth $60 (or at least aren't worth that much to very many people). They get introduced at that price point, because every developer hopes that their game will turn out to be worth 60 bucks to a lot of people, and experience has shown that that is about as much as a consumer is willing to pay for a really good game. The ones that aren't worth that much to many people don't stay at $60 for long, because before long the retailer starts cutting the price to get them off the shelves and make room for new games that might actually sell for $60.

    How much games cost to make is pretty much irrelevant here. The publisher is going to scale a games budget to what he sees as its sales potential, and there may be some games that don't get made because the developer doesn't see how they could possibly make money. But a really popular game will more than pay back its development costs.

  66. Tacit collusion by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

    Tacit collusion. 'Nuff said.

  67. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by dust4ngel · · Score: 1

    well i think the point of interest here is industry collusion, price-fixing, etc. there is more to free-market theory than 'what the market will bear', namely 'real competition'.

  68. Re:Its justified price - OT by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Completely off-topic, but I paid nothing for my nonexistent jersey, because I'm not gonna pay into a company (yes, the NFL is a corporation, not a national institution) that actively hates it's fans, charging through the ass for seats and making it hard for people to even be fans of the game by trying to claim copyright of anything that once looked in their direction. Fuck them.

  69. i have no patience for dumb people by triceice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The reason it cost $60 is because that is what we are willing to pay. To the person that posted the question spend the money to get a college economics class. You really are clueless.

  70. Postal Service too... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    Most modern game boxes could easily get into the Priority Mail flatrate envelope, which has a $4.80 postage charge anywhere in the US, which is reduced by a few percent further of you print the shippign label online.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  71. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, the "feelies" (box, manual, media) are real world items and are finite. Cheap as the materials are, there's also the manufacturing process (printing box art/manuals, stamping CD images) which adds time and therefore money. For download-only distributions, the limiting factor is bandwidth and server upkeep.

    I'm not saying that those costs justify such a high price because I have no idea what the figures are. However, it is not a simple matter of "data is infinite" in this case. In other arguments, maybe; but in this one, no.

  72. i spend 50 cents to go to a movie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its called 'second run theatres'

    'kids meal' popcorn/drink - 5 dollars.

    seeing artsy english movies in a packedd theatre of laughing old people - priceless

  73. The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most people could afford $30 or less for a game, but not $60. Which is why people pirate the games on P2P networks. They cannot afford it and the pirated version has the DRM removed. But the P2P version may cause lockups and might be malware infected, so people are taking a chance when they pirate a game from P2P networks.

    But common sense says the #1 reason why people pirate the games is the cost of them. When the Atari 2600 came out games cost $15 to $30 each, but as the Atari 2600 got old they got sold at bargain bins for $5 to $1 each. Sometime in the 1980's the video game console market collapsed and then games got cheaper. Then in the 1990's they went to $30 again, then $40 or $45 by 2000. Then by 2005 they were almost $55, and now in 2009 they are $59.99. Yeah games did get bigger and more of a challenge to develop, but most of the work is offshored to the cheapest labor in third world nations and then the debuggers are in the USA. It is the same way with sneakers, they make them in third world nations but sell for $100 or more in the USA.

    It is corporate greed and the companies conspire to all sell at the same retail price. Which is why sales are down, and companies cannot earn money. They keep raising the profit margin and that raises the retail price. If video games were reasonably priced, most people wouldn't pirate them, and video game companies will earn more money via the volume of sales. Back in the 1980's before they had DRM in games, after the crash, video game companies made millions and there wasn't as much piracy as there was now as games cost $20 or $30 each back then. Games like Bard's Tale made record sales and profits, but the Bard''s Tale remake for $60 wasn't anything like the original and was bloated and buggy and thus made record losses and couldn't sell very well.

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    1. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      It is corporate greed and the companies conspire to all sell at the same retail price. Which is why sales are down, and companies cannot earn money. They keep raising the profit margin and that raises the retail price. If video games were reasonably priced, most people wouldn't pirate them, and video game companies will earn more money via the volume of sales.

      No, they won't. Cheap games don't make as much for retailers, so cheap games will never see light of day. The space on the shelf costs the retailer the same no matter what, so they want to put the highest performing items on the shelf possible. That means volume and their margin.

      Nobody in the retail world believes low prices drive volume - popularity, advertising and hype drive volume. So if you had an incredibly popular game you might find a retailer willing to take a big cut on their marginal income per sale. Might.

      More likely, you have the retailer telling the publisher they have space for $60 MSRP games and will take all they can provide. Sorry, no space for $30 games at all.

