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Google Readying To Pull Out of China
Sagelinka writes "Both Google and the Chinese government appear to be leaking word that the search firm may soon shutter its operations there as negotiations between the two break down. Google first threatened to halt its operations in China after disclosing in January that an attack on its network from inside China was aimed at exposing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. At the time, Google also said it was reconsidering its willingness to censor search results of users in China as required by the government. 'I think Google thought China would be flexible,' said Rob Enderle, an analyst with the Enderle Group. Google has since been negotiating with the Chinese government to find a way to continue operating in the country. Google did not respond today to requests for comment on the state of the negotiations with China."
Good. Google should never have made that devil's bargain in the first place.
After all, Microsoft never signed a 'do no evil' clause.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
and I'm sure Microsoft and Yahoo will be more than willing to fill in any gaps...
Frankly, I'm suprised Chinese officials didn't have any Google employees executed over this.
I think this is only posturing on Google's part. While China isn't a huge profit machine right now for them, access to 1.3B Internet users will be a big deal down the road.
If they step aside, they will only be opening the door for the growth of Bing. Since search is probably 99% of their income, giving way to a competitor is not something they want to be doing.
I highly doubt Google folds up shop in China.
Has a major player like Google ever completely abandoned a country before?
It should be interesting to see what kind of effect this has on Google, I doubt there will be a major change in China over this.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
"I think Google thought China would be flexible," said Rob Enderle, an analyst with the Enderle Group.
My opinion is that the CEO, Eric Schmidt, differs from the young idealism of Larry Page and Sergey Brin. I do not mean that either side of this leadership is right or wrong but instead simply that they have different motivations. Brin's past has come up before as a source for this (seemingly) new found anti-censorship campaign.
... and I think everyone involved knows it. Until you tell me that Google.cn is dead and I go to the site and confirm it, I will not believe for a second this is possible.
... and that's it. Pesky ideals and ethics have no place in corporate America. Step aside. It's the safest path to churn out tons of cash. They're walking away from too much money and market to pull out of China. It would be bad for stocks and any investors would flip out ... probably even sue.
Google's leadership is conflicted. Brin & Page see the ethics of the situation most important because their motivation seems to be less devoted to money. It certainly seemed to be an exercise in indexing when they started "Google." Schmidt, however, owes his allegience to the shareholders. Or at least feels the pull and responsibility of profit more so than any sort of ethical dilemma. And that's why he was put in that position: to keep investors investing. And, honestly, this last point is why I think this 'removal' is nothing but a rumor or a bluff. Because money is one of the most important things to Google. I don't think the young idealism will stand up to stock prices
Brin and Page's cashing out is really just symbolic of what's already happened at Google. Their motivations are like any other company's. Some of it is about the customer and some of it is about profit
My work here is dung.
Who cares about China. Seriously.
1.3 billion people.
> 'I think Google thought China would be flexible,' said Rob Enderle, an analyst with the Enderle Group.
And I think you're an idiot Robert. If there is one word NO ONE in the West would use to describe the Chinese government, it is 'flexible'.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Abstinence is the only 100% method to prevent pregnancy. The pull out technique doesn't work. I hope China was on the Pill.
that number is really good when used two ways.
1) To sell people on the idea of possible market places
2) When trying to dilute negative actions by the government on a per capita basis, like how they claim to be very environmentally friendly on a per capita basis.
I do find it humorous all the people mentioning that Bing(MS)/Yahoo will go as they have no morals, I wonder how many read about the story in angst while using products wholly or partially made in China.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
While China isn't a huge profit machine right now for them, access to 1.3B Internet users will be a big deal down the road.
Android will probably keep Google in the Chinese market and generate targeted advertising revenue in some manner.
Maybe former Google.cn employees will find themselves pressured into giving away Google's trade secrets to the Chinese government.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Yeah Google may pull out of China, but there's no way in hell they'll just turn away over a BILLION customers (or advertisers' customers).
They'll just open a subsidiary in China and operate within the law.
There: do no evil under your own brand name.
Will Google stop buying stuff from China.
The Nexus 1 is made by HTC probably in China.
The iPhone and most of Apples products are made in China so no Google isn't alone.
We as a nation need to stop sending our money to China. How about it Google. Take that big monster pile of cash and build some factories in the US.
Start making phones and motherboards in the US again. Would you pay $10 more for a Google Motherboard built in Iowa or Idaho over an Asus built in China if it was the same quality?
