Slashdot Mirror
Prison Bans D&D For Mimicking Gang Structure
Trepidity writes "In a case that has been winding its way through the courts for a while now, a Wisconsin prison banned inmates from playing Dungeons & Dragons, using the justification that 'one player is denoted the Dungeon Master... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other players... [which] mimics the organization of a gang.' The prison also cited some sparse evidence that a handful of non-inmate D&D players once committed some crimes that allegedly were related to their D&D playing. On Monday the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the regulation (PDF) against challenges from inmates. The court appeared skeptical of the ban, sarcastically referring to it as the 'war on D&D,' but upheld it nonetheless as having a 'rational basis.' Law professor Ilya Somin suggests that the court may have had no choice, given how deferential rational-basis review usually is."
What if they played any other sort of RPG?
Or is the law so nutty that they'll ban boardgames like Clue because it features a murder? Or Colditz, because it features escaping from a prison?
They are now all playing Mafia Wars.
Soon, the game Paranoia will be outlawed.
After seeing Oz, the concept of "dungeonmaster" in prison brings on a whole new meaning...
They could be learning to post on /. - the pinnacle of civilized interaction with other people.
No sig today...
Especially programming and preferably foreign languages. Today's scams are awful.
They should think of their career!
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
Well, I hope these people don't participate in any work training programs. Those are also structured disturbing like gangs, with a leader and people specializing in different things. I think some people have also committed crimes while at work.
Why are inmates playing games anyway? They have lots of time - shouldn't they spend that time learning pottery/cooking/raising kids/social skills/programming so that they are fun people by the time they get out of jail?
That's the ideal - at least in the UK. The reality is overcharging consultants providing mediocre services to a system that is fundamentally unable to cope. Strangely - it is only the offenders who seem to care anymore...
The United States Supreme Court banned the government, using the justification that 'one player is denoted the President... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other players... [which] mimics the organization of a gang.' The court also cited some sparse evidence that a handful of other presidents once committed some crimes that allegedly were related to their governing.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
If a game where one person moderates the actions of the other players is banned because of that, then they will have to ban every game that has a referee or judge, as well as any plays that have a director, music that uses a conductor, and so many other activities.
Admittedly I never though about prisoners doing any of those things, including D&D, but hey, whatever works.
Perhaps Wisconsin just wants their inmates lifting weights so they benchpress a freaking car during their next robbery or something. Obviously more desirable than letting someone participate in a moderated adlib fantasy play where you (usually) take the part of heroes against the forces of evil. Can't let them criminal types learn ta use dem brains and actually tink dey can better demselves. Why if dey did dat, us cops and law-yurs wouldn't have nobody ta prosecute...
Sorry for the extreme sarcasm, but those idiots deserve it. Maybe if they played more D&D (and a few other PnP RPGs) they'd have less riots, violence, and repeat offenders. Of course, taking away a gamers books and dice might just start one...
There might be evidence that some inmates go on to commit crimes that are related to their spell in prison. So ban prison.
'one player is denoted the Dungeon Master... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other players... [which] mimics the organization of a gang.'
Clearly, no-one involved in the case has ever played a decent game of D&D. But why bother with facts when prejudice and hysteria will suffice ?
For the 0.0001% of Slashdotters who've never played, a good "dungeon master" (just like a good computer game programmer) creates an interactive environment for players to explore.
What the players decide to do from there is what can make the game an interesting vehicle for self-discovery and excercising one's imagination and problem-solving abilities.
It no more mimics the structure of a gang than someone attending a lecture or watching a play.
I don't know. They're still not free, you know. And you don't want to send inmates into a deep depression either. Yes, learning useful skills sounds like a good way to pass the time there, but there's a lot of time in prison, and they need to relax every once in a while too. Besides, RPGs can also teach useful skills.
Wow, this makes me feel a lot better about my youth. Apparently I wasn't a geek who played D&D all the time and never got out, no, I was in a gang! Maybe they'll find that living in a basement is actually the same structure as a president living in a secure bunker giving orders to everyone.
"The prison also cited some sparse evidence that a handful of non-inmate D&D players once committed some crimes that allegedly were related to their D&D playing."
My only crime was to CAST FIREBALL at LEVEL 6 and do 6D6 damage to everyone in a huge sphere in front of me...except the ones who made their saving throws.
I wouldn't even be here except I rolled a 4 on my SAVING THROW VS. JUDGES
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Freedom of speech
Beyond prison reach
Societal deportment
So hard to teach
Burma shave
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
That rationale would ban fiction novels, too, though (well, except maybe gritty realist fiction), which prisons don't generally do.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Most prisons have some leisure time alloted, which wasn't really at issue here--- the warden had no problem with there being leisure time, he just didn't want D&D played during that leisure time. The prison appears fine with inmates watching TV or reading books or playing chess or whatever during that time.
