Project Natal Renamed 'Kinect'

tekgoblin writes "Many people gathered for the opening of E3 to see Project Natal. When they entered they were told that the new name of Natal is Kinect. Kinect is going to be the new way to play. It is going to be completely controller-free. You can browse your dashboard with the wave of your hand."

Comments

I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

It's a shame that MS and Sony seem to be investing all their efforts into jumping on a motion controller fad that's already fading fast (seriously, how many gamers have Wii's gathering dust in their closets already?). Meanwhile, MS is on the verge of breaking the 5-year rule with the 360, with Sony soon to follow--with no next-gen systems in sight. Both consoles are already showing their age--especially the 360 with its DVD drive, already necessitating several multi-disc releases.

I know there is a recession on and all, but the 5-year rule has held through recessions before. It even held during the early 80's console "collapse." Every day these systems age is another day that PC gaming starts to look more and more attractive to many of us gamers. And I really don't want to go back to PC gaming. But I also don't want to be playing on a console that's viewed more and more as a "toy," rather than a serious gaming platform.

I know that MS and Sony want to capture the casual market, but it seems misguided to me. Wii already *has* that market, and a knockoff copy of their controller probably isn't going to change that. Meanwhile, they risk losing the gamer market and ending up not pleasing anyone (by trying to please everyone).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you want to go back to PC gaming? It's better anyway. I have tried various consoles over the years and console gaming sucks.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Drakkenmensch]

The software industry may have a hand in keeping the next gen of consoles at bay. Considering that most of the high-graphics high-profile games now have a development budget in the millions of dollars and require upwards of a year (sometimes several years) to create, game developers have seemingly reached the upper limit of technology they can currently handle before going financially or workforce bankrupt. It's not until they can create more art, level design and cgi with less time and ressources involved for the current generation that they'll be able to even consider going one step up.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[dredwerker]

Its a bit unfair to call it a knockoff of the controller seeing as there is no controller :) but I would prob agree with your general sentiment.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

Because I chased that rabbit for too long in the 90's. When the Xbox 1 came along, I finally had a system that could deliver a comparable experience without having to constantly be upgrading (or worrying about the latest pain-in-the-ass DRM) to keep up. Ditto for the 360 and PS3. PC gaming is superior in many ways, no doubt. But it can also be a huge hassle.

And please don't give me that "You don't *have* to upgrade, you can just ramp down the settings on the latest games" argument. Yes that's true. But we all know that most self-respecting gamers *hate* to do that. No one likes to be the guy with an out-of-date system not getting the full experience of the game.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[ashridah]

Uh, who made this "5-year rule" up, exactly? You?
Microsoft sure didn't.

The original XBox had a life-span of about 4 years, not really enough time to recoup losses made. I'm not surprised that as the consoles get more expensive to make, that people want to push them out longer to make a reasonable profit on them.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

If you go back and look at the release dates between consoles, you'll see that the 5-year rule holds going all the way back to the Atari VCS. The only exceptions are the 360 (at 4 years) and the PS3 (at 6 years). But even giving them 6 years, we should already be hearing about a next-gen 360.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[gazbo]

So you don't want to play on a PC because you don't want to keep upgrading, so you want console vendors to release upgrades for you to buy. Interesting.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

When I was a PC gamer, I had to upgrade a lot more often than every 5 years. My credit card company can attest to it ;-)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks but I'll stick to playing my games in beautiful 1920x1200 on my PC, not the bullshit resolutions of most console games. That's called getting the full experience, because I can actual use the true resolution of my display.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Pojut]

especially the 360 with its DVD drive, already necessitating several multi-disc releases.

Remember back in the day, when people thought "Holy crap! It requires multiple disks! It must be HUGE!"? Final Fantasy VII is the example that immediately comes to mind.

Besides, multiple discs aren't really that big of a deal. I agree, it's nice having everything on one disc, but seriously...is it that hard to change the disc out every 10+ hours?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

That's a good point. Development costs (and the time involved) seem to be getting *way* out of hand these days.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Mashdar]

I have not changed any part of my computer (OK, I may have swapped the RAM out when I was building my HTPC) for over two years, and can still play any game I've tried on high settings. Oh, and I built the thing for under $800. The processor is still plenty powerful. Maybe I'll pick up a new video card in another year or so, but it will be a ~$150 one. Only crazy people are "having to constantly be upgrading". My advice: don't be cheap and buy a $50 video card expecting it to last indefinitely. Do some reading before you buy your parts. And don't think that 200fps with 32xAA is the bare minimum. PS WoW plays fine on my netbook.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Plenty of comments come to mind, including how a random /.er probably doesn't need to tell some of the biggest companies on the planet how to run their business. If you think the average 360/PS3 owner is in any way going to take up PC gaming, you're clueless. The consoles are going through a similar phenomenon as general computers, i.e., diminishing marginal returns on power. I just bought a 360 a few months ago, and the 'casual games' that my friends and I play would not benefit from more speed or graphics capability. There is no 5-year rule anymore, there just isn't sound business reason for it.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Egads, man, do you have no soul? Mario Galaxy 2 just came out! While the Wii doesn't have all those FPS games, it's difficult to imagine a person being a real gamer and not playing the flagship Mario games. Man, I miss the 80's. What exactly makes a headshot more valuable than kicking Bowser's ass?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Aladrin]

The PS1's multi-disc games, towards the end, were getting to be a serious pain in the butt. They made you swap too often, mostly.

So while the current 360 multi-disc games aren't a yet a major pain, they will be before long. That, or they'll have lower-resolution videos and textures than their PS3 counterparts and will be ridiculed for it.

I'll admit, though... The current systems have lasted 5 years much better than the previous generations did.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Karganeth]

I find it interesting that many intelligent people are unable to distinguish between the technology and experience in the Kinect and the Wii. One is a stupid tracker that follows one point in x y z and the other is a very advanced system of cameras that tracks YOUR ENTIRE BODY and doesn't require a controller. The technology and experience from using the Kinect are vastly superior to the Wii's. DO NOT GROUP THEM TOGETHER.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[somersault]

The idea for the Wii control system is good, just a lot of the games have been crap. Designing games around the controllers is a bit stupid too. Games work a lot better when the controller has been designed for the type of game than vice versa (ie guitar hero guitar or steering wheels).

The Sony system looks a lot more flexible than the MS one and so I have more hope that it can work with a broad range of game types. At least it should have buttons. I'm assuming the MS system is going to have to rely on various gimmicks when you want to select something or fire a weapon or whatever.. I don't want to play a game with an imaginary controller any more than I want to play guitar hero with a theremin (as per the video shown a couple of days ago). "Air" instruments suck.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[El Neepo]

I'd rather hear about "minor" upgrades to the 360/PS3. While this motion controller may not be anything revolutionary when compared to the Wii, some people might find it fun and buy it as a totally optional upgrade.

The example of the 360's DVDs is valid but does solving that problem require a totally new console? There could be another optional upgrade to Blu-ray (I wonder why that isn't out yet) to increase disk capacity.

I'd rather have small ones too just because I'm not ready to buy a totally new console when good games with really good graphics are still coming out for my existing one.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Smegoid]

That's a little disingenuous. Given the console is 5 years old and this is the first significant and, dare we say, optional upgrade. It's really not so bad. Particularly given that people spend upwards of 300-500$ for video cards (double that for SLI) and they do this much more often that 5 years. Let's not get into the motherboards that have to house these puppies. Hell, people's PC cases are more expensive and upgraded more often than their consoles. I've upgraded my computer twice since the xbox launch. I'm sure I'm not a minority there.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[somersault]

If you read his original comment, he said he thinks these controllers are a waste of time.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Midnight's Shadow]

I agree with the fact that the motion controller fad is fading fast but I have to disagree with needing new consoles. Yes the 360 is showing its age but the PS3 hasn't even been pushed to its extremes yet. In fact I'd argue that a new console would just do more harm then good considering the cost and time it takes to make a single game for either system. How much money and time will it take to make games for the next generation of consoles?

Sony should be focusing on making it easier and cheaper to make games for their system.

MS should figure out a way to incorporate a blueray drive onto the 360.

With these changes we might be able to get some fun (remember that fun?) games that all don't feel like FPS clones.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[AHuxley]

reached the upper limit of technology at 720p :)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

But I also don't want to be playing on a console that's viewed more and more as a "toy," rather than a serious gaming platform.

Uhmm... did you SERIOUSLY type this?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[nschubach]

I don't know if I'd say you "had to upgrade"... I'm sure there was more "want" in there. ;)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[xSauronx]

agreed. my issue isnt the constant upgrades...but I sold my video card recently and bought a used PS3. im not as good at console games as at mouse./keyboard stuff on the pc but i can adjust, im *SICK* of the DRM restrictions on pc games. all i play on my pc now are old, old games i still have around, or titles under $10 from steam. Im not going to pay $50 and $60 a game anymore to get jerked around if my internet connection is acting up or get hassled in any other way.

I know several people with PS3s....none of them bitch about the thing.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[bluesatin]

And please don't give me that "You don't *have* to upgrade, you can just ramp down the settings on the latest games" argument. Yes that's true. But we all know that most self-respecting gamers *hate* to do that.

After admiring the new purdy graphics on most games for about 10 minutes, I usually go back and turn the graphics way down to make sure I have a steady FPS; I get so immersed in games after about 20 minutes of gameplay I don't notice whether or not my shadows are perfectly smooth around the edges.

As long as the graphics aren't absolutely terrible to the point where it's distracting, I'll be happy playing on the lower settings.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[alen]

the big advantage about the 5 year rule was better graphics. the latest generation of consoles also had online built in. the whole motion gaming thing sounds cooler and worth buying rather than just better graphics

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[AndrewNeo]

I don't see any reason why Microsoft has to build a new console. Installation numbers are still growing, as is the number of games. I have a hard time remembering it came out 5 years ago, and I still play my 360 very often (when not playing PC games)
Certainly they should upgrade the console itself though. And they are. There's talk of the Slim, they've been making bigger hard drives (could you imagine having the 20gb HD for the whole 10-year cycle! Hah!), Natal (I refuse to call it Kinect) to bring in more casual gamers, and guess what? The graphics still look great. Why, exactly, do we need a new generation of consoles? Console gaming has changed, as of this generation.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[somersault]

Even if MS release a new console that doesn't mean the lifespan of the 360 is over. The PS2 is still having new games made for it, so it hasn't reached its full lifespan yet despite the PS3 being out. I think that's a pretty good thing as it caters to different segments of the market. Some people just can't afford a PS3 or 360..

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Pojut]

Not to mention Madworld, Dead Space: Extraction, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Metroid Prime Trilogy, Twilight Princess, Fire Emblem, Smash Bros. Brawl, Guilty Gear XX, No More Heroes...there are plenty of awesome games out there for the Wii.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[SkunkPussy]

tbh i've been playing pc games that have been released for 1-2 years, and I;ve found that I can typically pick them up for between £5 and £15. Steam has also got in on the act by typically dropping the price of XXX 1, just before XXX 2 is released. Because I'm playing games that are slightly older than cutting edge, it means the graphics card/pc i need doesn't have to be cutting edge.

Whereas console games are £30-40 and the graphics probably aren't even as good

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

There was an HD-DVD add-on drive for the 360, but MS (foolishly, IMHO) restricted it to playing HD-DVD movies and didn't allow developers to use it for games.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Ephemeriis]

But even giving them 6 years, we should already be hearing about a next-gen 360.

That's what is really surprising me...

Seems to me that we used to start hearing rumblings about the next big thing about 3 or 4 years into a console. I haven't heard anything at all about a successor to any of these machines.

One could argue that we've hit some kind of peak and it we don't need a new console because current hardware is good enough... But that just doesn't seem to be true. As the OP pointed out, games are starting to exceed the storage capacity of the 360's DVD drive. The PS3 just started shipping HDMI-ready... And both consoles are trying to bolt-on motion control features...

Seems like a fairly solid argument could be made for rolling out a new box sometime soon.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[SkunkPussy]

on my pc I expect never to have to piss about with the disc once i've installed the game (so unlike on consoles, drm that expects a disc to be in the drive really pisses me off)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Bobakitoo]

You got the same pain-in-the-ass DRM with console. At last with PC, you can patch the software to fix the problem. Also you are constantly upgrading your console, every 5 years exactly, you trash it all and get a new one. Except this time there is no upgrade option for you as you expected. And this is why you are mad... there is no "upgrade hassle" for you to pick this year. Why are you complaining? This is exactly what console promissed, finaly delivred.

By your definition, console are out-of-date system from day one. But nobody noticed it because there is not setting to ramp down on console games.

We have reached the maxium of what graphics can do for gaming immersion. Peoples want better way to interact with software. I agree with you that Sony and Micro-Soft new controls are late game gimmick. But, since they are not making new consoles any soon it might be succesful.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you want to go back to PC gaming? It's better anyway. I have tried various consoles over the years and console gaming sucks.