Think of it Google you could pay workers in the US that would then spend that money in the US and buy stuff made in the US "hopefully"
How about not just trying to not be evil but trying to be good?
On a more cynical note. Google isn't making a lot of money in China, odds are the Chinese search engine is benefiting from stolen Google tech will get government support, and they could leverage that tech to start going head to head with Google in world markets.
So they have nothing really to loose by bailing out of China.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
So, 20% of the world's population doesn't affect the other 80%?
You're right that other places have a tighter cultural connection, but you can only ignore an elephant in the room for so long. Google may only be a mouse, but that's enough to make the elephant pretty mad.
What money? People keep talking about China as if it is some huge source of profit for google. It is not. Google has a few side startups but its main business, advertising is NOT present in China. There are some chinese advetisers but they advertise OUTSIDE China.
The amount of revenue is around 300 million dollar. A pathetic amount and that is revenue, not profit.
The MBA's have long since declared China as some kind of holy grail, were the streets are made of gold and profits just happen. But it just ain't turning out that way.
For europeans, the US of A was much the same. Oh if we can only launch our product over there, we will have it made. Forget, if you are big in Holland then a flea can squash you in the US. You are nothing. Do 10 miljoen euro's and you will be a tiny blip as a Humvee drives over you. Conquer the german market, go south to france. Not instantly across the ocean, with insane transportation costs, gap in working hours, cultural differences.
Google did have long term plans for China, but they might be wondering that with the little result so far, it is actually worth the hassle.
And I think China might be bluffing as well. If Google moves out, they might not loose all that much, but others could start to examine their own future in China.
In itself, it is not unusual for a company to rethink its activities in a region.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
It's also good news for Microhoo. Google, as a publicly traded company, only has the obligation to make a profit for shareholders regardless of their "Do no evil" hooey which, let's face it, once you're publicly traded becomes more of a guideline than a rule. Really, Google wants to increase their market share just like anyone else.
I seriously doubt that they will pull out of China and are just sabre rattling although sabre rattling with the Chinese government is a losing proposition. Microhoo and Baidu should be thanking Google if they indeed pull out but I highly doubt they will. They could always change their motto to "we do less evil than everyone else", then they could stay. It's a more realistic motto anyway.
Who cares about China. Seriously.
I'll bite. I care about China. I care about that one sixth of the world's population developing and coming out of poverty. To a lesser extent, I care about them becoming a serious player in the world market. Right now they play with their money and disrespect their work force beyond belief. It might not make you feel bad to pick up some piece of electronics at Walmart for $20 but I do feel bad when I see "Made in China" and have to think about the health problems the workers might develop ... the environmental damage the plant might create ... the plant's drinking water problems from the lead ... the list goes on. In order to solve these problems, people have to be unafraid to speak up. People need a method for improving these conditions -- however slowly it might come. They don't have that. Removing government censorship mandates is one step toward that. Yeah it's a slow process and it might not seem like much to you but it is to me.
These are topics much closer to home with a much greater impact on us.
I've tried to shake the "East Versus West" mentality as much as possible, it's sad to see it lingers on in some form. All countries are members of the world. Just because one country speaks the same language you do and has the same form of government you do shouldn't make it anymore or less important to you than another country with differences. China's population might even make it more important than Australia to me. You seem to have some very strange misconceptions about allegiances to countries that are disconnected from you. They hold no domain over you whether they're Australia or China. I certainly expect more of my representatives than to say "it's written into law in Australia, it should be in our law here." This "because everyone else is doing it" does not suffice as an argument where I live. Look at the Scandinavian nations that have taken different routes on copyright. It's okay to have different laws in different countries.
What a bunch of Google execs will do with a handful of employees in China... not so much.
I would wager that the precedent this public display sets will have far more implications for you (and what you consume) than Australia's "Think of the Children" campaign.
My work here is dung.
>>>Who cares about China. Seriously.
"We will no longer be loaning either the US or EU any more money. Furthermore we've decided it's time to collect our 5 trillion in loans. If you don't have the money, we'll be happy to take Alaska and Spain as payment instead."
Yeah. Who cares about China?
Don't affect us at all!
(rolls eyes)
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Google Readying To Pull Out of China
Get ready for the money shot!
Carbon based humanoid in training.
Yeah, but those 20% ain't making the kind of progress you would expect to keep interacting with them.