    2. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by longfalcon · · Score: 1

      Yeah games did get bigger and more of a challenge to develop, but most of the work is offshored to the cheapest labor in third world nations and then the debuggers are in the USA. It is the same way with sneakers, they make them in third world nations but sell for $100 or more in the USA.

      making a game is not like making a pair of sneakers. and you have it the other way around: usually QA is offshored, as the quality is not as bad at a low price point. when you offshore, you absolutely get what you pay for - if you pay peanuts, the quality of the work you get back will reflect that.

      sure greed is a factor, but like movies, video games are very risky - we've all seen great ideas crater and take untold amounts of money with them. those losses and failures have to be offset by successful games - hence the video game and movie industry's reliance on "sure bets": franchises/sequels.

    3. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Explain then the $10 rack at some discount stores that have old games that sell well, and have a profit for the discount store.

      Explain to me how Wal Mart can be the most profitable retailer by selling things at a lower cost than other retailers and making record profits by bulk sales at a lower profit margin.

      Explain to me how Fast Food stores make record profits by having a dollar menu and make record losses without one.

      I do see $30 games right next to the $60 ones, the $60 games are in stock and hardly anyone wants to buy them, but the $30 games are in short stock or sold out because they are more affordable.

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    4. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Actually the reason why most movies and video games fail is because they are crap. They aren't worth the money and the QA did a crappy job, the developers or actors did a crappy job, the script or analysis and design was crappy etc.

      If they used the same process to develop a house it would catch on fire and then fall apart because the quality was so bad, it doesn't meet safety codes.

      In the good old salad days, there was hardly any bugs or bloat to video games and they fit nicely within 12 megabytes of space, and ran fast without any bugs at all except for a select few that had no big effect on game play or performance. Usually color and sound bugs.

      Most of the time the public or audience is not part of the QA process, which is why video games and movies fail. If they were they would point out plot problems, things that don't make the video game or movie enjoyable, things they want changed and what they expect from the movie and game. You see, instead of giving people what they want, they are instead telling people what they want. That is very bad for business.

      For example: Wolverine: Origins, the fans wanted to see a movie true to the original origin of Wolverine. But instead it got Hollywoodized and changed around, Sabertooth is now Wolverine's brother and Wolverine is an American born in colonial times instead of born in Canada. Weapon-X is in the USA instead of Canada. Most of the story does not make sense when I saw it and paid my $10 to see it I was sadly dissapointed. Even this parody is more enjoyable than the original movie and it shows plot failures and things that don't make sense.

      I am not sure but it seems like Hollywood and Video Game creators are on some type of illegal drugs or something that causes them to make crap this way, worse than ever before in the history of the USA. They cannot even come up with original ideas and have to borrow them from old TV shows or comic books or remakes of old Hollywood movies (sometimes remaking a Bollywood, or Thailand, or Foreign movie to a US version).

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    5. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Explain to me

      There's really not enough space to give a crash course on marketing, even an industry-specific one.
      Also by your wording I suspect you already know the answers to some of your questions.

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    6. Re:The $60 price is the #1 reason for P2P piracy by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Marketing in a nutshell:

      PPPP

      Price, Promotion, Place, and Product.

      If you want to sell something and market it, these are at least four factors you want to consider.

      Price if it is too high you won't sell too many of them, too low and you won't earn a profit, you have to find that sweet spot where supply meets demand at the right price using economic theories.

      Promotion is how you promote the product and can include sales and discounts. With the right type of promotion you can sell your product, with the wrong one you won't sell much.

      Place, the location of where you sell your product is important. If people cannot get to it you cannot sell hardly any. In the Internet age it is the location of the web site that sells it, be it Amazon.com, yourcompanyname.com, digitalriver.com, etc you have to have a place to sell it. Even a $10 rack at a discount store, or on the shelf next to the $60 items selling for half that price for $30.

      Product, the features and abilities of your product help to market it. People won't buy your product if they don't see a need for it. When you make your product be sure to fill needs and add in things people actually want. It should be enjoyable and give the customer good quality for their money.

      Yeah I know the answers, $30 games sell more than $60 games. Wal Mart sells at lower prices than their competition but make up for it via volume of sales and cutting costs in other areas. The $10 rack for old video games makes money because the R&D was covered for those games when they sold for $30 to $60, and people who remember those games will buy another copy after losing their last one, and people who pirated the game in the first place would gladly buy it for $10 to play the game legit and without bugs or malware.

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  74. Hello Real World by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

    While that one game you bought was half the price, PC games are normally $10 cheaper, not 50%. And the experience is not "usually equal or better". It is rarely better. Equal, sure. Worse? I see a lot of that. A lot of PC ports are often half assed and ignored.

  75. $60 is too much by Nyder · · Score: 1

    Honestly, I think $60 is too much for a game.

    PC games are usually at $40 new where I live (Seattle).
    I can usually get them at $30 bucks if I wait a few months after release.

