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Telco Sues City For Plan To Roll Out Own Broadband
Syngularity writes 'MaximumPC is featuring an article about one broadband provider's decision to sue the city of Monticello, Minnesota after residents passed a referendum to roll out their own fiber optic system. TDS Telecommunications had earlier denied the city's request for the company to provide fiber optic service. During the ensuing legal battle, which prevented the citizens from following through with their plans, TDS Telecommunications took the opportunity to roll out a fiber system.'
Next time the town should be more careful about granting exclusive contracts.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
There are a few roles that government must play. It must provide its citizens protection and a working legal framework. But when the government decides to dabble in providing other services, especially ones in which there already exists private enterprise, there is nothing gained but bureaucracy and government bloat.
Thomas Jefferson must be rolling over in his grave.
Problem solved. Actually I bet just the threat alone would be enough to make TDS fall on its knees and obey the government.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
...to further corporate greed. This is ridiculous, there should have been a "stay", "restraining order", or whatever, to stop either party from building infrastructure until a ruling could be made. At this point I almost hope the city will either reject using the network or sue to rip it up or to gain ownership.
...and have a judge who throws the suit out, on the grounds of it attempting to stifle competition.
Seriously, corporations shouldn't be allowed to do this sort of thing.
This is why I hate the legal system. Lawyers aren't the weak link.
Judges are.
We have 17 year olds, here in Australia, who can kill people, and get 2.5-3 years for it, in a youth training centre. The police do their job. The lawyers do theirs. Every other part of the system works; except the judges.
Unlike most people, I don't have such a big issue with lawyers; because I say to any judge who reads this, that I know where the fault with the system really is. It isn't with them, judges. It's with you.
Indeed Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he new we had public mail service. Oh wait... And of course our socialist fire department.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
This story has been on slashdot before.
The free market works! The solution to all of the USA's problems!
Is there such a thing as a 'local monopoly'? If there isn't, the gov. should just pass a city law against it, then counter-sue the company on those grounds - then give them a choice between shutting up or shipping out.
Yeah, right. So, in government all people are injected with the evil serum, so they only make more useless jobs for themselves and plotting the end to all "free business" (R), and in the big corporations all workers are altruistical avatars of "the Free Spirit of Commerce" (TM), 24/7 caring for welfare of ordinary customer?
Ehhhmm... pass the joint, I want that shit too.
For too long now, fire departments across the United States have been SOCIALIST organizations, resulting in TAXES on the American people.
FACT: Most Americans never use the socialized services of the fire department. We have the best fire departments in the world in the US, but that doesn't mean that anyone (even non-US citizens) should be able to dial up and have fires put out, etc. There are private companies (Halliburtion, Etc.) who could step in tomorrow and take over every fire department in America and charge the consumer directly.
This is AMERICA. NO FREE FIRE SAFETY.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in asbestos and carrying a fire hose."
This is THE new political movement in America. The Birther movement and The Teabagger movement have FAILED. We are The Flamer movement, and we are succeeding at tearing down ALL forms Socialism - starting with our Fire Departments.
Please tell everyone you know about this group.
When it comes to ObamaFireCare, remember, we are: Taxed Enough Already For American Red Truck Socialism.
"This is America. Pay to Spray." - Member Susan Weinberg
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
It appears that TDS sells physical videos that we can buy. Also modems. Steal them. Working together and using our power as consumers we could kill this giant (i.e. bankrupt the corporation), same way we did to Circuit City.
Aside -
These TDS idiots charge $35/month for 750k DSL! Dang. I only pay $15 for mine. TDS is not only dishonest but also greedy.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
What. The. Fuck??????????
Dude, you've got issues.
I used to live in a Tri-City area outside of Chicago. The three towns were going to go in on a municipal internet system that would have provided TV, Phone, Internet, over fiber-optic.
Comcast did a massive advertisement campaign against the system and how if it failed we would foot the bill. They also had techncians out for three weeks straight installing new lines across the town. When it came to vote in my city of the three city's it failed 6000 votes to like 7500 votes, the funny part is, if the 6000 people who voted yes bought into the system and the system lasted for 5 years it would have paid itself and would have become self-sustaining.
Municipality can run water pipes, sewer pipes, and gas pipes.
Please tell me why the Internet pipe is any different from these other pipes.
My company actually did some of the design for this. Now I know why they wanted such a fast turn around time on it.
There is a war going on for your mind.
This doesn't relate to the article, but I can't not respond to the parent.
You're complaining about the youth offenders system in Australia? On /. ? People complaining about short jail sentences, particularly for young offenders was why I had to stop reading the forums on Canadian news sites. Canada and Australia both have extremely low crime rates because the criminal justice system has reasonable sentences, especially for young people. I'm tired of the "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality; it focuses on vengeance rather than prevention.
The role of the criminal justice system is to make streets a safer place, not to make you feel better after crimes have been committed. If you make it impossible for offenders to find jobs or otherwise become part of society again you limit their options and increase the likelihood of a re-offense. Certainly a strong punishment is necessary for the enforcement of laws but longer sentences are not the solution to crime; they're a simple campaign line for politicians because everyone loves to hear it. The only important factor is making sure that the fewest possible crimes occur.
I plan to move to Australia later this year. Don't fuck it up before I get there. (It already seems to be the only developed country with worse internet service than Canada, which makes me sad, although the weather looks better.)
So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
Sheeesh....
has had a municipal fiber-to-the-premises system for the past two years. I doubt I would have been alive long enough to see FIOS rolled out, particularly since the outfit that Verizon dumped^H^H^H^H^H^H sold their landline infrastructure to, Fairpoint, has just filed bankruptcy. Comcast, the only other game in town, has been howling to the state regulators about the sheer UNFAIRNESS of a publically-owned body actually implementing something that they had no intention of providing (in their neverending quest at maximizing shareholder value). Most recently, certain parties (first two guesses don't count) have been agitating to have the city shut down Burlington Telecom over perceived financial malfeasance. After all, it's downright UN-AMERICAN to have such an important piece of infrastructure exist without money flowing into corporate coffers!
ever heard of satire? BTW: Whooossh!
if the city and residents want to really make a point and add insult to financial injury, they should simply ignore TDS' offerings and go ahead and build their own system, making TDS suffer the embarrassment of being screwed over for not taking the town's needs/wishes seriously as well as throwing away however many millions of dollars due to nothing more than ego.
Can you imagine what this country would look like if we had treated paved roads like we have treated much of the rest of our infrastructure (i.e. only allowing private companies to build and maintain them). Does anyone honestly think we would have an interstate system today (or even standardized road signs) if we had followed that model?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
This is not only the finest example of capitalism; it is the finest example of the US in action. Any intelligent person can see why the USians are just a bunch of illiterate lowlife rednecks and niggers(both are the same, just different skin colours), not enough is socialized in the US as the USians back good ol' capitalism, while every other nation other than nations like Somalia are embracing communism or at least socialism. Give the US time and they will fall, especially when petroleum is trading in Euros rather than USian dollars.
Signed,
The Rest of the World
I think I would rather have a fire department paid for by my taxes than having this sort of thing occur:
Nameless person: Help my house is burning down!
Fire department: We can help we take Visa or Mastercard.
Nameless person: Hands the fire department person a Visa.
Fire department: Sorry, that card was denied.
Nameless person: What about my house?
Fire department: Sorry, no pay no spray.
Nameless person watches their house burn down.
Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
what happnes when you dont drive - dont pay for the road and you have a heart attack does the ambalance have to drive cross country because YOU never contributed to a road in your life?
Should someone come and take all the pavement and street lighting etc up at your your house?
... on what grounds TDS sued the town? This is not explained in the article.
This fiber must have been installed somewhere and it must be on public terrain, no? Than why in the world the city have granted the permission for that company to install the fiber? I mean, most telco cable runs in/on public utilities (sewer, terrain, phone pole). They are granted a permission to use it. Why can't it be revoked? Fiber pipe should be public utility. If a company would decide to run water to every house and sue the city for doing so too, would it be more capitalism-correct?
I'm as free market as anybody, but wiring is infrastructure, and I don't have a problem with infrastructure being provided by the government. Let the local government, through the power utility, run fiber optic to everyplace that receives power, unless a private company provides a 100MB connection to the house for less than $20. That 100MB line should have low enough latency to provide live TV and VOIP phone connections. If the private companies won't build a better product than can be provided publicly, they shouldn't expect protection from competition.
as the FraUDulent money traders attempt to position themselves for any event, guess who gets left out of the calculations?
very similar to the last days of nazi germany.
no matter, the lights are coming up all over now, & despite all the plans of the corepirate nazi illuminati, there is no where left to hide.