Better as in, download new vga and sound drivers for every new game, suffer horrible framerates if your rig is not build in last 3 months and you want to play latest and greatest 3d fps. Take constant care of your system (xp + firewall + antivirus + antispyvare) and if not lucky reinstall xp once in a while. Suffer unfinished and unfinishable games, waiting months for patches so you can play farther. Play with mouse and keyboard only, gamepad and joystick support in pc games is almost nonexistent.

Pc has it's share of excelent games, so has Xbox 360, Wii, Ps3 and every other gaming device created but when you talk how pc gaming is superior you only deluding yourself.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

The DRM on new games is obnoxious and offensive. In the last 3 years, I've only bought games from gog.com. Not exactly cutting edge stuff.

My Caesar III gets 1200fps.

At least with the consoles, you don't have to worry about what rootkits^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H drivers any given disc is installing. Only signed kernel patches.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont forget with a console you're buying a TV, usually much more expensive games and add-on devices and a significantly less powerful machine.
Things have slowed a little now that most PC games seem to be designed for the capabilities of the consoles. Even a modest
PC with an average modern graphics card can do the 720p that most console games output at these days. When they go much higher
the consoles suffer from severe framerate drops unless they reduce render quality.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Narishma]

That's all well and good but it doesn't really matter when the end result is this.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

That Bowser always was a smug jackass. You would think the royal family would have stepped up security by now though, wouldn't you? If the U.S. President was kidnapped, I would hope we wouldn't have to resort to sending a plumber and his brother to rescue him.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Killer Orca]

Yeah, considering that releasing games in HD-DVD format would open up your market to current 360 owners again and if you released only in HD-DVD, which no one would do as it cuts down the number of potential customers further, publishers were smart to avoid releasing games in that format.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[EMR]

Actually, the PS2 has no more games being developed for it. I was actually in a Gamestop a month ago and there were only like 5 games in the pipeline before the EOL of new games to the PS2. And I can not justify buying a PS3 ESPECIALLY with the recent barrage of Firmware updates and EULA changes that take away the rights of the owner of the unit. I'll pass..

(BTW, I love the tag line)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[VGPowerlord]

I don't know about Microsoft, but I thought Sony announced in advance that they intended for it to be 10 years before the PS3 was replaced. Which means we have about... oh... 6 years to go.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

(seriously, how many gamers have Wii's gathering dust in their closets already?)

I doubt you have any numbers for that, since if you did, you would have presented them. There is no evidence that the Wii will lose its dominance four years into the console wars, especially since it continues to sell at a rate just a little short of the PS3 and 360 combined, and obliterated the PS2's one-month console sales record last December by more than a million units.

Personally, I find it disturbing how self-styled 'hardcore' gamers have managed to convince themselves that the Wii is, and always has been a disastrous failure, and repeat FUD to themselves (eg "the Wii isn't a true gamer's system", "waggle is a stupid gimmick", "nobody touches the Wii after the first few weeks", etc) until they themselves are convinced of it. Seriously, what would George Orwell say about a group of people that's willing to brainwash themselves into believing what people in power want them to believe without any prompting?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. They're now as big as big movies. Why? Because the sell a lot of games to make massive profits. Would you rather have major productions like call of duty4+, fallout3 or wii boxing and other cheap shovelware?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[vlm]

Only crazy people are "having to constantly be upgrading"

I take it you're not a grinder. I'm not either, but I do understand grinders. The same people that get a huge kick out of games designed around endless repetition, will be equally addicted to the game of "buy the top of the line graphics card the day its released". They don't have to do so for any reason, other than enjoying the grind itself. So trying to explain to them that they "DON'T REALLY HAVE TO GRIND VIDEO CARDS" is futile, because what they enjoy is the process of grinding itself.

In comparison, I'm mostly a wargamer/strategy gamer. Obviously I can't play games like that on consoles because they don't sell games like that for consoles. But my pusher matrixgames.com keeps me well supplied with new games, and we'll assume for the sake of argument that consoles sold strategic wargames... Much as I appreciate a good 3 dimensional perfectly timed combined arms attack, I enjoy timing my game PC upgrade purchases so optimum motherboard price decline occurs simultaneously with optimal CPU pricing at the same time as a video card price drop. I'd miss all that upgrade scheduling fun if I had a console instead of a PC. Also as a wargamer, I care a hell of a lot more about screen size and resolution than I do about frame rate, but video card marketing price segments solely on frame rate, so even if I because a "video card grinder" my optimum card is probably not the optimum (and expensive) card for a frame rate grinder.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[AlizarinCrimson]

This is silly, a console costs what 200, 300 dollars now? The only upgrade a gaming PC usually needs these days is a graphics card, which wow cost what 200 to 300 for a decent card? Yes DRM can be a be a pain I'll grant that.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

I really doubt we will see any new consoles anytime soon. I think, apart from Kinect, the only upgrade to the 360 wee will see is a bigger HDD and maybe a Blu-Ray drive...at a push

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Xest]

Natal, or 'Kinect' is different though, unfortunately not many people seem to have the imagination capable of seeing why so far however and just dismiss it as a clone of the Wii's control system.

The fundamental difference with Kinect is it's controllerless nature. A lot of people seem to see this as some mutually exclusive thing, but that's simply not the case. There's no reason Kinect can't be used with existing control systems- this may for example mean observing the player as they play an FPS and allowing them to duck slightly to the left or right to avoid incoming projectiles, this may mean using the classic guitar hero guitar controllers whilst rocking out, or using the Lips microphones whilst dancing.

Not all of this is exactly groundbreaking but it's enough to add an extra layer of imersiveness to existing games that we just haven't had up until now- Wii games haven't been immersive because they've for the most party been outright crap, but where they haven't, simply haven't had the graphics capabilities to really draw you into the game world. Kinect means that the device can support even the existing hardcore crowd- they didn't like the Wii, but this system gives the option of going the full distance with brand new types of games on the Wii, or simply augmenting existing game types with features that can draw the player in a little more.

Move really is just a Wii clone, but even that has it's merits- it seems to be far more flexible and precise than the Wii, but importantly it's on a console that can simply do more than the Wii and which has a proven track record of developers actually making great games, whilst the Wii's game lineup still to this day leaves a lot to be desired with very little worth mentioning outside a few of Nintendo's first party titles. So even Sony's offering despite being much more a clone of the Wii's setup shows an awful lot of promise.

So all in all, I think these releases do in fact matter, which is not to say that I wouldn't like to see a new console iteration too, but I suspect people like you can me are in a minority- the 360/PS3 didn't really start selling until they came in at below £250, and I don't think that wave of purchases is over yet, I think people like us are probably a minority in being willing to splash £350 - £500 out on a new system just yet, and Microsoft and Sony having spent so much money investing in trying to outdo the other with their hardware this time round themselves probably want to soak up some profits before they start churning out that kind of system again. Besides, the PS3 and 360 still wow me with their graphical abilities to this day, and PCs still aren't really churning out anything more stunning despite them now being more powerful so there's not really a competition aspect for Sony and Microsoft there either.

On the upside, at least Move and Kinect will be well tuned and lessons will have been learnt by Microsoft, Sony, and 3rd party developers alike in time for them to be fully integrated components of the next gen consoles, the sort of thing that will then come as standard.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

And if their main competitor released a new console next year that blew away the PS3, do you really think that they would wait 5 years to respond? That was just PR talk (aimed at convincing PS2 users to upgrade).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

Dont forget with a console you're buying a TV

One TV that up to four people can share in a game like Bomberman, Power Stone, or Smash Bros. Compare to PC, where too many popular games follow the handheld pattern of needing a separate PC, monitor, and copy of the game per player.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[westlake]

seriously, how many gamers have Wii's gathering dust in their closets already?

As of 10 AM ET this morning, the Will holds 11 of the top 25 slots - hardware and software - as best sellers in video games for Amazon.com.

a knockoff copy of their controller

Natal was always much more than a knock-off.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

Steam has also got in on the act by typically dropping the price of XXX 1, just before XXX 2 is released.

A lot of console games go in the bargain bin once the sequel comes out, but then (especially in the case of PlayStation family consoles) they kill the old version's multiplayer matchmaking servers.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[PopeRatzo]

I finally had a system that could deliver a comparable experience without having to constantly be upgrading

You understand that there are lots of us that like to upgrade our systems. We keep a big part of the computer industry alive.

And regarding "controllerless" gaming, I just wish the console people would instead spend more time and money making games that feel as smooth, natural and personal as Half-Life 2 or Doom. The current third-person puppet-shows that seem to dominate gaming are starting to really get on my nerves, where you wonder why your character can't seem to figure out how to jump over a 2-foot high box and keeps using it for cover instead. In my experience, consoles are good for racing or driving games, and a few fighting games and that's about it. Even worse, the least attractive parts of console gaming are starting to infect computer games. So not only have consoles not advanced gaming technology, they've actually hindered it in some ways. I own a PS3 and there is potential, but the industry seems to be going through a phase where they're just not that interested in providing really great gaming experiences. It's all marionettes and button-mashing.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[GrumblyStuff]

They're both stupid trackers. The Wii just happens to be more couch friendly.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

This is silly, a console costs what 200, 300 dollars now? The only upgrade a gaming PC usually needs these days is a graphics card, which wow cost what 200 to 300 for a decent card?

Graphics cards aren't a game's only system requirement. A PC from the fourth quarter of 2005, when Xbox 360 was launched, might not have the CPU and RAM to run newer games. And most titles still need separate PCs, monitors, and graphics cards for players 2 through 4 in your household, though now that HDTV has become popular, this is starting to change with the inclusion of HTPC support in the PC version of Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Gadget_Guy]

Just because you did this doesn't mean to say that you had to do it. If you look at the PC gaming stats you will see why the midrange graphics settings in games get called 'mainstream'. Only a third of people play at 1680x1050 or greater. It is because most people have fairly basic setups and they do not follow the perpetual upgrade path.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[rotide]

I use to be a die-hard PC gaming fan. Then, to be honest, I grew up. Gaming to me is now about relaxing and enjoying my free time. The last thing I want to do is worry about framerates on the latest game to hit the shelves or the DRM they incorporate.

I simply want to sit down, turn it on, hit play, and be playing. Standardized hardware is awesome for this ability to always be great hardware for the software I purchased.

Now, I will admit that PC games have the ability to be _much_ prettier and I still can't stand FPS games on a console (keyboard/mouser), but for _any_ other game, the console is just a no brainer for me. It's just so easy to go to the store and pick up the latest AAA title and enjoy it.

Maybe PC gaming as a whole is better for you, and I'm happy for you. But I'd argue that your opinion is not universal fact, "It's better anyway.".

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[CronoCloud]

The PS3 just started shipping HDMI-ready...

No, the PS3 has always had an HDMI port, they just didn't ship it with an HDMI cable.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

At least with the consoles, you don't have to worry about what rootkits^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H drivers any given disc is installing. Only signed kernel patches.

Unless the signed kernel patch "fixes" a jailbreak that your favorite homebrew game depends on.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[binarylarry]

So what you're saying is you prefer less choice because you can't reign in your spending habits?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Ephemeriis]

The PS3 just started shipping HDMI-ready...

No, the PS3 has always had an HDMI port, they just didn't ship it with an HDMI cable.

So... It's now shipping HDMI-ready?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Dan667]

no vendor lock-in problems like this, no poor quality consoles, why exactly are you not PC Gaming? You even get to use all 10 fingers to play games and not just your thumbs.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[netsavior]

It's a shame that MS and Sony seem to be investing all their efforts into jumping on a motion controller fad that's already fading fast (seriously, how many gamers have Wii's gathering dust in their closets already?).

You are funny. You don't seem to understand what corporations want, which is profit - aka sales


You do realize that game sales for the Wii make the PS3 and 360 look like a joke right?
Best selling game for PS3: Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 - 4.75m
360 - Halo3 - 8.1m
Wii - Wii Sports - 63.46m but ok that is *cheating* with a bundle, so how about Wii play - 27.38m but again bundled with a new controller... so Wii Fit - 22.61m but to be fair it came with hardware making the game cost about 2x as much as other games... ok so lets go to Mario Kart wii - 22.55m

Wiki citation, but yeah still even if the numbers are a bit different from the article, the point still stands.
This *fad* sure has generated a fuckload of sales, especially when compared to the "competition"

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[timeOday]

Current consoles have a big advantage - a hard drive. Multiple discs isn't so bad if you just need them for install, and not to play thereafter. I wouldn't want to get back to 7 disk installs like with floppies, but we don't seem to be on the verge of that.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to disagree. Game developers are not constrained by their technology, they have simply become accustomed to their profit margins. They have already established that their customers will pay a ludicrous amount of money for sequels and DLC (which recycle a great deal of assets), why would they even bother investing in new resources to propel themselves forward?
To prove my point, look no further than all of the titles from independent developers available on Steam. A great deal of them rival so-called "AAA" studios in quality, duration, and price. It really is just a case of the smaller guy being more agile than the larger guy, therefore producing much more in much less time.
Perhaps this is a byproduct of studios being locking themselves into the console market, but don't tell me it's a technology issue.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[ProppaT]

There is no 5 year rule. Seriously. A couple generations back we had that cycle because technology was advancing rapidly. Now game console technology is waiting for consumers to catch up and adopt HD. Believe it or not, there's still plenty of people who don't have HDTVs. Also, now that people are getting HDTVs they're more than happy with the graphics on their 360 and PS3. Sony said, out the gate, that they were aiming for a 10 year product cycle on the PS3. Personally, I'm glad that no one (except for Nintendo) is in a huge hurry to push anything new out. It's not time. I'd rather see a huge jump from current gen to next gen instead of putting out the same console, just with marginally better graphics.