    I have a Xbox 360 and those games are like $60 new.
    Most games that I can play on both my PC and 360, the 360 looks worse.
    And on top of it, I'd have to pay for the Gold live to play online.
    Not to mention all the little crap MS wants to nickle and dime you on their live service.

    I only have a few 360 games, bought used. I don't pay for live, and even though I have a 3 month pass for Gold, I doubt I will use it.
    It's just designed to line MS's pocket, and I think thats the wrong approach to take with consoles and video games.

    I don't have a PS3, but I do know their online system is free. Games are about the same price.

    Not sure actually why consoles games have to be $60 while PC games aren't. If a game is being developed for all 3 systems, like most of them are, then I guess maybe it's cheaper for the PC as a way of apologizing for the crappy 360 port?

    I don't know, but here's some advice to anyone that wants to read this far:

    Drop your price. $40 is a magic number. And quit, for the love of (insert your diety here), quit making these stupid behind the charcters shoulder 3rd person view already! While it works with Batman, it doesn't with shooters. Ya, I know, some peeps think you need to use a gamepad to play shooters. And then trying to force it with a off center viewing angle. And do not ever spend more money on advertising then you do on producing the game. oh, and quit making crappy ports. Seriously, spend a little extra time making it special for each system.

    anyways, sorry for the rant.

    --
    Be seeing you...
  76. Couldn't agree more by nobodyman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real answer to games cost $60 is "because people will pay that much". That said, I think there are signs that the price point is more than the market will bear. Look at the meteoric rise of the trade-in market and digital distribution. I'd argue that the lower pricepoint are a big factor.

    Furthermore, look at Left 4 Dead. When they lowered the price to $30 Valve sold more copies that weekend than they did at launch!

    1. Re:Couldn't agree more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real answer to games cost $60 is "because retarded console gamers will pay that much".

      FTFY

    2. Re:Couldn't agree more by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, look at Left 4 Dead. When they lowered the price to $30 Valve sold more copies that weekend than they did at launch!

      Actually, with Left 4 Dead (and Steam in general), Valve hit the perfect model.

      First, charge $60. Fanboys who were eagerly awaiting for the game, and quite a few of the generally clueless public who's bought into raving reviews and ads will pay that.

      Then, drop it down to $40 or $30. This will bring in the second wave, people who liked the idea of the game but not enough to shelve out that $60 (sometimes because they're fans of a different title/series, and were already out $60 for another box at the time of release), and most of the general public who can now base their purchase decisions based on countless user reviews since release and a meaningful rating.

      Finally, drop it to $10-15, and also stick it into a "gold platinum uber-everything pack" of 10 other games of the same time period for $60. At that point, you get the people who will pay for anything that looks even remotely interesting if it's cheap, and also those who are aware of this scheme, are not fanboys, and are willing to wait for the "real price".

      The only problem here is that you have to make a game that is at least decent, otherwise you'll fail halfway through step #1...

    3. Re:Couldn't agree more by ailnlv · · Score: 1

      that's actually a marketing technique that allows you to charge each person what they're willing to pay. Those who think getting the game within the first few days is worth it will pay an inflated price, while those who aren't willing to do that will pay less at a later date. It's exactly what apple does with almost every one of its products; it's insanely expensive to buy apple products anywhere near launch dates, since those prices are reserved for apple fanboys. The rest of us can wait a month or two until they start charging something more reasonable.

    4. Re:Couldn't agree more by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That last mark is already very important when you want to sell a game that relies heavily on multiplayer. L4D can still be sold because there are still people playing it. And while you can in theory play it in single player mode with 3 bots, they are usually too perfect to give you the genuine thrill of playing with three people whose concept of cooperative multiplayer results in "let's see if I can get higher scores than the others".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Couldn't agree more by J-1000 · · Score: 1

      Look at the meteoric rise of the trade-in market and digital distribution.

      Aren't those diametrically opposed? Not that they can't coexist, but they each seem to support opposite sides. With zero trade-in value, a digital purchase is a vote for higher net prices. World of Warcraft and Madden are both proof that you can charge people hundreds of dollars for a game, as long as you are clever.

      Yes, if you were to average all the game prices I'm sure they are way down, but I don't think it's a simple supply/demand problem. These games aren't homogeneous and price is only one of many variables. I bet A-list prices are and will remain as high as ever. Our perspective is skewed because there are more games than ever, so of course there are going to be more losers than ever, more trade-ins than ever, and so on. And consider that old games don't go away, so the stockpiles of used games are going to grow naturally over time. Before the big chains started taking over game shops, did they even have a way to estimate national trade-in sales? I remember plenty of used game shops back in the early 90s, probably in equal proportion to the overall popularity of gaming at the time.

