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Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop
zerothink writes "American student Lily Sussman, 21, upon entry into Israel from Taba (Egypt, Sinai) caught Israeli border police in grumpy mood — after two hours of questions and searching through her belongings they decided to put three bullets through her laptop. Explanation? 'I'm sorry but we had to blow up your laptop.' Haaretz also covered the story." All three bullets missed the hard disk.
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
But this is what happens if you don't set up partitions properly.
What.all my client case notes and testimony, writing, pictures, music and applications. Years of work. NO!!!! What?? Are you insane?? What were you thinking? THAT’S ALL MY WORK!?
What? There are a million and one things that could happen to a nice shiny laptop while travelling, if your data is that important it's pretty stupid not to backup, especially before travelling.
She will be reimbursed on her shot MacBook.
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Nothing new to me. It even beats American airport security paranoia, I hear.
Here's an outline of the security measures at the train station near my home (minor suburban station with about a train an hour):
Before I enter the station, I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.
I have to take my bags and put them through an X-ray machine, examined by a clueless security officer. I also have to step through a metal detector in case I have a gun/knife on me (never gets triggered by my belt and house keys)
Then as the train arrives, commuters are instructed not to board it until "security examinations" are finished (even if it's the back-and-forth shuttle train that only has two stops).
All train personnal are armed with a pistol. Including drivers. ... And then a 20 year old soldier walks in carrying an M16 and ammo which he is somehow allowed to because he has a slip of paper and uniform.
Security at its finest!
o hai
who wouldnt want to put three bullets through a Mac?
Safety and security procedures in Israel are strict, but effective and generally well applied. Terrorists often send 'innocent' foreigners with equipment across the border to test procedures. They now know what does not work. As far as the woman involved concerned, just reading the leaflets with info available at all embassies and airlines would have prevented her laptop in need of replacement.
Or would the value of this on Ebay be rather high? Higher than a working model.
armed thugs stop the travellers on a regular basis, and demand all sorts of things from them, at gun point. like removing clothing, penetration of clothing (tap search inside pants), stealing items like water bottles and knifes, or destroying property as here. in worst cases they can even enslave you (called arrest and inprisonment now, or rendition)
this is not much different from the middle ages, where bandits would stop travellers, and demand all sorts of things from them at the threat of physical violence. at least, at that time one could prepare and fight back.
Clearly, the iMac was not mobile enough comparing to the bullets.
Based on her current and past posts it is obvious she is anti-israeli. Israel like any country has the right to protect its borders and the security of the state with all means. Trying to harm border guards is not something unheard of there is even a video of a successful attempt running on youtube (www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyAMSh_yLo) Israel is known to have strict protocols when dealing with suspicious objects (Which includes laptops or any other unattended bags left in any area). I have seen this in action more than once. I.e baggage left accidentally at the bus station will probably get blown up by a bombsquad in a matter of minutes since it has been reported (after the area has been cleared). It's the same in every border in the world. Even laughing about a bomb will get you arrested in most places and probably deported. Don't forget she had arab stickers on her laptop, a picture of a star of david defaced, she has beenliving in Egypt (While it has peaceful relationships with israel , egypt is known to be home for many terrorist cells). The fact is that the laptop was suspicious and got blown up to eliminate a possible threat. Based on Israeli officials she will be reimbursed for the laptop - Hey look on the bright side - she could buy a new MacBook Air
The bullets would have bounced off. But it does figure that angsty types would have an apple product.
Sent from my PDP-11
On other news websites, "Thankfully, noone was killed". On Slashdot, "All three bullets missed the hard disc".
SURELY NOT!!!!!
I've crossed into Israel at this particular border point, around 5 years ago, and yes it was one of the hardest border crossings I've ever done, we were part of a tourist party who were going to be in Israel for around 30 minutes (a quick drive through Elat then out into Jordan), and its not somewhere I would take anything bigger than a camera I would even if I could empty the card before I went through. Everything was Xrayed, the metal detectors were so sensitive every scrap of metal was detected, a few people having to remove jeans with quite a few studs, your personal property was swabbed and checked for explosives and then once through there you were grilled about your personal details at passport control, quite a few people getting long grillings. All under the watch of guys with automatic weapons. It wasn't a place you made any kind of joke, you do exactly as you are told. At the time I though it was overkill then a week later this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Sinai_bombings, a terrorist attack aimed at the Israelis pretty much at that border point (although on the Egyptian side), kind of puts it all into perspective. Saying that since that border crossing, I am a lot more careful what I take with me, laptops and cameras fully backed up, and only take essentials, even bought a travel laptop so my main machine would stay safe at home. Everything electrical packed into one easy to search bag. Jen
You have to be pretty goddamn stupid to fly into a fanatical military state like Israel from a Muslim country with a laptop covered in Arabic stickers. What's the next leg of her journey? From Israel to Iran wearing a star of David and demanding a kosher meal?
Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
Would it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot?
Sure. Just carry a jar of nitroglycerine. The trick with that one is, rather, not to have it go off because you looked at it wrong.
It was shot by Israeli Police, not the IDF.
Shachar
What Al Queda stickers? What political statements?
Her blog only said Arabic stickers. AFAIK, the language is not (nor is speaking it or appreciating it) against any laws.
Admittedly, it does not sound as if shooting the laptop (and the display, of all things) was necessary, or even helpful. Having said that, the Israeli procedure seem to be:
Contrast and compare that with the US customs, which says:
Even on sheer "friendliness", I'm not sure which I prefer.
Shachar
The reason they're shooting it is to *try* to make it go off.
Typically this would be put in a bomb pit somewhere nearby. From reading the comments this is fairly common practice there. This one nailed it pretty well:
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in, where Palestinian terrorist would do anything (such as put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops) to intentionally hurt innocent civilians. These are precaution measures intended to prevent loss of innocent lives (yes, sometimes at the cost of a cherished laptop because of a possibly careless border officer)."
Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards. I don't believe that justifies their reaction, and wouldn't be surprised if they are disciplined (which will, of course, generate zero coverage outside of Israel), but most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.
Damn right, this is the country that has been said to have a policy of shooting unarmed civilians by one of its own army snipers.
"Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time."
Full Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/30/israel
Ok, the guy in question may have been saying this just to save his own skin as he was on trial for murder, but the large number of people, including children, killed in Gaza last year does make you wonder if maybe he was telling the truth.
I dont read
And she entered with her nice little laptop 'puter with the star of David on it and some stickers about how Allah was a faggot and the Iranian president a ninny. I wonder what would have happened? I wonder when Americans are going to wise up to the fact that in some countries they don't have the sense of humor about criticism that we do here. That it can be dangerous to travel abroad with a smug sense of superiority and invulnerability.
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in"
Not to belittle their situation, but anyone who's travelled much at all on public transport in London will be aware that they must not leave their belongings unattended "or they may be removed and possibly destroyed by the security services".
I'm not aware that it's happened to anyone I know, but the threat is there. Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Well, that doesn't play. If you really thought the laptop was a bomb you wouldn't give it back avec ou sans bullet generated ventilation holes.
And bombs aren't shot to disable them. Good grief: the result is totally unpredictable. Would it trigger: maybe, maybe not. Would shooting disable a bomb: maybe maybe not. Certainly, the laptop with holes would be a conversation piece with security at the next border crossing no matter where that was ;-)
The only reason to shoot it was to intimidate and to display arbitrary power.
Was that the right thing to do? Maybe: I don't live there and I haven't seen the things that a border security person has.
Seems to me that if they were suspicious of her it would be more prudent to seize the laptop and to either turn her away or to put her on a watch list.
I think the guards were pissed at her and meted out some self satisfying punishment.
This http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3319543,00.html ...
Translated should give some idea
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520
"... paid Internet talkbackers are being mobilized in the service in the service of the State. The Foreign Ministry is in the process of setting up a team of students and demobilized soldiers who will work around the clock writing pro-Israeli responses on Internet websites all over the world, and on services like Facebook, Twitter and Youtube..."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
She's not Jewish. She even says herself: "They quizzed me on Judaism, which I know nothing about" Read the Ha'Aretz article.
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
A few months back I accidentally left a bag on the Tube. All it had in it was some incredibly sweaty gym kit - I'd just done 90 minutes of Bikram Yoga. I realised what I'd done on the way home and was terrified that I'd carelessly brought the whole London public transport system to a halt, but thankfully it looks like they didn't call in the bomb squad.
If the London Underground staff member who cautiously opened that bag, fearful of it blowing up, only to find my soaking clothes in it, is reading this, I apologise unreservedly for the appalling sight that must have greeted you.
