Swiss Geologist On Trial For Causing Earthquakes

Hugh Pickens writes "BBC reports that Markus Haering's company had been working with the authorities in Basel, Switzerland to try to convert the heat in deep-seated rocks into electricity, but the project was suspended in 2006 when drilling triggered earthquakes, one of them with a magnitude of 3.4, leading Haering's company to pay out $9M in damages. Haering's team planned to drill a series of holes penetrating up to 3 miles (4.8 km) underground with water being pumped onto rocks with a temperature of more than 195C. Basel's location on top of a fault line – the upper Rhine trench – had been deliberately chosen because the heat was closer to the Earth's surface. A risk assessment has since shown that the prospect of further quakes is too high to continue drilling in the city. Haering faces up to five years in prison if the judge finds he intentionally damaged property. Haering has admitted the 3.4 magnitude earthquake was stronger than he had expected and that his team 'had very little knowledge of seismicity' before starting to drill, but called the quakes 'a learning process for everyone involved.' Despite Haering's trial, the Swiss appetite for geothermal projects has not diminished. Engineers are beginning preliminary drilling in Zurich to see whether that area was suitable for a similar scheme, and St. Gallen, in eastern Switzerland, plans to start work on its own geothermal project next year. Drilling efforts are being closely watched in the US, where the energy department is sponsoring more than 120 geothermal energy projects in several states."

Comments

Blahgh

[MightyMartian]

Hey, gotta break a few eggs (and dishes) to make an omelet.

Re:Blahgh

[ccarson]

Agreed. We're all human and can't expect to be perfect. A pessimist would view this as wreckless where as an alternative approach view is to acknowledge this a constructive step toward an alternative energy source.

Re:Blahgh

[NotBornYesterday]

I try not to be pedantic, but slipping and using "wreckless" in the case of earthquake damage is ironic.

Re:Blahgh

[Rei]

Basel is EGS's "Altamont Pass". Altamont Pass was a wind farm that gave wind turbines their (undeserved) reputation as being bird killers. They built a wind farm right in the middle of a bird flyway, using low, fast-spinning turbines. It was a learning experience; nobody would be stupid enough to do that again.

It's the same thing with EGS and earthquakes. In Basel, they deliberately fractured an active fault that had previously destroyed the city. Nobody is going to be dumb enough to do that again.

Re:Blahgh

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

You mean: "You can't make an omelet without killing some people..."

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no sense crying when you make a mistake; you just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Re:Blahgh

[nschubach]

I makes me wonder... I'm no geologist by any measure, but there's obviously pressure built up in that area. Wouldn't drilling holes to break holds and release some of that plate pressure by causing smaller quakes be a preferred course of action? Would it either be that or waiting for one giant major natural shift that could cause even more damage?

Re:Blahgh

[contrapunctus]

So if the government wants them to make an omelet and company breaks some eggs, is it all the company's fault or does the government bear some responsibility?

Re:Blahgh

[dumuzi]

Aren't you being pedantic by saying that you hate to be pedantic. And then by continuing in your sentance to be pedantic you are now culpable of pedantism squared. You sir commit pedantary redundantly.

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

continuing in your sentance to be pedantic

Clever! But I will not be so easily lured into your trap.

Re:Blahgh

[pileated]

When it comes to being dumb, never say never!

Re:Blahgh

[svtdragon]

Nobody is going to be dumb enough to do that again.

I bet somebody once said that about people rebuilding cities on top of active faults.

Re:Blahgh

[cyphercell]

This is a neat idea. You could even schedule the things so they are the most convenient. Like inducing labor!

Re:Blahgh

[Applekid]

Would it either be that or waiting for one giant major natural shift that could cause even more damage?

No good deed goes unpunished?

If you leave it alone and a natural disaster happens, you can't really sue God. If you drill and make mini-quakes and someone's windows break, you can definitely sue the driller.

Re:Blahgh

[digitalunity]

I respectfully disagree. After living in the pacific northwest and experiencing numerous earthquakes firsthand, I can say with some authority that any structure built in a tectonically active region that cannot safely handle a 3.4 magnitude earthquake was built improperly.

There were several 3.5ish earthquakes in Oregon where I lived over the last 20 years and as far as I know, broken picture frames were the extent of the damage. Geothermal energy production only makes sense in places where volcanic or tectonic activity is likely. It's not without risk either.

It seems obvious that there was no intentional earthquake caused, but that was the natural result of fracturing the fault and 3.4 hardly sounds noteworthy. However, more detailed seismic study seems warranted before moving forward with any such project in the future.

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

Said the chicken?

Re:Blahgh

[NotBornYesterday]

Pedantic nitpick: That isn't being pedantic, that's being redundant.

Re:Blahgh

[davester666]

Wasn't there a fairly big (but crappy) movie about 15 years ago where the bad guy drills into a fault line and then pumps in a bunch of water to cause an earthquake?

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

if by omelet you mean one made with human foetuses.

Re:Blahgh

[box4831]

If you leave it alone and a natural disaster happens, you can't really sue God.

No, but you can put in a coupon for a McDonalds McFlurry into the collection plate instead of the usual fiver next Sunday...

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet somebody once said that about building residences below sea level in a hurricane zone too!

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a ticket to sell you, it's for a majestic voyage on a ship we call 'Titanic' - it's unsinkable!

Re:Blahgh

[geminidomino]

It was 25 years ago, and it was "A View To A Kill" (A James Bond movie)

Re:Blahgh

[techno-vampire]

I can say with some authority that any structure built in a tectonically active region that cannot safely handle a 3.4 magnitude earthquake was built improperly.

I live in Southern California, near Los Angeles. Around here, at least, magnitude 3.4 quakes are hardly worth mentioning. Instead of fining this company, the city should thank them for the object lesson they provided about why you don't ignore well-known earthquake safety techniques when you're building over or near a fault line.

Re:Blahgh

[zoloto]

The next thing you know, they'll be doing it next to volcanoes.

Re:Blahgh

[camperdave]

Superman? No, wait! That was a nuclear weapon detonated on the San Andreas fault.

Re:Blahgh

[DriedClexler]

I bet somebody once said that about people rebuilding cities on top of active faults.

No, you have that mixed up: someone said that about rebuilding a city below sea level, not an active fault.

Re:Blahgh

[Runaway1956]

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
        Albert Einstein

Re:Blahgh

[afidel]

Exactly, how does a 3.4 damage *anything*, there was a 3.3 here is Ohio back in April and I don't think anyone really noticed. The 1986 5.0 knocked me out of my seat in grade school (I was leaning back on two legs) but the only damage I recall was the separation of cinderblocks in one classroom causing the paint to crack, don't think they even bothered to repair it as it didn't present any kind of risk.

Re:Blahgh

[maugle]

In fact, the city should be grateful. Much better to have a magnitude 3.4 quake now, than to let the stress in the fault line accumulate until it breaks out in the form of a magnitude 8.0 quake.

Re:Blahgh

[geekoid]

As some who has read reports of the many thousands of birds that are killed in CA from windmills, I would say tis not an uns=deserved reputation. And all types of birds, including raptors.

There are several studies on the state of California website.

Re:Blahgh

[similar_name]

If you leave it alone and a natural disaster happens, you can't really sue God. If you drill and make mini-quakes and someone's windows break, you can definitely sue the driller.

Makes me wonder. This is not the first time it's been believed that drilling triggered an earthquake. How long until you can sue because the city didn't pay for drillers to relieve pressure and major earthquake occurs.

Re:Blahgh

[Petrushka]

I can say with some authority that any structure built in a tectonically active region that cannot safely handle a 3.4 magnitude earthquake was built improperly.

Well, it depends on how deep the quake is. If it's of any depth at all, you're not going to notice a 3.4 quake even if you're standing on the epicentre. But if a 3.4 quake were to happen, say, 20 km underfoot, you might have issues. In many ways the perceptual scale is a more useful human measure.

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

You wuss. I live in the desert and we've had to of the largest quakes in recent California History. Landers at 7.1 and Hector at 7.3 and the only thing I had damanged was my peace of mind when the S.O ran screaming out doors because the shaking. Me, I didn't even bother worrying about the 14Lb. bowling ball precariously perched on top of a bookcase at the end of my bed. Even the dogs knew enough to simply sleep through it. Afterall earthquakes are a fact of life in California. Nice thing though was the damn noisy neighbor finally moved. He'd had enough with the quakes, so he moved to Buffalo, NY and now has to put up with blizzards and long power outages.

Re:Blahgh

[steelfood]

This is Europe we're talking about. Some of their buildings are probably two thousand years old.

Re:Blahgh

[techno-vampire]

I live in the desert and we've had to of the largest quakes in recent California History. Landers at 7.1 and Hector at 7.3

Quakes at that level are real E-ticket rides, aren't they? I was less than five miles from "ground zero" for the Northridge Quake at a gaming party that was just starting to break up anyway. Five minutes or so after it ended, we finally got the front door to the apartment open and we could still hear the swimming pool sloshing, but there was no damage except for the stuck door. I only realized how bad it was when I looked up and saw more stars than I'd seen since I was in Tonkin Gulf in '72.

