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Israeli Border Police Shoot US Student's Laptop
zerothink writes "American student Lily Sussman, 21, upon entry into Israel from Taba (Egypt, Sinai) caught Israeli border police in grumpy mood — after two hours of questions and searching through her belongings they decided to put three bullets through her laptop. Explanation? 'I'm sorry but we had to blow up your laptop.' Haaretz also covered the story." All three bullets missed the hard disk.
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
Give idiots power and they act up every time. Those soldiers belong in prison.
But this is what happens if you don't set up partitions properly.
What.all my client case notes and testimony, writing, pictures, music and applications. Years of work. NO!!!! What?? Are you insane?? What were you thinking? THAT’S ALL MY WORK!?
What? There are a million and one things that could happen to a nice shiny laptop while travelling, if your data is that important it's pretty stupid not to backup, especially before travelling.
She will be reimbursed on her shot MacBook.
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Nothing new to me. It even beats American airport security paranoia, I hear.
Here's an outline of the security measures at the train station near my home (minor suburban station with about a train an hour):
Before I enter the station, I see guard dogs, handled by security officers (in their 20s). They're actually a bit cute. Except they have sharp teeth and they're trained to kill etc.
I have to take my bags and put them through an X-ray machine, examined by a clueless security officer. I also have to step through a metal detector in case I have a gun/knife on me (never gets triggered by my belt and house keys)
Then as the train arrives, commuters are instructed not to board it until "security examinations" are finished (even if it's the back-and-forth shuttle train that only has two stops).
All train personnal are armed with a pistol. Including drivers. ... And then a 20 year old soldier walks in carrying an M16 and ammo which he is somehow allowed to because he has a slip of paper and uniform.
Security at its finest!
o hai
who wouldnt want to put three bullets through a Mac?
Safety and security procedures in Israel are strict, but effective and generally well applied. Terrorists often send 'innocent' foreigners with equipment across the border to test procedures. They now know what does not work. As far as the woman involved concerned, just reading the leaflets with info available at all embassies and airlines would have prevented her laptop in need of replacement.
Or would the value of this on Ebay be rather high? Higher than a working model.
armed thugs stop the travellers on a regular basis, and demand all sorts of things from them, at gun point. like removing clothing, penetration of clothing (tap search inside pants), stealing items like water bottles and knifes, or destroying property as here. in worst cases they can even enslave you (called arrest and inprisonment now, or rendition)
this is not much different from the middle ages, where bandits would stop travellers, and demand all sorts of things from them at the threat of physical violence. at least, at that time one could prepare and fight back.
Clearly, the iMac was not mobile enough comparing to the bullets.
Homer Simpson?
Based on her current and past posts it is obvious she is anti-israeli. Israel like any country has the right to protect its borders and the security of the state with all means. Trying to harm border guards is not something unheard of there is even a video of a successful attempt running on youtube (www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyAMSh_yLo) Israel is known to have strict protocols when dealing with suspicious objects (Which includes laptops or any other unattended bags left in any area). I have seen this in action more than once. I.e baggage left accidentally at the bus station will probably get blown up by a bombsquad in a matter of minutes since it has been reported (after the area has been cleared). It's the same in every border in the world. Even laughing about a bomb will get you arrested in most places and probably deported. Don't forget she had arab stickers on her laptop, a picture of a star of david defaced, she has beenliving in Egypt (While it has peaceful relationships with israel , egypt is known to be home for many terrorist cells). The fact is that the laptop was suspicious and got blown up to eliminate a possible threat. Based on Israeli officials she will be reimbursed for the laptop - Hey look on the bright side - she could buy a new MacBook Air
...with three bullets holes in it would give Steve Balmer a chubby.
What? Her blog goes back a few months. You know, that little drop down list thingy at the top...
Anonymous Disingenuous Coward of lies, who you workin for?
The bullets would have bounced off. But it does figure that angsty types would have an apple product.
Sent from my PDP-11
so they disposed of it how almost every group disables potential bombs, by shooting it.
Would it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily...
(not that I encourage bombing stuff)
On other news websites, "Thankfully, noone was killed". On Slashdot, "All three bullets missed the hard disc".
SURELY NOT!!!!!
I've crossed into Israel at this particular border point, around 5 years ago, and yes it was one of the hardest border crossings I've ever done, we were part of a tourist party who were going to be in Israel for around 30 minutes (a quick drive through Elat then out into Jordan), and its not somewhere I would take anything bigger than a camera I would even if I could empty the card before I went through. Everything was Xrayed, the metal detectors were so sensitive every scrap of metal was detected, a few people having to remove jeans with quite a few studs, your personal property was swabbed and checked for explosives and then once through there you were grilled about your personal details at passport control, quite a few people getting long grillings. All under the watch of guys with automatic weapons. It wasn't a place you made any kind of joke, you do exactly as you are told. At the time I though it was overkill then a week later this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Sinai_bombings, a terrorist attack aimed at the Israelis pretty much at that border point (although on the Egyptian side), kind of puts it all into perspective. Saying that since that border crossing, I am a lot more careful what I take with me, laptops and cameras fully backed up, and only take essentials, even bought a travel laptop so my main machine would stay safe at home. Everything electrical packed into one easy to search bag. Jen
You have to be pretty goddamn stupid to fly into a fanatical military state like Israel from a Muslim country with a laptop covered in Arabic stickers. What's the next leg of her journey? From Israel to Iran wearing a star of David and demanding a kosher meal?
Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
Would it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot?
Sure. Just carry a jar of nitroglycerine. The trick with that one is, rather, not to have it go off because you looked at it wrong.
It was shot by Israeli Police, not the IDF.
Shachar
Is this worse than US borders seizures ?
US border patrols can confiscate your electronic devices (computer, ipod, etc ...) according to their judgement, with or without reason. ...
They can hold it as long as they need (great if you are a business traveler, I suppose they can get intelligence on some businesses that way) and should give it back to you if nothing is found (sorta) - someday
What Al Queda stickers? What political statements?
Her blog only said Arabic stickers. AFAIK, the language is not (nor is speaking it or appreciating it) against any laws.
Also bullies. That said, these guards are in one of the places in the world where someone with a bomb coming through is actually plausible, so I can understand them being a bit jumpy. Still I have a feeling this has more to do with nationalism than it does with doing their jobs.
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
Admittedly, it does not sound as if shooting the laptop (and the display, of all things) was necessary, or even helpful. Having said that, the Israeli procedure seem to be:
Contrast and compare that with the US customs, which says:
Even on sheer "friendliness", I'm not sure which I prefer.
Shachar
Who the hell said anything about Al-Qaeda stickers? All she said is the stickers where arabic.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
The reason they're shooting it is to *try* to make it go off.
Typically this would be put in a bomb pit somewhere nearby. From reading the comments this is fairly common practice there. This one nailed it pretty well:
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in, where Palestinian terrorist would do anything (such as put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops) to intentionally hurt innocent civilians. These are precaution measures intended to prevent loss of innocent lives (yes, sometimes at the cost of a cherished laptop because of a possibly careless border officer)."
Datan blev skjuten tre gånger - men alla dödskulor missade modermodemet, själva hjärtat i datans hårddisk.
I've never heard of such crazyness What's the world coming to
Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards. I don't believe that justifies their reaction, and wouldn't be surprised if they are disciplined (which will, of course, generate zero coverage outside of Israel), but most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.
Damn right, this is the country that has been said to have a policy of shooting unarmed civilians by one of its own army snipers.
"Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time."
Full Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/30/israel
Ok, the guy in question may have been saying this just to save his own skin as he was on trial for murder, but the large number of people, including children, killed in Gaza last year does make you wonder if maybe he was telling the truth.
I dont read
And she entered with her nice little laptop 'puter with the star of David on it and some stickers about how Allah was a faggot and the Iranian president a ninny. I wonder what would have happened? I wonder when Americans are going to wise up to the fact that in some countries they don't have the sense of humor about criticism that we do here. That it can be dangerous to travel abroad with a smug sense of superiority and invulnerability.
This nonsense gets modded "Insightful"? The only people transported from US territory to Gitmo have been a couple of bonafide Al Quaeda operatives who were actually involved in the 9-11 conspirace, so far as I know. Everyone else are people who were picked up on foreign territory making war against U.S. forces--i.e. prisoners of war. Gitmo has got its problems, but unless I'm completely misinformed, transporting people from U.S. soil or even U.S. entry points there is not one of them. If this had been the U.S., and she had been arrested, she would have had full due process in the U.S. legal system and U.S. prisons.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in"
Not to belittle their situation, but anyone who's travelled much at all on public transport in London will be aware that they must not leave their belongings unattended "or they may be removed and possibly destroyed by the security services".
I'm not aware that it's happened to anyone I know, but the threat is there. Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Any chance of a translation?
Requiem for the American Dream
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in, where Palestinian terrorist would do anything (such as put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops) to intentionally hurt innocent civilians..."
I can hardly believe some people. Broken laptop vs white phosphorus? Broken laptop vs bombed UN school?! "Unfortunate reality" my backside, I really wonder if some of them know anything whatsoever about reality.
Well, that doesn't play. If you really thought the laptop was a bomb you wouldn't give it back avec ou sans bullet generated ventilation holes.
And bombs aren't shot to disable them. Good grief: the result is totally unpredictable. Would it trigger: maybe, maybe not. Would shooting disable a bomb: maybe maybe not. Certainly, the laptop with holes would be a conversation piece with security at the next border crossing no matter where that was ;-)
The only reason to shoot it was to intimidate and to display arbitrary power.
Was that the right thing to do? Maybe: I don't live there and I haven't seen the things that a border security person has.
Seems to me that if they were suspicious of her it would be more prudent to seize the laptop and to either turn her away or to put her on a watch list.
I think the guards were pissed at her and meted out some self satisfying punishment.
This http://www.calcalist.co.il/internet/articles/0,7340,L-3319543,00.html ...
Translated should give some idea
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520
"... paid Internet talkbackers are being mobilized in the service in the service of the State. The Foreign Ministry is in the process of setting up a team of students and demobilized soldiers who will work around the clock writing pro-Israeli responses on Internet websites all over the world, and on services like Facebook, Twitter and Youtube..."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Three bullets put in Mac. Nothing of value was lost.
With all the secret provisions of the PATRIOT ACT, whose' really to say?
to visit a bunch of religious fanatics and fascists?
This is why I skipped Israel on my way from Turkey to Egypt.
BTW, Syria was simply lovely.
More specifically, the stickers are on the keys of the keyboard. As labels.
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone -passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
Just a little travel tip for those considering visiting this fine mecca. Apparently, "sticks and stones" do indeed break many bones, and apparently words DO hurt them. This is why Cops isn't syndicated worldwide on TV. Pull the spitting and cursing shit when getting arrested anywhere else, and you'll probably be shot on sight. Doesn't make for good TV when it's always the same ending.
These police will likely get no real reprimand for this, yet we actually have illegal immigrants who have the balls to protest about their "rights" in the US. If we had border patrol even half as effective as other countries, we would be 100 times better off today. Not necessarily saying the actions were 100% right here, just pointing out the obvious.
Sounds like a typical college twit with a chip on their shoulder who saw nothing wrong with purposely baiting authorities. We only have her side so of course she wants to come off as clean and pristine, yet the items and such on her point to either someone incredibly stupid or someone intentionally trying to cause a scene.
The problem is, you don't cause scenes where people put their lives on the line every day. I don't care what stupid tripe you think you know or learned at home. The real world is a whole different place and it don't care what you think. In some areas of the world the last thing you want to do is bring notice to yourself. Check points are the last place in the world I would want to screw up.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
She's not Jewish. She even says herself: "They quizzed me on Judaism, which I know nothing about" Read the Ha'Aretz article.