So what we've learned from this is that if a city wants to get fibre deployment in their area, all they have to do is threaten to do it themselves. Then private companies will fall all over themselves to provide the services immediately.
Yeah, and them free SOCIALIST liberries, to. Gotta get rid of them and get owr libertees back!
The problem with the analogy you imply (That people against federally funded socialist programs are hypocritical because they support the fire department) is a straw man because fire departments are typically funded almost entirely at the local level.
The state offers to pay my father his health insurance as part of his pension. If he takes social security, the federal government will not allow him to collect insurance from NYS that is already paid for. Instead, they will make him go on medicare/medicaid which will cost the federal govt money. In addition, to equal the already paid for services offered by the state, my father will have to pay additional money to buy "supplemental" insurance.
In short, you can be against overaching, terribly managed, short sighted, and rights stealing federal programs and still be in support of smaller, more locally managed programs.
I'm all for low level socialist programs because they are more controllable. I'm against large national/federal ones because they are blight against society where a very select few decide what is best for the whole.
Ah yes, the touchy-feely "pat them on the head and give them a cookie" approach, and everything will be all better. I've got a better idea: drag the little monsters out in the street and shot 'em. Now, you don't have to worry about the poor babies finding jobs when they get out.
Not bloody likely. Counties and States (and Commonwealths :) are already unwilling to raise taxes to pay for the installation of toll roads -- so much so that they are selling private companies the right to operate and profit from new tool roads if the companies will pay for the installation.
So there's no way on Earth that Counties or Cities would raise taxes to pay for installing something like a fiber or copper telecommunications backbone.
You are talking about federal programs and this story is about a town wanting to build its own fiber optic network. This story is about the local level.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Way off topic here, but the reason that 'socialist' fire departments are common now is that the people who were paying for private fire protection saw things like the great fire of London. It's much cheaper to pay for someone at the other end of the street to have their house put out than it is to pay to fix the damage caused (by both the fire and the water) when the fire reaches your house.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
How does killing people who kill other people teach others that killing people is wrong?
"Oh God help us. We're in the hands of engineers."
Are you against parks, roads, post office, etc.?
This public safety distinction is entirely your own. Adam Smith wouldn't support it, neither would the founding fathers.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
I am actually the chairperson of a "Broadband committee" for a city fiber network within a small city in Wisconsin. Charter Communications and Verizon refused to increase services for the city. The city pushed forward with their Broadband initiative and ran a few miles of fiber and ever hooked up a wireless ISP. Before I give the downside, let me tell you the results as of today. Both Charter and Verizon lowered there basic internet speed - 768k/128k (shouldn't count, but its more than the 33.6k dial up available) and have kept the low rates of under $20 w/o contract. Charter upgraded their network and now provides up to 16m/2m options. Verizon tops out at 7m/1.5m. Both ISPs lowered their business rates and have done their best to compete with the city's solution. Now - the ISPs can offer rebates that the city cannot. They can absorb construction costs that the city cannot. They have faster response times than the city's fiber. The reality is city governments are NOT organized enough to competitively run a broadband solution. There is too much red tape (especially in Wisconsin) and decisions cannot be made on the fly. My committee would love to hire a full time ISP manager, but there isn't enough revenue - because the companies that promised to use the city solution, SOLD OUT to the local telco after they dropped the rates and locked them into long term contracts.
The way it works out here is they bill you after.
"Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
I wish this would have been so. The road system in the USA is a complete waste of money and resources. It is also unsustainable. When the oil production starts to decline, "trucking" in food and products from around the world to suburbia will drastically increase in price and eventually will stop in most parts of the country.. Please see "End of Suburbia" for more information.
This is the most funny post I have read about the wingnuts and their search for a cause. You win the internet ... oh wait, that might be anti-Flamer as the internet was built by the government
The get sued for not providing a fiberoptic system. The lawsuit prompts them to put one in to cover their butts, while not allowing the municipality to go forward with a publicly voted referendum to have a 'city system'. Sounds lop sided to me. THEN they have the cahunas to sue the city for trying to put in their own system? Bull! Sounds like a fair market competition to me. The city profits the same as a telcom would. Sounds also like the telcom is about to have a real rough time getting permits to do anything, much less put in fiberoptics. It'll make their costs go up and the city's alternative look better. Somebody here said something about 'shooting themselves in the foot'? Nailed it.
I live in Abingdon, VA. Recently, BVU extended their fiber to the house (FTTH) into my neighborhood. I was the first to have it installed on my street.
10MB service @ $55 monthly after all taxes have been applied. They are competing against Comcast & Embarq (two of my previous ISPs) and Charter & Verizon, and lastly the City of Abingdon itself (both paid fiber and free wireless).
Since I live on the edge of town, I am just outside the Abingdon Wireless Mesh reach, so technically it is not available to me, nor are there any plans to make the eva fiber available any time soon.
Additionally, 3g from Verizon & others are available in the area, depending on which side of which mountain you are in.
Links:
http://www.bbpmag.com/snapshot/snap1002.php
http://www.bvu-optinet.com/templates/default.php
http://www.eva.org/
http://www.abingdon.com/wireless/
So, they're not friends of competition, are they?
50-100 years ago we had this collective dream of free markets, capitalism, solving our problems.
Then, corporations found out that the actual free market is bad for profit margins. Once they grew powerful enough, they started changing the game.
Events like this should have the capitalists and free market supporters up in arms. But it doesn't. Why?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
The judges are charged with instructing the jury on the law. The jury's responsibility is to decide on matters of fact. The judge rules according to the facts decided and in accordance with the laws in effect. The problem is laws.
Why should there ever be a question about whether or not a minor gets tried as an adult?? The punishment should fit the crime whether they are a minor or an adult!!
If you kill people who killed (or attempted to kill) people, there's a 100% probability that they will not commit any felonies again. And as an additional bonus, justice has been served. Because 3 years in a youth-camp for ending someones live is not just. If you think now that an eye for an eye will make the world go blind and therefor capital punishment is to abolish, read this: http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/somebodys-baby/
I can not square the circle enough to get myself thinking, that every person on this planet deserves to live.
Telco Sues Municipality For Laying Their Own Fiber on Friday September 12 2008, @08:28PM http://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/09/12/2326251/Telco-Sues-Municipality-For-Laying-Their-Own-Fiber Your Rights Online: Judge Tosses Telco Suit Over City-Owned Network on Friday October 10 2008, @08:23AM http://yro.slashdot.org/story/08/10/10/1243212/Judge-Tosses-Telco-Suit-Over-City-Owned-Network Telco Appeals Minnesota City's Fiber-Optic Win on Saturday November 08 2008, @11:15AM http://yro.slashdot.org/story/08/11/08/1532237/Telco-Appeals-Minnesota-Citys-Fiber-Optic-Win
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
This is a very familiar story, that we have seen play out with Greenlight in Wilson NC.
FTTP, up to 100 symmetric bandwidth, and the telecoms threw a freaking fit, and did their best to annihilate municipal broadband, and failed to stop it.
Reply to That ||
The Constitution defines the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. All other powers are reserved for the state. Nothing, even in looking at the founding father's writings imply that LOCAL GOVERNMENT cannot compete with private industry. The City of Monticello is not, despite the suprising ignorance shown here this topic, part of the Federal Government.
The City is more then capable of telling you what colors you can paint your house, where you can and cannot plant trees, and so forth. The issue building permits and license everything from the number of dogs you can have to how often you can water your lawn. They also can restrict businesses from opening from granting licenses to zoning requirements.
Cities and Counties and even States run and operate businesses as far back as the 13 colonies. We have Police Depts, Fire Depts, various inspectors (electrical (state), building (city), surveyors (county), assessors, DNR, etc... All of which can be hired in the capacity of a business in the form of permits and special services (Fire dept. will burn a building down for you, police can be hired for security for special events, etc.)
The sheer ignorance and lack of understanding of what the Constitution of the United States actually does is astonishing. The fact that when I was in high school and we were required in social studies to actually read the federalist papers compared to the teachers now that, "that stuff is nothing but a bunch of lies" thank you teachers union in district 622 here in MN speaks on how much misinformation exists on the purpose.
Of course I expect little from my home state now, we've elected a wrestler and now a bad comedian. Perhaps Louie Anderson can run against Frankin... Hell I'd be happy to have KKKKAAAAAHHHHHNNNNNN! KKKKKKKAAAAAHHHHHNNNNNN!!!! tossed out...