Re:Blahgh

[budgenator]

In fairness it was a magnitude 3.4, the amplitudes in one of those can be confused with a semi-truck going 35 MPH hitting a pothole in front of your house. 3.4 earthquakes are described as minor and Often felt, but rarely causes damage. I've never been to Switzerland but if they build like the Germans it's homes built out of mortared bricks without reinforcing and more more susceptible to seismic damage than would be expected by North Americans.

Re:Blahgh

[gmhowell]

Nobody is going to be dumb enough to do that again.

I bet somebody once said that about people rebuilding cities on top of active faults.

Or rebuilding castles in swamps?

Re:Blahgh

[budgenator]

FTA

However it was unlikely to activate the major fault line that runs beneath Basel, which led to a huge quake that devastated the city in 1356. Switzerland geologist on trial for 'causing quakes'

My guess is at least some of the "damaged" buildings were around 653 years old.

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not only the magnitude that matters when considering potential to cause damage, but also the depth and proximity to built structures, amongst various other factors. In this case water was pumped into rock at high pressure, causing the rock to fracture - the goal was to heat the water and pump it back out. The company who did this said that at worst this process could case "microquakes", a term given to a type of earthquakes that do not exceed about 2.2 on the Richter scale. The fact that counter to these predictions there was a sequence of many quakes over a short period of time, many of which surpassed this limit, with three greater than magnitude 3.4 in as many days, clearly indicates that the people involved did NOT understand the tectonic effects and hence the risks involved. Remember, it is a logarithmic scale ...

If you make a prediction and are proved wrong, by more than an order of magnitude, you did not know what you were talking about in the first place.

PS: I saw the damage first hand. No injuries, but plenty of damage to facades, etc. I'm told it sounded like a bomb.

Re:Blahgh

[iamapizza]

True, but after this trial, his career's going to be on the rocks.

Thank you, thank you, I'll get my coat.

Re:Blahgh

[Anonymous Coward]

And they say the LHC won't swallow our planet with a synthetic black hole... :-D

Re:Blahgh

[Rei]

Hello... Altamont Pass *is* in California....

California got to the wind farm game early, and screwed up the reputation of wind turbines by bad placement and inferior tech.

Re:Blahgh

[lxs]

"Bird killers" makes it sound so evil. Call them "Automated Dinosaur Culling Devices" and public acceptance will soar. Open a KFC underneath preferably with a large net on the roof and the natural cycle will be complete.

Re:Blahgh

[RevRagnarok]

I bet somebody once said that about people rebuilding cities on top of active faults.

Or below sea level (New Orleans).

Re:Blahgh

[vegiVamp]

I especially liked the use of "constructive step".

Re:Blahgh

[DarthVain]

Or on land next to the Ocean, that is actually below it.

Re:Blahgh

[Thing 1]

I try not to be pedantic, but slipping and using "wreckless" in the case of earthquake damage is ironic.

I really loved that old game Life when I was kid. You could get married, have babies, get a job -- and there was also a penalty for "wreckless driving". That card always cracked me up.

Re:Blahgh

[Reziac]

Actually, no. SoCal gets shallow 3.x quakes all the time (the shallowest I happened to notice on the USGS map somelone linked to above was 9km), and frankly most of the time you don't even notice them.

Just for comparison (and remmeber Richter is a log scale): About a year ago there was a 4.2 practically next door and fairly shallow, and all it did was make my monitor bobble on its stand for a few seconds. And at the time of the 6.8-to-7.0 (depending who you believe) Northridge quake, I was living only about 10 miles away from the epicenter, and tho it jolted my trailer pretty good, slopped water out of a bucket, and threw some small stuff off a shelf, it did no other damage. It cracked a wall in the badly-neglected 60 year old adobe house next door to me, but that was the total damage for the entire neighbourhood.

Remember that Swiss buildings have to cope with snow load and frost heave, so they can't be built too wimpy. I'd guess it would take a 5.0 or better, directly underfoot, to do any damage that actually needs repair.

Methinks the villagers are taking the opportunity to get repairs made on stuff that's been broken for a long time... blaming a quake they would not even have NOTICED if the news media hadn't informed them about it.

Re:Blahgh

[Power_Pentode]

Actually, no. SoCal gets shallow 3.x quakes all the time (the shallowest I happened to notice on the USGS map somelone linked to above was 9km), and frankly most of the time you don't even notice them

9km, eh? I used to laugh at people who made a big deal out of a 3.0 quake. Then one night there was a lowly 2.8 quake about 300m from my house (might have been directly under it, depending on the location quality). The depth according to the Pacific Northwest Seismic Network was 0km. It was certainly nothing like the M5-M6 quakes I've experienced, but it woke me from a deep sleep and got my immediate attention. I can't imagine how it would feel to be directly above an M6.5 or M7.

For all anyone knows, the M3.4 quake in Basel might have relieved stress that would otherwise have accumulated and flattened the town with an M6 20-30 years from now.

Re:Blahgh

[Reziac]

Well, yeah, right on the surface would be like having an 18 wheeler drive *through* your living room rather than down the street out front :) Even so, I wouldn't expect it to do more than rattle things a bit.

Considering that Basil WAS flattened by a quake some 600-odd years ago, and sits directly atop a fault line, yeah, a little stress-relieving might not be a bad thing. Tho as some point out, stress relieved HERE sometimes adds stress over THERE, so it's not a highly predictable improvement, and maybe not an improvement at all.

Still, methinks those folks are just seeing free home upgrades for old damage, probably mostly from frost-heave, which cracks a whole lot more stone, concrete, and plaster than quakes ever did.

Re:Blahgh

[RockDoctor]

In Basel, they deliberately fractured an active fault that had previously destroyed the city. Nobody is going to be dumb enough to do that again.

Without having RTFA (it's opening in another tab as I type), as a geologist I'd say that you've got to add several significant caveats to your "nobody is going to be dumb enough" assertion:
- the destruction of Basel, late 15th century IIRC, was something of a surprise to all concerned, and something of a fluke ; the area didn't (and doesn't) have much of a record of vigorous seismicity (compared to California, for example), and the destruction of the city was IIRC mostly by lake tsunamis generated by a relatively modest quake.
- define "active fault", please. One that has had quakes on it in the last decade? or the last century, or the last millennium, or the last ten thousand years? Human lifespans are not really long enough to well address this question, because the Earth can and does operate on much longer timescales. If the last significant quake on the Basel fault had been a mere millennium ago, would we even have sufficient historical records to even be sure that it was a quake? If the last significant quake was 5000 years ago, one could make a reasonable case that it was a response to the stresses of deglaciation of the Alps, and thus unlikely to recur ; it would be very hard to argue against such a claim and would require a lot of detailed (i.e. expensive) field investigation to refute it.
There could well be people drilling test wells in what we don't know are seismically threatening areas, and they simply wouldn't know about it.

OK, I'll RTFA now. [...] Hmm, very little detail. I'd guess that what risk assessment work they did, and what the Swiss government's risk assessments are, would be major features of the evidence to be presented. There may be a case to be made for "reckless conduct" (i.e. not making any reckoning of the risks), or there may be a case to be made for having been wrong in the quantification of the risks involved. The former would, rightly, be reprehensible. But if a risk assessment had been made that resulted in them taking out insurances for (say) 20M, and they found themselves paying out 9M, then you (or their lawyers) could make a strong defence that they had indeed reckoned the risks reasonably.

(Yes, I am a geologist. And I've now got to go to a risk assessment meeting for a few hundred thousand dollars of equipment rental.)

Here we go...

[Philotic]

I doubt the geologist is at fault. However, his defense rests on really shaky ground.

Re:Here we go...

[catmistake]

They obviously forgot to employ sheep's bladders for earthquake prevention. Quite an oversite as this technique has been around at least since the 6th Century A.D.

Re:Here we go...

[Jophish]

He isn't really at fault here.

Re:Here we go...

[momerath2003]

whoosh...

Re:Here we go...

[nschubach]

Fault: (geology) a crack in the earth's crust resulting from the displacement of one side with respect to the other; "they built it right over a geological fault"; "he studied the faulting of the earth's crust"

/sigh

Re:Here we go...

[hashax]

There should have been a preliminary Haering as there isnt enough evidence against him.

Re:Here we go...

[interkin3tic]

I doubt the geologist is at fault. However, his defense rests on really shaky ground.

Yep. Now he's feeling the heat, and has got to be quaking in his boots.

Re:Here we go...

[steelfood]

I doubt the geologist is at fault.

Yeah, but he one the one who caused a rift in the community.

*ducks*

Re:Here we go...

[Maxo-Texas]

Double Whoosh!

Re:Here we go...

[VocationalZero]

But so does the prosecutor's brief case.

Re:Here we go...

[ystar]

"Moria. You fear to go into those mines. The geologists dug too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum...lawsuit trolls..."

Re:Here we go...

[Bogtha]

Even if he is, it's understandable. He's working on ground-breaking technology.

Re:Here we go...

[DigitalPasture]

Earth-shattering even...

Re:Here we go...