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
Wait a minute.... "This might be a bomb... better shoot it"
At best, it's nothing. At worst, you set off the bomb.... which is what the terrorist probably intended anyway. Now, most commercial and military explosives won't detonate when shot, but if you're seriously counting on terrorists to use commercially available explosives and follow proper bomb making procedure then you're pretty fucking stupid. Seems to me there's a pretty high risk of jury-rigged unstable explosives being in terrorist-made bombs.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Since she was lucky and the hard drive wasn't hit, it was probably better in the end for her than what would have happened to her if she tried to enter the US with a laptop with Al-Qaeda stickers on it. Under the old rules (which supposedly have been changed under Obama), the TSA could arbitrarily seize the laptop for an indefinite period of time for investigation.
The equivalent would be to have a "fuck america" sticker and any mainstream 2003 French newspaper talking about the Iraq war.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Don't feed the trolls. This one is obviously a racist who links "arab" with "terrorist" or a moron who didn't bother to read the article.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
"I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in, where Palestinian terrorist would do anything (such as put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops) to intentionally hurt innocent civilians..."
I can hardly believe some people. Broken laptop vs white phosphorus? Broken laptop vs bombed UN school?!
"Unfortunate reality" my backside, I really wonder if some of them know anything whatsoever about reality.
So which part do you disagree with? You don't feel that it's unfortunate? Or you don't believe it is reality?
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
A few months back I accidentally left a bag on the Tube. All it had in it was some incredibly sweaty gym kit - I'd just done 90 minutes of Bikram Yoga. I realised what I'd done on the way home and was terrified that I'd carelessly brought the whole London public transport system to a halt, but thankfully it looks like they didn't call in the bomb squad.
If the London Underground staff member who cautiously opened that bag, fearful of it blowing up, only to find my soaking clothes in it, is reading this, I apologise unreservedly for the appalling sight that must have greeted you.
I believe that behind all these is Bill. If Lily had a Windows 7 laptop they will not blow her laptop up, not even question her...
Seriously, in most of the countries if you are accused for something, you are innocent until it is proved otherwise. In Israel is the other way round, you are guilty and you have to prove(which is very difficult) that you are not...
Until the skies turn blue...
Until the air of freedom strikes us...
Arabic is one of Israel's two official languages. Why is it stupid to have Arabic stickers on your laptop? Because you're an ignoramus, would be my guess.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant. As is the question of whether an errant bomb/missile hit a school in a war zone (mistakes happen and collateral damage is tragic, but it's not like it's done on purpose). The question is, have the Israelis have lived with random bombings in civilian areas long enough to justify extreme security measures with regards to unattended bags and suspicious cases crossing the border? I think the answer to that question is "Yes".
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Yes, and isn't there an easier and safer way to tell if a laptop is a bomb besides shooting it?
How did they know her cellphone wasn't a bomb? Did they shoot that, too?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Ironically, this story might get more traction than Israel killing non-Americans since the laptop photo will look nice on TV.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Yeah I guess I'd be in a grumpy mood too if I lived in a country where attacks are a regular part of every day life, and my responsibility as a guard at a particularly volatile border crossing was to prevent such attacks. I've been in Aqaba and Taba, cities on each side of and within view of Elat; the Jordanians and Egyptians I met refused to even refer to the city as Elat, out of animosity towards Israel.
The thing that pissed me off most about this was that she hadn't backed up whatever was so dreadfully important ("omfg that's all mah work!") Sure it's inconvenient, but that's about it. After all, they'll reimburse her for her laptop; she'll get a new macbook for her trouble.
Given the political statements on her laptop, one wonders what kind of provocation she might have tried with the guards.
Exactly the sort that she would never try in an Arab country, where she would quietly disappear and it would be a very long time before she could post indignant messages on her blog like a spoiled little attention whore.
You are quite right about the TSA and the matter would receive no attention at all, except for the fact Israel was involved and some people can't help themselves.
most rational people understand that baiting Israelis is a rather dangerous sport.
I guess we can conclude that the Arabs aren't rational then. They've been baiting the Jewish state for the last century and always act surprised when they get their asses handed to them. Then again, you've got to question the rationale of someone who regards their child blowing himself up, as a good thing.
As for taunting border guards, a good rule of thumb is: Never hassle a guy who has the legal right and authority to fist your ass.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
I don't know, I think a bag of shot dvds is not as bad as a shot laptop.
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
Go on then. Tell us how her speech was limited in any way.
She's spouting her mouth off. Doesn't strike me as your typical prisoner of conscience. Just a spoiled attention whore who needed a dose of reality outside college campus.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
If we take the blog post at face value, everyone involved behaved rather stupidly. Both the border police (for shooting up the laptop), and the student (for not having a backup copy of her "years of work"). Meh.
If you bothered to RTFA, you'd have seen the pics and noticed that her laptop didn't have "Al-Qaeda" stickers on it, it had stickers on the keys so that she could type in Arabic without having to keep a screen up showing her what keys to press.
I have to say, this bullshit definitely cements my "Leave Israel to take care of themselves" sentiment.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
I defy her, you or anyone to start mouthing off at an Egyptian or Iranian airport and see where you end up. It won't be in a queue filling out paperwork.
That's good. Israel should use that as a tourist tag line "Israel: we're at least as rational as Egypt and Iran". Makes me want to visit.
Look, just because another government is more oppressive doesn't make their actions any less ridiculous.
So which part do you disagree with? You don't feel that it's unfortunate? Or you don't believe it is reality?
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un or the lack of running water for so many people
More than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water, while 4,000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless; 80 government buildings were hit.[30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War or the ongoing dispute about construction of wells/water buildings + farming which Israel are preventing them from building (there are further links about the below, especially relating to actual construction and needs, and differences in water consumption, but no time to look them up at this moment)
According to reports, Israeli soldiers shoot towards farmers working on their lands along the buffer zone nearly every week...During Operation "Cast Lead" which ended in January 2009, private houses, workshops, cattle farms, tree groves, agricultural roads, water wells and rain-fed crop fields located within the area were demolished by the Israeli army.
So "unfortunate reality" that the poor israelis might have some bags and laptops shot given all the above, well yes, it does make me question if they have a sense of reality. Or perspective.
To respond to another post:-
Ohhh, I JUST love the "my side has it worse" game!
I'm not on anybody's side, except maybe the "let's not be hypocrites about this" side.
If we are into misleading titles then here i gave you another one. In that part of the world (among others too) - you don't leave unattended belognings. You can blame the jews for every wrong doing in the world - but the police there is not grumpy because of bad doughnuts - maybe its because a fucking arab blew in the border a week before. Get your facts right idiot!
what comes out when you combine
a) the Indian police shooting the moon at a solar eclipse in i think 1908 or something like that, and
b) preschool children destroying each other’s stuff, because they are angry at each other.
Or
a) that uncontacted tribe shooting arrows at the helicopter above them in 2008, and
b) a couple of monkeys going crazy and trashing each other’s belongings.
But I don’t want to insult any Indians, tribes, children or monkeys. ;)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Just like in the US, they wanted to make an example out of her, to show who was in control, try also taking them to court over it,
good luck! They have no real rights over there, I wonder if they would have done the same for a man???
Would it be possible to design a bombWould it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily... that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily...
You do realize that that's the whole point, right ? Opening the bomb and attempting analysis is what's risky. By putting it in a safe place (against a wall and no roof over it) and then shooting it, you can make it explode safely, without hurting anyone.
The object of defusing a bomb stopped being actually defusing the bomb a long time ago. These days the object of defusing a bomb is to detonate it at a time and place of your choosing, instead of the time and place of the bomber's choosing, as just about every security force in the world has lost too many body parts and lives to defusing attempts.
Over 300 comments, most of them about how the girl deserved it because she had some Arabic stickers, or how the Israeli police is stupid and evil.
But the truth is: you don't know. You have no idea what happened there, what made the police suspect the girl, what she actually said to them, what they found in her luggage, or, hell, even if she was a terrorist, you'd have no way of knowing it.
All you've got is a short news article, and a short blog post, both very light on details. Even the girl doesn't know why the police blew up her laptop. The reporter knows even less. And you, the average slashdotter, know jack shit.
Seriously, people, get a grip.
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians.
It's a story about a fucking laptop, you twit. If there was ever a comment more deserving of an "off topic" mod, I haven't seen it.
Exactly.
The UN has consistently refused to explain why they allow Hamas members to launch rockets from within kindergardens. Doesn't that qualify as material support and general aid to terrorists ?
Whether the Israeli military used white phosphorous when targeting civilians (the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot) is irrelevant.
Considering they mostly used it at daytime, it surely isn't.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Ohhh, I JUST love the "my side has it worse" game! Why, in MY day, we had broken laptops IN bombed UN schools!
It's a story about a fucking laptop, you twit. If there was ever a comment more deserving of an "off topic" mod, I haven't seen it.
Uh huh? Yeah, I play that game on my laptop all the time.
I wonder if she'll pay for this sort of thing in the future?: http://download.cnet.com/BulletProof-FTP-Client-2009/3000-2160_4-10009523.html
Wait. Stop scrolling for a sec. O.K. Thanks. - P
No, you were trying to turn this into an Israel v. Palestine thread - the most boring, overly discussed subject clueless people like to get angry about.
In a way, the original poster started it, with the bit about the cowardly Palestinian terrorists, but you were all too eager to bite.
Water disputes? WTF does this have to do with anything?
OMG! Laptop of a U.S citizens was hit! ah, someone talked about Palestinians being hit by bombs and bullets. Forget it! Did the US owner of the Laptop became unhappy?!
Because these are ISRAELI border guards. If they wanted to destroy a laptop that included sensitive information, they're smart enough to know to shoot the hard drive. See the million posts above on why the guards would have shot a potential bomb in this way.
Sure. Have 2 conductive plates separated by an insulator. Each one should be connected to the circuit in the manner of a switch. Make sure that you have redundant circuitry in case a bullet hits a vital part of the circuitry. If the plate is compromised, then it will likely cause a connection, and subsequent triggering. Alternately, you could use a thin container of mercury which when compromised, would spill out and complete the circuit. Dear DHS/FBI, I am not a bomb maker, just a geek that likes to think about problems and hypothetical engineering like this, and express it through his First Amendment right of free speech. Please leave me alone, as I have NO intention of making/using a bomb (baring the odd firecracker or bottle rocket). I am not a threat, and I do not need to be dragged from my house in my underwear, and interrogated for hours on end. There is nothing to see here. Thank you, Ustice
One never knows when one might need a rotten tomato... - King's Quest IV: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow
You do realize that hamas, you know, lies. In addition to destroying their own people just for the attempt to kill a few Jews ?
But really : how much of what you read is propaganda, and how much of it is true ? Not that we don't all (including you) know that already, but hey, someone's got to ask the question.
Here are 2 pictures of a Gazan farm, built by Jews, that was given to Hamas :
before it was given to hamas
1 year later
(that's a weapons smuggling tunnel)
How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)
And btw, yes Hamas stole the election. Unfortunately, they would have won even if they hadn't stolen it according to polls. This existence is what Gazan muslims want, over 60% of them. Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.
I'm not so much angry about the whole situation as annoyed + taken aback at the out-of-perspective whining. Of course if someone is going to demand details about a comment I'll post up what I meant. I'm well aware I don't know enough about it which is why I said I'm not on anybody's side.
As an ethnic Jew, I can tell ya that it's possible to be extremely ignorant about your birth religion, but to proclaim you know "nothing about it" strikes me as being...well, not possible.