Then we have the developer issues. These new consoles are complicated to program. Heck, many of the companies have just finally got their internal development tools tweaked out for this gen. They're finally getting to the point where they can start putting out games faster and put out interesting/experimental games without taking a huge risk. It's not like things used to be...games are a massive undertaking now due to the complexity of the games themselves and high definition art. Game developers need this time to actually start turning decent profit. It's been a rough few years...

Besides, are you really in a hurry to spend $500+ on a new console? Shorter console life cycles benefit no one at this point, especially consumers.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

How many of those games came out in the past 5 years? Were any of them released after the Xbox 360 was made? I've only heard of Bomberman (I'll never play games on a console until they ship them with controllers suitable for people with disabilities) but I'm fairly sure its a much older game. Most of the games I've seen recently for consoles seem to also require a separate tv, console, copy of the game etc. Console or PC makes little difference these days as the games are mostly ports and use an engine optimized for the least powerful hardware. Yeah it sucks but changing from 200p to 720p to 1080p doesn't make it a better game.

It still doesn't change the problems with consoles and gaming these days. They are constantly trying to come up with newer 'gimmicks'
to sell boxes. New controllers, more cinematics, bigger stars, licensing deals for big names, louder effects & flashier graphics. If they
put 1% of the effort and money they put into all the crap & marketing into better gameplay they'd end up with a better product. But of course thats bad business. You dont want to sell a game that people will play for a few thousand hours (except MMOs where there is residual income). Its better to sell a 20-40 hour experience so you can then sell them a sequel with slightly modified gameplay/graphics or whatever.

Natal or 'Hands-Free Gimmick' as its now known will sell a lot of hardware and software in a big push to hide the fact
that the games are actually a bit shit. Sales will drop off just in time for the next big thing.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[NeoMorphy]

Fading fast?

Everyone I know who had an XBox or PS3 that bought a Wii afterwards were blown away by the difference the controllers make.

First person shooters are a lot more fun when you can point at the target and shoot instead of using a joystick to slide the target cursor over then shoot.

I've played RE4 on the GameCube, then later I got the Wii version. The Wii version was a lot more fun.

I'll never bother with a shooter game that doesn't give me light-gun type controls ever again.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[JDeane]

I know in my house, our Wii hardly ever gets a chance to rest. Too many great games for this system.

Any real "harcore gamer" owns a Wii and at least one other system. I have a Wii and a PS3, while I love them both if I was forced to choose between the two right now the Wii would be what I would keep. I also own what I would term a gaming PC and it can play all the latest and greatest. (I think I may have wasted my money on my last few upgrades since 90% of the time I am playing WoW... Bioshock 2 was the last FPS type game I played)

Love the games, not the systems.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[CronoCloud]

multi-disc games tend to have a bit more enforced linearity, removing your ability to do certain things or return to certain areas once you've switched to the next disc. I'd lay odds that this is one of the reasons FFXIII is more linear, unlike FFXII, a single disc game that while it has a linear storyline, you can go off and wander if you want.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Dishevel]

So you do not mind the DRM on consoles?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Nemyst]

Funny that, because most console games are being directly ported to PC nowadays, so if you buy a PC at the same time as you buy a console, its lifetime should be roughly equal. You could wait 6 months after a console's release to be sure.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Sir_Lewk]

I use to be a die-hard PC gaming fan. Then, to be honest, I grew up. I got a library card and a job, so now I can read as many books as I could possibly want. Unbelievably cheaper and more satisfying, my wallet thanks me and I don't constantly feel like an unproductive baffoon.

Most of the people I know still game heavily, but I really don't understand it. I have a very hard time finding any sort of computer game enjoyable these days, even the old ones that I used to like. Console gaming certainly seems more sane than PC gaming now (more social and relaxed), but when you really think about it, it is all rubish.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

It wouldn't be so bad if it actually worked that way. But with all the multiple disc games I've seen so far, the appropriate disc has to still be in the DVD drive, regardless of whether or not you've installed it to the hard drive (much like with PC games requiring the disc in the drive even if your installed them). So even if you install both discs of Mass Effect 2 on the hard drive, you still have to swap out the discs when the time comes. Not sure if this is true with some of the other multiple disc releases, but I suspect so.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[MBGMorden]

Cables aren't considered required components, anymore than you have to have batteries ship with all electronics to make them functional.

The fact that they just started shipping the cables is a non-issue. It had an HDMI port, the games supported, and so it was always HDMI-ready.

To the general topic though, the reality is that we're at a stage now where the games are pretty darned good on current hardware. We won't stay at this level forever, and there's certainly room for improvement, but at the level we're at, gamers just don't seem to need something new quite as badly.

Remember also, that companies typically don't make money on consoles. They make money on GAMES. It's in their best interests to stretch a console run as long as possible. They'll not make another iteration unless they think sales need to be boosted. Sales have been good on both platforms.

Quick and dirty summary: companies don't need to make another console as it's expensive and games are still welling well for current gen. Gamers don't need to buy a console as most seem to be happy with current gen tech and buying a new system would cost more money. Both of these issues are even more significant in a down economy.

Personally, I think PS3 and XB360 could both easily go another 3, possibly even 4 more years without a new unit replacing them.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[elrous0]

Yeah, but doing a knockoff is hardly an assurance of co-opting those kinds of sales. As I said, the Wii *has* the casual market. And there is a lot of money in that market, yes. But I think MS and Sony's assumption that they can cut into that so easily is misguided (especially at the rumored $150 price point of the Natal), and it does a disservice to the market they already *do* have (the more serious gamer).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[yincrash]

DRM on console doesn't impede normal or expected usage of the game on a console

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[icebraining]

You mean the PS3 were they take away features with system updates? The consoles were they provide DLCs instead of including the content in the locked to your account so you can't resell your games? As for the "always online DRM", don't worry, it's coming.

DRM is a disease that infects any kind of platform - the only way is to stop buying infected media and give our money to good guys like indie developers or the few large developers that don't rely on it.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Braid was developed by two guys on a shoestring budget and I preferred it to Fallout 3.

Likewise, Clerks was funnier than any other Hollywood comedy for the past decade or so (including its sequel!)

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[vlueboy]

Seems to me that we used to start hearing rumblings about the next big thing about 3 or 4 years into a console. I haven't heard anything at all about a successor to any of these machines.

I'm sure those 2008-2009 US jobless claim bombs affected headcounts for project Natale's and Sony's Wii-killer. The worldwide recession has delayed the progress of plenty of "serious" research, let alone entertainment. Just like with everything else this past two years.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flitty]

Also, these developers have now mastered the current gen systems, much like they did with Xbox1 and PS2. In the 1-2 years of the last generation before the new generation came out, we got the most artistic and stylistic games, due to the limits of the system AND because the developers knew the system well enough that they didn't need to focus on learning the system anymore, they could spend more time on gameplay tweaks and art style.

You can probably expect more "tricks" to keep games from now on looking really good, but I keep seeing new games that continue to impress me graphically, especially if you go back and look at some of the launch titles. Devs are still cracking this hardware open to do new things. I'd personally like to see a smaller jump in increased resolution and instead have a huge leap in load times and reduction in things like screen tearing, increasing anti-aliaising, and graphics Quality.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

breaking the 5-year rule

But the retail cost of the consoles and the games has risen significantly.

As has development costs. Also the consumer base has aged and widened.

And there's the Wii. Sure, I think it's an underpowered novelty, but it pointed out a strong gaming market that Sony and MS missed, and that they can extend their existing more powerful hardware into.

The other thing about the 5-year rule is where the more-average gamer would have one console/game-set in that time, instead there is three sufficiently different units to desire and acquire.

This all kicks the momentum out of investing in a next generation -- it's not clear right now what a next generation could offer that would definitely be worth the investment of both the manufacturer and the consumer, and the risk of failure (= less that big success) at current development costs is just too great to be cavalier about.

For capital-G 'gamers' like you, the PC is very likely going to continue looking better for a while. And MS doesn't mind that -- it's a terrific lock-in and upgrade-need for home computer OS sales. I expect MS is only going to invest in a next gen console when Sony looks like they're developing something that can dominate consoles again.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Cables aren't considered required components, anymore than you have to have batteries ship with all electronics to make them functional.

The phrase "batteries not included" doesn't sound like "ready" to me. Way too many syllables. Doesn't even rhyme. So... it wasn't shipping HDMI ready before, is what you're saying.

The fact that they just started shipping the cables is a non-issue. It had an HDMI port, the games supported, and so it was always HDMI-ready.

Yet without buying new junk, you couldn't do any of that neat HDMI stuff. So... it wasn't shipping HDMI ready before, is what you're saying.

To the general topic though, the reality is that we're at a stage now where the games are pretty darned good on current hardware.

So... it wasn't shipping HDMI ready before, is what you're saying.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Captain Spam]

If the U.S. President was kidnapped, I would hope we wouldn't have to resort to sending a plumber and his brother to rescue him.

If the U.S. President were kidnapped by a giant fire-breathing turtle and a bunch of angry-looking mushroom people, I think we'd want, nay, need an equally absurd solution to the problem. So, send in the jumping plumbers!

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Amouth]

Did you ever get a chance to play Braid?? very simplistic and exceptionally well done game..

if that falls under your cheap shovelware - then that is what i'd rather have than another rehash of a FPS with the same old same old and new models..

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flitty]

This is the biggest failing of MS's implementation of HDD installs. Disc 1 from any Multi-Disc game should authorize the console to read any disc off of the HDD. I mean, Mass Effect 2, You had to get up and swap the disc, it would spin it to read that it was the disc, and never access it again. I don't understand why MS doesn't make this change.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Schadrach]

Can't the PS3 do 1080p? I know several of the games have that marked on the back of the box...

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[KDR_11k]

My display has a native 1920x1080 resolution, consoles deliver that just fine.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Simulant]

Yes but, in the past 5 years or so, PC upgrades have gotten cheaper and less frequent. My last upgrade, from dual core, to quad core, cost about $110 and effectively doubled my BC2 frame rate at 1920x1200 res.

About two years prior to that, I spent $150 on a video card to go SL

Not too bad. The base system is over 5 years old... some parts are 8 years old.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Aphoxema]

I'm confident it isn't necessary to waste resources on three new lines of consoles and shitty accessories just yet. It's the software that needs to improve. Better hardware just makes developers lazy but better practices in programming is an investment in every individual.

I don't see how Microsoft and Sony diversifying will harm the rest of their business. They could get some pretty bright minds in on the motion control that could impact other concepts greatly.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

As an add-on attachment, I would agree with MS's move not to let games to be developed on it since not everyone will buy the attachment, most will get annoyed with it, and as a result you'll just have a subset of your market able to play (And thus willing to buy) those games.

On the other hand, if they're planning on being in this for the 10 year haul, now would be a good time to have the disc drive replaced with a HDDVD that can play regular DVDs as well. But NOT allow them for game development for another 2-3 years at the very least. And even then only allow it if they can be assured that the majority of their install base is running the HDDVD models. (Like polling the system when they connect to Live.) They can help that install base along a bit by sending back HDDVD compatible units whenever they get an older model back for warranty reasons.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Scrameustache]

Natal, or 'Kinect' is different though, unfortunately not many people seem to have the imagination capable of seeing why

I've been playing "controller less" video games at various science&tech exhibits since the 80s, and they all had one thing in common: Suckage.

This over-hyped gadget WILL disappoint once it's out of marketing-controlled settings, and you only have to read the works of Douglas Noel Adams to have a very eloquent explanation of why (in brief: the system is too dumb to correctly interpret movements).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[gad_zuki!]

Well put. I pretty excited by the possibilities of this technology. The idea of having a "Minority Report" type interface is pretty cool. I'm not so jazzed about the games but of how this could be a new interface. I'm sick of mice and keyboards. I almost never type on my android phone. I just use speech to text. I hate having to pull out a giant keyboard to type things into my HTPC. I hate having to find a surface for the wireless mouse, replace batteries, etc. I hate playing the occasional console game and having to learn what the 20 or so buttons on the controller do.