[metlin]

And quite wreckless, if I might add. I bet he is quaking in his boots, though, what with the lawsuit and all.

Re:Here we go...

[mysidia]

Thankfully the prosecution also rests on really shaky ground.

Re:Here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay the Boeing Dreamliner can fly! I just heard it do a flypast...

Learning process?

[Anonymous Coward]

We learned that causing earthquakes costs 9 million dollars and a 5 year stretch. I had always wondered.

No, me! ME!

[Dr. Eggman]

Blast it, I failed the broadcast take over announcing my intentions for world domination! It was my demostration of my earthquake machine! me, me ME!

Re:No, me! ME!

[mujadaddy]

On a related note, this guy is going to be looking for...less-than-legitimate... geological employment if things go wrong for him. Just sayin'.

Re:No, me! ME!

[corbettw]

Calm down, Dick. Why can't you just go do some motivational speaking tours like your buddy George?

Re:No, me! ME!

[lxs]

On the plus side, he can call himself the Quake Master now.

Damages?

[Blakey Rat]

These villagers were scamming the poor guy. $9 million in damages from a *3.4* quake? Cripes, a bus crossing in front of my house is close to 3.4... either their houses are made from eggshells, or this is the scam of the century.

I'd feel terrible if useful research was suspended because of profiteering townsfolk.

Re:Damages?

[borrible]

Village? Basel city has a population of about 170'000 (close to a million with the surrounding area) and is home to some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world (Ciba, Novartis)

Re:Damages?

[NotBornYesterday]

I wonder if they had anyone from Iceland consulting on this. They have lots of geothermal heating and power generation there on a geologically active land mass, but AFAIK, they've avoided triggering earthquakes.

Re:Damages?

[HolyCoitus]

Seismic scale for Europe?

I know nothing about Europe or Seismic Scales... But, if that is correct, then WTF?

Re:Damages?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd feel terrible if useful research was suspended because of profiteering townsfolk.

I'd take that over profiteering governments any day.

Re:Damages?

[fracai]

Village? Basel city has a population of about 170,000 [...]

There, fixed that for you. Damn commas, always jumping around and hanging upside-down.

Re:Damages?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd feel terrible if useful research was suspended because of profiteering townsfolk.

I agree, but thats exactly the situation we have nowadays.

I myself live near St.Gallen, and I really hope they aren't going to stop doing science just because some people are afraid of it. But unfortunately, science is extremely unpopular in todays consumer society, and our government doesn't care enough to make any real progress.

Re:Damages?

[NeutronCowboy]

Not to mention that we can't predict when an earthquake will strike or what magnitude it will be. Yet here they are, claiming that he willfully damaged property? I can't even fathom reckless disregard for safety in this context, but willful destruction? Can I sue palmreaders for willful damage of my self-esteem?

Re:Damages?

[Rei]

This is a different tech than most of Iceland's geothermal: EGS. Most of Iceland's geothermal is from natural reservoirs (although Iceland is starting to move in the direction of EGS, too).

Re:Damages?

[Anonymous Coward]

IV. Largely observed: The earthquake is felt indoors by many people, outdoors by very few. A few people are awakened. The level of vibration is not frightening. Windows, doors and dishes rattle. Hanging objects swing.

I am sorry but I have a hard time seeing how you get $9 million worth of damage from something less than this, seriously, did $9 million worth of fine china rattle together and chip?

Re:Damages?

[scratchpaper]

Not to nitpick, but structurally, eggshells are incredibly strong. Ok, that was totally to nitpick.

Re:Damages?

[SwedishPenguin]

In most European countries, 170,000 means 170.000. ' is a perfectly valid delimiter.

Re:Damages?

[Blakey Rat]

The only person at fault here is the local building code, if they let people inhabit buildings that can't withstand anything less than a 5.0 on the Richter. (Assuming that the people who filed for damages actually had damages... which I highly doubt.)

Re:Damages?

[Peregr1n]

Some parts of the world are more used to earthquakes than others, and plan accordingly. I'm guessing (from a quick glance at your blog) that you're in the USA - western? Your houses are probably designed to be quake-proof, and a 3.4 quake will do nothing but rattle your plates. Here in Europe most housing is traditional stone, and earthquakes are something that happens in far-flung corners of the Earth.
Disclaimer - I don't know how severe a 3.4 quake is, maybe it really is inconsequential - but my point still stands in that it probably caused the residents of Basel to shit themselves. (Far from villagers, too, BTW)

Re:Damages?

[Chris Burke]

either their houses are made from eggshells, or this is the scam of the century.

Eh, not really. 3.4 may be a fairly trivial earthquake, but $9 million is a pretty trivial amount for total damages to a decent-sized city from an earthquake. You don't need very many office buildings with broken windows or extremely old (and thus not in any way quake-proof) buildings to be slightly damaged across a city to equal $9mil. If the epicenter was nearby, and it sounds like it was, then that doesn't strike me as unreasonable and certainly not a matter of profiteering.

Re:Damages?

[Chris Burke]

The GGP wrote "170'000", not "170.000" or "170,000" though. I'm not aware of anyplace that uses apostrophes for delimiters. :)

Re:Damages?

[Chris Burke]

I can't even fathom reckless disregard for safety in this context, but willful destruction?

If he had reason to believe that his tests could cause an earthquake, yet proceeded anyway, that's willful. It doesn't matter that causing destruction wasn't actually his goal. You can't get away from the consequences of your actions -- in particular those you were aware of in advance -- by writing them off as "undesirable side-effects" or "collateral damage".

Though in TFA he says those involved in the project had "very little knowledge of seismicity", which could make this fall into the category of willful negligence. I'm no geothermal power expert, but it's for that exact reason that if I were going to be drilling right around a seismically active area that I'd want to make sure I had someone who had "knowledge of seismicity", like say a seismologist, hanging around. Having something unforeseen happen as a result of your actions, because you didn't do the due diligence to foresee it, is negligence.

Re:Damages?

[jrumney]

I grew up in an earthquake prone zone. The threshold for rattling plates is at least 4.0, maybe even 4.5. Real damage doesn't really occur until 6.0, maybe 5.5 in areas where houses aren't built for it. And the Richter scale is logarithmic - 3.4 really is inconsequential, most people wouldn't even feel it.

Re:Damages?

[SwedishPenguin]

Apparently it is widely used in Switzerland, and I've seen it used many times before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator#Arabic_numeral_system

Re:Damages?

[Chris Burke]

Which happens to be the country in question. Well I'll be.

Re:Damages?

[Blakey Rat]

I don't know how severe a 3.4 quake is, maybe it really is inconsequential

FEMA (for kids! Sorry it was the quickest result on Google) sez that earthquakes below about 4.3 on the Richter scale cause "no damage": http://www.fema.gov/kids/intense.htm Remember, it's a logarithmic scale, so a 3.4 is almost 1/10th as destructive as a 4.3.

I honestly believe that an 18-wheeler or tour bus passing in front of my house would cause significantly more shaking than a 3.4 quake. I don't have a seismometer in my house to prove it, alas.

(Far from villagers, too, BTW)

Yes, yes, I apologize for my ignorance of geography. But my point remains, and is valid-- these people are scamming the poor guy.

Re:Damages?

[ChameleonDave]

I'm not aware of anyplace that uses apostrophes for delimiters. :)

Plenty of places do. The point, however, is that the English language does not.

Re:Damages?

[polymeris]

That's an intensity (subjective) scale. They said magnitude (I assume Richter).

Re:Damages?

[couchslug]

"Here in Europe most housing is traditional stone, and earthquakes are something that happens in far-flung corners of the Earth."

Such as Turkey...

Re:Damages?

[GreatBunzinni]

You failed to realize that similar incidents already caused devastating results. So, a 3.4 earthquake now may be much of a disaster but that doesn't mean that sort of stuff can't be extremely damaging.

Re:Damages?

[Blakey Rat]

The earthquake that started that mud flow was a 6.3. That's about 1000 times more powerful than a 3.4.

Re:Damages?

[Tuqui]

Causing a small earthquake could save the city from a bigger one. Releasing the energy in small part is better than a big shake once.
He should be considered a hero.

Re:Damages?

[bill_mcgonigle]

If the epicenter was nearby, and it sounds like it was, then that doesn't strike me as unreasonable and certainly not a matter of profiteering.

I don't know the geology of the area, but it seems so unlikely that the city proper was the only place along the fault to do the experiments. It should be cheaper to do them some distance outside the city even.

Re:Damages?

[macshit]

I don't know how severe a 3.4 quake is, maybe it really is inconsequential - but my point still stands in that it probably caused the residents of Basel to shit themselves.

It seems very unlikely, as a 3.4 quake is extremely weak -- like a truck passing. People may have noticed it, but It's hard to believe they shat themselves or had property damaged (even minor damage like glasses falling off the table is unlikely).

This basically sounds like people are simply scared of what they think might happen ("tampering with mother nature!" and that sort of thing), and are abusing the law to shut this guy down.

Re:Damages?

