Slashdot Mirror
Saying No To Promotions Away From Tech?
lunchlady55 writes "I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role, oriented toward 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is: have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"
Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call.
Or you will be replaced by someone whome is currently a member of the 10+% unemployment group. So ya, your fucked with pager duty.
Life is not for the lazy.
Honestly, I can't tell you.
At worst, it could kill any advancement (if such exists) in your company.
From the sound of it though, it's "get a soul-ectomy and become a manager" or you've hit a career plateau.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Most people are happy to just have a job right now. If it's getting away from tech, but giving you a better job title to put on your resume, it's worth it to give it some time and start looking for something new.
If your happy why change? You may also find that you aren't cut out for that type of job either. I know I'm not, I've been in a technical field at the same company for over 11 years and it hasn't impacted me in a negative way. I might make a little more money if I'd gone into management but I wouldn't be happy.
Had this "option" last year, said no thanks -- they found someone else and I'm still programming!
Eventually all things become a "job", so take the most cash you can get and rest peacefully at night knowing you will only be woken up 20 times a year at 3am instead of 100.
So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
Are actually pretty common, and are rarely optional. If you plan to continue with this company as a career, your only response can be enthusiasm with a hope to promote up or out of "On Call Hell". Sorry.
If management is something that interests you then go for it. But if you're like me you wont want to.
The technical aspect of my job is what I enjoy, not ensuring we have adequate cover, or that Joe actually came in at 0900 and not 0905 again!!! Your technical role will slowly be reduced until you are more concerned about rota's, quota's and time management...*shudder*
There is no -1 disagree
So, are you saying that, as a non-technical manager or administrator, you'll have to work more and be on call, compared to the technical people who work their 4/40 and are off the rest of the time?
Why would the managers be on call all the time and the tech people not? That seems backwards to me, or maybe I just misunderstood...
Either way, take a hike and find a better job. Companies are still hiring - but they're only hiring people who can earn their keep (i.e. you bring in more money than you cost). If you are a good leader, you will be able to sell yourself on that.
...to respond is to try to promote through this one (and possibly more) to a position high enough that you will be able to enforce your privacy and off-time. It's like with sharks - you either move or you die.
Your the only person who can answer one simple question about this "Will this advance a career path that I wish to go down?". If this won't help advance a career path you want, than you should look for an alternative. Perhaps they want to groom you for management, and feel this is a good lead into it? Ask your manager how they see this with regards to your career path and go from there.
I started to go that route with my old company. I decided I did not want to hear coworkers / direct reports wining about "He wore a pink shirt today -- he knows I hate pink -- he did that just to bug me". The other conversations about employee's personal hygiene I didn’t enjoy much either. During a round of layoffs I took a voluntary separation package -- I volunteered to be laid off. They paid me nicely and I took the summer off. Now I am doing tech work again with another company and much happier.
Say no thanks, explain to them that you can best serve the company with your interests in the position you are already in for the moment. If they let you go this will demonstrate lack of wisdom on their part and you would be better served by someone new. Although, of course, the transition is never pleasant.
Shh.
take the promotion and start looking elsewhere. Any manager who does not ASK you if you want to do a job is bad, and things will only get worse.
Well, IMO there's a certain point as an admin where you hit a compensation/challenge wall, and from there you either go into management or into consulting (or just get bored and rot in place, like me).
If you're being asked to do more shit for the same pay, then that's not a promotion, and I'd find another job if I could.
And like I said, it depends. Family? Mortgage? Mafia debts? All are factors that modify the put-up-with-this-shit meter.
Incidentally, I think the type/character of org you're in plays a role as well. If mgmt is a bunch of clubby, clueless fucks, far better to have a meat shield than be directly in contact with them, for everyone's safety and health.
An annual review, besides being a great opportunity to get a raise or some additional PTO, is when you should be discussing your plans and goals with your manager. Get this straight, you are not being "forced" to move into management. You can always leave. Your manager values your contribution, and possibly they are in a bind for some management help. If that's the case, offer to take on some management tasks while they interview for a new supervisor. Particularly if this is your first five years of employment, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stay technical, and they should be open to that.
I haven't had to face this directly, but I've seen several of my co-workers be "promoted" to managerial positions, and they pretty much universally hate it. Besides just the crazy increase in workload and responsibility, they barely get to do technical work anymore, which I think is the biggest downside for most of them. As an engineer, I've got 2, maybe 3 meetings on my calendar each week, the rest of the time is spent...engineering. My supervisor's calendar, who is supposed to be a lead engineer, is chuck full of meetings, most are non-technical. There are weeks where he doesn't do any engineering at all because he's too busy being a manager.
Obviously, if your job is at stake, it's a tough call to make, especially in this economic climate. Depending on what kind of relationship you have with him, you might be able to just talk to your superior about it, tell them you'd really prefer to keep your old position, but explain that it's not worth your job (assuming that's the case).
Best of luck with it.
Slashdot is not a game, Slashdot is not a game. Crap, I just lost points.
As you mention in your question, your business runs 24/7 and you work 4 days a week, so this likely puts you into the IT department. With all due respect, it's unlikely that your experience to this point has prepared you for people-oriented work. Your managers are setting you up for failure.
Has someone else recently left? Has there been or does there appear to be a project that is destined to fail?
Sorry to say, in this economy, you're pretty much screwed. You'll be fired soon from your current job and there probably won't be another company hiring a sysadmin for a while yet. Good luck.
The real issue is if you want to be in a technical role for life, or if you would like to transition to management. The initial change from technical to managerial positions means a sacrifice, but long-term there are significant benefits.
In my field, people below the line get paid overtime, and above the line are pure salary. Many people get 10-15% overtime, and only a 5-7% pay increase for crossing the line, thus taking a pay cut in the process. Within a year or two they usually make up the gap and then some, as they are eligible for higher bonuses instead.
If you think you are just going to become a worthless PHB and that has no interest for you, by all means pass though...
I moved from a technical a more administrative role because it was the natural progression in the career path I've chosen. So one consideration for you is if you have a future in mind that requires a steady upward progression through the organizational hierarchy. Another consideration is how management would view a declination of additional responsibility. I've had some managers who were perfectly OK with having someone stop at a chosen point; others (in the same company) want only--or primarily--upwardly mobile people working for them.
Is the increased responsibility and availability sufficiently compensated? Will you be comfortable managing those who were until recently your peers? Other considerations aside--from a purely avocational perspective--which would you rather do: your current job or the one being offered?
Don't do it.
If you take it, you'll be miserable.
If you don't take it, you'll be blackballed for future promotions because you're not a "team player."
At least in the latter, you have your dignity intact.
My dad managed to hang on at the top of the engineering ladder at a major oil/chemicals company for about 20 years after the first attempt to promote him, resisting an attempted promotion into the managerial ranks about every 2-4 years. A lot of companies, especially old-style companies, are set up with the assumption that everyone wants to climb out of the "working" ranks into the "management" ranks if they can, perhaps because that was more true when the working ranks involved more physical labor. It got a little easier to "stick" at his desired place when someone managed to dig up some sort of super-senior-engineer ranking that was rarely used, which let them give him a promotion without the usual promotion to management.
If the lower levels of management is okay with it, it can work, and they might even like it. Engineers who "should" be in management are essentially experienced enough to manage themselves, and maybe even de-facto manage a few of othe other team members, which can make the manager look good by making it easier for them to pretend they know what's going on--- at large companies, the lower level of management right above the engineers are often people who rotate in/out of jobs every 5 years or so, usually on a quest to move up the ranks to VP, so they honestly rarely have much idea what's going on or any historical perspective/experience.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Really your being given a chance to be a leader, but recognize that you can now be the bosses "fall guy" as well. So take that into account. But really the question is do you want to be a manager with all the benefits and problems versus doing what your doing? my father in an unrelated career has chosen to pass up promotions not because he wasn't capable (neither are you) but he loved what he is doing, plus he did not like the way his upper management runs things so he is staying where he is and is happy. You can say "No" and give them a reason "no right time in my life" or "want more experience first" but realize that when the position comes up again you may not be asked again.
Sounds like a nice example of the Peter Principle in action.
Can't you persuade management that (which i assume is part of your problem, apart from the working hours thing) you simply won't be the right person for this job, and that you'd rather keep doing something that you are good at?
"Money is a sign of poverty." - Iain Banks
Wow, the future was never like this in my dreams! ;)
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
It really depends on the situation.
If The New Manager is intent on making their fast-track bones by shaking things up, the entire tech level may soon be outsourced.
What is important is what you want.
Do you want to give management a try?
Do you want to learn The New Manager's style of managing?
Have you ever thought 'if I were running things we would not be doing X, we would do Y'?
I suggest you give it a shot, maybe you will like it.
If you turn it down, be sure to give The New Manager every reason to know that you are just too darn essential in the tech role to be moved out of it.