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
Or maybe they were following strict, but reasonable (under the circumstances) procedures.
The correct procedure, when coming in contact with a Mac, is to shoot it at least 5 times.
And let's not forget - the question is ALSO if Hamas has used civilian areas to stage attacks and launch missiles. Fortunately, international law is quite sane on the subject. If Hamas did use civilian structures to stage and execute attacks, Gazans don't get ANY protection under international law.
Anyone is perfectly justified to bomb a rocket launcher. This does not change if that rocket launcher is put in the middle of a UN kindergarden. In trade for protection against attacks, the UN is forced to keep any soldiers involved in any type of attacks out of it's installations.
Furthermore the taking of hostages, the random destruction of property (like with katushya's) and so on are all grave war crimes. When will gazans/hamas/islam (whatever you wish to call the problem) be brought to justice ?
How did they know her cellphone wasn't a bomb? Did they shoot that, too?
The size. An effective bomb has a minimum size and weight. Generally anything lighter and smaller than a pistol can be discounted. Only someone with extensive chemical resources and knowledge will be able to make an effective bomb of realistic size.
Cell phones are only dangerous because they make very good radio detonators.
> Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist
> attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
The UK only *thinks* they have terrorism problems. (The US too, for that matter.)
Spend a few months living in Israel, and you'll find out how it really is.
I'm not saying shooting the laptop was necessarily justified or the right thing to do. I don't know enough of the details of the situation to say that. But I will say that there are some security measures that Israel absolutely *has* to take, that would be viewed as unacceptably harsh in places with relatively low levels of terrorist violence. Israel really has very little choice in the matter. They're basically living in a war zone, all the time.
Did I mention that the entire middle-east is officially not on my "places to be sure to visit" list? Call me a wuss if you want, but I prefer to live in an area where the word "terrorist" generally calls to mind news stories from several years ago and several hours' drive away. Small-town USA is good. Our town doesn't make the news much, and we *like* it that way.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
There's a simpler solution - don't feed the trolls.
So much for Apples and their fancy titanium cases. The thing can't even stop a few measly bullets.
The UN is useless with no real authority. So theUN doesn'tdo much except provide a place for diplomacy to start.
Second the war crimes report on gaza states that Hamas was firing rockets from schools. But since Hamas isn't a country ithe UN is even more useless than normal.
Third targetting civilians is a bigger headline than Hamas using human shields out of childern.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Well, at least you weren't arrested for "leaving something that a reasonable person may think is a weapon of mass destruction."
But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
...the first time was fine, but they broke my passport (by accident, the ID page basically detached from the booklet) on my way back into Egypt. The second time, I crossed with the same (fixed with superglue) passport a few weeks later. Much shouting and pointing of guns ensued - and they took my shoes and belt away for chemical testing or something. Weirdest freaking border crossing I've ever had, but considering the shit the Israelis have to put up with it's sort of understandable, I guess. Sampsa
I guess since the analogy wasn't a car one nobody on Slashdot could see it as anything other than a literal statement rather than analogy.
Nowhere was it claimed the woman had Al Qaeda sticker on the laptop. An analogy was drawn between entering the US with possessions indicating possible support of Al Qaeda, and trying to enter Israel with a laptop that has "Fuck Star of David" photos, photos of Israel's actions in Gaza, Arabic stickers, plus she's carrying other items such as stamps from Syria, Qatar and the UAE, Palestinians in Palestine guidebook, and a map a friend had drawn with a main street in Jerusalem, the central bus station and her intended hostel.
At best, it's nothing. At worst, you set off the bomb....
Absolutely right, technically and yet, completely wrong ... you see, you forget that by shooting the bomb, you get to choose the time & place of it's detonation. It's not like they shot the laptop while the woman was holding it, 1 meter in front of themselves. They took it off her, ran outside, placed the bag in an open space against a wall and then shot it from behind a shield, with bullets made especially for the purpose (that do, obviously, set off just about any explosive material).
Even if the bullets leave the bomb material in a ready-to-explode state, chances are good they've hit the controlling circuitry denying terrorists the capability of remote detonation. At the very least, they will cause problems once the detonation is spreading through the explosive material, greatly diminishing the power of the blast.
Bombs are not all that powerful. Their purpose is not simply to explode. Their purpose is to explode within at most a few meters of their target, so that they kill, or maim. By shooting the bomb you are preventing the damage intended.
Backup your laptop before traveling overseas...you never know if customs might shoot it.
I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians
Define innocent civilian. If a person is housing a terrorist are they innocent? In the US if you house a criminal you can go to jail also - you do realize that? For decades terrorists would hide in their relatives homes using those homes as human body shelters (real humanitarians). The trigger-man is not the only guilty party - and if you harbor a terrorist you are supporting that person (nobody really cares if the terrorist is your kid) and will get hit in a bomb. It's a big issue - terrorists typically hide in homes of "civilians" but terrorists and their supporters don't follow the rules of engagement. They don't wear uniforms. They don't identify themselves (hell they wear masks).
So "unfortunate reality" that the poor israelis might have some bags and laptops shot given all the above, well yes, it does make me question if they have a sense of reality. Or perspective.
If it's thought to be an explosive device and they don't have a bomb unit then shooting it up, at distance, makes a lot of sense actually. If it doesn't blow up then oops, and they could compensate the person for the laptop, if it does blowup they saved lives.
Israel has lived under the real threat/actions of war and terrorism for decades - they are going to go to do things like this - and I wouldn't be surprised if US did something like this.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
Apparently, she is an ethnic Jew, but not a religious Jew. "They quizzed me on Judaism, which I know nothing about" doesn't contradict her being ethnically Jewish.
Of course she is. You know, all ethnic Jews finish off their blog posts by saying "Insha’allah I will like Israel better tomorrow."
"I disagree with the emotive language implying that Palestinians are the only ones killing innocent civilians. Particularly given differences in death counts or the lack of running water for so many people"
The problem with this type of argument is it completely ignores intention.
You see, the issue is this, Israel, with it's military might, could kill far more than the death counts it does if it wanted to. Hamas, because they are constrained and only have highly inaccurate rockets can't. Israel does at least, contrary to popular belief try and hit militants not civilians, but the problem they face is two fold, firstly a militant with his AK-47 taken away is easily classed as a civilian, because they do not wear uniforms, and secondly, militants hide amongst the civilian population. I wont pretend there aren't some dickheads in the Israeli army who do attack civilians, and I wont pretend the Israeli military try and cover it up when it does happen. What is pretty clear though is that the Israeli military doesn't have a policy of intentionally killing as many civilians as possible, else they'd just napalm the shit out of downtown Gaza and get far higher casualty numbers in contrast.
Now on the other side of it, you have Hamas, Hamas do want to inflict civilian casualties on Israel, in fact, that's their goal, but fortunately they don't have the means to do so very successfully.
So the raw numbers are often used unfairly to demonise Israel, because you see, Israel's kill count is much lower than it could be if Israel wanted it higher, but it's also much lower than the civilian kill count Hamas would like to inflict on Israel. It becomes even more of an issue when you realise that Hamas using civilian cover is the whole reason many Palestinian civilians die in the first place- effectively Hamas put them in the line of fire by launching rockets from civilian errors- in this respect Israel has to decide whether they just take the fire and receive casualties themselves, or try and stop the fire and risk Palestinian civilian casualties, but also take out the militants too. Hamas then also must bear some responsibility for the Palestinian civilian casualties themselves.
Again, just to make it clear, I far from believe the Israelis are saints, but I do realise it's not a simple problem for them, and it does seem clear they don't for the majority part intentionally kill civilians. They do a lot wrong, but they're playing a far less dirty game than Hamas, and by falling for their game of using civilians as cover as you are, you're just encouraging them to do it because the propaganda they get from it due to people like yourself looking only at the figures, not the facts, or the fact they can't be shot at but can shoot and kill Israelis freely if they aren't stopped makes the situation win-win. Do the Palestinian civilians a favour and recognise the problem of Palestinian civilian deaths for what it is- a problem that both Hamas AND Israel are responsible for rather than falling for the Hamas propaganda and hence giving them ever more reason to continue to put Palestinian civilian lives in danger by keeping it a win-win situation for Hamas.
Sight? Try "smell."
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
Putting the laptop downrange and pulling a trigger is pretty damn easy and safe if you give the 'bomb' enough distance.
It's cheap too. Especially compared to calling in a bomb squad.
Militaries do the same thing for some explosive ordinance disposal.
I think shooting the laptop's battery could have caused quite a bit of damage.
Seriously, as a former sys admin I can't count the number of times I've wanted to put three slugs into somebody else's computer.
My solution to the whole mess?
Next time they start shooting at each other, just sit back and let them shoot. When one side is beaten into oblivion, they surrender, unconditionally. The other side writes the law, the beaten side obeys, or else.
And, I don't give a small rat's ass which side wins.
A year or two of all-out warfare, for survival, winner takes all, will ultimately mean fewer casualties than decades (or centuries) of off-again, on-again guerilla warfare and terrorism on both sides.
I'm half a century old (plus a couple years) and this shit's been going on for longer than I've been alive. Fight it out, get it over with. This silly assed squabble has gotten BORING!! There's never anything new, never any good news, never any peace. Just alternating open warfare, and covert warfare, interspersed with a terrorist attack. Fucking inbred idiots - on BOTH sides!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Awesome! So if I were a terrorist, all I would have to do is leave a bag with impact detonated explosives laying around, and security will set it off for me? Sweet!
Define innocent civilian. If a person is housing a terrorist are they innocent? In the US if you house a criminal you can go to jail also - you do realize that?
I fell into the trap of "innocent civilian" myself, while quoting the original. Civilian is civilian. And since US law has nothing to do with me, I didn't know. But it surely makes sense.
If it's thought to be an explosive device and they don't have a bomb unit then shooting it up, at distance, makes a lot of sense actually
I'm sure it makes sense, that wasn't my point. My original point was disbelief that they were complaining about something relatively very minor as bags being shot, and portraying this as being part of their long-suffering victim status. In the grand scheme of things, it might be an inconvenience, but it's not something to add to the "look how we suffer" list considering what's going on on THEIR side.
No, no confusion here. Like I said, I'm ethnically Jewish so I know what I'm talking about. Judaism isn't just a religion; it's a culture. Unless she's an orphan, raised in a vacuum, and has never met other members of her family there's virtually no way for her not to know SOMETHING about the religion. I was raised in an extremely secular Jewish household, and I still didn't escape not knowing certain details. Even more so, if she knows she's ethnically Jewish then she knows how to be ethnically Jewish which is *still* something. It's not just a matter of coming from a Jewish family; your mother has to be Jewish in order to count. Again, I still stand by my remarks.
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
Nah and it probably won't even get investigated. You'll be lucky getting anything out of the army unless there's a media furore or a governmental tribunal. I don't think they give a shit about being sued for damages.
Main news items are about Iran's new long range missile tests, Palestinian groups trying to arrest senior government officials in countries which exercise Universal Jurisdiction, settlers fighting with cops stopping them from building new houses, prospects of peace with Syria and Hamas threatening to attack Israel with Hezbollah if Iran nuclear facilities are attacked by Israel i.e. just another day in the Middle East (just randomly re-arrange the names of the players in the stories and you'll have next weeks news, and next years...).
This kind of stuff goes on every day at border crossings - my feeling is that this one only got reported as the girl has a blog.
29 mpg. YMMV.
In what parallel universe does a "reasonable procedure" involve putting three bullets through a laptop?
They're basically living in a war zone, all the time.
It does take 2 to tango though...