[mczak]

In theory at least public buildings should be quake-proof - not quite sure to what degree, but certainly earthquakes with a magnitude above 4 aren't quite unexpected in that area. In fact there was a 6.5 earthquake at basel - not that much was left of it after that but that was in 1356.
There were however 2500 damage reports, which explains the 9 million. That's not really much per damage report, it'll quickly cost quite a bit to for instance repair some superficial visible crack in plaster. And yes, there are strong doubts all of the damage was actually caused by that earthquake...

Re:Damages?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but Basel City is apparently built on a fault and was once largely destroyed by an earthquake hundreds of years ago.

Re:Damages?

[mysidia]

I'm sure lots of things got blamed on "the quake" that were just coincidental.

How do you prove it was the neighbor's kids baseball that broke the window and not the quake?

Not to mention the X thousand people whose electronic device, such as computer hard drive coincidentally happened to fail sometime the same time of day as the quake.

Or the 100,000 or so people who were startled by ground shaking and dropped something... each claiming $30 or so in damages.

Re:Damages?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a kid in the San Francisco Bay Area, we had a swarm of little magnitude 1.0-2.0 quakes directly under us. They were shallow quakes and actually felt quite violent, with a deep rumble and one sharp jolt which made houses bang like a drum. The wood houses were fine, but one 1970s subdivision had many brick chimneys fracture at the roofline due to insufficient (below code) reinforcing bar in their construction.

Re:Damages?

[GreatBunzinni]

It appears you failed to read the article. The only people who claim that the mud volcano was caused by the earthquake are the people from the drilling company and those with financial ties to the drilling company, in order to avoid paying compensation. Geologists, on the other hand, state that the May 2006 earthquake was merely coincidental, that the intensity of that earthquake at the volcano's area was only magnitude two and that what triggered the event was the drilling operations.

Re:Damages?

[Xest]

It really is inconsequential.

We had a 5.2 magnitude earthquake in the UK back in 2007 and the worst that happened is one guy got a broken pelvis because he lived in a really old house where the chimney stack fell through, but that was one injury across the whole country. Other than that, about the worst that happens is the odd chimney stack (that was probably dangerous anyway) topples or a few tiles fall off people's roofs.

We have earthquakes of around 3.4 a few times a year in the UK and no one even notices. We had a 3.7 back in the first half of this year and it wasn't even newsworthy.

Far from shitting themselves over this, I'd be amazed if the majority of people even noticed the quake rather than simply put it down to a plane flying overhead, a truck driving past their house, if they even noticed anything at all.

Even houses not designed at all for earthquakes would almost certainly suffer no damage from such a quake because even heavy wind will likely put more stress on such a structure than this would.

Re:Damages?

[Blakey Rat]

Yah.

I'm wagering there were $0 in claims before the news of the earthquake was published in the local newspaper.

Re:Damages?

[hesaigo999ca]

I have to agree, anyone living in California usually gets so used to anything below 4.0, it does not even register any news.
If any damages occur, it is the person's fault for not properly preparing for the event, as it is now a common daily event over there. The fact that they are saying 9millino in damages, I would say either a lot was downplayed by their gov. and hidden and need some payback for doing this, or he is getting scammed by politicians hoping to pocket a lot of the money.

Re:Damages?

[Reziac]

If a 3.4 is literally right under your house, you'll get a little rattling, akin to a heavy truck going down your street. (I live in an active quake zone, we get them all the time.) If it's a few miles off, you might get a slight vibration. At worst it is very unlikely to so much as shake stuff off shelves, tho it may make an unsecured cupboard door swing open.

But I've never seen a house built so poorly that a 3.4 quake *could* damage it, and I wouldn't expect damage even if the house was wattle-and-daub.

As to Swiss houses, they are built to withstand a considerable winter snow load, and I'd guess the walls and foundations also need to withstand a lot of frost heave. Snow load/frost heave cause a lot more structural stress than any quake below about 4.0 or so, even were said quake pretty much right underfoot.

Re:Damages?

[Reziac]

From TFA:

"However it was unlikely to activate the major fault line that runs beneath Basel, which led to a huge quake that devastated the city in 1356."

Methinks their faultline coincidentally shrugged, and the research dude makes a convenient scapegoat. (Aside from the fact that you're right, 3.4 is at worst "did you hear something?" territory, not "OMG the sky^H^H^H roof is falling".)

It also occurs to me that given the mountainous structure of central Europe, they may be long overdue for a major quake. Anyone know??

Re:Damages?

[holmstar]

Yeah. I wonder how many people started looking for cracks in places that they hadn't bothered to look at in years once they heard that a geologist was handing out repair money.

A Learning Experience -

[Anonymous Coward]

How often do you get to cause an earthquake and call it a learning experience?

How often do you GET TO CAUSE AN EARTHQUAKE?

Re:A Learning Experience -

[Quantos]

Just imagine the other inmates, 'So, what are you in for?'

Re:A Learning Experience -

[six11]

I imagine he would be seen as an evil supervillain like Lex Luthor or something, and emerge from jail with a small army to do his geological bidding.

Re:A Learning Experience -

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh yeah? Well, I caused a tornado."

Re:A Learning Experience -

[Rei]

Is your name Louis Michaud?

Re:A Learning Experience -

[Sulphur]

They had let him off the first time.

Re:A Learning Experience -

[igny]

Just imagine the other inmates, 'So, what are you in for?'

Drilling holes with deep penetration. With a ground shaking climax.

Re:A Learning Experience -

[geekoid]

I can make cities tremble!

Kneel before Zod.

Re:A Learning Experience -

[sgtrock]

I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench

"You can get anything you want,
at Alice's Restaurant
Excepting Alice" :)

Re:A Learning Experience -

[5KVGhost]

"Costa Del Haering. Haeringville. Marina del Haering. Tacoburg... Tacoburg?!"

Tesla

[Bel Riose]

Reminds one of this: http://www.excludedmiddle.com/earthquake.htm

Re:Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds one of this: http://www.excludedmiddle.com/earthquake.htm

Bah this guy is a piker compared to Tesla! If that link is correct Tesla built an earthquake generator that was independent of existing fault lines and it could fit in his coat pocket! In contrast, Markus Haering needed tons of industrial equipment and a pre-existing geological fault to get everyone's panties in a bunch.

I also found the purported reason Tesla was fooling around with a machine that could create seismic vibrations interesting as well. The link claims he was working a way to send vibrations through the earth and use reflected echos to detect subterranean mineral and oil deposits.

US project shut down

[Rufus211]

Thankfully a project by the same company just north of San Francisco has been shut down. The last thing CA needs is more earthquakes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/science/earth/12quake.html

Re:US project shut down

[Raptor851]

however...nobody here would even notice a 3.4

Re:US project shut down

[Grishnakh]

I completely disagree. They need to move that project to the LA area, and drill until an earthquake happens that's so massive that LA is swallowed up entirely.

Then they need to move to Detroit and try to do the same thing there.

Re:US project shut down

[corbettw]

Like anyone in San Francisco would notice a 3.4. That's just a normal night in the Castro when the music is playing loudly.

Re:US project shut down

[Onymous Coward]

How does this earthquake business work exactly? Does tension build up and then sometimes you get big slips and thus big quakes? So maybe causing an earthquake a day is a good idea?

Re:US project shut down

[mobby_6kl]

Come on, go easy on them. They were probably only trying to split off and sink California in the ocean. Nothing wrong with that.

Re:US project shut down

[penguinchris]

There is evidence for that, but is far from being well understood. You can definitely say that stress is relieved by earthquakes, making the next one to not be as large as it might have been had the entire stress from both been released at once.

However, one thing (among others) that makes it complicated is that faults are better described as fault zones - there may be hundreds or thousands of smaller faults taking up slip from the main fault, and movement on any of them could cause an earthquake. And an earthquake could potentially shift the structures in a way so as to create more stress in another area (though physically this is unlikely), which would mean an even bigger earthquake next time.

It would be cool to experiment with this, though. If you could reliably cause small earthquakes from deep drilling and set them off regularly, you could learn a whole lot about how this works. However, you're still stuck with the problem we have now - in order to figure out if your models and theories are correct, you have to wait until a big earthquake occurs and see how it fits in your model. If you experimented with drilling, you would have to keep doing it potentially forever to figure out if it works. You won't know if it works or not unless there is a big earthquake that wasn't caused by you, proving that it doesn't work. The recurrence interval for large earthquakes (I mean exceedingly damaging ones) in Southern California, a very active area, is about 100-200 years. Of course, there are several fault zones that could rupture, meaning the actual probability of a big one is higher than that - for example, a large rupture of the San Andreas is different from a rupture on the thrust faults north of LA (one of which caused the 1994 Northridge earthquake) and the recurrence intervals are different. So that means that your experiment is most likely going to run out of money before you figure anything out, and the most likely thing you're going to figure out is that it doesn't work :) Depending on who you listen to, the San Andreas may be "overdue" for a large rupture, and many are expecting one (potentially devastating) within 20-30 years... but even that is exceedingly long to experiment with expensive drilling.