I don't care if the elephant has lasers and homing missles strapped to its back... if the elephant keeps farting in the room when its inappropriate, eventually you won't want it in the room.
Its not like google didn't attempt a rational conversation about responsibility and propriety. They did. The chinese said they won't...
Firstly, how hard would it have been to not click the title that clearly shows this is about Google in China if you don't care?
Secondly, many people feel developments like this are important. It's incredibly hard to predict with any accuracy what will be important geopolitically any distance into the future, but the belief that China will play an increasingly prominant role is pretty well founded.
So Google should be more careful, China could still get pregnant?
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
You think they'd take Florida, New Jersey, New York City, Washington DC, and California instead of Alaska?
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
"Come on, China! You used to be cool!" Expecting an oppressive regime to be flexible is usually a precept to disappointment.
"I'm not a quack, I'm a mad scientist! There's a difference." - Dr. Cockroach
Thanks, now i'll have the image of a flatulent, heavily armored elephant with me the rest of the day.
Advice to Google:
Don't spend too much time "readying" to pull out. I've made that mistake too many times, and the child support payments are killing me!
Could a lawsuit have merit when Google's motto is do no evil?
Google's motto may be "do no evil" but Google also gets to decide what constitutes "evil". Its really just a marketing / public relations tag line. One should not expect the ethics and sensibilities of company founders to endure in a corporation. Anyone think HP is run as Mr. Hewlett and Mr. Packard envisioned?
That's all well and good except for every lawyer's favorite word: Precedent.
When, and sadly it's looking more and more like when rather than if, the western governments start stepping up the level of access they want to google's data, Google can pull out that giant trump card of calling said government's policies socialist and horrifyingly invasive, taking a moral (and populist) stand against the evils government oppression by comparing said government to China. (while conveniently forgetting the whole argument about whether or not it's safe for a private company to have the same data...)
(For the record, that's legitimately socialist, not the "Obamacare == teh socialists!!!111eleventyone!")
Now, is Google ever going to pull out of the US? or a similar market? I highly doubt it. But the precedent is there; Play nice or fuck off. I also feel like Google's walking away from a market where they aren't really that strong, and probably won't every really be that strong, to begin with. Baidu is supposedly the bee's knees over there, and they seem to have no problem cooperating with the government. Google probably wasn't ever going to take that stance, so they get to take a nice parting potshot as they go.
Besides, there are a billion or so folks in India who've got at least a slightly more tolerable government, and there are a couple hundred million Brazilians that are stepping up into a nice middle class as well. Perhaps, just perhaps, China may not be the be-all end-all of "emerging markets." If the internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it, then it would appear business can do the same thing with uncooperative governments.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
But that's an image I cheerfully look forward to pondering on for the rest of my day.
Let me be the first to welcome our flatulent, heavily armored, ozone destroying elephant overlords!
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Chinese Gov: you have to censor, it is the law.
Google: ok we follow the law, you dont interfere with our operation
Chinese Gov: ok.
Google: Somebody hacked us
Chinese police: we dont know what you are talking about and we dont investigate
Google: that is not nice, we know its something semi-official
Chinese Gov: maybe, we dont know nothing
No, seriously. If you cant rely that the police will investigate some crime which endangers your operation, you leave a country. Even if the guy who hacked hacked for a private purpose *profit* but is utouchable because he may be linked to the gov or the police, you leave.
The lie underneath all of this is that China is claiming that Google will be denying website access to all Chinese in the People's Republic of China.
Last I checked, Google was available to anyone. If China doesn't let its people use Google, that's their decision.
but whatever their reasons are for leaving (either humanitarian or because they got hacked)
One would hope these reasons had something to do with it, but I'm inclined to think the limited market share verse cost has something to do with it as well. Google China is a huge money pit for Google, and they can always return at a later date.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Also, hundreds of millions of Wal-Mart shoppers.
*This recycled post Al Gore approved.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Alaska has real wealth (oil, coal, uranium).
It's also easy to reach from China, and separate from the U.S. mainland.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If you work in manufacturing, do your country a favor and leave your union. If only everyone would do that, we could restart US manufacturing again.
IT is not unionized, and I hope it will never be.
Although it no longer may be the case, China has historically been extremely insular toward the rest of the world. It's only been during the past century that any sort of trade or interaction with the west has occurred at a significant level.