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
She had the following on herself -hand drawn map of downtown Jerusalem -Arabic stickers on laptop -"Fuck Star of David" pic on phone
-passport stamps from Arab countries -various Arab publications -photos condemning Israeli military action in Gaza
The border guards were definitely right to question her rigorously, and I wouldn't even mind if they denied her entry into Israel (although I would consider that to be an overreaction). But none of the above called for the destruction of her laptop. Even the Israeli authorities agree, as they are reimbursing her for her loss.
Look at the things you mention:
Incriminating, how?
Go ahead and ask her about them, but does that make the lappy a threat?
I can envision taking such a photo, to document hateful graffiti
She was crossing at Taba--how the hell could she have even gotten there without a passport stamp from an Arab country (Egypt)?
Worthy of questioning
just like hundreds of thousands of Israelis would
Like I said, question her. Deny her entry if you have to. But there was no reason to destroy her laptop.
And before you hurl any accusations my way, I am Jewish and used to live in Israel. I have gone through the Taba crossing many times, and am familiar with the security procedures there. The Israeli guards at all crossings are generally very professional; but in this case, I would argue that they made an error. I'm glad that they are reimbursing this whack-job Lily Sussman for destroying her laptop.
She sounds like a real piece of work, but that doesn't mean she deserves to have her computer shot up.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
"At which time you slaughtered millions in silly arguments about how to divide the resources of your little world."
That's what is going on in the middle east...a silly war over how to divide the resources.
For how long?
Feels more like they were little babies because they didnt agree with her on some subjects so they hurt the only thing they could. School playground antics from grown ups, awesome.
More likely that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
Fact 1: If you show up at an Israeli border crossing with a bunch of Arab stuff, you are going to be subjected to extra questioning.
Fact 2: If you leave a bag unattended in Israel, it will be assumed to be a bomb (for obvious reasons), and will be destroyed.
I'm guessing that when the guard saw all her Arab stuff, they told her to leave her bag and go get questioned. Then another guard saw an unattended bag and called the bomb squad, who destroyed it.
It sounds from the article like Israel is reimbursing Sussman for her loss, and I feel that's appropriate. They shouldn't have shot up her laptop.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Next time they start shooting at each other, just sit back and let them shoot. When one side is beaten into oblivion, they surrender, unconditionally.
that's like letting a cancerous melanoma 'work itself out'. Israel can obliterate the Palestinians without so much as working up a sweat. They choose not too because the wrath that would come down from around the world and from the region just isn't worth it.
The results of blowing away the Palestinians would be a large scale regional catastrophe that would end with Israel using their nukes since they don't have the numbers to take on the whole middle east.
You don't attack the bear cub unless you're ready to deal with Mom.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Would it be possible to design a bomb that goes off when shot? That way, you-the-bomber get around the most popular technique for defusing rather easily...
(not that I encourage bombing stuff)
The bomb squad clears the area before destroying a suspicious package. That way, they can avoid casualties in case the package explodes.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Exactly! Know why they don't do that? Because they don't want it to detonate when everybody is expecting it to. Damn...
http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
Holding oneself to some standard usually invokes such words as Top, Best, or Gold. Trying to say "At least they were better than X (for values of X like Iran, N. Korea, Nazis, Stalin, Spanish Inquisition,...) is a cop-out.
As for 'not poking the bear', you do realize that in some areas just breathing qualifies? For a US-centric example, consider 'Driving While Black/Latino'. Being a woman in Saudi Arabia (or Iran) certainly qualifies.
Or you could just go stand in the middle of an empty field and shout "BANG" really loud.. would be just as effective.. ;)
Why is the (directly-caused) civilian death toll relevent? Starting with our mutual and (I believe) pretty universal idea that killing innocent civilians is bad and should be discouraged, let's examine the other surrounding circumstances. Palestian terrorists deliberately target civilians, and then hide among the civilian Palestian population. Israel could either ignore the terrorists or accept some unintended civilian to intended terrorist death ratio, with the more extreme ratios leading to fewer terrorists and more saftey. This line-drawing problem of accidentally hurting the innocent vs. punishing/stopping the guilty is found throughout western society when it comes to incarcerating people. It just so happens that it's impossible to build the same level of safeguards into a military action.
So you condemn Israel from being more efficent in the use of force? That makes no sense- you're making a moral argument which concerns itself only with intentions, not consequences.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
It is a story about Israeli guards acting against what they perceived may be a Palestinian threat. How could that post be any more on topic? Do you know anything about the middle east at all? If you really think this entire story "is about a laptop", you are the biggest twit in the universe.
"But this one goes to 11!"
Well, when civilized (that is, evolved) people see the way the sionists behave like primitive savages (bombing children with white phosphorus), it is not surprising that they get upset at a bunch of assholes who have their head inflated by their mindboggingly stupid primitive religion.
Naw, it's not that. It's a direct result of the fact that one of the few things that the far-right and far-left have in common is that they both hate Jews. Ergo, any time you have an article about Israel, it brings out the idiots from both sides of the political spectrum. Add to that the fact that the more moderately political people generally don't understand the security needs of a nation which is constantly under attack, and you're bound to end up with a hate-fest, every time.
How to make a Windows laptop secure:
..
1) Bang!
2) Bang!
3) Bang!
4)
5) Profit!
Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
I defy her, you or anyone to start mouthing off at an Egyptian or Iranian airport and see where you end up. It won't be in a queue filling out paperwork.
Indeed. In fact it seems like an almost a weekly event now where an african (often darfur) refugee trying to sneak across the border from egypt into israel is shot dead by egyptian border guards.. they don't even bother to ask questions after shooting and it probably never makes the news.. just one more dead african.
Of course if it was an arab killed by israeli border guards it would be front page news around the world.
I'm an ethnic Jew and refer to deity in the plural. Your point is?
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
It is a story about Israeli guards acting against what they perceived may be a Palestinian threat. How could that post be any more on topic?
Huh?
First of all, it's not automatically a Palestinian threat. If she had been a terrorist, she could have be working for any number of terrorist organizations which regularly attack Israel. Hezbollah is one example.
Second of all, your excuse is idiotic even if we presume she's Palestinian. How in the world is the plight of the Palestinian people related to an Israeli response to a perceived threat? That's like me refusing to buy a Chinese car because of their poor safety record, and you going off on a tangent about the poor state of the Chinese economy. I don't give a fuck WHY the car is shit, I just care that it IS shit. I base my actions on an assessment of the situation - the reason behind that situation is completely unrelated to my actions.
It's quite clear that both he and you are simply looking for any opportunity to slam the Jews. THAT is why his comment is off-topic; it's an attempt to inject his personal political views into a discussion that has nothing to do with them.
They could have just wrestled the laptop to the ground and beat it up a bit.
Yeah, it happens all the time around the world daily so nothing new and just go on with your lives.
People have no idea how many calls the LAPD Bomb Squad go on a year, at least 2-3 a day
Same in France, mostly because of Algerian terrorists (though I'm sure the ETA and Corsican separatists didn't help.) Military started patrolling public places -- the metro and government buildings, sure, but schools, too. Parking lots near sensitive buildings were blocked off -- I saw some parking spots individually disabled by large boulders. Trashcans were welded shut. In airports (and elsewhere, too, I would assume,) the bomb squad will approach a suspicious bag with a big dome, which they screw down around it, before exploding the bag -- that avoids having to move it off to a pit somewhere, which could trigger a motion sensor.
Every once in a while throughout History, people get pissed-off enough at the jews so they try to exterminate them. The common point in there is the jews who get their head inflated by their mindboggingly stupid religion and act like total assholes, pissing-off everyone else in the process.
How the fuck are you not at -1 troll for this utter line of bullshit?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
yeah, heinous typo. It should have just been "who's" anyway.
Too bad she didn't have a shirt with a blinking light and circuitry on it.
Now *then* we would have seen hilarity ensue! :-)
"Shooting the suspicious electronic device on your shirt was a special courtesy we extend to our most enthusiastic visitors. Sorry your heart was right behind it. Have a nice day, and we look forward to your custom in future lifetimes."
I don't disagree with you and I see where you're coming from, but my point is that if you come from that background, it's pretty damned unusual and even highly unlikely that you will know "absolutely nothing" about Judaism. At the very least, you will come from a culture that *does* know. Unless, once again, you're an orphan, have never met anyone else in your family, et cetera.
Do not disturb. Already disturbed. http://www.teaaddictedgeek.com
I'm sure they checked out her laptop, and an officer discovered that she belonged to a rival guild in WoW.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I didn't read TFA too closely, and I appreciate all of the political hilarity above, but isn't the real lesson here back up your data? The guy was wailing about how he almost lost years of work.
Yes and Israel is the 'hostile' group in question here...the Palestinians/Hamas/PLO etc are only defending themselves against being displaced by Israel's creation...
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Except for the fact that she left her bag where the security officers *told* her to put it.
What political statements?
Perhaps she wasn't quite as innocent in her comments as she made herself out to be in her two hour interview?
From her next blog entry: http://lilysussman.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/beyond-the-laptop/
First, I completely agree with Freitas’s comment. “These guys shoot every day at unarmed people, even children. Why so much surprise about a simple laptop?”
I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
The insane kill ratios disagree with you. Also, the targeting of apartments, power plants, hospitals and so on... The security measures though? I totally agree with, they were in full rights to shoot her stuff. Risk you take by taking a laptop to that kind of country.
all her notes, all her photos, years of work, gone . . . Things get lost, things get stolen, things get broken. Accidents happen. Even hunting-type accidents. :-)
How much sympathy would /.ers have if this post was "My laptop broke and I lost all my stuff"?
You must have visited Israel a long time ago, as I can't really remember when was the last time Ben Gurion Airport was bombed. Probably way before my time...
I'm curious as to what the act of "absurding" entails, could you tell me?
Israel was created by a UN mandate. Had her neighbors peacefully accepted this mandate nobody would have been forced out of their homes. The original borders were largely drawn along the lines of where the Jews and Palestinians were already settled. Instead of accepting this mandate however her neighbors attempted to settle the matter with military force. Not once mind you, not twice, but three different times.
You can't really place all of the blame for the current situation on Israel, much as though you may want to. There's plenty of blame to go around on all sides.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
No, I don't take sides as I think both sides are in the wrong, and to continue the killing is ridiculous. But for you to ignore the implications of the Israel/Arab conflict by saying "this is about a laptop" means you are either choosing to be disingenuous yourself, or you are woefully ignorant of the situation over there. I wasn't assuming she was Palestinian, but I would bet the farm the Israeli guards did - or at least that she was anti-Israel which was basically what I meant. And sorry, but this is not off topic. If she wouldn't have had anti-jewish stickers on her laptop, I am guessing this would not have happened, so it is very on topic. So clearly you are not clear about what I meant, so please do not try to speak for me, or explain to me what I meant.
"But this one goes to 11!"
Macs are not bulletproof.
Your attitude would directly increase the chances of more people being blown up in bus bombings.
And the attitude that any person who dislikes Israel should be treated like a criminal and denied basic rights does far more damage than any misguided kid's political views.
There isn't much difference between Israelis complaining about Palestinian violence and early pioneers complaining about Native American violence. If you take someone's land and property with force, they will probably do whatever they can to retaliate. If you don't want them to use terrorist tactics, have the US give the same amount of weapons to Palestine as it does to Israel. I'm sure the two state solution would suddenly be vastly more appealing to the hardliners who still want to steal Palestinian land under the guise of security.
Sounds like just the thing for vampires. I've always wondered what the "holy hand grenade" would do to the walking dead, seems to have the correct ( blessed) components and should do the appropriate amount of violence ( blow up with shrapnel).