Mostly what caught my eye is the absurdity of "D&D has a dungeonmaster who gives orders, which is like a gang" rationale. There might be some good reason prisoners should have less leisure in general, or should be prohibited from playing D&D in particular, but that particular reason is pretty absurd.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Being in prison is not just about removing a dangerous element from society, it is about taking someone's freedom as a punishment.
Actually prison as "punishment" is now a violation of human rights. Prisons are supposed to be entirely for the purposes of "rehabilitation".
Of course the people who wrote the human rights have no understanding that most of the people in prison have serious anti social personality disorders, probably can't be "rehabilitated", and probably don't qualify as "human" in the first place. But that's another story.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
AROOOOOGA! Imagination detected in sector 7G. Initiate emergency synaptic lockdown.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Well, I guess that would only leave them a nice, quiet game of GTA to pass the time to pass the time...
... magic missiles do.
I'ma tell my crew about it tonight after we execute every single one of those goblin mu'fas, take all they bling, and use it to buy mad straps.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
With the exception that once the game ends and you return to your cell, the reality of your situation is inescapable.
You may have thought that you'd escaped for a few hours, but you didn't escape at all, and that taste of imagined freedom turns to ash.
Th cruelest prisons always have a window to the open sky...
I don't really know what you're saying here, I don't see any readers implying (other than in jest) that fantasy games have anything to do with criminality. The implication is very strongly that a spurious link to criminality was used to justify a ban on something the prison authorities just don't like.
As to your claim that the only options are either fantasy games allow criminality or have no effect on criminality, I'd repudiate that absolute claim unless you can provide evidence that playing games which encourage imagination and social interaction and highlight the consequences of ones actions as well as (generally though admittedly not always in D&D) guiding the players along the path of "good" with positive reinforcement have zero effect on reducing instances of repeat offences.
Wrong. Beeing in prison is about BOTH of it. And in addition, it's also about receiving training on how to fit into a mainly non-criminal society.
You know... some three pillars -stuff..... the thing you would present with three overlapping circles in a powerpoint-slideshow.
bickerdyke
What's a warden but a 'dungeon master.' Maybe he didn't want to share the title.
They should ask a prison guard to be the Dungeon Master :)
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
I openly admit to not reading ALL comments prior to posting this, but.... I think the top level posters so far are missing the real issue here. These people are in Jail for a reason. Let's not treat them to things they do not deserve.
Jail should be a place to serve a sentance and to hopefully let the the criminals reflect on their crime and hopefully learn a lesson. It SHOULDN'T be a place where criminals get to hang out and play board games. That's just ridiculous. Yes, D&D and any other aformentioned board games are harmless, but enabling someone to have fun in a place of punishment is just downright absurd. I know people who have been to jail, and while they say it was absolutely no fun at all, their behavior after their sentance really didn't change.
The system is broken. We can't let people forget the reason they're being punished...
If they are not treated to any entertainment at all, they will become depressed and kill themselves. Clearly, this is not the intention of jail either, is it? I understand that you have some sort of sadistic need to see these people suffer, but there are limits to how you can treat people (yes, inmates are people too), both stemming from psychology and international law.
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
little side tangent, if you suffer from some mental disorder which makes you dangerous to others is it's societies duty to punish you for being sick or to try to cure you?
One person taking charge? Sounds like management to me. Which came first, the gang or the manager?
Yes, yes! Let the only board game be waterboarding!
Seriously. I don't get why you folks are so thirsty for other's punishment.
Ideally, prison should be there for society to protect itself (its members) from criminal behaviour. Anything going beyond that is too much. Society should treat inmates with as much respect as possible and with as little restrictions as necessary.
Get a grip.
HUMANITY!
This is pure hunter/gatherer humanity: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/12/hadza/finkel-text
Tell me that does not prove that the natural structure of human society is that of gangs!?
Man, stupid, stupid, STUPID.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
There is a DM someone who sets the rules of the game and make sure everyone plays with in the imaginary boundaries. The DM is an authority figure and the players must acquesce to his/her rules. This is basically a model for prison life and some would say life as a "good citizen".
If the rules are in dispute you negotiate and resolve the issue before moving on. Negotation is definitely something you want to teach to violent offenders since they may not have had any 1st hand experience with it.
Basic mathematics and reading. Playing a game and being good at it requires one to learn the rules of the game. You want to find that numbers advantage? the DM isn't going to hand it to you on a silver platter. Many small gamers learn to read so they can figure out what to do next or what the screen is telling them and the same can apply in a prison setting with low literacy rates and math skills.