IAAG(eologist) in grad school in Southern California

Re:US project shut down

[drinkypoo]

You think you're thankful? With a good ballistics calculator I could put a bullet on their site from my house. And I probably should have: when they were doing the construction work for the project they had this absolutely insane array of high-powered arc lamps which gave the site a real night-to-day treatment... and probably produced as much light pollution as everything else in the county at once. For the two weeks surrounding the new moon, it looked like a perpetual dawning in that direction. I can't imagine being one of the poor bastards living on Bottle Rock Road who had to deal with that. In addition, I was making a lot of trips over Cobb Mountain at that time, and I was continually stuck behind semis and pickup trucks whose eventual destination was their gate, and repeatedly had their employees pull out right in front of me — out of their driveway on a sweeper curve on a road with a 55 mile per hour speed limit. (It has since been reduced to 45...) Even the floodlamps on their sign were far brighter than necessary, and downright blinding on a dark night, worse than oncoming headlights. Everything about them was offensive, and I'm beyond glad to see them shut down operations at The Geysers.

Now, if only we could shut down all operations there; the power plant is continually over budget and under-producing, and it produces a steady stream of toxics including prodigious quantities of arsenic, all of which are stored in open concrete pits next to the generation facility. Every few years they build a slab over the pit, and raise the walls up so they can put more there. They used to truck it off-site and bury it in drums at a facility on Butts Canyon Road, but the drums began leaking (shock, amazement) and we started having two-headed cattle and whatnot. They "cleaned" the mess by digging it up and installing a plastic liner. I'm getting out of this county as soon as it is convenient...

The first...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and only government subsidised earthquake I know of.

Profit!

[Logical Zebra]

1. Drill and Cause Earthquakes

2. ????

3. Profit!

Re:Profit!

[Firemouth]

2. Hold city for ransom by threatening crushing earth quakes if they don't pay!

Re:Profit!

[interkin3tic]

How did you find the entire screenplay for "Under Siege 2?!?"

In other news...

[Z1NG]

In other news, Swiss marine biologist accused of attaching lasers to the heads of sharks.
Seriously, if this guy changes his name to Dr. Quake or some other reasonable mad scientist name his only punishment should be a lecture from the super hero of his choice.
__________
On a more serious note, this is pretty scary. His excuse that the result was stronger than he expected is lame - when dealing with things of this magnitude you should try to be as certain as possible. Calling such a damaging incident "a learning process" seems a little asinine. I hope no one was hurt.

Re:In other news...

[Z1NG]

After looking at the Richter Scale, I think my earlier comments were a tad hasty. A rating of 3.4 on the scale is relatively minor and usually doesn't result in damage. I still think the fact that the magnitude was higher than expected shows that they were acting irresponsibly, but taking this into consideration it doesn't seem quite as egregious.

I hear...

[Anonymous Coward]

...yellowstone's got lot of potential for geothermal energy.

Re:I hear...

[JDeane]

I heard the same thing lol

The article linked in the summery already had some interesting bits in it about just that.

"Currently, 144 new geothermal plants are under development in the United States. The accelerating growth of geothermal projects could bring the nation 7,000 MW of new baseload geothermal power in the next few years, raising the prospects of 10 GW of geothermal power in coming years. At that level, geothermal power will satisfy the needs of over 10 million people and still have tremendous growth potential in the United States."

Looks like they want to ramp things up a bit.

Re:I hear...

[afidel]

I would have killed for geothermal heating in my cabin in Yellowstone, waking up at 4am because the fire burned out and the place is nearly freezing sucked.

Or as Tolkien would say it;

[Servaas]

"Swiss! Oh Swiss! Wonder of the Western world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the shameless trail." Free interpretation of course.

I know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it's serious and nothing to laugh at, but could you imagine the story your kids could tell..

"My dad is tough."

"Oh yeah, my dad got sued for causing earthquakes."

Eggshell defense

[SuperBanana]

These villagers were scamming the poor guy. $9 million in damages from a *3.4* quake? Cripes, a bus crossing in front of my house is close to 3.4... either their houses are made from eggshells, or this is the scam of the century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

Translation/application: if you demonstrate negligence and cause an earthquake, even if everyone's houses are made of chewing gum and paper- you're responsible for the damage, because had you not done what you did, the damage wouldn't have happened.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Hurricane78]

You forgot, that if you did not know that the houses were made of eggshells, and it is generally assumed that houses are not made of eggshells, that this would rather be a nasty trap, and that the lawsuit would in that case be a scam tactic.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Red Flayer]

Translation/application: if you demonstrate negligence and cause an earthquake, even if everyone's houses are made of chewing gum and paper

FWIW, I'd bet a well-designed chewing-gum-and-paper house is more earthquake resistant than some of the concrete-steel-and-wood houses. At the very least, it'd be cheaper to build, assuming a a very large army of gum chewers, thus resulting in reduced liability for damages.

Re:Eggshell defense

[nomadic]

Actually I think a better legal principle might be the inherently dangerous activity one. Like if you're using dynamite, and it causes damage, even though you weren't negligent, you are still liable for the damage.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Golddess]

either their houses are made from eggshells, or this is the scam of the century.

I don't think GP meant that the guy shouldn't pay, just that it seems highly suspect that there is so much damage to be paid for.

I have no experience with quakes, so I'm just going by what GP said as to what a 3.4 quake would do.

Re:Eggshell defense

[digitalunity]

3.4 magnitude is really small. Any significant structural damage is likely the fault of the design of those structures. Any building, whether in a tectonically active region or not should be designed and built to meet a minimum standard for safety. I don't know where that line should be, but in this case I would say the engineer shouldn't be culpable. $9M is a lot of damages for such a tiny earthquake.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Anonymous Coward]

Chewing-gum-and-paper? MacGyver could rebuild the World Trade Center with chewing-gum-and-paper.

Re:Eggshell defense

[winwar]

"I don't know where that line should be, but in this case I would say the engineer shouldn't be culpable."

The engineer should be culpable because he was willfully negligent. If you inject fluids into a fault zone you tend to generate earthquakes. This is undergraduate level geology knowledge.

Re:Eggshell defense

[aztracker1]

... and a paper clip.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Anonymous Coward]

MacGyver with a paper clip? It's clear to me now...

World Trade Center: Skyscraper. A building barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world’s first bionic building. World Trade Center will be that building. Better than it was before. Better. Stronger. Faster.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Anonymous Coward]

which is BS in my opinion. if you build a house you have to give due diligence to make it structurally sound to a reasonable degree. if your skull is truly as fragile as an eggshell, then you were born that way and it is not something that was built. Unless of course eggshell skulls become the next trend in body modification. any house built that close to an active fault line should be able to withstand. yeah, i know what the law is, but it's ridiculous. i dislike any absolute 'fault' law, where in any given situation blame is uniformly assigned always in one way or the other without consideration for the merits of the case.

Re:Eggshell defense

[afidel]

Actually I think the engineers who designed and built the buildings should be held negligent, building a structure that takes *any* damage from a 3.4 in a fault zone should be criminal. Seriously we get earthquakes on that magnitude here in Ohio on an almost yearly basis, in the middle of the freaking NA plate. If you are in a geothermally active country you should be expecting a heck of a lot more than that!

Re:Eggshell defense

[shutdown -p now]

You forgot, that if you did not know that the houses were made of eggshells, and it is generally assumed that houses are not made of eggshells, that this would rather be a nasty trap

Did you actually read GP's link?

The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person's head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if such damages were not reasonably foreseeable, or the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury.

Now I'm not sure whether it only applies to bodily harm or everything; but if the latter, it's crystal clear that "generally assumed" is entirely irrelevant here.

Re:Eggshell defense

[0100010001010011]

Ohio isn't in the 'middle' of a plate. It's actually fairly close to the New Madrid line.

The line responsible for four of the largest earth quakes North America has seen. If it goes off again the Midwest is proper fucked as nothing is built to Earthquake standards.

Re:Eggshell defense

[fizzup]

That is false, at least in jurisdictions covered by English-style law. You take your victim as you find him. It's a principle that prevents tortious and criminal actors from relying on the vulnerability of their victims as part of their defense. Doesn't matter if you knew about your victim's condition. You should follow the link that GP provided.

Re:Eggshell defense

[digitalunity]

I love not too far from the great lakes. If there is a truly epic earthquake, I'm a little worried the lake will run me down and drown me.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Anonymous Coward]

So now you just have to prove that he DID cause the earthquake.

The stupidity involved in living ON a fault line is really staggering.

Re:Eggshell defense

[westlake]

You forgot, that if you did not know that the houses were made of eggshells, and it is generally assumed that houses are not made of eggshells, that this would rather be a nasty trap

If you are playing with forces as elementally powerful as an earthquake, there are some things you need to know. You can't be willfully ignorant. You have to test your most basic assumptions, to make certain they are valid.

Re:Eggshell defense

[ckedge]

The eggshell skull rule is a piece of vindictive bullshit from 150 years ago.

On the other side of the spectrum I think we should treat *all* drunken drivers as if they had killed someone, because they have, just through indirect statistical accumulation.