Arabic is one of Israel's two official languages. Why is it stupid to have Arabic stickers on your laptop? Because you're an ignoramus, would be my guess.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant. As is the question of whether an errant bomb/missile hit a school in a war zone (mistakes happen and collateral damage is tragic, but it's not like it's done on purpose). The question is, have the Israelis have lived with random bombings in civilian areas long enough to justify extreme security measures with regards to unattended bags and suspicious cases crossing the border? I think the answer to that question is "Yes".
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
What do you mean? Those bullets are single use only...
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
If we take the blog post at face value, everyone involved behaved rather stupidly. Both the border police (for shooting up the laptop), and the student (for not having a backup copy of her "years of work"). Meh.
I defy her, you or anyone to start mouthing off at an Egyptian or Iranian airport and see where you end up. It won't be in a queue filling out paperwork.
That's good. Israel should use that as a tourist tag line "Israel: we're at least as rational as Egypt and Iran". Makes me want to visit.
Look, just because another government is more oppressive doesn't make their actions any less ridiculous.
So which part do you disagree with? You don't feel that it's unfortunate? Or you don't believe it is reality?
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un or the lack of running water for so many people
More than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water, while 4,000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless; 80 government buildings were hit.[30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War or the ongoing dispute about construction of wells/water buildings + farming which Israel are preventing them from building (there are further links about the below, especially relating to actual construction and needs, and differences in water consumption, but no time to look them up at this moment)
According to reports, Israeli soldiers shoot towards farmers working on their lands along the buffer zone nearly every week...During Operation "Cast Lead" which ended in January 2009, private houses, workshops, cattle farms, tree groves, agricultural roads, water wells and rain-fed crop fields located within the area were demolished by the Israeli army.
So "unfortunate reality" that the poor israelis might have some bags and laptops shot given all the above, well yes, it does make me question if they have a sense of reality. Or perspective.
To respond to another post:-
Ohhh, I JUST love the "my side has it worse" game!
I'm not on anybody's side, except maybe the "let's not be hypocrites about this" side.
Would it be possible to design a bombWould it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily... that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily...
You do realize that that's the whole point, right ? Opening the bomb and attempting analysis is what's risky. By putting it in a safe place (against a wall and no roof over it) and then shooting it, you can make it explode safely, without hurting anyone.
The object of defusing a bomb stopped being actually defusing the bomb a long time ago. These days the object of defusing a bomb is to detonate it at a time and place of your choosing, instead of the time and place of the bomber's choosing, as just about every security force in the world has lost too many body parts and lives to defusing attempts.
Over 300 comments, most of them about how the girl deserved it because she had some Arabic stickers, or how the Israeli police is stupid and evil.
But the truth is: you don't know. You have no idea what happened there, what made the police suspect the girl, what she actually said to them, what they found in her luggage, or, hell, even if she was a terrorist, you'd have no way of knowing it.
All you've got is a short news article, and a short blog post, both very light on details. Even the girl doesn't know why the police blew up her laptop. The reporter knows even less. And you, the average slashdotter, know jack shit.
Seriously, people, get a grip.
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians.
It's a story about a fucking laptop, you twit. If there was ever a comment more deserving of an "off topic" mod, I haven't seen it.
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant.
Considering they mostly used it at daytime, it surely isn't.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
OMG! Laptop of a U.S citizens was hit! ah, someone talked about Palestinians being hit by bombs and bullets. Forget it! Did the US owner of the Laptop became unhappy?!
Because these are ISRAELI border guards. If they wanted to destroy a laptop that included sensitive information, they're smart enough to know to shoot the hard drive. See the million posts above on why the guards would have shot a potential bomb in this way.
You do realize that hamas, you know, lies. In addition to destroying their own people just for the attempt to kill a few Jews ?
But really : how much of what you read is propaganda, and how much of it is true ? Not that we don't all (including you) know that already, but hey, someone's got to ask the question.
Here are 2 pictures of a Gazan farm, built by Jews, that was given to Hamas :
before it was given to hamas
1 year later
(that's a weapons smuggling tunnel)
How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)
And btw, yes Hamas stole the election. Unfortunately, they would have won even if they hadn't stolen it according to polls. This existence is what Gazan muslims want, over 60% of them. Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.
The correct procedure, when coming in contact with a Mac, is to shoot it at least 5 times.
> Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist
> attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
The UK only *thinks* they have terrorism problems. (The US too, for that matter.)