Abstract problem solving skills. Ok this makes the criminal more dangerous but it could be a skill set that could be used for good and finding a respectable job. (yes I know about job aps and disclosure of arrests/prison time)
As some one said before socializing with others as well as team work to accomplish goals together.
open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
Actually, having a guy called "dungeon master" telling prisoners what to do sounds just like prison.
>are supposed to be...learning to reintegrate into society
>Sitting around playing games and watching TV all day
Makes perfect sense to me!
Of course the people who wrote the human rights have no understanding that most of the people in prison have serious anti social personality disorders, probably can't be "rehabilitated", and probably don't qualify as "human" in the first place. But that's another story.
I doubt that is the case. Unless you believe that a very large percentage of Americans have personality disorders and don't qualify as humans. A much larger fraction than in other countries around the world.
Sure some are so far gone that they can never be rehabilitated, but I'd argue that most are not.
If you wanted to create a well-adjusted person would you lock your child up with a bunch of murderers, arsonists and rapists as the only humans to interact with? Having to live in fear of being beaten up or raped. With nothing to do but stare at a wall. Then why would you think it would be a good thing to inflict on adults?
The problem is that putting people in prison for rehabilitation is the worst plan since Abe Lincoln said to his wife: "I'm sick of sitting around the house, let's catch a play."
Note to self: Don't be Chaotic Evil in Wisconsin!
i think it has more to do with S&M than D&D
just saying
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
In my workplace, one worker is denoted the Manager, who is tasked with giving directions to the other workers, which mimics the organization of a gang.
Or a software company. Or a labor union. Or a political party, family unit, social club, tribe, republic, grange, baseball team, or university department. Wow, just about every human institution mimics the structure of a gang!
In a related story, prison officials ban food because its hydrocarbon compounds mimic the chemical structure of explosives.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Monopoly banned for associations with bling, checkers banned due to confrontational game play, scrabble because it can be used to pass encrypted messages...
99% of all murderers ate bread in the 12 months leading up to their crime, so lets ban bread while we are here. oh, and lets ban judges because they are clearly hangovers from a rather medieval system also associated with chopping peoples heads off.
Gee whiz! Taking away all those freedoms... It sounds like prison!
[signature]
Cyberpunk and Paranoia are probably ok then.
i don't believe the issue is constitutionality so much as fear of the precedent this would create from the crummy logic being employed here.
irrespective of whether you feel that prisoners should be miserable in prison, the idea that any kind of hierarchical structure, no matter how innocuous, could theoretically lead to gang activity--which relationship the state is unable to demonstrate, incidentally--is extraordinarily broad. the volokh blog specifically skewers that thinking: should pick-up football games be banned b/c one inmate is the QB and he provides instruction to the other players of his team? couldn't that hierarchhical structure also theoretically lead to gang activity under the state's logic?
ed
I doubt that is the case. Unless you believe that a very large percentage of Americans have personality disorders and don't qualify as humans.
You present a non sequitur. First of all, that's not what I said. Only around 3% of the general population have anti social personality disorder. Secondly I made no comparison to other countries. However Up to 80% of prison populations have this disorder (the cited article says 75%, in med school I learned 80%). This is logical since the people who commit the crimes are more likely to be caught and sent to prison, so you will end up with a concentrating effect of the disorder in the prison population. No one said "American", and I don't have comparative data for other countries around the world. However it would be reasonable to assume that there's nothing special about "Americans" in particular, and similar statistics must exist in other countries.
If you wanted to create a well-adjusted person would you lock your child up with a bunch of murderers, arsonists and rapists as the only humans to interact with?
I do not think that the current model is the best model. As a preventive and deterrent system, it is clearly broken. As for rehabilitation, well, that's a joke too. Frankly my own views are rather extreme, and will never be implemented, and are certainly a violation of human rights. But we were talking about the actual world we live in.
The problem is that putting people in prison for rehabilitation is the worst plan since Abe Lincoln said to his wife: "I'm sick of sitting around the house, let's catch a play."
Agreed. But you just can't hang them in public anymore.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Actually most people in prison are there for drug crimes.
I was under the understanding that most people in prison were completely innocent.
You can look up the statistics for yourself, yes? That's the joy of the internet era and things like google. 70 to 80 percent of prison populations have anti social personality disorder. That's an established fact. Now you can argue all you want, but it won't change the facts, yes?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Heh... So, instead of playing D&D they will just shank other inmates in their free time. I'm betting this isnt about security, or gangs, or any of that shit in reality. It's about the warden being a poostabbing griefer. Well, I hope they knife him to death when the riots come.
$10 says that when you boil this down there is a silly bible-thumper at the root of this.
There is a war going on for your mind.
Prison is also supposed to rehabilitate. People like you forget that part.
There is a war going on for your mind.
little side tangent, if you suffer from some mental disorder which makes you dangerous to others is it's societies duty to punish you for being sick or to try to cure you?