So, yes. There was actually a time when that statement could have been true. (I don't really have a point here -- just that your statement isn't quite as outlandish as you might think it is. If trade with the west breaks down, proves unsustainable for China, or is effected by some major world event, we could very well see the country turn introverted again.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Everytime _I_ buy something that says made in China, I think that the $1 that 13 year old girl got for making the logic board was $1 she didn't get by being a child prostitute. Or I think, that $1 will be better than the $0 she would have gotten doing subsistance farming and flood management, like her ancestors have done nearly unchanged for the last 6000 years.
The best way to lift the Chinese out of the mess they are in is the injection of outside capital, and the US has been playing a large role in that.
But that capital has to make its way into the hands of normal people. Government-to-government aid never does this, it's why our aid to Africa continues to prop up horrible governments and makes hte people worse, rather than better.
To the extent that us buying chinese made goods pays wages to the common man in China, that's a positive infusion of cash into that economy.
The rub, as you rightly point out, is the degree to which the government suppresses the inevitable desire for the newely emerging affluent and middle classes of Chinese to demand better conditions. When they come to see the government as an impediment between them and what is next, and have a history of work and accomplishment [and change] behind them, they will increasingly force the issue of improving their lot, both individually and collectively. And the government will have to continue to loosen its grip and respond if it wants to remain legitimate.
But the money has to be there first.
The US consumer is paying the way for China to become a free people and an economic super power.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
>>>Who cares about China. Seriously.
"We will no longer be loaning either the US or EU any more money. Furthermore we've decided it's time to collect our 5 trillion in loans. If you don't have the money, we'll be happy to take Alaska and Spain as payment instead."
Yeah. Who cares about China? Don't affect us at all! (rolls eyes)
Dear China, how about you take France and Texas instead? That way we both win! ;p
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
Yeah, but it's also nice to be able to recognize the shills and nutters. Whenever I read a report or analysis written by Enderle, Lyons or Didio I immediately consider the opposite of whatever they claim might be true. Whenever I hear anything written by O'Gara I assume it's outlight lies and spin.
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
>>>Who cares about China. Seriously.
"We will no longer be loaning either the US or EU any more money. Furthermore we've decided it's time to collect our 5 trillion in loans. If you don't have the money, we'll be happy to take Alaska and Spain as payment instead."
Yeah. Who cares about China?
Don't affect us at all!
(rolls eyes)
Haha, like they could take any european or US territory. MAD still exists, and that not only goes for the nukes: as the old saying goes if you can't pay back a $100 dollar loan you've got a problem but if you can't pay back a billion dollar loan the bank has a problem. Why do you think they've been buying up commodities left and right with a small part of those treasuries ? Besides if they stop their industry by no longer exporting to us they're stuck with a billion out of work and hungry people with nothing to do but to contemplate the difference between them and the party officials. No we're all in the same (currently very leaky) boat.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
(For the record, that's legitimately socialist, not the "Obamacare == teh socialists!!!111eleventyone!")
The fact that socialism is used as a scare tactic does not change the fact that national health care would, in fact, be a socialist thing to have. I disapprove of the scare tactics, but it's just as bad to pretend that red is green just because people automatically think red is bad.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Schmidt, however, owes his allegience to the shareholders. Or at least feels the pull and responsibility of profit more so than any sort of ethical dilemma.
It's not about whether he understands the ethical dilemma or not. As the CEO of a public company, he is obliged, not just out of a sense of responsibility, but he is legally obliged to go after profits. There are plenty of historic court cases that make it quite clear to CEOs that if shareholders bring a lawsuit for failure to act first and foremost to generate profits, the CEO is the one who will lose. There are ways Schmidt can justify exiting China to shareholders, but if some activist shareholder gets in a lather and goes after Schmidt for putting ideals above profits, he'll have to defend himself.
This is part of the reason why "do no evil" is such an absurd claim for a public company to make. It's a great idea, but when push comes to shove, "do no evil" loses to "make money".
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I call bullsh*t. Union membership has been going down for years.
Starting a company does not automatically create a union - the people working there must vote one in. As the labor relations folks here have said - a company gets the union it deserves. Treat the workers decently and they will NOT want to form a union as there will be no need.
If it was all unions, why have so many jobs left the so called "right to work" states where one doesn't have those pesky union issues?
Manufacturing left the US chasing cheap/slave labor as well as lax or no labor safety laws. People move this along buying cheap/disposable rather that looking for quality.
I am sure it is possible to build decent quality items in China - but that is NOT the reason anybody makes things there.