For those that do understand the Constitution, kudos for keeping the arguments rooted in reality.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
It's like the electric companies taking the city to court for allowing a band of citizens from using solar panels to get their electricity.
Seriously, they are way too greedy, and need to be reminded how this works. If citizens bought the optic fiber and lay it down at their cost from house to house, to share within their own network , the advantage of using optic fiber, then so be it, how can you say they do not have the right, especially if it was voted on and passed as a bill by the council themselves. They make the rules about what goes into the ground in the city, not the telcom companies.
This type of thing is just wrong. Usually cities want to roll out their own broadband system when there is no competition, and the current service is too expensive, totally sucks, or both. In other words, Telcos/ISPs are trying to stop cities from competing with them. HMMM...anti-competitive practices...monopolistic companies trying to maintain a monopoly in an area...isn't this what M$()and other companies) are in trouble for?
Both government and corporations need to be reminded that corporations/businesses do NOT have rights! Only INDIVIDUALS have rights.
umm hello?
The article is about a city, Monticello, that did exactly what you claim that there is "no way on Earth" a city would do.
"His name was James Damore."
Next time the town should be more careful about granting exclusive contracts.
Exclusive deals usually go sour before the ink is dry. It's not a new problem and if it were easily solved, it would be solved by now. Here's the obligatory quote summing up the problem:
It's tenacity probably owes something to shortcomings in human nature and the inability of society to self-correct in those areas.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The reasons against capital punishments are far simpler than you think:
1) The way it is done usually is far more costly (and that does not even count wasting the massive investment a society puts just getting someone to adulthood, particularly with a good education)
2) All methods seem to be rather cruel, despite claims to the contrary
3) You _will_ end up killing innocents. Lots of them. A government that is routinely involved in killing innocents in my eyes has very little justification for judging others. Few people would support murders as judges, but that's essentially what death sentences imply in a non-perfect world.
Wow...I guess it's up to the citizens of Monticello to poke the telco in the eye again, and boycott their service for being dweebs.
My available options for broadband in my home?
Comcast and TDS.
And yes, I get better customer service from Comcast. Which should tell you something about TDS.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
I'm not too sure about that.
I seem to remember a NatGeo show about prison in Australia. The majority of inmates were back in prison for another crime after being released. Rehab doesn't seem to be any more effective there.
As far as actual crime goes, Australia has a very low rate for gun crimes. Having said that, they apparently are near the top of the list (Top 5) for Assault, Burglary, Rape and overall percentage of citizens victimized.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/as-australia/cri-crime&all=1
This assumes the mentioned site is on the up-and-up. I'm not aware of any bias from that site, but I'm sure someone will happily point it out if there is.
http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/ctappub/0906/opa081928-0602.pdf
If that don't learn'em, just kill'em.
Well if killing were always wrong, you'd have a point, but there are times where its justified.
Personally, I think its a great way to deal with the dregs of society; eliminate the ones causing problems, and you'll only be left with people who aren't causing problems.
when you have a heart attack the ambulance service pays the road tax and you pay the ambulance service. riding in an ambulance is not free but by paying the ambulance service you pay for the road usage. so he is still correct because he is paying to use it.
And the minute they tried to actually get started, a big ugly bully sues the crap out of them and brings things to a screeching halt, tying them up in court long enough to beat them to the punch.
The lawsuit was nothing more than one racer lobbing a bucket of oil in front of the leader's tires. If the judge gets wind of what the telco was doing while the city was tied up in court I hope he slaps them HARD.
You'd think that in a legal dispute like this the telco would have been facing an injunction not to be messing with the fiber itself.
I don't have an account here, mostly just read. But wanted to comment on your post as I found it enlightening. I live in Canada and have never been nor ever met anyone who has been victim of a crime. So I don't think about the justice system too often. But your points on re-offenders based on the justice system intended to be used for prevention rather than vengeance is a paradigm shift for me.
I'll be sure to share your arguments with others if it comes up in conversation. Good post.
Judges dont do that. They tend to ignore what companies do and let them profit from breaking the law.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I hate how 'vengeance' has become a dirty word; and yet if you have been the victim of a crime, surely it is a basic human need. If you don't factor it into the sentence, you will just encourage vigilantism.
Light Yagami, is that you?
If they lost a number of law suites, I take it they'd be liable for costs. Presumably there wasn't a business case for building the network in the first place. And finally, no one thinks the better of TDS for the these events.
How much did this cost TDS and did anyone in a decision making position loose their job?
umm, that's exactly what the cities did.
they issued municipal bonds, or basically used taxpayer dollars to install something for the taxpayer. You know, like they do when they fix up roads, etc.
TFA sucks and sucks hard. Ars Technica has a far better article. The suit is over, it started two years ago and the telco lost.
Free Martian Whores!
At least public roads are directly funded by those who use them (drivers).
Public roads are typically funded by developers or by public bonds. They are paid off by their share of gas taxes, by tolls, or by the homeowners.
In this case the public road would have been paid for by the users, through broadband access fees which would have paid off the bonds.
Moreover, (and I'm getting more off topic) disease is a lot like fire. America will probably get a single payer health insurance plan after a plague does for health care what the London fire did for firefighting.
There's a chapter about this in "Freakonomics" by Dubner and Levitt, where they run the numbers and point out that legalizing abortion and putting more cops on the streets has done more to lower the crime rate than any number of executions per year ever will.
--Obyron
Here is the fun part.
Answer this: You need to increase taxes because your budget does not support all the money you pay out.
The problem: The citizens do not want more taxes and are vocal about it.
Solution : Threaten to close fire stations, police sub stations, lay off nurses in schools.
Guess what, I don't want to be beholden to my local, state, or Federal government, for all services because they use them as a club to condition our behavior. Atlanta did just this recently. Closed these stations and such instead of ditching cronies and dead weight. So instead of budgeting properly they did by threat; they even carried it out.
So, when people bring up the fire department analogy I like to show the real dark side of that.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
When I had to take an ambulance ride after a mountain biking accident, the bill was nearly nearly $3000, before insurance. I say that covers it.
Gone!
Topic Should state "Town Gets Fiber Network by Threatening to Build Fiber Network"
Did you miss the part where they would lease the fiber to telcos and ISPs? It's called a long term investment. The fiber is going to pay for itself in the long run whether the telcos and ISPs lease it and offer services or if the local municipal offers services.
Plus if the municipal owns the fiber, they can make sure that monopolies don't occur and that every provider that wants in can. If a telco or ISP owns the fiber, they can price the competition out of business with high fiber lease fees.
I live in Dallas with TWC. $120 for a triple play is competitive. I think a little lower than what TWC is offering after the first couple months special. Without comparing the TV lineup though, Greenlight internet is much better (7/1 versus 10/10).
The role of the criminal justice system is to make streets a safer place, not to make you feel better after crimes have been committed.
No.
The role of the criminal justice system is justice. Justice is retribution: Punish those who do evil, and in measure to the evil done. Focus on deterrence, rehabilitation, or any other goal weakens justice and is a hazard to society.
What do you base that on? From what I've seen legal systems have been unduly rough with some companies, like Microsoft, to the degree that they appear to be using law suits as cash grabs. I see no motivation for judges "tending" on the side of companies. Perhaps you have some examples to the contrary?
Well if killing were always wrong, you'd have a point, but there are times where its justified.
It's justified only when it's the only option. It is never the only option for dealing with a criminal.
aka TEAFARTS
Should someone come and take all the pavement and street lighting etc up at your your house?
It's interesting that you should ask. In my neighborhood (and, in my experience, every neighborhood I've seen developed in the last 25 years), the pavement and street lighting weren't installed by the city -- they were installed by the developer. Part of the purchase price of my house was the cost of creating the roads, sidewalks, storm drains, and other infrastructure.
In fact, in all the recent (again, younger than 25 years or so) neighborhoods around here, there are no street lights, per se. Each resident is required to keep lit a 75-watt bulb in their front yard, on their own electric bill.
So, at least in this part of the world (central Illinois), the government has already given up investing in new streets and new street lighting.
Yeah that was the dead give away it was a joke. Can't believe how many fell for it.
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/12/2326251
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
I agree with the author of the article linked by the GP that the best possible way to resolve a murder case is for the intended victim to kill the attacker.
