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US DOJ Says Kindle In Classroom Hurts Blind Students
angry tapir writes "Three US universities will stop promoting the use of Amazon.com's Kindle DX e-book reader in classrooms after complaints that the device doesn't give blind students equal access to information. Settlements with Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Pace University in New York City and Reed College in Portland, Oregon, were announced Wednesday by the US Department of Justice. The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind had complained that use of the Kindle devices discriminates against students with vision problems."
How does the kindle discriminate against the blind any more than, say, A BOOK?
Ocean is land, covered with water.
Blind students don't have anywhere close to the access to information seeing people do... Not sure what the point is here
in 3... 2... 1...
So, all Amazon needs to do is add a text-to-speech feature, and then they can sue any school that tries to use paper books instead of the Kindle, because compared to a text-to-speech Kindle, paper devices discriminate against students with vision problems.
Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
Okay, I do understand the technicalities regarding why they say the Kindle is not as accessible to blind students as it is to sighted students. But what I don't get is - how is it different from the status quo? Blind students can't read regular textbooks already. What is it we can do for them with a printed textbook that we can't do with an electronic textbook?
And don't bring up braille, since that is a separate edition that has to be produced (and is thus independent of whether the "normal" book is on paper or electronic).
#DeleteChrome
may they could come up with a braille version as well!
You need a completely different model with different capabilities (braille) for blind people to access the information. And somehow a kindle that doesn't have voice controls for the menu is less blind-friendly than a normal book? When will people learn that Reality does indeed discriminate?
Has anyone else's universities been forcing ADA notices on their class syllabi? All of my classes have a little ADA Notice at the bottom stating that if one has any known and accepted disabilities they should contact the professor to make any sort of arrangements necessary. I'm thinking my school got in some sort of crap legal trouble and that's why the message is there.
That Harrison Bergeron is a warning........not a fucking "how-to" manual.
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
As long as they provide an alternative access to the same info, what is the problem?
Or are they going to close stairways because some people cannot use them?
That's like saying computer science shouldn't be taught because blind people can't read C++. This kind of pandering is ridiculous. Not only that, but this is at private universities, not state ones, so I don't think any of these statutes should apply.
On the other hand, I think kindle should have a read-aloud feature, even if just rudimentary. I just don't know how they would implement it when it comes to graphs and figures.
Is it just me, or are stories like this one becoming all too common? It seems we are becoming a society of "if everyone can't have it, then nobody can!" Unless of course they are individually wealthy, in which case they will simply BUY the damn thing.
So, sighted (and poor) students are deprived because blind students can't have the same advantages. Suppose a device was invented that allowed only blind people to receive information. Do you think there would be an outcry from the sighted world that it wasn't "fair" and so should be kept out of their hands?
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...is the capability of the lowest common denominator.
Braille doesn't provide much access to those with no arms.
THL phish sticks
The DOJ in the classroom hurts everyone.
this will give rise to invention of programmable tactile feedback by means of alterable physical surfaces.
You see none of the cars are designed to be driven by the blind. The blind do not get equal access to the roads from cars. So have they sued the car makers? Or the car makers have been grandfathered out of the ADA?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Yes, let's limit EVERYONE because a select few can't use a new technology.
The blind have always needed special teaching tools (Braille, audio books, or someone to read for them), so this isn't like a step backward or anything.
I feel for the blind, and they should definitely be accommodated, but not using eBook readers where they could be beneficial to others is not a good idea.
"If you can have it and I can't I'll sue" - Pretty soon kids are lucky to have access to food and clothing, let alone an education. It's a losing strategy compared to say innovating and catering to diversity. Why can't they lobby for an ebook reader that does cater to the blind. Perhaps popup braile? Instead of wasting effort sending all your kids minds back to the stone age. Doesn't have to be a Kindle either. Leave the brand names out of it.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
The settlement includes poking out the eyes of the blind kid's classmates.
There aren't any blind NASCAR drivers.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Clearly, the only way to be fair to the blind is to rip out everyone elses eyeballs so we're all equal. If no one can READ A BOOK or use a kindle than there will be no discrimination.
This is obviously a clear cut case of intentional discrimination against the blind, just like those evil bastards who invented the printing press.
Let me give you a hint. You're blind. You can not do the same things as people who aren't blind. It sucks, but thats just fucking reality. Stop expecting everyone else to cater to you. You make your own way in this world, start acting like you deserve a place in the world.