Either way: Get your resume out there, and start actively looking for a new job.
Good Luck!
http://visualizecommonsense.com/
Most managers are not on call. This sounds like his manager is delegating roles out to people so he can 'manage' better. Or why work hard your self when you can get someone else to do it for you. I would go over that managers head ad see what really is going on. Losing your 3 day week ends is going to suck. But working 5 days and being on call the other 2 for every week sounds wrong. Rotating on call weekends fine. Every weekend, sound like they are trying to get you to quit.
Does this new manager see you as a threat? This could be his (her?) way of getting you to quit. You quitting is better then them firing you. I would talk to your manager's boss to see what is going on. Your manager might be trying to get rid of you.
Before you do anything you should talk with your manager in-depth about you role and expectations, make sure to get those in writing. Being a manager will open you up to more benefits in the company, bonuses, profit sharing, faster PTO accrual, ... find out what benefits your company has and negotiate for them. Remember they are asking you so try to get as many perks as possible.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
My dad was a Tool Pusher for a drilling company, until one day he was offered a promotion to a desk job. He turned it down, and was "let go" in a matter of weeks. I'm not entirely sure why, but I imagine employers don't like it when people turn down promotions. I've had similar things happen to other friends as well.
"Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50% increase in pay + 30% bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.
if they blink, you know they aren't serious about having you in management.
Is...is this something that's good for your career? Is it a promotion? Is it a lateral move?
If it's a promotion you didn't ask for, and you turn it down for very clear reasons, AND you're doing a good job at your current role, there's a good chance you'll be fine. After all a valuable employee at Position X who turns down a promotion to X+1, is still valuable at X. However, it is likely that future promotions will be unavailable to you, at least for a while, as you'll be perceived as "happy where you are"
On the other hand, if you're being moved laterally to a non-technical position, there's a decent chance they say something like, "Well, lunchlady55 is smart, and very organized, good manager, but not really hands-on technical enough for what we need. We don't want to lose lunchlady55, but we're suffering because of L55's technical weaknesses. Why don't we move L55 laterally to a project manager-type role where we can leverage his/her strengths and backfill the technical position with someone who's very technical but requires lots of oversight"
In that situation, they're actually being good managers, by recognizing that they have a valuable employee who is just in the wrong position, and trying to rectify the situation. On the gripping hand, they're being bad managers, because if this is the case, it should really be explained to you.
If the latter situation is the case, you put them in a much rougher position, because they like you, but you're not meeting their needs in one area or another. In this case, you may lose your job.
The best way to handle this is to have an open and frank conversation with your manager. Talk about what the organizational chart looks like. Who will you be reporting to? Is there a raise or other compensation for being on-call? Be frank - are there concerns about your current job performance that led to this lateral move? Are they eliminating your position and they're just trying to protect you personally?
Based on all this, you can make an informed decision about what the situation is. You may want to try to negotiate yourself a better deal. For example, you're on call for the weekends, but whenever you have to do off-hours work while on-call, you get 2x that amount of time off your regular day during the week. Or you get paid for on-call time. Don't try to negotiate this until you understand why this is happening.
me@mzi.to
I wasn't pushed out of IT but about a year after starting my first job after grad I was pushed out of software development into a support role. At the time I went along, more out of fear of my job than anything else, but also because I didn't know any better. Ironically, I got so depressed in the support role that I eventually started looking for new work. And I loved the company I worked for too - good industry, respected company - so even thinking of leaving them was gut-wrenching.
They finally moved me back to my original development role at the last minute (I had another offer on the table) but it never did sit well with the management, who was unfortunately rather clueless about IT to begin with. A year later they outsourced their software development to India and I was told they "could not find a new role for me", which was very suspicious because there were numerous BA positions listed as vacant at the time I departed. However I did at least get severance.
So, to answer the question, no. If you resist, be prepared to start looking elsewhere. Also, be careful you aren't turning in your resignation by saying no: in many places if you turn down a promotion or lateral move you are deemed to have quit voluntarily and are thus not eligible for severance, options, or anything else. So one option might be to try it - it's possible you might like it, and if not at least it will buy you time to find something new.
P.S. That's the bad news of my story... the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines wasn't for me, went into contracting, and now I make a whole lot more money exclusively doing something I really enjoy. I realise not everyone is that fortunate, but sometimes good things do come out of these situations.
I have ran into similar problems in the past. I hit the ceiling of the "technical" promotion track, stayed there for a few years and finally hit the max salary band. If I wanted another promotion/pay increase I would have been forced into a project management track. I finally chose the option that wasn't being offered - I gave my two weeks notice and left for a new employer.
Communicate with your employer - tell them where your interests are. Talk to your boss, dept director, HR to see if there are any options to shift the promotion into a technical position. At the same time, if you are committed to keeping a tech job, keep your options open by seriously looking for new job opportunities. If you find that you are out of options with your employer, its probably time to move on.
Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. ~A. Perlis
"After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead .. and will now be required to work 5 eight-hour days rather than 4 ten-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week
..
If you still have to clock-on then you ain't a lead anything just another replaceable company drone. Time to move on. But don't tell them until you have the other job lined up. For your next job go for the donut downsizing executive position
"I'd really like to take this job, but I have family obligations that would prevent me from being on call during most weekends, is that OK?"
That should be your response. Come up with some good or BS reason why you can't work Friday or be on call during weekends. Then compromise
You know, you visit your parents in Timbuktu on weekends 3 hours away and can't be on call then since there's no reception. If he's OK with that, then just go home and turn your phone off on weekends...whether you visit your parents or not. And if you still have to work some weekends, OK, but at least now it's not the norm.
If he can't work with your needs, he'll probably keep you at your current post but at least here you're meeting him half-way.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Many "promotions" and "changes" issues by companies these days are designed to cut costs. You can view it as an euphemism for a demotion. Take it with a smile, because it's a nice way of saying that you're getting demoted instead of fired.
She clearly doesn't want the management job, which is why she's asking the question. The question is, "Will she be fired" if she turns down the promotion.
First - where are you? In the US, in an at-will state? They can let you go pretty easily. In Canada, with nothing but great reviews (ie no reason to fire you)? Well, you'd get a month of severance for every year you worked at the company, maybe more if you can show you would have a hard time finding an equivalent job, or you are getting on in years. Somewhere in between? YMMV. If it will cost the company 6 months of salary, they will give careful consideration about letting you go.
Have you moved up because you are indispensable? You're a unique snowflake of competence? Well, I doubt they'll let you walk out the door. Are there 10 people in your company that can do what you do? A cog in the machine? They can easily let you go.
If you don't want to take the job (and it sounds like you don't), then review how vital you are to the company, and what it would cost them to lose you (in severance and lost expertise). If you aren't vital, and they can replace you, then you have to be prepared to be let go.
If it will cost them a large severance package, and you are valued and needed, you won't be.
It happened to me.
I quit and went elsewhere. Admin is a thankless job where you are doubly punished for every mistake or missed deadline. The people you used to work with will gradually fade away from your sphere of close acquaintances until you have no one left. NOt to mention the speed with which your technical skills will lag behind your peers and those of newbies out of school.
IMHO, it's time to polish up your resume and bail out.
The idea of "Up or Out" is a failed policy that steals useful people from any organization's roles. It's the brainchild of some gormless git of an MBA with marginal, if any, technical skills, but unfortunately, one who believes that anyone is capable of managing and that everyone wants to.
If you're being forcibly moved, try to negotiate for everything, including extra compensation for being on-call.
As for the managerial side, this is nothing new. If you show a) competence, and b) any signs you don't have a serious attitude problem, it's expected. Then, if you want to go back in a few years, it'll be based either on your job performance (or lack thereof), and whether you're okay with sacrificing larger salaries in the future.
Some people aren't cut out for management, for a variety of reasons, and they either go back to non-management, or transition careers. It's no big deal these days. 40 years ago, different story; there was a social stigma attached to switching companies more than a couple of times, or even worse, ending up in a completely new line of work.
I was promoted to management against my will, and eventually had to arrange my own "demotion", which was not an easy thing to do.
The management position sucked. I hated trying to herd programmers. It was also right at the beginning of the tech bubble bursting, so I had to lay some people off. NOT fun.
I eventually got myself moved from Management to a Technical Advisor position that was at the same pay grade. That worked great until my next boss decided I needed to do the management stuff for all of the people on my teams, even though I wasn't their manager. That's when I applied for another job in the same company at a lower level. People thought I was insane, but I get to see my family, my weekends are mine for the most part and my current manager LOVES having me.
Do NOT get let them promote you above:
1. Level of competence (sucks)
2. Level of COMFORT! (more important.
I made the transition from tech to management, but it was voluntary - I wanted to make the move. My employer recognizes that not all techies want that (or would be particularly good at it), and so we work pretty hard to make sure there are non-management or non-supervisory career paths for our technical staff.