A camera-based interface done well could revolutionize how we interface with all sorts of technologies, not just games. Sony tried it in the PS2 days and now MS is trying it. Hopefully, they'll get it right. We shouldn't need input devices for what are essentially trivial inputs.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[KDR_11k]

Yet those cheap Wii games sell better than the epic blockbuster titles.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[ashridah]

The problem then would be that it'd have to be disc 1, and ONLY disc 1 that worked this way, or you'd effectively have multiple copies of the game handy.

I think Forza 3 actually did this, mind you. It had a second disc, and offered to let you install it to the hard drive. More games should do this, i guess, but they don't want to force a HD onto anyone, since it's possible to buy an xbox without one.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[toriver]

The "Other OS" feature was only ever present on the first generation of PS3s, so no big loss to the majority of owners. They have ADDED more features than they have taken away, features that benefit GAMERS not nerds who can run Linux on anything else they want to.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[ashridah]

I don't buy games in stores for this reason nowadays. Steam or independent download only.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Toonol]

Resolution is hugely overemphasized. Everything else being equal, higher resolution is nice... but not nearly as important as decent animation, decent art design, decent framerate, and so on.

Look at a DVD. Resolution of 720x480, but they can look nicer than nearly any videogame. I think resolution is always talked about because it's such a simple quantifiable attribute to measure.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[InsertCleverUsername]

I'm assuming the MS system is going to have to rely on various gimmicks when you want to select something or fire a weapon or whatever..

Having the "body controller" doesn't preclude using a regular controller with buttons, triggers, etc. at the same time. A FPS with some kind of gun prop AND body control could be incredibly fun.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[KDR_11k]

The Kinect may be more advanced technology but the jury is still out on whether the experience is superior. The software so far isn't exactly killer app material and console tech isn't very useful without a good game.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[gad_zuki!]

>No one likes to be the guy with an out-of-date system not getting the full experience of the game.

The difference between playing a game on medium settings vs high are trivial, yet a system that can handle high costs twice as much. If you shoot for the bang-for-the-buck magic middle, you'll find that PC gaming is affordable. I get the full experience with my $100 video card and frankenputer, thank you very much.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Kenoli]

You could always buy the game but play the superior pirated version.
Or, you know, not buy DRM-ridden loads of shit.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I'll get off your lawn.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[powerlord]

On the upside, at least Move and Kinect will be well tuned and lessons will have been learnt by Microsoft, Sony, and 3rd party developers alike in time for them to be fully integrated components of the next gen consoles, the sort of thing that will then come as standard.

Actually, I expect that the next gen of consoles will be able to utilize the peripherals from this gen (just add a bump in Video/CPU).

For Sony at least, the interfaces have been standardized (Bluetooth, USB). The peripherals should all be compatible with the next version of hardware.

Eye, Move and PS3 controllers being compatible would be an even bigger incentive to their base to invest in the controllers now, and upgrade to a new console later.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

How many games actually take full advantage of it? Some yes, and the number is growing. But certainly not as many as there should be.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[KDR_11k]

Natal, or 'Kinect' is different though, unfortunately not many people seem to have the imagination capable of seeing why

If the videogame industry has taught me one thing it's to never use my imagination to think what a product COULD do because that's guaranteed to disappoint me. Imagination is a powerful thing, your imagination can often produce thoughts that are way better than what reality can deliver. What did you imagine the Wii would do when it was announced? I had so many ideas on that. Yet all we got was old concepts with the occasional bit of motion control shoehorned in.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[GrumblyStuff]

Camera tracking will be far to ambiguous. Are you trying to delete that file or were you just scratching your eyebrow? Were you discretely adjusting your underwear or did you want full on, hard core porn being played on the big screen?

Now if you said brain implants, then you might be onto something but even that would require a society far less crazy and far more in control of themselves as well as one with a much deeper understanding of themselves lest any thought be put use immediately (see examples above).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[icebraining]

The same people that get a huge kick out of games designed around endless repetition, will be equally addicted to the game of "buy the top of the line graphics card the day its released".

It depends. My favorite games are based on endless repetition, mainly online FPS shooters and emulated arcade games (with some other genres mixed). Yet until it died, I was playing CoD4 on my P4 at 800x600 and 40 fps, because I don't really care about that - I care about the competition, and graphics quality doesn't win you the game.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

How many of those games came out in the past 5 years?

Every Wii game has come out in the past five years, and dozens of them support couch multiplayer. These include Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Tetris Party, Dr. Mario Online Rx, and a bunch that I happen not to own such as Carnival Games, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, Mario Party 8, etc. If you drop down to two players, you add a bunch of fighting games.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Bakkster]

The Sony system looks a lot more flexible than the MS one and so I have more hope that it can work with a broad range of game types. At least it should have buttons. I'm assuming the MS system is going to have to rely on various gimmicks when you want to select something or fire a weapon or whatever.. I don't want to play a game with an imaginary controller any more than I want to play guitar hero with a theremin (as per the video shown a couple of days ago). "Air" instruments suck.

So, that precludes using Kinect to play a racing game, FPS, or Guitar Hero/Rock Band. What if the game is designed to be played with your body? Is a DDR pad the best controller for a dancing game, or would Kinect be better? You are correct that Kinect will probably be terrible when 'bolted-on' to an existing game, but could be excelent for games where the controller is best for that style. Just like a light-saber game on the Wii.

That said, isn't everyone still waiting for the 'Minority Report'-style UI? Isn't Kinect basically that when used on the dashboard? Thus, isn't the Kinect that is railed on as a gimmick actually the same unassailably cool technology we coveted just a few years ago?

It might not be $150-worth of cool, but we did ask for it. Time will tell if it is worth it or not.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[thetoadwarrior]

The fact is their business models suck that's why they're doing it. They're selling their hardware at a loss to a limited group who often have no qualms about pirating software while at the same time the only way they can improve their games is boost the graphics and therefore cost making harder to make money and more likely that people will pirate.

Nintendo on the other is making ass loads of money with profits on everything, hardware included, that they sell and they are reaching a wider market.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Sparckus]

The Other OS feature was available on all the old style (fat) PS3s which only stopped being sold less than a year ago.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[icebraining]

First they came for the nerds, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a nerd...

Seriously now, removing features, even if you don't care about them, it's a bad precedent, and it's a consequence of the absolute control they have over the platform, which is not good for the consumer in the long run.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Sancho]

im *SICK* of the DRM restrictions on pc games

Consoles are DRMd, too. It's just that NORMALLY, they don't get in the way. However, on the PS3, there are some games which DRM their save files so that you can't backup/restore them with the normal process:

http://www.ps3news.com/PlayStation-3/locked-ps3-game-saves-compilation-list-is-now-available/#ixzz0TLGnOjgP

This is pretty bad, since if your PS3 dies, you lose this game data. You can technically move these to another PS3 if both systems are working, by doing some migration hoodoo using a network cable (as opposed to the relatively simple hard disk backups you can do with any other game.)

Of course, since this generation of consoles have a much higher failure rate than previous generations, this is a pretty big deal to me.

There are other issues that add to the annoyance factor. Some games require that you be signed into PSN ( http://psx-scene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64147 ) and plenty of games require the latest firmware to play. Firmware updates can brick your console ( http://gizmodo.com/5021399/playstation-3-firmware-24-bricking-some-ps3s ). While you can easily fix a PC which has been hosed by an update, fixing a console is going to be much harder.

Consoles used to be great for gaming, but I'm too wary of all of these issues to buy one now. My last console was a Wii, though before that I had all of the major consoles of each generation.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Zerth]

This "vastly superior" system is the one that only tracks coarse motions of your limbs? Not even your hands, let alone fingers, just your arms and legs.

I can plug in more sensors and buttons, can you get more limbs?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, you're an idiot... the system was HDMI-ready. It had HDMI tech built-in, the software and hardware provided support for it out of the box. The SYSTEM was READY to use HDMI just as soon as you plugged an HDMI cable into it. Therefore, the PS/3 was HDMI READY all along. Semantic arguments about not being able to USE the functionality because you didn't have a cable for it don't obviatethe basic premise that the SYSTEM was READY to use HDMI the whole time...

-AC

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Second that.

Playing the original Doom in all its 320x200 glory with all enemies and items represented by sprites looks horrible now when you start playing, but after a while of intense playing it is just as immense and scary as more modern graphics would be.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[IndustrialComplex]

No one likes to be the guy with an out-of-date system not getting the full experience of the game.

Except that's exactly who you are as a console gamer. Only instead of turning down the graphics on new games, new games come pre-pegged at 'low'.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[gad_zuki!]

Look at the "How Natal Works" articles. The tracking is excellent. Its tight enough to have you manipulate desktop items in this fashion. You'd have constant feedback because you would see the cursor move on the screen. You would drag that item into the trash. This is really a non-issue.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[timeOday]

Heh, coincidentally I bought my XBox 360 specifically for Forza 3, haven't played any other multi-disc games on it, and assumed all the games work that way.

The fact that non HD models are available should be less of an issue now that you can use USB storage to bring an Arcade to about the same storage that my 20 GB model has. (I haven't tried the external storage so maybe there is a caveat).

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anarchitektur]

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been any new breakthroughs in television technology, so a new console wouldn't provide anything in the way of graphical advancement-- all we can really hope for is the new games would play in the higher, already existing resolutions. This Natal/Kinect stuff is about the closest thing to a "revolutionary" new control scheme, so that's another frontier that a new series of consoles wouldn't address. There's no new, revolutionary (and practical) data storage systems out there, so disc-based media and hard drives are still the best thing that is going to be incorporated into a new console design. So, I'm legitimately curious... what exactly are you hoping to see in the next generation of consoles that has you so anxious to have your current game library become "obsolete" and have to buy a new console + accessories + games, all for the thrill of having a PS4 or XBOX 720 that delivers essentially the same experience?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[gorzek]

Sony in particular isn't interested in dumping a lot of money into R&D for another console anytime soon. The PS3 only became profitable recently and they still have a lot of costs to cover from its development. I'm not sure what kind of shape Microsoft is in as far as developing a new console, but since neither Sony or Nintendo seem to be in the midst of building the next generation, why should MS? They've always been more followers than leaders in this market segment.

Aside from the DVD capacity issues plaguing the 360, the current-generation consoles still have a lot of life in them. I'm not convinced developers have taken full advantage of the PS3's capabilities yet.

Nintendo will probably come out with an HD Wii in the next year or two, and we'll have these little motion-control applications for the 360 and PS3, but I don't see any of the Big Three pushing the home console market into the next generation before at least 2012--more likely 2015.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Xest]

All attempts at flying sucked until the Wright brothers got it right too, thankfully they didn't give up because someone told them everyone elses attempt before sucked, or because someone wrote it was impossible. The same could be said with more modern inventions like the Wii, which worked where previous attempts at motion control failed.

I'm not exactly sure what you're on about in your latter paragraph, why would I want to refer to a sci-fi author whose been deceased for over 9 years for information on modern AI research and development?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flabordec]

What he is saying is that he wants a gaming machine which will last 5 years and cost around $300 USD. That sounds fairly reasonable.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[BigJClark]

In fact, most of the highly-competitive online FPS players I know intentially crank their settings down to tweak more processor cycles for arguably more important things.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[h4rr4r]

I game on both console and PC. I have consoles still in use going back to an NES that I bought in 1987. I have not yet trashed a single one, other than a ps that was put away since the ps2 is also a better ps. The biggest problem I have with the PS3 is that I got one late in the game and lack ps1 and ps2 compatibility.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Klinky]

Keep in mind though that most 360/PS3 "HD" games aren't really HD at all. Many are scaled up from some odd resolutions. Games can also be locked down lower to 30 fps or 60 fields per second. Also in many cases you'll get more fog effects, less anti-aliasing, etc. The graphics are "dumbed down" a lot to make them run smoothly.

Though I do understand the convenience aspect of it.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[h4rr4r]

There are still games coming out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_PlayStation_2_games#2010

PS2 is still one of the best selling systems world wide.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[halltk1983]

I have to disable the networking on my PS3 to get Mercenaries 2 to load. Apparently, if the networking is enabled, and it has any problems talking to their server, or if their server times out, the game hangs and does not load. It's not every time that it hangs for me but it's well over half. I'd consider this limiting.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Kijori]

I've just upgraded my PC, pretty much exactly 5 years after buying it. Never came across a game I couldn't play, although the graphics began to look dated compared to modern hardware - just like with a 5 year old console.

I don't think you have to upgrade a gaming PC any more often than every 5 years - unless you want to.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[binarylarry]

The Xbox (orig or extra 360 crispy) didn't provide a comparable experience to PC's *when it was released*, let alone today.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[MBGMorden]

So... it wasn't shipping HDMI ready before, is what you're saying.

No, listen closely. When a product is "tech"-ready, it means it's CAPABLE of that - not that it includes all equipment needed to do that.

Look at how many car stereos are sold "Satellite Radio Ready" when you still have to add the receiver - they are just capable of controlling it.

Look at how many computers were sold "Windows Vista Ready" when it wasn't out yet, because they were CAPABLE of running it.