      I'm not saying higher prices are better though. It may have helped Left 4 Dead. On the other hand we don't know what the sales would have been had the price had a more typical life cycle. Maybe exactly the same, but over a longer period of time.

  77. Collusion, probably by Animats · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We know why most audio CDs cost $17.99. Illegal price fixing.

    We know why video games cost $60. Illegal price fixing.

    The FTC and the Justice Department's antitrust unit were out to lunch during the Bush administration, but that seems to be changing. Stay tuned for enforcement.

    1. Re:Collusion, probably by ATG11 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is fairly hard to find a single CD going for $18 today. Five years ago that might not be the case, but today, most CD's are listed easily under $15, and they are priced under $10 when on sale. As for new released video games, illegal price fixing is not the case. The cause for most video games being released at $60 today is profit maximization. New PS3 games, dispite their quality (replay value, graphics, storyline, ease of play) are priced the same. A great game such as Call of Duity is priced the same as a bad game such as GI Joe. Companiescan get away with pricing their games at $60 and even the bad games will do that in order to maximize their profits.

  78. Retailers by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Informative

    One point that it seems a lot of people are missing is the retailer's end in this.

    Let's say a publisher creates 5a game with an MSRP of $25. The retailer isn't ever going to get more than 30%. So that means they can make $7.50 on the game - so little that they probably aren't going to bother with taking the shelf space for it when they can get $12-$18 for some other game that occupies the same place on the shelf.

    Therefore, no game for $25 is ever going to appear on retail store shelves. Or Amazon. Or anywhere else, except direct from the publisher. Which means it isn't going to sell well and won't make much money for the publisher. Therefore no $25 games ever get made.

    Remember, the publishers are competing against one another for shelf space and this market is controlled by the retailer. And if you aren't in retail in one form or another, you aren't in the marketplace at all.

  79. It's so simple... by AlgorithMan · · Score: 1

    It's so simple: both cost 60 bucks because that is what people are prepared to pay TODAY... I remember when I started gaming on a PC in 1996, in germany a top game cost DM 70 (which was about $45-$50 back then) - over the time they increased the price for a top game slowly but steadily and today we pay EUR 60 (which is about $90).
    given, games today look much better (more work), but on the other hand: back then there were no programming frameworks, no unified level-editors, no armature, tougher hardware boundaries and they had a much smaller target group (because not so many people had PCs), so all in all I guess that little of the increased prices is actually justified...

    some day the price will go to $70 and people will say "well, that's just 10 bucks more than what I'm used to - I'm prepared to pay such a little extra for a TOP title like $TopTitle"
    some day the price will go to $80 and people will say "well, that's just 10 bucks more than what I'm used to - I'm prepared to pay such a little extra for a TOP title like $TopTitle"
    some day the price will go to $90 and people will say "well, that's just 10 bucks more than what I'm used to - I'm prepared to pay such a little extra for a TOP title like $TopTitle"
    ...

    --
    The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
  80. 60$ Thats cheap by Bender+Unit+22 · · Score: 1

    New conesole games costs around 100$ where I live. So I never buy new games anymore. 60$ is what preowned games costs. So I only buy preowned but mostly I borrow them.

  81. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

    That's an intriguing point. My first thought was "oh noes, another data wants to be free jerk". But then I thought about what you wrote, and it's very true. Supply and demand doesn't apply here (at least for downloadables); but at the same time "whatever the market will bear" does. Clearly the price is $60 because people will pay 60 -- the "demand" side is certainly covered. But when the supply is infinite at negligible cost. , how does that fit in an economic sense?

  82. $50 by oljanx · · Score: 1

    We must be talking about console games here. Big name PC releases generally go for $50. The only thing I can find on Steam right now that retails for more than $50 is a collectors edition of Aion. The standard edition is still available for $50. So the question is, why do PC games sell for less?

  83. Apparently the only measure of entertainment value by DaveGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, $60 isn't so bad compared to $15 for a movie when comparing the time spent. But that isn't the half of it. Two hours entertainment from a good movie isn't the same as two hours of a good DVD movie, cinema, music CD, gig, the game, golf, hookers or whatever you do for fun. Two hours from different games isn't even the same, nor often is any two hours from the same game. If you're going to use hours as your criteria then how does gaming value stack up against a good novel, a good website, or a walk in the park?

    Sure, I think gaming is good value when you pick with care, but breaking it down into $ per-hour is folly.

  84. Hey, look, a car analogy! by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

    I'm suddenly reminded of how much the "real worth" of a new car is the moment you drive it off the dealer's lot.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    1. Re:Hey, look, a car analogy! by Jiro · · Score: 1

      The reason a car loses a lot of its value when you drive it off the lot is that people preferentially sell bad cars as opposed to good cars. Recently new cars that are for sale are not a representative sample of recently new cars; they are, on the average, worse than the ones that aren't for sale. The market price for a recently new car takes into account the greater chance that there's something wrong with it.