First - My work place was on the 3rd floor overlooking a main post office. I remember a case where someone left his groceries when he picked up his mail from his mailbox. About 20m later, we saw the guy sprinting back a few blocks down the street. However, the bomb disposal people were at ground level... and their robot shot his bag before he could get close enough for them to see him. Veggies everywhere. So no, this isn't picking up on someone in particular. Leave a bag unattended in a sensitive public place, and this may happen to you - regardless of who and what you are.
Second - I am sure this girl had a most unpleasant time. She is overlooking the fact that she wasn't a suspect as such. If you were a terrorist trying to smuggle a bomb into a high security area, a good way would be to plant it on some young, sympathetic, naive, idealistic western girl who is "obviously" not a terrorist - a profile this girl fit to a T. To rule this out you need to ask a lot of invasive, personal, seemingly irrelevant questions. If this sounds far fetched to you, read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezar_Hindawi who planted a bomb in his pregnant Irish fiance's bag. I am certain she went through a most unpleasant time as well. I am also certain she appreciated keeping her and her baby's lives. I am also certain all the other passengers on her flight appreciated continuing living, too. And the crew. And all their families. And friends.
The bottom line is that security in Israel is different from the USA. Instead of inflicting ineffective, mindless, low-level nuisance on everyone, it focuses on people who may (knowingly or unknowingly) pose a risk and gives them a thoroughly unpleasant, but effective, screening. This method works. And for most people, Israeli security is a much more pleasant experience than going through USA security. Of course, for the few who end up getting the 3rd degree, it is much worse.
No, the Israeli worry was that she was a terrorist DUPE, and was acting like one: she fit that profile to a T.
EG, this woman is acting very similar to the case in 1996 where a Jordanian tricked his pregnant Irish girlfriend into trying to carry a bomb onto an El Al flight.
Anne-Mary Murphy
Test your net with Netalyzr
Given the political statements on her laptop...
From the pictures, the "Arabic stickers" are stickers with Arabic letters stuck on the keyboard, to facilitate typing in Arabic. I'd consider that an odd political statement.
Virg
Wow, what an amazingly piece of ignorance, asking people "make sure they don't act obnoxiously so people get pissed-off at them and try to exterminate them yet another time"
I would think then we should eliminate all those that text while walking.
run this test ( which I have done )
find the most trafficked street in a town near where you live, go to the middle of the block, walk up to the curb line, take a half step back, then over the course of 10 minutes see how many times you get bumped. ( again you are just 1.5 feet from the curb almost in line with where a parking meter might be.
my NYC record for this is 43 times ( the 43rd time I whipped out my mace because the guy that nailed me dropped his phone and started to get rather rude and threatening, it ended real fast ). by the way New Yorkers seem to be the most polite about hitting you, almost everyone said sorry or excuse me or something polite as an apology.
In miami, they just hit you and keep going ( 17 times ).
weird but a fun way to see what humanity is all about.
onepoint
if you see me, smile and say hello.
I don't believe Palestine in any incarnation was party to the UN mandate. Did they have any voice at all in the UN?
It was *decided* that portions would be carved up and given to the Jewish people who had settled there. But the disaffected parties weren't given any say in the matter; just 'accept this'.
Little wonder they didn't care for it much...
I completely agree blame is well spread in this case. That was my original point, it takes 2 parties. Or as others commented, just one to start the problem, which was the UN/Israel who started it.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
The patriot act is an american law.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
If the U.N. simply declares that New Jersey now belongs to Scientologists, does that mean they can forcefully take people's million-dollar family homes, make them leave, and shoot anybody they feel like it? Last I checked, land belongs to whoever's been there for the last couple hundred years. (No, going back 1000 years is too far. If you hold onto something for 1000 years, fine, it's yours.)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
The British.
Luckily that story has an okayish ending - I maintain that it was stupid for him to be charged in the first place, but at least the prosecutors had more sense than the cops.
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
I know many Jewish Israeli people who had their bag shot just because they left it unwatched for a couple of minutes. Yes, this is the unfortunate reality that Israelis live in,
Israel is a wealthy democracy. Unlike other actors in the Middle East, Israelis have both the political and economic power to change the "unfortunate reality" that they live in.
Fine, I'll place the blame on the UN, which didn't learn Neville Chamberlain's 1938 lesson about why you don't give away what's not yours to militaristic people who tell you that they want it in exchange for them not taking it from the people who it does belong to by force.
FGD 135
You mean the bombed UN school that was where the palestinians were firing rockets from? Maybe if the UN wants to sponsor a school they should secure it from those who would use it for evil.
But for you to ignore the implications of the Israel/Arab conflict by saying "this is about a laptop" means you are either choosing to be disingenuous yourself, or you are woefully ignorant of the situation over there.
Until you explain how the living conditions of Palestinians have anything to do with the shooting of an Americans laptop, I'm going to assume you're just talking out of your ass.
wasn't assuming she was Palestinian, but I would bet the farm the Israeli guards did
Yep, the Israeli guards checking her American passport assumed that she was Palestinian. Makes perfect sense!
or at least that she was anti-Israel which was basically what I meant.
Ah, so it's a case of "listen to what I mean, not what I say!". Sorry, but I'm not puh-sykik.
And sorry, but this is not off topic.
Sorry, but it is.
If she wouldn't have had anti-jewish stickers on her laptop
She didn't.
I am guessing this would not have happened, so it is very on topic.
You still haven't explained how. Now you've gone from arguing that Palestinian suffering is related to the shooting of a laptop, to arguing that it happened because of anti-Israeli stickers. You haven't just moved the goalposts so much as teleported them to another galaxy.
So clearly you are not clear about what I meant, so please do not try to speak for me, or explain to me what I meant.
Ok, I'm not clear on what you meant - in that case, what you meant is clearly not what the original commenter was talking about, so his comment is still way off-topic.
Interesting thing those death counts. If you look at the gender ratios, you see the difference between terrorism and war. The Israeli death count is statistically random between gender and age. The palestinian death count is very, very heavily biased towards palestinian males ages 13 and up. Historically, what's the age that barbaric societies consider 'adulthood' when it comes to things like combat? Right around 12-14. If the Israelis were truly just killing palestinians, than their kill count would look much more like the palestinians in composition.
Sounds like they should have fought back. But Native Americans are humble, and Arabs are prideful. Sounds like pride is better to one's survival to me.
And if we then went and invaded Mexico and Canada in 1967, and took 30% more land -- it wouldn't magically be right that we get to keep it just becuase we felt like it. But that's pretty much what we did to Hawaii.
Two wrongs don't make a right, dude.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
In a universe where terrorists smuggle bombs in ambulances and baby carts.
Unfortunately, that world happens to be our own.
They owned the vast, vast majority of the land in the original mandate. It wasn't until their neighbors decided on some good old fashioned ethnic cleansing that they expanded their borders after they kicked the shit out of their opponents.
So there was a massive void in the middle east, where there was no land, no sea, and no sky. Then the UN came along, filled the void with land, mountains, water, covered it with sky, and the Jewish folks moved in. That's how it happened? I'd always assumed there was land there before Israel moved in. Those 'neighbours' used to own what is now Israel. Don't make it sound like no one lost anything.
They would have to deal with Syria and Egypt at most currently, since we're interdicting Iran airstrikes vis a vis our occupation of Iraq. And those two they COULD kick the shit out of.
If you honestly can't see how this incident involves the factors I was speaking about, not only am I not going to try to explain it to you, but I am done talking to you. Bye.
"But this one goes to 11!"
sounds like a GREAT Mozy commercial.
So you're comparing Israel to Egypt or Iran, like that's a good thing? So as long as someone's acting worse than you, that's cool, as you're not the worst? Jesus that's fucking pathetic logic.
a woman is pulled from the boarding line for 'routine' questioning and when the TSA people continue to ask pretty obviously dumb questions the woman starts getting upset with their wasting of her time. This give the TSA people more motivation to hold her longer and she misses the flight. But, her bags are still on the plane. When the plane lands, the pilot is directed to taxi to a remote area of the airport where her bags are pulled off the plane because she never boarded and bags without a passenger are a no-no. Remember, they didn't catch this before the plane took off, they did this after the plane landed at its destination. They then blew up her luggage to make sure it was harmless. Remember, this is after the plane landed and hours after the TSA questioning incident.
Sometimes, people with more power than intelligence do dumb things.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
The British.
Nope, the British were adamant that Jewish mass emigration to Palestine shouldn't happen because it would end in violence between Palestinians and Jews. As a result, Jewish terrorists frequently attached the British authorities in Palestine. When an exhausted Britain pulled out of Palestine, having been bankrupted by World War II, the Jewish terrorists became militias that massacred and expelled Palestinians. These groups then went on to declare the existence of the state of Israel.
Saddest of all, is that the state of Israel enshrines the extermination of Jews in World War II as its right to exist. This is despite the fact that it was founded on racially motivated genocide against Palestinians, is increasingly dominated by reactionary religious groups, and was founded by groups who were largely hostile to the European Jews who had suffered in World War II (they were held to have brought it on themselves by not emigrating to Palestine earlier).
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
So that justifies massacres and expulsions? This is the same pro-Israel disinformation that claims Palestinians are just Jordanians/Syrians/Lebanese (choose as per your particular prejudice), and therefore not worth a damn. This is despite them having a longstanding cultural identity that is different to their neighbours.
If they were bombing the palis with willy pete you'd know it for sure. There would be hundreds to thousands of people burned to death and thousands to tens of thousands of people with horrific burn tracks all over their skin. WP smoke and illumination shells are constructed very, very differently than WP bombs.
In the words of Wikipedia, citation please.
Is it before or after Article 4, which states:
Or Article 18?
Here's an idea, it's novel, I know. How about you go to the Palestinian Constitution, which I helpfully linked above, and show us this "not a joke" claim you're making, "it's true, really it is" about the goal of "death to Jews and all non-Muslims".
Because beyond that, you ARE a troll.
I'm with ya on that, seems like everyone is a hypocrite these days. Like Cheney's daughter trying to justify torture as somehow not an abandonment of everything the United States stands for. Violating your principles is the surest sign of weakness in my mind.
Much has gone wrong in the middle east and a lot of countries are to blame, and not just middle eastern countries. Russia, France, the UK, The US in particular meddled a lot in the region and in many ways contributed to the destabilization. Until all the foreign countries to the region come to a consensus there will be little movement as economic interests from one country impact the security of another. We're all friends these days, we should start acting like it.
Heh. Very mature. Instead of being an adult and admitting that you're wrong, or at least trying to make an honest argument to support your assertion, you stick your nose in the air and storm off in a huff. Why did you even bother responding if you didn't have a point to make?
I'm sure it makes sense, that wasn't my point. My original point was disbelief that they were complaining about something relatively very minor as bags being shot, and portraying this as being part of their long-suffering victim status. In the grand scheme of things, it might be an inconvenience, but it's not something to add to the "look how we suffer" list considering what's going on on THEIR side.
When I was a little kid I spent my summers (1980's) in Israel. I remember seeing, in between cartoons, commercials where kids in a playground see a plastic bag laying around. The commercial basically said - stop what you are doing, evacuate the scene, call the cops. There is a reason for this - terrorists would drop timed bombs in playgrounds..where there are 8 year olds running around. I think any rational person can agree that an 8 year old playing in a playground shouldn't be the target of terrorists? A bag may be nothing, but it could have a bomb...it could have a grenade - it doesn't take much to cause a lot of damage.