"So, 20% of the world's population doesn't affect the other 80%?"
I don't know about you and your Google stock, but personally, I don't give a shit if they use Veronica on Lynx instead of Google on Firefox.
Where did the mean that idealism means poverty come from?
This isn't a conflict between profit and idealism. It's a conflict between near term and long term profits.
In the near term, if Google compromises it'll profit now. But if Google compromises, they'll ultimately lose profit.
If you have a reputation for not compromising, governments won't even try. Once you have one exception for one government, it's impossible to justify not having other exceptions for all governments. And if you're compromising all over the place, compromising to quasi-government bodies like the RIAA is inevitable.
Google holds *a lot* of personal data, so if that personal data is essentially public, people will not trust Google with their personal data. Google's loss of trust means loss of customers, and ultimately a loss of profit.
You read my mind. "Do no evil" is a good mantra for Google, but it also means they will lose business in China, and somebody else will gain a virtually monopoly as the "default" search engine - namely Microsoft. So come 2020 we'll have a divided world where Google is the #1 search engine in America/Europe and MS Bing will be #1 in China and its protectorates.
The whole 'do no evil' mantra is a brilliant bit of PR. Sure, they might lose out on some business in China, but if Google is leaving China because they wish to 'do no evil', isn't the implication that anyone replacing them 'doing evil'?
Bing is no Google. They only have market share because they have MS's bankroll backing them. It is yet another MS 'me too' attempt at playing catch up with a market that that blazed past them.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Only if they agree to take Palin along in the deal....and no sneaking her back in like the rest of the Chinese illegals in the U.S.
I don't mind that stuff is made in china, not all of it is bad. In fact only 1/8th of stuff is bad and it doesn't matter what country it came from. I'm all for the development of China but their government needs to go about things differently.
It seems that Google can't win. Either they make a deal with the devil as SputnikPanic puts it, or they behave ethically and attract savage criticism from armchair quarterbacks everywhere.
Google has a corporate culture of idealism, no doubt fed by the youthfulness of its top executives and much of its staff. Beyond that, they have traditionally been a good corporate citizen, giving a lot of their work back to the community by open sourcing it.
They created the Android phone operating system to be an open alternative to the various proprietary systems. Anyone can take it and run with it. A whole menagerie of excellent smart phones has emerged with Google technology at their core.
Almost all of Google's apps--search, email, scholar, news, maps, voice, and on and on--are free to use, usually in exchange for mild ad text and aggregated use data.
Google gets it. They do things right. They reward innovation, they encourage creativity. They are the epitome of a great American company.
Therefore, to top off their greatness by refusing to deal with a censoring, dissident-hacking corrupt communist-only-in-name dictatorship is both admirable and gutsy and uniquely American. If only all American companies operated on principles rather than pure greed, think what a better society we would have, and a better world.
I feel duty-bound to support Google in whatever ways I can. Right now it's my Nexus One phone, my gmail, and when I have some spare cash I'll buy a few shares of stock. Go, Google! Show those arrogant turds that at least a few Americans still believe in freedom over profit.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
... that giant trump card of calling said government's policies socialist ... ... (For the record, that's legitimately socialist, not the "Obamacare == teh socialists!!!111eleventyone!") ...
FWIW, in most of the world Socialist is not such an synonym for Evil that it is in the US : it's much more understandable to everyone to pull out the giant trump card of calling said government's policies totalitarian, or a police state. After all that's the root of the problem.
Apart from that, I'm in total agreement.
Except products have a way of getting duplicated in China. Knock-off hardware will appear very quickly, and at a much cheaper price. Even the software will be the same or very close. Even good products have a hard time competing in China.
Since Android is open source isn't duplication and derivation expected and perfectly fine?
Just because one country speaks the same language you do and has the same form of government you do shouldn't make it anymore or less important to you than another country with differences.
Why? What is the reason you feel my value system should work that way?
Anything short of Google exiting China completely would just emphasize China's stance that they can censor anyone, any time -- and even the USA will bow to their demands, when push comes to shove.
It's irrelevant if "Bing takes their place", really. This isn't about Bing or Microsoft right now. It's about Google and how THEY will react to being told by a nation how to run a search engine.
If and when Microsoft opportunistically steps in and offers to do what Google refused to do, THEN it will be about Microsoft. We can cross that bridge when we come to it.