That said, it's my understanding that we're somewhat rare in this. Most employers seem to have the mindset that if you're not interested in moving beyond your technical role, you have no ambition. My best advise would be to talk to your employer, tell them you're happy with your current role and would prefer to excel there than move into a role that doesn't fit your strengths and skill set. They may respond well to that, but it's likely that they won't.
Most techies don't want to move into management (myself included). Some can resist the push, while others are swept into it. I suggest that those who are truly technically excellent (beyond their peers, no matter how good those peers are) have a good argument to stay but must make the argument themselves. We need some pillars of technical capability. The rest are likely to become less interested/aware of newly evolving technology and eventually can be more capable as a manager using the experience learned. That's a natural transition, but can be jarring if done too soon or too fast.
Then there's the more common category, those whithout technical or leadership skills. Those folks often make the transition earlier because they're not motivated by quality or productivity. They languish in middle management.
So I suggest that you assess what career path best uses your skills and preferences (as you can see them now). Achieving that at your current employer may be difficult, but it's worth knowing if fighting to stay technical is really the right path for you.
It depends why you're getting "promoted."
If they feel you're incompetent, but a hard worker, then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you're better suited. Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.
Otherwise, you should be asking your boss, not Slashdot. He's the only one who knows where he stands. Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick. Tell him you appreciate the offer, but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position. Tell him you'd prefer to remain in that role, and ASK HIM "hypothetically, how would you feel if I declined the offer?"
Just like people who are actually trying to get promotions, the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I had a similar experience and noticed that you can take very good decisions if you have a technical background. If you feel you can make a change for good from a higher position, take it as a challenge! Additionally, people in lower ranges like it when a technical manager surprises them with a low level solution.
From my point of view, whatever position you are at, if you are committed to your job, you are always on call and part of your job is having someone ready to catch bombs before they reach the manager. The best part is that you can always go back down one level.
I had that happen to me once. I turned it down and was with the company for 7 more years. But when layoffs came up.... And forget any promotions after that. Still no regrets on turning it down.
Certainly, the prospect of being on-call is unappealing. That's the one big obstacle here. However, I say, for the sake of long term job security do it. For me, the logical progression of my career involves moving up into management at some point. Get stuck down in the trenches and down the road you run into a variety of problems. You get too comfortable and fail to move with the times or you price yourself out of the market. Companies will find someone cheaper, without your family commitments and thus more willing to work overtime, to replace you. It's either that or you start your own business.
While I don't follow this as much as I'd like, I do believe that you sometimes need to get outside your comfort zone if you want to ensure your success. Having experienced this personally, and seen it happen with friends, letting yourself get too comfortable can prove to be a mistake.
Now, that said, certainly there are other ways to approach your career. But either way, you're going to have to take measures to ensure long-term job security. And by long-term I don't mean 5-10 years... I mean 10-20 years and longer. You don't want to lose a job 10+ years from now and be unable to find a job because you're essentially too expensive and overqualified for the job you do, but under-qualified for higher level positions. And you lack the contacts necessary to make it easier to find another job.
If you're fundamentally unsuited to the job and are not interested in it then you will fail. In that situation nobody wins!
As for the change in hours - presumably you'll be getting "on call" pay, overtime etc? Or are they just trying to piss you off and make you leave?
Make sure your resume is up to date and start looking elsewhere anyway.
My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?
Badly. I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company. In that role I got pulled into budget battles, which are normal, relationship management with partners, also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game, which means a lot of meetings with the auditors. Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy. You can see where this is going. I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just didn't seem fair. I got a nice bonus and severance, plus my options were golden, but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.
In that scenario you'll be unhappy if you do a bad job or if you do a really, really good job. You'll put in a lot of extra hours, do a lot of extra traveling. There were some perks I miss. The secretary, the expense account, the $1,800 bar tabs, meetings on the golf course, the membership at the club and the options I cashed in. Those eased the pain a bit. But it doesn't sound like you get any of those perks.
Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"
After getting burned the first time, the next gig I went back to being a head down developer and stayed in my office, only coming out for coffee, to urinate and to feed. I built three critical systems and was the only person the client wanted to work with. I was that guy in Office Space. I turned down promotions, turned in paperwork late, stood up mandatory meetings, re-wrote my performance eval when I didn't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable. Sometimes because I genuinely didn't like them, other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick. Wish I had that one to do over. But I got away with it.
So all you have to decide is which job would you rather have? As a manager, at some point you're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet. If you're okay with that decision, then go for it.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Organizations sometimes like to promote good performers until they are out of their depth.
i'm kinda sorta joking here.
But as most people are saying here, it comes down to what do you want to do? Do you want your hands dirty or to wear a tie? Neither is good or bad unless you dislike which ever you are doing. Don't make the choice based on money. It might not be worth the raise.
If you want more money, get a financial education and get it that way. If you must work, strive to do something you enjoy (even if it doesn't pay as well).
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
This sounds like SOP for ThePlanet.
I make it clear to my management that I have no interest in going into management. Some of them are OK with it. Some of them are frustrated with it.
It is the good ones that are OK with it. They know that I know what I want.
There is some reason you are being offered this different job. Are you good at what you do? Does your management know you are? If that's the case, and you don't want to go, you say no. If you're good, they won't fire you
If you stink at what you do, maybe they are promoting you to take a fall at something you'll fail at miserably. It's possible.
Look, I don't know your situation, but you need to consider the future. Are you topped out in terms of salary in your current position? Also, what is your salary if you take the promotion, and where does that job's salary top out? And how old are you?
You may be thinking that your current salary is fine, but, as you get older and take on more responsibilities, that paycheck starts to look really inadequate. And I know you really love IT, but now you will have a chance to learn a whole new set of skills, skills that will look good on a resume should you end up hating the new job. You may end up finding a new employer that needs someone with both IT and management skills.
I've turned down 3 or 4 promotions like this and have always kept my job.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, however. At some point you may wish you took the promotion. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have. I guess it depends on what you want to do for the rest of your career. Management is not necessarily a bad thing to have on your resume.
That's what I'm doing! I decided my current career path (software engineer) will inevitably lead to this fate (management), so I am taking the bull by the horns; I am going to law school. I figure that if I am going to hate my job, I may as well make a crapload of money doing it.
I became a manager by accident once. Trying to get a few people trained up to take over my "unique skill" so I could quit without leaving clients of 8-9 years in the lurch. Within a month, I wasn't training them, I was managing them. And hating every minute of it. I once spent an entire week doing nothing but prioritizing workloads, shifting schedules, handling exceptions, facilitating communication between subcontractors and government agencies, attending meetings [shudder], etc. without doing a single piece of actual work myself. The next week, I started making a point of doing at least one project a day myself just to do it. (Yes, I understand that what I was doing was very important and kept the workload of an entire department flowing smoothly and efficiently but it wasn't the kind of work I was hired to do or the kind of work I wanted to do.) Before I could get around to actually quitting, the company shut down. When I interviewed for new positions, I didn't mention management on my resume and didn't bring it up unless asked. When my current boss interviewed me, he seemed concerned that I might be after his job because someone with my years of experience is generally getting ready to make that transition if they haven't already. I assured him that I had wasn't interested in his job. I'm good at what I do and I enjoy doing it as long as he does HIS job and insulates me from fools and meetings. So far, it's working out just fine.
So are you the guy who likes to DO things or the guy who likes to facilitate the activities of others, improve efficiency, direct future development, etc.?
I'm not an anonymous coward, my name is Karel, just don't feel like I need to register for 1 reply.
If you're going to do "administrative tasks and management" for a group of highly educated IT professionals, then go for it, no question about it. You'll be in close contact with them (that's up to you) and will have the chance to keep your hand on the pulse.
If you're going to do the same for smiling guys at the other end of the world, then change your employer. There are companies that already understood the fact, that "cost saving" is not the right solution for their IT issues.
You won't keep your tech job, sorry. It will go to half educated idiots in India, whether you like it or not. (My personal experience.)
Don't play the family card. Very, very few employers take kindly to that. If your work is valued and you trust your boss (you've worked with him or her for several years now, right?), tell them the truth. You really enjoy the technical parts of the job, feel it's your forte, and that - quite honestly - 4 tens is a big benefit for you personally. This may get them to tip their hand as to why they want you in management. Do they need a good tencnical lead, or are they just short handed. Do they feel you'd be better in a manag. position - i.e. your technical work isn't in line with their expectations but you're a good employee?