It could be a lot worse. If were were anything like ... oh ... every other living organism on the planet, the blind wouldn't live long enough to know what school ways, let alone bitch about not being able to use the device (kindle) that is replacing another device (traditional book) that you couldn't use either.
There is no discrimination, just some retards trying to get money for themselves by ranting about discrimination against a group of people. The only problem is, the thing doing the discrimination is nature and chaos, and they can't sue that.
So take away everyones eyes. Then we'll all support the blind better. We'll all be on a level FAIR playing field, and as a bonus, we'll never see another flash movie again. It makes total sense.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
So having an advance in technology like, Blackboards, Slide projectors, TV, even video projectors that leave the blind at a disadvantage should stop them from being used as teaching aids in classrooms because the lowest common denominator cannot benifit fully from them?
Sounds fine, oh wait I'm deaf. So lectures, teachers that can't sign and any form of audio presentation is bad.
OR, you know, we can all live in "not crazy land". Then we could give them brail ebook readers like there should bave been around before visual ebooks!
maybe they can force sighted students to wear blindfolds in class in future so that the blind have equal footing
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
You're talking COMMON SENSE there. If you're not careful, the agents of PC and Government interference will show up and arrest you.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
If politically correct DOJ was designing Olimpics games today, they would have to make sure obese people have the same chance of winning gymnastics or marathon competition as fit people.
And Mensa would be an illegal organization.
And passing US citizenship test would require no knowledge of English... oh wait...
It can convert words to audio itself. It doesn't do so so well but it is passable. The solution is simply to improve that feature, not kick the Kindles out of the classroom.
But when it's all "kindle" type devices then the information on the units can be "patched" or "updated" to fit the current political climate.
For example a story in a printed book is fairly fixed once you have the book, with a kindle if the story is deemed "offensive" it can instantly be edited and changed from what the original author wrote.
I guess I'm old (48) but I will always prefer the tactile sensation of an actual book to a kindle, and yes I have used a kindle.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I Can't Believe this, Colleges already bend over to do so much for blind students.
I've seen classes where they had a aid in the class to take chalkboard/teacher notes for the blind/deaf, even if the class only had one blind student. So they were commenting a whole man hour to benefit one student. Colleges tend to have a whole office staff for helping students with such disabilities, I'm sure if the book was not already in Braille, the college could get it transcribed.
Doesn't this really say something about deficiencies in the current e-ink and e-book implementations? I mean, if you have text in electronic format it should be nearly trivial to convert to braille/speech/what have you. I say throw out the damn thing from classrooms everywhere until the vendors fix that.
I think it's unfair that able-bodied students can get around campus quicker than the physically handicapped. All able-bodied students should be made to wear bags of birdshot during school hours.
I know no one reads the articles, as that would get in the way of the knee-jerking we all love to do. But the article makes it quite clear: the kindle includes a text-to-speech application, but no way for visually impaired folks to navigate. Therefore, the Kindle is not the right choice of e-book reader for institutions such as colleges and universities to promote. It is the Kindle that is unusable by the blind, not the e-books themselves.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
...that giving something to one person is equivalent to taking something from another.
Like I tell my 4 year old all the time: "So what if your cousin got a toy you didn't? Isn't it nice that she got a toy that made her happy? We're happy for her aren't we? Not mad we didn't get one too." At which point the 4 year old thinks about it and decides that's right and goes and pats his cousin on the back and is all smiles again.
If he gets it why can the rest of the adult world?
You know, when I was a child before I got involved with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind they used to sit me in a corner while the other children learnt silly things like how to read.
If a device like the Kindle is used in the classroom what are visually impaired children supposed to do? Download illegal text versions and run them through text to speech?
Damn "sighty" keepin' the blind man down!
crazy dynamite monkey
It is illegal for a resident of Canada covered by Canadian health care (say, a citizen, or landed immigrant) to pay for health care, and illegal for a health care provider to charge if they are in the "voluntary" system (which covers 99%+ of the population who can not legally pay anyway) which effectively forces almost all providers to be "in" the system. (There are specialty private clinics catering to non-citizen athletes, etc.)
This is similar to the socialized medicine systems in Cuba and North Korea (but, not, for example, the U.K. and other places with "two tier" socialized health care systems).
The argument is exactly this: it is unfair for some to have what others do not, even if they can pay for it.