We all have to remember that China is probably the last remaining "empire" - until very recently (historically), they've been nothing but a feudal civilization, dominated by emperors from afar. It's going to take a generation or two to evolve to something like what Hong Kong enjoyed under British colonial rule.
Pulling out has always worked for me..
Over 90% of that 20% are still out in rice fields. The notion that China is some El Dorado with untold riches and untapped markets is total crap. The Chinese work on the principle that you can invest but they want it all for themselves. If Microsoft think they're going to get Bing anywhere there then they're badly mistaken, but then, they have to try anything with Bing right now.
They're diversifying their portfolio, which is a normal part of being billionaires. Look up Bill Gates for instance - the guy has been selling shares of Microsoft for decades now, on a schedule.
And yes, they do care about profit, but I challenge you to find a single other company who would have the balls to leave $500M on the table and walk away with ethics being the sole major driving force behind the decision. For that, Google has my deep respect, and I hope others would appreciate this move too.
>>>Who cares about China. Seriously.
"We will no longer be loaning either the US or EU any more money. Furthermore we've decided it's time to collect our 5 trillion in loans. If you don't have the money, we'll be happy to take Alaska and Spain as payment instead."
Yeah. Who cares about China? Don't affect us at all! (rolls eyes)
Ok I hear this all the time that China owns tons of T Bills and yes they do but they cannot just call us and say they want the money now. Just like your mortgage company cannot call and say we want to collect the 200,000 you owe us on your mortgage 10 years early.
The only recourse China has would be to dump the securities on the market which would drop the value and cause the government to raise rates or discount prices when selling Treasuries. Remember though if China did this the Trillions of Treasuries they own would be worth less and less which could sink them into major financial problems sort of like what happened on Wall Street from having assets that are sinking in value causing more institutions to sell.
So no China cannot hurt us financially unless they wish to really screw themselves
In theory, this is why China should care about Google:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/02/china-scientists-google/
Since no major American company is going to pull out of China right now if they're being responsible to their "shareholders", I see two possibilities:
1. Google is doing some hard bargaining, and we're seeing part of it.
2. The NSA is pulling Google's strings here as part of a security initiative.
If they stay in China then it's #1, if they actually pull out then it's #2.
The problem with being a totalitarian regime is that you can never, ever, let-up on that boot you have grinding-down upon the necks of the people, even if you want to.
Because the moment you do let-up, the people will stand up, and the next thing you know, you're hanging from a lamp post by a meat hook.
Regards;
What people don't seem to understand is that Google just doesn't want to censor. This doesn't mean that it doesn't want to sell cellphones in China or sell software if the government starts using Google Apps. It just means that Google doesn't want to censor. He can continue selling ads, He can continue selling phones, He can continue doing whatever it pleases, except censorship. And search isn't Google primary income, it's ads.
If a Chinese company makes a Nexus One knock-off with Android software, modified to strip out Google's name, advertising, and applications ... there's nothing left to keep Google in the Chinese market.
On the other hand, if they make the hardware and keep the software intact, it's a good thing for Google. But which do you think the government will encourage, if Google sticks to its guns?
I believe there is a third option. If Google is uncooperative a gov't may mandate the use of their revised version of Android. Branding may remain intact but search and advertising may be modified to comply with local laws and regulations.
very well said!
Hoodies that say "This is not the hoodie you are looking for" is ripe for geek fashion. Of course, only those resistant to Jedi mind powers would be able to find it.
"I'm not a quack, I'm a mad scientist! There's a difference." - Dr. Cockroach
Google pulls out of China - China not pregnant.
One of the reasons no one has mentioned yet is that Google's core algorithms and trade secrets could be stolen. Google just can't afford to lose their competitive advantage to industrial espionage. Having engineers in China is a big risk, as they are exposed to coercion by the government. Maybe their core search wizards are all located in Mountain View, CA, but having Chinese guys who tweak the algorithm for the Chinese market probably means that at least a few of them know the core technologies pretty well. Google gives away a lot of technology, but there's no chance that you're going to see them publishing their core algorithms. Having datacenters and engineering in China might be too much of a security risk as well as a moral risk.
How are they going to do that? Maybe they'll start by melting all guns into plows and burning all of their books? They can't really treat the rest of the world like they treat their own people. It doesn't work that way.
You're right that other places have a tighter cultural connection, but you can only ignore an elephant in the room for so long. Google may only be a mouse, but that's enough to make the elephant pretty mad.