I think that was the whole point the people who wrote the human rights bills and prison reform laws were trying to get across. However it fails to account for the fact that 1) Is it the fault of the person you killed that you are "sick"; 2) Is it the fault of the next person you are going to kill that you are still "sick" and 3) anti social personality disorder is one of the least treatable mental illnesses with a very low chance of a "cure". Their world view is so distorted that it is unlikely they are willing to accept help. Some people actually do just want to watch the world burn.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
It's untenable to provide an environment conducive to true rehabilitation while prisons are artificially kept full as a result of a corrupt war upon humanity billing itself as the "War on Drugs." The first problem needs to be fixed before you can ever expect prisons to evolve.
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
Somewhere in this process sat a stupid christian convinced that D&D was a game of devil worship.
Awesome. Because typical prison life doesn't work at all like a gang. A guard is in charge and the inmates have to do what they say or else they are punished. It sounds more like some brainless kook is in charge of the place and trying to get his pet beliefs pawned off as rational ideas for rehabilitation. D&D doesn't make people violent, constant violence around them makes people violent. In D&D there is a structured outlet for aggression that involves defeating an evil being to achieve the rewards. God knows we don't want inmates learning those values. Idiots.
I hope for your country and its inhabitants that you never take up a political office.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Well that's the joy of redaction, isn't it? You could probably have gone further and turned it into:
[...] most [...] people [...] don't qualify as "human" in the first place.
Fortunately for you, I have no political ambitions... :)
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I'm shocked by how many people in this discussion seem to think that prison inmates are subhumans who don't deserve any rights and should be driven to suicide.
How does that help? The only thing you'd ensure would be that those who do make it out have a justified hatred towards society and will definitely commit more and worse crimes. And, of course, everyone who does commit a crime would have a strong incentive to kill all witnesses as prison would be designed to crush the inmates' soul and capital punishment wouldn't offer much of an additional threat.
And all of these observations are besides the fact that the very statement that inmates don't deserve to be called human is a sign of complete moral bankruptcy and nothing short of appalling.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
The game has The banker.
Who has a role similar to loan sharks.
Also, some non-inmates who have played monopoly in the past were found to have embezzled money.
The game directly encouraged that, since the Banker is the one player allowed to sneak themselves as much cash as needed from the vault...
a dungeon is basically a medieval prison. any dragons in such a dungeon are simply a metaphorical abstraction of the idea of the criminals you find there: people who freely transgress against morals and decency
so the idea of prisoners, the dragons, playing d&d in prison, aka, the dungeon, is absurdist in the highest order
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What an interesting concept. Of course, we would need to ensure that it would actually work for the intended purpose. Would you be willing to be the first test subject of your own suggested "solution?"
"Fun people"?
... and then they built the supercollider.
Well that's the dumbed down version. For a real explanation of anti social personality disorder I invite you to read the DSM-IV definition.
Basically someone with anti-social personality disorder is interested only in their own personal gratification. Everyone and everything else in the world is just an object to be used and/or manipulated in order to satisfy their whims. They have no conscience and no remorse. They are aware of the consequences of their actions, and just don't give a damn. That's a little more specific than "that ass hole who cut you off in traffic".
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Nobody is implying that Fantasy_Game => Criminality, except the readers. Actually what's being implied is Criminality & Fantasy_Game => Criminality, which of course is a valid argument.
No, the claim would be Criminality & Fantasy_Game => More Criminality - otherwise they might as well ban everything.
And no, it's not a valid argument.
The claim is also D&D => Gang structure. Also nonsense.
the argument a weak one: the preceding argument's conclusion does not need Fantasy Game to make the argument valid.
Yes, exactly. So there is no defence for the prison's POV.
I have rights, and I have the right to call people on their nonsense when they try to brand D&D as being related to gangs, and that it's a negative influence.
Would it be okay if the prison decided to ban reading the Bible? Imagine the uproar that would cause.
If you genuinely do have something wrong with your brain how accountable can you be held for your actions.
It makes sense to restrain someone who is dangerous to stop them from hurting themselves or others but actually setting out to punish someone for acting erratically and hurting people due to malfunctions in their brain seems about a sensible as beating my laptop for floating point errors.
It's not going to fix it and it's not going to prevent the problem from happening in future but it does vent your frustration.
It's just a very weird way to phrase it. Like people are board games or stand-up comedians or something.
... and then they built the supercollider.
OK - so assume your rules are implemented. What do you do if you get arrested? Or your children? Or your significant other? What if you get arrested but you're innocent, yet they don't figure that out for a while?
If you want to know how civilized a country is, see how they treat their prisoners.
In prisons there is also: "one [person] is denoted the [warden]... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other [people]... [which] mimics the organization of a gang."