It is definitely a "look how we suffer"...imagine everytime you walked down the street and saw a bag left alone you walked the other way and called the cops in fear it might be a bomb? Hell go to most urban places in the US, which have plenty of trash, and going by that detail we would have bomb alerts every 5 minutes. At least here in the US we don't worry about that - in Israel they do...all the time.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
http://genealogy.familyeducation.com/surname-origin/sussman
While I have nothing to prove one way or the other, it’s entirely probable that she is Jewish. The country’s Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship. Anonymous Coward’s point was that, as a Jew, with a right even to claim Israeli citizenship if she so desired, she has every right to protest Israel’s actions. It’s no different from you or I, as Americans, having every right to protest America’s actions.
I think she is mislead and terribly uninformed, but she has a right to her opinion.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution
You don't need to "tolerate the country", you need to make peace with its people. But that's not going to happen as long as the entire population is effectively punished for the acts of some terrorists.
And many more Muslim countries have the death penalty for atheism, so as a Jew and a person "of the book", you're actually somewhat better off. Yet, I don't go around calling for the occupation of Muslim lands until they change their laws.
The only way Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are going to change is to persuade their followers to join the 21st century and accept reason, not superstition, as the basis for ethics and human affairs. Force, pressure, or coercion is ineffective against religious nuts, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jewish--it just radicalizes you.
Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.
Yes, and Israel shares a significant degree of responsibility for the exodus of moderates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
Not sure what you're getting at here, interested to know, but there's an example of a plane that originated in London Heathrow bound for the USA which got blown up in flight. Do please explain your point, interested to know...
There had never been an attack on Ben Gurion Airport in Israel, ever! It's one of the safest air ports in the world. It's sounds like you're inventing those stuff up. sorry. Also, Israel is one of the nicest place to visit on earth, including "the dead sea" which is 90% salt, so you can float on the water, it's awesome. Tel-aviv is great place for parties, and the north of Israel is just beautiful. Please don't lie about stuff like that, people might believe you. written by an Israeli citizen.
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!!!
I had a point to make, it was just wasted on you. I know when my breath is being wasted, so I won't even bother. No point in talking to the ostrich with it's head in the ground. If that is what you need to placate your ego, then fine - think that you are right and I am wrong. Sorry, but I am secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't need the childish reassurance. Have a nice life.
"But this one goes to 11!"
As I understand, there have always been Jews living in what is today defined as the state of Israel. Granted, their numbers have grown significantly since 1948, but they've always been there.
Yes, mod parent up!
You really, REALLY need a girlfriend.
No backups. Years of work only on her laptop. What a dumbass.
You're an idiot. Israelis have pretty damn good reason to be really, really fucking serious about their border security. Guess what happens when a 21-year-old college student with an attitude problem and slightly questionable possessions tries to enter? Watch the vid of her interview about the incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihXtbB-4GWw The part that jumped out at me was when she mentioned that she was "kind of smirking" while unable to answer some of the questions. Because that's what security people like: smartasses. Hell, this girl should feel lucky that her macbook was the only thing damaged.
Awesome! So if I were a terrorist, all I would have to do is leave a bag with impact detonated explosives laying around, and security will set it off for me? Sweet!
Correct. Granted, it will be done in a place and a way that nobody gets injured and no infrastructure gets damaged, but sure, they will explode it for you.
put bombs cowardly hidden in laptops
Instead of bravely bombing from on high. I don't support one side or the other in the Israel-Palestine conflict, but we must accept that war is no longer men on horses charging at each other with lances. It's hardly cowardly to use what resources (and resourcefulness) you have. Israel has aircraft, Palestine has improvised explosives. Neither's choice of weapon (and 'choice' is partly forced by necessity and resources, or lack thereof) is noble or cowardly per se, and the same applies to tactics.
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
[quote]I'm not saying shooting the laptop was necessarily justified or the right thing to do. I don't know enough of the details of the situation to say that. But I will say that there are some security measures that Israel absolutely *has* to take, that would be viewed as unacceptably harsh in places with relatively low levels of terrorist violence.[/quote]
Or you could just stop fucking with your neighbors (I live in the US and feel the same way about what we're doing).
The amusing part to me here is that they SHOT IT. While I am far from an explosives expert I am fairly certain that many types of explosives will not be set off if a bullet hits them. That is assuming the bullet didn't just pass by where the explosive was. I have always been under the impression that if you were worried that there might be an explosive in an object, you would use other explosives to detonate/destroy the item.
It is one thing to get harassed by security, but using guns? And this is not an isolated incident of idiocy by israeli security.
Israel didn't exist 60 years ago and the Palestinians were forced out of their lands and homes when it was created.
Actually, the creation of Israel didn't force out the Palestinians. It was a side-effect of the Israeli Civil War and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
Also, this is hardly the fault of the Israelis as a whole - it's like blaming modern Americans for kicking Native American tribes off their lands (or just about any modern country's similar historical treatment of their indigenous populations). The big difference in this case is that some of the original actors are still alive, and thus have a much more valid claim for reclamation of property than those who simply had some ancestor involved.
The there are two major problems with any attempts to return the "stolen" lands/homes to the previous Arab owners:
Some form of eminent domain action would be the only method even approaching fairness to those involved, but it's doubtful either side would agree to such a solution at this point.
No, 'those neighbours,' didn't own that land. It was part of the Ottoman Empire, then a British Territory, then the checkerboard of made up countries that exist there now (i.e. every one of them is an artifact of British colonial policy, and no more a 'real' country than Israel is).
Sorry, but I am secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't need the childish reassurance. Have a nice life.
No worries, I know better than to argue against deeply held religious beliefs. Take care.
It's not like they do it on a table in a security booth. They have bomb pits for this purpose.
I'd hit you and not apologize, on purpose. Why? Get the fuck out of the way. You picked the most trafficked street in the area and choose to stand in the way. Why should I apologize for ramming into you if you're not going to apologize for standing in traffic?
Trouble is, most Jews I run into that speak out (apparently, like yourself) can't separate hatred of Jews from disagreement with retarded Israeli behaviors. I can think Israel is full of shit without hating the country or the people it. But, apparently, a ton of Jews can't figure that out and attempt to discredit people that disagree with them as anti-Semites. Frankly, pathetic.
PS: sometimes, as with the US, there is a reason why people can't stand your country.
The only religious figure for me is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I think organized religion is one of the most counter-productive forces on the planet. But whatever, you certainly have my number and the rest of life already figured out. Have fun with it.
"But this one goes to 11!"
welcome to the world, it's a scary place.
she is almost as smart as the group that went backpacking in the iranian mountains or the journalists that decided to go across the border of n. korea to show the world how terrible they were. words like "right", "fair", and "legal" don't mean squat in most places. she is lucky that's all that happened to you.
not to mention having a sticker that reads "f*ck <star of david>" shows a pretty astounding insensitivity to the local culture.
I'm more interested in how much of that reimbursement for her laptop is coming out of the pockets of the American tax payer. Fight your own wars Isreal, most of us could care less between the bloodthirsty Jews and Palestinians. Both are utterly disgusting, but only one is costing us an arm and a leg every year to prop up.
Of course if it was an arab killed by israeli border guards it would be front page news around the world.
If the Arab had been in custody and being questioned for two hours, then security just decided to walk him outside and shoot him three times, yes. I imagine it probably would get some attention. Such things have done so in the past, even in active war zones.
I should have asked "in what parallel universe is putting three bullets in a potential bomb container" part of a "reasonable procedure?"
You know, all ethnic Jews finish off their blog posts by saying "Insha’allah I will like Israel better tomorrow."
Yeah, learning the language of a country you're going to, and making use of it, is rather suspicious...
No, but it explains why they weren't given a vote in the UN at that time.
Nothing in the comment you were replying to tries to justify massacres and expulsions. That's just you being hysterical and off-topic.
Btw, the claim that Palestinians are Jordanians/Syrians (never heard the Lebanese idea) was originally made by the Arabs. If the Arab coalition won the 1948 war, there would be no Palestine - it was meant to be a part of Jordan (and before that, Syria).
Since when do we have a precedent "that lands seized in a war are given to the inhabitants of the country that ends up with those lands?" Did international law change on this aspect prior to 1948 and then change back right after?
I'm half a century old (plus a couple years) and this shit's been going on for longer than I've been alive. Fight it out, get it over with. This silly assed squabble has gotten BORING!! There's never anything new, never any good news, never any peace. Just alternating open warfare, and covert warfare, interspersed with a terrorist attack. Fucking inbred idiots - on BOTH sides!
I hope this is to be taken in jest. While the fighting may have been going on for the larger part of your life doesn't mean people are still dying every day. It's a shitty situation over there but you have to at least realize they are at war, constantly attacking and maiming each other every day. Even if you open up an all-out warfare what good would that do? An entire country napalmed and civilian death tolls in the thousands? You should be thankful that you're not over there having to contribute at ALL to this whole can-o-worms - instead all you have to do is turn off the tv or go to another website if you don't want to read about it. But yes, it's boring - when is another war going to start?
You will have that when you occupy someone else's land, use collective punishment and basically have an apartheid state. The Palestinians are not blameless, but the Israelis are fools if they think their own actions do not lead to more terrorism rather than less.
Again - our universe. It's a common practice.
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.'
So, what do you have to gain from pretending the charter of Hamas, the party that rules "Palestine" with an iron fist, isn't the defacto constitution of the country?
It must suck for you to win on the letter and TOTALLY GET DESTROYED on the spirit.
Why are so many posts with factual errors modded up?
How can you tolerate a country that has "we will kill all jews world-wide" in it's constitution (note they do clarify that if they ever get the Jews they will come after everyone else - you just can't make this up. Unfortunately, it's not a joke)
The same way they would be expected to tolerate a country that says outlandish things such as 'worship whom you wish'. They're a country, dude. A duly elected democratic body that just so happens to disagree with our world view. But they still have just as much right to be sovereign as any other nation that exists by means of the law.
And btw, yes Hamas stole the election. Unfortunately, they would have won even if they hadn't stolen it according to polls. This existence is what Gazan muslims want, over 60% of them. Of course, the fact that anyone who has anything better to do in his life than killing Jews has long since left is the main cause of that.
You don't like them. Got it. Wrote it down. Won't forget. Meanwhile, they are a poor nation that is getting continuously attacked by an aggressive, technologically superior neighbor. This seems like the sort of fight the United States would be in on...
I wonder what would happen if we tried, oh I don't know, peace?
But I love to fuck my neighbors
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Yes, I agree on this, but this is a lenghty discussion that should be included in Godwin's Law as a showstopper. Cause now I have to remind you that Israel didn't respect the mandate either by expanding the original borders and has violated a host of them all by itself....
NO SIG
What percentage are false alarms? Feel free to use scientific notation if you need to.
Of course, we lived with a couple of decades of terrorist attacks ourselves long before Terrorism was the new bogeyman.
It is ironic that the UK government dislike terrorism yet the Minister of Foreign Affairs (David Miliband) openly supports terrorism.
I don't believe Palestine in any incarnation was party to the UN mandate. Did they have any voice at all in the UN?
"Palestine" was part of the Ottoman empire. Not a discrete legal entity.
So that justifies massacres and expulsions?
No, but it does justify Palestine not being a party to the UN mandate, which was the question asked.
the evidence suggests they were using it the way everyone else does, as flares at night to light up targets so the wrong building/person isn't shot
Oh really? Take a look at this image http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/fosforgroot.jpg . It's just one of many examples of white phosphorus being used in densely populated urban areas. The Israelis were using them in an air-burst mode, maximizing the risk to civilians, rather than the safer ground burst. If the goal was smoke cover, then there were far less dangerous alternatives available.