Nice, you made Bad Analogy Guy's post look stupid AND in a form he can actually understand! ;)
"Rob Enderle, an analyst with the Enderle Group"
No, Rob Enderle is the Enderle Group.
Based on Rob's reporting history with companies like the SCO Group, Novell, IBM and Microsoft, I've long ago concluded he inhabits his own little fictional world.
This report is quoting quite heavily from Rob the Delusional. If he says Google is going, they're probably staying.
Sigh...if it has Chinese looking characters it must be from CHINA right!?
Let me introduce you to a place called Taiwan:
HTC Corporation, formerly High Tech Computer Corporation, is a Taiwan-based manufacturer of smartphones.
Foxconn is the trade name of the Taiwan based firm Hon Hai Precision Industry Co. (Ltd.). Foxconn is the largest manufacturer of electronics and computer components worldwide, and mainly manufactures on contract to other companies. Among other things, Foxconn produces the Mac mini, the iPod and the iPhone for Apple Inc.; Intel-branded motherboards for Intel Corp.; various orders for American computer manufacturers Dell and Hewlett-Packard; motherboards for UK computer manufacturer Zoostorm; the PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 for Sony; the Wii for Nintendo; the Xbox 360 for Microsoft, cell phones for Motorola, the Amazon Kindle, and Cisco equipment.
The company opened its first manufacturing plant in China in 1988, a factory in Shenzhen that is now the company's largest, with more than 270,000 employees.[3] Beginning in 1994, Foxconn purchased development centres in the United States and Japan. In 1997 and 1998, Foxconn established additional manufacturing plants in the UK and the US. As of 2007, the company and its subsidiaries owned plants in the Czech Republic, Hungary, Mexico, Brazil, India and Vietnam.
ASUSTeK Computer Incorporated (ASUS), a multinational corporation centered in Taiwan, produces computer products: motherboards, laptops, servers, mobile phones and others.
Sources: Wikipedia: HTC Corporation, Wikipedia: Foxconn, Wikipedia: Asus.
The bigger questions are, is Taiwan really part of China, and what percentage of iphone or whatever really is from China. For the first question the answer is maybe.
Ask a native Taiwanese and they will say Taiwan is definitely not China. Ask a native Chinese and they will say Taiwan is part of China. Here's why: "Upon losing the Chinese civil war in 1949, the ROC government retreated to Taipei, and kept control over a few islands along the coast of mainland China and in the South China Sea. The People's Republic of China (PRC) was established in mainland China on October 1, 1949, claiming to be the successor to the ROC."
For the second question, Foxconn does have plants in China. But it also owns plants in other parts of the world like Mexico. But even then you would have to go down to each component and trace it's place of manufacture because suppliers have their own manufacturing plants. But then again, Foxconn doesn't make HTC phones so I don't know how you get to blame Google for something Apple is contracting out.
I hope it is now all cloudy for you but I at least hope you won't say things are "probably" made in China.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
I think this is about four things:
- Sergei Brin being old enough to have lived in the Soviet Union. I think he just really doesn't like communist dictatorships.
- With this move they generate a lot of attention. It will make China look bad, which is a thing China cares about, see for example why they got the Olympics there. I think this gives the more liberal voices in the Chineese goverment a bit more air even if it might take a decade before we see any effects.
- If Microsoft or another competitor would move into China, they would get a lot of bad PR. Google has taken the initiative in an interesting PR war here, we'll see what the responses are.
- Google wants to be seen as an ethical company, just because they know so much about so many people. Part of this move is about showing that you're willing to protect your users' data. This will make people trust Google.
RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
I've had some experience with manufacturing in China from a previous job. In this particular rural factory's case, the primary work force was comprised of second sons, daughters, and basically anyone else who didn't inherit family land. The factory provides shelter, food, and entertainment. I'm not sure how many of our dollars end up in workers' pockets, but I'm fairly certain the Chinese Government isn't anywhere near the top of the list preventing them from achieving what we might call the American Dream.
Above the workers, though, are the educated engineer and manager types. The factory owners and managers are Chinese, and I got the impression that they walked the political game in order to achieve their higher social status. The government wants factories (especially to deal with the tremendous number of potential workers), and the owners are in a position to benefit from that. I don't imagine we'd catch them going out on a limb to push for reform. Still, these were kind people who treated their workers well.