There should be no difference between murder and attempted murder. In both cases the criminal did exactly the same fucking thing -- one of them happened to be lucky enough to pull off what they intended. I don't see why the unlucky one should get less of a sentence.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Anonymous Coward]

That may be true for personal attacks, but I don't think so for property. Wouldn't that be an incentive to build houses with paper tissue? Build cheap, sue for profit.

Re:Eggshell defense

[Hurricane78]

Well, then that law is obviously oversimplified.

I think you agree that we should stop to argue in either-or style here. Clearly, it’s neither right of those criminals, to rely on the vulnerability of their victims as a defense, NOR, to trap someone with a e.g. building something that crumbles on first touch, and then suing him for destroying it.

It’s the intention of it. Which we can’t see. But that does not mean it doesn’t exist.
And here lies the gross error of the law: It pretends that that aspect, because it can’t be directly observed, “does not exist”. And then simplifies its rules, based on that false assumption.
That way, the law would be wrong either way.

I think that we’re in the freakin’ 21st century. And I expect legislation to come up with a clever and elegant logic trick to make this intention provable. Get scientists to help you! But stop ignoring something, because you still think “psychology is ‘not real’”! :)

Re:Eggshell defense

[MattSausage]

Apparently the Mississippi River ran backwards after the 1811-12 earthquake on the New Madrid (yes the earthquake and aftershocks lasted for months or years by most accounts) caused a 30 foot uplift in the KY bend of the Miss. River and dammed it up, causing a huge series of lakes in KY to form.

One could only imagine if that should happen again, and dam up the river near St. Louis or Memphis... it could wash away the city.

Re:Eggshell defense

[afidel]

Uh, yeah 800+ miles to the plate boundary puts it pretty much in the middle of the plate, New Madrid line doesn't affect Ohio, and even if it did it's an intraplate fault.

Re:Eggshell defense

[angel'o'sphere]

Actually I think the engineers who designed and built the buildings should be held negligent

Good Luck finding the engineers (erm, do you really like to call them that?) of buildings that are 100, 200 or 500 years old.

In what fantasy world do you live? Ah ... yeah, the Unbelieveable Stupidity of Amazingness ... was that the tla for your country?

angeel'o'sphere

the first...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and only government subsidised earth quake I know of.

Intentionally?

[calmofthestorm]

Forgive my lack of knowledge of Swiss law but I'm going to assume proving he intentionally damaged property would require proving intent. I'm extraordinarily skeptical that there was any.

Re:Intentionally?

[Red Flayer]

I'm not familiar with Swiss law either. This may be a lost-in-translation issue. If he knew his actions would cause damage, and continued in those actions anyway, then likely he has committed some crime. The specific word "intent" may not be the right one here... "willful" may be a better translation/interpretation.

Re:Intentionally?

[afidel]

In most of the world you would just have to pay restitution for any damage caused. A good example is a demolition company, they will do everything in their power to keep all debris inside the footprint of the structure they are demolishing but it's not physically possible to do so 100% of the time. They are still allowed to blast but if a piece of the building flies out and hits a nearby structure and damages it they have insurance/a bond for that and they merely pay for the damages.

Re:Intentionally?

[Anonymous Coward]

The law is: "Wer einem andern widerrechtlich Schaden zufügt, sei es mit Absicht, sei es aus Fahrlässigkeit, wird ihm zum Ersatze verpflichtet." (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/220/a41.html)
Whoever unlawfully causes harm to another, be it on purpose, or negligence, is obliged to compensate him.
On purpose = With intent

Re:Intentionally?

[angel'o'sphere]

How would you describe in english the difference between willfull and intent(ional) if I translate it "back" to german they and up in the same word (which makes your assumption right). However I don't understand the "connotation" (secondary implied meanings) of that words.

angel'o'sphere

Re:Intentionally?

[Red Flayer]

Sorry for the much-late response... in case you're still following the conversation:

Intent implies that the motivation for action is the result caused by the action. Willful merely implies that the actor knew of the effect, and processed anyway.

Say I have an argument with you, so I swing a hammer at your head. My intent is to cause damage to you.

Say there is black widow spider on your hair, and it looks like it is going to bite you. I swing the hammer at the spider, and hit you in the head. My intent is to kill the spider, but I willfully caused damage to you as a byproduct, since I knew that would be part of the likely outcome.

Not that I want to bash in your head or anything, it was just the first example that came to mind... please take no offense.

What about progress?

[DesScorp]

I'm pretty skeptical about many of the miraculous so-called "green energy" projects that abound. But if you don't even try them, then how will you know whether or not they'll work? This seems like a message to innovators and inventors; yeah, we want your new technologies, but if you screw up, you go to jail.

Re:What about progress?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

If "screwing up" involves widespread damage to other people's property and/or person, that is pretty much how it goes.

The "You can't do that, because science hurts my precious tender feelings!" crowd are idiots, and ought not to be listened to; but the notion that you can cavalierly take risks with other people's lives and property(Your own? knock yourself out.) because they are working for "progress" is pretty broken.

Hey, it's a good way to get rid of...

[mrami]

those pesky minarets! Yeppers!

Earthquake a coincidence?

[PeterM from Berkeley]

Is there any real evidence that the earthquake wasn't a coincidence and not due to the drilling? The article was rather thin.

Re:Earthquake a coincidence?

[penguinchris]

It certainly could be, but you can easily pinpoint the 3D location of the epicenter (and any related earthquakes like aftershocks) to see where the rupturing started. I'm guessing they can show that the rupturing occurred right where their drilling is.

can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[SuperBanana]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/08/business/energy-environment/08fracking.html

The drilling boom is raising concern in many parts of the country, and the reaction is creating political obstacles for the gas industry. Hazards like methane contamination of drinking water wells, long known in regions where gas production was common, are spreading to populous areas that have little history of coping with such risks, but happen to sit atop shale beds.

And a more worrisome possibility has come to light. A string of incidents in places like Wyoming and Pennsylvania in recent years has pointed to a possible link between hydraulic fracturing and pollution of groundwater supplies. In the worst case, such pollution could damage crucial supplies of water used for drinking and agriculture

It isn't going to be climate change that kills us. We won't have any clean water to drink. Fun fact: the "safe water drinking act" isn't being enforced by the EPA, and even water that has very unhealthy level of arsenic is "safe". Does a 1-in-600 chance of getting bladder cancer sound "safe" to you?

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[DerekLyons]

Does a 1-in-600 chance of getting bladder cancer sound "safe" to you?

Actually, yeah it does.

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[Lord Ender]

I just visited Mount Rushmore, and there are signs on the fountains stating that the EPA lowered the accepted arsenic level from 50ppm to 10ppm, but the water there actually has 12ppm. Are you 1/600 Rushmore tourists are going to get bladder cancer due to the 20% extra arsenic in the Coke?

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[Mspangler]

"Does a 1-in-600 chance of getting bladder cancer sound "safe" to you?"

Over what time interval? Given there is a 100% chance of death in the grand overview, a 1 in 600 chance of death from bladder cancer by 80 years old compared with a the 1 in 3 chance of death from cancer in general is not that large.

Given the cost of arsenic removal to the ppb level, one has to ask is that cost the best use of available public health dollars? Or would more people be healthier by spending the money elsewhere? At some point we are spending ever more money to remove ever smaller risks. Look at the amount of arsenic in shellfish, and yet they are not being banned. I used to work a a mine that had an arsenic-rich ore. When we went in for our annual blood work for arsenic and other heavy metals, we got a note saying "eat no shellfish for the week preceding the test, or the blood results may come in high".

     

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I work in the natural gas industry.

I have been in the industry for a little over a year now, and I have not heard a single case of contamination of drinking well water. In fact, I drank out of a few different wells right next to old (50 year old+) well heads, and that article is bunk. It says so in the article. Did you even bother reading it?

FTFA you posted: "So far, the evidence of groundwater pollution is thin." You know why? Cause it happens very infrequently on ACCIDENT. And seriously dude, you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you 1/600 Rushmore tourists are going to get bladder cancer due to the 20% extra arsenic in the Coke?

No, but the people working there might be at an increased risk.

Re:can we go after natural gas companies, too?

[evilviper]

It isn't going to be climate change that kills us. We won't have any clean water to drink.

A miniscule percentage of our water supplies are consumed by humans. While desalination and advanced filtering aren't cheap, it would still be much cheaper than the current batches of bottled water.

In short, we aren't going to die. Your lawn might, though.

Obviously not an expert, maybe ex pert?

[Roskolnikov]

This has all happened before and apparently will happen again:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/lr247770l2272741/

I recall these earthquakes were triggered by chemical weapon disposal, same plot though, dig a big deep hole and put liquid in.....
]

Re:Obviously not an expert, maybe ex pert?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, I don't have a credit card.

Re:Obviously not an expert, maybe ex pert?

[penguinchris]

I glanced through it briefly (my university has access - I'm a geology grad student) and it's got a great graph for slashdot - correlation of earthquake frequency and chemical waste injection and an inference of causation. Since that's hardly the first time this has happened, though, there's no need for the correlationisnotcausation tag :)

Is he a transformer?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Unless his name is 'Rumble,' and he popped out of a walkman I don't see how this is possible.