Making the move is more about why they're moving you than anything else. If you really like the tech support say so. Know that your financial advancement may slow or stop in the company, and that in a year or two you'll be looking for an advanced position somewhere else. Consulting isn't really a viable option if your allergic to management and 5x8 with a pager the other times - it's a combination of both of those. Then again, if they really need a tech guy in management, it might be your opportunity to keep climbing and make sure things run smoothly in the board room instead of the server closet.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
More than likely, this is the beginning of the end for you there. I was in a similar situation a few years ago and I declined ("I'm good at managing technology. Not people!"). While I was able to keep the job for a few more years, I wasn't in the loop anymore and raises and bonuses ceased. PHBs spend their emotional energy trying to climb the ladder and have an innate distrust of folks who don't think like they do. I mean, why would someone want to stay on the assembly line making widgets??
First, you need to know why they picked you. Is your current position going away? Do they think they are doing you a favor? Does putting your salary in the mgmt column ease some budget pressure? Are they trying to make you quit to avoid paying severance and unemployment (this is my first guess)? Knowing the 'why' will clue you into what your bosses reaction will be when you tell him you don't want the job. It should be pretty simple to decide what to do once you know the 'real' reason for the 'offer'. Just make sure you don't show your hand while digging for the truth of the matter.
If you determine that this situation IS the first nail in the coffin, then your sole objective needs to be "Extend the death process until you find another job.". In my situation, declining the offer kept me in the job a LOT longer. A LOT!! I'da made maybe 4 PHB circle jerks before twisting off and being escorted out. You may be able to control the urge to strangle kittens when confronted with mindless office politics. I am not.
So, find out if your answer has the potential to end the relationship completely. If yes, give them the answer they want to hear and spend every waking moment after that trying to find a new job (Note: smaller companies are better fits for people who want to advance but stay on the tech side). Also, pray to the god of irrationality that the jobs package being touted actually produces jobs.
Good luck!
p.s. If you decide to take the management position, can you provide and email where I can send a resume?? ;)
Developer(9 years) to IT manager (2 years). Now I am a developer again. Politics, paperwork and procedure did/do not engage my brain. After a year I was appalled and waited for one more year to make my escape. Much better role now.
Or, avoid being unemployed by telling them that you _strongly_ prefer your current job, but that you care about the company and want to do what is best for the company, even if it means doing another job.
If they decide to make you a manager anyway, at least you will be drawing a paycheck, instead of unemployment, while you look for a new job.
A good company knows this about techies and will plan accordingly. Some have 'Senior Tech' positions designed for people who do not care to enter the administrative side. I know of one company that treated their Field Engineers this way. The boss would say, "Are you interested in eventually moving into a management position, or are you committed to to the technology? I have training money to spend on you and I want to spend it the right way." Unfortunately, the FE in question told me, "I told him what he wanted to hear." That's too bad because I knew both guys, and I believe the senior regional manager was absolutely sincere in what he said.
Certainly the Peter Principal can apply (The solution, which is rarely mentioned, is "Creative Incompetence."), but I think it is easy to be short-sighted here. The question is not where you want to be in five years, but where you want to be at age 60 or so. If you can raise your family, pay for your kids' educations, and retire securely doing your tech thing, by all means go for it. But if you need to get better situated in order to do that, you'd better plan ahead.
My advice here (I'm 60 and retired securely) is to not blow off management just because you've got attitude and a PHB. Management can be a very fulfilling role. You're responsible, but you get to call the shots and point the direction. It's not going to happen unless you make it happen. It can get very political, but if you're as smart as you say you are, you ought to be able to make it work.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Yep, experienced people with technical skills are still not that easy to find,...
Everyone I know who's looking for technical help is getting swamped with resumes from qualified people. It's just a matter of weeding them out.
Starting looking for a new job right away, and when you leave, do NOT give any notice. Just leave that same day, to spite them. However, tell your new employer you need to give them 2 weeks' notice (because it looks bad to the new employer if you don't), so instead of working at the old place for 2 weeks, just screw them and take a 2-week vacation.
I see. So, you're saying he should lie. It will probably catch up with him one day and if he's like me, he may be a terrible liar.
That wasn't very good advice to give.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Hi Timothy. It seems like your role is evolving [as it should] within the company. Usually, this is good news, but this is news of concern to you. What part about this 'promotion' bothers you the most? The work hours? Not being able to do tech work? Or the challenge of having to manage people/projects more actively than your current role? I think once you get through some introspection, you can better figure out what you want to do about it.
Personally, assuming this is really a promotion [and not someone's attempt to pin me to a dead end], and unless there was a burden to my family/kids in the new shift, I would embrace it and see where it takes me. It's not only an important and beneficial learning experience, but if you think of the long term, this is where you need to be.
Perhaps you are one of the few that are genuinely passionate about the work they do, and you eat/breathe every little project you work on. But if you're not, you can't stay technical lead forever. You'll need progression, and your company is offering you that chance to move forward. If you snuff this now, and you still keep your job, chances are that you wont get another chance unless you leave the company. Not only that, but this current company will likely not leave you a good reference as a candidate for more advanced roles that require more responsibility.
I've done work on both sides, and the managerial side can be difficult and challenging at times. It's different work, but at the same time, it's rewarding to be able to run a team that can accomplish many more things than i can on my own. But I guess to each his/her own, no? =)
That said... you're certainly entitled to refuse, but office politics make this a sticky issue right? To avoid it, go back to the aspects of the promotion that you don't like, and see what can be negotiated. You want to keep doing tech work? As your company to let you spend one day out of the week to keep your hands dirty in the projects. This can be beneficial to keep managers grounded in whats going on. You don't like the on-call hours? Perhaps instead of going into the office when being on-call, ask if you can work remotely. You may not get everything you want, but you can certainly negotiate and see what you can get to ease your transition.
At the end of the day, think of this as not only your opportunity, but also your company's opportunity to grow through you. They've entrusted you to take on extra responsibility, what will you do? Good luck Timothy!
I had been with this company for 2-3 years when my site/location shut down. Fortunately for me my company has many clients, but not many of them had open positions. So when it was time for me to pack up and go elsewhere (in the company) I wasn't given many choices as to where I wanted to go. So after reviewing what they offered me, I understood that it really wasn't a choice at all. But more than anything it benefited my company and manager (of where they were pushing me off to).
So what it really comes down to I think, is weighing the benefits of taking such a position. I had stayed close home for several reasons (personal), and that is why I had never taken a better paying position that was considerably further. But where I ended up works out ok, is about the same distance from where I was at before, but takes a lot longer to get to. The pay is slightly better, traffic a lot worse, environment the same (great coworkers), work load is a little weird. Before, I was busy but doing other things, here I am fulfilling a role that is not mine to do. That could do me good some day as being offered employment by the client. So, all things considered this is acceptable for me.
But it comes down to how much do you value your time? Are you willing to give up your free days to be on call? Is the pay worth it? Having had the same schedule (4 x 10 and on call) I didn't mind it. But then again I was younger, single and getting great money for what I did at the time.
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
Seriously people, is it that hard to read a summary?
He is being asked to come to a new position that will be 5 days a week
"RATHER THAN" 10h x 4days + on call.
What the hell? It seems that everyone who read it, read it like a 2nd grader.
How many managers do you know who are on call? really? that many?
Like others have mentioned, see if you can get compensation for the extra time / new responsibilities. If not take the job and do what you have to. Just consider yourself fortunate to have a job. And remember, it's a lot easier to look for a new job while you already have one rather than if your unemployed.
That is sort of the unfortunate thing about moving up the ladder is the higher you get, the less work you actually do and the more managing of others you do. Some people prefer to be the ones actually outputting work, while others don't mind getting paid a bit more and doing less of the day to day stuff.
"During My Service In The United States Congress, I Took The Initiative In Creating The Internet." -Al Gore
Most techies got into technology because they prefer the (relatively) determinate interactions with computers over the dramatic shenanigans of people. Remaining in a pure dev role is attractive precisely because it provides an arena with a minimum of interpersonal BS in which discrete goals can be achieved based on a known system of parameters. Management is a whole other story, it is presumed, because it's all about politics and nothing ever gets achieved except the occasional back-stab.
Having transitioned from development to management myself, I found it to be just as (if not more) interesting than development, mainly because I was still solving problems (resourcing, behavioral, budget-related) but the parameters were more complex and, most importantly, the experience was applicable to real-life scenarios that extended beyond the technology realm. So the question really comes down to: are you willing to make yourself uncomfortable for the purpose of growth?
In "useless exercise" you have control over what kind of weight you can put on and in what time, therefore avoiding physical injury. You do NOT have that choice when you are giving "useful labor". I used to have an abusive supervisor requiring all of us to carry minimum 50lbs from time to time. Now he is gone, I can go back to my max capacity @ 10 lbs.
I mean, how can you expect a East-Asian-football-superstar-striker-turned-tech-support be carry > 50 lbs? I don't born to play American football. I play the other football.
New Economic Perspectives
I was asked to move from a webmaster/developer role to an Oracle DBA role around 1998 when one of the DBAs left. At first, I said no because I felt it restricted my career path .. there are a lot fewer DBAs than Webmasters, and at the time the field was new enough that experience in any single environment wasn't as critical as it is now. They countered with 'what would it take', so I requested a 20% raise.