A lot of the engineering positions are filled by foreign workers who make pretty good money considering the cost of living. Some are sons of factory owners who were able to pay the cost of education, and these sons stand to inherit the factory or start ones of their own. Neither the foreign workers nor the owners' sons are likely to rock the political boat, either.
I also believe that human rights reform in China is inevitable, but I don't think it'll come from the factories or the pennies the workers earn there. I believe it'll come from the upper class citizens as both education and a desire to interact on a worldwide level become more prevalent.
Thank you!
As a reward, I give you this picture.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
1.3 billion brace for the money shot.
I wish they'd just get on with it. I'm sick of hearing about all this 'will they, won't they?' crap. It's like watching an episode of Moonlighting. Still, I suppose we are living in the times of current affairs as 'entertainment'...
I don't think Chinese leadership is inflexible by western standards. Rather, I think they're completely pragmatic and utilitarian. If Google were to make it worth their while, they'd probably be willing to negotiate, however, I don't think Google's willing to go as far as that takes. "Flexible" is a relative term.
Are you defending pragmatic utilitarianism as a basis for government law? What do you say about the moral implications of not respecting Freedom Of Speech?
If I interpret tables 4 and 7 on this site correctly, in 2008 China would have lost 17.7% of their exports if they stopped exporting to the USA. So, problems on the scale of strikes and maybe riots, but probably not "a billion out of work and hungry people" because they can still manufacture for the remaining 82.3% of their customers.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
The loans are not callable.
And the limit of our liability is whatever assets are in their countries.
China has bought trillions to keep their currency from appreciating. When they stop buying, the currency appreciates anyway and those trillions in purchases lose significant value. So yea, they are going to lose trillions of bucks whatever they do.
In the meant time, the US got cheap goods and they got jobs and a chance to build infrastructure.
But you don't suppress your currency value for as long as they did and as much as they did without paying for it at some point.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Sure, those conditions and that money is probably a BIG STEP UP over how many were living
That is pure conjecture. Chinese factory work is institutionalized exploitation of a vast underclass. Most of these people would have been better off as farmers building their own local economies.
If you don't have time to watch this excellent documentary on contemporary china, then just watch section 5: "Two Chinas".
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
From his wiki page:
Education:
- Orange Coast College -- Associate's Degree in Merchandising
- CSU Long Beach -- BS in 'Man Power'
- PACE U -- certificate in 'Market Analysis'
This guy has always seemed to me to be the very essence of F_ _ _ TARD.
If I want to listen to the mindless ravings of tards, I'll turn on fox-news.
Rob Enderle's excellent new book: Everything I needed to know about Computer Science I learned in Marketing School
The reason China owns so much US debt is because they're trying to artificially peg their currency to ours. If they sell off the US debt that they own, their currency would gain value relative to the dollar which would reduce their ability to export their goods to just about any other country.
Quite frankly, it's what the US has been demanding China do for years.
*sigh* back to work...
Microsoft can't possibly withdraw from China -- it has a huge investment there that has nothing to do with the search engine market. Microsoft Research Asia is headquartered in Beijing; and a number of product teams have development teams in Shanghai (disclosure: including mine). They just opened a 4000-FTE office complex in one of Shanghai's technical districts. So I doubt Microsoft is going to close down Bing China out of principle.
"The urge to fly from modern systems, instead of moving through them to even greater, fairer things is, I think, an indi
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5353313
"Basically, to keep its currency fixed against the U.S. dollar, China must promise to be able to redeem one U.S. dollar for every 8 yuan. As China's economy grows, it must buy more and more U.S. currency to meet the growing number of yuan."
China will not be able to sell those bonds at face value.
For example, if they sell 10%, the price of the rest would drop (from a glut of bonds for sale on the market).
If they hold 10 trillion dollars in bonds, selling them all too quickly could lose them several trillion dollars.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I was very excited to hear this from Google back in January. Then weeks went by and nothing happened. I'll believe it when I see it.
Support the FairTax
Uhh... sure.
/wipes sweat from brow
I thought they would ask for something valuable. Spain is likely to drag down the Euro and Alaska is where Sarah Palin comes from.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
If I interpret tables 4 and 7 on this site correctly, in 2008 China would have lost 17.7% of their exports if they stopped exporting to the USA. So, problems on the scale of strikes and maybe riots, but probably not "a billion out of work and hungry people" because they can still manufacture for the remaining 82.3% of their customers.
You're saying a US-China trade war wouldn't send shockwaves through the global economy and europe and japan in particular ? Doubtful.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.