Spend a few months living in Israel, and you'll find out how it really is.
I'm not saying shooting the laptop was necessarily justified or the right thing to do. I don't know enough of the details of the situation to say that. But I will say that there are some security measures that Israel absolutely *has* to take, that would be viewed as unacceptably harsh in places with relatively low levels of terrorist violence. Israel really has very little choice in the matter. They're basically living in a war zone, all the time.
Did I mention that the entire middle-east is officially not on my "places to be sure to visit" list? Call me a wuss if you want, but I prefer to live in an area where the word "terrorist" generally calls to mind news stories from several years ago and several hours' drive away. Small-town USA is good. Our town doesn't make the news much, and we *like* it that way.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
"I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts or the lack of running water for so many people"
The problem with this type of argument is it completely ignores intention.
You see, the issue is this, Israel, with it's military might, could kill far more than the death counts it does if it wanted to. Hamas, because they are constrained and only have highly inaccurate rockets can't. Israel does at least, contrary to popular belief try and hit militants not civilians, but the problem they face is two fold, firstly a militant with his AK-47 taken away is easily classed as a civilian, because they do not wear uniforms, and secondly, militants hide amongst the civilian population. I wont pretend there aren't some dickheads in the Israeli army who do attack civilians, and I wont pretend the Israeli military try and cover it up when it does happen. What is pretty clear though is that the Israeli military doesn't have a policy of intentionally killing as many civilians as possible, else they'd just napalm the shit out of downtown Gaza and get far higher casualty numbers in contrast.
Now on the other side of it, you have Hamas, Hamas do want to inflict civilian casualties on Israel, in fact, that's their goal, but fortunately they don't have the means to do so very successfully.
So the raw numbers are often used unfairly to demonise Israel, because you see, Israel's kill count is much lower than it could be if Israel wanted it higher, but it's also much lower than the civilian kill count Hamas would like to inflict on Israel. It becomes even more of an issue when you realise that Hamas using civilian cover is the whole reason many Palestinian civilians die in the first place- effectively Hamas put them in the line of fire by launching rockets from civilian errors- in this respect Israel has to decide whether they just take the fire and receive casualties themselves, or try and stop the fire and risk Palestinian civilian casualties, but also take out the militants too. Hamas then also must bear some responsibility for the Palestinian civilian casualties themselves.
Again, just to make it clear, I far from believe the Israelis are saints, but I do realise it's not a simple problem for them, and it does seem clear they don't for the majority part intentionally kill civilians. They do a lot wrong, but they're playing a far less dirty game than Hamas, and by falling for their game of using civilians as cover as you are, you're just encouraging them to do it because the propaganda they get from it due to people like yourself looking only at the figures, not the facts, or the fact they can't be shot at but can shoot and kill Israelis freely if they aren't stopped makes the situation win-win. Do the Palestinian civilians a favour and recognise the problem of Palestinian civilian deaths for what it is- a problem that both Hamas AND Israel are responsible for rather than falling for the Hamas propaganda and hence giving them ever more reason to continue to put Palestinian civilian lives in danger by keeping it a win-win situation for Hamas.
Feels more like they were little babies because they didnt agree with her on some subjects so they hurt the only thing they could. School playground antics from grown ups, awesome.
More likely that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
Fact 1: If you show up at an Israeli border crossing with a bunch of Arab stuff, you are going to be subjected to extra questioning.
Fact 2: If you leave a bag unattended in Israel, it will be assumed to be a bomb (for obvious reasons), and will be destroyed.
I'm guessing that when the guard saw all her Arab stuff, they told her to leave her bag and go get questioned. Then another guard saw an unattended bag and called the bomb squad, who destroyed it.
It sounds from the article like Israel is reimbursing Sussman for her loss, and I feel that's appropriate. They shouldn't have shot up her laptop.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Israel was created by a UN mandate. Had her neighbors peacefully accepted this mandate nobody would have been forced out of their homes. The original borders were largely drawn along the lines of where the Jews and Palestinians were already settled. Instead of accepting this mandate however her neighbors attempted to settle the matter with military force. Not once mind you, not twice, but three different times.
You can't really place all of the blame for the current situation on Israel, much as though you may want to. There's plenty of blame to go around on all sides.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Your attitude would directly increase the chances of more people being blown up in bus bombings.
And the attitude that any person who dislikes Israel should be treated like a criminal and denied basic rights does far more damage than any misguided kid's political views.