      People generally don't sell games because there's something wrong with them, so except in a few extreme cases this shouldn't affect games.

  85. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by mqduck · · Score: 1

    Do we not understand the very simple concept of supply and demand?

    I already made this point above, so I'll cut it short. Freely- or practically freely-explicable commodities break supply and demand because, once initial development is paid for, supply becomes unlimited. If "because that is what the market will pay" is the entire story then it, in fact, has nothing to do with supply and demand.

    --
    Property is theft.
  86. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by mqduck · · Score: 1

    Damn me for not proof-reading. That should be "freely-replicable".

    --
    Property is theft.
  87. Distribution costs by wesslen · · Score: 1

    It's important to not overlook the overhead required for successful product distribution. You need an entire branch/ sector to make sure the product arrives everywhere it needs to on time, gets placed on the right shelves. The company needs to pay salaries and benefits for a group of employees who manage this. Although the physical product and packaging might be cheap to produce, making sure it is properly distributed and keeping store inventories stocked is more difficult than one might think. While it might only cost $10 to ship a case of games, maintaining the relationship with retailers and knowing where to ship the games costs a lot. Digital distribution will help cut these costs and should hopefully reduce prices (although publishers are evil and probably won't pass the savings on to consumers).

  88. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by mqduck · · Score: 1

    Nobody said things are created for free, just that the logic of supply and demand doesn't work. If a brand new game was developed for every person who bought one, then it would work.

    --
    Property is theft.
  89. The most I ever paid for a game at retail was... by hardboiled.tequila · · Score: 1

    AU$150 for Street Fighter II Turbo on the SNES. That was back in '93-'94. So anything less than that is a bargain!

  90. Profit Margins by TheSync · · Score: 1

    Electronic Arts pre-tax profit margin -25.2%

    Either they are selling games at too high a price to sell enough, or they are not charging enough for the games they are selling, because they aren't making a profit!

    Ubisoft net profit margin 6.5%

    Not much profit...

    Nintendo net profit margin 15%.

    Of course, they actually make physical things as well (Wii).

  91. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Dan541 · · Score: 1

    Does this even need to be discussed? Are we really that retarded with our understanding of economics? Do we not understand the very simple concept of supply and demand?

    Try explaining that to the RIAA.

    --
    An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  92. Expensive games encourages piracy by norite · · Score: 1
    I have a nice little side hobby, repairing broken Xbox 360 consoles (RROD, e74, usual stuff). It's been interesting hobby, taken them apart and making them better, i.e. actually fixing the inherent design flaws. Also nice since I've been making a bit on the side. :)

    But..... SOOOOOOOO many people have been asking me to flash their drives as part of the repair, or telling me they need the console repairing coz the drive has been flashed and they don't want to buy a new unit and all they have are copies. It's been quite an eye opener....everybody's at it, and the answer is always the same : Games are too expensive, DL DVD's are much cheaper....

    I have to admit, I NEVER buy new games, because I feel that they're simply not worth the money they are charging for them. I always buy second hand games for less than half price. Oh, and no, I don't have any copied games....

    People. Catch a wake up. You are selling your games for far, far, far more than people (That's your market) think they are worth. DROP YOUR PRICES. You'll:

    a) Sell more games.

    b) Make more money due to increased volume.

    c) Reduce the piracy that you are so concerned about.

    Quit being a part of the problem, and start being a part of the solution.

    The music and film industry need to come to the same conclusions....the products they sell are worth a *lot* less than they think they are.

    --
    -- Fuck Beta
    1. Re:Expensive games encourages piracy by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >People. Catch a wake up. You are selling your games for far, far, far more than people (That's your market) think they are worth. DROP YOUR PRICES. You'll:
      >
      >a) Sell more games.
      >
      >b) Make more money due to increased volume.
      >
      >c) Reduce the piracy that you are so concerned about.

      I think you underestimate the sophistication and breadth of the market research that demonstrates otherwise to the people who make these decisions.

      It is often the case, and certainly the case in my (completely different) industry, that lowering prices on certain classes of product can adversely affect sales.
      This is a counterintuitive proposition, I realize, but it is true.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  93. Gaming journalism. by Yaos · · Score: 1

    They raised the cost of games to $60 today, we have always paid $60 for games. I've heard they will lower the price to $50, which is a $10 savings and a real deal. Games have never cost $50.

  94. Funny thing is... by danwesnor · · Score: 1

    ...the cost of getting your yard mowed in my neighborhood jumped from $50 to $60 the day the X-Box 360 was released.  I guess teenage boys are too single-minded to know about sales tax.