That is ridiculous. The problem isn't that gas taxes, etc, are being diverted to other uses - it's that general revenue is being diverted to building and maintaining roads. Per the University of Iowa: "On average, states raise 38% of their road funds from fuel taxes and 22% from vehicle registration fees." So only about 60% of the cost of roads comes from actual user fees. The rest is subsidized from general revenue.
At least, not in general. Most states only cover about 60% of the costs of building and maintaining roads through user fees (gas taxes, tolls, registration fees). The rest is subsidized from general revenue. In VA, it's killing us - the money from general revenue isn't there anymore, so VDOT has an enormous backlog of repair work that just isn't getting done.
Which court was rough on Microsoft? I know there have been some scary sounding decisions handed down, but then the courts wimp out in the penalty phase and basically make Microsoft pay a file equivalent to about 1% of their earnings. Which court has really slapped Microsoft around in a way that really hurt them?
I could tell you about American Alarm in Orange County, CA who writes contracts seemingly with 1 length filled into a blank on the front but then a blanket 5 year term overriding on the back.
They have this fat, ugly, semi-female "non-lawyer" (I wrote that for her benefit since she routinely scours the internet looking for negative news about American Alarm so that she can bully sites into cleaning it up... Hi, you ugly piece of crap that was obviously raped as a child to do what you do and look like you look!)
Anyway, she sits at small claims court all day every day suing all their customers to get money for service they never provided and obtained through fraudulent means and the court backs them up, all day, every day in a complete travesty of justice...
How's that?
As I understand it when Telcom services were deployed across the country, providers were given "regional monopolies" as rewards for investing in the infrastructure needed to bring cable and internet to their area. I don't have any details on this and I believe it would be for a limited time. Also this sort of "regional monopoly" only exists until a competitor comes along. Perhaps TDS Telecommunications feels they are entitled to all of the Internet business in the area at the fees they choose to set. That may explain part of the motivation to sue.
Umm, yeah, we don't need them. Volunteer fire departments are more efficient and don't bankrupt cities with the longstanding obligations they create, as they have in California, and now in Houston.
When I had a house fire a few months ago, the first truck on the scene was from a volunteer fire department, and they got there something like 3 minutes after 911 was called. Damn efficient, and at no cost to the taxpayer.
I wonder who they got that idea from ;-)
Well I was specifically thinking about the EU case, which I suppose is a little unfair for this US-centric conversation. But in summary, Microsoft was fined 500 million Euros ($800 million) which was I believe the largest fine anywhere ever at the time, certainly the largest ever in Europe. They were also forced to change some of the things in Windows, to offer competitors products when installing and so on. People will argue about how much this really "hurt" Microsoft, but it seems a fairly significant ruling to me, certainly more than a slap on the wrist.
Killing people before they can do anything whatsoever will prevent them from future crime, true.
Judge Death, from 2000AD, had a simple argument to this effect: Crime is committed by the living. Kill all of the living and you eliminate all crime.
Please explain how this is relevant. Untreated fires burn down entire cities.
Here is how to privatize fire departments successfully...
If you buy fire protection for $20 a year, then they'll extinguish your burning house for free.
If you do NOT buy fire protection, then they'll extinguish your burning house, and then send you a bill for $7000.
Naturally, homeowners' associations will make it mandatory, but that isn't necessary.
This solution is so simple, and with all the correct incentives in place. In fact the solution is so easy that you MUST be either stupid or dishonest (or both) to not see it.
FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
I plan to move to Australia later this year. Don't fuck it up before I get there. (It already seems to be the only developed country with worse internet service than Canada, which makes me sad, although the weather looks better.)
I'm there now, a great country. The internet isn't that bad if you know where to look. You can get slow unlimited 512/512 but with NO limits on use, explicit or implied. Or ADSL2 with 150GB of transfer for $70. It's a matter of shopping around.
How do you kill that which has no life?
You do know how big the infrastructure debt is, right? It is $57 billion in Canada. Ottawa collects about $5 billion each year in gas taxes, which are higher than the USA. That's not enough to maintain the existing infrastructure, and the infrastructure debt is forecast to balloon to $110 billion by 2027.
Basically that means that, we can't afford to maintain our roads and bridges as is, and one day we'll either have to raise taxes, or do with less.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
in 1984 that is
The role of the criminal justice system is repression. Justice is retribution: Punish those who do evil, and in measure to the evil done. Focus on deterrence, rehabilitation, or any other goal weakens repression and is a hazard to society.
There, much more accurate
Dregs of society? Hell yeah! Add the Jews to the list too? Hell yeah! What about the blind, they're no good to anyone? Yeah, add them to the list too. Any generic part of society I can't stand? Put them at the top of the list.
Fucking prick.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
You do realize that roads deteriorate even when not regularly in use, right? Because I believe that is what GP's point was.
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
Fun thing: Crassus, the third man who ran Rome during the Caesar-Pompey-Crassus triumvirate, made his wealth that way; he bought the land for a joke sum, and if the person declined, his firefighters just didn't do a thing.
That and the quote - no wingnut would ever paraphrase that sentence.
Though it's clear the parent was meant to be a parody, it was about a year ago that a guest appeared on a drive-time program on KGO810 who advocated, among other things, EXACTLY WHAT YOUR POST PROPOSES. He said (with a perfectly straight face when challenged by the host) that all fire departments should be subscription-based, like insurance companies.
If your house is on fire, and you haven't paid your bill, this guy said very specifically that your house should be allowed to burn to the ground. Doesn't matter if the fire truck is right around the corner, if you don't pay, they don't spray.
Remember, this wasn't some nobody from the deep Ozarks here, this was a guest on a drive-time program on arguably the biggest talk-radio station in the country. People like this exist.
"Just pass a law against [the monopoly]," Lord help us. Unless the government has set up the monopoly by process, the monopoly can't exist by definition: "monopoly" in this context meaning "an exclusive privilege to conduct this service, granted by government authority." I.e., it was a stupid government process which created the monopoly in the first place! And you want to cure that by more government process? Sure, I've got this great bridge to sell you.
So there are only two possibilities in this case:
1) The corporation does not have a legally protected monopoly, in which case there is nothing legally to prevent another corporation, or the government, from competing. If no other corporation wants to compete, the government is free to obtain the desired result by taking the initiative.
2) The corporation does have a legally protected monopoly, in which case the government has already acted stupidly, and it is going to be difficult to rectify, because of existing guarantees.
My read of the story is that case 1 is the situation in effect in the case being discussed. All that is required is for a judge to throw out the patently baseless lawsuit, and the municipality to proceed, preferably with their middle finger raised. So they will end up with two competing providers. So what? There is then no story; just an object lesson.
Strange how the lessons of history are ignored. The same problems we are having with broadband roll out in the States and the importance to the economy, is so close to what the rail roads where like around 1880. Massive monopolies with their hand in to everything including telecommunications.
Living in Chile
When it comes to ObamaFireCare, remember, we are: Taxed Enough Already For American Red Truck Socialism.
TEA FARTS ?
I think you are afflicted with some rather unfortunate misconceptions about the criminal nature of Australia. Permit me to enlighten you.
I recently lived in the Victorian suburb of Sunbury, from mid 1995 to Febuary of this year. The first house we lived in, in this suburb, had been used by the most recent prior tenants as a marijuana factory. The prior tenant of the third and last house I occupied in the suburb, was also a drug dealer.
In December of last year, I had an attempted home invasion and the roof of my house set fire to, in two seperate incidents, both within the same weekend, and an attempted mugging at the railway station opposite the house on Christmas Day. Five weeks later, I then had my steel mailbox thrown through my bedroom window, causing me to wake up in a bedroom covered in broken glass.
In 1997, in the same suburb, I was throttled (not fatally, thankfully) while walking back from a local service station one night, not long after I had also been witness to a rape occurring in a nearby carpark. There was another incident in 2000 where an individual displayed a concealed, sawnoff shotgun to myself and some friends, although fortunately nobody was injured.
Judging by the responses to my initial post, gun crime seems to be the only form that at least some Americans focus on. By that metric, yes, Australia might seem like a safe place to live. Firearms have been made sufficiently illegal here that they are difficult to obtain.
However, if you think the absence of guns alone makes the country safe, think again. What Australia (particularly Victoria) *does* have, is a very strong, fundamental culture of anti-intellectual, racist, homophobic, drug and alcohol-influenced group violence.
It is becoming virtually impossible to turn on the evening news in Victoria now, without hearing about numerous incidents of the most appalling violence. Recently we had the body of a woman found stuffed in a barrel in Docklands, and on the same day, another headline described an incident the previous night where a Melbourne bar had entirely erupted into violence. Police were particularly shocked about the fact that literally anything which came to hand was used as a weapon; bottles, tables, chairs, anything.