This has some interesting effects: When I displayed my American-born son's American passport, he was seen in the clinic ahead of any Canadians who were there ahead of him. See, non-covered persons must pay, and pay more than the clinic receives from the government, so they get first dibs while Canadians wait in line.
In Liberty, Rene
So, I shouldn't be able to have a Kindle because a blind people can't use it??? FUCK THAT! They still have book in braille and on tape? Should I have to give up my car because a blind person can't use it? So, the 99.999% of students have to go without because of the few who can't use it? Thank you very much!
Attractive supermodels should be required by law to date just as many overweight computer geeks living in their mom's basement as rich, attractive, professional athletes. We're being discriminated against! Tiger Woods is getting more pussy than we do!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I actually have a blind child, and even I think this is ridiculous.
Based on this line of thinking, all LCD screens, whiteboards, books, and writing devices other than hole punchers and braile stampers should be immediately removed from all Public schools and government buildings. These devices hurt blind students and citizens.
That case should have been IMMEDIATELY tossed out of court based on the sheer stupidty of the argument. Then the lawyers should have been found in contempt of court and incompetent to practice law.
The problem isn't e-books or readers per-se. The Kindle even includes a text to speech application. But the Kindle lacks a way for visually impaired readers to navigate, and so, it is absolutely useless as it is. All that needs to be done is to tie the user interface into the text to speech application. That's it. Until that very, very simple problem is solved, colleges and universities are correct not to promote the use of this device. A good bit of publicity early on will ensure that all e-book readers in the future have this simple feature.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Imagine: a Kindle with reworked UI and, most importantly, having e-ink screen replaced with refreshable Braille display.
It's all just a stream of characters after all, and it's up to the device how to display them.
One that hath name thou can not otter
Simply blind everybody. That will certainly make the playing field equal, right? This is too stupid for words! Students should be assessed (graded) on how well they master the material. People with different capabilities will acquire the the knowledge in different ways. Am I being discriminatory because I won't hire a blind person to work in a sawmill or as a logger? Real life occupations may also be better for people who can see (like loggers who don't want branches and trees on top of them).
I've read the original documents, and I can see where blind students may want to get as much of the same experience as sighted people, but the manner and outcome of the learning HAS to be different simply because they cannot experience the class in the same way.
Hey, I always wanted to be an Astronaut! Can I sue NASA into giving fat guys a break?
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
should run with. It's available but waiting for some company to pick it up http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/04/17/braille-e-book/
I did like this comment on the design though: "I like how the power button lights up, you know, so they can see if it's on or not. A slide type toggle switch would have been more appropriate."
I have my doubts anyone will see this comment though, as far as I can tell, Slashdot throws away top level comments by "anonymous cowards", which is ridiculous.
Anyone else get a Harrison Bergeron vibe here? I'm not blind, but because one of my coworkers are, it would be unfair for me to use my eyes.
The Kindle has text to speech. There is absolutely no justification for this.
God, just get the blind student Braille e-book reader instead! http://images.google.com/images?ndsp=18&hl=en&um=1&q=braille%20e-book&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
I don't even see the value of having a Kindle in the classroom to begin with. It's like "cable in the classroom" - totally worthless. TV has been shown to have very little educational value, that's why you hardly ever got to watch videos in class as a kid.
In grade 8 I was in a special class that was half full of kids with these lame Brother laptops (PN-4400 or something). I'm no smarter now than I would have been without it that year. And no more computer-literate either. It's just another technological toy to get in the way.
No.
Instead this is about the university PUSHING a product that has intentionally sabotaged it's capacity to help the blind.
Assume for example that you are 4'2". Then assume that the company building houses in the areas put the door knob at the TOP of the door. Note, there is no need to do this, but they have done it.
Would you sue?
OF COURSE you would.
Same thing here. You have electronic devices that have the capacity to do text to voice. But to turn this on, you have to READ THE MENUS. Not once, but EVERY time they turn the device on.
This is a simple fix. Just put in a setting that tells the text to voice software to workon the device's own menus, activating when it turns on. Kindle says they will do it. Why do they say they will do it? BECAUSE THEY GOT SUED.
Without this very lawsuit, kindle would still be screwing over the blind with a poorly designed product that requires a sighted person to turn it on, instead of a well designed product that doesn't.
This is a very good example of how the law should be used - to fix moronic decisions made by companies for no good reason.