    <oldfart>In my day, we had to mow 10 lawns to get an Atari cartidge.</oldfart>

  95. Repeat After Me by Hercules+Peanut · · Score: 1

    Price is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.
    Price is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.
    It's not that hard and it does not apply solely to video games.

  96. Soviet Hollywood say vcr evil you! by sowth · · Score: 1

    You can call it a "rental licensing" fee, but everyone had to pay it. In fact, during the beta vs vhs period, they charged hundreds of dollars for tapes (more than a thousand for some). I know because I wanted to buy some, but as a kid I could not even remotely afford it.

    Remember, Hollywood didn't like "evil" video tapes and tried to sue various companies out of business for it. Just like they tried to get rid of the "evil" internet, though their strategy there was more to replace it with their controlled version of the internet.

  97. Don't forget inflation by AdamHaun · · Score: 1

    It's important to take inflation into account when looking at price increases over a 10-20 year time span. According to MeasuringWorth, $60 today was ~$55 in 2005, ~$45-48 in 2000, ~$38-42 in 1995, and ~$35 in 1990. So prices might have gone up, but not that much.

    Ignoring inflation is a very common error in stories about spending, probably because it's an error that makes the story more exciting.

    --
    Visit the
  98. no complains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so windows 7 OS is a fair price compare to these game prices....
    just dont buy anything

  99. Desperation by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

    Games cost 60$ (70€) because had they remained at 50$ (60€) the publishers would not have been able to show any growth to their shareholders. They keep making roughly the same games, appealing to the same audience and thus don't have any customer growth. In the past that was not an issue as the population was growing and despite appealing only to the same percentage of people (30% of households had a console, that number remained the same from the NES to the PS2) they got automatic growth. Now the population growth is slowing or even reversing in many countries so the number of customers is no longer increasing. In order to maintain revenue growth the publisher must wring more money out of the existing customers so they come up with higher prices, DLC and such while talking about the evils of piracy and used sales in a desperate attempt to explain to their shareholders that there are still growth opportunities that don't require changing the games themselves to appeal to new people.

    Meanwhile Wii games stayed at 50$ (dropped to 50€) because the Wii can afford to do that, it's increasing the customer numbers drastically and selling to many households that were not interested in the games available before (at least the last few generations, they may actually have had 8 bit systems) so they don't have to wring more money out of each individual customer.

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  100. Re:Price Drops - off topic by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

    The point that most people miss with lotteries is the potential they have to change your life. A standard risk of $2 on a lottery may for that insignificant amount of money, permanently change your life. While the odds are stacked massively against you, the small risk for the massive reward and the potential for lifelong effects can overwhelm the actual % chance of return.

  101. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Supply of a game, not supply of games.

  102. Entertainment costs by slashdotjunker · · Score: 1

    Here is an informal pricing of common geek entertainment choices converted into dollars per hour at prices that I typically encounter in California. Important note: not all options are equal value. This is just a pricing guide, not a direct comparison.

    Disneyland for 6 hours = $11 per hour
    Museum, 3 hours = $6.66 per hour
    Movie Theatre = $5 per hour
    Computer game for 10 hours = $5 per hour
    Premium Cable TV @ 2 hr/day = $1.66 per hour
    Netflix, 5 movies per month = $0.90 per hour
    Cable TV @ 2 hr/day = $0.83 per hour
    Sci-Fi book read twice @ 1 min/page = $0.80 per hour
    Good computer game for 100 hours = $0.50 per hour
    World of Warcraft @ 2 hr/day = $0.25 per hour
    5 minute song played 50 times = $0.24 per hour
    Good Sci-Fi book read 20 times @ 1 min/page = $0.08 per hour
    Good 5 minute song played 500 times = $0.02 per hour

  103. We screwed ourselves over by duiu · · Score: 1

    It actually started around the time Halo 2 came out. Developers came up with the idea of the "Limited Edition" that came with some extra junk for $10 more than the standard $50 price at the time. So in the year or so between Halo 2 and the Xbox 360, a few of the bigger titles (At the moment I can't remember any others, but they were there) also released "Limited Edtion" versions. And for some reason people bought those. So the publishers realized that people would spend more than $50 on a game, and jacked up the price to $60 starting. EGM ran an article about this in late 2005, or early 2006. Not sure which.

  104. Try living in New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Visit New Zealand.... New Release game titles tend to come in at $129.99 nowadays, especially on consoles. A second-hand game might cost $60 at a store like EB.... if you're lucky.
    Thus, we are thankful for Steam.

  105. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The bit people want to pay for are not in infinite supply.

  106. Re:greatest hits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep. I only buy greatest hits/platinum hits games, because I'm not willing to shell out $60 for a game.