The general definition of a gang of people being just a group with a leader is so general that every human on average probably could be considered to be in 5+ gangs.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I find that incarcerating violent lunatics does have a fairly strong preventive effect, but it does tend to wear off pretty quickly when you let them out.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Saving throw! Saving throw!
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
That's just a product of restraining them, it's the line between that and punishment that's where it gets messed up.
Prison is also supposed to rehabilitate.
And even if you think this is nonsense: Prison should under no circumstances produce better criminals.
While I don't relish the thought of a convicted murder or rapist ever feeling freedom again, not every inmate is in prison for Rape or Murder. There are several people in prison for lots of minor things. The idea behind prison served multiple purposes, to punish those for crimes committed, and to rehabilitate someone back into society. I can tell you, that for some people playing D & D is no picnic. For some it is a dull boring uneventful task in their lives.
Do we really want people behind bars to go absolutely insane from being incarcerated? OR would we rather have the prisoners learn something from their mistakes and maybe learn remorse and pay their debt to society quietly and peacefully.
For all those parents who have children and they've caught their child doing something that was against the rules of the house or even society, the parents generally punish them with grounding, and removing games/toys. But most out there don't take decks of cards away, or books to read, or strip a room down to a bed, sheets, a pillow and a bathroom stall. Of course not, that would be considered cruelity.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
As someone who was a long-time AD&D player who also worked for a time in a maximum security/close custody prison facility, my perspective may be a bit different from other who have replied here. In the prison environment, there are strict rules regarding fraternization among the incarcerated (prisoners/inmates). Often, there are limits on the number who may gather at one time, rules regarding proximity to others, and rules regarding communications. Inmates might not be allowed to carry stacks of personal papers or items from room to room. Any time inmates gather, it is suspect. Any time they are talking in hushed tones, it is suspect. Any time they are passing notes, it is suspect. Any talk of weapons or violoent actions puts the guards/officers at a heightened state of alert. Anything that might be viewed as gang-like behavior is suspect. Anything that could be viewed as cover for gang behavior is suspect.
Now, if you have been an AD&D player (or a player of any number of other RPG games), think about the dynamics of game play. Games often include more than two or three people. Players often carry a stack of papers (e.g., maps, character sheets, game manuals) to and from game sessions. The group might get loud, but some members of the group might have a secret side conversation with another player or the DM. Notes might need to be passed (e.g., "I want to pickpocket the baron", "I want to move into the shadows behind the paladin"). Table conversation will include various weapons and tactics. Althought talk of some medieval weapons could easily be discerned as fantasy (e.g., "I'll run him through with my halberd"), others could easily match a contemporary context (e.g., "I'll knife the guard while you try to get his keys"). Most groups with which I've played held the DM in high regard; it was as if the DM had his own cult following or at least a lot of resepect. That behavior, to the untrained observer, would appear to mimic some gang behavior. Prison guards have no way of knowing if such a behavior is just a game, overt gang activity, or a game being used to hide gang activity. To strive for safety and control, they must err toward interpreting events as the worst possible scenario.
If you are an RPG player, think through things that were said around your game table, and try to imagine hearing them as a prison guard or corrections officer. How might you interpret them?
People who really got into their game playing often would talk about the game anywhere and everywhere. Can you imagine a guard in a lunchroom overhearing AD&D players discussing a plan to escape the tower by feigning illness before attacking the guards when they come to investigate? Can you imagine players discussing plans to dig an (in-game) escape tunnel while having recreation time in the yard? The game could easily be used as a veil to allow the player to communicate real escape plans out in the open while the rest of the facility thinks they are just a bunch of RPG geeks. I can't say I fully agree with the decision to bar AD&D, but I can say that I understand the reasoning behind the decision.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Better chance of this working on Thompson than Doyle. Good luck.
If you want to be one of them deal with the BS associated with the label and your associates.
Unless you're a 20-stone U.S. American living in your mother's basement and fantasising about Natalie Portman and hot grits (whatever they are) you ought to be aware of the stupidity of generalisation, Mr Anonymous Coward. If you do fit that stereotype then I wonder whether you would agree with the statement, which you can certainly find people making, that all North Americans are murdering Christian imperialists.
The fact that I cut out part of your sentence doesn't change the fact that you applied "probably don't qualify as 'human' in the first place" to "most people in prison". You're entitled to your opinion that some people are unworthy of being part of our species but that doesn't mean I'm wrong for pointing it out.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
It's time to play Pathfinder!
The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
Mostly what caught my eye is the absurdity of "D&D has a dungeonmaster who gives orders, which is like a gang" rationale.
Seconded. You could rephrase that as "D&D has a dungeonmaster who gives orders, which is like the job they'll have when they eventually get out".
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
"that all North Americans are murdering Christian imperialists."
We are judged by the people we choose to represent us... and we seem to choose murdering Christian imperialists.