Look at how many boats are sold "water-ready" when you still have to add gas before it's going to go anywhere.

Being "ready" doesn't mean that every single thing you need is in the box.

According to all established marketing standards, the PS3 has always been HDMI ready.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Vectormatic]

For PC's upgrades are pretty much mandatory to keep up with the games, with consoles it is 300-400 bucks every five years, and you're set

Not to mention that for a console the procedure is:

1) unpack box
2) hook up console
3) turn on equipment

i probably dont have to explain the hassle of pc upgrades here..

I wholehartedly agree with elrous. PC gaming is superior in a lot of cases, but it also can be a huge headache with upgrades, driver updates, maintaning a windows machine for optimal performance, installing all the crap EA foists on you bundled with that one great game they make etc... In comparison consoles are hugely stable, low maintenance and pretty much fool-proof in terms of operation (hit on-switch, insert game-disc, choose 'play'), cost a lot less compared to keeping a gaming pc up to date in the same period (to the point where console+office/web-pc is cheaper then full-blown gaming pc).

I completely agree that MS needs to get off the wavey-wobly bandwagon and make a new xbox

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[SuperDre]

I'm sorry but over the 1.5 year the I had my PS3 before they took away OtherOS I haven't seen ANY new feature that I needed or used. And as a real Gamer the OtherOS options i actually a must have if you want to play old games that are actually fun and don't only look great, the only problem with OtherOS was the missing RSX support which meant nog having real 3D HW accelerated support, but the community has come a long way with the SPU OpenGL drivers, and even according to Geohot the RSX isn't even blocked, but is just missing the correct drivers (although I don't believe that). I don't have to remind you that the PS3 wasn't presented as a gamesconsole, but as a multimedia console which could do it all, but as a multimedia console it can't even match a $90 multimediabox.. I personally bought the device because of the bluray/mulitmedia and the OtherOS feature and games was a nice extra feature (I have 90+ PS3 games)... It's not the fact you can run linux on it, it's the fact you can run anything you want on it, and the comon linux for the PS3 like yellowdog is perfect for running emulators and old games (and that's why I want the linux, not really as a desktopcomputer replacement, althought the FF browser in linux is way WAY better as the Sony crapbrowser.... I wonder how you would yell and scr

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[halltk1983]

Even though the new consoles are coming with a cable, they're not coming with an HDMI compatible HDTV, so are they still not HDMI ready?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[I(rispee_I(reme]

On the other hand, if the president has been kidnapped by ninjas, I can only hope that we would employ bad enough dudes to rescue him.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Sancho]

Maybe I'm just unimaginative, but I have a hard time envisioning that. Your hands are on the regular controller, and the Kinect tracks...your head and feat? What are they doing? And who is holding the gun prop?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Your.Master]

It's kind of ironic that you should snark about how many fingers you get to use on a PC vs. on a console, on an article about full-body motion control...

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Kitkoan]

Besides, multiple discs aren't really that big of a deal. I agree, it's nice having everything on one disc, but seriously...is it that hard to change the disc out every 10+ hours?

From what I've heard about games like Star Ocean on the 360, its not as much hard then as much of a pain. From the buzz I've heard since it's an open world RPG, different locations are on different discs so switching discs can turn into as short as 30 minutes if you need to go from world to world since you might need to start on a world on disc 1 and then go to one on disc 2, only to turn around and need to go back to the one on disc 1. As more games take the 'open world sandbox' effect with more game information, there is a good chance more games will have to place different area's onto different discs leaving the player to play musical discs then playing the game itself.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flabordec]

The Xbox (orig or extra 360 crispy) didn't provide a comparable experience to PC's *when it was released*, let alone today.

Completely agree. Consider the list of the top 10 games from the last year from Gamerankings (after removing duplicates):

• Super Mario Galaxy 2
• Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
• Mass Effect 2
• Fallout 3: Game of the Year Edition
• Red Dead Redemption
• LittleBigPlanet: Game of the Year Edition
• Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
• Batman: Arkham Asylum
• God of War III
• Braid

Of those games, 8 are on PS3, 6 on Xbox 360 and 5 on PC. Of the games which were released for PC, every single one is available on Xbox 360 and the PC is the only gaming platform without an exclusive. So yeah, it seems the PC does not provide a comparable experience.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Kitkoan]

Natal, or 'Kinect' is different though, unfortunately not many people seem to have the imagination capable of seeing why so far however and just dismiss it as a clone of the Wii's control system.

The fundamental difference with Kinect is it's controllerless nature.

And being a controllerless concept is, at least to me, its biggest failure. It sounds like a great idea until you try it. Without something like a controller or equivalent object to provide a feed back, it leads to more frustration and lack of immersion to me. This is where the Wii had issues with me too. Sure it seems like fun at first but when your supposed to be striking something and you swing through it and the game shows you can't (like trying to deflect a weapon in game) the immersion is gone. There is no way I can smack around a 20 foot anything like nothing. I need at least something to can some vibrations to at least get the 'feel' something happened.Try these webcam games and be honest. How fun are they really? This is pretty much what Kinect is going to be. And I feel that the lack of being able to feel anything is what makes it lacking. At least I need something to feel or hold, even if it is just a controller as it is at least real at lets me feel in some way there is a limitation somewhere even in control options.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't have to upgrade that often. The thing about PC games is they are scalable and can be played an a range of hardware simply by turning up or down details and other settings. It's more likely that you kept upgrading out of desire rather than necessity.

I've played Another World on a 286, Doom on a 386, Quake on a 486 and Unreal on a Pentium. I can attest that having the very latest PC hardware was never a requirement to being able to enjoy gaming.

Hell, my current desktop PC is a an old Pentium 4 with a Geforce 8600 GTS and it STILL plays games just fine.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[slashdotisgay2]

Step 1. Don't be dumbass Windows user who needs firewall, av, and antispyware just to save their dumb ass. Step 2. Only get on Windows when you want to play games. Tada. Simple PC gaming.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[somersault]

Actually most people seem to whine that a Minority Report style UI would probably just tire out your arms really quickly. I do like the system in Iron Man a lot though, hand waving is a lot more suited to 3D than 2D. I guess that's where we're headed in terms of controllers, we still have to do something better about the viewing though.. headsets are probably the easiest way for now, but they aren't exactly mainstream.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how you drooling console fanboys always seem to miss the large number of PC game releases by only focusing on mainstream crap and games that have television commercials.

You'll find hundreds of PC only games at the following sites.

TIGSource
IndieGames
SourceForge

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Khyber]

"I finally had a system that could deliver a comparable experience without having to constantly be upgrading "

I don't know what you're doing wrong but I haven't upgraded my computer since I bought my 9800 GTX+ a few years ago and it runs EVERYTHING.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate splitscreen and I hate sharing a screen. This isn't the 90s, you know. Basically EVERYONE has a PC and internet connection already. Instead of huddling around a television, trying to make out an entire environment in a quarter of a screen with a couple of other people we can now play comfortably with our own screens and our own seating arrangements across a global network with hundreds of other people. Having completely discrete gaming systems connected via a network is the way to go...that is unless you live in the past.

In fact PC gaming costs less because you need a PC and internet connection for many other things anyways. Buying a console is always an extra, unnecessary cost. You don't need expensive bleeding edge PC hardware in order to enjoy hundreds of thousands of PC games.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Spatial]

They don't. Almost all console games run between 1024x600 and 1280x720 with 2x AA.

Not that it's a big deal. If they went with 1920x1080 they'd have to make big sacrifices in detail and framerate which would be dramatically more noticable. It's 2.25 times the number of pixels.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Xest]

Did you actually read my post?

My whole point was because it's controllerless, means it can be used with existing controllers, meaning if holding a controller is your thing, you can still do so, but Kinect can augment that controller based game. In comparison the Wii for example can only be used as it because it ties both your hands up, so you can't use existing classic controllers whilst also enjoy motion sensing.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Spatial]

In comparison consoles are hugely stable, low maintenance and pretty much fool-proof in terms of operation

The irony of posting this in a 360-related thread is somewhat overwhelming.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[slashdotisgay2]

I love my Wii (in all it's hacked glory), but I can't seem to play one game for too long. Twilight Princess, the first Zelda game I ever played minus the gold cartridge one for NES, I was hooked on until I had to escape from the pig riding a pig shooting flaming arrows at the princess' carriage, and for some reason I just cannot get passed it. Other than that, I only play the games for a few hours/days, and then they bore me. Except CoD4, but that's because I don't have live and I'm not updating my PS3.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[slashdotisgay2]

I love my Wii, but I can't stand the stupid motion controls for FPS. I play CoD4 on Wii and I'm at the top of my team 90%+ of the time, but holding the controls really annoys the shit out of me. I have a classic controller pro that I'd love to be able to use. Motion is fun for other stuff, but not FPS, unless you include something like House of the Dead.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

What he is saying is that he wants a gaming machine which will last 5 years, but with outdated graphics for more than half of that time, and cost around $600 USD. That sounds fairly reasonable.

FTFY

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[DragonWriter]

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been any new breakthroughs in television technology, so a new console wouldn't provide anything in the way of graphical advancement

1. "Graphical advancement" doesn't need changes in TV technology; better graphics hardware on the same TV (so same resolution and refresh) will produce better visual experience. GPUs have advanced since the current console generation was introduced.

2. 1080p120 and 1080p240 TVs (and 3D TV technologies) are new, and could be supported by a new console generation. No doubt, many people would point out that those have limited market penetration, but people pointed that out about HDTV when the current generation of consoles were introduced.

3. Graphical advancement isn't the only way consoles could advance. Better onboard networking, better CPU, etc.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[toriver]

It is more sensible to complain about Microsoft removing the last vestige of old DOS from Windows with the removal of debug.exe. Oh, pining for the direct binary edits of yore...

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

actually, that's more for visibility. Even on an already 200fps+ fast game like Quake3 they'll still maximize the picmip to 'flat' the map textures, all just to see you easier and to see their score go higher faster. They also tweak a framerate cap to screw the timer to make their jumps higher.
It's like drugs in professional sports.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Scrameustache]

why would I want to refer to a sci-fi author whose been deceased for over 9 years for information on modern AI research and development?

You wouldn't, 'cause you're a twat, but anyone who isn't would have much to gain from his insight about consumer products.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[icebraining]

Except they haven't removed it from a product you'd already bought. Because they can't, because the Windows platform isn't closed like the PS3.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flabordec]

No, no, no!! He wants a console, not a crappy gaming PC

But I can totally see your point, look at the difference in graphics between the PC and Xbox version of Mass Effect 2. It really is like night and day, and in the PC version you also get DRM totally free. Ha! suck it console fanboys!

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

It is more sensible to complain about Microsoft removing the last vestige of old DOS from Windows with the removal of debug.exe. Oh, pining for the direct binary edits of yore...

That's different. Microsoft hasn't used cryptographic methods to close off the possibility of adding DOS back to Windows. Users can run DOSBox (a PC emulator including high-level-emulated DOS), or you can run FreeDOS in VirtualBox (a generic PC-on-PC emulator). The closest thing to Sony's removal of Other OS would be if Microsoft were to 1. use Software Restriction Policies to block the execution of binaries that lack the Winqual digital signature, 2. block end users from turning off this policy without paying for an developer certificate priced out of reach of individual developers, and 3. not allow Windows to boot if any other operating system is installed on another partition.

In fact, Microsoft still makes debuggers under the "Visual Studio Express" name and distributes them at no charge to users of genuine Windows OS.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[tepples]

The irony of [praising console reliability] in a 360-related thread is somewhat overwhelming.

I think Vectormatic was referring to Xbox 360 Jasper, not the Xenon version that was notorious for heat-related failures.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 was $600 USD or more at release. Xbox 360 is still like $400 USD, and that's for one with a paltry 250GB of storage.

If Mass Effect 2 were a good game, I might care. I especially love how you compare a game that was designed for the limitations of a console and sloppily ported to PC without any updates. It's also nice how they compare in a video in order to hide the graphical shortcomings of the Xbox like low resolution.

Even so, you won't be running any games natively at 1920x1200 or 2560x1600, nor will you be playing anything with high resolution textures on your little Xbox. When you get Crysis level visuals on your toy, then we'll talk. Have fun with your low res, blocky/blurry visuals without fullscene AA.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anarchitektur]

1. Sure, but not enough to really make a big enough impact to warrant an entirely new system. There's always going to be a bottleneck on performance somewhere, so even if they build a new system with the latest and greatest gfx technology, the visual experience is still limited by something as simple as the read speed of the disc drive. Enjoy those shiny graphics as the cutscenes sputter along...


3. Perhaps not, but it's the only way they'd advance that translates into sales. When you see marketing materials, do you see extreme closeup screenshots of the processor? No... you see screenshots of the games in action... the graphical detail. You can add gigabit ethernet to a console, but it isn't going to make online gaming any faster...the bottleneck there is the servers and ISPs, not the user's hardware. The processor is important, but not important enough to warrant a new console.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[IICV]

I simply want to sit down, turn it on, hit play, and be playing. Standardized hardware is awesome for this ability to always be great hardware for the software I purchased.