Whattaya in for?

[wcrowe]

Since they mentioned criminal charges, I just imagined him being placed in a cell with other suspects...

Cellmate: "What are you in for?"

Haering: "Causing earthquakes."

Re:Whattaya in for?

[whoever57]

or --
Cellmate: "What are you in for?"

Haering: 'i made the earth move in thousands of houses'

Re:Whattaya in for?

[Reziac]

Haering: I made the earth move under her feet...

Cellmate: Just ain't no pleasing some wimmen!

I thought algore said

[Cornwallis]

the temperature was in the millions of degrees? What's with this 195C sissy stuff?

most earth scientists knew this since 1960s

[peter303]

The big eye-opener was the injection of fluid at Rocky Mountain Arsenal near denver causing medium size quakes in 1965. This is called induced seismicity . Its been seen around new dams (possibility in last years large Sichuan quake), geothermal drilling, irrigation fluid disposal, water table drops, etc.

Teh question really is political. Was the possibility of I.S. included in the pre-project environmental study? Did they ignore signs of it starting? Was it really caused by their activities.

Trials to be proud of

[Captain Spam]

On the bright side, if it legitimately were my fault and/or plan, that IS one of the top things I'd be proud to be on trial for. Rates right up there with "attempted destruction of the moon" and "triggered volcanoes to, as the defendant put it, 'show all those fools who is mad'".

Where's the kaboom?

[kungfugleek]

There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!

Well, at least they didn't try this in Yellowstone...

It had to happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Swiss guy making holes were there shouldn't be any holes. Typical.

Re:It had to happen

[pwfffff]

First they came for the cheese...

Lex Luther

[hoggoth]

I hear Lex Luther is hiring.

Re:Lex Luther

[Kozz]

Lex Luthor: "Everyone's got their faults. Mine's in California."

James Bond Villian

[jameskojiro]

Switzerland: The Bond Villain of the European Union...

No wonder they have all of the Gold there.....

"Pay us one Beeellion dollars or your cities get shaken, not stirred..."

Jurisprudence

[Korbeau]

I'm eager to see how this trial's decisions will impact the trial against the LHC physicists team in a few months for causing rapid gravitational earth implosion. At 9M$ for a few km of earth, this could get quite expensive!

Re:Jurisprudence

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

But collecting the settlement will be tricky, when all the world's assets, fiat currencies, kittens, and collectible figurines have been scrunched into a point mass...

Re:Jurisprudence

[poopdeville]

You call that "tricky"? Sounds trivially easy to me.

Re:Jurisprudence

[radtea]

I'm eager to see how this trial's decisions will impact the trial against the LHC physicists team in a few months for causing rapid gravitational earth implosion

The what? Don't you mean the LHC physicists team turning everyone on on Earth into a penguin?

How is it that everyone who thinks the LHC might create black holes fails to notice the equally plausible grand unification of general relativity and evolution that could result in such mass cross-species conversion due to reprogramming of our DNA?

Drying clothes and linen on rope in sun and wind

[Max_W]

All this to produce electricity to dry clothing in the electric dryers. Just let people dry clothing and linen on the ropes in the sun and wind.

Billions and billions of such drying wet items will cool the planet. Because it will be daily, and it will be in billions.

We are trying to solve by engineering means a problem which is not a technical problem. It is a problem in our heads.

In Iceland....

[jonfr]

Here in Iceland they have been pumping down Co2 for testing. That is down with water, but the result is the same, it has created earthquakes. The largest one was about ML2.0 before they stopped the experiment.

I don't know why it was stopped. But it is quite oblivious that pressure changes create earthquakes faster then one might think.

However, in Iceland they where pumping down that water within a active volcano with a lot of fault lines.

Re:In Iceland....

[Anonymous Coward]

it has created earthquakes.

Iceland is basically an active volcano. You guys don't even have dirt. How can you possibly tell what is causing any given earthquake?

Tesla...

[PhantomHarlock]

Eh, Tesla did it 100 years ago, if the stories and his autobiography are to be believed :)

well

[Anonymous Coward]

Who would have thought that Basel was faulty. Still 3.4 magnitude doesn't seem a lot (assuming Richter scale) so if they had damage it must have been Faulty Towers.

Haering's company was actually ...

[Brad Eleven]

... trying to selectively topple minarets.

Unintentional effects

[gznork26]

In this case, they were actually attempting to accomplish something when the unexpected happened. What about all of the places in the world where there's a chain of events just waiting to be triggered? The more the infrastructure is neglected, the less stable it becomes, and the more prone it is to failure. But when that failure triggers something else, and a cascade of events starts to unfold, who's to say whether the person who triggered the initial event, whether intentional or not, is responsible for the indirect results?

I explored this possibility in a short story called "Cascade". It starts like this...

+ - - - + - - - +

It had all come down to Irwin's own testimony. Five nightmarish months of a high-profile court case in which his life was laid bare like a laboratory exhibit and washed with stain that allowed only one interpretation: terrorist. And all because he'd suggested a use for some cash left over at the end of a tech conference.

He looked up from the bible beneath his hand, and then over at the judge. His throat was dry from sitting for so long beside his court-appointed lawyer, agape at the fabricated version of his life that had been reeled out by the prosecution. "I do."

"You may take the stand."

+ - - - + - - - +

Read the whole story at http://klurgsheld.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/short-story-cascade/

lol

[Weezul]

Yes, I agree, indeed this is the whole point of an LLC. LLCs are horribly abused quite routinely. I often observe that chemical companies should really be charged with manslaughter for some of their pollutants. *But* a serious research project that happens to "break a few eggs" should really be let slide.

A reasonable compromise might be awarding shares in this company to the damaged cities and the Swiss national science funding body, so the company current backers face dilution as punishment, but no immediate funds change hands, and any IP becomes closer to public property.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitalism means paying for the eggs you broke.

Your idea of diluting the shares is an intriguing one, but I'm not sure that it would work on habitual offenders who would simply continue to cause damages until the stock is worthless and the victims are left with worthless paper. Furthermore, if the damages awarded are supposed to be related to the damages sustained, how would you decide how much stock to award when doing so would cause the value to decrease?

I think a better plan would be the ability to force a "Criminal Public Offering" whereby the company has to raise $fine by the sale of new stock on the open market. If they can't raise the fine by the time the stock is worthless, then they must pay the remainder out of the company's assets.

Should have used protection

[AP31R0N]

He should have employed sheep's bladders.

Can we postpone or lessen The Big One?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would it be possible to use these drilling-induced earthquakes to relieve stress on the fault line and prevent a giant earthquake later?

impossible

[Lord Ender]

You can't "cause" an earthquake. They are caused by tectonic pressure. You may be able to adjust the timing of one, though.

Perhaps this man's 3.4 quake actually saved the village from having a 4.0 quake a few years later! Did anyone think of that? Perhaps they should be giving him a medal.

Re:impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

tectonic pressure is just a normal force acting on the fault boundary inducing friction. the driving force eventually will build up and overcome the friction. by pumping water into that void under pressure (or not so much pressure, the steam once it boils will add plenty) the normal force is decreased and the driving force can overcome it easier. if there are any other geotechnical engineers on the board the concept of effective stress is immediately applicable

so you CAN cause an earthquake, or at least trigger one, but i will concede your second point

Re:impossible

[Tisha_AH]

By causing an "earthquake" the incident relieved built up stresses along the fault line. If faults were able to slide continually and smoothly you would not have earthquakes at all.

It would not be surprising to find out that the earthquake came while they were hydraulically fracturing the rock to allow for water channels to exist between boreholes. If you cannot pump cool water down one shaft and hot water up another you will have no means of recovering the built up heat and generating electricity. Creating these cracks and channels between boreholes is essential for geothermal (oil and gas as well) systems.

In hydro-fracturing they pump a fluid (water and a bunch of other chemicals and little beads to wedge into the cracks to keep them open) at extremely high pressures (>10,000 psi) to open of seams in the rock and to create channels to allow the working fluid (water) to move between the wells. As the water moves through the rock it sucks up the heat and is then used to drive some sort of secondary loop. Since the water is not converted into steam (being cooler than 100 C) they must have planned on using some sort of intermediate process to generate the expanding gas to run a turbine or sterling engine.

Re:impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't "cause" an earthquake. They are caused by tectonic pressure. You may be able to adjust the timing of one, though.

When the reservoir behind Hoover Dam filled up it caused several small earthquakes because of the increasing weight of the water in the reservoir. Although I do concede your point with respect to this quake.

Re:impossible

[pitchpipe]

You can't "cause" an earthquake. They are caused by tectonic pressure. You may be able to adjust the timing of one, though.

You are absolutely right. How about a bunch of small quakes rather than one large one. I live in Salt Lake City which geologists say lies on a large fault that is due for a large quake. I'd much rather have a planned quake, even if it was fairly large rather than a huge unexpected one. I guarantee that if that happens I'll know people who'll die. I just really hope that when it does happen it isn't anyone too close to me. Selfish I know, but aren't we all? I just wonder why nobody in that village seems to have thought that maybe he just saved their asses.