P.S. - why sue the university instead of Amazon? The students have more legal rights against the university than against Amazon because of the nature of the business.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
UP AND PRODUCE IT! If you had bothered to read the text on those links you'd find that the "braille e-book reader" is a DESIGN but no company produces it or plans to. The design is available, though.
There were some pretty epic facepalms in all of 2009, but I think THIS one trumps all of them. Off to a good start in 2010 I see.
Who are these "The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind"?
We have the CNIB (Canadian National Institute For The Blind) but they mostly just do fundraising to help research things like Optical implants (which they have successfuly created, I might add). Can just anyone start an minority interest group and complain to the government?
And I think the DOJ should be impeached for doing this. This is worse then "Crabs in a Bucket" mentality. I mean, anything that was designed to be looked at is essentially "Discriminating against the blind". Movies, Books, Watches, Make up, stylish clothing, traffic ilghts, etc. Is the DOJ saying that all of the United States should impair itself to accomodate the blind? What about Parapalegics? Should they get their arms and legs amputated? And the mute? Sew the mouth shut.
I'm sure the answer to the economic recession is to make as many US Citizens as useless as possible.
Imagine what could be gained by giving Kindles to MORE universities instead of less.
They're the ones who threw a hissy-fit over the Kindle's text-to-speech capabilities when they were announced maintaining that it constituted a "public performance" and is a violation of copyright. (and a big "ffff-ank you" to the slimeball record/collection agency lawyers who got the ball rolling on that one...)
Check out:
Amazon Gives In To Ridiculous Authors Guild Claim: Allows Authors To Block Text-To-Speech
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090227/1759173928.shtml
and
Disappointing: Obama Administration Won't Support Treaty For Helping Blind Get Digital Books
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090529/1917545057.shtml
for more...
--- http://www.astroturtle.com
This is like saying that since amputees exist that cannot use pencils, I should be discouraged from using pencils. Seriously. Books are available to students and encourages to be used, and one needs to order special books for the blind, so how is this different?
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
If I am reading TFA correctly, this was putting a stop to a pilot program. Shouldn't the lack of text-to-speech simply be a finding of the pilot on the way to a final decision on whether to use it or not? And of course, the pilot is being sponsored by the maker of the product, who would hear the concerns and respond to make sure their product meets ALL of the requirements. My question is, after a successful pilot, would they be providing free Kindles to all students or does this become another expense for the already cash strapped student?
Aren't the costs of post secondary education more discriminatory to a poor student than the availability of a Kindle is to a blind student?
I'm also curious about other classroom "visual aids": Charts, graphs, pictures, the widget the prof holds up to show the students...How have these been handled since starting to make serious efforts to accommodate students that are handicapped...disabled...physically challenged, whatever the politically correct term is now.
In my opinion, we do a disservice to these individuals by no longer recognizing that they are overcoming a challenge that other students face and are able to compete on an equal footing in spite of it.
Are there any slashdot readers that are themselves blind or deaf or have some other challenge they have had to deal with in a classroom who could weigh in on the topic with first hand experience? I honestly have no real personal point of reference. Other than slowly failing eyesight and hearing due to age, which is more in the pain-in-the-ass category than anything else, I've never had to deal with something like this.
I have to admit that on some level, I agree with some comments here that this is like blinding all the rest of the students to make things even. I argued once with a wheelchair-bound friend that it was not discrimination that kept him from being a firefighter, it was his inability to go up and down ladders.
National Federation of the Dyslexic says "Books In Clasroom Hurts Dyslexik Students".
At what point do we draw the line, and say that a MASSIVE MINORITY measuring in at likely under 1 full percent point of the active student population being unable to use a tool does NOT mean the tool should not still be used, and even made mandatory, for the other 99+%, with an ALTERNATIVE made available for the other small minority?
Why should X million people suffer because 1 of them is blind?
Will they next try to ban audio books because they cannot be red by the deaf?
So you give the blind kids braille or audio books, like we do now.. Or is now a real book with print on it not politically correct either?
What is wrong with people these days?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The Kindle was a lot better for visually impaired users until the Author's Guild did their dirty work to prevent the text-to-audio feature.
Yes, Amazon should make it easier to navigate but maybe positive pressure rather than lawsuits to prevent the feature would help speed that along.
I'm all for accommodating the disabled, however denying privileges to the able bodied because not everybody can participate is asinine. No matter what activity you select, there will be somebody unable to participate. Do what's best for 99% of people and then do your best to accommodate the remaining 1%.
Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
There is of course the frequent practice of teachers speaking (thus discriminating the deaf) and sometimes even pointing at things (which is highly insensitive to those without arms)
And don't get me started about some teachers _teaching_, discriminating those of us, who are stupid and lazy.
This is why we can't have nice things. It'll always be "unfair" to somebody.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
As someone who has worked in higher ed providing technology for the disabled, I'm happy to see this. If you actually read TFA, you'll see the issue is that there's no text-to-speech in Kindle's menus, so the blind can't navigate the device.
There have been text readers on the market designed for blind people to use on their own for years, there's no excuse for Amazon not to have included this functionality from day one. Too bad they had to get sued to make it happen, but sometimes that's what it takes. Hell, I've seen blind kids navigate Windows at ludicrous speed using it's built-in accessibility tools. If MS can make a whole OS accessible, there's no excuse for Amazon to fail with a simple ebook reader.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
We need to outlaw all colleges, as they require a certain level of grades and use SAT scores as admission criterea, which discriminates against people with low IQs known as learning disabled! At the very least we should outlaw the blackboard, which clealry is in violation of the same core principle of equal access to the blind. Holy shit these people are morons!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
This would be my solution to this problem as well. Everyone is talking about text-to-speech,when the data is already in a form that could be sent to Braille display.
Eric
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So, the core problem is not the Kindle or eReaders themselves, but the use of proprietary DRM'd eBooks on eReaders. So, if we just limit the schools that recommend eReaders to using Open Textbook content in an open format, and fix the audio navigation issue on the Kindle or use something like the Alex, then everything would be fine and there would be more of an incentive to fund Open Textbook initiatives.
Of course, Amazon prefers to sell DRM'd versions of books even when non-DRM'd versions are available from the publisher, but they'd be cut out of this whole process, so it becomes a non-issue.
There... problem solved... next ;)
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
to those without sight but how does giving sighted students a better tool hurt the non-sighted ones? Should we maybe stop teaching verbally because some are deaf? Let's really level the playing field and just stop teaching altogether...
So, this is about politics (as usual) than anything else.
I've got a beef against Kindle in particular, but nothing to do with "accessibility". Amazon has the power to delete content from your Kindle at will, and have done so. I don't like that and therefore I refuse to use the device myself.
But if others are OK with Amazon having that kind of power over their content, more power to them.
That issue aside, I'd much rather have all of my books in electronic format -- much lighter, can carry far more, and they can get updated if information in them happens to be incorrect, out of date, etc.
Cannot the blind use special laptops to access the same information? Would seem a simple enough solution. Or maybe it's too simple. Gotta do something far more dramatic, like hold everyone else back. Shame on you for being able to see!!!!
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
You don't even need a fancy gadget: text in electronic form is far easier to convert to Braille than written or printed text. Since using the Kindle requires the instructor to have material in electronic form stopping its use is not only stupid but actively counter productive! As a professor our student disability support service greatly prefers me to provide them with electronic material since it makes their life a lot easier. If I provide them with printed material they have to type it in themselves first and manually redraw diagrams which takes far longer.
Surely the point the this US act is to ensure that people with disabilities have access to the same material not that they have to access it through exactly the same device?
You didn't read the FA. The complaint is that the navigation menus etc are not included in the text-to-speech converter.
Infuriate left and right
The summary is terrible. These universities were going to switch everything over to mandatory Kindle use. So current blind students were going to get left out, because it has terrible accessibility features (yes, there's text to speech, but it doesn't help with the menus, etc.) So the government told them to hold off on these plans until the Kindle is fully accessible. They didn't say they can't use them, just that they can't mandate them until the Kindle is brought up to standards.
People who want to whine about things haven't paid any attention to what the DOJ *actually* did or why. There's no story here, just flamebait.
Please move along.
Why can't they lobby for an ebook reader that does cater to the blind.
Better yet, why don't they lobby FOR the readers, to help them achieve the critical mass needed to support tertiary products, LIKE BRAILLE READERS AND TEXT TO SPEECH PLUGINS.
To the blind: I wholly empathize with your plight, but you have some really dumb fucking people trying to help your cause...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
As someone who has worked in higher ed providing technology for the disabled, I'm happy to see this. If you actually read TFA, you'll see the issue is that there's no text-to-speech in Kindle's menus, so the blind can't navigate the device.