It's much less unfair than some seem to think.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
What do you do if you get arrested?
I won't be arrested. I am over halfway through my life and I haven't been arrested, because I don't break the law. What makes you think I will be arrested?
Or your children?
I won't be happy about it, but I've taught them right from wrong. What they do with their lives is their own problem.
Or your significant other?
Same as me - she's my age and hasn't ever been arrested. Why do you think suddenly she will be?
What if you get arrested but you're innocent, yet they don't figure that out for a while?
Ahhh finally the whole meat of the bleeding heart argument. How about I take the opposite position? Let's turn loose every single murderer in prison because one of them might be innocent.
Honestly, I would take my chances with a "less than perfect" justice system that offers greater deterrence rather than have career criminals laughing at the current system, and revolving door prisons. And, as Terry Pratchett once said, the death penalty combines the maximum deterrence with the minimum chance of recurrence.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Oh GOD no.
Don't expose such a basically harmless, innocent lot as PRISONERS to the inmates of Slashdot!
We want them coming out socialized, not brutalized!
ITs obvious the Lawyers, Warden and Judge have never played D&D.
DM: So there have been some incursions by a rival gang into your territory. You should go kill them and make an example out of them.
Player #1: What about the old mines outside town I heard there might be a lost treasure there.
DM: That's way outside your territory, if you leave, the rival gang would take it as a sign of weakness, move in and claim even more of your turf.
Player #2: That's ok, there hasn't been much to do here, its just a starting area we were going to have to leave soon anyway.
Player #3: I vote we go to the mines.
Player #4: So are we ordering Pizza or Chinese food?
DM: I'd split a pizza.
Players 1-6: Chinese it is.
Player #3: Did we level last time?
Player #2: I'm buying provisions for the trip to the mines.
Player #1: Don't forget rope, and torches.
DM: Sigh, you don't find any rope or torches. Through your contacts you hear the rival gang seems to have been hording supplies for some kind expedition, maybe you should investigate.
Player #2: GM's railroading us again.
Player #4: Why do we even bother to show up or roll dice? maybe you should just tell us what happens.
Wrong. Beeing in prison is about BOTH of it. And in addition, it's also about receiving training on how to fit into a mainly non-criminal society.
Precisely. And what better training for fitting into mainstream society than D&D?
Mainstream-mainstream! Not Slashdot-Mainstream for heavens sake!!
bickerdyke
My choice of "North American" there was deliberate. The stereotype may be applicable to some extent to the USA, but less so to Canadians, Mexicans, residents of St Pierre and Miquelon, and anyone else who might label themselves as North Americans, since there isn't unanimous agreement on what constitutes North America.
I openly admit to not reading ALL comments prior to posting this, but.... I think the top level posters so far are missing the real issue here. These people are in Jail for a reason. Let's not treat them to things they do not deserve.
Jail should be a place to serve a sentance and to hopefully let the the criminals reflect on their crime and hopefully learn a lesson. It SHOULDN'T be a place where criminals get to hang out and play board games. That's just ridiculous. Yes, D&D and any other aformentioned board games are harmless, but enabling someone to have fun in a place of punishment is just downright absurd. I know people who have been to jail, and while they say it was absolutely no fun at all, their behavior after their sentance really didn't change.
The system is broken. We can't let people forget the reason they're being punished...
If they are not treated to any entertainment at all, they will become depressed and kill themselves. Clearly, this is not the intention of jail either, is it?
You assume a lot here. First you assume that they will become depressed. They may or may not, but speaking from my past experience in regards to my own bouts of depression, I have learned from my depression how to become a happier, more wholesome individual. Killing myself may have been an option, but I promise you the majority of depressed people don't just go kill themselves. And depressed or not, we can assume they're in jail for a reason. Good, feel bad about it. Ask yourself if doing what you did was worth the punishment...
I understand that you have some sort of sadistic need to see these people suffer, but there are limits to how you can treat people (yes, inmates are people too), both stemming from psychology and international law.
Now you're just name calling; a childish move. I wouldn't say not giving inmates entertainment is an act of treating people poorly. People need to learn from their mistakes, and if they're not, then the time, effort, and money to put them in jail in the first place was a waste of time, and they won't be any better of a person when they leave there.
I would create a sig, if only something of value could be said with just 120 chars.
...I guess we'd better pt a ban on the current way o running prisons. I mean, the Warden is tasked with giving orders to the Deputies and COs, right? That mimics gang behavior in the same way. And what about our government? Shall we ban that too, since we have the President who is tasked with giving orders to the various branches of govt., including the Armed Forces, which would also have to be banned because they each have the one joint chiefs of staff who directs the rest of the military branch, much like gang behavior.
I guess Ban America sums it up. Our entire social structure mimics gang behavior.