Melbourne's liquor licensing law is currently under review, due to the epidemic of late night and early morning, alcohol fuelled group violence. Just a few days ago we also had a rap concert here where almost the entire audience became part of a brawl, and we have recently had a large number of severe bashings of Indian immigrants, as well.
You are not going to be migrating to a safe country. You are going to be migrating to a country where it is becoming impossible to go to an innercity bar at night, without virtually patron in said bar becoming involved in brawls, to the point where some venues are now not allowed to use glass bottles or drinking vessels of any kind, because of the risk of their being used as weapons.
You are going to be moving to a country which calls itself multicultural, but where in the city at least, it is not safe to not have white skin.
You are going to be moving to a country where intellectualism is not part of the resident culture, and intelligence is not valued. You are moving to a country where, for the common person, the primary industries are housing construction, or if you're lucky, hospitality. If you're planning on working in IT, I hope you're already qualified, because if you're not, you won't be getting training unless you're willing to pay through the nose for it.
You are going to be moving to a country where, in the cities at least, it is no longer safe for a person to live in a house alone. Another of our recent crimes involved a 60 year old schizophrenic man who had his house broken into, and who was then doused in petrol (yes, the man, not his house) and set alight by a group of 17 year olds. When the police asked the youths what they were doing, the reply was that they were just out having a bit
In words/theory maybe, but in practice it has a few implementation issues.
If it is a murder case the intended victim is the victim and due to being dead has a hard time killing anyone.
If the victim isn't dead, it is hard to know that the attacker intended to kill the victim/would have done so in quite a few cases.
Unless all you mean is having a death sentence that is executed by the victim. Even if you assume that one is still alive, this means in addition to being attacked, the victim now has to decide if he/she/it is convinced that the person they are supposed to kill is indeed the attacker, whether or not he should die etc. which in some people I think can cause another serious trauma in addition.
So from that perspective, I think that solution completely falls flat on the "protecting the weakest" idea, and to exaggerate a judicial solution that works only really well for the strongest seems a bit pointless...
And that doesn't even account for what to do in case the "victim" ended up killing someone innocent...
If it isn't clear, the argument that death sentences are bad hinges in large part on the fact that a prison sentence isn't final and to some degree can be "undone".
Or if you look at it from a "security system" perspective, if you do it properly and people wrongly imprisoned get compensated it means that those responsible for wrongly imprisoning someone will pay a penalty in case of a prison sentence, whereas killing someone innocent comes at no immediate cost (the best you could do is introduce a compensation for the relatives, which comes with all kinds of other issues and also may discourage the relatives from disclosing evidence until after that innocent was killed) and actually reduces the risk of it being found out.
Or spoken differently: death sentences possibly inherently have the perverse effect of encouraging applying it to innocents which prison sentences have not or not to the same degree.
You did the maths behind that then? Y'know, figured the average number of fires vs the average cost of putting them out, found a happy little break even point on the population of your community there? Of course taking into account variations in fire seasons, cost of equipment purchase vs maintenance, etcetc. Not to mention all the costs involved when your house burns down will often enough lead to bankruptcy-- making it awful hard for your private fire department to collect that $7000.
...unless of course I just fell for a fantastic troll. In that case, Bravo! You had me at "homeowner's association" :)
"Simple Solutions" are easy enough to invent. Go ahead and implement it though, looks like you've got a sound business plan.
+1 Disagree
And most cities have privatized ambulances anyway
I have fiber already, through my electric company. Just installed this morning.
It's working great. Does Telephone, TV and Internet.
Thank you Electric Power Board. Thank you.
Goodbye Comcast, Goodbye!
because here is how it would work on practice:
--you buy you insurance for 20$
--your house burn and they extinguish the fire
--they bill you for 7000$ anyway because your fire was not covered according to the contract (too bad you forgot to read the fine print).
I have actually had this very discussion with several [libertarian;restorationist;wingnut]* people I know, particularly as part of a discussion about public health care. They argued several times that private groups DO, in fact, establish and fund private fire services, and that everyone should do the same. They would not be dissuaded from their argument (in particular when confronted with "so when Joe's house burns down because he didn't/couldn't pay for the service and catches yours on fire, you're okay with that?" Response: "But I'll have fire coverage to put out my house.")
They then followed up with insisting that FORCING people to have a health care plan (private, public, or whatever) was completely immoral, wrong, illegal, and a dangerous idea.
* Note: these are not necessarily equal NOR exclusive.
You can make any place sound terrifying by aggregating stories of violent crimes from across the nation. Australia's violent crime rate is moderately higher than Canada on average but still lower than than the U.S.
So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
The problem with privatizing something like fire departments. Let's sat you don't pay for private fire department service and your house is burning down. Do you negotiate the price as your house is burning? If you don't, they might charge more than the house is worth to put out the fire. The catch is, who could bargain for a better deal under these circumstances. This is true for all emergency services.
You are right that the role of the criminal just system is to make the streets a safer place, and that we should focus on rehabilitation and prevention not punishment,
BUT
a large percentage of the people in US jails (at least in California) are gang members. They continue operating in the gangs while in jail, and once they get out, they keep doing illegal gang related activities. Gangs haven't penetrated Canada and Australia the same way they have here.
Qxe4
Dear people bitching about government,
Get a clue.
The government doesn't have a mind of its own, the people you elect to the positions DO.
If you live in America you CAN control the government, you are just too lazy to do so.
Just like corporations do no wrong, they can't, they are not alive.
If you want to fix the problem stop treating these organizations (government and corps) as protection umbrellas for the people operating them. Start actually holding these people responsible.
As long as you let a CEO walk away after screwing people over or polluting the environment because he/she was 'protected under the corparation' then this will continue. You give them a free pass, they'll use it. There are very few people who are qualified for these positions because they will do it 'for the good of the people', and as some citizens realize, the people who will do it 'for the good of the people' don't want anything to do with those jobs because without the bribes and other benefits you can exploit in those positions, the jobs are rather shitty jobs to have.
You can fix this crap with a simple solutions, if you weren't too lazy to look at whos on the ballot rather than checking the box for your favorite team, errrr, political party.
Look at the mess with banking, everyone is upset about these companies paying out huge bonuses and salaries, their excuse is that 'they have contracts with these people', which is funny cause they seemed to ignore all the other contracts they had with the people who invested with them in the first place. Simply make it so in order to get money they have to follow specific rules. If they don't, start putting people in jail, from the CEO all the way down to the accountant who issues the check. EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people can say 'no, I'm not doing it, its wrong'. But they don't, its far easier to just spend my tax dollars and rubber stamp the check than it is to stand up and do the right thing, especially since no one actually holds the people accountable. If you never hold individuals responsible for their actions, theres no reason for them to do the right thing.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
RIGHT ON!
And fuck those fucking socialist public libraries , too!
GOD DAMN that filthy socialist bastard Benjamin Franklin for infecting the U.S. with his "public libraries"!
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
Ah I see. Microsoft apparently needs to kick up the lobbying (bribing) efforts for EU officials since they aren't quite yet in Microsoft's pockets like every US politician.
I'm betting the first truck that arrived was also a PICKUP truck, not a pumper truck. I'm not impressed.
How can I be part of the TEAFART party?
No, you succeed in killing all the ones who *got caught*. The smarter ones keep going, and if you think death is a deterrent then I guess there's no organized crime in either Russia or China. Oh wait, there is, on a massive scale.
Government-imposed death provides martyrs and hate for said government and it's supporters.
If you raise gas taxes and most people will move closer to work, take public transit, or carpool, as the extra cost of rent will be cheaper. Electric vehicles are expensive. Less demand will be placed on highways, and less money will be needed to keep feeding urban sprawl. Additionally, less people will be injured or killed in car accidents, and if in a more densely populated area, closer to a hospital.
Good roads do benefit all of us, and we do need some public subsidies, but perhaps our current level of subsidy is encouraging excessive consumption.
That may be, but it apparently didn't stop the US federal government from suing them, with some success.
Who do you imagine paid for this service if not taxpayers?
"Volunteer" fire departments are not free; they are simply staffed by non-full time fire fighters. They are compensated in full for their time spent responding to calls by the municipality.
"1) The way it is done usually is far more costly"
> The way it is done usually
> usually
Some rope and a tree isn't that expensive.
"2) All methods seem to be rather cruel"
Good. I like cruel when it comes to the death of murderers and rapists. Their victims usually suffered more than they will.