    The last two I bought were Crackdown (found online for $10 including free shipping) and Assassin's Creed ($30). They weren't the best games I've ever played, but they were worth what I paid for them. :)

    Now I can't wait for AC2, except I know I'll have to wait a year after they release it for the price to come down. :(

  107. Re:Extra! Extra! Read here for the scoop! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even basic economics should have taught you that things become more complex when dealing with luxury goods...

  108. Production Cost by dimmps12 · · Score: 1

    I think video games cost more generation due to high production cost to develop the games, but game prices should drop soon for the holiday season.

    1. Re:Production Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's it

  109. Good point, but... by nobodyman · · Score: 1

    Aren't those diametrically opposed? Not that they can't coexist, but they each seem to support opposite sides. With zero trade-in value, a digital purchase is a vote for higher net prices. World of Warcraft and Madden are both proof that you can charge people hundreds of dollars for a game, as long as you are clever.

    Well, for the sake of simplicity let's exclude recurring cost games like WoW and Madden, and limit our discussion to one-time purchases.

    Though trade-in's is different than digital distribution, I think from the consumer's perspective they are trying to achieve a lower price. The vast majority of trade-in money goes towards the purchase of another title, thus offsetting the cost; and digitally distributed games come in (typically) at a lower price in the first place. Either way, it's a lower price (perhaps not a better value per se, but mentally it's a lower number in the consumer's head).

    You bring up good points, but I still think that game prices are due for a "market adjustment". The market has a good way of establishing "true value". When the wii first came out, the "official" price was $250 but you could easily sell it for $350-400 on ebay. Similarly I think that you have a segment of consumers who will only buy a game once it comes into the neighborhood of $20-$40 USD.

    1. Re:Good point, but... by J-1000 · · Score: 1

      I just think we don't have enough information to decide if A-list titles really need to be dropping their prices. Left 4 Dead's results are interesting, but without a way to test different prices under the exact same conditions, we're taking educated guesses. So the game sold a lot of copies when the price was reduced. So what? It was a recent game, and it was given a temporary price reduction; of course people are going to be jumping on the deal. The question is whether the company makes more money in the long run, and I can't think of a good way to test that since you only get one shot at it.

      I forget all the marketing terms I learned in college, but here's one thing to consider: If everyone lowers their price, then public perception will shift. Suddenly $40 will seem expensive for a new game, and $30 will become the new $40. You won't necessarily see game sales rocket on a broad scale, because there's a limit to the amount of media an individual person is willing to ingest. It's a big mind game and if there's a science to it, I don't see it.

  110. Some games are worth it, some not... by Spadez · · Score: 1

    In my opinion, some games that I have played such as Metal Gear Solid 4, Call Of Duty, Grand Theft Auto and etc, are well worth the $60+ price tag. I feel if its a really good game that actually took a considerable amount of hard work and time to create than there is no problem with $60, considering the price of other things we pay for today like $10 for movie tickets, $20 for DVDs, $15 CDs...

  111. Console Maker's Influence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Console manufacturer's have a significant impact on the pricepoint, and the article fails to really explore this. Developers are bound by the contract they make with the console maker, it's there platform, they control it.

    In general the console maker takes up to 25 - 35% off the SKU, generally a minimum of $10. One reason PC titles are cheaper. I vaguely remember this from several sources including a discussion I had with staff from Rockstar. Contrary to what someone else noted here, I've never heard of the console maker taking 50%.

    This is how console makers earn their profit even after taking severe losses on system purchases. And don't forget all those reports that asseses the manufacturing & component costs and show the manufacturer making a loss, neglect to cover corporate overhead, R&D, marketing, shipping, packaging, returns, etc. Nonetheless, the fees they earn per game sold can allow for substantial profit in the long run. During PS2's peak, 80% of Sony's worldwide profit came from the PS2 division. As PS2 usage delclined, Sony's earnings plummeted.

    Similarly in film, you don't have just the production costs which have now risen to approximately $200 million for tentpole event films, but P&A (Prints & Advertising). Those costs are usually $50 to $100 million extra in North America alone. Plus those weekly box office takes don't account for the theater share (which is usually tiered, so the studio earns more at opening weekend, as much as 90%, a reason why concession prices are so high, that's where theaters really make their profit). This is why DVD's were so important to studios. At the peak of DVD sales, Hollywood was making 4 times more money on DVD sales/rentals (24 billion one year) than they were on North American box office, $100 million plus for a tentpole film's first week on DVD. This was mostly profit as Hollywood unions took less on DVD's, hence the guild strikes. Also why the comparison of the games industry earning more money than Hollywood was absolutely ludicrous. Hollywood is much more than just the North American Box Office.