That seems to describe the majority of people born in the past 30 years...
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
I've played in small groups (2-3) and large groups (up to 15). The large groups can get unweildy at times, but those groups were typically a bunch of experienced college players who were undertaking massive adventures in a DM's own created world. Oftentimes, those sessions would go very long when there were massive battles (even under simple 1st ed. AD&D rules). Sometimes we would only get through one battle in a night (typically 4-6 hours). I preferred groups of not more than about 8 people, just to keep the game moving.
In a prison environment, the guards and the rule book(s) will define what is considered an allowable group size. Thus "big group" or "small group" are irrelevant in such situations. Either the behavior is allowed or it isn't.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Just hope that no one in your family is sent to jail because the judge wanted a kickback.
The slashdotter who is confined to his mothers basement with no social contact, is indeed a danger to the general public but ONLY if he were ever to leave. Since he won't, there is no danger.
The prisoner however WILL sooner or later be released and staying in jail is not an option, even for prisoners who want to.
So, you got to deal with this prisoner on the street.
And it HAS been proven that solitary confinement screws people up. You lock up criminals, and they get out worse then they ever were going in, and that is saying something since it ain't the pot smokers who are put in solitary.
You got two options (and personally I incline to the second of my suggestions)
1: You treat people humanely and educate them to become better people.
2: If they are or become a threat, then throw away the key.
Both however cost a lot of money.
Part of the problem is that we look at jail the wrong way. We think that it should EITHER rehabilitate OR punish OR keep them of the street. But you can't do it all at ONCE. So instead you should do it in sequence.
Person is awaiting trial: Decent, hotel like conditions for those who behave, solitary for those who don't, after all, innocent until proven guilty. You don't want someone who is not convicted to be turned into a criminal.
Person convincted: They start with the punishment part of the sentence. Say 10 years, then they are locked up on a decent but not nice environment with few if any principles. Over time, the prisoner can show which way he wants to go, behave, he gets switched to better conditions and can start the second part of his sentence early. Behave badly, and the prison becomes harsher and time is added.
Punishment part over: the prisoner has served his time, now it is time to rehabilitate, education and learning to function in a society and this INCLUDES NOT demanding respect. Nobody gets respect in our society and an ex-con doing some deadend job better be prepared to deal with it or he is going to get back into trouble and you best prepare them with in jail, because outside it is far to easy to stray. And all the time, it is the carrot and the stick method, and since for an con the carrot is very small, it better be a really big stick. During this period, the prisoner can work for a decent wage, but not spend his money.
Release: extended tracking, the earned money is used to arrange housing, and other necessities. It sounds like a punishment to work for pennies but if you put a thief out on the street with 0 cash, how is he going to get money? Geez, that is a hard one. Let him earn the money to get back on his feet during the rehabilitation period.
Safety: For the prisoner who isn't suited to be rehabilitated, continued imprisonment suited to the reason he can't be released. Prisons are increasingly the mental institutions of a country. Somebody might just be to insane to be released, not their fault. Think a pedo. Can lead a fine life, as long as their is a thick wall between him and any kids. Farm prisons for those who are unsuited to be released but not directly a danger to themselves or other WITHIN a prison. For the uncontroloably violent, high security prisons, geared to handle each prisonor always alone in the same way dangerous animals are handled. Humane, but with absolute control.
Such a system would work far better. You can't just lock people up, upset their entire lifes, force them to life by the violent laws of a prison and then just kick them out and expect things to turn out better. But the system would cost a lot and require us to ask ourselves: What are we releasing back into the streets.
I am not a bleeding heart, I think the death penalty is under-used as are life sentences. But we should more clearly seperate prisoners into those who can be released back with the right help AND then give them that help and those who simply can't.
Ah well, to get back slightly on topic: I think those playing D&D are the least of your problems. Anyone who
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If the incarcerated gamers switch from playing D&D to playing Call of Cthulu, do you suppose that they could be so hardcore CoC as to make a religious freedom claim?
How many crimes have been committed by criminals who do weight lifting and body building in prisons? Have they banned weights and restricted everybody to yoga?
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Actually, it is because criminals are getting smarter and getting away with more.
Remind me to tell you how to keep elephants away.
They don't have a full set of rights any more, but they do still have a right to be free from completely arbitrary and irrational governmental activity.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Court Upholds Prison Ban of Dungeons & Dragons
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/us/27dungeons.html?hpw
"speaking only for myself since 1957"
I mean, think about it. I'm certain that, if you look at the stats, the number of prisoners who have been playing D&D at some point of time in their life has been steadily increasing for the last two decades or so. Clearly, this is no coincidence.
Now excuse me, I need to check similar stats for video games. I suspect the share of crimes committed under their influence has been steadily growing lately, too. ~
And even if you think this is nonsense: Prison should under no circumstances produce better criminals.