....
.. it was babysitting mostly. The icing on the cake was when one lady came in and told me 'Pam doesn't like me'. I wanted to tell her to shut the fuck up and get back to work, but you can't do that today.
... sucks.
And got it
Less than a year later I left the company and went to a job where I was an HPUX admin/Sybase DBA and commanded an even higher salary.
Change can be good....
A couple of years ago I applied for a management job in a 4,000 employee company and took it without a raise in pay. I hated it
After a year of that I took a job with a local company as a developer, and accepted a 10% cut in pay to work for a 50 person, family run business. I love my job now and am good enough I rarely put in more than 40 hours/week.
I learned from experience that I am willing to do a job I don't want as long as I'm paid well for my misery. And I'm willing to take a dream job for less money as long as I enjoy going to work each day.
But taking a job I don't like for pay that doesn't make it worthwhile when there are other options
Choose wisely my friend....
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
You said a new manager. Is this the only manager? Is this YOUR manager? That makes a difference. Does EVERYONE need to be on call 24/7? See about setting up schedules. If there is 7 of you then each of you take one day a week to be on call and you rotate the days. There are ways to work around things.
As far as getting promoted to management - no you don't have to take a promotion. You can say "I appreciate the offer to increase my responsibilities, power and money but this will take me away from my passion in life and that is to do XYZ. It will also hinder my ability to grow with this constantly changing field and eventually leave me ill-prepared to deal with new technologies". This is a nice way to say "no i don't want to be an office-jockey dickwad". If your company is reasonable they will respect it and no harm done - again most people are not unreasonable. If they are not then promptly update your resume' and look for a company that wants people to do a good job and do it for a long time...It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but many companies out there hate it when their employees - who are amazing at their jobs - turn and say "Oh i want to be promoted out of my work for something better"...now they have to find a replacement.
Even with 10% unemployment there are plenty of jobs.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
when you leave, do NOT give any notice. Just leave that same day, to spite them. However, tell your new employer you need to give them 2 weeks' notice (because it looks bad to the new employer if you don't), so instead of working at the old place for 2 weeks, just screw them and take a 2-week vacation. Obviously, they have no respect for you, so you shouldn't show them any respect in return.
Let's hope that none of his future employers want to speak to this one where he spent five years of his life. Especially if the first place he goes doesn't work out and it's over after a few months.
The OP was asking about basically moving from Administrator to Engineer. Less hands-on responsibilities and more documentation and organization responsibilities. I was just offered such a position, punked out and took it because I'd rather be an employed punk than an unemployed martyr.
a different role oriented towards, 'administrative duties and management.'
Sounds like someone's read the legal definition for overtime exempt employees recently.
If you're already working over 40 hours a week and not getting paid... they're just covering their bases incase you ever discover the protections you've not taken advantage of so far.
If you're not already working over 40 hours a week without overtime... start practicing holding your ankles firmly and I recommend a water based lubricant.
They finally realized that there are some technie types who are very good on the technical side and who were able to significantly contribute in that way.
While moving into management might have its compensatory and political benefits, it's no longer a hard requirement for advancement. I love that I have an option. :-)
hard for me to be sympathetic about the on call bit, since I've been on call for most of my 21-year career...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
The answer sort of lies in what your goals are and what the position requires you to do. Personal Anecdote: I started off as a lowly PC tech in the IT industry back in the 90's. After working several years in the field, I moved on to another company doing basically the same job, but with opportunity to advance. After a few years, I was given a Tech Lead position. This was great, but the company wasn't doing so hot so I left to work at a tax company (rhymes with clock). Not soon after joining that company I was basically forced into a management position and I hated it. I didn't hate it because it was management, I hated it because the company forced me to treat my employees like dirt and my director was actually insulted by my tech knowledge and I was barred from using it. I decided to look for a new job and because of my tech and management experience I got another Tech Management position...this one I loved. The company totally embraced my knowledge and experience and allowed me to not just be a boss, but also a mentor and resource for my team. Without that previous management experience though I would never have been able to get the job. Yeah, it sucked for a while, but in the end it was totally worth it.
I mean... you're probably not going to do a good job since you're not going to like, or maybe even understand, the role. If you're going from Technical to Managerial, it's not a promotion, it's a career change. Unfortunately, few people on either side of the fence realize this, and your boss was probably one of those people.
In larger or more established companies, managers take a lot longer to develop. Maybe this quick transaction from intern to manager explains why so many smaller companies tend to get run into the ground...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
"I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards, 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"
Don't fight it, go with the flow. People with great technical skills and great people management skills are difficult to find and retain.
Spend a year in the management trenches and do the best job you can. Try to earn an award for being the best manager in the company.
After that your resume is made of solid gold.
Someone with technical skills who knows how to deal with management (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.
Someone with management skills who knows how to deal with technical people (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.
The company is "forcing" you to become a more marketable employee?
Take the opportunity and run with it!
>a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards
If you "have to", I guess you know the answer already.
The question then is "are you happy doing management stuff instead of technical stuff?"
Years ago, I accepted a management promotion (at the time, it was the only way to get more money from that company). I discovered that I hated all the budget/review/meetings stuff. I ended up keeping all the technical stuff (I never replaced myself) and just did both jobs. But that didn't really work out and I ended up moving to a new company for a tech only job. It did teach me that I didn't like management positions much and since then I only do tech work.
As far as oncall goes, the last couple companies I worked at had the official policy of "your oncall 24x7, 365". But if you work at a decent shop, there aren't that many calls to begin with and if you have decent co-workers, it is easy enough to cover each other (either officially thru rotating oncall or unofficially by telling the person calling you to call coworker X instead if you are unavailable/busy).
But I agree with previous posters - it sounds like your company is planning on outsourcing/offshoring the tech groups and will only retain the managers...
The risk is in what happens after you're in the non-technical role for a few years. In my case, with the marketing job, it was in the early 1990s and I ended up missing the transition from DOS and C to Windows and C++, because I was no longer doing any technical work. Yet, I didn't have an MBA, and was never good enough at marketing to be able to make the kind of money I wanted when I moved to another company.
You can imagine how the interviews went when I was trying to get C++/Windows jobs, which was the shiny new thing back then.
So, my advice is that, like a chess game, you have to think a couple moves ahead and figure out what your choices will be like in 3-4 years. What will this admin job prepare you for? Who do you know who has moved into a better role after doing this type of job for a while? Are you going to make friends in the industry in this job or just piss off the people you're supposed to be keeping tabs on? Does this role tend to be filled on a revolving-door basis by recent ex-techies who can leverage their old skills or do people stay in the role for a while?
I think you're reading this one right. I would add that since this guy seems to be technically adept, it might be that his company is looking to get tech support with
having to pay those pesky overtime rates.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
I've turned down a few management positions because in the few times I have said "yes", I've only ended up to realize I've doubled my responsiblities without doubling my compensation. So far, I'm 13 years into the IT business and I'm happy to be a non-manager every single day. Not sure what I'd do if I couldn't work hands-on with technology.
Get a good reading if you want to decline the promotion without declining it.
Some of the other posters gave good reasons, e.g. less risk of offshoring. In addition:
1) You might like. If you don't try something new how would you ever know?
2) It looks good on the resume. Being thought of as a "one trick pony" or a "drone" makes it harder to get a job in a tough economy.
3) Logistics, planning and organizing can be technical challenges in and of themselves. Explore the topic of "operations research" and you'll see what I mean.
Two things to watch out for:
1) You need control of you department and
2) make sure it is mostly management and not so much administrative.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I wasn't forced into it, I demanded it, but I guess that only makes for different paths to the same position. I like it. You add 20-30% of administrative tasks to your daily routine that you can't avoid, but the rest is your time to manage. You can be as technical as you want, or non-technical as you want. You're the one distributing the tasks, so you can take stuff that you want to work on, assign things that you don't. You're never going to be your own boss in a company that you don't own, but at least being a manager in one gets you closer to being in control, especially if you have a good working relationship with your next level manager.
Of course, this might be just the way our company is structured... we don't really have a technical lead type of role -- the managers are both people and technical leads. If you want to stay on purely technical track you become an "architect", a sort of a technical adviser to the managers.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
Managing IT has nothing to do with doing IT. Once you make this move, you may have a tough time going back. You will find yourself too busy working to continue learning. The job can be very stressful and not very intellectually stimulating.
Being responsible for other people's problems/mistakes/personal issues etc. is no fun. Making more money will not make up for it.
If you really want to make more money, switch to a new company. No matter how bad the economy is, it's still tough to find talented people. I doubt very much you will be shown the door if you refuse the offer, but if it comes to that, so what? Are you going to lose a pension or something?