"3) You _will_ end up killing innocents."
I know. But we end up killing innocents even without capital punishment. Every time someone is released (early) from prison because a psychiatrist says the guy is OK now and a judge signs the release and this guy kills again, you end up with the exact same situation, someone innocent getting killed. Except that the person killed in this scenario did not get a fair trial.
TDS didn't have a monopoly, they weren't even providing internet service in Monticello yet. They sued because they felt using bond money to fund infrastructure like internet service is unconstitutional competition. The city was forced to put their network rollout on hold for the courts to make a decision. All the while, TDS was rolling out their own network.
It was effectively a stall tactic. I'm sure even TDS knew they would fail in court.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
I haven't looked at the chapter closely yet, though every time it comes up I wonder if decreasing ice cream prices and putting more cops on the streets also lowers the crime rate. Or perhaps eating more peanut butter sandwiches and putting more cops on the street... you get my drift?
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
Absolutely agreed. Now please come up with an equally black-and-white system that describes exactly which problems warrant elimination, and ensures that only such problem causers are eliminated.
It was effectively a stall tactic. I'm sure even TDS knew they would fail in court.
As punishment for abusing the court system, the city should use imminent domain to take the infrastructure and then lease it back to TDS.
Of course, maybe the whole idea behind the "threat" of a public system was to compel TDS to get off its butt and actually provide the service.
Volunteer fire departments may well be more efficient, but as this is a reply to the humorous parent regarding socialist fire departments I would say volunteer fire departments are no less such. The term "volunteer" refers to the firefighters volunteering to be on call rather as opposed to full time employees, it does not necessarily mean they work for free. Volunteer fire departments still require funding like any service to maintain their equipment, facilities, etc. The source of this funding can be federal, state, or local governement as well as corporate or private donations. Regardless of where this money comes from it needs to come from somewhere and when the smoke clears if you didn't pay the balance then the community did in one way or another.
Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
Microsoft's net income revenue last quarter was $12.92 billion, according to Microsoft. Assuming that quarter's typical (feel free to check more thoroughly if you suspect it's not), the fine you've discussed was 5.6% of Microsoft's net income for a year, or 1.5% of their revenue. That's not far from what pete6677 said, and as you say it was the largest (in absolute terms) fine anywhere ever at the time.
I'd have to say this supports pete6677's point - courts don't issue fines sufficiently large to really hurt a corporation, and they do issue fines against individuals which exceed their net worth or yearly earnings; then they garnish their income for years to come.
How much you want to bet?
HINT: it was a fire engine.
Except with voluntary contributions, it comes voluntarily.
Or do you think the Red Cross (or the Church of Scientology!) ought to be able to deduct money straight from your paycheck?
Voluntary contributions, obviously. There were thousands and thousands of charitable organizations in this country doing great work long before the government started sticking it's nose into the private lives of its citizens.
Actually, the article is wrong. The legal challenge didn't stop them, they went ahead and installed their fiber network anyways. The article is simply wrong.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
Oh come on. The circumstance you refer to as a victim is the very example you are looking for. Wake up buddy. Your dream is giving me nightmares!
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
Not only emergency services but health care - would you actually negotiate the care given to your child to drive down costs? Do you really think you are going to hunt for lowest cost provider for your child's health (or even life)?
I would claim that this is exactly why we need to have universal health coverage - since when you need it you can not actually make those choices nor should you have to.
Exactly, luckily a new system is developed to make instant DNA identification, and now we can find those with defective genes and have them executed or sterilized, too sci-fi for you? well there's something more down to earth, blame the community, the elders that treat youth like shit and expect benefits all the time, blame the parents that overwork themselves to avoid going home, blame the tv for spewing shit 24/7. There are a lot of problems in this world, but you just want to treat the symptoms, you can try that, the US is doing it, how long do you think it will be until half the population will be in jail? It's past sick, sad and horrid, it's bloody hilarious ...
Microsoft getting fined $800 million for bundling Windows Media Player and not having a decent API for its server programs is the example I'm looking for? Forgive me, but that decision has always struck me as being overkill.
For the people who volunteer their time and receive no monetary compensation that is fantastic but my point is that: 1) volunteer fire fighters don't always work for free 2) to expect that the amount of people who would work for free is always going to be sufficient to satisfy the need for firefighters would be naive 3) for the volunteers that do get paid for their time, it isn't all voluntary donations, tax dollars from some level of government are generally a large portion of their budget. I'm no expert, and there may be some departments that get by on pure donations of time and money, but it is by no means a one size fits all solution.
Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
>>>The police do their job. The lawyers do theirs. Every other part of the system works; except the judges.
Judges ARE lawyers.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Who gets to decide which are "the ones causing problems"?
I am not a sig.
As a Minnesotan who lives near Monticello and has researched this in some depth, I can say with some measure of certainty that isn't the case. Monticello is a small town. They were tired of waiting for the telcos to bring high speed internet into town and decided to do it themselves.
TDS likely didn't think there was a market for it until the city took action.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
It's only overkill if you give it a biased wording like you did.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The correlation is theoretically because the people most likely to take advantage of legalized abortion are people who wouldn't be providing an ideal home environment if they kept the child, which is going to increase the child's chances of becoming a criminal. The conclusion was so interesting because it's initially surprising, but makes sense when you think about it (which type of phenomena the book is about). They're not just making a "Kill everyone and there'll be no crime!" argument.
--Obyron
... a well placed town backhoe trench. Oops.
I can't tell if you are kidding or not. Most fire departments have volunteers in them, just not enough of them to run all the stations in the country 24/365. How many stations do you think you could run on a volunteer basis on Christmas eve/day. What do you do on Superbowl Sunday when the volunteers call in sick? Hope there are no fires?
BTW: All the equipment and training are paid for by tax-payers and I think they also get things like medical and maybe retirement (as incentives to have volunteers).
"For starters a public education system is the tenth plank of the communist manifesto."
So? Millions of people all around the world benefit from this.
I am an Engineer and classically trained musician, my sister is a violin player and Engineer and my brother (RIP) was a yet another Engineer (he was the dumb one in the family, so he didn't study music).
My parents were a low rank soldier and a primary school teacher.
My grand parents were all poor, subsistence farmers, who could hardly feed themselves and their families (which is why they moved to a big city to find new oportunities, like education).
There is simply no chance whatsoever that my parents could have afforded the real cost of our education, or my grandparents the cost of my parents' one.
The cost to our family? Zilch. Nada. Zero (OK, I paid 200 pesos a year in university, before the Mexican peso dropped 3 zeros from any monetary amounts in order to rationalize the monetary system, after years of high inflation, you do the math, to say the payment was symbolic is an understatement).
The social and economic benefits are obvious. Instead of having 5 more subsistence farmers (or more, since more likely my parents would have had more children had they remained uneducated) the country got 5 people that achieved more socially and economically that would have otherwise been expected.
Education is the pillar of social mobility, and if Marx was all for it, count me as a Marxist then.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
So to summarize your position: you object to people (the government) forcing you to pay for a service, but you expect other people to provide you with a service for free.
Typical.
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Umm, yeah, we don't need them. Volunteer fire departments are more efficient and don't bankrupt cities with the longstanding obligations they create, as they have in California, and now in Houston.
You realize that taxpayer money is what funds volunteer fire departments, dont you? Because people volunteer to be a fireman at one doesnt magically make a bunch of fire trucks and the fire house and the property and the related taxes appear. Just like volunteer EMS stations... oh, and by the way, you'll find that there are still a number of non-volunteer people who work at either.
Really, research it. I dont have to. I do work for a few of them.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Dont let the GP dissuade you, our criminal justice system is largely effective and the GP is just having a personal rant against Australian Judges (his right, see out Five Fundamental Freedoms (most Aussies don't even know we have them)).
Our justice system does err on the side of caution but this is a good thing, we do not like to convict innocent people, as some famous yank once said, it is better to let 100 guilty men go free then to imprison 1 innocent man.
Youth justice is not our strong point but really bad criminals are removed from society, overall it's pretty safe, the most common crimes in Australia are B&E and Auto Theft, both happen when you're not there. For the most part, Australia's crims are complete cowards.
Oh yes, our internet services are the worst in the western world, I'm on holiday in Thailand and on the Island of Ko Chang the guy running this Internet cafe pays the same for unlimited microwave connection to the mainland as I do for ADSL with a 22 GB download limit (A$60). Similar speed as well although microwave is completely dependent on the weather. But our judges will never permit AFACT (Australia's RIAA) to launch frivolous law suits against downloaders for 100-200 times what they are worth.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
You know when you have several bank notes of the same amount, they're equivalent. You can mix them, exchange them, it doesn't matter where they come from.