Me too. That's why I play PC games. I don't want to spend ten minutes waiting for some bullshit to load; when I hit "Play", I want to go from zero to game in less than a minute. Flotilla, for instance, runs as soon as I say go; I can be halfway through an adventure, blowing things up in space Homeworld-style before Grand Theft Auto IV gets around to showing me a menu.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[ashridah]

From the reports i've seen, usb flash is a bit slower to write to, generally, but read speed is roughly the same. (read this as: takes longer to rip, once ripped, is about the same)

This is based on simple benchmarks that the roosterteeth guys did, though, not sure if it was exhaustive, or if there was some problem with their setup/keys/xbox.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[DragonWriter]

Sure, but not enough to really make a big enough impact to warrant an entirely new system. There's always going to be a bottleneck on performance somewhere, so even if they build a new system with the latest and greatest gfx technology, the visual experience is still limited by something as simple as the read speed of the disc drive. Enjoy those shiny graphics as the cutscenes sputter along...

Read speed of disc drives has also improved in the past five years. Also, its quite possible a new generation of console could use a primary game media other than discs.

Perhaps not, but it's the only way they'd advance that translates into sales. When you see marketing materials, do you see extreme closeup screenshots of the processor? No... you see screenshots of the games in action... the graphical detail.

Sure, if you are looking in magazines. If you are looking at in-store demos (which are also marketing material) you see the graphics, sure, but also the actual gameplay. Other improvements besides in the output resolution can impact the quality of the gameplay.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flabordec]

And unless you have a ~$400 USD video card and ~$1,000 USD monitor you won't be playing games at 2560x1600 resolution either

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're fine playing on a 360 which is like a pc that already did the ramping down for you? I appreciate the simplicity of console gaming, but your justifications are really off.

The real reason to favor console gaming is that developers favor it. They only have one configuration to test, which means releases are usually of higher quality, with less bugs, and more exclusives. I still prefer pcs, but it gets harder to keep that flame burning in this marketplace.

Because of the lag in console releases, it is even easier to game with a lower-end pc. If there were a console bump, it wouldn't only hurt console owners, but pc owners as well - as devs would start requiring stronger pcs to game.

It's always been about the software anyhow. Even independent developers have not fully milked the potential of 2d-sprite based games, and the current gen of software has even more room to explore. Maybe if we stand still long enough, truly innovative titles will appear that aren't primarily about showing off what the technology can do...

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

And unless you have a ~$400 USD video card and ~$1,000 USD monitor you won't be playing games at 2560x1600 resolution either

Which I do have.

Funny how you whine about that but not the $400 USD that it costs for an Xbox and the $1,000 that it costs for a decent HDTV.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[DMUTPeregrine]

You can get console-quality graphics by cranking the settings down, or you can pay more money and get PC-quality graphics with a new video card and the settings up.
The PS3 has shown that consoles aren't immune to DRM problems, and the Xbox360 has had some too (assassin's creed 2, for example.)
Finally, while the PC may cost more you also get a perfectly good computer out of it, not just a game console.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Vectormatic]

i owned a first gen 360, and yes it died with RRoD, but all in all i have very little to complain about that. It died near the end of the 3-year extended waranty (wasnt sure if it was just in, or just out of the period), but MS didnt even ask about it, they gave me a shipping label and the next week i had a new (well refurb probably) 360, the only reason it actually took that was because UPS had some trouble finding me at home.

So yes, out of my two 360's, one has already been replaced (my newer elite is fine), but MS handled it quite gracefully, and compared to the headaches i've had with PC hardware, this was relatively minor.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Xest]

"You wouldn't, 'cause you're a twat"

Yes, that's certainly one way to get a point across, unfortunately it just screams "I can't think of any way to refute your point, so I'll just lash out irrationally instead".

Still, if you believe the best place to gain insight about consumer products is from someone who died before Windows XP and the iPod even came out, then well, so be it, there's really no debating with that level of ignorance I suppose. He was a great guy and a great author, but he's hardly in a position to have been able to judge where technology would and wouldn't go with any level of certainty, although with all his predictions the shotgun effect means he's bound to get some right, and he has, but he's certainly not in a position to tell what is and isn't possible today. It's better to pay attention to technologists who actually know what is and isn't possible, and what will and will not be possible with some level of certainty.

I'm intrigued, what component do you feel in Kinect will prevent it working? tracking movements? voice recognition? facial recognition? Or are you simply expecting it to be able to do more than has been advertised? Microsoft are partly to blame here for not having the foresight to realise the assumptions some people would make in not making clear their Milo demo was merely like any other game- the game was responding to pre-scripted actions, not interpreting those actions as real AI as some people mistakenly assumed- perhaps that's the issue here?

Motion tracking, voice recognition, facial recognition have all worked well enough for gaming purposes for quite a while now. Whether it can all be done in one package for a reasonable price will be the real challenge, but as we have no idea how much Kinect will cost yet it's hard to judge that right now but facial recognition and voice recognition can be done with extremely cheap hardware, so it's the capabilities of the motion tracking that will matter, even cheap rudimentary motion tracking should have no problem tracking arms, legs and body movement though which still means all the extremes the Wii can cover are covered equally well for example.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

It can only do true 1080p for Blu-ray videos. All Xbox 360 and PS3 games are 1024x576 internally and just scaled up to 1920x1080. That's why they look like blurred crap.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, you don't know what you are doing and tend to botch the most simple of processes on your PC.

I seldom ever have problems with PC games. 95% of the time they install and run flawlessly without any tinkering.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Scrameustache]

Still, if you believe the best place to gain insight about consumer products is from someone who died before Windows XP and the iPod even came out, then well, so be it, there's really no debating with that level of ignorance I suppose.

Nope, your willful ignorance is not to be debated with. Go away.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Xest]

I don't think I've ever met someone cry quite so hard as you are simply because someone disagreed with them on the internet.

Your life must really suck to get that upset over something so trivial, sucks to be you I guess.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Zymophideth]

1st gen elite still kickin! I have gotten red rings but only when I have it in a tight spot with no air flow, then i give it some air and it fires right up no issue. I barely use my PS3 but it still manages to freeze quite often when I do, i see the same problem on my friend's PS3s.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Scrameustache]

I don't think I've ever met someone cry quite so hard as you [...] Your life must really suck [...] sucks to be you I guess.

You know how I know you're a troll?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[flabordec]

I have no idea where you live, because here in the US, the Xbox 360 is $250 and a 40 inch decent HDTV is no more than $900, while the cheapest 30 inch monitor which supports 2560 x 1600 in newegg is the LG W3000H-Bn at $1,150.

I could buy the Xbox 360 with two games and a decent HDTV for the price you paid for your monitor. But hey! You are able to play Crysis (a two year old mediocre game as far as gaming is concerned) in ultra high resolution!

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Dog-Cow]

A serious gaming platform is a toy. You sound like a pretentious prick. Actually you sound more like someone who wishes he were pretentious. How sad is that?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't say the experience is superior, not until it has been released to the public and there are some games for it. I imagine it would be better for dance games, but for most games, I'd think more traditional controllers would be better. However until it has been properly released then we'll have to hold off on the experience it provides. The technology is certainly different from what anything else provides. I'm certainly interested in where this control mechanism will be taken by games makers.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Dishevel]

Yes it can.

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[Anonymous Coward]

Every day these systems age is another day that PC gaming starts to look more and more attractive to many of us gamers. And I really don't want to go back to PC gaming. But I also don't want to be playing on a console that's viewed more and more as a "toy," rather than a serious gaming platform.

When did you start deluding yourself that videogame consoles are not toys?

Re:I'd rather hear about a next gen console

[cwtrex]

I've been 2 months behind all of the articles for sometime, so forgive the late response as I'm just now catching up.

I would like to point out that if you read Wii forums on the exercise games, that many people are CRYING out for a controllerless way to exercise with something interactive like the Wii. The Xbox 360's Kinect will do exactly that. If the software is programmed competently so that the motion is recorded accurately, the Xbox may have a HUGE hit with those of us attempting to use such devices for weight loss or simply an entertaining way to exercise.

In my opinion, the only exercise games on the Wii that even comes close to recording your movements while giving you a great workout is the EA Sports series. The only reason why those particular games come close is because they attach the Nunchuck controller to one of your thighs so that it can increase the accuracy via a manual hack if you will. The attachment device eventually starts to rip and you have to buy another one. That's the best exercise series the Wii has to offer - a series that forces you to continually purchase a strap because it rips.

Believe me when I say the Xbox 360 has a great chance of ripping the exercise market away from the Wii.

No longer Natal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the project is maturing.

and to think

[poetmatt]

they don't even own the domain name. Yet another fumble by MS.

About Time

[MrTripps]

Natal sounded too babyish.

Re:About Time

[Lord Bitman]

Natal was a name used during development to refer to a project which was not formed enough that a marketing meeting could be held to come up with a name which both sounded good to the marketers and described the product. Choosing a neutral name, such as the name of a city, during development is a good thing which keeps marketing-types out of developers' hair for as long as possible.

Re:About Time

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if you're making a joke or not.

(To those who aren't entirely sure what I mean here,

Natal -
1. Of, relating to, or accompanying birth:
2. Of or associated with the time or place of one's birth

The more you know! ===*)

Re:About Time

[tverbeek]

"Kinect" sounds like something you do with your hot cousin.

Title of this article is wrong...

[Osrin]

Shouldn't it be - "Project Natal Named 'Kinect'"?

Re:Title of this article is wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

Content of article is wrong too.

It should be "wave of your hand."

I thought it was

[Chrisq]

A mountain in Wales

Re:I thought it was

[IBBoard]

I ended up thinking about how it was going to be k'new and so kompatible. Then I realised that was K'nex and not some fad of a new controller system.

I wonder if someone will eventually decide that controllers are 100% unnecessary, thereby forcing loads of console gamers back to proper machines and better graphics on their PCs? :D

Personally, I wouldn't be showing off...

[Lord Bitman]

Personally, I wouldn't be showing off images like this one, which clearly show either input delay or a lack of accurate mapping between human motion and character motion.

If I'm going to buy three iToys taped together, I at least expect that when I raise my arms over my head, the character on-screen will do something resembling the same.

Re:Personally, I wouldn't be showing off...

[elrous0]

Maybe the avatar can't lift his forearms all the way up. ;-)

Re:Personally, I wouldn't be showing off...

[Xest]

It's hard to know what's happening without context of seeing it live or in video, but there are a number of other possibilities too- large scale projection equipment as being used here may have more latency than your typical smaller home displays, but also we don't know how fast the guys arms were moving, if it's latency it could simply be on such a low order that a camera can catch it in a situation like that but a human isn't going to notice or care when using it in person.

It's a bit early to be making assumptions based on a single image that lacks any real context though.

Kinect?

[XxtraLarGe]

I wonder if they are trying to tie this in with their Kin phones by using this name?

Re:Kinect?

[thetoadwarrior]

That would be a nice thing to do for the 2 people in MS marketing that own the phone.

No good

[binarylarry]

They should have called it the "Mii Too."

Another Ballmer fumble and the chair goes wild! No points for team Microsoft!

Hmm..

[tomp1000]

i appreciate the pun for the name kinect (connect and kinetic merged) but i feel its a rather daft game however the controllerless gaming prospect is intriguing, id class it as 1 step closer to fully imersive virtual reality gaming

Re:Hmm..

[arth1]

i appreciate the pun for the name kinect (connect and kinetic merged) but i feel its a rather daft game however the controllerless gaming prospect is intriguing, id class it as 1 step closer to fully imersive virtual reality gaming

No, it has nothing to do with virtual reality. It has to do with reality. You physically swing your arm, not virtually. If you were to take that approach more steps, you'd eventually end up with real life. And the real life dangers too.

Yes, I look forward to virtual reality. Where I get freed from the limitations of my physiology, not subjected to them.

And no, it won't be the first time Microsoft has flopped with hand waving interfaces. Remember the three times touch screens were introduced (and re-introduced) as the best thing since sliced bread? And the gorilla arm syndrome?

Re:Hmm..

[Killer Orca]

And the gorilla arm syndrome?

I'm pretty sure that occurred with the introduction of the Internet, at least in the male population.

Oy.

[Pojut]

Natal was an interesting name. Kinect is just...it's just freakin' lame.

I personally find it funny that while the Kinect hardware involves not touching anything, it's name is, by dictionary defintion, about two things touching each other.

Re:Oy.

[Aladrin]

You can make a 'connection' to something without touching it.

I think they were going for a cross of connect and kinetic, meaning that you connection to the machine through your own movements.

I don't like the name, but at least it makes some sense, when viewed like that.

Re:Oy.