There's no reason to be immature when you leave a company, whether it's your choice or not. Behave with class even if you're truly pissed, and don't bitch about how pissed off you are/were when you're interviewing either - nobody wants a whiner.
If you leave on good terms, you may be able to use those folks as a reference beyond "Yes, Joe was employed here from 2005 to 2009." If you leave people dealing with a festering pile of crap because you were being pissy, that time range is the *best* you should expect to get, and you may get worse. Remember, just because you're jumping to a new job doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to last. Odds are fair that once you're established in an industry you're going to stay in that industry or a related one because that's where many of your networking contacts are and they'll help you find future jobs. That means you're going to run into people you've worked with in the past.
A friend has closed product development consulting contracts because he did a favor for someone 10 years ago and that now-senior-executive remembered him. Be that remembered person.
If you're being laid off, this is even more important. When a site I was at was closed years back (and I declined the opportunity to relocate), I got thanks for being professional and helpful with closing things down, documenting, etc. I had no problems at all with listing those folks as references, because *they were happy with me.*
Basically if the payoff for being pissy is to make you feel good for 15 minutes, just go have a beer with friends instead. You'll feel just as good, and it may cost you less in the long run.
fencepost
just a little off
Managers are on call to make up for employee slack.
They get paid a salary, and they end up on call in case one of their employees babies is stolen by a dingo, or something else happens which results in the employee unavailable. The concept is called coverage, and applies not only to sales people, but to anyone who needs to answer to a pager, a cell phone, a BlackBerry, or is otherwise critical to the business because someone has to be ultimately responsible and fix things when problems arise.
You also have to consider that the costs of an additional person are way out of whack with the TCO for an employee. Your salary accounts for ~1/3 of the cost to the employer for having you around, if you count facilities and energy costs and taxes. This is only going to get worse as taxes go up to cover the costs of government spending on things like the war in Afghanistan and on universal healthcare. So it's a lot easier to increase responsibility at the cost of a small increase in salary and some title inflation than it is to hire more people.
I also expect that other posts in this thread are correct, and that you've been selected as someone to keep on the payroll prior to a pending round of cost-cutting and/or outsourcing.
A "best case" scenario is this is to put you on the hook for the end of the year holiday season.
In situations like this it's generally best to see which way the wind is blowing, and keep your options open, including the option of alternative employment.
Yes, I know people who have quit over being told their vacation was cancelled.
-- Terry
I must be one of the rare lucky ones. I'm a senior network architect at a relatively large software company that's into buying other companies from time to time. Back before getting bought, I had transitioned into a management role for our small team mostly because someone had to fill it and I was the most experienced. At the smaller company I was able to balance the technical role with the managerial role quite easily. It was a small team with good people so the managerial overhead was perhaps 25% of my time.
Once the big company bought us it became clear that their management job track philosophy was a bit different than the small company. There wasn't any overt "you have to only focus on being a manager" message, but there was a lot more ... stuff to do. I guess it comes with a bigger hierarchy. All of a sudden I was bogged down in meetings and paperwork that didn't make a whole lot of sense for a 3 to 4 person team run by a tech guy. It wasn't that it was useless stuff (for the most part) but I was clearly into the tech side of things and I didn't have a 10 person team to manage that might benefit from all this overhead.
Luckily big company realizes this happens and was happy to move me back into the senior technical position. No change in salary or benefits or anything. Just a lateral transition really with the knowledge that I tried out management and didn't really like it. Going by the other responses here though, I think I was lucky in this instance.
Saying no isn't really that difficult. Remember though, that doing so will pigeon hole you away from being given similar opportunities in the future. I'd recommend talking to your supervisor and someone who is currently in a position similar to what you're being offered, and discuss the duties expected. Treat it like a "mentoring" opportunity and make sure they understand that you are treating it as such. If they feel you're seeking long term career advice (whether you take the position or turn it down) they're far more likely to view the situation favorably. If you decide to turn the position down after weighing it a bit, make sure they understand you would still like to be considered for opportunities in the future should they arise.
As for being forcibly put into an effect 7 dahttp://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/08/1759224/Saying-No-To-Promotions-Away-From-Tech?art_pos=2#y a week work schedule, I'd say no, with or without compensation adjustment. I won't work for a company that tries to do that. If they need people to work those hours, they should hire more people. Other people have different opinions about that though. If it's a very temporary thing, I'd consider it, with a written understanding that my time would be compensated either financially or with similar time off in the future when the "on-call" requirement can be met some other way.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
When I faced this choice I decided to interview at couple of companies for a technical role. This allowed me to evaluate what alternative technical job options I had in the area and compared that to the managerial job that I was being offered.
I think this scene from The Godfather best describes this post:
Johnny Fontane: A month ago he bought the rights to this book, a best seller. The main character is a guy just like me. I wouldn't even have to act, just be myself. Oh, Godfather, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do... [All of a sudden, Don Corleone rises from his chair and gives Fontane a savage shake]
Don Corleone: YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN! [gives a quick slap to Fontane]
If you don't want the promotion, don't take it. If you think it may cost you your job (highly unlikely) factor that into your decision. Just don't be a little wuss about it and post a thinly veiled, rant about how mean your boss is under the guise of asking for advice.
Ok, here's the secret. Know that really surly coder guy that smells funny, eats at his desk, won't answer his phone, has weird facial hair, and is the stereo-typical software developer? Management and ambitious types will say "He'll never move up." and "that's the type of guy who will never go anywhere." They'll never consider him for management, but they'll keep him as long as he keeps writing good code for a decent salary.
Meanwhile, you can wear your sandals and DEFCON/Hawaiian shirts because you're eccentric. You can miss meetings because you are terribly busy. You can ignore your phone and email because you are focused on your coding. You'll get hassled a bit every now and then, and you'll probably never make any real money, but if you just love what you do, just do it well. It helps if you throw in a little harmless absentmindedness every now and then, like sticking two pens in your shirt pocket, one behind your ear, and asking everyone you run into that day if you can borrow a pen.
The Wikipedia article doesn't contain the advice he's referring to. Peter advises using Creative Incompetence if one wants to avoid an unwanted promotion and stay in a niche. Creative Incompetence is an act that disqualifies you from the promotion but doesn't disqualify your current position. For instance, Dr. Peter once found himself in a meeting where they sprang a promotion to Department Head on him. While appearing to consider it, he walked to window and used a magnifying glass to light his cigar then sat back down. Peter called coming up with a suitable act of Creative Incompetence Peter's Bridge. An excessive display gets you fired and an insufficient act gets you promoted anyway. The cigar lighting worked because a bit of mild weirdness was tolerable in a faculty member but not in an Administrator.
I worked a year-and-a-half for a Fortune 50 tech company, and in Management's infinite wisdom, they decided to replace MY support position with a TEAM of 8 Indians. I had 15 years of solid experience in a specialty area, and they had ME train the Indian team which had ZERO exposure whatsoever to the specialty area.
I told the company that I would gladly renegotiate my rates to be amicable to everyone, if they would keep me on instead, but no, the "initiative" to move support to India was s done deal.
The company continues to struggle, I have moved on, and am now happily employed by a local firm that gladly keeps all of their employees and support state-side.
As a manager I tend to think if we have a scenario in which a plan is not in place then yes you need to call me.
If it is for a stupid reason for which I get called then you at least get the enjoyment of ripping any shred of dignitity that person had. If it is a reasonable question then you did not provide adequate planning / training / resources for the task.
One thing of caution if your higher food chain likes to have hourly meetings with piles of paperwork ect. I would look for a different job as you just hit the ceiling at that company.
Last downturn I was offered management positions in my corporation twice over a year, and I declined both times. I would have gotten a modest salary raise, a less than modest increase in workload, and lost many technical skills i had in the process. I'm still here (as is the person who ended up saying yes).
If you are valued, then they will value you no matter where you are. You can trade the fact that you are more expendable on the bottom of the pyramid, with the fact that you will may have more useful job skills (I suspect there are a lot more middle-management types out of work, then technically skilled individuals).
Lots of responses here, probably many more intelligent than mine, so let me try to sum up. Here are the things that matter in this equation:
1. Job Satisfaction (clearly you expect to have this decline if you take the job)
2. Job Security (clearly you expect to have this decline if you DON'T take the job)
3. Job Performance (it sounds like you expect this to decline if you take the job)
4. Money (given the economy, this may or may not change if you take the job)
5. Experience (clearly if you take a new job you'll get more job experience than if you tried to stay in the same role)
Lots of things to think about here. Obviously, if job satisfaction is most important, then you know what to do. However, if job security is the most important, then you again know what to do. Etc etc. However, the point is this is a short-term view. In order to make the right choice for yourself, you probably have to take the long-term view.