I'm pretty sure I learned that in kindergarten or something. You might want to take a remedial course.
I haven't looked at the chapter closely yet, though every time it comes up I wonder if decreasing ice cream prices and putting more cops on the streets also lowers the crime rate. Or perhaps eating more peanut butter sandwiches and putting more cops on the street... you get my drift?
Similarly legalizing abortion and eating more peanut butter sandwiches, or legalizing abortion and decreasing ice cream prices will also lower the crime rate. In fact, doing anything that will lower the crime rate plus anything that doesn't increase the crime rate will lower the crime rate! And combining two things which lower the crime rate (abortion and putting more cops on the street) will lower the crime rate much more than something that has no or negligible impact on the crime rate (capital punishment).
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I'm familiar with the argument; I just haven't reviewed the evidence closely enough to determine that legalized abortion is actually a significant variable here. The real issue is the availability of means to limit childbirth, so a more significant factor ought to be ready access to contraception of all kinds. The people who would most stand to benefit from not having kids right now (young and poor) are the ones who are least likely to have ready access to an expensive medical procedure, legal or not.
That's why I suspect that abortion per se may be correlated, but not causally.
NB I support legalized, free abortion on demand, but not because of hoped-for impact on crime.
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
Do you realize that your "Taxed Enough Already For American Red Truck Socialism" organizations acronym is TEAFARTS?
Yes, but volunteers don't get retirement, or create other longstanding obligations on the taxpayer. It would be a simple thing for fire departments to be funded privately. They could even provide free fire service for residential neighborhoods while charging for their services on commercial buildings. The point is that there are a lot of ways to do things that don't involve having the government pay for all expenses through involuntary taxes.
Paying for capital investments like fire tracks and stations is different from paying for salaries, benefits, union fees, retirement, etc for firemen. Volunteer fire departments cost far less than government run fire departments, and could easily be run without ANY support from any government.
Really? You're honestly comparing execution of hardened criminals to genocide? And this mindless dreck got modded "insightful"?
--Ford Prefect
Just remember, when the government is your ISP then the government 1) controls what you're allowed to access 2) tracks what you do online
I am sure that they are no worse that the others, but my experience with TDS leads me to find no surprises here...
Yes, but volunteers don't get retirement, or create other longstanding obligations on the taxpayer.
Wrong again... look up LOSAP.
It would be a simple thing for fire departments to be funded privately. They could even provide free fire service for residential neighborhoods while charging for their services on commercial buildings. The point is that there are a lot of ways to do things that don't involve having the government pay for all expenses through involuntary taxes.
Except that your whole premise is based on incorrect information as to how things currently work.
Paying for capital investments like fire tracks and stations is different from paying for salaries, benefits, union fees, retirement, etc for firemen.
Except, that is exactly what happens... again, look up LOSAP.
Volunteer fire departments cost far less than government run fire departments, and could easily be run without ANY support from any government.
Really? Perhaps, but not for the reasons you suspect. Volunteers get pensions, pension plans, medical, dental and a bunch of other benefits. The non-volunteer members (of VOLUNTEER departments) do not attribute points to their pension plan via LOSAP, but do in other ways (the same ways that paid employees elsewhere would).
Regardless, it is the taxpayers that fund it all.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
As one of these true socialists (I am a volunteer firefighter, no capitalist pig pays my salary), I wish I had mod points.
They sued because they felt using bond money to fund infrastructure like internet service is unconstitutional competition.
No, they sued because they didn't want competition for a service they didn't even provide. The city asked them for it but they refused. It's not the first tyme and I doubt it'll be the last.
All the while, TDS was rolling out their own network.
According to more than one article TDS only started rolling fiber after the city started and TDS took action against the city.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
TDS likely didn't think there was a market for it until the city took action.
The city asking for the company to install broadband should of been a big hint. It wouldn't have taken much effort after that to canvas the city asking people if they wanted broadband. I'd say the fact the company only did anything after the city decided to do something they refused to do says they don't care about the people at all.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
in summary, Microsoft was fined 500 million Euros ($800 million) which was I believe the largest fine anywhere ever at the time
In the 3 months ending on 30-9-09 Microsoft made $7.346 Billion in profits so in effect MS's fine was only a week or two's profit. That's a get out of jail free card. To MS paying the fine is only a part of business, they made much more.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
No TDS lost every battle but still won the war/
Monticello will be screwed, but won't other towns and hamlets now have case law on their side?
Only Minnesota towns and hamlets. The rulings where TDS lost were all state courts not federal. Sure places in other states can try to use the MS rulings but it doesn't mean they'll be effective.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I don't know which sounds better, a local government beholden to the population or the corporate aristocracy, uhm...
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You're correct. I wasn't really clear when I described the series of events. TDS started their network rollout after they sued Monticello. It was a stall tactic to beat the city to a functional network.
The hubris of TDS is incredible. I think the judge should have gone farther and sanctioned TDS for their action.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Really? When was the last tyme a corporation had it's charter revoked? After 20 year Alaskans are still waiting for Exxon to pay them yet Exxon still exists. Corporations exist far beyond many humans. How many 100 year people do you know? That's how old IBMis. Exxon is almost as old.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The most recent and current example of this is deregulation of power in Texas and California.
I don't know about Texas but when was power deregulated in California? And don't say in the 1990s, what CA did then was not deregulation, some regulations were removed but others were added. One such regulation was that power distribution companies could not raise their prices, but power generators could. Another regulation was that electrical generators could not also transmit the power.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You left out steps. For instance the first step was not the government announcing plans to lay fiber. The first step was asking TDS to lay the fiber. It was only after TDS refused to lay fiber when the citizens voted to lay the fiber.
The city should have opened the right of way so any business that wanted to use it to deliver broadband could. They should have told TDS they were going to allow other businesses to use it then said "the early bird gets the worms." Watch the prices drop when there's real competition.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
draft me into the army to die in Iraq,
Neither can city government. Or state government.
No you're right, and I too am tired of the hyperbole. However Massachusetts has something almost as bad. Due to a shortage in Mitt Romney's government-run healthcare, they are starting to ration care, turning-away people are considered too old. i.e. No better than the insurance companies... may, worse than them (you can say "no" and not buy insurance).
And Romney's a Republican. What I rarely ever hear, as when Ron Paul was on Larry King's show (which he occasionally is), is allowing insurance companies to sell health insurance across state lines. The one power the feds have they aren't using. I see commercials saying how some states only have a couple of choices as to who provides insurance but instead of saying policy issuers should be able to sell across state lines they say a public option is needed.
Not only that but they don't say anything about giving people who buy insurance on their own the same tax breaks as employers who offer insurance.
Where we, you and I, disagree is in who owns the infrastructure. I have absolutely no problem with the local, say city, government owning the infrastructure if there is a monopoly. But I would require them to have open access, and let businesses compeat with each other for the services the infrastructure can deliver. Comcast can use the same stuff as ATT and Mom and Pop ISP. Local not federal governments.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
We have 17 year olds, here in Australia, who can kill people, and get 2.5-3 years for it, in a youth training centre. The police do their job. The lawyers do theirs. Every other part of the system works; except the judges.
If your judges aren't doing their job, or you don't like how they're doing it either change the laws or fire the judges.
You could also use jury jullification against laws you think are bad. I was called up to show for jury duty twice and both tymes I was hoping I'd be picked to serve on a jury where I could use jury nullification, such as a drug possession or trafficking case.
Unlike most people, I don't have such a big issue with lawyers; because I say to any judge who reads this, that I know where the fault with the system really is. It isn't with them, judges. It's with you.
What are you doing to change the system? If nothing you're part of the problem.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I hate how 'vengeance' has become a dirty word; and yet if you have been the victim of a crime, surely it is a basic human need.
No it isn't a basic human need. Because of an accident, that was not an accident, I survived a Traumatic Brain Injury. I was hit by a moving van while riding my own bike after my classes in college. Witnesses said the driver was weaving all over the road and it was only a matter of tyme before he hit someone. While I wanted him to pay I do not wish the hell that my life became on him. I am not that sadistic.
And what if the person who you took your vengeance on was innocent, should he or she exercise the same vengeance on you? If the person's dead oops, it's too late. All that leads to is might makes right.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
a large percentage of the people in US jails (at least in California) are gang members. They continue operating in the gangs while in jail, and once they get out, they keep doing illegal gang related activities. Gangs haven't penetrated Canada and Australia the same way they have here.