There isn't much difference between Israelis complaining about Palestinian violence and early pioneers complaining about Native American violence. If you take someone's land and property with force, they will probably do whatever they can to retaliate. If you don't want them to use terrorist tactics, have the US give the same amount of weapons to Palestine as it does to Israel. I'm sure the two state solution would suddenly be vastly more appealing to the hardliners who still want to steal Palestinian land under the guise of security.
First - My work place was on the 3rd floor overlooking a main post office. I remember a case where someone left his groceries when he picked up his mail from his mailbox. About 20m later, we saw the guy sprinting back a few blocks down the street. However, the bomb disposal people were at ground level... and their robot shot his bag before he could get close enough for them to see him. Veggies everywhere. So no, this isn't picking up on someone in particular. Leave a bag unattended in a sensitive public place, and this may happen to you - regardless of who and what you are.
Second - I am sure this girl had a most unpleasant time. She is overlooking the fact that she wasn't a suspect as such. If you were a terrorist trying to smuggle a bomb into a high security area, a good way would be to plant it on some young, sympathetic, naive, idealistic western girl who is "obviously" not a terrorist - a profile this girl fit to a T. To rule this out you need to ask a lot of invasive, personal, seemingly irrelevant questions. If this sounds far fetched to you, read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezar_Hindawi who planted a bomb in his pregnant Irish fiance's bag. I am certain she went through a most unpleasant time as well. I am also certain she appreciated keeping her and her baby's lives. I am also certain all the other passengers on her flight appreciated continuing living, too. And the crew. And all their families. And friends.
The bottom line is that security in Israel is different from the USA. Instead of inflicting ineffective, mindless, low-level nuisance on everyone, it focuses on people who may (knowingly or unknowingly) pose a risk and gives them a thoroughly unpleasant, but effective, screening. This method works. And for most people, Israeli security is a much more pleasant experience than going through USA security. Of course, for the few who end up getting the 3rd degree, it is much worse.
I don't believe Palestine in any incarnation was party to the UN mandate. Did they have any voice at all in the UN?
It was *decided* that portions would be carved up and given to the Jewish people who had settled there. But the disaffected parties weren't given any say in the matter; just 'accept this'.
Little wonder they didn't care for it much...
I completely agree blame is well spread in this case. That was my original point, it takes 2 parties. Or as others commented, just one to start the problem, which was the UN/Israel who started it.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
The British.
Nope, the British were adamant that Jewish mass emigration to Palestine shouldn't happen because it would end in violence between Palestinians and Jews. As a result, Jewish terrorists frequently attached the British authorities in Palestine. When an exhausted Britain pulled out of Palestine, having been bankrupted by World War II, the Jewish terrorists became militias that massacred and expelled Palestinians. These groups then went on to declare the existence of the state of Israel.
Saddest of all, is that the state of Israel enshrines the extermination of Jews in World War II as its right to exist. This is despite the fact that it was founded on racially motivated genocide against Palestinians, is increasingly dominated by reactionary religious groups, and was founded by groups who were largely hostile to the European Jews who had suffered in World War II (they were held to have brought it on themselves by not emigrating to Palestine earlier).
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
So that justifies massacres and expulsions? This is the same pro-Israel disinformation that claims Palestinians are just Jordanians/Syrians/Lebanese (choose as per your particular prejudice), and therefore not worth a damn. This is despite them having a longstanding cultural identity that is different to their neighbours.
In the words of Wikipedia, citation please.
Is it before or after Article 4, which states:
Or Article 18?
Here's an idea, it's novel, I know. How about you go to the Palestinian Constitution, which I helpfully linked above, and show us this "not a joke" claim you're making, "it's true, really it is" about the goal of "death to Jews and all non-Muslims".
Because beyond that, you ARE a troll.
Trouble is, most Jews I run into that speak out (apparently, like yourself) can't separate hatred of Jews from disagreement with retarded Israeli behaviors. I can think Israel is full of shit without hating the country or the people it. But, apparently, a ton of Jews can't figure that out and attempt to discredit people that disagree with them as anti-Semites. Frankly, pathetic.
PS: sometimes, as with the US, there is a reason why people can't stand your country.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. I guess it didn't legally apply until 1949 so while territory occupied prior to that may not be relevant to the debate, the territory occupied from the 1967 war is very much relevant.