Is it worth it to take the management job and push paper for a few years, hopefully bridging you through the bad economy, getting you experience in management so that you are more hire-able later on, potentially leading to more money, a better job, and increased job satisfaction? You could certainly make that argument. But if you go that route you have to maintain the long-term view and keep in mind that you are essentially interning as management to increase prospects later on, keep yourself abreast of the latest technology on your own time, and most importantly, when later on becomes now, ACT on that.
You could also make the argument that if the technical role is extremely important to you, then you need to stick to it so that you don't unintentionally transition into a job you're going to hate. I would argue that working a job you hate is only marginally better than not having a job at all.
I worked at a place that had 2 "tracks"-management and technical, and you picked one and advanced along that track. That's the best of both worlds I suppose; it's worth being aware of that sort of arrangement when finding a job if job satisfaction is high on your list.
Do something bad enough to get demoted, but not so bad that you get fired.
As a Brit now working/living in the US, one of the cultural differences I encountered was that in the US, management is really considered a promotion/reward from an engineering position.
Don't get fooled by the image. You need to be aware that management is NOT a promotion, especially if it doesn't come with a pay rise. Its actually a profession change that requires a completely different skill set than what makes a good software developer. It makes no more sense to 'promote' an engineer into management than it does to 'promote' a plumber into banking. If you're popular at work by being a good engineer it may come as a real shock to realise that you're actually now only a mediocre manager.
The other wierdness that I found in the US is that apparently most recruiters think Engineers technical skills are only as good/relevant as your last job. Like they think you can ever forget C++ or whatever. This means that your decision about whether to accept a management role at your current company means you are actually making a fairly binding career choice. It may be a lot harder to get another hands-on job if you have no recent technical experience.
I guess it comes down to whether you chose to study engineering just as a step to moving into management, or whether (like most of us) you're acutally a geek who enjoys it for its own end. As a self-test to determine whether you really want to be a manager, ask yourself if you'd rather be programming or working with Microsoft Project all day.
I'm from the UK, not the US, so take this with as much salt as you think it needs. Note: I'm not a developer, I'm a sysadmin, and sysadmin salaries are generally lower in the UK.
There are two ways of looking at this: first, you look very seriously at moving on. Let's face it, if you can refuse this job your days at this place are likely numbered.
Second, you see it as an opportunity. I don't know about where you are but in the UK there is a very definite ceiling to how much you can earn without going into management. If you are already at or near this ceiling (and if money is important to you), this basically gives you a job with "manager" on your CV without all the hassle of looking for a new job and interviewing - at a time when the economy's not exactly doing that well.
Well, if it is 24x7, I would immediately demand 2 extra weeks paid vacation per year, and a tier one health plan.
(No deductables for anything, including prescriptions.)
After just 2 years of 24x7 calls, your health will be a lot worse. Lots of studies show people who do not get good nights sleep have a DOUBLE the cancer risk, psychological problems and get the flu way way more often than people who get a good nights sleep.
Second I would demand a health spa at the place of work, cardio vascular machines, and a shower locker room facilities simply because rushing out of bed, and going to work and not looking professional if the on call brings you into the work day, is unprofessional on your employers part.
Finally, of course, I would demand a night premium for all 24x7 calls serviced.
I due 24x7 support for companies for $120 and hour on the weekends, and $100 an hour on the weekdays.
If you make less that that per hour, I would say NO WAY.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
I had a chat with a fellow from Accenture about advancement in his organization. Not only did he say there was plenty of room for it, but it was required. In certain technical categories if you didn't move up the food chain they would terminate you.
I faced a choice under different, less immediate, and better circumstances. I had to choose between a career path that lead to management, and a career path that lead into a narrow technical specialty. Make sure you understand the fork before you.
My observation has been that once a company tries to push you into management, you either go into management or your career path will suffer. Time in position, rather than age, is what prompts most companies to see "failure to advance" where employees may see "comfortable in position." Starting over resets the clock, somewhere else.
To be fair, companies look at these long term employees, see the amount of organizational experience, and want to leverage that by promotion. Realize that these are very common pressures, and you'll likely encounter similar circumstances repeatedly over time if you choose to remain below management.
That said, taking the plunge into management might allow you to take your career to another level. If you fail, you'll probably be looking for work, but that's about the same likely result as staying, with more money and more experience on the way out. Failure under these circumstances will have very little effect on your ability to land another technical job, and might insulate against future attempts to promote you out of your comfort or skill zones.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
Maybe the $1,800 bar tabs were a problem too?
My job changed around me over the past several years. It is still defined as technical, but I only do 10% of actual technical, touch a server work. The rest is all administrative, change management, processes and procedures.
As we are told when expected to answer the phone at any time, any day of the week - "It's part of the job."
Geez, I miss the 90s where techies wrote their own ticket and businesses thrived.
I don't know what sort of responsibilities they give the 'Tech Lead' in your company, but you might offer to compromise, and do some sort of mentoring program or run other training for the others in the group ... so it's not quite management, but not solely tech.
The other option is being a supervisor, without being a manager. So, you're then responsible for watching over the people, doing evaluations, maybe assigning people to tasks as needed ... but all of the budget issues and most of the meetings with executives are handled by someone else. You might get input into hiring and firing, but the ultimate decision would go to the manager.
Of course, then your manager gets replaced, and suddenly you're working for a complete tool who doesn't understand the relationships in the office, and you might run into some personality conflicts which prompt you to resign, or they try to force you to resign (not understanding that 'constructive discharge' violates the right-to-work provisions)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I hated management, and was bad at it. The people under me suffered. Not because I was a mean person, or power hungry, just because I was bad at it. I moved jobs to a technical role and love my job again. If I were you, I would start looking immediately. Good luck.
Hi,
for a detailed advice, there are too many parameters missing. So i have to stay on the general track:
1. Your wording seems to indicate you don't have a choice. The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.
2. My personal opinion: Every technical guy should try management at least once. Even if you hate the job, you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.
3. Management is an ungrateful job: You can do everything for you subordinates, they will not thank it. If you stay in management, your job satisfaction must have a different source.
4. If you find not be suited to the job: Pull the plug yourself. Don't wait for anyone else to do it. The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.
Have fun, Martin
P.S. My path was: Programmer -> Consultant -> Director -> CEO -> Sales. While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs, nothing beats sales. Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.
Tell them "no", and turn the job down. If they fire you, start your own consulting business.
"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong" and "On call" is code for "We own you and every molecule of your time." If this is a high profile job, you won't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage, which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate.
In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has. Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess. They may also fire you, but the job sucks anyway, so you haven't lost anything.
"We need you to work this weekend."
"No. I don't work weekends"
"We need you to take over this doomed project"
"Sorry, I don't accept projects with little chance of success."
Your life can only suck as much as you're willing to allow it to.
On call for what, emergency meetings about requirements documents or SLAs? :D
But seriously, if you enjoy the tech don't move away from it, not everyone wants to go sit in meetings all day, and they should find a way to let you advance and stay in the technical realm, or at least keep giving you raises/random title upgrades to keep things interesting.
Your salary accounts for ~1/3 of the cost to the employer for having you around, if you count facilities and energy costs and taxes. This is only going to get worse as taxes go up to cover the costs of government spending on things like the war in Afghanistan and on universal healthcare. So it's a lot easier to increase responsibility at the cost of a small increase in salary and some title inflation than it is to hire more people.
I don't know where you come up with the 1/3 figure, but where I work the fully burdened cost per employee is 1.28 * salary. Most of that is benefits and employer paid taxes. Facilities charges are only a few thousand per person.
It's due to management believing that if you make X amount of money, you are supposed to be in management.
Which tells you that the management is bad, and you should not be working for the losers anyway.
This belief on the part of management is bad for the company. Digital Equipment Corporation had a solution they called dual-track. You could elect to work your way up the management ladder or up the technical ladder. At the highest level, the technical ladder would get your picture in the annual report, along with top management. Salaries were also similar, and you got a lot of respect throughout the company.
Don't get a job where the high point of your day is eating two fucking donuts in the morning. If they don't let you keep your current job, tell them to kiss your ass. Then go do something else.
I've managed people in the past, and it struck me that Management should really be a support role. My most valuable contribution as a manager was making sure my people understood what was expected and getting them the information and resources they needed to do their best work. This involved a lot of spreadsheets and scheduling, which had nothing to do with the job I was promoted from (mechanic). The second most valuable contribution was protecting my people from the whimsy and downright predation of higher management, who felt that their purpose in life was to crack whips and make sure everyone below them knew they were being watched.
I once (many years ago) had a manager like that. He was able to find me an IBM System/360 model 40 with a paper tape punch in Detroit so we could recompile our application. Is your company hiring?
Most managers are not on call.
If so, what's the crackberry for? Ever noticed that the middle management are chained to those things, yet the upper management aren't?
I'm sure the reason the Burmese junta are still in power is because Aung San Suu Kyi doesn't have your willpower. Shame on her!