As is the question of whether an errant bomb/missile hit a school in a war zone (mistakes happen and collateral damage is tragic, but it's not like it's done on purpose).
The IDF has a long track record of doing very nasty things quite on purpose. The whole strategy of dealing with the Palestinians is one of collective punishment. A few years back some Palestinian protesters were killed by a tank shell and the Israeli spokeswoman told the media that they were only firing tank shells near to the crowd to warn them (she managed to keep a straight face too). When a country starts firing tank shells for crowd control, you have to seriously question whether they care about civilian lives at all. If you listen to the testimonies of ex-Israeli soldiers (e.g. Breaking the Silence) you will hear many counts of how innocent civilians are targeted. Palestinian lives are viewed as worthless.
60 years?, the problem is more like 4,000 years old.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
The same British who outlawed Jewish people buying land from Palestinians (the peaceful solution)? Who cared so much about lives that they turned ships of Jews back to Nazi Germany? Who try to get native populations to get along; such as when they ruled over the Indian subcontinent by butchering pigs in the Islamic areas and cows in the Hindu ones, setting themselves up as the only force that could keep the peace between the two groups from killing each other. Who systematically and dilberately created the Israeli-Arab and Indian-Pakistani divide for their own benefit?
They targeted military positions, and even would call in warnings before bad things happened.
A misleading statement. Post-WWII, Britain pulled out of the whole middle east, such as Iraq and Saudi Arabi, in addition to Israel. You imply a causal link between the Israeli resistence and the British withdrawal.
Citation please? The Jewish resistence groups did become militia, but they hardly massacred or expelled Palestinians. In suspect cases (when Palestinian men dressed up and hid among women, for instance), the Red Cross was invited in to observe and record what happened.
This is a crock. Palestinians who didn't fight against the creation of the state of Israel are full citizens with voting rights, representation in the Kennesset, etc. Furthermore, in a more macabe disproof, given the efficacy of the Israeli fighting forces in the War of Independence and the 6-days war, if the goal had been elimination, it would have already occured.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Even if everything you've just said is true and 100% accurate, which I'm not necessarily conceding, it doesn't matter. The Palestinians have a history of attacking Israeli civilians. They cannot now complain if Israel does the same thing. They opened the door, the IDF just walked through it.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Um... no. When one wants the other to not exist, neither acceptance, deliberation, nor ignorance are viable options.
My contempt for the behavior and beliefs of the two major political parties cannot be adequately expressed in 120 chara
My argument is that comparing the actions of one supposedly progressive country to a corrupt theocracy is pointless, and that one would hope that Israel would not be so reactionary. And FYI, the text of my reply was not copied, I have not read the post you are referring to.
Of course she is. You know, all ethnic Jews finish off their blog posts by saying "Insha’allah I will like Israel better tomorrow."
If she converted to Islam, why not? It doesn't change what her family is or what she was born as.
open source modern art: laser taggi
Um...yes.
From your post:
"When ONE wants the OTHER..."
That's 2 parties.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Hmm... yes. The generally accepted implication of the "tango" comment though is that both parties in a conflict are to blame. Were the Israelis to not participate (thus absolving themselves of this supposed blame), they would cease to exist based on the actions of the terrorists. Perhaps a better retort on my part would have been "When given the choice to dance or die, what can we do but let feet fly?"
My contempt for the behavior and beliefs of the two major political parties cannot be adequately expressed in 120 chara
Hmmm, he suggested that people be stopped from teaching children that they need to go to war to defend a 'holy land', and you suggest genocide. What would we do without you anonymous cowards to bring us reason.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. I guess it didn't legally apply until 1949 so while territory occupied prior to that may not be relevant to the debate, the territory occupied from the 1967 war is very much relevant.
This is such bullshit. The Jewish movement Irgun was responsible for many attacks on the British and Palestinians, but the mainstream Israeli army was the Haganah, not the Irgun. The Irgun was forcibly shut down by the Israeli government once the State of Israel was declared. Notably, the head of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, was the one who ended up making peace with Egypt under Anwar Sadat.
the generally accept meaning is that to perform a 2 person dance, you need 2 people.
If Israel doesn't exist there is no current conflict. Certainly the conflicts of the region go back 1000s of year, but this current conflict is due to the creation of Israel at the expense of the Palestinian people.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Citation? It might be common practice to shoot the control chip of the bomb, but not three random shots at an item which may or may not be a bomb.
A few years ago, a friend of my wife left a cake in a tin on a train at Victoria Station in London (she was a bit ditzy). When she remembered and went back for it she got an ear-full from some police or security folks (I can't remember which) who were considering evacuating the station and blowing it up (the cake, not Victoria station though I would happily let them do the bus staion round the corner).
When "Israeli security officers (most who looked around 18 years old)" ask you "Do you have a boyfriend?", you say "Why No, do you know any good clubs, maybe we could have a couple drinks and dance."
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
And posting anonymously reveals the strength of your convictions pretty clearly, I think.
Meanwhile, the UN, EU, HRW and Amnesty have so little credbility left after cherry picking which human rights abusers they go after. The UN tends to put the world's worst offenders in charge of the project. You'll excuse me if I don't take them very seriously at all, even if once upon a time they were worthwhile organisations.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Bzzzt. The modern Jewish state didn't exist before 1948.
Look up Judea or have a read through the New Testament and Koran - hardly Jew-biased source material.
Smug, aren't you!
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Regardong your sig, always remember, the early worm gets eaten........
I think most people in a conflict want to be the complete and total victor and would be thrilled if the other side simply stopped fighting and 'accept' the situation.
Right now Israel has a strong incentive to want the fighting to end, since they currently control the land. If there was a massive pushback and they no longer controlled the territory, I doubt they would want to simply 'stop and live in peace' either.
Neither side quite wants peace, both sides want to win. No one wants peace if it means loosing.
And let me guess... Some of your best friends are Jewish, right?
Go away, anonymous coward.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Yet another shill defending the murdering thieves that are Israel.
Fuck them, I wouild be happy to see them nuked.
All this is a small price to pay for building and occupying settlements on Palestinian land right?
Good luck and enjoy the land.
"I have four words for you! I [blam!] blam!] [blam!] Yeah!"
Similar to the upcoming US election results
Did you just claim that being wealthy gives you the power to stop people from hating you?
Obviously I wasn't there to witness, but I presume they did "place it in a blast container", and by "container" I mean "about a hundred feet of open space, and maybe a blast barrier".
Nor was Jordan or Syria. These entities grew out of secret agreements between the UK, France and Russia in 1916, and later went through various League of Nations redraftings.
Like most large geopolitical problems in the world, everything here is essentially due to the meddling of superpowers and botched decolonisations.
You can get a handle on most conflicts in the world by keeping one important fact in mind: There is no such thing as "the good guys". No person, no nation, no government, no interest group has pure motives.
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Yah. I'm technically an ethnic African, since we all descended from Mitochondrial Eve and her tribe ... but I'd still get my ass kicked if I walked into the projects shouting "WADDUP MUH NIGGA!".
I spent a couple of lovely weeks in Beirut City, helping to sort the mess - not to mention months of deployment aboard a guided missile destroyer prior to and after the evacuation of Beirut.
Worse, I have military aged sons. One is in uniform now, another will be in June. I have a stake in the situation.
I am thankful that my kids were allowed to grow up in peace, unlike the children born in the region. I'll be even more thankful if my kids aren't pulled into yet another fracas before they have THEIR kids.
Turning the television off doesn't make these real life problems go away.
Remember the USS Liberty. Remember the Cole. Remember the marines killed in Beirut. Remember 9/11 - which was a result of our support for Israel. So many casualties over the years - and so little return on our investment.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Article 49 refers to occupied territory - i.e., lands that are being held by a country, but not part of the country. The lands in question here are part of the Israeli state, not an occupied territory. Therefore Article 49 does not apply.
Except the Israeli demolition folks don't conveniently put them in cafes within blast radius of exactly six people before they detonate them.
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This is a serious problem. But it is also connected to the fact that very often anti-semitism and anti-Israel attitudes are deeply interrelated. One needs to only look at protests which are nominally against Israel and see how many signs say things about Jews.
Vishnu forbid you actually learn about a culture and people before visiting. It's not hard for an Australian to visit Israel and deal with everything, granted an Australian visiting Israel will listen to what he Israeli's are telling them to do, given the fact that it can be very dangerous. A basic knowledge of Judaism should tell you pork products are not readily available in Israel, would you go to Mumbai and ask for a steak? (Pro Tip: cows are sacred animals in Hindu culture).
Do you have any idea how many Yanks, European and Japanese people get hurt or killed in Australia because they don't know how dangerous our natural environment is. None of you ever bother to learn about shark warnings, swimming between the flags or even basic self preservation measures like making sure someone knows where you are going (Yes, people get lost very easily here, you can literally drive along sealed roads for 5 hours and not encounter a sigh of civilisation). Millions of tax dollars go to maintaining services that get foreigners out of trouble like this (so if you ever meet an SES volunteer, make sure you buy them a beer, they deserve it).
Bit of trivia for you, out of the 10 most dangerous creatures in the world how many live in Australia?
And you wonder why we consider people who dance on top of crocodile traps to be morons.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Nice assumption, I've actually been quite pro Israel, because I believe they're the best of a bad bunch in the region. I supported their attacks on Hezbollah, I supported their pounding of Gaza because frankly, I think if you provoke a tiger you should get what you ask for for. If the Palestinians really want progress the best way to do it would be to smuggle in equipment for building wells, fuel for electricity and so on, but instead spend most their effort smuggling in more rockets to fire at Israel, they themselves are partly to blame for the situation there- if they can spend a year or two proving they want peace then they're going to have a leg to stand on.
However, the continued building of illegal settlements absolutely sickens me, it alone is evidence enough that Israel is more interested in grabbing land than finding peace, as such I struggle to have any sympathy for Israel either nowadays in general, that doesn't however mean I think that somehow that if Israel is wrong, Hamas is right, it is possible that perhaps, they're both just wrong.
So kindly take your ignorant view and your stupid assumptions elsewhere. I'm British, I'm atheist, I'm neither Israeli or Jewish. Unlike you, I'm just capable of seeing errors in the way of both parties, that doesn't somehow make me an Israeli settler.
Why not? I certainly don't know enough about bomb disposal to make that claim. Do you?
Cowardly Palestinians, why can't they just mobilise their army and storm across the country killing women and children like real war criminals!
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
Obviously, they're trying to light up the targets hiding in the shadows
It's called common sense.
No, it's called making shit up.
Yes, shit like "it's common procedure to find out if a laptop contains a bomb by randomly popping three bullets into it."
No, because that wasn't "common sense".
That was from my personal experience as an Israeli.
So you can get around Article 49 simply by claiming occupied territory as part of your country? What is the tortured logic you have that makes that acceptable?
Um, legal procedure? Proper reading of the treaty? Any actual understanding of what the treaty was about? A basic grasp of the English language?
The Geneva Conventions were specifically about wars between countries. Internal state matters concerning a country's own citizens are generally not covered - there are separate treaties about that.
As for claiming occupied territory as part of your country, that has generally been considered acceptable by the governments of the world since the beginning of recorded history. However, doing so has both benefits and drawbacks, as annexing the land makes those who live there become citizens of your country.
Regardless, you really need to decide what you're arguing, here. You bring up a "law" (treaties are not actually laws), so I point out what the "law" is actually about and why it doesn't apply. You don't like what the "law" actually says, so you attack me for pointing out the problem with it.
Ok, so then how trivially can you decrypt this?