Re:impossible

[zippthorne]

The problem is, it's very difficult to measure "damages that would've happened, but now won't" even if, when subtracting that from the "damages that did occur" they should probably be paying the geologist rather than the other way around.

This sort of thing happens all the time and is one of the reasons naive presidents keep push for massive spendulous bills.

Re:impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

Basel is slightly above village sized. Though I agree, even England has had a few 4.x earthquakes in the past 10 years with little consequence.

Re:impossible

[chord.wav]

Exactly my thought. Same way ski centers have avalanche control teams that throw charges in strategic places to create "tiny" avalanches to prevent a huge one. Same practice is used to control fires in national parks, they do controlled fires to prevent big, unstoppable, fires.

He probably saved many lives.

Re:impossible

[ladadadada]

True... but the few years later may well have been 10 or 100 or 1000 or 10,000. We don't know enough about earthquakes yet to know which of those options is likely.

If you put it to a vote, I would bet that most of the population would go for a doubling of intensity if they knew it wouldn't happen for another 100 years.

Re:impossible

[Duggeek]

[...by drilling,] you may be able to adjust the timing of [an earthquake].

Perhaps this man's 3.4 quake actually saved the village from having a 4.0 quake a few years later! Did anyone think of that? Perhaps they should be giving him a medal.

So, by that logic, perhaps you recommend that he work in Yellowstone National Park to save the western United States from catastrophe? While he's at it, he'll be given presidential recognition for tapping perhaps the largest reserve of geothermic energy in the world. Only problem is, it will be at the expense of national preserved land.

I wonder, could we justify that kind of sacrifice, or is the National Parks Association so myopic as to prevent the progress of Energy Independence?

Making the state of Wyoming the center of renewable energy production would certainly “change the map.”

Gnomes of Zurich ...

[deprecated]

... delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness.

Finally

[slightly_flawed]

The first bona fide supervillain! Complete with German accent and underground evil project!

Is it good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it good use heat from the center or near center of the earth?
I thought every thing works in equilibrium, if we are draining earths core heat for generating electricity at one point of time don't you think that it will create issues?

Cheese, earth.

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be Swiss to put holes in things.

causing an earthquake or just triggering it ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder, if they are really 'causing' those earthquakes or if the tension is already there and building up further over time and those drillings just trigger an earthquake early that would happen anyway at some point.
I mean, if tension is building up over time and nothing disturbes that process, it might actually build up to a high level, but it WILL most likely result in a strong earthquake at some point. If someone disturbes that process by drilling, I can imagine that that earthquake happens earlier, but won't be that strong either, because the tension that has been built up is not so high as in the other case. Just wondering/asking...

He Did It Wrong

[BJ_Covert_Action]

The guy wants to produce useful energy from a fault line location with drills and geothermal power plants? Pssssh amateur. Here in California we learned a long time ago that the best type of power plant to build on a fault line is the nuclear variant.

That's how we roll. =D

We wouldn't even notice

[Burning1]

Dude, out here we wouldn't even notice a 3.4 magnitude earthquake.

It could warrant a comment or two if someone else is in the room when it happens, and it *might* get 5 minute blurb on a slow news day.

Hell...

[Burning1]

Hell, here's a map of the earthquakes that happened this week in California.

http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/

Re:Hell...

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, when using similar map overlays on Google Earth, you can actually locate where geothermal power production is by finding areas with a high frequency of small magnitude earthquakes. (Look for areas with daily small level "popcorn" quakes.) Of course similar patterns may also occur in areas of natural geothermal activity where there are geysers, so it's probably a hot-rocks and water thing where pressure pockets build up and release in random steam explosions underground.

Good - this madman has got to be stopped

[M4DP4RROT]

or before you know it, there'll be bestial cavemen roaming the countryside and the whole world will be covered in lava.

I know I know!!!

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Let's drill HUNDREDS of geothermal tubes in YELLOWSTONE PARK!!!

THAT'S THE TICKET!!!

It'll be great - we can draw off some of that heat from the magma and power the country forever.

What? Weaken the dome? Create a supervolcano? Naaaaah. Never happen! Imagine all the money we'll make!!!

RS

Damaging even when not causing quakes

[Lars T.]

At least one drilling caused cracks in dozens of buildings, and a month ago one caused water to gush from holes around the site for several hours.

Re:Damaging even when not causing quakes

[dbIII]

Of course it all depends on where it is.
One exploration drillhole in the middle of a lake in Texas punched through into a shaft in a saltmine underneath. The entire freshwater lake, drilling gear, barges and some lakeside buildings vanished into the mine, and then the lake refilled with seawater. Rather spectacular stupidity was involved in drilling there.
Another drillhole in Indonesia about two years ago started a mud volcano and is still pumping out hot mud. I don't know what was involved there.
Meanwhile nothing at all has happened to hundreds of thousands of other drillholes - it all depends on where it is.

They're Swiss not French.

[HornWumpus]

They didn't shit themselves when/if they felt the earthquake (as the Frogs would.)

They shit themselves when they realized there was money to be had (what can you say, they're Swiss).

3.4s don't crack plaster.

Any structure damaged by a 3.4 should be condemned for safety reasons and the scientist thanked for revealing such a deficient structure. Bet that would change the villagers tune.

I can't believe a nation that employs hygiene examiners (government inspection of any premises when you move out) doesn't also enforce building codes.

If you get my drift

[rumblin'rabbit]

I hate to be pedantic (ahem), but heat from the earth's core is nuclear power, since it is the decay of radioactive materials that heats the core.

But cooling the earth's core would halt continental drift. Did anyone think of that? And then where would we be? Screwed, that where.

People just don't think these things through.

Re:If you get my drift

[MattSausage]

First of all, I'm not sure it's been conclusively determined that radioactive decay is precisely what heats the Earth's core, and secondly, why would stopping continental drift be a bad thing?

They are overreacting...

[polymeris]

A 3.5 (Richter?) magnitude quake would be enough to be felt from a couple hundred meters away, but scarcely do any damage... How did they calculate that 9 million USD damage?

No, no, no - there is another explanation

[cheros]

In case you didn't realise, Basel actually has a casino.. :-)

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Letting it build up and sink SF into the sea is a good idea.

We need to find a way to stop the next 7 so they get an 8 later.

maybe yes, maybe no

[mbessey]

Does tension build up and then sometimes you get big slips and thus big quakes? So maybe causing an earthquake a day is a good idea?

Generally speaking, tension builds up in multiple places on the fault at once, then a series of slips occur as the rocks in the various places let go. So, yeah - in general, multiple small quakes in one location will relieve tension that would otherwise ultimately cause a bigger quake there. The boundary between the two "sides" of a fault is very very complex, though, so it's impossible to determine what exactly will happen to the rest of the fault when a particular slippage occurs.

For instance, whenever part of the fault moves, some part of that tension is transferred to somewhere else on the fault. If that happens to push that part of the fault over it's limit, it'll let go, causing tension on other parts to change... This can ultimately lead to the whole fault moving at once - which gives you the 1906 San Francisco earthquake.

The boy who hit the electric pole....

[stoicio]

....just as the lights went out.

Drilling is minuscule compared to the scale of a fault....(??!!)

If a bit of drilling is setting off earthquakes, they shouldn't be
blaming the drilling, they should be thanking the drillers for relieving the pressure
that could have caused a much larger quake.

Geothermal Project in California Is Shut Down

[4phun]

Geothermal Project in California Is Shut Down By JAMES GLANZ Published: December 11, 2009 The company in charge of a California project to extract vast amounts of renewable energy from deep, hot bedrock has removed its drill rig and informed federal officials that the government project will be abandoned. AltaRock Energy has told the Department of Energy it has removed its drill rig, shown above in May, from a Northern California site and abandoned the project. A method of tapping energy from bedrock has been linked to increased earthquake activity. The project by the company, AltaRock Energy, was the Obama administration’s first major test of geothermal energy as a significant alternative to fossil fuels and the project was being financed with federal Department of Energy money at a site about 100 miles north of San Francisco called the Geysers. But on Friday, the Energy Department said that AltaRock had given notice this week that “it will not be continuing work at the Geysers”.

A Travesty

[b4upoo]

It is a shame that this fellow is going to be on trial. He obviously had no intent to do harm. And this article does not indicate the he was irresponsible in his efforts. Sometimes bad things happen but that does not mean that someone should be punished.

cribster

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how much more heat trapping water vapor all these new geothermal plants are spewing?

Unless you pay me 1 million dollars!

[DarthVain]

Oh wait I am being sued for 9 million?

FAIL.

I wrote this story...

[Cerberus7]

I wrote a short story in high school about 15 years ago that was basically this. It's remarkable to see it in reality. Kinda creepy, too, given how my story ended.

It's just not fair

[LrdDimwit]

Everybody always talks about the weather, but when somebody tries to do something about it, "the man" has a fit. Next thing you know, you get labelled a "supervillain". And then you get beat up by a guy wearing pajamas. But they'll see, one day. Oh yes, I'll show them! I'll show all of them!

We are sad to see you go!

[Snaller]

*wave*