And what are the gangs for? A lot is for controlling drugs. Making drugs legal will reduce their violence and crime activities. Rational people would think politicians would have learned this lesson from Prohibition, which made organized crime powerful.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
they're coming back into style because gas taxes are effectively at a maximum
Fuel taxes are not even close to a maximum in the US. Cross into Canada and fill up your gas tank, you'll pay a lot more in taxes. And no you can't say that's because gas in Canada is expensive. Canada is the biggest exporter of oil to the US, Mexico is the number 2 provider of oil. Fact is is the US has low fuel taxes compared to other countries.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
That is a point worth keeping in mind, but it doesn't explain why the US has more gang problems than other countries.
Qxe4
As of right now, and for the last couple decades, proven reserves have risen faster than consumption.
Citation needed.
>>Because nuclear is unsafe and produces waste that is also dangerous.
Bullshit. Pure and simple.
No, simply this is pure bullshit.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
That is a point worth keeping in mind, but it doesn't explain why the US has more gang problems than other countries.
Could that be because it is a big melting pot? What other nation has as many different ethnic groups? Don't ethnic groups who feel isolated form their own groups?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I suggest you look at what happened at the beginning of the industrial age before government intervention.
Like what?
If you prefer more recent examples, look at what removing restriction from the financial system did.
What restrictions? Like the restrictions on redlining neighborhoods with bad credit histories, thus making it easier for those who could not pay their mortgages to get one? Like Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac guaranteeing loans for those who could not pay them back? Fact is is the financial system was not deregulated, it had more regulations added.
Quite simply governments pressured mortgage originators to make loans to those who could not afford them.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. Why should a group of "concerned citizens" be able to block development on someone else's property? If there were an accident or a meltdown, or whatever other problem might come about from it, let the aggrieved party sue the daylights out of them. That is the free market feedback mechanism preventing harm to people.
Do you also support the removal of the subsidies nuclear power gets? Nuclear Power is Hooked on Subsidies. Wall Street would not fund nuclear power without subsides. Notice how at the bottom of the Forbes article, hosted on a free markets institutes's servers, it says:
"How do France (and India, China and Russia) build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Governmental officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Nuclear power appeals to state planners, not market actors."
Now if you had said that about offshore wind farms, like the one Ted Kennedy opposed, I'd agree.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
At least public roads are directly funded by those who use them (drivers). If you don't drive, then you don't pay the "use fee" collected at the pumps.
No, drivers don't pay all the costs of roads, tax payers pay. The fuel tax collected from gas does not cover the costs of roads so money from the general fund, which everyone pays who pays income tax pays into, is used. Fuel tax would have to be much higher for it to pay all cost of roads, constructions and maintenance.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Right, the rest is covered by use taxes on commercial trucks and shipping services. Just like they would be under a free market. Individuals would be able to use the road for little or no cost, perhaps a hundred dollar a year pass (which they would save in gas).
Wrong, fuel tax, taxes on commercial trucks, and shipping services does not fully cover the costs of roads. Here's a page from the Oregon state government: Road User Fee Task Force. In it they propose using a mileage fee to cover the cost of the roads. From Popular Mechanics, Should the US Tax Mileage or Fuel?: Guest Analysis. Heck some of the so called stimulus money is going to roads. A few miles from me a road is being repaired and there are signs all along it saying the work is being supported by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, notice how core investments are being made in roads
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yes. Then I want cuts in other taxes. If instead of getting a gas guzzling SUV I get a fuel sipping hybrid I should be able to spend the money I save on something else, or invest it. No, actually I'd rather pay a user fee for how many miles I drive. Though my hybrid sips fuel it still causes wear and tear on the roads. Because I don't drive much I still wouldn't pay much.
Falcon
BTW I don't have a hybrid
Should there be a Law?
Your precept that only those who drive benefit from roads is both short sighted and incorrect.
And your precept that only drivers pay for roads is both shortsighted and incorrect. Workers A and B do similar types of work, but A travels 30 miles to work whereas B walks across the street. Worker A will demand more, which drives up the cost of the product he makes, so B pays more. Not having A's travel expenses B still has to pay fuel taxes, because what she wants to buy still uses the roads as does A.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Not to mention that *bikers* use roads all the time, and I'm sure the four or five of you out there who are bicycle riders will agree that better roads make for better biking.
Better drivers make for better biking. There's little that is as dangerous for bikers on the roads as bad or inattentive drivers.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
etc
How do you feel about cutting corporate welfare? Do you support cutting corporate welfare as well or only cutting support for those who need it?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The problem with the welfare system is that there isn't enough oversight taking place
No, the problem with welfare is that it is set up to keep those on welfare dependent.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Or at least require a certain amount of work (even a token) in order to receive benefits.
It's not so much as requiring those on welfare to work as welfare is set up to keep those on welfare dependent. If you're on welfare and you get a job you risk losing the aid you're receiving. By working you can have less money than not working. Welfare should be a hand up not a hand out. Allow people to work without losing the assistance they're getting until they can stand on their own.
Years ago I worker full time at a job that only paid a little more than minimum wages and my employer didn't offer health insurance. So I looked to buy some myself and the cheapest I found cost more than 1/3 of my monthly pay. Someone told me I should check with the county where I lived for medical assistance and they told me I made too much to qualify. One of the workers there said that if I quit I'd qualify. So I could work and pay my expenses except health care, or I could quit and have health care but not be able to support myself.
My situation is even worse now.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The far right is messed up with their trying to shove religion down everyones throat and the far left is messed up trying to protect everyone from themselves.
Only it's not just the left that tries to protect everyone from themselves. The right shares in that. Before he got busted doctor shopping Rush Limbaugh wanted to throw drug users in jail and throw away the keys. He and others on the right don't support what a woman does with her own body either.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I would still put Bechtel in the category of good operators.
Making excuses? The wiki article contained more unsavory dealings of Bechtel. Such as the Ok Tedi Mine Bechtel constructed in Papua New Guinea which polluted a river. Or supporting a war lord in the Congo, where a lot of people have been driven off their land if not killed to mine for the minerals Bechtel wanted. There were massive cost overruns in Boston's Big Dig project. When the ceiling in a part of the tunnel Bechtel was responsible for collapsed it killed someone.
The "moral justice" meted out by the US federal government is very unevenly distributed
Oh I agree. No trade with or travel to Cuba? But trade with and travel to China and the Soviet Union was legal, both of which were far worse? I was stationed in Germany while in the US Army in 1982. On the post, base, American Express had an ad for travel to Russia. How ironic is that?
it seems unfair to vilify Bechtel for finding itself on the wrong side of that often arbitrary distribution with millions of dollars on the line.
Arbitrary? Perhaps Saddam's gassing was arbitrary but it wasn't arbitrary to have dealings with him. The one thing that could be said in Bechtel's defense was that at that tyme Reagan and his administration supported Saddam, there was nothing Saddam could that was bad, but that does not excuse Bechtel's complicity.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
so my viewpoint is skewed.
I find that ironic. It's the states that grant corporations their charters, not the federal government. Maryland is a favorite state to headquarters corporation because it's friendly to corporations.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
A rarity indeed! Excellent post.
I almost always try to back up my position by providing links. Here's one from Saturday with the same links.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Personally I'm agnostic, "a" without and "gnostic" knowledge, I am without knowledge. Or belief. I seek knowledge though and am willing to look at any spiritual or religious evidence. Otherwise I try not to do harm to others and say live and let live.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
it is not the duty of the Christian to convert,
Do you recall the saying, joke, about Mormons and others who go door to door spreading the "Word of God"? It goes something like this, I don't recall what it goes exactly. When a person answers the door when the evangelical knocks the evangelical says they're there to spread the word of God. The person then asks what is the word of God and the evangelical says that God exists and those who heard but do not believe go to hell. The person who answered the door then tells the evangelical "you've just sentenced me to hell."
Personally I can't understand how, if there is a Supreme Deity, it can require faith. And that those without faith go to some "hell" to suffer for eternity. It reminds me of Keanu Reeves' Constantine. If you haven't seen it I don't want to spoil it but Reeves' character knows of the existence of God and angels. He grew up seeing them, but thinking he's imagining what he sees his parents put him in therapy which includes electroshock before he commits suicide. When he'd dead he comes to know what he sees is real, then he's revived. Afterwards he goes through life knowing that because he committed murder and he doesn't have faith he's going to hell. Why have faith when you know the truth?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?