I don't care. I have a tool that I can use, and I can use it. It's not right to hold someone back in the name of egalitarian principals. Saying that I cannot do something, because someone else cannot, is bullshit. Disability does not give you the right to oppress.
This is my sig.
Pens and keyboards discriminate against people with no hands.
They should all come with an in-built microphone.
Once again Slashdotterers jump the pun and explore every available tangent.
Notice that we're all talking about a caricature of a settlement. No complaint or legal argument is offered in the fine article. (I'm generally nonplussed by reporting on legal issues and even less happy when the terms of a settlement are withheld from the public without legally justfiable cause, which IMHO should be as rare as the toads in winter.) But even so, the objection was to the promotion of a commercial product into the classroom. One designed to do what? Allow students to support Amazon & Sprint?
We're talking about Amazon's marketing as much as the public/private partnership being fostered by University administrators.
I want to 'see' e-readers supplant the tome as much as the next geek, but in this case it's reasonable to to require publicly funded institutions not favor technology which doesn't meet the needs of [legally] blind students before we pimp the student body, promote a half baked solution and give a huge commercial advantage to a single corporation. I don't believe there's a logical excuse for not having had the Kindle ready to meet the ADA standard before it is shoved to the head of class.
It's not as if Amazon is trying to be altruistic here, and what's wrong with a little delay in the name of egalitarianism? Are we afraid it might set a precedent, that the FDA might, all of a sudden, start requiring pre-market safety research, delaying the next wonder treatment for erectile dysfunction, or perhaps we're all worried that the FCC might hinder Clear Station or Rupert Murdoch in their bid to dominate ownership our failing systems of commercialized journalism?
Who knows, maybe the Fed will.... No! Not a chance... B-)
Im sueing too. Not kindle , no Im sueing the makers of items done in brial. All day long I see people using brail to "Read" all sorts of things. Brail discriminates against myself and others like me. ... just go stand in the corner and mumble.
I have NO HANDS. Imagine seeing others enjoy "reading" brail all day long , but when you try you cant understand anything thru your useless withered stump of a wrist. It makes me sad just thinking about it. I should sue for discrimination AND pain and suffering.
We as Americans can NOT LET THIS STAND. If anyone with a disablity can not use something It should be banned outright.
Blind people start making a list of things you cant see so we can ban them. (gee I hope there is a BRAIL version of slashdot)
Deaf people start making a list of things you cant here so we can ban those things as well.
Dumb people
People with no sense of smell make a list of everything you cant smell so we can ban that.
To cut the list short
We should all be reduced to just a brain in a box cut off from all outside contact. With only our thoughts to......
Damn forgot about the Republicans...We should all be reduced to brainless sludges in a box.
Damn I wish 2012 would get here, im thinking the roaches cant do it any worse than we have so far.
... would be to mandate distribution of the textbooks in platform-neutral formats that the Kindle as well as devices better suited to the blind. You like your Kindle. Fine. Use it. Don't like it? Get a different e-book reader or load the content onto a laptop. With enough choices, someone is bound to have something that will accommodate everyone's needs.
Have gnu, will travel.
RRRRRRRRRR
TTTTTTTTTT
FFFFFFFFFF
AAAAAAAAAA
If you did so, you'd know that the issue here is not the Kindle versus books, but the fact that the Kindle design ignores the needs of vision impaired users. Yes, there's a fancy text-to-speech feature — but it only works with the content. In order to get at the content, you have to navigate the Kindle's menus, which are totally inaccessible to blind users.
It wouldn't have been that hard for Amazon to have a voice prompt feature; they probably just didn't see it as a priority. Now they have to make it a priority, and risk losing their lead in the academic market to eBook readers that are more farsighted. (No pun intended.) And that is the whole point of the litigation.
Online discussions seem to always assume that if a story doesn't make sense, the people in the story are stupid. It never seems to occur to anybody that they don't have all the facts. And that is stupid.
The solution is to give you special support, not to handicap everyone else. When I was a kid, I was pulled out of class and sent to G.A.T.E. (gifted and talented education) classes until the California PC morons ended that and left me in the corner while the other children learned silly things like how to not eat glue. This is our new No Child Left Behind system, where nobody goes anywhere.
The premise of the argument is that blind students should be given the tools to read independently, just as their sighted counterparts are given. But the secret that nobody will admit is that no blind person is a fully independent reader.