[Pojut]

That's really pushing it. I see where you are coming from, and ::slaps self:: I hadn't thought of that before...but still, that's really pushing it -_-;;

Re:Oy.

[ProppaT]

I think it's supposed to be a play off of the word kinetic, which makes 100% sense. It connects you to the console through motion. I'm not saying it's a great name or anything, but at least it makes a lot of sense...

Re:Oy.

[decipher_saint]

My running theory is that not only did they want to follow Nintendo's input device strategy, they also followed their "cool name to dumb name" strategy.

Re:Oy.

[DrXym]

It's trying to invoke kinetic and connect in one word. Some marketing drone must be celebrating with a line of coke at their awesome ability to combine words.

Re:Oy.

[DragonWriter]

I personally find it funny that while the Kinect hardware involves not touching anything, it's name is, by dictionary defintion, about two things touching each other.

You have a dictionary that defines "kinect"?

I mean, sure, you can view it as a radical misspelling of "connect".

Or it could be shorthand for being separated from a conjoined twin (a "kin-ectomy").

Or, as is actually the case, it could be a non-word designed to serve not as a description, but as a trademark (non-words having no definition, and making, in some respects, "better" trademarks) that suggests "connect" and "kinetic", without either being part of any definition.

"Natal" is anatomical word for butt crack, really

[twisted_pare]

Having taken anatomy in college, I was immeadiately agast when the project was named Natal. I think someone at MS finally used the dictionary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natal_cleft

Accuracy

[accessbob]

So this thing still has just one location for its camera? I don't want to be picky, but you can quite easily get side-ways on to the camera (think the tennis game of the Wii). Hw accurate is the mechanism at picking up hand movements partly, possibly, fully obscured by the body? QAlso, how accurate is it at measuring angluar rotation and wrist movement. Dancing and jumping around games are going to be fine (I guess), but anything that requires close observation of hand and arm movement is going to be a bit limited. Compared to "wand" technology, a single camera is going to be a bit limited in what can be achieved.

Re:Accuracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much. This is what the Eyetoy team saw. A camera interface is just way too limiting.
And after the success of the Wiimote, they went back to the ball-on-stick thing.
Buttons are just way too important when it comes to interface requirements for complex games.

I only wish Microsoft revived their wand thing they had worked on ages ago. They are going to regret it in the long run.
It might sell initially, but the wow-factor will probably wear off pretty quickly for most people, especially on Xbox since it is more developed around online gaming.
They certainly won't capture a large chunk of the Wii market.
Good luck to them...

Re:Accuracy

[Monkeedude1212]

It builds a skeleton of your body, so, I mean, it won't be able to tell if you're holding up any fingers behind your back, but it will be able to determine motion obscured by your own arm better than a wii mote can. Try covering the sensor on a wiimote and see how that does.

Though, really, the Kinect's main feature is full body movement recording without the need for a wand, so I think you missed the point. It will likely be as good as a wand in all the fields you listed except for possibly angular rotation, but the Wii hardly uses that even though it supports it.

Re:Accuracy

[accessbob]

Well I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the quality of the games that get released.

But just thinking aboutthe few Wii games I do play:
In tennis, the angle the ball comes off the raquet depends on wrist action.
In tennis, it is finger movement that released the ball for serving.
In 10 pin bowling, it's the finger on the B key that allows you control of ball release.
In each of these cases, it's going to be interesting to see how the camera version copes.

My guess is that anything that requires a degree of manipulation of virtual objects isn't going to be as effective without a wand. On the other hand, the camera can see the whole (side) of the body at once. Horses for courses I guess, though obviously the best option would be a combination of the techs.

Re:Accuracy

[Monkeedude1212]

Agreed.

Though I think what you'll find is that Kinect will come out with its own tennis, and depending on how good it is, it might be on par with Wii Tennis. I think back to when the Wii first game out and there was nothing but the wii-mote and nun-chuck. Everyone enjoyed the games because you filled in the blanks with your imagination. Now you've got the tennis racket addon, lightsaber addons, and who knows what else for a bunch of single activities, and I think it draws away from the Wii's natural appeal to be imaginitive.

This is where I think Natal/Kinect will be big - it allows you to be even MORE imaginitive because you aren't even limitted to the Wii-mote.

In tennis it'd be tricky to manage the wrist movement, but if they could get past that, the rest would be easy (it'd be able to gauge shoulder motions for increased power and such).

Something like bowling however, I think is PERFECT. Because now you just clench your fist for when you are holding the ball and open your palm when you want to release the ball, and it measures your entire arm motion to determine spin and other items.

Like you said, I think they are both designed for different tasks, and they'll be better at some, but both together would be best.

Re:Accuracy

[ashridah]

I was wondering about that too. That said, the controls for the dashboard/media center stuff that work with Kinect (i keep wanting to type kinetic) seem to be able to notice when someone has their hand palm-up facing the camera. But how fine of a control you can get through that (detecting twists of the wrist)? I'm guessing not fine enough to get something decent like the spin on a bowling ball, or top-spin on a tennis ball :S

Re:Accuracy

[Anonymous Coward]

With bowling a key part is the spin you put on the ball when you release it. How much of this will Kinect be able to infer from the slight movement in your joints when you twist them to put spin on the ball? I'd be very impressed if it can pick up on this reliably and accurately.

EyeToy

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinect is going to be the new way to play. It is going to be completely controller free.

So was EyeToy 11 years ago. I'm sure other Slashdotters will/can find other earlier example.

Re:EyeToy

[Hatta]

Like the Sega Activator?

Re:EyeToy

[LanMan04]

Go back further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Glove

Re:"Natal" is anatomical word for butt crack, real

[Anonymous Coward]

Natal also means christmas in portuguese.

train wreck in progress

[tuffy]

Whatever its technical merits, this just isn't going to work in the market. Game-specific console add-ons tend to work (e.g. balance boards, plastic instruments, etc.) whereas general purpose ones do not. This is because game developers are forced to either target the add-on with specific titles that take advantage of it, which relegates them to a small subset of the console's total base; or they tack-on support which rarely works well and doesn't help sell the add-on.

If Microsoft were serious, they'd release an X-Box 3 with motion-only support so developers can count on it and develop accordingly. But they're not, they won't, and it won't sell.

Re:train wreck in progress

[Anonymous Coward]

Joypad?

Re:train wreck in progress

[MaWeiTao]

That was true when peripherals weren't particularly good and there wasn't an industry wide push in a particular direction. But we've reached a point in gaming where good motion controls are a reality and there is a strong push towards more motion-controlled gaming.

The price point for Sony and Microsoft's devices is the big question. At the right price there will potentially be a big market here meaning that game developers will be very interested in supporting these devices. And of course a library of good games will also be important. But without a doubt now is the ideal time to get these devices to market.

Re:train wreck in progress

[nine-times]

I'm also just more generally unconvinced. Wii has been a stunning success, but in some ways the control is kind of gimmicky. This control scheme is even more gimmicky. Gimmicks only work so well.

And I haven't seen anything recent, but the examples they showed a while back were underwhelming. Oh, you can talk to some creepy computerized AI kid? Great. No way I want to spend my time doing that.

In general, my impression of Microsoft is that they're not terribly good at innovating. They don't understand where things are going, and they don't know how to make their gimmicks practical. Maybe this will be an exception, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re:train wreck in progress

[HalAtWork]

What about the Dual Shock controller? As long as they offer something that significantly improves the experience, it will sell well.

Re:train wreck in progress

[tuffy]

The Dual Shock was eventually made a pack-in, which helped its market penetration considerably. Even then, I can find only one PS1 title that actually required it. For Sony and Microsoft's new motion controllers in today's market, the situation gets more grim. Given multi-million dollar budgets and years of development time needed to bring a so-called "AAA" game to market, I think developers will continue to aim their biggest titles at the widest userbase in the hope of recouping those costs. That'll leave motion control to low-budget, low-risk titles that'll fail to make an impact.

Perhaps, like analog sticks, motion control will get better acceptance once it becomes standard during the next console cycle. But that's hard to imagine right now given 3rd parties' lackluster support for it.

Re:train wreck in progress

[spire3661]

Thats exactly what Kinect is aimed for, Xbox 3. They have the software guys applying pressure to slow hardware, so this is the stop gap to get the pieces in place and buy time for XBox 3, for which the drumbeat is getting steadily louder. They have no more then 2 years before that drumbeat will get too loud to ignore.

Re:train wreck in progress

[malv]

If it works well developers will develop for it. Not to mention that this is Microsoft, a company notorious for "encouraging" developers to adopt their products through incentives. It's not like they cannot bundle the device in with the XBox if they need to.

Anywho, there is very slim chance that the device will flop; Microsoft has enough power to control the demand of the market through advertisement. As we've seen time and time again, shit products can and will sell if marketed properly.

PS2!!!

[nomorecwrd]

I still play with my PS2... on a 850x480 projector.

An incredible good console, way ahead of it's time when it came out, is still selling on par with PS3 and XBOX here in Chile.

Last game played: Guitar Hero Aerosmith
Favorite games: Black (cover ops), God of War II

I guess I will wait until PS4 comes out to start *thinking* about changing my console.



PS.... you can still buy the good games and use *backups* of the games you just want to try and throw away.

Re:PS2!!!

[icebraining]

I still play Abe's Odyssey/Exodus on my PSOne, and Mario Kart on the N64 (which had the best controller ever made, imho)

Re:PS2!!!

[h4rr4r]

Gun is also a great but short game for the PS2. I am basically getting all the games that support progressive scan for ps2 now. They are super cheap, and will become expensive again like ps1 games are now becoming.

Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Verunks]

the first device that see your movements in the future!

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/9/2010/06/6db9eddafa5ee84849d020538f1008d5/original.gif

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/9/2010/06/07757512fe01652a77d524cf51795baf/original.gif

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Pinky's Brain]

That's precious ... from when was this?

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Verunks]

yesterday http://kotaku.com/5562639/get-a-look-at-kinects-star-wars-game

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. You lost me when the link said "Gawker.com".

Bunch of Wankers. Tired of their pathetic excuse for Journalism.

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Jerrei]

The idea of the game was to imitate what happened on screen I believe. Not much better, but yeah.

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't necessarily mean it's fake, just that the avatars are not 1-1 representation of the player's body. The 3D camera only sees a bump map, the distance of front body points from the camera, so it has no idea what the back of the player's body is doing -- can't see the elbow/arm behind his back, for example. But it has to render the back of the body on the screen, so it must make a reasonable guess what the back of the body is doing based on what the front of the body is doing. And sometimes it will look it's reading ahead.

The real question is only whether the whole thing feels right for the player. I would think not, and would think that lack of 1-1 mapping would throw me off (when I press a button and the character fires that's 1 to 1). But all those Wii games surely prove me wrong.

Re:Microsoft has outdone themselves

[Spatial]

Disingenuous. I just watched the video; that part is at the very end and is pretty obviously a cutscene.

That said, the system does appear to have a significant amount of latency. In the excercise video it looked like about one second.

Re:"Natal" is anatomical word for butt crack, real

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of like when Taco Bell called their Chili Cheese Burrito a "Chilito"... look that up on Urban Dictionary...

Re:"Natal" is anatomical word for butt crack, real

[Bieeanda]

I hope you're not using that college degree for anything, because 'natal' is an adjective that pertains to birth and not a specific part of the anatomy.

Obligatory

[Nidi62]

You can browse your dashboard with the wave of you hand.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

Re:Obligatory

[NYMeatball]

You can browse your dashboard with the wave of you hand.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

You don't need to see my controller. We can go about our business.

Indie game selection

[tepples]

When the Xbox 1 came along, I finally had a system that could deliver a comparable experience without having to constantly be upgrading (or worrying about the latest pain-in-the-ass DRM) to keep up. Ditto for the 360 and PS3.

You might be right about major-label games. But I don't see how the original Xbox or any PlayStation console has a selection of independent games comparable to the PC. Due to console development overhead, games from small studios always come to the PC first if they ever come to the consoles. And some kinds of games will never come to Xbox Live Indie Games on Xbox 360 due to XNA limitations.

Re:Indie game selection

[h4rr4r]

Newsflash: You can buy both a computer and a console!

Redneck connect?

[syousef]

Since when did they start speaking redneck in Chicago?

Jury's out

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not that interested in these games, but I can see anything that lets teeny girls dance, do aerobics and play dressups actually taking off.

One question: how do you turn?

[EWAdams]

If you turn your whole body, then you're not looking at the screen any more. If you have to make a specific gesture to turn, then we're back to artificial, rather than natural, interfaces.

The steering wheel movement (left and right hand up and down alternately) makes sense if you're piloting a vehicle, but not if you're walking through a forest.

I look forward to seeing how these issues are resolved.

Re:One question: how do you turn?

[Syberz]

That's a great point, didn't think about turning!

I was left wondering how you'd shoot a weapon. I doubt this thing is precise enough to catch your index finger twitching.

Re:One question: how do you turn?