Absolutes like that just don't work in reality. Any improvement in a criminals general aptitude theoretically makes them a more cunning criminal, just as it makes them a more functional citizen. It's unrealistic to think that the two are so distinct.
The citizens that turn to crime are usually those too unintelligent or uneducated to see that even from a purely selfish perspective, serious crimes are almost always a stupid choice.
By your logic, our leaded-gasoline years should have been accompanied by a corresponding drop in crime. For a few years our population collectively dropped a few IQ points, and thus became less apt, criminally and otherwise, yet crime didn't diminish or even remain steady, it skyrocketed.
In the end, I feel like (of the the criminals that could actually be effected) we have to choose between producing a few cleaver and educated criminals, or ten times as many stupid ones.
Consider this: you are driving, and summoned to stop. It just so happens to be that the cops are corrupt and have to make their monthly quota. One of 'm plants a baggie in your vehicle, and you go off to the Tent Camp. It doesn't even have to be about corrupt cops if you think this is implausible.
Here's the trick though: death penalty doesn't offer greater deterrence per se.
Terry Pratchett writes satire. Errors (which are made a-plenty) can never, ever be righted again. But do continue your belief in your own infallibility and the absolute correctness of the justice system, because these are all disgusting liberal bleeding hearted links, and I'm obviously very much misguided, being a subject in the People's Republic of Europe.
I'm sure everything would've been right if they just would've manned up.
And comedic authors laying in England distributing pithy thought-terminating cliches* are no basis for a system of government**!
[*though in Terry's case they are in fact usually pithy thought-inducing cliches, and because of that I'd not assume that anything he said was a recommendation for something without further context than you have provided... actually I'd tend to presume the opposite and work from there]
[**which, being built by (a) humans and (b) committees, and run by (c) bureacracts and (d) politicians, should be presumed imperfect - if not insane - and given as little authority to wield deadly force as is still pragmatic to get away with in a world full of the things]
Why not ban any type of game that has a ruler/leader type. Including any game that has it's own set of rules because it can be claimed that they are following a gang's creed.
Intestinate Joh^W^W^W Homer Simpson.
I am so very sorry for alluding to that movie.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
All good software developers learn to refactor towards generalizations:
Is there a bunch of people running around saying a some digital pictures are the true and perfect images of Mars?
Play Command HQ online
You present a non sequitur. First of all, that's not what I said. Only around 3% of the general population have anti social personality disorder. Secondly I made no comparison to other countries. However Up to 80% of prison populations have this disorder (the cited article says 75%, in med school I learned 80%). This is logical since the people who commit the crimes are more likely to be caught and sent to prison, so you will end up with a concentrating effect of the disorder in the prison population. No one said "American", and I don't have comparative data for other countries around the world. However it would be reasonable to assume that there's nothing special about "Americans" in particular, and similar statistics must exist in other countries.
Let me clarify what I meant. The U.S. has an incarceration rate of ~7.5 person per thousand, my country has ~0.5 person per thousand. The murder rate in the US is 0.043 pr 1000 and in my country 0.011 pr 1000. Rape is 0.30 per thousand in the US compared to 0.09 pr thousand in my country.
So unless you believe the percentage of people with antisocial personality disorders(let's call it ASPD) is more than a factor 10 larger in the US than here, ASPD cannot be an overshadowing reason for crime. It is just as likely that putting people in prison gives them ASPDs, and that is why you get an 80% number.
And even though your incarceration rate is though the roof, you still have a much higher crime rate for violent crimes. My point is that while personally satisfying our revenge instinct is pleasant, it is not in general society's interest. It is cheaper rehabilitating people and making them a productive part of society than punishing them. Plus, punishment seems to have very little effect on recidivism.
It must be societies first interest to reduce violent crime and stop repeat offenders, not satisfying the victims. The crime has been committed and it can never be undone, but our goal must be to try to prevent it in the future.
Yet another one these dummies...
Why don't they try to know what's the game about and its mechanisms instead of listening to the ill-advised advice of other dummies like themselves?
If they had did that they would have realized that the DM has absolutely *nothing* to do with a gang leader, being more like the god of the imaginary world where the game takes place. Thinking about it, it could be that their god is like a gang leader and thus... Oh well...
--
El Guerrero del Interfaz
Well, just that.
We all know that the anti-RPG hysterical craze was based on fundamentalist religious craziness. And now they call it "rational"? Yeah, right, just as creationism, geocentrism, flat-earthism, homophobia,etc.
--
El Guerrero del Interfaz
Their worried their going to have learn D&D in order to understand the new "code words" the gangs will start using to talk about stuff and they won't understand what's being said. Nope, they can't have that!
[Now, I'm off to lift my le... Um, visit... at another place.]