For a hint, that's really a copy-pasted, padded, wikipedia article after applying a 512 byte "not-so-one-time" pad. The JPG extension is because I'm too lazy to google for places that allow free uploading of non-image files.
Now for my real reply...
How did your personal experience as an Israeli teach you that making random bullet holes in a device will determine whether or not it's a bomb?
In my personal experience, making a bomb disposal robot shoot suspicious objects is common practice in Israel. 90% of the time, those are innocent bags, left unattended by mistake.
I'm not going to guess why or how it's supposed to work, because unlike you, I don't pretend to know anything about bomb disposal. But I do know that it happens quite often.
Have you actually seen a bomb disposal robot merely put 3 rounds into a suspicious object, or do they turn it into Swiss cheese with shotgun/automatic fire. The latter would make much more sense.
Dude, stop making shit up.
They didn't care for it in 1921, 1929, and 1936-1939 either. It also doen't seem to bother you that
* Israel has been the homeland of the Israelis for the past 3280 years.
* Israelis have lived in Israel continuosly for that entire time.
The Israelis had sovereignty over Israel for about 1000 years, the longest total compared to everyone else. The only other nation that might compete is the Byzatine empire, and they dissappeared over 500 years ago.
* The Israeli worldwide center of worship has been in Israel for the 3280 years. Out of those, the Tample stood on the Temple Mount for a total of 830 years.
* In the 19th century, Israel was almost uninhabited. However, in the cities about 30% of the population was Israeli. The country was mostly uninhabitable malaria-infested swamps and deserts.
* During the 19th century the Israelis started moving out of the cities, and Israelis and Arabs began moving into Israel.
* In 1920, 1921, 1929 the Arabs executed pogroms against the Israelis throughout the country, including Hebron, Jaffe, and Jerusalem.
* This quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah sums up the Israeli response to these Arab hostilities pretty well:
"Many Haganah fighters objected to the official policy of havlagah (restraint) that Jewish political leaders (who had become increasingly controlling of the Haganah) had imposed on the militia. Fighters had been instructed to only defend communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. This policy appeared defeatist to many who believed that the best defense is a good offense and, in 1931, the most militant elements of the Haganah splintered off and formed the Irgun Tsva'i-Leumi (National Military Organization), better known as "Irgun" (or by its Hebrew acronym, pronounced "Etzel"). In 1940, the Irgun also split over the issue of whether or not to attack the British during World War II and their off-shoot became known as the "Lehi" (Hebrew acronym of Lochamei Herut Yisrael, standing for Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, widely known as the "Stern Gang" after its leader, Abraham Stern)."
* There has never been a Palistinian state. The first to claim the existance of a Palestinian nation, seperate from the rest of the Arab nation, was the PLO, which waws founded in 1964. Until then they were regarded merely as Arabs who happened to live in Israel, not as some unique national entity.
Citation needed.
Only one country in the world considers that the "proper" reading of the treaty and that's Israel.
[citation needed]
Israel was defined by UN Mandate by its pre-1967 borders.
Considering that this discussion is about Israel in 1948 ...
Israel may claim that they can annex areas outside pre-1967 borders but that doesn't make it legitimate.
[citation needed]
Your basic argument as I see it is because Israel claims territory outside pre-1967 border the Geneva Conventions no longer applies.
No. My basic argument is that you cannot comprehend what you are reading.
Israel has never annexed the areas currently in contention, and as such they do apply to this discussion, so I do not see why you keep bringing them up.
That's ludicrous though because then any invader can take over land, claim it as their own and be exempt from the Geneva Conventions.
Yes, they can. Once the war is over, and if they actually claim it as part of their country, that is exactly what happens. There are other international treaties dealing with civilians, and those are still in effect at that point, however.
Claiming occupied territory as part of your country is not considered acceptable now and has not been considered acceptable for much of the last 50 years.
[Citation needed]
Seriously, though, you cannot be paying attention to reality at all if you believe this.
Whether it may have been in the past isn't relevant.
When you can't reference anything besides your own outrage that says otherwise, historical precedent is always relevant.
Treaties are international law.
Only to countries who agree to it. And even then, countries can back out - it's not like there's a World Government that can actually enforce them.
Calling treaties "international guidelines" would be closer to reality.
Or they thought that the laptop was a bomb, and decided that lugging it out back by themselves and shooting it was the correct make-safe procedure
Since when is it a failsafe to shoot at explosives ? Craaazy world ...
They wouldn't have an airport anymore, if that laptop would be rigged with explosives in the first place.
Your first estimate looks more acceptable, they just wanted to play judge, jury and executioner.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Where trains are not prison portals ...
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
... Which security guard/bomb squad is that stupid to fire upon (unknown) explosives?
I'd think there are still judges available in Israel; not borderguards being judge, jury and executioner at the same time.
To my opinion, this is one gigantic power-security-struggle-theater.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Better to ask: In which parallel universe does a "reasonable procedure" involve three bullets through an unknown explosive device?
They clearly seem to be very professional at their work, clearing up bombs with bullets..
On TV, they mostly cut the red wire with a lot of sweat, to disarm an IED ;)
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
That's the one - excellent job! Such a classic.
This is only semi-related, but this reminds me of one of my Dad's more humorous memories. It was high school and Dad was on a track team. He and his best friend were competing in a meet but his friend was terribly sick. During the race, the friend's illness caused him to puke and also lose bowel control. Dad finishes the race and cheers his sick friend on as the poor guy manages to finish the race with diarrhea running down his leg. Gross. So afterward, they grab their fresh clothes, put up the gym shorts and hit the showers. Afterward when dad's getting dressed, the sick friend emerges after a thorough cleaning, gets dressed and goes to get his gym bag and its nasty contents...but it wasn't there. Someone had STOLEN the gym bag! To this day, they still laugh thinking about what the thief's face looked like when he opened the stolen bag.
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Oh, okay.
Well you asked "Since when do we have a precedent that lands seized in a war are given to the inhabitants of the country that ends up with those lands?"
The answer to that question is "since always".
You might have really meant the question "in 1949, didn't we try to change the longstanding precedent that lands seized in a war are given to the victors?"
And the answer to that question would be, yes, we tried to do that, with impressive but imperfect results.
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Cute document. Wrong document. Don't let your scolding be disturbed by facts. You see, it is not in force in Palestina. Only the west-bank, superficially, claims to support this document.
The real constitution of Gaza is this document : the Hamas Charter
The content of this document is too vile to repeat. Suffice to say article seven specifies the purpose of killing all Jews, and states that they will move on to everyone else after that.
Note that the specific statement calling for extermination of Jews is a statement attributed, by all muslims, to the paedophile prophet of the islamic faith.
It goes : "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla ("servant of allah"), there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".
So theoretically, and this is EXACTLY what Hamas intends this statement to mean is that everyone who "follows" the paedophilic prophet has a religious duty to exterminate Jews (and to subjugate everyone else).
Unfortunately, a careful stufy will tell you this statement, as used by Hamas, is not pulled out of context, nor is it a lie. It is a (relatively central) part of muslim doctrine, of islam.
So the conclusion is that islamic doctrine itself is virulently anti-human rights. And it is also virulently anti-freedom-of-religion.
As such, I always wonder about the utter stupidity of people who claim allowing islam must be done due to freedom of religion rights. It is equally stupid as saying Stalin's Russia must be allowed to conquer due to freedom of political persuasion. Or that Jews must let themselves be exterminated, because of the freedom of people to have the nazi ideology. Or that we must allow white supremacists to exterminate blacks, after all, not doing so would be impeding their political espression (and the reverse too, for e.g. so-called "black panther" party)
So I ask you this question : since it is a fact that muslim ideology directly calls for the extermination of Jews, do you allow people to act out their muslim faith, or do you prevent religious genocides ?
Do tell. I'm terribly curious. But please stop claiming idiotic absurdities like that freedom of religion allows islam. That's like saying Hitler's extermination camps were right, due to freedom of political persuasion.
The only way Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are going to change is to persuade their followers to join the 21st century and accept reason, not superstition, as the basis for ethics and human affairs.
What theory, based in scientific fact, could be used for this ? Other than "survival of the fittest", of course, which you presumably do not want to see implemented as an ethics standard.
(and no I don't claim that will make us kill eachother. It will recreate a medieval society though, with wars and genocides between families, cities, and countries)
Force, pressure, or coercion is ineffective against religious nuts, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jewish--it just radicalizes you.
Pray tell, how was this done the last time ? How was Christianity made to accept "the 21st century" (human rights) ? You might want to google a few terms : "Robespierre", "Napoleon". I would note that one tactic employed was locking a village inside it's church, and then setting fire to it.
I wasn't aware Native Americans who colonized our land for 1000s of years before any Europeans ever stepped foot on our continent had to follow our law. ASSHOLE.
-Clio
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It's important, when discussing motives and targets as justification for action, to keep in mind that... if we take these claims of motives and targeting at face value, we learn that Israel's apparently pristine record of motives (self-defense) and targets (only combatants) has a much greater toll on innocent civilians than Palestinians' apparently nefarious motives (wanton violence) and targets (civilians).
For all the gnashing of teeth about Palestinian terrorism, the list of things Israel has done (apparently with the best of intentions) that Palestinians have not done is tremendous:
- In 1948, Israel destroyed the Palestinian society, driving out more than half of its population.
- From 1948 to 1967, Israel ruled those Palestinians who were not driven out of its borders as second-class citizens under a military regime.
- To present, those Palestinians are subjected to many discriminatory practices.
- Since 1967, Israel has ruled all Palestinians outside its recognized borders as non-citizens under a military regime.
- Since 1967, Israel has continually colonized land and natural resources (particularly water, nearly all of which in the Occupied Territories is under Israeli control, dispensed far disproportionately in favor of Israeli colonists), and destroyed the livelihood of thousands of Palestinians (farmland, shops)
- Israel employs a discriminatory building code regime which allows Israelis to build on Palestinian land but consistently bars Palestinians from the same; moreover, Israel destroys the homes of friends and family members of suspected terrorists.
- In 1967, Israel expelled a further 250,000 people from the West Bank
- Israel has maintained a brutal blockade on Gaza (and to a lesser but growing extent, the West Bank) for years
This is in no way an exhaustive list, and it only deals with Israeli offenses against Palestinian civilians *outside the heat of war* (where you have exempted Israel for responsibility for their harm to civilians in the comment I'm responding to). In the heat of war, where Israel apparently has such pristine motives and Palestinians apparently have such nefarious ones, the toll is consistent with the details above. Palestinian civilians are killed, conservatively, three to ten times as often as Israeli civilians.
Insofar as we are to decry the toll suffered by civilians, I think the conclusion is clear: counter-insurgency warfare (being, as it is, an extension of imperial/colonial policy generally) is substantially more harmful and destructive and inhumane than disorganized guerilla warfare (or terrorism). Put another way, if the claims about motives and targets are to be believed, both sides are failing miserably to achieve their goals, Israelis in particular being woefully incompetent. SInce Israel is such a competent military power, I think the claims don't stand up to scrutiny.
The same way they would be expected to tolerate a country that says outlandish things such as 'worship whom you wish'. They're a country, dude. A duly elected democratic body that just so happens to disagree with our world view. But they still have just as much right to be sovereign as any other nation that exists by means of the law.
Okay, but I feel entitled to the same freedoms as Palestinians. I feel, specifically entitled to
(1) fire rockets into palestinian cities. Place bombs aboard their busses and attacking their kindergartens using dozens of heavily armed soldiers.
(2) get billions from the U.N. (mostly from America) to "resolve the poverty that's causing the violence")
(3) International pressure (and even armies) used against anyone attempting to use any form of military action to make either the bombings or the money stop.
Agreed ?