[EWAdams]

I know from an insider that the Natal device is accurate to within 4 cm. That's nowhere near fine enough to capture a trigger finger. Maybe you have to make your hand into a gun with your index finger as the barrel and your thumb as the hammer, the way we did when we were kids. Then you wiggle your thumb and say, "Choo!"

Re:Booty-syncing

[conureman]

Not enough rehearsal time, apparently.

Huh?

[Hognoxious]

Isn't Kinect like Lego, only not as good?

But wait till you see the new hardware

[nobodyman]

To be fair, I watched a larger clip on Kotaku, and it looks like less of a demo and more of an interpretive dance. I don't think they were necessarily trying to pass it off as gameplay (but if they were, oh god). Totally cringeworthy.

And if you didn't think that this is the year that PS3 overtakes 360 in total units sold, check out the new hardware! That thing is hideous. Leave it to microsoft to come out five years later with a hardware rev that is larger than the original.

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[Blakey Rat]

check out the new hardware! That thing is hideous. Leave it to microsoft to come out five years later with a hardware rev that is larger than the original.

You mean the HD? Would you prefer they come out with a smaller HD than the last-gen? Sure, 250 GB isn't going to blow anybody away, but the first-gen shipped with 20 GB and that's a good-sized bump.

Oh, wait, you're referring to... physical dimensions? Care to explain to me why the holy shit that even slightly matters? Of all the things to criticize the Xbox about, "the hardware is slightly larger" strikes me as by far the dumbest.

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[flabordec]

Well, size might not matter to you, but I am sure it matters to tons of people who prefer small, sexy gadgets. I already thought that the 360 was fairly big and making it bigger is certainly not great design, specially if the article is right and the only thing they are really adding is Wi-Fi (the HDD would be the same physical size).

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[nobodyman]

Well, if we're comparing apples to apples (it plays the same games and whatnot) then I think it's fair to bring the physical design into consideration.

That said - I was wrong: i was seeing it from a kooky angle, and more importantly, without the original 360 for reference. It is notably smaller. I'm hoping that the die-shrinks also mean it will produce less heat -- we'll see. The larger hard drive is a welcome addition, though I'm guessing it's still proprietary.

Anyway - the point is I spoke out of turn. Good on Microsoft for making it smaller. I still think it looks kinda ugly, imho.

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[Blakey Rat]

Well, if we're comparing apples to apples (it plays the same games and whatnot) then I think it's fair to bring the physical design into consideration.

I'm saying:

1) This isn't even remotely close to apples-to-apples in the first place, thus (by your own admission) it's not fair to bring physical design into consideration. The systems have vastly different game selections, completely different motion controllers. The only thing similar is capabilities, but even on the most technical level. (For example, both have download game stores, but the quality of the two stores is vastly different.)

2) Even if you did bring the design into consideration, the *size* of it? WHO THE FUCK CARES? It's "entertainment center size", just like your DVD player, just like your Blu-Ray, just like your receiver, just like your cable box or whatever. It doesn't freakin' matter what size it is, as long as it fits into your entertainment center.

The funny thing is that people used to gripe about the first Xbox for the same reason, and since it was one of the best consoles ever released, I still can't fathom why.

My theory: wags who want to irrationally bash Microsoft bring it up so they have something to argue with when they can't think of anything better.

Anyway, thanks for admitting that you were factually wrong, but that aside, let's skip the criticism on the pointless trivialities and focus on the features of the actual product.

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

The new 360 design is NOT larger than the current design. I was on a team of testers for it, and I can assure you, it's slightly smaller than existing models.

Re:But wait till you see the new hardware

[Jedi Alec]

My theory: wags who want to irrationally bash Microsoft bring it up so they have something to argue with when they can't think of anything better.

Actually, there is a group of people on this planet who pay quite a lot of attention to the shape and size of objects that will be placed in the living room. Outside of Slashdot, there are known as women and some of us share our living rooms with them, hence making the dimensions of a console an issue.

Not good

[U8MyData]

Although the technology is pretty cool, I have to say my first reaction to this name change was disappointment. Is Balmer at it again? I get the kinetic energy tie in, but couldn't they either keep Natal (sounds somewhat exotic) or come up with some thing less questionable? "Do you have Kinect?" What's that, I was tested last month and I have a clean bill of health!" Let me be the first to call "Natal" Xbox gaming injuries Kinectitis. It's like tendonitis but a more serious "experience" or XP for short...

Re:Not good

[Scrameustache]

I have to say my first reaction to this name change was

You're talking about it, generating priceless word-of-mouth advertising: Mission accomplished.

Re:Not good

[U8MyData]

No, Slashdot is talking about it; I am merely contributing to the discussion. ;-)

Wow

[ShogunTux]

So, did Project Natal just become a part of KDE? This is a totally unexpected move from Microsoft. ;)

Re:"Natal" is anatomical word for butt crack, real

[Kenoli]

Wikipedia != dictionary

If that were correct...

[N0Man74]

Your response makes me wonder what you must think "prenatal care" refers to...

Re:If that were correct...

[Dogbertius]

Your response makes me wonder what you must think "prenatal care" refers to...

BOGU: Bend Over, Grease Up!

It's practically considered common courtesy in prisons.

Re:Cue in fucktard sopssa trolling in 3, 2, 1, ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea who Sopssa is, but you Mr. AC are a whole lot worse than whomever you want us to know about.

Posting ac because you are an asshole.

Notthebest

[QuaveringGrape]

Not sure why this went through...

You can browse your dashboard with the wave of you hand."

Am I the only one who noticed the typo? Not to mention the short sentences and matter-of-fact writing style:

Kinect is going to be the new way to play.

It seems like this could have been an article where CmdrTaco could have concisely posted the general idea in his own words and passed on the link.

Marketroid language

[spire3661]

This has the be one of the best examples of a perfect marketroid word. Kin (family) Kinetic (motion) Kinect (connect,social connection, web connection etc,)

Re:Marketroid language

[Spatial]

You forgot one other essential property: causes cringing to the point of physical pain.

The same could be said for watching the e3 presentations earlier today. I've never seen so much fake enthusiasm and transparent marketing bullshit. The whole thing had the most awful tone. It was so bad it became hard to concentrate on evaluating the actual product.

None of the demonstrations were particularly good either. I didn't get the impression that they took full advantage of the system at all; it's impressive to do that kind of movement tracking, and there are lots of innovative ways you could use it in a game. Instead they domonstrated shit minigames that emulate Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Mario Kart.

Today is a good day to be q chiropractor.

[AgentBif]

A really interesting product... But it won't do away with contollers I think... Imagine the RSI (repetitive strain) problems people will develop. The large motion big joints I think will be more vulnerable to motion strain than the small motions needed by contollers, mice, and keyboards.

I imagine people might even develop neck and back problems if they get addicted to some game that involves more full body gestures.

Chiropractors rejoice!

Re:Today is a good day to be q chiropractor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people go to chiropractors rather than a back doctor?

Microsoft copys PS3 Eyetoy game AND concept...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only have Microsoft copied the PS2 Eyetoy, they also seem to have borrowed the name from a PS2 Eyetoy game... Ohdear...

http://i49.tinypic.com/x5y3xg.jpg

DRM impedes selection

[tepples]

DRM on console doesn't impede normal or expected usage of the game

Instead, it impedes selection and flexibility of the games. Console developer agreements are even more restrictive than Apple's iPhone developer agreement, and apart from dedicated "game maker" titles such as RPG Maker and WarioWare DIY, most console games have no end-user mod tools for, say, making your own character or levels.

This sounds like it was named by the Tnuctip

[userw014]

Does this make us Thrint?

How would separate views help Street Fighter?

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Anonymous Coward wrote:

I hate splitscreen and I hate sharing a screen.

In Street Fighter series, what would be the advantage of giving each player his own unique view of the action?

This isn't the 90s, you know. Basically EVERYONE has a PC

Everyone including children, who are prohibited by law from working to earn money to buy their own PC? A lot of families still have fewer PCs than people.

and internet connection already

Internet play requires a separate copy of the game per player. Four copies of a $30 PC game are more expensive than one copy of a $50-$60 console game. That's why the chess-like board game Navia Dratp didn't sell well: you needed two sets to play a game, one for each player, pricing the game out of the reach of many players.

a quarter of a screen

This isn't the case in games like Bomberman series and Smash Bros. series. The screen shows the whole arena, or at least the portion occupied by the players.

we can now play comfortably with our own screens and our own seating arrangements across a global network with hundreds of other people.

Imagine that I'm already visiting somebody's house for a reason unrelated to video games, but then we decide we want to play a video game. Do you expect me to take the bus home just to play the game? Or do you expect me to buy a gaming laptop and carry it everywhere I go in case a LAN party might break out? The path of least resistance in this case is to turn on a console and play a game or to turn on the HTPC and play an HTPC game.

In fact PC gaming costs less because you need a PC and internet connection for many other things anyways.

The "many other things" require only an Intel GMA chipset, a low-end integrated GPU that's good for 2D graphics but doesn't cut it for 3D games. A lot of GMAs out there (e.g. GMA 950) don't even have hardware T&L, making them roughly on par with a Voodoo3 card from a decade ago.

Re:How would separate views help Street Fighter?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Street Fighter series, what would be the advantage of giving each player his own unique view of the action?

I guess you haven't played any of the recent Street Fighter games. You know, the ones in 3D that change angles.

Everyone including children, who are prohibited by law from working to earn money to buy their own PC? A lot of families still have fewer PCs than people.

Yeah, the same children who are prohibited by law from working to earn money to pay for food, clothing, shelter and Xboxes. Anyways, I wasn't aware that 35 year olds, the current average age of gamers, were considered children. Huh, go figure.

Internet play requires a separate copy of the game per player. Four copies of a $30 PC game are more expensive than one copy of a $50-$60 console game. That's why the chess-like board game Navia Dratp didn't sell well: you needed two sets to play a game, one for each player, pricing the game out of the reach of many players.

I don't know how you do it, but I don't generally go around to my friends asking them to chip into a pool so we can all buy video games together. We treat each other like individuals and just buy our own copy of we like the game, regardless of whether we intend to play them together or not.

This isn't the case in games like Bomberman series and Smash Bros. series. The screen shows the whole arena, or at least the portion occupied by the players.

Games like that will play equally as well on a single PC as on a single console.

Imagine that I'm already visiting somebody's house for a reason unrelated to video games, but then we decide we want to play a video game. Do you expect me to take the bus home just to play the game? Or do you expect me to buy a gaming laptop and carry it everywhere I go in case a LAN party might break out? The path of least resistance in this case is to turn on a console and play a game or to turn on the HTPC and play an HTPC game.

I guess you visit your friends for different reasons then I do. When I visit friends, we generally like to jam, go out or get laid or something.

The "many other things" require only an Intel GMA chipset, a low-end integrated GPU that's good for 2D graphics but doesn't cut it for 3D games. A lot of GMAs out there (e.g. GMA 950) don't even have hardware T&L, making them roughly on par with a Voodoo3 card from a decade ago.

Running Windows and watching HD video requires more than a GMA. Even if you are stuck in the past with an antiquated OS and DivX, a GMA will still play a lot of 2D and 3D games perfectly fine.

Also, a cursory look at "Desktop PCs" on Newegg shows the number of PC systems being sold with Intel graphics is 54, Nvidia graphics is 72 and ATI graphics is 78.

Some genres still get the shaft on PC

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most console games are being directly ported to PC nowadays

"Most"? Your mileage may vary, especially based on genres. First-person shooters are ported to PC much more often than, say, four-player party games.

Gamers with multiple gamer children

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In Street Fighter series, what would be the advantage of giving each player his own unique view of the action?

I guess you haven't played any of the recent Street Fighter games. You know, the ones in 3D that change angles.

I have played Tobal No. 1, which is similar. These fighting games change angles but quickly rotate back to facing directly toward a plane containing both characters. They're not behind-the-player-character like boxing in Wii Sports, which does use a split screen.

Yeah, the same children who are prohibited by law from working to earn money to pay for food, clothing, shelter and Xboxes.

A 35-year-old can buy a PC and a copy of the game for himself, but not necessarily separate PCs and copies of the game for himself and his kids. To use the shelter analogy, a game console or gaming HTPC scales like a dining room or kitchen and a desktop PC scales like a bedroom.

I don't generally go around to my friends asking them to chip into a pool so we can all buy video games together.

Experience in my extended family happens to differ from yours: we do trade video game discs back and forth. Even within a household, if one gets Smash Bros. for Christmas and the other gets Mario Kart, both can play both games.

Games like that will play equally as well on a single PC as on a single console.

In the eyes of a major video game publisher, a single PC has a 17-inch monitor, which isn't big enough for two to four 35-year-olds to fit around. Most haven't realized that home theater PCs (PCs connected to TV monitors) exist, even though setting up an HTPC has been dead easy since HDTV became affordable. So the games designed for multiple players sharing the same view of the whole arena are usually either single-console exclusives or cross-console, excluding the PC.