Browsing any text by a blind person, whether in braille or audio format, is inherently inefficient compared to browsing it visually. Most blind people, particularly at the college level, work together with a sighted "reader" to sort through the huge volume of reading material. Once the desired material is found, it is then, hopefully, available in braille or audio form to read and review as needed. But the entire process is dependent on working with a sighted reader to filter the material down to a manageable size that can be dealt with in a non-visual format like audio or braille.
Banning e-readers on the grounds that blind people cannot use them independently represents a gross misunderstanding of the reading process used by blind students. No blind student is a fully-independent reader, so it is unreasonable to insist that all reading technology be independently operable by a blind person.
Well obviously if it hurts than turn down the brightness.... ohh wait too soon?
1. Proves that our government is full of idiots.
2. Proves that blind people are frakkin' blind.
Does one thing, destroys any good will people have toward the handicap. Frankly, I see this, and I want to cut all funding to blind people and shout at them "YOU'RE !@#$% BLIND!"
Look, our society does a lot for the handicap, perhaps we can do more, and I am all for doing more where and when it's feasible. But you have to accept a certain extent of your handicap. So you're blind and you can easily navigate your Kindle. It's not like you can walk into Barnes and Noble and read all the books either. Deal!
It's harsh, yes. But when you take our goodwill and slam it in our face, don't be surprised if you get tossed to the roadside.
What does liquid resistance have to do with it?
He must mean the viscosity of coffee!
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
The real problem with this lies with the DRM.
I've knew two guys who copied their A4 books to A3 format; so they could read their materials anyways.
Break the DRM and blind people will be offered options to use textbooks as they want. Not like Amazon wants..
How freaky can it be to have a book, which you can't print or copy a page from, for further reference; in a SCHOOL?
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
And how does this affect overal readability ?
A copy of a page, double enlarged is still the full page which reads easier than a piece of text which is electronically enlarged on a small screen.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
As a sighted person and a consumer of college texts, I hearby pledge to donate 1/4 of the difference between dead tree texts and e-book texts to developing a kick-ass text distribution/consumption capability for the disabled.
Seriously - how much end-user savings will this generate for the primary target audience?
I have a serious problem with DoJ denying the university the authority to use a particular technology and demand that the technology incorporate a particular feature set. ADA gives DoJ authority to require the university to provide a REASONABLE ACCOMODATION for those with disabilities that prevent their use of standard facilities/capabilities.
IMHO, requiring Amazon to change the feature set of their commercial product based on ADA for higher education is NOT a reasonable accomodation. The fact that they're big, capable, and that "they just need to abc xyz" is NOT a valid arugment for the reasonableness of the accomodation. Now I have a feeling the settlement actually said that the universities can't make the kindle (or similar device) mandatory until such time as they adequately support folks with disabilities (I'm assuming that's 508 compliance ). Which amounts to requiring Amazon to implement a broad feature set to support a fractionally sized community in order to get access to a large market.
So the precedent is now set - any disability community can leverage any public venue to pick the pocket of a large corporation and require them to accomodate their disability to gain access to the public venue. And the explicit leverage is that the majority of the inhabitants of the public venue will be locked out of the technology or innovation. OK - maybe that's abstract. But now it's a reality, with legal precedent.
Wasn't the point of Atlas Shrugged that if society lays too many burdens, obstacles, and demands on those actually producing (like Amazon...) that their ultimate recourse is to stop producing?
As Arlo Guthrie would say:
"...began to cry, 'cause Obie came to the realization that
it was a typical case of American blind justice,
and there wasn't nothing he could do about it"
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant
RLH
i just dont see the point your trying to make
Now you have a pretty level playing field.
Let alone the fact the ADA can be stretched to extremes and if not then some obscure local law can be applied.
The simple matter is, AMAZON HAS A TON OF MONEY. UNIVERSITIES as a whole have lots of money too.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Maybe that's because publishers are, by default, disabling the text-to-speech function on their works. I'm annoyed with how many books I downloads on my kindle have text-to-speech disabled.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Yes. Not only that, the government has no constitutional right to make those laws. It's clearly up to the states.
Yeah, but what would Jesus think about a guy in the class who cannot see but wants to learn, and cannot because everyone else was selfish. What would Jesus think about a man in a wheelchair not able to get up a curb or a step where everyone walked by, because they were too greedy to put in a stoop or stop to help. If all we are is dust and molecules, then yeah, let the crippled and blind go back to being dust, but Christ did not put a limit as to what is human and what is not. Christ healed the sick, and lived among the infirm, and challenged us to do the same.