    With GTA 4's production budget apparently running up to $100 million, the development/publisher costs plus the console makers fee could prove problematic for the next generation of games...

  112. Royalty per copy of games vs. movies by tepples · · Score: 1

    So why can I buy DVDs from $5 to $20?

    ShadowRangerRIT listed a few reasons. I'll add another: The "manufacturing costs" include a royalty to the patent holders and console certificate authorities. The royalty to MPEG-LA and other interested parties for a DVD-Video disc is much less than the royalty to, say, Nintendo for a Wii disc.

  113. Starcraft RVs by tepples · · Score: 1

    The only way I'd pay $60 for a game is if the title starts with Starcraft.

    Even if it were a camping simulator? Or what about four copies of a $15 game for your LAN?

  114. Bargain bin online multiplayer problem by tepples · · Score: 1

    Don't rely entirely on the bargain bin if you enjoy online multiplayer. The publisher is likely to have already shut off the matchmaking server before you open the shrinkwrap. Sony has been known to do this; I buy a game from the bargain bin, start it up, and get "DNAS Error -103: This software title is not in service."

  115. Cost comes from consumer value, not production by dumky · · Score: 1

    The cost of things comes from how much consumers are willing to pay, not how much it costs to make. An illustration of this is that man go to much effort to find pearls because they are valuable. They are not valuable because of the effort. In terms of how much profits are justified, any profit is justified. If they were not justified (usually by risk and uncertainty), then more people would shift to this field and compete (thus lowering profits).

  116. my 2 cents on the prices by neitzelm · · Score: 1

    I think if more games go to downloadable versions online, the price should drop. This basically eliminates the middle man and the profits go basically straight to the game company. It's been going more this way with PC games because well it's a lot easier to download and install it right to your computer than for instance a PS3 game where you would probably have to burn a DVD and then use that disk to play the game. With most consoles using the internet for online interaction you could probably download the games off the console itself. I'm not sure if they already do this but it'd be a great way to keep prices lower, maybe in the 40 dollar range. When it comes down to it though, paying $60 for a game isn't that extreme, people just need to make sure they're buying the games they really want. People need to do more research on the games they're looking at and maybe even go rent it before actually purchasing it. That's just my 2 cents.

  117. It can't raise much higher, piracy is an issue. by ryanoconnor98 · · Score: 1

    I'd have to say that I agree with Hal Halpin (president and founder of the Entertainment Consumers Association). Because of the developing technology, such as subscriptions to GameFly©, or downloadable games through XBOX Lives© new dashboard. I believe that we will most likely see a stand still of $59.99 for games, if not a slight price drop because of competition between publishers/developers and these subscription services that allow you to download or simply rent games for a cheaper price. In addition, one thing that publishers need to take into consideration when determining a price, is piracy. If prices continue to rise too greatly, then you could see an incline in people copy or pirating games. This could lead to revenue drops for these game companies and thus, they'd be loosing more money then they hoped to gain.

    1. Re:It can't raise much higher, piracy is an issue. by lawmatt1 · · Score: 1

      here here!!

  118. It's not piracy as much as justification by kwolek · · Score: 1

    It's clear now that Nintendo isn't trying to be powerful as price effective. This being the case, we know they won't be selling for $60 a game until we see what they're trying to do with whatever their new system is. Sony and Microsoft are selling games for $60 because it's a next gen system, so that means they won't raise up until at least the next gen, which I don't think it'll go up much more.

  119. Marketing 101, guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are games at $60? Skimming strategy. Every game is gonna come out at $60 because there are gamers that are hard core about playing THEIR game the moment it comes out, no matter the cost. Developers know this and the fact that demand in the gaming industry is inelastic, so common marketing theory points to making the most profit they can at first. And for those of us who are somewhat more patient, we get sucked in at the $50 or $40 range when the price gets dropped to achieve more penetration pricing, getting to the common gamer. And it also comes down to determining value in the mind of the gamer. If gaming developers and retailers make me believe that I receive more "value" from being able to play Modern Warfare 2 the day it comes out (11/10/09!!!) than the price I pay for it, then I will justify it as a good buy.

    Source: http://www.netmba.com/marketing/pricing/

  120. CDs used to cost $20 by MikeyinVA · · Score: 1

    CDs were $15 - 20 for two decades. It came out that they cost $1 to produce. The music industry pushed the limit on this price for years. Then the bottom fell out and they can't give away CDs now. They were forced to go back to singles (iTunes) for a buck and MP3 albums for $5 online. Go into a music store now, CDs are $8-10 max. And that's new releases. You guys are fools for paying $60 for a game.

  121. Price in â by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dunno if it's been posted before, but here in Europe, the pricetag is rarely less than 70â for new current-gen games. Which is 101$ at the current exchange rate.