And if that guy standing in front of the tank had swung his shopping bags with a little more determination China would be a democracy by now.
You don't even know what I'm referring to, do you? You soft little trust-fund wanker.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Unless the technical area you are working on is core to the company (basically a company in IT) the career path always leads out of technical work. This is just like they say the best researchers are under 40, after that a faculty member moves into committee work and other admin for the university, as well as applying/managing grants, which again is basically a management job, not a technical job. It is perceived by management that what they do is more vital than tech work, so that kind of job is supposed to be sought. Anymore IT in a company is turning into project management.
I work hard, do a good job and people enjoy working with me. I have solved a lot of problems.
I work 4 10s, no weekends and rarly on call. If I am on call I get paid extra.
Yeah, it's a government job. The work isn't really challenging.
I do get to enjoy life.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If I was you, I'd be getting this whole situation documented in an email trail or something and then back it up to a USB stick and keep it. I don't think they are allowed to fire you for turning down a promotion. If they do fire you, go to your local Labor Board and file a complaint. Companies look REALLY REALLY bad when they have a record of firing people for something that they aren't allowed to fire them for, then hit the papers, local news ETC. Also, don't be afraid to tell them you're doing it. Sometimes companies can have a big change of heart once they realize their good reputation as an employer is on the line. I've cornered a few employers in the past when they tried to pull illegal bullshit. It works out well. And if they still fire you, then who cares, they aren't the kind of people to be working for anyways. At interviews make sure that when they ask you why you left, you tell them the honest to God truth. "They fired me for turning down a promotion", any employer worth a damn is going to find that totally outrageous.
at every place i/ve worked (as a programmer), i/ve said at the interview that i had no interest in management, and was there any job path into more technical programming areas ? every manager said 'yes' at the interview, only to back off after i was hired, and to only offer promotions towards management. i/m on disability right now (epilepsy), but am looking back at the market, perhaps to jump back in. i will *not* go to any job that leads to management (and, well, i/d prefer a job that had *no* management !).
- r
I used to be in a position with a rotating on call schedule. Someone was always on call, but I was only on call one weekend out of five. The problem with being on call is that you are not allowed to drink alcohol as you may need to drive somewhere in an emergency.
If your employer expects you to be on call every day does that mean they are effectively barring you from drinking? It would take a very large paycheck to put me in a position where I could never enjoy a beer with dinner again...
But in the end it boils down to a personal decision about what you want to do with your career and whether you want and are ready for a management position. I wasn't forced but attempted it twice and was able to successfully back away from it. I work for a small shop so they were unwilling to let me go due to my experience. The first time I found that the boss was a shitbird that I was unwilling to sell my soul to. The second time my boss was unwilling to allow me a full transformation so essentially I had a managerial and technical job at the same time (and didn't really do a great job at either). Fortunately I got a technical job back - not what I was originally doing, but interesting enough to keep me engaged and happy. What I learned: I personally am a technician and hope to remain such until retirement. You'll probably find the first years of management very unfulfilling if you enjoy systems analysis and developing code. My favorite way of explaining it: most low-level managers are shit passers: upper management has a raft for you to divide and sprinkle on your subordinates; and eventually your subordinates will give you a wad to shine up and pass back up. Neither of these activities is very fulfilling. With only 5 years of experience it sounds like you've come a long way. Bet you enjoy the thrill of accomplishment - that sense of inner satisfaction on a job well done. I was only a manager for about 2 years. Never had that feeling the whole time. So if you have an MBA; really want to be a CIO some day; and are willing to risk becoming technologically obsolete go for it. Otherwise I'd polish up the resume and start looking.
And it's even more cynical corollary (the name of which I cannot recall):
When you find packs of blithering idiots in organizations always look up the org chart until you find the lead idiot, that fucker is your problem.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
http://www.xkcd.com/664/
I started as a service tech (degreed engineer however). Over the years advanced to engineer and technical lead then on to operations manager. I lasted 6 months as management. I am now an electrical engineer for another firm. I couldn't handle not being in the technical role.
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
I made the switch. I went from the manager of a tech support desk to what was promised to be more of an administrative role. I was layed off 3 months later. I advise against it. In my opinion, they've probably decided you make too much money (what happened in my case), so they're going to pass off your duties to someone who makes less. Then they can eliminate your new position and tout it to upper-management as an extraneous position and a cost saving measure, thus screwing you without kissing you first. No reach-arounds either. Good luck on that.
They are asking you to do two separate things, each of which is worth money independent of the other.
First, management is a lot of responsibility. I don't remember who said it, but he was a rich guy, and he said "I would rather own 10% of something than manage 100% of anything". So if I were not getting a major raise for moving to management, I would turn it down. Remember to look at both sides of the equation: there may be more pay and benefits, but there are downsides too: you will be responsible for making sure other people make money for the company. If they don't, you could get blamed. That is no small thing. So make sure the compensation is sufficient to justify taking on the responsibility and headaches.
Second, you are being asked to be on call all the time. That is a major sacrifice (sorry for the repetition of "major" but it's true). It doesn't mean just maybe having to work more, it also means arbitrary disruption of your family life, or whatever else you may be up to when you are "off".
A lot of companies pull this kind of thing when they switch someone from hourly to salary. When I signed up to work for an engineering company, someone who had been there a while said "Watch out. If you do well, they will offer to make you a salaried employee for a substantial raise. But then they will work your ass off, resulting in lower pay per hour." Just watch out for that kind of thing. If you know anyone else in a similar position there, ask them what it's like. AND ask for money for being on call, in addition to whatever you get paid to manage.
Sure enough, after being there a while, I was offered a "promotion". They offered to give me a substantial raise. I told them, "I will take the promotion, and the raise, but I want it in equivalent hourly wages. I will work hard for you guys, but I want to be paid for every hour I am here."
Thanks for helping me out Slashdotters!
Shout outs to the following people who gave me enough insight or a good enough laugh to cut and paste their names into this post:
Fritz T. Coyote
BlueKitties
fred fleenblat
mzito
puppetman
TrentTheThief
Foxxxy
HangingChad
Locke2005
Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:04 (#30368772)
mschuyler
ecotax
Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:17 (#30368952)
tool462
Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:27 (#30369058)
johnlcallaway
furby076
bensode
Duhavid
drakaan
Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:43 (#30369288)
pauls2272
Fencepost
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DerekLyons
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k'orwyn
Check back in a few months and I'll let you all know what happened.
-lunchlady55
If your company is into the business of selling software stick to Technology.
If your company is into the business of selling services move to Management.
Cheers,
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Do you want to be a manager? Some people take to this, some don't. That you are asking the question here makes me think that you either don't want it, or aren't ready for it.
What are the duties? Do you want to do that?
One possible answer: "I don't feel ready for an administrative role at this time. I would like to remain in my present position for 2-3 more years."
I have seen people get sucked into a job they hate because of the pay, and then get trapped there because they think they are addicted tot he pay. I have cleverly negotiated a 66% pay cut over the last 4 years, but now I'm my own boss. I sleep to 7:30. We don't miss the money.
To me 5 day week and on call would be major losses. Be sure you get it nailed down what the compensation is for both being on call, and for responding to on call. If my wife and I are in town on an on-call day, we either have to travel in separate vehicles, or she has to be ready to either wait for me or come in and pick me up when the problem is fixed. It means I can't go hunting,hiking, canoeing -- anything that takes me more than a few minutes further from the city.
I currently live an hours drive from the city of Edmonton. If I were on call:
1. two hours wages at overtime rates for each on-call shift.
2. 1.5 hour response time.
3. Company picks up fee for cell phone.
4. Connectivity to solve IT problems remotely -- they pick up the charge.
5. If have to go in, they pay for my travel time + 25 cents per kilometer.
6. At least 50% of my weekends have no on-call shift.
7. As a bargaining chip: 1 more day paid holiday for each three on call days.
8. I can specify 10 days per year that I cannot be on call: Wife's/kids birthday, aniversary.
9. Certain family time holidays the remuneration is at 3 times standard wage. (Christmas...)
10. If I am in charge of uptime, I get a yearly bonus based on how few times someone had to come in to fix something. And I get a reasonable equipment budget to inplement that failsafe system.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
I am going to guess you are not in the valley.
Here is a 2003 report that indicates non-green buildings put the TCOE (total cost of employee) at about 200% of Salary in non-green buildings:
http://www.usgbc.org/Docs/News/News477.pdf
You are also not including transportation reinbursement, offset contribution to public transport (mandated for businesses with more than a small number of employees in California), and other costs, such as RSUs, stock options, employer contributions to benefits, matching on 401K plans, amortized costs for a 3 year lifetime on multiple computers per employee (I cost ~$4,000/year there) and other costs (mileage reimbursement for someone who lives in SFO and commutes to SJO can go as high as ~$10,000/year).
-- Terry