Yes, being tapped on the shoulder and being asked to change is a terrible pain in the ass, a disruption, and inconvenience, but is it really so hard to watch. Christ will judge you you know, so you may as well apologize to Him and the Infirm for you curses and get on with building ramps and fixing the Amazon software.
This is my sig.
I've read all the comments. I think you have missed the real reason this is all happening. What we have here is a competitor such as Sony that is worried they will lose most/all of the contracts with universities across America now that the trend has been set at these schools. They are not going to let that happen. It's not for the reason they say, "the blind students". There hundreds of billions of reasons that trump any student, but it always sounds better if you can put a pretty bow on it. Think man! Do you really believe the DOJ is suddenly interested in helping blind students, just out of the blue, for the good of mankind? It's a sneaky way for companies to destroy someone's market share without the need of a better/more adopted product. It's been done before. You will see a press release soon from the National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind on how e.g. the Sony reader doesn't have the problems of the Kindle, and in a bold move to help students across the country are reducing the price of their reader to match that of the Kindle.
...cars don't provide equal access to transportation...hmmm, guess we gotta get rid of cars now. Yay. What a fucking retarded judgment.
Doesn't the kindle have rudimentary text-to-speech? Whereas most dead-tree books most certainly do not.
Question everything
contact the asst. attorney general and tell him how you feel.
Here is the contact information for the idiot public servant that pursued this claim:
http://www.justice.gov/crt/ofcaag.php
Office of the Assistant Attorney General
Mailing Address
U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Office of the Assistant Attorney General, Main
Washington, D.C. 20530
Telephone Number for the General Public - (202) 514-4609
Fax Numbers
(202) 514-0293
(202) 307-2572
(202) 307-2839
Telephone Device for the Deaf (TDD) - (202) 514-0716
Assistant Attorney General
Thomas E. Perez
I'm just amazed at how many people are missing the point, even after I've explained it. Fixing this requires a software patch to allow text-to-speech of the UI. That's it. Are you saying you don't WANT the Kindle to be accessible to blind people?
Why should Universities spend good money to promote this? It's not as if the Kindle is being banned, sighted people can still choose to use it. The universities just aren't going to promote it.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Two issues with your statements:
1) You allude that there is something wrong with the healthcare we as Canadians receive. This is false, our care is very good. Is it "the best" maybe not, but it is certainly better than most citizens in the US receive (since most are uninsured).
2) There is something wrong with having to wait your turn to get treatment. There are two issues with this:
a) If you and I arrive with the same issue, but I arrive first, it is only fair that I get seen to first, and in most cases our wait times aren't much worse than anyone else's, IIMO that wait times are so short in many US hospitals because the insurance companies prevent people from being approved for treatment. This simply does not happen in Canada, if you need treatment, you get it.
b) in Canada if you arrive and your condition is more sever than mine (ie: I can wait without any harm to myself for you to be treated) the you WILL be seen to first. This is proper.
I also like how you brought up "Cuba" and "North Korea" as the comparisons to our healthcare system, and not any of the many others (who aren't communist) who share our 1 tier system. How sad of you to lower yourself to such scare tactics.
Did they drop the use of power point?
Have they stopped labeling hallways?
Do the teachers not write information on the white board?
Does anyone wear a name tag?
Have they gotten rid of laptops?
Do they not use worksheets?
Are other students not allowed to take notes in class?
Did they outlaw pens and pencils?
So does slashdot "hurt blind net admins and developers" because they can't read it too?
AccountKiller
Three US universities will stop promoting the use of Amazon.com's Kindle DX e-book reader in classrooms after complaints that the device doesn't give blind students equal access to information.
Being blind is an affliction that's characterized by a lack of certain information. What are they gonna do? Blindfold the other students to make for a more even classroom?
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
I suppose it's too much to expect people to RTFA. Nowhere in the article is it either stated or implied that e-readers are being banned.
What's next, banning the use of televised material, movies, and any presentation using visual aids such as plots? Or does teaching any subject not understandable to someone with a low IQ somehow become prohibited as well?
Making the majority of students use paper books does not make things better for those with limited sight, it just means they spend more per book, have more garbage as the book becomes obsolete, etc. I guess next they will forbid use of any book not available in braille.